Spiritual Life and Leadership

Latest Episodes:

139. Disequilibrium and the Mission of God, with Markus Watson Oct 11, 2022

Show notes

Eric Hoffman said, “To dispose a soul to action, we must upset its equilibrium.” In this episode, we’re going to talk about the state of disequilibrium that so many of us find ourselves in—what used to work in church leadership and ministry doesn’t seem to work anymore. And we’re going to talk about why that disequilibrium is actually a gift.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

We live in a time of great disequilibrium.
When we talking about disequilibrium, it is helpful to think of it in the context of a “complex adaptive system.”
A complex adaptive system is a network of organisms, relationships, and connections that interact in such a way as to maintain some kind of balance.
Complex adaptive systems want to remain in a state of equilibrium.
Disequilibrium happens when something in the system changes.
The dodo bird went extinct because it had lived in a state of equilibrium for so long that it couldn't survive changes in its system.
In Surfing the Edge of Chaos, the authors argue that "prolonged equilibrium is a precursor to death."
But when a system experiences disequilibrium, it has the opportunity to become stronger, more resilient, and healthier.
For about the past 1700 hundred years, the church in the West has existed in a state of relative equilibrium.
But the culture changed and now the church exists in a state of disequilibrium.
The church needs to embrace the disequilibrium because that will make it stronger, more resilient and healthier.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:
Books mentioned:

Surfing the Edge of Chaos, by Richard Pascale, Mark Milleman, and Linda Gioja

Online courses and cohorts:

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138. Ministry Leadership in a Time of Immense Change, with Markus Watson Sep 27, 2022

Show notes

In a time of immense change, how should churches do ministry? How should pastors and leaders lead their churches and organizations? Should we set a BHAG--a Big Hairy Audacious Goal? Should we set one-year, five-year, and ten-year goals?
Or is there another way? Could it be that what we need are not big, enormous goals, but simple to take small steps and achieve short-term wins?
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDES:

Markus Watson questions whether or not churches today should set BHAGs--Big Hairy Audacious Goals.
“Small steps and short-term wins are the best approach, rather than big programs or large-scale planning.” --Alan Roxburgh, The Missional Leader
We are living in a time of discontinuous change.
Continuous change is the kind of change that is expected and understood.
Discontinuous change is unexpected and hard to understand.
In times of discontinuous change, Markus Watson suggests churches should not set large goals; rather they should conduct small experiments.
Missteps and small losses can be just as valuable for churches today as small steps and short-term wins.
Whether through wins or losses, the most important thing, according to Markus Watson, is to keep learning.
Through their small wins and losses, churches can learn about their neighbors, about themselves, and about God.
To learn more, join one of these learning experiences:
- Leading Your Church Through Change, a free online course that teaches the process of action-reflection as a method for leading change in your church.
- Adaptive Church Leadership Cohort, an 18-month deep-dive learning cohort led by Tod Bolsinger and the Church Leadership Institute to help you navigate change in a disruptive world.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Books mentioned:
- The Missional Leader: Equipping Your Church to Reach a Changing World, by Alan Roxburgh and Fred Romanuk
- Built to Last: Successful Habits of Visionary Companies, by Jim Collins
Online courses and cohorts:
- Leading Your Church Through Change
- Adaptive Church Leadership Cohort

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137. Ending Homelessness, with Kevin Nye, author of Grace Can Lead Us Home Sep 13, 2022

Show notes

Kevin Nye is the author of Grace Can Lead Us Home: A Christian Call to End Homelessness, and Housing Director of a non-profit youth center. In this episode, Kevin helps us understand some of the misconceptions about homelessness—what’s really going on—and what we can do about it. Specifically, he helps us understand why the first thing we should do is provide housing for those who need it, not because they’ve earned it, but as an act of grace.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Kevin Nye is the author of Grace Can Lead Us Home: A Christian Call to End Homelessness, and Housing Director a non-profit youth center.
Having attended Fuller Seminary, Kevin Nye initially intended to be a pastor.
Kevin Nye helps us understand some of the common misconceptions about homelessness.
One common misconception about homelessness is that people who experience homelessness somehow deserve it.
Kevin Nye invites us to respond to the challenge of homelessness with grace. That is, we should not focus on what people deserve or earn in order to receive help when struggling with homelessness.
Markus shares about an encounter he had with a homeless person that day and Kevin offers his response.
Every challenging or uncomfortable encounter we have with a person experiencing homelessness is likely the result of some kind of systemic failure that has led or kept that person where they are.
A person who experiences homelessness has fallen through every social safety net.
Challenges like addiction and mental illness are much easier to address and manage when a person has housing.
The housing first strategy costs less than the current system which tends to keep people where they are.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Kevin Nye
- Website – www.kevinmnye.com
- Twitter - @kevinmnye1
- Instagram - @kevinmnye
- Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/knye1
Books mentioned:
- Grace Can Lead Us Home: A Christian Call to End Homelessness, by Kevin Nye

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136. Healthy Attachment and Spiritual Leadership, with Todd Hall, author of The Connected Life Aug 30, 2022

Show notes

Todd Hall is the author of The Connected Life and professor of Psychology at Biola University and faculty affiliate at the Harvard Human Flourishing Program.
In this episode we discuss a key component of healthy leadership: secure attachments. Healthy leaders more likely grew up with safe and secure attachments (primarily with their parents or key caregivers) or have worked to develop safe and secure now in their adult years. Todd Hall unpacks how to grow into a healthy leader by developing those safe and secure attachments.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDES:

Todd Hall is the author of The Connected Life and professor of Psychology at Biola University and faculty affiliate at the Harvard Human Flourishing Program.
According to Todd Hall, a “connected life” is a life in which we feel known and accepted by the important people in our lives. And we don’t feel alone with our emotional pain.
Having a secure attachment is characterized by: comfort, challenge, and companionship.
A life of healthy connectedness requires healthy connections in our childhood.
When we don’t have strong connections, according to Todd Hall, we can develop unhealthy insecure attachments.
Anxious attachment manifests as a feeling that people in my life won’t be there for me.
Dismissing attachment manifests with shutting down their connections and sense of need for other people.
Todd Hall shows how our relationships with our childhood attachment figures impact the way we relate to God.
Todd Hall tells his own story of struggling with his relationships as a child and the healing he experienced as he grew up.
Peer relationships can also affect our sense of attachment in our relationships.
According to Todd Hall, the experience of suffering can lead to growth if it is processed well.
We process our suffering well as we bring our suffering to God.
The act of “lament” can be a way of bringing our suffering to God.
Lament includes four elements:
- An address to God.
- A pouring out of our suffering to God.
- A request to God to alleviate our suffering.
- An expression of trust in God.
When we suffer we also need to bring our experience with people who are safe.
In order to lead well, pastors and church leaders need to address their own attachment needs and learn to be attuned to their own emotions.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Books mentioned:
- The Connected Life, by Todd Hall
- Relational Spirituality, by Todd Hall
Website:
www.connectedlifebook.com

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135. Leading Your Church Through Political Division, with Allen Hilton, author of A House United Aug 16, 2022

Show notes

Allen Hilton is the author of A House United: How the Church Can Save the World and founder of the non-profit, A House United. In this episode, we discuss the rise of political divisiveness that has invaded our churches. And we address what we can do about it.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Allen Hilton is the author of A House United: How The Church Can Save the World. Allend Hilton has been a New Testament professor at Yale Divinty School, has served as a pastor for 15 years, and in 2016 started a non-profit called A House United.
The problem that America is facing today is that we don’t “stay at the table.”
According to Allen Hilton, the church bears responsibility for the polarization in America today.
Allen Hilton shows how the church throughout history—even the early church—has been prone to polarization.
In choosing the twelve disciples, Jesus chose people who were politically diametrically opposed to each other.
Allen Hilton suggests that if we can get 70% of Christians to be willing to have conversations with people they disagree with, things will begin to change.
They way we increase shalom is by getting good at being together across difference.
People’s primary identity is their political affiliation. If churches never address politics in our discourse, then we will fail to connect with what is most important to people.
Allen Hilton explains Mission 4.0:
- Mission 1.0 is evangelism.
- Mission 2.0 is charity and service.
- Mission 3.0 is justice.
- Mission 4.0 is unity in the church and beyond the church.
Allen Hilton does a daily devotional which you can sign up for HERE.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Allen Hilton:
- House United Movement website
- Newsletter
- E-mail: allen@houseunitedmovement.org
Books mentioned:
- A House United, by Allen Hilton

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134. How to Help Your City Thrive, with Amy Sherman, author of Agents of Flourishing Aug 02, 2022

Show notes

Amy Sherman is the author of Agents of Flourishing and a Senior Fellow at the Sagamore Institute. In this conversation, Amy is going to help us understand six “community endowments”—six arenas of life—that need to be strong in order for those communities to truly be flourishing communities. And then Amy gives us some great starting points to help us discern how God may be calling us to contribute to and strengthen those endowments in our communities.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Amy Sherman is the author of Agents of Flourishing and a Senior Fellow at the Sagamore Institute.
Agents of Flourishing is a response to the need Amy Sherman sensed from pastors and ministry leaders—the need to know how to bring shalom into the world.
Amy Sherman explains that shalom is a Hebraic concept referring to total wholeness.
Jesus came into the world as an agent of flourishing. Jesus brought shalom into the world and calls us to join him in the ongoing work of restoring shalom.
Amy Sherman structured Agents of Flourishing around six “community endowments,” originally developed by the Thriving Cities Group.
The six community endowments are:
- The True
- The Good
- The Beautiful
- The Just and Well-ordered
- The Sustainable
- The Prosperous
A city that is strong in only one or two these won’t be a truly thriving city. Cities need all (or at least most) of these endowments to be strong.
The goal of Agents of Flourising is to help pastors and churches take stock of their own gifts and passions and discern which of these endowments they might contribute to.
Amy Sherman encourages churches to take stock of their assets. This might include physical assets like buildings and classrooms, relational assets like partnerships with other churches or organizations, and financial assets.
Amy Sherman also recommends assessing the strengths, gifts, and assets of the community outside the church.
Too often churches rush to start a new program. Sometimes it’s better to partner with an organization already doing good work.
Made to Flourish, together with Amy Sherman, designed a helpful “Skill Mapping Survey.”
You can find out more about Amy Sherman at the Sagamore Institute’s Center on Faith in Communities website.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Sagamore Institute
Center on Faith in Communities
Thriving Cities Group
Made to Flourish
- Skill Mapping Survey
Books mentioned:
- Agents of Flourishing, by Amy Sherman
- Kingdom Calling, by Amy Sherman
- The Last Juror, by John Grisham
- Beautiful on the Mountain, by Jeannie Light
Related episodes:
- Episode 60: Shalom for the City, with Amy Sherman, author of Kingdom Calling

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133. Partners Not Projects, with Scott Sabin, Executive Director of Plant with Purpose Jul 19, 2022

Show notes

Scott Sabin is the Executive Director of Plant with Purpose, an organization that works with people in poverty all over the world to restore the land where they live so that they can become self-sustaining. It’s an organization that recognizes that they are not the saviors of the poor, they are partners who work with the poor.
In this episode, Scott shares about the work of Plant with Purpose. Then, Scott and Markus draw connections between the way Plant with Purpose does its mission work and how the healthiest churches do ministry in their neighborhoods. And it all comes down to recognizing people as "partners, not projects."
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDES:

Scott Sabin is the Executive Director of Plant With Purpose, author of Tending to Eden, and an elder at Mount Soledad Presbyterian Church.
The mission of Plant with Purpose begins with the recognition that many of the world’s poorest people depend directly on the well-being of the land for their survival.
Plant with Purpose works to alleviate poverty in three ways:
- Environmental restoration
- Economic empowerment through Purpose Groups (savings groups)
- Spiritual renewal through a biblically based curriculum
Plant with Purpose focuses its work around watersheds for a variety of practical reasons.
Once Plant with Purpose identifies an area in which to work, they begin networking with local leaders.
Asset-mapping is an important component of Plant with Purpose’s work. What are the assets in a particular community?
Plant with Purpose seeks to collaborate with other organizations in the area.
It is critical to hear from all the different parts of a community (not just one or two groups).
The staff that does the work locally are local to the region (or, at least, local to the country). They are not outsiders.
Plant with Purpose views the people the serve as “partners, not projects.”
Scott and Markus reflect on how Plant with Purpose’s strategies and methods could be applied to local church ministry.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Plant with Purpose
Books mentioned:
- Tending to Eden, by Scott Sabin
- Walking with the Poor, by Bryant Myers
- Beyond Thingification, by Markus Watson
Related episodes:
- Episode 115: Poverty Alleviation and Spiritual Leadership, with Rob Gailey, author of Development in Mission

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132. The Role of Nostalgia in Spiritual Leadership, with Mark Roberts and Tod Bolsinger Jul 05, 2022

Show notes

Mark Roberts is the former Executive Director of Fuller Seminary’s DePree Center for Leadership. Mark now leads the Third Third Initiative at the DePree Center.
In this episode, Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss three clips from a recent webinar by Mark Roberts on the topic of nostalgia. We learn about the difference between historical nostalgia and personal nostalgia. We discuss the positive effects of nostalgia. And then we reflect on how to lead people pastorally through the experience of nostalgia.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Tod Bolsinger is the Executive Director of Fuller Seminary’s Church Leadership Institute and the author of Canoeing the Mountains and Tempered Resilience.
Mark Roberts is the former Executive Director of Fuller Seminary’s DePree Center for Leadership. Mark now leads the Third Third Initiative at the DePree Center.
Mark Roberts and Tod Bolsinger have been friends for a long time. The topic of this podcast episode came about as they were talking over dinner about the value of nostaligia.
Mark Roberts, Clip 1: The difference between historical nostalgia and personal nostalgia.
- Historical nostalgia has to do with thinking the past is better than the present.
- Many churches are in decline. If they try to go back to the glory days, they decline even faster.
Mark Roberts, Clip 2: The Positive Effects of Nostalgia
- Personal nostalgia is a bittersweet yearning for the past.
- Part of personal nostalgia is knowing you can’t go back; so it’s not trying to go back.
- Nostalgia shouldn’t make you go back to the past. It should energize you to live more fully in the present.
- There is something lifegiving about nostalgia.
- Reframing the values of the past to be the healthiest expression of the future is what is lifegiving to a church.
- Churches have to help people grieve that we’re never going to go back to the past.
Mark Roberts, Clip 3: Two Pastoral Responses to Nostalgia
- When people feel nostalgic about their church, the pastor can 1) turn the nostalgia to gratitude or 2) acknowledge the bittersweetness of remembering the past
- Gratitude is critical in a healthy, mature organization.
- Gratitude reminds us that God was faithful in the past and will be faithful as we move into the future.
- Attunement accelerates change.
- Attunement is what happens when people empathize with each other and their brains start firing together.
The Church Leadership Institute’s Adaptive Church Leadership Cohort is designed to help churches respond to nostalgia in a healthy way so that they can navigate and lead change in a healthy way as they move into the future.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Church Leadership Institute
- Adaptive Church Leadership Cohort
DePree Center for Leadership
Third Third Initiative
Books mentioned:
- Canoeing the Mountains, by Tod Bolsinger
- Tempered Resilience, by Tod Bolsinger

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131. Spiritual Leadership in the Digital Space, with Laura Murray Jun 21, 2022

Show notes

What is a digital silent retreat? In this episode, Laura Murray, a pastor and spiritual director, will tell the story of how she began to use Zoom to lead digital silent retreats while people were quarantining due to Covid, as well as offer insight into how to lead your own digital silent retreats.

THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDES:

Laura Murray is a pastor, a spiritual director, and regularly hosts digital silent retreats.
Laura started leading digital silent retreats as a response to the experience of isolation due to the Covid quarantine that began in March 2020.
Laura Murray knew it was important for people to have solitude and silence, but also to have connection—to be able to talk about their experience and what they were feeling.
Laura explains how the digital silent retreat is structured.
Participants in the digital silent retreats are asked to prepare before they show up, such as putting it on your calendar and letting their families know they’ll be unavailable during that time.
The digital silent retreats are limited to the host plus eight people.
Participants tend to find courage from one another in their sharing in the digital space.
Laura Murray reflects on whether it would be better if they met in person.
Meeting by Zoom has some advantages over in-person. For instance, it levels the group socio-economically.
According to Laura Murray, hospitality is a cornerstone practice for the digital silent retreats.
Two other key practices are generosity and spacious guidance.
Hospitality creates safe space for people to open up. Hospitality also has boundaries.
Laura Murray helps us understand the connection between leadership and hospitality.
We need to have a clear “why” when doing digital silent retreats.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Laura Murray:
- Website – www.laurabmurray.com/retreats
Books mentioned:
- This Here Flesh, by Cole Arthur Riley
Church Leadership Institute

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130. Pursuing Your Purpose, with Nicholas Pearce, author of The Purpose Path Jun 07, 2022

Show notes

Nicholas Pearce is the author of The Purpose Path. He is also Clinical Professor of Management & Organizations at Northwestern University Kellogg School of Management and Founder & CEO of The Vocati Group.
In this episode, Nicholas Pearce discusses what success really is. Spoiler alert—it has nothing to do with bigger, better, and more. It has to do with faithfully following the purpose to which God has called us.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Nicholas Pearce is the author of The Purpose Path. He is also Clinical Professor of Management & Organizations at Northwestern University Kellogg School of Management and Founder & CEO of The Vocati Group.
Nicholas Pearce says that many of us learn to define success from an early age based on how those around us define success.
The question, “What is success?” is best answered by faithfulness.
According to Nicholas Pearce, success is best thought of as simple faithfulness one decision at a time.
Many people climb the ladder of success, but feel like failures when they get to the top.
Our definitions of success are like rudders that orient us in certain directions, impacting our sense of purpose.
Nicholas Pearce makes the case that sometimes moments of purpose present themselves as distractions or disruptions.
Nicholas Pearce shares how he has had to redefine success in his own life in order to more faithfully pursue his purpose.
Sometimes we need to pivot when pursuing our purpose.
God is not always going to do the miraculous. Sometimes God just wants to see if you’ll put into practice what you know.
Nicholas Pearce suggests that instead of praying for clarity, maybe we should be praying for courage, specifically vocational courage.
Nicholas Pearce offers words of advice and encouragement for ministry leaders and pastors who are struggling to follow their purpose path.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Nicholas Pearce:
- Twitter - @napphd
- Instagram - @napphd
- Website – www.nicholaspearce.org
Books mentioned:
- The Purpose Path: A Guide to Pursuing Your Authentic Life's Work, by Nicholas Pearce
- Brighter by the Day: Waking Up to New Hopes and Dreams, by Robin Roberts
Church Leadership Institute

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