Learning How to See with Brian McLaren

Latest Episodes:

Genesis 11: 1-9 — Scattered on Purpose Oct 01, 2026

Show notes

In today's episode, we explore the story of the Tower of Babel and turn the usual reading of it upside down. Diverse languages, in this telling, are not the curse — the tower is.

In this conversation, Brian McLaren, Randy Woodley, and Edith Woodley talk about the cost of enforced sameness — from Native American boarding schools to the quiet pressure many people feel to hide what makes them different. What does it mean for the church to keep trying to finish a tower that the Creator never wanted rebuilt?

Resources:

Find the transcript for today's episode here.
Learn more about ⁠the Woodleys and Eloheh here⁠.
Pick up a copy of Randy’s new book, ⁠How Western Christianity Got It Wrong.⁠
⁠Journey to Eloheh⁠by Randy and Edith Woodley explores how Indigenous values lead us to harmony and well-being.
Discover more about composer April Stace ⁠⁠⁠here.⁠

Connect with us:

Have a question you’d like Brian, Randy, or Edith to answer about this season?

Email us: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠podcasts@cac.org⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠
Send us a voicemail: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠cac.org/voicemail⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Genesis 6-9 — What The Flood Could Not Get Sep 24, 2026

Show notes

Thank you for joining us for today's episode of Learning How to See, hosted by Brian McLaren, with guest hosts Rev. Dr. Randy Woodley and Edith Woodley.

Today, Edith reads the Biblical flood story from Genesis 6–9. She then connects this flood story to the U.S. government’s Native American boarding school system — including her own family’s history at the Carlisle Indian Industrial School.

Our hosts invite us to consider: what does it mean to survive a flood that was “meant to cover everything” — and didn’t?

Resources:

Find the transcript for today's episode here.
Learn more about the Woodleys and Eloheh here.
Pick up a copy of Randy’s new book, How Western Christianity Got It Wrong.
Journey to Elohehby Randy and Edith Woodley explores how Indigenous values lead us to harmony and well-being.
Discover more about composer April Stace ⁠⁠here.

Connect with us:

Have a question you’d like Brian, Randy, or Edith to answer about this season?

Email us: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠podcasts@cac.org⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠
Send us a voicemail: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠cac.org/voicemail⁠⁠⁠⁠

Genesis 4 — Am I My Brother's Murderer Sep 17, 2026

Show notes

In today's episode, our hosts Brian McLaren, Randy Woodley, and Edith Woodley explore the story of Cain and Abel through a lens of Indigenous wisdom, considering the origins of human violence and the contrast between “earth people” and “empire people.” Together they reflect on harmony, balance, and the Biblical call to be our “brother’s keeper.”

Listen in as our hosts unpack Genesis 4 alongside a Cherokee story of the terrapin and the wolves, consider how violence and domination shape human communities — and how choosing nonviolence and reciprocity can help us find another way.

Resources:

Find the transcript for today's episode here.
Learn more about the Woodleys and Eloheh here.
Pick up a copy of Randy’s new book, How Western Christianity Got It Wrong.
Journey to Elohehby Randy and Edith Woodley explores how Indigenous values lead us to harmony and well-being.
Discover more about composer April Stace ⁠here.

Connect with us:

Have a question you’d like Brian, Randy, or Edith to answer about this season?

Email us: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠podcasts@cac.org⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠
Email us: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠podcasts@cac.org⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Genesis 1 — The Good Earth Sep 10, 2026

Show notes

Welcome to the 10th season of Learning How to See hosted by Brian McLaren and guest hosts Rev. Dr. Randy Woodley and Edith Woodley. In today's episode, our hosts examine Genesis 1 through the lens of Indigenous wisdom, contrasting “earth people” with “empire people.” “Earth people” understand themselves as part of an interconnected web of life and practice caring for the land. “Empire people,” instead, emphasize domination and control.

Join us at our Bible study, as Brian, Edith, and Randy unpack Genesis 1, and invite us to consider how we hear and interpret the Bible.

Find the transcript for this episode here.

Resources:

Learn more about the Woodleys and Eloheh here.
Pick up a copy of Randy’s new book, How Western Christianity Got It Wrong.
Journey to Elohehby Randy and Edith Woodley explores how Indigenous values lead us to harmony and well-being.
Discover more about composer April Stace here.

Connect with us:

Have a question you’d like Brian, Randy, or Edith to answer about this season?

Email us: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠podcasts@cac.org⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠
Send us a voicemail: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠cac.org/voicemail⁠⁠⁠⁠

Coming Soon: Learning How to See The Bible Aug 27, 2026

Show notes

Season Ten begins September 10th!

This season on Learning How to See, host Brian McLaren and co-hosts Randy and Edith Woodley will focus on experiencing the Biblical text with a heart of seeking and curiosity. Brief readings from the book of Genesis will be followed by essays or stories with themes similar to that of the Biblical passages. The episodes will conclude with round-table conversations about the ways we see and experience stories differently. For faith reclaimers eager to help heal a hurting world, reimagine Christianity as a path of compassion, justice, and care for creation on Learning How to See: The Bible. Join us in exploring the book of Genesis through fresh perspectives rooted in wonder, wisdom, and lived experience.

Bonus: Listener Questions Jan 15, 2026

Show notes

Today Brian and Carmen address your questions including a deeper dive into Carmen's translation of Corinthians 13, what we mean when talk about love, and tips for knowing when to leave.

Resources:

Find the transcript for this episode here.

When Loving Means Letting Go with Jen Hatmaker Dec 18, 2025

Show notes

What do we do when life unravels in painful ways — like navigating an unexpected divorce?

On today's episode of Learning How to See, Carmen and Brian are joined by New York Times Bestselling author Jen Hatmaker. With great humor and authenticity, Jen takes us through the vulnerable experience of sharing her story, the transformation she went through after loss, and the spiritual power of starting over. Jen reflects on themes from her new memoir Awake,⁠and shares how her divorce helped her trust her inner knowing, become more fully embodied, and rebuild a life rooted in integrity rather than expectation.

Tune in to discover how community and self-compassion can guide us through seasons of upheaval — and how choosing honesty can become its own form of liberation.

Resources:

Pick up a copy of Jen's latest book, Awake, here.
Learn more about Jen here.
Find the transcript for today's episode here.

Connect with us:

Have a question you’d like Brian or Carmen to answer about this season?

Email us: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠podcasts@cac.org⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠
Send us a voicemail: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠cac.org/voicemail⁠⁠⁠

Loving When We're Not At Our Best with Parker Palmer Dec 11, 2025

Show notes

How can we see others, and ourselves, with love when anger, fear, depression, or division clouds our vision?

Today's episode of Learning How to See features an interview withQuaker elder Parker J. Palmer. Parker helps us explore how love can become a way of seeing, how we can navigate times of depression, and why listening to each other’s life stories may be our best antidote to polarization. Join us as Parker reflects on encounters that reshaped his assumptions about “the other,” sharing insights from decades of Quaker practice.

Resources:

Subscribe to Parker's Substack here.
Learn more about the Center for Renewal and Courage here.
Follow Parker on Facebook here.
Find the transcript for this episode here.

Connect with us:

Have a question you’d like Brian or Carmen to answer about this season?

Email us: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠podcasts@cac.org⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠
Send us a voicemail: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠cac.org/voicemail⁠⁠⁠

Learning How to Hold Space for Others with Cindy Lee Dec 04, 2025

Show notes

How can we de-Westernize spirituality and honor our full humanity within systems that often diminish it?

On this episode of Learning How to See, Dr. Cindy Lee, a spiritual director and author, joins hosts Brian McLaren and Carmen Acevedo Butcher for a conversation on de-Westernizing spirituality and holding space for the lived experience of others. Cindy shares how her work with BIPOC communities revealed the limits of Westernized spiritual formation, and how confronting the “Western missionary gaze” can open us to seeing our cultures — and ourselves — with dignity rather than judgment.

Resources:

Read Howard Thurman's "The Sound of the Genuine" here.
Find the transcript of this episode⁠ ⁠here.⁠⁠

Connect with us:

Have a question you’d like Brian or Carmen to answer about this season?

Send us a voicemail: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠cac.org/voicemail⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠
Email us: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠podcasts@cac.org⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Loving People Who Oppose Our Values with Cassidy Hall Nov 26, 2025

Show notes

How do we soften our hearts to those whose values are in stark contrast to our own? Can we safely love those who have even gone so far as to harm us?

On this episode of Learning How to See, Dr. Cassidy Hall, author of Queering Contemplation, poses these tough questions to our hosts Brian McLaren and Carmen Acevedo Butcher. Together, they explore how we can respond with integrity when our deepest values are met with opposition.

Through personal stories, Brian and Carmen model ways in which they’ve grappled with loving in the face of persecution, strained family dynamics, and systemic incongruities with their own values.

Resources: