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Episode Summary This week on Live Like the World is Dying, Emil talks to Margaret about life on Svalbard. They talk about hiking in the Arctic, staying warm, gear, the unfortunate realities of climate change, and the rising conflicts between humans and polar bears. Guest Info Emil (He/they): a masters student on Arctic Outdoor life. Host Info Margaret can be found on twitter @magpiekilljoy or instagram at @margaretkilljoy. Transcript LLWD: Emil on Arctic Hiking Margaret: Hello and welcome to Live Like the World is Dying, your podcasts for what feels like the end times. I'm one of your hosts, Margaret killjoy. And this week, we're going to talk about snow and ice and moving across them. And I'm probably gonna ask about glaciers. And we're gonna talk about all that stuff. And I'm really excited because we're gonna be talking about how to move over Arctic terrain, which might be everywhere in the future. I mean, everything's getting warmer, but like, you know, everything's getting wackier. So things might get different. Do you need crampons? I don't know. I'm gonna find out. And that's what we're going to talk about. But first, we're proud member of the Channel Zero Network of anarchists podcasts. And here's another jingle from another jingle...Here's a jingle from another show on the network. [Makes noises that sound like singing a melody] Margaret: Okay, we're back. So, if you could introduce yourself with your name, your pronouns, and then a little bit of your background as to why I'm having you on the show. Emil: Yeah, sure. So, my name is Emil. I go by he/him or they/them. I have a bachelor's degree in Arctic Outdoor Life and Nature Guiding from the University of Tromsø in Northern Norway. And I'm currently doing a master's degree, also in Outdoor Life, at the University of Southeastern Norway. Margaret: Okay, so this means that you spend your time with a sledge and fighting polar bears? And penguins. Is that correct? [Said with dry sarcasm. Emil laughs] Emil: There have been sledges and polar bear guard standing involved. But the penguins are on the other side of the planet unfortunately. We don't have penguins up here. [Laughing] Would be cool, though. Margaret: Yeah, I mean, because then you can have the polar bears and the penguins hanging out and the Far Side comics would be complete. Okay, so yeah, so you're a guide, or like, you know, so this is one of the things that you do is you take people out and show them how to move over this terrain and show them how to explore. Like, is this like tourists? Is this like, scientists? Is this people who got lost in the snow on their way home? Like, I don't really know what...I've never been in Norway. This is gonna come across. Emil: Yeah, no, it could be, it could be all those things. It could be guiding on scientific expeditions, it could be taking tourists on trips, or it could be more like, you know, like summer camps and things of that nature. Which, is more like...not as hardcore. So you have sort of, it's a broad range of sort of different levels from summer camps with kids that's really sort of safe to the two week long expeditions in the Arctic, skiing, where you really have to sort of take care of yourself and the people around you and you have to be sort of on guard. Margaret: Okay, yeah. And so I kind of want to ask you about...I mean, basically a lot of my questions are just like how do you move over Arctic terrain? Like what is involved? How do you get...how do you practice? Like, is it...is everything like snowshoeing? Is it cross country skis? Is it like, dogs and sleighs? Is it reindeer pulling the sleighs? Like what's...I'm making jokes, but I also know there's reindeer up there. Emil: Actually, actually, you can. You can actually do reindeer sledding. Some people do that. Margaret: Whoa. Emil: But yeah, really, in Northern Norway, the northern most county, there is a yearly reindeer sledding competition, actually. So that is the thing that some people do. But it's...Yeah, dogs sledding and skiing, I think, are the most common for long distance. If you're moving, sort of in forests, then snowshoes can be advantageous. But if you're moving any sort of distance, it's going to be cross-country skis, or we call them mountain skis. They're a bit broader. They're a bit wider than normal like racing skis, or dog sledding. Yeah. Margaret: So, like for my own selfish reasons--it's unlikely that I will specifically need to be moving...escaping an apocalypse in Northern Norway--like that seems not incredibly likely but something that does, like, within my own selfish...when I think about it, I'm like, "Well, what if I had to move over some mountains?" Right? Like, what if? And that seems like, the kind of thing that could theoretically come up in my life or just could be fun, right? What's involved in starting to learn that stuff? Like both, like, how does one? Like when you take someone out and you're like, "Here's some snowshoes?" Is it like a? Does it take people hours to figure them out? Is it like, pretty quick? Like... Emil: It's...I think it's pretty intuitive often. A lot of the outdoors sort of pedagogy or the philosophy of learning is learning by doing. So, it's getting hands on experience and just sort of trying it, obviously, putting people in an environment that's challenging enough that they feel a sense of accomplishment and mastery but not so challenging that they die. Margaret: Okay, that's seems like a good way to learn. Yeah. Emil: Yeah. So it's...What's involved in learning it? I think a lot of it does come from from childhood, at least if you live in the north, sort of something you grew up with. But I think it's kind of just like, getting out there. And then I know, there's skiing courses and stuff that you can take if you want to learn, like technique. Margaret: Yeah. Okay. Well, if I like had to, like, Lord of the Rings style cross a mountain pass, do I want skis? Or do I want snow shoes? Or do I want the Ring of Power? Like? Like, like, if I'm just crossing a mountain...Like, obviously, if I'm going to be like moving overland in the far north, it would be way better if I had skis, it seems to be the case. But like, if I'm just trying to like cross a mountain pass, do I need skis? Emil: Well, I think it depends on the...I think it's going to depend on the time of year and the snow depth. So you don't necessarily need skis. You can walk through the snow with just your normal shoes, not even snow shoes. But, it's probably going to be faster on skis. And additionally, you would probably want, at least if if you're going to be out for more than a day and you're going to be out for several days, you'd want something called a pulk instead of a backpack. A pulk is just a sled. So you pull the sled after you instead of carrying a backpack. It helps with stability. You can carry more, which typically, winter equipment is heavier. So it is advantageous to pull the sled. Margaret: Okay. Yeah, cuz one of the reasons...I think, I think that you commented, like, we posted an episode recently with an ultralight through hiker, right, and I think your comment was something like, "Whoa, things are different in America," or something like that. And, and so that's why I reached out to you. So, it's like, I'm curious, your reaction to concepts of like weight and ultralight and stuff like that. And I guess when you're carrying a pulk you, like...weight probably still matters, but in a very different way? Emil: Yeah. At least when it comes to when it comes to winter in the Arctic, you want equipment that sturdy. It's quite often specialized equipment as well. So, on average, it's going to be a bit heavier. So doing ultralight isn't necessarily feasible. So I think it's going to depend on sort of the environment you're in. Moving ultralight in a temperate forest, I think is probably more feasible. Like in, I don't know, the Appalachian Trail or the parts of the PCT, right? But, it's it's also a thing where the arctic environment is kind of inhospitable in the sense that there isn't a lot of available energy in the environment. So if you think about walking through temperate forest, right, you have firewood and there might be some food and stuff that you can forage, right. So energy both in the sense of fuel for heat and in the sense of calories, right? If you think about moving across a snowy mountain plateau, it's sort of a barren, it's kind of like an ice desert. You have to carry all of that energy with you, the fuel, the gasoline, the food, everything. So, it's necessarily going to be heavier. Margaret: Wait, what's the gasoline for? Emil: The gasoline is for stoves for burning. Yeah. Margaret: Oh, okay. Emil: Both for heating food and heating the tents. Margaret: Okay. Okay, so then...this is so much to think about. Obviously the way people do this now is probably very differently from the way people did this a hundred years ago or something, right? Like, I assume that a hundred years ago people probably bringing like--well, actually probably they were still bringing oil stoves a hundred years ago, actually, now that I think that through--rather than, like...people aren't hauling their firewood. People are instead hauling oil to burn? Is that? Emil: Yeah, yeah. Or is it kerosene? The sort of oil? Margaret: From wax? Emil: Yeah. Margaret: Burnable wax. Paraffin wax. Okay, yeah. Um, I'm trying to think there's like so many things I.... Emil: I know, it was different, like, the sleeping bags were made of reindeer skins and stuff, you know? Margaret: Yes. Yeah. And so it's probably lighter equipment now than it was 100 years ago? I assume that's like... Emil: Yeah. Margaret: Okay, what kills people? Like, besides probably everything, but like, what is the? Like, what are the like, main things you're worried about? Like, if I'm like, walking through the snow, am I gonna like just like, fall into the snow and then die? Like, I know, there's like avalanches to worry about...Like, like, I read a lot of like, "And then everyone went hiking, and then there's snow. And then they all died. And it was Russia. And people still argue about what happened to them. And they all went mad." Now, I can't remember where it was from. Emil: Yeah, the Dyatlov pass incident, I think it's called. Yeah, that I think was confirmed to be an avalanche. Or the the main theory now is that was an avalanche. That can....actually this actually a good example. Margaret: Yeah. Do you want to explain to the audience because if people have no idea what we're talking about, what are we talking about? Emil: Yeah, it was a group of people in Russia that went on a hike and they all died. And it's been sort of...it's been sort of a mystery for quite some time, what actually happened to them. Right. So there's been a lot of like, conspiracy theories and stuff. But, to the question of sort of what kills people: what killed them, the the predominant theory now is actually a, I believe, a combination of an avalanche and subsequent hypothermia. Okay. So they're...what we believe is that their tent was caved in by an avalanche, which then made everyone super wet, and super cold, and without shelter. And so they became hypothermic, and essentially, became so hypothermic that--and this is what happens when you become really, really, really cold, you start to feel warm, which is called the sort of...I think it's called the hypothermia paradox, right, which is when people, towards the end, they get so cold that they feel warm, they take off all their clothes and then they succumb... Margaret: Die. Emil: Yeah, to the cold. Alright, so the main things to worry about, I would say, are avalanches. So, if you're moving in terrain that is steeper than 30 degrees, or moving...then that's sort of the avalanche zone and then you have a zone below that where the avalanche could...the run out zone that you have to worry about. And then you have hypothermia, of course, just being cold. And hypothermia can be sort of a slow and insidious killer because it can actually creep up on you over the course of several days. Margaret: Yeah. Oh, interesting. Emil:Yeah, it can. And then the last one is carbon monoxide poisoning. Margaret: Oh, from like burning stuff inside your tent? Emil: Yes. Margaret: Or your snow cave. Emil: Yeah, from burning stuff inside the tent or the snow cave when you have, for example, a gasoline burner that isn't burning properly. So the flame is, if the flame is yellow, that means that it's an impure...the...it's not a...it's not a complete complete combustion, as opposed to when the flame is blue. So blue flame means less carbon monoxide. Carbon monoxide is tasteless, colorless gas. It's a heavy gas that settles below, sort of on the floor. And it takes up the place of oxygen in your blood. So, your blood transports oxygen through your body. But, when the body takes up carbon monoxide there is no more space for oxygen, essentially. The body thinks it's oxygen, and so what happens is that you actually, your brain becomes oxygen depleted. You become dizzy, tired, you can begin to hallucinate, and just generally your decision making ability degrades. Margaret: You sound like you're speaking from experience. EmilI have, I have woken up one time with sort of...you get these, you can get these sort of black spots under your nose almost from a night of sleeping in it. Yeah. And I was kind of dizzy after, that day. Margaret: Okay, but do you all have a like, and maybe it would be in Norwegian and not in English, but do you have like a like, like, "Flame is blue, that'll do. Flame is yellow, you're a dead fellow." Like, is there like... that's the one I just made up. But like... Emil: It was very good. I don't think we do, actually. We should. Yeah, no, we're not that creative. Margaret: Okay, you got to work on that. Emil: Maybe it's something to do with our Norwegian language. I don't know. Margaret: I literally don't know word of Norwegian. So I can't...That's annoying. I'm like, I usually know how to say at least like, "Thank you," and, "Fuck you," in like most languages. Emil: You know, it's quite similar, actually, because English is a mix between, I think it's...there's some Gaelic in it, and then there's Norwegian, and Danish, and Swedish, and French, right, because of all the different groups of people that invaded England and settled there over the history. So it's, you say, "Egg," I say, "Egg." [rhymes with "dig"] You say, "Window," I say, "Vindu." So, it's quite similar. Margaret: Okay, how do you say "thank you"? Emil: Takk Margaret: Takk. Okay. I think I have heard this before. Or is it? Maybe it's similar to Swedish or something? Emil: Yeah, they're mutually intelligible. Margaret: Oh, interesting. That's good to know. My tiny bit of Swedish. Emil: Swedes and Norwegians can talk to each other. Margaret: As everyone in the audience learns that Margaret doesn't know shit about Norway. I know way more about Finland. Okay, so. So, the question then is like, okay, why do you burn stoves inside? Is it just because you fucking need to? Because there's like, otherwise you'll freeze to death? Emil: You don't, so you don't necessarily ne…
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