Talkin‘ Politics & Religion Without Killin‘ Each Other

Latest Episodes:

Andrew Heaton: Tribalism Is Dumb – Why We're Hardwired for Division & How to Cope Jun 10, 2025

Show notes

In this insightful and often humorous episode, host Corey Nathan welcomes political satirist, author, and podcast host Andrew Heaton for a wide-ranging conversation about his latest book, Tribalism Is Dumb. Heaton, known for his podcast The Political Orphanage, brings his signature blend of wit, intellect, and candor to explore why politics has become so viciously tribal—and how we can fix it. Drawing from personal stories, deep research, and evolutionary psychology, Heaton discusses the roots of human division, the impact of media and technology, and the path to a more thoughtful public discourse.

What We Discuss:

Why tribalism is hardwired into human nature—and how it gets misapplied in modern politics
How Heaton’s upbringing influenced his commitment to civility and intellectual rigor
The role of media, social media, and political leadership in fostering division
Practical tools for having productive, respectful political conversations
What we can do—personally and societally—to resist toxic partisanship

Episode Highlights:

[00:01:00] Intro to Andrew Heaton and his new book
[00:02:30] The story behind the dedication to Heaton’s father
[00:06:45] Heaton’s early political influences
[00:10:15] How Heaton preps for his many podcasts
[00:21:00] The evolutionary roots of tribalism
[00:34:00] Protestant vs. Catholic soccer rivalry in Scotland
[00:36:30] What changed in the last few decades
[00:55:00] Tools for better political conversations

Featured Quotes:

"There are lots of people that we share this country with that are good and intelligent people. The fact that we disagree with them is not a negation of their humanity." – Andrew Heaton
"The need for an enemy precipitates the existence of the enemy." – Andrew Heaton
"Tribalism is not just about community. It’s about the reflexive urge to find a ‘them’ to define the ‘us.’" – Andrew Heaton
"I just try to remember: we’re not arguing about whether you're a good person. I already believe you are." – Andrew Heaton

Resources Mentioned:

The Political Orphanage podcast: https://mightyheaton.com/the-political-orphanage
Tribalism Is Dumb by Andrew Heaton: https://mightyheaton.com/books
Bowling Alone by Robert Putnam: https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Bowling-Alone/Robert-D-Putnam/9780743203043
How to Have Impossible Conversations by Peter Boghossian: https://www.hachettebookgroup.com/titles/peter-boghossian/how-to-have-impossible-conversations/9780738285344/

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Dialogue Killers Revealed: Beat Ad Hominem & Proxies to Reclaim Civil Political Talk Jun 07, 2025

Show notes

In this edition, host Corey Nathan dives into two behaviors that shut down meaningful dialogue before it even starts: ad hominem attacks and treating individuals as proxies for groups. Drawing from real-life interactions and candid personal stories, Corey illustrates why civil discourse matters now more than ever.

What Is Discussed:

Why personal attacks destroy productive dialogue
How assuming people represent an entire group harms mutual understanding
Strategies for better conversations: passive, defensive, and proactive
Why labels and assumptions often miss the mark
The power of treating others as individuals with unique stories

Episode Highlights:

1:00 – Defining the two dialogue killers: ad hominem and proxy labeling
2:00 – A local mayor faces national-level hostility in small-town politics
4:00 – A neighborly disagreement about family farms shows how it can be done right
5:00 – Corey’s impassioned reaction to toxic comments and attacks
10:00 – When people are reduced to stand-ins for political ideologies
14:00 – Facebook comments spiral as users resort to vilifying each other
19:00 – Setting realistic expectations when engaging across divides
27:00 – “I will not defend positions I don’t hold”—drawing healthy boundaries
30:00 – Lessons from the fight for marriage equality: changing hearts through human connection
33:00 – Passive, defensive, and proactive strategies to communicate better

Featured Quotes:

“People are people—not proxies...”
“I will not defend positions that I don’t hold.”
“You’re not talking to ‘them,’ you’re talking to me.”
“Go talk some politics and religion with gentleness and respect.”

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Bishop Mary D. Glasspool, Trailblazing Leader in the Episcopal Church, on Challenging Tradition and Navigating Faith Jun 03, 2025

Show notes

In this inspiring episode, host Corey Nathan welcomes Bishop Mary D. Glasspool, a pioneering leader in the Episcopal Church and the first openly lesbian woman to be consecrated as a bishop in the Anglican Communion. Since 2016, she has served as Assistant Bishop in the Episcopal Diocese of New York. Bishop Mary shares her personal journey of faith, identity, leadership, and inclusion, offering insights into navigating the intersections of religion, politics, and justice.

What We Discuss:

Bishop Mary’s journey as a trailblazer in the Episcopal Church
How her faith and identity evolved in tandem
What the Philadelphia 11 meant to her and the church
Navigating hard conversations across deep differences
What gives her hope for the future of the church and the world

Episode Highlights:

01:00 – Corey introduces Bishop Mary and her groundbreaking role
06:00 – Growing up in a multigenerational Episcopal family
17:00 – The impact of the Philadelphia 11 and her call to ministry
27:00 – Coming out and confronting institutional theology
34:00 – Stories of ministry, mentorship, and pioneering women
43:00 – Navigating political division in local churches
50:00 – Her retirement plans and what’s next
1:02:00 – On non-binary thinking, listening deeply, and collaboration

Featured Quotes:

“We can do this. It is possible to talk politics and religion without killing each other.”
“The best way to be ecumenical is to be deeply rooted and grounded in your own faith.”
“Diversity is a strength… It can help us grow and become stronger as human beings.”
“We need to allow for silence. We need to listen.”

Resources Mentioned:

The Philadelphia Eleven Documentary: https://www.philadelphiaelevenfilm.com
The Episcopal Church: https://www.episcopalchurch.org

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Reasoned Humility: Pastor David Hegg on Theology, Differences, and Engaging Culture May 29, 2025

Show notes

In this episode, host Corey Nathan is joined by Pastor David Hegg, Senior Pastor at Grace Baptist Church in Santa Clarita, CA. With decades of experience, a master’s in theology, and a doctorate in preaching, Pastor Hegg shares his unique journey into ministry, his thoughts on biblical teaching, and how Christians can faithfully navigate today’s cultural and political landscape.

What We Discuss:

How Pastor Hegg's early struggles shaped his path in ministry
The importance of preaching Scripture as it was originally written
A biblical approach to Christian leadership and cultural engagement
Insights into the role of conscience in political decision-making
Why “reasoned humility” is essential for healthy public discourse

Episode Highlights:

00:04:00 – From mowing the church lawn to pastoring a large congregation
00:10:00 – Disputes over doctrine: seminary conflict and church governance
00:19:00 – Faith vs. science: Genesis, creationism, and biblical authority
00:25:00 – Why many pastors feel exhausted, and how to sustain ministry
00:30:00 – Handling political pressure and cultural division during COVID
00:36:00 – Engaging LGBTQ+ individuals with truth and grace
00:43:00 – What it means to “withdraw” from politics without disengaging
00:54:00 – Preview of Pastor Hegg’s upcoming books and a theological novel

Featured Quotes:

“What God has for us is always best for us.” – Pastor David Hegg
“We must hold our beliefs with reasoned humility.”
“You can’t come to any text without a framework, but you must be willing to reform that framework based on Scripture.”
“We don’t throw darts—we meet people where they are and walk with them.”

Resources Mentioned:

Grace Baptist Church: gracebaptist.org
The Obedience Option: www.amazon.com/s?k=The+Obedience+Option+David+Hegg
The Well: https://www.amazon.com/s?k=The+Well+David+Hegg
Mind & Cosmos by Thomas Nagel: www.goodreads.com/book/show/13690432-mind-cosmos

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(ICYMI) Sussing out Excellent Journalism from All the Crap with Julie Mason, SiriusXM Radio Host and Former White House Reporter May 27, 2025

Show notes

“You’ve got to be willing to kick your sources right in the balls if necessary, even if they’re your friends.”

Julie Mason came up the ranks at regional newspapers before becoming a White House reporter. On her SiriusXM radio show, you can tell how much she loves and champions good reporters and reveres excellent journalism. And that's one of the many reasons we love Julie Mason! So we're re-booting our most recent conversation with Julie from earlier this year...

In this episode, host Corey Nathan reconnects with Julie Mason, renowned journalist and host of The Julie Mason Show on SiriusXM’s POTUS channel. Julie brings decades of experience in journalism, spanning local, state, and national politics, and shares her sharp insights on the evolving media landscape, political discourse, and the state of journalism today.

What We Discuss:

The evolving role of journalists in a polarized media environment.

How to navigate news consumption and discern credible sources.

Insights into the challenges of covering politicians and divisive topics.

The growing intersection between social media platforms and journalism.

Why re-engaging with quality news content is critical to democracy.

Mike Pence: The King of Hilarity... Wait. WHAT?!?! No, really

Episode Highlights:

[00:00:00] – Corey welcomes Julie back to the podcast after four years and reflects on her journey in journalism, from print reporting to hosting her SiriusXM show.

[00:09:00] – Julie explains how she transitioned from print to radio and why she took the leap into the unfamiliar world of broadcasting.

[00:20:00] – The challenges of modern journalism: Julie addresses disinformation, lies in politics, and why reporters must focus on stories that truly impact people’s lives.

[00:27:00] – A discussion on how journalism is evolving to meet the needs of a fatigued audience, from long-form storytelling to true crime podcasts.

[00:40:00] – Julie emphasizes the importance of journalists remaining stoic and professional, especially during major historical events like January 6th.

[00:47:00] – Corey and Julie explore ways to have constructive conversations with people across ideological divides, drawing inspiration from bipartisan efforts in Congress.

[00:55:00] – Julie’s call to action: Why supporting quality journalism through subscriptions and active engagement matters more than ever.

Featured Quotes:

“You’ve got to be willing to kick your sources right in the balls if necessary, even if they’re your friends.”
“Politician lied is not really the story—focus on what impacts people’s lives.”
“To have meaningful conversations, you have to put down your weapons and see the humanity in the other person.”

Resources Mentioned:

The Julie Mason Show on SiriusXM’s POTUS Channel – www.siriusxm.com/channels/potus-politics

Substack Recommendations:

Dirty John Podcast – Listen Here

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ICYMI - Wajahat Ali: Navigating Chaos and Divisiveness with Hope and Humanity May 23, 2025

Show notes

A lot's happened already this year. So it's worth re-setting this conversation with friend of the pod, Wajahat Ali, from earlier this year...

When there's such chaos amd divisiveness all around us, what can we do to cultivate a sense of hope and humanity?

In this episode, we welcome back Wajahat Ali, celebrated writer, editor of The Left Hook Substack, co-host of Democracy-ish Podcast, and author. Known for his humor and insight, Waj brings his unique perspective as a father, storyteller, and political commentator to discuss navigating the tumultuous political and social landscape of 2025. Together, Corey and Wajahat dive deep into themes of decency, empathy, and how to cultivate hope amid chaos.

Episode Highlights:

[00:02:00] Wajahat muses about earning a "Five Timer Club" t-shirt.
[00:04:00] Discussion on the California wildfires and the politicization of natural disasters.
[00:06:00] Wajahat analyzes the blame game targeting DEI initiatives in crisis situations.
[00:09:00] Corey and Wajahat explore the role of empathy and decency in politics.
[00:11:00] Wajahat reflects on hope during his daughter’s cancer journey and how that translates to political resilience.
[00:16:00] Star Wars analogy: How everyday people (the "Ewoks") can fight against authoritarianism.
[00:22:00] A candid discussion on America's historical resistance to progress and how that impacts the current political climate.
[00:35:00] The importance of rest and joy in sustaining activism and engagement.
[00:54:00] Wajahat’s advice on engaging with people across ideological divides—when to plant seeds of change and when to walk away.

Featured Quotes:

"Hope is optimism with action. It's believing in a better story but doing your part to get there." – Wajahat Ali
"You can't save everyone. The caravan must move forward, but the doors remain open." – Wajahat Ali
"We could have been so much better, and we chose this." – Wajahat Ali
"One conversation with one person can create a ripple effect. Even a one-degree shift can matter." – Corey Nathan

How to find Waj:

The Left Hook | https://thelefthook.substack.com/
Democracy-ish | https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/democracy-ish/id1473376303
Bluesky | https://bsky.app/profile/wajali.bsky.social

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Standing with Ukraine: Alexander Vindman on U.S. Foreign Policy, Putin’s Threat, and the Folly of Trumpism May 19, 2025

Show notes

In this episode, we welcome back Dr. Alexander Vindman—retired U.S. Army Lieutenant Colonel and former Director for European Affairs on the White House National Security Council. Known for his key role in the first Trump impeachment and his deep expertise in Eastern European affairs, Vindman returns to discuss his latest book, The Folly of Realism: How the West Deceived Itself About Russia and Betrayed Ukraine. The conversation dives into the geopolitical stakes of the ongoing war in Ukraine, U.S. foreign policy across administrations, and the importance of civic responsibility in the face of authoritarianism.

What We Discuss:

Why U.S. administrations consistently misunderstood Russia and Ukraine.
The concept of “Neo-Idealism” and its value in foreign policy.
How family history and personal experience shaped Vindman’s worldview.
The political realities facing Ukraine and the U.S. in a post-Trump world.
The role of values in sustaining democratic institutions.

Episode Highlights:

[00:01:00] Introduction to Alexander Vindman and his background.
[00:04:30] Alex's twin brother Eugene Vindman’s transition to Congress and bipartisan cooperation.
[00:17:00] Reconnecting with family in Ukraine and the impact of history.
[00:25:00] The thousand-year struggle for Ukrainian sovereignty.
[00:38:00] Why equating Russia with Cold War power is misguided.
[00:44:30] Vindman defines “Neo-Idealism” and its global implications.
[01:00:00] The danger of Trumpism and dismantling of democratic norms.
[01:07:00] How we can engage across political and cultural divides.

Featured Quotes:

“Russia, absent Ukraine, ceases to be an empire. With Ukraine, it becomes one.” – Alexander Vindman
“Neo-Idealism is about tethering our interests to our values and committing to them over the long term.” – Alexander Vindman
“We succumbed to misplaced hopes and fears. We thought if we treated Russia as a partner, it would behave like one.” – Alexander Vindman
“You can find common ground by talking about family. That’s where our shared concerns lie.” – Alexander Vindman

Resources Mentioned:

The Folly of Realism – www.hachettebookgroup.com/titles/alexander-vindman/the-folly-of-realism/9781541705043
Alexander Vindman’s Substack – www.avindman.com
Alexander Vindman on Bluesky - @avindman.bsky.social

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Stop Toxic Partisanship (Doing Our Part): Finding Humanity in Polarized Politics & Religion May 16, 2025

Show notes

In this episode, host Corey Nathan reflects on a pivotal shift in direction for the podcast. The solo episodes of “Talkin’ Politics & Religion Without Killin’ Each Other” will be moving toward a more practical focus—answering the question of how we engage in tough conversations about politics and religion in more productive, neighborly, human ways. Drawing from years of interviews, personal experiences, and lively social media debates, Corey opens up about the challenges and tools needed to bridge our deepest divides.

What's Discussed:

Why Corey is focusing more on how we talk about politics and religion, not just what we talk about
The role of "epistemic bubbles" and "informational universes" in shaping our perspectives
Tools and strategies for engaging across political and religious differences
How grace, curiosity, and relationship-building can change the tone of even the toughest conversations
Real-life examples from Corey’s online and offline experiences—including some Facebook showdowns!

Episode Highlights:

[00:02:00] Corey announces a new focus on practical tools for civil dialogue
[00:06:00] The concept of “epistemic ecosystems” and how they isolate us
[00:10:00] Why you can’t “convert” someone in one conversation—but you can plant seeds
[00:13:00] Mike Madrid: “Effective communication across bubbles requires more than simply correcting facts...”
[00:17:00] A quote from the Constitution sparks a wild Facebook debate
[00:24:00] From “literate idiots” to neighbors with nuance—Corey breaks down who shows up online
[00:32:00] How to actively listen, lead with curiosity, and find the serious point in a noisy thread
[00:45:00] Tips on when to pick your spot, take it offline, or simply walk away

Featured Quotes:

“Sometimes you can’t teach someone a new language—but you can give them a few new words.”
“Give yourself grace. You’re going to mess it up. But keep showing up.”
“Effective communication across bubbles requires more than simply correcting facts. It demands engaging underlying values and concerns.”

Resources Mentioned:

Mike Madrid’s Substack - The Great Transformation: greattransformation.substack.com
Tangle News: www.readtangle.com
Ground News: ground.news
Village SquareCast: podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/village-squarecast/id1520059234

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Serene Jones on Grace, Grit, and God: How Faith Can Heal a Fractured Democracy May 13, 2025

Show notes

In this episode, host Corey Nathan speaks with Rev. Dr. Serene Jones, President of Union Theological Seminary. As the first woman to lead the historic 180-year-old institution, Dr. Jones brings deep insight to the intersection of theology, justice, and public life. Together, they explore how Christian faith can guide us through trauma, division, and democracy’s challenges, while sharing stories of growing up in faith and creating space for conversations across political and religious divides.

What We Discuss:

How Serene Jones’ upbringing shaped her theological lens
What theology has to do with democracy and justice
Why questions are a sign of faith, not doubt
The importance of building bridges, even when no one’s building from the other side
How seminaries are evolving to meet the needs of a changing world

Episode Highlights:

[00:03:00] A unique faith upbringing in the Disciples of Christ tradition
[00:07:00] Church as a place of learning about democracy, justice, and real life
[00:13:00] The message of Micah 4 and how it resonates with global conflict today
[00:27:00] The role of theology in shaping public ethics and spiritual resilience
[00:39:00] Navigating campus dialogue during protests and unrest
[00:44:00] Three calls for progressive communities in red states
[00:51:00] Addressing collective and generational trauma through faith
[00:53:00] Asking: What would Jesus do—really?

Featured Quotes:

“Faith that’s not equipped to deal with the big questions of life is not a faith worth its weight.”
“If we are not building bridges, there’s no one there to catch people when they fall.”
“Theology is not just an abstraction. It’s an action. It’s a way of living in the world.”
“The crisis in our nation is a massive spiritual crisis—for all of us.”

Resources Mentioned:
Union Theological Seminary – utsnyc.edu
Call It Grace by Serene Jones – www.penguinrandomhouse.com/authors/2146640/serene-jones/

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From the Boardroom to Town Hall: Leading with Civility with Mayor Lisa Willey Knierim May 09, 2025

Show notes

In this episode, host Corey Nathan reconnects with Lisa Willey Knierim—Mayor of Cranbury Township, NJ, President of 1880 Hospitality, and high school pal. Lisa shares powerful insights into the realities of small-town governance, the impact of state housing mandates, and the ripple effects of national political discourse. From boardrooms to township meetings, she brings candor, civility, and a healthy dose of humor to the conversation.

What We Discuss:

How national political polarization affects small-town governments.
What the Mount Laurel Doctrine means for affordable housing in NJ.
The value of listening and transparency in political leadership.
How Six Sigma strategies works in business—and public service.
Real-world consequences of recent U.S. tariff policy from a global trade professional.

Episode Highlights:

[00:03:00] The structure of Cranbury’s local government and Lisa’s role as mayor
[00:07:00] Breaking down the affordable housing mandate and land challenges
[00:14:00] How partisan behavior has filtered into local meetings
[00:24:00] Six Sigma in practice: business problem-solving that works
[00:27:00] Why abrupt tariff policy changes hurt American businesses
[00:34:00] Lisa’s close election win and continued work with her predecessor
[00:45:00] Remembering the best of our communities post-pandemic
[00:53:00] Lisa’s campaign to bring back civility in politics

Featured Quotes:

“At the local level, I wish I didn’t even have to declare my party. It feels absolutely irrelevant.” – Lisa Willey Knierim

“You’ve got to create a vanilla ice cream environment—not too spicy. Be compassionate, be practical, be human.”

“National-level problems shouldn’t be light-switch decisions.”

“It’s not that I can’t solve the problem. But I can listen. That’s halfway there.”

Resources Mentioned:

Six Sigma Black Belt Certification: asq.org/cert/six-sigma-black-belt
Cranbury Township Info: www.cranburytownship.org/
Lisa Willey Knierim Campaign Page: www.facebook.com/LisaKnierimTC22

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