Show notes
Alfred Hitchcock’s first American film—part love story, part ghost story, part courtroom melodrama—centers on a poor, timid young woman who falls in love with wealthy aristocrat Maxim de Winter, a widower tortured over the death of his first wife. When the young woman becomes the second Mrs. De Winter and moves into Maxim’s estate, she finds her predecessor’s initials stamped all over the house, and its staff in thrall to her beautiful, vibrant memory. But at the heart of the first Mrs. De Winter’s legacy lies a rot, and just what that rot represents in the film—be it the oppressions of vitality and ambition, the wages of class mobility, the unruly desires of sexuality, or the latent evidence of civilizational decline—is our subject today. Wes & Erin discuss the 1940 Best Picture winner “Rebecca,” starring Joan Fontaine and Laurence Olivier. Upcoming Episodes: Emily Dickinson, Rosemary’s Baby. Pre-order Erin’s forthcoming book “Avail” here: http://subtextpodcast.com/avail For bonus content, become a paid subscriber at Patreon or directly on the Apple Podcasts app. Patreon subscribers also get early access to ad-free regular episodes. Also from Wes: Curtain Times, a calendar of Boston theatre, classical, talks and readings. Follow:Twitter | Facebook | Website Transcript 0:20 Erin: or patreon.com/subtextpodcast. Alfred Hitchcock's first American film, part love story, part ghost story, part courtroom melodrama, centers on a poor, timid young woman who falls in love with wealthy aristocrat Maxim de Winter, a widower tortured over the death of his first wife. When the young woman becomes the second Mrs. De Winter and moves into Maxim's estate, she finds her predecessor's initials stamped all over the house and its staff still enthralled to her beautiful, vibrant memory. But at the heart of the first Mrs. De Winters legacy lies a rot. And just what that rot represents in the film, be it the oppressions of vitality and ambition, the wages of class mobility, the unruly desires of sexuality, or the latent evidence of civilizational decline, is our subject today. We're Talking about the 1940 Best Picture winner, Rebecca, starring Joan Fontaine and Laurence Olivier. This is Erin O'Luanaigh. This is Wes Alwan, and you're listening to Subtext. So, Wes, a couple weeks ago, the great Joan Plowright passed away. I don't know if you know who she was. I feel like no one in the news media knew who she was because it wasn't very widely cover. 1:40 Wes: I don't know about her. 1:41 Erin: Well, she was Laurence Olivier's widow. And it just caused me to reflect on the kind of strange coincidence that we had decided to do this film or that I had suggested it because in a way you might say that Joan Fontaine and Joan Plowright sharing that first name, it sort of indicates that there's something of the second Mrs. De Winter, maybe about Joan Plowright. She's not a second wife, she was a third wife, but she followed his 20 year marriage to Vivien Leigh, which was extremely fraught and extremely volatile and one of the great love stories probably of the 20th century, but a difficult marriage to follow. And Vivien Leigh didn't pass away before his marriage, so there was a divorce. But I was just thinking about that and about the casting stories behind this film, about the fact that Olivier, who was at that point having an affair with Vivien Leigh, wanted her to play the Joan Fontaine part. So there was a lot of tension on the set, which Resulted in Joan Fontaine, I think, feeling really as ostracized and as unwanted as she is in the film. It's funny because to me it seems obvious and I'm sure other people have said that Vivien Leigh would have been totally wrong for the part of the second Mrs. De Winter, because she was Rebecca. You know, she was the one that everybody thought was the most beautiful, most incredible woman in the world. Right. So that story and how that affected the environment of the movie really interests me. A lot of behind the scenes facts about this film really interest me, like Selznick's involvement. But just thinking about this real life phenomenon of Second Wives and how they may or may not line up with actual things going on in the filmmakers own lives just interested me. But had you seen this film before I suggested it? 3:28 Wes: No, no, I had never seen this. 3:30 Erin: Yeah, you know, it's Hitchcock's first film that he made in America, which is funny because it's set in England and you know, a lot of battles with Selznick and a lot of battles with the studio over some censorship issues, which will probably get. They'll probably come up as we go through the plot. But otherwise, I think, I mean, it's a bit. It's a strange film. You know, it has these three genres, really, that it's invoking at various points and maybe some dropped threads. I don't know, we can talk about that. But it's kind of fascinating. I think it's one of his most enjoyable films, even for all of its flaws and the atmosphere and the. Especially the performance by Judith Anderson as Mrs. Danvers. Classic. I forgot to send you the Carol Burnett. The Carol Burnett's gonna be good. Yeah, I think it's called Rebecky. Everyone's always going, Rebecky. Yeah. And I think, you know, Carol Burnett's the Other Woman. 4:24 Wes: Oh, yeah. 4:26 Erin: This is so bad. I can't believe it. I adore her. Anyway, she, you know, they're like having dinner. 4:31 Wes: I want to say there's an M M sound in there. Not Martha, but. 4:35 Erin: Oh, I'm good. This is so painful for me. But anyway, they're having dinner at the big table at one point and there's, you know, like a serving dish and somebody pulls the lid off the platter and it's Mrs. Danvers head, you know, in the middle, telling Carol Burnett that she should die or whatever. Anyway, really, really good spinoff. But yeah, this definitely isn't Hitchcock's best film. It is probably, though, in my top five. I want to say, like, what's your favorite Hitchcock? 5:06 Wes: I guess I'd have to say Vertigo. It's not a very interesting choice, but I don't know. I think you know Hitchcock way better than I do, so you have a lot more to choose from. 5:17 Erin: I've seen every Hitchcock film I made a point to do, so. 5:21 Wes: So this is in your top five films, or top five Hitchcock? 5:25 Erin: No, no, no. Top five Hitchcock. You know, and it's not. It's not like, probably in his best five in terms or top five in terms of best of his, but it's, you know, favorite implies a little bit of partisanship there on my part. You know, I just. I like it. It was one of the first, I think I had ever seen first Hitchcock's I'd ever seen. And I remember realizing at, like, 10 or 11 years old that, like, Joan Fontaine's character doesn't have a name, but the title is a name, you know? 5:54 Wes: Yeah. It took me while to figure out that she wasn't Rebecca. 6:00 Erin: Right. 6:01 Wes: Yeah. This is confusing. She's just Mrs. De Winter through the whole thing, which I had to abbreviate in my notes as MDW, so she just became MDW and Mrs. Danvers became MD yeah, the. 6:21 Erin: The Love Doctor is in. 6:23 Wes: Yeah. Seriously. 6:24 Erin: No, I looked up. I looked up the name Rebecca last night for the first time, and it means to tie or to bind, so I thought that was suggestive. 6:34 Wes: Is it of Hebrew origin? 6:36 Erin: Mm, yeah. 6:38 Wes: Yeah. 6:38 Erin: But it's definitely a. You know, it has a kind of romantic, sexy kind of, I think, valence to it. I don't know. I never thought about that with that name before. Too closely. But I was just thinking quite a bit about that name and what it might suggest. Just to the ear, Rebecca. Three syllable. 6:59 Wes: You know, a nice embroidered monogram. That's just an R is much more appealing than, say, an L. Yes, that's right. Or Larissa. 7:10 Erin: That's right. 7:11 Wes: It wouldn't work as well. 7:12 Erin: Well, and of course, the single R is, you know, I can't look at that, even though sometimes it's also with the. The D E and the capital W. I can't look at an R and not think Regina. Regina. You know, the monarchical cipher. 7:27 Wes: Oh, I see. 7:28 Erin: Yeah. 7:28 Wes: Okay. Right. 7:30 Erin: So she's, you know, she's the queen of the castle. She's the queen of Manderley. Manderley. Which is itself kind of a strange name. You know, it sounds like a hotel resort in, like, Cancun or something. You know, like, there's some. 7:43 Wes: I mean, Cancun that's interesting. 7:44 Erin: Yeah, there's some. Yeah, some tropical location. There's something slightly tropical, right? 7:51 Wes: That's right, yeah. I mean, there'd be a casino in there and Manderley, actually. Well, there is in Vegas. What's it called? Mandalay Bay, actually. 8:02 Erin: There you go. Maybe that's why I'm thinking that. Not that Vegas is tropical. 8:09 Wes: I once saw, like, imitation Pink Floyd concert there. 8:13 Erin: Oh, nice. 8:15 Wes: Anyway, so he lives in a jaw dropping mansion and she's a bit like Cinderella. And she's compared to Cinderella, I think by the Laceys at one point. But, you know, we start out with her in this very funny, vain and envious stepmother, Van Hopper. Although she kind of becomes a witch by the end of the first act when she kind of curses Rebecca, she suggests that Maxim is marrying her because they have already slept together. She can't be a great lady. He's marrying her out of desperation. So there's a very fairy tale quality to this. It's not just a Vegas casino or a resort in Cancun. 9:01 Erin: It's Monte Carlo. 9:04 Wes: Yeah, exactly. There you go. Well, where is Manderley? 9:08 Erin: It's in Cornwall, I think. 9:10 Wes: Yeah. Okay. 9:11 Erin: Yeah. 9:11 Wes: All right. Making sure I'm not. 9:13 Erin: Oh, I'm sorry. No, no, no. I thought you meant. Yeah, the opener. When they're. When they're in Monty. I adore Monty. 9:17 Wes: Right. She meets a knight in shining armor, except his armor is actually a little bit. Quite a bit blemished because, well, he's a knight in shining army armor who, you know, you save from suicide on your first meeting. That's what happens. Right. Am I interpreting that correctly? 9:40 Erin: Mm. 9:41 Wes: So he's a depressed knight in shining armor. 9:44 Erin: Yeah. 9:44 Wes: Which is an interesting twist. 9:47 Erin: And he's a knight in shining armor who also treats her like garbage, which is an interesting twist, too. 9:52 Wes: And he does, which seems to be. The more of these older movies I watch, it seems to be their idea of the bad boy. Like the guy who gets women. This is how you're the bad boy. You just like, you know. Shut up. Stop. Stop bawling. Stop blubbering. 10:11 Erin: Eat your food like a good girl. 10:13 Wes: Yeah, one always has to be careful with children. 10:18 Erin: That's a pretty. That's a pretty good impression. Well, I mean, I think we're meant to see him as not very nice, though in these moments. Sometimes it depends on how sympathetic you find Joan Fontaine's little, little girl lost routine. So maybe she needs to. Maybe she needs someone to take, you know, take a stern hand with her. 10:39 Wes: Modest. To A fault. 10:41 Erin: Right, right. Yeah. I find it interesting the way that she's sort of set upon by three major figures in the film and what each of those represent, all of them older women, so Mrs. Van Hopper at the beginning and then Mrs. Danvers and then Rebecca herself. But Mrs. Van Hopper, I take it's really difficult to tell, actually, because of everybody's transcontinental kind of accents. But Mrs. Van Hopper's American, right? 11:08 Wes: I thought the same thing. Yeah. 11:10 Erin: Yeah. She's. 11:10 Wes: Are they American or are they English? 11:12 Erin: Right, right. Because Mrs. Van Hopper, the actress who plays her, is actually American, but she's working really hard on some of those vowel sounds. She's kneading them into Englishness. I think from her name, Van Hopper, and from the fact that she goes to New York to see her daughter married is indicative of the. That she's American. And therefore the association that she wants to create with Maxim seems to be one of, you know, this sort of typical. Well, the sort of ugly American stereotype, right. Of the wealthy socialite class in New York. The aristocracy of America wanting to sort of, like, further legitimize itself by connections to the, quote, unquote, real aristocracy of England and of the Continent. And, of course, these marriages to shore up America's aristocratic claims were very commonly made. Right. We have the Vanderbilts marrying Polish counts and the Churchills and the, you know, this lord and that lord and. Yeah, the Vanderbilts, the Rockefellers. All of those sorts of families that at one time were considered new money, even in America, are sort of trying to get their footing with these aristocrats. And oftentimes, the aristocratic families that they married into, it was a marriage of convenience in which the English aristocrat with the huge estate didn't have the money to run the estate and needed to be sort of bankrolled by American money to keep his ancestral grounds and home alive and running properly. And so there was just something of that. I'm just thinking about this because I'm thinking about the ways in which the movie, to me, seems to be making larger claims about England as an idea in the sort of waning, you know, came out in 1940. They were making it at the time. England was in World War II. America was not yet in World War II. And what the sort of dwindling years of empire might have to do with the house itself. Rebecca, some interesting things to tweeze out there, which I'm sure we will. Yeah. But Van Hopper is awful. And Joan Fontaine, who I'm gonna just refer to as Joan Fontaine, throughout the. Or throughout the episode, she, like, says, oh, she's. She's really a nice lady, or something like that. Like, she says something kind of positive about Mrs. Van Hopper. Even though we've never seen her be anything but, she gets increasingly cruel. But we've never seen her be anything but dismissive, rude and overbearing to her. So maybe what counts as nice for Joan Fontaine makes Maxim look great if her standards are too low. I don't know. 13:54 Wes: Yeah. It's when they have that impromptu lunch that he inquires, is Mrs. Van Hopper a friend of yours or just a relation? Then it turns out she's a paid companion. And he said, I didn't know companionship could be bought. That's a little risque. A little risque. Bit of flirting. 14:13 Erin: And also, he definitely knew that, but okay. 14:15 Wes: Right. Of course. Then she makes that remark about looking it up in the dictionary and laughs because it means a friend of the bosom. 14:24 Erin: She's like 8 years old. 14:25 Wes: And then he says, you know, I don't envy the privilege. And that's when she calls Van Hopper kind. She's very kind, really. And I have to earn my living. So I guess it's a Cinderella who doesn't quite know that she's being abused. Right. I mean, she is an orphan. Both her parents have died. Just that there's an orphan. I don't know what age they've died as. She's a young adult, I assume. 14:51 Erin: Her mother died when she was young, and then her father died relatively recently, I think. 14:55 Wes: Yeah. 14:56 Erin: Because the father was painting trees up until. Or one tree up until recently. 15:01 Wes: Yeah. So it is interes…
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