Show notes
On this week’s edition of In Black America, producer and host John L. Hanson, Jr. speaks with Michael Meyerson, the DLA Piper Professor of Law and Director of the Fannie Angelos Program For Academic Excellence at the University of Baltimore School of Law. The Fannie Angelos Program assists law students from Maryland’s historically Black colleges and universities. Announcer [00:00:15] From the University of Texas at Austin, KUT Radio, this is In Black America. Michael Meyerson [00:00:23] I went to historically Black colleges which are by long race neutral. Though in the state of Maryland, overwhelmingly African-American. Not entirely, but overwhelmingly. And we went to the fourth schools and we started recruiting people. And from there, we finally figured out in large ways how to really identify those who were not only academically talented, but kind of personally motivated. And then we spent time with them working to both explain the system and then get them ready for the LSAT, which gets them into law school, the entrance exam. And then we found that’s not enough, because in law school, when you’re going from a predominantly African-American community to a predominantly white institution. There are still lots of obstacles. It’s institutional racism, this individual, and of course, in this, the world of environment and life that people have to sort of deal with. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:01:15] Michael Meyerson, the DLA Piper Professor of Law and Director of the Fannie Angelos Program for Academic Excellence, the University of Baltimore School of Law. The Fannie Angelos Program for Academic Excellence, formally called the Baltimore Scholars Program, has been in its current form for the past seven years. The program represents a revolutionary and comprehensive approach for addressing the lack of diversity in legal education and the legal profession. Meyerson and his team has created in collaboration between the University of Baltimore School of Law and Maryland’s four historically Black colleges and universities. More than 100 students have been accepted into law schools across the country. Students have served on law journals, won national Moot Court competitions graduated at the top of their class and obtain prestigious judicial clerkships and jobs at law firms and public interest organizations. I’m John L. Hanson Jr., and welcome to another edition of In Black America. On this week’s program, the Fannie Angelos Program for Academic Excellence by Professor Michael Meyerson. In Black America. Michael Meyerson [00:02:28] So one is that you over time you identify certain traits. For example, if you don’t take personal responsibility for your failures, if you always blame others, it’s really hard to self improve. So that sort of thing. Second, if you don’t believe that you should help others, that you can work as a team. The program isn’t right for you because what we’ve learned is that it’s the community that makes people strong. So you have to accept that. And finally, I don’t do the selection process myself. We have not just other faculty members, but we have people from the program who are incredibly protective of both to the program and sort of the the students who come in. And so they have to know because, you know, we don’t bat 1000, one of the things about a program, any program that wants to make change like this is I think you have to recognize that, you know, you’re not going to be perfect. But we’ve gotten better over time. And, you know, basically, you also you always, you know, fight the last war. So if one year you realize that you don’t have a sense of community, then the next year you put extra effort when you interview and talk to people and then you bring them in to work on the basic skills. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:03:39] Law professor Michael Meyerson has devoted his entire life to fighting for the underdog and disenfranchized. Since the mid 1990, he has worked tirelessly to level the playing field for minority law school students, according to the 2017 National Association for Law Placement Report on Diversity in U.S. Law Firms. Only about 4% of legal associates and fewer than 2% of partners at law firms across the country are African-Americans. In 2013, with a $1 million donation from a Baltimore attorney to the University of Baltimore School of Law, the Baltimore Scholars Program was renamed The Fannie Angelos Program for Academic Excellence. The program provides law school admission test training for students from Maryland’s historically Black colleges and universities, as well as scholarship, mentoring and financial assistance to students admitted to UAB Law School and other law schools. Recently In Black America, I spoke with Professor Meyerson from his home. Michael Meyerson [00:04:42] So in many ways it was much better because people were much more open because they could sort of have their anonymity guaranteed and protected. So I was able to like, read their private questions out loud and we got a much forward discussion. So I was actually way better. But, you know, it’s easy for a lazy student to hide online. I haven’t had not figured out a way to, uh, to capture that. So that that’s, that’s a work in progress. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:05:06] So when they’re online is a whole class. Yeah. Plugged in to your particular lecture? Michael Meyerson [00:05:12] Yeah. Yeah, It’s a, it’s through Zoom. But the other trouble is, you know, when you’re in front of a classroom, you can gaze and watch everyone when you’re doing it on Zoom. I’m not going to watch 60. You know, and I, I, you know, and then they say, Oh, I can’t use my screen. I have to use my phone. And, you know, and of course, some of my students are, you know, you know, are absolutely true, you know, and they may not have good wifi, but but the trouble is online lets slackers be slackers. And I just, you know, you know, I like to be a hard ass and I just can’t capture them yet. But, you know, I like to think I’ll get better at that. I was born in New York City, in the Bronx, and ended up moving down, getting a job in Baltimore and living around here now. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:05:52] What was it like, like growing up in New York? Michael Meyerson [00:05:55] Well, it’s it’s it’s it’s fascinating in ways because you do meet lots of different people, even, you know, almost without helping it because it’s such a crowded place. But reality is also with it can still be somewhat segregated based on income and and where you live. And so you see people, but you don’t get to know them. So you have an illusion when you’re a New Yorker that you’re really in a diverse city. But I think in reality, most of us were not. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:06:21] And you did your undergraduate work where?. Michael Meyerson [00:06:24] I started at, uh, Middlebury College in Vermont, and ended up graduating from a place called Hampshire College in Amherst, Massachusetts, which is known for having no exams and no grades. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:06:35] And your law degree is from where? Michael Meyerson [00:06:37] University of Pennsylvania School of Law. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:06:40] What excited you to go into law? Michael Meyerson [00:06:42] Oh, being sort of a baby boomer, the lawyers seemed to be the heroes of the of the movement, the civil rights movement. They seemed to be the ones who were changing society. And so also lacking any any any particular skill in my life, I can’t sing, I can’t dance, I can’t do much athletically. Law seems to be the best way I could do things. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:07:06] I also understand that you work for the American Civil Liberties Union. Michael Meyerson [00:07:10] In fact, that was probably the best part of my legal education. I spent six months working full time at the national ACLU office, and I met these extraordinary lawyers who were doing extraordinary things. And they also just taught me to be a lawyer. So I always think the quality of my lawyering was very much based on the luck of having six months working there. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:07:33] I also read somewhere that you said the Bible greatly influenced you. How so? Michael Meyerson [00:07:38] Well, in the sense of it’s a oh, it’s sort of like a mandate. I’m Jewish and I’m told that, you know, remember, you were a stranger in a strange land, and that always seemed to be the moral command. And it you know, it transcends religion. But in that sense, it just seemed to be every time you felt settled, you had a responsibility to help those who were not. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:08:00] Also, I understand that you joined the faculty there in 1985. Michael Meyerson [00:08:05] Yes. I’m old as dirt. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:08:08] And any prior positions before you went to the University of Baltimore? Michael Meyerson [00:08:11] I done sort of like, uh, teaching elsewhere for a few years at Brooklyn Law School. I had done a little work in a sort of a political office, in the governor’s office in New York State, doing consumer protection. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:08:22] I also understand that through your tenure, you said that a law professor gave you some good advice, that the legal profession affects the lives of ordinary people. Michael Meyerson [00:08:33] Oh, it really does. And I was told early on that as a teacher, my responsibility was not so much to my students, but to their future clients. And I didn’t really have the right to affect their politics, but I had an obligation to affect their ability to be professionals and respectful. And then I had also the opportunity as an academic to find ways to make the world better, or at least how I saw the world being better. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:09:01] Talk to us about the Fannie Angelos Program for Academic Excellence. Michael Meyerson [00:09:05] It sort of began as a reaction. I was asked with a colleague to to sort of review the law school’s affirmative action program after they were started being challenged in the 1990s. And our program, you know, met constitutional muster. But like so many affirmative action programs, it did very little. And I had been sort of pondering since law school how to do this thing right, how to do, I guess, what we now call pipelines, but how to do something that really, you know, discovered talented people and gave them a chance they would not otherwise have. So, Sunny, in the mid 1990s, I and a colleague sort of created this program. But I’ll be honest, it took about 15 years to do it right. I thought originally all you have to do is sort of open a door and then life is fine. What I learned over the years was how much it took to level the playing field, because the motto of the program is that we’re not a diversity program. We’re a talent search. Because if you find talent and level the playing field, diversity happens. So what we found is the other thing to be constitutional at the state University, we had to be race neutral. And so we went to historically Black colleges, which are by long race neutral, though in the state of Maryland, overwhelmingly African-American, not entirely, but overwhelmingly. And we went to the four schools and we started recruiting people. And from there, we finally figured out in large ways how to really identify those who were not only academically talented but kind of personally motivated. And then we spent time with them working to both explain the system and then get them ready for the LSAT, which gets them into law school, the entrance exam. And then we found that’s not enough cause in law school, when you’re going from a predominantly African-American community to a predominantly white institution, there are still lots of obstacles. There’s institutional racism, there’s individual. And of course, then there’s the world of environment and life that people have to sort of deal with. And then we learned after they graduate, that’s not enough, because they’re going from a predominantly white institution to an overwhelmingly white profession. And if you look at the numbers of African-Americans who were like in law firms and partners, it is it’s it’s virtually Jim Crow level. And so we created we now have a system where we’re sort of working to support and mentor, you know, people throughout the process. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:11:36] What was the HBCU president, his immediate reaction when you all told him that you wanted to develop this program? Michael Meyerson [00:11:46] Well, on one level, it was sort of like, you know, go have at it. I think that part of the problem with institutions is that they’re nervous about sharing. And I think, you know, rightfully so, a lot of the CEOs are not very trusting, you know, don’t have a lot of instant trust in a predominantly white law school. I think over the years, we’ve proven the most important thing. And this is, by the way, there’s sort of a two side note, but it’s it’s I think it’s relevant. To me, the biggest problem with affirmative action programs is how many of them are built on disrespect. Will lower standards will overlook this. We don’t really expect quality if people don’t do well with. Well, of course. What do you expect? And that’s always I mean, it’s a lie, but I think it’s a real poison. So the program we run is all based on the absolute confidence that the students we are finding are either as good or in most cases better than the students will be competing with at the law school and in the profession at large. And the institutions we’re working with, we treat with respect because what they are accomplishing is so extraordinary. And over time, when you treat people with respect, they begin to believe it, that you actually do respect them. And so that’s become a whole lot better. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:12:58] I know this is extract type of collusion, but how do you all decide which students that you all select with you all help? These individuals can actually make it. Michael Meyerson [00:13:12] That’s a that, by the way, first of all, it’s an art, not a science. And I, I don’t swear we’re that good at it or I’m not good at it. So one of the things I’ve learned is program like. Like what? Like mine. You learn humility early and often. So one is that you you over time you identify certain traits. For example, if you don’t take personal responsibility for your failures, if you always blame others, it’s really hard to self improve. So that sort of thing. Second, if you don’t believe that you should help others, that you can work as a team. The program isn’t right for you because what we’ve learned is that it’s the community that makes people strong. So you have to accept that. And finally, I don’t do the selection process myself. We have not just other faculty members, but we have people from the program who are incredibly protective of the program and and sort of the the students who come in. And so they have to know because, you know, we don’t by 2000, one of the things about a program, any program that wants to make change like this is I think you have to recognize that, you know, you’re not going to be perfect. But we’ve gotten better over time. And, you know, basically, you also you always, you know, fight the last war. So if one year you realize that you don’t have a sense of community, then the next year you put extra effort when you interview and talk to people and then you bring them in to work on the basic skills, you know, again, and this years, I mean, we have a really good group, so I’m feeling better, but it’s still it’s still personalities. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:14:43] Is there any certain number of students that you all matriculate through this program every year? Michael Meyerson [00:14:48] Well, it’s an interesting point, because the other thing it because there are so few programs that are predominantly white law schools reaching down to collaborate with historically Black colleges and do it in such a holistic way. I mean, there are a lot of programs like help people with the…
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