Real Recovery Talk

Latest Episodes:

167 - Ask yourself these 3 things before speaking to your son or daughter about getting clean and sober! Jan 21, 2021

Show notes

Today, I'll be talking about three questions you want to think about and reflect on before deciding to speak with your loved one about becoming clean and sober. No matter if they are a daughter, son, parent, or friend, these are three critical questions that you want to have answered before you start the conversation on recovery.

Keep in mind that drugs and alcohol are not the only two forms of addiction. Food, sex, gambling, and shopping are all conduits for addiction. These outlets are no less of an addictive substance than drugs or alcohol as the process ignites the same pleasure systems in the brain.

Common Themes Parents Talk About with their Addicted Children

While deciding to have a conversation with your child about their drug habit is a good choice, you first want to consider if this is a fear-based or care-centered conversation. Parents who have conversations out of fear speak out of emotion, leading to a charged conversation with negative side effects. Words such as "need to", "should", "do you realize", "how can you", don't belong in a conversation in which your goal is to get your loved one to rehabilitation.

What do You Want for Your Son or Daughter?

Many parents have a big plan for their children for what they want for their son or daughter based on what they want out of life. We want them to live a happy life with a caring partner, have children, and experience grandchildren for themselves. However, we must pause and reflect on what we are asking of them. Are we basing our children's plans based on what we want for them or what they want out of life?

I've experienced parents who have expectations of their children based on what they want for them, not what their children want. For selfish reasons, parents are looking for their kids to live a certain lifestyle because it's easier for the parent, not the child. Evaluate your motives when you are thinking about what your children "should or should not do." Give your kids space to breathe and space to make decisions on their own.

Do You Have Realistic Expectations for Sobriety?

I can't tell you the number of parents who had no realistic expectations of their children for their recovery. Children are set up for failure when they can't achieve their parent's goals.

Understand that when your child enters into sobriety, they are most vulnerable. They must solely focus on themselves to successfully move ahead in the process and become clean again.

Check out our new website where you can download any episode right from my site along with other useful information for those in recovery.

Share this podcast with a friend and leave us a review!

Show Notes:

[05:41] Conversations I have with parents about talking to their children about recovery.
[08:41] Negative side effects of having a conversation out of fear.
[13:38] Tom recalls the conversation with his dad in which he decided to become clean.
[17:37] Make sure your goals for your children are based on what they want and need out of life.
[23:50] How children decide who is involved in their recovery process.
[27:38] Reasons to reflect on these questions before you talk to your son or daughter.

Episode Links and Resources

Real Recovery Live Chat
Real Recovery Talk on the Web
Real Recovery Talk on YouTube
Leave Real Recovery Talk a review on iTunes
Rock Recovery Center
Real Recovery Talk on Facebook
Ideas for a show? Email us tom@realrecoverytalk.com and ben@realrecoverytalk.com
Podcast editing and show notes by Pro Podcast Solutions

166 - Is Methadone an Effective Treatment Option? Jan 14, 2021

Show notes

Are you considering methadone or suboxone prescription as a way to treat heroin addiction for you or a loved one? Is this a safe way to beat an opioid addiction or will it only make the struggle more difficult? Ben Bueno is a recovering heroin addict shares his experience of being treated with methadone.

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Facebook Support Group RealRecoveryTalk.com/Facebook

165 - How Self Esteem Directly Affects Our Recovery Jan 07, 2021

Show notes

Everyone on the planet is affected by self-esteem in one way or another. Today, Tom discusses how self-esteem in general can influence addiction. In this episode, he talks about what self-esteem is and why positive self-esteem is so important for sobriety and getting and staying sober. He shares his own battle with self-esteem issues and why finding the root cause is so important.

He also stresses that it's a process that needs to be facilitated by a good therapist. He talks about action steps that anyone can take to start building up their self-esteem in a positive way. By the end of the show, you'll be able to understand how the health of one's self-esteem can directly impact whether someone will have or develop an addiction problem.

Show Notes:

[02:03] Just after we did a show on the dangers of Suboxone, we found out that the manufacturers have been ordered to pay a 1.4 billion dollar settlement for negligent marketing.
[04:14] Everybody has self-esteem. It can be good or bad, and it's learned over a period of years.
[04:51] Traumatic events are a driver of negative self esteem.
[05:41] The majority of the way someone feels about themselves will develop during their childhood state.
[06:35] If someone has negative self-esteem growing up, the likelihood of them turning to something like addiction is higher.
[07:43] One of the first things Tom and his team try to do is help clients identify where their negative self-esteem is coming from.
[08:48] Figuring this out comes through therapeutic process.
[09:19] If we can figure out what it is that's causing low self-esteem, we are in a position where we can reinforce positive things to build self-esteem back up.
[09:26] Once self-esteem is built up, it won't be necessary to act out the way an addicted person did in the past.
[11:20] Tom shares his childhood abandonment issues and how when he first began counseling he didn't believe that it was a problem.
[12:12] Once Tom realized that he did have abandonment issues, it was a good place for him to start building upon that.
[14:05] We want to know what happened prior to your drinking and using drugs that made you turn to them in the first place. One of the biggest reasons for this is one's self-esteem.
[14:45] Providing a life that reinforces positive self-esteem will reduce the likelihood of your child turning to drugs and alcohol.
[17:19] Once the self-esteem issues are established, it's time to reinforce and build up things that will encourage positive self-esteem.
[17:33] People have to have some type of sense of identity and sense of security where they are okay with themselves.
[18:00] Community and having friends is a big part of the sobriety process.
[19:03] Take the top five people that you surround yourself with the most and you are the average of those five people.
[19:39] Having a sense of purpose is a big part of the process. Having something to work towards will keep you going when you are sober.
[21:59] It takes internal search to find your purpose. It's also okay to reach out to people and be vulnerable.
[22:48] You also have to feel capable and have a sense of self-confidence.
[23:19] Tell yourself that today might be hard, but you can get through it. If you don't believe this, you'll never achieve it.
[24:22] Make a list of your strengths and things that you have accomplished in the past.
[26:04] Eat good food and exercise. What you put in your body will directly impact the way that you feel.
[26:57] Have some quiet time and go for walks on your own or listen to a podcast.
[27:24] Be clean and take care of yourself and your hygiene.
[27:38] Make sure you're home and living area is clean and organized.
[28:10] Do things that you enjoy. Try things that you haven't done before to see what you like.
[28:35] Doing all of these things will really help to build up your self-esteem.

Links and Resources:

164 - The Unfortunate Truths of Addiction Dec 31, 2020

Show notes

We received two phone calls a couple of days ago that two people we know quite well had overdosed on drugs. One was rushed to the hospital, treated, and released. However, the second person is in ICU and will most likely not make it through his overdose. As a result of these recent tragedies, Ben and I decided to talk about what happens when addicts come to a place where they overdose and signs you can look for to hopefully prevent this from happening to someone you love.

Ben Recalls His Early Days of Addiction

While addicted, his mom would warn him to make sure that his drug source was "OK" because she was worried that his source could be laced with another drug. His mom was concerned, and now, Ben feels the same. When Ben would doctor shop, he knew his opiates would be regulated through a pharmacy.

The "Wash and Rinse Cycle" of Treatment

People will go to treatment, get clean time, and then their tolerance to drugs and alcohol drops as they haven't had their drug of choice in their system for some time. At this point, you can get the wrong combination when you buy drugs off the street and you can easily overdose. It's playing Russian roulette if your drug of choice is opiates and you choose to purchase them off the street.

The majority of clients coming in for treatment have dabbled in opiates, even if their main drug of choice is alcohol. It's rare to see a client that hasn't tried opiate drugs. The primary drugs we see people recovering from at Rock Recovery Center are heroin and opiates, although many identify as an alcoholic.

Relapsing to Drugs Via Alcohol

Alcohol is a gateway drug to other harder street drugs. We've seen people start to drink from an office party, then slide back into drug addiction. Whether or not alcohol has been a problem for someone in the past, if you've been an addict to drugs, you also need to stay away from alcohol so as not to relapse back into your old pattern.

At Rock Recovery Center, we take a humanistic approach to recovery, teaching our clients how to live independently in a sober world. We care about the success and safety of each and every one of our clients from the moment they step into our center to the future of their well-being.

Check out my new website where you can download any episode right from my site along with other useful information for those in recovery.

Share this podcast with a friend and leave us a review!

Show Notes:

[04:41] Differences in drug addicts and alcoholics.
[07:19] The dangers of laced drugs in the 21st century.
[10:08] What it means to have a case of severe jitters when you're addicted.
[14:05] Alcoholics typically die slow, painful deaths.
[16:46] Relapsing into drugs starting with alcohol.
[18:53] The ease of covering up alcoholism as it is socially accepted and easily available.
[22:25] Why alcoholism needs to be recognized as a powerful drug.
[26:38] Addiction needs to have more resources to be combated.
[30:20] This circumstance has been heartbreaking and we don't want to see another person overdose again.

Episode Links and Resources

Real Recovery Live Chat
Real Recovery Talk on the Web
Real Recovery Talk on YouTube
Leave Real Recovery Talk a review on iTunes
Rock Recovery Center
Real Recovery Talk on Facebook
Ideas for a show? Email us tom@realrecoverytalk.com and ben@realrecoverytalk.com
Podcast editing and show notes by Pro Podcast Solutions

163 - Charlie celebrates 2 years of sobriety! Dec 24, 2020

Show notes

Charlie is here today to pick up his two years sobriety medallion at Rock Recovery Center. He is a graduate of our program and has successfully navigated a clean and sober life since leaving Rock Recovery Center. Charlie and his wife chat with us about how Charlie has been living his daily life as a clean and sober society member.

The Beginnings of Charlie's Addiction

At age 13, Charlie left his home and started drinking socially to the point that he was drinking five gallons of alcohol a week. Before he started drinking heavily, he started taking hard drugs. "Once the drinking took off, my addiction became like a wildfire." His portfolio of drugs included "meth, cocaine, crack, acid, shrooms, and I was in for anything that didn't take a needle."

"Balancing" Work-Life and Addiction

At 42, Charlie had to make sure he was clean for his job. "I was a Union carpenter, and I worked in a nuclear facility, so my background had to be squeaky clean, so I could pass the Homeland Security background check." He would work 12 hour days, six days a week. After work, he would drink a few shots, go to sleep, then get up and go back to work. His addiction progressed into drinking in the morning to hold him over until break time at work, where he could drink a few shots, then drink again when he drove home from work.

Switching from Drugs to Alcohol

At first, he was able to "drink like a normal person," and Charlie says that the "alcohol was socially acceptable, so it was easy to get." He felt it was OK to get drunk at home by himself, watching TV, or "playing around in my workshop. I could cut off as many fingers as I wanted to because I was by myself, and it didn't bother anybody." Charlie was a solitary alcoholic and didn't drink around friends or family.

Charlie's Wife Amy and Her Perspective on His Addiction

"When we first got together, he point-blank told me that he was an alcoholic and he likes to drink." She was OK with that until things progressed and they were in a more serious relationship. He started isolating and not paying attention to her or the children. Charlie decided to go to recovery, came back, and then relapsed soon after.

"We live right down the street from a liquor store," so it was easy for Charlie to get a hold of alcohol. They separated, and then Charlie decided to go to Rock Recovery Center for treatment as Amy didn't want to continue the relationship with Charlie's addictive behavior.

Check out my new website where you can download any episode right from my site along with other useful information for those in recovery.

Share this podcast with a friend and leave us a review!

Show Notes:

[02:24] Charlie talks about his childhood and addiction background.
[05:48] He reflects on his history of work and addiction.
[09:57] Amy gives her perspective as a wife of an addict.
[12:15] Charlie remembers driving drunk with his three-year-old grandson in the car.
[14:25] Coming to Florida to Rock Recovery Center was Charlie's first immersive rehabilitation experience.
[19:05] What Charlie is doing daily to continue his successful recovery.
[19:45] Amy's experience with Charlie's recovery and her wedding proposal to Charlie.
[24:28] Living life on life's terms and the importance of reaching out for support.
[28:01] Charlie talks about his solid sobriety foundation.
[31:36] Why life isn't boring when you're sober.
[32:46] Charlie's recommendation on the first steps to sobriety.

Episode Links and Resources

Real Recovery Live Chat
Real Recovery Talk on the Web
Real Recovery Talk on YouTube
Leave Real Recovery Talk a review on iTunes
Rock Recovery Center
Real Recovery Talk on Facebook
Ideas for a show? Email us tom@realrecoverytalk.com and ben@realrecoverytalk.com
Podcast editing and show notes by Pro Podcast Solutions

162 - Ben celebrates 10 years of sobriety!! Dec 17, 2020

Show notes

"I feel that if I didn't take that crappy job that I hated, that I wouldn't be here on the path I was meant to be on." -Ben

Ben's First Two Years in Recovery

Today, Ben and I celebrate Ben's tenth year of sobriety! "Years two through now have flown by for me," says Ben reflecting back on his journey. He remembers his first two years being rough for him as his first two years were a struggle. Ben refers to AA's founder and his recollection of having waves of resentment and self-pity through his process.

Why Ben's First Year Was Extraordinarily Hard

Ben realizes what made his first year so difficult was that he wanted to go back to his comfortable life. This was when he started taking suggestions and takeaways from meetings and other members of the various groups he belonged to in his recovery. Ben encourages others to take advice and try suggestions from successful sober society members to see what works for their recovery. If something doesn't work, they need to note what didn't work and try a new solution.

After two years of sobriety, he created a career change from bartending and personal training to working for a moving company, although he didn't want it as a job choice. He didn't realize that this job would lead him to go to school, getting his degree, and giving him the ability to work with recovering addicts. People realized Ben was owning his own plan and working out of his comfort zone, and they decided to support him.

How Trust Makes Sobriety Work

When you first come "off the street," you don't trust hardly anyone. However, to have a complete recovery, you'll need to put your trust in a few people to support you in your journey. Ben reminds us that we cannot have a successful recovery without trusting others, giving them a chance to "buy-in" to our recovery, and letting them be a part of our team and lead us to a healthier lifestyle.

Listen to Ben's challenges his first two years and how he got through his hardships, how he came to accept "life on life's terms," and how he changed his life's paradigm to create less conflict and justification in his life, which led to his complete recovery.

Check out my new website where you can download any episode right from my site along with other useful information for those in recovery.

Share this podcast with a friend and leave us a review!

Show Notes:

[02:36] Ben celebrates ten years of sobriety!
[03:37] He reflects on his first two years of being clean and sober.
[09:14] Trying new solutions when the previous idea didn't work.
[12:33] Do you really need a job that humbles you?
[14:37] Getting out of your own way and how that can help you in life.
[18:05] Ben's most challenging hardships the first two years of sobriety.
[21:13] What prevented Ben from picking up drugs and alcohol during his recovery.
[25:41] Playing "Simon Says" to stay sober.
[31:07] Confidence in taking action in order to stay clean.
[35:17] Life doesn't get easier, you have to get better at handling life situations.
[38:20] What he does today to stay sober and how sobriety is possible.

Episode Links and Resources

Real Recovery Live Chat
Real Recovery Talk on the Web
Real Recovery Talk on YouTube
Leave Real Recovery Talk a review on iTunes
Rock Recovery Center
Real Recovery Talk on Facebook
Ideas for a show? Email us tom@realrecoverytalk.com and ben@realrecoverytalk.com
Podcast editing and show notes by Pro Podcast Solutions

161 - Why 12-Step Programs Don't Work - And Why They Do Dec 10, 2020

Show notes

If you or a loved one have tried a 12-Step program like Alcoholics Anonymous or Narcotics Anonymous and weren't successful this episode is for you.

Find out what works and what doesn't work in the typical 12-step recovery program.

Our guest, Ron, will also teach you what it takes to conduct an intervention to get someone you love into treatment for their alcohol or substance abuse issues.

160 - Pastor Tullian Tchividjian shares the disconnect between Church and recovery principles - What the Church can learn from recovering addicts Dec 03, 2020

Show notes

"There are two kinds of people in this world: people in recovery who think they're not and people in recovery who think they are."

Tullian Tchividjian

Today, I'll be talking with Tullian Tchividjian, a pastor and active in the addiction community that Ben and I have gotten to know very well. He has come to Rock Recovery Center to share his experience and strength with our clients. Tullian is a pastor for The Sanctuary, a church in Jupiter, Florida.

Tullian grew up in a laid-back Christian home that was supportive and friendly. In the middle of seven children, he always had a family at hand. At the age of 16, Tullian started to dabble in drugs and alcohol. His parents gave him the choice of giving up drugs and alcohol or leaving home. Tullian decided to live life on his own.

First, he enjoyed his newfound freedom. Then, at age 21, he realized "there's got to be more to life than what I'm experiencing." With his parents laying a good foundation, Tullian realized he needed to go back to God, similar to the Prodigal Son story in the Bible. "I was so taken by God's amazing grace and his unconditional love in coming after a train wreck like me that I wanted to spend the rest of my life telling the world about this God."

At the age of 41, his entire world came crashing in with a divorce, losing friends, and book deals. "Dealing with the guilt, shame, regret, and loss of all of this and beginning my life of recovery from this ordeal" felt to Tullian as if he was in recovery and dealing with many of the same feelings although he hadn't been an addict.

His second wife, Stacey, came into his life and was an active part of recovering his life. At this point, non-Christians were the people who helped him feel "less alone," which resulted in Tullian having no interest in leading a church as a pastor again. His belief is that we all have a negative connection to something in this world and that we are all in constant recovery to reach the next level of our own humanity.

Listen to his amazing story of how he came to transform and reinvent himself, his new congregation and his message of Christianity for everyone.

Bio

Tullian is a south Florida native. The middle of seven children, he dropped out of high school and got kicked out of his house at 16 years old. After a few years of running from God, God captured him and gave him a burning desire to reach a broken world with God's boundless grace. He eventually graduated from Columbia International University, where he earned a degree in philosophy, and Reformed Theological Seminary in Orlando, where he earned his Master of Divinity degree.

Check out my new website where you can download any episode right from my site along with other useful information for those in recovery.

Share this podcast with a friend and leave us a review!

Show Notes:

[05:15] Tullian speaks about his background and history.
[08:47] He ended his life of enjoyable freedom from his parents and school at age 21.
[10:14] Tulian finds out that he needs to go back to God to find purpose.
[15:39] How his world came crashing down during his first divorce.
[17:20] His second wife Stacey and how she was the cornerstone of his recovery.
[23:48] The activities Tullian used to fill the void of his life.
[25:20] Tullian's views on why God is in your life even though you may not feel his presence.
[27:45] How shifting blame from himself to others played a role in his recovery.
[31:00] The moment he recognized his freedom for himself.
[38:38] God works with everyone, including "messy" people.
[43:00] How Tullian approaches people that don't buy Christianity.
[50:26] "The only qualification to be a part of Christianity is to admit that you're not qualified."
[51:25] His experience with his younger brother, Antony and Antony's battle with addiction.
[55:14] Tullian says "The best people to lead a recovery center are former addicts."
[58:07] Pastors could get farther and reach more people in their ministry if they were transparent about their shortcomings.

Episode Links and Resources

Real Recovery Live Chat
Real Recovery Talk on the Web
Real Recovery Talk on YouTube
Leave Real Recovery Talk a review on iTunes
Rock Recovery Center
Real Recovery Talk on Facebook
Ideas for a show? Email us tom@realrecoverytalk.com and ben@realrecoverytalk.com
Podcast editing and show notes by Pro Podcast Solutions
Visit Tullian on the web Tulian.net
Twitter TullianT
Facebook TullianT
Instagram TullianTch
Listen to his podcast The Sanctuary

159 - Alex Uslar - Hybrid Performance Method - From Druggie Punk Rocker to Strength Icon Nov 26, 2020

Show notes

Alex Uslar is the manager of the Hybrid Gym and the Director of Operations for the online company Hybrid Performance Method. Alex is a powerlifting, weight lifting, and crossfit coach. The Hybrid Performance Method is a virtual gym that provides accessible, affordable, and effective online workout programs to athletes of all skill and experience levels.

In this episode, we talk about Alex's journey and how he used nutrition and working out to stay sober. Like many addicts, Alex had a rough start and turned to alcohol and drugs. Unlike many, he discovered what he wanted to do at a young age. He was then able to harness that desire and use it as fuel for sobriety. We talk about his journey and how he was able to turn his experience into a positive.

Show Notes

[02:47] Alex is 26 years old, and he just had his 7 years sobriety date.
[02:59] He was born in South Florida and moved to Pensacola when he was 4 years old.
[03:15] When he was 13, he moved to Miami.
[03:44] He had some emotional and psychological abuse when he was younger.
[04:13] He was expelled from private school, and he started public school in the middle of the year.
[04:47] It only took two or three days before kids tried to sell him drugs.
[05:06] He started smoking marijuana.
[05:31] There are people who drink super heavily in the punk rock scene. They're also the straight edge kids.
[05:49] Things escalated after 8th grade for him.
[06:51] His parents are from Venezuela.
[07:18] His family left Venezuela when things got really bad, but his dad stayed over there.
[08:01] Ben and Tom see a lot of clients who have had instability in their lives when they were young.
[09:12] From 13 to 19, Alex's entire life revolved around music and partying.
[10:51] Alex wouldn't change or trade anything that he went through, because without that he wouldn't be where he is now.
[12:49] He dropped out of school and in the process, he got arrested. The counseling he had to go through helped him a lot.
[17:09] He still went down a super destructive path. When he was 19, he wanted to get his act together.
[20:29] The catalyst for him was getting a DM from an older punk rocker who owned a gym. They had similar stories and signing up for the gym was his first day sober.
[21:23] He even realized that he wanted to work at a gym.
[21:53] Staying sober and staying mentally strong and going to the gym was one of the hardest things he did. He had to relearn how to live.
[25:34] He was given an opportunity to do an unpaid internship at the gym. The owner was his mentor in sobriety and coaching. He eventually became one of the head coaches.
[32:06] Follow your passion if you work hard, you have the opportunity to rewrite the script.
[32:46] Taking steps forward can be uncomfortable.
[33:56] Alex became an extrovert as he learned how to sell gym memberships. There weren't any promises that he would get hired. He still worked hard and kept getting more and more work.
[35:44] He ended up with the most personal training clients and made more money than anybody at the gym.
[36:32] He showed so much ambition and desire that he kept growing and growing until h maximized his abilities and income.
[38:52] Alex left his mentor's gym in 2017 to go work for Hybrid.
[40:18] They talked three or four days ago.
[45:18] People come and go in life sometimes.
[47:16] Utilizing fitness and nutrition in sobriety. Alex feels people need something to rely on.
[49:39] He believes that you control your thoughts and your actions.
[52:06] At the end of the day, we are all trying to get to a better place.
[53:58] If you don't want to look for a higher power, find a higher purpose.
[55:46] Alex got sober by working out.
[57:44] He loved seeing his clients transform. Now his social media following has grown.

Links and Resources:

158 - How to approach my loved one to get help Oct 29, 2020

Show notes

Today, I'll be talking about how to handle talking to your loved one to find out if they have a problem with addiction. Parents can have denial about their children's addiction, and family members may not recognize signs of addiction. Find out how you can recognize the signs of addiction and what language to use in the delicate conversation of talking to your loved one who may be addicted to drugs and alcohol.

How we frame our message in the conversation is important, such as, "I want to allow you to get help." Be patient and don't demand that they reach out for help. It is a privilege to be able to have the resources to obtain assistance to become clean. However, many times the addict doesn't want to become clean and sober, even if they can participate in a rehab center.

Be tactful when approaching your loved one. Make sure to have guidance on how to have this conversation. Create an open conversation to not push your child or loved one away from moving them towards recovery.

Also, make sure to have options that you have vetted put into place before you speak with your loved one. If they agree to be treated, you want to keep that momentum going and have options already in place to offer to them. The next step should be readily available, and they should be ready to go within 24 hours of agreeing to treatment.

If they refuse, use leverage points to make them uncomfortable and want to go. For example, if you provide a car, home, food, cell phone, or other necessity, take it away until they decide to recover. When you provide these things for them, it is easier for them to use their cash to buy drugs or alcohol.

Check out my new website where you can download any episode right from my site along with other useful information for those in recovery.

Share this podcast with a friend and leave us a review!

Show Notes:

[03:45] The difficulty of navigating talking to your children about addiction.
[04:57] Does your child recognize that they have an issue with drugs or alcohol?
[06:30] The privilege to have the resources to get clean and sober.
[08:07] How to phrase your concerns - words to use and not to use.
[12:10] Be ready with treatment options so as not to put time in between your loved one agreeing and going to treatment.
[14:26] What to say when they refuse treatment.
[19:45] Don't go into a conversation being hostile.

Episode Links and Resources

Real Recovery Live Chat
Real Recovery Talk on the Web
Real Recovery Talk on YouTube
Leave Real Recovery Talk a review on iTunes
Rock Recovery Center
Real Recovery Talk on Facebook
Ideas for a show? Email us tom@realrecoverytalk.com and ben@realrecoverytalk.com
Podcast editing and show notes by Pro Podcast Solutions

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