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    Personal Journals

    Everything’s Relative with Eve Sturges

    Become a Paid Subscriber: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/everythingsrelative/subscribe

    With heart and humor, Eve Sturges explores the modern landscape of DNA testing after a single phone call turns her world upside down. By talking with others who have had “DNA discoveries,” Eve hopes to change the conversation around secrets, shame, family, and identity.

    Advertise

    Copyright: © Eve Sturges

    • Apple Podcasts
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    Latest Episodes:
    Jack Fronczak: Lost and Found (or, The Triple Disappearance of Paul Fronczak) Sep 16, 2023
    Show notes
    • Support The Everything's Relative Roadtrip Now! ⁠
    episode 100!!!!

    Eve spends some time with Jack "Paul" Fronczak, who was the subject of CNN's recent documentary The Lost Sons, as well as the co-writer of The Foundling, and True Identity . TW: traumatic events, abuse

    For more information about the case, and to contact Jack Fronczak: www.fronczakfiles.com

    Show Information

    Subscribe to Everything's Relative Substack for 2024 Updates

    Buy the process journal ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Who Even Am I Anymore ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

    Instagram: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@everythingsrelativepodcast⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

    Facebook: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@everythingsrelativepodcast⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

    Twitter: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@evesturges⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

    Email: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠eve@everythingsrelativepodcast.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

    Patreon: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.patreon.com/everythingsrelativepodcast⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

    Website: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠www.everythingsrelativepodcast.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

    Subscribe: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Apple Podcasts ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

    Spotify Playlist: ⁠⁠100 Songs for 100 Episodes! ⁠⁠

    Hiraeth Hope & Healing Retreats: ⁠⁠www.hiraethhopeandhealing.com⁠


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    Michelle: It Was As If My Life Suddenly Made Sense, Even Though I'd Never Thought It Didn't Make Sense Sep 09, 2023
    Show notes
    • Support The Everything's Relative Roadtrip Now! ⁠
    Michelle talks about her upscale Atlanta upbringing, her mother's anxiety, and what kind of truths unfolded before her when she took a mail-in DNA Test. (episode 99 of 100)

    Show Information

    Subscribe to Everything's Relative Substack for 2024 Updates

    Buy the process journal ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Who Even Am I Anymore ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

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    Twitter: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@evesturges⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

    Email: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠eve@everythingsrelativepodcast.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

    Patreon: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.patreon.com/everythingsrelativepodcast⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

    Website: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠www.everythingsrelativepodcast.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

    Subscribe: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Apple Podcasts ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

    Spotify Playlist: ⁠⁠100 Songs for 100 Episodes! ⁠⁠

    Hiraeth Hope & Healing Retreats: ⁠⁠www.hiraethhopeandhealing.com⁠⁠


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    Sheridan Anderson: Don't Go To The Hardware Store For Milk Sep 02, 2023
    Show notes
    • Support The Everything's Relative Roadtrip Now! ⁠
    Sheridan comes at her own DNA Discovery experience as a therapist who uses Dialectical Behavior Therapy with her clients. Sheridan is a licensed therapist in Minnesota.

    Show Information

    Subscribe to Everything's Relative Substack for 2024 Updates

    Buy the process journal ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Who Even Am I Anymore ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

    Instagram: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@everythingsrelativepodcast⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

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    Twitter: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@evesturges⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

    Email: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠eve@everythingsrelativepodcast.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

    Patreon: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.patreon.com/everythingsrelativepodcast⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

    Website: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠www.everythingsrelativepodcast.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

    Subscribe: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Apple Podcasts ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

    Spotify Playlist: ⁠⁠100 Songs for 100 Episodes! ⁠⁠

    Hiraeth Hope & Healing Retreats: ⁠⁠www.hiraethhopeandhealing.com⁠


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    Jennie: In Life as a Richard Scary Illustration, Everyone Has A Path Aug 26, 2023
    Show notes
    • Support The Everything's Relative Roadtrip Now! ⁠
    Jennie talks about the secrets her family was hiding about donor conception. Subscribe and read Jennie's substack* about her journey here.

    *A Substack is kind of like a blend of a newsletter and a blog!

    Show Information

    Subscribe to Everything's Relative Substack for 2024 Updates

    Buy the process journal ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Who Even Am I Anymore ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

    Instagram: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@everythingsrelativepodcast⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

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    Twitter: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@evesturges⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

    Email: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠eve@everythingsrelativepodcast.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

    Patreon: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.patreon.com/everythingsrelativepodcast⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

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    Subscribe: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Apple Podcasts ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

    Spotify Playlist: ⁠⁠100 Songs for 100 Episodes! ⁠⁠

    Hiraeth Hope & Healing Retreats: ⁠⁠www.hiraethhopeandhealing.com⁠


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    Rebecca Berg of No Strings Nutrition: Adoption Is In Her Body, Too. Aug 19, 2023
    Show notes
    • Support The Everything's Relative Roadtrip Now! ⁠
    Rebecca Berg of No Strings Nutrition in Los Angeles California, talks about how coming out of the adoption fog has informed her work as a licensed dietician.

    Find Rebecca on instagram @no.strings.nutrition

    Show Information

    Subscribe to Everything's Relative Substack for 2024 Updates

    Buy the process journal ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Who Even Am I Anymore ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

    Instagram: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@everythingsrelativepodcast⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

    Facebook: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@everythingsrelativepodcast⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

    Twitter: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@evesturges⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

    Email: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠eve@everythingsrelativepodcast.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

    Patreon: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.patreon.com/everythingsrelativepodcast⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

    Website: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠www.everythingsrelativepodcast.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

    Subscribe: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Apple Podcasts ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

    Spotify Playlist: ⁠⁠100 Songs for 100 Episodes! ⁠⁠

    Hiraeth Hope & Healing Retreats: ⁠⁠www.hiraethhopeandhealing.com⁠

    CORRECTIONS CORNER: Rebecca states in this episode that her biological mother did not complete a high school education. This is incorrect; Rebecca feels badly for the misstep, and reiterated to Eve that her bio-mom is a successful and driven woman.


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    Kristin: She's Italian, She's From Long Island. She Launches. Aug 12, 2023
    Show notes
    • Support The Everything's Relative Roadtrip Now! ⁠
    Kristin talks about how isolated she feels, even within the Misattributed Parental Event community because of the strife she's experienced from her DNA discovery.

    Show Information

    Subscribe to Everything's Relative Substack for 2024 Updates

    Buy the process journal ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Who Even Am I Anymore ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

    Instagram: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@everythingsrelativepodcast⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

    Facebook: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@everythingsrelativepodcast⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

    Twitter: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@evesturges⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

    Email: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠eve@everythingsrelativepodcast.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

    Patreon: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.patreon.com/everythingsrelativepodcast⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

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    Subscribe: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Apple Podcasts ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

    Spotify Playlist: ⁠⁠100 Songs for 100 Episodes! ⁠⁠

    Hiraeth Hope & Healing Retreats: ⁠⁠www.hiraethhopeandhealing.com⁠


    Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.


    Meg Thomas: Emotional Expedition Podcast Aug 05, 2023
    Show notes
    • Support The Everything's Relative Roadtrip Now! ⁠
    Meg Thomas, host of Emotional Expedition Podcast, talks with Eve about learning she was a Donor Conceived Person, which has had a major impact on her personal fertility journey and her work as a fertility coach.

    Show Information

    Subscribe to Everything's Relative Substack for 2024 Updates

    Buy the process journal ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Who Even Am I Anymore ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

    Instagram: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@everythingsrelativepodcast⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

    Facebook: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@everythingsrelativepodcast⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

    Twitter: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@evesturges⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

    Email: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠eve@everythingsrelativepodcast.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

    Patreon: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.patreon.com/everythingsrelativepodcast⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

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    Subscribe: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Apple Podcasts ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

    Spotify Playlist: ⁠⁠100 Songs for 100 Episodes! ⁠⁠

    Hiraeth Hope & Healing Retreats: ⁠⁠www.hiraethhopeandhealing.com⁠


    Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.


    Jill: When The Apple Falls Far From The Tree Jul 29, 2023
    Show notes
    • Support The Everything's Relative Roadtrip Now! ⁠
    Jill, AKA Margo Reilly, talks about how her mom was telling the truth all those years ago. Jill is the author of When The Apple Falls Far From The Tree, and is now working on a second memoir that focuses on her DNA Discovery. She works as an empowerment coach; find more about her at www.justbeingjill.com

    Show Information

    Subscribe to Everything's Relative Substack for 2024 Updates

    Buy the process journal ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Who Even Am I Anymore ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

    Instagram: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@everythingsrelativepodcast⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

    Facebook: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@everythingsrelativepodcast⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

    Twitter: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@evesturges⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

    Email: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠eve@everythingsrelativepodcast.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

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    Subscribe: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Apple Podcasts ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

    Spotify Playlist: ⁠⁠100 Songs for 100 Episodes! ⁠⁠

    Hiraeth Hope & Healing Retreats: ⁠⁠www.hiraethhopeandhealing.com⁠


    Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.


    Rebecca Autumn Sansom: Reckoning With The Primal Wound Jul 21, 2023
    Show notes
    • Support The Everything's Relative Roadtrip Now! ⁠
    Rebecca Autumn Sansom, relinquished at birth for adoption, created the powerful documentary, Reckoning With The Primal Wound about reunion with her own birth mother, and an exploration of the seminal adoption book The Primal Wound, by Nancy Verrier.

    Show Information

    Subscribe to Everything's Relative Substack for 2024 Updates

    Buy the process journal ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Who Even Am I Anymore ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

    Instagram: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@everythingsrelativepodcast⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

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    Twitter: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@evesturges⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

    Email: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠eve@everythingsrelativepodcast.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

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    Website: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠www.everythingsrelativepodcast.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

    Subscribe: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Apple Podcasts ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

    Spotify Playlist: ⁠⁠100 Songs for 100 Episodes! ⁠⁠

    Hiraeth Hope & Healing Retreats: ⁠⁠www.hiraethhopeandhealing.com⁠


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    Caroline: The Man Who Ran Las Vegas (is her dad.) Jul 15, 2023
    Show notes

    NOTE: the wikipedia page of another former sheriff of Las Vegas, Ralph Lamb, uses this episode to incorrectly report that Caroline is his daughter. She does not claim be related to the Lamb family in any way, nor am I suggesting this by categorizing her biological father as "the man who ran Las Vegas."

    Caroline talks with Eve about her DNA surprise, The Stardust Casino in Las Vegas, and reconciling her family narrative with scientific proof.

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