Stay ConnectedAnyone paying attention can tell you that our criminal legal system is perpetuating cruelty and harm, but the complexity of the legal world overwhelms most people simply trying to get through another day.
Public Defenseless explores the rot in the justice system and what we can do about it. Join host, Hunter Parnell, as he interviews top defense attorneys and criminal justice stakeholders from across the country as they pull apart the convoluted web of our criminal justice system.
Today, Hunter was once again joined by Chesa Boudin and Eric Fish to discuss a law review article they recently published. This time, they are talking about Public Defenders and the Separation of Powers. While this seems like a law school paper for law school professors, the fundamental question posed by this episode is how Public Defenders can/should increase their political capacity to act as a check on the other branches of government.
Guest:
Chesa Boudin, Executive Director, Criminal Law and Justice Center, Berkley Law
Eric Fish, Professor of Law, UC Davis School of Law
Resources:
Read the Article Here:
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=5198358
San Benito County Report
https://www.ospd.ca.gov/wp-content/uploads/2025/06/2024-IDID-Annual-Report_Final_Accessible.pdf
California Report on Flat Fee contracts
https://www.aclunc.org/sites/default/files/Contracted%20to%20Fail%20report_March%202025.pdf
Contact Hunter Parnell:
Publicdefenseless@gmail.com
@PublicDefenselessPodcast
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Today, Hunter hosted a debate between Professor John Gross and Professor Bob Boruchowitz about the Public Defender National Workload Standards. Back in the spring of this year, John penned an article about some of the methodological and pragmatic issues with the National Workload study. Meanwhile, Bob has been working in Washington for decades to bring meaningful, enforceable workload standards across the state. Today, Hunter spoke with both of them to hear each side of this debate and to try and figure out the best way to use the national workload standards.
Guest:
John Gross, Professor of Law, University of Wisconsin School of Law
Bob Boruchowitz, Professor of Law, Seattle University School of Law
Resources:
John's Article
https://publicdefenders.us/blogs/the-problems-with-the-national-public-defense-workload-study/
John's Faculty Page
https://law.wisc.edu/profiles/john.gross
Bob's Writings
Other Responses to John's Article
https://publicdefenders.us/blogs/the-problem-with-ignoringthe-national-public-defenseworkload-study/
Contact Hunter Parnell:
Publicdefenseless@gmail.com
@PublicDefenselessPodcast
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Today, Hunter hosted a debate between Professor John Gross and Professor Bob Boruchowitz about the Public Defender National Workload Standards. Back in the spring of this year, John penned an article about some of the methodological and pragmatic issues with the National Workload study. Meanwhile, Bob has been working in Washington for decades to bring meaningful, enforceable workload standards across the state. Today, Hunter spoke with both of them to hear each side of this debate and to try and figure out the best way to use the national workload standards.
Guest:
John Gross, Professor of Law, University of Wisconsin School of Law
Bob Boruchowitz, Professor of Law, Seattle University School of Law
Resources:
John's Article
https://publicdefenders.us/blogs/the-problems-with-the-national-public-defense-workload-study/
John's Faculty Page
https://law.wisc.edu/profiles/john.gross
Bob's Writings
Other Responses to John's Article
https://publicdefenders.us/blogs/the-problem-with-ignoringthe-national-public-defenseworkload-study/
Contact Hunter Parnell:
Publicdefenseless@gmail.com
@PublicDefenselessPodcast
@PDefenselessPod
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www.patreon.com/PublicDefenselessPodcast
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Today, Hunter was joined once again by Sharone Mitchell Jr. and Sharlyn Grace of the Cook County Public Defender Office. As we have already seen in Los Angeles and D.C., President Trump is threatening to deploy the national guard to Chicago to combat "crime." Today, Sharone and Sharlyn joined the show to discuss what is actually happening on the ground in Chicago, what the city needs to continue improving public safety, and what Trump's threats are actually about.
Guest:
Sharone Mitchell Jr., Chief Public Defender, Cook County, Chicago, Illinois
Sharlyn Grace, Deputy Public Defender for Policy, Cook County, Chicago, Illinois
Resources:
Liberals and Centrists Biting Off on the Crime Issue
Reports on Cash Bail
https://loyolaccj.org/pretrial-fairness-act
https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/bail-reform-and-public-safety
https://reason.org/wp-content/uploads/the-effects-of-cash-bail-on-crime-and-court-appearances.pdf
Crime in Chicago
https://counciloncj.org/crime-trends-in-u-s-cities-mid-year-2025-update/
https://www.chicago.gov/city/en/sites/vrd/home/violence-victimization.html
Contact Hunter Parnell:
Publicdefenseless@gmail.com
@PublicDefenselessPodcast
@PDefenselessPod
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Today, Hunter was joined once again by Professor Eve Primus. This time, Eve joined the show to discuss her newest law review article "Burdens of Proof in Criminal Procedure." At first glance, this might seem like a boring, technical legal topic, but the burden of proof is often the only thing that matters in a criminal trial. As Eve points out, the entire case can hinge on who has to prove what and when they have to prove it.
Guest:
Eve Primus, Professor of Law, University of Michigan School of Law
Resources:
Read Eve's Work
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=5136879Amanda's Faculty Page
Contact Eve
https://michigan.law.umich.edu/faculty-and-scholarship/our-faculty/eve-brensike-primus
Contact Hunter Parnell:
Publicdefenseless@gmail.com
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@PDefenselessPod
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Today, Hunter was joined by Professor Amanda Savage to discuss her latest law review article "The Pseudoscience of Gun Hunting". In the article, Amanda explains the cop created "Characteristics of an Armed Person" training that cops undergo to identify who may or may not have a weapon. As with many cop created "sciences," CAP is the perfect tool for police to use if they want to stop, search, and frisk someone for any reason or no reason at all.
Guest:
Amanda Savage, Professor of Law, Denver University School of Law
Resources:
Read Amanda's Work
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=5148151
Amanda's Faculty Page
https://www.law.du.edu/about/people/amanda-savage
Contact Hunter Parnell:
Publicdefenseless@gmail.com
@PublicDefenselessPodcast
@PDefenselessPod
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Today, Hunter was Renae Alt-Summers and Mekka Jeffers-Nelson to discuss the payment stoppage for Criminal Justice Act Panel Attorneys. Just like state public defender systems, the federal public defender system relies on private defense counsel to take conflict cases and serve as the primary way to deliver public defender services. Yet as of the start of July, those CJA panel attorneys have had payments stopped, and those payments aren't set to come back online until at least October. So, what will happen to the federal public defender system now and in the future?
Guest:
Renae Alt-Summers, CJA Panel Rep, Federal District of South Carolina
Mekka Jeffers-Nelson, CJA Panel Rep, Federal District of Western North Carolina
Resources:
Contact Renae and Mekka
mjnelsonlaw@aol.com
raltsummers@gmail.com
Read More About the Freeze
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/defense-lawyers-needy-clients-congressional-funds-dry-up/
https://www.wacdl.org/blog_home.asp?Display=14
https://www.fd.org/news/funding-crisis-leaves-defense-lawyers-working-without-pay
Contact Hunter Parnell:
Publicdefenseless@gmail.com
@PublicDefenselessPodcast
@PDefenselessPod
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Today, Hunter was joined once again by Grant Miller, Salt Lake City Public Defender and Representative of Utah's 24th House District. Last time that he was on the show, Grant was running for office. Now, Grant joins to discuss how his first legislative session went. From passing a bill to reduce fines and fees to helping ensure the Overton window didn't shift too far to tough on crime side, Grant gives us a reason to be optimistic even when we hold minimal political power.
Guest:
Grant Miller, Public Defender and Utah House Representative, Salt Lake City, House District 24
Resources:
Contact Grant
https://www.grantmillerforhouse24.com/
https://www.instagram.com/grantistheguy/?hl=en
Contact Hunter Parnell:
Publicdefenseless@gmail.com
@PublicDefenselessPodcast
@PDefenselessPod
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Today, Hunter was joined by Crystal Leff-Piñon, Director of TIDC's family protection representation unit. On Tuesday, Hunter and Scott Ehlers discussed the funding problem and attorney shortages leading to a slow moving crisis in rural Texas. Today, Crystal joins to share how similar the issues are for family defense throughout the state of Texas.
Guest:
Crystal Leff-Piñon, Director, Family Protection Representation, Texas Indigent Defense Commission
Resources:
TIDC Website:
https://www.tidc.texas.gov/about-us/who-we-are/staff/ehlers-scott/
Contact Crystal
CLeff-Pinon@tidc.texas.gov
Contact Hunter Parnell:
Publicdefenseless@gmail.com
@PublicDefenselessPodcast
@PDefenselessPod
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Today, Hunter was joined once again the Texas Indigent Defense Commission Executive Director, Scott Ehlers. This time, Scott and Hunter explore a slow moving crisis in Texas Public Defense: an absolute lack of attorneys in rural parts of the state. As with so many states with large rural areas, attorneys are retiring faster than they can be replaced. Scott and his team at TIDC tried to get more funding from the legislature, but as it stands now, the legislature does not seem to be taking this issue as seriously as they should. So what will happen to public defense in rural Texas?
Guest:
Scott Ehlers, Executive Director, Texas Indigent Defense Commission
Resources:
TIDC Website:
https://www.tidc.texas.gov/about-us/who-we-are/staff/ehlers-scott/
Contact Scott
SEhlers@tidc.texas.gov
Read more about Problems in Rural Public Defense
https://ppri.tamu.edu/portfolio-items/justice-beyond-the-cities/
https://www.texastribune.org/2025/02/27/texas-rural-public-defense-indigent/
Contact Hunter Parnell:
Publicdefenseless@gmail.com
@PublicDefenselessPodcast
@PDefenselessPod
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Donate on PayPal
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Trying to find a specific part of an episode? Use this link to search transcripts of every episode of the show!
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