Decouple - Dr. Chris Keefer

Latest Episodes:

Can You Dig It? Should You Dig It? All About Mining Nov 22, 2021

Show notes

Mining underpins nearly everything in our modern lives. Essentially, if we didn't grow it, we mined it. Dr. Richard Herrington, an academic geologist and Head of Earth Sciences at the Natural History Museum in London, digs deep on the topic of mining. Yet in terms of public visibility, mining is perhaps even more hidden from view than agriculture in rich nations. Dr. Herrington offers a brief history of materials use, from a time when we used only a few minerals to the present, where we regularly use many dozens of different elements in a single product due to their varied and unique properties. We discuss the environmental and human impacts of mining as well as important processing stages, which often have hard-to-avoid impacts, such as the inherent formation of carbon dioxide in concrete making and iron smelting. Among Dr. Herrington's research interests are more environmentally-benign industrial processes, such as using lower temperatures or microbes. We move onto geological topics relevant to the energy transition, touching briefly on Deep Geological Repository for used nuclear fuel before discussing Cobalt, Lithium, and the utter certainty that renewable technologies will lead to increases in mining and mineral requirements. Other topics include why much of the mining and processing for rare earth metals and electric motors takes place in China and, finally, prospects for deep sea mining.

Indigenous Climate Action Nov 18, 2021

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Eriel Tchekwie Deranger is a member of the Athabasca Chipewyan First Nation and the Executive Director of Indigenous Climate Action. Eriel critiques pointing out that wealthy countries engaging in "climate action" tend to do so from a co-optive or colonial framework rather than one of "decolonizing." She argues this tendency has pervaded environmentalism from the outset, as a philosophy originating from the upper and middle classes that views nature as something external that must be protected from humans. From an indigenous perspective, Eriel says, nature is not an externality. She emphasizes the importance of solutions to environmental and climate issues "guided by relationships not only with each other but across species and with the natural world itself." We go on to discuss Eriel's personal grievances with the uranium mines in northern Canada, the impacts of uranium mining on indigenous communities, and how to balance the unavoidable mining requirements of energy production with the wellbeing of people and ecosystems. Eriel argues that by changing our attitudes on consumption, the land, language, culture, food systems, etc. to value relationships and reciprocity over extraction, we might become less dependent on the energy systems that many can't imagine living without. Learn more about Eriel's work with Indigenous Climate Action at https://www.indigenousclimateaction.com/

Is African Poverty a Climate Solution? Nov 15, 2021

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Special Decouple Studios mini-doc from inside the walls of COP26. Decouple's Jesse Freeston follows two young nuclear energy advocates, Shirly Rodriguez and Princess Mbthobeni, as they roam the conference searching for evidence of a meaningful plan to reduce emissions AND raise living standards in Africa and beyond. Shirly Rodriguez is a nuclear engineer, and Princess Mbthoneni is the Nuclear Stakeholder Management Advisor for South Africa's Department of Mineral Resources and Energy, as well as the founder of Africa4Nuclear. Watch the original video version here https://youtu.be/WjbvxwSy3O8

A Sober Sitdown with the German Climate Negotiators Nov 11, 2021

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What has the Energiewende achieved, what hasn't it? An interview with the spokesperson for the German delegation to COP26, Stephan Gabriel Haufe. We discuss the expedited nuclear phaseout, ongoing reliance on coal until 2038, advances in solar + wind energy and the Nordstream 2 gas pipeline.

France’s Second Nuclear Renaissance? Nov 10, 2021

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Dr. Keefer sits down in Glasgow with Carine de Boissezon, who is the Chief Sustainability Officer at the French electric utility Électricité de France. Carine brings a valuable inside perspective on nuclear power in France, a country that Decouple has frequently regarded as an exemplar of rapid decarbonization. Reversing intentions to reduce France's share of electricity from nuclear from 75% to 50%, President Macron recently announced that France would "relaunch" its construction of nuclear reactors to meet growing electricity and decarbonization needs. In this special in-person interview at COP26, we discuss how France has benefitted from nuclear power, what the nuclear "relaunch" means for the country, French public opinion, how renewables and nuclear interact, and more. Stay tuned for more COP26 content!

Will the Revolution be Funded? Nov 08, 2021

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Decouple mobile studios reports from Glasgow, Scotland, where Dr. Keefer and other pro-nuclear advocates are attending COP26, the 2021 UN Climate Change Conference. Dr. Keefer is joined in-person by Eric Meyer, founder and executive director of the nuclear advocacy hub Generation Atomic, to discuss the goings on of COP26, the growing pro-nuclear movement, and the taboo subject of funding.

Michael Shellenberger: A Heretic Among Heretics Nov 04, 2021

Show notes

In this episode, I am joined by returning guest Michael Shellenberger. We briefly discuss his new book San Fransicko, which, like his best-seller Apocalypse Never, takes a heterodox stance on an issue that progressives feel they champion -- in this case, the drug and homelessness epidemic. We then transition to his past (and future) work in nuclear advocacy.

Shellenberger has paid a toll for challenging orthodoxies within the environmental and nuclear communities, including the loss of many donors to his organization Environmental Progress. At the same time, he has managed to reach and engage broad audiences in a way that most within the environment and energy spheres only dream of.

We dive into the internal politics of nuclear advocacy, even offering a taxonomy of the nuclear advocacy ecosystem. In this taxonomy, Shellenberger self-identifies as a mix of Libertarian and Climate-nuclear, though he is admittedly “lukewarm” on climate.

Dr. Keefer and Shellenberger both worry that the nuclear establishment will “fuck up” its opportunity for another nuclear renaissance. Its attempts to placate the renewable lobby has, among other things, distracted from the value of existing nuclear. Shellenberger would prefer “boring nuclear,” proven designs done over and over, funded with patient capital, "pension fund stuff.”

There are, however, reasons to be hopeful. Shellenberger calls a recent video posted to President Macron's Twitter, which situates nuclear in the context of technological sophistication, hope, and achievement, a “watershed moment in the pro-nuclear movement.” In major news media, pieces have come out about the pronuclear movements in Belgium, Germany, Japan, and elsewhere. It is a moment we need to seize.

Lastly, we touch on Shellenberger’s view of the connection between nuclear energy and nuclear weapons. Moreso than other nuclear advocates, he sees them as connected. This is in fact a major topic in Shellenberger’s next book.

Listen to Michael Shellenberger on Joe Rogan: https://open.spotify.com/episode/5NxzDE5TmviUV8te2eZjMP?si=pka9Kr0bTc2K1gEQMhYc1g

Buy San Fransicko and Apocalypse Never.

Its Gas or Nuclear, you Pickering Nov 01, 2021

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In this special episode, I am joined live by filmmaker Jesse Freeston on the sunny beach in front of the Pickering Nuclear Generating Station, which provides Ontario with 3.2 GW of carbon-free electricity. I hand over the interviewer badge to Jesse for a second hour-long reflection on advocacy, antinuclearism, environmentalism, the Decouple journey, and anything else that crossed our minds on the scenic waterfront. Watch the interview on YouTube: https://youtu.be/IhkGTcULU54 Listen to the first reflections episode with Jesse Freeston: https://www.decouplepodcast.org/podcast/episode/1b36a823/reflections-on-the-decouple-journey-feat-jesse-freeston Stay tuned for Jesse's first episode of Decouple Studios later this week!

Sayonara Nuclear? Japan’s Energy Transitions Oct 26, 2021

Show notes

I am joined by Yuriy Humber, founder of Japan NRG, to discuss Japan’s complex relationship with nuclear technology and its energy issues past and present. The first and only wartime victim of atomic weapons, it went on to embrace nuclear energy for peaceful purposes, becoming a world leader in the manufacture of nuclear technology and relying on it for 30% of its electricity before turning against nuclear after the Fukushima accident in 2011. Public opinions against nuclear energy ran as high as 80% at one point.

A decade on and with new commitments to reducing emissions, public opposition is turning, and the government wants to revive nuclear power to improve Japan’s energy security in the context of the country’s high dependency on fuel imports and ongoing energy shocks around the world. Japan has started to invest in nuclear power technologies again, with some private money going into Small Modular Reactors (SMR) in the U.S. and state funding trickling into Japan’s own High-Temperature Gas-Cooled Reactor (HTGR) program.  Although local municipalities have the final say on restarting nuclear power plants, Humber says that the pro-nuclear message has been re-gaining popularity with many arguing that Japan cannot meet its “green growth” strategy without it. 

We discuss how Japan went from being the victim of nuclear weapons to a major player in nuclear energy, tying that in with a broader history of energy of Japan, characterized by a series of rapid energy transitions. The transition from coal to nuclear could serve as an example to other countries, though it was a process that faced many challenges of its own and relied on making some promises the government ultimately couldn’t keep. As someone who lived near both the Chernobyl and Fukushima accidents at the time when they occured, Humber has a first hand perspective on the cultural and political changes around nuclear in 2011. We discuss these aspects as well as technical problems facing Japanese energy supply following the closure of its many nuclear plants.

Finally, we discuss the alternatives for Japanese decarbonization. The challenge of providing constant power to a megapolis such as the Tokyo metro area is immense. Already Japan has the most solar panels per square meter of any country on Earth. And it has ambitious plans for off-shore wind and eventually a hydrogen economy. Carbon capture has been discussed, yet only one geological carbon storage test facility exists in all of Japan. The obstacles to more ambitious renewables plans too are becoming clear, not only from land use, materials intensity, and issues of intermittency, but NIMBYism. About 1/10 of all municipalities in Japan have ordinances to limit wind and solar deployment or ban it completely. Offshore wind forecasts of 10 GW by 2030 and 45 GW by 2040-2045 have slowed to perhaps 2-3 GW by 2030. Even if Japan is able to rely on nuclear for 20-22% of its electricity needs, decarbonization will be a long and bumpy road, with a likely dependence on LNG and other fossil fuel imports for long into the future.

Yuriy Humber is the founder of the Japan NRG platform, which provides regular information and analysis about the Japanese energy and power industry, markets, and policy. He is also a columnist on energy issues for the “Nikkei Asia” and co-author of an economic research report on Japan by the American Chamber of Commerce in Japan.

Ted Nordhaus Deconstructs Degrowth Oct 21, 2021

Show notes

I am joined by returning guest and co-founder of The Breakthrough Institute, Ted Nordhaus, to discuss degrowth as a proposed solution to climate change and other environmental issues.

Nordhaus has written forcefully against the idea of degrowth, which posits that growth in human populations and consumption levels will inevitably bring us to the brink of what this planet can sustain. The only way to avert catastrophe is to therefore reduce human populations and minimize consumption.

Nordhaus’s objections are epistemological as well as pragmatic. While degrowth risks stalling innovation and adaptation in the face of climate change, it is unclear that the proclaimed limits to human consumption (at the root of degrowth thought) are actually knowable or would even be met in the normal course of human development. Nordhaus points out the difficulty of defining the line between necessity and luxury, and argues that there is no actual science or evidence behind claims that we are approaching or have passed “planetary boundaries.”

Nordhaus emphasizes that he cares about the environment and other species, but that there are “non-apocalyptic reasons to protect nature.” As for what society should do to address the climate crisis and other environmental issues, Nordhaus offers a decision-making framework that acknowledges the vast uncertainties of any future scenario: Do more of the stuff that brings us in a direction we want to go, and less of the stuff that doesn’t.

To Nordhaus, foretelling disaster based on what he says are unscientific limits to growth is “an authoritarian claim” that at best leads to regressive policies and at worst creates self-fulfilling prophecies.

We go on to discuss the common use of WW2 as a metaphor for the scale of climate action needed, and contrast it with a Cold War metaphor that yields more technological optimism. Finally, we touch upon a concept near and dear to this podcast: decoupling.

Read Ted Nordhaus's commentary on Vaclav Smil here: https://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/must-growth-doom-the-planet

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