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Episode Summary Margaret and Agatha talk about mutual aid in Ukraine and Agatha's experience trying to go there to fight in an anti-authoritarian platoon, but ending up doing a bunch of mutual aid supply distribution work instead. They talk about he intricacies of relief work and some of the special circumstances in Ukraine. Heavy content warning on this episode. Towards the end of the episode around 46:00, Agatha starts to tell a really intense story about being in a war zone. Around 56:00 is when it begins to get graphic. Guest Info Agatha (they/them) can be found on IG @jalutkewicz You can donate to their mutual aid work on venmo @agathawilliams or on Paypal @jalutkewicz@gmail.com Host Info Margaret can be found on twitter @magpiekilljoy or instagram at @margaretkilljoy. Publisher Info This show is published by Strangers in A Tangled Wilderness. We can be found at www.tangledwilderness.org, or on Twitter @TangledWild and Instagram @Tangled_Wilderness. You can support the show on Patreon at www.patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. Transcript Agatha on Ukrainian Mutual Aid Margaret 00:14 Hello and welcome to Live Like the World is Dying, your podcast for it feels like the end times. I'm your host, Margaret Killjoy. And I'm really excited about this week's interview, I am going to be talking to an old friend of mine from quite a while back who haven't talked to in a while about what's involved in anarchists mutual aid in war zones, and specifically, Ukraine, and in the things that are going on there. Yeah, I'm really excited for you all to hear this conversation. But first, I'm excited for you all to hear that we're a proud member of the Channel Zero Network of anarchists podcasts. And here's a jingle from another show on the network. Margaret 01:13 This is Margaret, from the future, coming back to say that this episode deserves a content warning near the end of the episode and there'll be some heads up. We will be talking about, "Hey, so I hear you were attacked." That part contains graphic descriptions of war and violence. And so listener discretion is advised. Margaret 02:05 Okay, we're back. So, if you could introduce yourself with your name, your pronouns, and then kind of a brief description of why you are in a good place to talk about anarchists mutual aid in places of active conflict. Agatha 02:20 So my name is Agatha. My pronouns are they/them. Yeah, I went over to Ukraine last year about this time to do mutual aid support with anti authoritarian units and anarchists units. Things got fucked up on my way over there. So, that wasn't a possibility any longer. So, I just started doing aid runs with a convoy of other solo operators who went over there to try and do something to help alleviate the suffering of folks. Yeah, I'm here to talk about that. Margaret 02:57 So one of my questions about that, is, what do these aid runs look like? I'm under the impression there are different organizations working to try to get new vehicles and armor and all of these things that, you know, to frontline units, to anti authoritarian units. And these are like, organizations from outside Ukraine that are like sending people and supplies to then deliver the supplies? Like what does this look like? Agatha 03:25 Yeah, so me and a few other folks went over there with a group of cash all of our own, you know, what I mean, and we use that for operational costs, which was, you know, feeding ourselves buying diesel in Poland. And then we worked with some more wealthy sympathizers to the cause, who, one person we worked with owns a distribution company, and they have a giant fucking warehouse in Warsaw, Poland. And, you know, they would make sure items that needed to get to folks close to the frontline, where bigger NGOs wouldn't go, could get things that they needed that were not getting there, i.e. like medicine, sanitary products, food, you know, and then later on body armor and diesel. So, this person would basically...they have a bigger organization that looks a lot friendlier on their website, and you can go and donate money and it has pictures of like Ukrainian kids smiling. So, the run would start like this, we'd get a text from this wealthy patron and they'd be like, "Alright, I've organized another run," you know, "Meet me at my warehouse Saturday at four in the morning and bring four vans," you know, "and eight drivers." And like, we wouldn't know where we're going. We wouldn't know what we're doing. And then we'd get there at four in the morning and then there'd be all these like, gnarly angry Polish dudes just like moving boxes around and making piles. And then the, you know, the person who lead everything and orchestrated everything, she's just a very strong, amazing woman. And she would come out and just start barking orders and be like, "You, you're driving this van, and you're putting all this in your van, but like, I have some other shit to hide at the bottom of the pile. So don't load it yet," you know, "load this van." And then she'd like really quickly, have one of her cronies, bring out a pallet full of body armor inserts that were like, made at a metal shop out of like, AR500 steel that can withstand 556 and 762 rounds. Margaret 05:31 Yeah, gun Twitter will be very upset about this. Agatha 05:35 What's that? Margaret 05:36 I said gun Twitter will be very upset that they're using steel. Agatha 05:40 I know. But if you're out there fucking around, you want something more than nothing, and it's not gonna spatter, AR500 is at least not going to spatter on you, you know what I mean? Yeah, it's not going to create any spalding. But, that regardless, you know, she did her own research on what steels are like the most bulletproof and then she fucking contacted a metal shop with a brake press that could you know, bend quarter inch thick steel that was hardened. And then she had them plasma cut out the designs that fit into vests that she had manufactured from different tailors around Poland, you know, it was just like, it was 100%, DIY, you know, ballistic vests. And it was just amazing. And she'd be like, "Alright, you're delivering all this, like toilet paper, and ibuprofen, and like, you know, baby food to this one location, then you're going to meet with my people at this location, and you're gonna give them these 10 boxes," you know, and those had whatever in them. I never asked, you know, but and then she'd be like, "Give them these 50 vests," you know, "they have like a poorly equipped unit that needs them. They have a mortar unit that's taken a lot of casualties because they're so ill equipped," like, blah, blah, blah. And then she'd be like, "Also, the next van, we're gonna fill it with all toilet paper. But, at the bottom of the toilet paper pile, we're gonna hide 300 gallons of diesel, you know, in these little containers." Margaret 07:02 Why are you hiding it? Agatha 07:05 Because there's like tariffs involved with transporting body armor and transporting fuel across conflict zone lines, apparently. I don't know very much about it. I just know that like, there was like, a big to do. And you had to file a lot more fucking paperwork that took weeks and weeks, if not months to get like 50 fucking vests across the border, and then to the east of Ukraine. Whereas she was just like," I don't give a fuck, you're going there anyways." I mean, she was crazy. She was like, linked up, she'd be like, "Alright, these are your things you need when you get to the border. If you get there early, wait till 5:30 shift, change or whatever. And wait till this one dude is working. Show him this paperwork, and he's gonna let you through without giving you hassle or looking in your van. If you go at other times, I can't guarantee you're gonna get through without a hassle." So, she had stuff going on, that I didn't know about. And I didn't care to ask about. I was just into helping and I was good enough just bringing food and medicine. You know. When I found out we were bringing other shit and like hiding it. I was like, "Oh, that's cool." I was like, "I'm into it. Like, I'm sketchy. Like, I'm down." you know? And so we just like, we would wait, we'd pack up all the vans at four in the morning when we met her there. And then there was a few Polish dudes who would run the convoy once we were on the road. And we all had radios. So, it's like, you know, head convoy dudes like, "You guys got to pick it up, we need to make better time." or people in the back would be like, "Hey, head of convoy slow down, we're losing ya." Yeah, because all our shit was painted drab green and had the organization we were working for plastered all over the side of it. So, we wanted to look like a convoy while we were in Poland and the West of the country, and stick together. And then once we'd get across the border, and hit Lviv, you know, then it scattered and we would take magnets off, and we didn't want to look like a convoy, because convoys get targeted and like, all this other junk. So we had basically leave Warsaw at like five or six in the morning, we'd drive for fucking ever, we'd get to the border, we'd sit there forever, you know, we'd give our slips to the guy we were supposed to give them to, they would just wave us through, they wouldn't search our shit. And then we drive fucking forever to Lviv. And then at Lviv, we'd unload like 80% of the stuff, you know, four out of six in the convoy would go back to Warsaw. And then you know, I was generally one of the ones who would go further east. So, I'd stick around, we'd get coordinates to a new warehouse that we didn't know about, and then we would go refill our vans and Lviv with other shit going further east. And then from there, we'd hit Kyiv. We'd drop a bunch of shit of in Kyiv. If we were transporting vehicles, we'd bring them to the specific units that was asking for them, basically just four by four vehicles that can carry around and a little Assault Squad through mud and shit that they didn't have. And then we'd deliver that shit. And then, you know, we'd spend a night in Kyiv and then we'd get more coordinates the next day. We'd go to another warehouse. We'd fill it up with whatever the fuck was planned for us. And then all this is going on while we are like doing our own shit. Like, last time we were in Zolochiv, they needed salt because their bakery had run dry of salt. They had everything to make bread for the frontline troops except for salt. So, they're like, "We need three vans worth of salt" you know, "We need like 5000 pounds of salt." So, we'd be like moving our salt around to make room for our wealthy patron's shit that she wanted to go to specific units that she had friends in, or whatever that were hard up. You know? So we were just have to like, juggle shit around. And then like, make sure everything fit, throw our 50 gallon drums of diesel on the fucking roof of the car and siphon it out and fill our fucking tanks back up, because you just can't get diesel in Ukraine when we were there. So we had to smuggle in all the diesel for the entire trip. And then, we'd be on our way again. And then we'd eventually get to Kharkiv or wherever, in the far east of the country, get rid of all our shit. And then just like, usually pick up some passengers who wanted to get the fuck out of Kharkiv or wherever the fuck they were, and bring people back and get them out of sketchy situations. And then we'd slowly make our way back to Poland. And we didn't really stop when we were driving. So, some days we drive for like 48 hours straight or some couples of days and then we would take naps and switch out drivers. But on the way back, it was a little more relaxed, like we'd get a hotel or something like in between Kharkiv and fucking Kyiv and try and take showers and get like a good night's rest and then whatever. And then we finally make our way back to Warsaw or Krakow, wherever our next pickup was. We'd rest for 24 hours without doing shit. We would just eat food sleep, nap, like fucking whatever the fuck we felt like doing. Go on walks. Then we'd get another another call from from our person who was funding a lot of this and she'd be like, "Meet me at the warehouse, Tuesday at 1"30 in the morning and bring seven vans this time," you know, so yeah, that's pretty much the cycle that was going on when I was there. Margaret 12:42 Yeah. Okay, so I have a bunch of questions about this. There's so much that's curious to me. Yeah, one of them is like, like, what's in it for this lady? Like, I don't know, if you want to like out her specifically or whatever. But like, it's international solidarity? Is it like... Agatha 12:57 I couldn't tell. Margaret 12:58 Is it just like, we don't want Ukraine to fall because then we think we're next? Is it just the same reason you're there, we just got to fucking help each other? Like, what's going on? Agatha 13:09 So, everything I gathered from talking with this person was that she just like, thought what was going on was super fucked up was like, disgusted that like civilians, were paying such a high price for the actions of, you know, a fascist imperialist government's need to try for a land grab and was just like, honestly disgusted about how little the rest of the world seemed to care about these people who, like, were fucking starving to death and are still starving to death and like fucking living in occupied villages that change hands every couple of weeks, and like, can't get anything because NGOs won't go there. Because Red Cross thinks is too dangerous or whatever. Yeah, I mean, it is but like, that's your fucking job. Like, that's what you should be doing. And it like, came down to like, hundreds and or thousands of like, solo operators who have like these little groups, there's a bunch of us, like, but it's like, hard to...It's hard to say what her end game was. Like, she had a bunch of fucking dudes who, I don't speak Ukrainian or Polish, but there's some words that are the same, you know? And I mean, like, we'd be driving and the radio chatter would be all Polish. And I'd hear like "Americanski,"" and then, "Blah, blah, blah," and then nothing for a minute. And then you'd hear like, "Blah, blah, blah, Pistoleta, blah, blah, blah." And I'm like, what do they got in their van? You know what I mean? But I'm not asking, you know. The most I ever asked was like, the lead dude who took us on the convoys just seemed like he knew his way around a warzone, knew his way, you know, bunch of those motherfuckers were into Brazilian jujitsu. And that's where we like, connected a lot, because that's something I'm into, and they all knew how to handle themselves. They all seem like ex military or something. And one day, I was just like, I was like, "Hey, dude, like, are you ex... It's like, don't answer mean if you don't want to, but like, are you ex military or like current military or something?" And he says, "Kind of." and then walked away. And I was like, "Okay, that's enough." You know what I mean? So like, I don't know what their motivations we…
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