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    Earth Sciences

    Minds Behind Maps

    Maps Are Everywhere.
    These are conversations with those building them.

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    Copyright: © 2022 - Maxime Lenormand

    • Apple Podcasts
    • Google Play
    • Spotify

    Latest Episodes:
    Steve Coast: Discussing the Future of Maps & Tech with the Founder of OpenStreetMap (& why he thinks maps will disappear) - MBM #30 Oct 01, 2022
    Show notes

    Steve Coast is the Founder of OpenStreetMap, one of the most successful open source projects; started in 2004 and now used everywhere from Apple's Maps, Mapbox and even Pokemon Go recently. Steve has worked at places like Microsoft, TomTom, Telenav & Digital Globe.

    We talk about the future of mapping and Tech in general as well as how Steve thinks maps will disappear.
    Buckle up this is a long one, but well worth it.

    I highly recommend you watch this one on YouTube

    ---

    Episode Sponsor: OpenCage
    Use OpenCage for your geocoding needs with their API.
    They have a generous Free trial you can sign up to!

    ---

    About Steve:

    • LinkedIn
    • Twitter

    Shownotes

    • OSM timelapse over England from Geofabrik
    • Peter Thiel: Zero to One
    • Mark Zuckerberg on The Joe Rogan Experience
    • Naval
    • Cellular Automaton
    • Rule 110 (not 238 as I eluded to)
    • John Boyd
    • The book of OSM
    • Stephen Wolfram
    • Neal Stephenson: The Diamond Age
    • James Dyson: Invention: A Life
    • The 48 Laws of Power
    • Jonathan Livingston Seagull by Richard Bach
    • Podcast Recommendation: EconTalk
    • Book Recommendation: Travels by Michael Crichton

    Timestamps

    03:47 - Conversation begins, Steve Describes Himself
    06:30 -Why Does Steve think he's Good at Predicting Trends
    12:22 - Steve's Predictions for the Future of Maps
    21:36 - Maps will Disappear
    26:46 - Incentives for a Location Based Social Media
    33:26 - Steve's Detachment to Maps
    38:17 - Past Achievements as Mental Frameworks
    50:37 - The Start of OpenStreepMap
    59:33 - Why Did OpenStreetMap work (and not other projects)?
    01:04:44 - Simplicity Over Anything Else
    01:17:05 - How does one build Simple Products?
    01:20:35 - The influence of Cellular Automaton
    01:25:18 - Pushing One's Self to Think Outside the Box
    01:32:53 - Steve's Understanding of Maps when he started OSM
    01:36:38 - Everything is Illegal, Except Tech
    01:52:40 - Steve's Current Interests
    01:58:00 - Crypto, Why it's At Least Worth Paying Attention To
    02:03:22 - Putting Maps on the Blockchain, and Why You'd Even Want to Do That
    02:12:13 - The Next Thing that Will Kill OpenStreetMap
    02:21:10 - All the Maps are the Same Today, But Don't Need to Be
    02:31:28 - Believing (or Not) in Early Projects
    02:33:38 - Advice for (not Only) Young People
    02:44:53 - Steve on Podcasts
    02:49:02 - Steve's Book Recommendations

    Feel free to reach out!
    - Website
    - My Twitter
    - Podcast Twitter
    - Previous Newsletter: Why I want to do more interviews in person
    - Sponsor the Podcast
    - Edited by Peter Xiong. Find more of his work


    Muthu Kumar & Aleksander Buczkowski: Building an Independent Media over the long term: Geoawesomeness - MBM #29 Sep 15, 2022
    Show notes

    Muthu Kumar & Aleksander Buczkowski are the Editor-In-Chief & Managing Editor (and creators) of the Geoawesomeness website, which has been running as an independent geospatial media for the past 11 years.

    More about Muthu & Aleks:

    • Muthu's Twitter
    • Muthu's LinkedIn
    • Aleks's Twitter
    • Alek's LinkedIn

    And of course find more on the Geoawesomeness website

    ---
    Episode Sponsor:
    Element84
    Dan Pilone’s appearance on the podcast
    ---

    Time stamps

    00:00 - Introduction
    02:30 - Muthu & Aleks describing each other
    05:40 - What is Geoawesomeness
    10:40 - Geoawesomeness's Early Days: 2011
    14:40 - Impacts of Writing
    15:45 - Muthu & Aleks’s story of meeting up
    22:00 - Choosing Topics to Cover
    28:01 - Ambitions & Thoughts being a Media Company
    32:13 - Going Full Time
    39:15 - Making money on the Internet
    50:30 - Being Open about Business Models
    57:40 - Privacy/ethics of geospatial data
    1:07:26 - Finding the Right Partner
    1:12:10 - The of social media (TikTok & YouTube)
    1:18:45 - Advice for younger people
    1:27:20 - Books & Podcasts recommendation

    Shownotes

    • GeoMundus

    Books & Podcast Recommendations:

    • Four Thousand Weeks: Time Management for Mortals by Oliver Burkeman
    • Peak Performance: Elevate Your Game, Avoid Burnout, and Thrive with the New Science of Success by Brad Stulberg
    • Rational Reminder

    Feel free to reach out!
    - Website
    - My Twitter
    - Podcast Twitter
    - Previous Newsletter: Why I want to do more interviews in person
    - Sponsor the Podcast
    - Edited by Peter Xiong. Find more of his work


    Kevin Pomfret: Ethics Isn't Enough & The Case For Geospatial Law - MBM #28 Sep 01, 2022
    Show notes

    Kevin Pomfret is a Space and Spatial Corporate and Transaction Attorney at Williams Mullen and one of the references in terms of Law around spatial data & within the geospatial community more globally.

    --- Episode Sponsor:
    Element84
    Dan Pilone’s appearance on the podcast
    ---

    About Kevin:
    - LinkedIn
    - Twitter
    - More about him

    Shownotes:
    - Geospatial World's Ambassador of the Year
    - CCPA: California Consumer Privacy Act
    - GDPR: General Data Protection Regulation
    - Locus Charter
    - Github Copilot
    - Books & Podcasts:
    - Space Business Podcast
    - Author: Carlos Ruiz Zafón

    Timestamps:
    00:00 Introduction
    02:11 Kevin Presents Himself
    06:33 Geosptial Law back in the Early 2000s
    09:43 The Satellite Imagery is a Tricky Legal Problem
    14:24 Law-markers don't yet understand the Nuances of Location Data
    17:38 Getting Individual Consent for Location Data doesn't always make sense
    20:26 Law is Hard to Get a Grasp Over
    26:10 Kevin's Critical view on the Current Focus on Ethics
    31:37 The Differences between Ethics & Law
    34:17 Why is the Geospatial Community so Focused on Ethics over Law?
    40:48 The Impact of Covid on Location Data Law
    45:42 Location Data Law Issues go Way Beyond Covid
    46:56 How Laws get Written
    49:35 Getting Laws Changed
    53:33 International Dynamics
    56:09 Teaching Geospatial Law & Ethics
    01:08:29 Book & Podcast Recommendations

    Feel free to reach out!
    - Website
    - My Twitter
    - Podcast Twitter
    - Previous Newsletter: Why I want to do more interviews in person
    - Sponsor the Podcast


    Jeffrey Lewis: The Work of an Open Source Intelligence Researcher: Keeping Goverments Accountable - MBM #27 Aug 15, 2022
    Show notes

    Jeffrey Lewis is a Professor at the Middlebury Institute of International Studies at Monterey and one of the most influential people in the Open Source Intelligence Community. He is also the host of the "Arms Control Wonk" podcast.

    ---

    Episode Sponsor: Element84
    Dan Pilone’s appearance on the podcast

    ---

    About Jeffrey:
    - Twitter
    - LinkedIn

    Shownotes:

    • Dino Brugioni
    • Seeing the Secrets Growing the Leaders
    • HawkEye 360 GPS Interference
    • Yandex changing the borders on maps
    • Jeffrey’s Tweet announcing the invasion of Ukraine an hour before it happened
    • Jeffrey’s podcast: Arms Control Wonk
    • Books & Podcast Recommendations:
      • The Mapmakers by John Noble Wilford
      • The Essentials of SAR: A Conceptual View of Synthetic Aperture Radar and Its Remarkable Capabilities by Thomas Ager
      • BBC Witness History

    Timestamps:

    00:00 Introduction
    02:42 Conversation begins: Jeffrey is an Open Spy
    05:05 The appeal of doing Intelligence Analysis in Public
    09:36 Jeffrey's OSINT early days: the War in Irak
    16:49 An example of 'bad OSINT'
    20:49 The Tricky Nature of Confirmation Bias
    25:05 How an OSINT Story Starts
    28:10 Being Right, or at least Wrong for the Right Reasons
    30:30 Reputation in reporting, especially in the Open
    35:55 Monitoring for news
    39:26 Machine Learning in OSINT
    41:37 The Difficult Yet Informative Nature of Synthetic Aperture Radar
    47:58 Partnering with Satellite Image Providers
    59:22 Satellite images yes, but they're only 1 component
    01:06:40 The use of Open Satellite Imagery Data
    01:17:55 Teaching OSINT
    01:25:07 The ever faster increase in our access to Data
    01:29:40 Filtering out the crap
    01:33:20 Knowing who to trust: The Ukraine use-case
    01:37:43 How Jeffrey's team called out the Russian Invasion 1h before it happened
    01:43:21 The power of Companies
    01:48:52 Funding & How to Stay Independent
    01:52:51 Advocacy
    01:59:00 The tools used for OSINT
    02:07:48 The Surprising Impact of Ukraine on the Public's View of Nuclear Dissuasion
    02:10:54 Nuclear weapons are not fun, like really not
    02:14:18 Working with a Community
    02:17:37 Jeffrey's podcast: Arms Control Wonk
    02:22:51 Books & Podcast Recommendations

    Feel free to reach out!
    - Website
    - My Twitter
    - Podcast Twitter
    - Previous Newsletter: Why I want to do more interviews in person
    - Sponsor the Podcast


    Jean-Martin Bauer: How Data Enables the World Food Program to Effectively Feed a Country - MBM #26 Aug 01, 2022
    Show notes

    Jean Martin Bauer is the Country Director for the World Food Programme in Haiti, where his job is in simple terms to ensure the population does not run out of food. This conversation focuses on the use of data - specifically satellite imagery & maps - and how it helps feed the country.

    ---
    Episode Sponsor: Element84
    Dan Pilone’s appearance on the podcast
    ---

    About Jean-Martin:

    - Twitter
    - LinkedIn
    - World Food Programme

    Shownotes:

    • World Food Program
    • Hunger Map
    • WFP’s Prism
    • WFP’s Van Project
    • FEWS NET: Famine Early Warning System Network
    • Stanford’s Monica Lam
    • Jean-Martin Bauer on the Humanitarian AI Today Podcast

    Books & Podcasts Recommendations:

    • Masters of the Dew by Jacques Roumain (”Gouverneurs de la rosée” in French)
    • Stuffed And Starved: Markets, Power And The Hidden Battle For The World Food System by Raj Patel
    • Humanitarian AI Today Podcast

    Time-stamps:

    - 00:00 Introduction 01:53 Conversation Starts: Jean-Martin presents himself
    - 03:08 Humanitarian Geography
    - 10:31 Jean-Martin's current role: WFP's Haiti Director
    - 16:39 How do we know the food situation in a country?
    - 21:10 Gathering Data To Understand the Food Situation in a Country
    - 26:18 Modelling at a Global & Local level
    - 31:03 Distributing Data is also hard
    - 32:14 Getting people involved
    - 35:56 Online Human Rights
    - 40:34 What New Space means for WFP
    - 45:21 What's in it for Private Companies to work wit NGOs?
    - 48:57 Building Trust when Predictions come First from Machine Learning
    - 52:25 Disruption is Not Always the Goal
    - 53:32 Financing Collecting Data in the Humanitarian World
    - 01:01:19 The Role of Data for Jean-Martin's role as Country Director
    - 01:05:56 Making Hard Decision when Numbers represent real People's Livelihood
    - 01:09:58 Jean-Martin's Critical Look on the Data Science Community
    - 01:14:19 Books & Podcast Recommendations
    - 01:17:16 Outro

    Please feel free to reach out, I truly do want to hear what you think of this :)
    - Website
    - My Twitter
    - Podcast Twitter
    - Previous Newsletter: Why I want to do more interviews in person


    Indra Den Bakker - Overstory & Tackling Climate by Monitoring Vegetation with Satellite Data - MBM #25 Jul 15, 2022
    Show notes

    Indra Den Bakker is the CEO & Co-Founder of Overstory, a company providing vegetation information to electric utility companies about the state of (mostly) trees around power lines by using high resolution satellite imagery. This can lead to prevention of wildfires by finding hazardous vegetation before it falls on a line.

    ---
    Episode Sponsor:
    Element84
    Dan Pilone’s appearance on the podcast
    ---
    About Indra:
    - Twitter
    - LinkedIn
    - Overstory
    Shownotes:
    - Kaggle
    - Planet
    - Global Forest Watch
    - Vandersat’s Acquisition by Planet
    Book recommendations;
    - Regeneration: Ending the Climate Crisis in One Generation by Paul Hawken
    - The Overstory by Richard Powers


    Timestamps:

    00:00 - Teaser
    00:29 - Introduction
    02:18 - Conversation begins, Indra Describes Himself
    05:20 - Indra's description of Overstory
    08:44 - The Story of Overstory
    10:57 - From a Kaggle Competition to Founding a Company
    13:54 - Talking to Customers in Early Days
    16:58 - Find Product-Market Fit : Why utility companies?
    19:37 - Finding a Sweet Spot in the Imagery Resolution - Price trade-off
    22:02 - Deciding to build a product, not focusing on imagery
    28:34 - Bringing in a dedicated designer in an early stage data start-up
    30:12 - Finding focus as a company
    33:44 - Could Earth Observations Companies ever have millions of customers?
    36:13 - Could Overstory get to more consumer facing applications?
    39:58 - Failures along the way
    42:14 - Moving from bootstrapped to taking investment
    44:31 - Staying on the Mission while raising money & losing control
    47:49 - Preventing Green-washing
    53:20 - What does Indra do today?
    55:42 - The transition from Data Scientist to CEO
    58:56 - Does a Data Scientist background help as a Leader?
    01:00:14 - Hiring
    01:04:12 - Deciding to become a Remote First Company
    01:07:20 - Building a start-up in a post-covid recession
    01:11:15 - A supermarket analogy to the Earth Observation industry
    01:15:57 - Is Indra worried of data providers eating into downstream company's business?
    01:18:20 - Balancing exits strategies with keeping on a Mission
    01:19:51 - Newly public space start-ups are going down in valuation
    01:23:45 - What is Overstory's current main challenge?
    01:25:44 - Dealing with number of employee growth: Not knowing what everyone does anymore
    01:34:00 - Book & Podcast recommendations
    01:35:48 - Having the same company name as book
    Please feel free to reach out, I truly do want to hear what you think of this :)
    - Website: https://mindsbehindmaps.com/
    - My Twitter: https://twitter.com/MaxLenormand
    - Podcast Twitter: https://twitter.com/MindsBehindMaps
    - Previous Newsletter: Why I want to do more interviews in person


    Catherine Nakalembe - Food in Stores Isn't Enough: Food Security in Africa - MBM #24 Jul 01, 2022
    Show notes

    Dr Catherine Nakalembe is an Associate Research Professor at University of Maryland and the Program Head of NASA Harvest Africa. We talk about some of her work on using satellite imagery for Food Security in her home country of Uganda & how she got into this field in the first place.

    ---

    Episode Sponsors:

    • Element84
      • Dan Pilone’s appearance on the podcast

    ---

    About Catherine:

    • Twitter
    • LinkedIn
    • Website

    Shownotes:

    - NASA Harvest
    - Catherine’s Bio on University of Maryland’s website

    Books & Recommendations:

    - The New Humanitarian

    - BBC Discovery

    - Africa Today

    - Little Stories for Tiny People

    - Catherine’s appearances on Science in Action

    - Leadership Journey

    - The Divide by Jason Hickel

    - Jason Hickel’s Twitter

    Time-stamps:

    00:00:00 Introduction
    00:02:04 Conversation begins: Catherine describes herself
    00:08:19 Starting by wanting to play badminton
    00:20:45 Wanting to work back in Uganda
    00:24:32 How Catherine got into Food Security
    00:32:15 What even is Food Security?
    00:34:14 The Role of Remote Sensing in Food Security
    00:37:58 Who benefits mapping food security?
    00:44:23 How do people on the ground perceive insights from satellites?
    00:48:54 Creating insights that actually get used
    00:52:43 You can't improve what you can't measure
    00:55:41 The Double-Edge Sword that comes with Remote Sensing at Scale
    01:00:52 Not getting lost in the Maps
    01:03:32 Incentives: Working from a University in the US, helping Uganda
    01:10:40 The relationship between Private & Public sector in regards to Climate Change
    01:13:13 The Government as the main Private Sector's Government
    01:20:10 Story Telling as a Source of Change
    01:27:02 Inspiring & Helping Others
    01:30:53 Books & Podcast recommendations

    If you want to hear more about me & the podcast:

    • My Twitter
    • For news about the podcast
    • Website

    Emily Darling & Kim Fisher - The Challenges of Mapping Coral Reefs When Satellites Can't See Them - #MBM 23 Jun 15, 2022
    Show notes

    Emily Darling & Kim Fisher both work at the Wildlife Conservation Society, respectively as the Director of Coral Reef & as Spatial Analyst. They have developed MERMAID, a platform enabling coral reef scientists to aggregate & share their data together. One of the main challenges they tackle being most measurements need to happen in the field as opposed to being able to leverage satellite imagery.

    ---

    Episode Sponsors:

    • Radiant Earth Foundation: Apply for the 2022 Radiant MLHub Impact Award for agriculture-related applications for Africa - with a $5,000 cash prize.
    • Element84
      • Dan Pilone’s appearance on the podcast

    ---

    About Emily:

    • LinkedIn
    • Twitter

    About Kim:

    • LinkedIn
    • Twitter

    World Conservation Society

    Shownotes

    • MERMAID
    • Wildlife Conservation Society
    • Allen Coras Atlas
    • SparkGeo
    • Books & Podcast Recomendations:
      • We can do hard things
      • Where should we begin
      • Song Exploder
      • Data Feminism: https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/data-feminism
      • Here GOES Radiotelescope
      • Mannahatta/Welikia:
        • book: https://www.amazon.com/Mannahatta-Natural-History-York-City/dp/1419707485/
        • website: https://welikia.org/

    Timestamps

    • 00:00 - Introduction
    • 03:07 - Kim & Emily presenting themselves
    • 07:49 - Computer Science & Data at the service of Science
    • 17:30 - A symbiotic relationship Software Engineering & Marine Biology
    • 23:38 - High level overview of what MERMAID is
    • 26:52 - What problem does MERMAID solve?
    • 32:28 - Getting traction on a scientific tool
    • 37:37 - Stories on top of the data
    • 46:00 - Another simple question: Why is coral reef important?
    • 49:55 - Working with Policy Makers
    • 55:28 - Coral Reef is still measured with pen & paper
    • 1:01:55 - Partnering with SparkGeo, a geospatial consultancy
    • 1:10:54 - Thinking about projects over the long term
    • 1:12:45 - Financing a Non-Profit project
    • 1:19:40 - Transparency in Non-Profits through Open-Source
    • 1:25:45 - The impact of Data Science on Emily’s work
    • 1:29:01 - Book & Podcast Recommendations

    Feel free to reach out!

    • My Twitter
    • For news about the podcast
    • Website

    Arjen Vrielink - Getting to Zero Deforestation with Satellite Images - MBM #22 Jun 01, 2022
    Show notes

    Arjen Vrielink is the Director & co-founder of Satelligence, dedicated to stopping deforestation by leveraging satellite imagery. They work directly with commodity companies who sell things like cacao or coffee to understand the causes of deforestation and how alternatives can be found.

    About Arjen:

    • Twitter
    • LinkedIn
    • Satelligence

    ---

    Episode Sponsors:

    • Radiant Earth Foundation: Apply for the 2022 Radiant MLHub Impact Award for agriculture-related applications for Africa - with a $5,000 cash prize.
    • Element84
      • Dan Pilone’s appearance on the podcast

    ---

    Shownotes:

    • Zero to One by Peter Thiel
    • Kate Raworth’s Doughnut Economics
    • Planet Acquiring Vandersat
    • Range by David Epstein
    • Steve Ballmer
    • Up and Down the Ladder of Abstraction by Bret Victor
    • xkcd: Adjective Foods
    • Superforecasting by Philip E. Tetlock, Dan Gardner
    • Book recommendations:
      • Man’s Fate (La Condition Humaine) by André Malraux
      • The Stranger (L’Etranger) by Albert Camus
      • The Plague (La Peste) by Albert Camus
      • The Mandarins by Simone de Beauvoir

    Timestamps:

    00:00 - Introduction

    02:55 - Conversation Begins

    07:56 - Arjen quoting me to describe work environment

    13:02 - The origin story of Satelligence

    17:45 - What Satelligence does

    19:05 - Remote Sensing to solve deforestation: Solution looking for a Problem?

    26:48 - Data comes in to convince bosses

    34:38 - Financial incentives & shareholders

    40:27 - How Satelligence makes money & long term vision

    45:02 - Why Satelligence decided to raise a first round after a few years

    51:25 - Downsides to raising

    55:14 - What happens to the mission after an exit?

    59:30 - Creating a work culture

    1:03:43 - Lunch is more important for your culture than your Strategy day

    1:13:17 - Hiring

    1:17:47 - Why Arjen hired me as an intern

    1:29:48 - Open Source in Geospatial

    1:42:28 - Importance of technical knowledge in leadership roles

    1:44:36 - Layers of Abstraction

    1:51:16 - Committing to one specific thing

    1:57:18 - Why maps aren’t (always) the best way to communicate insights

    2:06:43 - Geospatial is incredibly niche

    2:12:57 - Book recommendations

    2:21:15 - Asking for advice

    Feel free to reach out!

    • My Twitter
    • For news about the podcast
    • Website

    Barbara Ryan - How Landsat Became Free & Open - MBM #21 May 15, 2022
    Show notes

    Barbara Ryan was instrumental in the policy change in 2008 that opened up the Landsat data to being freely & openly available for anyone to access. This resulted in more than 100x uptake in the number of imagery downloaded and fundamentally changed the Earth Observation industry.

    She is currently the Executive Director of the World Geospatial Industry Council

    ---

    Episode Sponsors:

    • Radiant Earth Foundation: Apply for the 2022 Radiant MLHub Impact Award for agriculture-related applications for Africa - with a $5,000 cash prize.
    • Element84
      • Dan Pilone’s appearance on the podcast

    ---

    About Barbara:

    • Twitter
    • LinkedIn

    Shownotes:

    • We recorded this interview while Barbara was in Amsterdam for the Geospatial World Forum
    • Landsat policy change document
    • Gilberto Camara at the time Chief of INPE: Brazilian National Institute for Space Research
    • Mark Mayers, former Director of USGS
    • World Geospatial Industry Council
    • GEO: Group on Earth Observations: the organization, not the field ;-)
    • Books recommendations:
      • Ender’s Game by Orson Scott Card
      • Snow Crash by Neal Stephenson

    Timestamps:

    00:00 - Introduction

    02:56 - Importance of in-person conversation

    05:52 - Connecting people

    08:00 - Reaching people beyond languages

    10:43 - Landsat pre-2008: before it was free & open

    19:09 - Impact of the giving the data away for free

    21:51 - Details on the policy change: push-backs & financial incentives

    28:43 - The direct impact on the USGS

    30:39 - International collaboration

    32:32 - Domino Effect: The impact of Landsat on offer Open Data Policies

    36:02 - Potential unexpected negative effects

    37:41 - The scale of the impact opening up Landsat had

    41:13 - Don’t use data as your transactional currency

    44:14 - Making satellite imagery accessible beyond the data

    52:00 - Distributing data as easily as possible

    57:07 - Spicy politics story involving the Secretary of Interior

    1:04:21 - Open Data should not be taken for granted

    1:11:31 - Thoughts on Commercial Earth Observation

    1:14:16 - Open Data Policies for Commercial EO: Parallels with the Gaming Industry

    1:23:18 - Improving Communications in Science

    1:28:41 - Earth Observation could learn to tell stories from the Gaming Industry

    1:34:21: Barbara’s current role

    1:39:04 - Being better ambassadors of Geospatial

    1:42:32 - WGIC’s funding model

    1:45:36: - Barbara retiring only to come back multiple times

    1:51:12 - Book recommendations

    1:53:21 - Advice for younger people

    Feel free to reach out!

    • My Twitter
    • For news about the podcast
    • Website

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