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Excess Returns

Excess Returns is dedicated to making you a better long-term investor and making complex investing topics understandable. Join Jack Forehand, Justin Carbonneau and Matt Zeigler as they sit down with some of the most interesting names in finance to discuss topics like macroeconomics, value investing, factor investing, and more. Subscribe to learn along with us.

Latest Episodes:

We Asked David Rosenberg Why He Owns Almost No US Stocks — and What He Holds Instead Apr 19, 2026

Show notes

This episode features David Rosenberg, founder of Rosenberg Research, breaking down why today’s market may be driven more by valuation excess and investor behavior than fundamentals. He explains why the biggest risks right now are not obvious in headline data, and why the probability distribution for markets may be far more fragile than investors assume.

Rosenberg walks through his framework for thinking in probabilities, how AI-driven productivity is distorting economic signals, why the equity market is now driving the economy, and what a “silent contraction” beneath the surface could mean for growth, inflation, and returns. He also outlines how he is positioning portfolios in response to these risks.

Rosenberg Research
https://www.rosenbergresearch.com

Topics Covered

Why markets may be a “bubble in behavior,” not technology
The equity risk premium at zero and what that implies for future returns
CAPE valuations and why long-term returns could be flat to negative
The shift from economy driving markets to markets driving the economy
The “silent contraction” beneath strong GDP headlines
AI-driven productivity vs weakening labor markets
The K-shaped economy across consumers, jobs, and capital spending
Why the savings rate is the most important overlooked economic variable
Inflation outlook: why this shock may be disinflationary, not persistent
Portfolio construction in a low-return, high-uncertainty environment

Timestamps
00:00 Intro
04:42 Cycle thinking vs “perma bear” label
09:58 Learning probabilistic thinking and Plan B
15:52 The “sixth mega bubble” and investor behavior
20:36 Why valuations imply poor forward returns
25:08 The “silent contraction” beneath headline data
29:14 The savings rate and equity wealth effect
33:12 Fiscal deficits and artificial economic support
38:28 2027 outlook and shifting probabilities
43:02 Why expectations matter more than recession calls
45:40 Inflation shock vs wage-driven inflation
49:22 Productivity boom and disinflation forces
53:10 Why inflation may fall faster than expected
55:04 Portfolio positioning and diversification strategy
01:00:12 Tactical vs thematic investing framework
01:03:10 Final thoughts on risk, probabilities, and markets

The Resilience No One Trusts | Brent Donnelly on Why War and Oil Haven’t Broken This Market Apr 17, 2026

Show notes

Brent Donnelly returns to Excess Returns to break down one of the most confusing market environments in years, where policy shocks, volatility, and positioning matter more than traditional fundamentals. He explains why markets can keep rising despite constant bad news, how traders should think about regime shifts, and what actually drives moves across equities, bonds, FX, and gold today.

Brent also shares practical insights from his trading process, including risk management, journaling, and how to think about positioning and asymmetric opportunities. The conversation spans macro frameworks, behavioral pitfalls, and the evolving nature of market edges, offering a detailed look at how a professional trader navigates uncertainty.

Spectra Markets
https://www.spectramarkets.com

Topics covered:

Why stocks need a steady stream of bad news to go down and what drives rallies
The impact of constant policy shocks on volatility, positioning, and mean reversion
How to distinguish structural trends from short-term trading opportunities
The “wall of worry” and why markets can ignore negative headlines
The importance of Mag 7 earnings and concentration in today’s market
How traders use reassessment triggers like the 200-day moving average
The complexity of central bank reactions to oil shocks and inflation
Why bonds still matter as a recession hedge despite recent correlation breakdowns
How positioning—not fundamentals—drives moves in the U.S. dollar
Gold, silver, and Bitcoin through the lens of flows, retail behavior, and debasement
The role of overconfidence and risk management in trading success
Brent’s journaling process and how writing clarifies thinking
How to identify asymmetric trades using potential headline scenarios
Why edges in markets are temporary and require constant adaptation

Timestamps:
00:00 Intro
02:05 Government policy shocks and market impact
05:10 Volatility, shocks, and trading frameworks
09:05 Why the economy remains resilient despite rate hikes
13:05 Market concentration and the importance of big tech earnings
16:05 The “steady stream of bad news” framework for stocks
18:30 Using the 200-day moving average and pattern recognition
22:10 Central banks, oil shocks, and inflation dynamics
24:35 Stocks vs bonds and the 60/40 portfolio outlook
26:05 Why dollar moves depend on positioning, not narratives
30:55 Gold, silver, and the retail-driven momentum cycle
34:05 The debasement trade and long-term gold thesis
38:10 Rationality vs overconfidence in trading
41:05 Risk management, journaling, and avoiding blowups
46:00 Thinking in probabilities, positioning, and market expectations
50:55 Journaling as a tool for clarity and discipline
55:00 Why traders lose discipline when over-earning
59:10 Brent’s new book and evolving trading frameworks
01:03:30 Where to find Brent and closing thoughts

The Bear Market No One Sees | Liz Ann Sonders on the Real Story Indexes Hide Apr 15, 2026

Show notes

Liz Ann Sonders of Schwab joins Excess Returns to break down how war, an oil shock, and shifting market dynamics are reshaping the investing landscape. She explains why the surface-level strength in markets is misleading, what’s really happening beneath the index, and how investors should think about inflation, the Fed, AI, and the evolving role of retail traders.

Follow Liz Ann on Twitter
https://twitter.com/LizAnnSonders

Liz Ann's Research and Commentaryhttps://www.schwab.com/learn/author/liz-ann-sondersTopics Covered

How war and oil shocks are impacting markets, inflation, and Fed policy
Why the US being a “net energy exporter” doesn’t protect investors
The hidden bear market beneath index-level resilience
Rotation vs. correction and what it means for portfolios
The rise of retail traders and the shift away from “dumb money”
Why better or worse data matters more than good or bad data
The K-shaped economy and its impact on consumption and markets
AI’s three phases and its real impact on jobs and productivity
Why this earnings season may be more important than usual
The shifting role of the Mag 7 and broader market participation
Why the bond market may be the true driver of equities
Risks in credit markets and what investors should watch
Labor market dynamics and challenges for younger workers
How investors and young professionals should think about AI

Timestamps
00:00 Intro and current market environment
04:05 Why the US isn’t immune to oil price shocks
05:35 Lessons from past oil shocks and inflation
07:22 Why markets seem resilient despite macro risks
08:00 The hidden drawdowns beneath the index surface
10:13 Rolling recessions and sector-level weakness
10:37 Are investors conditioned to buy every dip
12:58 What happens when the dip doesn’t get bought
14:36 Valuations, corrections, and market structure
15:12 Sentiment analysis in a new market regime
18:50 Retail investors outperforming institutions
20:08 Better or worse vs good or bad economic data
23:00 How markets anticipate economic turning points
25:22 Understanding the K-shaped economy
28:00 Wealth effects and risks from equity declines
29:09 AI as a transformative force vs macro risks
30:00 The three phases of AI development
33:04 Why this earnings season matters more
34:00 Earnings revisions and sector concentration
36:00 The future of Mag 7 leadership vs the rest of the market
38:00 Contribution vs performance in index returns
40:00 Sector sensitivity to inflation and supply chains
42:00 Fundamentals vs speculation in small caps
44:21 The Fed’s dilemma in an oil shock environment
48:00 Why the bond market is driving equities
50:05 Credit markets and systemic risk signals
53:26 Lessons from past bond market dislocations
54:19 Labor market challenges and younger workers
57:00 Career advice in the age of AI
59:26 How Liz Ann uses AI in her research process
01:01:00 Closing thoughts and where to follow Liz Ann

The Forever Invariable Truth | Jim Grant on War, Inflation, and What Comes Next Apr 13, 2026

Show notes

This episode features Jim Grant of Grant’s Interest Rate Observer on inflation, war, monetary policy, and the long arc of credit cycles. Grant explains why inflation is ultimately driven by monetary debasement and why war, fiscal policy, and central bank actions may be setting the stage for a more persistent inflationary regime than markets expect.

We explore how today’s environment compares to past inflationary periods, the hidden risks in credit markets and public debt, and what history teaches us about AI investment booms, oil shocks, and monetary disruption. Grant also discusses trust in financial systems, the role of gold, and why markets are always harder in real time than they appear in hindsight.

Grant’s Interest Rate Observer
https://www.grantspub.com/

Topics Covered:

Why war is inherently inflationary and how it strains the productive economy
The difference between measured economic stability and underlying systemic risks
How inflation shifted from a wartime phenomenon to a permanent feature of modern monetary policy
The Fed’s 2% inflation target as a structural form of currency debasement
Lessons from the 1970s inflation and oil shocks vs. today’s environment
Why inflation is a ratchet that erodes purchasing power over time
The importance of trust in credit markets and growing risks in private credit structures
Public debt, Treasury market dynamics, and early signs of strain in government financing
Historical parallels between AI investment and past technological booms like the internet
The role of gold as a hedge against (and investment in) monetary instability
The durability of the US dollar despite long-term structural concerns
Why investing is always difficult in the present—even when it looks obvious in hindsight

Timestamps:
00:00 Intro and Jim Grant on the true causes of inflation
04:04 Why war drives sustained inflation and current geopolitical risks
08:00 Historical perspective on inflation before the 1970s
12:00 Oil shocks, Volcker, and lessons from past inflation cycles
16:00 Why inflation never reverses and purchasing power declines
20:00 Trust in markets and the foundation of credit systems
24:00 Private credit risks and the modern credit cycle
28:00 Public debt, Treasury markets, and fiscal sustainability concerns
32:00 Treasury auctions, yields, and early warning signs in bonds
35:25 AI capex boom and lessons from past technological bubbles
38:17 Air conditioning, internet bubbles, and delayed economic payoffs
40:00 The Fed, Treasury, and hidden financial interdependence
44:14 Asset allocation, gold, and monetary disruption
48:44 The dollar’s strength and global dominance
53:41 Why investing is always difficult in real time
59:00 Advice on markets, newsletters, and enduring uncertainty

The Market the Tweets Can’t Break | What the Options Market Tells Us About What Comes Next Apr 11, 2026

Show notes

Subscribe to the OPEX Effect on Spotify⁠⁠

⁠⁠Subscribe to the OPEX Effect on Apple Podcasts

This episode of The Opex Effect breaks down why markets have remained surprisingly resilient despite geopolitical chaos, an oil shock, and extreme headline risk. Brent Kochuba joins Jack Forehand to analyze what’s really driving the market beneath the surface—from options flows and gamma positioning to the collapse in volatility and what it signals for the next move.

They explore how the options market is shaping price action in ways most investors miss, why the VIX collapsed despite elevated risk, and what positioning tells us about the path forward as we head into earnings and the next major options expiration.

Topics covered:

Why markets have stayed near highs despite war, oil spikes, and macro uncertainty
The “taco trade” and why investors expect bad news to reverse quickly
How options flows and dealer hedging are influencing stock prices
Why call options are historically cheap heading into earnings
The mechanics of gamma, delta hedging, and market maker positioning
Why options expiration (OpEx) can act as a turning point for markets
The divergence between oil prices and equity volatility
What the collapse in the VIX reveals about investor positioning
The role of zero-DTE options in reinforcing short-term market ranges
Key resistance levels forming from call selling and what they mean for upside

Timestamps:

00:00 Why markets aren’t reacting to geopolitical chaos
04:18 The “taco trade” and shifting market expectations
07:30 How options flows influence stock market movements
11:10 Why OpEx can drive market turning points
13:05 Volatility compression and the gamma-volatility relationship
15:30 How large options positioning shapes market behavior
18:05 Why positioning has shifted toward calls
20:00 Why this OpEx may be less impactful than prior ones
22:00 Market positioning into earnings and key drivers ahead
24:10 Using gamma maps to identify support and resistance
27:00 Revisiting the JP Morgan collar trade and March lows
30:00 Correlation spikes and the oil-volatility relationship
33:00 Why oil has stopped driving equity volatility
34:30 The breakdown between oil and VIX correlation
36:00 Why volatility may reprice higher after OpEx
37:05 The oil curve and expectations for a short-term shock
39:40 One of the largest VIX collapses ever
41:00 How options positioning drove the volatility unwind
43:00 Why selling volatility has become a dominant strategy
45:00 The feedback loop between rising markets and falling volatility

For more information on SpotGamma and Brent’s work:
https://spotgamma.com

Follow Brent on Twitter:
https://twitter.com/spotgamma

The Risk at the End of the Whip | GMO’s Tom Hancock on Finding Conviction Amid the AI Hype Apr 09, 2026

Show notes

This episode of Excess Returns features GMO’s Tom Hancock on how to think about AI as an investment opportunity and what truly defines “quality” in today’s market. The conversation breaks down the AI value chain, challenges common assumptions about where value will accrue, and ties it all back to building durable portfolios in a rapidly changing technological landscape.

Tom walks through his “Hype vs High Conviction” framework, explaining why identifying the right layer of the AI ecosystem may matter more than simply betting on the theme itself, and why balance sheets, durability, and capital allocation remain critical even in the most exciting growth environments.

Hype vs High Conviction

https://www.gmo.com/americas/research-library/hype-vs-high-conviction_insights/

Topics Covered:

Why AI may be the most important investment decision today
The four-layer AI stack: applications, LLMs, hyperscalers, and infrastructure
Why investors confuse secular trends with investable opportunities
Following the money through the AI value chain
The hidden risks of investing lower in the stack
Why today’s tech leaders differ from the dot-com era
Growth vs maintenance capex and what it means for AI economics
Why software may be more resilient than markets think
How GMO defines “quality” and why it matters in volatile markets
Portfolio construction: where GMO is investing (and avoiding) in AI

Timestamps:
00:00 Intro and framing the AI investment debate
00:00:55 Tom Hancock background and focus on quality investing
00:02:00 What investors are getting wrong about AI
00:03:23 Breaking down the four layers of the AI ecosystem
00:06:45 Applications vs infrastructure: where value may accrue
00:08:45 Why predicting AI winners is still difficult
00:11:00 Following the cash flows through the AI stack
00:13:00 Why AI funding is more stable than past tech bubbles
00:16:00 Big Tech strategy differences and capital allocation decisions
00:17:34 Are today’s tech companies higher quality than in 1999?
00:19:00 Growth vs maintenance capex and implications for Nvidia and others
00:22:00 Depreciation, chip lifecycles, and hidden risks in capex assumptions
00:24:00 Capital intensity vs quality: when heavy investment is a feature
00:27:00 Why incumbents may benefit most from AI
00:28:30 Risks in the LLM layer and potential commoditization
00:30:10 Software disruption fears: overdone or justified?
00:34:06 Defining “quality” in investing
00:36:00 Balance sheets vs return on capital
00:38:32 Why GMO sold Oracle and the risks of leverage
00:40:18 What happens if AI spending slows down
00:41:35 Where the biggest risks are in the AI stack
00:44:26 Where GMO is positioned vs the S&P 500
00:48:00 How new ideas enter a quality portfolio
00:51:00 Sell discipline and portfolio turnover
00:53:00 International vs US quality investing

The Walmart Indicator Just Hit 2008 Levels | Jim Paulsen on the Big Difference This Time Apr 08, 2026

Show notes

This episode of Excess Returns features Jim Paulsen breaking down the current macro environment through a series of powerful indicators, including oil, interest rates, consumer behavior, and market sentiment. The discussion explores whether today’s environment signals a slowing economy—or the early stages of a new bull market hidden beneath the surface.

Subscribe to the Jim Paulsen Show on Spotify⁠

⁠Subscribe to the Jim Paulsen Show on Apple Podcasts

Jim walks through a wide range of charts and frameworks, from the Walmart vs. luxury retail signal to private credit stress, productivity trends, and policy uncertainty, offering a data-driven perspective on where markets and the economy may be headed next.

Paulsen Perspectives Substack
https://paulsenperspectives.substack.com

Topics Covered

Why the recent oil spike hasn’t impacted inflation and interest rates as expected
Slowing economic growth vs. recession risk and what the Fed might do next
The Walmart vs luxury retail indicator and what it signals about the economy
Private credit risks and how they differ from traditional credit crises
Why many indicators point to a new bull market rather than a bear
The role of sentiment, volatility, and uncertainty in driving market returns
Market rotation from mega-cap “new era” stocks to broader market leadership
Corporate profits divergence and the opportunity in the rest of the economy
Liquidity, cash levels, and positioning as potential fuel for markets
Productivity trends and whether AI-driven gains are real or overstated

Timestamps
00:00 Intro and current macro backdrop
01:05 Oil spike and limited impact on yields and inflation
04:45 Growth outlook and why recession may still be avoided
07:10 Fed policy and the stagflation question
10:15 Walmart vs luxury retail indicator explained
13:40 Private credit stress vs traditional credit cycles
17:00 Why this isn’t 2008 and how balance sheets differ
19:50 Private credit risks and market spillover effects
22:15 Bear market fears vs signs of a new bull
23:45 Consumer confidence and its impact on returns
25:05 Oil spikes historically as buy signals
26:15 VIX, volatility, and market bottoms
27:05 Yield curve steepening and market implications
28:05 Sentiment indicators and what they really reflect
30:00 Market rotation and broadening beyond mega caps
32:45 Passing the baton from tech to broader markets
35:15 Corporate profits divergence and future potential
37:00 Policy uncertainty and why it can be bullish
42:05 Liquidity, cash levels, and risk allocation
43:20 Options positioning and put-call signals
44:05 Gold vs commodities and risk appetite
45:10 Consumer credit contraction and market signals
46:20 Polymarket recession probabilities as sentiment
47:30 Economic sentiment collapse and contrarian signals
48:10 Interest rate expectations and positioning
49:05 Unemployment trends and historical market bottoms
50:25 Productivity trends and AI impact on the economy

The Inevitability No One Sees | $11 Billion Tech Manager on What Investors Miss About AI Apr 06, 2026

Show notes

This episode of Excess Returns features Tony Wang of T. Rowe Price discussing how investors can identify “inevitabilities” in technology and position portfolios to benefit from long-term innovation trends. The conversation explores AI, semiconductors, and the evolving investment landscape, while also breaking down Tony’s portfolio construction process and how he navigates cycles, valuation, and disruption risk.

Tony explains why AI is fundamentally changing the cost of intelligence, how agentic systems could reshape software and labor markets, and why the current AI buildout may differ from past tech cycles. The discussion also dives into where we are in the AI cycle, how to think about the Mag 7, and what investors may be missing across the tech stack.

T. Rowe Price Science and Technology Fund
https://www.troweprice.com/financial-intermediary/us/en/investments/mutual-funds/us-products/science-and-technology-fund.htmlTopics Covered

What it means to invest in “inevitabilities” and separating signal from noise in markets
Why AI and compute demand represent a structural shift similar to past tech waves
The rise of agentic AI and how it could transform software and productivity
Whether AI is underappreciated or already priced into markets
The “multiple moons” idea and why AI may not be a winner-take-all market
How AI could reshape the labor market, productivity, and economic growth
The AI CapEx debate and why this cycle may differ from the dot-com buildout
Where we are in the AI cycle: training vs inferencing and deployment phase
The impact of AI on software companies and the innovator’s dilemma
How semiconductors, memory, and infrastructure remain key bottlenecks
The changing nature of the Mag 7 and capital intensity in AI
Tony’s portfolio construction framework across compounders, emerging tech, and value
How he generates ideas using S-curve adoption and economic bottlenecks
Position sizing, risk management, and balancing growth with drawdown control
Sell discipline: valuation, fundamentals, and market signals

Timestamps
00:00 Introduction and Tony Wang overview
01:05 Investing in inevitabilities and long-term thinking
03:00 Differentiating inevitability from hype and consensus
04:45 AI inevitability and the rise of agentic systems
07:00 Cost of intelligence and productivity implications
08:00 Real-world examples of AI adoption (customer service, agents)
09:00 Is AI underappreciated by markets?
11:15 AI as a “space race with multiple moons”
13:30 AI as the dominant driver of markets today
15:00 AI’s impact on jobs, productivity, and the economy
18:30 Creativity, judgment, and the future of work
20:45 Physical AI and robotics opportunity set
22:30 AI CapEx debate vs the dot-com era
25:30 Semiconductors vs software in the AI stack
28:15 AI disruption risk for software companies
31:00 Cyclicality in semiconductors and how AI changes it
33:30 The evolving role of the Mag 7 in AI
36:30 Competition, startups, and AI democratization
38:00 Where we are in the AI cycle today
40:00 Idea generation and S-curve adoption framework
42:30 Case study: memory and AI bottlenecks
44:45 Example position: optical networking and infrastructure
46:40 Portfolio construction and position sizing
49:00 Sell discipline and managing valuation risk

The Signal Before the Spike | Katie Stockton on What the Charts Tell Us About What Comes Next Apr 03, 2026

Show notes

This episode explores the growing signs of a shift beneath the surface of the market, as technical indicators point to weakening momentum in equities and a potential change in leadership. Katie Stockton joins the show to break down what recent signals in the S&P 500, oil, gold, and sector rotation are telling us about where markets may be headed next.

We cover the implications of a new monthly MACD sell signal, the importance of market breadth and leadership, and how investors can interpret shifting trends across asset classes using a disciplined technical framework.

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