It’s OK That You’re Not OK with Megan Devine

Latest Episodes:

A Place Called Home: A Conversation with Child Welfare Advocate, David Ambroz Oct 16, 2023

Show notes

The scene is 1990’s New York City. Young David Ambroz and his two siblings are homeless, sleeping in bus shelters and bathing in public restrooms, under the care of his mentally ill mother. The child he was is still evident in the person he grew up to be: a nationally recognized expert on child welfare, and a staunch supporter of the foster care system.
This week on It’s OK that You’re Not OK, we discuss both the horror and the joy of his childhood, landing on a vision of hope for the future that everyone (yes, you!) can help bring into fruition.

Sensitivity note: this episode explores the realities of being a homeless child, including brief examples of cruelty and non-graphic mention of sexual assault.

In this episode we cover:

The terrifying, liberating power of putting your personal story out into the world for everyone to see
“Occasional angels” and how they helped young David survive the cruelty of his upbringing
The intersections of mental illness, homelessness, and poverty
Beyond fostering: how anyone can take action to create the kind of world where kids are safe and loved and cared for

Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.

Follow our show on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok @refugeingrief and @itsokpod on TikTok. Visit refugeingrief.com for resources & courses

About our guest:

David Ambroz is a national poverty and child welfare expert and advocate. He currently serves as the Head of Community Engagement (West) for Amazon, coordinating with non-profits and community leaders for social good. David’s memoir, A Place Called Home, is a heart-wrenching yet inspiring story, depicting childhood poverty and homelessness as it is experienced by so many young people. Find him at davidambroz.com, on IG @hjdambroz, and on LinkedIn.

About Megan:

Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief

Additional resources:

Just talking about foster care can help foster care. Check out FosterMore, the foundation David co-founded with his sister, Jennifer Perry.

Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here.

Books and resources may contain affiliate links.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Overachieving As a Cry For Help: with Laurel Braitman Oct 09, 2023

Show notes

Lots of smart, high achieving people learned to greet pain with stoicism: by being mature and responsible, even as kids.

But what happens when you can’t maintain the facade of having your sh*t entirely together? Do you ever get to be less than Super Human?

In this episode we cover:

Perfectionism as a coping mechanism for all kinds of emotional wounds
Is distraction bad for you?
When the worst has already happened, how do you control your anxiety?
Is there any good way to tell kids that someone they love is dying?
Working within systems where vulnerability is punished (looking at you, medicine & law)
How medical aid in dying has changed over the years

Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.

“I live with a constant fear of liking anyone or anything too much lest I lose it.” - Laurel Braitman

Related episodes:

Connection Is the Best Medicine: with Dr. Rana Awdish

Elise Loehnen: The 7 Deadly Sins and the Crown of Sadness

Follow our show on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok @refugeingrief and @itsokpod on TikTok. Visit refugeingrief.com for resources & courses

About our guest:

Laurel Braitman is a New York Times bestselling author - her new book, What Looks Like Bravery: An Epic Journey Through Loss to Love, is out now. She’s the founder of Writing Medicine, a global community of writing healthcare professionals, and the Director of Writing and Storytelling at the Medical Humanities and the Arts Program at the Stanford University School of Medicine. Find her at laurelbraitman.com and on IG @laurel_braitman.

About Megan:

Additional resources:

Writing Medicine - Laurel Braitman’s global writing community for healthcare workers

Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here.

Books and resources may contain affiliate links.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Such Ferocious Beauty: with Margo Timmins of the Cowboy Junkies Oct 02, 2023

Show notes

Dementia means losing your person over and over again.

Margo Timmins and her siblings watched their father lose pieces of himself for years. They processed all that loss the way they always have: through music. The Cowboy Junkies vocalist joins us this week to talk about love, memory, and the ferocious beauty of turning towards what hurts.

*not sure who the Cowboy Junkies are? Google “cowboy junkies sweet jane” - I bet you’ll instantly recognize her voice.

In this episode we cover:

The endless “interpretation” of music - each song means something completely different to the writer and the vocalist and the audience
Why helping someone not be scared of dying isn’t the goal
Everybody's hell is the correct hell for them, and everyone’s hell is valid. (huh?)
How a neutral, logical approach to emotions helps you navigate truly impossible things (sometimes)

Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.

“Beauty contains death and suffering and outcomes you did not want.” - Margo Timmins

Related episodes:

The Love-Filled World

The Grief of Getting What You Want: with Chase Jarvis

Follow our show on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok @refugeingrief and @itsokpod on TikTok. Visit refugeingrief.com for resources & courses

About our guest:

Margo Timmins is the lead vocalist of the Cowboy Junkies, an iconic Canadian alternative country/blues/folk rock band. Find their new album, Such Ferocious Beauty, wherever you get your music. And get into their oldies, too.

About Megan:

Additional resources:

For dementia support, we love Dr. Natali Edmonds (@dementia_careblazers)

Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here.

Books and resources may contain affiliate links.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Cruelty on Steroids: How We Talk to Each Other, with Jameela Jamil Sep 25, 2023

Show notes

We fight hard for the things we believe in. But HOW we fight for those things causes more damage than we realize.

Jameela Jamil is a lightning rod for criticism, but it’s not just how people treat her that she’s concerned about.

“The most punk thing I can do is move towards love and unity.” - Jameela Jamil

In this episode we cover:

Our odd habit of dehumanizing each other in the name of “progress”
Do we believe, fundamentally, that human beings are allowed to change and grow?
What kids learn when we attack each other on social media (or in the news)
Why vengeance - aka: cancel culture - isn’t going to help us get the world we want
Why you should try to make more mistakes

Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.

“Most of our behavior on all political sides is coming from trauma and fear - it's not all just ignorance. We have to listen for that pain if we’re going to be effective.” - Jameela Jamil

Related episodes:

Book Bans, Grief, and Love: What Do These Have to Do With Social Movements? with Malkia Devich-Cyril

Why Do We Celebrate Trauma (aka: Resilience)? with Dr. Gabor Maté

Follow our show on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok @refugeingrief and @itsokpod on TikTok. Visit refugeingrief.com for resources & courses

About our guest:

Jameela Jamil is an actress, advocate, and podcast host. You’ve seen her in The Good Place, She-Hulk: Attorney at Law, and Legendary, and all over social media commenting on the odd things we do to ourselves and each other. Follow her on IG @jameelajamil, and listen to her podcast I Weigh.

About Megan:

Additional resources:

Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here.

Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s OK That You're Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed

Books and resources may contain affiliate links.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Why Do We Celebrate Trauma (aka: Resilience)? with Dr. Gabor Maté Sep 18, 2023

Show notes

Did anyone teach you that understanding your grief is the key to being (or becoming) a healthy human being? Probably not.

In this expansive episode, Megan speaks with world-renowned author and physician Gabor Maté about the role of trauma and grief in our personal lives and in society at large. Dr. Gabor Maté on grief, this week on It’s OK that You’re Not OK, the podcast.

In this episode we cover:

What is “personal agency” and why does losing personal agency create disease?
Why calling grief a disorder has social, relational and political ramifications
How do elephants grieve? Is it really so different from humans?
Women as the emotional shock absorbers for the rest of the world
Why we often ignore other peoples’ pain to make ourselves comfortable
Does taking pain seriously make you more hopeful?
Dr. Gabor Maté’s conversation with Prince Harry (!)

Follow our show on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok @refugeingrief and @itsokpod on TikTok. Visit refugeingrief.com for resources & courses

About the guest:

Dr. Gabor Maté is a renowned speaker and author, with expertise in trauma, stress, addiction, and child development. He’s the NYT best-selling author of The Myth of Normal, the award-winning In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts, and many other books. Find him at drgabormate.com

About Megan:

Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. The best-selling book on grief in over a decade, Megan’s It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, is a global phenomenon that has been translated into more than 25 languages. Her animations and explainers have garnered over 75 million views and are used in training programs around the world. Find her @refugeingrief

Additional resources:

Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s OK That You're Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed

Books and research mentioned in this episode

The Myth of Normal by Gabor Maté
Scattered Minds by Gabor Maté
The Wisdom of Trauma - documentary exploring Gabor Maté’s work to understand the connection between illness, addiction, trauma, and society.
Jaak Panksepp researched connections between human emotion processing and other mammals
Hold Onto Your Kids by Gordon Neufeld & Gabor Maté
Research on early trauma in elephants
The Washington Post article about Megan’s loss
NYT Mothers are The ‘Shock Absorbers’ Of Our Society

Books and resources may contain affiliate links.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Sorry for your loss: comedian Michael Cruz Kayne Sep 11, 2023

Show notes

How do you turn the worst thing that’s ever happened to you into a comedy show?

Comedian Michael Cruz Kayne went viral for a tweet he posted on the 10th anniversary of his newborn son’s death. What followed was an outpouring of support, but also: of storytelling, with thousands of people sharing their own experiences of loss.

His one man show, Sorry for Your Loss, and his podcast, A Good Cry, have made the topic of child loss a little bit easier to approach. He’d like you to know you should ask your sad friend about the sad thing that happened to them: it’s ok to not know what to say.

In this episode we cover:

Can you make comedy about tragedy?
How telling the truth can make you less lonely
Is it okay to say “sorry for your loss”?
If family members would be upset by what you say on stage, should you say it anyway?
Does everything happen for a reason? (spoiler: no. but maybe yes.)

Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.

“Having half of infinity is also infinity. I got more than you could ever possibly get, and I thought I was gonna get twice that.” - Michael Cruz Kayne, on the enduring grief of his son’s death.

Related episodes:

Tembi Locke - From Scratch

Can We Make This Place Beautiful? with Maggie Smith

Follow our show on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok @refugeingrief and @itsokpod on TikTok. Visit refugeingrief.com for resources & courses

About our guest:

Comedian and writer Michael Cruz Kayne is the host of A Good Cry, and creator of the one man show, Sorry For Your Loss, from Audible theater. He’s an Emmy nominated, Peabody award winning writer on the Late Show with Stephen Colbert. Find him at michaelcruzkayne.com and on Instagram and Twitter @cruzkayne

About Megan:

Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. The best-selling book on grief in over a decade, Megan’s It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, is a global phenomenon that has been translated into more than 25 languages. Her animations and explainers have garnered over 75 million views and are used in training programs around the world. Find her @refugeingrief

Additional resources:

Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here.

Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s OK That You're Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed

Books and resources may contain affiliate links.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Elise Loehnen: The 7 Deadly Sins and the Crown of Sadness Sep 04, 2023

Show notes

Should you stop being “good”?

According to the 7 deadly sins, a “good person” needs no rest, has no appetite, has no desires, puts themselves last, and is never upset.

NYT best-selling author Elise Loehnen says we spend most of our energy denying the needs and instincts that make us human - like our needs for love, connection, success, and rest.

It’s hard to be “ok” when you’ve spent a lifetime denying your own needs.

In this episode we cover:

How the 7 deadly sins morphed into a rulebook for everyday life
Who does she think she is?!
Is the sin of greed keeping you from making friends?
Why the most harmful thing you can do to a woman is destroy her reputation
Why don't we allow men to be sad? (it’s not what you think)
The grief in how much time you’ve lost trying to be good

Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.

“You can't interrupt the status quo alone. This is communal work.” - Elise Loehnen

Related episodes:

⁣Horse Barbie & Cultivating Trans Joy with Geena Rocero

Book Bans, Grief, and Love: What Do These Have to Do With Social Movements? with Malkia Devich-Cyril

Follow our show on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok @refugeingrief and @itsokpod on TikTok. Visit refugeingrief.com for resources & courses

About our guest:

Elise Loehnen is the author of the New York Times bestseller, On Our Best Behavior: The Seven Deadly Sins and the Price Women Pay to Be Good.She’s written for The Oprah Magazine, Stylist, and The New York Times, and hosts the podcast, Pulling the Thread. Find her @eliseloehnen

About Megan:

Additional resources:

Elise’s NYT best seller: On Our Best Behavior: The Seven Deadly Sins and the Price Women Pay to Be Good

Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here.

Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s OK That You're Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed

Books and resources may contain affiliate links.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Tembi Locke: From Scratch Aug 28, 2023

Show notes

Tembi Locke lived an amazing love story: she met a handsome chef during a study abroad year in Italy when she was just 20 years old. They moved to LA to pursue Tembi’s acting career, and built a life around their love of food, family, and each other.
And then leiomyosarcoma arrived.

Is it still a Hollywood love story if it doesn’t have a happy ending?

Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.
Train with Megan here: next course begins 9/04

In this episode we cover:

Who’s the real couple behind the hit Netflix series, From Scratch?
Why Tembi made sure From Scratch was an honest guide to profound loss
How the sleeper hit show Eureka taught Tembi that it’s ok to let people help
How Tembi Locke learned about the grief in Never Have I Ever only after the show came out
Why you don’t have to know how it all works out before you get started.

Related episodes:

Live Each Day Like It’s Your First: with Alua Arthur

Grief In Fiction, Grief In Life, with Best-Selling Author, Emily X.R. Pan

Follow our show on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok @refugeingrief and @itsokpod on TikTok. Visit refugeingrief.com for resources & courses

About our guest:

Tembi Locke is a writer, executive producer, and an accomplished actor. Her best-selling book, From Scratch: A Memoir of Love, Sicily, and Finding Home was the basis for the hit Netflix series, From Scratch. Find her @tembilocke

About Megan:

Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s most insightful and original voices on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. The best-selling book on grief in over a decade, Megan’s It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, is a global phenomenon that has been translated into more than 25 languages. Her animations and explainers have garnered over 75 million views and are used in training programs around the world. Find her @refugeingrief

Additional resources:

Read Tembi Locke’s book - From Scratch: A Memoir of Love, Sicily, and Finding Home

Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here.

Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s OK That You're Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed

Books and resources may contain affiliate links.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Sam Sanders: Life Has Been Lifing Aug 21, 2023

Show notes

Sam Sanders is a well known and well loved radio and podcast host. He went a little extra-viral for a recent episode of his show, Vibe Check, in which he and his co-hosts openly discussed grief. This week on It’s OK, Sam joins us to talk about being open with his grief, and the ongoing relationships we have even after death.

In this episode we cover:

What happens if you give grief a voice?
The double-edged sword of church communities
Why understanding context helps you treat yourself more kindly
How men speaking honestly about grief helps everyone
Throwing out the rule book on grief

Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.
Train with Megan here: next course begins 9/04

Related episodes:

A Renaissance of our Own: Rachel Cargle

Coming Home to Yourself with Alex Elle

Follow our show on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok @refugeingrief and @itsokpod on TikTok

Notable quotes:

“I wish churches would say, “Every emotion you feel is allowed and is in fact, holy, because God made them all.” - Sam Sanders

About our guest:

Sam Sanders is the host of Into It, the flagship culture podcast from Vulture, and the co-host of Vibe Checkon Stitcher. He covered electoral politics for NPR, and was one of the original co-hosts of The NPR Politics Podcast. Sam also created and hosted the NPR news & culture podcast, It’s Been a Minute. Find him on social @samsanders

About Megan:

Psychotherapist Megan Devine is recognized as one of today’s most insightful and original voices on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. The best-selling book on grief in over a decade, Megan’s It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, is a global phenomenon that has been translated into more than 25 languages. Her animations and explainers have garnered over 75 million views and are used in training programs around the world. Find her @refugeingrief

Additional resources:

Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here.

Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s OK That You're Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed

Books and resources may contain affiliate links.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Steven Kotler: Peak Performance and Getting Older (for humans and for dogs!) Aug 14, 2023

Show notes

When life feels hard, does “peak performance” mean anything?

Steven Kotler is known as the NYT best selling author of books like Stealing Fire andThe Rise of Superman, but can the science of stretching limits apply to grief of any kind? If you look beyond the slick language of bio-hacking and extreme sports typically found in discussions on peak performance, it turns out there’s something here for all of us.

In this episode we cover:

How peak performance applies to your life - even if you’re not an athlete
Why gratitude tends to work better than affirmations
The scientific reason why play is good for you - and important for healthy aging
The first three days of grief: what loss is like inside a hospice-based dog rescue
How a change in mindset can extend your life by eight years (but that’s not the same as toxic positivity)

Related episodes:

What’s It All For? Loss and Meaning in Midlife with Chip Conley

Pet Loss and Veterinarians Who Cry: with Veterinary Oncologist and Author Dr. Renee Alsarraf

Connection is the Best Medicine: with Dr. Rana Adwish

Notable quotes:

“Limits are liberating.” – Steven Kotler

“Hope is about the collaborative effort.” – Steven Kotler

About our guest:

Steven Kotler is one of the world’s most renowned experts on human performance. His NYT best selling books include The Art of Impossible and The Rise of Superman. He’s the co-founder of Planet Home and the Executive Director of the Flow Research Collective. Steven’s work has been nominated for two Pulitzer Prizes, and appears in over 100 publications, including the Wall Street Journal, TIME, and the Harvard Business Review. His latest book, Gnar Country: Growing Old, Staying Rad, details the application of peak performance tenets on an aging body. Find him at stevenkotler.com

About Megan:

Psychotherapist and bestselling author Megan Devine is recognized as one of today’s most insightful and original voices on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. She helms a consulting practice in Los Angeles and serves as an organizational consultant for the healthcare and human resources industries.

The best-selling book on grief in over a decade, Megan’sIt’s Ok that You’re Not OK, is a global phenomenon that has been translated into more than 25 languages. Her celebrated animations and explainers have garnered over 75 million views and are used in training programs around the world.

Additional resources:

The Art of Impossible: a Peak Performance Primer

Stealing Fire: How Silicon Valley, the Navy SEALs, and Maverick Scientists Are Revolutionizing the Way We Live and Work

The Future Is Faster Than You Thinkby Peter H. Diamandis and Steven Kotler

The Rise of Superman: Decoding the Science of Ultimate Human Performance

A Small Furry Prayer: Dog Rescue and the Meaning of Life

Rancho de Chihuahua - Joy and Steven’s non-profit dog sanctuary

Want to become a more grief-informed, human-centered therapist or provider? Registration is open now for Megan Devine’s 6 month online Grief Care Professional Certificate Program. Details at this link.

Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for an inexpensive monthly open video Q&A clinic for grieving people. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here.

Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s OK That You're Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed

Books and resources may contain affiliate links.

Get in touch:

Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of It’s OK that You’re Not OK. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, tag us on social with your thoughts, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.

Follow the show on TikTok @itsokpod and use the hashtag #ItsOkPod on all social platforms

For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok, and follow Megan on LinkedIn

For more information, including clinical training and consulting and to share your thoughts, visit us at megandevine.co

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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