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**PRETEND**

PRETEND is an investigative true crime podcast about real people who lie for a living — con artists, scammers, and the victims caught in their web.

Hosted by journalist Javier Leiva, PRETEND exposes the human psychology behind deception and fraud. Each episode follows a real case of manipulation — from financial scams and Ponzi schemes to digital hoaxes and emotional cons

PRETEND explains how and why deception works without shaming victims, combining ethical journalism with cinematic storytelling.

Featured in lists of the best podcasts about con artists and scams, PRETEND investigates crimes of persuasion, trust, and betrayal. New episodes drop regularly with stories that reveal how manipulation shapes modern life, both online and off.

PRETEND is produced by Creative Babble, LLC.

© 2026 Creative Babble LLC

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Latest Episodes:

S410: The Norco Bank Heist part 1 Jul 19, 2019

Show notes

This is the story of the 1980 Norco bank robbery—one of the most violent bank heists in U.S. history.

Remarkably, only three people died. However, 30 police cars and one helicopter were torn apart by bullets.

In this episode, you’re going to hear from some of the people who were there that day at the Security Pacific Bank.

This wasn’t your typical bank robbery. George Smith, the mastermind behind the heist, believed the rapture was coming.

His gang of bank robbers was armed with military-grade weapons. The police never stood a chance. I mean, it was a downright war zone. Why would George Smith go to such extremes just to rob a bank?

We’re going to spend the next two episodes trying to get inside the mind of George Wayne Smith. Who was he? And what motivated him to orchestrate such an insane bank robbery? And how did they finally catch him, the following day in the canyons, heading to the Mojave Desert?

Buy a copy ofNorco '80: The True Story of the Most Spectacular Bank Robbery in American Historyby Peter Houlahan on Amazon or wherever you get your books.

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Story idea?

If you have a story to share, email Javier a voice memo or short written description at info@pretendradio.org.

For more episodes like this visit pretendradio.org.

To get early releases and bonus episodes go to pretendradio.org/donate

This episode was written and produced by Javier Leiva

Edited by Molly Clay

Music by Blue Dot Sessions

Theme music by Joe Basile and thechicken.net

Support for this episode is brought to you by BetterHelp.

BetterHelp

Is there is something that interferes with your happiness or is preventing you from achieving your goals? Connect with your professional counselor in a safe and private online environment.

Betterhelp.com/pretend

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S409: The Psychic Vampires Jul 03, 2019

Show notes

Susan Gerbic says that psychics are grief vampires—taking advantage of our broken hearts.

She asks, “Why isn’t anybody doing something about this?” Susan Gerbic is just like you and me. She has a normal job working as a baby photographer. But at night, she is a badass vigilante hunting psychics. Susan says, “One of my favorite things to do is try to expose people we call grief vampires. People who claim to speak to the dead.”

Her motivation is not to settle a vendetta. In fact, she says she’s never really been the target of a psychic. Susan simply doesn’t like them and the way they profit off of people’s grief. The US market for psychic services is worth about $2 billion annually according to IBIS World, a market research firm based in Los Angeles California.

On this episode of Pretend, Susan attempts to capture psychics lying on tape. These psychic hunters spent months setting up fake Facebook pages, hoping that a so-called psychic uses the falsified information during a psychic reading. It took a few tries, but she finally got one on tape.

Links:

Silvia Browne gets punked by skeptic Mark Edward

Tim Braun (psychic)

Chip Coffey (psychic)

Thomas John (psychic)

New York Times article:

Inside the Secret Sting Operations to Expose Celebrity Psychics - The ...https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/26/magazine/psychics-skeptics-facebook.html

Support for this episode is brought to you by BetterHelp.

Is there is something that interferes with your happiness or is preventing you from achieving your goals? Connect with your professional counselor in a safe and private online environment.

Betterhelp.com/pretend

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Story idea?

If you have a story to share, email Javier a voice memo or short written description at info@pretendradio.org.

For more episodes like this visit pretendradio.org.

To get early releases and bonus episodes go to pretendradio.org/donate

This episode was written and produced by Javier Leiva

Theme music by Joe Basile with thechicken.net

Additional music by Glad Rags

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

S408: The Psychic Kids (James Randi and Project Alpha) Jun 19, 2019

Show notes

In 1979, two high school kids claiming to be psychic managed to fool parapsychology researchers at Washington University using simple magic tricks and sleight of hand. Little did the scientists know, these kids were just amateur magicians pulling a fast one on them.

Today, these kids are grown. Their names are Steve Shaw, who now goes by the stage name Banachek, and Mike Edwards. But back in 1979, they were seen as boys with exceptional abilities. They were planted in the parapsychology research study by the magician and skeptic James Randi. They coined this stunt Project Alpha.

The parapsychology lab at Washington State University was called the McDonnell Laboratory for Psychical Research. The lab ran a long series of experiments ranging from moving objects in sealed glass domes to controlling clocks and creating images appear on unexposed film. Banacheck and Edwards say they received no training from James Randi. They had to rely on their instincts and come up with illusions on the fly.

During their time at the McDonnell research institute, they followed one rule—always tell the truth if you’re ever asked whether they were faking the results. They kept this ruse going for almost three years.

This is part of my series on Psychics. Part 1 features my conversation with Uri Geller.

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Links

EXPLORATORY RESEARCH WITH TWO NEW PSYCHIC METAL BENDERS

Transcribed from Research in Parapsychology (1981), pp. 144-146

Peter R. Phillips and Mark Shafer† (Washington University)

http://www.aiprinc.org/documents/PS.pdf

McDonnell Laboratory press release after the revelation

http://www.aiprinc.org/documents/CIA_on_Randi.pdf

Parapsychological Weapon - NSA Memo

Project STARGATE

https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/document/nsa-rdp96x00790r000100030042-9

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Written and Produced by Javier Leiva

Theme music by Joe Basile with thechicken.net

Additional music by Podington Bear and Glad Rags

Additional audio provided by Banachek's Brain podcast

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Story idea?

If you have a story to share, email Javier a voice memo or short written description at info@pretendradio.org.

For more episodes like this visit pretendradio.org.

To get early releases and bonus episodes go to pretendradio.org/donate

Support for this episode is brought to you by BetterHelp.

Is there is something that interferes with your happiness or is preventing you from achieving your goals? Connect with your professional counselor in a safe and private online environment.

Betterhelp.com/pretend

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

S407: The Psychic Spy (featuring Uri Geller) Jun 05, 2019

Show notes

In 2017, The Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) released more than 12 million pages of declassified documents online. Some of these documents pertained to the self-proclaimed psychic spy Uri Geller.

The documents revealed a CIA funded study at the Stanford Research Institute revolving around psychokinesis. Psychokinesis is the ability for someone to move objects with the power of their minds. Why in the world would the CIA, arguably the world’s most elite spy agency, want to study psychics?

I interviewed Uri Geller about his time at the Stanford Research Institute. We spoke about his childhood, discovering his supernatural abilities, his involvement with spy agencies like the Israeli Mossad, and many other unbelievable events.

You have to remember, this all took place in the 1970s. Governments were more open to exploring the supernatural. Even the Soviet Union reportedly hired psychics to spy on their enemies.

But not everyone was eager to seek the help of psychics. Johnny Carson invited Uri Geller on The Tonight Show and it was a total disaster. Uri Geller could not perform his most basic tricks. What happened? Uri Geller says it was a hit job.

To learn more about Uri Geller, check out The Secret Life of Uri Geller. It's a fascinating documentary.

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Story idea?

If you have a story to share, email Javier a voice memo or short written description at info@pretendradio.org.

For more episodes like this visit pretendradio.org.

To get early releases and bonus episodes go to pretendradio.org/donate

Theme music by The Chicken

Additional music by Podington Bear, Glad Rags, Blue Dot Sessions

Written and produced by Javier Leiva

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

S406: The Bounty Hunter Part 2 May 22, 2019

Show notes

Jack Saltarelli is a bounty hunter who also happens to be a former fugitive.

In part one of the Bounty Hunter, a judge sentenced Jack to 20 years in prison for a drug offense. After failing to appeal the judge’s decision, Jack decided he wasn’t going back to prison.

Instead, Jack Saltarelli moved to Pennsylvania and started cooking meth in a mountainside cabin. When he wasn't cooking meth, Jack was hiding in plain sight on national television. He was volunteering as a search and rescue crew members looking for victims of the Atlanta Monster, serial killer Wayne Williams.

This is a wild story, so I don't want to spoil it for you. Hear how the FBI finally caught up to him.

Special thanks to former agent Jerri Williams with the FBI Retired Case File Review podcast for introducing me to Jack. I would also like to thank former FBI agent Judy Tyler and Jack Saltarelli for sharing their stories.

Jack Saltarelli with agent Judy Tyler and the FBI[/caption]

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Story idea?

If you have a story to share, email Javier a voice memo or short written description at info@pretendradio.org.

For more episodes like this visit pretendradio.org.

To get early releases and bonus episodes go to pretendradio.org/donate

Credits

Pretend is produced by Javier Leiva

Theme music by The Chicken

Additional music by Blue Dot Sessions

Promos this week for A Date with Dateline

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S405: The Bounty Hunter Part 1 May 07, 2019

Show notes

Jack Saltarelli is a bounty hunter. His job is to hunt down fugitives. Any given day, he’s going after rapist, murderers, and people who skip court. Most bounty hunters carry lethal weapons, but not Jack. He goes door-to-door carrying a stun gun and a training revolver that fires rubber bullets.

You may be asking yourself what’s the difference between a cop and a bounty hunter? First, bounty hunters have more authority than local police. Cops have jurisdictions, and they need warrants in order to enter your home. Bounty hunters, on the other hand, can hunt you down anywhere, and they can even barge into your homes if they have to.

How can they get away with this? Simple. Let’s say you get arrested and sign a bail bond contract to get out of jail. The moment you sign that contract, you’re waiving your constitutional rights.

I met up with Jack at his bail bonds office in Gulfport, Mississippi. Let’s just say that Jack isn’t your ordinary bounty hunter. His story is much more complicated than that. Find out the secret Jack Saltarelli has been hiding for more than 30 years.

Part 2 is available right now for my Patreon supporters.

Retired FBI Agent Jerri Williams

You know, people always ask me, “Javier, where do you find these stories?” The answer is all sorts of places. But not this one. I learned about this story from my podcast from my friend Jerri Williams. Jerri is a retired FBI agent who has a podcast called FBI Retired Casefile Review. You may remember Jerri from the episode with the telemarketing con artist named Carl. If you haven’t check out FBI Retired Casefile Review, do yourself a favor and subscribe. Jerri is on every week featuring real former FBI agents describing their case. She is the real deal. You can listen to Jerri's interview with Jack Saltarelli and retired FBI agent Judy Tyler here.

Also, you should check out her new book, it’s called FBI Myths and Misconceptions: A Manual for Armchair Detectives. Jerri debunks clichés and misconceptions about the FBI in books, TV, and movies.

And thank you to you for helping me fund this story. If it weren’t for my Patreon supporters, I couldn’t be able to support the flight down to Gulf Port, MS, or the rental car and hotel. Seriously, this story was great because I was able to be there with Jack. If you want to hear more stories like this, please consider donating one dollar to the show. It really goes a long way.

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Story idea?

If you have a story to share, email Javier a voice memo or short written description at info@pretendradio.org.

For more episodes like this visit pretendradio.org.

To get early releases and bonus episodes go to pretendradio.org/donate

Credits

Pretend is produced by Javier Leiva

Theme music by The Chicken

Additional music by Blue Dot Sessions

Promos this week for Beyond the Obituary and Spy Stories Podcast

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

S404: The Soccer Mom Apr 24, 2019

Show notes

Every night, Marie Walsh had the same nightmare.If only she could roll over and tell her husband the truth. But she can’t. Tonight, she’s going to have to suffer alone.

Marie says, "I had a dream where they were chasing me and chasing me." But one night, Marie's nightmare was different.

"I finally got away. I was finally free, and they wouldn't be able to catch me. And I woke up feeling really happy. After all those years of being a nightmare, I'd finally gotten away."

But what was Marie running from? After all, she was just a middle-aged suburban mom who lived an unremarkable life.

"I was a middle-aged mother of three in a suburb of San Diego, California. I was a soccer mom. That's kind of what I did."

Every day revolved around her kids. "It was not that glamorous or exciting."

It was just this very average life. An average life that she’s worked so hard to keep. But one night, her recurring nightmare returned. Except for this time she was wide awake.

Find out the secret that kept Marie running for more than 30 years.

After the episode, make sure to read the book: A Tale Of Two Lives: The Susan LeFevre Fugitive Story

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Lies, lies, and more lies

A few seasons ago, I asked you to submit stories about lies. Either lies that you’ve told or lies that have impacted you personally. And boy, was the response crazy! I ended up making a whole episode dedicated to lies. I want to try it again. Email me a voice memo. Chances are your story could make it on the show.

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Story idea?

If you have a story to share, email Javier a voice memo or short written description at info@pretendradio.org.

For more episodes like this visit pretendradio.org.

To get early releases and bonus episodes go to pretendradio.org/donate

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

S403: The One Who Got Away Apr 10, 2019

Show notes

Peter Pan syndrome is when someone refuses to grow up.

It’s neither a disease nor a recognized mental disorder—it’s just a state of mind. Today, you're going to meet a man who became a fugitive in order to live in his very own Neverland.

Larry Douglas Jones is not your typical fugitive. He had a wife and three kids. And to be honest, he's not a dangerous man. He became overwhelmed with life and decided to run away.

This is the first in a series of stories about fugitives running from the law. This season, we’ll explore how abandoning your old identity leads to a whole set of complications. How do these criminals assume a new identity? What strategies do they use to avoid getting caught?

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This episode was 100% funded by you.

I was able to travel to Gulfport, MS for this story using funds raised on Patreon. So if you’d like to see me to take the show on the road, consider chipping in a buck or two on our Patreon page. Plus, you’ll get access to early episodes and bonus content. So, thank you so much for the support.

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Lies, lies, and more lies

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Story idea?

If you have a story to share, email Javier a voice memo or short written description at info@pretendradio.org.

For more episodes like this visit pretendradio.org.

To get early releases and bonus episodes go to pretendradio.org/donate

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

S402: The Shawcross Letters Feb 20, 2019

Show notes

Arthur Shawcross is one of America's most notorious serial killers. This is the story about one of his closest friends. Who do you turn to when your deepest fantasies involve murder and cannibalism? It's an affliction most people can't relate to—unless you're a serial killer. For John Paul Fay, that confidant was a killer named Arthur Shawcross. In a series of letters, Fay confesses to Shawcross his desire to kill, yet he never crosses that line.

My friend John Taylor interviewed John Paul Fay and asked him, what keeps him from acting on his disturbing urges. This episode is frightening. If you enjoyed it as much as I did, please check out the Twisted Podcast. You won't be disappointed.

The episode you're about to listen to is borrowed from the Twisted Podcast with John Taylor. You can read John Paul Fay's book titled the Shawcross Letters: My Journey Into The Mind Of Evil.

*Warning this episode contains extremely graphic material including descriptions of murder and cannibalism.

Listen to my full conversation with John Taylor on my Patreon feed.

Alison Sweeney joins us to talk about the Shawcross Letters and her new project “Chronicle Mysteries” on Hallmark Movie and Mysteries.

The host of a true crime podcast embarks on her latest project, and uncovers a decades-old murder while investigating a mysterious disappearance, in “Chronicle Mysteries: Recovered,” a new original premiering Sunday, February 17, (9 p.m. ET/PT) on Hallmark Movies & Mysteries. Alison Sweeney (“Days of Our Lives,” “The Biggest Loser”) executive produces and stars, along with Benjamin Ayres (“Saving Hope”).

The Chronicle Mysteries: Recovered premieres Sunday, February 17 at 9pm/8c

The Chronicle Mysteries: The Wrong Man premieres Sunday, February 24 at 9pm/8c

The Chronicle Mysteries: Vines that Bind premieres Sunday, March 3 at 9pm/8c

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S401: The Commander Jan 30, 2019

Show notes

Abby Ellin didn't know it yet, but the man she was about to marry was a compulsive liar living a double life. She was duped—hard.

In this bonus episode, we talk about her story and why she's now obsessed with con artists.

Abby Ellin is a New York Times contributor and author of Duped: Double Lives, False Identities and the Conman I Almost Married.

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Stick around to the end of the episode to listen to a preview of Pretend season 4.

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Story idea?

Susan Gerbic says that psychics are grief vampires—taking advantage of our broken hearts.

Story idea?

Story idea?

In 2017, The Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) released more than 12 million pages of declassified documents online. Some of these documents pertained to the self-proclaimed psychic spy Uri Geller.

Story idea?

Jack Saltarelli is a bounty hunter who also happens to be a former fugitive.

Story idea?

Jack Saltarelli is a bounty hunter. His job is to hunt down fugitives. Any given day, he’s going after rapist, murderers, and people who skip court. Most bounty hunters carry lethal weapons, but not Jack. He goes door-to-door carrying a stun gun and a training revolver that fires rubber bullets.

Story idea?

Every night, Marie Walsh had the same nightmare.If only she could roll over and tell her husband the truth. But she can’t. Tonight, she’s going to have to suffer alone.

Lies, lies, and more lies

Story idea?

Peter Pan syndrome is when someone refuses to grow up.

Story idea?

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