Explore unschooling with Pam Laricchia, Anna Brown, and Erika Ellis. Helping parents bring lifelong learning and strong, connected relationships to life in their ordinary days.
EU418: When Teachers Become Unschoolers
Sep 24, 2026
Pam and Anna interviewed three former teachers who are all unschooling parents and members of the Living Joyfully Network. Erika Ellis, Jen Hollis, and Michelle Kren shared their experiences becoming teachers as well as their thought processes as they chose unschooling for their own families. They talked about their changing views of education and how their roles as teachers helped shape their ideas of parenting.
It was a fascinating window into a very common phenomenon – teachers becoming unschoolers! We hope the conversation sparks some insights for you.
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EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
PAM: Hello everyone, I am Pam Laricchia from Living Joyfully and today I’m joined by my co-hosts Erika Ellis and Anna Brown, as well as our guests Michelle Kren and Jen Hollis. Hello to you all.
So, today’s episode is a panel style featuring teachers who became unschoolers. And Erika is joining Michelle and Jen as we explore aspects of their journey and reflect on this very interesting perspective. So, I’m very much looking forward to our conversation. Anna, would you like to get us started?
ANNA: I would. So, first, thanks for joining us. I’m kind of excited about this one.
I think it’ll be an interesting conversation because it is actually really wild how many teachers turned unschoolers I’ve met over the course of these last 25 years. And it makes sense, right? Because teachers deeply know what’s happening in education. They’re passionate about it. It’s something that’s important to them. So, it really makes sense.
But I can’t wait to hear about each of your unique journeys. So, this first question will just be, tell us briefly about your journey to becoming a teacher. What drew you to the field? How did it unfold for you? What did that part look like? And I’m going to start, Erika, with you and then we’ll kind of move around to the rest.
ERIKA: I’m excited about this too. It’s something that honestly at this point I don’t think about that often, but I also have met a lot of teachers. And so, yeah, it’s just very curious.
I was only a teacher in public school for two years before I had children. When I left school, I was planning to be in film production, which I did for several years. But that field out in LA is mostly project by project.
And when we were thinking about having children, it seemed a little bit risky for both me and my husband to be finding job by job what we were going to do next. And so, I was looking for things that I could do that would be more steady and just know what I was going to get paid for the year, basically. And so, that was kind of where I started.
But many years before that, as a kid, I wanted to be a teacher because I loved school. I loved being a student. I loved curriculum. I loved tests. I just loved everything about it. And so, it wasn’t far from my mind as a possibility of something that I could do.
But then, of course, as we grow, we learn and change our minds about things. And so, I hadn’t thought about it until I was really just looking for some more stability. And the way my mind works is like I’m a scanner.
I am interested in many, many things. And so, there were always things I could pull from, like I was in film production, but my undergrad was in biopsychology. So, I was like, I can teach science.
I could do different options. And so, when I was thinking about a stable job, something I would be able to do in the area where I was, I thought about getting a teaching credential and teaching high school science. And that whole process was actually really easy for me.
It seemed like a good fit as far as the pay is pretty good. The union in LA for teachers is really great. And so, I got good benefits. And it just drew me in that this would be good for our family financially. And I just, I love learning. I love science. I love kids. There were lots of things that I was like, this is gonna be great. But I never knew how long I would stick with it because I also envisioned myself being a stay-at-home mom.
I really wanted to devote myself to really focusing on connection with my kids. And so, since we knew we were planning on starting our family, I didn’t know what the whole journey would look like. And so, I told my husband, Josh, that from the start, you’ve got to be ready for this to last two years or 50 years. I just don’t know. And I have figured out the math. It’s going to work either way. But is that fine with you? If I put all this effort into it and then I walk away from it, is that gonna freak you out? And he’s like, no, we always figure it out.
I definitely went into it not sure how the whole process was going to go. But there were things I loved about it. I loved the topics, I taught integrated science. So that’s a little bit of biology and a little bit of physics and a little bit of chemistry and a little bit of earth science. And so, that was very fun.
And the kids, of course, were amazing. And I don’t have to get into all of the details of what happened later. But I just, I definitely learned a lot about, what even, what is this? I started questioning things a lot more than I did when I was a student in school, because I could really see the whole picture of what we’re asking of these kids. And I definitely started to change my mind about how much I loved school at that point.
ANNA: Yeah, oh my goodness, I can totally imagine that. So Michelle, let’s go to you next. And then we’ll go to you, Jenna.
MICHELLE: Okay, it’s funny that Erika got about two years of teaching in because that’s the same amount of time of teaching that I got in. Like her, I did want to be a teacher for forever since probably about second grade. I loved my teacher. I loved to play school and everything. And I was pretty good at performing in school. I loved to babysit. I loved kids. So it just kind of made sense. So, I worked well in school so that I could get a scholarship so I could go to college so I could be a teacher.
Go on the path, do the things. And I really felt like I wanted to help kids at a foundational level, that I wanted to be in on the ground floor because I felt like as students got older and if they weren’t supported in the early years, that the problems just kept compounding. And that whene they got to high school, you have this kid that’s hated school for all these years, it felt like they’re doomed now.
So I really wanted to be in on the ground floor. I did my student teaching in second grade and enjoyed that experience. I actually, in one of my phases, got to be in a classroom that was first and second grade. It was kind of nice to have the youngers and the olders just to have that little bit of a different dynamic where it’s not so based on age. There’s a little bit more flexibility in that.
I got married right out of college and moved to where my husband was and I couldn’t quite get a job right away. So I did substitute teaching, which I enjoyed. I enjoyed the flexibility. I enjoyed the variety of it. Like, I don’t know what grade I’m going to be in today and what the kids are going to be like and all of that. I liked coming with a teacher bag of some books I liked if we had a few extra minutes to read to them before recess or whatever. I liked that part.
But then I did end up, once we moved again, working in a small Hebrew academy. That’s where I taught for two years. The only availability was to teach fifth grade my first year. And then it was fifth and sixth grade my second year. And so that’s what I did, which was really interesting because the fourth grade teacher, as I was coming in, I was thinking, oh, she’ll be able to mentor me and help me. She’s got so much experience and she can help me, give wisdom to me.
She told me, oh, this class was the best class. You’re going to love it. These kids, they’re all great students and everything. And they were, they were great. But then we had a couple other students get added to the mix very shortly after. And that just kind of threw everything upside down. And I’m trying to adapt for all the different needs of all the different children and everything like that.
It was quite challenging, I just felt a lot of burden or pressure, just trying to rack my brain on how can I meet the needs of this kid? And this kid and this kid. This kid can read college level and this kid can read like second grade. And how am I supposed to meet the needs of all these kids? So, yeah, that’s kind of my journey to becoming a teacher.
ANNA: Okay, thank you. Jenna.
JEN: When I think about this question, it’s sort of like, where do I begin? Do I take it all back to my early childhood years? Which, you know, always looking forward, things don’t tend to make sense. So I find it really interesting that we as parents and teachers get so fixated on the child’s future. When you look back at anyone’s life, could anyone really say that? Yes, I knew that I wanted to be this and my path was this clean sequence of events.
And so when I think about my path into becoming a teacher, I actually didn’t want to become a teacher. I never really thought about it. I actually wanted to be a chef at one point. And as I was going about my experience, I realized, well, that was probably going to require me to work late at night. And I’m just not a night owl. I’m early to bed, early to wake.
And then so, the kinds of conversations as you’re getting towards that back end of your high school years, all the adults in your world are starting to ask those questions. What’s the plan for after school? And so, of course, I had to have a plan.
I was like, OK, being a chef wasn’t going to quite work for me. And I think I must have just plucked it out of thin air. What if I explore being a teacher? Once I made that decision, I really committed to my studies and ended up doing really well. I got into uni, started my degree as a primary school teacher. And when I did my first prac, I ended up coming home from that thinking, I don’t know about this.
All of the teachers just seemed really unhappy. And for me, it was like, if I’m going to do anything, it’s got to be something that’s meaningful. And then I’m going to enjoy it because we spend so much of our time at work. That was a non-negotiable for me. Anyway, I was having a conversation with my mom saying, I’m not sure about this. It just doesn’t seem like anyone’s happy in this industry.
And at the time I was working in a sales company. I was just doing some telemarketing and I saw these salespeople going out and selling. I think it was an alarm system door to door. And I thought that was a really great other option. I really was looking at it, I really don’t want to do this. That seems like a really good idea could start to generate some decent money. And my mom was like, absolutely not. You have worked way too hard to get here. Choose another degree. And I’m like, okay.
And so then I moved into early childhood and I absolutely loved that degree. And the difference was I found primary school teaching was all about subjects, whereas an early childhood degree was focused on the whole child. And so I really, really loved that study.
And so as I’m going about it and I started to do my work placements, I didn’t absolutely love working in the industry, but I loved the study of the whole child. And so then I did my final year of uni and ended up going to the Cook Islands for a whole month to do my final prac, which is pretty cool. I came back, got a job in an early childhood center, which, you know, again, it was okay. I really loved connecting with the parents, really loved connecting with the children.
But that didn’t last very long because I discovered that I wasn’t being paid properly. So then I approached the owners of the center and they validated. Yes, you haven’t been paid correctly. And please don’t tell the other staff. And that was my red flag to go, okay, here’s my resignation. And of course, I let my friends know who I was working with that you might just want to tune into whether you’re being paid correctly.
And so down that path was letting the parents know, they were all really upset that I was leaving and I was upset to be leaving them. But what came about was that one of those parents was a teacher. She was actually an assistant principal at her school and she was going on maternity leave towards the end of that year.
And I was saying to her that, I’m just going to go and do some casual teaching back in the primary school system. And she’s like, oh, you know what, actually, would you like a job? And so one thing led to another and I ended up starting that position towards the end of the year.
And I absolutely loved it. I loved the structure. I loved the conditions, compared to the early childhood conditions of work. It just was like a breath of fresh air. I had two hours a week of planning time as opposed to working 10 hours a day needing to work out when I was going to do any of the planning. On top of that, better pay and all the rest of it.
And so I really loved the structure of it. And so for the next sort of four years, I really dived into that world. And because I was based in a really small school, I got all these amazing opportunities. I became the reading recovery teacher. So we really got to understand the mechanics of reading or what I thought were the mechanics of reading as it was being delivered to me. And I was also in class at the same time.
So I had a class that I was responsible for and I was doing reading recovery, which was a massive load. I literally felt like I jumped in the deep end and learnt so much in such a short period of time. But as my husband and I, we got married, and we started to think about a family, we ended up having our first child.
And I had every intention of going back to teaching because like I said, I loved my job. But as time went on and it got closer to that point, I was just like, I can’t leave my baby. I can’t leave my baby to be raised by someone else while I go back into a profession that demands so much of my time and energy.
And I just couldn’t see the possibility. It was like, how could I be the teacher that I was before I had children as well as be the mum that I wanted to be? And so at that time, my husband had his own business and it just made financial sense as well for me to be at home, for me to help out with the admin and really prioritize raising our family.
That’s basically where my teaching journey started to taper off. I always had this idea that I was going to go back. But as time went on and I started to experience life as a parent, teaching just didn’t make sense to me anymore.
It didn’t make sense. I have complete admiration for those teachers out there that are doing both because it’s such a demanding job. Personally, and I am a person who likes to do well at everything that I do. And I just knew that for me, that was not going to happen. I do believe I probably would have ended up sacrificing my family big time to be that teacher who I really wanted to be.
But when I think about the time that I did spend in teaching, I was really focused on engagement. How can I really engage these students? And I think a lot of that came from my own childhood experience of being in school and feeling completely disengaged, feeling like I was more interested in watching human behavior than what the teacher was delivering.
It’s just interesting when you do reflect back at your own journey, so much of it makes sense when you’re looking back. But this whole idea of being able to look into the future and have it all figured out, it kind of makes me think like, gosh, we put so much pressure on ourselves as teachers and parents to have these children’s lives figured out when they have so much to teach us. But yeah, I’ll stop there. Otherwise I can talk forever.
ANNA: No, no, I appreciate it. And I think you’re right, we have this idea that we can control and have this linear path. And yeah, it just doesn’t work that way. But gosh, do we see the connections when we look back and how it’s gotten us here? So I just appreciate all those stories. So amazing.
PAM: And I’m just super excited now to take the next step because you’ve been looking back and putting the story together for yourselves. So it will be very interesting to hear how you then came to decide to unschool your own kids. And do you feel that it was easier to make that choice because of your teaching background or did that make it more difficult?
And also curious to know about whether you had a lot of pressure from external voices, like friends and family who were also in education. I feel like they kind of come in bunches too sometimes. So I think this will be very interesting to hear.
And Michelle, would you like to start this one?
MICHELLE: Sure. So for me, I feel like the decision to unschool my kids was a very organic unfolding type of thing. My husband and I have five children.
Right now, their ages are from 19 to 10. And so basically, I was having a child every two years. And so as my first two were approaching school age, the bond that I had with my children. I essentially didn’t want to give them up.
And so while I can’t really remember the conversations about, are we going to homeschool our kids or not? But I remember it just unfolding. People around us are homeschooling. So that feels like, okay, we’re not alone. There are other families doing this. And also the fact that my first two sons both taught themselves to read at very young ages. So the oldest was four, and his brother was two.
And it was kind of like a party joke, not a party joke, like party trick. Oh, look at my two year old reading. People would do that, and ask, do you know this word? Do you know this word? And because it was so baffling, like, are you kidding me?
So, with your first two children teaching themselves to read, which that’s why we go to school, right? To learn to read and write. So if that part’s already taken care of, then what’s my kid going to do in a school anyways?
I wanted to learn alongside my children. I saw them learning already. And to me, you’re learning all the time. You’re learning from all sorts of things, and ways. You are learning how to be in relationship with people as a family. That was always something when I was having another baby, I couldn’t imagine all the other siblings having to go off to school right now and not be able to be with the new baby.
I did start with a curriculum for my oldest just because I thought, well, let’s try that. It was like a unit studies thing. And I liked that it was every six days because you are always rotating. It wasn’t like Monday through Friday, right?
So because it was six days, it was always rotating and that helped it feel like you were never behind. So, I liked that aspect about it. And because I’m a learner, I love to learn. I’m a very curious person. I was looking into different people’s homeschool things and philosophies and things like that.
So I came across some different people like Julie Bogart. She’s been in homeschooling for a really long time. And she is very open to unschooling and has talked about it, doing a little bit of it herself with her five kids and such. Sally Clarkson is another person that I had looked to and then I found Pam back in those early days. So I’ve been listening to the podcast for a really long time and actually reached out to a guest that was on the podcast, Amy Martinez.
She and I are friends now and have been for numerous years. I looked, it was 2019 that I reached out to her for the first time because she had five kids and she was further down the road. And that’s one of the things that I think is so beautiful about this community and homeschooling in general is just the helping. It’s the education, but it’s also the parenting.
It’s the whole picture, right? Unschooling is learning without school and pretending like school doesn’t exist and things like that. As far as it being easier or harder though, I was kind of torn on which I thought. It’s a good question. I just, I’m not quite sure if I think it’s easier or harder.
I think that my instinctual ideas about learning fit really nicely with unschooling, and things not being arbitrary. I really did not like that about school, you have to learn this because you’re this grade and you’re this age and all of that.
That was something that did not sit well with me. And so, I wanted a lot of time to not feel hurried and rushed. I had these school experiences. I had my own growing up in school. I had teaching in school. I had all these different experiences. I kind of got a little smattering of each of the different types.
And so then it was like, well, I get to pick which one I think is best out of all of these because I tried them all. I did also approach it as like, this is an experiment too. We are taking this one step at a time and if something’s not working at some point, we can pivot, we can try something else.
So, just organically making our way to let’s keep learning the things that are in front of us, the things that we’re interested in. I think about my five different kids and just what they’ve been interested in over the years. I couldn’t just, oh, yeah, we’re learning this science curriculum. And I just didn’t want to go that way.
PAM: Oh, that’s beautiful, Michelle. I love that piece, too, you know, that, like you said, that it’s not like a forever decision that you can keep trying things and keep learning. You said you’ve always been interested in learning yourself and figuring these things out.
And the point about, especially with a large number of kids, the number of interests that I’m sure would weave through, continue to weave through your home is super numerous. So yeah, to try and fit that all into some sort of curriculum-y schedule, I can imagine would be very difficult. Erika, would you like to go next?
ERIKA: I feel like in one way, my teaching journey is completely separate from my own unschooling journey. But certainly, it must have informed it, but I view my unschooling journey as really just me listening to my kid, my oldest, and it kind of naturally flowing from our relationship that was growing as he was growing. When he was a little kid, he was kind of scared of other little kids.
And I also saw that he was, he was slow to speak. I just could see these things that I’m like, this could be a problem for someone in a school setting. But to me, it didn’t seem to be a problem. I could see him learning and communicating and all these things. But I could see if his behavior at school was similar to his behavior on the playground. It could be a problem in school.
He’s running away from other kids. He doesn’t want to do what anyone else is doing. He’s very specific about what he wants to do and very clear about it. But, and also just so sensitive. And so I was just putting together this image in my mind of what that would look like for this little guy to be in a school setting. And it just didn’t feel good to me. And so that really was my reason for looking into other options.
And I did find project-based homeschooling first. Which could work. But any kind of adult-imposed ideas just have never been okay with either of my children, really. And so in order to really facilitate them learning about things, it had to be their decision of what the thing was going to be.
And so it made me think about something I’ve heard about teaching, which is that teachers are kind of like taking away the most fun part of learning when they pick the curriculum and plan all the activities. So, if an individual child is choosing what to learn and how to learn it, there’s so much more that they can get out of it than if somebody comes in with that already pre-planned. And plus, as teachers, we know that part’s also really fun. It’s our most fun part. And the kids aren’t getting to do that. We’re just coming and putting it on them.
And so I really thought a lot about that. I had heard that somewhere and it made sense to me. And so I do think it probably was slightly easier to choose unschooling given my teaching background, just because I had become aware. I had the rosy view of what I could imagine school was like kind of eliminated over my experience as a ninth grade teacher.
I was in a title one school in LA. It was great. We had such a nice atmosphere as far as a real safe place for kids. And the teachers seemed to all be there for the right reasons. And it had a nice, I don’t know, it was a nice community. And at the same time, I was like, these kids don’t need to learn earth science right now.
This is literally the last thing they need and they’re not interested in it. And so I just felt horrible giving them anything in addition to what they were already carrying, the loads that they were carrying, taking care of their younger siblings, working jobs. They were like 15 years old, but they had to work because their family needs that additional support. So they were already, in my opinion, it seemed like they were already young adults having to shoulder so much responsibility.
And it just felt ridiculous for me to say, and now do this homework because this is the most important thing. I just couldn’t do it. And so I saw teachers who really did in their core believe that this was the most important thing. And for them, that worked, they could do it. And I couldn’t do it. I just couldn’t make myself believe it, just based on what I had heard about, what my kids would tell me about, what was going on at home and what was going on in the neighborhoods.
And it just didn’t feel right to me. And so I ended up never giving homework. It was always just review what we did in class, you know?
So then for those few students whose parents were like, I know you have homework, they could do something. But for the kids who were overwhelmed already, I was not going to be a person who would add to that for them. And so I do think having that experience made me question it a little bit more.
And then definitely as I started diving into unschooling and learning more about that, then I started really looking back to my own experience as a kid in school and questioning all that had happened as well. Because I did love it. And you know, in some ways, and in some ways, it was terrifying.
All the things because you’re in this kind of super controlled environment, lots of rules, lots of expectations, and I wanted to not get in trouble and all of that. So all of those kind of things, I started reflecting on later. I don’t really remember pressure from external voices at all.
But I’m kind of immune to that, for the most part, just personality wise, like I’m going to do the things I want to do. But yeah, I think people probably looked at my decision as like, well, she knows what she’s doing. So they assume that’s the best choice. It’s been interesting for sure.
PAM: I can feel like you having that teacher’s experience is kind of one thing that can show people when you make the choice to teach your own kids, that you tick a little box for their acceptance versus the how on earth are you going to learn how to do that? You’re not a teacher.
So Jen, how about you? What’s your experience?
JEN: Homeschooling was never on my radar. I don’t even think I really even thought about it, probably because no one around me was doing it. And for the most part, with my eldest son school was a pretty good fit.
And then, like I said, I didn’t really think about homeschooling as such. But as my second son came into the world, and I watched how he learnt from the world around him, I started to question how school was going to work for him. He’s pretty much like what Erika was saying, he really is quite immune to other people’s ideas for him.
He just pretty much runs his own show. He was a very hands-on learner as well. And so I could just see, I think I intuitively knew that it wouldn’t work. I just wasn’t sure how school was going to work out for him. Anyway, we just kind of went about raising our kids the way that we knew how. They started off in an early childhood setting. So, they actually joined the prep program that was part of the private school that we had decided to send them to. And that was quite beautiful. The teachers that had both my eldest son and my second son were amazing.
They were very whole child focused, very play based as well. But then as my second son was starting prep, I started to notice even things in prep started to change. There was less focus on the play side of things, and things started to become a lot more structured.
But thankfully, I had an amazing teacher that was in that space. And she was very much relationship based, she really put a lot of focus in connecting with the children. And so that was a really beautiful experience for Hayes. I often would talk to her about how I’m really concerned about how Hayes is going to go moving forward into this more structured approach to learning. But like I said, we just sort of continue down that pathway that we knew. And as he went into kindergarten, he actually had the same teacher that my eldest son had.
And she was an amazing teacher in that she was very academic, like you could just see that she knew her content. But the piece that was missing was that connection piece. I felt like there was this big focus on academics, but it didn’t land because she did not have that connection with the children, she didn’t have children herself.
I can appreciate that when you have gone through the system, and you go on to uni, and you do really well at uni, and it becomes all about the academics. And so that was a real missing piece. And so I started to see Hayes not gelling with that classroom environment.
But again, just continuing on with what we knew, it wasn’t a big problem. But it was sort of then that I was starting to question things. And then as he went into year one, Blair, my third son, had started prep.
And again, I started to see this change in the system where they were taking primary school trained teachers and putting them into prep. It was like they were shifting towards even more structure. And so, and then what I started to see too, was this whole diagnosis approach, like, we need to get these kids diagnosed early, get them connecting with the right services, so that we can basically get rid of those problems that get in the way of our approach to teaching, so we can get better results.
And so at that time, I’d actually had my fourth son. I had just had my fourth son. And I remember having the interview with Blair’s prep teacher. And she was suggesting that I needed to take Blair to go and see an OT, an occupational therapist.
And I’m like, freaking out thinking, Oh my God, what have I missed? I’m just seeing this beautiful child. And she is seeing this child who can’t sit still on the carpet for a session. And me just having had my fourth child, just feeling really overwhelmed, self doubt through the roof. And thankful, thankfully, as I was going through that experience, I lent into really focusing on my child instead of what I was being told.
And I just started to, to really ground in that. But at the same time, we just continued to do what we were doing, because it still didn’t enter my mind. It wasn’t until Hayes, my second son, was moving into year two. And he had the most amazing teacher, as well as he was in a class of all of his friends. But I just started to see this light dim in him. And at the same time, Blair was in kindergarten, and he would pretty much cry every day.
The anxiety was through the roof. And I had this new baby. I had this baby, I had Blair in kindergarten, who was really struggling. And then Hayes in year two, who had all the conditions right, amazing teacher, friends, but was just completely unhappy.
That’s when I started to really look at other options, more so for Hayes, because I felt like back then, Blair was just kind of, I had this idea that he just needs to get used to the whole school thing. Anyway, so then come towards the end of year two for Hayes, I thought, okay, let’s try the Steiner school.
So we did that for a little bit, which was a massive ask, because it was like half an hour there, half an hour back. So it’s two hours of driving every day. And at that stage, my youngest was only two. And then I started to see that that was still sort of the same thing.
It was a different idea, but it was still an idea that was placed upon a child. And so then I started to explore the homeschooling route. And as I was exploring that, I came across the Living Joyfully podcast. And it just spoke so deeply to my heart that I just couldn’t look away. I listened to so many episodes. When something just really resonates with you, that it’s like, it just, you feel this whole weight lifted from your shoulders because it just feels so right. And so that’s what gave me the courage to really jump into homeschooling because I knew which direction I wanted to head.
And as far as being a teacher, does it help, did it help me or did it make things harder? It was kind of a little bit of both. It helped in terms of other people outside of my family going, oh yeah, that makes sense. You’re a teacher because they’re naturally thinking I’m doing school at home. And I often say to people, if I had those kinds of children who really resonated with that approach, that would make my job so much easier. Like, okay guys, let’s sit down and we’re going to do x, you know, I could do that really well, but that’s not why I moved to homeschooling.
I could see that environment did not work. It did not work for most of my children. And I could see that it did not work for a lot of children. And so, it took a lot of courage to go down this route because I didn’t know anyone who was doing it. I started to discover more families who were homeschooling, but very rarely did I come across a family that was unschooling. And so I kind of felt like I was doing something naughty.
Like I should have still been trying to do school at home. But for me, I’m like, if I was going to do that, my kids would be at school where all the other kids are because they loved the social aspect of school. But so far as whether it was easier or harder, it was kind of a little bit of both.
It was easy because I had the insights from my teaching experience. I also had the insights as a parent. I could see how the system was changing. I could see how it was moving from this really play-based approach, which I feel like even when I think about my own schooling experience, a lot of that was still play-based. And now I could see this shift towards more structure and more control. And we’ve got to box children in and identify all of these problems that really are not a problem if you have the right environment.
As far as the pressures were concerned, I didn’t really have that outside of my family and friends. And I think that kind of blindsided me a little bit because I thought my immediate family would really appreciate it, like, oh, okay, she’s got all the skills in the world. She’s a teacher.
I had been diving deep into the world of personal development and I feel like I’m an awesome parent. And so it makes sense that I’m going to have my kids at home with me and we live life together. But that was not the case.
My family found it really hard to understand and appreciate my decision purely because they couldn’t see outside of their own world of how that could be possible. And so as I became more and more grounded in myself and I started to unpack a lot of my own, I guess, my own conflicts with this way of doing things, it just became kind of irrelevant. I just was able to then build that stronger shell where I had compassion for other people’s ideas without feeling like I had to take them on. So yeah, I hope that answers that question.
PAM: Yeah. Yeah, I think that’s brilliant. It really does.
And I mean, it’s underneath all of your answers. It is so much of our work to do, right? Our own processing, there’s the word, processing our own experiences. Even you had talked specifically about that too, Erika, like looking back at our schooling now with this new lens. And because I feel like I did that too, kind of paint it over to make it a positive experience for myself while I was going through it. It’s like, oh yeah, rah, rah, I can do this, blah, blah, blah. And looking back, it’s like, oh, I put up with a lot of shit without even really realizing it at the time. So yeah, that’s very interesting.
ANNA: I was kind of struck too by your story, Jenna. So you’re talking before kindergarten, this kind of pre-program, they’re already making it this more structured academic. And we really see that here in the US too. It’s just earlier and earlier and earlier. Whereas I feel like back in the day, there wasn’t any of that until so much later. It was kind of fourth grade things kicked in.
And so you had this time of really just learning about yourself and how to be around other people and all of those things. And we really have lost that. So I thought that was interesting.
But yeah, I just love how each of you brought those insights from that time, but also just listening to your kids and seeing who is in front of you and listening to your heart. Because I really feel like all of you had, there’s just this call to be with your kids, this is so important. So I think that was really beautiful.
JEN: I was just going to say, on that note, Anna, we’ve also needed to appreciate that with this more structured approach that the education system is still moving towards, we need to understand the pressure that that puts on teachers.
ANNA: Yeah, absolutely.
JEN: There is no space for relationships. There is no space for connection. And so I appreciate where the system is trying to move towards, but it just puts so much pressure on so many layers within that, that it ends up just extracting all of the good pieces from the teaching profession. That again, like when anyone is in a stressful environment, no one is going to benefit from that.
And we see that time and time again, that teachers are under incredible stress, incredible pressure.
ANNA: Well, that whole system, right? I feel like that whole system is having this pressure of, we need these outcomes, so we’re going to put pressure on this system. But when you drill down to the individuals there, I mean, every teacher I know, again, has the biggest heart, right?
They’re there because they love kids. They love learning themselves. They want to be a part of something, like you said, Michelle, these foundational pieces of like, if we can reach these kids.
And so there’s just, there is so much heart there, but you see this incredible pressure coming from wherever, governments, larger community, whatever that puts such pressure that makes it this boiling point. And I think it’s the kids who suffer and really the teachers too in those systems. It’s so hard.
Okay. So my question is, it’s similar to what we’ve been talking about, but can you share any mindset shifts that have happened on your unschooling journey? Maybe shifts away from schoolish ideas or the way you thought it might be.
And I think we’re all, we talk about this a lot on the network, we’re all learning all the time, but just some of those shifts for you that have been like, oh, I thought it was going to be this way, but really, my kids have shown me another way. So I will go to Erika first.
ERIKA: Yes. I mean, there’s been so many, but I feel like one of the biggest things I had taken away from all of my schooling was that there is a right way for everything, one right way, at least a better path compared to a worse path or, different ideas like that.
And so I think that left me as an adult kind of trying to figure out what’s the best way to do this and what’s the right way to do this. What’s the best way, there’s got to be a correct way for me to parent and there’s got to be a right, best way for my kids to do X, Y, Z. And so that has been gigantic for my mindset to realize that there’s not a right way and that we can’t know. I think we’re promised a lot in school that if you do these things, you’ll get a good outcome.
And now I know that’s not true. And so I feel like that has taken a lot of pressure off of all of our individual decisions. It’s opened my eyes to the great lives that people are having that I would have judged as not a good life back when I was in school because they didn’t do it right, or I don’t know, it wasn’t prestigious enough or something like that. And so I would say that’s probably the biggest mindset shift. I also feel like I had kind of an immature view of the expectations of school being like making sense or being easy when I was younger, that now I don’t feel like that at all.
I understand deeply now that people are different. Back when I was in school, I had a lot of empathy and really cared about how other people were feeling and doing, but it didn’t make sense to me why they wouldn’t just do it though. Like, why don’t you just do the work and then it will be okay and you’ll stop getting yelled at and you’ll stop being in trouble and you’ll get good grades. I couldn’t quite wrap my head around that this is harder for some people than it is for others or that we have different strengths. And so that is something that I am so grateful that I know now, just how different people are and how different everyone’s experience of every single thing is from everyone else.
It’s been interesting if I ever do have a chance to talk with someone from my school days, how different our memories are of the same things. Something that stuck with me forever that shook me to my core at that time. I’ve had people be like, oh, I don’t remember that that happened. So really even back then everyone was having a completely different experience.
But I didn’t recognize that at that time, of course, because I was young. And so that’s something that as a parent, I think, and as an unschooler on this journey in particular, I think I’ve had a lot of space to dive into really questioning those things. And I’m so grateful.
ANNA: Yes, those are big ones! Okay, Jenna, I’ll go to you next.
JEN: Yeah, with mindset shifts, it’s almost hard to pinpoint what exactly they were once you’ve made the mindset shift, right? Sort of like, oh, what was my mindset like back then? And I think one of the biggest ones was moving from this mechanistic kind of approach to raising children.
And when I say mechanistic, I’m referring to if you’ve, well, I know you beautiful ladies have read it, because that’s how I discovered it. Alison Gopnik’s book, “The Gardener and the Carpenter.” This whole carpenter approach where you are trying to mold or build something specific. And so you’re making decisions based on, if I do this thing, then I’m going to get this outcome.
What that shifted to was really this gardener approach, which is really interesting, because we’re now as a family, we’re now going down the road of regenerative agriculture, so everything that I’m learning about regenerative agriculture, I’m looking at it through the lens of unschooling. And it’s really this whole idea of understanding the nature of things, understanding, what it really takes, it needs to start with observation, right?
You need to really take that step back and see the child in front of you, which is really impossible to do when you have that mechanistic kind of approach, that carpenter approach where you’re trying to mold them into something specific. I don’t believe that children are this blank slate for us to just do with what we like. I believe that every individual is their own person.
And like Erika demonstrated, two people can have the same kind of experience, but they experience it very differently. And so really moving towards this gardener approach, it’s all about creating the conditions that allows the nature of that thing to really bloom.
We see it in schools, the kinds of conditions that we create in the education system, how it really stifles a lot of children. I know you’ve spoken about it, Anna, that you work with a lot of adults who are in their forties, fifties, and are really just learning about themselves now because they’ve kind of lived this surface level life where they’ve done all the right things. They’ve followed the directions that well-intentioned people have been kind of steering them on, but feel out of alignment with the life that they’re living.
And so I think for me, one of the biggest blessings, and even though I would have my mom back in a heartbeat, losing my mom at such a young age helped me to see the depth of life. I started to question everything when that took place, that I started to really understand. I started to dive deep into what the meaning of life was. And so through going on this unschooling journey, like I said, I felt so called to it that I couldn’t not do it.
And that was really the birthplace of me making decisions from my heart and appreciating that children know how to do that best. They really know how to follow that inner voice within them. And from my perspective, coming from that really mechanistic approach to living life to this gardener approach has allowed me to see the magic that unfolds as we are living life.
Why would we want to set outcomes for other people? It just makes zero sense to me now that, like Erika said, I just feel so grateful that I have come across this way of living life, because there is just so much more connection. There’s so much more depth to the way we’re living our lives that no amount of planning could ever create that.
And it’s just like, why would I want to? There’s just so much magic that comes from being in the present moment and following what we’re drawn to in any given moment that, to me, curriculum just makes zero sense. And particularly in this day and age where the world is changing so rapidly, I always say to parents, like, what are we actually planning for?
What are we planning for when, I think I heard a statistic like by 2030, 85% of the jobs that will be around in 2030 don’t even exist. And it’s like, what are we planning for people? Whereas by really following what a child is interested in and being so in tune and present with where they’re at in that particular time, not worrying about what their reading ability is, or their writing ability is, or do they know how to do this, or how to solve this mathematical equation.
I’m seeing this now, with my youngest. I’ve really been on this pathway pretty much from the get go with him. And just seeing all of these skills just naturally organically evolve has been really beautiful. And he’s not, if he was to go into a school environment, which he has entertained and played with that idea, because this pathway is not about whether you go to school or not. It is so much more about what is that, what are those conditions that are really going to allow this child to be more of who they already are. And so he has gone back into the school system. And it just doesn’t make any sense, because it’s just this surface level stuff, filling this worksheet.
And I actually showed Leeton a couple of months ago, he was doing something, he was playing a computer game, and he needed to work out which V-Buck bundle he was going to purchase. And watching him navigate that, it was just like, oh my goodness. And then I, as a teacher, documented what that looks like, pen and paper form.
And then I said, mate, what you just did then, that’s what that looks like at school. It doesn’t make sense whatsoever that just filling in a worksheet is going to bring about that depth that you get when you learn things in context.
And so I think, from a parenting perspective, does it make sense to just know how to do something on a worksheet? Or does it make sense being able to solve problems as you’re encountering the problems in everyday life? And I think really every parent would agree that’s way more meaningful than filling in, showing that you know how to solve this mathematical problem through this teacher method that the teacher has delivered.
And even my eldest son, who has been at school for the most time, and did pretty well at school, then started his electrical trade, had to do an early entry exam where they had to do a numeracy and a mathematical one. And he even said, he’s like, mom, I’ll be lucky if I got, he was kind of being smart about it. He’s like, I’d be lucky if I got zero.
I’ve learned all of these things, but do you think I could remember how to do it? And it’s like, yeah, mate, because when we don’t learn things in context, we don’t grow the depth. And going back to what I was saying with the gardener and the carpenter, now understanding more about regenerative agriculture, it’s about what’s happening beneath the surface that drives what happens above the surface.
And so that’s where my mindset has shifted probably the most is understanding that when we learn things in context, we’re actively learning them. We’re growing those roots that allow us to then take those concepts and apply them in all different contexts. And so, I often talk about this whole idea of, well, most people in my world drive a car, but I guarantee hardly any of them know how the engine works.
Like we know how to drive a car, but we don’t need to know all of the intricacies of how the engine works to actually be able to drive that car. What I feel education is trying to do, it’s trying to really teach all of the intricate pieces, whether they’re related or relevant to what the learner is interested in or not. And so I just feel like we lose, we lose the context, right?
ANNA: We lose that context.
JEN: Yeah. We really do lose the context and we get bogged down in all of this detail. But when you think about how we learned to walk and talk, no one sat there and said, right, okay, now you’re going to put this leg forward.
We didn’t explicitly teach that. And somehow we get this idea that once we hit the age of five and even earlier now, everything needs to be explicitly taught. And it’s like, no, everything is implicitly taught.
And this is the thing about even going back to the creatures. Even going back to that gardener and carpenter approach. When we’re taking a carpenter approach and we think about how we want our children to be, but the beautiful thing is we don’t need to do anything to our children. We just need to be it ourselves. And we see it, we see it in our children.
They’ll do something. And I’m like, oh man, I used to do that like early in my parenting days. And I’m like, oh man, that’s coming back to bite me in the bum now. They learn so much more unconsciously than what they do consciously. But yeah, I feel like I’ve gone off on a bit of a tangent there.
ANNA: That’s okay. I really appreciate it. Because all of those things are wrapped together, right? All those ideas and all those are the shifts that this journey teaches us. That is part of our implicit learning, right? Of just being able to be there and be a part of it. So yeah, I love that. But I’ll go to you, Michelle, and see what your thoughts are about that.
MICHELLE: So as I was listening to her, I was thinking about how a lot of my thoughts and chewing on these questions were similar. Like the gardener situation, I’ve been thinking about children, my children in particular, whether it’s about flowers or animals, the environment mattering very much. And so for example, different flowers, obviously they need different environments to thrive.
With animals, I view it in a sense of how much is the school environment asking a tiger to swim or, I don’t know how well tigers swim actually, but okay, have the fish climb the tree, right? Yeah. That I think that’s what school is actually doing in a lot of senses is trying to take a child who, if left to the beauty of exploring the world in the safety of their home with their parents and family, that they would be able to thrive and blossom.
It makes me upset that so many children get labeled in certain negative ways that they think something’s wrong with them, instead of recognizing that it’s the adults that are trying to fit them into a particular box that is never going to work for them. Even as an adult, they might struggle and as an adult, still trying to fit into that box and everything. So I don’t know if this mindset shift per se, but something that does bother me is the use of the word behind.
I feel like it’s not a helpful term to say that a child is behind. Behind who? Behind what?
That’s not helpful for the child. It might be helpful in your system and such. But if the whole idea is to nurture and teach children and help them to learn and enjoy learning, critical thinking, all the things that schools want to put out as, oh, we’re helping them to be critical thinkers and things like that.
But then the way that you’re going about instructing them doesn’t work. It doesn’t fit together because you want them to conform. And I just think that, well, I wrote down, it’s sad to have kids jumping through hoops.
I know from my own experience of being a child and wanting to get good grades. That was so important to me was getting those good grades. And I felt like as I got older, I didn’t learn anything. I just was really good at regurgitation.
And then I got the golden stars and everything for that. But as far as my actual understanding of things, the way I view things now is mastery and enjoyment are available to us. So to learn something because you want to be able to do a thing, that’s the reason why you learn.
So when people, teachers, parents, whatever, want kids to learn by a certain age, learn how to read by a certain age, it’s for their purposes. It’s not for the child to be able to enjoy what comes from being able to read. All five of my children taught themselves to read at different ages in different ways, but they were just in an environment with their parents, their extended family. There’s so much around us that how can you not in a sense take it in. You’re just going to be able to eventually understand. It clicks at different times. One day you couldn’t as an 11 year old you just haven’t gotten it yet. And then all of a sudden, you’re reading big long sentences. And we have so many homeschooling, unschooling stories of this.
It just really makes me sad for kids that are stuck in the system that have those labels. But also the fact of just kids being focused on grades, what comes from that, whether the teachers or the adults realize it or not, is the question, will it be on the test? And so then, if it’s not on the test, I don’t care about it. Why would I spend my mental energy? I could be doing other things with my life.
It makes the learning not enjoyable. You’re just regurgitating and missing all of the beauty and wonder of being able to learn about anything you want. I mean, the world that we live in now, as far as the access that we have to the information and school is like a fake world.
It’s an imitation. I remember when I was in third grade, my teacher set up a whole big portion of the room that was a store. And we had a cash register and we could buy things. But at the end of the day, that’s fake money. That’s, it’s not real money. It’s not real world learning about, budgeting or whatever.
I feel like because of who I am that all these mindset shifts may have happened just naturally anyways, but definitely being on the unschooling journey. I don’t even know how to end that sentence, but yeah it’s part of it.
ANNA: But just tuning in with your kids. You just really brought those things that were deep inside of you to the surface. Because I think that’s the beauty of our kids just really showing us these things that I think we have inherently known. But a lot of us that went through that system, it’s kind of been pushed down. And something you said reminded me, do you, Pam, do you remember Animal School? I’m going to try to find it.
It’s an old video. I feel like it’s probably been 15 or 20 years. Maybe it’s still out there, but it’s this exact thing about what you’re talking about. And it just brings you to tears. The fish is at school and he has to stay out because he doesn’t know how to climb the tree, but the monkey gets to go climb the tree and then he has to stop that to learn how to swim. And, oh my gosh, recognizing that these environments don’t mean anything.
And I think that’s what I love about when people start questioning is because we just don’t question it, right? We don’t question, does this make the most sense? Is this the easiest way or the best way or the most efficient way even to learn about something?
And so I think it’s cool when you open that up, because again, I think so many people in that environment, they want that. And they have a lot of constraints around what that can look like. And so when we have the privilege and the ability to be able to try different things. For kids to really guide their own learning, find their ways. It can be really beautiful.
PAM: Yeah. And I think for me, through this whole conversation, really what shines for me as one of the big differences is, and you alluded to it, Michelle, is the, how in the system we come to put value on learning that happens there over all the other learning. Why can’t I learn while I do this other thing that I love, at which I’m learning a ton. So for me, I feel like you’ve been able to see within your lives and within the system, just the huge difference in how one just defines learning and the fact that, okay, not even define how we value, that idea that there is learning that is more valuable.
There’s learning more valuable to the system for the system’s reasons, but not to the individual, right? Things that are important to them in the moment are just beautiful learning experiences.
Well, thank you all so much for joining us. It’s been such an interesting conversation. I have loved how much you guys have thought about this and processed it, and I really appreciate you sharing with us.
And we invite everyone listening to join us in the Living Joyfully Network to continue the conversation with all of us. It is a warm and welcoming online community of like-hearted parents. It’s a nonjudgmental space where you can explore these more unconventional ideas about learning and parenting and these wonderful gardener and carpenter metaphors, and what they just can look like day to day in your family, because as Erika said, people are different.
Your family’s different from our family’s. Your child’s different from a sibling or from another family’s child, but that doesn’t mean we have to twist these ideas, right? They fit for individuals, for people, just as the human beings they are.
Anyway, your first month is free so that you can get a sense of whether the community is a good fit for you, and we are very excited to welcome you. To learn more and join us, just follow the link in the show notes or go to livingjoyfully.ca and choose Network in the menu up top. Wishing everyone a lovely day.
Thanks so much, everyone. Thank you. We appreciate you joining us.
EU417: On the Journey with Julia Triman
Sep 10, 2026
We’re back with another On the Journey episode! Pam, Anna, and Erika had fun connecting with Living Joyfully Network member Julia Triman. Julia was on the podcast with Pam back in 2021, when she talked about her unschooling stories. It was really cool to hear how things have changed and how they’ve stayed the same in her family of four.
Julia shared about her family’s latest passions and what has surprised her the most about her unschooling journey. She also talked about her interest in quilting, how she followed the threads of her new interest, how it grew into a business, and how it all ties into the paradigm shifts she’s made through unschooling. It was a really inspiring conversation and we hope it resonates with you!
We invite you to join us in the Living Joyfully Network, a warm and welcoming online community of like-hearted parents. It’s a non-judgmental space where you can steep in these unconventional ideas around parenting, relationships, and learning, and explore what they might look like day-to-day in your uniquely wonderful family. We offer a free month trial so you can see if it’s a good fit for you. Click here to join us.
Sign up to our mailing list on Substack to receive our email newsletters as well as new articles about learning, parenting, and so much more!
Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about exploring unschooling and navigating relationships.
EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
ERIKA: Hello, everyone! I am Erika Ellis from Living Joyfully. And I’m joined by my co hosts, Anna Brown and Pam Laricchia, as well as our special guest today, Julia Triman. Hello to you all.
I’m very excited that we get to talk with Julia today. I met her right when I joined the Living Joyfully Network in 2020. And I’ve had so much fun connecting with her over the years. Julia was also on the podcast back in February 2021, when her kids were just three and five. I encourage everyone to check out episode 264 if you would like to hear more about her unschooling journey.
And we can’t wait to hear an update five and a half years later. So to get us started, Julia, can you tell us a little bit about you and your family and what everyone’s interested in right now?
JULIA: Definitely. And I’m so excited to be back. This is really fun.
So, we are similar to what we were five years ago. We still live in Frederick, Maryland in the US. We’re not terribly far from Washington, DC. And we’re still a family of four humans and two cats. Our cats are getting a little older. They’re aging a bit, but they’re still very much part of the family every day. So as far as what we’re interested in, I’m going in the same order I went the last time.
Starting with Dan. Dan and I have been together for many years. And he loves being outside, trail running, open water swimming and biking. He is a triathlete and he also does each of those activities by themselves. He absolutely loves to read in his spare time. One of the things I love is he’ll just go, so I’m a library person. When I go I want this very specific book and I get the hold for that specific book. Dan is a browser. So he’ll go to the library and he will come home with a backpack completely full of books.
But for me, it’s a thrill because then I get to see each book and see all the things that he found, all these little treasures that he’s interested in. And the last important thing to note is Dan absolutely loves good food. He likes cooking and also eating and finding delicious tasty foods to eat. Going to our farmer’s market is another personal hobby of his.
Cody, which is kind of amazing to even say this out loud. But Cody is 11 now. And he right now I would say is very into animation, both watching different animated shows and also making his own animation. He’s also still very into music. And the biggest game he’s playing right now is called Terraria. And he and a friend have been working through that quite a bit in the last couple weeks and really enjoying that game.
And Nora is eight. So she’s eight at the time that we’re recording this, but she is very soon gonna be nine. So by the time it comes out, she will be nine. Her absolute biggest thing she’s into now is connecting and playing with her friends 100%. She also loves and she has for her whole life, like creating and making things. And right now that’s investing a lot of time in beading and also very recently bedazzling. That’s the newest most exciting thing that’s happening on our porch these days.
But she also combines those things. She likes making things to gift to her friends. That is probably her top occupation the last week or two or three is just using these things that she loves to create and gifting them to friends. It’s just a big thing for her right now.
And then the last thing I wanted to say about Nora, she also has recently really been enjoying when we travel or go on a day trip, anytime we’re exploring or seeing something new. She’s very into that these days. And when we do travel and stay at a vacation home or a hotel, she just loves every single one from the moment we walk in the door, she just loves exploring a new place to live in a way.
And so that’s just been a really fun thing that I would say more recent than maybe the last time we chatted. So the three of us are also deep into the Percy Jackson book series right now and all three of us are loving it. One of them will say we need to read a lot tonight. We need extra time because we’ve got a lot to get through.
And I’m excited, we’ve decided we’re going to do book one, season one, book two, season two. There’s a series I think on maybe Disney plus that we haven’t watched yet, but we’re going to do that soon too.
So, I looked back and I was thinking about it. As for me, I don’t think I was a quilter. The last time we recorded a podcast which, just like the kids’ ages, is mind blowing to think about because quilting has just become such a big part of my life now. And I’ll talk a little bit more about that later. But I absolutely love quilting. And what it’s become for me now is a creative outlet, a way of expressing myself artistically and creatively. But I’ve also very recently become a quilting teacher.
And so one of my hobbies these days is coming up with new creative quilting workshops, just like how can I come at it from a different angle, and a different topic. I just get a little zing of a thrill just making up new quilting workshops. And I do have at least a few other things I enjoy besides quilting. Hiking and yoga are still really big.
And I’ve been doing a lot of reading lately about the philosophy of creativity, which kind of stems from my quilting and art interest, but it’s also a separate passion or interest.
The last thing about us is we’re also joining our first ever homeschool co-op this fall, which is something I’ve always kind of been curious about. And I’m excited that the timing and the co-op we’re going to try just hit everyone at just the right moment. I’m excited to just see what that might be like for all of us to have like a regular group that we’re meeting up with every week.
ERIKA: Yeah, that was awesome. I’m so excited hearing all the things and all the things that have changed. And just picturing all that you’ve gotten to do since we talked to you last time. I just feel like that’s really cool. And that you could have such a big part of your life as quilting, in such a short period. We never really know where our journeys will take us. But yeah, that’s super inspiring.
ANNA: Yeah, that’s what struck me about the quilting too. I’m thinking, oh my gosh, we may not even know what’s going to be our main passion five years from now. And that’s the same for kids too, right? There may not be a well worn mapped path of how we get there. Things just show up. That really struck me too. It’s amazing.
PAM: It is. I had fun. I tried my hand at Terraria as well.
It was just fun to hear and have an idea of how much they’re figuring out as they’re working their way through it. I think that is super cool. That’s why I love hearing snapshots. And then snapshots from the same family over time. Because yes, unschooling kids have a wide range of interests.
And also an unschooling child can often have a wide range of interests. And I don’t want to leave out the ones who have a lifelong passion about something, but the window changes over time, and the different ways they approach it, the different ways that they’re diving in because a passion can just be a window to so many different things.
JULIA: It’s always so fascinating to hear that. And that’s funny that you mentioned those two things right next to each other, because we were having a conversation recently about Cody’s interest in Terraria and how he and his friend had tried the game. I don’t know if it was a couple of months ago, maybe even a year ago, and it didn’t really click at that time.
And so some period of time later, it is that window. It is just the right time for several reasons. And it’s fascinating for both of them right at the same time. So that’s been really cool to talk with him about, sometimes you might try a game and maybe it is really interesting, but it’s just not the fit for that time.
PAM: Mm hmm. And sometimes you’ll see games or any interest, but just using games as an example, how something will click and you’ll play for a while and that was really cool. And then you move on. And then you’ll find it’s circling back a few months, a few years later, and there’s a completely different aspect. And that’s what they’re diving into and exploring. So many games are rich in that way that they don’t have just one thing, especially a game like Terraria. It’s very much a sandbox.
JULIA: It’s got so many different aspects you can play with. It has such a unique style too. We were talking recently, or I was sharing rather about how there’s almost a retro, like it looks if you just look superficially at the gameplay and the style of the game, it definitely looks like an older game, maybe from when I was a kid even, but then there are some elements they throw in that are very much of the sort of 2026, or it wasn’t made in 2026. But you know what I mean.
The era that it was made, which was not in the early 90s. So anyway, it’s just interesting how each game we play and how there’s so much to each one. We can have all these rich conversations about all these different aspects of every single game that they might play. I love it.
PAM: I know, I love it. And that’s one of the things with unschooling we talk so much about, is that when we engage with them, in whatever it is that they’re interested in and playing, we’re not just saying, oh, they’re playing a game, right? We just know so much more.
And we can then have those rich conversations. And that’s where we see and just learn so much more about them and see what is catching their interest right now, which bit of it and then we can make their world richer. Anyway, that is beautiful.
I love that piece. And it kind of leads nicely into our next question, which is, we’re just very curious to hear with this window now that we’ve had more than five years since you’ve been on here speaking about things. What has surprised you as to how things have shifted and changed what your unschooling looks like nowadays? I would just love to hear your perspective on that.
JULIA: So I just love this question so much, because I maybe had a different thought when I first saw the question. And then as I sort of pondered it more, so much started coming out in my mind and from my experience. So my first response, and this was my gut instinct was, well, everything is different. And everything is the same. It looks nothing like it did. And it also is exactly like it was.
Which is a non answer, but my initial thought. So, as Erika mentioned, the last time we recorded, the kids were three and five, so quite a bit younger. And when I was thinking back, I mean, I was in the thick of big sensory play. I would say I was very physically responsive, physically present with the kids, almost every minute of the day.
Very hands on, lots of exploration, lots of creation and destruction and huge messes and just like playing together all day every day. Now, we’re still together, we’re still connected. But it is really different the ways that we connect.
So how I would describe it is my involvement and interactions with the kids these days are a lot more cerebral. And I think that probably is tracking their individual development and their development as humans, in terms of how they want to relate and the types of topics we might get into. But I was thinking about it.
And I think I maybe oversimplified what I do at first. I was like, all right, Julia, I’m doing more than that. So the big thing I would say I’m doing is listening. And I want to talk a little more about that.
But I was like, you’re doing more than that. So now I would say I remember talking with you, Pam, about how they really helped me focus on the present moment. And they absolutely still do.
But we’re also a lot more future focus these days in certain aspects. I will do a lot of work to schedule meetups with friends, schedule activities, coordinate and plan these logistics. Whereas before, we spent a lot of time at home. And we might go out once a week to do some big adventure.
Now it’s like, at least one of the kids would prefer that we be out of the house every single day doing something. So it’s a lot. That’s a big part of what I’m doing now is listening and then responding to those requests. A lot of sourcing and finding materials and technical things.
But what I remember when they were younger is it would be Julia figuring it all out myself. And now it will be like, I want this thing, or I’m curious to explore this. And it’s very collaborative.
We’ll be together, either internet researching, going to the library, whatever the need might require. So that’s still a big part of what I’m doing. But it’s so much more in sync with each person, each kid, and exactly what they want, or what they’re looking for.
And we do a lot of just brainstorming. I want to do this thing, but I’m not sure how. And so just a lot of back and forth around, what will we want? How can we make this thing happen?
Or this even just like an outing, there’s an outing today that doesn’t really fit in the schedule. So it’s like, okay, well, let’s just sit together and think of how we can make it happen. Like, could we do it later at night? Could we do it tomorrow? Could this person come with us? So anyway, a lot of brainstorming, I would say definitely every day.
Also, we’re moving things around, and setting up new spaces and taking down old ones to kind of support as their interests grow and change. Maybe we need a chair here. Maybe we need a whole room switched.
Whereas before it felt like maybe an open play space where just everything happened all the time. But now their needs are getting more specific, and their interests are getting more specific. So they’re maybe wanting a desk for some purpose, maybe needing a dedicated place for a certain type of art creation.
And sometimes, they still invite me to play games with them or create things. Sometimes Nora will want to show me, she’ll want to kind of help me understand how to make a particular beaded project. So she will give me a little cup with what do you call it? A kit, she calls it a kit.
So I’ll have my kit with the beads that I need to make the thing. And then she walks me through it step by step, which is also so interesting, being a sort of arts and craft teacher. And then just experiencing that through a different lens with her is extremely fun.
So yeah, I was gonna say about the last piece I wanted to share was just about when I say listening, what do I mean by that? Because obviously, or not obviously, but in my experience with them, listening is what I always wanted to do from the very beginning. And maybe it wasn’t always listening to lots of words, but listening to who they are and what they want to do.
And I don’t know if it surprised me. But it really has changed, how and what I’m listening for. So they might work on something like an animation or an art project, and then they want to show or share that with me.
Or they might do something on their own or with a friend. And then they want to, at length, tell me about things about it, just verbally explain, this is what happened. These were all the pieces, maybe even show me something on YouTube, it looked like this.
And these conversations, again, we’ve had conversations their whole lives, but they are just becoming so much deeper, and rich and varied. And I just am learning so much from them every day, they ask so many challenging questions and have really deep insights. And as we were reviewing for this, I have notes that I’m occasionally glancing at to make sure I’m staying on task, which I’ve already kind of gotten off task once or twice.
But as we were reviewing this, one of the things the kids told me was there were just a few words that didn’t resonate with them. And actually, the word resonate was something that I needed to explain. But in explaining to one of them, what I meant by the word insights, it was so fascinating.
And it was, I think, just a perfect example of what I’m trying to explain. They’ll come with a question, what do you mean by insight? What does that mean in this context? And then I was explaining, well, you’ll ask a question, or we’ll be talking about a topic.
And then something new is revealed that maybe neither of us knew before, or one of us, one of the four of us in our family will know something the others didn’t. And so that gives us new information. So it’s just like the coolest thing to be learning more about humanity and language and all of these things, with just the most, sometimes they’re very simple questions, but then it gets really deep.
But the other piece I will say about listening, is I’m also challenged in a lot of new ways that I wasn’t before. And I mean, I think as a parent, there are challenges always along the way. And I don’t necessarily mean challenge in a negative way.
But they question what I do a lot more. And they’re interrogating my opinions. And they happily let me know when something I say or do doesn’t resonate.
Which I think, again, you know, being nine and 11, I think it’s pretty common from what I understand from other parents that I know. So yeah, I feel like I’ve probably covered most of what I want to say about that. But listening for those, I’ll call them critiques, and understanding why the things I do or say, may not resonate.
I feel like that’s kind of one of the biggest learning and growth moments for me right now.
PAM: I love that one, Julia. Yes, I love that you focused on listening and how that is changing over the years. And absolutely, that shift in the depth of the conversations. But also it’s so fascinating and there’s definitely work to not take feedback like personally, maybe words we use or things we’re sharing or things we’re choosing to do, like there, you use the word critique, information about their perspective.
And it’s so fascinating, if you can bigger picture that rather than taking it as a knock on who you are as a human being. It’s really telling you so much about them, isn’t it? It’s like, oh, they’re noticing this.
Now, this is something that they really didn’t see happening. It was just like part of the background of the day, part of the background of another person. But it is so fascinating to see the pieces that they start to notice when they start to notice. And, just what they as a human being are thinking, how they’re seeing it, what that it really is, It’s so helpful in seeing through their eyes and the lens of the particular action or words or whatever, and how they’re seeing it.
I remember a long time ago, Lissy had a couple of words like that. She liked to say show, not concert. We had conversations about it, and what that meant to her. And then she didn’t like if people talked about kids going through a “phase”, they’re going through this phase, because if you call it a phase that presupposes that there’s an end to it. And for her, she felt like don’t call it a phase when I’m deep in the middle of it, because maybe I’ll be this way forever.
And so it’s just so fascinating to have those conversations rather than feel defensive about it. Or thinking, I have to change, there’s something wrong with me.
No, to actually have those conversations. Of course, you try to use the language that resonates for them as well in the moment. But now when you understand the perspective, it’s so much about them. And it’s all about them, and how they’re seeing things. But as a family, and as a relationship that we want to develop, and keep connected and trusting, to learn that and work with that, I think it’s just beautiful. So I love that you brought that up.
ERIKA: I totally love that, too. And I thought challenging or challenge is such a good word for it because sometimes it can feel hard for me when it’s like, but this is how we’ve always interacted, or I’ve always said that, or you’ve always liked that, or, those kind of feelings of, I thought I knew you. And now you’re telling me that you’re different.
But it happens so much now that I’m used to, that’s just the new normal is they’re different. And they’re going to tell me about the things that are working and not working for them right now. And it’s not how it used to be, and so to not take that personally, and really see it as kind of a positive challenge, like a way that we can all grow together in our conversations, I think has been really cool.
And right, I can totally imagine how much has shifted in the way you communicate with them over these really important developmental years.
ANNA: Yes, so much. And I love the don’t take it personally piece because that’s huge. But what that allows is what I love. I get lots of insights into Julia’s process and things because we’re close, but I love what you’re describing because I think it helps people see how these conversations really just flow in our natural day to day. That’s not resonating for me. Okay, let’s figure out something else. Or, hey, I’d like to do this.
There’s such an openness about it. And I think we can get kind of stuck in defensive postures or in thinking there has to be one way. We’re speeding through, there’s the sense of urgency, whatever things kind of stop us from giving things that space. I think you’re really just very beautiful in allowing the space. And that doesn’t mean that there aren’t bumps, right, that sometimes that’s hard, or we are pushed up against timeframes and deadlines.
But when we cultivate that sense of openness, and hey, we’re going to talk about this, and we’re going to have space for this. And we’re going to be aware and watch for those other nonverbal cues. It really changes the energy of those experiences. And I think that you’ve just really beautifully explained that.
ERIKA: I think it’s giving them a chance to be someone different, to grow.
JULIA: And I would say, it’s doing the exact same thing for me. Because while I totally agree, it’s helping me see through their eyes. It also in a really powerful way, at times is revealing to me, or I wrote down that they’re catching me in my stories.
And in my tapes that are in my head, even just this is something so simple. But the other day, one of the kids asked, Why do you say my dear, why do you say, well, I love you? Blah, blah, blah, blah, my dear.
And I was like, Oh, I think it’s probably because that’s what grandma always said to me. It’s not something that I think a lot about. And it’s nothing personal.
That’s another thing is there was a time within this stretch of time since we’d last chatted, that one of the kids was clear that they did not want me to use any of the nicknames that I was using for them anymore. And we’ll just say for those who don’t know me that I am affectionate and effusive to a fault. And this child had probably more nicknames than any child has ever had.
So that was really a process for me. And I remember telling them at the time, I’m committed to this, I’m going to mess up, I’m going to make mistakes. But it didn’t take terribly long until I wasn’t using the nicknames anymore. But related to the my dear piece, that was just one little nugget that I was like, Oh, I have these tapes in my head, these stories, these ways that I think that are so ingrained, or the ways that I speak even, that are so ingrained in the way that I am as a person.
And we’ve talked a little bit in the network about, maybe questioning that. How strongly do I want to hold on to the story of what Julia is, how she speaks, how she’s effusively affectionate, like all those things like. So these encounters with them, and these things that have come up, have really helped me see the ways in which I might reevaluate that for myself. And that applies to so many other interactions with people too, not just with my kids, but it starts to take me in new directions.
To just look at it with a different lens, or look a little closer at my interactions. This is relevant to a conversation Anna and I have been having recently about listening, like the different ways that we might listen when someone’s talking. I have that choice, I can make a choice to use a different style when I’m listening to Dan, for example. So anyway, it’s just really interesting.
ANNA: It’s like catching us on the autopilot stuff, right? Because I think we and it’s partly just our brain trying to be efficient, right? We just get in these autopilot modes of speaking and doing and moving through the day.
But I love that about kids because they absolutely call us out on those things and make us question it. And that doesn’t even mean we have to throw it out. It’s more like, oh, am I intentionally choosing this? That’s what I loved about it. I felt that was a big thing for me. It brought so much more intention to everything I did, having kids around me and that we were having these conversations.
PAM: Yeah, exactly the intention, because what it does, just like you’re describing, Julia, which is brilliant, is that we just, it’s a moment for us to question ourselves, right? And like you said, it doesn’t, it’s not dependent on stopping doing something. It’s just shining a little light and like, oh, I get to think about that. Is it an automatic thing I do? Where did it come from? And in that processing, we might decide, ooh, I really love that part of me.
But then we can explain it to others. The explanation is not, oh, I’ve always done that. And then we can say, oh, where it came from, why we do it, how we feel when we do it, when we say it, and then that’s where you get those deep conversations, right?
And they say, oh, but I see it this way. And it feels like this for me. And then maybe we come up with a third thing that’s completely different, it’s not start or stop.
It’s just something different. Right? But that’s how you get to those deep conversations, right?
ERIKA: I feel like having the older kids is such a great way to learn about how people are different, because they’re going to tell us the things that I’m like, but this is so fun to me. And they could be like, it’s not to me. I don’t even understand that at all.
And so that just shows us even if we thought they were going to be just like us, they’re not. And then we can learn about the ways that people are different.
ANNA: I love that. Okay, so I’m going to go on to our next question. I’m excited about this one.
I have really enjoyed following your journey as you first started talking about, I want to do some work outside the home, what does that look like? And I love how you brought this unschooling mindset into it. And then just how it’s come from this deep, oh, I don’t know, just passion inside of you, how it’s grown.
And so I thought it’d be cool for you to just share a little bit about that journey and the process of doing it and where you are now. I’m just excited because it’s a cool story.
JULIA: I’m excited too, because I talk a lot about quilting and teaching quilting, but not usually to an unschooling audience. And so I was like, it’s so exciting to think about this conversation, because you all are just going to immediately know what I’m talking about for certain aspects of it. And I feel like my interest in quilting, so I am a deep diver, and I have been for my whole adult life, as long as I can remember.
But I really feel like, let’s say it was five years before I started quilting with the kids. Having young kids absolutely influenced kind of like the permission that maybe I gave myself to fully dive into this interest in quilting. And it wasn’t really super logical. I wasn’t like, well, now I’m giving you permission, Julia.
It was like, well, I started one project and just felt so good. It was just like, some people in the world probably do just make one quilt, but most quilters you talk to, you make one and you just don’t stop, because it’s just so satisfying and fun. There’s a mindfulness aspect to it.
It’s meditative. It’s satisfying to just create something. And at the time they were so small, it was something that I could piece together that wasn’t going to be immediately torn apart.
So it was like, I have the ability to create and to make things. So I started out quilting mostly other people’s patterns. But over the course of a couple years, I really started moving towards more creative expression. But I wasn’t thinking at all. It was never like, I’m going to start quilting so that I can become a quilting teacher. That was never in my mind.
And I think the last time we recorded, Pam, I think I might have said something like, I couldn’t ever imagine teaching. I had been through this. I had completed my PhD and finished that and discovered unschooling at the same time.
And there was just this huge dissonance. I could not imagine continuing to stand in front of a classroom with a curriculum that perhaps not all of the students were enthusiastically consenting to for various reasons. So in my mind back in 2021, I couldn’t teach. I couldn’t see how I could do that. And now I’m a teacher. So it’s been the most amazing turnaround for me.
I feel like when I started teaching, it was 2025. And it started super small. And very similarly to my quilting journey, I asked a friend, hey, what would you think about me teaching a quilting class at your sewing studio? And the answer was yes. And I taught one workshop and it was over. It was like, this is amazing. I love this. What am I going to teach next?
Like I mentioned, coming up with new ideas for creative quilting workshops is a separate hobby, which is something that I absolutely love.
But from the very beginning, having all this experience living and learning collaboratively and consensually with the kids, I wasn’t imagining myself, a lot of quilting teachers, amazing quilting teachers will teach sort of a project or a particular skill. And the goal of the class might be to make that thing just as the instructor made it, which I have absolutely taken classes like that, loved them, they’re beautiful. But that wasn’t going to be the approach that I wanted to take as a teacher, because it just wouldn’t fit my sort of philosophy, I guess.
So from the beginning, I wanted my teaching to be open ended and allow for people to make their own choices and create their own things. I didn’t want to teach a project with answers that they had to figure out. I wanted each person to have the freedom to make what they wanted to.
So in my first couple workshops, I played with the structure and in inviting people in, often, you do need a hook, you need something like not just like, I’m going to teach you nothing. So sort of playing with that, finding a class or a workshop idea with some sort of broad idea. Like, for example, this summer, I taught a mini map quilt series.
So we’re all going to make a map quilt. But what each person’s map quilt will end up looking like is and was completely different. So, it’s been an interesting journey playing with how to create a class that people want to actually take that has things that are interesting, but also has so much freedom and flexibility.
So now that I’ve taught, I’m almost at about the year mark of having taught probably 12 to 15 different workshops. Now I’ve got this small group of students who just want more. And so at the end of a class or series, they’ll literally say, well, what are we going to do next?
And I’ll say, well, what do you want to learn? And so it’s this incredible dynamic now of I am creating new classes and series that they are specifically asking for. So it’s a really cool interchange in that sense.
But the ultimate example of this is something I’m calling Creative Quilting Studio. And this grew out of two of my students in the spring. Both wanted to work on their own original creative quilt ideas.
And so we were like, well, why don’t we just come together, just a few of us, and we’ll make this little class, Creative Quilting Studio, and I’ll just help you with your projects. It was fascinating how many other people then also joined to do things that I could never have imagined that they might need or want help with. So to me, Creative Quilting Studio is like the ultimate combination of my passions of unschooling and quilting because it’s an open studio style situation where each person comes in with a project in mind or a goal that they want to work on.
And I will sort of have one-on-one time with each of them, and then we all work sort of in a group. Everyone’s learning from each other’s projects. But it is so enriching, and I am loving the ability to have this class workshop situation that is truly collaborative and consensual with every single student.
And it’s low commitment, so they can either come for a single session or for multiple. And it’s fascinating. I think my favorite part about it is the challenge of, and this is true with the kids too, the challenge of every day, every session, I don’t know.
I don’t know what’s going to come up or what they’re going to bring. I do survey them the week before a session and say, hey, what do you think we’re going to work on? But sometimes they might come, and I’ve had this happen with a student, and say, I don’t feel like working on that today.
And I’m like, great, what should we do instead? Truly, whatever they want to work on is what we do. I’ve even had a situation where a student just wanted to talk about possible design ideas.
We just looked through a bunch of ideas they had, talked about technical issues and what they might consider. So it’s just so satisfying and interesting, and it’s, I think, the direction I’m hoping to head and just grow even more. I’m even curious about how I might do something like that online or digitally.
I’m not quite sure. It’s still very nascent. But it’s definitely hitting that sweet spot of just being the perfect combination of all these things that I’m loving.
ANNA: I love it so much, because I think, again, we have in our head this idea of what teacher and student means. We’re this and that. It’s this top-down, this authority. And I get why you were bucking against it as you were first discovering unschooling and seeing how it was to interact with your kids.
But then this is the thing, right? We can bring this lens, this mindset to everything we do. And I know how excited and energized your students get, because I think they can feel that energy too.
This difference of getting to tap into what they love, to not having to make it conform to someone else’s idea. And I know there’s times where you’re like, okay, I’ve not done that, but let’s figure out this. We can help you figure this out.
And that, again, it’s this empowerment that you give them and just this person that can be with you as you’re figuring something out. So I love that. And I love the idea of maybe figuring out a way to do it to a broader audience.
We’ll share how to get in touch with you on your website and your newsletter, because it shares these cool ideas about things. And so even if they aren’t local to Frederick, there’s going to be things that can grow from that. Because your passion for it is so infectious, and it just makes me excited.
Oh, and people that are watching this on YouTube can look behind me, and I have a beautiful quilt that was made by Julia for me. I have a triple spiral tattoo, and she hand-stitched the triple spiral in my favorite colors of green. So I’m glad that’s there, and I’m glad I noticed it.
ERIKA: Yeah, I imagine something really amazing about a group like that is that it’s so much easier to learn the exact thing that you need to know right now, rather than kind of trying to generalize on some other project, right? I mean, obviously, I could go to a craft workshop and learn what they teach. But if I already know 95% of that, you’re not getting the exact thing you need, where if you’re choosing the project you want to work on, and you know exactly that edge where you’re like, but I don’t know how to do this yet, and you can come in and do that. I think that’s so amazing. I just love that idea.
PAM: Yeah, that’s literally what we’re talking about with unschooling, right? That’s the idea beyond the curriculum. What am I super into right this moment, right?
And what am I trying to figure out right now? You are meeting them right where their brain is just thirsty to learn this one piece, and then the light bulb goes off. And even if that takes them back and forth and back and forth, and that’s where your expertise comes in, right?
And your openness to there’s no one right way to solve this problem. The openness, the way I explained that didn’t make sense to them. I’m going to try explaining it in a different way.
I’m going to try explaining it a third way. Oh, I’m going to show it and see if just physically seeing it unfold in front of them is helpful for them. So you can connect with them in the way that they can hear you. Back to the listening piece, right?
I think that is just so fascinating. And that’s how you manage to bring this whole new kind of unschooling lens on learning into this environment about something that you love.
That, for me, that’s just a huge difference. Because the people who are coming, yes, they’re coming with different things. But there’s like a shared interest. Whether it’s just the creativity aspect that you’re diving into right now, right? Is it the creativity that people are loving? Is it more about the quilts?
But back to when we were talking about video games, how many different aspects are, like, you were saying one wanted to talk about design ideas, and didn’t even want to pick up the tools and actually get started yet. There are so many aspects to the whole process of quilting as well. So being able to meet someone again, where they are in that moment is just brilliant.
JULIA: Now I’m thinking about it. It’s really helpful to reflect on it, how it emerged, because I have these amazing students who keep coming back. And they basically asked for something that looked like this.
If last August, when I first started, I said I want to make an unschooling quilting class. And this is what it’s going to look like. It wouldn’t have been responding to these particular students and their particular needs and interests.
It would have been Julia’s vision of what that might have looked like. And no one knew me, right? It wouldn’t have worked out, I don’t think.
I also don’t think I could have done this back. I mean, obviously, I wasn’t a quilter in 2021. But I don’t know, I think everything had to line up just at the right time.
Because when I imagine jumping right into something like this, or what it would have looked like if I had been like, I’m going to become a quilter and start teaching quilting classes right after I had been in academia for decades. It would have been different. I needed time, my brain needed that time. I needed all of these years of building trust with the kids and seeing how they learn, watching how they dive in. My mind is so totally shifted now into like, embracing a very different view on education and educational philosophy that, I just can’t credit the kids and my time with them enough for how I’m now sort of envisioning my professional life unfolding, which is really, really special.
ANNA: That’s so special.
ERIKA: Well, this has been so much fun. Thank you so much, Julia. And we hope everyone enjoyed our conversation and maybe had an aha moment or picked up some ideas to consider on your own unschooling journey.
And if you enjoy these kinds of conversations, I think you would love the Living Joyfully Network. It is such an amazing group of people connecting and having thoughtful conversations about all the things we encounter in our unschooling lives. And all four of us are there.
We invite you to check it out and see if it fits with our free month offer. You can find the link to the network in the show notes or you can visit livingjoyfully.ca and the link is right at the top of the homepage. So thank you for listening and thank you all for being here.
JULIA: This was awesome. Thanks for having me.
Thank you, Julia.
EU416: A Field Guide: Accepting the Value of All Experiences
Aug 27, 2026
We’re back with the fourth episode in our series in which we’re working our way through Pam’s book, The Unschooling Journey: A Field Guide.
Today, we’re continuing our exploration of the deschooling phase of the journey with stage eight: Accepting the Value of All Experiences. We’ve questioned our beliefs about learning and about parenting. Now we’re moving beyond judgement. As our understanding of this new world of unschooling grows, we are drawn to digging deeper. Using the lens of unschooling, we’re exploring what it means to be a human being living fully in the world, with all of the ups and downs.
We had a great time diving in. We hope you find this episode helpful on your unschooling journey!
We invite you to join us in the Living Joyfully Network, a warm and welcoming online community of like-hearted parents. It’s a non-judgmental space where you can steep in these unconventional ideas around parenting, relationships, and learning, and explore what they might look like day-to-day in your uniquely wonderful family. We offer a free month trial so you can see if it’s a good fit for you. Click here to join us.
Sign up to our mailing list on Substack to receive our email newsletters as well as new articles about learning, parenting, and so much more!
Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about exploring unschooling and navigating relationships.
EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
PAM: Hello, everyone. I’m Pam Laricchia from Living Joyfully. And I am joined today by my co-hosts Anna Brown and Erika Ellis.
ANNA, ERIKA: Hello.
PAM: And we are back with another episode in our A Field Guide series. We are working our way through my book, The Unschooling Journey: A Field Guide, which is framed around the hero’s journey and is a weave of myths, contemporary stories and tales from my own journey.
We are now deep in the deschooling phase. In the last episode of this series, episode 413, we dug into some of the popular conventional paradigms about parenting, and we found more truths buried there. And as we continue our journey on the road of trials, we’re exploring the idea of accepting the value of all experiences.
If you’re newer to unschooling, and this is your first time exploring these truths, you’re likely dancing with these ideas intellectually to understand what they mean and some of their further reaching implications. If you’ve been unschooling for a while and feel like you already intellectually embrace these ideas and have been bringing them into your family’s lives, now’s the time to peel back some more layers to build more connections and context around them, strengthening your web of understanding with your personal experiences, building your wisdom as you move towards believing them in your bones as your own truth.
Now we are well into the deschooling phase. In the last two stages, we challenged those conventional pieces of wisdom around learning, like embracing curiosity rather than following curriculum, and parenting, replacing control with connection as our relationship dynamic with our kids. These stages often have lots of twists and turns as we bring these ideas into life, life into our family, and see how things unfold, right?
Again, not about right or wrong. We’re gaining experience, we’re seeing how things happen. So this episode, which is stage eight of the journey, we’re exploring the idea of accepting the value of all experiences. In other words, we’re moving beyond judgment. Now here we go. As our understanding of this new world of unschooling grows, we are drawn to digging deeper.
Using the lens of unschooling, we’re exploring what it means to be a human being living fully in the world. So Joseph Campbell calls this stage the meeting with the goddess. So in myths and stories, the hero must be spiritually prepared to meet this revered goddess, the universal mother, who represents the whole cycle of life.
To meet her in her true form is to rise to her challenge and be able to contemplate the entire birth death cycle that she presents with equanimity with calmness and composure, the ups and the downs, the good and the bad, cosmic creation and destruction, to be able to hold both of these seemingly opposing ideas, opposites in your mind with comparable appreciation. So in the book, I shared that Kali from Hindu mythology is a great example of the kind of goddess you might meet in this stage. As a goddess of time, creation and destruction, she represents both the benevolence of a caring, comforting mother, and the fury of an aggressive punishing one, as well as the expanse of time that contains them both. So, when we look at Kali’s right side, we see good and on the left, we see bad. That’s what she represents. And when we are ready to grasp the truth that lies at the heart of this stage, we see her full nature, both. We see her in full. And we’ve been preparing to meet our Kali with all that we’ve learned so far on our unschooling journey. Like how on earth are we going to link those together?
Here we go. We started to see the connections play out between our new perspective on things like we talked about in the last Field Guide episode, like why quitting things isn’t bad, right? Why saying yes more to our kids isn’t bad. Why are kids seemingly doing nothing is not bad. We’ve noticed times when we didn’t stop our child from making a choice that we feared might go badly. And they went on to happily engage with the activity.
So by giving our days the time to unfold more naturally, we’ve seen new and interesting things take root in the wake of destruction and upset many times. From a fallen block tower springs a taller, sturdier one. From highly anticipated plans falling through emerges, say, a spontaneous trip to the park, or a cuddly movie day, which turns out to be just what was needed.
Without knowing it, we have been thoroughly preparing ourselves for this meeting. And for me, I think the key shift has been your mantra, Anna, there’s plenty of time. The trick was giving moments more time and space to unfold. That allowed me to see how seemingly good and bad moments actually weave together that they’re not like just separate single incidents. They’re not like these distinct events where I can tell you that like, oh, we had five good moments today and seven bad moments. So that was a losing day, or if they were the opposite, that was a winning day, right?
To see the fuller, bigger picture, see how this is our life and, and the good and bad were weaving together. But that block tower one is just something I remember, you know, one kid running up and knocking it over. And like just those pieces, think of your own stories in your own life. Think back to when you’ve seen those things go from, from bad something upsetting to working out well, and vice versa. It’s all so very interesting, I think.
ANNA: Yeah, it is. And I think Kali is such an interesting representation for this phase, because many people are very afraid to get Kali in a reading because they associate her with destruction. But yes, both pieces are there, creation and destruction.
And it fits here so well, because how I see that destruction part is really just a sweeping away of old paradigms, creating a clean slate, allowing us to build a stronger foundation when that tower of our ideas are knocked down, and a new framework to support where we are now with all of this new information that we’re taking in. And it really can’t be built on top of the old. We can take what we’ve learned with us. So it’s not that we’re leaving everything behind.
But letting go of the fear around letting go of the old and embracing a new paradigm allows us to fully open to all it can bring us. And a lot of discomfort comes, I think, in straddling the old and new, because we aren’t actually fully in either at that point. And releasing judgment was such a key part of my journey.
You know, in my 20s, I loved a good debate and was quite adept at it. And as I started to value connection over winning, I realized how disconnecting the judgment was. I will never know what’s best for another person, even my child. So any judgment of them or their actions actually just keeps me from learning about them, who they are, how they want to move through the world, what their priorities are.
And honestly, it keeps my own learning stagnant. If I’m so sure I know what’s best, how do I see a new way, a way that might serve me better in this moment where I am right now. And I love the tally piece that you mentioned because I think it’s a really slippery slope.
If we are focused on categorizing the day or the event as good or bad, we’re missing the nuance that exists in every day, every event, because there’s always going to be both, they exist together. And while our brain can like this idea of categorizing as a shortcut, it really takes us out of being present in each moment. And it can end up dictating our emotions around it.
So have we had a good week? Okay, then I can feel happy and feel good. I’m a great parent, we’ve done it this week. But then if this week has been bad, then there must be something wrong with me, and I should have done something differently.
That type of judgment and kind of surface level ranking just doesn’t serve us personally or relationally. And it can really keep us stuck in this yucky cycle, instead of learning and growing together. And so that is something to watch for that like, oh, this was good and so now this means X, you know, whereas again, I think the idea of plenty of time really does help just let things unfold, and not getting attached to those pieces, we just learn so much more.
ERIKA: Yes, I like this phase, because it really feels to me like having gained some perspective, and maybe some maturity, after making a whole lot of huge mental shifts and paradigm shifts we’ve been working through in the last few episodes. And so I just think life is so much more nuanced than there’s one right answer, or there’s one right way to do something. And I think we may absorb that message in school that there is a right answer or one right path.
But it’s so much more real and true to living life in this world to be in this gray area, there are infinite possibilities, there are infinite paths, we’re not sure how it’s going to play out. And so I feel a lot more grounded and safe when I have that perspective, and I’m not clinging so strongly to this is good, this is bad.
I also feel a lot more generous and nonjudgmental towards other people as well. Because I can recognize, we’re just all doing our best in each moment to meet our own needs and just figure out what’s going to work best for us. And we’re all different. And I don’t need to judge others. And I just feel like it’s a grounding place to be, when we get to this stage.
PAM: Yeah. Oh, I love that. Okay, so the next aspect we want to explore around the idea of accepting the value of all experiences is moving beyond this is good and bad. So in the book, I share a quote that’s usually attributed to Alexander Graham Bell. When one door closes, another opens. But we often look so long and so regretfully upon the closed door that we do not see the one which has opened for us.
I think that succinctly describes life before this encounter with the goddess, right? We don’t realize the connection between destruction and creation between good and bad on that continuum of time. So this is the wisdom that the stories of Kali and other cosmic mother goddesses are meant to convey, rather than being tossed around by the ups and downs of life, like that whole roller coaster image, we now see the value of and the connection between those moments.
So as we’ve been paying attention on our journey, giving things time and space to unfold, which you hear us talking about all the time on the podcast, we’ve soon experienced the cycle and had time to learn that trying to rush through the down times doesn’t work. We can’t pry open a door that doesn’t want to give. We’ve learned that doesn’t mean passively sitting back and waiting.
It means being attentive, just like from that quote, right? Maybe knocking on a door, wandering the hallway, noticing the door that’s slightly ajar, hearing the faint click of a doorknob being unlocked. Eventually, something happens and things move forward, maybe in unexpected ways.
But in my experience, often in more interesting ways than we had first imagined. That was us looking at that door, that’s where we thought we were going. That’s where we thought things were going to be. But when we there’s just so many more ways that life can unfold.
I actually really learned this more through observing my kids’ lives in action. So often, when I was able to stretch my comfort zones and follow them where they were eager to go, the door they wanted to go through, I saw them learning so much, both when things went well and when they didn’t. There’s that good/bad.
I was humbled by how often my initial predictions were just flat out wrong. Thank goodness I kept them to myself because I wasn’t ready quite yet to admit how often I was wrong. But without me clouding their experience with my judgment, they could more clearly and directly learn what was most valuable to them in the moment, because that’s where their mind was.
That’s where their whole body was. I want to be in this moment, and just see how it plays out. So as my wish to understand my children’s perspective, and choices grew, my need to judge them truly faded.
And with that, so did so many of our conflicts, and our trust in each other grew. And again, remember that not judging isn’t about giving in or giving up or saying do whatever you want, right? It’s about engaging more deeply but with openness. The image that helps me is beginner’s mind. What can I learn here? That’s what this stage is encouraging us to discover.
It’s about seeing the value of all aspects of life, moving through the bad moments with as much awareness as the good ones, not covering your eyes and trying to ignore them until they pass. Because, as you see, through all the ups and downs, all these moments are integral to our lives. They all mean something. They all help us learn something.
ERIKA: Yeah, that’s a huge shift when we can stop labeling things as good and bad. It’s just more complicated than that. And I think our judging tends to influence what happens next. And so I don’t, I certainly don’t want to label my day as a bad day, especially at the beginning, which I do hear people do that sometimes. Because a day has all kinds of moments in it. And we don’t know what’s going to happen next.
And by labeling it bad, I think we’re just setting ourselves up for well, now it is going to be bad because we said that. But we learned from it all. In some of the meditation courses I’ve participated in, I really came to understand and value that idea of equanimity.
It’s a power that we can cultivate, to be able to just witness the turbulent nature of life and still see the bigger picture. It feels like not getting swept up by every little thing that’s happening. And it helps keep me going and moving towards the things that I want.
Whereas if I am getting swept up, it makes it so I’m so overwhelmed that I can’t even face what’s happening or make decisions or move forward. And so I feel like if we can move away from judging ourselves, judging others, judging all the moments as good or bad, I think there’s just so much more potential and so many more possibilities in front of us. To me, it has a very spacious feeling.
ANNA: Yeah, I really like that visual, witnessing the turbulent nature of life, but not getting swept away. I think that therein lies that practice of equanimity and just presence. I feel like the categorizing that I mentioned earlier keeps us from really appreciating the nuances of all the experiences.
Each experience brings with it a wealth of knowledge and understanding about ourselves, about each other, about the world. And the idea of releasing good or bad always brings to mind for me the Taoist farmer story. I’ll post a better version in the show notes.
But the idea is that there’s a farmer who has a series of events happen to his family at each event, the village wants to weigh in with, Oh, what bad luck you’re having? Or Oh, what good luck you’re having? And each time the farmer answers maybe. His horse runs away, bad luck. Maybe. His horse returns with six more wild horses. Good luck. Maybe. His son breaks his leg on a new horse. Bad luck. Maybe. His son doesn’t have to go to war when all the other young men do. Good luck. Maybe. As the story unfolds, you see how something first appears is never the whole of the story.
And if we can step away from preconceived notions and judging everything as good or bad, it opens us to more nuances, to new paths, to new ideas. Even just bringing “maybe” into our mind when something happens can slow us down and help us widen our view. Because we get caught up with the quick snap judgment, and it creates this ripple that really narrows our focus, and keeps us from seeing the bigger picture.
And that’s the thing with good or bad, it is just this narrowing of the focus. And so if instead, I acknowledge that what is happening just is, I’m more open to seeing the opportunities for growth and learning, I’m more open to actually experiencing it. And I guess that’s a big piece for me, because judging really takes us out of the moment and puts us back into our head. We’re categorizing, this is a problem, this is not good, this is bad, end of story. But there’s no end to the story. Each bit of life leads to another and weaves into this larger tapestry.
And with openness and willingness, we can create this massive tapestry that keeps us learning and growing throughout our life. And once we understand that for ourselves, we can see that our kids are doing exactly the same. They are on their own unique journey, building their own unique, massive tapestry.
PAM: I love that piece. And the word maybe could be so helpful if you’re navigating this stage right now. And just put a little card that says maybe somewhere where you see it. It’s just a little reminder that judging something in that moment, maybe you’re right but maybe not. Let’s let things unfold.
Okay, so the next aspect we want to explore around the idea of accepting the value of all experiences is the epiphany moment. We’ve talked before about how we often understand things intellectually before we feel them as truth in our bones. And in the book, I liken the intellectual understanding as puzzle pieces we have floating around in our minds, right? They each make sense to us on an intuitive level, but they haven’t really quite solidly clicked into place.
So as you begin this stage of moving beyond judgment, you may not yet have enough puzzle pieces to grasp what this not judging thing might look like in the bigger picture. And then at some point, the piece appears that kind of changes everything. The moment that sparks this epiphany, as with so many other insights on our unschooling journey, truly might be quite ordinary. It doesn’t need to be a special puzzle piece.
It’s just the puzzle piece for you. This is the one, for some reason, that gives you the flash of insight. All of a sudden, you can see the picture you’re building, and how the pieces are going to fit together.
So, the naivete, it’s so easy to write, less so much to say. But this naive urge to judge something becomes clear, and our understanding of the value of all experiences, good, bad, otherwise, medium, whatever word you’re using, or words you’re using to judge things, rises out of the confusing free-for-all that we first envisioned at the thought of moving beyond. If we’re not judging things, everything is just, everything’s good then? What does that mean?
From this turning point, this epiphany, our perspective shifts. We stop desperately trying to avoid or escape bad moments. Understanding that they, while, absolutely not what we’ve hoped for, are just moments. And, as you often talk about, Anna, we grow to trust ourselves to handle whatever kind of moment comes our way.
A deeper sense of confidence begins to take root, as we more mindfully engage in all the moments of our days. And, we more clearly see our children living this trust and confidence. I think it’s something humans are born knowing. But, we lose track of it growing up when we’re immersed in judgment, shame, and fear. And those being used to control us. Going back to that last episode of Control and Connection. And, it hits us now. We’ve got this puzzle piece.
Life isn’t about trying to avoid the bad moments, so we can finally live our good lives. And, we’re just like, I want this good life. I want this good life. We have been living our full lives, our rich lives, all along.
ANNA: I think there’s just such a beautiful freedom in recognizing that life is going to contain it all. It’s not about optimizing. It isn’t something we can control. There is not one path that will lead to everything being perfect. I think, as the Buddhists would say, the suffering is in the attachment to that outcome. And so, to me, it really plays out.
If I’m gripping so tightly to control, thinking I can somehow make the right choice, and then everything will always be great, it feels so dysregulating when it doesn’t happen that way, when I’ve tried so hard, and then the mark has been missed. Again, that goal that we talked about a little bit earlier. If instead, I’m just open and curious, and greeting things as they come, be them obstacles or gifts, with the same open energy, I can stay regulated, and I can find the growth available to me in all of those areas, in both, in obstacles and the beautiful gifts of life.
And that’s where I got to the place that you mentioned. The epiphany for me was seeing how well we worked together, how we survived whatever came our way. We had tools to get through it, and that doesn’t take away the sting of disappointment or loss when it happens, because it still can sting. But our relationships were solid. Nothing felt shaky there. And from that foundation, the bumps felt more manageable.
So, instead of the acrobatics of trying to miss the bumps, my focus was on strengthening our connection and our communication, so that we could roll over the bumps together. That was something that I could actually influence. Attempting to stop the bumps never worked, no matter how hard I tried.
It’s outside of my control, and it ends up taking me out of the moment, and I’m actually not using the time or energy to strengthen my relationships. I’m over here juggling and trying to do something perfectly. And I think this can be really hard at first, though, because we really have been taught that there are answers, that things fit nicely into good and bad and right and wrong.
And so, when something so widely accepted, like school, isn’t working for your family, it can feel very intense. We become invested in finding the next right answer, but it’s not about that. Life is about nuance, growth, exploration.
It’s messier and more unpredictable than that. But again, I think once we embrace that and understand what we can control, which is basically just how we show up and who we are, there is a freedom, a release that happens. It opens you up to see the beauty in all of it, the beauty and the value in all experiences.
So, back to the theme.
ERIKA: I love that, and I know it feels hard sometimes, because it really does feel like maybe I can control everything, and then I’ll know how it’s going to turn out, and it’ll all turn out perfectly. But life shows me that it doesn’t work like that. But that’s not failing. That’s just life. And so, I can connect with other people, because we all are sharing this human experience of all of these parts. Life has it all.
And if someone in my life seems unable to see that for themselves, I know that’s just where they are on their own journey. I don’t have to pull them to where I am. Life has it all, the ups and the downs, and we’re just going to roll with it.
If someone’s not ready for that, I can’t get them there. It’s one of those things that I think just has to click for us in time, and I guess that’s why we’re calling it the epiphany here. So, yeah, I love that.
PAM: It has to click for us. I love that. I love that.
And, okay, so this last aspect that we want to dive into is embracing the value of time. And just imagine, time is what we’ve been talking about to see how good and bad are actually linked together, and they don’t need to be judged. They’re things that happen.
They’re things that have happened, and this led to this and maybe to this. Anyway, I had mentioned earlier that I think the key shift for me in understanding this stage of the journey was really in your mantra, Anna, there’s plenty of time. This is the piece that I wanted to bring out because there’s two aspects of time for me that came to me.
One was giving moments more time and space to unfold. That’s what we’ve been talking about. Most often, we don’t need to solve moments, right? I don’t need to ride the high of good as long as I can, and I don’t need to fix the bad as fast as I can. That is just something that fades alongside the urge to judge them, that this is what comes with the epiphany. But the other was more time to ponder things.
There’s a deeper level of understanding that comes with continuing to poke and prod our thoughts, to look at our ideas from this way and that way, up close, far away, sideways. Giving myself that time and space allowed me to see how seemingly good and bad moments actually weave together. It’s just the up and down and in and out of playing with things.
It’s like, oh, it was so useful to me to recognize when I get stuck in something, right? I need to change how I’m looking at something. And truly, if you are persistent, you will reach deeper levels of understanding, moving from the comprehension, if this is kind of your first engagement with these kinds of ideas, that makes some sense to experience.
Then you see these ideas in action. So often for us, it’s seeing them in action with our kids, right? And then to the truth, you’ve seen them play out multiple times in multiple circumstances, and you’re starting to see how they might actually apply to you as well.
And this stage is just a great example of this. If discovering the truth around learning and parenting in the last two stages was akin to adding new landmarks to your map, this stage was about taking the time to explore them more fully, eventually revealing like the secluded trails that connect them. We also get our first taste of the fruits of this inner journey. Releasing that need to be constantly judging things is just so freeing.
I mean, the curiosity that bubbles up from that, it was just life changing for me. Time is a priceless and integral part of both our journey to understand and embrace unschooling, but also the practice of unschooling itself forevermore. We’ve gone from intellectually understanding that life encompasses good and bad moments to experiencing the learning about the world and about ourselves that is found in both kinds of moments, to embracing the truth that all moments, good, bad, and all manner in between moments have value in our lives.
We are learning through the ups and downs, through the good and bad. This is life or as Campbell describes it, which I thought was cool, the nature of being. Yeah, that lands for me.
ERIKA: That’s beautiful. I love that. I can definitely find myself clinging to time when things are feeling good, and just wishing it would slow down. But really the only way to slow down time that I’ve found is to get really present, and take note of all the things that are happening in this moment. There are all kinds of feelings, experiences, things to see, people to be with. And so I don’t typically wish away time even when things are hard.
I think it’s a human impulse to do that though, like I just wish this day was over. But I think my personality specifically tends to cling to time rather than hope it goes by faster. But I have found there’s plenty of time to be just such a soothing phrase.
It’s a reminder for me to just relax, let go of my intensity about finding that solution or getting to a certain place. I mean, even physically getting to a place, we have to get to whatever, get to the party on time. And I love how we all hear Anna’s voice in our minds with that reminder.
It really helps me move out of that kind of tunnel vision and to a more grounded place where I can see what’s actually in front of me and make decisions about what to do next. And even just taking a breath can be so helpful too, just to settle down my nervous system. There’s plenty of time. We’ve got this. And just let me be present in this moment.
ANNA: Yeah. Oh my goodness. How many times do we remind each other that we’ve got this during any given week and that there’s plenty of time?! It really does calm my nervous system and sometimes it feels cheesy to type or hear. But it also calms my nervous system every time because it’s true because we have a history of having gotten it.
And so I know we will keep doing it, but I do think it’s fun to think about time. It’s just such an interesting concept and it can drive so many feelings and behaviors, or I guess maybe more accurately our reactions and interplay with time drives the feelings and behavior, but understanding that helps us see the choice, right? So time can seem to be crawling and then it can fly by in a blink and can often feel out of our control.
But I like the pieces that have been pulled out, like the idea of giving space to a moment, not needing to rush in with solutions or move quickly through it. I think we do that sometimes because we don’t like to sit in discomfort. But that discomfort has messages for us.
It’s not a scary place. It can be a place of growth and we miss that if we’re rushing through it, just like we miss the joy present in those small moments, as well, if we’re always rushing ahead to the next thing. And the unfolding became such an important concept to me.
I was a planner. I still am, but with a lighter, more playful grip. Allowing moments and days to unfold, I started to see this organic flow that was always present, a flow I had really missed in my tightly controlled timelines.
And I started to feel a real difference in my body. The tightness that I was literally carrying as I was trying to plan and control all the things versus the softness, the openness in my body when we just allowed a day to unfold. And that learning could happen in a moment when I stopped talking and observed.
These things were not easy for me. That is why ‘there’s plenty of time’ is such an important mantra for me, because I could feel myself relax with that reminder. And it is not my natural state of being. I am wanting to do, do, do, maximize, go, do. There’s not enough time.
But boy, it really helps ground me. And then the part you mentioned, Pam, about time to ponder, that was also really critical. I had to slow down and trust in the time to find the deeper layers, to better understand myself and the people around me.
And it doesn’t happen overnight. It happens with an intentional commitment to take the time to feel the feelings, to dig into the layers, to understand the connections, the reactions, the context, the ideas that we’re holding on to. I don’t think you can grow, have growth without time to be in that space.
And so what I learned about myself was that my kind of go, go, tight control and planning was really me trying to outrun some past trauma pieces and things I didn’t want to look at about myself, and maybe even about the world and the things around me. And slowing down felt really scary. But I really allowed myself space to feel the feelings and understand how my patterns from childhood were showing up now.
And that was really the only way I could make changes and show up in new ways to be the person I wanted to be for my kids. So that shift is kind of what you’re talking about Pam, the ideas, they feel great, this kind of intellectual understanding. But it took me doing this slowed down work to really get to feel it in my bones and be able to act on it from my bones versus just this intellectual understanding.
PAM: Yeah. Oh, and just to wrap things up, as I was writing the book and really thinking about the phases. I could see how those three ideas came together. That’s why I love choosing Kali, here’s a goddess who is time, creation, and destruction, those three things good, bad and unfolding, are just so integral to growing as a human being to understand what’s going on at some level. There are always more layers, as we talked about, but it’s just fascinating for me to see how these things so beautifully weave together as part of this tapestry. I love that image, too.
Okay, so thanks so much to everyone for joining us. We hope you enjoyed this dive into the third stage of the de-schooling phase of our journey, as we explored the idea of accepting the value of all experiences.
And we invite you to join us in the Living Joyfully Network to continue this conversation because we love talking about this stuff. It’s a warm and welcoming online community of like-hearted parents, a non-judgmental space where you can steep in these unconventional unschooling ideas, and just start to explore and talk about what they might look like day-to-day in your uniquely wonderful family. Your first month is free, so you can get a sense of whether the community is a good fit for you. We are excited to welcome you.
To learn more and join us, just follow the link in the show notes or go to livingjoyfully.ca and choose Network in the menu. Wishing everyone a lovely day. Thanks so much, you guys.
Bye.
EU415: Growing Up Unschooling with Halie Barrick
Aug 13, 2026
For this new Growing Up Unschooling episode, Pam, Anna, and Erika were joined by 26-year-old Halie Barrick, who has always been unschooled. Halie shared about her experiences growing up, her journey through college and grad school, the business she created with her mom, and her advice to newer unschooling parents. She also reflected on the connections between what interested her as a child and what she’s passionate about today. It was a beautiful conversation with so many deep insights. We hope that you enjoy listening to Halie’s thoughts as much as we did!
Can you share with us a bit about you and your family?
What were some of your interests growing up and how did you pursue them?
You decided to pursue a Bachelor’s and Master’s degree. Can you tell us about that experience?
You have started a business called Growing Edge Equine*imity. What made you decide to start a business? Can you tell us about your vision for it?
As a grown unschooler, what piece of advice would you like to share with unschooling parents who are just starting out on this journey?
THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODE
We invite you to join us in the Living Joyfully Network, a warm and welcoming online community of like-hearted parents. It’s a non-judgmental space where you can steep in these unconventional ideas around parenting, relationships, and learning, and explore what they might look like day-to-day in your uniquely wonderful family. We offer a free month trial so you can see if it’s a good fit for you. Click here to join us.
Sign up to our mailing list on Substack to receive our email newsletters as well as new articles about learning, parenting, and so much more!
Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about exploring unschooling and navigating relationships.
EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
ANNA: Hello everyone, I’m Anna Brown from Living Joyfully, and today I’m joined by my co-hosts Erika Ellis and Pam Laricchia, as well as our special guest today, Halie Barrick. Hello to you all.
Pam and I have known Halie since she was quite small. She grew up and was involved in a group that started online, but then began meeting in person a couple times a year, and that went on for many years. We all have a lot of really fond memories of it. And honestly, it’s a testament to the kind of lifelong friendships and connections that can be made through online communities. It’s how Pam and I met, and some years later how Erika and I met, online first too. And all that grew from those early years is one of the reasons we started the Living Joyfully Network, so please check that out in the show notes, or go to livingjoyfully.ca and click on the network to join us.
But we are so excited to reconnect and see what Halie’s been up to, and so Pam, do you want to get us started today?
PAM: Absolutely, absolutely. Hi, Halie, and it is so lovely to see you again. I was hoping, could you share a little bit about you and your family, just to introduce everyone else?
HALIE: Sure, so I’m Halie. It’s great to see Pam and Anna again and meet Erika. So, I am 26 now. I’ve always been a radical unschooler, never set foot in a classroom a day in my life. My mom and I traveled a lot when I was younger, lots of cross-country road trips to visit friends and family. We’d have wonderful, rich, deep discussions on those road trips and cover so many topics. It was so much fun learning about people and visiting local bookstores and shops on our travels.
When I was seven, we moved to Vermont, my mom and I, to be closer to my grandparents. So, I’ve mostly grown up in northern Vermont, although I lived in North Carolina and Utah when I was little. My grandparents have been super supportive of unschooling. They were a little skeptical at first, but we took them to the Live and Learn conference in 2005, and they got to hear from grown unschoolers, and that really helped them understand what this whole crazy thing was.
I’ve just been super close with my mom and my grandparents and living in the woods in northern Vermont, tucked into a little family cabin in the woods. We have the same driveway as my grandparents. And I’ve got horses and miniature donkeys on the property, so it’s just been a lot of fun getting to follow my interests and grow up in nature.
ANNA: I love that.
ERIKA: That’s beautiful. So, I’m curious, what were your interests when you were growing up, and how did you end up pursuing them?
HALIE: Well, two of the biggest passions I’ve had that have lasted the longest have been reading and horses. When I was young, I had a huge collection of toy horses, a very particular brand that was very realistic. That was important to me. And my cousin and I would spend hours and hours, months on end, with these imaginative, in-depth games. All those toy horses had personalities and magic powers and complex relationships, and we processed a lot of world issues through our games.
And then when, I guess let me back up, when I was five, we lived in Utah, and my parents and I audited a college course on horsemanship. And so we would go, I have been in a classroom. In my first college course, I was five. We learned about horse breeds, and then we would go for weekly riding lessons. And while we were in Utah, we ended up with a few horses. And we didn’t really know what we were doing, but we had a lot of fun.
And then when my mom and I moved to Vermont, we were able to bring Garnet, my older horse, she’s my older horse now. Just one of our horses from Utah came with us. And the year that I was nine, we, together, my mom and I spent the full year driving an hour to our mentor’s barn and learning natural horsemanship.
In Utah, we learned traditional horsemanship, which is very power over, dominance, control-based. And that didn’t sit right with us. So, when we moved here and started learning natural horsemanship, it was a whole new paradigm.
It was basically the difference between traditional parenting and education and unschooling and peaceful parenting. My mom loved to see those parallels. And my mom’s master’s degree is in early childhood education, family mental health.
She’s done tons of research and always knew we were going to be unschooling. And so we would go together every day from like 10am to 7pm and help this lady with her barn chores and work with her horses. And she coached me in kind of unlearning the old paradigm and relearning natural horsemanship with my horse Garnet.
Garnet had to unlearn those old power dynamics that she was fighting against and relearn this new relationship built on communication and trust and partnership. So, that was my deep dive into horse training, which then has continued my whole life. Off and on with that particular mentor, then bringing Garnet home, getting my mom a horse, then I got miniature donkeys for my 12th birthday. So that passion bled into what I’m doing now and wove through my time at college as well.
The other passion that I’ve always had is reading and how it’s connected to fantasy books and therefore medieval history for me. My parents read to me when I was little, my grandfather would read to me for hours on end every night. And it was an interesting conversation about unschooling at that point with my grandparents because I didn’t learn to read independently until I was 11.
And they kept getting very nervous and trying to push me and would say, just read the first page. Okay, well, just read the first sentence. Okay, just read the first word. And my mom would have to talk to them and say, back off, trust the process. If you pressure her, it’s just gonna cause more resistance. Just make it fun. Take the pressure off.
I have very fond memories of my grandfather reading to me. And then I got to the point where when he was at work, I wanted to know what happened in the story. So I started teaching myself how to read. And he had read me the Harry Potter series twice. And so that ended up being the first series that I picked up on my own. And I’d say in the first book, I was actually reading maybe 20% of it. But I knew the story. And by the last book, I was reading probably 90% of it.
ANNA: I love that. That sounds familiar, doesn’t it, Pam?
PAM: That was very familiar, because I was reading the series. And as the books came out, we would have a big to do and I’d read and everything. But yes, I couldn’t read all day, which was what Lissy would have loved. And so we picked up the audiobook versions. So she started reading along with the audiobook as well. And that was it, one day, she just came down and said, Hey, I’m reading. I read the first three chapters or whatever, whatever. So, that was a very familiar introduction.
And that’s the difference between thinking about learning to read as an end goal, like I need to learn to read or my granddaughter needs to learn to read. And then picking easier readers or whatever to try and help that process along versus when an interest and a need, like your interest and the interest in the Harry Potter books, both of them came together to where it just felt like a time where you wanted to dive in, into it, right?
Because sometimes our brains just aren’t ready for it. I feel like when your mom was easing them into, just trust the process, just let things unfold. That doesn’t mean sitting back and doing nothing. Reading the books to people getting the books, finding the books that are super fun and interesting for them.
Because you don’t have to be behind in anything. Just because the act of reading is not a skill that someone’s picked up yet. There’s so many other ways to get at that, the stories and information, all those pieces. So yeah, that’s super cool, Halie.
ERIKA: I just love the threads, the through lines when you grow up and you can look back and say, hey, this is something I’ve always been interested in. Playing with the toy horses when I was super little. And then that is a through line through your life. And with all that, it just feels like all this space and all this support for you to really dive as deeply as you wanted into your interests. I just love that story.
ANNA: Just make it fun, just share that love of reading, share the love of whatever the thing is we have with our kids. And then it’s so beautiful.
HALIE: My grandmother, once I learned to read, she was like, well, when are you going to stop reading and go outside again? Because all you want to do is read.
ANNA: That’s how it works a lot, isn’t it!?
HALIE: I’ve always gone all in with whatever I’m doing for a long time. And the love of reading then translated to a love of medieval history and getting really interested in Renaissance fairs and archery and sword fighting.
And then I connected that with my love of horses. And I taught myself mounted archery so I can be shooting the bow and arrow while riding my horse.
ANNA: I love seeing how the threads weave together, but over the course of a decade.
PAM: That space. Yeah, yeah. I’m just gonna leap off that for a second, Halie, just for people listening to get an idea of just how these things flow. We’re going to a Ren Faire this weekend. My son is working at it. He’s doing the jousting and the fighting. He’s a stunt actor. So, that piece is super cool. His interest in stunt acting started way back as a kid. He was always a rough and tumbley kind of person and then started with karate. So, that just wove over the years.
And then Lissy’s interest in Harry Potter. Then she got into reading fan fiction. Then there was a fan fiction writer who would use music quotes at the beginning of their chapters, which got her interested in music. She was also interested in photography at the time. And then eventually photography and music have woven together.
Now she mostly photographs musicians. I love hearing the stories about all the interests and how they weave together. It’s not like you were interested in horses, so you have to be interested in horses forever. I would look at how it all weaves together and weaves through various interests, right? It’s like interest just almost seems like such a small word.
ANNA: But it’s that space and time, right? It’s that space to pursue and find the weaving. I think when we think about a curriculum or if we’re trying to do something for our child’s learning, it’s so limiting, right? Because it’s this one very linear path and you can see through Halie, your story and all of our stories that we’ve talked about so many times, it’s never linear. It’s just all of these different bits weaving together and the web that we create. So yeah, I just, I love hearing about those threads and I think we’ve got more coming. So, I’m excited for what’s next.
PAM: Now, a little bit earlier, you mentioned college and you did decide to pursue a bachelor’s and master’s degree. So I was hoping you could share about that experience as well.
HALIE: Sure. So, I wanted to go to college because I wanted to get a master’s degree because I wanted letters after my name. And part of that was that my parents both have higher degrees. They didn’t push it. But I also felt like I wanted to prove to the world that unschooling worked, which is maybe not the best way to go into that.
But I did not want to go to a traditional college. I was very against that. It did not feel aligned with how I learn or what I wanted to do at all. And so I was really thinking about it for a couple of years. And my mom knew of Goddard College, which happened to be an hour and a half from us. And they were like unschooling for college.
They were entirely self-directed, self-designed, low residency. So we would go for a week at the start of the semester, work with our small advising group, like four to eight students of all different ages and interests, with an advisor. And through that process, create our study plan.
There were no tests and no grades. It was all about communicating with your advisor, writing things, getting really detailed feedback. And then you would write a self-evaluation and your advisor would write a narrative evaluation at the end of the semester.
So we went to Goddard for an open house the same day that we went to a college fair, and it was a very stark difference. And I immediately knew I was home when I got to Goddard. The people were lovely, very social justice oriented. My cousin, who was living with us at the time, she and I went to Goddard together. And it was a nice kind of buffer. We could support each other as we expanded out a little bit more into the world.
So, Goddard was really special. I got my four-year undergraduate degree there, graduated in the fall of 2022. I took a year off and then I went back with the plan to get a two-year master’s program.
And I was a year in when Goddard closed, which was super, super sad. I think largely it was for financial reasons. They had a partnership with Prescott College out in Arizona that helped take Goddard students and continue their path and help them graduate. So, I completed my master’s a year ago. And yeah, it was really special. I think we need more schools like Goddard.
I started my first semester with something that I was comfortable with, which was horsemanship. And then I moved away from that for the middle semesters and explored everything from creative writing to astrophysics. And then the way Goddard worked was they wanted you to explore lots of different things for the first three years and then hone in on a big senior study project that would be like your major.
And so I came back around to partnership-based horse training, horse psychology, and I ended up getting a young horse, Chantilly Lace. She was only 14 months old, a little Arabian filly, and she was my senior study. Training her for that first year and doing a lot of research and journaling and writing about horsemanship in general, and particularly natural horsemanship.
So, that was my undergraduate senior study. And then part of that senior study, I was learning about equine-assisted psychotherapy. And a big part of our conversations, between me and my mom, growing up have been psychology and sociology and trauma-informed care and social emotional learning.
And so, I was researching equine-assisted psychotherapy and I decided I didn’t want to be a therapist, but I did speak that language and I did see the value in working with horses to develop interpersonal skills. So, I went back for my master’s with this focus of can I start a business to support people through activities with the horses? And that was my master’s program.
So my master’s was also self-designed equine-assisted learning and business design.
ANNA: Nice. So cool. I think it is really interesting. I didn’t know that Goddard had closed. I was familiar with it before, but I didn’t know that it was closed. So that is sad.
But I love how you were able to take all these different pieces and that they really encouraged that and then weave it together to find this path that felt good in that moment. I love that.
And so that kind of leads into my question, which I’m super excited about, because I also am very into horses and have been since I was little and natural horsemanship and all the things involved with just that beautiful relationship and how it translates so beautifully to humans as well.
And so you have started a business called Growing Edge Equine-imity. I’m curious, what made you want to start that business? Can you tell us a little bit about your vision for it? Just a little bit about how that it sounded like that really started in your master’s program, thinking, OK, I want this business. And so what that looked like, where you are now, and what your hopes are for it.
HALIE: Yeah. It’s been a year since I technically started the business and it’s feeling like a really exciting point in time. Things are beginning to come together. So, Growing Edge Equine-imity. I guess I’ll start with the name.
I wanted it to be Growing Edge because it’s about personal development and finding your growth edge, having a growth mindset. And I wanted “growing” to show it’s a process. It continues. And my mom, I’ve got to give her credit for the equine-imity part of combining equine and equanimity. She thought she was very clever with that. I love it.
So it’s an equine-assisted personal and professional development business. And the goal is to empower parents and educators in understanding self-directed education and shifting adult youth relationships from power over to power with. And I think a lot of that is about reflecting on how us as adults were raised and what kind of cultural conditioning we’ve received and unpacking that and really thinking about what are our values and what are our hopes for our children. What kinds of baggage do we need to unpack, what conversations do we need to have, and what skills to develop so that we can show up and support the children in the way that we want to.
It doesn’t have to be about unschooling per se, but since that’s my experience, I really wanted to start there combining my love of horses, my unschooling experience, and the fact that this psychology and sociology has been so interwoven into my life.
So, the business was really a way of pulling these threads together in a way that I could hopefully make a living while also supporting people and making a difference in the world in a way that’s really fun and meaningful to me and brings my personal passions together. So that was the goal of the business.
ANNA: Wow.
PAM: I love the way. I feel like. I was just going to say I love the way the threads all weave together, right? That, to me, that’s the beautiful piece, like Anna was talking about before, the space and time to really discover these various threads and then finding and exploring ways to weave them together so that it’s not like, okay, I have to choose one now and ignore the other things that I’m interested in, at least for a while I can pursue this one thing.
And it is really beautiful the way you’ve been able to find those pieces and then bring those into your masters. And through that lens, because you had said you were doing some business stuff too in your masters as well, right? So just weaving all those pieces together.
I love that so much.
ANNA: Yeah. I was just going to say it too, very similarly, but I feel like the best ideas and the ideas that change the world are that, right? It’s all the pieces, it’s bringing in these passion-driven pieces and these explorations.
I am super excited about what you’re putting out into the world. And I think so many people will be drawn to it because it really hits so many notes for people. And I think just your passion and love for it is also just going to continue to attract things.
I’m excited about your journey with that.
ERIKA: Yeah, it’s so beautiful. And I love contrasting that with, if you get that tunnel vision of, I’ve become an adult, I’ve got to just go get a job. I have to make money and kind of losing parts of yourself. Which I feel like a lot of people do in our culture. I just love the creativity and the intention and thoughtfulness that you’re putting into your path where it’s like, no, I can make a difference and I can continue to explore my passions and there’s value to this, all of these interests.
It’s so much more personal and it’s so connected, which I think then makes the work really land, for other people. So yeah, that’s so beautiful.
PAM: I was just going to add, I happened to be at an extended family picnic last weekend, a few days ago. And somebody, of course, has been asking what my kids were up to. And I explained what they were doing. And they looked at me and said, they’re just doing the stuff they like to do, but as adults. And I was just like, yeah, it doesn’t have to be just what you were saying, Erika. Now I need to get a job. Those don’t have to be separate things, right? We really can weave them together so beautifully.
ANNA: From the start, because I feel like the piece that I see in the work that I do with people is that in their 40s, they’re going, wait a minute. And they’re trying to re-tap into those feelings from when they were younger and had these driving passions and had these visions for what they wanted to be in the world and do in the world. But like you said, Erika, they just set it aside because, oh, okay, it has to look like this.
And so I do think this is one of the gifts of unschooling is that you really can have a head start on that, on really understanding yourself, self-awareness, just all of those pieces that you don’t have to unlearn later.
ERIKA: It feels like we have taken the interest seriously all along, not as this is a little side thing that if you have enough time, you can squeeze into your life. It’s like, no, if you’re able to really dive in and pursue your interests, then you’ll actually be able to use them in a meaningful way for your whole life. It just makes such a difference because people are so different.
There isn’t one right path to being an adult and working. And so, yeah, I just love that so much. And I know everyone loves hearing these conversations with grown unschoolers.
I know people will be excited to hear what you’ve learned along the way. So my question is, what piece of advice would you like to share with unschooling parents who are just starting out on the unschooling journey?
HALIE: That is a good question. How much time do we have? I mean, I think trust is the most important. I think trusting yourself and your own instincts and also trusting your children and that they also know what’s best for them.
I think with trusting your instincts, being able to separate what’s actually your instinct and what’s cultural conditioning and being able to figure out where the difference is and trust your instincts and critically analyze what the cultural messaging is. And then have real authentic conversations with your children so that you can ask them what they need and you can be partners and be on the same team.
I was thinking about this this morning and I have a little flow chart in my head. If you think about what’s your end goal, what’s your why? Why are you doing this? Why does it matter? Where do you want your children to be as young adults? And then backwards map it and think about what are the steps to get there.
In my mind, if the end goal is collaboration between you and your children in this journey of life, then what does that collaboration need? And I think it needs trust and communication. And trust, for me anyways, emotional trust means congruence.
So, your inner experience and your outer portrayal need to be aligned in a way that’s not dumping your emotions and needs on everybody around you, but being authentic and honest with what you’re feeling and who you are. And so part of getting to this point of healthy congruence, which is really what the horses help you with too, because horses live in the moment and are totally authentic and respond to that congruence. But to get there, you need this self-responsibility aspect and this self-compassion aspect of also doing what you need to support yourself and give yourself grace for when you’re not perfect, because no one’s ever perfect.
And then also the communication aspect of learning how to communicate with your teammates, if that’s your friends, your family, your children, and how to work through conflict. There are obviously tons of resources out there. We’ve particularly been drawn towards nonviolent communication with Marshall Rosenberg and Ross Green’s Collaborative and Proactive Solutions.
But the other concept I wanted to mention is the idea of rupture and repair in a relationship. You’re going to run into dings, and that’s an opportunity to literally practice resilience. Because if you can come back in a calm time and address those issues, your relationship grows stronger because of that. And again, there is no real perfection, which drives me crazy.
I’m a person who wants to know what’s perfect and then wants to meet that standard. The thing that I’ve had to realize is not only are we incapable of being perfect 100% of the time, but the definition of perfect is fluid between moment to moment and person to person. And so really it’s about showing up with full presence and having compassion for yourself and others and being willing to have real, authentic conversations and go back and address things when things feel sticky.
ERIKA: That’s awesome. I feel like you’ve talked about a lot of the things that we have recently been talking about too, just about paradigm shifts in parenting. And I think that is so huge about realizing we can’t be perfect. And that in fact, those moments where we are imperfect are the perfect time to then be building trust in our relationships. That just takes so much pressure off of me as a parent, but it also, it’s true.
I’ve seen it happen for us. And we can’t be perfect, but when we can repair, we’re all stronger. We all have this shared experience with each other that we can build on for the next time.
So I loved those answers, Halie.
ANNA: Oh my gosh. So, so much.
And I love that idea that perfect is fluid because I think all of us can get caught up in that, wanting to do the best job, the right thing, that piece. But it is, the people are different idea that we talk about a lot. It is different in every situation.
And those are the perfect opportunities to learn and grow and make that repair and deepen the relationship. And so I think it is helpful for parents to realize that this is not about doing X thing perfectly. It really is just about the presence.
And so I loved that, that kind of an opposite of perfect is letting it go to just being present, being present, that’s the work that we can do to show up for the people in our lives, to learn about ourselves, to learn about each other. And so, yeah, I just thought that was so beautiful. Thank you.
PAM: That presence is really how we can learn and navigate that moment. Like being truly present helps us see the next baby step of repair, right? It’s hard to have a rupture, then come up with this whole repair plan and then bring it back and do the thing, right? It really is a team effort, it’s in that presence and that trust. Their trust in us, to hear us as we come and approach a repair, but also our trust and our developing trust with experience just in the process itself.
Because for me, again, I’m another one who wants the right answer, just tell me what to do, tell me how to fix it, and I’ll do it. But time and again, through experience, just showing up and having those authentic conversations leads all of us into the way to execute in the right word, but for the repair to happen, right? And it’s not a one and done.
I can see so many people, I want to have this repair conversation and be done. And now we’re all back to normal, right? But that fluidity of perfection, that fluidity of life, it’s just showing up again and again and being present and being open and curious and trust.
And yeah, that was all beautiful.
ERIKA: I liked how you said that there’s resources for this too, though, because I feel like so many of us as parents, we did not grow up with this being modeled. What does validation look like? What does this kind of communication look like? But there are resources out there. So we can learn and just try things out with our family. So yeah, I loved that point as well.
ANNA: Yeah, for sure. Well, Halie, thank you so much for joining us. It was just such a treat.
And I just feel like we will definitely be staying in touch. I feel like we’ll see you again down the road because I think there’s just so much to what you’re doing and all that you’re putting out into the world. That’s so beautiful.
And I want to thank everybody for listening. And we hope that you enjoyed this conversation. It was just so great to catch up with Halie.
And I know, like Erika said, people really enjoy hearing from grown unschoolers. And sometimes we’re like, it’s not about a product or it’s not one path. Halie’s path is her own.
But I think it does show this weaving in of these different pieces, these threads and how it can look so different than what the traditional paths are. I do hope you’ll also check out Halie’s website, which is growingedgeequineimity.com. But we’ll also put it in the show notes so you can find it there.
And before we go, I want to invite everyone to join us at the Living Joyful Network. It’s a warm and welcoming online community of like-hearted parents, a non-judgmental space where you can steep in these unconventional ideas and explore what it might look like day to day in your family and ask questions and just see it in action too. Your first month is free so you can get a sense of whether the community is a good fit for you and we would love to see you there.
To learn more and to join us, just follow the link in the show notes or you can go to livingjoyfully.ca and choose Network in the menu. So thank you everyone again and take care. Thank you, Halie.
PAM: Thanks, Halie. So nice to see you.
EU414: When Unschooling Kids Choose School
Jul 30, 2026
We invited a panel of three unschooling parents to join us to talk about what happens when unschooling kids choose school. Ari, Terri, and Kinsey are all members of the Living Joyfully Network and they all have children who have chosen to try school. They shared about what led to the decision, how the expectations of school affected them and their families, what they and their kids learned from their experiences, and how their foundation of unschooling helped them along the way. It was really interesting to hear about their unique paths and we hope you find our conversation helpful on your unschooling journey!
Watch the video of our conversation on YouTube.
THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODE
We invite you to join us in the Living Joyfully Network, a warm and welcoming online community of like-hearted parents. It’s a non-judgmental space where you can steep in these unconventional ideas around parenting, relationships, and learning, and explore what they might look like day-to-day in your uniquely wonderful family. We offer a free month trial so you can see if it’s a good fit for you. Click here to join us.
Sign up to our mailing list on Substack to receive our email newsletters as well as new articles about learning, parenting, and so much more!
Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about exploring unschooling and navigating relationships.
EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
ERIKA: Hello, everyone. I’m Erika Ellis from Living Joyfully, and I’m joined by my co-hosts, Anna Brown and Pam Laricchia, as well as our special guests today, Ari, Terri, and Kinsey. Hi, everyone.
So, I am really excited for this conversation. We invited Ari, Terri, and Kinsey, who are all Living Joyfully Network members, to join us today to talk about what happens when unschooling kids choose to go to school. There are lots of reasons why kids might be interested in trying school. And if they do, it can be a different experience than we might expect, because they’re making that choice themselves. But since people are different, and so are schools, we’ve seen a really wide range of experiences. And so thank you all for joining us to share a bit about your family’s experience.
To get us started, can you briefly introduce yourself and share just a bit about your family? And maybe we could start with Ari.
ARI: Sure. Hi, I’m Ari. I have three daughters. They are 10, 5, and 7. And we live in Portland, Oregon. We’ve been unschooling for about four years now. And this past year, my 10-year-old decided to go to school. She attended our local public school for fourth grade.
ERIKA: Okay. And Terri?
TERRI: We live in Swan River, Manitoba, quite a small town. There are four of us, me and my husband, and our two kids, a boy and a girl, Felix and Stella. And Stella decided to go into school this last year, into grade four as well. We live out in the country. It’s nice and quiet out here. And we have various interests that we have going on.
ERIKA: Thank you. And Kinsey?
KINSEY: Awesome. Hey, yes, I’m Kinsey. I live in Lubbock, Texas. And I have two children, Riley, who’s 15, and Emmy, who’s 12. Emmy chose to try school in 2024, and was there for a little while. So yeah, we had some experience there at our local public school.
PAM: Nice. That’s very awesome. Okay, so now let’s get into a little bit more of the details. We’re very excited to hear everyone’s stories.
We would love to know how did your child’s choice to go to school come about? And then how did it play out for your family? Certainly like at the beginning, as you guys were adjusting and getting this kind of settled. And would you like to start, Terri?
TERRI: Sure, sure. I’m guessing like maybe two years ago, it was coming up to when we could have enrolled her for grade three. And Stella had started asking about school, saying she really wanted to go.
And we were, I guess at that point, we homeschooled from when she was young, from the very beginning, and then slowly relaxed into unschooling. So we’d maybe be unschooling for about a year at that point. It felt like we had made this choice to not do school, me and my husband anyway, to not do school. So, it was very tough to wrap our heads around, could she go to school? My husband was very against it. He doesn’t mind me saying he’s like, I said no, he said outright no to her. Outright no to me. He said, we’ve chosen this lifestyle. And this just goes against everything we believe in about the school system. And so that was fair. That was his perspective. And I had that thought as well.
But I was kind of keeping it to myself, because I could also see with my child that she’s very, when she knows something or wants something, she knows it through and through, no one will shake her, right? And she’s very strong that way. And I could see that if we held with that no, and held with what we believed was right over what she wanted, that it would be really, really bad for our relationship.
And so, my husband and I talked about it. And I just kind of brought that to him that she’s just going to dig her heels in and want it more. And then if one day we let her, maybe she won’t feel comfortable to come to us if it’s not right. So, we’ve had those conversations.
Like I said, it took like a year, because that was grade three. And then finally, when it came back around to springtime, we had all talked about it and said, you know, yes, let’s try this out. Let’s try for grade four, there’s really only two schools you can choose from here, either French immersion or English speaking.
We could have done French immersion, that was an option. But she was very much against that. So, we enrolled her and also really did lots of work, reassuring her that there would be no, I told you so, you can come home anytime. You can tell us if it’s difficult, but that it was a lot of work. It was a year of work getting to that place. And yeah, it worked out in the end. So, that’s how we came to it.
PAM: Very cool. Very cool. Kinsey, what was your experience?
KINSEY: Let’s see, school is something that Emmy has mentioned over the years, at times, just something that she wanted to try. I think it’s part of just culture, it’s everywhere. People online talk about experiences at school, good and bad.
I think it was kind of like a social experiment for her. Just to see what it was like. So, before we moved here back, we live with my parents in my childhood home, in my hometown. And so she went to the public school that I grew up going to. And still with a lot of staff and stuff that I remember from when I was there, or knew from there, or that knew my parents, that worked with my parents at the school. So, we had a lot of resources, which was great, really helpful.
She went up there and was really excited. She was really excited to try it and did okay for the first couple weeks. And then it was like, okay, I’ve seen what this is like and I’m finished with this. But she did not stop going to school, then she would actually stay on and for the rest of the semester, which was pretty challenging for her. Are we going in depth of school experiences right now or how it played out?
PAM: Right now, this is just the choice to go to school. Let’s just focus on that piece.
KINSEY: Just trying it, I think just trying it. And at the time too, her dad was encouraging her to go.
PAM: Makes sense, makes sense. And Ari?
ARI: My daughter would mention school a little bit in the few months before she made her decisive statement that she was going. But usually, it would come up like, hey, I think I want to try school. And we would say, okay, and then it would fall away for weeks or months.
And then there was one time she had been spending a lot of time during the summer with our neighbor and her good buddy, who goes to school. And the two girls were together one day and they both came up. And my daughter was like, I’m going to school this year, or I want to go to school this year. And something about it was like, this is for real. And so I thought maybe this is actually going to happen.
We were three or four weeks from the start of school. So it all felt kind of sudden and there might be a lot to prepare for. But we embraced it. We were like, okay, this is your choice. And so I just enrolled her. And that was pretty straightforward.
I think she had, she knew quite a few friends through her soccer team. And that was a big draw. She wanted to spend more time with them. I would say that, in that nine year old year, there were signs of kind of itching for more with life.
A little bit less satisfied with our co-op, our little homeschool playgroup type things. And I could see she was just kind of reaching for more. And so I viewed this as an extension of that. So, she started school and really enjoyed it. So that’s where we were.
ANNA: Okay, so I’m going to ask about expectations. I feel like school adds some expectations, because they have a way of doing things that’s very different from the way that we all would have been doing it in your families. So how did you handle that change of expectations? And how did your child, did they roll with it? Did they have questions about it? Was it hard to kind of balance those two? And I think, Kinsey, I’ll start with you for this one.
KINSEY: Okay, let’s see, expectations. Clearly the schedule part of it was super new and different. So those kinds of expectations, the absences, you know, being there, attendance, there was an expectation that took me a while to embrace. I know how it works. It still took a little bit to maybe get used to those expectations being a part of our life.
And the communication expected between me and the school about what was going on with my child. If she wanted to miss a day, is it going to be an excused absence or not, and stuff like that. And keeping track. Thankfully, our school here doesn’t assign homework. That would have been quite difficult, I think, even worse.
When Emmy was excited to go to school and motivated, I was excited for her to go to school and motivated to help her with that, because she wanted to be there and wanted to go. Even getting up and getting prepared and getting her stuff that she needed, and making connections even before and all that stuff. It was really fine.
It was when she was finished with the experience and couldn’t stop. Just because of what was going on in our family at the time. We were going through a divorce at the time. So that really complicated things.
And so she wasn’t able to just come right out. At the beginning of her trying it, that was the expectation. And that was the plan for her to just be able to try it. And then when/if the expectations were too much of a mismatch, or she got her curiosity filled, she got the information she needed to know, or whatever experience, she could come out.
And just because of the divorce and the impending case, it wasn’t that easy. And so for the rest of the semester, it was quite challenging to be with the outside expectations that we no longer wanted to be a part of. So that’s just a little bit more complicated and our specific situation. But she pushed through. And I hated it. Honestly.
But yeah, there were expectations. It was really interesting. Oh yeah, I forget that I need to tell people what’s going on in our family, I don’t know why she’s not there, and she’s not going to be there. And if she’s going to be back tomorrow or not. And to report everything to that authority figure. It can be challenging, for me anyway.
ANNA: Yeah.
KINSEY: And once when I was there as well. I had a great school experience. I really did great at school. I was there at that school my whole 12 years. It was fine. It’s going back again, on this side, was interesting.
ANNA: I bet. Oh, my goodness. All right, Terri, how about you?
TERRI: Stella was all ready to meet all the expectations at the start. Because in something I forgot to mention earlier, when she was talking about wanting to go to school, we’re trying to figure out what she was looking for. Is it the friends? Is it structure? No, she just wanted that school experience. So, she was making her lunch the night before and setting her clothes out and getting to bed on time, which is well on time. She’d say, Okay, I need to be in bed between nine and 10.
So, she would set her time and she was there. And then you come up with, a month in or so, some uncomfortable situations. Which kind of leads into what’s expected of me. She had a stuffy nose one morning, and she didn’t want to go to school. And I knew the night before she’d been up to about like 11 or 12. And so my mind went straight to that. She’s not sick enough to stay home. She stayed up too late. She should still go to school. That’s what my parents would have told me. And so there was a lot of work in just a space of 20 minutes one morning, where I was battling back and forth in my head.
Make her go to school. No, don’t. But she doesn’t need to be going to school, but she should go to school. No, she doesn’t feel well. And finally, I just called it in. I said, she won’t be in she’s not feeling well. That’s it. And that became my go to anytime that she was just not feeling like going. Sorry, she won’t be in and she’s not feeling well. And that’s it. And what happened? Nothing bad happened. I was kind of like, Oh, someone’s going to call me, someone’s going to find out. I’m going to be caught.
So, that was a big expectation that I had to work through. Both of us. She’s always been kind of skeptical about anything or everyone to make sure if people are telling the truth. Well, not necessarily in a whole, but I think with teachers and adults at school, she’s slowly began to see, they’re saying one thing, but doing another, or they’re saying it here, but it doesn’t apply here, or it applies to kids, but it doesn’t apply to them. So she saw this gap.
And over those months, anytime she came up to an expectation that was uncomfortable, she’d be a little anxious about it. But then we move through it. And she’d be like, Oh, yeah, right.
I think it really broke her trust in just any adults, right? In people who aren’t in our important relationships. And, yeah, I think that was a lot.
That was a big part of the journey for all of us, I think. And then she did, she did come out of school in March. I would say, all the way up to Christmas, she was pretty happy. And then by January, she started not to go. She was staying home more often, taking long weekends. Saying it was boring, or coming home with more stories like, Oh, the teacher said this, and I don’t agree with that. And, and then by March, she just didn’t go back after a weekend. She’s like, I don’t want to go back.
ANNA: All right, Ari, what about you? And was it? Yeah, what did those expectations bring to the family? And really, even to the other members of the family, too?
ARI: Yeah, I think this is so interesting, because we’re all talking about our expectations. And that was the biggest challenge. In our families, my expectation was that my daughter wouldn’t like it, or that it would be this environment that I had built up as this coercive, limiting world for her. And the reality wasn’t. It was a widening world for her. It was opening things up. So, I gradually let go of what school meant to me, as an unschooling parent, and just let her have her experience with it.
So, that was a journey for me. I would say the expectations from school on to my daughter were similar to what Terri and Kinsey were talking about. The schedule, the showing up, we did have homework, a light homework assignment once a week. And my daughter took all those in stride. Like Terri’s daughter, she would make a lunch, she would get herself up, she would walk herself to school. After a couple weeks, she started doing that and walked herself home. So it was pretty cool to see, I could really celebrate that, this initiated independence.
It’s not like, you must do this, because we’re parents trying to help you be independent. It was just, I’m at a phase of life where I kind of want to take on more responsibility for myself. So that was fun to watch.
I had another thought, but I can’t think of it right now.
ANNA: That’s okay. It may come to you.
ERIKA: So, our next question is how you found that your unschooling principals helped you as you were supporting your child in their school experience? And maybe we could start with Terri.
TERRI: Yeah, sure. Definitely the idea of holding it lightly, right from the very beginning. Making that decision, just really reminding myself constantly that it’s not a big deal. They can go, they cannot go.
We can try to meet some of the expectations school puts on us, and we can let some slide. There’s so much choice. So holding things lightly, all the way through. That was a big one for me.
And then also, open and curious, whenever we did meet one of those uncomfortable moments, she would come home from school and tell me something that happened. And you want to jump in and you want to fix it. And you want to suggest all sorts of things, all sorts of great ideas.
And I really worked at just being, just shutting up, just being quiet. I let her say all of the things, maybe ask some more questions to help her tell me more. And then either I might make a suggestion, or I might ask her if she wants advice. And sometimes she just needed to let it all out.
And then I just kept picking up little nuggets of information, right? And it just was more information for the next thing we ran into. So I think those are really, really helpful. Those are the two best ones.
Erika: Yes. How about Ari?
ARI: Yeah, I totally agree. Holding it lightly, letting it be their journey, following their lead, kind of matching their energy, showing interest when they’re interested and listening, so much listening. Which I felt was a gift because you hear stories about kids coming home from school and not wanting to share anything with their parents. But that wasn’t my experience.
My daughter would share what she learned, share what she did at recess. It just took a couple little questions sometimes for me. And she likes talking about it. So that was really nice.
I thought of what I was going to say, which was I love what Kinsey mentioned about matching expectations or something about, there’s a mismatch between the expectations on you and kind of what you’re willing to bring. That’s what I was always looking for.
And I think that’s what they are good at. They know that if there’s an outside expectation on them, they have a choice whether they want to stay in the situation and meet those because it’s worth it to them or go a different path. And so I liked looking for that and watching to see if my kids are paying attention to that as well.
I also wanted to mention my daughter’s teacher, who was pretty spectacular. I felt like she met my daughter and all the kids on a person level. It was like she saw them as people to interact with, not just pupils to be an authority for. And I think that made a big difference for my daughter’s experience. My daughter liked interacting with her teacher.
They would have conversations, they would joke. And that’s the kind of relationship with adults that she’s used to. So that was powerful.
But there are also times when the teacher has to be a teacher or there’s expectations on them. And I remember with the report card once, I shared in the network, how my daughter received a report that was, my goal for her is to do her best even on tasks that she’s not very interested in. And it was like, huh, okay. Why? Because that’s an expectation that people should just do things that authority tells them to do. Is that really what we’re trying to instill in our young people?
So, that’s just an interesting moment. And we talked about that. We still support you just following your interests.
Now I’ve taken us out of the question. Where were we?
ERIKA: Unschooling principles.
ARI: Yeah, I guess they all fit. Open and curious. Everybody’s voice is important. And your own opinion, your own initiative is the most important.
ERIKA: And how about Kinsey?
KINSEY: So I think the most important principle for me was open and curious for sure. But also always making sure I was seeing things through Emmy’s eyes. Because school can be such a loaded experience.
I think there can be a lot of outside pressure. We had so many people who were really, really, really happy that Emmy was going to school. So, I wanted to be really attentive and make sure that I was really seeing things from her perspective and hearing her and believing about what her experience was. And she had a great experience.
The teacher, she had no problems at all with teachers. The teachers really loved her. She didn’t have problems with the work or anything like that. It was, again, I think it was just really a social experience for her, an experiment.
And so and then when she was in a situation that she couldn’t easily get out of, it really became my focus to see things from her eyes and be her advocate in the best ways that I could. And keeping all my other unschooling principles. I don’t even really think about things as principles, I guess, it’s just kind of a way of being, a way of life. Tracking with her experience, prioritizing what that is, and the information that we’re getting from that, and responding in the most supportive ways that we can. Within the situation, the scenario that you’re in.
I think that’s what I would say, just the ways of unschooling, the ways of being were helpful. Yeah, holding it lightly. Plenty of time, there’s plenty of time. It’s just all so helpful. It’s all so helpful. In what could have been a really highly pressurized or complicated experiment.
ANNA: Yeah, it sounds like you were able to keep your connection, even though it did get harder because of just the outside context pieces.
KINSEY: That was the most important thing.
PAM: Yeah. And I think like the thread through all of your perspectives on it feels different. Like you’re saying it is, it’s just a way of being.
And that I feel like at the beginning, those were the expectations you guys were wrestling with a bit. You didn’t want to take on that authority figure, and take on those expectations wholeheartedly from school and then put them on your child. But that you were processing through all the things with them and helping them explore the things, the challenges there and the expectations they wanted to choose to take. Like you were saying Ari, sometimes it’s hard, or it may be an unexpected thing. But in the bigger picture, I want to meet it or to be able to process those things without just being told, you got to do this thing. This is how it is like that.
That is huge. I think it’s a very different way for them to experience it, even Kinsey, when she did have to stay longer, your extra effort to see through her eyes and to be specifically advocating for her as much as possible.
Those are very different experiences for kids, I think. So, I wanted to just dive into this last piece, this last question, because we could come up with all the questions that we wanted. But it would be very interesting for us to hear what else you or your kids would like to share about their school experience.
I think it’ll be fun to see what stuck out for you and for them. So would you like to start Ari?
ARI: Sure. I might come up with more ideas after I hear Terri and Kinsey’s. The one kind of big picture thought I keep having is that the school is very central to our neighborhood.
A lot of events happen there. The PTA is very well resourced and very active. There are community events which are centered around the school.
It’s probably part of my daughter’s draw to school because that’s where the center of social activity is. And it’s in some ways beautiful and in some ways kind of troubling for me because I can consider the alternative. What if our community built that energy just around ourselves, just around our kids and didn’t tie it to this brick and mortar building where we put kids for six hours a day. I see why my daughter loves to go to school. She loves gym, and music, and library, and recess. And doing projects with her friends. And that’s all possible without the coercion, without required attendance. It requires some structure and a lot of effort, but I think our community could do that without the school.
So anyway, this is my own kind of mind wandering. I think there are some wonderful aspects to what a school can be. And it shows just what human potential is to me and what a community could be. That’s my initial thought.
PAM: How about you, Terri?
TERRI: Wow, yeah, I love that idea. I never thought of it that way, Ari. That’s really cool.
So, my mind is spinning there. But yeah, well, first of all, I asked Stella this question. I said, Is there anything you want to share?
At first, she wasn’t sure what my question really meant. And I said, well, if there was another family that the child wanted to go to school, and they’ve never been to school, if there was another child who wanted to go to school that has never been before, what would you tell them? And she said, that recess isn’t all it’s cracked up to be. People say recess is their favorite part. She’s like, it’s not that great. She did say that, the first few minutes, you’ll have lots of kids who might want to play with you, and then you might end up alone.
And I think maybe what she didn’t outright say, I think sometimes being alone was not as fun. But then sometimes she was alone, and was okay being alone. And she’d have an adult, a teacher come up to her and say, Why are you sitting alone? Are you sad? And she’d be like, I’m just sitting alone, leave me. So, that was something she wanted me to share.
The whole experience leading up to it was a lot more daunting than the actual experience. In the end, I think I had a lot of work to do, because I worked in this school. My boss was the principal who when my child was four, I said, I think I’m going to homeschool. And he says, that’s a bad idea. I had lots of stuff in my head, thinking about all the thoughts that other people might have with me, choosing to do this, maybe her leaving all that. But in the end, it was okay. Because generally, people are pretty nice. And her teacher was lovely. Very lovely.
She was sad to see her go. But yeah, it was a good experience. And I think Stella, now she’s talked about going back sometime, she says maybe grade six. Here, elementary goes up to five, and then they go to junior high six to eight, she said, maybe I’ll go back in grade six.
She also said by the time she left, she was bored, that things were easy, or they weren’t interesting. And she was bored. So maybe she’s thinking, by grade six, things will be more complicated and interesting. Who knows, I guess we’ll see.
PAM: And Kinsey?
KINSEY: So, I’ll talk about Emmy’s experiences that she shared with me when we were talking about this podcast and reflecting about being at school. One thing that she mentioned was that she was really anxious, and what’s interesting, you would not think she was having this experience of school because of the feedback I was getting back from the teachers. But she was really anxious at school all the time.
And she was, I think she was guarded, looking, scanning, maybe. And afraid that she was going to get in trouble. And it’s not because she engages in behaviors that would bring on discipline or whatever. But I think it’s just the energy and the atmosphere there. The children are always getting in trouble. There’s a punishment reward system, of course, as most schools have lots of children being yelled at by adults. And there’s a kind of an adversarial, I mean, it’s interesting. There can be a sense of community in the school, maybe it’s around sports teams or the band, or just the school, whatever it is. But then within that, there is a line between adults and children. And it’s very felt.
Which probably, now that I’m really thinking about it, was unsettling for her because she’s never lived with that. I mean, we’ve been unschooling since 2018. She was three years old when we came home from preschool. We’ve been in this very partnered relationship her whole life. And other adult child relationships that we’ve fostered and found in our life. So, to be in this place where that’s just not the energy at all, or the way that things are set up. I’m sure that was really unsettling for her, but she said she was really anxious, worried she was going to get in trouble all the time.
She said she had felt lots of pressure about her grades, which I found was interesting, too. Because it wasn’t from me. It wasn’t from anybody outside. It was from within herself, which was so interesting to me again, because we haven’t had that. That hasn’t been a thing for us in our lives or for her before that. But I think again, it’s the culture of the environment, of the school environment.
The expectations, people are getting in trouble for not meeting expectations. It’s a lot of pressure all of the time, compounded pressure all the time. So, let’s say she was exhausted. She was really burnt out. She got sick a lot. So, we started racking up lots of absences. Terri, like you were saying, so then I’m spending these mornings, half awake, going, Oh, gosh, do I? Is it okay for her to stay home? Or should I go ahead and say you’re going, why am I? Why am I even having this conversation with myself right now? This is ridiculous. But it’s part of the system, right? It’s just it’s part of it.
And then after you get so many absences, you get a letter. You have too many absences. We got a letter at the end of the semester. So, that was another stressful thing. I was like, Oh, my gosh, what does this mean? What does this mean for next semester?
But anyway, she was really exhausted. She was not sleeping well. Something she learned about school was, this was what she said, she just doesn’t have time for it. She’s busy. She doesn’t have time for school, it takes too much time. And she wasn’t able to spend time with her friends, her pre going to school friends. Her homeschool friends, her online friends, or she really cut into that time. And I think that was really hard for her. So, then what she would end up doing, well, at first, she was going to bed early, it wasn’t that big of a deal, it’s okay, or whatever, worth it, maybe to try.
And then after it wasn’t worth it anymore. She really, really needed to be able to spend time with her friends. And she would do that. And she would stay up. So she would stay up at night to do that. She would not get the hours of sleep that she needed to go to school or to to feel good at school.
I mean, so she was just exhausted. At this point, she does not have any plans of trying school again, that I know of, I mean, maybe online or college or something like that. We’ve talked about stuff like that, but not going to the local public school. And I just have to wonder, and really, I feel like actually, I don’t really have to wonder that much. I think because she entered into it with it being this open opportunity. And then that was taken. That agency was taken. And then she was having to continue to go for longer. I just don’t know if she would chance it again.
And then not being able to come out at her choosing when she knew. So that was it. I mean, it was rough. There were some really fun things about it. But altogether, it was very rough. And she’s not interested anymore.
TERRI: Yeah, and that sounds like Stella.
ANNA: Yeah, for sure. So just because we didn’t really cover this specifically. Stella did decide to come out, Terri, your daughter, and then Ari, your daughter is still enjoying it. Ready to go back, I guess it’s summer break now, though, maybe, and she’ll be going in soon for the fall.
ARI: Yes, she’ll be starting fifth grade in the fall. I definitely think about, how do I keep the options open? Of course, she can always stop.
But because the social life is so important to her, I think it would be very hard for her to choose to go away from school, even if there were other aspects that she didn’t like. Like the forced learning, the forced homework stuff, if that got to be hard, would she, it might be a challenge for her to weigh those two things. And so sometimes I think about keeping up my capacity, the kind of friendships I have with the unschooling community, so that if she were to choose to come out, it would be an attractive option.
Anyway, that’s another thing that I consider sometimes. But yeah, she’s going to school in fifth grade. And she’s also had some influence on her younger sisters. So, they would also like to try school soon.
PAM: Yeah, that’s what I was going to say, if anybody would like to speak to that, because your kids who chose to go to school or try school have siblings as well. And just how that unfolded having one sibling going to school, like managing the schedules, too. And as you said, Ari, a little bit of it is just the excitement of it, or that she would like them to be there too?
ARI: I think it’s a whole combination of those things. There’s this joy that she had that she wanted her sisters to experience too. She did talk about it, we could see each other in the hallways, we could be at recess together, you would have this teacher that there’s this knowingness.
And at first, I had more resistance to her sisters being influenced by that than I did with her initial decision to go to school, because I could tell her decision was from herself. And her sisters were being influenced by her. And at first I was resistant to that. I wanted to provide information to my other daughters about listening to what they wanted. There’s plenty of time. Don’t have to do it now. I wanted to share with them a little bit about what I think happens in school. So we talked about it.
But ultimately, I had to let go of wanting zero influence from my oldest because that’s how our family is part of their life, right? So, they get to decide how much to listen to her and to try something that she’s suggesting, and learn from that experience. So, we’re embracing it again.
ANNA: It’s going to be really fun to see how that plays out. But I think for all of them, it may be a lesson in people are different. To find that something that works so well for one may not for the other or it may be that it works in a different way and is still beautiful. But I think that’s going to be really interesting.
I am curious about that. So Terri, how did their brother feel about it? Or did that ever bring up topics of conversation?
TERRI: Oh, for sure. We ask every once in a while, like, Oh, are you ever interested? And the answer is always no. And always a hard no. So it could change and grow over time. But I know he said, and I asked if I could share this. And he said, Okay. So, his main reason is that he wouldn’t go to school, is that there might be some things he wants to do, but there might be things he doesn’t want to do. And he doesn’t want to be told he has to do the things that he doesn’t want to do. Right? It’s agency, he loses his agency.
He’s eight. And it’s true. I mean, you don’t have a whole lot. Some of it’s really great, fun stuff. But you still have to do it in a certain order, you still have to do it for a certain amount of time. That’s his main reason.
I asked him if there’s a difference from when she’s at school to when she’s home now, and he wasn’t really able to say. From our perspective, kind of observing, I think they’re playing a lot together, with their online friends, they’ll all be in a call together, and they’ll play online. Right now they’re out on the trampoline together, I feel like, when she went away, it did create a bit of a separation.
And then when she came home, she kind of wanted to do her own thing. If she goes back again, that can always be different too, as they grow. But yeah, it’s something I noticed.
ANNA: Did Riley have anything to say, Kinsey? Or did she just think, that’s Emmy, Emmy doing Emmy.
KINSEY: Emmy’s doing Emmy things. Riley has absolutely no desire whatsoever in going to school. And she didn’t have any feelings about Emmy going to school either.
It was hard with the schedule expectations. When it was okay for Riley to stay up late and be playing, or video games, laughing with my mom late at night, when I was trying to help Emmy wind down and try to get her enough sleep for school the next day. Just trying to be aware of all of that. But it was a little bit tricky sometimes. Just didn’t feel good.
TERRI: Yeah, I agree. We got into that too. Their rooms are next to each other and going in at night and say, could you just play quietly? It’s after 9. I would say after nine, can you make sure headphones are on and speak in a low voice just just to help your sister out. So, sometimes it got uncomfortable. You’re just like, be quiet, be quiet, reminding to be quiet. But, no, I don’t want to, I don’t want to do this to you. But I also want your sister to sleep.
KINSEY: You end up kind of having to be an enforcer. And that’s not where I want to be at all. It is not at all the position that I want to be in. And that actually can really bother people. And did bother people that I was not interested in forcing anyone to do anything.
ANNA: Yeah, because they all have ideas, right? I’m just going to pull out a couple things. And then we’ll just talk about what came up.
I thought it was so interesting, because we’ve seen this a lot, Terri, that you mentioned, the lead up is so much more stressful than the actual event of going to school. Because I think we see that over and over again, with people who unschool their kids, there’s a lot of worry about what’s going to happen, what’s it going to be like, and really across the board, kids that have stayed or not stayed. So, while it’s not that it’s always the perfect match, the fears that we had ahead of time really don’t play out.
So I thought that was really interesting. And then Kinsey, that piece you were talking about with adults and kids, I was thinking just of all the adults in Emmy’s life, she has so many beautiful adults in her life that just celebrate her and delight in her and how that delta must have felt really intense. And I think in other situations, it may not, but I think that is, I think, a hard part about it, that kids and adults, we kind of set up this adversarial relationship that doesn’t need to be. And we see in our lives how it doesn’t have to be that way. But it is a part of that environment.
And then just quickly, Ari, that idea of community, I’m working with someone who has this vision of creating a community village. That is to me kind of the dream, because it is bringing adults and kids together to just learn and explore and have resources together. And I think, oh my gosh, if this actually works, it would be amazing. Because we do like community. It is fun to share resources. It is fun to have those different opportunities.
But why do we have to be at a place where we have to give away so much agency and where we have to really segregate kids is so hard. But I love your point that for your daughter, it’s worth it, right? She’s getting out of it what she needs to get out of it right now. And it may always be that way for her. I think it’s just, it’s a good testament to sometimes we do need to experiment. It’s their own life. They need to see what works for them, because there is no one right answer. A lot of things bubbled up when you were talking.
PAM: That’s what I did. I did really appreciate the point of this. Okay, I’ll finish my sentence. The point of how the lead up can be so much more challenging than the actual experience. And we see that so often, when parents are almost feeling like they need to adopt the school authority before the child even starts, because now I have to make sure they’re up to grade level or whatever, whatever. And we encourage them so often, that there are kids in school right now at every level in any topic.
So number one, is that you don’t have to use your authority and change your relationship completely with your child, so that they can become what you imagine to be a good student before they even go to school. You’ve been unschooling for years and then school comes in. And then now there’s just so much processing to do. And you guys all spoke about how that was yours, and your work to do.
And I think you all expressed that beautifully, which leads into the other piece that I was just so happy for you all to come and talk about your experience, because it doesn’t need to change your relationship at all. As we talked about the unschooling principles that can weave right through your days, and that the focus is still on the child, and their choices, and how they’re helping them process how they’re experiencing things.
We talked so much about giving them space, without needing to jump into fix, you really need to give them the space to do their processing, right? And, and then sometimes asking, do you even want me to say anything? Would you like my experience? Would you like to hear what I’m thinking about it?
You don’t have to lose that relationship that you have with all your children, just because one or more choose to go to school. Fundamentally, it’s still an exploration. And yeah, you mentioned being open and curious multiple times, I think that really is so huge, because that reminds us to see things through their eyes, to see how the experience is feeling for them, to see them choose the hard things.
So often, people say you can’t give kids a choice to go to school, they’d never go to school. They’d never do hard things, so much of the societal narrative around kids only doing things when they’re forced to do things is just bunk. Because when you give the kids a space to actually think about what they want to do and make choices, and see how they unfold and continue to make choices, you see them in action, their choices make so much sense, even if we would not make the same choices ourselves, the choices they’re making in that moment, make sense.
And just see them doing so much competent processing and choice making, right? Think of all the experience that they get just with that, in figuring out what they want to do day to day. Anyway, thank you so much.
ERIKA: I think it’s so interesting. And I love how we got to hear such different experiences. And it reminds me of people are different again, every child is so different. And all the teachers are different. And it’s kind of the luck of the draw with that sometimes and what is the school environment like? And so I just think it’s super unique.
And so that’s really fun to hear about. And then also, I just wanted to mention how I know sometimes when a child wants to go to school, it really can trigger an unschooling parent big time thinking I must be doing something wrong. If they’re asking to go there, I’ve been doing all the deschooling, convincing myself about how damaging it was in various ways. And just really questioning the importance of that.
So, I know it’s such a journey for parents to go on in this case. We want to be able to support them in going, without us going back to our previous mindset, which I think is so hard. And so yeah, I feel like I’ve heard some parents say, we’re not unschoolers anymore, because our kids are in school, or, have that kind of feeling.
And that’s why I feel like we always like to keep talking about unschooling as more of that focus on relationships, these kinds of things of giving our kids autonomy and all of that. And so you don’t lose that just because they’re back in school. And so I think that’s really cool.
And if anyone has anything else that came up?
TERRI: I will echo what Pam said of this fear that they’re not going to be ready. How many years did we not work on specific math things or specific writing things or printing or handwriting, and I’m thinking what will it be like? But she seemed to excel every time I talked to her teacher, she’s like, oh, she’s so wonderful. She asks questions, and she’s involved and is very good.
I mean, that could be just her too. But our children are just built for learning, right? They’re built for learning, and they go to school, well, supposedly to learn. So, they’re coming in and the teachers are ready to teach. It doesn’t matter where the kid is. Because again, like Pam said, there are 10 different levels in a class of 15.
Every child is different, even if they went to school from age five, or they’re just starting now. And yeah, if I can just underline that, don’t worry about it. I worried about it too. I just wasted energy worrying about that.
ANNA: Yeah, I think it’s the choice thing. Because I think when someone’s choosing to be there, I think the teachers just love that because these teachers are beautiful people, right? They are there because they love kids, because they want to create a great environment. And so to have a child who wants to be there and is excited to be there and wants to hear what they have to say, that’s going to just set them so far ahead. Even if they don’t know every single thing that someone else next to them knows, I think that energy of that choice makes such a difference.
KINSEY: Okay, that really brought something to mind. She did mention a lot at the time. And we’ve talked about it since then, too, but it was so frustrating to her being in a classroom setting when it was so clear that children didn’t want to be there.
If it’s something interesting that they were doing that she really wanted to participate in, or wanted the teacher to be able to explain how to do it because she wanted to do it. And then there were classroom management things going on. It was really, really frustrating for her. And she would get really frustrated at the other students and couldn’t understand.
But it’s a totally different story, you’re coming from a completely different place. And she’s even seen that in homeschool classes. She went to a zoology class for a semester, I don’t even think she went the whole semester, she was kind of bored with the classroom set lecture style setting.
There was, again, another thing she wanted to just try. And, but it was the same. You could tell that there were children there who really probably weren’t interested in being there. They were there because they were being put there. And it was frustrating. It was really frustrating for her. So she likes being a part of things and group stuff and class stuff when the others are there and choosing to be there. They want to be there. And they want to learn and because that synergy feels good, you know.
PAM: And I will say we saw that too in rec classes, like with Michael’s karate. There were some kids who were there because their parents wanted them to be there, for whatever reason, so it wasn’t their choice. And I remember him having the same kinds of reactions and being so happy to be asked to move up to the adult class a year earlier than typical, because it’s a choice. So everybody there wants to be there and everybody’s into it.
Fundamentally being able to choose where you go makes such a difference. Just look at kids at school and think these are kids. That’s why society in general thinks kids don’t want to learn. You have to make them do things. But that’s just because that’s the situation you’ve put them in and they are reacting to the situation. That isn’t them naturally as a human being, as a child, that is a young human being in that environment. Yeah, so interesting.
ERIKA: It’s really sad to think, most kids don’t have that experience of getting to follow their own interests with other people who also want to follow that interest. It’s such a different environment.
ARI: So, just on that choice piece. There’s also a choice of what to make of the metrics. There’s metrics everywhere. Like my daughter took, I think, three practice tests, three progress tests, and then the state assessment at the end of the year. And she got four report cards. They’re always telling her stuff about herself. But we talked about how you have a choice of how to interpret that, which was not my experience.
For 22 years of my life, I thought this authority knows me better than I know myself. So, I like viewing the assessments very differently, too. It’s huge.
ERIKA: I feel like that just creates a whole different experience, so much more empowering for your kids.
Thank you all so much for joining us. This was amazing. And we hope everyone at home enjoyed the conversation. And we invite you to join all of us in the Living Joyfully Network. It’s a warm and welcoming online community of hearted parents, a nonjudgmental space where you can explore what the ideas might look like day to day in your unique family, and be a part of conversations that are just like this.
Your first month is free. So you can get a sense of whether it’s a good fit for you. And we would be really excited to welcome you to learn more.
And to join us, you can follow the link in the show notes or just go to livingjoyfully.ca and choose network at the top of the page. Thank you so much and wishing everyone a wonderful day.
ALL: Thank you. Bye!
EU413: A Field Guide: Shifting from Control to Connection
Jul 16, 2026
We’re back with the third episode in our series on the podcast in which we’re working our way through Pam’s book, The Unschooling Journey: A Field Guide.
Today, we’re continuing our exploration of the deschooling phase of the journey with stage seven: Shifting From Control to Connection. Last time, we questioned our beliefs about learning and now, we’re questioning our beliefs about parenting.
We talked about how parenting doesn’t have to be adults vs children, that children are capable of making their own choices, that equal doesn’t mean fair, how quitting is not a failure, and how strong relationships are the key. We also remembered to allow ourselves the time and space to grow and change.
Exploring these parenting mindset shifts was so much fun! We hope you find this episode helpful!
We invite you to join us in the Living Joyfully Network, a warm and welcoming online community of like-hearted parents. It’s a non-judgmental space where you can steep in these unconventional ideas around parenting, relationships, and learning, and explore what they might look like day-to-day in your uniquely wonderful family. We offer a free month trial so you can see if it’s a good fit for you. Click here to join us.
Sign up to our mailing list on Substack to receive our email newsletters as well as new articles about learning, parenting, and so much more!
Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about exploring unschooling and navigating relationships.
EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
PAM: Hello everyone, I’m Pam Laricchia from Living Joyfully and I’m joined today by my co-hosts Anna Brown and Erika Ellis. Hello to you both. And we are back with another episode in our “A Field Guide” series.
We are working our way through my book, “The Unschooling Journey: A Field Guide”, which is framed around the hero’s journey and is a weave of myths, contemporary stories, and tales from my own journey. And we are deep in the de-schooling phase of our journey right now. In the last episode of the series, which was episode 408, we dug into some of the popular conventional paradigms about learning and found new truths buried in there.
And as we continue our journey on the road of trials, in this stage, which is stage seven, we are exploring some unconventional truths about parenting. If you’re newer to unschooling and this is your first time exploring these truths, you’re likely dancing with these ideas more intellectually to just understand what they mean, what are we talking about, and maybe some of the further reaching implications that come along with it. And if you’ve been unschooling for a while and feel like you already intellectually embraced these ideas and have been bringing them into your family’s lives, now’s the time to peel back some more layers to build more connections and contacts around them.
Strengthening your web of understanding with your own experiences, building your wisdom around this. And this is where you move towards, what feels to me anyway, believing these truths in your bones, you own them. These are your truths.
So, the first truth that we’re going to explore is that parenting is not adults versus children. And right off with that phrase, there are so many aspects to that one truth. Does the conventional approach of pitting adults against children really make sense for us?
What assumptions are we making if we believe that to be true? Does it mesh with our experiences with our own children and with the families that we see around us? The presumption of parental power over children is definitely widespread in our culture.
We are meant to assume good parenting means power struggles will happen, a battle of wills over whatever the issue at hand happens to be. Yet many of us see right in front of us that it’s a draining and stressful way to live. And that so many adults who grew up in that environment continue to have strained relationships with their parents.
That’s always been a curious one for me. So what if, let’s play with what if we choose to drop the assumption that the one right way to successfully parent is to exert power over your child to ensure that they do the right thing at the right moment? It can be challenging when we have little idea of what else to do.
Because shifting away from power and control doesn’t mean doing nothing. So to that end, I personally found it really helpful on my journey to focus on connecting with my child rather than directing them. That’s what I could do instead.
That helped me shift my energy in the moment to be open to seeing more of what was actually happening rather than that tunnel vision that comes with trying to control something to go one particular way and my way. And to instead get curious about how they were seeing the moment too, recognizing them as other human beings who are with me in this moment, not ones I’m trying to show the right way to go. Anyway, I found this a huge part of my unschooling journey.
ANNA: Oh my gosh, it really is this fundamental shift that changes everything. And I feel like we’re handed these ideas about parenting and what the dynamic between parents and kids should look like. This does not feel innate to me. It really feels like something that’s coming from outside. And I truly don’t believe that it feels good to anyone to be locked in power struggles with the people they love most in the world. And I think people press on because they think they’re supposed to. They think this is how it is. This is what I have to do. Even when they have these niggling feelings inside that it doesn’t feel good and I don’t want to interact with my family this way.
Because it really just doesn’t make any logical sense. Control, manipulation, and punishments do not work well in any healthy relationship. So take it outside of that parent-child dynamic. It does not work. These are not tools we want our kids to use. They aren’t the tools that we use in our close relationships as adults.
So why would we want to bring those tools into the relationship with these beings we cherish above all else? Why would we want to model that? That just never made sense to me.
The idea that really helped me the most was understanding that needs drive behaviors. So behind every behavior is an unmet need. Conventional parenting is about controlling behavior, but it never gets at that underlying need where change can actually happen.
And if we look for that underlying need and address it, what you find is that behavior that may be offending or challenging at the time can really melt away because the need is being met. And not only that, but it deepens our understanding of each other and our connection. Like you were talking about Pam, that’s how we get to that connected piece by understanding each other.
And so for me, that kind of defines the shift from control to connection, from trying to control behaviors, to connecting to understand the needs and address them together. And once there, it just feels better to everyone. And in that environment, we are all learning critical relationship skills that set us up for success, how to express our needs, how to hear another person’s needs, how to problem solve together to meet the needs.
That will play out over and over and over again in every relationship in our life, from the clerk at the post office to our closest partner. And that is where I wanted to spend my energy on us all fine tuning those skills together in a safe environment.
ERIKA: I agree. This is such a game changer. Moving from that power over dynamic that we’re all so familiar with just from living in our culture, to this place of connection. It just makes such a huge difference in my relationship with my children. And really, like you’re saying my relationship with everyone.
And I think it’s surprising to people when they first think about this or first see it in action, because people are not used to this dynamic. I’ve had many experiences, in relating to my kids, friends, with teenagers who are just like, what is this? This is an adult who’s not just trying to tell us to stop, an adult who’s just telling us what to do, or an adult who’s criticizing and judging everything that we do.
I’m an adult who is interested in them and wants to hear what they are interested in. And I just have had so many comments like, this is so weird to me, my parents don’t want to hear about this, that I don’t understand this idea of adults who are nice to us. And I think a lot of teenagers have that experience, it really feels like adults are just against them.
And so I think it’s kind of mind blowing. It really surprises people. But it helps me to remember how I felt when I was a child, and how I felt like I was a whole person, and then people would treat me like I wasn’t, but I knew that I was. And so that feeling is the feeling that kids have.
And so the power over dynamic does not make sense to them, it does not feel good to them. We can have people pleasing kids who go along with it. And then we can have kids who push against it, because it doesn’t make logical sense, and it feels terrible.
And then about those kids we’ll say, Oh, they’re a difficult child or whatever. But kids are people too. We’re all people. And so if I think about how I would have preferred to be treated when I was a kid, that’s a good place for me to start, with respecting children and not wielding my power over them.
And what I’ve found in my family is that it’s just so peaceful. Our interactions have a lot more peace, understanding, and mutual respect. There’s not a reason for them to be pushing back so hard against me. There’s not a reason for them to ignore everything I say, because they think I’m just trying to control them. All of those elements that you typically see in mainstream media relationships between teens and adults, it’s just not there.
It’s just so much more peaceful. And I think that helps all of us, it helps all of our nervous systems to not constantly be in battle with each other. And it has that feeling of, we’re solving problems together, you’re talking about the underlying needs versus me trying to force my will on to someone else regardless of what they want.
And so again, these are our most important, most treasured relationships. So I just think why would we want to bring that power over dynamic into that space that’s so important to us.
PAM: I know, I love that. I love all the little bits you guys brought to it. I love having this conversation. But when you think back on, especially, the teen relationships and the teen years, it’s like, oh my gosh, what a huge difference. I didn’t have a lot of conflict with my parents. But I also basically didn’t have a lot of conversations with them at that point, right?
Because you knew they were, from best of intentions, but only looking through their eyes. It’s about how they think you should do something. So much of it is their baggage from their experiences, right? And I want you to have a better life. It’s almost like inhuman expectations that they share and put on you, like, if I could help my child be the perfect teen into an adult and launch into that whole thing. Those are the kinds of stories that they’re bringing. And yeah, it just feels like one demand after another, right in the conversation.
So you don’t start the conversations for the most part. Because you know where they’re going to go. So I, why set myself up for that, right? So that’s the distance that conventionally you see with teens and parents. If we don’t talk, then I’ll never know what they’re bringing with those stories. I think when you tweak it to the kid, older kids, like wanting to build their independence, absolutely. That doesn’t mean the connection’s different. The connection is still strong. It’s still there. Of course they can do that.
But I think we tend to blame all of that on the teens wanting independence, but so much of it is just because they are bucking against the control, right?
ANNA: Absolutely. It’s just so disconnecting.
PAM: So, the second truth we are going to dive into is that children are capable of making choices. And this is another one I think can be so surprising for people to discover, right? Because conventionally many parents make most of their children’s decisions for them. Just believing that they’re modeling the right thing to do. And then assuming that their children have learned it and will make those same choices when they grow up and are finally in control of their own lives. And again, most often it’s not done with any malice, right? We love our kids and we want them to learn good choices.
But what if we aren’t telling our kids what choices to make? What do we do instead? Again, because it’s not about doing nothing. It’s not about leaving them to their own devices, all these phrases that you hear getting tossed about.
It’s about processing with them. What are their questions in this moment? How are they seeing things? What choice makes sense to them? When we aren’t struggling with our kids and are actively trying to nurture that secure and supportive environment, they have the space to consider things from various angles. And make the choice that makes the most sense to them in this particular moment. And have conversations with us about it both before and after the thing. They learn how to make choices by making choices.
And I think a key thing to remember as we make this shift in our parenting is to recognize that their choice may well be different from the choice that we would make in similar circumstances. Because, again, people are different. People are so different. I love how different people are.
ERIKA: Yes, and I’m so glad you ended with people are different because I really think that is the key here. If I stay stuck thinking that what I would do in this case is the only right answer in that situation, then it can feel impossible to allow my children to make a different decision. But since they’re different people, it doesn’t really even make sense for me to try to impose my preferences on them. Because that takes away their learning. It takes away my learning about them.
They can trust me as a sounding board if they want. But if my kids have the space to make their own choices about their own lives, which, you know, maybe that is a big paradigm shift right there, realizing that these are their lives, not mine. I don’t own their life as their parent. Then they can add to their own web of learning about what works for them. So how their choices play out for them will be so much more meaningful if they were the ones who made the original choice. If they’re just doing something that I suggested, and then however it works out, it’s like, why do they even care?
It doesn’t really have that same sort of importance to them, because they didn’t choose it. I love the point too, about the opposite of us making choices for them is doing nothing. And it really is not that. It’s being present, building that trust, being trustworthy, being non judgmental about the things that they’re interested in and the things that they want to do.
And so they will come to me if they’d like to imagine different scenarios, or if they’re not sure about something. And I know also just by having that connection, when they might need a little push or a little confidence booster, you know, you can do this, you’ve got this. And I know when to trust that even if it doesn’t work out how they thought it would.
And sometimes I even know that it won’t. And sometimes I’m right about that. And sometimes I’m wrong about that. But even if it doesn’t work out, I just believe that what they’re learning about themselves and the trust that it builds for themselves, trust in themselves, and then also trust in me that I’m trusting them. There’s just so much trust building that’s happening. I think it’s just huge.
ANNA: It really is. I love how you describe that interplay. Because I do think that’s a common first reaction. I’m not supposed to be over involved. So I’m just going to go away. And it isn’t hands off, but it is this what you were describing really being in tune with who they are and trusting in their journey, trusting in your relationship with them. Knowing when you can have conversations and when we can add a little something here.
When do I need to just observe or listen or reflect back? And yes, this is where people are different means everything, because we really do tend to think that people see and experience the world in the same way that we do, and that they want to move through the world in the same way that we do. And they just don’t.
So how I said it to myself in the early days was that I just don’t know what’s best for another person, even my child, ever. And that just helped stop me and help me stay open and curious about – what is their unique experience here? What are they getting out of this?
And it also helped me learn about myself and what things were uniquely mine. And I like how you said, Erika, now, maybe I just lost it. But it’s that sometimes you’re right, sometimes you’re wrong. Sometimes it didn’t work out. But it’s not about it working out, right? It’s just about the unfolding of it, because we’re learning all along the way by just taking a step by trying something.
I love that so much that this is even about letting go of some end goal of something that we’re all trying to get to. No, it’s about this exploration and learning about ourselves. And I just find kids are so capable. They know from the start, what they need at any given moment, and if they don’t have a fully formed vision of what that is, they know the next step they want to take, just so intuitively. I saw over and over again, they just don’t have the baggage that we’ve had, that I think can make things so much harder. And I think that baggage, kind of in light of what you were saying, is that we tend to have a fixed goal, like, this is what we’re trying to accomplish, so we have to be tunneling in on this endpoint. And I think kids are much more naturally playing with things and figuring things out.
And then, like you said, Pam, oh my goodness, we learn how to make choices by making choices. I don’t know how many times I said that to people when my kids were little. I’m like, how can you say that you want them to make good choices, but you don’t let them make choices? How are they going to learn how to make choices? And in that process of making choices, we do learn what works for us, what doesn’t, when to slow down, when to go full steam ahead, when to pivot. All these things come from the doing, not from being told which decision to make. That just short circuits all the learning, and begins this external orientation that’s actually really hard to break.
We’ve talked about this a lot too, that once that external orientation is fixed into you, from school, or even family, it’s really hard to step outside of thinking, what does everyone else want from me here? Versus, what do I want?. And I just found kids to be super capable of solving problems. Earlier I mentioned looking for these underlying needs, they have these best suggestions for solving issues.
And I will say, if this is new for your family, it can take some time to develop that trust. Can I really say something here? Am I going to be heard? But it can develop, and with that trust, just like you were saying, Erika, it’s trust, trust, trust all around, everyone feels safe advocating for their needs and really helping each other meet their needs. I just love that.
I know it’s a big shift to think that kids know best for themselves, but I truly believe that each one of us knows best for ourselves, and if we can give it some space and observe, you will start to see how different we all are, and how there is this knowing. And I feel like my kids helped me get back to my own knowing. It’s organically there in them from the start, and as adults, we may have to peel back some layers of conditioning, but I think it’s there for us too.
PAM: Yeah, I think so. I love that. And I mean, as you were saying that, it just became more and more clear. That giving them the space to make the choices that feel like they make the most sense for them, is such an effective way for them to learn more about themselves, which they bring to the next choice and the next choice. It’s just this beautiful cycle.
And then the reminder too, that it can take some time to build up that trust, absolutely, trusting that somebody’s not going to come back and tell them, no, no, no, that’s not the right way, do it this way. Or, see how it turned out after you made that bad choice, I told you so.
Okay, so the third truth is, fair doesn’t mean equal. I found this one really interesting to think through. It was so interesting, we don’t want to show favor to one child over another, right? We want all our children to feel equally loved by us, and conventionally, we extrapolate that to treating our children equally. So, like, all kids get one piece of cake, and you’re careful to make them all the same size. That’s just one little example, but it’s like the epitome of fairness, right?
But again, people are different, so instead, can we consider what the moment looks like through each of their eyes. How does it feel to each of them? So, I remember when I was thinking this through, I tested this little hypothesis. At the next birthday, I asked everybody how big a piece of cake they would like. And I was flabbergasted, nobody said the whole cake. But, so even as kids, I’d get different answers that really depended on how much they’d liked that particular cake or dessert, whatever we were having to celebrate, how hungry they were at the moment, if they were actually even fancying something sweet, right?
So, getting the amount of cake they wanted felt fair to them. They felt seen and heard just by being asked, not just, this is the size that all kids get, and here you go, and, finish it, or you don’t get more. The whole thing, equal does not mean fair. I began to see fairness, not as that quantitative measure of anything that parents give, but as the qualitative measure of the value that each child receives.
So, looking back over different seasons, one child may need more of their parents’ time, while another has a passionate interest that needs more of the family’s money to support it. We may be giving each of our children very different things in any particular moment, that take varying amounts of time, of our effort, of our money, but when their unique needs are being met, they each feel secure and happy, they feel seen and heard as who they are. And, in my experience, they do feel equally loved. What a difference, right?
ANNA: Oh my gosh, all of these things are so important. This one is huge also, and it’s one I cannot get my mother to understand. It’s funny, because she really does think that doing exactly the same thing for all three of us is fair, and that shows that she loves us the same, and that we’re all equally loved. But gosh, being on the receiving end of that just feels super disconnecting, I don’t feel seen and heard or understood at all. But at this point, she’s 92, so there’s no real changing her, so the three of us will just roll with it. But again, there are three of us, we have a huge age gap, brother, sister, and then I’m the baby, huge age gap. We’re all so different.
I think that’s why we talk so much about, people are different, because just understanding how different and unique we all are, just lights people up. They want you to know them, to see them, see their unique gifts and beauty. And so yeah, this whole, everybody needs to be treated exactly the same, does not do that.
So, I knew that with this one, I wanted to examine it deeply and do it really differently with my kids. My girls are very different, I just have two, very different, though, and it really would have been a disservice to think in those kinds of black and white, equal is fair, terms. And I think a big part of this is watching my own language, countering the cultural messages about fair, like you did with the cake, right? And so you created a new fair, which is, hey, how much do you want, and let me help you get that. And I think it takes some digging in, to figure out what the need is in any given situation. Sometimes you can just ask, but sometimes there’s a little more to it.
And also, just to build the culture of trust, that we will work to meet all the needs, and to recognize our choices in each moment. I think the other byproduct of everyone trusting that they’ll get their own needs met, is actually, they’re pretty happy when other people are getting their needs met too, because we can all celebrate each other doing our own things, and because we know that if we want something, we’ll figure it out, there’s no doubt about that.
So, as I was thinking about this one, I’m not even sure you can step away from this kind of equal as fair cultural idea, without moving to a more connected idea of everyone getting their needs met. I think it kind of goes hand in hand, so you don’t have any kind of backlash or misunderstanding about it.
ERIKA: Yeah, when I was growing up, we definitely had a huge, equal is fair, message in our family as well. And I think the funny thing is that, by constantly emphasizing trying to make everything equal among the three kids, we became so fixated on looking for the little discrepancies of, like, that’s a little bit more, that’s a little bit less, and we were also focused on it, and it gives you that feeling of scarcity, right? We were always on the lookout for, that’s not fair, how come she got that, I only got this, like, all of those things.
And so when I contrast my memories of that with my own children’s experience, it’s just so interesting. From the beginning, I was so careful not to ever indicate that our food, my attention, our toys, whatever the resource was, I made sure I was showing them that there’s abundance, they don’t have to fight over it. And so we provided what we could to each one, but it was what they individually wanted, and, like you both have said, people are different, so I’m not just handing both of them the same thing. Maybe sometimes, and in fact, sometimes that really helps too, to create that feeling of abundance, we don’t need to fight over things, but we don’t need all the same things, we all get what we need.
And so, when my kids were younger, my mom would play with them, but it was overwhelming, because if you have little kids, you know, a lot of times they’re both talking at the same time, wanting something, wanting her attention. And I remember she would set a timer. Okay, I’m going to play with Maya for 15 minutes, and then it will be your turn, Oliver, which feels really fair, but it really is just equal, because one might not need the full 15 minutes, and then the other one’s just focusing on what they’re not getting for those 15 minutes.
And so, even though it was at times overwhelming in those younger kid days, I did try to just include them both at all times. So I’m hearing them both, you know, kind of being like, oh wow, oh wow, oh, you know, it’s just the spec, and that’s all they really wanted. They wanted to be able to say what they wanted to say in the moment. It was more chaotic, I think, but they didn’t really notice that, they just knew that I was there, they both felt I was there for them, and they don’t have a feeling of competition between each other, and still don’t, to this day.
And so I feel like many of these paradigm shifts boil down to, people are different. This one feels like that too. If we can recognize that people are different, we know that meeting each person’s needs in our family is going to look different, and that’s what makes a family really interesting and unique.
PAM: Yeah, I love that you guys are both pointing out how so much of these boil down to, people are different. And it’s just recognizing that difference and incorporating it into the different aspects, that really is one of the fundamental paradigm shifts.
Okay, so fourth truth, and that is, quitting is not a failure. Choosing to quit an activity, I mean, think about it just for a second, it is as much a learning experience as starting an activity. So conventional wisdom says that if we let children quit whatever they want, they will never finish something when the going gets tough, right? They’ll just say, oh, that’s too hard, I’m going to quit. And I see you guys both smiling, that is just not what we see, and I bet you, anyone listening, if you watch your kids in action for any length of time, it’s not what you’ll see either.
In fact, if we continue to insist that they finish what they start, what they’re likely learning more fundamentally is to not try out new things unless they’re quite sure they’ll enjoy it. Because they can’t quit it, they’ll have to stick it out, as it were, you committed to this, like, all those kinds of messages. So they’re just going to only want to engage with something that they’re pretty darn sure they’ll be happy to follow through. So what that means is less exploration and less learning.
When we favor connection over control, our children gain lots of experience with wanting to try something, choosing different ways to explore it, and seeing how well those different paths meet their goals. They’ll discover things that they like, they’ll discover things that they don’t like, and they will get a better feel for the clues that help them decide when they want to lean into something and when they want to quit and move on. And each time they choose to quit, they’re learning so much.
Okay, I just got a rush of goosebumps, because I love this point. How does that choice feel moving forward? Do they miss the activity? If they miss it, that’s not a failure, that’s not wrong. What do they miss about it? That’s more learning. What are they doing with the time that quitting the thing freed up for them? Are they enjoying that? Are they enjoying that more? There’s just so much that comes when you quit something, that’s not the end, it’s not like, you therefore are not allowed to think about it ever again, right? There’s just so much processing that unfolds even beyond that one act, and it’s not forever either.
ERIKA: Oh yeah, I think mainstream parenting culture is just so hooked on this. They really want kids to stick it out, and I feel like it’s in this way that we don’t expect ourselves to. And yeah, I think it’s a little short-sighted, right? It’s trying to teach responsibility and commitment and all of these things, but who wants somebody who is committed to something that they’re no longer enjoying? This is a path that does not lead to success, it’s a path that does not lead to good places.
I still carry with me some feelings of failure that I have, due to, you know, in quotes, quitting something. I don’t even like the word quitting, because that kind of makes me feel like, I’ll never go back, I quit it. But I don’t view it like that with my kids, they can stop doing an activity and come back to it later, and there’s really no weight to that. But if I look back, I can see that my choices were valid, and that my life path has ended up being amazing, but looking back at certain things, I still feel the pressure and the weight of that, what felt like failure at the time, just because of the messages that I absorbed.
Sometimes we don’t know how something’s going to feel until we try it. When we do and it’s not a fit, sometimes it’s an immediate thing, right? Like when I tried taking computer programming in college, I was like, immediately, no, my brain doesn’t do this. For some reason, I thought it would, it didn’t. And so sometimes it’s right away, but sometimes we’re just changing and growing over time. We all know, we’re growing and changing so much, even as adults, but our kids are certainly growing and changing, we see it happen right in front of us. And so maybe it’s like, this used to be great, now it’s not anymore.
And so I think it’s just a gift to be able to listen to our inner voice, and make a choice that fits us right now, without that pressure of, this is a forever choice, or this is a failure if I don’t do this. There’s just no one right way to live, and each choice we make, it’s going to lead us somewhere, so we could just try things, quit things, shift gears, dive deep into something, and as long as we’re listening to our own voice, we can trust that we are building a life that works for us. I think we only really get stuck if we’re focusing on the external voices that don’t know us on the inside, and know what we really want and need.
ANNA: It really is a clue, that those outside voices are taking up way too much space, because those outside voices, the peanut gallery about the quitting, they’re not the ones that are going to be there doing the thing, they’re not the ones that know how you’re feeling. So it really is just that, slowing down to recognize that and push it away, because this idea of quitting equals failure, is so ingrained, and it’s so counterintuitive, because you’re right, Pam, if kids are forced to stay with something that isn’t working for them, what they learn is to not try, because, I’m going to be stuck with it forever.
And they’re so young, you know, they don’t know if they’ll like piano or baseball or that specific art class, there’s so many factors involved, and all the time that they’re stuck in something that they don’t love is time they aren’t getting to try other things to find out what they do love. And I love your point, Erika, that sometimes we know right away, nope, this is not for me, but sometimes interest wanes, right, and we grow and we change, and we’ve gotten what we’ve wanted out of it.
I think that’s another thing, sometimes parents get caught up. Oh, but they’re so great at the piano or that sport. But that person, that unique human, has gotten what they want out of that experience, and that’s okay. All of that is okay. And goodness, I mean, I’m 57 and still I want to dabble and try things to get a better sense of if something will work for me. I can get very excited about a lot of different ideas, but until I’m actually doing it, it’s hard for me to say, does it suit me? Does it fit in my life? Do I want this? Is this how I want to be spending my time?
And just quickly, if money is your sticking point here, because that’s usually a big one for people, we have a podcast about this, but David really helped me move through this one with the financial idea of sunk costs. And so the reframe is that we’re paying for the opportunity. When we go into it with this idea of we’re paying for the opportunity to try this, it feels very different.
The value is in learning whether it’s something we’re enjoying versus the value being in getting all of these specific instructions or finishing the class or staying on the team. And if letting the team down is your sticking point, you only have to have played a tiny bit of sport to know that someone who doesn’t want to be there isn’t helping the team at all. And you kind of alluded to this, Erika, like we really don’t want somebody that’s forced to be in any situation, sports or otherwise, or any kind of work.
And all of this doesn’t mean that there’s no discussion though, right? Because sometimes there are discussions before, during, and after. And for us, thinking back, if something was a particularly pricey activity,because that happens and kids are like, I want to do this thing. And it’s a year’s commitment for thousands of dollars. We would talk about how we spend that money, where it comes from, what it impacts. Is there another way to learn more about the activity before we commit to something that’s maybe as long or as expensive as that?
What I found is that kids are so creative and they often could find their own alternative paths as we’re playing with it and looking different things up. And also just talking to the organization, is there a way we can observe or trial it? People are pretty accommodating when you ask nicely. And I know for me, sometimes it is hard to ask for what I need. I don’t want to bother anybody. I know how busy and hard they’re working to do this program, but I really do find people to be understanding and generous when they can be. And that’s the information we need, right? Is it possible?
If not, okay, then that’s another thing to put in the hopper for the decision. And I just love that all of us feel comfortable leaving something that isn’t working. I have seen this play out in all of us over the years. You really just won’t find any of us stuck in jobs we hate for decades, which is so common in our culture. And we know there’s always a choice and there’s always another way. And I think I just have seen it serve my kids and it serves me and David as well.
PAM: Yeah. And I think that’s the whole point, with the relationships, with connection being in the lead, those processes are something that we can do actively. Like, okay, you’re stuck in a job that you really don’t like, you may end up quitting immediately, but also it can be, you’re disliking it more and more and more over time, but we’re having conversations, we’re making plans.
It’s not, well, you know, you have this job, it pays well, or whatever reason we say, oh, you need to stay, et cetera. No, you actually can. That’s the control piece coming right back in. We can instead focus on that connection piece. We can talk through it more and even later, it feels lighter, at least for me showing up to something maybe I don’t like, but I know I’ve got a plan to move through it. I know where I’m going to keep talking. It’s not black, white, like we were talking right at the beginning there. And then there was just one other tiny piece.
And now did I lose it? I’m trying to think what you, oh, oh, it was about, was it about, it was about like, how much we learn, I think, when, oh, yes, it was, it was, sorry. But it’s something that I love to do. When people come to the network. When we have the quitting discussions, et cetera. And, but then, so we talk about like, once they’re interested in something that may be expensive, I love brainstorming all sorts of ways that you can be involved in it without the expensive class. Because so often, certainly at the beginning of our journey, we turn it into – they’re interested in swimming, swimming lessons. Oh, piano, piano lessons, like dance, dance lessons.
That’s our first go-to because that is what we know, right? But there are so many other possibilities that can help them experience the thing that they’re interested in and may or may not at some point want actual lessons for it, but you don’t have to wait for the lesson to become involved. You can go swimming in the public pool. There are just so many possibilities. So I love that piece of just brainstorming ideas and people get very excited and off they go to play and it’s very fun.
Okay. Okay. Finally, truth number five, strong relationships are key.
It’s not about parenting that parent-child power dynamic in which the overarching goal is to turn out a successful adult, right? It’s about being in relationship with your child. This is a lifelong relationship. We’re two human beings. We’re multiple human beings. That relationship shifts over time as they grow and change, as we grow and change.
It looks very different when they’re young versus when they’re in their teens versus when they’re young adults versus when they’re older adults. Even if at any given moment, it feels like things will never change, right? But they really, really do.
You can’t imagine when this is ever going to change. And, and getting focused on and fixating on when it will change is going to get in your way. But that’s a conversation for another day.
A few years ago, I wrote a very long essay about the value of relationships to learning. And I will link in the show notes to anyone who’s interested. But oh my gosh, when I first came to unschooling because my kids were in school, it was like, oh, how are they going to learn, right?
And in the last episode, we talked about paradigm shifts around learning. But I really did come to see pretty quickly that I didn’t need to worry about the learning. What I could focus on was a relationships and this shift from control to connection and recognizing that strong relationships really just drive everything like that was key for me.
ANNA: Yeah, I think when we switch the lens to being in relationship, things just change dramatically across the board. I’ve talked about it before, but I would just often ask myself – Is what I’m about to say or do going to help or harm our relationship? That kept me focused on what was important to me. And that litmus test really served me well.
Because if I’m tending to the relationship, we’re able to navigate the challenges together from a place of connection. So if I’m wanting my kids to be safe. As parents, we kind of see that as a responsibility. They are safest when our relationship is strong and they can come to me versus rules and punishments to try to keep them safe, which serves to disconnect us.
If my kids came upon a situation that seemed a little sketchy, they would ask me about it. They knew I wasn’t going to stop the exploration just off the bat, but that I could be a sounding board and a processing partner as they navigated it. For kids who think they’re going to get in trouble, they may push down those niggling thoughts that this doesn’t feel good or something isn’t right here because they want to learn more.
There’s still something intriguing about it to them and they know their parents might deem it unsafe and stop the exploration altogether. And really that puts them in harm’s way without the support of someone who cares about them. And this applies when they’re young and maybe even more so when they’re teens.
We always had a policy of, I will come get you no matter what, no questions asked if they ever needed out of something. And they also knew they could use me as an excuse. My mom needs me to come home. Because then it wasn’t about me stopping their exploration. It was about giving them tools, tools to get out of situations if they needed it, tools they could use to explore safely. And that’s just the safety lens. But this really applies to all areas.
If we have trusted people in our corner, we’re going to be able to explore and learn more. And I think we can see that in our adult lives too. When we feel supported and loved and cared for, we’re so much more likely to learn and grow. Those basic needs have been met, we’re so much more likely to explore and learn and push the limits of what we can do.
And I think that’s the piece that you’re getting at, Pam, right? This is the basis for learning. These relationships really, that is what makes learning happen and easier.
ERIKA: Yeah, I think those strong relationships with people we trust helps us in every area of our lives. And it’s the same for our children. And I love the parts about how it helps with safety and with learning.
It just makes so much sense. I had a book club with a bunch of unschooling parents, and we were reading Pam’s book together many years ago. And Pam joined us on a call one week. And we were all, I mean, everybody’s like, oh my god, Pam. It was very fun. But I remember having a bit of the conversation, someone felt like they had messed things up, they maybe had an argument with their child, or in some way felt like it was just this negative interaction, it didn’t feel good.
And the question was more along the lines of, how can I do better? How can I stop doing that? And Pam’s idea was about how the repair is the important part. Because we’re trying to maintain this connection and relationship with our kids. But we’re humans, and we’re imperfect. And we’re going to say and do things that hurt our children at times, or we’ll say or do things that hurt other people in our lives at times.
And so we can let that moment crush us and pull us away from them. And we can just dive into negative self-talk about what a terrible job we’re doing. Or we can see those moments as opportunities to own our parts, own our words and our actions, apologize for the impact, and make the repair with the person that we care about.
I get goosebumps thinking about this, because it’s such a more powerful place to be. And it doesn’t require us to be perfect, which we cannot be. But since relationships are so important in all of these ways, when hard things happen in the relationships, knowing that we will be able to move through it, that builds trust between us and the other person. And it gives us more capacity to weather the next challenging thing, whether it’s something outside of our relationship, or the next misunderstanding between each other.
And so I always come back to keeping my relationship strong. How can I feel more connected? How can I give my children the feeling that I understand them, and I’m here for them? And it doesn’t always mean I’m talking with them more, or even spending more time together. It’s really figuring out what do they want from me in this particular season?
And since they’re unique individuals, what is it that’s helping us feel connected in this moment, in this season? And now that they’re teenagers, we do a lot of reflecting on, remember when that was hard, and we got through it? Things like that.
I feel like it really helps us all build resilience and realize that being humans is sometimes hard, and we’re always learning, and I’m always learning. And I feel like me being vulnerable in that way just develops trust between me and my kids. And looking at that, what is going to help us in this moment just to increase our connection is such a valuable place to take a look.
PAM: I love that. I love that you brought that up, because yeah, the whole thing, you’d say strong relationships are key. So I need to be perfect at that. I need to do my best at that. That’s the most important thing. I might have mentioned it at the time, the attachment parenting book I had read, because it’s the thing that knocked me, it’s like, oh really? That around 50% or so of our interactions with our children go awry in big ways or in little ways, and that it is the repair that brings us back, right?
It’s not trying to avoid it, because imagine what someone feels if they think someone else is perfect. Oh, they’re perfect at that. They make all the right choices. That does nothing but put pressure to be perfect on them. They’ll be putting that on themselves as well. I want to be as good, etc. So, understanding that repair piece, that is so much where trust is built.
That we’re coming back, that we’re going to be engaging again. We’re going to be moving through this, and as you said, using those previous examples of times you guys have moved through challenging things, and just bringing those up when new challenging things come up. We may not know how this is gonna resolve, but we know that we’ll find our way through it.
We can trust that. So I love that so much, and thank you. Thanks so much to you both for having this conversation. I feel like we touched on a lot of interesting pieces, so I hope people find it helpful.
Thanks so much to all our listeners for joining us. We hope you enjoyed this dive into the second stage of the de-schooling phase of our journey as we challenge some of our conventional beliefs about parenting, and we invite you to join us in the Living Joyfully Network to continue the conversation.
It is a warm and welcoming online community of like-hearted parents, a non-judgmental space where you can steep in these unconventional unschooling ideas, and just explore what they might look like day-to-day in your uniquely wonderful family. And your first month is free, so you can get a sense of whether the community is a good fit for you. We are very excited to welcome you.
To learn more and join us, just follow the link in the show notes or go to livingjoyfully.ca and choose Network in the menu. Wishing everyone a lovely day. Thanks so much.
For this week’s episode, we’re sharing the next Foundations episode of the Living Joyfully Podcast with Pam and Anna, Recognizing Our Biases.
Let’s talk about cognitive biases. Commitment bias, confirmation bias, and negativity bias are common thinking patterns that can lead to errors in judgment as well as conflict in our relationships. Anna and Pam dive into how they show up in our everyday lives and how becoming aware of our brain’s tendencies can allow us to be more open and curious and to find more joy and connection in our relationships.
We hope today’s episode sparks some fun insights for you!
We invite you to join us in the Living Joyfully Network, a warm and welcoming online community of like-hearted parents. It’s a non-judgmental space where you can steep in these unconventional ideas around parenting, relationships, and learning, and explore what they might look like day-to-day in your uniquely wonderful family. We offer a free month trial so you can see if it’s a good fit for you. Click here to join us.
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EPISODE QUESTIONS
Examine your thoughts around quitting, sunk costs, and commitments. Are those thoughts serving you? Do you and your partner see them in the same way?
Describe a time when confirmation bias stopped you from seeing someone else’s point of view.
Do the Joy Writing exercise for your partner or another loved one. Reflect on how it felt and how it changes your energy when you read it.
TRANSCRIPT
ANNA: Hello and welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast. We’re happy you’re here exploring relationships with us, who we are in them, out of them, and what that means for how we move through the world.
If you’re new to the podcast, we encourage you to go back and listen to the earlier episodes. We started with some foundational relationship ideas and really have enjoyed how they’re kind of playing off each other and building on one another. And if you’ve already been enjoying the podcast, we’d love it if you could leave a rating and review. That definitely helps new people find us.
In today’s episode, we’re gonna talk about a few common cognitive biases that trip us up as we navigate our relationships. Cognitive biases are basically mental shortcuts that our brains will take as they try to quickly process the vast amounts of information in our very complex world.
So, let’s start with commitment bias and the sunk cost fallacy. The sunk cost fallacy is associated with the commitment bias, where we continue to support our past decisions despite new evidence suggesting that it isn’t really the best course of action. We fail to take into account that whatever time, effort, or money that we’ve already expended will not be recovered.
And this could be something as simple as finishing a meal or a movie one of you isn’t enjoying, because you’ve already paid for it, or something bigger, like finishing a college program even though, at this point, you’re pretty sure you don’t want to work in that field at all, but you stay because you’ve committed to it.
This can cause friction in our relationships when we have different ideas about money, commitment, and what those things mean. Very often, the idea to stick it out at all costs was pretty much ingrained in us as children. Somehow we’re a failure if we quit or we would be wasting the money, so we have to stick with it to make these expenditures worthwhile.
It’s really worth examining those beliefs if you see them coming into play in your relationships. Understanding sunk costs helps us see that the money is spent, period. The choice then becomes whether I want to take what I’ve learned about myself and move on to something else I can enjoy or stay with something that I don’t.
Take the money out of the equation because it’s already gone, but what can I get out of that situation? What I get out of is up to me. Just learning that we don’t like something has value. Letting go of judging ourselves or our partners as failing when we decide to quit something goes a long way to learning more about each other. And providing unconditional support as we figure out what we want to do with our time.
The conversation is so much more valuable when we’re looking at the nuances of the situation. And this also comes into play big time with children, doesn’t it?
PAM: Oh, it definitely does. We think we’re teaching our children something positive by insisting they stick it out and follow through on their commitments when we sign them up for a rec class or they join a team. But the message they’re often absorbing is, don’t try new things unless you’re really sure you’re going to like it, or you might get stuck having to do something you really dislike.
It can be so helpful to frame these kinds of choices, not as commitments, but as opportunities to try something new. You’re paying for the opportunity for them to try it out and discover if it’s as interesting as they imagine. Insisting someone not quit doing something they’re not enjoying or just judging them negatively when they do is disconnecting and damaging to the relationship. And to what end? Because they definitely learn something more about themselves through discovering they don’t like the thing and they can use that knowledge along with the time they freed up to pursue something else more in alignment with their interests.
So, when you think about it in the bigger picture, they’ll find the things that they love more quickly this way. And it’s in finding the things they really enjoy where you’ll see commitment in action. Even when things get frustrating or inconvenient, they’ll show up. So, it’s not about teaching commitment, it’s about finding the things they are excited to commit to.
And that definitely applies to us as well. Sometimes it’s easier to think about it in the context of another person, but then to make that shift to realize this applies to us. We don’t need to pressure ourselves to follow through on commitments if our enthusiasm has waned and we are ready to move on.
Instead, let’s celebrate that. Yay! Look what we know. We know more about what we like and what we don’t like, or even more about the environments in which we’re comfortable. That’s another big piece of it too, right?
ANNA: Yes. I love celebrating when we’re learning more about who we are and how we want to move through the world. And I love the idea of paying for the opportunity. It’s such a helpful framework. We’re always learning and I want to support my kids, my partner, and myself in trying things that seemed interesting to us.
I didn’t need to have an attachment to the outcome, because no matter what, there will be learning, even if it’s just, I really don’t like this particular activity.
And so, it goes back to conversations too though, because we can talk about the money involved in trying something and we can see if there’s ways to trial it first, and what would be some of our other options. But I didn’t want to get stuck only looking at decisions through the lens of how much it costs.
It’s one part, but it’s not the only, and I usually found it wasn’t the most important part.
And it was actually my finance major husband who first told me about sunk costs when one of our children wanted to quit a class they were taking and it made honoring where they were and what they were learning so much easier, because I could let go of any guilt or baggage around the money part. Because the money’s already spent, and again, this was work I needed to do for myself, as well. Giving myself permission to try something, even if I wasn’t perfect at it, even if I decided at any point along the way that it wasn’t working for me.
PAM: Yeah, it’s interesting how it’s often easier to give grace to other people than it is to give it to ourselves, but we’re people too. And I wanted just to bring back that point, when we talk about sunk costs, it’s not about ignoring the money. It is once it’s spent, but it doesn’t mean we don’t have that conversation up front. Maybe this is gonna be a big chunk of our budget and we want to look at all sorts of possibilities. If there is a way to get some experience with it before spending the larger chunk, that can be a valid way, too. Again, back to the conversations.
ANNA: That’s the richness of the conversations and staying connected and the baby steps from last week. It all wraps together.
PAM: Okay, so now let’s talk about the confirmation bias, which is the tendency to process information by looking for or interpreting information that is consistent with one’s existing beliefs. This biased approach to decision making is largely unintentional and often results in ignoring what feels like inconsistent information. “That doesn’t make sense. I’m going to toss that.”
It’s hard to be open and curious when we’re filtering information through our existing beliefs. This can sow disconnection in our relationship in a few ways, like discounting the other person’s ideas or always bringing the same old ideas to our conversations. We are less creative.
And in conversations, we tend to listen to the other person with an eye to picking out the bits that match how we see this situation, which we talked about a couple of weeks ago as well. And we’re just waiting until we can jump in with those pieces, rather than hearing the full picture of what they’re sharing.
When our confirmation bias is in full swing, we are not seeing that bigger picture, are we?
ANNA: Not at all. And it really reminds me of our talk about seeing through their eyes from episode four. If we’re only seeing through our eyes, we already know what we’re looking for and it colors everything. I think this comes into play when we’re upset with our partner or children, as well. We tend to see things that confirm our ideas about them.
With our partner, it could be reading into every little behavior and thinking, see, they don’t care about my feelings. Hello, writing stories! And with kids it can be seeing dysregulation and blaming a video game, because we’re thinking that video games are bad, when the dysregulation could just be a need for connection, some food, or some rest, something carried over from school that morning.
With our partners and children, we don’t want to be writing stories about the meaning of things. If we have an idea that’s causing distress, they don’t love me, they don’t trust me, they don’t like this or that, ask them. Open the conversation and enter it with that open and curious mindset we talked about earlier in the month. Upsets can rarely survive the light of inquiry, openness, and understanding.
PAM: Yes. The stories we tell ourselves, right? So, for me, the clue is noticing when I’m telling myself a story about someone else. That’s when I need to step carefully, because I am not them. I don’t know all their personal history or the extenuating circumstances they’re seeing right now. I don’t know they were tired or feeling frustrated by something completely unrelated. I don’t know until I ask.
Because when I’m telling myself a story, it is pretty natural for it to be all about me. And definitely that works pretty well when I am talking about myself, how I’m feeling, how I’m seeing these things. But it can take me down all sorts of unhelpful paths when I’m making assumptions about how others are seeing me.
As you say, it is so much better to have the conversation with them and just check in and see what’s going on.
ANNA: Yes, just get out of our head and get into that moment with our partners and loved ones.
Okay, so the last one we want to touch on today is the negativity bias. So, the negativity bias is the tendency to remember negative events more starkly and more frequently than positive events.
So, this isn’t inherently problematic since it’s a great way to learn from mistakes and avoid negative experiences in the future. You can see it’s actually a survival skill. We quickly learn what can hurt us and what’s dangerous, and we actively avoid those things. Our brain is wired to give us those things at a higher priority in order to keep us safe. We haven’t really evolved out of that primal need to evaluate safety in our environment.
But here’s the thing. Most of us don’t have tigers lurking around the corner, so bringing that intense survival energy to things like our relationships can cause a lot of heartache. We don’t want to constantly be thinking about every negative thing that has happened. It keeps us stuck in the past and doesn’t give our loved ones a chance to grow and change.
PAM: Everybody just sit with that for just a little bit. It is so true that negative experiences stay with us longer and are recalled more quickly in a challenging moment. And, as you say, there’s reasons for that.
And not only does it play out on that personal level. We see it on a societal level, as well. Society in general is focused on the negative things that are happening. So often, those are the stories that are widely in the news and on social media. We find ourselves surrounded by negative stories, which fills us with more negative events to recall at a moment’s notice, round and round. It can become a lens through which we see the world. Our negativity bias seeping into our confirmation bias.
ANNA: Yep. And bringing awareness to these biases helps us understand that we need to be very intentional about changing our focus. Things like joy writing and gratitude practices can help bring our focus to all the things we love, all the things that are actually working.
So, when I’m working with couples, I ask them to do a joy writing exercise. Basically, you each write down a list of things you love about the other, what you love about the relationship, beautiful moments, lovely gestures, things that can fill you with love when you’re thinking about them. Keep it handy, have it on your phone or somewhere you can read it daily.
Rereading it changes our energy and it changes how we interact with our partner, how we see our relationship. It keeps the focus on all the wonderful things there and it fosters that connection. And from a place of connection, we can move through the bumps of life with more ease.
PAM: That is so, so true. Just the act of remembering the good side, alongside the challenges. It doesn’t mean ignoring the challenges. It’s not, let’s just pack those in a box and forget about them. But remembering that so much of our lives are all these good things, too.
So, as you mentioned, gratitude practices can also foster that loving energy towards our partner and our kids. We can make a point of writing down a few things that we’re grateful for related to our partner and kids each day. It need only take a couple of minutes and we can share it with them too.
This practice helps us notice the positive bits in our day and in our relationships, because they are there. And it’s a great way to counteract that negativity bias.
ANNA: Yes. And incorporating these practices and just keeping an eye towards what’s working, what feels good, will help train your brain in a way that’s more useful in our current environment. You’ll still have the skills of recognizing danger, but will be less likely to label something that’s just a bump in the day, or the relationship as something serious that feels very threatening.
PAM: That’s such a big difference there. Put it in the context, in the context of your whole day, not having this one moment that felt uncomfortable or challenging and having that override or color, the whole rest of your day, discount all the other bits that happened that were connecting, that were fun. They have so much value, too.
ANNA: And I think just understanding that our brains tend to do that helps us just put that little check in place. Like, okay, wait a minute. Am I forgetting about all the good things and only focusing, because that’s what brains like to do? And so, then we’re able to take those additional steps and do those practices.
So, here are some questions that you might want to ponder as you explore how these cognitive biases might be playing out in your relationships. So, first, examine your thoughts around quitting, sunk costs, and commitments. Are those thoughts that are serving you? Do you and your partner see them the same way? It could be some really fun discussions to have there.
Describe a time when confirmation bias stopped you from seeing someone else’s point of view. And this, you may even have to watch for, because it’s so natural that we don’t even notice, but just start seeing it as you’re having conversations. Are we looking for what we want to see?
PAM: Yeah. And that’s where that open and curious piece comes in. That’s just that little reminder, for me anyway, just to not get stuck in there. There’s other possibilities.
ANNA: Yeah. Love it. Okay. And do the joy writing exercise for your partner and other loved ones.
Reflect on how it felt and how it changes your energy when you read it. I cannot tell you just how powerful this has been for so many people that have tried it and just really have enjoyed it.
PAM: Yeah, I think that that it really does help just change our energy. Reminding us, oh yeah, these are all true. It’s not like we’re making up anything or trying to fool ourselves. Literally these are the things that we love about our partner, our children, the fun things that we’re doing, the fun pieces of the day.
And the one thing I want to mention about these questions is I love that we’re going through and asking them now. And I really encourage people to take some time to sit with them, because it really is much more helpful I think to be thinking about these things outside of a particular challenge. But don’t wait until all of a sudden y’all are arguing about, oh my gosh, our child wants to quit this activity, to have a conversation about sunk costs. Like you were saying, that could be a very fun conversation.
When it’s heated about a particular thing that’s happening right now that feels urgent and feels like it needs a quick decision, that can be a hard time to have that kind of conversation. But if we can start playing with these ideas and asking ourselves these kinds of questions and playing through them without the pressure or urgency of something happening right in this moment, that can be so very helpful.
ANNA: Right, because you’re steeping in these new ideas and then they’re there for us.
When these challenges come up, we can recall back like, hey, I want to put it through this lens. I want to blow back a little bit and look at open and curious and see what else is at play here. I want to know that I have plenty of time. All these things that we’re talking about can just be things that you keep in your back pocket as you go through and you’ll start seeing how they’re just helpful tools that help you navigate these things, so we don’t have the spirals or the big blowups about it.
So, I hope it’s helping. It’s been a lot of fun to talk about, anyway. So, thank you so much for listening and we hope to see you next time. Take care.
PAM: Yes. Bye, everybody.
EU411: On the Journey with Sam
Jun 18, 2026
We’re back with another On the Journey episode! Pam, Anna, and Erika had a powerful conversation with Living Joyfully Network member and unschooling dad Sam.
Sam shared deeply about his journey with his daughter through autistic burnout. We talked about Sam’s experiences in both PDA and unschooling parent communities, the depth of the inner work that this journey involves, and some of the major paradigm shifts that Sam has made along the way.
It was a really meaningful conversation and we hope it resonates with you!
We invite you to join us in the Living Joyfully Network, a warm and welcoming online community of like-hearted parents. It’s a non-judgmental space where you can steep in these unconventional ideas around parenting, relationships, and learning, and explore what they might look like day-to-day in your uniquely wonderful family. We offer a free month trial so you can see if it’s a good fit for you. Click here to join us.
Sign up to our mailing list on Substack to receive our email newsletters as well as new articles about learning, parenting, and so much more!
Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about exploring unschooling and navigating relationships.
EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
ANNA: Hello, everyone. I’m Anna Brown from Living Joyfully and today I’m joined by my co-hosts Erika Ellis and Pam Laricchia, as well as our special guest today, Sam. Hello to you all.
I really appreciate Sam joining us today. He’s a member of the Living Joyfully Network and it’s been really nice getting to know his story and watch how things have unfolded. He brings that thoughtful, intentional energy that I love about the Network. That energy helps fuel my own personal growth and create a beautiful, supportive environment where we can dig deeper and question the prevailing narratives.
So, Sam, to get us started, can you tell us a little bit about you and your family and what everybody’s interested in right now?
SAM: Sure, yeah. Well, I live in Minneapolis with my wife Kate and my daughter. I recently retired from work early. I did the early retirement thing. I had been working part time for the year previous to that.
And so, I guess I can start a little bit with what my daughter’s into. I mentioned to her that this was going to be one of the questions and she said interior design and interior decorating and games. And then I would add a few things to that, too. Right now, she’s super into making slime, large amounts of slime in many different permutations.
There’s lots of experimentation happening with different ingredients and add-ins and colors and that kind of thing. So, that’s kind of fun and messy. She has a wide doll collection and she’s been really into making her own rooms. She calls them mini rooms and they’re essentially like dollhouse rooms, like a kitchen or a bedroom.
She makes one room at a time and adds them on to each other and buys these little, tiny little Mini Brand versions of real life products that she stocks in the doll refrigerator really intricately. And I guess that ties into her interior design interest, as well.
She’s super creative. She really likes to do drawing. She makes videos and she actually, I’m kind of amazed at some of the videos that she makes because she’s, I don’t even think I said she’s nine. And so she uses her iPad to make videos and she has her own YouTube channel.
She has two YouTube channels, which are not updated too frequently. It’s something she’ll get really into and then completely abandon and then six months later be really into it again. And so, that’s fun. And then she likes building forts. She likes playing with our dog Lucy, and various other things. And she watches videos. She loves YouTube and learning. She’s really into watching videos about Minecraft and Toca Boca World, which is the other game that she’s really into at the moment.
She watches videos about all kinds of things like science and history. It’s interesting. She’ll frequently tell me very random facts that she’s learned by watching videos and I, being skeptical, when I look at the videos she’s watching then I’ll Google it and be like is that really true? And it’s interesting because it almost always is accurate and so that’s been an interesting learning for me because I’m the kind of somebody who’s avoided YouTube and never wanted to have anything to do with it for many years. And now I watch quite a bit of it just to keep up with what she’s doing. So that’s kind of fun.
And my wife Kate, she works in public policy. She’s an environmental climate scientist, and she works on making and contributing to the creation of policy to help us in the state of Minnesota adapt to climate change. And she is super engaged and super smart. And she also likes to compete in triathlons a couple of times a year.
She and I are very different in the sense that she needs to have some kind of external motivator to do things and so she really thrives on deadlines and procrastination and that sort of thing and I’m completely the opposite of that. And then we just hang out a lot. We do a lot of hanging out at home, reading, and that kind of thing.
And then, for me, I always have a hard time talking about myself, but I read a lot. I’m currently really interested in reading 19th century British novels, and I’m not sure why, I’ve just been really obsessed with it over the past year or so. So, I’m always reading a couple of books. I’ve really been into reading poetry from different periods, and I’ve been writing for most of my life. My first career was as a professional writer, which kind of drained the fun of writing out of me for a good long time. But I’ve been writing, some creative writing and some poetry which I haven’t done in a very, very long time so that’s been really fun.
And then, my daughter and I, we just hang out pretty much every day. And we just kind of roll with it and see what happens. We don’t really have a lot of plans. We never really know what’s going to happen. But that’s how we approach it, one day at a time.
PAM: I think that’s so fun. I loved the little YouTube story that was tied in there as well. I love the interest piece for you wanting to see what she’s enjoying about this because it’s a way to connect with her, no matter the interest.
And I loved that you could share the various things that she’s watching rather than saying, she loves YouTube and cutting it off there. It makes such a difference like you were saying, even just in that little synopsis, the variety of things that she’s engaging with, right?
SAM: Yeah, well that was a big change for me because at the beginning of our unschooling journey when we started allowing unlimited screen time, which was a huge, huge hurdle for us to get over, for me to get over. I was definitely in the mindset of, oh my god, she’s just watching YouTube all day and not caring what it was. It was just YouTube bad, whatever, internet stuff. And now, she doesn’t like me to watch with her but she’s happy to have me, like not review but just kind of check out what she has watched and then we talk about some of the videos and I tell her what I liked and she tells me what she was into and we talk about which things were silly or which things were interesting.
So, that has been a huge growth for me to just spend more time to really understand what these things are that she’s interested in, in a level of detail that I can actually see it and get it and relate to it in some way, rather than dismissing it, which is what I would have done previously.
ERIKA: I loved all of your shares about all of your interests. I always think when people share about family member interests, it’s like, that’s only three people in the whole world and you’re already covering so many different areas and there are so many ways and things are kind of interacting and you’re learning from each other and you’re all so different. And I just love that and I loved the slime phase. We had that big time with my youngest too and it’s pretty messy, but it’s a lot of fun.
ANNA: I know the slime thing was actually after our time. Did you have slime, Pam? We didn’t have slime. It wasn’t a thing. I have friends from the Network that have younger kids that I get to visit and it’s a whole thing, right? It’s just unbelievably amazing and messy, but it’s incredible.
I love that. And just that again, the diversity of interest with the three of you is just, wow, this is how rich life is when we’re just exploring these things that are interesting to us.
PAM: I love that. And so, Sam, you kind of alluded to this, so I’d like to dive in a bit more, but I would love to hear a bit more about how you actually discovered unschooling and what your family’s transition to unschooling looked like.
SAM: This will be good to talk about because this was definitely a big journey for us and not something we ever would have imagined, conceived of, anticipated in any way. And so I guess we were just, I mean, for me, I hadn’t really put that much thought into it. Maybe this sounds terrible, but I didn’t really think that much about what it would be like to be a parent. And I had no plans, I had no ideas of how it should be, or the right way to do it or anything like that.
I just kind of, I don’t want to speak for Kate, but I just made assumptions that like, okay, you have a kid, kid goes to daycare, until they’re old enough to go to kindergarten, and then they go to kindergarten. And so, we were following that path. And I think we’re lucky that we found out about this daycare pretty close to our house that was, I think, a generally positive thing for our daughter at the time.
It’s a Montessori daycare. And it ended up having just some really wonderful teachers, but also some really wonderful friends, and several of whom live just within a couple blocks of us, and have become, in her short life, lifelong friends of our daughters. So, her closest friends in the neighborhood she’s been with since they were three months old, which thinking back on it, I’m like, oh my god, I can’t believe we dropped her off when she was three months old, and just went to the office.
But you know, at the time, Kate and I were both in very busy parts of our careers. And I was very, very career focused. And, generally, our daughter did great with other kids, did great in daycare. And then there were a few times like towards the end when she was around five, and we were getting close to the kindergarten transition, she started having days where she just really didn’t want to go. And she would be literally kicking and screaming. I would literally carry her kicking and screaming, which is something that looking back on and I’m kind of mortified that I did. But my mindset at the time was, this is not optional. I’ve got to go to work. And you’ve got to go to school, this is the deal. Welcome to the world. And I really felt like I was leaving her in a safe place.
And then we live about two blocks from a public school, and we are here in Minneapolis, and we really wanted to send her to that school, and we just kind of made that choice. We didn’t talk to her about it. We didn’t tour schools. And then it turned out most of the neighborhood kids including all her friends were going to the school that’s just a mile down the road but it’s in the suburban district.
So, when she was at this school in kindergarten she didn’t know anybody there. And socio-economically and demographically the school that she went to for kindergarten is very different from her. And it was pretty rough. She encountered a lot of bullying. She encountered a lot of what was probably traumatic talk about what they call live shooter drills, and the discussion around that was extremely explicit and extremely scary.
And so it was overall not a positive experience for her and within the first month, she was refusing to go and really upset about it. And we realized pretty quickly, though we did this whole, “No, you’ve got to go, there’s not a choice.” We did that for a little while and then finally she was literally just begging us to send her to the other school.
And so we said okay, we’ll do that. It still didn’t occur to us that not going to school was an option. That was definitely not on the radar, but we were able to transfer her to the other school. They put her in the class with her friends, and she had this great group of friends. It seemed like everything was fine. It seemed like it was a total 180. We really didn’t have any more school refusal. The rest of the kindergarten year seemed good.
And then we went through first grade and that seemed good. Summers were challenging because there’s this whole world of summer camps that’s super competitive and you have to sign your kid up for camps in January for the summer and my work schedule was so intense, and I was traveling a lot for work.
So, Kate was alone with our daughter for a lot of the time. And so we signed her up for every week that we could. In retrospect, that was pretty intense. So, at the end of first grade. And while we went through first grade there were various signs, but nothing that was really telling us definitively that this is not working for her. And she really had a wonderful teacher in first grade, who really got her. And what we realized is that the teacher was really providing our daughter with a lot of accommodations, without her or us having to ask for them, and sort of would bend the rules of the school, just to make her more comfortable.
And so that was super helpful and, and I think also pretty unusual. But after first grade ended that summer. We signed her up for a camp, a couple camps, and something happened in the course of that, where she really didn’t have a break at all between school and the camps, and she hit a wall, and we just started to see a dramatic, dramatic change in her.
That was really frightening, because it was so intense. And so, at first it was not wanting to leave the house, I’m not going to go to camp, that sort of thing. Which was okay, by that point we were already into the pandemic so my travel had stopped and that was actually a big relief. I was still working a lot but I was at home, so it wasn’t like the end of the world if we couldn’t drop her off somewhere.
But we started seeing a lot of physical aggression, and just anger and rage really. And it was something that was just very scary and challenging. And then that summer between first and second grade, she stopped wanting to get out of bed, and would not get out of bed the entire day. Wouldn’t comb her hair, bathe, brush teeth, none of those things were happening. It really felt like we’re in a crisis. And so, we sought medical help.
But she wouldn’t go, she would not go to see a doctor. So we did virtual sessions with psychiatrists and that was extremely unhelpful. We were really approaching it through this medical model of, this is a crisis, our daughter is having some kind of like so far unexplained psychiatric episode.
And like the psychiatrist basically said, you should commit her to some kind of inpatient thing. Everything about that just felt wrong to me.
That was the point at which it was like, okay, we’re not going to talk to the psychiatrist anymore. This whole time I’d been Googling kind of ferociously trying to figure out what’s happening here. What I came across was all this content about PDA. It felt like, wow, this really sounded like it was describing what we were experiencing. So, I signed up for a class for parents who have PDA kids. And that was an interesting experience.
On the one hand, it was like this huge relief because the class was from a parent who had gone through this experience and had taken a very scientific approach to trying to understand what was happening and how to readjust their lives to deal with this. In that class, which I generally had very mixed feelings about, but that’s the class where I heard the term unschooling for the first time. So to get to the question, I guess, that was definitely a phrase that I had never heard.
In this class, there were 400 parents in this virtual class. I was just astonished at how many parents there were. And we would have these calls and the stories that people shared were all very similar, definitely very relatable.
The thing I noticed is that everybody similar to us was approaching it as a crisis, like as a problem that has to be solved. One of the big lessons from the class was this is not something you can change. This is something you have to adapt to.
So that definitely got me thinking and it was a real shift of mindset for me. It’s like, okay, this is it, life is not going to be the way we thought it was. And we have to make changes. And it was the facilitator of that class who first mentioned the term unschooling. There was lots of talk about homeschooling because so many of the kids whose parents were in this program were refusing or unable to go to school. In the school world, they label it school refusal.
And I think the way I would talk about it now is just, unable to go to school really. So, then I started Googling unschooling and wondering, what the heck is this? Because I was not interested in being a teacher. I actually tried being a teacher in an early career. I had several, false starts, I guess I would say. And one of them was in education and I kind of left that thinking, okay, that is not something I can do. I am never going to do that again.
My conception of homeschooling, and I think Anna, you were just talking about this in one of the recent discussions was like, homeschooling means you’re sitting at the kitchen table with workbooks and curriculum and you’re going through the whole thing. And I was like, I don’t want to do that. And I’m 99% sure that my daughter is not interested in that. And so that’s where the unschooling thing came in, I’d like to learn more about this.
And so through Googling, I found this podcast (Exploring Unschooling) and it was a totally life-changing experience. I think just listening to the podcast, because I think the thing that really struck me is that I was immersed in this PDA community, which was very much using the medical model for looking at things and the deficit lens of looking at things. And then in the podcast, you all were taking this totally different lens.
You’re not doing this because it’s a last resort and you have no other choice. It’s this intentional way of approaching life differently. And then just kind of turning all these things that I never questioned, like school is required and just asking, well, why? Let’s actually think about that. Is that actually true? What’s the goal of education and what are other ways of achieving that goal? And so just listening to stories of parents who were making this choice was really a really transformational experience.
And then I went back into this class that I was taking, this class spanned a period of three months. And so in those three months was a huge learning for me, I would go back into these calls with these other parents and their voices are all just filled with panic and fear. And I was just like, I’m not feeling that anymore.
When I went into it, I was all panic and fear. That was the deal. And then after listening, and I probably listened to like 150 episodes of the podcast, I’m just walking around the house, the headphones all day, just episode after episode, after episode, everything I’m doing, I’m listening to it. I was just like, I’m not afraid of this anymore.
Then I joined the Network, really not knowing what to expect, but one thing that really struck me when I joined the Network is nobody in the network was using any of the same language that I had learned in my PDA curriculum that I had found. But a lot of people were describing similar things that sounded like similar experiences.
And I was just like, wow, this is like a parallel universe over here where we’re dealing with the same human things, but this group of people is taking a completely different mindset and a completely different approach to it. It’s not a crisis. It’s not a problem.
We’re just rolling with the phases of life and making adjustments that we have to make.
I got really excited about unschooling and I was like, this is great. And then I wanted to be talking about it all the time, but I quickly found that people who are not unschooling are not interested in hearing about unschooling.
That is a lesson I learned very quickly. So, it’s not something that we talked about at the park or at the neighborhood gatherings very much. So, that’s kind of the long winded story of how we arrived at this point.
ERIKA: That gives me goosebumps.
PAM: I know. I do appreciate you sharing the details of it because I mean, it is a very familiar journey for me. I remember the years, the two years where we had a great teacher. I was in the same place, working with my kids. I had no clue that this was a choice. This was something we had to figure out and having those teachers who were not as rigid and who saw my child and celebrated them and thought it was really cool and just accommodated. It was only night and day when then the next year you’ve got another teacher who was very, very fixated.
But yeah, I super appreciate that whole journey and the comparison, the language and the approach, right. With these kids, I don’t even like saying these kids, but with these kinds of situations, this way of moving through the world. We don’t see the deficit side because I hadn’t thought of it that way, but it is completely a choice. It’s like we’re introduced to it maybe because something has gone sideways. Because we grew up with the narrative of, this is the way we do things. We have kids, they go to daycare, they go to school, et cetera. And then something knocks us to ask that first question.
But yeah, once you open that up and then you recognize all the different questions that you can ask and that shift to just being in the world with the people who are part of our families and, and it’s hard to explain fully respecting them and just living together and coming and going and, and understanding each other, and shifting to that perspective versus, oh my gosh, here’s all the accommodations I need to make to try to fix it. And then eventually, hopefully, they’ll work enough that we can go back to the life that we had.
It’s still holding that because it’s revisiting the questions, revisiting the assumptions that we have been basing our life on that this is the good stuff to do. And what are all the things, even the super hard things, that we have to do to get ourselves back to that.
ANNA: I think one of the things I really appreciate was you sharing the whole journey, because I think it will actually resonate with a lot of people. Just hearing how many people were in that PDA group is kind of amazing to me. But one of the things I love, when you first came to the Network and other people that have had a similar journey, because like you said, you’ll hear similar stories to yours very often in the Network, but it’s that first moment of relief, because I think so often you’re really focused on all the things that are happening that feel terrible.
This is so serious, this is so terrible, but then really opening up to really seeing the gifts in your child. I mean, oh my gosh, from the beginning, your daughter just delighted me, she just had so many interesting things about her and the way she moved through the world. And I think when we can bring that perspective and I think parents are craving that, right? It’s why those teachers that were so kind felt so great because they saw the thing that you see in your child.
And I think that is something that I love about the Network where we just celebrate all these amazing kids for the things that they bring to the table because it’s amazing. We don’t need to make everybody look the same and do the same thing. So, I loved that piece and just that little spark that happens when it’s like, yeah, she is amazing. And I love that we can be in a place where we can all see that.
ERIKA: Yeah. When you’re too in the tunnel vision of a certain paradigm, the school paradigm where it has to look like this, and it’s not looking like this, and this is an emergency, it can be really hard to even imagine anything outside of that.
But right, I feel like I remember when you first came to the Network, just the idea of what if there’s nothing wrong, actually, and we just are who we are and that’s okay. I think that feels so good, especially when we’re hearing all these messages about something being wrong.
And then, for me, with my neurodivergent kids, I just have found being in the Network so validating and reinforcing and positive for me, because I just keep seeing all these similar experiences, they get it, they’ve been there with these same things. And everyone is just really appreciating the uniqueness of each of each child. And that just feels so much better.
And I mean, we could try to fix things for our whole lives and just be in constant conflict, and nothing would necessarily even get better or change. And so, I think it’s just so much nicer to be in a nice relationship, in a positive relationship with their kids. And I know you’ve talked about a lot of shifts already.
But the question I wanted to ask is, what has been like the biggest mindset shift for you in this journey so far?
SAM: I think it’s got to be around the school. There are so many things around this. And I was thinking about this on the most basic level, just the idea that school was optional, or that there were different ways to approach it was a big learning.
I think one thing that I left out of the story is that as we were approaching second grade, our daughter was enrolled. And as we were getting closer and closer, I just couldn’t picture how this was going to happen.
I think at the end of the summer, on the day after Labor Day, which is when school starts, it was like, I don’t think things are going to be magically different. And we can’t just pick up and go back to where we were. But our daughter was, I think she also had the message already ingrained that school was not optional. And so she did rally.
We went and got her haircut, and we got clothes. And she went that first day. First, we went to the open house. And that went okay, and we met her new teacher. And then she went to the first day. And everyone in the school said that they were amazing.
And that second day, she woke up, and she said, “I am not going back to that school.” And it was firm, this is the deal. And so then I went through a lot between that early September, and probably mid October, which is right around the time, this would have been 2024, which was right on the time that I joined the network.
I was calling our daughter in sick every day. And keeping in touch with the school, having weekly calls with the school, trying to explain to them what’s going on. And then I switched her from the school district that we had enrolled her in, and had a virtual only. It is a really innovative virtual-only option that they developed during COVID, and then really invested a lot in. And it seemed really cool, actually. So we switched her to that program. And that did not help at all.
She was not going to get on those classes. And she was not going to log in. But I had calls with the teacher every week. And the teacher told me, “I went through the same thing where my daughter refused to go to school. I am totally with you. I totally get it. I totally get where you are.” And I mean, these people at the school could not have been more supportive. But then as soon as we hit the 30 day mark, they were like, well, it’s been 30 days.
And now we got to call the county, we got to get the county in there. Suddenly, it was like, okay, we’ve been accommodating, but time’s up, it’s been 30 days, and it can’t go on for this long.
At that point, we had had our daughter assessed for neuropsychological evaluation and had all of these assessments done and found a really knowledgeable doctor who specialized in autism in girls.
And I felt more confident that what our daughter really needed was rest, and was in a state of burnout that she was not going to recover from quickly. And the psychologist said you should think about it as a year, at least, that she’s going to be in this reduced-capacity state. But it wasn’t until the school said, we got to call the county, that I was like, okay, we’ve got to make a decision.
And at that moment, the decision is we are not going to try to work through this medical deficit lens to try and get our daughter back on track to return to the environment which put her into this state. And so, I think it really took that for me to have that internal shift or transformational kind of moment of, we have to make a different decision.
And so, from that point, instead of being like, okay, this unschooling thing sounds great and we’re gonna do this until we no longer have to, I think that’s where my mindset had been, and then I moved into more of what I would call acceptance of no, no, no, we’re going to really choose this path. And it wasn’t until that point that I really started to embrace unschooling and get excited about it and actually think about it as a deliberate choice.
And I think the other shift that I think is important was more about me and my worries and my career, because I have always had this sense of financial insecurity and just kind of fear around that. When I was insisting that she go to school, forcing her to go to school, it’s true that I had to go to work and it’s true that my work was very busy and that I had to travel a lot for work, but I didn’t have to work that job. And that was really the way I had approached work.
I worked really hard. Work was a top priority in my life before meeting Kate and thinking about having kids and all that. And I was achieving a lot of recognition and success at work and there was no part of me, any new opportunity that I was given at work I said yes to any new challenge I was given.
I said yes to anything. If I was given negative feedback at work, I was going to overcome that and do whatever I had to do. And I just was in this mode of thriving on the validation systems of the corporate world and just moving up that ladder.
And I had ended up in a leadership position and there was really no part of me that was like, this is optional or I don’t have to. It was like, no, I have to do this. And so, I think that when I started to go through the shift about school, it really made me think about, why am I spending so much time at work? When I was working from home, I had like 12-14 meetings back-to-back on Zoom every day. And I was anxious and frustrated all the time and I was super stressed out and it’s like, no matter how hard you work, there’s always more work. It’s just never finished.
And so, I started to think that I don’t have to have this career path. It just doesn’t have to be this way. And so, then I started making decisions at work to pull back from work and first I changed into a lower stress job. I stepped down from the leadership role and I took a different kind of role and then I reduced my hours and then eventually it was like, I’m just going to stop working. And there’s definitely a privilege involved with that and there was also, it really was in in the case of our family, I think it was a huge mindset mindset shift for me about how important work really is and how important money is and what you need to do versus what you want to do and all these different things. So that was like a pretty huge thing.
And I think that’s the other piece. I often think this related to unschooling now, is that I feel like and I really like that the name of the network is Living Joyfully, because I feel like the term unschooling just doesn’t quite do it, because school is just one part of it or how we approach learning. It’s just one part of it. But really it’s been a total change of how I approach life on a daily basis, right? In big ways and in small ways and so that’s really just a huge transformation that this journey has involved for me.
PAM: I love it and yes, the name of the Network was very intentional because absolutely unschooling was my window to this world. It was that the school was the first question when I eventually discovered that it wasn’t the law that there were other options than just dropping your kids off at school or else you go to jail. And it is just so brilliant how you asked that question. You start diving into that and how it opens up It’s like oh, well if I can question school, maybe I can question work.
As I am questioning school I am starting to have different perspectives and thoughts about relationships and the value of relationships and the value of my child, a different way of seeing my child as a human being versus somebody I need to train and who needs to learn that you go to school and then that becomes work.
I remember there was a season where I noticed when I was writing blog posts many years ago that every blog post I wrote that started about unschooling, obviously, by the end of a thousand words, fifteen hundred words was and that’s life because really the perspective can be applied across every aspect of life.
It’s not just school, yes or no, when you want to dive deeper. When you discover it’s not so much that I need to fix all these things so that the kid can enjoy school so that I can enjoy work. Thinking there’s something wrong with me if I’m not making these conventional systems work for me versus questioning the systems in the first place And just I love the journey of how you tweaked it, right? It’s like oh, I’m gonna change my job to release some of the stress.
Now I’m gonna lower my hours. That was the same approach with school, right? Those 30 days you’re just calling in sick because it’s keeping your doors open, keeping the possibilities open until there was a moment where that door is closing and now we really want to make an actual choice. Are we going to force through this or are we going to decide to step out of that system?
ANNA: I think, for me, I mentioned at the top, questioning the prevailing narratives and I think that’s the big piece for me. We have a lot of narratives, school is a have to and school is hard, you just have to do hard things and work is hard and you have to do hard things and we need to be productive and all of these kinds of beliefs that end up not necessarily serving us individually or as a family but end up serving the system that we’re in. That is one of my favorite parts of this, really just questioning all of it and you may still choose to work in some way or to go to school in some way but boy does it feel different as a choice and an intentional path than it does as a have to and the drudgery.
That is why it’s called Living Joyfully, why we so intentionally chose that and why Pam really really resonated for me. It’s questioning, why do we have to have these hard things? Why does life have to be hard? Why does work have to be hard? Why does school have to be hard? Maybe it doesn’t.
And so once we can start asking that question and really examine the answers, I think everything changes so dramatically.
ERIKA: Yeah, I love that your answer to the question is basically everything. I just completely changed into a new person. I totally remember that part of my journey as well. When it’s just this ripple effect of one little thing that doesn’t have to be like that and then it just all kind of ripples out from there and I just love it.
PAM: One thing I just wanted to say, I think at first like when I remember way back when we started, when I first heard the term unschooling and you hear of people describing living joyfully, making choices from that perspective rather than, life is hard. We have to do these hard things. At first, I remember thinking- well, if I step back and start choosing not to do hard things, won’t my life or my kids be so boring because we won’t be doing all those things. But like Anna said, you’ve discovered and shared Sam, it’s that shift to the motivation behind the choices.
The fact that they are now choices, we see our kids choosing to do hard things all the time. Challenging things that get them right up at the edge. Tipping over into frustration, but the fact that they’re choosing them intentionally makes all the difference in the world.
That was just something out there because at first you can think oh well then we’re going to be doing nothing but that’s one of the feedback we get to our questions. We used to get so often well, they’re never gonna do anything if you don’t make it do these hard things, right? They do all kinds of things!
ANNA: We’re about to wrap up, but I feel like because you’ve shared this journey I just want to and hopefully this isn’t too much of a surprise. I know you’re about a year and a half into your unschooling journey, maybe just give a brief glimpse into, things really do feel better, right? Your daughter really feels better, you see her kind of coming back into the person you felt like before and even more so I just maybe that would help give the arc for people that are feeling like it’s hard and it’s scary right now.
SAM: Yes, and I thank you for that opportunity because if I think back to where we were. If I think back to a year and a half ago, I was scared. I guess on the one hand I would hear stories of parents who’ve been through something similar and were in a different, better place now was helpful, but on the other hand the voice in my head was like, but that’s not going to be your situation. This is the rest of your life.
And it was slow and I think you, Anna, said something really helpful to me at one point. We were probably six months in and I was saying something and I can’t remember what we were talking about but it was in one of our weekly calls. I was commenting on being in burnout and what it was going to be like after and you said, Sam, I think you have some thinking to do about what it means to be done with burnout or what is life going to be like after burnout? What does that even mean?
That was super helpful and I’ve thought about that a lot because going into burnout felt very sudden. It just felt like one day we woke up and we were in a different universe. That’s how it felt. But when I think back, there were lots of signs. And if I go back and read, I’m a journaler, and if I go back and read my journal entries from three years ago, the signs are there in my journal or even from longer ago than that.
So, it really wasn’t sudden and the sort of transition out and now our daughter does talk about how she was in burnout and she talks about that sometimes. She talks about it as in the past tense and sometimes. She’s still a little bit in there, but she knows she’s in a better place. It really is just very incremental one day at a time, but things have changed dramatically. And we’re just in it as a family.
I think we’re just in a way, way, way better place and it doesn’t look anything like it looked before. I think it’s better than it was before but I could never have imagined or thought that this is what we would want. But now I just think things are great. I just feel more confident that we can deal with whatever challenges come up as they come up and we just have a new approach and a new lens for life.
ANNA: I think one of the cool things about her and some of the other kids that we’ve seen transition in that way is just how they teach us how to regulate. I want to do this thing and then I want some time off and wait, I don’t want to do this thing. I’ve loved watching her journey of really understanding herself because I think she was pushing herself beyond her limits, sometimes with a little help from you all.
But sometimes I think she was just reading the signs and saying okay, I need to do this. But now with this freedom you see her just being so intentional and expending a lot of energy on some things and then saying hey, I need to dial it back. I just feel like that’s great for all of us to learn and remember and normalize that that’s actually how humans like to move through the world.
That fast, linear pace is really hard for most humans and our nervous system. So, I love what these kids have to teach us as well. I appreciate you just sharing a little bit more of that arc.
Thank you so so much for being here. It’s been really interesting and powerful and I hope everyone enjoyed the conversation and maybe had their own kind of aha moment or just resonated with the feelings that we’ve been talking about. If you enjoy these kinds of conversations and want to come hang out with us. We’d love to have you join us on the Living Joyfully Network. We invite you to check it out and see if it fits with our free month trial and you’ll find the link in the show notes. And also at livingjoyfully.ca. The link will be on the home page.
Thank you so much for being here and for everyone for joining us.
PAM: Thanks so much, Sam. ERIKA: Thanks, Sam.
SAM: Thank you.
EU410: On the Journey with Ari Lambie
Jun 04, 2026
We’re back with another On the Journey episode! We had a fascinating conversation with Living Joyfully Network member Ari Lambie. Ari is a mom of three young children and she spoke with us about her journey. We talked about the philosophy of learning, the fallibilism of humans, creativity, children’s social development as well as their capability, and a lot more.
It was a really rich conversation and we hope you find it helpful!
We invite you to join us in the Living Joyfully Network, a warm and welcoming online community of like-hearted parents. It’s a non-judgmental space where you can steep in these unconventional ideas around parenting, relationships, and learning, and explore what they might look like day-to-day in your uniquely wonderful family. We offer a free month trial so you can see if it’s a good fit for you.Click here to join us.
Sign up to our mailing list on Substack to receive our email newsletters as well as new articles about learning, parenting, and so much more!
Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about exploring unschooling and navigating relationships.
EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
ANNA: Hello everyone, I’m Anna Brown with Living Joyfully, and today I’m joined by my co-host Erika Ellis and Pam Larcchia, as well as our special guest today, Ari Lambie. Hello to you all.
Before we get started, I just want to mention the Living Joyfully Network. It’s a lovely place where you can find support at any stage of your journey, and I feel so lucky to get to hang out with so many amazing people from all over the world. If you’d like to join us, we’ll put the link in show notes, and you can also go to our website livingjoyfully.ca, and there’s a link right on the home page.
I am so excited that Ari is here with us today. She is one of those amazing members of the Network I was just mentioning, and it’s been so fun getting to know her and her family. She loves to dive into all the nuances, and that is my favorite, so I’m very excited.
Ari, just to get us started, can you tell us a little bit about you and your family and what everyone’s interested in right now?
ARI: Sure. Well, thanks so much for having me. I’m really grateful to be here. I am Ari, and I’m part of a family of five. We live in Portland, Oregon. My husband, Joaquin, is a critical care doctor, so he spends a lot of time taking care of people and solving challenging problems, but he’s also really fun. He brings a lot of light energy to the house. He likes to cook, which I love. I mean, I don’t love cooking, so I love that he cooks.
He also likes to garden and play sports and come up with challenging ideas and concepts that are away from the norm, which is our favorite thing to talk about. We’ve been together for 20 years, and we just love talking about the ideas he comes up with, which makes me think hard and come back with either a new way of thinking or challenging him with a new idea. So, that’s what we spend a lot of time doing when we have time to ourselves.
My nine-year-old daughter likes to come in on those conversations sometimes. She really likes figuring out the world, talking about it. She likes to read. One of her interests is unusual animals, particularly marine animals. She’s taught me a ton about all these animals I’ve never heard of. She also likes to bake and do some crafty things. She likes to watch Minecraft videos and hang with friends. She spends a lot of time with her friends.
My seven-year-old is just this fantastic person of expression. She loves to draw. She loves to listen to music. She’s teaching herself how to play some music. She loves stories and is really good at telling stories. And she expresses herself with her body, too. She’s really athletic, and she gives the biggest, best hugs that you’ll ever feel.
My five-year-old, she’s really into pretend play. We play a lot of games together. She loves to be a pet in a pet store, and I come and have to buy her because she’s the most special pet in the store. Or we’ll play that we’re both shape-shifting dragons, and we have to defend against the other dragons. So that’s kind of her jam. She also likes to cook, and she’s really into numbers right now. She’s always figuring out how they go together, how they count up. So that’s been fun to play with her, too.
We all like to move. We’re all pretty physical. One of our favorite games is tag. When we go to the park, we will almost inevitably end up playing some form of freeze tag. We’ve invented lots of different games of freeze tag.
Me, I like to move outdoors. Hiking is probably one of my favorite hobbies right now. I also like to journal, and craft, and do art here and there. I spend most of my time hanging out with my kids and figuring out life. I’m loving it. It’s so nice.
PAM: It’s so great to hear about everybody. I feel like we say this every time, but it’s just so fun to hear the different kinds of expressions of each person, yet as you’re listening, you can see how they weave together. Like you were even saying, oh she likes to join in cooking. This one likes to join in on conversations. There’s so many pieces.
What I always love is just how it’s a beautiful expression of the idea of a family of individuals. How we can all be living together and being ourselves. Like you said, you’re very busy with parenting and figuring all those pieces out, and also you have the things that you enjoy doing, and that you notice you enjoy doing, and bringing those where they weave in to all the different pieces. So, I just, I love unschooling families.
ERIKA: I love that too, and yeah, it’s just making me think about, people are different, and how when we have these different individuals in our families, how we learn from each other, and I think initially when I went into parenting, I was thinking they’ll be a lot like me, and they’ll just learn from me kind of thing. I didn’t realize quite how much interconnected learning there would be, just because we’re all so different. I didn’t realize how different they could be, and I think, each child you add is just a whole new layer of learning for everyone in the family.
So, I love that for sure.
PAM: I think for me, that’s been one of the big shifts, was recognizing the individuals, right? As a family, we’re going to do this, and as a family, we’re going to do that, and then recognizing that legitimately doesn’t work for some of us, and that was kind of an eye-opening moment.
Okay, so the next question. We are very interested to hear a bit more about how you discovered unschooling, and what ideas and people have influenced you so far along the way, because, you know, the journey keeps going, doesn’t it?
ARI: Yeah, I don’t think it’ll ever end. So, my interest in unschooling started about four years ago, when I read a book by a physicist named David Deutsch. He talked about a lot of physics concepts that are beyond me, but he also talks about this philosophy or understanding of knowledge, and how knowledge grows, and it really shook up my understanding, but made it clearer to me what I believed, it made it make more sense.
And he draws a lot on a 20th century philosopher, Karl Popper, who coined the term, the bucket mind theory, I guess it is. So, thinking about the mind as a bucket, where you pour knowledge in, which is wrong, but it’s how a lot of us think about how knowledge is passed from one person to another.
It’s just this receiving process, where someone tells you information, and you receive it, but Deutsch and Popper challenge this and say, learning is actually a creative process. And it happens when we have a conflict in our mind, two things that are incompatible, as simple as a desire. I want this, and I don’t have it yet, or I want to understand this, and I don’t yet, and then what we do in our mind is we come up with ideas that can reconcile the conflict, or solve the conflict, and we use our knowledge to criticize all the ideas we come up with.
A lot of this is subconscious, but we’re criticizing our ideas, and picking the one that is the best explanation, and then we try it out, and then we see how the world responds, and we learn more information. This idea just made so much sense to me. They apply it to a larger scale, how humans as a species gain knowledge, and how science advances, but it also applies to the individual, so that really got me thinking.
I realized that school is so much based on the bucket theory of pouring knowledge in, and it doesn’t really allow for as much of this creative trying, or see your ideas are as valid as anybody’s, let’s hear more about them, so that was a big knock against school for me.
Deutsch also talks about the fallibilism of humans, that we’re just, most of our ideas are wrong. We don’t know anything for sure, and school sends the message, at least I got the message in school, that we’re telling you information, this is how it is, and it’s not going to change, we’re the authority here. I think that’s a real disservice, because the truth is that knowledge is always changing, the truth is, these are our best explanations right now, but in the future, we’ll probably prove most of this wrong. And so I think it’s dangerous to tell kids, this is how it is, don’t think that it could be different
So, you combine these ideas of creativity, that learning is about creativity, and that our ideas are always coming up with better explanations, replacing things, and it shows the big problem with ever forcing a person to think a certain way, or to do a certain thing, because even when you think you’re telling somebody to do something because it’s in their best interest, you’re probably wrong. We just don’t know enough about the world, or about that particular person, and then you’re also taking away their ability to come up with their own ideas, and test them out. That’s how they’re going to learn about their interfacing with the world, and how they want to be, and the best understanding that they can come to. You stunt human progress, because you’re limiting ideas, new ideas for us to test out.
Those were all big epiphanies for me, this new way of thinking, and I was like okay, so we should avoid forcing people as much as possible. It changed my view on society really. But I still wasn’t sure that it could apply to children. I had a five-year-old, a three-year-old, and a baby at the time, and I was telling them what to do a lot, and so I was like how do you apply this to, does this even apply to children.
So, I did some research, and I was like yes, people are doing this. Kids are full humans, they can be seen as creative knowledge growers as much as anybody, in fact they’re more creative, because they haven’t learned to criticize as much. I found John Holt, I found Peter Gray, I found you all, I found the term unschooling, and I was like wow, this is possible.
So, I talked with the family, presented it to my oldest, who was in kindergarten at the time, and our life was not as interesting as it was before they started preschool and kindergarten, I was not feeling, I don’t know, not as full myself, schlepping them places, and just dealing with the, let’s get to places on time energy. My oldest was starting to get a little bored with her experience in kindergarten, and she was all for staying home and continuing to play, so that’s when we started.
ANNA: All right, see, this is exciting though, because I think it’s so interesting, that idea that he was talking about, and that you were looking into that, how it really does systematically shut down that creative mind, that critical thinking mind. What a disservice, it really is. That’s why it’s so hard for me when, and I know it feels to people like such a radical concept, but I just think, oh my gosh, how does it not make sense, you can see it happening, and I think it’s just so fascinating. I love that this idea was related to adults. And still I think for many people it’s that resistance, but can it be for kids? I see that with so many interesting people that are putting interesting ideas out in the world, and so often are not applying to children, and I just think, whoa, you’re really missing the boat, one, because kids have so much to teach us, and they bring such creativity to things, but I just think, wow, you are missing that the ideas definitely apply to kids. That was very interesting, thank you.
PAM: The part that really bubbled up for me, that connected, because I feel like that’s something that I learned so strongly at school, that still gets in my way, so yeah, maybe it might be partly personality-based, but the idea of having the right answer first before acting. That is something I learned watching my kids, but still, it’s so ingrained.
I have to literally remember, and which is why I talk pretty often, and I don’t know if we’ve shared it yet, the Baby Steps episode from the Living Joyfully Podcast, but Baby Steps have become a mantra for me to remind myself to think, just as you were describing, what’s my best interpretation or thought or idea about this thing that I am feeling a push with? And go try it, and see what I learned, because I’ll learn more by trying it, more that I can take back, rather than just intellectually trying to solve it completely to the end, before I ever actually take it out in the world and see what it looks like.
So, I’ve spent all that time trying to figure it out, versus experimenting. I think maybe it looks like this, boom, go try it, learn some more, come back and, ooh, I’m going to tweak it a little bit more from what I learned, how things unfolded in that moment, and I’m going to take that idea out into the world and test it, that just makes so much sense.
It is how I saw, even though my kids were in school for a handful of years before they came home, but yeah, that period was just, like, releasing the crud, right. The crud that they had been absorbing, so their own kind of de-schooling, but mistakes still were not yet this huge, horrible thing to them. They didn’t even see them as mistakes, they just said, oh, that didn’t work as I expected, let me bring that information, tweak it, and try it a little bit differently next time, or two minutes from now when I want to keep pushing down this path. For me to recognize that mistakes aren’t literally bad, they’re just more learning, they’re just more context to the situation that I’m pulling in,
And that, to me, that’s where the creativity lies, because the more little bits of information I have, or if we think about learning as a web, the more little connections I’ve got, the more creative I can be, because I have more pieces to play with, to bring together.
It reminds me, you were talking about the discussions you and your husband love to have about very interesting things, it’s like, oh, let’s pull it apart this way, what if we look at it this way, what if we go way over here, and what would that look like, let’s go try it, or even if it’s a mind experiment. It’s just so fun and creative, and that’s what learning is, versus the, oh my gosh, here’s the bucket, take the fire hose, all the stuff you’re supposed to memorize and implement, because it’s the right way. Anyway, yes, so fun.
ERIKA: I feel like I’m going to be thinking about some of these for a while, it’s very interesting, and kind of a unique path to get to unschooling. I don’t know if I’ve heard this exact story before, which is really fun.
It was making me think, that idea of, you’re probably wrong, it could be a really good one to kind of play around with, because that’s so not what we learned growing up. It was, there’s one answer, that’s what the fact is. Then I was thinking back, and I remember in school, learning in science or something, we would learn something that people used to believe, like spontaneous generation, or something, where now we think how could they have been so clueless? I remember having the thought at that time, so what about now, don’t you think people in the future are going to be like, how could they have been so clueless back then?
So, I had that thought, but then you don’t really have a chance to play around with that. Everything is taught as facts now, and I just remember being, like, how will we know which ones of these are completely wrong, that we’re learning right now?
And so it is really interesting, and I think maybe approaching my kids with the idea that I’m probably wrong about what I think I know about whatever it is, I think that could be helpful. It might also make it more challenging to know what to say sometimes. I think I grew up in that environment of, you listen to the person, and they know what’s true, and that’s it. It feels super expansive to kind of shift that.
ARI: Yeah, I love all that. I think the way we try to come at our kids is not with that authority of, we know what’s best, but we have some ideas. We have stories that we’ve experienced, and we try to look at our kids. Are they interested in hearing from us about this topic?
And when you were talking, Pam, I was thinking about how the internal versus external processor, how maybe you go try things out, and that’s how you test ideas and criticize them and come up with better ones. A lot of people like to process them against the knowledge they have in their head or maybe go read about stuff. I love how you all talk about these different kinds of processing.
Some people want to talk to other people. The problem with the mindset that we learn in school is that talking to another person means asking an authority for the answer when it could mean let’s bounce some ideas around, like, what do you think of my ideas? Tell me your ideas. Let’s come up with what’s the best one to try, you know?
PAM: Yeah, or cheating, right? Then don’t talk to them about it. It does very much say you have to learn it all, and you have to regurgitate it this way. Just imagine external processors. You can’t talk to the teacher. You can’t talk to the other students in the classroom, and do you have a lot of time for processing outside of the school hours?
That was something that surprised me when my kids first came home, because we went from very scheduled and busy and stuff, right, and I thought, oh, well, we’re not going to school anymore. We have all this time to do other things, but then to realize that, they’re like, no, thank you. No, thank you. They spend so much more time just processing and engaging in what they were interested in, much more than I was kind of expecting. I thought, oh, I’m going to have to keep them busy, and that too is personality-based.
Some people like to, but that’s the difference. Even when we went to, say, the Science Center, seeing the difference between how they moved through exhibits and just the whole environment versus how the school kids in the exhibit right beside us were moving through it. They had no control, no agency over that pace, and they didn’t even get to choose what they were trying to process because they had the little worksheet that said, at this exhibit, when you do X, what happens. There was no time then to be creative with what is actually catching your attention. What would you like to focus on versus, what somebody else, authority, is telling you.
These are the important bits that you need to be picking out of that, right?
ANNA: Right, which I think makes you question things too, if you’re picking up different things than what the authority is picking up. I think a piece of my journey that’s related to this is, just kind of toying with the whole subjective reality piece, which I think was really the foundation for my understanding of how different people are. I do a lot of internal thinking about all the things, and that was really it for me.
Oh, things that feel like a fact, we are experiencing differently. So there was this nuance to the fact. The fact is that it’s 40 degrees outside. I’m cold, someone else is hot.
Okay, so we have a fact, but we have how we’re interacting with that fact. A dramatic example of one nation’s terrorist is another nation’s hero. There’s a fact of what happened, but the interpretation of the fact is so subjective, and so it was just this idea of, wow, we are experiencing the very same things very differently because we’re all so different. That just really changed so many things about the way I related to my kids, related to the people in my life.
Then we’ve just built on that as we’ve talked about relationships, but I think it’s all related. And I think school really stifles that understanding because it’s trying to put everything in a very neat box. And again, I think it can make kids kind of doubt themselves too, because they’re seeing different things that are just as important, but that aren’t being highlighted on the worksheet.
ERIKA: I think the younger kids, especially, like, when you’re describing being able to talk things through and that everyone’s ideas have value. I feel like it gets more like that when you get into college and beyond where people actually want to talk and professors want to hash things out. I mean, not everyone, but some.
But younger kids, you’re not ready for it. You know, you need me to dump all this information into your bucket because you don’t know anything yet. And so I think that’s so interesting that if we question that, kids have so many ideas and are so open to that.
ARI: Simply the idea that they might know what they want. They’re having this subjective experience and they have unique wants. But no, we want to take them to this class and this activity and they shouldn’t be watching this TV. There’s just this idea that we know better what they want.
PAM: Right. We don’t trust. Like you said, we just can’t know. We can’t. And I think that’s why when we talk so often about this de-schooling phase of the journey, how so much of it we recognize quickly enough is our work to do.
Because we are questioning some of these more basic ideas and then playing with them and seeing how they unfold. Here’s the school’s conventional ideas and here’s, for lack of a better phrase, unschooling’s unconventional ideas. And it’s not about just taking those on wholesale as your new set of rules to follow, et cetera. Because then you don’t get that richness. You don’t get that understanding. You’re not playing around with them to see how they make sense for you. But to take this, like you were saying, that makes sense to me. Does this apply to children?
And then looking to your children and playing around with some of those ideas and then seeing how they actually unfold is how you learn how capable kids really are and how they can have an idea of subjectively what they want this experience to be. Notice that it’s different from the experience we were kind of hoping they were going to have.
But letting it play out and seeing, oh, look how super valuable that was for them, for who they are as that unique human being versus, yeah, sure, I could have said, oh, no, but do it this way, but do it this way. And they would have taken that in, but they would have taken it as my interpretation. And then, yes, you get into all the, oh, does that mean I’m wrong? Does that mean I can’t think through this properly?
I should be thinking about it and seeing and being interested in what they think, et cetera. So there’s all that piece that comes along when they didn’t get to play around with the one thing that they were super interested in about it all.
ERIKA: The next question we had is how you have shared on the network about how trust has been harder to find related to your children’s social development more than physical or intellectual development. I was hoping you could share a little bit about that journey and what has helped you in that area.
ARI: Yeah, it’s been really interesting to watch in myself how I have no qualms about the kids climbing up structures and maybe taking a tumble, playing sports and making mistakes. I see that as part of their physical development. And with intellectual, academic stuff, it was pretty easy for me to make the paradigm shift of if they follow their interests and their problem solving, they’re going to be able to lead their way here.
But when it came to social stuff, the moment my kid said something mean on the playground and I’m worried what the other kid is going to think, I immediately tense up and rush to intervene. Even if my kids like making a suggestion for a game to a stranger on the playground, I feel myself, oh no, what if, I don’t know if she asked it in the right way. What if the other kid says no and I’m so untrusting of their social exploration, it’s been really interesting. And so with all of your help, I’ve been exploring why that is and where I can go with it.
I think that the social stuff has always been really hard for me, or the hardest part for me. And so, in a way, I wish I had more help with it. And so I want to help my kids. And this is how I know how to help is to jump in and tell them what to do. I also think that in our society, and I’ve noticed it, in particular in the homeschool spheres, there’s this real desire for everyone to play nice. I think even families keep their kids out of school to avoid bullying and terrible behavior, which is legitimate.
But then it makes these expectations in the play spaces of, we don’t accept certain behaviors. And so we have less tolerance of their developmental journey in this social stuff. They’re supposed to know how to act now, which I think is really interesting.
And so I feel that social pressure. And then the third piece, I think, is that I feel like my impact on the world, my desire to bring certain energy, certain positivity to the world is intertwined with how my kids act, how my kids are in the world. And so if they do something socially that I don’t like, if they do something that might hurt someone, or behave in a way that is not how I would carry myself, then I think that’s a problem, because I am too connected.
So there are those three pieces that I’ve tried to work through. I think the first one, as far as me wanting to intervene, because social stuff is hard for me, I’ve unpacked as like, would little Ari have wanted more instructions, more judgment, telling me how to act? Or would I have wanted curiosity and more questions like, what’s going on for you? Compassion, trying to understand what’s going on. And an acknowledgement that we don’t know the right way, there’s no right way to act, right?
Language like, this is not okay, or we don’t do that. That doesn’t fit in my sphere anymore. It’s more about, what was this experience? And do you want to process it with me?
That’s the energy I would like to bring to my kids. It’s still a struggle. I get triggered all the time. But I try to think back on what would have helped me and looking into my kids eyes, what is going to be helpful for them now? Is it judgment? Is it instruction? Or is it this openness and acknowledgement that you’re on a journey and you don’t have to get it right now.
First of all, there is no right, but also, it’s just a long learning process. And then with the social expectations, I’ve tried to surround myself with people who are interested in trusting their kids more. And I found some beautiful people. And that’s been helpful.
I acknowledge that we don’t want our kids to be hurt. So we still want to talk to our kids about and inform them if somebody else is being impacted by their behavior. I try to just have a lot of conversations without judgment around that. And I think helping our kids through difficult social situations by being okay. Helping our kids know that hurt is going to happen and that I’m here for you and what do we want to do about it? Instead of mom should have prevented that.
I think there’s just so much more nuance to their social development than kids should have these instructions of how to treat other people. Because social interactions are really complicated. And then, my biggest aha, I think, has been untangling my impact from my kids’ impact.
I think there’s a story that I have. And I think a lot of people believe that our kids are part of our way of making the world a better place. We’re raising our kids to be good people so that the world can be a better place. And the moment, this statement came into my head that my children are not my agents to make the world a better place. It’s like, whoa, that’s me. That’s about my actions. And they are full people. And I am here to support them in becoming who they are. That has been a really helpful aha moment for me.
ANNA: Yeah, that one’s huge. And I think that is interesting, because I think we do often put things on children that are really ours to carry. It is okay for me to say I want to be this change agent myself, but this idea that our kids can do that is super interesting.
But something when you were talking earlier to just the idea of, we tend to focus so intently on behaviors that we really do miss those nuances of needs that are happening underneath of that. And so when we’re solely focused on, even just the labeling of bullying behavior, it’s like, oh, there’s so much underneath of that. Now, granted, in a school environment, they don’t have the tools or the time or the people that can work with that. So, I totally get wanting to get kids out of an environment like that that doesn’t feel safe.
But when we have engaged parents with kids, we’re able to dig under that to see, oh, is this actually not a good environment? Have we not eaten? Is there something else going on? We can look at all these pieces. And when we’re having that kind of conversation with our kids, they’re actually learning about their own triggers, like, okay, I don’t do well in large crowds, or I need to eat before we do something, or I can only last two hours.
That’s so much more productive for everyone, for the family and the group as a whole. But for the individual to have the space to learn about themselves in that way, when they’re young, is so valuable. I also feel for you because I’ve been there feeling that like, oh, that’s not what I would say. That’s not how I would have handled that. And I love just being able to help myself, find that compassion for the person and really see them and have really seen so many people just kind of melt under that and just feel really held. And have a real learning opportunity of what was happening for them in that moment. There were just so many interesting things about that.
PAM: So many. I mean, it really is the piece, maybe I’m reiterating again, but that piece of how much they’re learning about themselves, having the space to process that, spaces in that doesn’t mean literally leaving them alone, because that’s what we feel we’re supposed to do or anything. We have the conversations and they’re like, I don’t want you to come jumping in if you see, I want to try this, this and this.
But you’ve made that plan beforehand. This is an experiment that you’re running. This is how you’re trying and how you’re going to learn more about all the pieces. Because like you were saying, there’s just so much context to every moment. Maybe one park day, everything goes fine, there are no big blow ups or anything. And, the next one, there’s clashes.
And to be able to chat more about the context of those moments. And if you don’t have as much of a chatter, we’re still observing. I think that was one of the things too, so often was seeing that, like you talked about finding a group of engaged parents, Ari.
And I think that makes a huge difference because so often it was the parents all off in one area and then the kids just off on their own. And I was often one of the only parents who would hang out with the kids. They’re fun.
But because we saw what was going on, we could have meaningful conversations after about it. When they did this, how are you feeling? Or we have enough information and context to have meaningful conversations to process through which they can learn.
I was really hungry or I was frustrated because like three interactions ago, something happened that I was stewing about that came with me. So my cup was almost full. And this one little thing which I could have moved through 90 percent of the time just kind of filled me up and I exploded because of that.
Those are all such valuable pieces to learn about ourselves. And for them to learn about us, like moving forward that they can bring that you can then prep for it. Like you were saying, eating before you go, noticing the time and maybe even having like a code word for when it’s time.
There were times when I’m like, we’ll totally just blame this all on me or whatever. Like I’ll come up and say, oh, we have to go, we have to go. And we’ll have prearranged it before that, that they’re going to want to go at this point.
Or if we see something happen, but then I am able to just pull them out of it. We are just learning so much every time we just try something out and see it takes us right back to where you started. I try something out and see how it unfolds and what do we learn from it?
And yes, it applies here too. But yeah, socially, that can be a hard place to take these ideas or a more challenging place to take these ideas. Because there are so many social roles. And like you said, you kind of have to find the people who are also willing to engage with social situations in the same kind of way.
ERIKA: It is so interesting. I think it’s just an area that triggers us, because of our own experiences and how you’re describing that social life was hard for you. Then that’s so triggering. I have the same experience with my kids. I don’t want them to lose their friends. I want them to be accepted and I want them to not be rejected.
And there are these very kind of almost scary feelings that can come up for me. It feels very urgent that this go well. And I just hope that they say the right thing. It’s a panicky feeling that can come up for me. But just like everything else, there’s no one right way, which you mentioned, which I think is so huge. That doesn’t even seem possibly true at the beginning.
But then it’s like, well, of course, there’s not one right way to behave socially. And that it requires learning like anything else in life. And so just being open to it, they’re going to try things and see how it turns out. And that’s just how humans learn. And that’s okay. That’s safe. It’s been really interesting to sit with the reality of that.
My oldest does a lot of processing of social things with me. That has been very enjoyable to have things occur and him to notice things he didn’t the first time, after our discussion. So he’ll be like, so and so is really making me mad right now, he’s furious. And I’m like, oh, my gosh, what’s going on? But then he’ll bring things up. I think he probably didn’t sleep well, you know, just the context pieces or we don’t know. Maybe I could provide information. His mom’s been out of town all week or just different things.
There are things that go on with people, maybe it’s hormones. And so we’ve talked about hormones and maybe it’s all these different things. And so just kind of giving everyone more space, I guess, to make mistakes socially and that to be like, and we’re still okay. And we can make repairs.
It’s such a different feeling and story than I had when I was growing up. I feel like the validation I got from my mom was kind of like, that’s a mean person. It wasn’t about, I wonder what’s going on with them. It was more, no one should talk to you like that. They must be a mean person kind of feeling. Maybe she didn’t use those words, but that was what I internalized about it.
So, yeah, I totally appreciate that this area is so hard sometimes. I really enjoy hearing you process about it and just opening up to, there’s no one right way, even here.
ANNA: Yeah. Something you said too, that I think a lot of us deal with is we take our childhood experiences and I mean, of course, because they’re a part of us, right? And so they become these triggers in these situations with our kids. But I think it’s so important to remember how different the environment is for our kids. You are there to have those conversations and those nuanced pieces. And it is so different.
And almost the stakes, while they still feel high, I know what you’re saying, Erika, they are lower. In the sense of my experience of school was just me having to go to this place and figure it all out on my own. I had a close relationship with my mom, but she didn’t know anything about school or the politics of school or what was happening at school. And so I didn’t even bring that to her.
I think it’s so different when we’re with our kids more in this weaving in and out of our lives day to day, where they just have that space to talk about their feelings and what’s happening with it. And even if they’re not kids that share every little bit, there’s just some different nuances there related to how we support our kids. So it’s always important for me to remember, that was my experience. And it was so hard because I didn’t have the support.
But I guess that’s what I liked about what you said, too, Ari, asking what would I have wanted? Would I really have wanted somebody to jump in and tell me what to do? Or would I have wanted this nonjudgmental space with somebody to help me figure it out for myself? I thought that was really interesting.
ARI: I think it’s one of the most rewarding parts of parenting in this way that our kids come to us to process. Like you were describing, Erika, when they just see a moment and they know that it’s always an opportunity to process with mom or anybody here. It’s just a beautifully different environment.
PAM: It just reminds me of, I always remember the drive home from Girl Guides meetings. That was always a big processing time. But what stood out for me often was just like you were saying, Erika. It’s like, oh, so-and-so seemed like really out of sorts today or whatever, whatever. And she would be explaining to me, yeah, because X, because Y. Where I feel this defensive mama bear come up. But I got to the space where I could just recognize that in me. Doesn’t make it wrong either, right? Nothing, it’s not wrong, wrong. It’s just recognizing that experience.
And then when I just put a little sentence out there, I get the whole context and the understanding. And I was like, oh, yeah. That’s the human being I want to be.
ANNA: Whoa, right? It’s not getting defensive. Being able to see other people’s experience.
And also, just be able to make that repair if it’s needed. Or be open to repair if something’s happened to us. I think it’s a big difference. And it’s a learning process, right?
It’s not perfect for any of us at any age. And so this expectation that kids are going to be perfect doesn’t make sense, but it’s creating that environment where that’s possible. And I feel like even, Ari, some of the stuff you’ve talked about on the network, you’ve seen changes in them as they’ve had this freedom. Especially your oldest to really be understood in some of the ways that she was approaching situations. So I think that was really cool.
ARI: Absolutely.
ANNA: Well, thank you so much. This was a lot of fun and I just really, really enjoyed it. And we hope everybody enjoyed our conversation, maybe had a little aha moment or picked up on some ideas to consider for your own personal journey.
And of course, if you enjoy these conversations and want to come hang out with us, we’d love to have you join us at the Living Joyfully Network. It is really such an amazing group of people connecting and having thoughtful conversations about all the things that we encounter in life, our own and our kids and all the things. So we invite you to check it out and see if it fits with our free month offer.
And you’ll find the link in the show notes or you can go to livingjoyfully.ca and the link is on the homepage. But thank you so much again for joining us. It was just really great to hang out with you all.
ARI: Thank you for having me.
PAM: Thank you, Ari.
ERIKA: Thank you so much, Ari.
EU409: Foundations: Baby Steps
May 21, 2026
For this week’s episode, we’re sharing the next Foundations episode of the Living Joyfully Podcast with Pam and Anna, Baby Steps.
So often, when we’re faced with a challenge or making a choice, we don’t need to have the full picture or the final answer in order to move forward. By taking a baby step in the direction that makes sense to us or to our loved ones, we can learn more about the situation and see how it feels. One baby step can lead naturally to the next. As we keep communicating and checking in, we can find a path forward that works for everyone.
We hope today’s episode sparks some fun insights for you!
We invite you to join us in the Living Joyfully Network, a warm and welcoming online community of like-hearted parents. It’s a non-judgmental space where you can steep in these unconventional ideas around parenting, relationships, and learning, and explore what they might look like day-to-day in your uniquely wonderful family. We offer a free month trial so you can see if it’s a good fit for you. Click here to join us.
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Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about exploring unschooling and navigating relationships.
EPISODE QUESTIONS
Does it feel like many of the day to day choices you’re making are urgent? Are they really? If you haven’t listened to episode 8 yet about Anna’s mantra, “there’s plenty of time,” I highly recommend it.
Thinking back, can you remember a time when you felt pressured (often by ourselves!) to make a decision quickly yet the better choice wasn’t immediately clear? Can you think of a series of baby steps that might have helped? Feel free to get creative!
Is there a choice or a goal you’re considering right now that feels big? You don’t need to know exactly how you’d get there, but can you see a baby step in that direction? Can you do that and see what happens?
Are you more of a leap-first person or a firm-footing person? What about your partner? Your children? How can understanding that help you communicate with them about future decisions?
TRANSCRIPT
PAM: Hello and welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast. We are happy you’re here exploring relationships with us, who we are in them, out of them, and what that means for how we move through the world.
If you’re new to the podcast, we encourage you to go back and listen to the earlier episodes. We started with some foundational relationship ideas in these first dozen episodes and have really enjoyed how they are building on one another. And if you’ve already been enjoying the podcast, please share it with the people in your life that you think would benefit from contemplating these ideas. It’s super easy to share. Just send them to pod.link/livingjoyfully. From there, they can pick their favorite podcast player and it will take them right to the show in that app. Thanks so much for helping us spread the word.
And so, this week, we are going to talk about the idea of baby steps. When we’re trying to make a choice, so often, we don’t need to make the big, ultimate decision right now. This builds on the idea that there’s plenty of time, which we talked about a few weeks ago. These are the threads that are moving through them all.
So, maybe we’re not yet sure whether we want to pursue the end goal that we’re considering. When we find ourselves here, what’s often missing is more information or experience. So, taking the next baby step in that direction can give us more information to help us make that bigger picture decision. Sometimes we need to take quite a few baby steps before we get a keen sense of what we ultimately want to do.
Or, maybe our partner or child wants to do something that stretches our comfort zone. Chances are, we don’t need to make a yes/no choice immediately. Staying open and curious, which we talked about last week, can help us take the next baby step in that direction and just learn more about what it entails and how it feels. It can also give us a better understanding of why they’re wanting to go in that direction and some experience that can help us better explain our perspective. We’re learning more about them and we’re learning more about ourselves.
That deeper level of self-awareness and having a better grasp of the language around their goal, now we can have more meaningful and connected conversations with them. There’s just so much we can learn when we try just that next baby step, isn’t there?
ANNA: Oh my gosh, yes. And it really is the natural extension of last week’s discussion on being open and curious. When our partner or child brings us something they want to do, sometimes if we don’t see the whole path clearly, we’ll just shut it down. At the first thought of resistance, we’re just like, “No, that doesn’t sound doable.” But if instead we can ask some questions and start walking in that direction, we learn so much more about each other and also about the task at hand. What does it really mean? What is it really going to entail?
We don’t have to commit to that end goal, like you’re saying, right away. Taking that first step helps us learn more and keeps us connected.
PAM: Yeah. Yeah. So, I have a story to share about taking baby steps and stretching my comfort zone, that, looking back, I do remember fondly.
It’s an example of how we don’t need to make all or nothing decisions immediately, and how choosing the next baby step does not mean that you’ve committed to a big yes right now.
So, this happened years ago now, in the aftermath of a big January snowstorm. My daughter was maybe 13 or 14 and we had tickets to see a concert in the city about an hour away. So, that morning, the snow was falling heavily and I was sure they’d cancel the show. People were being told to stay home if possible. I was looking forward to settling in and hanging out around the fire in our wood stove.
My daughter had been looking forward to the show and was understandably disappointed. I told her that I was pretty sure they’d reschedule the show. So, she wouldn’t miss it. It would just be postponed. She kept checking the website. And by early afternoon, they announced that the show was going to go on.
Obviously, she wanted to go and I wanted to stay home. I imagined all the hurdles in our way. And it seemed like way too much work, yet I could see her immense disappointment and I chose to shift to being open and curious about the possibility.
And though I couldn’t yet muster a, “Yes, let’s go!” I did manage to take a baby step to meet her with a maybe. Though the snow had now stopped falling, I explained the obstacles I saw and that I was willing to try the next baby step and see how it looked. If it looked okay, we’d try the next baby step and the next, and she agreed.
So, step one was, clean off the car and shovel enough of the driveway to get out by our planned departure time. And we did it, even after the snow plow went by and created another curb of snow at the end of the driveway that we had to dig through again.
So, step two, is our local rural road plowed and safely drivable? Once we could peek out and see the road, that was a yes, too. Step three was pack the car with extra hats and mitts and snacks in case we get stuck along the way. Done.
By the time we pulled out of the driveway, it felt like we were on quite the adventure. I was rather surprised we’d actually made it this far, but there was no point that said, “Stop,” so we kept going. Step four, as we slowly drove into the city, I reminded her that if the road or the traffic got bad, we would turn back. Even in her excitement, she was fine with that. It turned out that though the roads were snow-covered, they had been plowed, so it wasn’t deep, and traffic was very light. Slowly but surely, we made our way into the city.
Step five, we pulled into the venue parking lot. We were both so surprised to find ourselves there. It was almost surreal. I can still remember the feeling. So white and quiet outside. And inside, the concert turned out to be a very intimate show. The band thanked those who showed up and really connected with the audience as they played. It ended up being a pretty magical night.
I remember that day vividly because it was a great reminder that, when I’m feeling overwhelmed, when I’m feeling like I need to make a big yes/no choice, taking baby steps and looking around after each one to see what’s up and see how I’m feeling can be a really helpful way for me to move through it.
I could acknowledge both my discomfort and her enthusiasm, holding both of them gently in my hands. And baby step by baby step, explore whether we could find a path forward that worked for both of us.
And that said, sometimes we don’t have the capacity for that, and that’s okay. Sometimes we start out and come to an impasse. That’s okay, too. But sometimes we find a path of baby steps that works out. And over the years, that happened way more often than I expected. That inspired me each time just to give it a shot.
ANNA: Just to give it a shot! Oh my gosh. I love that story. And I think what I want to highlight is that by being open to those next steps and communicating along the way, you stayed on the same side.
You were a team. You were solving it together. You were traveling those next steps together. And you could have shut it down with a no saying, it’s just too snowy, which really wouldn’t have been that unreasonable of a reaction. But most likely, it would’ve led to some kind of rupture, even beyond the disappointment. Maybe even a slammed door or just some kind of upset. But instead, you dug into your concerns. You were honest about them, talked about them, and slowly started to address them together, knowing that at any time you could change your mind.
And what she saw was that you were trying, and again, that you were working together. And that is just such a different energy than making top-down decisions. Because had it not worked out, she would’ve seen the path of why it didn’t work out. The road’s impassable. We can’t get the driveway dug out. The car’s not starting. Whatever the real thing would’ve been, as opposed to you inside by the fire making that choice for her.
I think we can do this with our partners, too. They’ll have an idea and instead of examining where our reactions are coming from, we just react and we shut it down and it’s really disconnecting. And interestingly, we can do this whether the idea has anything to do with us or not. It’s really easy to fall into that trap of pointing out all the problems. Instead, we can listen, ask questions, celebrate the excitement that the person has for the idea. That’s what keeps us connected and helps us find the next steps that make sense.
So, it’s back to being open and curious. I want to cultivate that mindset when someone comes to me with an idea, because from that place, we can figure out any resistance and start to address it with those next baby steps. And the key with this process is to remain connected and curious. I can be honest about what’s coming up for me without judging or shutting down what’s happening for them and where they want to go.
I think part of it is releasing any sense of urgency, which we talk about a lot. I know sometimes I can feel pressured when somebody comes to me with a request, but what I’ve learned is that, if I answer from that place, I most likely will say no or something that disconnects us. It’s okay to ask for some time to think and gather your thoughts and consider things. And that’s back to, are you an internal or external processor? Taking time to think about what’s causing the resistance helps you to be able to communicate that with your partner and child.
And honestly, the first step is often just listening, like really listening. What’s behind the request? What are they excited about? How do they see it playing out? Then perhaps the next step is really still information gathering. There’s a lot you can do that’s pretty low stakes, but it shows that you’re open to understanding and trying to find a path forward, and it just makes all the difference in a relationship.
PAM: Yes, as an internal processor, I have said to my kids over the years and they learned to work with, “If you need an answer right now, it’s gonna be a no. But if you give me a few minutes to just take it in and figure out how it feels and what it looks like,” I just need to process it and it’s not something I can do aloud. As an internal processor, I just need to do it in my head. And do the different paths. Okay, so this is the change, this is what that change looks like over the rest of the day or week, depending on what it is. And then I’m like, “Oh yeah, that’s all good.” And then I go back and say, yes, or I actually discover what the hiccup is, and then I can go and say, “Oh, but look, that impacts this for me. How can we address that?”
But if I need to answer right away, I would say no. And most people are not like, “I’ll take the no right away, please.” So, seeing through their eyes is just so very helpful, because that’s what each baby step can help us with. So, even if I don’t get to a place where I share their level of excitement about the thing, I can definitely often get to a place where I can appreciate their excitement. And want it for them. That makes all the difference in the world for me.
ANNA: So much. And I think just what you were just talking about it, it’s important to acknowledge that there are differences that we can learn about in each other. And we talked a bit about that in episode three, but I think this is another potential difference that can trip up relationships.
So, you’re going to have the people who like to leap first, ask questions later, and then you’re going to have people who really need to feel out every step, to confirm that there’s some firm footing here before I go any further. And understanding where you lie on that continuum will help you communicate with your partner.
So, if you’re a leap-first person and you’re partnered with a firm-footing-only person, you can take that into consideration, just like your kids were able to do, and see that their questions are not about discounting your idea at all but that they’re trying to make the idea work for them.
So remember, often our work is to not take things personally, but to see that our partner’s actions or behaviors are trying to meet a need. And so, then we’re learning about one another and we’re learning about how to approach these conversations. So, even when you have two different styles, you can find ways to come together honoring each other. That starts with setting any defensiveness aside and trusting that the two of you will keep working to find a path forward that feels good.
You may find some unique combinations of leaping and planning or leaning on each other’s strengths to get the best outcome, because so often in these situations, it’s really a bit of both, right? Leaps of faith and some pre-planning that get us there. And sometimes there’s certain situations that are better served by one or the other, but knowing each of your strengths puts you in the best position to get where you want to go together and helping one another. Knowing that there are options and keeping the lines of communication open helps us remain connected even if we’re navigating difficult decisions or stretching our comfort zones.
PAM: Yes. Our differing personalities are such a great thing to consider when we’re talking about goals, paths, and what that next step might be. It makes all the difference. And as you were sharing there, what comes to mind for me is just the experience. Each time we move through it, we’re building trust with the other person. Trust that I will consider the kind of person you are. What feels good to you? What doesn’t feel good to you? I’m not gonna try and railroad my answer. But I’m not going to just accept your answer either and be martyrly about it, because that’s going to lead to burnout. That’s going to lead to overwhelm, all sorts of places. And sometimes that happens, but then there’s work to move through that and to get back to connection from there.
So, the more I can bring myself and be open and curious about other people, each time that happens, we build a little bit more trust that this process is working for us, no matter what path we ended up on. That, to me, was always one of the most fun things. Yes, there was a hard piece about the uncertainty, like going into the conversation, not knowing where we’d go, but oh my gosh, the places that we ended up so often were way more interesting and fun than the original path that I thought of.
ANNA: That’s so true, but that’s because we were open and created this environment where they could feel open to ask and respect and understand, and all of those pieces that weave together to create these strong, connected relationships that we’re talking about every week.
PAM: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, here are some questions you might want to ponder as you explore how taking baby steps can make choices and decisions easier. It’s a skill that you can definitely get better at through experience.
So, number one, does it feel like many of the day to day choices you’re making are urgent? Are they really? If you haven’t listened to episode eight yet about Anna’s mantra, There’s Plenty of Time, I highly recommend you start there.
Question two, thinking back, can you remember a time when you felt pressured (and that can be pressure we’re putting on ourselves) to make a decision quickly, yet the better choice wasn’t immediately clear? Can you think of a series of baby steps that might have helped you along the way? And feel free to get creative. It can feel like, oh, that’s just more work. But, oh my gosh, the journey is the experience.
ANNA: Exactly. And the creativity is all a part of it and what makes it a little bit lighter, not so much weight, as we can be creative together.
PAM: Yeah. All right. Question three. Is there a choice or a goal you’re considering right now that feels big to you? You don’t need to know exactly how you would get there, but can you see a baby step in that direction? Can you do that and just see what happens?
And lastly, are you more of a leap-first person or a firm-footing person? What about your partner, your children? How can understanding that help you communicate with them about future decisions?
All right. Thank you so, so much for listening and we will see you next time. Bye! Have a great day!
EU408: A Field Guide: Challenging Our Beliefs About Learning
May 07, 2026
We’re back with the second episode in our new series on the podcast, in which we’re working our way through Pam’s book, The Unschooling Journey: A Field Guide. Today, we’re beginning our exploration of the deschooling phase of the journey with stage six: Challenging Our Beliefs About Learning. Deschooling has several aspects, and this is […]
EU407: On the Journey with Lucia Silva
Apr 23, 2026
We’re back with another On the Journey episode! We had a rich conversation with Living Joyfully Network member Lucia Silva. Lucia was previously on the podcast in episode 251, Unschooling as a Lifestyle. She is an unschooling mom of two and she came back to share some updates about her unschooling journey. We talked about […]
EU406: Foundations: Open and Curious
Apr 09, 2026
For this week’s episode, we’re sharing the next Foundations episode of the Living Joyfully Podcast with Pam and Anna, Open and Curious. Open and curious is a helpful mindset shift for navigating relationships and challenges. In this week’s episode, we dive into Pam’s mantra and some of the many ways that it has proven to […]
EU405: A Field Guide: Choosing Unschooling
Mar 26, 2026
Welcome to a new series on the podcast that we’re calling A Field Guide, in which we’re working our way through Pam’s book, The Unschooling Journey: A Field Guide. We’re using the chapters of the book as monthly themes in the Living Joyfully Network, which is bringing everything top of mind for us, and got […]
EU404: Foundations: Stories
Mar 12, 2026
For this week’s episode, we’re sharing the next Foundations episode of the Living Joyfully Podcast with Pam and Anna, Stories. Humans are storytellers. We choose the stories we tell about our lives. In every situation, we can come up with a number of ways to tell the story of it, and they’re all a version […]
The Unschooling Summit, 2026
Mar 02, 2026
Join other parents from around the world for three days of inspiration and community at The Unschooling Summit. This free virtual event will feature 90+ unschooling experts and advocates.
EU403: On the Journey with Erin Rosemond
Feb 26, 2026
Pam, Anna, and Erika talk with Erin Rosemond about her unschooling journey.
EU402: 10 Years: What Still Matters (Part 3)
Feb 19, 2026
The Exploring Unschooling Podcast has now been around for over 10 years and 400 episodes! This month, we’re celebrating these huge milestones by looking back and reflecting on three big questions. In Part 3 of our celebration, Pam, Anna, and Erika explore the question of what still matters over the course of the past 10 […]
EU401: 10 Years: What’s Changed (Part 2)
Feb 12, 2026
The Exploring Unschooling Podcast has now been around for over 10 years and 400 episodes! This month, we're celebrating these huge milestones by looking back and reflecting on three big questions.
EU400: 10 Years: What We’ve Learned (Part 1)
Feb 05, 2026
The Exploring Unschooling Podcast began at the beginning of 2016 when Pam released episode EU001: What is Unschooling? 10 Years! And 400 Episodes! To celebrate these huge milestones, we are looking back and reflecting this month. In Part 1 of our celebration, Pam, Anna, and Erika explore the question of what we’ve learned on our […]
EU399: On the Journey with Jenna-Gaye Hollis
Jan 29, 2026
This week, we have a wonderful conversation with Living Joyfully Network member Jenna-Gaye Hollis. Jenna is a mom of four living in Australia. Her sons are 17, 16, 14, and 9, and she shared some of her unschooling journey with us.
EU398: Foundations: Polarizing Paradigms
Jan 15, 2026
For this week’s episode, we’re sharing the next Foundations episode of the Living Joyfully Podcast with Pam and Anna, Polarizing Paradigms. While it’s common to see things through the lens of right and wrong or good and bad and to look for someone or something to blame, these polarizing paradigms are damaging to relationships. Real […]
EU397: Celebrating Interests
Jan 01, 2026
On this episode of Exploring Unschooling, Pam, Anna, and Erika talk about the immense value of celebrating interests. As humans, what we are interested in really makes us who we are as individuals. When we celebrate and show interest in the things that our children and partners love, our relationships deepen. Our loved ones feel […]
EU085 Flashback: Deschooling with Lucy AitkenRead
Dec 18, 2025
In this episode, we’re sharing a conversation that Pam had with Lucy AitkenRead in 2017. At the time, Lucy unschools her two children and blogs at Lulastic and the Hippyshake. Pam and Lucy talked about her family’s move to unschooling, the hardest parts of her journey, the most surprising bits, as well her husband’s journey […]
EU396: Foundations: There’s Plenty of Time
Dec 04, 2025
For this week’s episode, we’re sharing the next Foundations episode of the Living Joyfully Podcast with Pam and Anna, There’s Plenty of Time. It’s amazing how so many things that come up in our days can feel like emergencies, like they need to be solved as soon as possible. Taking a moment to consider whether […]
EU395: Navigating All the Needs
Nov 20, 2025
In this episode of Exploring Unschooling, Pam, Anna, and Erika talk about navigating all the needs in our unschooling families. Navigating all the needs can be one of the biggest puzzles of parenthood. In many cases, we’re going from only being responsible for ourselves, to then being in partnership with someone else, to then adding […]
EU394: Weaving Together Neurodivergence and Unschooling with Melissa Crockett-Joyoue
Nov 06, 2025
In this episode, we were so grateful to be joined by Melissa Crockett-Joyoue of the Unschooling Summit and Weave ND. Melissa shared her dramatic journey to unschooling, her experience as a neurodivergent parent of neurodivergent kids, and how amazing unschooling has been for all of them. We also talked about increasing our capacity through intentional […]
EU393: Foundations: Every Moment is a Choice
Oct 23, 2025
For this week’s episode, we’re sharing the next Foundations episode of the Living Joyfully Podcast with Pam and Anna, Every Moment is a Choice. It’s common in our culture to look at our lives in terms of “have-tos,” but staying in that space takes away our agency and our joy. By getting curious about our […]
EU392: Unschooling Stumbling Blocks: Strong Beliefs
Oct 09, 2025
We are back with another episode in our Unschooling Stumbling Blocks series and this time, we’re talking about unschooling with strong beliefs. Sometimes our strong beliefs can be a stumbling block along our journey when we put the belief ahead of our relationships. When those moments come up in our families, it can help to […]
EU132 Flashback: Deschooling Two Cultures with Iris Chen
Sep 25, 2025
In this episode, we’re sharing a conversation that Pam had with Iris Chen in 2018. At the time, Iris was new to unschooling her two sons in China and was writing blog posts about her experience at her website, Untigering. Pam and Iris talked about why she and her husband decided to move to China, […]
EU391: Foundations: Boundaries, Comfort Zones, and Capacity
Sep 11, 2025
For this week’s episode, we’re sharing the next Foundations episode of the Living Joyfully Podcast with Pam and Anna, Boundaries, Comfort Zones, and Capacity. The idea of boundaries comes up pretty often in conventional circles, often through the lens of self-care, encouraging people to set boundaries with their kids, their partners, their parents, and so […]
EU390: When School Isn’t Working
Aug 28, 2025
We talk about changes you might notice in your child, about the choices that we have when it comes to living and learning, and about the value of community during that big transition away from mainstream schooling.
EU110FB: Unschooling Dads and Music with Alan Marshall
Aug 14, 2025
In this episode, we’re sharing a conversation that Pam had with unschooling dad Alan Marshall in 2018. At the time, Alan was a professional musician and a university music professor with three kids at home. Pam and Alan talked about his family’s journey to unschooling, his eldest’s transition to junior high, ways to approach music […]
EU389: Foundations: Consent and Consensual Living
Jul 31, 2025
For this week’s episode, we’re sharing the next Foundations episode of the Living Joyfully Podcast with Pam and Anna, Consent and Consensual Living. Consent is really the backbone of everything we talk about. Everyone, regardless of age, wants agency. When we can shift away from control, because we truly can’t control other people, we move […]
EU388: Bids for Connection
Jul 17, 2025
Join Pam, Anna, and Erika to talk about bids for connection. John and Julie Gottman from the Gottman Institute coined the term “bids for connection” to describe many moments through our days when people in our lives try to connect with us. In our conversation, we talked about what those bids can look like (sometimes […]
EU286 Flashback: Connect with Courage with Roya Dedeaux
Jul 03, 2025
This week, we share a conversation that Pam had with Roya Dedeaux in 2021, diving into her book, Connect with Courage. Roya is a grown unschooler, a marriage and family therapist, and an unschooling mom of three, so she has lots of experience to draw from as she considers how children learn and thrive. In […]
EU387: Foundations: Seeing Through Someone Else’s Eyes
Jun 19, 2025
For this week’s episode, we’re sharing the next Foundations episode of the Living Joyfully Podcast with Pam and Anna, Seeing Through Someone Else’s Eyes. “Seeing through someone else’s eyes” is a shift from the typical phrase, “walking in their shoes.” And it’s a valuable paradigm shift to consider when trying to learn more about the […]
EU386: Building Confidence
Jun 05, 2025
In this episode, Pam, Anna, and Erika talk about building confidence. We had an interesting month in the Living Joyfully Network recently where we dove deep into this topic and it was fascinating how many layers we found to uncover. In this episode, we talk about letting go of comparisons, cultivating trust in ourselves and […]
EU163 Flashback: Growing Up Unschooling with Adrian Peace-Williams
May 22, 2025
This week, we share a conversation that Pam had with Adrian Peace-Williams back in 2019. At the time, she was 24 years old and in college. Pam and Adrian talked about her childhood unschooling, her choice to go to high school, her years of traveling the world after high school, where she was at the […]
EU385: Foundations: People Are Different
May 08, 2025
For this week’s episode, we’re sharing the next Foundations episode of the Living Joyfully Podcast with Pam and Anna, People Are Different. It’s natural to assume that other people see the world in the same way we do, and that they experience and process things just like we do. But in reality, we are all […]
EU384: Unschooling Stumbling Blocks: The Stories We Tell Ourselves
Apr 24, 2025
We are back with another episode in our Unschooling Stumbling Blocks series and this time, we’re talking about the stories we tell ourselves. Stories is a topic that comes up a lot in conversations on the Living Joyfully Network. In fact, we had a monthly theme by that name! When we start to get curious […]
EU105 Flashback: Unschooling Dads with Nick Hess
Apr 10, 2025
In this week’s flashback episode, we’re sharing an interview that Pam had in 2018 with Nick Hess. At the time of the interview, Nick, also known online as The Unschool Dad, and his wife were unschooling their five children. They chatted about about his family’s move to unschooling, what it was about unschooling that resonated […]
EU383: Foundations: Connection
Mar 27, 2025
For this week’s episode, we’re sharing the next Foundations episode of the Living Joyfully Podcast with Pam and Anna, Connection. How connected we’re feeling to the people in our lives is a helpful barometer of our relationships. Feeling disconnected can be a sign that it’s time to more intentionally cultivate connecting moments. Anna shares one […]
EU382: Unschooling Stumbling Blocks: It’s Not the Unschooling
Mar 13, 2025
We are back with another episode in our Unschooling Stumbling Blocks series and this time, we’re talking about how it’s not the unschooling! It can be really common for newer unschoolers to blame unschooling for the things that come up in their family lives. Unschooling was a big new change in their lives, and so […]
EU036 Flashback: Deschooling with Lauren Seaver
Feb 27, 2025
In this week’s flashback episode, we’re sharing an interview that Pam had in 2016 with Lauren Seaver about deschooling. At the time of the interview, Lauren Seaver was an unschooling mom to 9-year-old River. She first considered the possibility of homeschooling way back when she was in college to become a teacher. Life took some […]
EU381: Foundations: Priorities
Feb 13, 2025
For this week’s episode, we’re sharing the first Foundations episode of the Living Joyfully Podcast with Pam and Anna, Priorities. We are handed a set of priorities by society and our culture, but when we really consider ourselves and our personal values, we can see how individual our priorities can be! When we choose priorities […]
EU380: Revitalizing Our Nest
Jan 30, 2025
In this episode, Pam, Anna, and Erika talk about revitalizing our nests. Our homes are such an important part of our unschooling lives. We can get open and curious and creatively find ways to make the spaces in our home fit the individual people in our family. After all, people are different! We share examples […]
EU379: Unschooling Stumbling Blocks: Personal Hygiene
Jan 16, 2025
We are back with another episode in our Unschooling Stumbling Blocks series and we’re talking about personal hygiene. Questions and concerns about hygiene come up regularly in parenting circles and, in unschooling communities, this topic can sometimes trigger fear. We wanted to dive into personal hygiene to address some of the most common areas that […]
EU378: Bringing a Playful Energy to Our Days
Jan 02, 2025
In this episode, Pam, Anna, and Erika explore bringing a playful energy to our days. Shifting to a playful energy can be helpful when we’re feeling stuck, with spinning thoughts, worrying about the future, or focused on external expectations. We can cultivate a lightness and curiosity that helps us get creative and come up with […]
EU377: Consent and Autonomy
Dec 19, 2024
In this episode, Pam, Anna, and Erika dive into consent and autonomy. Moving towards respecting our children’s autonomy and consent is typically an important part of the unschooling journey. In our conversation, we talk about independence vs autonomy, looking for underlying needs, questioning societal messages, and moving from control to connection with our children. We […]
EU376: Unschooling Stumbling Blocks: Weaving In Our Needs
Dec 05, 2024
We are back with another episode in our Unschooling Stumbling Blocks series and we’re talking about weaving in our needs. When we first come to unschooling, it’s common to start questioning the traditional roles of parent and child. Maybe we go from seeing adult needs as the priority and then we swing on the pendulum […]
EU375: Supporting Our Children’s Inner Voices
Nov 21, 2024
In this episode, Pam, Anna, and Erika dive into supporting our children’s inner voices. External messages and cultural roles can disconnect us from our internal wisdom and knowing. Our unschooling lives give us an opportunity to provide time and space for our children to really tune into their inner voices, and showing them that we […]
EU374: Beyond the Golden Rule
Nov 07, 2024
In this episode, Pam, Anna, and Erika explore the popular maxim known as the Golden Rule, which states, “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.” Once we realize how different people are, however, we can see how treating others how we would like to be treated may fall short in our […]
EU373: Navigating Disagreements with Our Partner
Oct 24, 2024
In this episode, Pam, Anna, and Erika talk about navigating disagreements with our partner. No matter how harmonious your relationship, disagreements will inevitably come up between two people. We share some tools that can help us navigate disagreements and give a few examples from our own lives where these have come into play. We hope […]
EU372: Building Trust with Our Kids
Oct 10, 2024
In this episode, Pam, Anna, and Erika talk about building trust with our children. We regularly mention trust on the podcast, as we’ve found that trust is the foundation of the strong relationships that help unschooling thrive. We had a lot of fun talking about ways to build trust in and with our children. We […]
We are back with another episode in our Unschooling Stumbling Blocks series and we’re talking about transitional ages and seasons. While there is definitely not one path through childhood, there are common transitional ages where major changes typically occur. In this episode, we talk about some shifts that happen from the toddler to child years, […]
EU370: There’s Plenty of Time
Sep 12, 2024
In this episode, Pam, Anna, and Erika talk about one of Anna’s favorite sayings, “There’s plenty of time.” This mindset shift is so helpful in many different circumstances, making it a very useful tool! We talk about using it in busy moments, when thinking about learning and child development, and even in more urgent situations. […]
EU369: Unschooling Stumbling Blocks: People Are Different
Aug 29, 2024
We are back with another episode in our Unschooling Stumbling Blocks series and we’re talking about how people are different. “People are different” has become a common refrain on the Exploring Unschooling Podcast and in the Living Joyfully Network and for good reason! Once we sink into the reality that people are truly so different—their […]
EU368: Curiosity-Led Learning
Aug 15, 2024
In this episode, Pam, Anna, and Erika talk about curiosity-led learning. We thought this would be a fun topic to dive into during this back-to-school season! Focusing on curiosity—our own and our kids’—can be so grounding. In this episode, we explore the definition of learning, how school-based learning looks different than learning through unschooling, and […]
Teachers Turned Unschoolers (EU282 Encore)
Aug 01, 2024
Let’s dive into a question I get pretty regularly, and that’s whether I have podcast episodes with unschooling parents that used to be teachers. It’s fun to ponder the why behind the question. Does it seem like a strange leap to make? To me, choosing teaching indicates an interest in children and in learning, so […]
Anna, Erika, and I dive into listener questions! We talk about the fears and doubts that come up at the start of the unschooling journey, the idea of wanting to measure success, and what to do when a child is interested in a topic that seems too grown up for them. And as I mention […]
Anna, Erika, and I dive into listener questions! We talk about navigating sibling and friend relationships, the idea of self-regulation when it comes to technology, and the journey of finding community and connection for ourselves and our children. And as I mention at the beginning of our conversation, our Q&A conversations aren’t focused on giving […]
Exploring Unschooling Q&A (EU322 Encore)
Jun 20, 2024
Anna, Erika, and I dive into listener questions! We talk about cocooning and connecting with young teens, the mainstream concept of productivity and how we get curious about external messages of judgment, and the idea of an “ideal unschooler.” And as I mention at the beginning of our conversation, our Q&A conversations aren’t focused on […]
Exploring Unschooling Q&A (EU314 Encore)
Jun 06, 2024
Anna, Erika, and I dive into listener questions! We explore technology and “screen time,” deschooling, connection, and validation. And as I mention at the beginning of our conversation, our Q&A conversations aren’t focused on giving anyone the “right” answer. That’s because there isn’t a universal “right” answer for any given situation that will work for […]
EU367: The Abundance Mindset
May 23, 2024
In this episode, Pam, Anna, and Erika explore the abundance mindset. We often find ourselves thinking about abundance versus scarcity in conversations on the podcast and in the Living Joyfully Network. In this episode, we dive into the many ways that shifting to abundance has helped us and our families with creative problem solving. We […]
EU366: Talking Consent with Sara Davidson
May 09, 2024
Pam and Anna are joined by Living Joyfully Network member Sara Davidson to talk about what she’s been learning about consent. Sara was previously on the podcast in episode 312. It was great to hear her family updates and to dive deep into the topic of consent. We talked about four different types of consent, […]
EU365: The Independence Agenda
Apr 25, 2024
In this episode, Pam, Anna, and Erika dive into a very interesting lens on parenting—the independence agenda. It’s fascinating to see how this seemingly reasonable goal of fostering our children’s independence can get in the way of not only our relationship with them, but their developing self-awareness and inner voice. We talk about how different […]
EU364: Unschooling Stumbling Blocks: Including Kids in Decisions
Apr 11, 2024
We are back with another episode in our Unschooling Stumbling Blocks series and we’re talking about including kids in decisions. There are many reasons why parents may rush through big decisions without giving children a chance to weigh in, but we’ve found that including kids in decisions provides us with useful questions and information, helps […]
EU363: Deschooling
Mar 28, 2024
Deschooling is a bit of a buzzword in homeschooling and alternative education spaces at the moment. So, let’s dive in! Pam, Anna, and Erika talk about the definition of the word, what that transition to unschooling can look like for parents and adults, the importance of letting go of expectations, some of the paradigm shifts […]
EU362: On the Journey with Kendel Ricker
Mar 14, 2024
We’re back with another On the Journey episode! We had a delightful conversation with Living Joyfully Network member Kendel Ricker. Kendel is an unschooling mom of two kids, 11 and 9, and she shared some of her journey with us. Kendel’s own education included homeschooling, private school, and public school, as well as university and […]
EU361: Siblings
Feb 29, 2024
In this episode, Pam, Anna, and Erika explore the sibling dynamic and some of the questions that come up when unschooling families navigate sibling relationships. We talk about letting go of expectations, watching out for casting our children in roles, understanding our own triggers, and how “fair” doesn’t mean “equal.” We hope you find our […]
EU360: What’s So Magical About Age 18?
Feb 15, 2024
What’s so magical about age 18? Pam, Anna, Erika, and our guest Erin dig into the transition from childhood to adulthood and what it means for our unschooled kids. It’s common for parents to bump up against some cultural beliefs about this phase of life and inadvertently put expectations on young adults. Strangers, friends, and […]
EU359: Unschooling Stumbling Blocks: Quitting vs Sticking It Out
Feb 01, 2024
In this episode, we are starting a new series called Unschooling Stumbling Blocks, where we talk about common challenges on the unschooling journey. For this first stumbling block, Pam, Anna, and Erika talk about “quitting” vs “sticking it out.” This idea comes up in parenting regardless of whether you’re unschooling or not. Do we need […]
EU358: On the Journey with Jahaira Luzzi
Jan 18, 2024
This week, we’re back with another On the Journey episode. Pam and Erika are joined by Living Joyfully Network member Jahaira Luzzi. Jahaira is an unschooling mom of two, ages 6 and 8, and a former early childhood educator. We talk about Jahaira’s path to unschooling, including her exploration of various types of elementary schools […]
EU357: Building Community
Jan 04, 2024
In this episode, Pam, Anna, and Erika dive deep into building community. As we regularly mention, people are different, and each member of your family will likely have different needs for community, friendship, and social time. We talk about in-person versus online connections, the value of interest-based communities, some of the many different ways we’ve […]
Harbor Highlights, Issue #1
Dec 28, 2023
Pam shares the first edition of Harbor Highlights, the new monthly audio dispatch she’s creating for her Patreon supporters. In it, she’ll be sharing the behind-the-scenes details of her next grand adventure! Listen in to learn more. And click here to join her on Patreon! Note that it’s only her Patreon page name that has […]
EU356: Unschooling “Rules”: About Food
Dec 07, 2023
We’re back with another episode in our Unschooling “Rules” series. And we use the word “rules” in quotes to draw attention to the fact that there is no such thing as an unschooling rule! It can feel easier to reach for a set of rules to follow, especially when we’re learning something new, but we […]
Podcast Update, Nov 2023
Nov 27, 2023
Quick Links Check out the Black Friday-inspired bundle specials on the newly refreshed Living Joyfully Shop! Transcript Hello, everyone! I’m Pam Laricchia from Living Joyfully and I’m popping in to share a couple of bits of news with you. First is the Black Friday-inspired sale happening in the Living Joyfully Shop right now! It runs […]
EU355: Unschooling “Rules”: Freedom Leads to Self-Regulation
Nov 16, 2023
We’re back with another episode in our Unschooling “Rules” series. And we use the word “rules” in quotes to draw attention to the fact that there is no such thing as an unschooling rule! It can feel easier to reach for a set of rules to follow, especially when we’re learning something new, but we […]
EU354: Unschooling “Rules”: Unschoolers Should Never Divorce
Oct 05, 2023
On this episode of the podcast, we’re sharing another entry in our Unschooling “Rules” series. We use the word “rules” in quotes to draw attention to the fact that there is no such thing as an unschooling rule! It can feel easier to reach for a set of rules to follow, especially when we’re learning […]
Redefining Success and Parent-Child Relationships
Sep 21, 2023
This week on the podcast, we’re sharing a conversation I had recently for the Self Directed Podcast with Jesper and Cecilie Conrad. It was such an invigorating conversation that I asked if we could share it here as well and they graciously agreed. We dive into the art of fostering strong, respectful, and trusting parent-child […]
EU353: Unschooling “Rules”: Unschooling is Child-Led
Sep 07, 2023
This week on the podcast, we’re sharing a new episode in the Unschooling “Rules” series. We use the word “rules” in quotes to draw attention to the fact that there is no such thing as an unschooling rule! It can feel easier to reach for a set of rules to follow, especially when we’re learning […]
EU138 Flashback: The Sparkle of Unschooling
Aug 24, 2023
This week on the podcast, we’re sharing a compilation of experienced unschooling parents answering the question, “Looking back, what has been the most valuable outcome from choosing unschooling?” Another apt title might be Remembering Our Why, which is why we think it’s especially powerful to listen to during this back-to-school season. When we are able to […]
EU352: Unschooling “Rules”: Unschoolers Are Always Happy
Aug 03, 2023
This week on the podcast, we’re sharing a new episode in the Unschooling “Rules” series. We use the word “rules” in quotes to draw attention to the fact that there is no such thing as an unschooling rule! It can feel easier to reach for a set of rules to follow, especially when we’re learning […]
EU351: Bringing It Home: Navigating Technology
Jul 06, 2023
This week on the podcast, we’re diving into another Bringing It Home episode. We’re looking deeper at our last Unschooling “Rules” topic, that unschoolers have unlimited screen time, and exploring what it can look like to navigate technology with our unschooling families. Unsurprisingly, there is no one right approach. It’s so much about seeing through […]
EU350: On the Journey with Sarah McMackin
Jun 08, 2023
This week, we’re back with another On the Journey episode. Pam, Anna, and Erika are joined by Living Joyfully Network member Sarah McMackin. Sarah is an unschooling mom to Eamon, who just turned seven. She also runs a restaurant in Austin, TX with her husband, Ray. We talk about Sarah’s experience unschooling an only child, […]
EU349: Unschooling “Rules”: Unlimited Screen Time
May 25, 2023
This week on the podcast, we’re sharing a new episode in the Unschooling “Rules” series! We use the word “rules” in quotes to draw attention to the fact that there is no such thing as an unschooling rule! It can feel easier to reach for a set of rules to follow, especially when we’re learning […]
EU348: Q&A Deep Dive
May 11, 2023
In this week’s Exploring Unschooling podcast episode, we’re diving deep into a listener question submitted by Michelle in Texas. She writes, I listened to the episode with Xander regarding gaming, and it really helped change my perspective, especially during this unschooling phase. The question that keeps coming for us is definitely fear-based, but for good […]
EU347: Bringing It Home: Staying Up Late
Apr 27, 2023
This week on the podcast, we’re diving into another Bringing It Home episode. We’re looking deeper at our last Unschooling “Rules” topic, that unschoolers don’t have bedtimes, and exploring what it can look like to navigate staying up late with our unschooling families. Unsurprisingly, there is no one right approach. It’s so much about seeing […]
EU346: On the Journey with Cassie Emmott
Apr 13, 2023
This week, we’re back with another On the Journey episode. Pam, Anna, and Erika are joined by Living Joyfully Network member Cassie Emmott. Cassie is an unschooling mom with four children with diverse needs. She shares her path to unschooling and some insightful reflections about parenting and deschooling. We talk about navigating challenging seasons and […]
EU345: Unschooling “Rules”: No Bedtimes
Mar 30, 2023
This week on the podcast, we’re sharing a new episode in the Unschooling “Rules” series! We use the word “rules,” in quotes, to draw attention to the fact that there is no such thing as an unschooling rule! It can feel easier to reach for a set of rules to follow, especially when we’re learning […]
EU344: Q&A Deep Dive
Mar 16, 2023
In this week’s Exploring Unschooling podcast episode, we’re diving deep into a listener question submitted by Julie in Ontario. She writes, How would you encourage parents to best unschool themselves? I’d really like to be a better example of someone who follows their passions. My husband would love to do a job more suited to […]
EU343: Bringing It Home: Navigating Lessons
Mar 02, 2023
This week on the podcast, we’re diving into another Bringing It Home episode. We’re looking deeper at our last Unschooling “Rules” topic, that unschoolers don’t use curriculum, and exploring what it can look like to navigate lessons and adult-led activities with our unschooling families. Unsurprisingly, there is no one right approach. It’s so much about […]
EU342: Helping Kids Find Their Passion
Feb 16, 2023
This week on the podcast, we’re sharing a talk that Pam gave at the 2022 Canadian Online Homeschool Conference, Helping Kids Find Their Passion. Following our children’s interests and passions is one of the joys of unschooling. And truly, humans are born curious. As parents, we can give our children the gift of encouraging that […]
EU341: Unschooling “Rules”: Don’t Use Curriculum
Feb 02, 2023
This week on the podcast, we’re sharing our second episode in the Unschooling “Rules” series! We use the word “rules,” in quotes, to draw attention to the fact that there is no such thing as an unschooling rule! It can feel easier to reach for a set of rules to follow, especially when we’re learning […]
EU340: On the Journey with Nora McDonald
Jan 19, 2023
This week, we’re back with another On the Journey episode. Pam, Anna, and Erika are joined by Living Joyfully Network member Nora McDonald. Nora is an unschooling mom of two living in Costa Rica. She shares her journey to unschooling as well as two major a-ha moments she has had in the last year. We […]
EU339: Q&A Deep Dive
Jan 05, 2023
In this week’s Exploring Unschooling podcast episode, we’re diving deep into a listener question submitted by Jessie in Colorado. She wants to explore a quote from Free to Learn that took her off guard, which is: One proviso, though. Unschooling won’t work well if you actively avoid having your family interact with the world, with […]
EU338: A Conversation with Lore Blancke
Dec 08, 2022
This week, we’re sharing a conversation Anna Brown and I had recently with Lore Blancke on her podcast, Intimate Breath. Lore came across unschooling and the Exploring Unschooling podcast and was intrigued by the similarities she found with her work as she listened. And while she’s not a parent herself, her enthusiasm was apparent when […]
EU337: Bringing It Home: Yes Energy
Nov 24, 2022
This week on the podcast, we’re sharing our first Bringing It Home episode. In this series, we’re going to dive even deeper into the topics that we explore in the Unschooling “Rules” series, with an eye to showing how these concepts come up in our real lives and the many possibilities for how to approach […]
EU336: On the Journey with Josh Ellis
Nov 10, 2022
This week, we are excited to share our first episode in our new On the Journey series! Anna, Erika, and I are excited to bring guests on the podcast to share their experiences. We’ll be talking about paradigm shifts, a-ha moments, challenges they’ve faced, and realizations they’ve made on their unschooling journey. In this episode, […]
EU335: Unschooling “Rules”: Always Say Yes
Oct 27, 2022
This week, I’m excited to share our first episode in the Unschooling “Rules” series! We use the word “rules,” in quotes, to draw attention to the fact that there is no such thing as an unschooling rule! It can feel easier to reach for a set of rules to follow, especially when we’re learning something […]
EU334: Q&A Deep Dive
Oct 13, 2022
In the intro, I share my new vision for the podcast: helping people figure out how to apply bigger picture unschooling ideas in their everyday lives. I want to help listeners explore how these big unschooling ideas work on a more practical level. In real life, with the real people that make up our family. […]
EU213 Flashback: Unschooling and Math with Marcella O’Brien
Oct 06, 2022
This week, I’m sharing a popular episode from early 2020 with unschooling mom Marcella O’Brien. Marcella’s grown sons, Jack and Sean, have also joined me in Growing Up Unschooling episode 181. Marcella’s experience as a public school teacher and math tutor gives her a unique perspective, which led to an interesting conversation about math in […]
EU239 Flashback: Unschooling Dads with Roop Bhadury
Sep 29, 2022
This week, I’m sharing a fun conversation I had with unschooling dad Roop Bhadury. I connected with Roop through his wife Susan, who is a member of the Living Joyfully Network. She has also joined me on the podcast in episode 220. Roop and Susan live with their now three young children in Australia. It […]
EU119 Flashback: Gaming and Growing Up Unschooling with Xander MacSwan
Sep 22, 2022
I get so many questions about “screen time” and video games and how they fit into an unschooling life, so I thought it might be helpful and fun to reshare a conversation I had with Xander MacSwan in 2018. Xander left school in the 5th grade when his parents—both professors in the University of Maryland’s […]
EU111 Flashback: Ten Questions with Jan Fortune
Sep 15, 2022
This week, I’m sharing a conversation I had with Jan Fortune back in 2018. Jan home educated her four children in the UK and wrote many articles and five books on unschooling and parenting. Her book Winning Parent, Winning Child, focuses on living with children in ways that respect their autonomy. In our conversation, Jan shares […]
EU207 Flashback: Advice from Grown Unschoolers
Sep 08, 2022
It’s compilation episode time again! This week, I’m sharing one of our listener favorites from 2019, a collection of conversations with grown unschoolers in which they offer their thoughts for newer unschooling parents. I’ve woven together answers from eleven episodes featuring twelve grown unschoolers. I think you’ll find their answers helpful and enlightening wherever you […]
This week, we’re revisiting a popular compilation episode from last year. Many people have asked me whether any former or current teachers have been interviewed on the podcast. And the answer to that question is a big YES! We have had more than 20 podcast episodes featuring guests who were or are teachers or university […]
EU333: Exploring Unschooling Q&A
Aug 25, 2022
Anna Brown and Erika Ellis join me again this week to dive into listener questions! We talk about the fears and doubts that come up at the start of the unschooling journey, the idea of wanting to measure success, and what to do when a child is interested in a topic that seems too grown […]
EU332: An Unschooling Journey with Jae Williams, Part 3
Aug 18, 2022
This week, I’m sharing the second part of my recent conversation with Jae Williams (you can listen to the first half here). Jae is a former teacher and new unschooling dad of two young children. We first spoke about a year ago, right at the start of his deschooling journey. It was great to catch […]
EU331: An Unschooling Journey with Jae Williams, Part 2
Aug 11, 2022
Jae Williams is a former teacher and new unschooling dad of two young children. I first spoke to Jae when he was about two months into his unschooling journey, in episode 290. It’s been a year now and we had so much to catch up on! Jae and I talked about the inner work of […]
EU330 Bonus Episode: A Peek Inside the Living Joyfully Network
Aug 08, 2022
I’ve mentioned the Living Joyfully Network online community here and there on the podcast over the last couple of years, sometimes sharing the theme we’re exploring that month or testimonials from members. But I feel like that doesn’t actually say much about what we get up to in this rich and vibrant community. So, for […]
EU023 Flashback: Learning to Read in Their Own Time with Anne Ohman
Aug 04, 2022
Anne Ohman is a long-time unschooling mom of two grown children. Back in 2016, Anne and I had a lovely conversation about reading that I have referenced countless times over the years. When we spoke, she was working as a library director, giving her powerful insights and amazing stories to share about children learning to […]
EU154 Flashback: Unschooling Dads and Documentaries with Jeremy Stuart
Jul 28, 2022
This week, I’m sharing a conversation I had a few years ago with unschooling dad and filmmaker Jeremy Stuart. Jeremy directed and co-produced the documentary film, Class Dismissed, which was released in 2015. Since then, it has been screened in more than 60 countries and translated into five languages. His second documentary, Self-Taught, which explores the […]
EU038 Flashback: Time to Think
Jul 21, 2022
This week, I want to share one of my conference talks, Time to Think. So many of the questions and concerns we hear from unschooling parents boil down to the fears that bubble up when we project our current situation into the future. So, it’s not surprising that the value of bringing ourselves back into […]
EU090 Flashback: Growing Up Unschooling with Phoebe Wahl
Jul 14, 2022
This week on the podcast, I’m sharing a conversation I had with grown unschooler Phoebe Wahl a few years ago. Phoebe is an artist whose beautiful work focuses on the themes of comfort, nostalgia, and intimacy. After first grade, Phoebe left school and dove into unschooling. She graduated from Rhode Island School of Design in […]
EU329: Unschooling Stories with Jennifer McGrail
Jul 07, 2022
Jennifer McGrail, long-time unschooling mom of four, joins me on the podcast this week. I last spoke with Jennifer on the podcast in episode 18 and her kids have grown a lot since then! Jennifer shares a family update and we dive deep into how parenting and unschooling change as teenagers transition into young adults. […]
EU007 Flashback: Diving into Parenting with Anna Brown
Jun 30, 2022
This week, we’re going alllll the way back to episode 7 to revisit a wonderful conversation I had with Anna Brown about parenting. I had been inspired by one of Anna’s conference talks and was so excited to dive deeper into these concepts with her. We talked about uncovering underlying needs during conflict, validation and […]
EU027 Flashback: Ten Questions with Teresa Graham Brett
Jun 23, 2022
This week on the podcast, we’re revisiting a conversation I had with Teresa Graham Brett back in 2016. Teresa is currently the associate dean of diversity and inclusion at the University of Arizona’s College of Veterinary Medicine. She’s an unschooling mom of two and author of the book Parenting for Social Change. Teresa’s background as a […]
EU042 Flashback: Curious and Engaged
Jun 16, 2022
This week, I’m re-sharing one of my conference talks, Curious and Engaged, with you! Here’s the description: Our conventional society honours learning deeply, yet its definition has steadily narrowed over the years to checking off curriculum expectations and awarding graduation certificates. Does this restrictive view do learning justice? What if real learning is bigger than that? […]
EU116 Flashback: Growing Up Unschooling with Summer Jean
Jun 09, 2022
Back in 2018, I spoke to Summer Jean about her experience growing up unschooling. We talked about how her mom came to unschooling, how they dealt with disapproval from extended family members, how her interest in glass art came about, and some of the common questions she gets when people learn she didn’t go to […]
EU328: Exploring Unschooling Q&A
Jun 02, 2022
Anna Brown and Erika Ellis join me again this week to dive into listener questions! We talk about navigating sibling and friend relationships, the idea of self-regulation when it comes to technology, and the journey of finding community and connection for ourselves and our children. As always, our Q&A conversations aren’t focused on giving anyone […]
EU084 Flashback: Enjoy Parenting with Scott Noelle
May 26, 2022
This week on the podcast, I’m sharing a conversation I had with Scott Noelle, unschooling dad of two, back in 2017. Scott is an author and a life coach dedicated to supporting parents who want to move away from control-based parenting methods. He founded The Daily Groove, an email newsletter and website where he shared […]
EU125 Flashback: Challenges on the Unschooling Journey
May 19, 2022
This week, we are revisiting the first compilation episode I ever created for the podcast! I gathered clips from fourteen different episodes where I asked some version of this question: “What has been one of the more challenging aspects for you on your unschooling journey?” It is so interesting to hear a wide variety of different […]
EU238 Flashback: Deschooling with Jessica Kane
May 12, 2022
This week, I’m sharing a lovely conversation I had with Jessica Kane in 2020. Jessica and her husband live in Ireland and have three children. Her oldest attended school through high school, her middle son left school in grade 4, and her youngest son has never been to school. This gives her such a unique […]
EU037 Flashback: Ten Questions with Carol Black
May 05, 2022
In 2016, I asked Carol Black ten questions about her unschooling journey. Her two daughters were then 22 and 26. We talked about her documentary, Schooling the World, as well as her popular essay, A Thousand Rivers. Carol approaches unschooling and parenting from a cultural lens, through which she’s made many valuable connections and insights. […]
EU327: Exploring Unschooling Q&A
Apr 28, 2022
Anna Brown and Erika Ellis join me again this week to dive into listener questions! We talk about navigating a dyslexia/dysgraphia diagnosis, sharing unschooling information and parenting ideas with grandparent caregivers, and the mental overwhelm that can occur at the beginning of the deschooling journey. As always, our Q&A conversations aren’t focused on giving anyone […]
EU326: Walking Together: Seeing the World through Your Child’s Eyes
Apr 21, 2022
This week on the podcast I share a talk I wrote in 2015, Walking Together: Seeing the World through Your Child’s Eyes. In this talk, I dive into some of things I’ve learned on my unschooling journey about the value of walking together through our days with our children. I touch on: Then I talk about […]
EU325: Unschooling through Menopause with Sara Yasner
Apr 14, 2022
Sara Yasner joins me on the podcast this week. Sara is an unschooling mom of three and we talk about unschooling alongside her experience going through menopause. Sara’s two sons are older now, but her daughter, Pamela, is nine. We talk about her family’s flow and how the addition of Pamela shifted things for everyone […]
EU324: Open and Queerious with Ellie Winicour
Apr 07, 2022
Ellie Winicour joins me on the podcast this week! Ellie, her wife Jodi, and 8-year-old Celia have always unschooled, following Celia’s interests and flow. Ellie shares some of her experience embracing pretend play and the deep connection that comes from stepping away from the mainstream adult-child power dynamic. She also shares how she has intentionally […]
EU323: Spinning a Web: The Art of Learning
Mar 31, 2022
This week on the podcast I share a talk I wrote in 2014, Spinning a Web: The Art of Learning. With unschooling, learning often looks very different than what we’ve been taught to expect, so it can take a while to recognize it in action. And then it takes time to figure out how, as […]
EU322: Exploring Unschooling Q&A
Mar 24, 2022
Anna Brown and Erika Ellis join me again this week to dive into listener questions! We talk about cocooning and connecting with young teens, the mainstream concept of productivity and how we get curious about external messages of judgment, and the idea of an “ideal unschooler.” As always, our Q&A conversations aren’t focused on giving […]
EU321: A Passion for Creative Writing
Mar 17, 2022
This week on the podcast, I am joined by two teenage writers, Isabella Watkins and Caitlin Wharton, and their mentor, Milva McDonald. The three of them share their experience creating and participating in a homeschool creative writing group. This past year, they published an anthology of short stories and poetry and they describe some of […]
EU320: Amy’s Unschooling Journey with Amy Hughes
Mar 10, 2022
Amy Hughes, unschooling mom of eight children, joins me on the podcast this week. Over the years, Amy’s family moved from school to homeschooling to Charlotte Mason and finally to unschooling. She shares the big a-ha that led her to unschooling as well as how unschooling works in her large family. We talk about Amy’s […]
EU319: Unschooling Stories with Missy Willis
Mar 03, 2022
Missy Willis, a longtime unschooling mom of two, joins me again on the podcast this week to share more about her unschooling journey. We talk about the way that unschooling leads us to question everything, from conventional parenting and education to productivity and success. And we dive deep into a few common misconceptions about peaceful […]
EU318: Exploring Unschooling Q&A
Feb 24, 2022
Anna Brown and Erika Ellis join me again this week to dive into listener questions! We explore the idea of unschooling philosophy and strong beliefs, how gaming and unschooling might go together, and the idea of “self-directed” learning. And, as always, our Q&A conversations aren’t focused on giving anyone the “right” answer, because there isn’t […]
EU317: Unschooling in Context with Anna Brown
Feb 17, 2022
Anna Brown joins me for another Unschooling in Context episode! This time, we explore unschooling in the context of boundaries, comfort zones, and capacity. This topic came up as we were diving into cultivating self-awareness in the Living Joyfully Network last month and we wanted to talk about it here too! Setting boundaries is a […]
EU316: Teens and Passions with Robyn Robertson
Feb 10, 2022
Robyn Robertson, unschooling mom of two, joins me again on the podcast this week. Since our last conversation in 2018, Robyn’s kids have grown! We talk about how unschooling changes when our children become teenagers. Robyn shares how supporting their interests and passions looks different now, but that the connection and relationships are still strong. […]
EU315: Nurturing Our Children and Ourselves with Teresa Hess
Feb 03, 2022
Teresa Hess, unschooling mom of three, joins me again on the podcast this week to explore how her unschooling journey has helped her not only nurture her children but re-parent herself. We talk about Teresa’s spiritual view of unschooling and the upward spiral of connection and love that happens when we see children as whole […]
EU314: Exploring Unschooling Q&A
Jan 27, 2022
Anna Brown and Erika Ellis join me this week to dive into listener questions! We explore technology and “screen time,” deschooling, connection, and validation. And as I mention at the beginning of our conversation, our Q&A conversations aren’t focused on giving anyone the “right” answer. That’s because there isn’t a universal “right” answer for any […]
EU313: Advice for New Unschooling Dads
Jan 20, 2022
This week, I’ve put together a compilation episode with answers to a question I ask many of the unschooling dads who are on the podcast: As an unschooling dad, what piece of advice would you like to share with dads who are considering or just starting out on this journey? And I love the range […]
EU312: The Breadth of Unschooling with Sara Davidson
Jan 13, 2022
Sara Davidson, unschooling mom of two, joins me on the podcast this week to explore the breadth of unschooling. Sara shares her journey from controlling, conventional parenting to the connected relationships she has with her children now. We talk about many of the paradigm shifts she made along the way and how her entire view […]
EU311: Ten Questions with Erika Ellis
Jan 06, 2022
Erika Ellis joins me again on the podcast this week! On previous episodes, Erika and I have talked about unschooling book clubs and self care, but she’s back to share more about her unschooling journey. We talk about the paradigm shifts that she made during deschooling and how her and her husband’s teaching work influenced […]
EU310: Unschooling Through the Teen Years
Dec 30, 2021
We may have been unschooling pretty comfortably for years, connecting with our kids, having fun, actively supporting them as they pursue their interests, but then our eldest approaches the teen years and all of a sudden we start to feel a bit uncomfortable. We begin to worry. Is unschooling going to work through the teen […]
EU309: Deschooling with Christina Kauffman
Dec 23, 2021
Christina Kauffman is an unschooling mom of three young kids, and she joins me this week to talk about her deschooling journey. We explore both what she’s found challenging and what she’s found surprising so far. She also shares her experience with navigating sibling dynamics. We have a lovely conversation! Watch the YouTube video QUESTIONS […]
EU308: Unschooling Dads with Philip Mott
Dec 16, 2021
Philip Mott, a former teacher and unschooling dad to three young children, joins me this week. Philip shares how his unschooling journey began and how his experience as a teacher and what he learned about educational philosophy shaped his path. We talk about the challenges of deschooling and how ingrained our cultural beliefs really are. […]
EU307: How Unschooling Grows with Fran Liberatore
Dec 09, 2021
Fran Liberatore, unschooling mom of two and the creator behind the Instagram account Big Mothering, joins me this week to talk about her unschooling journey so far. Fran, currently working on her master’s degree in early years education, shares some of her reflections about educational philosophy and practice and how she hopes to see schools […]
EU306: Unschooling Seasons with Iris Chen
Dec 02, 2021
Iris Chen, author of Untigering and mother of two, returns to the podcast this week to share what their unschooling lives look like right now and talk about her book. Iris talks about her family’s experience with a self-directed learning center and the path her sons took to make the choice to attend one. We […]
EU305: In Celebration of Unschooling, Part 7
Nov 25, 2021
This week, we’re finishing up my miniseries, In Celebration of Unschooling, sharing the draft of an as yet unpublished book I wrote a few years ago. The book looks at unschooling through the lens of parenting. In chapter 8, Childhood is Bigger Than School, I explore how we can choose to embrace the unschooling mindset […]
EU304: In Celebration of Unschooling, Part 6
Nov 18, 2021
I’m continuing my miniseries, In Celebration of Unschooling, sharing the draft of an as yet unpublished book I wrote a few years ago. The book looks at unschooling through the lens of parenting. This week, we’re diving into Chapter 7: Family Relationships. In this chapter, I explore moving beyond power struggles, the idea of fairness […]
EU303: In Celebration of Unschooling, Part 5
Nov 11, 2021
I’m continuing my miniseries, In Celebration of Unschooling, sharing the draft of an as yet unpublished book I wrote a few years ago. The book looks at unschooling through the lens of parenting. This week, we’re diving into Chapter 6: Exploring Character. In this chapter, I dive into some of the character traits being explored […]
EU302: In Celebration of Unschooling, Part 4
Nov 04, 2021
I’m continuing my miniseries, In Celebration of Unschooling, sharing the draft of an as yet unpublished book I wrote a few years ago. The book looks at unschooling through the lens of parenting. This week, we’re diving into Chapter 5: Cultivating Creativity. In this chapter, I dive into the widely accepted Geneplore model of creativity, […]
EU301: In Celebration of Unschooling, Part 3
Oct 28, 2021
I’m continuing my miniseries, In Celebration of Unschooling, sharing the draft of an as yet unpublished book I wrote a few years ago. The book looks at unschooling through the lens of parenting. This week, we’re diving into Chapter 4: The Joy of Learning. Watch the YouTube video THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODE We […]
EU300: In Celebration of Unschooling, Part 2
Oct 21, 2021
To mark the occasion of hitting 300 episodes, I decided to share the draft of an as yet unpublished book I wrote a few years ago. The book looks at unschooling through the lens of parenting and with an audience in mind who are curious, but maybe haven’t yet made the leap. And I was […]
EU299: In Celebration of Unschooling, Part 1
Oct 14, 2021
Episode 299! Wow. For the last few weeks, I’ve been pondering what I’d like to do to mark the milestone of 300 episodes. Maybe a compilation episode, maybe a solo episode. Hmm. I’ve been doing those regularly for the last while (which I’m loving), so I planted that seed and let it bubble around in […]
EU298: Unschooling Stories with Megan Valnes
Oct 07, 2021
Megan Valnes, an unschooling mom of six, joins me this week to talk about her unschooling journey. Megan was on the podcast once before, way back in 2018, and it was so fun to catch up and see how her life has unfolded since then. She shares some of the challenges of having a large […]
EU297: Cultivating Trust with Anna Brown
Sep 30, 2021
Anna Brown joins me this week to talk about our theme in the Living Joyfully Network this month, Cultivating Trust. This has been such a valuable theme to explore because trust really is foundational to unschooling—I can’t imagine unschooling thriving without trust! We begin by looking at how we can develop trust with our children, […]
EU296: Deschooling Discoveries
Sep 23, 2021
This week, I’ve put together a compilation episode exploring deschooling discoveries. One of the many things I love about the unschooling journey is how unexpected it can be. As we dive deeper and deeper into deschooling, we begin to question so many things! Things we thought were pretty much facts—about children, about learning, about relationships, […]
EU295: Unschooling Dads with Jesper Conrad
Sep 16, 2021
Jesper Conrad joins me this week to talk about his experience as an unschooling dad. Jesper shares his perspective of their family’s decision to unschool, which began when their now 15-year-old son tried kindergarten. We talk about Jesper’s move from an office job to working from home and some of the paradigm shifts that he’s […]
EU294: Worldschooling Nomads with Cecilie Conrad
Sep 09, 2021
Cecilie Conrad joins me from Istanbul this week to talk about her unschooling, worldschooling life with her family. Cecilie shares about her path to unschooling, which started when her second child began attending school. We talk about how her family’s love of travel has enriched their lives and how the unschooling lifestyle fits so well […]
EU293: Raising Free People with Akilah S. Richards
Sep 02, 2021
Akilah S. Richards joins me again to talk about her most recent book, Raising Free People: Unschooling as Liberation and Healing Work. We talk about her definitions of unschooling and deschooling and dive deep into the far-reaching impacts of choosing an unschooling lifestyle. We also dive into some of the profound realizations she’s had about […]
EU292: Embracing Cocoons and Bubbles with Anna Brown
Aug 26, 2021
Anna Brown joins me this week to talk about our monthly theme in the Living Joyfully Network, Embracing Cocoons and Bubbles. It is part of the human experience to have periods of introspection, of pulling inward, processing, and integrating. Our children may lose interest in their usual activities while not yet knowing what’s next for […]
EU291: What to Do Instead of School
Aug 19, 2021
This week, I have a solo episode for you! As the back-to-school energy hits its peak this month, I thought it might be helpful to re-commit to our choice to NOT go back to school. It’s completely understandable to feel a bit off-kilter as the “back to school” messages ramp up around us—be kind to […]
EU290: An Unschooling Journey with Jae Williams, Part 1
Aug 12, 2021
Jae Williams recently decided to leave his teaching job and stay home to dive into unschooling with his two young children. Leading up to this choice, he spent the last year immersed in podcasts and books, exploring natural learning and questioning many mainstream paradigms about children, schooling, and success. We talk about his experience as […]
EU289: Unschooling Dads with Izaak Sibley
Aug 05, 2021
Izaak Sibley joins me this week to share his experience as an unschooling dad. He shares about his own school education, how he saw his love of learning disappear over time, and how unschooling with Q has reignited it. We talk about trusting human curiosity and how he has seen Q’s learning naturally lead in […]
EU288: Sitting with Fear and Discomfort with Anna Brown
Jul 29, 2021
Anna Brown joins me this week to talk about our theme in the Living Joyfully Network this month, Sitting with Fear and Discomfort. This is something that comes up on our unschooling journey pretty regularly because, not only are we challenging lots of cultural norms around learning and parenting, we’re also giving our children space […]
EU287: Why Joy?
Jul 22, 2021
This week, I have a solo episode for you! The idea to share why I focus on joy and the unschooling journey bubbled up a couple of weeks ago and it’s been fun to put this together. And for listeners who may be newer to the podcast, I share a bit about me before diving […]
EU286: Connect with Courage with Roya Dedeaux
Jul 15, 2021
Roya Dedeaux joins me on the podcast this week to talk about her new book Connect with Courage. Roya is a grown unschooler, a marriage and family therapist, and an unschooling mom of three, so she has lots of experience to draw from as she considers how children learn and thrive. In her book, Roya […]
EU285: Unschooling Stories with Erin Rosemond
Jul 08, 2021
Erin Rosemond, an unschooling mom of four, joins me this week to talk about her unschooling journey. Erin shares her earliest reflections on her own schooling experience and how they prepared her for embracing the idea of home educating her children. We dive deep into the ideas of interdependence, collaboration, and kindness, and how unschooling […]
EU284: Deschooling with Lane Clark
Jul 01, 2021
Lane Clark joins me this week to talk about her unschooling journey and to dive into what she’s learned through deschooling. Lane’s journey began when her family was living abroad and felt their best option was homeschooling. When their carefully chosen curriculum didn’t feel like a good fit, she discovered unschooling and has been questioning […]
EU283: The Value of Play with Anna Brown
Jun 24, 2021
This week, Anna Brown and I talk about our theme in the Living Joyfully Network this month, Play! We dive into how integral play is for learning both about the world and about ourselves. We can carry a lot of preconceived notions about play, its value, its place in our lives, even the definition of […]
EU282: Teachers Turned Unschoolers
Jun 17, 2021
This week, I want to dive into another question that I get pretty regularly, and that’s whether I have podcast episodes with unschooling parents that used to be teachers. It’s fun to ponder the why behind the question. Does it seem like a strange leap to make? To me, choosing teaching indicates an interest in […]
EU281: Going Deep with Unschooling with Talia Bartoe
Jun 10, 2021
Talia Bartoe joins me again on the podcast to update us about her family’s unschooling journey. We didn’t know it going in, but it quickly became obvious that the theme of our conversation was “going deep”! Talia generously shares so much about her inner work and the shifts she’s made as part of deschooling and […]
EU280: Growing Up Unschooling with Samantha Donndelinger
Jun 03, 2021
This week, I am joined by 20-year-old Samantha Donndelinger, who has always been unschooled. Samantha shares some of her childhood stories and reflections on growing up unschooling. We talk about how her family’s lifestyle gave each child the space to make choices and figure out their own path, and how making choices and exploring her […]
EU279: Validation with Anna Brown
May 27, 2021
This week, Anna Brown and I talk about our theme in the Living Joyfully Network this month, Validation. Diving deep into validation flows beautifully from last month’s theme of Stories because practicing validation with the people in our lives is about hearing, understanding, and accepting their stories as their truth in the moment. Our connections […]
EU278: Unschooling in Large Families
May 20, 2021
This week, I’ve put together a compilation episode to dive into a question that I get pretty regularly: What does unschooling look like in larger families? As we learn more about unschooling, we’re encouraged to spend time with our kids, to say yes more, to connect with them more, to explore ways to meet everyone’s […]
EU277: Unschooling Q&A with Sue Patterson, Part 2
May 13, 2021
Sue Patterson joins me again this week for the second part of our conversation, diving into three more listener questions. Check out part one here! Watch the YouTube video QUESTION SUMMARIES I feel like I should be finding more friends for my kids to play with, but I’m introverted and it’s hard for me to […]
EU276: Unschooling Q&A with Sue Patterson, Part 1
May 06, 2021
Sue Patterson joins me this week to dive into listener questions! And I’m sure it’ll surprise nobody that our conversation went long, so I’ve split it into two episodes—three questions each. A quick reminder, these Q&A conversations aren’t about giving anyone a “right” answer. We can’t know that because we don’t intimately know the real […]
EU275: Stories with Anna Brown
Apr 29, 2021
Anna Brown joins me this week to talk about our theme in the Living Joyfully Network this month, Stories. Diving into this theme has been fascinating because there are so many ways in which we tell stories as humans, with really far-reaching impacts. We talk about the stories we tell ourselves and our families in […]
EU274: Rules versus Principles
Apr 22, 2021
This week, I’ve put together a solo episode. This episode is geared to parents who are newer to unschooling, navigating the paradigm shifts that come with questioning so much of the conventional wisdom around learning and parenting that we absorbed growing up. Spoiler alert: there are no unschooling “rules.” But I think more experienced unschooling […]
EU272: Our Unschooling Journey with the Beck Family, Part 2
Apr 08, 2021
The Beck family of five—Angie, Darren, Josh, Rylie, and Ellie—are back to continue our conversation about their unschooling journey. We had so much fun chatting and sharing stories that our conversation flowed for about two hours, so I split it across two episodes. Check out part one here! This week, we talk about each of […]
EU271: Our Unschooling Journey with the Beck Family, Part 1
Apr 01, 2021
The Beck family of five—Angie, Darren, Josh, Rylie, and Ellie—joins me this week for a wonderful conversation about their unschooling journey. As you can imagine, the six of us had so much fun chatting and sharing stories that our conversation flowed for about two hours, so I’ve split it across two episodes. In part 1 […]
EU270: Supporting Our Partners with Anna Brown
Mar 25, 2021
This week Anna Brown and I talk about our theme in the Living Joyfully Network this month, Supporting Our Partners. We chose the word “partners” to represent any important adults in our family’s lives who have active relationships with our children—spouses, co-parents, significant others, grandparents, and so on. Our partners are an important part of […]
EU269: Unschooling Doesn’t Spoil Children
Mar 18, 2021
This week, we’re diving into a question that comes up pretty regularly, not just from people new to unschooling but also from extended family and friends when they see our parenting choices in action: Won’t unschooling spoil a child? We look at four examples of parenting behaviours or actions, the typical conventional and unschooling motivations […]
EU268: The Joy of Unschooling with Karen Matthews
Mar 11, 2021
Karen Matthews joins me this week! Karen and her grown son, Tyler, own a furniture and wood craft business together. We talk about how their unschooling journey began and how following Tyler’s interests has not only been a rewarding path for him, but also for her. Karen shares some of the big a-ha moments she […]
EU267: Growing Up Unschooling with Laura and Allen Ellis
Mar 04, 2021
Siblings Laura and Allen Ellis join me this week to talk about growing up unschooling. They share how their childhood interests and experiences connect to the work that they currently do and some of the realizations they made along the way. We talk about the role their mother played in supporting their interests and providing […]
EU266: Finding Our Guides with Anna Brown
Feb 25, 2021
Anna Brown joins me again this week! This month in the Living Joyfully Network, our theme is ‘Finding Our Guides.’ As I wrote about in The Unschooling Journey, our children can serve as our most valuable guides, helping us move through our fears towards joy and connection. Anna and I talk about how handing our […]
EU265: Unschooling Passions
Feb 18, 2021
Pam shares her essay, Unschooling Passions. Unschooling is about learning through living. As unschooling parents, we want to open up the world for our children to explore. But what if your child is passionately interested in just one thing? Doesn’t that close off his access to the world and limit his learning? I have two […]
EU264: Unschooling Stories with Julia Triman
Feb 11, 2021
Julia Triman joins me to share her family’s unschooling journey. As a mom of two young children, Julia reflects on how her understanding of parenting and learning has changed through observation and being present with them. We talk about the incredible depth of her children’s play and how powerful it is that they can choose […]
EU263: Unschooling Paradigm Shifts with Susan Walker
Feb 04, 2021
Susan Walker, who lives in the Patagonia region of Argentina, joins me this week to talk about her family’s unschooling journey and the major paradigm shifts she made along the way. We talk about her discoveries about being highly sensitive and introverted, how diving into unschooling resulted in so much personal growth, and how her […]
EU262: Nurturing Our Children’s Learning with Anna Brown
Jan 28, 2021
Anna Brown joins me again this week! This month in the Living Joyfully Network our theme is Nurturing Our Children’s Learning. We are getting back to the basics of unschooling by observing how children learn through following their interests. Exploring learning through the lenses of curiosity and creativity, we talk about what to do when […]
EU261: Deschooling with Joss Goulden
Jan 21, 2021
Joss Goulden, who lives in Western Australia and is mom to two kids, joins me to talk about her family’s unschooling journey. We talk about how she was inspired by her son’s brief time in kindergarten to make the choice to try unschooling, what her deschooling process looked like, and how she sees learning happening […]
EU260: Unschooling Stories with Betsey Tufano
Jan 14, 2021
Betsey Tufano, an unschooling mother of two living in Barcelona, Spain, joins me this week! Betsey shares many details about her unschooling journey and about the importance of the internal work that she did along the way. We also discuss how her relationship with her partner has changed and deepened through their choice to unschool, […]
EU259: Nuggets of Wisdom from Five Years of the Exploring Unschooling Podcast
Jan 07, 2021
This week marks the five year anniversary of the Exploring Unschooling podcast! To celebrate, I decided to dig into the podcast’s rich treasure trove of unschooling stories and highlight a handful of the many beautiful nuggets of wisdom that guests have shared over these five years. It’s been such a treat to revisit episodes as […]
EU258: Seeing the Magic with Anna Brown
Dec 31, 2020
Anna Brown joins me again this week! This month in the Living Joyfully Network our theme is Seeing the Magic. As we move into the re-invigorating energy of new year, we are turning our attention to connecting with our children and finding the joy in our everyday lives with them. Anna and I talk about […]
EU257: Unschooling Instincts with Ali Walker
Dec 24, 2020
This week, I’m joined by Ali Walker, an unschooling mom and primatologist living in New Zealand. I have gotten to know Ali on the Living Joyfully Network, where she has shared some incredible insights about parenting and unschooling through her lens as a primate researcher focusing on the mother/infant bond. Ali details some of the […]
EU256: Deschooling with Marta Venturini
Dec 17, 2020
Marta Venturini joins me this week! Marta lives with her husband and daughter in Portugal. We dive deep into her unschooling journey, which began when her daughter was an infant, and discuss her deschooling process and how it continued to evolve as she grew as a parent. Marta also shares how much she values the […]
EU255: Choices and Unschooling with Holly Clark
Dec 10, 2020
Holly Clark joins me this week, mom to two always unschooled children living on the Sunshine Coast in Australia. Holly shared so many amazing snippets of their lives which all tied into the idea of choice—the choices we make as parents, the choices our children make, and our choice to support their choices! We also […]
EU254: Finding Unschooling with Daniela Bramwell
Dec 03, 2020
Daniela Bramwell joins me this week, an unschooling mom living in Ecuador. Daniela’s journey is fascinating! As a child, she was a student at an alternative free school, but, as an adult, found herself wondering if there was a better way to approach learning. She dove deep into learning about educational philosophies, including pursuing her […]
EU253: Navigating Family Gatherings with Anna Brown
Nov 26, 2020
Anna Brown joins me this week to talk about navigating family gatherings, the theme this month on the Living Joyfully Network. With the holiday season ramping up, it’s a great time to explore how we choose to engage in larger family celebrations, but the ideas are definitely be applicable throughout the year, from birthday parties […]
EU252: Unschooling Stories with Eva Witsel
Nov 19, 2020
Eva Witsel joins me this week, an unschooling mom and homeschooling activist in the Netherlands. Eva’s journey to unschooling is such an interesting one, as is her varied experience supporting the Dutch homeschooling community and affecting legislation there. We talked a lot about technology, following our passionate interests, supporting children as they become teenagers, and […]
EU251: Unschooling as a Lifestyle with Lucia Silva
Nov 12, 2020
Lucia Silva joins me this week to talk about unschooling as a lifestyle and her journey so far! We talked about how her understanding of unschooling has grown over the past few years and how what she’s learned has benefited all of her relationships. We also dove into the idea of expectations and how conversations […]
EU250: Embracing Unschooling with Donna Anderson
Nov 05, 2020
Donna Anderson joins me this week to talk about her family’s unschooling journey. We dive deep into her family’s interests, some of which are individual and many of which they share as a family. We also explore the idea of an unschooling nest, talk about some of the challenges of deschooling, and how maintaining strong […]
EU249: Unschooling in Context with Anna Brown
Oct 29, 2020
Anna Brown joins me for another Unschooling in Context episode! This time, we explore unschooling in the context of consent. I think consent lies at the heart of unschooling and I’m excited to share my conversation with Anna about what that means and how it informs the ways our families move through the world. It […]
EU248: Favorite Things about Unschooling
Oct 22, 2020
This week, I’ve put together a compilation episode! This time, it’s a collection of responses to the question, “What is your favourite thing about the flow of your unschooling days?” If you’re newer to unschooling, these can be a great reminder of where you’re heading. And if you’re more experienced, they can be a great […]
EU247: From Teaching to Unschooling with Kelsi Stembel
Oct 15, 2020
Kelsi Stembel joins me this week! Kelsi has two teen daughters and is a former teacher turned farmer and entrepreneur. It was a joy to hear about how both her girls have developed and learned at their own pace, honoring their unique styles, and how unschooling has been such an amazing gift for their family. […]
EU246: Unschooling and Neurodiversity with Michelle Morcate
Oct 08, 2020
Michelle Morcate joins me this week to talk about their unschooling journey and how unschooling is such a natural fit when considering neurodiversity because it’s all about facilitating our children as individuals, how they learn, and how they want to move through the world. Michelle’s excitement as an ally and advocate is contagious and we […]
EU245: Unschooling Stories with Cate & Jenna Phillips
Oct 01, 2020
Cate and Jenna Phillips join me to share some of their wonderful unschooling stories! With six children, it was inspiring to hear about how their journey has unfolded as they prioritize relationships, follow their passions, and work together to support each other. Watch the video of our conversation on YouTube QUESTIONS FOR CATE AND JENNA […]
EU244: Not Back to School with Anna Brown
Sep 24, 2020
Anna Brown joins me again this week! This month in the Living Joyfully Network our theme is Not Back to School. It has been a rich month of checking in with ourselves, quieting the outside noise, and focusing on our kids and the joy around us. Anna and I talk about the “back to school” […]
EU243: Parenting Shifts with Sarah Peshek
Sep 17, 2020
Sarah Peshek joins me this week! Sarah is an unschooling mom of three and she shares the details of her journey and her parenting shifts from control to connection. Her insights and experiences are so helpful in really pulling out why this lifestyle is so amazing! How unschooling encourages us to recenter around the person […]
EU242: Deschooling with Nadia Joshua
Sep 10, 2020
Nadia Joshua joins me this week to talk about her family’s move to unschooling and her personal deschooling journey. It was delightful to learn more about her family and how they navigated moving to one income, explored the need to go and do, learned to honour both her daughters and their individual personalities, and lots […]
EU241: Exploring Race, Racism, and Diversity in Unschooling with Erika Davis-Pitre
Sep 03, 2020
Erika Davis-Pitre joins me again this week! I rebroadcast her episode, Unschooling and Diversity, earlier this year and she graciously offered to return and answer listener questions that arose from that episode. The result is this amazing episode with so many actionable steps and layers to peel back for all of us on this unschooling […]
EU240: Kids Are Capable with Anna Brown
Aug 27, 2020
Anna Brown joins me this week to dive into the topic, Kids Are Capable. It’s a foundational principle of unschooling, and seems simple enough, but it’s about so much more than meets the eye! Watch the video of our conversation on YouTube QUESTIONS FOR ANNA Choice is a great lens through which to start looking […]
EU239: Unschooling Dads with Roop Bhadury
Aug 20, 2020
This week I’m joined by unschooling dad, Roop Bhadury. Roop’s wife Susan joined me earlier this year in episode 220. It was such a treat to get to hear about their family from Roop’s perspective but more than that we had an amazing conversation about the philosophies of unschooling and entrepreneurship, life, relationships, we covered […]
EU238: Deschooling with Jessica Kane
Aug 13, 2020
This week, I have a lovely conversation with Jessica Kane. Jessica and her husband live in Ireland, and have three children. Her oldest attended school through high school, her middle son left school in grade 4, and her youngest son has never been to school. This gives her such a unique perspective to share! We […]
EU237: The Unschooling Journey: A Field Guide, Part Six
Aug 06, 2020
This week I’m sharing part six of the audiobook edition of my book, The Unschooling Journey: A Field Guide. Last week, we covered stages ten, eleven, and twelve, ultimately reaching the holy grail of our quest: unschooling with confidence and grace. Let’s do a quick review to set the stage for the final leg of our […]
EU236: The Unschooling Journey: A Field Guide, Part Five
Jul 30, 2020
This week I’m sharing part five of the audiobook edition of my book, The Unschooling Journey: A Field Guide. Last week, we covered stages eight and nine. And while our deschooling story to that point was working through much of the nuts and bolts of unschooling, in stages eight and nine we begin the personal growth […]
EU235: The Unschooling Journey: A Field Guide, Part Four
Jul 23, 2020
This week I’m sharing part four of the audiobook edition of my book, The Unschooling Journey: A Field Guide. Last week, we entered the deschooling phase of our journey and found ourselves on the aptly named road of trials: a series of tests and challenges that the hero faces as they begin this personal transformation in […]
EU234: The Unschooling Journey: A Field Guide, Part Three
Jul 16, 2020
This week I’m sharing part 3 of the audiobook edition of my book, The Unschooling Journey: A Field Guide. One thing I love about looking at our unschooling lives through this lens is how intimately it connects us to the human journey, which can help us feel less alone. Recognizing that yes, other people really […]
EU233: The Unschooling Journey: A Field Guide, Part Two
Jul 09, 2020
This week, I’m sharing part two of the audiobook edition of my book, The Unschooling Journey: A Field Guide. Inspired by Joseph Campbell’s hero’s journey framework, The Unschooling Journey is a weave of myths, contemporary stories, and tales from my journey. It’s not a “how to” book—no two paths through the world of unschooling have the […]
EU232: The Unschooling Journey: A Field Guide, Part One
Jul 02, 2020
This week, I’m sharing part one of the audiobook edition of my book, The Unschooling Journey: A Field Guide. Published in 2018, here’s a bit of the description: Inspired by Joseph Campbell’s hero’s journey framework, The Unschooling Journey is a weave of myths, contemporary stories, and tales from Pam’s journey. It’s not a “how to” […]
EU231: Growing up Unschooling with Michael Laricchia
Jun 25, 2020
My son Michael joins me this week to talk about his experience growing up unschooling! We had a lot of fun diving into his varied interests, the threads that weave through them, and how they have helped shape the person he is today. We also talk about his experience with type 1 diabetes and our […]
EU097 RECAST: Unschooling and Diversity with Erika Davis-Pitre
Jun 18, 2020
This episode was first shared in November of 2017, and I want to share it again now as the Black Lives Matter movement gains important momentum to bring Erika’s valuable experience and insights about diversity and racism through the lens of unschooling back into our conversations. Erika and her husband, Michael have four adult children—they […]
EU230: Unschooling in Context with Anna Brown
Jun 11, 2020
The idea with the unschooling in context episodes is to deepen our understanding of unschooling by exploring it in the context of other, related things. In this episode, we dive into unschooling in the context of parenting and examine some of the paradigm shifts around parenting and parent/child relationships that are integral to helping unschooling […]
EU229: From Control to Connection
Jun 04, 2020
This week, I’ve put together a compilation episode! This time, the lens is on parenting and the shift away from control and toward connection and engagement with our kids. I think you’ll get a lot out of this deep dive. Watch the video of our conversation on YouTube AUDIO CLIPS TAKEN FROM THESE EPISODES … […]
EU002 RECAST: Ten Questions with Pam Sorooshian
May 28, 2020
Pam Sorooshian is a veteran unschooling mom of three now adult daughters. Originally broadcast as the second episode of the podcast, I wanted to bring this gem back into the light! In our conversation, Pam shares so many incredible insights from her experience. She talks about the early years of unschooling, tips on navigating sibling […]
EU228: Free to Learn, Part Three
May 21, 2020
This week, I’m sharing the third and final part of the audiobook recording of my book, Free to Learn: Five Ideas for a Joyful Unschooling Life. This episode dives into the fourth and fifth ideas: instead of ‘no’ and living together. If you haven’t read it yet, this is an opportunity to learn more about […]
EU227: Free to Learn, Part Two
May 14, 2020
This week, I’m sharing part two of the audiobook recording of my book, Free to Learn: Five Ideas for a Joyful Unschooling Life. This episode dives into the second and third ideas: that learning is everywhere and that choices are key to learning. If you haven’t read it yet, this is an opportunity to learn […]
EU226: Free to Learn, Part One
May 07, 2020
For the next while, I’m doing something a little different on the podcast. With many people sheltering in place worldwide due to the coronavirus pandemic, it’s become increasingly challenging to arrange interviews. At first that seemed curious because people are connecting online even more so during these uncertain times. But as I thought more about […]
EU225: Unschooling Stories with Liz Brady
Apr 30, 2020
Liz Brady joins me this week to share some of her family’s unschooling stories. Liz and her husband live with their four boys in Western Australia. We dive into how she discovered unschooling, her parenting journey, and the gift of sharing her life with so many unique and dynamic personalities. The love and joy shines […]
EU224: Deschooling with Fiona Munday
Apr 23, 2020
Fiona Munday joins me this week. Fiona and her husband live with their 4.5-year-old son in New Zealand and she dove into researching unschooling when her son was a baby. We have fun exploring her journey and she shares some of the wonderful insights and a-ha moments she’s already experienced—including applying the same principles to […]
EU223: Unschooling with Young Kids with Eva Whipple
Apr 16, 2020
Eva Whipple joins me this week! With children ages four and two, she and her husband have always known that they wouldn’t send their kids to school. We have a wonderful conversation diving into their journey, how she discovered unschooling, what their days look like, how capable and emotionally intelligent their children are, and how […]
EU222: Living Joyfully Network and Q&A with Anna Brown
Apr 09, 2020
This week’s episode is a special one for me. For a few months now, I’ve been percolating lots of thoughts and possibilities around building an engaging and supportive online unschooling community. Finally, it’s HERE! And Anna Brown is an integral part of it all, taking on the role of Community Advocate. We are well into […]
EU221: Unschooling and Neurodiversity with Tara McGovern Dutcher
Apr 02, 2020
Tara McGovern Dutcher joins me to talk about neurodiversity, how we are all unique in our experience of the world, and how unschooling creates an amazing environment from which our individual gifts can shine. Watch the video on YouTube QUESTIONS FOR TARA Can you share with us a bit about you and your family? What […]
EU220: Pursuing Our Curiosity with Susan Bhadury
Mar 26, 2020
Susan Bhadury, an unschooling mom with two children, joins me this week. She shares some wonderful stories and insights as we dive into deschooling challenges, the joys of technology, helping our children follow their inner compass, how curiosity weaves its way through their lives, and lots more! Watch the video on YouTube QUESTIONS FOR SUSAN […]
EU219: Home with the Kids with Pam and Anna
Mar 19, 2020
For any parents who find themselves at home with the kids during these uncertain times, Anna Brown and I dive into the value of using this time to embrace and strengthen our relationships with our children, tips for navigating sibling conflicts, and some ideas to get your brainstorming juices flowing for fun things to do […]
EU218: Growing Up Unschooling with Jayn Coburn
Mar 12, 2020
Jayn Coburn joins me this week to talk about her experience growing up unschooling. Her mom, Robyn, joined me back in 2017 so it was great to connect with Jayn! She openly shares her unschooling experience and insights. We talk about video games, learning, food controls, and touch many of the big topics that come […]
EU217: Change the Way You See Things with Jason and Kim Kotecki
Mar 05, 2020
Jason and Kim Kotecki are back! We had a great time catching up and hearing about what’s going in their unschooling lives. I love Jason’s new book, ‘A Chance of Awesome: How Changing the Way You See Changes Everything’ and found so many parallels to our unschooling lives. The lens of unschooling changes how we […]
EU216: Deschooling with Nikki Zavitz
Feb 27, 2020
Nikki Zavitz joins me this week to talk about her deschooling journey. She talks about how her life as a teacher influenced her decision to unschool, and how it also created challenges in her deschooling journey. She shares stories from what she calls the “messy middle,” and the beautiful moments that come alive everyday, and […]
EU215: Unschooling Stories with Dola Dasgupta
Feb 20, 2020
Dola Dasgupta is a long-time unschooling mom with two older children and we have a fascinating conversation! She shares some wonderful stories as we dive into her journey to unschooling, deschooling challenges along the way, the value of free time, her experience unschooling in India, and lots more. Watch the video on YouTube QUESTIONS FOR […]
EU214: Unschooling Dads with Bob Mahan
Feb 13, 2020
Bob Mahan joins me to talk about his experience as an unschooling dad. An accountant for 24 years, he had all the bells and whistles of that career, but he didn’t enjoy it. In our conversation, he shares his journey from there to unschooling and living a life of freedom, fun, and connection. Nowadays, Bob, […]
EU213: Unschooling and Math with Marcella O’Brien
Feb 06, 2020
Marcella O’Brien joins me this week. Marcella is an unschooling mom of three boys. Her grown sons, Jack and Sean, joined me to share their experiences back in episode 181, so it was such a treat to hear Marcella’s journey. She was also a public school teacher and still tutors math which led to a […]
EU212: Ten Questions with Nisa & Jewel Deeves
Jan 30, 2020
Nisa Deeves and her daughter Jewel join me this week to answer ten questions about their unschooling lives. This was a lovely chat that felt like sharing a cup of tea with old friends. I love the rich tapestry of lives created by all of the unschoolers who so generously share their time with me. […]
EU211: Learning in the Real World
Jan 23, 2020
When we first decide our children aren’t going to go to school, it can be daunting to envision how they’re going to learn instead. The great thing is, we don’t need to re-create the ethos of school in our homes to help our children’s learning thrive in the real world. In this talk I gave […]
EU210: Unschooling Stories with Michelle Conaway
Jan 16, 2020
Michelle Conaway joins me this week. Michelle is an unschooling mother of three and grandmother to one! She also runs the Texas Unschoolers group, coordinates their annual conference, and was gracious enough to share her journey and some wonderful stories and insights from their unschooling lives. Watch the video on YouTube QUESTIONS FOR MICHELLE Can […]
EU209: The Lovely Chaos of Unschooling with Shan Burton
Jan 09, 2020
Shan Burton is a writer, an unschooling mom and a recent widow. She kindly joins me this week to talk about her unschooling life, how the idea of Lovely Chaos (her website name) came about and how embracing unschooling healed her relationships and helped her family through the loss of their beloved husband and father. […]
EU208: Don’t Aim for Perfect with Sue Patterson
Jan 02, 2020
Sue Patterson joins me to talk about how the idea of “perfect” can get in the way of living our best unschooling life. We touch on comparisons, tough times, the personal work involved, the gifts that these choices bring, and lots more! Watch the video on YouTube DISCUSSION POINTS Let’s start with the genuine excitement […]
EU207: Advice from Grown Unschoolers
Dec 26, 2019
It’s compilation episode time again! In many of my conversations with grown unschoolers, I ask what advice they’d like to share with newer unschooling parents who are starting out on this journey. In this episode, I’ve woven together answers from eleven episodes and twelve grown unschoolers. It’s so interesting to hear the things that they […]
RECAST: Unschooling the Holidays
Dec 19, 2019
Anna Brown joins Pam to talk about navigating the holiday season through the lens of unschooling. As we move into the holiday season, things can get challenging. Maybe you’re deep into deschooling and questioning everything—including holiday traditions—to see how well they really fit your family. Maybe you’re the lone unschooling family and anticipating uncomfortable visits […]
EU206: Deschooling with Kinsey Norris
Dec 12, 2019
Kinsey Norris is an unschooling mom with two kids and we had a wonderful chat about her journey! She has a background in Early Childhood Education and it was fascinating to see how many seeds were planted along the way that ultimately grew into the amazing unschooling life they are living as a family today. […]
EU205: Unschooling Dads with Lucas Land
Dec 05, 2019
Lucas Land is an unschooling dad with three kids, and we have a wonderful conversation about deschooling, living in another country, trusting our kids, and lots more! He also recently started a podcast, We Don’t Talk About That with Lucas Land. Watch the video on YouTube QUESTIONS FOR LUCAS Can you share with us a […]
EU204: Q&A with Anna and Pam
Nov 28, 2019
Anna Brown joins me this week to dive into listener questions. Question Summaries The first question is about deschooling and moving to unschooling. She has two boys and they have always homeschooled. They’ve been looking at moving to unschooling. She’s been reading and researching and she’s feeling a little bit overwhelmed. The main focus of […]
EU203: School’s out. Now what? Part 2
Nov 21, 2019
School’s out. Now what? Choosing to step off the conventional education path and leave school behind is often the culmination of a long, and sometimes emotional, process. But, in the bigger picture, it’s really just the first step on your new path. School’s Out is a curated collection of some of my published articles, in an […]
EU202: Unschooling and Connected Relationships with Liza Swale
Nov 14, 2019
Liza Swale joins me to talk about her unschooling journey and the value of connected relationships. She shares some amazing stories of trusting, being open, and following the flow. We also dive into what she’s learned about staying connected with her two children, who have very different needs and personalities, and how they prioritize connecting […]
EU201: Unschooling and Self Care with Erika Ellis
Nov 07, 2019
Erika Ellis joins me this week to talk about the very important topic of self care. Of course, we look at the topic through the lens of unschooling, dispelling some myths and letting go of some “shoulds” about how to take care of ourselves. Erika shares so many practical, easy to use tips to help […]
EU200: Unschooling in Context with Anna Brown
Oct 31, 2019
It’s the 200th episode!!! What a wonderful journey it’s been! This week Anna Brown joins me for another Unschooling In Context episode. We explore the idea of deschooling and how it fits in the larger context of unschooling. We talk about language, our values, ideas that we can let go and so much more. Anna […]
EU199: Unschooling Stories with Holly Johnson
Oct 24, 2019
Holly Johnson is an unschooling mom with two children, and her family is currently traveling the world together! How they got to that place is an amazing story. We dive into the choice to remove a child from school, helping an anxious child, hacking their lives to suit themselves, and how unconditional acceptance and love […]
EU198: School’s out. Now what? Part 1
Oct 17, 2019
School’s out. Now what? Choosing to step off the conventional education path and leave school behind is often the culmination of a long, and sometimes emotional, process. But, in the bigger picture, it’s really just the first step on your new path. Welcome! School’s Out is a curated collection of some of my published articles, […]
EU197: Choosing School, Part 2 with Alex Polikowsky
Oct 10, 2019
Alex Polikowsky joins me to share an update about how her family weaves school and unschooling together. Recently, a listener posted a comment on Alex’s first podcast appearance (almost three years ago) about how much she enjoyed the episode and that she’d love to hear an update. I thought it was a great idea and […]
EU196: Growing up Unschooling with Katie Patterson
Oct 03, 2019
Katie Patterson left school after kindergarten and grew up unschooling. She is an actress, a writer, and an all-around lover of horror. We have a wonderful conversation about her childhood, how her path has unfolded, what she loved about unschooling, and what she’s up to now. Watch the video on YouTube QUESTIONS FOR KATIE Can […]
EU195: Unschooling Stories with Renee Cabatic
Sep 26, 2019
Renee Cabatic, the mother of two unschooled teens, joins me this week to share some wonderful stories from their lives. We dive into passions and comfort zones, college and quitting, agency and self-efficacy, and lots more. Watch the video on YouTube QUESTIONS FOR RENEE Can you share with us a bit about you and your […]
EU194: Stretching Our Comfort Zones
Sep 19, 2019
Compilation episode time! This time, let’s explore the idea of stretching our comfort zones. This can come up in various ways along our unschooling journey. Often, we first encounter it when we’re actively deschooling and questioning so much of the conventional wisdom around learning and parenting that we’ve absorbed growing up. We can also find […]
EU193: Unschooling Younger Kids with Martha Delmore
Sep 12, 2019
Martha Delmore joins me this week to talk about unschooling with younger children. Unschooling wasn’t on her radar before she had kids—she’s a former high school teacher—but her desire to maintain and enhance her relationships with them led her down this unexpected path. We dive into attachment parenting, when family members question our choices, the […]
EU192: Unschooling to College with Amy Milstein
Sep 05, 2019
Amy Milstein’s two children have grown up unschooling. Last year, her eldest decided she wanted to go to college. We dive into how they handled the legalities of unschooling in New York, her daughter’s journey to college, and the lovely flow of their unschooling days along the way. I hope you enjoy the conversation as […]
EU191: Q&A with Anna and Pam
Aug 29, 2019
Anna Brown joins me this week to dive into listener questions! Watch the video on YouTube QUESTION SUMMARIES Mom hears many parents on the podcast talking about hanging out with their kids so much more now that they’re unschooling. But since she stopped limiting screen time back in January, her boys, 15, 13, and 10, […]
EU190: Unpacking Unschooling Memes with Sue Patterson
Aug 22, 2019
Sue Patterson joins me this week to dive into five popular unschooling memes. Memes can be quick, inspirational pick-me-ups, but we don’t need to stop there—we can use them as a springboard to learn more about both ourselves and unschooling. It’s so worth doing the work. Watch the video on YouTube THE FIVE POPULAR MEMES […]
EU189: Ten Questions with Amy Martinez
Aug 15, 2019
Amy Martinez joins me this week to talk about her family’s move to unschooling. Amy is a mother of five, who range in age from 15-29. They had time in public school, homeschooling, and ultimately moved to unschooling. Her insights on those transitions, on living in a big family, and on the connections and amazing […]
EU188: Our Unschooling Work with Jen Keefe
Aug 08, 2019
Jen Keefe joins me this week! Jen was on the podcast almost three years ago and I really enjoyed learning a bit about how their unschooling lives have grown and changed since then. We dive into what she found challenging as they moved to unschooling, how it’s been life-changing for her as well as the […]
EU187: Time and the Wild Landscape of Unschooling
Aug 01, 2019
I originally wrote this essay for Rosemary Magazine, for their winter issue, which had the theme, “wildschool.” I loved playing with that idea! There’s the outer wildness of living outside the structure of compulsory school. In the world, rather than in the classroom. Kids in the grocery store in the middle of the day. Running […]
EU186: Sparkle and Zest and Unschooling with Teresa Hess
Jul 25, 2019
Teresa Hess is an unschooling mom with three kids and the family—Teresa, her husband, and the kids—live in a cool co-housing community on an island in Washington state. Teresa and I had a wonderful conversation about their unschooling lives, diving into the shift to peaceful parenting, the ever-deepening spiral of mothering and self-awareness, the concept […]
EU185: Deschooling with Talia Bartoe
Jul 18, 2019
Talia Bartoe is an unschooling mom with four young children who have never been to school. We have a wonderful conversation about her deschooling journey—as someone who excelled in school, she had no idea this would be in her future. Her excitement and gratitude for finding this path and for the beautiful connections that have […]
EU184: Sprinkle in More Love with Shannon Loucks
Jul 11, 2019
Shannon Loucks joins me to talk about unschooling, parenting, and her new book, Love More: 50+ ways to build joy into childhood. Shannon’s an unschooling mom with two boys and she believes in the power of play and partnership as a way to bring more joy and love into our children’s lives. We dive into […]
EU183: Unschooling in Context with Anna Brown
Jul 04, 2019
Anna Brown joins me this week for another Unschooling in Context episode! This time we’re diving into unschooling in the context of life. And what I mean by that is, we’re exploring how unschooling eventually weaves so tightly into our lives. Which is beautiful! Unschooling IS living our lives. Yet, as challenges arise, it can […]
EU182: Unschooling and Video Games
Jun 27, 2019
It’s time for another compilation episode! This time, let’s dive into video games. Video games are a common topic of conversation in unschooling circles because, when it comes to questioning conventional advice, this topic is a hot bed of widely varying perspectives. For me, when I find myself in that conundrum, I look to my […]
EU181: Growing Up Unschooling with Jack & Sean O’Brien
Jun 20, 2019
Jack and Sean O’Brien both grew up unschooling. Sean chose to continue unschooling during his teen years and Jack chose to go to high school. Now they’re both in college and we have a wonderful conversation about the ways that unschooling has woven its way through their current college experiences. Watch the video on YouTube […]
EU180: Growing Up Unschooling with Nick Bergson-Shilcock
Jun 13, 2019
Nick Bergson-Shilcock joins me this week! In a nutshell, Nick grew up unschooling and now runs the Recurse Center in New York. It’s a wonderful space for both new and experience programmers to take a sabbatical and vastly improve their programming skills. It was fascinating to hear the story of how the Recurse Center came […]
EU179: Unschooling Stories with Joan Concilio
Jun 06, 2019
Joan Concilio joins me to share some of her family’s wonderful unschooling stories. We dive into her journey to unschooling, the learning that happened along the way, the profound changes it brought to their lives and the deep connections that it forged. She also talks about what it’s like to live in a highly regulated […]
EU178: Q&A with Anna and Pam
May 30, 2019
Anna Brown joins me this week to answer listener questions. We talk about finding ways to live together when we have different styles and needs, considering diplomas and next steps, allowances and family money, and how learning looks different in unschooling families. Watch the video on YouTube Question 1 [00:00:20] How do I make a […]
EU177: Growing Up Unschooling with Alyssa Patterson
May 23, 2019
Alyssa Patterson joins me this week to chat about growing up unschooling! Alyssa and I dive into her interests growing up, her choice to go to high school for a year and a half, how she came to open her own business a few months ago, what she appreciates most about growing up unschooling, and […]
EU176: Coming Home with Tara Soto-Regester
May 16, 2019
Tara Soto-Regester, an unschooling mom with two children, joins me for a wonderful conversation about her family’s journey from school to unschooling. We dive into how she discovered unschooling, her son’s transition from school to coming home, what’s surprised her along the way, her new podcast, and lots more! Watch the video on YouTube QUESTIONS […]
EU175: Deschooling with Leah Rose
May 09, 2019
Leah Rose joins me this week to share her unschooling experience. Turns out, our conversation had such a lovely, organic flow that we soon left the questions behind! In our conversation, we wove our way through these ideas: Watch the video on YouTube THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODE We invite you to join us […]
EU174: Unschooling Teens at Camp with Laura Bowman
May 02, 2019
Laura Bowman is the founder of the East Tennessee Unschooled Summer Camp for teens and previous guests have said wonderful things about their camp experience. We dive into Laura’s unschooling journey, how the camp came to life in 2010, what a day at camp looks like, the idea behind the Mentor Groups, reluctant campers, and […]
EU173: Unschooling in Context with Anna Brown
Apr 25, 2019
Anna Brown joins me this week for a conversation with a twist: we’re not talking about the ins and outs of unschooling itself but about how it fits in the bigger picture. Hence the title of the episode, Unschooling in Context. It’s a topic I’ve been wanting to do for a while, but I really […]
EU172: Unschooling Travels with Heather Clark
Apr 18, 2019
Heather Clark joins me this week! I first met Heather a few years ago at an unschooling conference and I love the way she and her family have slowly but surely woven an interest in travel into their lives. We dive into her journey to unschooling, the story behind embracing travel, the value of embracing […]
EU171: The Magic of Learning to Read Naturally
Apr 11, 2019
It’s time for another compilation episode! This time I went with a topic rather than a particular question: the topic of learning to read naturally. Listen to ten different guests share their experiences around unschooling and learning to read. Hearing their stories in this new context—side by side—may well spark helpful new connections and insights […]
EU170: Unschooling in Action with Kelli & Rhanna Lincoln
Apr 04, 2019
Kelli and Rhanna Lincoln, unschooling mom and daughter, join me this week on the podcast. I had so much fun chatting with them and hearing about their unschooling lives—from both their perspectives. We talk about their journey to unschooling, living and learning with four kids (or three siblings!), their family’s RV travels, their latest business […]
EU169: Deschooling with Alicia Gonzales-Lopez
Mar 28, 2019
Alicia Gonzales-Lopez joins me this week to talk about her deschooling journey. We dive into how she discovered unschooling, the emotional healing that’s happened for her, what she’s found challenging along the way, connecting with our kids, what has surprised her most, and lots more. Watch the video on YouTube QUESTIONS FOR ALICIA Can you […]
EU168: Embracing Unschooling with Joan Karp
Mar 21, 2019
Joan Karp, unschooling mom with three kids, joins me this week! We talk about her fascinating journey to unschooling, what she found challenging about deschooling, we dive deep into the teen years, what she most appreciates about having embraced unschooling, how her passion for sports weaves into their days, the new business they’ve recently started […]
EU167: Unschooling Dads with Ben Lovejoy
Mar 14, 2019
Ben Lovejoy, a long-time unschooling dad, joins me this week. I met Ben and his family at the first unschooling conference we ever attended. His boys are grown now and we have a lovely chat reflecting on his family’s journey, including the influence of his military background, the idea of rules versus principles, the value […]
EU166: Unschooling and the Teen Years with Sue Patterson: Part 2
Mar 07, 2019
This week is Part 2 of my wonderful conversation with Sue Patterson about unschooling and the teen years. In this episode we talk about the later teen years, transitioning into adulthood, is there preparation needed, should we be defining success for someone else, connection and how relationships evolve and change. So many wonderful moments talking […]
EU165: Unschooling and the Teen Years with Sue Patterson: Part 1
Feb 28, 2019
Sue Patterson returns to talk about unschooling and the teen years. We are both rather passionate about the topic and our conversation ended up lasting almost two hours! I decided to split it into two, and it actually worked out quite well, with Part 1 covering the transition into the teen years, and Part 2 […]
EU164: Q&A with Anna and Pam
Feb 21, 2019
This week Anna Brown joins me to answer some questions from listeners. We talk about finding friends, letting go of worry and fear of the future, the teen years, and more. I think you’ll find some helpful nuggets no matter where you are on your unschooling journey. Watch the video on YouTube Question 1 We […]
EU163: Growing Up Unschooling with Adrian Peace-Williams
Feb 14, 2019
Adrian Peace-Williams joins me this week! A companion conversation to last week’s episode with her mom, Adrian and I have a wonderful conversation, diving into her childhood unschooling, her choice to go to high school, her years of traveling the world after high school, where she is now in her journey, and lots more. Her […]
EU162: Ten Questions with Alex Peace
Feb 07, 2019
Alex Peace has been one of my unschooling inspirations for many years! She has three adult children and I’m so excited that she agreed to come on the podcast to talk about her family’s unschooling experiences. We dive into what she found to be the most challenging aspect of deschooling, building trust, stretching comfort zones, […]
EU161: What is Unschooling?
Jan 31, 2019
This week, please enjoy the audiobook edition of my intro book, What is Unschooling? Written and read by me, Pam Laricchia. Here’s the description: Life in the real world is much bigger and more exciting than a school can contain within its four walls. If you’re ready to embrace life and eager to share its […]
EU160: Ten Questions with Kirsten Fredericks
Jan 24, 2019
Kirsten Fredericks and her husband Carl have three boys—now young adults—who pretty much grew up unschooling. We have a wonderful conversation as we touch on how she found unschooling, the most challenging aspect of deschooling, supporting our children’s passions, moving from control to trust, what has surprised her most about how their unschooling lives have […]
EU159: Growing Up Unschooling with Max VerNooy
Jan 17, 2019
Max VerNooy grew up unschooling. I’ve known Max’s family for many years, online and through unschooling gatherings, and I’m so happy he agreed to chat with me about his experience growing up unschooling. We talk about the ebb and flow of his interests through the years, his time mentoring at an unschooling summer camp, and […]
EU158: Unschooling Book Clubs with Tracy and Erika
Jan 10, 2019
Tracy Talavera and Erika Ellis are unschooling moms who also host an unschooling book club! We dive into the flow of a typical meeting, going about choosing books, figuring out membership, what they’ve personally gotten out of being part of the book club, and lots more. Watch the video on YouTube QUESTIONS FOR TRACY AND ERIKA […]
EU157: Unschooling Intentions with Sue Patterson
Jan 03, 2019
Sue Patterson, a long-time unschooling mom with three now-adult children, joins me to talk about unschooling intentions. I love the energy of a new year, but I’m not so keen on making resolutions. For lasting change, I need something meatier. I’ve found that when I think about the kinds of changes I’d like to see in […]
EU156: Surprises on the Unschooling Journey
Dec 27, 2018
It’s time for another compilation episode! Let’s dive into how twelve unschooling parents answer the question, “What has surprised you most so far about how unschooling has unfolded in your lives?” I hope you enjoy hearing what these unschooling parents had to share! AUDIO SNIPPETS TAKEN FROM THESE EPISODES … EU036: Deschooling with Lauren Seaver […]
EU155: Let ‘Em Go Barefoot with Missy Willis
Dec 20, 2018
Missy Willis is an unschooling mom of two children and host of the website, Let ‘Em Go Barefoot, where she shares her personal experiences, thoughts, and research around unschooling. We dive into her journey from getting her master’s in Special Ed to unschooling, what she means by the phrase “ego-schooling,” how jumping in to help our children […]
EU154: Unschooling Dads and Documentaries with Jeremy Stuart
Dec 13, 2018
Jeremy Stuart joins Pam for an engaging conversation about unschooling, documentaries, and life. Jeremy is an unschooling dad and video editor who also directed and co-produced the documentary film, Class Dismissed, which was released in 2015. Since then, it has been screened in more than 60 countries and translated into five languages. He’s now in the […]
EU153: Unschooling the Holidays with Pam and Anna
Dec 06, 2018
Anna Brown joins Pam to talk about navigating the holiday season through the lens of unschooling. As we move into the holiday season, things can get challenging. Maybe you’re deep into deschooling and questioning everything—including holiday traditions—to see how well they really fit your family. Maybe you’re the lone unschooling family and anticipating uncomfortable visits […]
EU152: Ten Questions with Vicky Bennison
Nov 29, 2018
Vicky Bennison and her husband always unschooled their two children—now young adults. I met Vicky years ago and we’ve stayed connected online ever since. We have a wonderful conversation diving into her unschooling journey, including what she found to be most challenging, the importance of being curious ourselves, what has surprised her most along the […]
EU151: Escape Adulthood with Kim and Jason Kotecki
Nov 22, 2018
Kim and Jason Kotecki are unschooling their three children, and they are also the brains and the fun behind escapeadulthood.com! We have a fantastic conversation, diving into their journey to unschooling, how they got into the work of fighting adultitis, how encouraging people to see their days through a more child-like lens is remarkably similar […]
EU150: Stories of an Unschooling Family with Sue Elvis
Nov 15, 2018
Sue Elvis and her husband Andy have eight children, seven living, ranging in age from 14 to 31. Sue hosts the podcast, Stories of an Unschooling Family, as well as a website and blog. We have a lovely conversation, diving into her family’s move to unschooling, the difference between unschooling and unparenting, how unschooling has grown […]
EU149: Deschooling with Tatiana Plechenko
Nov 08, 2018
Tatiana Plechenko is an unschooling mom with two children. I met Tatiana online pretty early in her unschooling journey and then had the pleasure of connecting with her in person a few times at unschooling events. We have a really fun conversation, diving into her deschooling experience, including her most challenging area, how her relationships with […]
EU148: The Value of Relationships for Learning
Nov 01, 2018
When I began unschooling my three children in 2002, it wasn’t long before I came across the idea that strong relationships with my children were essential for unschooling—and learning in general—to thrive. At first, I thought, sure, that’s a worthwhile goal, but what exactly does that have to do with their learning? That became clear […]
EU147: Unschooling as Flow with Robyn Robertson
Oct 25, 2018
Robyn Robertson is an unschooling mom with two children and host of the podcast, Honey, I’m Homeschooling the Kids. We have wonderful conversation, diving into her family’s early travels, their move to unschooling, figuring out what unschooling looks like for them, her favourite thing about the flow of their unschooling days, and lots more! Watch […]
EU146: Common First Questions About Unschooling with Sue Patterson
Oct 18, 2018
Sue Patterson, a long-time unschooling mom with three now-adult children, continues to encourage and support unschooling parents through her website and Facebook group, UnschoolingMom2Mom. In this episode, we have a great time tackling some of the common questions people ask when they are first exploring unschooling. Watch the video on YouTube QUESTIONS FOR SUE Can […]
EU145: Healing and Unschooling with Caren Knox
Oct 11, 2018
Caren Knox is a long-time unschooling mom who found that, while she has been in and out of therapy over the years, nothing has been more impactful and life-changing for her than becoming a good unschooling mom. We dive into her family’s move to unschooling, when her healing journey began, her healing process and what […]
EU144: The Decision to Leave School Behind with Jen Lumanlan
Oct 04, 2018
As Jen Lumanlan puts it, “I don’t have much in the way of parenting instinct but I make up for it with outstanding research skills.” Her deep dive into parenting research led first to a Master’s in Psychology with a focus on Child Development, then to another Master’s in Education, and then ultimately to choosing unschooling as […]
EU143: Follow the Joy with Natasha Allan-Zaky
Sep 27, 2018
Natasha Allan-Zaky joins me this week for a wonderful unschooling conversation! We talk about her family’s move to unschooling, the challenge of embracing fun, learning piano, her biggest a-ha moment so far on the journey, and lots more. Watch the video on YouTube QUESTIONS FOR NATASHA Can you share with us a bit about you […]
EU142: Second Generation Unschooling with Amanda Sharma
Sep 20, 2018
Amanda Sharma joins me this week to share her fascinating perspective as a grown unschooler who is now unschooling her own children. We dive into her experience growing up unschooling, the process of choosing unschooling for her children and family, what she’s found challenging on the journey, her favourite thing about unschooling right now, and […]
EU141: Growing Up Unschooling with Alec Traaseth
Sep 13, 2018
I first met Alec Traaseth and his family when he was maybe twelve or thirteen, at an unschooling conference. I’ve enjoyed little glimpses of his life over the years through social media and I was so happy when he agreed to come on the podcast to chat about his experience growing up unschooling. We talk […]
EU140: Freeschoolin’ with Wendy Hart
Sep 06, 2018
Wendy Hart and her husband are unschooling their eight-year-old daughter. They live in Ontario, Canada where Wendy runs a local un/homeschool group that hosts fun activities, like yesterday’s Not Back to School Beach Meet-Up! We dive into how she discovered unschooling, how she’s helping her daughter pursue her interests, her biggest stumbling block on the […]
EU139: Questions from the Inbox
Aug 30, 2018
This week on the podcast, I’ve put together a new kind of Q&A. It dawned on me recently that I’ve written many thousands of words in email replies to unschooling-related questions over the last few years. And I suspect that, for every person who actually emailed me, there are many others with a similar question in mind. […]
EU138: The Sparkle of Unschooling
Aug 23, 2018
This week on the podcast, I’ve put together a compilation of sixteen experienced unschooling parents answering the question, “Looking back, what has been the most valuable outcome from choosing unschooling?” I titled this episode The Sparkle of Unschooling because the guests are talking about THE ONE THING. It’s the thing we eventually discover that we celebrate […]
EU137: The Untamed with Courtney Barker
Aug 16, 2018
Courtney Barker and her husband Dave are unschooling their three children. Originally from Australia, they moved to Northern Zambia when their first child was 12 weeks old. Four years later they moved to Chile, and four years after that they moved to Canada. We have a wonderful conversation about their journey from school to unschooling, […]
EU136: Our Unschooling Journey with Jessica Hughes
Aug 09, 2018
Jessica Hughes and her husband, Micah, have three children, ages 11 to 18. When their kids were younger, they were homeschooling with a curriculum but they eventually found their way to unschooling. We talk about that journey, what you can do when you feel caught up in everyday “struggles,” supporting your husband’s journey, shifting away from […]
EU135: Ten Questions with Anna Brown
Aug 02, 2018
Anna Brown is back! We have so much fun diving into her family’s move to unschooling, how she developed trust in the process, what she found to be the most challenging aspect, tips for moving from conventional parenting to consensual living, stretching our comfort zones, and lots more. Watch the video on YouTube TEN QUESTIONS […]
EU134: How Unschooling Grows with Virginia Warren
Jul 26, 2018
Virginia Warren’s two daughters have never been to school. We have great fun diving into their journey to unschooling, her biggest stumbling block along the way, her perspective as a gamer mom, what’s surprised her most so far, what her favourite thing about unschooling is right now, and lots more! Watch the video on YouTube […]
EU133: The Twists and Turns of Unschooling with Bea Mantovani
Jul 19, 2018
Béa Mantovani is an unschooling mom with two children. I’ve known Béa online in unschooling circles for quite a few years—she’s even translated some of my blog posts into French. We have a really interesting conversation as we dive into the twists and turns of their unschooling lives, including how she found unschooling, her biggest […]
EU132: Deschooling Two Cultures with Iris Chen
Jul 12, 2018
Iris Chen is a Chinese-American unschooling mom who was born in the US, grew up in the US and Canada, and now lives with her husband and two boys in China. She’s been unschooling for about a year and began sharing her experiences on her blog at untigering.com. I’ve really enjoyed reading her posts, and […]
EU131: Deschooling with Maria Randolph
Jul 05, 2018
Maria Randolph’s unschooled daughter is now twenty, which gives her a great perspective to look back on her own deschooling, It was a fascinating journey! We talk about what she found to be one of the most challenging areas to deschool, regret and how it can get in the way, her journey through the question, […]
EU130: Dismantling Shame with Ronnie Maier
Jun 28, 2018
Ronnie Maier has two daughters now in their twenties, who unschooled after leaving school in the early grades—plus a niece who has stayed with them part-time over the years. In a fun twist, Ronnie was the working parent while her husband Frank was the at-home unschooling parent. Ronnie has shared her family’s unschooling experience for […]
EU129: Starting Unschooling as a Teen with Noah Tetzner
Jun 21, 2018
Noah Tetzner is seventeen, left school last fall, and it was not long before he was passionately unschooling. We talk about his transition from school to unschooling, what excites him about unschooling, the podcast he’s now had time to start, his advice for new unschooling parents and lots more. Questions for Noah Can you share […]
EU128: Reluctant Spouse to Unschooling Advocate with Zach & Heather Lake
Jun 14, 2018
Zach and Heather Lake join me this week to talk about Zach’s journey from reluctant spouse to unschooling advocate. Heather has been on the podcast before taking about her deschooling journey, and after the episode she mentioned that her husband has had quite the journey as well. It occurred to me that it would be interesting to […]
EU127: The Magic of Unschooling with Ann Rousseau
Jun 07, 2018
Ann Rousseau and her partner Tim have been unschooling their three boys for about six years. Ann and I have a fascinating conversation, digging into how her family came to unschooling, moving through fear and discomfort, the many ways curiosity drives their days, her documentary about her experience of alopecia, and lots more. Questions for […]
EU126: Q&A Round Table
May 31, 2018
This month, Anna Brown and I treat you to an extra long Q&A episode as we finish up the remaining questions! We dive into questions around the challenge of deschooling while holding tight to your fears, engaging with the unschooling community before having kids of your own, the decision to unschool, the transformational impact of shifting […]
EU125: Challenges on the Unschooling Journey
May 24, 2018
This week on the podcast, we have the first compilation episode! I gathered clips from fourteen different episodes where I asked some version of this question: “What has been one of the more challenging aspects for you on your unschooling journey?” I think it’s fascinating to hear them side by side, but I’d love to know […]
EU124: Unschooling the Early Years with Jen Kobrick
May 17, 2018
Jen Kobrick connected with me recently and suggested an episode about the idea of unschooling in the early years—before kids reach school age. Her son is almost three and she so beautifully explained why she thought it was a valuable topic that I asked if she’d be interested in talking about it with me. I […]
EU123: Unschooling and Food Round Table
May 10, 2018
This week on the podcast I’m trying something new: a round table discussion on a single topic. Questions around food are very common as people are deschooling and contemplating releasing control over their children’s food choices and Sylvia Woodman, Jo Isaac, and Meredith Novak join me to talk all things food. I hope you find […]
EU122: Unschooling Passions with Robin Bentley
May 03, 2018
Robin Bentley is an unschooling mom who loves dancing hula, playing the yukelele, and supporting her daughter’s exploration of her interests and passions. We have a wonderful conversation about unschooling passions, including how supporting our child’s interests often ends up being a positive experience for us as well, healing our own childhood, tips and ideas […]
EU121: Q&A Round Table
Apr 26, 2018
Anna Brown joins Pam to answer listener questions. This month we dive into questions around managing the environment when a parent works at home, when we’re not a “perfect mom,” helping our kids learn about diversity, when you’re not into your child’s passion, and helping your children process their emotions without taking them on yourself. […]
EU120: Unschooling and Autism with Erin Human
Apr 19, 2018
Erin Human is an unschooling mom of two and she joins me this week to talk about her experiences with unschooling and autism. Erin has an autistic son, and was diagnosed with autism herself as an adult. She’s also a wonderful artist and is the art director for Autism Women’s Network, as well as co-founding director […]
EU119: Gaming and Growing Up Unschooling with Xander MacSwan
Apr 12, 2018
Xander MacSwan left school in the 5th grade when his parents—both professors in the University of Maryland’s College of Education—decided the best thing they could do was pull their kids out of school and start unschooling. We dive deep into Xander’s passion for video games, including the difference between gaming as part of deschooling and […]
EU118: Everything’s Connected with Nikole Verde
Apr 05, 2018
Nikole Verde and I have a great conversation about how, with unschooling, everything’s connected. Nikole is the home ed columnist at JUNO Magazine and she’s been doing a fun series where she looks at how different topics—or subjects, from a more school-ish mindset—can weave into our unschooling lives. Eventually, we notice that all of those […]
EU117: Q&A Round Table
Mar 29, 2018
Anne Ohman joins Pam to answer listener questions (Anna wasn’t able to join us). This month we dive into questions around meeting the needs of multiple children with diverse personalities and needs, shifting and reconnecting with the children after challenging times, shifting away from control as a parenting tool, and what to do about children […]
EU116: Growing Up Unschooling with Summer Jean
Mar 22, 2018
Summer Jean and I have a wonderful conversation about her experience growing up unschooling. We chat about how her mom came to unschooling, dealing with disapproval from extended family members, how her passion for glass art has unfolded, some of the common questions she gets when people learn she didn’t go to school and lots […]
EU115: The Unschooling Journey with Hema Bharadwaj, Part 2
Mar 15, 2018
Hema Bharawaj is an unschooling mom with two children and an amazing artist. Hema and I talk about her illustrations for my new book, The Unschooling Journey: A Field Guide. She talks about the inspiration behind the images and shares wonderful stories about her own unschooling journey. Our conversation spanned almost two hours so I decided to […]
EU114: The Unschooling Journey with Hema Bharadwaj, Part 1
Mar 08, 2018
Hema Bharawaj is an unschooling mom with two children and an amazing artist. Hema and I talk about her illustrations for my new book, The Unschooling Journey: A Field Guide. She talks about the inspiration behind the images and shares wonderful stories about her own unschooling journey. Our conversation spanned almost two hours so I decided […]
EU113: Deschooling with Megan Valnes
Mar 01, 2018
Megan Valnes is an unschooling mom with five children and we have so much fun diving deep into her deschooling experience. We talk about finding helpful unschooling information and groups online, the parenting paradigm shifts we make as we embrace unschooling, her experience managing the diverse needs of five children, her husband’s experience as they […]
EU112: Q&A Round Table
Feb 22, 2018
Anne Ohman and Anna Brown join Pam to answer listener questions. This month we dig into questions around helping a child who feels powerless and defeated, how to support a child who left school six months ago, personal hygiene choices, and the challenge of different personalities and meeting their needs. Click here to submit your own […]
EU111: Ten Questions with Jan Fortune
Feb 15, 2018
Jan Fortune home educated her four now adult children in the UK and wrote many articles and five books on unschooling and parenting. Her last book on the topic, Winning Parent, Winning Child, focuses on living with children in ways that respect their autonomy. Jan is also a novelist, poet, editor, and runs Cinnamon Press, now […]
EU110: Unschooling Dads & Music with Alan Marshall
Feb 08, 2018
Alan Marshall is an unschooling dad, a professional musician, and a university professor in the music department. We dive into his family’s journey to unschooling, his eldest’s transition to junior high, ways to approach music lessons, advice for dads just starting out with unschooling, and lots more. Quote of the Week “Actually, I would discourage, […]
EU109: Unschooling Stories with Sylvia Woodman
Feb 01, 2018
Sylvia Woodman joins me on the podcast this week, sharing some of her wonderful unschooling stories. Her children, ages thirteen and eleven, have never been to school. We chat about how she discovered unschooling, ways to create an environment in which natural learning thrives, how unschooling has been healing and liberating, technology, and lots more. […]
EU108: Q&A Round Table
Jan 25, 2018
Anne Ohman and Anna Brown join Pam to answer listener questions. This month we dig into questions around the challenge of meeting the needs of everyone in the family, the conventional idea that you shouldn’t do things for your children that they can do for themselves, the interplay of releasing control over food and the […]
EU107: Alternative Schools to Unschooling with Jessica
Jan 18, 2018
My guest this week is Jessica, an unschooling mom living in Germany. Unschooling is illegal in Germany, so we’ve kept everything on a first-name basis to protect her anonymity. Jessica decided even before her son was born that her child wouldn’t attend conventional schools, but she had no idea that the alternative schools that sounded […]
EU106: Unschooling Connections with Kelly Callahan
Jan 11, 2018
My guest this week is Kelly Callahan, unschooling mom of two. Kelly is now four years into her unschooling journey, and I was excited to explore how unschooling has been weaving ever more deeply into their lives. We chat about how they began unschooling, her deschooling challenges, the connections she’s seen between unschooling and her work as a homeopathic […]
EU105: Unschooling Dads with Nick Hess
Jan 04, 2018
My guest this week is Nick Hess, also known online as The Unschool Dad. He and his wife unschool their five children. We chat about about his family’s move to unschooling, what it was about unschooling that resonated with him, what he’s found challenging, and surprising, about unschooling as it has unfolded in their lives, […]
EU104: Q&A Round Table
Dec 28, 2017
Anne Ohman and Anna Brown join Pam to answer listener questions. This month we dig into questions around when parents are at odds over parenting choices, ways to share information with more conventional parents, teens making connections and considering school, and ways to handle when a child calls themself “stupid.” Click here to submit your own […]
EU103: The Gift of Time with Milva McDonald
Dec 21, 2017
Milva McDonald unschooled her four now-adult children starting back in 1991 and this year she published a book of essays about their experience, Slow Homeschooling. We have a great conversation, diving into her family’s unschooling journey, how music has woven its way through their lives, unschooling’s gift of time, college, and lots more! Quote of […]
EU102: The Value of Relationships with Rachel Rainbolt
Dec 14, 2017
Rachel Rainbolt is an unschooling mom of three and author of the book, Sage Homeschooling. We have such a fun conversation, diving into her family’s move to unschooling, how connection and relationships are at the core of learning, technology, micro-adventures, and lots more! Quote of the Week “If you are filling in all that space […]
EU101: Deschooling with Heather Lake
Dec 07, 2017
Heather Lake and her family began unschooling in January of this year, 2017, and she has been blogging about the experience. I really enjoyed chatting with her about how the journey has been unfolding so far. We talk about what prompted their move to unschooling, how her relationships with her children have changed since they […]
EU100: Q&A Round Table
Nov 30, 2017
I take a few minutes to reflect on 100 episodes and my unschooling work, then Anne Ohman and Anna Brown join me to answer listener questions. This month we answer questions about when to share our perspectives on stereotypes etc, supporting a young adult while moving to unschooling, anxiety around technology, and helping a partner […]
EU099: Book Chat with Emma Marie Forde
Nov 23, 2017
Emma Marie Forde is unschooling mom to two girls, Lily and Rosa. She’s also the founder of the website, rethinkingparenting.co.uk. Before having children, Emma was a clinical psychologist, a career that informed her choice to stay home with her own children and to choose unschooling. In this episode, Emma and I have a great chat about the […]
EU098: My Five Most Popular Blog Posts
Nov 16, 2017
I haven’t had an episode focused on my own reflections about unschooling in a while, so I thought I’d do that this week. I decided to share five of my blog posts that have really resonated with readers over the years. Here are descriptions and links to the blog posts: Who Am I and What […]
EU097: Unschooling and Diversity with Erika Davis-Pitre
Nov 09, 2017
Erika Davis-Pitre joins me to talk about unschooling and diversity. She and her husband, Michael, have four now-adult children and they enjoyed unschooling for many years. Erika continues to speak at unschooling conferences all over the US, her favourite topics being unschooling teens, the joy of unschooling, and celebrating diversity through unschooling. We dive into the […]
EU096: Ordinary Unschooling with Anna Brown and Pat Robinson
Nov 02, 2017
Anna Brown and Pat Robinson join me to chat about ordinary unschooling. They have both always unschooled their children—Anna’s daughters are about to turn 18 and 20, and Pat’s son is 16 years old. We talk about the idea of “unschooling success stories,” the impact of the conventional “independence agenda” which starts very young in […]
EU095: Q&A Round Table
Oct 26, 2017
Anne Ohman and Anna Brown join me to answer listener questions. This month we answer questions about radical validation—and what’s so radical about it, sibling conflicts, unhappy temperaments, and how the three of us have worked through challenges to get to epiphanies and personal growth. Click here to submit your own question to the Q&A Round Table! Listener […]
EU094: A Muddy Life with Ellen Rowland
Oct 19, 2017
Ellen Rowland is an unschooling mom of two children, ages 12 and 13. Back in 2008, Ellen and her husband Richard decided to leave the US and move to Senegal, West Africa with their two children, ages 3 and 4 at the time. Eight years later, they moved to small island off the Turkish coast of […]
EU093: Unschooling Dads with Robert Gottlieb
Oct 12, 2017
Robert Gottlieb is an unschooling dad with two children, ages 11 and 19. He shares that they actually discovered unschooling a few times and, after a variety of school and school-at-home settings, he’s the one who eventually brought it into the family. We chat about that transition, going against societal expectations, stretching comfort zones, what […]
EU092: Crazy Family Adventure with Bryanna Royal
Oct 05, 2017
Bryanna Royal is an unschooling mom with four children. And as if choosing unschooling wasn’t crazy enough, she and her husband chose to sell their home and everything in it and hit the road in an RV to travel full-time. We have a wonderful chat diving into why they chose unschooling, why they chose to move […]
EU091: Q&A Round Table
Sep 28, 2017
Anne Ohman and Anna Brown join me to answer listener questions. This month we dive into the the bigger picture of buying toys, negotiating boundaries, highly sensitive children and therapy, and feeling stuck around food and health concerns. Click here to submit your own question to the Q&A Round Table! Quote of the Week “My priority is the connection, […]
EU090: Growing Up Unschooling with Phoebe Wahl
Sep 21, 2017
Phoebe Wahl is an artist whose beautiful work focuses on the themes of comfort, nostalgia, and intimacy. She left school entirely after first grade and dove into unschooling. Eventually she chose to go to college, graduating from Rhode Island School of Design in 2013 with a BFA in Illustration. We have a lot of fun talking […]
EU089: Ten Questions with Jan Hunt
Sep 14, 2017
Jan is the founder of The Natural Child Project, a website that houses a wonderful collection of unschooling and parenting articles. She also has two unschooling books out, The Natural Child and The Unschooling Unmanual, plus a children’s book, A Gift for Baby. Her unschooled son, Jason, is now in his thirties. Jan graciously agreed to answer […]
EU088: Deschooling – A Year Later, with Jennie Gomes
Sep 07, 2017
Jennie Gomes is an unschooling mom to three young children and we thought we’d do something interesting. Jennie was on the podcast just over a year ago, episode 25, and we chatted about her deschooling journey. She graciously agreed to come back on the show to answer the same questions, but now with another year […]
EU087: Q&A Round Table
Aug 31, 2017
Anne Ohman and Anna Brown join me to answer listener questions. We dive into the seeming transition from following their interests to earning a living, how passionate kids engage with the world, partnering with our children around chores, and helping a child learn something that’s challenging for us. Click here to submit your own question to the […]
EU086: Unschooling an Only Child with Deb Rossing and Pat Robinson
Aug 24, 2017
Deb Rossing and Pat Robinson are unschooling moms I’ve known online for many years and have also met in person at unschooling conferences. This episode came about because I’ve had a few listeners suggest the topic of unschooling an only child, but since I have three kids I don’t have much experience to share on […]
EU085: Deschooling with Lucy AitkenRead
Aug 17, 2017
Lucy AitkenRead is an unschooling mom of two that you may know her from her blog, Lulastic and the Hippyshake. Or her YouTube channel. We have a wonderful chat, diving deep into what her family’s move to unschooling has looked like, what’s been the hardest part of the journey so far, what’s been the most […]
EU084: Enjoy Parenting with Scott Noelle
Aug 10, 2017
Scott Noelle is an unschooling dad of two, an author, and a life coach dedicated to supporting parents who want to move away from control-based parenting methods. He’s the founder of the website, DailyGroove.com, where he shares his practical parenting insights. We have a wonderful conversation diving into his wonderful PATH parenting framework, the value of […]
EU083: Unschooling Around the World with Tami Stroud
Aug 03, 2017
Tami Stroud is an unschooling mom of six kids, ages four to thirteen. We have a great chat about her family’s move to unschooling, their journey to becoming a nomadic, sometimes expat, family, the threads that weave through the ideas of hard work, grit, entitlement, and rewards and punishment, and last, but not least, she […]
EU082: Q&A Round Table
Jul 27, 2017
Anne Ohman and Anna Brown join me to answer listener questions. Click here to submit your own question to the Q&A Round Table! Quote of the Week “It’s in following your child’s light and joy and questions and interests and curiosities and conversations where the learning happens.” ~ Anne Ohman Listener Questions Anonymous Question [TIME: 3:36] My son just […]
EU081: Book Chat with Emma Marie Forde
Jul 20, 2017
Emma Marie Forde is unschooling mom to two girls, Lily and Rosa. She’s also the founder of the website, rethinkingparenting.co.uk. Before having children, Emma was a clinical psychologist, a career that informed her choice to stay home with her own children and which eventually led her and her husband John to choose unschooling for their family. In […]
EU080: Growing Up Unschooling with Kelly Nicole
Jul 13, 2017
Kelly Nicole went to school until 6th grade, when both she and her sister left for greener pastures. Her family eventually settled into unschooling and she’s now 22 and has been a professional actress for nine years. She also teaches acting and improv to kids, as well as directing children’s theatre. We have a really […]
EU079: Unschooling Dads with Dan Cadzow
Jul 06, 2017
Dan Cadzow is an archaeologist who chose to leave his PhD program and become a stay-at-home unschooling dad of four kids. We have a great conversation that covers his path to unschooling, how he’s developed trust in the process, what the most challenging aspect has been so far, his advice for dads who are just starting […]
EU078: Q&A Round Table
Jun 29, 2017
Anna Brown joins me to answer listener questions. Click here to submit your own question to the Q&A Round Table! Quote of the Week “I think if we can just be aware that we don’t have to hold all of this weight ourself, that we can have conversations, that we can include our children, that that just helps […]
EU077: Girls Unschooled with Jo Watt
Jun 22, 2017
Jo Watt is an ex-teacher and now stay-at-home mom of two unschooling girls, ages four and six. She blogs at girlsunschooled.co.uk and about six months ago she, her husband Kriss, and the girls moved from the UK to the US Pacific Northwest. We have a wonderful conversation, digging into learning to read, when people want […]
EU076: Choosing Home with Kerry McDonald
Jun 15, 2017
Kerry McDonald lives and learns together with her husband and four never-been-schooled children in Massachusetts, US. She blogs on her website, wholefamilylearning.com, is a founding member of alternativestoschool.com, and is on the board of the Alliance for Self-Directed Education. We have fun digging into all sorts of things, including what it really means to learn naturally, the […]
EU075: Learning Reimagined with Zakiyya Ismail
Jun 08, 2017
Zakiyya Ismail is an unschooling mom of three kids, ages 10 to 19. Earlier this year, she hosted the first Learning Reimagined Family Conference in South Africa. She also shares her wonderful insights into the unschooling lifestyle on her website, growingminds.co.za. Our conversation spans from her journey to unschooling, through the idea of deschooling parents […]
EU074: Ten Questions with Robyn Coburn
Jun 01, 2017
Robyn Coburn is an unschooling mom and her 17 year-old daughter has never been to school. I’ve known Robyn for many years online and have always enjoyed her perspective. We dive into deschooling fears, sleeping patterns, tips for handling meltdowns, the differing needs of kids and teens, unschooling conferences, and much more. Quote of the Week […]
EU073: Q&A Round Table
May 25, 2017
Anne Ohman and Anna Brown join me to answer listener questions. Click here to submit your own question to the Q&A Round Table! Quote of the Week “The thing about thinking unschooling is about releasing parental controls, is this: I feel there is no release at all unless the parent believes they have the power to release control.” […]
EU072: Unschooled Master of Arts with Sophie Christophy
May 18, 2017
Sophie Christophy lives in the UK and is unschooling with her husband and two children. She is a self-directed scholar and she joins Pam to chat about her personal Unschooled Master of Arts project: to explore the theory that the key to transformative social change is found via shifting parent-child education/child dynamics to a human rights model. […]
EU071: Changes in Parents with Sandra Dodd
May 11, 2017
Sandra Dodd is a long-time unschooling mom of three—Kirby, Marty, and Holly—who are now all adults. She’s also the creator of the awesome unschooling resource, sandradodd.com, and I’m thrilled to have her back on the podcast. In this episode, we talk about the changes that we go through as parents as we live this unschooling lifestyle […]
EU070: Book Chat with Emma Marie Forde
May 04, 2017
Emma Marie Forde is unschooling mom to two girls, Lily and Rosa. She’s also the founder of the website, rethinkingparenting.co.uk. Before having children, Emma was a clinical psychologist, a career that informed her choice to stay home with her own children and which eventually led her and her husband John to choose unschooling for their family. […]
EU069: Q&A Round Table
Apr 27, 2017
Anna Brown and Anne Ohman join me to answer listener questions. Click here to submit your own question to the Q&A Round Table! Quote of the Week “Unschooling is about seeing, honoring, and living in the flow of a child’s life.” ~ Anne Ohman Listener Questions Shelsy’s Question (from Florida, USA) [TIME: 3:04] I’m new to unschooling (since […]
EU068: Unschooling and Technology with Teri DeMarco
Apr 20, 2017
Teri DeMarco is an unschooling mom of three: twin 10-year-old sons and an 8-year-old daughter. I met her in person last year and when I decided to do a technology-focused episode I knew she’d be a great person to chat with! Quote of the Week “If you have a lens of ‘What is the educational value? […]
EU067: Deschooling with Anna Black
Apr 13, 2017
Anna Black is a former Montessori student and teacher, now an unschooling mom to two lovely daughters in Australia. We have a wonderful conversation, digging into conventional wisdom like, “kids need to do things for themselves,” and “fewer toys is better.” We also have a great chat about how unschooling children develop their own moral compass. […]
EU066: Ten Questions with Pushpa Ramachandran
Apr 06, 2017
Pushpa is an unschooling mom of two in India. I have been reading her wonderful unschooling insights for a number of years and I love the glimpses into their unschooling lives that she shares. She’s also an experienced speech pathologist, working part-time from home. Quote of the Week “I can eloquently talk about it but […]
EU065: Q&A Round Table
Mar 30, 2017
Anna Brown joins me to answer listener questions. Click here to submit your own question to the Q&A Round Table! Quote of the Week “I like to peel back the layers, I don’t focus on addressing the behaviour, because it’s just a clue. Look at the clues for the underlying need. It’s typically things like needing food, too […]
EU064: Grandparents! with Sheila Baranoski
Mar 23, 2017
Sheila is an unschooling mom of three, grandmother to two, and author of Dear Grandma: Your Grandkids Are Unschoolers. Sheila and I really enjoyed speaking specifically to grandparents this week. We dive into some of the questions that they may understandably have when they find out their grandchildren aren’t going to school, like how they’ll […]
EU063: Gentle Parenting with Shannon Loucks
Mar 16, 2017
Shannon is an unschooling mom to two great kids, and they are a Canadian family transplanted in California for seven years now—an interesting adventure all on its own! She shares her perspective on unschooling and gentle parenting on her website, breakingdaylight.org, because “happy childhoods are built on peaceful parents.” Quote of the Week “Turning toward parenting […]
EU062: Being and Becoming film review with Anne Boie
Mar 09, 2017
Anne Boie is an unschooling mom of four who is actively engaged in supporting the unschooling community as a producer of Lainie Liberti’s For the Love of Learning web show, the US distribution coordinator for the film, Being and Becoming, and the producer of a new online show, Youth on Subjects of the World. Anne […]
EU061: Book Chat with Emma Marie Forde
Mar 02, 2017
Emma Marie Forde is unschooling mom to two girls, Lily and Rosa. She’s also the founder of the website, rethinkingparenting.co.uk. Before having children, Emma was a clinical psychologist, a career that informed her choice to stay home with her own children and which eventually led her and her husband John to choose unschooling for their family. […]
EU060: Q&A Round Table
Feb 23, 2017
Anne Ohman and Anna Brown, both veteran unschooling parents, join me to answer listener questions. Click here to submit your own question to the Q&A Round Table! Quote of the Week “When we really hear one another and work toward understanding each other’s needs, finding the solutions that are win-win, life is just easier and more joyful.” ~ […]
EU059: Unschooling Dads with Rocco Laricchia
Feb 16, 2017
Rocco Laricchia is an unschooling dad of three young adult children and is married to the show host, Pam! In this episode we talk about how he answered the typical kid questions at work, what he found challenging and what he enjoyed about unschooling, and what he appreciates most about unschooling our children. Quote of […]
EU058: Unschooling as a Single Parent with Melissa
Feb 09, 2017
Melissa is unschooling mom to a lively eight-year-old and, being a single parent, also works as a nanny to support them. In our conversation, she shares how they weave unschooling and her work as a nanny together, why she began an online community for single unschooling parents like her, and why her son chooses unschooling. Quote of […]
EU057: Ten Questions with Akilah S. Richards
Feb 02, 2017
Akilah S. Richards is an unschooling mom to two lovely daughters. She’s also an author, a podcast showrunner and host, and on the organizing team of the Alliance for Self-Directed Education. She answers my ten questions about her unschooling experience with candor and enthusiasm, and I hope you too enjoy our conversation! Quote of the […]
EU056: Q&A Round Table
Jan 26, 2017
Anne Ohman and Anna Brown, both veteran unschooling parents, join me to answer listener questions. Click here to submit your own question to the Q&A Round Table! Quote of the Week “Today I will connect with my child, expand his world, bring joy into his life and nurture and encourage what he loves to do.” ~ Anne Ohman […]
EU055: Living Unschooling with James and Taylor Davis
Jan 19, 2017
James and Taylor Davis both originally went to college to become teachers. Taylor did teach in an elementary school for a number of years, while James ended up playing poker professionally. Eventually, they settled in New Jersey and started down a pretty traditional path—until their first son was born. He has been their greatest teacher […]
EU054: From Teaching to Unschooling with Grace Koelma
Jan 12, 2017
Grace Koelma studied primary school teaching at university, but after a year of teaching in Australia she became disillusioned with the mainstream schooling system and left. She began working as a journalist, following her passion for writing, eventually finding a way to weave together her passions for education, unschooling, and writing and starting Mulberry Magazine […]
EU053: Book Chat with Emma Marie Forde
Jan 05, 2017
Emma Marie Forde is unschooling mom to two girls, Lily and Rosa. She’s also the founder of the website, rethinkingparenting.co.uk. Before having children, Emma was a clinical psychologist, a career that informed her choice to stay home with her own children and which eventually led her and her husband John to choose unschooling for their family. […]
EU052: Q&A Round Table
Dec 29, 2016
Anne Ohman and Anna Brown, both veteran unschooling parents, join me to answer listener questions. Click here to submit your own question to the Q&A Round Table! Quote of the Week “[There is] so much you can do to support and honor their game playing by showing an interest in all of it, even if you don’t like […]
EU051: Deschooling with Luminara King
Dec 22, 2016
Luminara King is a former Steiner-Waldorf teacher turned unschooling mom. She’s also the author of Unschooling – 7 Steps to Beginning the Journey and blogs at Living the Education Revolution. This week we have a great chat about her deschooling journey. Quote of the Week “I think that, as parents, we have to be very […]
EU050: Choosing Unschooling with Roberto and Emily Lujano
Dec 15, 2016
Roberto and Emily Lujano are unschooling their three children. Roberto approached me earlier this year about translating my book, Free to Learn, into Spanish. I really enjoyed working with him and wanted to learn more about his family’s unschooling experience. Quote of the Week “You are not trusting the process and you are not trusting […]
EU049: Unschooling and Travel with Stuart Norman
Dec 08, 2016
Stuart Norman, his wife Sue, and their daughter Annabel were unschooling in the UK when they first had the idea to travel. They let it evolve in its own way—as he describes it, we “just pointed ourselves in that direction of travel and nothing else came along that got in the way of that.” They […]
EU048: A Family of Individuals, Pam’s Conference Talk
Dec 01, 2016
I’m happy to share the last of my HSC Adventures in Homeschooling conference talks with you, A Family of Individuals. In this talk, I focus on family relationships. In our society family harmony is a prized goal, promising an easygoing peace. It can be elusive, but we see some experienced unschooling families in action and […]
EU047: Q&A Round Table
Nov 24, 2016
Anne Ohman and Anna Brown, both veteran unschooling parents, join me to answer listener questions. Click here to submit your own question to the Q&A Round Table! Quote of the Week “Unfortunately most people are convinced that when control fails it’s because they didn’t control enough.” ~ Joyce Fetteroll Listener Questions Aparajita’s Question Hi, I have an almost 3 […]
EU046: Growing Up Unschooling with Brenna McBroom
Nov 17, 2016
Brenna McBroom is a 27yo grown unschooler. We had a fun conversation and touch on her transition from school, to homeschooling, and eventually to unschooling; finding connections as a teen; how her passion for ceramic art developed; her experience at Not Back to School Camp as both a teen and as staff; her new blog, […]
EU045: Unschooling on a Budget with Glenna McAulay
Nov 10, 2016
Glenna McAulay is an unschooling mom of two daughters, and both she and her husband have a wonderful perspective on living the unschooling lifestyle within their means. We talk about the perspective shifts around money and choices that have helped us over the years, as well as share some ideas for low-cost unschooling. Quote of […]
EU044: Ten Questions with Jennifer Andersen
Nov 03, 2016
Jennifer Andersen is an unschooling mom of two and the founder of ourmuddyboots.com and it’s related Facebook page. I had so much fun chatting with her! We talk about how we keep learning, over and over, that learning happens everywhere; triggers that can sneak up on us; the difference between natural and contrived consequences; how […]
EU043: Q&A Round Table
Oct 27, 2016
Anne Ohman and Anna Brown, both veteran unschooling parents, join me to answer listener questions. Click here to submit your own question to the Q&A Round Table! Quote of the Week “As we focus on this Mind Movie—the story playing in our heads—we become attached to it and want it to be real, somehow. The problem is that […]
EU042: Curious and Engaged, Pam’s Conference Talk
Oct 20, 2016
I’m excited to share another one of my conference talks, Curious and Engaged, with you! It may have been through an unfortunate series of events that it happens to be this week, but after all the work I put into developing conference talks, I’m happy to have a way to share the audio version, as it […]
EU041: Unschooling Dads & Board Games with Jamie Maltman
Oct 13, 2016
Jamie Maltman is an unschooling dad and avid board gamer. And in this episode, he shares with us what he loves about both these passions. We talk about how he built trust in process of unschooling, ways to stay connected as the working parent, learning through board games, and some great suggestions for new board […]
EU040: Paradigm Shifts with Cindy Gaddis
Oct 06, 2016
Cindy Gaddis is an unschooling mom to seven kids—and one son-in law! She’s also the author of The Right Side of Normal, a book about understanding and honouring the natural learning path for right-brained children. In this episode, we talk about helicopter parenting and control, cultural expectations, society’s focus on being busy, family relationships, and what unschooling […]
EU039: Q&A Round Table
Sep 29, 2016
Anne Ohman and Anna Brown, both veteran unschooling parents, join me to answer listener questions. Click here to submit your own question to the Q&A Round Table! Quote of the Week “All I am saying … can be summed up in two words: Trust Children. Nothing could be more simple, or more difficult. Difficult because to trust children […]
EU038: Time to Think, Pam’s conference talk
Sep 22, 2016
This week I thought I’d try something different! I want to share one of my conference talks, Time to Think, with you. With a few months of Q&A episodes under our belt, one of the threads we’ve seen running through many of the questions is the fear that bubbles up when we project our current […]
EU037: Ten Questions with Carol Black
Sep 15, 2016
Carol Black unschooled her two daughters, now 22 and 26. Years ago she was in a teacher education program, but when she read John Holt’s How Children Fail the light bulb went off and she dropped out. Since then she has written some wonderfully insightful essays about unschooling, which you can read on her website, carolblack.org, […]
EU036: Deschooling with Lauren Seaver
Sep 08, 2016
Lauren Seaver is an unschooling mom to 9-year-old River. She first considered the possibility of homeschooling way back when she was in college to become a teacher. Life took some turns, but a year (and three months!) ago, the opportunity to try out unschooling arose and they haven’t looked back. I met Lauren at the Childhood Redefined […]
EU035: Redefining Success with Jo Isaac
Sep 01, 2016
Jo Isaac is a zoologist turned science writer and unschooling mom to Kai. She, ten-year-old Kai, and her husband Brett, live and learn in Melbourne, Australia. Her path of learning and unschooling has taken a number of interesting twists and turns and I really enjoyed hearing about some of them as we chat about ways we […]
EU034: Q&A Round Table
Aug 25, 2016
Anne Ohman and Anna Brown, both veteran unschooling parents, join me to answer listener questions. Click here to submit your own question to the Q&A Round Table! Quote of the Week “Worrying about the future takes us out of this moment.” ~ Anna Brown Listener Questions 1. I have been unschooling for a year and am loving it. Though […]
EU033: Meeting Everyone’s Needs with Gwen Montoya
Aug 18, 2016
Gwen Montoya is an unschooling, single mom to Jamie and Zoe. She is pretty adept at weaving her work as a digital marketing consultant. I enjoy reading snippets of their lives on Facebook, so I was excited when she agreed to chat with me about relationships and the creative ways we can find to meet everyone’s needs […]
EU032: Choosing School with Alex Polikowsky
Aug 11, 2016
Alex Polikowsky is an unschooling mom to Daniel and Gigi. Her family runs a dairy farm in Minnesota, which adds an interesting dimension to their days! I met Alex when I spoke at the Always Learning Live symposium she hosted in Minneapolis a couple of years ago, and really enjoyed the brief glimpse of life […]
EU031: Ten Questions with Emma Marie Forde
Aug 04, 2016
Emma Marie Forde is unschooling mom to two girls, Lily and Rosa. She’s also the founder of the website, rethinkingparenting.co.uk. Before having children, Emma was a clinical psychologist, a career that informed her choice to stay home with her own children and which eventually led her and her husband John to choose unschooling for their […]
EU030: Q&A Round Table
Jul 28, 2016
Anne Ohman and Anna Brown, both veteran unschooling parents, join me to answer listener questions. Click here to submit your own question for the Q&A Round Table episodes! Quote of the Week “Whenever we are faced with particularly challenging problems, and we’ve certainly had them, I’m SO grateful for unschooling because I feel like it gives us […]
EU029: What Learning Looks Like with Meredith Novak
Jul 21, 2016
Meredith is unschooling mom to Morgan and stepmom to Ray. Meredith has been active online in unschooling groups for years and I’ve enjoyed reading her writing for many of those. In this episode, we chat about what learning looks like with unschooling. It’s a big topic, and big episode. I hope you enjoy it! Quote […]
EU028: Unschooling Worries with Jen Armstrong
Jul 14, 2016
Jen is unschooling mom to Joseph, soon to be sixteen. She’s also recently returned to the world of work as a Child Life Specialist. I’ve know Jen for years, having first met her online, and then in person at various unschooling gatherings. I’ve always loved her perspective on the unschooling lifestyle and I had a […]
EU027: Ten Questions with Teresa Graham Brett
Jul 07, 2016
Teresa Graham Brett is an unschooling mom to two boys, Martel and Greyson. She’s also author of the book, Parenting for Social Change. Teresa’s background as a social justice educator brings a unique and interesting slant to her journey to unschooling. In this episode, she shares some great stories and the fascinating insights she has […]
EU026: Q&A Round Table
Jun 30, 2016
Anne Ohman and Anna Brown, both veteran unschooling parents, join me to answer listener questions. Click here to submit your own question for the Q&A Round Table episodes! Quote of the Week “Shift out of the fear by going to your child and connecting with her over what makes her light up right now in this moment.” […]
EU025: Deschooling with Jennie Gomes
Jun 23, 2016
Jennie is mom to three children, ages 6 and under, and they’ve been unschooling for a couple of years now—or more specifically, deschooling. Jennie and I have chatted on and off over that time, and she is actively working to shed the control and punishment she grew up with and not pass it on to […]
EU024: Growing Up Unschooling with Roya Dedeaux
Jun 16, 2016
Roya Dedeaux left school at age ten and her family began unschooling. Now an adult, she has a Master’s degree in Counseling and is a Marriage and Family Therapist Intern, as well as a lecturer at California State University. She’s also married with a wonderful child of her own, and a busy life of fun […]
EU023: Learning to Read in Their Own Time with Anne Ohman
Jun 09, 2016
Anne Ohman is a long-time unschooling mom and Library Director at a small, rural library in New York state. She has been writing about unschooling since 1998, and has a been student of her children since they were born. She is the founder of the Shine with Unschooling community, and co-host (with me!) of the […]
EU022: Ten Questions with Lainie Liberti
Jun 02, 2016
Lainie Liberti is mom to 16 year-old Miro. They backed into unschooling in 2009 through what was meant to be a one-year mother-and-son backpacking trip. Now in their seventh year of travelling, Lainie is co-producer and host of the weekly online show, For the Love of Learning: Voices of the Alternative Education Movement, and she […]
EU021: Q&A Round Table
May 26, 2016
Anne Ohman and Anna Brown, both veteran unschooling parents, join me to answer listener questions. Click here to submit your own question for the Q&A Round Table episodes! Quote of the Week “How could youth better learn to live than by at once trying the experiment of living?” ~ Henry David Thoreau Summary of Listener Questions […]
EU020: Unschooling as Alternative Education with Carlo Ricci
May 19, 2016
Dr. Carlo Ricci is a graduate studies professor in the Schulich School of Education at Nipissing University in Ontario Canada and dad to two daughters, ages 11 and 13, who have both unschooled and chosen to go to school over the years. His research focus and teaching includes unschooling, self-directed learning, reading, free schooling, and […]
EU019: Playing with Our Children with Jody Lilley
May 12, 2016
Jody Lilley is an unschooling mom to three children, ages five to eleven. I’ve known Jody for years through unschooling conferences, and I reached out to her to chat about play because the pictures she posts online of her children at play always make me smile so big. It’s not so much that they’re busy doing […]
EU018: Ten Questions with Jennifer McGrail
May 05, 2016
Jennifer McGrail is a long-time unschooling mom to four lovely children, blogger at The Path Less Taken, and host of the Free to Be unschooling conference. This week I had a wonderful conversation with her, touching on the topics of burnout and self-care, the disconnect between how adults treat other adults and how they treat children, […]
EU017: Q&A Round Table
Apr 28, 2016
Anna Brown joins me to answer listener questions! Thanks to everyone who has shared their questions, I’m sure many listeners have gotten so much out of it. Click to submit your own question for the Q&A Round Table episodes! Quote of the Week “Knowledge emerges only through invention and re-invention, through the restless, impatient, continuing, hopeful […]
EU016: Supporting Unschooling Teens with Jenny Cyphers
Apr 21, 2016
Jenny Cyphers is a long-time unschooling mom of two daughters, ages 14 and 22. After reading her answers to unschooling questions online for years, I was delighted to get a chance to chat with Jenny about the teen years. We talk about trust, rebellion, patience, comfort zones, honesty, communication, and just how much we love our […]
EU015: From School to Unschooling with Heather Newman
Apr 14, 2016
Heather Newman is a long-time unschooling mom. She and her husband have three children, and I really enjoyed speaking with her about our shared experience of bringing our children home after they’d started school, and from there, moving to unschooling. We talk about what their days looked like when the kids first came home, how […]
EU014: Ten Questions with Joyce Fetteroll
Apr 07, 2016
Joyce is a long-time unschooling mom, and creator of the wonderful unschooling website, joyfullyrejoycing.com. She has been answering unschooling questions online for many years, in fact, I can’t remember a time when I wasn’t looking forward to reading her responses! Quote of the Week “Radical unschooling is about understanding human needs and getting to know […]
EU013: Q&A Round Table
Mar 31, 2016
Anne Ohman and Anna Brown, both veteran unschooling parents, join me to answer listener questions. Click here to submit your own question for the Q&A Round Table episodes! Quote of the Week “Real, natural learning is in the living. It’s in the observing, the questioning, the examining, the pondering, the breathing, the choosing, the reading, the […]
EU012: Growing up Unschooling with Idzie Desmarais
Mar 24, 2016
Idzie Desmarais is a 25 year old grown unschooler and author of the blog, I’m Unschooled. Yes, I Can Write. I’ve know Idzie’s mom online for many years, and watched from a distance as Idzie became interested in the process of unschooling itself and started her blog, way back in 2008. In 2010, I was hosting […]
EU011: Unschooling a Child With a Chronic Illness with Brie Jontry
Mar 17, 2016
Brie Jontry is an unschooling mom I’ve connected with a few times over the years because we share the experience of having a child who is living with a chronic illness. At first glance, it might seem like you’d need to drop some unschooling principles when your child’s health is in question, so I was […]
EU010: Unschooling Dads with Rick Rossing
Mar 10, 2016
Rick Rossing is a stay-at-home unschooling dad. He and his wife, Deb, have one child, Joshua. I’ve known him and his family for years through unschooling circles and we’ve met a few times at conferences and gatherings. In today’s episode, Rick and I talk about his unschooling experience. Quote of the Week “Do not ask that your […]
EU009: Ten Questions with Amy Childs
Mar 03, 2016
Amy Childs is an unschooling mom to three lovable, and now adult, children. She’s also the producer of The Unschooling Life Podcast and a happiness consultant. In today’s episode, I ask her ten questions about her unschooling experience. Quote of the Week “Raising children with an emphasis on intrinsic rewards is not a technique, a method […]
EU008: Q&A Round Table
Feb 25, 2016
Anne Ohman and Anna Brown, both veteran unschooling parents, join me to answer listener questions. Click here to submit your own question for the Q&A Round Table episodes! Quote of the Week “We live in a world awash with information, but we seem to face a growing scarcity of wisdom. And what’s worse, we confuse the […]
EU007: Diving into Parenting with Anna Brown
Feb 18, 2016
Anna Brown is a long-time unschooling mom to two lovely daughters, ages 16 and 18. I met her online years ago through the Shine with Unschooling email list and have loved connecting with her more deeply over the years. She gave a talk a couple of years ago at an unschooling conference that I loved and […]
EU006: Unschooling Dads with Skyler Collins
Feb 11, 2016
Skyler is an unschooling dad of three children and is the editor of Unschooling Dads: Twenty-two Testimonials on Their Unconventional Approach to Education. It’s not often that we get to hear about unschooling from the dad’s perspective, and I love that you took the time and effort to pull this book together. I really enjoyed […]
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