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This is Geek Therapy Jun 13, 2021

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#300: This. Is. Geek Therapy! [Cue spartan kick] Welcome to episode 300 of GT Radio The Geek Therapy Podcast, another huge milestone in a year full of milestones. As we are getting ready to celebrate Geek Therapy’s 10th anniversary in a few weeks, here we celebrate how far we’ve come as an idea and a community. Our favorite thing we hear from members of the community is when they say “I’ve found my people.” And we’re happy you found us! Whether you’ve been a part of the community for a while or this is your first taste of Geek Therapy: Welcome. This is also a great introduction to Geek Therapy theory and culture so we hope you’ll share this episode with more people so they can learn what we’re all about. Questions? Comments? Discuss this episode on the GT Forum.—Check out the GT Network: network.geektherapy.comGT Forum: forum.geektherapy.comGT Discord: geektherapy.com/discordGT Facebook Group: facebook.com/groups/geektherapyFind us at www.GeekTherapy.org | @GeekTherapy | Lara: @GeekTherapist | Lauren: @CHICKENDINOSAUR | Josué: @JosueACardonaAsk us anything through the Question Queue and we’ll answer on the show: geektherapy.org/qq Transcript Automatically transcribed by https://otter.aiJosué Cardona 0:07 Welcome to GT Radio on the Geek Therapy network. Here at Geek Therapy. We believe that the best way to understand each other and ourselves is through the media we care about, my name is Josué Cardona. I’m joined by Lara Taylor.Lara Taylor 0:19 Hey,Josué Cardona 0:20 And Link Keller.Link Keller 0:21 Hello.Josué Cardona 0:25 We did it. We’re here. It’s Episode 300. And I am the emotions that I’m feeling are, are positive and many. And I’m feeling real good. And come with much of a plan. It’s just, it’s just feel it feels good. Feels good. We’ve been working on so much stuff. It’s been quite a year. It’s been quite 10 years. All this stuff is happening at the same time we’ve been we’ve been it’s just been a lot. And I’m so I’m so happy. I’m so happy. Not too many big changes for 300. I mean, usually at a milestone I do something, you know, the we introduce something we change something. We’re nothing, nothing too crazy. Nothing, nothing too different. Just just one little thing at the beginning of the show. And, yeah, that this is this is just I don’t know, it feels. I do like to kind of a, I don’t know, I want to I want to celebrate a bit. But I also want to kind of like re like recenter. Right, come come back to some back to basics. Maybe I did it like every 50 episodes. But I think that’s that’s a good like number two, do it like once a year here. Yeah, like, okay, let’s, uh, let’s bring it back to basics. And what one thing that has been, obviously, the biggest adventure that we’ve, that we’ve been on for the past year, is officially becoming a 501 c three nonprofit organization. And it just, it just, it feels good. And it’s changed so many things, and it opens up for a lot of new opportunities and possibilities. And and, you know, we’re just a couple weeks away from the actual 10th anniversary. And it’s like, it’s a lot of things, it’s a lot of things all at once it feels it feels really good. But one thing I’ve found myself doing is reintroducing Geek Therapy to many, many new people, partners, other businesses, people, you know, potential donors, collaborators, just over and over and over and over again. And, and it reminds me of, and I don’t remember exactly when this started happening. But at some point, people started asking, like, what, how do we do that? Like, how do we how do we, how do we do what you do? And and that started, I started thinking like, oh, like I should, I should find a better way to explain this. And so over time, and over the years, I did come up with, like, a theory, even over the weekend, someone was like, Oh, well, you know, it’s preparing for an interview. And they were saying, Yeah, like, you know, can you talk about this and this and this? And like, Oh, can you talk about Geek Therapy theory? And I was like, Yeah, I can. Now after, after many, many years, I can actually, I can actually do that. And, and the reason I want to talk about that today is because I feel like it’s a 10th anniversary, that does it. There’s a New York Times article that’s gonna mention us in a couple days. Just like right there. It’s a big milestone. You know, people, people are gonna come and say like, Oh, what is then what is it for you? And it’s so we’ve never really done an episode on that, like I talked about it, right. But we’ve never really done if you’ve been to a workshop or something, I talk about it. And basically, it’s it’s the core idea that everything that we do is is built on. And in one way or another to it’s like when you think about like, Oh, yeah, I don’t know, I get it. I see. I see. it real simple. It’s three parts. It’s it’s affinity, I was talking about this idea of affinity, right. It’s like, oh, something like stuff you’re just drawn to, attracted to meaningful, like, I don’t think you can always explain why you like what you like. It’s just like, I don’t know, I just do. Maybe there are reasons but like, you know, you don’t think about it when it’s happening. I don’t know that that’s kind of it. Right? Like, what are you drawn to? What are you connected to? What are you interested in? That that’s like an affinity I mean, that’s the main piece that we’re looking at that but then it’s when that combines with What I used to just call a relatability. But that was like felt kind of clunky. So a couple years ago, I started calling it resonance. Because I was like, oh, okay, like it resonates with you. Yeah. Like, you’re both nodding like, yeah.Link Keller 5:14 It’s a sexier word. It’s got better mouthfeel it’s great. ItJosué Cardona 5:18 feels good. It feels good. It’s like, oh, like that thing that I really like, oh, but like, it resonated with me. And that resonance, I like that it can be a positive or a negative one. Right? So it’s like, oh, yeah, like, I feel it like I relate to that character. That’s my experience, or, yes, it feels good. It makes me happy. I’m excited about it. But if it’s negative, so sometimes the dates like an a and an R and the R. If I’m talking about a negative version, it’s a it’s a negative resonance or a repulsion. It’s like, oh, like that. I feel like it pushed me away. Right. Like, it’s like, it’s like, it’s a no, no, no, that I don’t like the way this feels, or that makes me angry. Or, you know, it’s like these negative feelings. A big Nope. But it’s those ones. When you put those things together that then and you and you, you go over them. You talk about them, like, oh, oh, right, right, right. I feel this way. I care so much, because it reminds me of this, or you just start processing the feelings like that. So I was I was late to today’s recording, because we’ve started a, a, a brand new show that I will premiere Finally, in a couple weeks, and I am I’m so happy about it. Because for years, Promises, promises promises. I but I’ve wanted to make this on for years. And it’s, I think, I think it’s really easy to talk about Geek Therapy theory in particular, when you apply to music, it’s like, oh, yeah, like, Uh huh. But you could just start talking like a three minute song or even just the lyric from a song. It’s like, I don’t know. And then you think about it’s like, oh, like, it’d be me angry and be happy. And we were just recording an episode by the show, which is called resonance, by the way, because and, and there was a sound that made me it just I didn’t, I didn’t like the way it made me feel. And and when we got into the conversation, that went, that was quite a conversation. Like, I didn’t, I didn’t. This is this is the theory, this is the whole thing, right? It’s like, I don’t like this the way that song made me feel. Um, but like, there was something about it, like I’m drawn to it. I like it like that. Someone else like said, we’re talking about it. I don’t like the way it makes me feel. Why exactly, I think it’s and then I just went like, it just made sense. They started understanding my feelings about it. And I started remembering views of the world and lots of things that I don’t like thinking about, but that song brought them up for me, I think it’s really easy to do that with music. And we’ll just I mean, basically, it’s a plus r equals u, the US for understanding, it’s like, oh, that’s where that’s where the insights come from. That’s where things start making sense. And someone who is equipped with, you know, just looking for those first two pieces, you can get to the to the third one. That’s kind of the the point. That’s why we say you know, it’s the best way to understand each other. And if you, we may not bring it up every single day, but every single show every single everything on the network, even when people it’s not just a foundation of the way that I teach workshops in the way that I’ve been writing about stuff for a long time and the basis of this particular show. But I think it’s also representative of the shows that are on the network that maybe have made by people who haven’t even been to one of my workshops, like, deep impact. I’m sure Nate has never been to one of my workshops and has never heard me say these words. But the idea that that that he brought up was like, Oh, yeah, no, no, like these, the, these pieces of media are important, I think we should know about them. And from the frame, that they’re meaningful to me, like they were impactful. Right. It’s like it matters to hear people talk about things that were impactful. And, and I keep every we do that with things, music may be the most mainstream of the things that we’re doing. Although, you know, we just did an episode on train music. So, you know, we are definitely we’re still thinking, right? It’s like, Oh, you love trains? Yeah, let’s train music in particular. Yeah, let’s dive deep into that. And it’s just that that’s it, right? It’s a that’s the geek part of the culture. It’s Oh, yeah, no, no, we’re drawn to it. We love it. We were excited about it. It makes us feel a certain way. How, what is the resonance there? What is it that it’s made you thinking that makes you think, what are you thinking about it? What are you feeling? It feels simple, but once you start using it, it’s, it’s just very effective anyway, and then that’s, that’s what we were all what we do. And so that foundation, everything that was built on That idea. And and we continue to like what, again, using deep impact as an example, right? It’s like, this is the idea. I’m like, Yeah, no, that lines up exactly. With what we’re doing. Yep, that’s the thing. It’s Welcome aboard.Yeah, yeah, like Hero Nation. Another one right there. We’re like, Oh, yeah, no, like we you know, because it’s primarily about representation. And I’m like, yep, Nope, that’s the one. That’s absolutely, we, you know, people of color talking about representation of people of color in comic books and movies. Same thing with the Queer Comics Podcast, right? That’s, that’s what we’re talking about. And, and we go into the, like, we celebrate. And we also talk about like, doesn’t doesn’t feel good? Why? Oh, okay. Yeah. some insight, some understanding, you learn something, it’s good. That’s the foundation, I that’s it, I want to celebrate everything we’ve done, we’ve built on that. It’s just so I’m so I’m so proud of everything we’ve accomplished and everything that that we’re doing. And I’m glad that we’re at a point now where we, you know, we’re growing things are happening, and also that we have like the clarity to be able to talk about things in a in a in that way when necessary. Because I don’t think it’s always, again, there’s like a very specific way to talk about it at a workshop. But like the conversations we have here, are there essentially thatLara Taylor 11:22 they are that it’s just more casual, actually don’t have to go like break down. What is the A? What is the R? What is it the U?Josué Cardona 11:32 Exactly? Exactly? Exactly. Yeah. Because that’s boring. So if you’re a therapist or a teacher, don’t do that. Either. You do that in your head. You do that in your head, you don’t do that out loud.Lara Taylor 11:44 Unless the client asks like, What the hell are you doing? Why are we Geeking out?Josué Cardona 11:48 If you’re doing it, right, they’re not?Lara Taylor 11:50 If you do not, right, they’re not. But there are some people who are very, like, I am curious as to why you do the things you’re doing in the room.Josué Cardona 11:59 And it’s actually yeah, it’s fun to explain it, actually. But it reminds me of like, trying to practice, like, legit hardcore person centered. Also, like I say that, but probably like not well trained person centered, where you’re just repeating what people say back to you, right? It’s like, Oh, I feel this way. It’s like, Oh, you feel that way? Like you do that with with really little kids. And they’re like, why are you repeating everything I’m saying? adults don’t catch on as easily. The kids are like, Why? Why are you repeating everything I’m saying? Oh, you’re getting everything you’re saying.Lara Taylor 12:39 I mean, it’s just it’s a taste to their own. own medicine. The copycat game, right? Yeah,Josué Cardona 12:47 yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, you’re copying me. Exactly. Exactly. Well, um, both of you have actually written something recently about, you didn’t know this. But I’ve asked you both to write your stories. I’ve been asking a lot of people on the on the network to kind of write their story and share it and then we’ll Link to them later. But again, this feels like it’s the start of the 10th. The 10th birthday. It feels like a party. 300 again, it’s a mileston. Feels so good. Feel so good. I’m curious if you’ve already written it down. And it’s a you know, there’ll be published by the time that this episode goes up. But I’m curious if anything you want to share looking back at 10 years, you know, neither of you have been here for all 10 years, but it feels that way. I don’t know. I think Laura wrote something like that. Like, it feels like is this supposed to be? Is that good? In a good way? Actually, explain yourself louder. That’s the first thing.Lara Taylor 14:07 I came, it’s been eight years. Here. It’ll be eight years next month. And like, Yeah, I don’t know. It’s even though it hasn’t been a decade. It has been my almost my entire career as from starting my master’s program, like it was a year after I started, but like before I started meeting with clients in a more official way, right? I’ve been in the field for a lot longer than that. I don’t even want to think about how long I’ve been in the field. But it’sJosué Cardona 14:43 Because you’re old.Lara Taylor 14:49 what I think the gist of what I was trying to get at in what I wrote is that I can’t imagine I don’t even know what I imagined my career being before. I I met you and started talking about all this Geek Therapy stuff. But it definitely wasn’t this. Eight years ago, you never could have got me on a podcast. Maybe I was to I did start writing a blog, I could have seen myself doing that. But like, my relationships with my clients would still be authentic. But like, maybe I wouldn’t lean so hard into arguing with people I work with about being able to wear the hats I wear and the shirts I wear and having my geeky stuff in my office and like, I have people come to me. Now, because of my photo, in my bio, I mentioned Geek Therapy. And I mentioned using people’s passions and comics and video games in therapy.Josué Cardona 15:56 The correct term is affinity. We just went over that.Lara Taylor 15:59 passions, passions.Josué Cardona 16:01 I mean, I’m sorry, I don’t want to interrupt you. But I know I’m sure I’ve mentioned this at some point. But at some point, I debated whether or not to call it passion therapy. And I don’t regret not doing that. But there was a time when he felt like the most appr…

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We the GT People Jun 13, 2021

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#304: Link watched Netflix’s We the People, a short animated musical series about US government, and wanted to discuss it with the team. We talk about how, while similar to Schoolhouse Rock, it ultimately feels more like visually attractive propaganda than useful educational content. Transcript Josué Cardona 0:11Welcome to gt radio on the Geek Therapy network here at Geek Therapy. We believe that the best way to understand each other and ourselves is through the media we care about. My name is Josué Cardona joined by Lara Taylor. Lara Taylor 0:21Hey, Josué Cardona 0:23and Link Keller. Link Keller 0:23Hello? Josué Cardona 0:26Link What’s up? What are we talking about today? Link Keller 0:28What’s up? Hey, howdy. I watched yesterday and today, a new short series on Netflix called We the People. And it came out on Fourth of July very fitting an Josué Cardona 0:49educational, Link Keller 0:50educational and I wanted to talk about it with you guys. Josué Cardona 0:53Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Why? Why, though? Link Keller 1:02Because it’s something that I watched. Lara Taylor 1:07That’s the name of the episode. Link Keller 1:11Um, because I thought it was it was very cool. It’s in in the vein of Schoolhouse Rock. It is educational, short. Music videos, basically. And it was produced by the Obamas, which is a big a big selling point for some people. Josué Cardona 1:37My neighbors. Link Keller 1:38Yeah? Josué Cardona 1:39yeah. Their house is a couple blocks away. Link Keller 1:42Oh, right. Yeah, look at you. Yeah. But yeah, I thought I thought it was really interesting. Um, I, you know, it’s me. So of course, I have some criticisms, but overall thought it was gorgeous animation. And the songs are fun. And some of them are legitimately earworms. So, yeah, I wanted to talk about with you guys and see what y’all thought and yeah, try and process it together. Josué Cardona 2:15Okay, where do you want to start? Link Keller 2:20At the very beginning, it’s a very good place to start. let me get my notebook. Lara Taylor 2:27Now that song is stuck in my head thanks. Link Keller 2:29I know, right? Josué Cardona 2:31which one? Lara Taylor 2:32From the sound of music. Josué Cardona 2:38What are in your notes, Link? What’ve you got? Link Keller 2:40honestly, I did. I did not take very extensive notes. I got really hung up on wanting to know anything about the animation, because that was not something that was being promoted very much focus on the Obamas. And then the the musical people, some of whom are very well known. Special shout out to Janelle Monae is my personal favorite. Josué Cardona 3:04no way! Link Keller 3:08but yeah, yeah, I was I was interested in the animation stuff. I had to fight with Netflix to actually watch through the credits. To find them, Lara Taylor 3:24because they wanted you to, like watch a new thing or watch the next thing or whatever. Link Keller 3:29Yeah, this this is a real aside, and not related to the topic. But by God, you’ve given me an opportunity to talk about Netflix. What the hell that was. Awful viewing experience for me. My housemates had watched it first. So they like watched it, and it auto played through all 10 episodes. So when I watched it, it showed that they had already been played, but except for the very end of it. And so I was like, Oh, what is it going to do? At the end of every episode, instead of playing the next episode, it showed me a trailer for a different show. Every. one. every one of them and then I went back to rewatch it again, and that time it did autoplay. And then today, I watched it again and it was very inconsistent. Sometimes it autoplayed sometimes it showed trailers. Sometimes it wouldn’t let me like it wouldn’t even give me the watch credits button. Like it just it just wouldn’t give it to me at all. Man. I got real I got real mad at Netflix about it. Oh, okay, rant over Lara Taylor 4:30you can write an angry letter. Link Keller 4:33That’s what I said. I’m like, I’m going to write a strongly worded email to Netflix about this. very infuriating. I just want to see who the heck animated this thing, beautiful piece of animation. Josué Cardona 4:45First of all, why we’re using someone else’s profile. That’s messed up. Lara Taylor 4:49You can have another profile on a Netflix Josué Cardona 4:52I’m just saying. I’m just saying if the first time you went through and someone had already watched it, and you can see that they had already watched it. That’s um yeah I dunno, I don’t think that’s polite to use. Link Keller 5:03Oh, no, I like sharing. Josué Cardona 5:04Oh, no, Link Keller 5:05I’m all about sharing Josué Cardona 5:07get your own profile. Link Keller 5:09It is my profile. they were watching it on mine nyehh Josué Cardona 5:15Somebody being disrespectful is all I’m saying. And I want to point that out. Yeah, yeah, seriously. That’s not okay. Link Keller 5:25I thought it was fine. It’s I put blame on Netflix, whoever, whatever system they’re using to program the autoplay and trailer watching features. I don’t understand them, and it frustrates me. Yeah, just want to watch the credits without having to fight you for it. Josué Cardona 5:47So I had feelings going through it. Um, Link Keller 5:53yes. Back Back to We the People, the actual topic at hand here. Tell me your feelings Josué. How did you feel about it? Josué Cardona 5:59So, obviously, at some point, I was like, oh, okay, is this trying to be like Schoolhouse Rock? This is trying to be educational. At one point, I thought, there were a few things I thought I thought I’m watching and going through all 10 I was like this is this is why we have 20 different podcasts and we don’t do everything we want to talk about. On one feed, because they feel so different. That it doesn’t feel… it feels it feels strange, right? And then the many times I was thinking about Hamilton and I was like, Why Why doesn’t this feel as good as Hamilton? Like Like there’s production quality here there’s there’s known artists there’s money behind it and Lara Taylor 6:44There’s no Lin-Manuel Miranda, Link Keller 6:45there is a Lin-Manuel Miranda!! He’s in the fourth song Josué Cardona 6:52and he went hard Link Keller 6:53about the three branches. Josué Cardona 6:54He’s very excited. in that song too. Link Keller 6:55yes Lara Taylor 6:57I’m sure he is. Josué Cardona 6:59He’s super into it Link Keller 7:00Hamilton was definitely also inspiration for for the series. I think the big difference is that Hamilton was telling a story. Josué Cardona 7:12Yep. Link Keller 7:13Over over and you know, an hour to two and a half hours however long the play is that these were like three and a half minute songs. So even though some of them had a story element to them. Most of it was the content was not a story. The content was providing information to a sick catchy beat. Some of the animation had stories to it. I one that comes to mind is the First Amendment. I felt like the story that the song was telling. It didn’t match. It didn’t it didn’t did not match up. The words of the song did not match up with what was happening in the visuals. Josué Cardona 8:00Yep, that’s what I think for me, I believe it was federal versus state power is the only one that felt like a story. Because it was like a like a. Like they made the I think it was I think that’s the one but the federal government was like a character. And it was it was talking about about, you know, like, what its role is and how it you know, and its relationship with Link Keller 8:28relationship to each other. Yeah, Josué Cardona 8:29I was like, okay, there’s a there’s a character that’s telling me a story. But the rest, it felt like someone who’s reading this is it felt like someone was reading something out of a textbook. And it felt like a like, Lara Taylor 8:44sort of pulled you out of it? Josué Cardona 8:46There was there was why I kept thinking like, how, how would I recommend this to someone? Or when would I recommend this as I’m wanting to who? i? I couldn’t I could never find an answer for that. There was never a satisfying answer for me, for any of them. Also, some of them like are wrong. Like, for an educational thing? There should there should there should be factual and they are not, which was infuriating. Link Keller 9:21Give us an example. Josué Cardona 9:22Immigration, for example, is one of them. Where in the chorus. It’s like, hey, you’re an American citizen. They can do stuff like vote for the President. I was like I can I can tell you I know. I can give you millions of Americans, citizens who do not have the right to vote for president. Link Keller 9:37Yep. Josué Cardona 9:38And and, and the courts. The courts was infuriating the courts that one, that one at that point, I had to stop. I was actually I was actually mad. I was mad. I wanted to walk over to the Obama’s house and tell them a piece of my mind. Lara Taylor 9:54I’m glad you said those words and not something else because the Secret Service might be listening Josué Cardona 10:00Look, I have a story about that would be Link Keller 10:04welcome listeners of the Secret Service. Oh, yeah, no, I agree. Lara Taylor 10:09Get Obama to listen to our show Link Keller 10:11immigration and the courts, both of those were tough to watch without my my media psych brain and my, like, raging leftist brain going off it was it was hard to just watch those I got really hung up on. I desperately want to know who got to choose which court cases were listed, and which, which foreign citizens were listed. Like, I’m like, who, who decided what got what got put in here and what did not like I want to know, Lara Taylor 10:54and that person might be listed in those credits that you had to fight to watch, but you’ll never know which one. But Josué Cardona 11:01the immigration one, I think that really bothered me that they showed, like a famous person in quotes for some countries, but for somebody like, I don’t know, we can’t find a single Egyptian, you know, American citizen. It’s like, Oh, Link Keller 11:14yeah, United Kingdom, that they just left that one blank. I was like, Really? Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. interesting choice. Josué Cardona 11:23So it’s like, it’s like Wayne Gretzky for Canada, right. And then, like Sofía Vergara for Columbia, and then what? And then it was it was it bothered me. It just wasn’t one for each one. Link Keller 11:37Yeah. First thing is like, Okay, why is it not consistent on that? And then second, like, okay, who got to choose because there’s not just one person for each of these categories? Like you had somebody made a decision here, but who and how, what was their criteria? And? Josué Cardona 11:55Yeah, yeah, it was, um, again, the immigration one really, really bothered me. Because Link Keller 12:05it was over simplifying to the point of doing damage to people, I would say, Josué Cardona 12:12I think that’s probably it. It’s like, it’s like, it’s like it was a dictionary definition of immigration, and not and not an education on. It wasn’t a three minute education on immigration. It was because I’m only expecting so much from a song that’s 3 minutes long. I’m my expectations are Lara Taylor 12:31immigration, Well, I guess you could argue that all the topics are probably not easily summed up in three minutes. But immigration, I know, a lot of you can nuance that you could I don’t Link Keller 12:43it is difficult, but this was this Lara Taylor 12:46but they chose it. Josué Cardona 12:48It’s what you chose to say with your three minutes that that that makes the difference? Link Keller 12:53Yeah. Josué Cardona 12:55Yeah. Link Keller 12:55So we’re for clarification for our listeners, if you haven’t seen Josué Cardona 13:00what is We the People? Link Keller 13:01if you haven’t seen it yet is in the court. I am paraphrasing the lyrics, but basically says if you’re born in America, you’re already a citizen. If you live somewhere else, there’s still an option for you. All you have to do is wait a couple of years and say that you love America best. And then it goes on about how we’re a nation of immigrants. And isn’t it great how we can vote and and showing all these beautiful people from all over the world and everything. But simplifying our immigration process into, you know, just you know, you might have to wait a couple of years and all you have to do is like pass a test and then say that like, Oh my god, America is my favorite. Yeah, oversimplification to the point of, of potentially causing harm for people if they if they do not do additional research, if they don’t have contextual information, if this is all that they’re getting. No, it is not good education. It is incredibly optimistic. Sometimes. Josué Cardona 14:12But it feels unrealistic. It’s not It’s not even it’s not just optimistic. It’s unrealistic. Like, like, it feels like it feels like a lie. Sometimes. Link Keller 14:20I okay, I came across… Josué Cardona 14:22What’s the thing? What’s the thing? What’s the thing that’s like? A lie. It’s not true. Lara Taylor 14:29a Lie. Josué Cardona 14:29No. Link Keller 14:31Fiction? Josué Cardona 14:33No, it’ll come to me later. Lara Taylor 14:34a fallacy? Josué Cardona 14:38nah, like, I feel like it has an agenda and you know, iy’s trying to, I don’t know, can’t think of it? Link Keller 14:42Oh, it’s a word that you’re trying to think of? Josué Cardona 14:45Yeah, Link Keller 14:46it’ll come to you. It’ll come. Sure. Okay. We’ll stop and we’ll circle back around to it. I came I came across an article on variety, which I feel sort of encapsulates my own own feelings about it pretty well. It is by Caroline Framke it is titled “Netflix’s we the people from executive producers Barack and Michelle Obama puts optimistic spin on civic duty”. And there is a line “the clash between the series overall commitment to viewing the government through rose colored glasses and trying to be as truthful as possible is unavoidably confusing. We the people is at its core well, meaning it’s just not especially illuminating in the way I would like it to be. Having preemptively stopped itself from exploring anything beyond the basics.” Josué Cardona 15:39Does it say the way I would like it to be or the way it would like it to be Link Keller 15:42the way it would like to be. Josué Cardona 15:43It would like to be Link Keller 15:44also the way I would like it to be. Yeah, I, um, somebody phrased it as it feels like, it is very intentionally ignoring what has happened the past four, five years, and, Lara Taylor 16:06tried to make it like a blip. Josué Cardona 16:08Oh, yeah, Link Keller 16:09it’s just it feels optimistic, but optimistic circa like, 2015. And, and it can feel very jarring, um, Josué Cardona 16:18especially the courts, Link Keller 16:20especially, especially immigration and the courts. Yeah. Josué Cardona 16:26Yeah, cuz, cuz like, because like immigration, I get it like that. That might that could be your brochure. Right? It’s like, you know, you’re trying to but the courts. That one, just that one hurt it, I felt pain with the courts. And yeah, it’s like it feels it feels like a misrepresentation of the country. Not just the topics, right? Because obviously, it’s, it’s about America, all of it is about America. And it feels Yeah, yeah, I think I think that quote from from that article, I think, I think sums it up real well. There’s, Link Keller 17:11yeah, Josué Cardona 17:12you I had a student of mine. It was great. I love it. When you know, the students from a long time ago, reach out to you. And former student, Sean reaches out to me as Mr. Cardona. Do you think that, like, podcasts are like long enough to really get into a topic? Right. And I was like, that’s an interesting question. And obviously, it depends, right? I mean, depends on the podcast. But I think, I think one of the reasons why podcasts are so popular is because they’d let you just go off on a topic, you’re not limited. And but even then, like, if…

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My Favorite Therapy on the Citadel Jun 06, 2021

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#303: Lara leads a discussion about leveling up inspired by Mass Effect and a really good therapy session. We discuss the various ways we metaphorically and literally level up in life, and how we experience feedback systems. Transcript Link Keller 0:11Welcome to Geek Therapy radio on the Geek Therapy network where we believe that media matters and we care about it. And when we talk about it, we understand ourselves and other people better. I am a host, not the one maybe you were expecting. But I am a host, Link Keller, and I’m joined by my two glorious High Definition co hosts, Josué A Cardona. Josué Cardona 0:40Hello, Link Keller 0:42and Lara Taylor. Lara Taylor 0:44I just can’t even. Josué Cardona 0:47This wasn’t bad. Lara Taylor 0:48This wasn’t bad. Josué Cardona 0:49This isn’t bad Link Keller 0:50when I tell you how quickly I got sweaty. Josué Cardona 0:54I don’t hate it Link Keller 0:55just immediately. Josué Cardona 0:57Yeah, yeah. No, I’m good. Welcome, everybody. You okay, Lara? Lara Taylor 1:03I will be. Josué Cardona 1:05Okay. Good. It’s your topic, because we need to. So whenever you ready? Lara Taylor 1:12I’ll do some breathing, you know? Yeah. Okay. Yeah, it is my topic. So I want to talk about leveling up. Does that mean? What does that mean? Yeah. I mean, you know, in games, we level up. Why can’t we level up in real life too? Josué Cardona 1:27Amen. No, let’s do it. Let’s do it. Lara Taylor 1:31I spend a lot of time leveling up. I’ve been playing Mass Effect one, I just beat it like, a week ago. Josué Cardona 1:38Now you you reset to zero? Lara Taylor 1:39Now, I reset to zero. It’s okay. It’s okay, I got a bunch of benefits for importing my level 45. Shepherd. So Josué Cardona 1:47I like in real life a lot more like in real life when you start a new job, but you have all that experience from the previous experience? And then and then yeah, yeah, it helps, you know, Lara Taylor 1:57um, but this topic came up, because I, when I’m working with clients, there’s some times where they’re like, I spout a lot of bullshit. Sometimes, you know, therapists, there’s a meme, I’ve seen going around, like a therapist will open their mouth, and you never know what’s going to come out. And but there are times where I drop little kernels of wisdom that I cannot remember as soon as I say them. But I had a client this week, one of those kernels of wisdom came out of my mouth, like, Whoa, I never thought about it that way. And then they had this realization, and then it was like, I feel like I just leveled up. And I was like, That’s amazing. Um, how’d that go, conversation about like, now I have more experience, or now I’ve got these skills and things like that, um, we stretched the metaphor quite a bit in that session. But I think about things like, there’s those kinds of breakthroughs and things like that can be leveling up, but also, other ways we can level up in life. Oh, Josué Cardona 3:07yeah, yeah. Yeah. So so so they they said, like, I feel like I leveled up like, yeah, like, I mean, of course, don’t go into detail about about what it was. But like, from your perspective, when they said that, what that? First of all, why did you immediately understand what they meant when they said, Because? Lara Taylor 3:27Because I’m a gamer, and because they’re a gamer. And I think, at that point, we, earlier in the session, we’ve been talking about, like, we’d both been playing Mass Effect. And so that was a, that was a thing, too. Josué Cardona 3:42Did you understand, like, what they meant by leveling up, again, conceptually, but like, what they leveled up in, like, which stat suddenly went up? Lara Taylor 3:52Not necessarily, I think what we kind of compared it to, and this is earlier in the weekend, like I said, in most of the stuff just like things go out of my head, I’m dealing with like 35 people a week, it’s, it’s okay. Um, or 31 people a week now. Um, so one of the things that happened was like, thinking about like, what I said was like, when you go and talk to somebody in an MMO or something and you get like an item that you need to turn in a quest, and then in their brain, they had like, experience points go up, and then I leveled up DING above their head, you know. It’s great. I love it. Link Keller 4:37They had a quest, the quest was to go to therapy. They went to therapy, they got the XP points. That was enough boom! level up right there. that was it. Lara Taylor 4:40That was exactly, exactly just just a little bit, just a little bit. But I think that you know, this client’s been seeing me for a while so they’re getting experience points every time they come to see me and we Have a moment like that or, or similarly, like, just doesn’t have to be like, Oh, I just leveled up and I don’t always drop these like wisdom bombs, but like, just gaining skills and things that they can do and information to perceive situations differently. So if it was a stat that something got dropped into, probably wisdom. Josué Cardona 5:27I like it Lara Taylor 5:27just saying Josué Cardona 5:28Yeah, yeah, yeah. Lara Taylor 5:30Yeah, I was I first my brain was like going to intelligence but like, no wisdom, wisdom. Josué Cardona 5:37They had all the information already. This wasn’t new information. It was it was definitely wisdom Lara Taylor 5:42seeing it in a different way. Yeah, Josué Cardona 5:43yeah. Yeah. I like this. I like this a lot. Yeah, we talked about a ha moment and, you know, understanding stuff, but I have been good. Leveling up. Yeah. You know, Jane McGonigal, his books, the one she did super better when she designed that game. She talks about this. In the super better book, there’s, there’s this concept of a powerup. And I’ve always used that language. And with clients, even ones who aren’t gamers, they kind of get it right. It’s like, What’s something that energize you fills your batteries blah blah, etc. But like, what’s a powerup? But But pumps you up, but makes you feel better. But that’s different, right? That’s like something. It’s like a like a temporary stat boost. It’s like, it’s not actual leveling up and going up. And that’s a that’s such a, but it is it is a feeling that I don’t I think about that all the time. Like in my head. I’m like, oh, like I just leveled up in this. And but like, it’s hard to count, what would be the non gaming? What non gaming terms? Would I use, or have I used to describe that? Lara Taylor 6:53you learn something? Josué Cardona 6:56No, because it’s Lara Taylor 6:59the other parts of the metaphor I want to get to don’t necessarily have to do with learning something or gaining knowledge. Josué Cardona 7:06There’s more? Go for it. Oh, Lara Taylor 7:08I mean, we’re talking like, what other ways are there in our lives that we can level up like, I can now that I’ve been hiking every week, and hiking every other week with my dad, and he pushes me a little harder, because he likes to hike more than I do. I can go for three, four miles now. And the beginning of the pandemic, I could barely make it one mile without being exhausted. So that’s leveling up. I’m about to possibly take a promotion at my job, and I feel okay about it. And that’s leveling up. I feel like in some way. Josué Cardona 7:47So what I want to stay on that, Link Keller 7:48the promotion and also the Lara Taylor 7:50feeling okay Link Keller 7:52feeling a way about it. Lara Taylor 7:54Yeah. Yeah. Josué Cardona 7:56There’s, there’s something it’s a little it’s a lot easier when the levels are defined? Lara Taylor 8:03Are designed, Yeah, right. And they’re a hierarchy. Josué Cardona 8:06Yeah, exactly. It’s like, Okay, I’m literally going up a level, I’m moving up the floor, like something like that. And even even with the with the trail or with hiking, if it’s whether it’s time, or like, there’s some Lara Taylor 8:17distance, time, you can measure things differently. Yeah, Josué Cardona 8:20there’s a quantitative version of that. But there definitely wasn’t that for your client. Right? I think a lot of times, like, it’s just, it’s just, like, just kind of feel it. It just kind of happens. There’s, there’s a difference. I can’t think of one right now. lately. I haven’t. My memory hasn’t been good when we’re live recording. But the there games where you see the XP bar, right? And it’s filling up and you’re like doing all these things. There’s other games where like, you don’t see that at all. And suddenly, like something happens or something, you did something that was so big that it filled up that bar and you weren’t expecting it to fill up. And suddenly you get that like, like, level 53. Like you just got there. Like, it’s like, it’s surprising, right? I think I feel like that’s kind of those moments that your client went through, right? Like, I didn’t know that today, I was going to level up, I didn’t know that I was going to feel this way. I didn’t know that I was going to unlock new abilities. Lara Taylor 9:18And in that same vein, like my company does, like weekly surveys, I can’t always get my clients to get the surveys done. But it’s usually like assessing anxiety and depression levels, and we track it over time. That’s the more quantitative whatever, and we can see that but that is very different from like, like they’re, they can see that they’re feeling better, but sometimes they still don’t notice it. And so in the session having that like, Oh, I didn’t think about that way. Now I have this other perspective and my worlds opened up that is like, Oh, no, that’s very different from Like, oh, yeah, I noticed my depression anxiety is different. Josué Cardona 10:04Yeah. Or Congratulations, you just did 10 sessions of therapy. Lara Taylor 10:08Exactly. Josué Cardona 10:09That’s not that doesn’t necessarily feel. Link Keller 10:13brrrt [horn noise] Josué Cardona 10:13Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Right. Lara Taylor 10:16Right. Josué Cardona 10:16That’s kind of thing, right? If there’s no app, there’s bad design, right? Like, if you just level up and then nothing happens, that that kind of sucks. Or sometimes, like, oh, but you know, even even games where you just get one point to put into your stats or to put into something. At least that’s something right, that you’re like, you’re still looking forward to leveling up, because it’s not just a number, something changes something, you know, the experience moving forward changes. Sometimes also, Lara Taylor 10:49I was gonna say is interesting playing d&d, my favorite levels are the ones where you get like, new abilities or whatever. And then I’m like, eh, I just get to move put another point in an attribute or whatever? wah wah. I want some cool, like, I want new sneak attack skills, or I want new this skill. Like, yeah, it’s cooler when you get a little more. Josué Cardona 11:12Yeah, that’s, that’s why I like some games way better than others. Like when that when that happens. I’m actually in in Mass Effect. You have two options for for your levels. Do you know what the differences are between the two? Lara Taylor 11:26In or you’re talking about the new legendary stuff, right? Because there’s, there’s you can go to level 60, which I think is the classic one, and there’s level because I never played the original. And then there’s level 30, you can get 30 is the max. So you get the same amount of skill points, but Josué Cardona 11:41in a shorter amount of time. Is it? Is it a shorter amount of time? Or is Lara Taylor 11:46it time is it’s distributed differently? I think, yeah. Josué Cardona 11:50Yeah, I looked this up at first, and I wasn’t sure what it meant. Lara Taylor 11:55I don’t know what the cap was for the original one. But that if I had a level 45 I thought I did it the way it’s set up for legendary, so I don’t know, anyway. Josué Cardona 12:05Yeah. Yeah. Well, but that’s kind of what it is. Right? They redesigned it for the for the new versions. So it’s, I believe that’s right, I think it’s half the levels. or it’s the other way around? Anyway, there’s one option is 30, one option is 60. And, um, last year, I was Lara Taylor 12:23basically each time you level up, you get like double this stuff, but it might take longer to level up. Josué Cardona 12:29Yeah, I don’t know. If that’s true, then I don’t I don’t, I don’t like that. I hate when you spend a long time without leveling up. Last year. Last year, I was I was studying Japanese and I was doing a program to learn kanji. And there’s 2000 characters that make up the the Japanese kanji alphabet. And that was the program I was doing had levels and had 60 levels. But sometimes it took so it took weeks to go from one level to another, even if you were studying every day. And it does not like that just kept dragging on right. There was like something about like, not making, it’s not even about like, Oh, I didn’t. Because the truth is usually when you level up, like, you know, you just got a promotion, like, sorry to break it to you. But that means more responsibility. Like, like you just like, things get harder, right? Like, the game levels up. You know, that’s one of those games that you know, usually the world there’s world leveling, so it doesn’t necessarily get easier. There’s maybe there’s new enemies. Lara Taylor 13:29everything scales with you, everything scales with you Josué Cardona 13:32that’s one of those again, it depends. It depends. Often when you get a promotion Lara Taylor 13:36shhh going to it’s going to scale with me. Josué Cardona 13:38No, no, I’m saying sometimes the jobs, it doesn’t scale with you. And again, it gets easier, your job actually gets easier. But that depends on the job. It depends on the job, Lara Taylor 13:51it depends on the job. Josué Cardona 13:53So but there’s something there’s something about the reward of it, there’s something about the feeling of progression, there’s something about you know, unlocking new things and so if that’s designed properly, like you know, it’s meaningful, I feel like you know when take Okay, now I can do something new or things are changing. I can see things that I couldn’t see before and Link Keller 14:17so those are those are all different different things. those those are all people respond to those aspects differently. Josué Cardona 14:29Yep, Link Keller 14:29I know. It’s what it sounds like to me that you are saying Josué is that you prefer some sort of consistence perseverance level up. Versus versus Lara Taylor 14:47you don’t want to play Wow, where you level up, level up, level up and then you get to the cap in there and it takes weeks to level up. Link Keller 14:54The idea of being like small but consistent rewards versus inconsistent but larger rewards and different people are going to be drawn to those contextually, right, there is a difference in, you know, if we’re talking about jobs is like waiting several years and and working and then building up to the big promotion and that’s the level up versus the other way of framing that would be like, you know, oh, every six months when you have like a check in with your supervisor and you know, Lara Taylor 15:31get a small increase, Link Keller 15:33or Yeah, small pay increase, you know, you get Josué Cardona 15:38validation, Link Keller 15:39you get a certificate added on to whatever. And those are, those are very different types of leveling up. And I think is really interesting. When we put them all together. It’s like, yes, leveling up, conceptually. Lara Taylor 15:56but there’s so many different ways Link Keller 15:57but there’s so many, so many different ways for that to be rewarding, like, like you said, Josué like there’s the aspect of literally new things novelty, like you unlocking new power, and it can be novelty in the way of having new things to explore. Yeah, yeah. Josué Cardona 16:18So So I’ve talked about Genshin Impact for a few episodes, that’s one of those games and like, there’s other games like this, but sure you have your so there’s a world level that goes up…

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Small Changes, Big Outcomes May 30, 2021

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#302: The team chats about little changes leading to big outcomes, including; video game patch notes, dietary changes, character adaptation, and the cascading effects of new information. Ultimately we conclude that small changes are only small in perspective – all change can lead to big outcomes. Transcript Josué Cardona 0:11Welcome to gt radio on the Geek Therapy network. here Geek Therapy We believe that the best way to understand each other and ourselves through the media we care about. My name is Josué Cardona. I’m joined by Link Keller. Link Keller 0:20Hello, Josué Cardona 0:22and Lara Taylor. Lara Taylor 0:23What’s up? Josué Cardona 0:25So, today? I’ve been thinking about a few things. So we’re celebrating the 10th anniversary of GT. Josué Cardona 0:38Whoo. Josué Cardona 0:39Geek Therapy is turning 10. And there is there are a lot of big changes. But there are also little changes that we’re making. And I am I am shocked by how some of these little changes have made such a such a huge difference, I’ll give you an example. So I’m a new member of the team, Elaine Chen, helping me with graphic design, helping us all improve things that need improving. Not since Lara’s wife has anyone. So just matter of factly told me, this sucks. This sucks. She’s never said this sucks. But she has. Lara Taylor 1:20That’s nice, constructive criticism. Josué Cardona 1:22Like nina, yeah, maybe Lara Taylor 1:24got better after that, you know, this graphic sucks. And this intro sucks. Josué Cardona 1:32Nina is a little nicer now. Josué Cardona 1:33She is. Josué Cardona 1:34But Elaine has been helping out. And sometimes it’s like, even in the graphic design thing. small little changes make such a big difference. Like, like, just like, the little little tweaks like even don’t even like it. You familiar with the term? kerning? do you know what kerning is? Link Keller 1:52Yes, Josué Cardona 1:53it’s the spacing between letters. Right. So even that, like that’s something that I didn’t see, like I didn’t know before. And once I learned it, you can’t unsee it? Link Keller 2:03Oh, yeah. Josué Cardona 2:04Like, those two letters are closer than all the other letters are close to each other. That doesn’t look right. Like that’s why why is it like that? And it’s just small things like that can make such a big difference to different people. Anyway, but that’s like, it’s a small thing. But I’ve been thinking about how often and like you’re watching a show, you’re watching, you know, and suddenly there’s, there’s a sure there are big changes, but sometimes it’s like, it’s like a little change. That makes a huge difference. And sometimes there’s different versions of this, right, there’s, there’s the story introduces an element that seems small, but eventually it becomes very big. Sometimes there are patches and updates the games that like it’s like, the 37th line in the patch notes, right, it’s a small little thing. But for someone it can be they can make such a huge difference. And I think we’ve touched on some of this in terms of when we talk about accessibility, how sometimes something that seems small can make such a such a huge difference. Now, whether some of these things are actually small or not, it’s not that that is debatable. I think it’s, um, it’s relative, its objective. But I think that this has always been something that’s super helpful, where you have a metaphor for for change, and you’re working with someone or you’re talking to someone, and they, they, there’s, there’s something that there’s there’s a problem that they’re trying to solve, or there’s something that they’re dealing with something that is an obstacle or a burden, or just you know, something that is causing some kind of stress, and, and sometimes very, very small, like, we feel like we have to make all these huge changes, like, I don’t know, a version that I’m sure is relatable to most people is a diet, right? Sometimes you’re like, oh, like I don’t want to diet and exercise. And it’s such a huge change. It’s all these things I have to do. But sometimes there’s like one thing that you can change, by just doing a little less of one thing or a little less of another, changing the timing of things that, again, can be kind of small, can have a huge effect on your health. And when we’re talking about mental health and relationships that are some things that are just super tiny. Right? And sometimes they’re so small that we don’t think that they would make a difference, but they actually, they actually do make a difference. But I was thinking that, that when we recognize those and when they happen in like a game or or or in a show or something it it does make like it’s it’s easier to to pinpoint because it’s not something that’s affecting you. But I feel like the metaphor really, really works. And I know you and I Lara we we brought up the topic really quick yesterday, and we came up with a whole bunch of cool examples. So I’m just curious, the topic in general like does it does it bring something to mind? Like, how often does this happen? Like, with with clients where it’s like that, that idea of a small change, that could make a huge difference? Lara Taylor 5:14That, that comes up all the time, my own life, and with clients, right? Um, this idea of small changes, like, recently, client was dealing with discord drama, drama on their Discord server. And I was suggested, you know, how about, we just don’t open Discord. In the first like, half hour you’re awake, and do something else improve this clients mood greatly. because there wasn’t that immediate dread of looking at the discord and what was happening in the channels and the bid then fighting and all the stuff going on. It wasn’t it wasn’t a thing that they had to deal with. So they could instead enjoy their breakfast and time with their pets, and not have to worry about that till later. And just like it made the morning so much smoother, which then made the days so much smoother. Josué Cardona 6:18Have you realized what what did they did they think that it would have such a large effect on like, third day overall, Lara Taylor 6:24it was really more of a like, here, I guess I could try that. And then I checked in the last session we’d had and it was like, Oh, that was a big deal. Josué Cardona 6:39Cool. Lara Taylor 6:40Small changes, small changes. Josué Cardona 6:43That’s it. That’s it. That’s it. That’s a that’s an awesome example. That’s a really good example. Lara Taylor 6:47So moral of the story is don’t jump on Discord. Unless you’re happy with your discord servers. First thing in the morning. Josué Cardona 6:55Not all discord are created equal. Lara Taylor 6:58No, not all of them are. GT discord is pretty chill. Josué Cardona 7:04I can’t imagine. Yeah, Lara Taylor 7:06like I look forward to checking in. Josué Cardona 7:08Yeah, yeah, exactly. Maybe Maybe there’s too many channels. Maybe there’s been too much activity, but you know, not? Not. Not tidy city. Yeah. Well, yeah. Not one of those discords. Yeah. Yeah. Lara Taylor 7:22Small changes. And as far as like examples, we talked about, like web comics, right. Yeah. That Josué Cardona 7:28was a good example. Yeah, like, Lara Taylor 7:30when web comics, you can especially notice it when they put them in a in like, actual like printed book. And it’s because regular comics, if it’s a graphic novel, you will usually get someone starting from the inside out, or working outside in so that the art seems pretty fluid throughout the book. webcomic art style changes over 10 years, or something of drawing a comic, or even a couple years of drawing comics. So the art style will change and progressively get what the artists might feel like is better. Sometimes you don’t feel like it’s better as the reader but I think that you’ll notice those little changes and oh, there’s more. The colors, more contrast-y or like this is more defined in the character’s face, and it does make a huge difference. Josué Cardona 8:21So wait, but you said so like in comic books, it’s it’s typical for for the art to you start from the like the middle of the story. And then Lara Taylor 8:30a lot of times artists will do that. Because then it’s not. It will feel like you’re finishing and ending on the same art. So you’ll do different, you’ll it blends easier. It’s not a linear progression. And it tricks the brain. Not all artists will do that. But my wife, my wife went to cartooning school. So that’s what she says a lot of them will do. And I and she’s pointed it out to me in books. I can’t name one right now. But Josué Cardona 9:02yeah, that yeah, that’s cool. That’s a cool way of masking it. But But yeah, but like in webtoons, right. Like you said, like web comics it’s going through, you can definitely what I love about that is that as you’re going through the story you may not notice. Right, um, but if you were to Lara Taylor 9:19take it and like look at today’s episode, and like one from a year ago or two years ago, you’d be like, Whoa, that looks so different. Josué Cardona 9:27Yeah, yeah, yeah. Link Keller 9:29I haven’t read questionable content in years at this point. But that was a webcomic. I follow it a lot and very drastically changed its art style over 10 plus years that it’s been going on. They have the you know, the navigation bar at the top of the page to you know, go through the pages and accidentally clicking on like instead of back one chapter or clicking on the back to the beginning and then just just having that or original art welled up in my face like, Oh, god, oh, I wasn’t ready. Josué Cardona 10:07Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Link Keller 10:10It is very cool to get to see that kind of artistic growth. I think that is one of the benefits of web comics as a medium when compared to other types of comics. Lara Taylor 10:22Comic Strips too, you can see that like, if you look at the average, peanuts, you look at the style and how it’s changed in six. What was it 50-60 years that it ran? Like, it was very different. And you can see that there is a Snoopy for the 50s and the 60s and like all that there’s different Snoopies. Um, so, and none of them are some people that’s their favorite, which whichever decade is their favorite one. But the changes overall, you don’t usually notice because they’re more subtle throughout the years. Yeah. Link Keller 11:00It’s definitely the kinds of changes that you notice, like, in retrospect, more so than when the change is occurring? Maybe, Lara Taylor 11:10which is a lot of how life works. Josué Cardona 11:12Yeah. Yeah. Like, like, the obvious thing that’s jumping out to me at least is that, like, any big change is made up of many small changes, right? Like you couldn’t get there. You may not see exactly what was the first change that happened or what they were altering, but they kept improving. We’re getting closer to what they wanted to achieve over time. And sometimes the changes are so small, like, there’s some like small things that make a huge difference just on their own. But also, like every, every big change is composed of lots of small, or that’s the best way to do it. Right. Like many times when we feel very overwhelmed about making a change, to a call, there’s so much to do. And I know that happens to me. I mean, that’s been happening for four months now. Like we’ve been making so many changes, and I’ve been trying to go slowly, I’ve been trying to, to, to pace out the things that we’re doing, because it does feel overwhelming. And but there are moments when like you do one thing and like, Oh, we just flipped a switch and like, Oh, right. It’s not the only change we’ve made, but like that one thing, it feels huge, right? Or you think, oh, that’s gonna make a big difference. Or you realize later, lots of times you don’t realize it until much later that that particular thing made a huge difference. Yeah, Lara Taylor 12:29yeah. And those incremental changes are a lot, the smaller ones are easier to, to deal with and absorb. Like, I’ve brought up before reading The Walking Dead, I love the art in the first volume. And then I got the Compendium, and went to what would be the second volume, and I was like, I can’t stand the artwork anymore. And I hate this, because it was a huge difference. So Josué Cardona 12:56did you ever get used to it? Lara Taylor 12:59I tolerated it to get through the story. But then I did not get the second Compendium, because I just it was hard to keep track of who was who because everybody looked the same. And that was, I don’t know, it was I didn’t like it. And like the art and that that will make or break something for me. So like, smaller changes. Maybe a different artists who was trying to mimic the style and then make it their own over time might have been easier for me to palette. Josué Cardona 13:32Well, I think that’s a big change, though, that’s like a version of that I was thinking in TVs and movies. And when somebody gets recast, like, that’s a huge change. Like everybody can try to pretend you know, and you know, Lara Taylor 13:44most of the time they joke about that, like, you’re not the same person anymore. Whenever Josué Cardona 13:49Yeah, like even if you break the fourth wall and all that, but like, that’s not, that’s not a small change. That’s a huge, huge change. Even even if it’s an animated show, and the voice actor changes. That’s, that’s a pretty big, pretty big difference. Um, there’s, there’s, I was I was thinking about, sometimes when something changes mediums, like whether it’s a comic book that gets adapted into a movie, or a book that gets adapted into a movie, and that the changes that occur, right, like sometimes you they change things in the script, or they change a particular thing. And some some of those things are, are huge, and they make a big difference. A lot of them are controversial, and people hate them. But sometimes there’s like, really, really small things that you wouldn’t think would be a big deal. And they do it sometimes just to but actually, it’s like, that was written in the 80s we can’t say it like that anymore. And and then it’s like, oh, like now. Okay, and it wasn’t that big of a deal. Right? Right. that you just made a small a small change. Do you think of any, like right now of any situations like that, where something A change from one medium to another where there was a change like that. Link Keller 15:09Where the change was a positive thing? Josué Cardona 15:12Yes, because the negative one, but but there was a small even even if it was negative, but it was small, because again, some changes are huge. Right, like casting i think i think it’s a big change when you when you change the the race or the gender of a character, I think I think it’s usually good. Sometimes it can be very bad. It depends. If you’re whitewashing the character or doing something. You know, like, you’re, what’s the, what’s the word like? erasure, like, those things are bad, but those are still like big. I think those are big changes. It’s not a it’s not a small thing. To to change such a big part of a fun, original story. Link Keller 15:56It’s just I feel like, this is a difficult question. Because if if it is big enough in significance for us to remember it. Lara Taylor 16:07There’s probably something that we’re like, oh, no, or Oh, wow, that’s Yeah, but it’s bigger. Link Keller 16:13Like, I mean, I know that in the transformation from the Song of Ice and Fire book series into the game of thrones TV show. There were many large and small changes. I don’t remember I like I know off the top of my head that there were many characters where they would take three or four characters and just smoosh them up into one character in the show. But I couldn’t tell you off the top of my head any of them because I don’t I don’t remember. Yeah, they were small enough changes that it wasn’t a big deal. Josué Cardona 16:49I mean, I think those are like big changes to the source material, just…

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Bo Burnham Inside May 23, 2021

Show notes

#301: Link, Lara, and Josué talk about Bo Burnham’s recent Netflix special, Inside. We talk about what makes these songs so special, and how much they resonate with our experiences during the pandemic. Transcript Josué Cardona 0:00Welcome to gt radio on the Geek Therapy network. here at Geek Therapy We believe that the best way to understand each other and ourselves is through the media we care about. My name is Josué Cardona. And I’m joined by Lara Taylor. Lara Taylor 0:00Hey, Josué Cardona 0:00and Link Keller. Link Keller 0:23Hey. Josué Cardona 0:25So team this week, I want to tell you story. So this week, my sister went to visit my mom. And before I moved to Chicago, I left a whole bunch of boxes at my mom’s house. labeled numbered. Because I was going to come back in like three weeks to pick stuff up and then Lara Taylor 0:52and then a pandemic happened. Josué Cardona 0:52Yeah, so my sister’s there. And I told her like, hey, like my psvr? Is there like, take it with you for the kids? haven’t been back for? She was like, Oh, I don’t know what box it’s in. She said, they’re numbered. And I forgot that they were numbered. So then I looked, I was like, Oh, wait, I mean, I know until I checked my notes. And I had taken pictures of every box. And I had a checklist with all the things that were in each box. Lara Taylor 1:19That is how I wish I packed the last time I moved. And I think we did that for some boxes and boxes, it was just like, labeled random shit. Josué Cardona 1:28That’s not that’s not the way to do it. But the reason I did that is because I wanted to, when I came back, know exactly where things were. So I could either pack them up differently or do something. So as I’m helping her find this, and I’m looking at those pictures, I felt so sad. Because I remember when I took those pictures, and when I packed those boxes, I had an idea of I had plans. Everything is different. Now, the whole year. It’s been a year and a half since that happened, and just made me so sad to remember how I felt in that moment. And I tried to explain to my sister How sad I felt like she didn’t understand at all. Like what I was, she was like, oh, because you don’t have your stuff. And I was like, No, it was because like the entire, like, I had hopes and dreams that I built into these pictures and nothing happened the way I planned for it to happen. And I was so upset that she couldn’t understand the way I was feeling. And we always talk on the show about having media that you can just point to and be like, that’s how I feel. I don’t know if I have the words for it. I could only say that I was sad. But damn Bo Burnham’s inside gave me like for at least four different things that I could have pointed at yesterday to tell my sister or whatever that was my sister like that. That’s how I feel. I feel sad isn’t the word. It’s that it’s this. It’s this song is this song. So today we’re gonna talk about bo burnham’s inside, which I believe is a work of art and the most 2021 thing I’ve ever seen in my life, and I think it’s incredible. And thank you Link for insisting that. That’d be this week’s topic. Link Keller 2:33Yeah. yuuupp. Josué Cardona 2:35Was that a good setup? before? We’re gonna talk about? Josué Cardona 2:37Yes. Yes, I saw that it had popped up on Netflix. And I have, you know, watched some of Bo Burnham’s YouTube many years ago, and I like his work. And I was like, Oh, I’m gonna check that out. And then didn’t, and then my Tik tok, for you page became nothing but bo burnham Lara Taylor 2:52they would not shut up about it Link Keller 2:54And there were a couple that were just funny. And I was like, Okay, this is you’ve enticed me with your humor I’m in but there were a couple that you know, people were reacting to it in there, what they thought the meaning behind the songs were and pointing out you know, hidden details from the film and everything. And I was like, Okay, I gotta. I gotta sit down and watch this. And I loved it. and watched it like three four more times since then. Including earlier before recording I I watched it on one and a half speed because Netflix lets you do that now. Because I wanted to I’m showing this on the zoom for the audience. But yeah, yes, I I took I took notes. I wanted to take notes. And I only I only had an hour before recording and the special is an hour and 27 minutes so I had to work quickly. Josué Cardona 4:43I almost did the same thing. Something else yeah. Link Keller 4:48Yeah. I really enjoyed it. It does absolutely feel. So So representative of this this cultural moment of sort of like Coming out of the pandemic, that the pandemic is not over, people are still getting sick people are still dying. People still need to get vaccinated. It’s not donezos. But socially, culturally, we are in this like, okay, we’re finally getting to, like, go out again. And having this piece of art comedy short show the comedy special sort of dig through the experiences of 2020 and existing through the pandemic, particularly in social media spaces, because that was where we were allowed to be together. And so it was a wild ride and full of things for us to talk about. Josué Cardona 5:37Yeah, for any of you haven’t watched it? Yeah, he filmed this in one room at home, during the pandemic, and he talks but yeah, mostly songs with titles like FaceTime with my mom tonight; unpaid intern; look who’s inside again. Link Keller 6:10Welcome to the internet. Josué Cardona 6:12Welcome to the internet. Shit is a is a you may have heard that one. That one’s like all over tic Tok. Link Keller 6:25Yes. Josué Cardona 6:26Yep. Yeah. White woman’s Instagram is a is excellent. Yeah, there’s 20 tracks on this on this soundtrack. It is, um, it’s an experience. Yeah, so. Link to take it away. Where do you want to start? Link Keller 6:46Where do I want to start? Mmm hmm. Do I want to try and work through this crap. We’re not going to there’s not enough time to go as deep into this as I want to. Um, let’s just start what what’s your way? What? What is your favorite song? Pick one. Josué Cardona 7:05I think shit is my favorite song. I think Link Keller 7:06shit is very catchy. Josué Cardona 7:08It’s catchy. But also what you were saying. Like people are trying to understand what the lyrics mean. I’m like, yeah, how do you interpret what shit? What the lyrics? Link Keller 7:17Tell me how you feel? I feel like shit. Josué Cardona 7:19Yep. Yeah. Lara Taylor 7:21That’s pretty right there on the nose. Josué Cardona 7:25I mean, the lyrics go. How are you feeling out there tonight? I’m not feeling good. Wake up at 1130 feel like a bag of shit. All my clothes are dirty. smelly, like a bag of shit. And then, you know, it just keeps going. You don’t have time? I’d like to day. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. You know? That’s, that’s, uh, I remember those days. Link Keller 7:46Yeah, it definitely reflected a big vibe. I want to say like, eight months into the pandemic, when people were like, Oh, my God, this is still happening. And everybody’s just posting about like, lol, I’m, like, so depressed. I felt like that song really embodied that of just feeling absolutely garbage. But still feeling the need to perform in such a way of like, I’m still living my life things. They’re not normal, but things are still happening. And it’s like, I just fucking feel like shit. And I having a song that just says that is really nice. I sent you guys a tik tok where a musical therapist was talking about how she loved that song so much. Because that’s basically like, She’s like, if one of my clients wrote this. In my therapy, I wouldn’t lose my mind. This is exactly the kind of stuff I’m looking for. Ah, yeah. Josué Cardona 8:57Yes. For me, it was like October when I had gained over 20 pounds. I didn’t know where deodorant was because I didn’t use deodorant and so long because there was no need. I don’t remember if I brought that up on the show. Ever. Lara Taylor 9:10I think you did Josué Cardona 9:11i’m sure it’s come up in conversation because it was like, it was like a I remember that moment. I was like, I need deodorant. I have no idea where the deodorant is. Like, I like it wasn’t like at some point I put it away because I was like, I haven’t used this in a while. It’s it’s like taking up space on the counter. Let me put this up. I couldn’t find it. That’s that song. That’s, I remember that for me. That was October. That was a point. Somewhere in October. Lara Taylor 9:40Yeah. I like that you have like a time in like timeframe. Well, I Josué Cardona 9:46remember it October when that’s like when I started. I was like, Oh, I need to I need to do something about this. That’s like when I went on a diet and started exercising and then like I’ve lost close to 50 pounds now after that, but like I had to gain 20 to a point where it’s like, felt like a bag of shit. You know? It’s like hit hit ATL. All Time Low. It’s a reference, Link Keller 10:10not Atlanta, Lara Taylor 10:11not Atlanta. Josué Cardona 10:12not Atlanta Yeah, yep. Yep. Yep. So that’s my favorite song. Lara Taylor 10:18I’m trying to think. So, Josué Cardona 10:22just tell us you don’t like it just just come out and just tell us you didn’t like any song. Lara Taylor 10:26Okay, so I didn’t Link Keller 10:27I figured we’d circle back around to that. Lara Taylor 10:34It’s not that I like I didn’t, I didn’t like it. There are moments where I was laughing. There were moments I’m not gonna say it wasn’t funny. It wasn’t relatable, definitely was funny and relatable, and a lot of but I just the whole time I was like, This is not my thing. Um, but the songs were fucking catchy. Um, I have had white woman’s Instagram stuck in my head. Even though that one actually had a moment that I was actually like, huh? I’m not okay with that. Um, but Josué Cardona 11:10which one? That’s the one I wanted. Lara Taylor 11:12Well, the part of the part of that song that I didn’t like, was when he was making fun of people, you know, white women posting about their mom dying on social media. Link Keller 11:21Okay, so Lara Taylor 11:22that was actually, really? So I didn’t bother me until Nina brought up she was like, Did you like that? And I was like, No, it didn’t feel good. I Link Keller 11:31can I just can I just point out a little fancy little detail that you might have missed during that part. Okay, so it during that part, white woman’s Instagram, that is what the song is about is talking about Instagram, the aspect ratio of the the frame is in the Instagrams squarish. Yep. When he is doing the talking about my mom and really missing you, it starts to get wider and it becomes real life because that’s how it he uses the framing throughout the film is whenever he’s doing full screen. That’s the behind the scenes stuff, even though it’s all performative. But as soon as she switches to, the more like, Oh, yeah, I’ve got a boyfriend, who I really like, Oh, I love my boys, when I get back into the performative aspect is like, look how great my life is. And so it’s like, this moment of realness, and it starts to open up, and then that shift right back into the performative social media aspect. I Lara Taylor 12:30okay, less angry Still, the whole thing is not quite my thing. But the song that I did enjoy the most. Josué Cardona 12:39wait wait since we’re here and I no no no I want to hear Lara Taylor 12:44he does. He doesn’t want to hear my excitement. He wants me to shit on it. Josué Cardona 12:48I just don’t, no, no. I just don’t want to come back cuz I just want I just want to know if it’s if it’s because you’re a white woman on Instagram. Lara Taylor 12:55I’m actually not on Instagram very often. Josué Cardona 12:59Because because there’s definitely I felt attacked multiple times during this special. It felt a little too real. And I think that’s one of the songs I was just curious if that was Lara Taylor 13:09it might be umm Josué Cardona 13:11maybe not you personally, but maybe you’re like, Oh, this is making fun of like every person in my family and half my friends. Lara Taylor 13:17No, I I liked the rest of the song I liked I liked the rest of the song. I think it was the fact that I know so many people who are white or not white who use social media to be able to experience like express their grief over a loved one and build community over that. So but other than that, and I knew that was gonna come up, but yes, the rest of the song I was like, Oh, that’s funny, because I see I see my friends Instagrams and that I rarely post I post cat cat pictures once every like year Link Keller 13:57in my opinion that’s the only way applications should be used. Only Cat Lara Taylor 14:03cat pictures only cats. Um, but if we get to the song that I actually like, liked the most was FaceTime with my mom tonight. Only because we have tried to FaceTime with Nina’s mom so many times during this and she doesn’t do a lot of like the the finger over the camera, but like we’re like we’re trying to spend time with you. Let’s spend time with you and you just don’t get it. Get it. Yeah, Josué Cardona 14:31I tell. I tell my boys I need some space. Yeah, on my face. With my mom’s shoulder iPhone no further than six inches from her face. Yeah, we’ll FaceTime with my mom tonight. The whole thing is like are we all facetiming with the same people like it just does just everybody FaceTime the same way? When she says when he says she’ll tell me about the season six finale of the blacklist. That’s my mom. i had that conversation. Lara Taylor 14:58That’s great. Josué Cardona 14:59I think That, that that destroyed me. It was it was so funny. So funny. Yeah. And he’s like, and when you see him He’s so it’s like it’s it’s a, it’s it seems like almost torture for him, right? It’s like he’s like, oh, like I’m going through this like you can see, like the pain and almost the disbelief in his in his face as he’s like dealing with going through this facetiming with the mom. So it’s That’s good. That’s good. Link Keller 15:39Yeah, sort of showcasing, like the need for family interaction that we were all missing out but also the incredible frustration of having to completely change the way you communicate with your family. Because you can’t you can’t do it in person anymore. Josué Cardona 15:57But the comedy of it too, right. It’s Lara Taylor 15:58right Link Keller 16:01mom. Oh my god. move your thumb! Lara Taylor 16:04Move Your thumb! Yeah. Josué Cardona 16:04just use your phone. It’s cool. Like, like back in the old days. You don’t we don’t need Yeah. That was Link Keller 16:17my housemate. Sioni, also really related to that and she told me after that song ended, she’s like, Oh, my God, I I was on like, during the pandemic, I was on a video call with my dad. And twice he put the phone up to his head, forgot he was on video. twice in the same call. Lara Taylor 16:37We went to, we went to we went to temple services several times during the pandemic and like, seeing these older Jewish ladies with the phone and we would see just see their nose, because it would just be like, held up under their face. You see their nose because they’d be on their iPhones on zoom. Josué Cardona 17:02Yeah, yeah. Lara Taylor 17:05It was your teenagers were like, Josué Cardona 17:07what was your favorite? Link? Link Keller 17:09Mmm Hmm, I think probably my favorite is the funny feeling song. Is it? Yep, that feeling is probably my favorite. But I also I really love Welcome to the internet. Both because it’s a very funny song. And I feel like it is basically media psych a song. But I also really like it because the like tempo pacing of the song has like very Jewish vibes. I don’t know, I just I really um. I really like it. It’s fun. It’s fun to dance. welcome to the Internet! Josué Cardona 17:58When in that funny feeling when he when he says stunning 8k resolution meditation app. That was another one where like, I almost spit out what I was drinking. In honor of the revolutio…

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The Mitchells vs. the Machines May 16, 2021

Show notes

#299: Link and Josué chat about The Mitchells vs. the Machines, what counts as a dysfunctional family, and how the movie talks about social media. Transcript Josué Cardona 0:07Welcome to gt radio on the Geek Therapy network. Here at Geek Therapy. We believe that the best way to understand each other and ourselves is through the media we care about, my name is Josué Cardona. And I’m joined by Link Keller. Link Keller 0:20What’s up gamers? Josué Cardona 0:23And only Link Keller? Lara is on vacation from the show. What are we talking about today? Link Keller 0:29We are talking about the Mitchell’s versus the machines. Josué Cardona 0:34I’m so happy we’re talking about this movie Link Keller 0:37new animated movie, on Netflix, and it is very fun. And I watched it earlier this week, and I wanted to talk about it with you. Josué Cardona 0:49There’s so much to talk about. Regarding this movie, I loved it. I loved it so much. It’s so good. Oh, yeah. What do you what do you want to start? General reactions? notes? I hope you got notes. Link Keller 1:05I thought about taking notes. But then I wanted to actually just sit and enjoy the movie. So I made myself put my notebook away. I know so unlike me, huh? Yeah. The animation. Josué Cardona 1:18I don’t believe you. I Believe there are notes somewhere? Link Keller 1:22Well, in my smooth brain. There’s a few rattling around in there. Josué Cardona 1:28Yep. Link Keller 1:29Yeah, so it was animated by Sony. Interactive animation, Sony animation Josué Cardona 1:37sony playstation Link Keller 1:39The same the same people who did or the same group who did spider-man into the spider-verse, which is one of the most beautifully animated movies I’ve ever seen, and definitely my favorite superhero movie of all time. I don’t know that I loved the Mitchell’s versus the machines more than into the spider-verse. Like that’s maybe unattainable. But I did really enjoy it. And you could absolutely see some of the really cool design elements they included in spider-verse were carried over into this new piece of animation is really fun. I love when they add the extra little squiggly lines on top. It’s very fun. Josué Cardona 2:22Yeah, I think I think I don’t think they’re different animations, right? Like, I think it’s the same. They use all of the same tricks. Again, I’m sure there’s something different. But there’s something even the one of the coolest things about the spider about into the spider-verse was that the different the people from the different dimensions were illustrated at different frames per second. Link Keller 2:45mmhmm. Yeah, they were animated. Not exactly how they would have been animated in the time that they’re referencing but using similar techniques to pull that that like realness of like Yeah, no, this is like Noir. comic book. And this is Looney Tunes style, comic style. Yeah, it’s really fun. Josué Cardona 3:08And so here I think they did it with the with the drawings on top, rather with all the sketches and stuff. Those seem to absolutely look like they were drawings come to life versus the other animation. So I think they did a nice job, too. Yeah, what’s so cool Link Keller 3:21they did they did they also had some some parts were 2d animated. Some parts were 3d animated. Some parts were more like stop motion style. They did. They included some like live action pieces that were included in there, which adds this like extra cool collage effect, which really fit the sort of vibe that they were going for. Some really, really cool stuff. This is a movie I’m going to definitely watch again, if only so that I can spot more cool animation things. Josué Cardona 3:58It was just so much fun. It was so good. So good. Yeah, yeah. I think I had seen a tik tok about it. And I sent it to all my friends. And then it wasn’t until you told me this is what we’re talking about. So you have to watch it. So thank you, because otherwise I would have I don’t think I would have watched it yet. It’s good Link Keller 4:20I okay, so I was on Twitter and I don’t remember who posted it. I don’t remember even like what they said I just remember that somebody posted an opinion about the mitchell’s versus the machines. And I was like, Huh, and then one of my friends posted in our group discord and was like, watch it now. And they are one of my animation. Animation snob friends, who have very specific tastes when it comes to animation. And that was that was a sell point for me, I was like okay, I’ll check it out. Josué Cardona 4:59What was the opinion Yeah, on Twitter that you saw, Link Keller 5:01I don’t remember. I think it was like somebody was saying it was nice but. and like, they elaborated on that, but I don’t I do like my brain did not save that information. Josué Cardona 5:12Now there was there was yeah uh where do we start? Link Keller 5:16I have some critiques but I will save them for later. I think that there are more joyful awesomeness to be considered before we get to the more critical stuff. Josué Cardona 5:28Yeah, my favorite thing about it was the there was, how spoilery can we be? basically there’s a lot of like, one of the themes, obviously, is that this this main character, Katie, she loves animation. So like, the the movie, in many ways is like, we’re seeing things from her perspective, in a way. So so the, the sketches, the the 2d animation, and all these things. That’s her style, like we’re seeing it the way we’re seeing the world the way she does. And she’s got the this relationship with her father, that is, you know, like, the father just doesn’t get her. Right. There’s those moments. I don’t. He doesn’t understand me. You never, you never like Link Keller 6:13parents just don’t understand Josué Cardona 6:15the don’t understand. And I mean, that’s the thing that we talk about so much. It’s this, this is I don’t think that there’s a worse thing to do to someone who cares about you or you care about who then like, just completely disregard or, you know, take a dump on the things that they like, or that they enjoy, like the things that are meaningful to them. Right and this is so meaningful to her and she in her father is just like uhhhh Link Keller 6:46her dad, her dad. Absolutely. Yucks her yum. And it’s something that we talk about on this show regularly is like don’t don’t yuck people’s yum it doesn’t have to be your yum, but don’t yuck it because you never know when that yuck is gonna stab you deep into your soul and make you want to abandon your whole family because it hurts so bad. Josué Cardona 7:07Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Guess what, parents? Nobody can dig that knife deeper. No one can yuck harder than you. Oh, it hurts. Yeah. And then. And then there’s like, the opposite versions of that, right? Where she finally like, Oh, she’s like, Oh, I found my people. And there are people who appreciate what I do. And, and the brother right with their brothers using the metaphor of like, a, like dinosaurs are his thing. Right? That’s like his special interest, just like is this his favorite thing in the world? He like, you know, like, do you think that if two Raptors like, you know, like, one the Raptor leaves the pack? Like, do you think the other actor would be okay? Link Keller 7:48you know, Raptors, they hunt in pairs, and what is gonna happen when one of the Raptors goes away, and there’s only one Raptor left behind. I was just like, ahh, I love you. Josué Cardona 8:01And Katie doesn’t miss a beat. She’s she knows exactly what’s happening. She knows exactly what he’s talking about. And, and that’s like, that’s the way they communicate, right? In a way. And like, that’s the theme throughout the show. And later on, we see it, like one of the movies that she made when the videos, it’s like, there’s no like it’s a, it’s a, it’s an analogy. It’s not even a metaphor, it’s an analogy. Just replace the names, and the people in the frame. The story is there. And you know, and it’s such a meaningful way for, like, that’s her language. That’s the way that she communicates things, and to see that kind of play out and be successful, are so satisfying. Because I’m always looking for media for like meta media, right, that explains what we’re, what we’re trying to what we’re always talking about here on the show. But that shows it like in media itself, like happening, I love that extra layer of it. It’s apparently satisfying, very, very satisfying. happens a lot. And it’s so good to good. Link Keller 9:06Yeah, I mean, Katie gives such a good example of like, dinosaurs aren’t her obsession, but she understands that that’s what her brother Aaron is really, really, really, really into. And so she supports him in that they have a little Raptor fist bump thing, which is very cute. And it’s such a loving way to support, you know, somebody else’s interests. But then, you know, it’s not like he’s expecting her to completely overextend in that way is like, he understands that she has her own things. And that’s, you know, making YouTube films basically. And so he helps with that. And so it’s like, a really cool way that they support each other. And their, their personal interests and understanding like, oh, that like you really, really love this thing. And not only is that cool to witness, but it’s cool to participate with you in. Josué Cardona 9:55Yeah, yeah. Yep. So I’m adding into my list of like Geek Therapy examples, meta examples I want to say like more details of it just because because it’s so good and satisfying in the movie, but just watch it like if you know any of this sounds good. Go, go watch, watch. watch. It’s on Netflix. Actually, I re-upped my subscription to Netflix just to watch the movie. Link Keller 10:23ya hear that Netflix, Josué Cardona 10:24you know, Link Keller 10:25you’re welcome. Josué Cardona 10:26honestly that’s probably the most valuable metric that the Netflix Yeah, Link Keller 10:32oh, for sure. Josué Cardona 10:32That you saw immediately here. That’s unfortunately, probably because of that we’re gonna get to unnecessary sequels or something like that. Yeah. Yeah. Hopefully they just that Sony studios do more movies. Yeah. Link Keller 10:49just let them do more stuff. Josué Cardona 10:50Yeah. Link Keller 10:53Beautiful. So beautiful. Josué Cardona 10:54I have other favorite things in the movie. But what, what else is on your on your on your on your list? Link Keller 11:01Well, if we’re trying not to be spoilery, some of my favorite parts are definitely Josué Cardona 11:10Forget it. Let’s just let it spoil it Link Keller 11:14We’re spoiling. Okay. Okay. When when? Should we briefly describe the plot of this movie? Josué Cardona 11:22I mean, you know, it’s probably a good idea. Okay. Link Keller 11:28Katie Mitchell, our most main character of the Mitchell family who characters. Katie, who is voiced by Abbi Jacobson, is going off to college to be a film major. She has historically felt misunderstood by her parents, especially maybe also her brother, but mostly her parents. Especially her dad, who does not make an effort in the same way that her mom does. Her mom misses the mark, but is still trying her dad isn’t really trying. And so she’s about to leave. There’s this family conflict. And dad as voiced by Danny McBride, who did a great job. He decided that I got to fix the family. And the way to fix the family is to trap the family in a car for a cross country trip. That’s great and fun. And it is not a huge messed up thing that I canceled your plane ticket without consulting you. That’s not weird. that’s not fucked up at all. Josué Cardona 12:43and you had plans for tonight, but like it’s, okay you know? Link Keller 12:47Yeah. And so yeah, so they go on this road trip. Katie is not into it. But it’s talked into at least trying from her mom. And mostly because her brother is like, but it would be nice to spend some more time with you before you leave. which like that kid nailed it. Like Yeah, get her, get her. And so while they are on this family road trip, the robot apocalypse happens. Josué Cardona 13:22Mark, the CEO of this tech company, Link Keller 13:26Mark Bowman, the CEO of not Apple pal pal P A L. Who is voiced by Eric Andre. I’m a big fan. It was very weird. took me a while to place his voice. But he upgrades his tech and is rude to his pal phone. Who is like voiced by Olivia Coleman. And is one of the highlights of the movie is her voice acting as like an angry Siri basically yelling out of a phone. He hurts Siri. Josué Cardona 14:08Yeah, he was not rude. He was he was just like, cruel. Link Keller 14:14Yeah, no, that was not very nice. But yeah, so she, she takes over control of all the robots and decides that the best way to deal with people is to isolate them in little cubes, hexagon cubes, and I guess shoot them off into space? And then the family is basically the Mitchells are the only family that’s really left out there. They haven’t been captured yet. And so they have to save the planet from the apocalypse. And it’s fun because they’re, you know, they’re leaning on the dysfunctional family tropes. And so it’s like dysfunctional family saves world. Which is classic. Josué Cardona 14:55Well, that’s it that’s my that’s my, the dysfunctional family part is what I like. The most because they never used like that I don’t think they ever use that word or anything or any way to do it right they’re like oh we’re not normal right? other families are and yes I kept thinking about Tik tok that you sent me the other day where this person was saying that like I don’t remember this is I’m paraphrasing but I was like we’re not you’re not ugly you’re normal shaped right and and just like I loved that video so much because it was this idea like what is what is normal nature shapes you’re nature shaped Link Keller 15:33nature shaped! we don’t we don’t say wow, this octopus is like got too many legs and it’s too squishy is like no that’s the shape octopuses are supposed to be and so you are that you are nature shaped You are the shape you are meant to be Josué Cardona 15:49i love that video so much I kept thinking about that idea. Throughout all of this, right? Because that’s it. It’s like oh, we’re not a normal family. There’s no such thing. Um, but but and and they have that. The john legend, Chrissy Teigen family, which is Link Keller 16:12pretty pretty on the nose. is pretty funny. Josué Cardona 16:15I didn’t know it was I didn’t realize it was them until I saw critics, oh, oh, Link Keller 16:23once once. John Legend spoke. Yeah, both of them clicked into place for me. But it was definitely At first I was like, Oh, yeah, they play the perfect next door neighbors, the Posey’s. And they have they had the Instagram perfect life. And that’s something that the mom strives afters Josué Cardona 16:43you used the word dysfunctional before, right. And like, in many ways, like they demonstrated that they were functional in a way, right, like they had a plan they get executed, they could get from point A to point B. Link Keller 16:56I think the major dysfunction in the family is along the lines of emotional intelligence, rather than being able to cohesively work as a family. It’s, it’s the relationship between the dysfunction is in the relationship between dad and everybody else, basically and him in not wanting to shift. Josué Cardona 17:18I like this idea of, like, just the words that we use to describe these things. Right? Because, like you said, you know, dysfunctional, like, what’s a functional family? Right? Like, then what does that mean? If you’re functioning what, what isn’t functioning, what functions are functioning? And then, but they kept saying, like, we’re not normal, but like, what is a normal family? it I don’t think it’s the posies, right, like, what is what is normal? Exactly. And they never, I like the way that they, they play with that right there. Like, I don’t know, like, we’re just like, we’re, we’re, we’re us, like, in like, there’s that…

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Little Breaks in Littlewood May 09, 2021

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#298: Lara tells Link and Josué about Littlewood, a soothing game similar to Stardew Valley and Animal Crossing, and how the mechanics of these kinds of games help us deal with stress. Josué gushes about Genshin Impact and Link suggests Pokémon Snap as a fun and soothing time. Transcript Josué Cardona 0:06Welcome gt radio on the Geek Therapy network here at Geek Therapy, we believe that the best way to understand each other and ourselves is through the media we care about, my name is Josué Cardona. And I’m joined by Lara Taylor. Lara Taylor 0:15Hey, Josué Cardona 0:16and Link Keller. Link Keller 0:17Hey, Josué Cardona 0:18today we’re talking about little town? Lara Taylor 0:21littlewood! Josué Cardona 0:22littlewood, littlewood. Lara Taylor 0:24It’s a little town called littlewood, Josué Cardona 0:27a little town called littlewood. And we’re in Lara has been taking Lara has been taking little breaks in littlewood. Link Keller 0:34And yes, longer breaks in littlewood Josué Cardona 0:39Okay, so what this game looks, I don’t know. Looks looks uh, looks fantastic to me. But Link Keller 0:48tell us a little about littlewood. Lara Taylor 0:51Which is so funny. Because every time I tell people about littlewood I say the name, they’re like littlewood, little wood heehee Link Keller 0:59hee hee hee Lara Taylor 1:03That’s because I surround myself with people who have the sense of humor of a 13 year old but it’s okay. It’s okay. Yeah, yeah, this game is more sophisticated than that. It’s wonderful and beautiful. It’s a little 8bit like, town builder game. A client of mine actually recommended it to me and I’m so appreciative. It is the most like, okay, I would compare it to Stardew Valley, which we’ve talked about how it is sometimes an anxiety provoking game Stardew Valley, but the cool thing about littlewood is the reason I play it so much, is there’s no countdown clock, there’s no timer, like I can just let it be in play. And here’s Josué playing the game. I wish there was a multiplayer option. Ooh, you placed your market in a very interesting place Josué Cardona 2:00i played for about 45 minutes, and Lara Taylor 2:02this is gonna be so distracting to me. Josué Cardona 2:04Yeah, no, I just, you know, if you’re if you’re watching this live, you can see what the game looks like. And yeah, it’s it’s very distracting. I told you not to play. Lara Taylor 2:14Very cute little eight bit game. Um, it is a the premise is you were the hero of the big story, like you defeated the dark wizard, you and your friends. And you wake up one day, and you’re in littlewood, and you don’t, Josué Cardona 2:33littlewood, Lara Taylor 2:34littlewood littlewood, like Hollywood littlewood. Josué Cardona 2:37Yeah, Lara Taylor 2:38um, you don’t remember any of it, you don’t remember your friends, you don’t remember beating the dark wizard. And over time, you’re learning about your adventures with your friends and building connections and building a community. And you’re building the town literally build your house, you build your friend’s house, you’re collecting resources to do that. But you can romance all the characters, including a duck. It’s really cute. Um, and you get to cook food. And it’s just it’s so relaxing. And I think what gets me is I loved the concept of Stardew Valley. But I would get so anxious when it got close to the end of the day, I have to do all these things by the end of the day. And this game, it’s a stamina bar. So you can only do so much by the end of the day. But it’s not counting it down, like and you go to bed and the next the next days there. It doesn’t feel as stressful to me. I have spent so much time playing this game in the last few weeks. Josué Cardona 3:48That’s a good point, everything you do fills up the bar. So you can just kind of hang out and talk to people forever. Without not progress time forward. But when you do things so you know you have a limited number of tasks to do Lara Taylor 4:02and building things doesn’t count against your bar. You can do as much like modification and landscaping and all of that so that piece doesn’t get doesn’t cut you out of extra time you get to do it’s mostly the chopping wood. Collecting stone, fishing, cooking, catching bugs, much like Animal Crossing. Josué Cardona 4:24It sounds a lot like Animal Crossing, which was the game where you needed this time last year and it came in right just the right time. It sounds Lara Taylor 4:33like this is the game that I mean right now. Because Animal Crossing still feels like a chore after playing it for so long. This game it’s like Animal Crossing but it has story right like there’s you wake up some mornings and Josué Cardona 4:49wait wait there’s a story in Animal Crossing Lara Taylor 4:52you build your own story and but I’m talking like Josué Cardona 4:55you gotta get K.K. to come over. Lara Taylor 4:56Once you’re done once K.K. is there, the story is done this game, you get bits each day. Exactly. Roll credits, and it’s done. Yeah, I beat that game over a year ago. Josué Cardona 5:13I was rereading reality is broken recently. And you know, I think I think Jane explains so well, the, the gamer enjoyment cycle where you’re like, Oh, it’s like shiny new learning new things, flow mastery. And then you can only do that for so long. And then what you do is you just get off of that one. And then you start the whole cycle again with another one, right? So for some there, there have been many times where I’ve thought, Oh, I really want that Animal Crossing experience. But I can’t get it from Animal Crossing anymore. Does like, the only in some games, I would have just deleted my island and started over for that feeling. But I haven’t felt like doing that. Because it’s been too much of an investment to get the things that I have. And I don’t want to do that. So I yeah, so I needed something else. I just, I just got littlewood today. And I’m Lara Taylor 6:15are you are you invested? Josué Cardona 6:18well it was all the things you said, right. It’s like it’s all the same. It’s very similar elements. It’s even, it’s a different art style. It’s different than Stardew Valley. It does many of the similar things, the things that I already like, but it does things in a slightly different way. A lot of the objectives are similar. Um, but so far, I like to I like the system i like i like that. And it’s just like it feels it has that aesthetic. And that I don’t like energy level, right? That is just very, Lara Taylor 6:49it’s a mellow energy level, and the music is so soothing. And I can just leave it on and walk around and then come back and be like, Oh, yeah, I was trying to pick my carrots out of the garden today or whatever. Josué Cardona 7:04Yeah, yeah. I yeah, I’m glad I probably won’t play it now. Because I there’s another game that I’ve been playing a lot. And this I didn’t expect, I’ve been playing genshin impact a lot for the past few months. And that game basically just had an update that added animal crossing into it. So I’ve built an island and landscaping and I’m like, I have pets now. And I’m building furniture and I’m cutting you know, I’m getting material and cutting down trees and building fabric and doing all these same things that for some reason, just it’s a low cognitive load, not difficult. It’s just that it feels good. Like I’ve built a new thing and I can move it and I can all those small things and but it’s pretty shallow now like it’s pretty limited. So I think I think between that and and littlewood I can definitely, if I need it. I don’t feel like I needed as much now as I needed Animal Crossing last year. But at all. It’s It’s good. Yeah. Lara Taylor 8:06Yeah. Yeah. It’s so peaceful. And I like the idea of the story. Like, your character doesn’t remember anything. And yeah, your friends still love you and wants you to remember and don’t make you feel bad for not remembering and like, it’s just like, Oh, I remember how we used to do this thing together. We used to we remember that time we went across the bridge, and the bridge fell down or something and like, it’s just so sweet. They just, they just tried to help you remember, I don’t know where that story is going yet. I’m on day 46? Josué Cardona 8:43I’m on day two, and it’s already noticeably optimistic and cheerful in a way that even Animal Crossing as cute as it is like there’s some jerks and Animal Crossing, right? Like some people, right? Like there’s you got a little bit of everything there. And this one here. You’re right. And there’s I don’t know, how I’m curious how you feel or how you would describe that feeling of the moment you start? is it’s it’s like the it’s like the epilogue to so many other games that you’ve played. Lara Taylor 9:16Right, right. It’s like, it’s your time to relax. You put down the sword and just like, go chop down some trees. Josué Cardona 9:25I was like, that’s like she was sleeping for three days. Why? I don’t even remember that. You won. You beat the game. You You defeated the evil wizard. Right. And that was a hell of a battle. This town is all messed up. We should probably fix it. I don’t even know what it’s called. What do you want to call it? I’m like, What is happening? What? I love that as a as a basis for for for a game. Lara Taylor 9:49Yeah. And then you get to build a town square with a statue dedicated to you in the town square. It’s Josué Cardona 9:55Oh, yeah. i havent gotten that far Lara Taylor 9:56you haven’t done that part. Link Keller 9:57that that feels more like fable. Josué Cardona 10:00Yeah, I hope I don’t have to kill a dog at the end or choose nothing. Lara Taylor 10:04I hope that I hope not. I don’t think they would do that. Link Keller 10:07But tell your duck wife, Lara Taylor 10:08my duck wife, my duck wife, there are so many. It’s, it’s interesting because you can you can compliment and flirt with all you build these relationships with anyone you want in the town. I’m trying not to do that with everybody. But I’m like, okay, you start with you and your two best friends Willow and Dalton. So you get to pick and you don’t even have to pick you can pick neither. You can have both of them. You can. You can romance everybody. It’s wonderful. But I think it’s great that there’s that choice and that option to do whatever. There’s the duck person, there’s an orc person. There’s an old man that you can romance as well, which is really cute. And he likes to go fishing with you. Because he used to teach you how to fish. Okay. Yeah, um, you got a hot air balloon that you can fly to all kinds of places. Someone in one of the main the port city is trying to get me to donate my money to help restore the port city. I’m like, No, I gotta restore Littlewood. But it’s, um, there’s so much going on. But not enough that I get overwhelmed. Because we’ve talked in past episodes how I get overwhelmed when there’s too much going on in a game. Josué Cardona 11:36Yeah. Lara Taylor 11:37But there’s, there’s a lot to choose from, but not too much. And I don’t think I’m going to get bored with the game in the way that I think I did. Like, at one point Animal Crossing got to just every day I get up, I pick all the weeds, I dig up the fossils. Josué Cardona 11:57But that’s every day, right? Like, there was a time when I was like, that was fulfilling and exactly what Lara Taylor 12:03a certain point it was like, that feels like work. That’s happened, right? There was also Link Keller 12:07the difference in Animal Crossing being on real time. And so I think that adds a whole different experience to it, than in Stardew Valley or littlewood. Lara Taylor 12:22Right right Josué Cardona 12:23thats true Link Keller 12:23its like, there’s a difference of doing the same thing every day, seven days for a week, then I did the same thing. Seven days in one play sitting. And all seven days passed. And now I’m on the eighth day. Lara Taylor 12:37Yeah, yeah. I like the I like the setting in littlewood where like, instead of there’s like the season, each season has, like 30 days or something like that. And they just have four simple seasons. And there’s a certain amount of cool, fun events in each one. Link Keller 13:01You, you were talking about? How in littlewood, you were on day 42. And you don’t know for sure where this story is going. Lara Taylor 13:17Maybe that’s where we’re at. But I’m really excited to see where the story is going. I like the idea of like the retired hero. I like spins on the traditional story right. Yeah. That’s pretty cool. Link Keller 13:33Yeah, instead of the traditional hero’s journey, that video games love to go for. They’re like, hey, what if what if our video game is it’s just the very end It really does feel like It’s an epilogue to another game. Josué Cardona 13:48Yeah, I often mentioned that I don’t. I have strong feelings about the hero’s journey. It’s not really the hero’s journey itself. I love Joseph Campbell. That’s not the issue. My issue is Lara Taylor 14:00there are other storytelling. Josué Cardona 14:02There’s other stories and I hate it when people seem to try to fit life narratives and any story and try to put it into that story into the to the hero’s journey cycle. Lara Taylor 14:17If it fits, it fits if it doesn’t, don’t force it. Link Keller 14:20Well Yeah, it ends up being it is the go to example for describing narrative and how narrative works. And that ends up being a lot of people’s only interaction with that that concept and learning about narrative and so it’s similar similar to the the stages of grief, which were misrepresented in what they were supposed to be doing. But it’s so easy to pass along that that bit of information and it feels so apt. People are just like that’s it. We did it. That’s enough. That’s enough for me. I got it. but There’s, there’s more. Josué Cardona 15:02I get it. Joseph Campbell had that realization, he was like, Whoa, a lot of stories follow the same. Same same exact thing but not all of them. Until you don’t have to try to fit yours into to that does that does a TED video about a father talking about how much he hates the hero’s journey, because of how his daughter couldn’t relate to the typical stories that are told through the hero’s narrative. It is pretty good. He could say these things Better than he can express my feelings more than I can. But yeah, I do you love the idea that it’s not just up, like, there is actually a narrative reason for doing this for doing all these things. Everything is set up. And it also just, you know, takes all these tropes and just changes them. And I love the setup of that. I really like that a lot. I love the memory part. I mean, we talked we had that episode about memory, but the fact that your character doesn’t remember things, and you’re still Lara Taylor 16:03and you don’t know why. Like it could be just like it could be got hit on the head could be a magic thing could be trauma. i dunno. Josué Cardona 16:11who knows. it gets real dark later Lara Taylor 16:14Maybe it does, maybe it does. I don’t know. One of the things I think I really like about it is, as I as I was trying to get to is like I’ve been going through a lot of stress the last few weeks, it’s been a stressful few weeks. And this game has been a good escape. But it’s almost like I need an epilogue like I need the peaceful epilogue to like, relax and chop down trees. And like, this is a different kind of like Animal Crossing was the game I needed last year because I needed to get outside because I couldn’t go outside. Now it’s more acceptable to go outside and be around people just a little bit. But now I need the relaxing epilogue just like my stress is done. Let me go escape for a little bit in this game, and romance, some characters and go fishing and try to build some houses and decorate my friend’s houses the way they want to be decorated and build a coffee house and build a tavern and cook. It’s so good. Josué Cardona 17:28Is there a goal? Li…

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Wonder Egg Priority and Monstrous Trauma May 02, 2021

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#297: Josué, Lara, and Link discuss how we connect with different stories through different media, and how animation or fantastical elements can provide the psychological space needed to engage with difficult topics like racism or domestic abuse. Josué reveals how anime was ruined for his sister. Transcript Josué Cardona 0:07Welcome to gt radio on the Geek Therapy network. Here at Geek Therapy. We believe that the best way to understand each other and ourselves is through the media we care about, my name is Josué Cardona. And I’m joined by Link Keller. Link Keller 0:17Hello, Josué Cardona 0:18and Lara Taylor. Lara Taylor 0:19Hey. Josué Cardona 0:20Hello. Welcome. Welcome. Welcome. Today, I have a story for you Something happened at work. Here’s what I wanna talk about. colleague, coworker asked me if I watched the TV show them on Amazon Prime. Have either of you watched it? Lara Taylor 0:41Nope. Link Keller 0:42what is it about? Lara Taylor 0:42i want to though? Josué Cardona 0:45them? My response was absolutely not. I’m done watching movies. Where or shows where racism is the monster. I don’t want to I don’t want to. I’m good. Get out was an interesting experience. I enjoyed the movie very much. I thought it was great. And and now, but now it’s like a trend. Now there’s a whole genre of stuff like Lara Taylor 1:11isn’t them, like related to the movie us? Josué Cardona 1:15I don’t think it’s at all related. It’s uh, yeah, it’s not related at all. Um, that you know, doing some research on this this part of it in particular, like other people feel seems to feel the same way. Like, here’s a article that came up like black trauma porn, them and the danger of Jordan Peele imitators. And yeah, I mean, even the the trailer for it was super creepy. It it’s just like, a black family moved into a white neighborhood. And then, you know, like, the white families like staring at them from across the street, that and that alone is terrifying. And I was like, nope, no, I don’t I don’t want to see this. But then as I thought about it later, I just the whole conversation we could have about all that stuff. But I thought about it. I was like, I don’t I don’t want to see that. But then I remembered watchmen, and and in watchmen, like racism is the monster there too but. It’s like a superhero show. It was like it was packaged in in a way that I, I’m, I’m okay with that, that those different thinking, if we can, Superman punches racism in the face, it’s different, then I prefer that. And there’s different. It just it just got me thinking of the different ways that we talk about this all the time, we talk about how sometimes you you, you don’t have the words to describe the way you feel. But you can see it in media. And it’s actually helpful, right? And it’s helpful. There’s so many different ways. Okay, that stories there, it is way more, I can actually visit or even discuss or even think about this topic or this traumatic thing, whether it’s it’s something that happened to me or to someone else or something that is just hard to talk about, or, or even think about, and then you see it in different media. It’s like, oh, okay, no, like, I can I can handle it here. It’s like, Oh, no, it’s like, it’s all metaphor, and it’s a children’s show. So okay, I can I can definitely deal with that. And I’ve been exploring, in music, this type of thing, to ready to take. Although in the music one, in the music conversations I’ve been having. I thought, maybe Is it possible that there’s a way where it’s actually worse? Which I, which I think is possible, and maybe even the case in some of this? I get I don’t even know what the what the genre. I saw something the other day, but like a Jordan Peele imitators sounds like a good way to refer to, to this genre. And yeah, it’s just, it’s just, I was surprised to to bring this up, granted, like have that immediate response of like, No, no, I don’t want to see that at all. But like, in other in other contexts, I would absolutely. revisit the same themes. And I see that all the time. If I think about it, I’m curious if what you think about those examples in particular, but if there are any examples you can think of like, I mean, I’m very curious to hear what you have to say, Link not only because this, these are positioned as racism and horror, right, in particular. And and I mean, it’s not weird, right? To talk about what the horror aspect to what it is that it’s representing, it’s representing something else, but it doesn’t doesn’t matter how. On the nose, the metaphor is, right. It’s usually not like exactly that. Right. It’s like the monster is literally the, you know, like this white family across the street. Yeah, I haven’t seen the show, so I’m not sure If there’s more stuff to it out there, um, Lara Taylor 5:03it’s interesting I looked up the them is done by. I think the showrunner is Lena Waithe. Mm hmm. Yeah. I actually like a lot. Josué Cardona 5:15Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I’ve read some interesting things. I’m a fan too Yeah, I’m a fan of, Lena Waithe. And what was that was a service that disappeared. Do you remember the one that was like? QB Quibi one? Lara Taylor 5:29Quibi. Josué Cardona 5:31Yeah. Lara Taylor 5:32Quibi. Josué Cardona 5:34No, no, she had a show. That was all about sneakers. That’s really good. I was like, a, like a love letter to sneakers. But yeah, then she made them. Again, lots of interesting thoughts on that, but, but I’m so I’m curious what you think. And also think you explore a lot of depth in different types of media. And I think that’s also one of those things where I sure, like, I’ll go through seven different, you know, stories about death in in what remains of Edith Finch. But in other media, I’m like, Oh, no, like these characters can i can’t i don’t want to, I don’t want any part of it. Or like, oh, that song is too sad or sad, or like, it just depends on how it’s packaged. And, Link Keller 6:19yeah, Josué Cardona 6:19and I mean, we’ve talked about death in particular, in the past where I, I feel like there’s been a there’s a practice of the sense of loss. It’s not the same, right? We’re not saying it’s the same as losing someone close to you. But to get to feel the loss is is in a way that you’re like, oh, oh, I just felt the loss. I wasn’t expecting that. But But it happened in a way in a package that was in a way that I can then reflect on and experience in a particular way. That’s not too bad. No. thoughts, Link? Link Keller 6:52Yeah. Yes. I think that that is one of the great. I apologize. If you can hear screaming in the background, I closed the window, but I can still hear it. So Josué Cardona 7:05yeah, I’m, sometimes I record and that happens too. And Link Keller 7:10no, like, just started up as I started talking, so I’m like, Josué Cardona 7:14Did you hear what did you hear my question? Link Keller 7:16I did? Yeah. Okay. Sorta, I think I parsed it. One of the things I really love about horror, as genre is that it is a way to engage with darker, more upsetting themes and ideas and events that have happened or made up ones that are metaphorical, for real things. I think that that is one of horrors great skills is that it gives us space to engage with these kinds of things that are uncomfortable with intention, you know, you you go in knowing that it’s gonna be uncomfortable and scary. And that’s, you know, you signed up to watch it, you agreed to do that. So I think that there’s something definitely beneficial in being able to have those kinds of outlets. It does depend on the package like you said, it does really matter. You know, what medium it’s in the experiences that what remains of Edith Finch provides I think the difference in watching it versus playing it, I think that there is a difference there even though it is not a supremely interactive game with you know, twitch reflexes or anything like that it’s very slow paced, and does not require you to have very much skill beyond figuring out how to move and look at the same time, which granted is tough for some people. But that’s basically all that the game asks of you. mechanic wise, but the feedback of you moving the game through these stories and you choosing when to you know, skip past a piece of text versus sit in and really mull on it, I think adds a whole extra layer of getting to engage with that kind of stuff that wouldn’t exist in just, you know, reading about it or just watching, you know, the what remains of Edith Finch TV show, I don’t think would have the same kind of impact Josué Cardona 9:26as as you explore the different types of games. I’m curious, have you ever come across one you’re like, this is like the i can’t i don’t i don’t want to? Link Keller 9:36Um, yes, I don’t know that I can think of a specific one off the top of my head. Oh, I watched somebody playing Medium recently and it had some real questionable stuff that I was like, I thought it was gonna be a game I’d be really into but it ended up missing a lot of the marks of what I want from a horror game of that style. Um, you know, it’s very common, especially in horror games to use insanity and mental illness as shorthand for bad evil scary, and I don’t, I don’t like that and it’s overplayed and boring at a certain point. So it’s not necessarily like that I don’t want to engage with that idea. So much as it’s been done already, and I didn’t care for how you guys have pulled it off so far. So I’m actually I’m gonna skip on it. Maybe another couple of years. Maybe Maybe somebody can figure it out. But so far, it’s not been great. Josué Cardona 10:45Yeah, Gian, in the comments says This War of Mine felt the same way. Like exploring the themes in that game. Link Keller 10:52Yeah, I only I only played like, the very, very beginning of that game. But yeah, I thought that was very cool. That’s that’s another thing is games. Like, what kind of art style you use can be very effective in changing how uncomfortable a tone is like. Don’t Starve is this. Yeah, a cutesy survival horror game basically was literally like, find resources. And you know, don’t get eaten by monsters and don’t starve. But it’s done in this sort of Edward gorey, -esque Tim Burton -y kind of art style and it makes it sort of cutesy and less less threatening, though. There are definitely still parts where I’m like, I am uncomfortable the monster is gonna get me! Josué Cardona 11:48survival games in general. It’s weird. You’re making a game out of surviving. And I get it like okay, like a Resident Evil game. like you’d lack resources and like, you can’t kill the monster. But in some games, you got to eat like, you gotta that’s that’s a starving is not like, oh, like food insecurity in my real life. And then you know, play get starve. Link Keller 12:19Get starved. Josué Cardona 12:20Don’t starve Yeah, Lara Taylor 12:22that’s the new game. Josué Cardona 12:24Live get starved and play don’t starve Sorry. Yeah, yeah. Link Keller 12:29Yeah, yeah, it is. It is interesting. What games do? Because you know, the point is always like, is this going to be an engaging mechanic is it going to be fun for people to play. And so a lot of times realism is ditched because it’s not fun. I’m thinking of like the, the Tomb Raider reboot did a big thing about like, Oh, yeah, bows and arrows like this is our sweet baby. Lara Croft on her first adventure out in the wild, she’s got to survive. And there’s literally there is one tutorial mission where you have to shoot a deer for God sorry, food food in and like fur to keep you warm in the snow. Of course, Lara doesn’t like actually change her outfit from the tank top, the dirty tank top she’s wearing. But that’s it, the game does not require you to actually survive in that way ever again. Because it would get really boring very quickly. In that game, there are other games where where that aspect is, is really well done. And it is really fun to try and figure out how to actually use your resources in such a way I think Don’t Starve fits in that I think that that one’s fun, but I don’t play a ton of those kinds of games because I get overwhelmed very quickly. Josué Cardona 14:01Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think there’s a lot of negative examples of like, like gian mentioned this war of mine I remember I was I came to change and like they had it they were presenting it at the festival it just depressing to look at it like I didn’t want it like I get what you want me to feel you know in the comments down said it’s like, hopelessness is like the game mechanic. It’s like Yeah, but no, I don’t I don’t necessarily want to experience that. Link Keller 14:31Did you play papers please? Josué Cardona 14:34Yeah, so so that’s that’s a great that’s an example Link Keller 14:37that’s that I feel like that’s an example where it definitely rides the edge of being enjoyable mechanic-wise but still like stabbing you right in the heart Josué Cardona 14:48yeah, yeah, it makes it makes you think about it even even though the country is fictional and everything right but it’s like yeah, I think papers please up perfect balance of, of like, we’re trying To say something loudly, clearly. And it doesn’t. Yeah, there’s like, there’s no, you don’t you don’t see what happens to the people after right? Like cuz I mean, then that’s even part of the conversation that you can have afterwards. You have them. That’s a good example. A good example. Lara, have you thought of any examples? Lara Taylor 15:23Not of games? Josué Cardona 15:25Yeah, it doesn’t have to be Yeah. Lara Taylor 15:30I don’t know, when you brought up the topic I was trying to think of, there are not too many subjects that I will stray away from. If it comes up in media. I was thinking, Link Keller 15:41I don’t know. I framed it that way. And I’m like, what, what do I avoid? Watching? I couldn’t really think of anything specific. Lara Taylor 15:50Like if something happened to check in, like, I am a very if you’re talking like fight flight or freeze, I freeze. Like I don’t, I don’t speak up. I don’t I don’t do I have to work on these things. But like, I think watching something violent happen in front of me or something racist, or transphobic, or whatever. I’m less likely to act in person and would have a really hard time processing it. But in media, it helps me think about it and try to practice like, oh, maybe I should do something like that or not do something like that, or whatever. I read Josué Cardona 16:33Oh, that’s the point. That’s the topic, right? Yeah. Lara Taylor 16:37Yeah, but but there are things that like, like, I don’t know, I used to watch a lot of law and order SVU. That whole show is about sexual assaults. I love that show. I in comics, I will go to reading graphic memoir, which usually has some bad thing has happened to somebody, or they’ve gone through this big change in their life. And I love those kinds of stories. I love the idea of being able to explore those things just enough removed, even if I know like a comic is a memoir, and it’s actually somebody’s story. There’s enough difference. Like I have friends who are cartoonists and I’ve read their stuff. And I’m like, it’s different enough that I know some of this actually happened to you. But it’s it’s, it’s I don’t connect it to them directly when I look at them. I’m the kind of person who likes to engage with media that things are worse than the things that I am going through in my life. So that I can get away from that worry about somebody else’s problems and the problem that is bigger than my own. So I don’t I don’t stray away from things and I’m Yeah, I like to, I like to process through comics and, and games and TV and movies. And that’s primarily how I work. So I don’t know, there’s there’s so many examples, like everything out there. Josué Cardona 18:21Yeah, yeah, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. I guess it surprised me to just think about like, oh, no way. Oh, that like, totally depends. It depends on how it’s like not every sh…

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Conferences and Kaiju Apr 25, 2021

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#296: Link discusses their enjoyment of the new Godzilla movie, the history of the franchise, and how the monster is always a metaphor. Lara and Josué connect the topic to other ‘giants’ including TAGGS, life milestones, and Gundam. SKREEEONK!! Transcript Josué Cardona 0:00Hello, and welcome to gt radio, on the Geek Therapy network. Here at Geek Therapy, we believe that the best way to understand each other and ourselves is through the media we care about, my name is Josué Cardona. And I’m joined by Lara Taylor. Lara Taylor 0:19Hey. Josué Cardona 0:19and Link Keller Link Keller 0:20Hey, Josué Cardona 0:22welcome. Welcome, everyone. It is it is Link’s turn. This week, Link Keller 0:28it’s my turn. Josué Cardona 0:29What are we talking about Link? Link Keller 0:30I want to talk about two things, and I’m gonna need your help making them connect. Josué Cardona 0:39Challenge accepted. Let’s do it. Link Keller 0:40First. I guess maybe it’s like three things. I want to I want to hear about how your presentation went last week, or the weekend. And I want to talk more about taggs because it is still popping off. And I can’t help but think about it all the time. So why not talk about it. And then also, I saw Godzilla vs. Kong the other day. So I want to talk about Godzilla. Josué Cardona 1:11So just Godzilla kaiju in general, other big monsters, like, Lara Taylor 1:17Can we talk about how we call our cat Godzuki? Now, Josué Cardona 1:21I mean, we want to know now why. Link Keller 1:22Absolutely. Lara Taylor 1:23Cuz he gets up on his hind legs and like, puts his paws in front of him. And he looks like a kaiju when he eats his treats and food. So we call him godzuki Josué Cardona 1:32That’s good. That’s good. What was it about Godzilla vs. Kong that like, like, Oh, I got to talk about this Link Keller 1:39fun. It was really fun. I enjoyed it. I had a good time watching it. Um, I had seen the Josué Cardona 1:48it’s the fourth in the series. Link Keller 1:50It’s the fourth in this set, though. There are over. I want to say 30 to 35 Godzilla movies, and 10 or 12 King Kong movies. But Godzilla is great. I love Godzilla. I like big monster kaiju movies in general. But Godzilla Of course, the king, the king of them all. Josué Cardona 2:15King of monsters. Yeah. All the monsters. Yeah, it was a lot of fun. It was it’s it’s also I think it was the first for me. Maybe I’m wrong, correct me if I’m wrong, Lara, because you just correct me. Okay, often so do that. Lara Taylor 2:37Now, I know I correct you often. But I have seen one Godzilla movie in my life. Josué Cardona 2:42It’s not about that. It’s about the fact that oh, we saw that. We got to see that movie at home. We didn’t have to see it in theaters. I mean, you may have it’s in theaters, too. But I was like, oh, like this is it felt like it felt like a bigger deal than even all the other movies. Just because it’s the type of movie I would have want. Like I can imagine. It’s like a kaiju movie, right? I want to see. Link Keller 3:07Yeah. As far as like I want to see in a theater. This is definitely within in that grouping, but it was fun watching it at home. Josué Cardona 3:15Yes, yeah. Yeah. No, I loved I loved that. That happened. Right. Like there’s other movies like I just saw Mortal Kombat. Right. Like, it should feel the same way right. Like oh, I kind of I wouldn’t had to see that in theaters. I said I saw it at home. But there’s something about the spectacle of it felt like a blockbuster. Huge movie. Huge kaijus fighting. Yeah, no, I love that. I thought a lot of fun. I love that so much. I really enjoyed it. I hadn’t seen Kong. So I watched Kong first and then I think the two Godzilla movies. And I loved it Link Keller 3:47Yeah. Josué Cardona 3:48Power of friendship is just you know, doesn’t matter. You know, whenever that pops up. It’s always good. Link Keller 3:54everyone loves the Power friendship. Josué Cardona 3:55Yeah. Lara Taylor 3:58Yeah, now I’m picturing My Little Ponies as kaiju. Friendship is magic Link Keller 4:03just make them big. And it works. Josué Cardona 4:07Like I mean, technically, King Kong and Godzilla didn’t exist in the same world until, until these movies started, you know, decided to Lara Taylor 4:14so you never know. They could make a movie and you could have my little pony Link Keller 4:17never existed? They’ve been crossed over since like the 50s! Josué Cardona 4:21Is that true? Lara Taylor 4:22Yes. Josué Cardona 4:23I guess that is. That is true. I used to do Godzilla and Kong. Really? I know Godzilla used to cross over into other stuff. I mean, I believe you, I guess. Lara Taylor 4:34like mothra and all that Josué Cardona 4:36well those are those monsters like are part of that world. Hmm. I didn’t I didn’t know. But it makes sense. Link Keller 4:45King Kong vs Godzilla was distributed by Toho. Who made majority of the Godzilla movies came out in 1962. Josué Cardona 4:54what?! Link Keller 4:56Yep Josué Cardona 4:57Wow. Wow. Hmm, that’s cool. There have been talks about Pacific Rim crossing over into like this. This Link Keller 5:06Pacific Rim has always just been like, Josué Cardona 5:10let me play. Come on, guys. Come on. Let me in. Let me Link Keller 5:13Yeah, it’s just been like, what if you take Godzilla add a little extra little extra sparkly spice? Josué Cardona 5:23Yeah, yeah. Link Keller 5:25And Charlie Day, and you’re great. It’s good to go. Yeah. Yeah. Josué Cardona 5:31I mean, it’s funny that you brought up the training, right? Like, I think I again, I can’t remember I mentioned this in the slack. I don’t remember if I made the Godzilla reference. In the training, I did a three hour Geek Therapy workshop at a convention conference called the expressive therapy summit. It was It was great. Like the group that was that was there was fantastic. It was it was a lot of fun. And I can’t remember if I made this reference there, or if it was that taggs, taggs is recorded. So we’ll definitely be able to see if this is if this is the case. But I, there was, I saw a tech talk where the guy was talking about the the Matthew Broderick version of Godzilla. And he’s saying, like, this is not a good Godzilla movie. But it’s an amazing kaiju design. Link Keller 6:26It’s like a really fun Jurassic Park movie. Josué Cardona 6:30Because it’s like, going to a restaurant that makes the best, you know, just amazing steak. And ordering that amazing steak. Instead, you get the best chicken you’ve ever had in your life. That’s what this is like. And I just watched that. And it made sense in the training. And it was like, I got it. I was like, I haven’t made a tik tok reference. I got to make a kaiju reference. It was it was good. I don’t remember what I use the metaphor for are they? It was it was just like, it was good. Lara Taylor 6:58I was hoping I was waiting for that waiting for that chant. Remember, Link Keller 7:02I don’t know what it was. But it was so apt Josué Cardona 7:05I think it worked. I think it worked. I don’t remember what I was talking about. Lara Taylor 7:13So true story. The only Godzilla movie I’ve ever seen is the Matthew Broderick one. Link Keller 7:201998 Godzilla. Josué Cardona 7:23Yeah. At the end all those baby godzillas we never we got that sequel, Lara Taylor 7:29we never got that sequel. Josué Cardona 7:31Nope, Link Keller 7:31I’m okay with that. Baby godzillas were just they were velociraptors. I also watched that one recently. Josué Cardona 7:39Yeah, it was quite a redesign. Link Keller 7:43It’s It’s such a different movie than what the original Godzilla was aiming for. Josué Cardona 7:56yeah Link Keller 7:57almost to an ironic level. Like it’s, it seems maybe intentionally ironic, but you can never be too sure. Josué Cardona 8:05It’s the embarrassing trend of the American version. Right? It’s like you did not but you’ve never seen a movie. Oh, you’ve never seen it. Link Keller 8:17That was one of the like, I remember when it came out is like that was a big complaint is people were like, Oh, the proof that the American versions are the American remakes suck. And I was like, I don’t get it. And because I was a kid and I had never seen a Godzilla movie before then. But having watched more Godzilla movies now. Very different, very different vibe for listeners and viewers who have not watched the 1956 I want to say 1956 was the first Godzilla movie it was, you know, like a decade out from World War Two and specifically atomic bombs in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. And Godzilla was very much in response to what like living with the fear of atomic bombing and and the monster is very much a metaphor. And so it was very interesting in the 98 one sort of turns around and is all like, Oh, no, no, Godzilla is like, just a regular old lizard that got affected by atomic stuff. Not Oh, totally different. It’s not the atomic thing is the threat is it’s like, like radiation poisoning is bad. I guess. It’s like, Huh. Josué Cardona 9:51I haven’t I haven’t seen the Hideaki Anno one. Who he’s the person who created Neon Genesis Evangelion. He made a live Action Godzilla in 2001. Was it 2010? It was it was 2010 or 11 seems. more accurate. Please fact checker. Let me know. And I hear it’s amazing. I want to see it. But I hear that it’s very much like it’s just it’s a political movie. Right. It’s a it’s like, Link Keller 10:25yes Josué Cardona 10:26political. Have you oh Have you seen it? Have you seen the hideaki anno one. The Shin Shin Godzilla is, Link Keller 10:33I don’t think I’ve seen Shin Godzilla. Josué Cardona 10:36Yeah. And so my understanding is that it’s not a monster movie. Right? It’s It’s It’s very much a movie about it’s a political drama movie with this going on. And it’s highly respected and I won a lot of awards and like it did a lot of I want to see it. Now. I want to see it even more. Oh, Gian, in the comment says that every iteration of Godzilla addresses an existential environmental threat. He is he is a Godzilla fan. I’ve never told I’ve never I’ve never I don’t think I’ve shared this with with with Gian. But there’s a store. There’s like a kaiju store here in Chicago. And I haven’t been because we’re in the middle of pandemic, but there’s a kaiju store here, like, Lara Taylor 11:23gotta go to the the kaiju store. Josué Cardona 11:25I’m waiting for Gian to come visit. Yeah, so you can come to the kaiju store. Link Keller 11:28Okay. I googled Shin Godzilla, and it’s 2016 is when it came out. But I want you if it’s on on Google, it has the people also ask section is why Shin Godzilla so scary? Lara Taylor 11:49Because it was made by the same guy that made Neon Genesis Evangelion. Josué Cardona 11:55Gian says it’s a monster movie about the uselessness of an overly bureaucratic government. Link Keller 12:00Yep. Josué Cardona 12:01Sounds good to me. Yeah. Yeah. I want to see it. I want to see it very badly. I think until recently, like, it was just like, it was just hard to, to see right. Like, I don’t know, where it wasn’t available on certain platforms. And I don’t know for a while it was like hard to, to find. And, yeah, so I have like, my kaiju like monster movies, a lot of movies that make you think it’s a there was news recently about the Mobile Suit Gundam movie, coming to Netflix, written by Brian K. Vaughan and directed by the director of kong skull island. I’m, I’m down. Yes, thank you. And I don’t think this has been confirmed. But one of the things that they that they mentioned was that it was going to be um, that it was going to be set in the Universal Century, which is the original, kind of the the first ever timeline of the of the Mobile Suit Gundam. There’s lots of different Gundam anime and shows and all sorts of stuff. But there’s a there’s a an original, it’s called the Universal Century. And that’s where the original series happened. And lots of other shows have happened. There. I was, whenever I thought of a movie about this, and this goes back to the Americans like mess things up version, right? If there’s gonna be an American version of Mobile Suit Gundam. I always think like, oh, they’re gonna recast Amuro Ray and they’re going to like all these Japanese characters, right? They’re not going to be they’re going to be played by Americans. Right? And, and they’re gonna change as names and Alex or something, right? It’s gonna be the just gonna change it. But But it seems like they’re not going to do that they’re gonna set it in the original timeline. And which makes perfect sense. It’s a it’s a show about inter galactic, like inter Solar System war, where everybody like, there’s the whole world is one thing. And there’s also colonies all throughout, and the different governments and they all have like these different mobile suits, and all these things happening. So you can make a Mobile Suit Gundam movie set in the United States, or somewhere in the West, that happens within that story and that timeline, because every country has mechs. At that point, every country has all of these things. And so all of that makes me very hopeful that it exists within that world. And I can tell a great story and it doesn’t have to, you know, be inconsiderate, of like, the source material or of any other countries that can be you know. Yeah, I’m excited about that. But it’s also like most of Gundam. It’s, there are political shows. It’s all about the politics between different countries and how horrible governments are. And I saw tik tok the other day where a guy was saying I’ve watched like I’ve never watched Gundam like I wasn’t super attracted to the idea of these mech stuff, right? It’s like oh, no, but I saw it now. I like I’ve been watching Gundam and I don’t understand how basically a political drama like resulted in this multi billion dollar toy industry right where like, like, like it’s just mechs and plastic like stuff but like the whole show is about it’s like it’s serious like, honestly like some Gundam shows that it kind of boring if you’re there for like, battles and stuff. That’s not that’s not what’s happening. It’s, it’s all drama. I love it. It’s one of my favorite. That’s what all this is up here. A lot of Lara Taylor 15:32the same thing can be said for a lot of things that we like they are like Star Wars is a political drama. Josué Cardona 15:37I don’t necessarily I don’t agree with that. Lara Taylor 15:41I think it does, i agree Link Keller 15:42i think it has. It has political elements to it, but it doesn’t focus on it. Josué Cardona 15:47It’s a fantasy space opera, family drama. And Link Keller 15:52Yeah, Lara Taylor 15:54you go transmedia and you go to the books? You go to the comics? You got to experiment Josué Cardona 16:01i won’t argue with that? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like what most people have seen, right? It’s like, it’s like the Gundam version. It’s like, if you even if you’re one of those 90s kids who only saw a Gundam Wing. Take it is like slow and like the ideas presented there like that. Oh, you know, what’s happening there, even with the giant mechs it’s like, it’s all politics like, wow, like people. It’s like people who complain about the prequels and that dinner, like all the Trade Federation, and it’s all about taxes. It’s like, yeah, that’s how they set up that whole first movie, which I know goes against what I just said about Star Wars not being political. But they Lara Taylor 16:40did that enemy original Star Wars was based on what Vietnam? Link Keller 16:45Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So yeah, I mean, all art is political is the is the foundational argument there. Whether it’s with intention or not matters, I think Star Wars’ main intentions are more fantasy, and, you know, power fulfillment and, and that kind of stuff with political backgrounds. With you know, especially the older Godzilla movies they are, they are about politics with a background of like, Oh, shit, that’s a giant monster beating the shit out of another giant monster. Or buildings. All of the buildings. Jo…

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Human Memory is Garbage Apr 18, 2021

Show notes

#295: Lara, Link, and Josué discuss the game Tell Me Why, and have a conversation about the fallibility of memory and how it impacts relationships and life narratives. Transcript Josué Cardona 0:00Hello. Welcome to gt radio. I’m gonna get the Welcome to gt radio on the Geek Therapy network. Here Geek Therapy believe that the best way to understand each other and ourselves through the media we care about. My name is Josué Cardona. I’m joined by Link Keller. Link Keller 0:20What’s up? Josué Cardona 0:21and Lara Taylor? Lara Taylor 0:23Hey, Josué Cardona 0:24hello. It’s your turn, Lara. So what are we talking? What are we talking about today? Lara Taylor 0:28My turn? Yeah. Okay, so I know I’m a little bit late to this train. But I just finished playing Tell Me Why. And I think is really good game for many different reasons. It’s by dontnod. And it’s so similar kind of style to Life is Strange, but which we’ve talked about at length before. But this game is, I don’t know, I, I don’t know, I might have liked it more than Life is Strange. Maybe kind of maybe, I don’t know. Josué Cardona 1:08if That’s true. It’s fine. Lara Taylor 1:10It’s okay, if it’s true. But I still I’m in love with Chloe in Life is Strange. So a little different. Um, but tell me why the premise of the game is you’re playing identical twins, one of which is a trans man. And they can talk to each other in their heads. And they also see their memories come like replay in front of them. And it got me thinking because the two of them as two different individuals will see the same situation differently. And in the game, you get to pick which one is they don’t necessarily say it as like the real one. But you go with believing whichever one of the two at certain points. Okay, it was, it was a good metaphor a few times this week talking with clients who actually played the game. And even myself, looking at how our emotions and our experiences and our internal states influence how we see things that are happening in front of us this, like, I don’t know, something happens in front of me. And my wife also sees it. And we could read something completely differently. Even if it’s an objective thing that happens, like a car crashes into another car. Well, I don’t know, somebody sees a person’s face and thinks it’s angry, and somebody thinks it’s like, they were confused and like, disoriented, I don’t know. But in the game, there are a few of these moments where you get to decide and they deliberate, like, No, no, no, no, no, you’re wrong. She was mad. She wasn’t sad that day, she was mad. And this is what happened. And this is how the argument went. It’s just a really cool, cool thing to explore. Josué Cardona 3:23So the game plays out that way, like it like has both characters, they, they both see things differently. And then you have to like, what is your role within the game, Link Keller 3:34you’re playing the two twins, you trade off on which of them you are controlling at any given scene, and they’re sort of walking around their home that they grew up in. And, you know, interacting with the townspeople and sort of like Life is Strange, just sort of walking around and interacting with things and reading, you know, the little blurbs about them its mostly just storytelling. But every so often there are these, you know, major moments where the two siblings are, you know, just discussing why it’s like, oh, hey, you remember when that thing happened when we were kids is like, Yeah, I remember this story. And they’re like, what I remember this story. And I don’t know there’s probably like four, or five that you choose as being this one is, the more believable one or as ends up being non spoilery. The last one, the big the big one that you build up to this moment where deciding which you know which version of a memory to believe it has less to do with which one is real and which one is more emotionally fulfilling for you as the player to apply to these characters you have come to learn and care about Lara Taylor 4:57right? Right. Link Keller 4:59Not There is not a right answer. Lara Taylor 5:01There’s not a right answer. And much like Life is Strange. It tells you which one you pick and how many what percentage of people picked. That choice is, like, the whole premise is there’s big family secrets, big family trauma, and you are trying to figure out what happened as an adult to you as a child to these characters as a child or as children. So in the same way as, and I think I related related to it, because there are a lot of things coming out now say about my mom, and how she took care of her health and other things that I didn’t know when I was a kid. And I think when our kids in the game, they’re about 11, which is about when I was when my mom died. And so learning these things as an adult, I’m like, Whoa, I didn’t, I didn’t know that happened. Um, so watching them interact with the townspeople as adults, and get to know them as adults. And like, oh, whoa, I just thought this thing was happening when we were kids. I never would have guessed that mom and her friend were having this issue or whatever it is, you know. And it’s an interesting experience, seeing how they play on the memories like that. And like how I’m, yeah, different perspectives and seeing, like, people focus on different things and different and have different differing opinions. And there’s, like Link said, there’s only so many of choices, but you see a lot more memories, and then most of the memories that will be like, Oh, yeah, I remember that. And they both remember the same thing. Link Keller 6:55There are also elements where you get to not necessarily see, like, flashback style, what happened in the past, but the other characters that you’re interacting with, will also refer to past events with their own particular perspective. And if you’re, if you’re paying attention, you start picking up on that stuff, and is really interesting to see. Not just, you know, how do people prioritize the things that they remember, you know, how emotions affect memory. But also, you know, the language we choose to retell stories. That ends up being more of the memory than the events is when you retell a story over and over again. And so getting to see these young adults sort of be like, I know that story that you used to say is bullshit, I’m an I’m an adult now, like, be straight with me. And the person’s like, I don’t know what you’re talking about. I’ve told this version of the story so long that that’s the that’s the true version. Lara Taylor 7:59Yeah. Yes. Link Keller 8:01Like, well, I found this post it note and the back of the freezer that says otherwise. Ooh, mystery. Josué Cardona 8:09Do you ever see the truth? Link Keller 8:14Sure. from two perspectives of two different preteens Josué Cardona 8:19Got it. So what you’re seeing is their recollection of events. You’ve never actually there’s never like a, like a neutral. True perspective, Lara Taylor 8:28no Josué Cardona 8:28like you’re never wrong Link Keller 8:30what, what would that be? Josué Cardona 8:32Well, umm Lara Taylor 8:34there is no neutral. Nothing happens in a vacuum. There is no neutral, true perspective. Josué Cardona 8:39What I mean is like, there are video recordings of events of like, when I was curious now, Link Keller 8:43there is no omniscience. Back to the Future style, where it reveals the real version, it there is no real version, all that exists is what exists in our heads. Josué Cardona 8:57I mean, I guess, Lara Taylor 9:02because even if you watch a video, when you’re even if you watch a video of your childhood, you might remember still remember it differently than the person another person who was there even if you’re watching it Josué Cardona 9:13oh right, right, right. Yeah. Yeah. But like, like, Oh, I remember my, my room was painted blue. And it’s like, no, it was green. It’s like, Oh, yeah, prove it. It’s like, Oh, well, here’s a video like, Lara Taylor 9:23Oh, right, like those kinds of things. But that’s different from like experiences and interactions and the kinds of things that they’re dealing with in the game. I’m Josué Cardona 9:36I’m curious, like, I love this concept of memory, and I haven’t played the game. That’s why I’m asking a lot of questions. I’m very interested. It’s Lara Taylor 9:41really good. It’s actually pretty short. It’s only three chapters. Josué Cardona 9:45I’m looking forward to it now because I’ve had conversations like this recently, and I was talking to someone the other day about the research that was done on memory around 911. And how everybody like has a very clear memory of where they were, Link Keller 9:58and 90% of The time they’re not accurate. Josué Cardona 10:02They kept changing, right? Like, like, like this one thing. It was a great experiment because like, sure, in general, we know human memory is garbage. But like, how do you measure that? Well, you take a giant traumatic event for an entire country that everybody knew, like, collectively experience, and then ask them every two or three years to retell you the story. And some of them were completely different. Like they were in a different place like that. Everything was different. And I’m like, I get it like I can. I think I’ve been telling the same story for 10 years. I didn’t write it down. Nobody recorded it. And I’m, you know, I don’t trust my own memory. I say that, but at the same time, like, there’s no doubt in my own memory, right, like, but I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t. I wouldn’t like bet money that I’m 100%, right, because I don’t I don’t trust my own memory. But there’s no reason for me to not trust it, other than knowing that human memory is garbage. So I was just curious if some of the events in the game play out differently depending on like, Did you remember if there were any facts that were, you know, that were like, if we both remembered wrong, right? Oh, now we then there’s a different ending or something like that. Lara Taylor 11:13I there are some facts. But like, as far as the big things you basically get to choose, you choose as the player what the answer is, whether it is and it’s not even a definitive answer, it’s, this is what we’re choosing to believe this, this is what we’re taking from the information we’ve gathered. And there’s one point in the game that I really liked that one of the characters starts having panic attacks, and not able to, and the memories are playing tricks on them. So things that people have said about them in passing, were the thoughts that this characters had going through their head will then appear, and they physically see these memories. Like it’s like these glittering outlines of the characters, but like, things that never happened start happening as if they were memory in the same way. And we do that all the time as human beings, we will think that somebody said something about us, and they definitely did not. But we tell ourselves, that’s what happened. And so at one point, there’s also this point of like, Are our memories real? Is this what really happened? Because this is, this has been happening to me, and I know that the things that are popping up his memory are not real. So maybe overall, overall, this whole thing has been bullshit. And it’s really cool to play through that too. Josué Cardona 12:56I cannot wait to play this game. Um, Lara Taylor 13:00yeah, yeah. Link Keller 13:01It also has a couple of cool puzzles, which I love. Lara Taylor 13:04I love the puzzles. And I love the storytelling aspect of how I mean, the two characters are trying to figure out something about their mom. And then as a kid as kids, the mom developed this whole like fairy tale and they are goblins. Her goblins and then like, they have all these different forest animals. And she’s telling her story through these fairy tales she wrote for her kids. And I think there’s a lot of power in that to this game is beautiful and amazing. Link Keller 13:43Yeah, that’s, that’s definitely you know, Part part of the themes that they’re grappling with is like, she the mom took a series of traumatic events and turned it into a tale that she could then share with her children to try and explain like this is you know, why we’re here and what’s happening in our past and you know, trying to answer some of the questions but in a manageable way without actively Delving into your own trauma Lara Taylor 14:10traumatize your children Link Keller 14:12and then just being like here intergenerational trauma for you. I mean, she ended up doing that a little bit anyways, but in a fun storytelling way. But it really adds to the whole thing about, you know, the power of stories and how, you know, memory and storytelling go together and how the feelings end up being way, way longer lasting impact wise than any particular like plot elements or character elements. It’s like these kids had you know, their mom basically drew them a beautiful book, a beautiful fairy tale book with all these stories inside and it’s like as adults, they’re like, Oh, this lady A friendly bear character is our friendly bear character neighbor. They were they were the towns people all along. And it’s like, I mean, 11 year olds aren’t that dumb, right? Come on. But it’s like, that wasn’t the point of the story. They didn’t have that context to that it was like, No, mom’s not just making this up, mom is telling us something in a way that she hopes we can handle. It’s really good. It’s it’s, there are a handful of parts that made me a little uncomfortable, just just in the way of having two siblings who are very close to each other, but they have been estranged for a while. And so there’s this sort of familiarity stranger element, and it’s like, you are the person I can trust more than anybody else in the whole world, like you’re my other half. But then also, like, Lara Taylor 15:59I don’t know, you I Link Keller 16:00don’t I don’t know if I can trust you with like these littler things, or how to even bring them up to share them with you to, you know, provide you a chance to earn trust or whatever. And so having, having a couple of scenes be like okay, choose which one you think is real, was really, really hard. Because for me, projecting onto this choice, if I felt for me is like, if I choose this one, I am completely invalidating this other person’s experience, experience. But if I support them, then I am causing harm currently. And so it’s like that it’s really tough to be like, I want I want to, I want to validate everybody’s feelings and traumas. And it’s like, yeah, whatever you remembered, sure. That’s what happened exactly. Like, no cap is like, Oh, wait, I have to choose. Shit Lara Taylor 17:01doesn’t. And it doesn’t help that in some situations, when you choose, it doesn’t hurt the person as much as you think it will. Like, they’re like, Oh, yeah, I guess I can see that way. That makes sense. kind of thing. And it also depends on how you’re playing each of the characters, too. And how you think, because that’s another aspect, you get to pick how angry Tyler is at certain things, and how and how angry Alyson is at certain things and how much she wants to push back on things. So yeah, the player has a lot of choice, doesn’t have a lot of choice, but still has a lot of choice in how they are going to play these characters. And it’s, I enjoy it. But I do get your point about invalidating people’s feelings. Link Keller 17:54And it’s only, I mean, I don’t I don’t want to be specific, because I do want people to just play the game. And maybe you’ll choose something different than I chose. But it’s like there, there were definitely at least two choices where I was just like, This isn’t fair. i don’t wanna pick. Which I guess that’s, you know, if you don’t care, then like why play? So obviously it’s impactful, Lara Taylor 18:16and there’s no third option, which is like, Well, maybe you’re right about this, and maybe I’m right about this…

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