CLAREMONT: The Trial

Latest Episodes:

S2E46: Leather Gloves and Fingernails in Taxis Feb 17, 2020

Show notes

Two never-before-heard about leads police were following up on during the mammoth investigation were revealed to the court on day 46.

A leather glove which had been found near Jane Rimmer’s body when she was found in Wellard bushland on August 3, 1996, and two fingernail clippings which were found in a taxi.

Both were revealed during forensic scientist Aleks Bagdonavicius’ cross examination by defence lawyer Paul Yovich today.

At this stage it’s unclear whether the leather gloves will form part of the defence’s case, but as Tim Clarke explains in this episode of Claremont in Conversation, police sent the gloves off to be tested for blood.

We’ll have to wait to see if they ever come up again in the trial, or if like so many other pieces of evidence and statements in this trial, they could be left out in the open with no explanation.

What could form part of the defence’s case, however, was two tree branches which were found to have been cross contaminated with another victim’s DNA - completely unrelated to the Claremont case.

Murdoch University’s forensic DNA expert Brendan Chapman joins Natalie Bonjolo and Tim Clarke for day 46, taking us through Low Copy Number testing, almost every way cross contamination can occur and and how tiny traces of DNA can be found, even in the smallest of samples.

For more on the Claremont Serial Killings, head to thewest.com.au

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

S2E45: Debunking Case Myths Feb 14, 2020

Show notes

In this episode, Alison Fan tells us some of the theories she’s heard from friends, strangers and people attending the public gallery at court, as she and the team try and put some of those questions into context - some of which have come up in the trial and left open-ended, or not answered at all.

Such as the question raised earlier in the week, during evidence about Ciara Glennon's fingernails being sent to New Zealand - who’s female DNA contaminated the blank control samples which were sent with Ciara Glennon’s fingernails to New Zealand in 2003?

The female scientist who tested Ciara Glennon’s fingernails before they went to New Zealand took the stand today, but she wasn’t asked by the prosecution about contamination.

So we’re not any closer to finding out who that female DNA belonged to.

Natalie Bonjolo asks the question which many must be asking; those fingernail samples which were found to be contaminated by female DNA, which were AJM41 and AJM46 aren’t crucial to the prosecution’s case, so why do we care if they were contaminated?

In this episode, Tim Clarke explains why the prosecution is going through every minute detail - whether it seems important or not - and why the defence might find the contamination on those fingernails important.

The Claremont in Conversation podcast team talk myths, theories and yes, sometimes boredom in WA’s trial of the century on day 45.

If you have any questions for the podcast team, or any of their guests, send them in to claremontpodcast@wanews.com.au

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

S2E44: The Eureka Moment Feb 13, 2020

Show notes

In the last hour of day 44’s evidence, the prosecution began reading out statements from the former PathWest manager, senior DNA analyst Laurie Webb, who was sacked from his role in 2016 for breaching testing protocols and cutting corners.

He’s not giving evidence in court, and as Tim Clarke explained last week as he broke the story, it’s not likely we’ll find out why.

But what we did find out was that he was the person who had that ‘eureka moment’ - he was the person who, in 2009 entered the male DNA found from UK testing into WA’s DNA database and found a hit.

That DNA hit matched with a then-unsolved rape from 1995 - the Karrakatta rape.

As Tim Clarke has explained in the podcast, what it would have felt like to see that, a lead in one of WA’s most notorious unsolved crimes for more than a decade, would have been astounding.

We also heard in detail how those DNA samples made their way to the UK in the first place, taken in person by Laurie Webb, the samples never leaving his sight.

But the court heard for the first time that there was also DNA samples from another victim unrelated to the Claremont Serial Killings case that was being taken to the UK at the same time.

Join Emily Moulton, Tim Clarke and Natalie Bonjolo as they discuss the brief statements from Laurie Webb, as well as the completion of forensic scientist Aleks Bagdonavicius’ evidence-in-chief.

If you have any questions for the podcast team, or any of their guests, send them in to claremontpodcast@wanews.com.au, and for more coverage of the Claremont Serial Killings trial, head to thewest.com.au

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

S2E43: Newly Discovered Evidence Feb 12, 2020

Show notes

Around 17,000 people had their DNA tested during the largest and most expensive investigation in Australia’s history.

They included thousands of taxi drivers, MACRO Taskforce’s prime suspect Lance Williams and even the former mayor of Claremont.

But what we don’t know is if any Telstra workers were asked to give their DNA.

We probably won’t find out, because as Tim Clarke explains in this episode, unless something extraordinary happens, those 17,000 names won’t be released to the public.

This was revealed on Day 43 of the Claremont Serial Killings trial, which lasted just 10 minutes.

After two days of adjournment, the trial was delayed for another day as prosecutors asked for more time following the discovery of more than 400 documents relating to LCN testing on Ciara Glennon’s fingernails conducted by PathWest.

The delay will allow forensic scientist Aleks Bagdonavicius from PathWest to read through at 35-page statement he and the prosecution put together following the document discovery.

The prosecution also revealed 62 more pieces of evidence will be tendered as exhibits.

As Alison Fan explains, WA’s trial of the century has already been tipped to run for at least six months, possibly nine. How much time will these new exhibits put on the length of the already mammoth trial.

Alison joins Tim Clarke and Natalie Bonjolo as they discuss day 43.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

S2Bonus Episode: The Day a Teenager's Innocence was Taken Feb 11, 2020

Show notes

***WARNING: Distressing Content***

On February 11, 1995 a teenager’s life was changed forever. It was the night Bradley Robert Edwards brutally raped the 17-year-old, snatching her as she walked home after a night out with friends. The stuff of nightmares.

We can say this because Edwards' admitted the crime, pleading guilty to the horrific assault at Karrakatta Cemetery just weeks before his trial for rape and murder was due to start late last year.

In archived stories from The West Australian a year after the rape, the victim told journalist Ingrid Mansell she didn’t want to ruin her friends night, by forcing them to leave early, so she decided to make the 700 metre walk home.

That’s when Edwards grabbed her from behind, tied her hands together, put a hood over her head and carried her to his car where he tied her feet together before driving to Karrakatta Cemetery. Once there he dragged her into the bushes and raped her twice.

Claremont had already been reeling from the impact of the Birnies - the serial killer couple who abducted four of their five victims from the suburb in the 1980s, and a series of rapes and attempted rapes in the areas had residents in the affluent suburb on high alert.

This crime sent shock waves through the area.

The victim said she lived in fear other women would suffer a similar fate to her.

“I realised that unless they found (my attacker) straight away, the only way they would catch him would be if he offended again and I could not bear the thought of that happening to someone else,” she told The West Australian.

Then Sarah Spiers went missing.

Bradley Edwards has always denied killing Sarah Spiers, Jane Rimmer and Ciara Glennon.

John Townsend was The West Australian’s crime reporter at the time. As a guest on the podcast, John recalled speaking to police and the startling information he received shortly after Sarah Spiers disappeared.

His emotional description of his anger about the little or no information, or the wrong information sent out to the public at the time shows this case has stayed with him for more than 25 years.

Join John Townsend, Natalie Bonjolo and Tim Clarke for this extra episode during a brief court adjournment.

When court resumes, DNA evidence from forensic scientist Aleks Bagdonavicius will continue.

If you, or anyone you know has been affected by the content in this podcast, contact Lifeline on 13 11 14 or the Sexual Assault Resource Centre (SARC) on

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

S2E42: “Extremely Unsatisfactory” Feb 10, 2020

Show notes

Day 42 of the Claremont Serial Killings trial started with a revelation which immediately led to a delay of proceedings for at least two days.

That revelation was the discovery of more than 400 documents relating to testing of the crucial evidence - Ciara Glennon’s fingernails.

Prosecutor Carmel Barbagallo started off proceedings by admitting the blunder to the court, which Justice Hall called ‘extremely unsatisfactory’.

Ms Barbagallo revealed the documents were discovered during a briefing with PathWest witnesses ahead of their appliances, which was due to be this week. The defence received those documents just five minutes before court began.

Before the trial started, it was revealed there would be at least one million documents presented by the prosecution.

During preparation for the trial, Ms Barbagallo said PathWest found and scanned all of their documents relating to the case, but at least 400 were scanned and not sent to the defence, or never scanned at all. Both Justice Hall and defence lawyer Paul Yovich have asked PathWest for a statement explaining how it could have happened.

When court resumed in two days, forensic scientist Aleks Bagdonavicius will continue his evidence.

Joined by criminal defence lawyer Damien Cripps, who had some sympathetic words for the prosecution, Natalie Bonjolo, Tim Clarke and Alison Fan discuss what today's events mean for the trial moving forward, and debate whether it was in fact an unacceptable blunder, or just human error.

While court won’t be sitting, the podcast will continue, stay tuned for bonus episodes of Claremont in Conversation, and send in any questions you have from the trial so far to claremonpodcast@wanews.com.au

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

S2E41: A Gift for Ciara's Birthday Feb 07, 2020

Show notes

Just days before what would have been Ciara Glennon’s 28th birthday in November 1997, her grieving family were given a gift from A MACRO detective and pathologist Dr Karin Margolius - a bit of their daughter back. A lock of her hair.

Detectives on the case had become close to the families as the massive investigation spanned months, turning into years, and this - as it was with Jane Rimmer’s family - an act of compassion.

This act, however has somewhat divided our podcast team, with veteran 7NEWS reporter Alison Fan describing the act of signing out the hair mass for two days as ’bizarre’.

As forensic scientist Aleks Bagdonavicius finished his evidence today, he revealed a record, which showed one of the crucial DNA exhibits, Ciara Glennon’s left middle fingernail labelled AJM 42, had at some point between 2001 and 2003 been tested with results showing a ‘possible match for male DNA’. This had never been heard in court before.

The only time the court had previously been told of male DNA showing up in AJM42 was when it was sent to the UK for further testing - and only when it was joined with Ciara Glennon’s thumbnail, AJM 40, that it revealed a male DNA profile, which the prosecution says matched the male DNA found on the Karrakatta rape victim - Bradley Robert Edwards.

As the day’s proceedings came to a close on the final day of week nine, the prosecution listed the witnesses for the next week, and the witnesses they will call to complete the DNA portion of the trial.

One notable name which wasn’t mentioned was Laurie Webb - the PathWest manager who had a huge involvement in handling evidence from both Jane Rimmer and Ciara Glennon, as well as samples from the Karrakatta rape victim. He was sacked from PathWest in 2016 for cutting corners in his work.

The West Australian Legal Affairs editor Tim Clarke reveals the scoop he’s uncovered about why his name wasn’t mentioned in this episode of Claremont in Conversation.

You can also read Tim’s exclusive story at thewest.com.au.

If you have any questions for the podcast team, or any of their guests, send them in to claremontpodcast@wanews.com.au

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

S2E40: Another Woman’s DNA Feb 06, 2020

Show notes

The defence honed in on potential DNA contamination from samples sent to a lab in New Zealand on day 40 of WA’s trial of the century.

During cross examination, defence lawyer Paul Yovich pointed out to Dr SallyAnn Harbison, who was on the stand for a second day, that when testing Ciara Glennon’s fingernail samples, four blank control samples were found to be contaminated with another woman’s DNA.

Forensic DNA expert Brendan Chapman joins us for this episode, and as he explains, this isn’t a ‘blow’ for the prosecution, and that was because, although the court heard two fingernail samples AJM 41 and 46 had been affected by contamination and showed a woman’s DNA unrelated to the case - Dr Harbison said the crucial left middle fingernail - AJM 42, which the state says contained Bradley Edwards’ DNA - was not affected by the contamination.

Brendan helps the podcast team discuss contamination, DNA and even a bit of ancestry on episode 40, he also answers some of your complex DNA questions, which have come up during the trial and left us scratching our heads.

If you have any questions for Brendan or any of the podcast team and guests, send them in to claremontpodcast@wanews.com.au.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

S2E39: The Other Suspect's DNA Twist Feb 05, 2020

Show notes

Lance Williams was the main suspect as being the Claremont Serial Killer for 10 years, and today it was revealed scientists once believed they found a possible match between his hair and that found on the third victim, Ciara Glennon.

During his final day on the stand, retired forensic scientist Martin Blooms revealed in 2002, scientists did suspect a match had been made between the hair from Lance Williams and hairs found on Ciara Glennon’s body, following testing on Mr Williams hair after he was arrested.

Lance Williams was arrested in 1998 and interrogated by police for 17 hours.

Shortly after his arrest, Lance Williams voluntarily offered his DNA samples for testing,

He was placed under intense scrutiny by police, who openly followed him to and from work every day for years.

In 2002, they conducted the test, which at the time was designed to exclude suspects, but forms shown to the court on day 39 revealed at least one hair recovered from Ciara’s shirt as well as her skirt noted that it “possibly matched with Williams.”

Mr Williams admitted to driving around Claremont at night during 1996 and 1997 to look for lone women, but he insisted it was to offer them a safe way to get home - because three women had gone missing from the area.

Claremont in Conversation guest and veteran 7 News reporter Alison Fan interviewed Mr Williams in 2002, and said she came out of the interview convinced he was innocent, so much so she called the assistant commissioner of police to tell him what she thought.

It wasn’t until a decade after his arrest, that Lance Williams was officially no longer a suspect in the case.

He has since died, but was alive to hear someone else - Bradley Robert Edwards - was arrested and charged with the murders, which he denies.

But the day wasn’t all about Lance Williams, Mr Blooms was grilled by the defence about his involvement in the case, revealing that police asked he be taken off the case in 2003 - which The West’s Emily Moulton said received a sharp response, and tense moment with the prosecution.

With every detail from the last 23 years being pulled apart and analysed in WA’s trial of the century, the pressure and scrutiny is expected to only increase.

Join Natalie Bonjolo and Emily Moulton as they discuss day 39.

If you have any questions for the podcast team, or an of their guests, send them in to claremontpodcast@wanews.com.au.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

S2E38: Defending their Work Feb 04, 2020

Show notes

A former senior forensic scientist has defended his work practices in the 1990s, maintaining he never took shortcuts and followed the protocols of the time.

During day 38 of the Claremont Serial Killings trial, Martin Blooms rather cheekily said on the stand that DNA doesn’t ‘just fly around’ when asked whether there was any chance DNA samples from the Karrakatta rape victim could have come into contact with intimate samples from Ciara Glennon, both of which he tested.

The trial has previously heard there is no evidence to suggest Jane Rimmer and Ciara Glennon were sexually assaulted before their deaths, but Mr Blooms said there was no way to ever tell whether the women were raped, because decomposition and time had decayed any sperm or semen, if any existed in the first place.

In Episode 38 of the trial, Tim Clarke, Alison Fan and Natalie Bonjolo also discuss Mr Blooms evidence, how even in the 1990s, the lab technicians knew technology would only advance, so they took measures to ‘future-proof’ the exhibit, so they could be tested with technology that didn’t exist yet.

Also hear Alison Fan’s take the surprise appearance by WA’s police commissioner Chris Dawson in the public gallery the day before, and why a strong focus by the defence of a label could be an important piece of evidence.

For more coverage on WA’s trial of the century, head to thewest.com.au

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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