Real Recovery Talk

Latest Episodes:

87 - Gormy Goes Keto shares about his Food Addiction and how he has regained his life back Oct 10, 2019

Show notes

Gormy is an Instagram influencer @gormy_goes_keto. He has a history of food addiction, starting as a child. At his heaviest, he weighed 540 pounds. He built a life that supported and enabled his food addiction and focused his world around food. As long as he could access food, he didn't care about his health issues, reduced mobility, or an unhealthy lifestyle. Gormy realized, after not being able to find work, that he needed to change and get into better shape.

He developed habits such as "sneak eating," how he would only lose weight to please his parents, and how Gormy didn't have any ownership in moving toward a healthy lifestyle. As an adult, he realized that he needed to lose weight to get a job. He got to his goal weight of 210 for his 40th birthday in 2011. Then, he decided to have a cheat meal, which turned into a cheat weekend and then snowballed into completely giving up into eating any type of healthy food. He put on 100 pounds in the first month of eating in this fashion. Gormy went from 210 to 480 in 6 months. Listen in to find out how Gormy went from resigning life to moving to be an inspiration to others.

Show Notes:

[03:23] I introduce Gormy and he gives background on how he developed Gormy Goes Keto.
[04:12] Gormy talks about his food addiction history, dating back to when he was a child.
[07:15] After college, Gormy's food addiction turned for the worse.
[08:58] Gormy talks about the physical challenges of being obese.
[10:15] He talks about how he avoided doctors, even with multiple medical conditions.
[12:31] The psychological impact of his parents paying him money to lose weight when he was a child.
[17:19] His second diet, at 16, he started off at 350 pounds. He would "sneak eat" food and throw out the wrappers so his family didn't know what he was eating.
[23:42] As soon as Gormy found a new job on the East Coast, he was back eating again and gained back much of the weight he lost.
[34:09] Gormy resigns himself to dying and writes a letter to his family.
[40:01] We compare food addiction to drugs and alcohol addiction, what do these have in common?
[43:34] Gormy remembers his stepmom crying because she thought he was going to die because of his weight.
[45:51] Eating too much has become normalized in our society.
[48:18] Gormy realizes his responsibilities have changed when his dad asks him for help to take care of two newborns.
[50:33] Gormy realizes his life has impact and that he is now responsible for somebody else other than himself.
[54:19] He thinks about who he wants to be as a person, as well as what does he want to weigh?
[01:00:50] What steps does Gormy take now for his accountability?

Links and Resources:

86 - Brandon Lilly - A Conversation About Internal Healing, Finding Ourselves and Our Purpose and Helping Others Oct 03, 2019

Show notes

Brandon Lilly is a strength coach and top ranked powerlifter. He was ranked as one of the strongest powerlifters of all time lifting over 2000 pounds in multiple classes. His Cube Method has also helped other men do the same and has helped women total over 1000 pounds.

After a devastating knee injury that required Brandon to have 17 surgeries, he ended up in bed with time for reflection. During this time, he realized that his powerlifting had become an obsession, and he had let most other aspects of his life fall by the wayside. Addiction can take many forms, and it doesn't have to only apply to drugs and alcohol. As Brandon explains, it can even apply to powerlifting.

Show Notes:

[03:37] Brandon started to recognize that addiction is somewhat woven into the fabric of human existence. We all have addictive qualities to some degree.
[04:48] We've done a poor job of classifying people as broken, when they're not broken, they're just human.
[05:12] Brandon was so addicted to powerlifting that he made choices for the progression of the sport not the progression of himself. Powerlifting consumed who he was and his life.
[06:24] Brandon had a catastrophic injury that required multiple knee surgeries. When he wasn't able to power lift, it gave him time to take a pause and think about all that he had given up in order to powerlift.
[07:48] He knew the isolation and loneliness that he was feeling was going to be recurring if he didn't make some changes in his life.
[10:38] The first step may be changing the food or the drink, but there has to be a second and third step. Patterns have to be broken.
[16:38] Mark Bell had a similar experience when he was injured, and it was a pivotal moment in his life.
[18:51] Brandon experienced a lot of loss and wanted to use that to be the best in powerlifting, but he was alienating himself from his family while being obsessed with the sport.
[22:07] He had so many issues with his leg, because he wouldn't give up what was killing him. He should have only had 3 surgeries, but he had 17, because he wasn't taking care of himself.
[23:34] Brandon realized that he was exactly where he was, because that is where he put himself.
[24:30] For him, the powerlifting was a positive expression until it wasn't.
[26:24] We all have something that we are fighting against. Brandon was mad at the world for no reason.
[28:25] He was the smallest kid on the block and had a chip on his shoulder. He always felt like he needed more to be more.
[33:01] Success doesn't happen quickly, it's better to build something for life.
[37:50] People have to decide they want help on their own and not be forced into it.
[42:55] It's no effort to do the things that you are truly doing for yourself.
[44:23] Brandon speaks for himself and doesn't want to be controversial. He doesn't fall into the trap of trying to impress people anymore. He's very real about his struggles.
[52:18] It's important to have a community and find people who support you and help you reach your goals.
[59:09] Without the hard days, Brandon wouldn't be able to enjoy the sunrise that he enjoys now.
[01:06:31] If Brandon can make someone's life better with a smile, he'll smile.
[01:07:06] Brandon got very strong very fast when he started powerlifting. He wanted to be liked, followed, and make a living. Now he just wants to be a functional human.
[01:08:29] His workouts now consist of two heavy days one upper and one lower, two rep days one upper and one lower, and two speed days one upper and one lower. He takes one day off and also hikes three to four days a week.
[01:12:51] Hold on and recognize the small miracles and things that matter.

Links and Resources:

85 - Three Steps to Ensure Long Term Recovery Sep 26, 2019

Show notes

Getting sober and being sober is great, but how can you ensure that you're going to have sustainable long-term sobriety and recovery? For those who struggle with relapse and can't string together any substantial clean time, it becomes like a repetitive hamster wheel that they feel like they can't get off of.

I'm on my ninth year of sobriety. For me, as time goes by, it's easier to stay sober. This doesn't mean I don't have those low points that can make staying sober a challenge. It just means that I've found ways to help stay sober. Today, I'm going to discuss some techniques that I use to ensure that I have long lasting sobriety.

Show Notes:

[05:54] You have to understand that nothing about the process is easy, but the longer you go the easier it gets.
[07:05] I don't want to lose any of the things that I've gained that has monetary value.
[08:30] Wants someone is getting sober and gets a job, it feels good to have money in their pocket.
[10:35] There will be challenges, but you need to be resilient.
[11:50] People who are sober get knocked down and they pick themselves up, they don't go and get high. They do whatever they need to do to protect their sobriety.
[12:31] We need to learn to delay gratification.
[13:36] If I want something, I try to table it for 30 days and then if I'm still thinking about it, I'll think about getting it.
[15:26] We need to slow down and understand what the steps are for as we work them not rush through them.
[16:35] I've also taken on new interests that are outside of the recovery world.
[18:58] I want to do things that I wouldn't have done before I was sober. I want to experience what life has to offer.
[23:06] You have to have community. Not just community in your 12-step group. As human beings, we need to be surrounded by human beings.
[25:06] It's even possible to isolate in a public place.
[25:37] In sobriety, you can't isolate. You need to be around people that have gone through what you have gone through and gotten to the other side.
[26:31] It's also great to have a community with your outside interests.
[27:36] You can still have friends who drink. We need people to help us reach our goals and be better people.
[28:57] Sobriety is going to be tough. Build some interests. Keep in fun. Experience new things. Build a community around you that you can reach out to.
[30:03] You will have low points and need people to help pick you up. If you do these things, you can maintain sobriety.

Links and Resources:

Real Recovery Talk on YouTube

84 - SMART Recovery - Our Thoughts and Knowledge on It. Most Important, DO SOMETHING! Sep 19, 2019

Show notes

We've been getting a lot of comments and questions about SMART Recovery. So today, Tom and Ben discuss SMART Recovery along with why it's important to do some type of treatment and get the help you need. You really just have to pick something, and then you have to do it.

Ben has attended a SMART Recovery meeting. He shares the acronym for SMART goals, and his opinion of the program. We also talk about how important it is to stick with whatever program you choose to get the results that will benefit you for your entire life.

Show Notes:

[03:49] Ben is an AA 12-Step guy through and through. He has also learned not to pigeon himself into one way and one way only.
[04:15] The acronym SMART stands for specific, measurable, attainable, realistic, and timely when referring to goals.
[05:06] We want clients to be self-sufficient and find jobs. Finding a job isn't specific, but filling out 10 applications is.
[07:11] You want your goals to be attainable and realistic.
[09:19] A lot of recovery programs are similar and related.
[09:58] SMART Recovery is also based on therapy. It's based on three musts. I must or I'm a failure. You must treat me a certain way. I must not have pain, worry etc.
[11:12] Realistically you will feel negative feelings. You need to apply rational thoughts and reframe situations.
[13:23] SMART Recovery has an ABC. A is an activating event. B is a belief. C is the consequence. It's a process of rational thinking.
[14:21] Ben went to a SMART Recovery meeting. It's like group therapy without the therapist. They are run differently from state to state. There is consistency in 12-Step programs.
[20:09] Whatever program you are using, you need to go to the meetings and practice it. You have to give it time and an opportunity to work.
[23:25] Don't say something doesn't work until you've done the whole thing. If you do everything you are supposed to do, it will work.
[26:32] Don't focus on the end date. Focus on the journey and the program.

Links and Resources:

83 - Can I CURE My Addiction? Sep 05, 2019

Show notes

People often say, why don't you just stop using? It's obvious what it's doing to your life and the lives of those around you. If curing addiction where that easy, everyone would do it and addiction issues wouldn't be an issue. We all know that addiction is an issue and has a strong hold on many.

This episode goes into the reasons why it's impossible to just cure addiction. We talk about how humans are programmed for pleasure, how drinking initially feels good, how it can turn into something that is almost impossible to stop, and more. People have a lot of different opinions about this topic. I would love to hear what you think, so feel free to weigh in with your opinion.

Show Notes:

[03:17] Human beings are programmed for pleasure and like to feel good. Drugs and alcohol give people a euphoric feeling that they enjoy.
[04:32] The problem is that the good feeling eventually turns into problems like DUIs, lost relationships, withdrawal symptoms, and so on.
[05:08] That first sip of alcohol can make us feel good and limit inhibitions. We love that dopamine hit.
[06:01] People also have addiction with relationships. If we don't address the underlying issues, we'll just look for something else to make us feel good.
[06:54] The underlying issue that's fueling the addiction needs to be uncovered.
[07:25] People get addicted to things to avoid pain. When people stop drinking and drugging they have to deal with the pain without the substances.
[08:43] If we're not getting clean and sober, and we're experiencing emotional or physical pain, the only way to deal with it is drugs and alcohol.
[10:06] People always have multiple issues going on. As people get clean and sober it takes a lot of work to uncover the underlying issues. Anxiety and depression are very common.
[12:54] The system is often set up to punish people. There is nothing rehabilitating about going to jail. Drugs addict can find drugs in jail. Once again, the underlying issue needs to be addressed.
[14:12] Lack of purpose is a common issue with drug addicts. People need to feel like they have some type of purpose.
[16:25] Once the drugs and alcohol are gone, it's time to figure out why you are here. Having something that you really enjoy will give you something to look forward to.
[18:34] It's my opinion that addiction can't be cured. It can be put at bay. It can be maintained, but it can't be cured.
[19:30] If we're willing to do the work, we can put the addiction on the shelf, but it's unfair to say it can be cured.

Links and Resources:

Real Recovery Talk on YouTube

82 - Hannah Marks - Founder of WhereHab Aug 29, 2019

Show notes

Hannah Marks is someone who Tom has known for seven years, and they have both been sober ever since. Hannah and Tom talk about Hannah's journey to addiction and sobriety. Her story is a little different, because she started drinking when she was 11 and got sober at 17 years old. Hannah shares how her gateway drug was trauma, and how she started drinking after the death of her father.

Hannah is also the founder of an advocacy website called Wherehab. This site helps people explore treatment options without a sales pitch. It doesn't operate on leads. The focus is just to help educate people about treatment options and what would work best for their unique situation. She also has an app launching soon. We talk about trauma, sobriety, treatment, Hannah's great life, and world travel.

Show Notes:

[03:02] Trauma was Hannah's gateway drug. Her dad died when she was 11, and she started drinking a lot.
[03:56] After getting sober, Hannah still had a lot of mental obstacles to overcome. She had to really dig deep and do a lot of therapy.
[04:27] She wasn't talk the coping skills to deal with what she was dealing with, and she didn't have a strong sense of self.
[05:04] After getting sober, she realized that she had more things to deal with. She learned that trauma could be from not trusting herself and having an identity.
[06:18] Trauma is different for everyone.
[08:46] After her dad's death, it took Hannah five or six years to get her feelings back. She didn't know how to feel feelings like sadness, so she would do whatever it would take to distract herself like eat.
[10:11] If she wasn't getting high, she felt like she would die. Drugs and alcohol are a symptom to deal with thoughts and feelings.
[11:41] Hannah was 17 when she got sober. She started going to meetings and was involved with positive people.
[13:58] After high school, Hannah's sister invited her to stay in Gainesville. She ended up at an AA meeting by chance after giving someone a ride.
[16:50] A sense of community is so important.
[18:32] Getting sober is kind of like facing the fear of death. You either have to have the community or hit rock bottom.
[20:29] Wherehab is resource where you can learn about quality treatment providers without being sold leads. They have a blog, and you can learn about different treatment modalities.
[22:05] Hannah has toured over 500 rehab centers.
[23:03] There isn't a one type fit all treatment. Different plans will work for different people depending on where they are at. The way you learn recovery will be unique to you.
[25:35] Hannah makes her own work schedule and goes on awesome trips around the world. She has the perfect sober life. She is also more selective about who she lets in her life. She is also going to Asia for a month.
[26:59] She has been to Mexico, Costa Rica, Bahamas, Canada, England, Italy, France, Japan, India, Burma, Thailand, Germany, Austria, Hungary, or 13% of the world.
[27:33] She also just did a soft version of a meeting finder app. It has many functions like finding a community, mentors, and setting goals. It's called SYN or Sober Young Network.

Links and Resources:

81 - Joel shares his Experience, Strength and Hope. And how legal consequences helped get him sober Aug 22, 2019

Show notes

Ben's cousin Joel H. is here today to talk with Tom and Ben about his story of addiction, what he went through, getting sober, and staying sober. Joel is four years older than Ben and was super influential on Ben when they were growing up. Ben also shares how important it was for him to see Joel go through the process.

Ben was born with one hand, but that didn't deter him from playing all of the sports especially karate. His mom also encouraged him to be social and surrounded him with friends. Like many of us, Joel drank as a teen. His addiction issues didn't really flare up until he was injured and tried oxycontin. We talk about this and more in this encouraging and entertaining episode.

Show Notes:

[03:55] Ben shares how Joel got him to work out by punishing him on heavy weights. He was a huge influence to him.
[05:00] Ben also took Joel to his first AA meeting.
[06:07] Joel was born with one hand. He was an only child, but his mom always made sure he had friends around and got to try all of the sports. Karate was his favorite.
[07:04] His parents drank on weekends. That didn't seem to have a huge effect on his addiction.
[08:16] When he was nearing the end of his teen years, several events took place that he didn't have the coping mechanisms to deal with. He went through a breakup. His grandfather died, and his parents also got divorced.
[08:50] He also had two groups of friends. The church group that was into sports and the pot smoking surfer group.
[09:06] He started spending more time with the second group, because he liked the effects of alcohol and it helped him cope with his current losses.
[09:24] He was still responsible. He went to school, worked, and got married.
[10:14] When he was 28 years old, he had an accident in the weight room. He began taking Oxycontin for the pain and ended up spending his money on it for the next two years.
[11:39] He got to a point where he overdosed.
[12:03] He divorced and got into a new relationship. His pain began again, and he got legitimate pain meds. This led to addiction and depression.
[13:01] Joel got into trouble for the first time in his life. Joel shares a story where he ended up being dubbed the one handed bandit. He also broke into a courthouse building.
[14:36] He ended up turning himself in and losing his home and relationships.
[15:21] Ben and some friends knew it was time to get him into treatment.
[16:06] Joel started to go to meetings, get a sponsor, and work the steps.
[20:03] Part of the process of re-evaluating your life is taking an inventory of the way you were behaving and the way you would like to behave.
[21:08] It's more fun being sober and not waking up with a hangover. The biggest gift of recovery is peace of mind.
[23:01] At treatment, Joel felt like he wasn't alone. He was around people with a similar story, and the counselors were great.
[25:05] Tom found out that his false beliefs were at the center of his addiction.
[26:16] Joel couldn't imagine dealing with his pain without using. In meetings, he learned that this was possible.
[29:22] Praying started helping Joel to get his confidence back. He surrounded himself with winners.
[34:14] Fitness really helps with sobriety and having goals and something to shoot for. Joel inspires other people with his one handed bench presses.
[37:13] Ben shares how hiking and speed walking can alleviate depression and anxiety.
[40:37] A lot of common sense stuff can be applied to treatment. Going for walks or to the gym really helps.
[42:15] Part of treatment is practical application of the tools.
[44:06] Joel was in a sober living environment for almost two years. That attests to his willingness to do the work.
[46:27] The recent loss of Joel's mom made him feel helpless. His treatment tools and support group enabled him to cope with the loss that would have normally sent him back into addiction.
[52:49] Joel now works in treatment, and it's great for his relationship with Ben.

Links and Resources:

80 - Dakota Shares His Story- How and Why He Decided to Get Sober Aug 14, 2019

Show notes

A lot of people make an effort to get clean and sober for the wrong reasons. They are doing it for a family member or a loved one. To have success, the addict needs to be committed and want to do it for themselves. In today's episode, Tom talks to Dakota. Dakota is someone who Tom has known for the past year. They talk about how he ended up addicted and how he ended up in South Florida.

Dakota openly shares his story and how he got introduced to weed when he was 10. It didn't take long before he moved on to other things and ended up with a full blown problem. Tom and Dakota talk about some of the parallels of addicts and having problems with their home life. Dakota also shares his unsuccessful attempts to get sober and how things didn't click until he was all in and truly wanted to work the steps.

Show Notes:

[03:56] Dakota was born in Maine and moved to Phoenix when he was 4. His father was an alcoholic. His mom worked all the time.
[04:59] He tried weed when he was 10 and instantly fell in love with it. Then he began drinking. He then moved on to other drugs.
[06:35] The drugs gave him a feeling of acceptance. His relationship with his dad affected his self-esteem. He was always seeking validation.
[10:17] Being a drug dealer made Dakota feel needed.
[11:16] The addictive mentality puts us in positions that we wouldn't normally be in.
[12:22] Things escalated and Dakota began fighting and ended up in one alternative school after another. Things went downhill when he tried Oxy.
[14:34] He got clean for about four months for a girl he was dating. He then began doing Oxy behind her back. They broke up after a year.
[16:02] Dakota was sick and on withdrawals and tried heroin. He was just going to do it one time. The Oxy didn't compare to the heroin.
[17:34] After a year, he decided to go to rehab. He just went to detox and then immediately relapsed.
[19:18] He then overdosed and was really an addict. He lost friends, lived on the street, and went in and out of programs.
[22:04] After another overdose, someone in rehab told him about rehab in South Florida. He got 50 days clean and then started drinking again.
[24:43] After using and going in and out of detox or rehab, he finally decided to call Rock Recovery.
[25:31] He had a moment of clarity and putting the needle in his arm filled him with shame and made him feel miserable.
[27:26] You can't just get clean for other people. You have to want it for yourself.
[28:04] Dakota couldn't change until he put in the actual work.
[30:03] Addicts tend to play the victim. Everyone is out to get them.
[34:22] Parents have to show tough love before their addicted child gets a wake up call. You can't keep enabling your loved ones.
[36:26] Dakota overdosed and almost died. Nick found him passed out.
[37:26] He felt like the people at Rock really cared. Dakota got a sponsor through some help from Ben, and he just hit the ground running.
[38:17] Dakota was completely against doing the steps, but when he actually did them it was exactly what he needed.
[39:30] Sponsorship is something that you should try before you knock it.
[41:31] It's not about the amount of time that you have been clean and sober.
[42:34] Dakota talks about the importance of surrounding himself with people doing what he does. Community and people to connect with are important.
[46:02] Dakota has been clean for 75 quality days.
[47:10] He has had a huge impact on the sober community. It's important to consider yourself a student and learn everyday.
[49:02] You need to have some type of balance when you go through the program. Go to meetings, but have fun and live life too.

Links and Resources:

Real Recovery Talk on YouTube

79 - Why Is Addiction Treatment So Darn Expensive? Aug 08, 2019

Show notes

Tom and Ben discuss why addiction treatment is so expensive. People call all the time and unfortunately, they don't all have private insurance or a lot of money. It really pulls at the heartstrings when we hear people's backgrounds and what is going on with them. We would really love to help everyone, regardless of resources.

We are going to talk about the different aspects of what makes up treatment and things that can make private treatment more expensive. If we could help everyone for free, we would. But there are a lot of resources that go into treatment, and we break some of that down today.

Show Notes:

[05:35] When Ben went to get sober at a state funded detox, they would only open the door when someone left. There is a lot of demand for free detox.
[06:45] On average, some places can be $80,000 for 30 days. These are for people who have a lot of money. Most private in-patient treatment can run $20,000 to $30,000 a month.
[08:14] Private insurance can have an upfront deductible that the patient pays. Insurance companies authorize a certain amount of days. They don't actually pay what they are charged.
[12:32] Treatment centers need to make a certain amount of money to stay afloat. Private treatment centers are a business.
[13:42] Cash amounts are different according to the services that are provided. Licenses therapists went to school, and they need to be compensated.
[15:15] You get what you pay for. A poorly paid therapist isn't going to be focused on the patient when they have money problems going on at home.
[16:43] Business owners that take of their team have the positive results trickled down to everyone else. You want people at the treatment center to be invested in the clients.
[17:47] Liability insurance and other overhead is very high at a treatment center. Accreditation and upkeep also take up money and man hours.
[19:07] A brick and mortar facility where people live can have expenses really add up. They also have adventure activities and little extras like trips to McDonalds and gas for the vans.
[22:22] Not all insurance companies pay equally, so sometimes there is extra cash required. We never know what they are going to pay.
[23:39] Good paying insurance policies allow us to treat other people who don't have insurance that is as good.
[24:36] There are different treatment centers and level of care. Look at it as an investment as opposed to an expense. Treatment is the most reliable way to get sober on the front end.
[26:37] Make sure the patient is completely invested before a loved one puts things on the line with a lot of money.

Links and Resources:

78 - Vinny Bocassi - Sports Scholarships to Junkie to Helping Many Recover from Addiction Aug 01, 2019

Show notes

Tom and Ben talk with Vinny Bocassi about how addiction affected his past and brought him to where he is today. Vinny had a great family growing up, but once he started partying in high school, he just couldn't stop. He even found identity through drugs and partying.

It actually took overdosing three times and being found by his parents and seeing how much they were affected to create a catalyst for change. Finally, seeing how hurt his parents were Vinny went to treatment. This was five years ago and it was his first and last treatment. Now Vinny helps others find sobriety. Today, Vinny shares his story, and how he was able to move past addiction and find identity in recovery.

Show Notes:

[03:00] Vinny was relatively young when he started with alcohol and weed. Unfortunately, once he started it was hard to stop.
[04:11] His reputation from partying made him finally feel like he fit in at school. By the next year, he got into harder drugs.
[05:04] He played sports in school and when he got injured, he tried opiates which became a huge problem.
[08:29] It's the way our bodies respond to alcohol and drugs that makes us addicts.
[11:50] Getting numb and being cool took over for Vinny.
[16:10] After college, Vinny started working for Verizon. Even though, he barely made it through college and lost several scholarships, it took almost dying three times before he realized that enough was enough.
[18:44] Vinny's parents dropped in for a surprise visit and discovered that he had overdosed, and they barely found him in time to save his life.
[19:33] Seeing how hurt his parents were he decided to go into treatment.
[22:28] He is now closer to his parents than ever. He was also his brother's best man.
[24:49] Vinny now works at Chapel Hill Detox in South Florida.
[25:30] When talking to parents of people going into treatment, Vinny shares his story and gets really vulnerable.
[31:54] Going to a treatment center further away from home is the best. People need to be in treatment for at least 30 days.
[34:18] Vinny shares the life young people can have ahead of them when they get sober. Showing people what sobriety is about, can help them see how great it is.
[37:05] Recovery stereotypes need to be broken. Vinny does his best to explain the fun that can be had in sobriety. He even goes to music festivals. You are also more free to travel without the drugs. People getting high can miss out on experiences.
[39:58] Vinny loves active stuff like American Ninja Warrior courses and working out.
[46:14] Vinny just bought a house. He plays music and is becoming an addiction counselor. He wants to become a CAC and run music groups.

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