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Chief Future Officer: Mark Mesler, Archer Nov 15, 2023

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Chief Financial Officers now play a critical role in shaping corporate strategy and positioning organizations to meet future challenges. Bloomberg's monthly program, Chief Future Officer, profiles these leaders and explores the impact they're making on their companies and industries. This episode, hosted by Ed Ludlow, focuses on Archer CFO Mark Mesler. He's steering the aviation company's finances through the pre-revenue phase as it prepares to bring an eVTOL -- electric Vertical Takeoff and Landing aircraft -- to market in 2025, when the FAA has said it will begin to allow operation of these vehicles as air taxis.

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Bloomberg Surveillance: US Retail Sales Dip; Government Shutdown Threat Eases Nov 15, 2023

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Michelle Meyer, Mastercard Economics Institute North America Chief Economist, says October's slight drop in US retail sales doesn't take away from overall robust consumer spending. Diane Swonk, KPMG Chief Economist, details how the Fed will look to navigate a potential successful soft landing. Anastasia Amoroso, iCapital Chief Investment Strategist, says corporations could look to cut costs in 2024 if the Fed doesn't cut rates. Henrietta Treyz, Veda Partners Economic Policy Director, discusses an increasingly dysfunctional environment on Capitol Hill despite the passage of a stopgap funding bill. Jennifer Bartashus, Bloomberg Intelligence Senior Analyst, breaks down Target's better-than-expected 3Q earnings. Get the Bloomberg Surveillance newsletter, delivered every weekday. Sign up now: https://www.bloomberg.com/account/newsletters/surveillance Full transcript: This is the Bloomberg Surveillance Podcast. I'm Tom Keene, along with Jonathan Farrow and Lisa Abramowitz. Join us each day for insight from the best and economics, geopolitics, finance and investment. Subscribe to Bloomberg Surveillance on demand on Apple, Spotify and anywhere you get your podcasts, and always on Bloomberg dot Com, the Bloomberg Terminal, and the Bloomberg Business app. This is a joy what happens with young economists as you read their research and you go, oh, they're quite competent. Not long ago and far away, but a few years ago. That was Michelle Meyer absolutely owning the parsing of the American consumer. She worked for a small bank in Manhattan and is now Chief Economists North America from MasterCard Economics. You own the analysis I put you and Allen Zetner together. You own the analysis of the American consumer. Have we stopped spending? We clearly have not stop spending. Far from it, and think about the data this morning. It was an incredible combination of continued strength and retail spend, of rebound in Empire State manufacturing, which shows that there's still a need for more goods production, which is because consumers are still spending, and on top of that, you're getting some relief on the pricing side. So it's a really nice combination. I hate asking this question, and I'm stunned. It's my first time I've asked it. On November fifteenth, what's back to what's a holiday season look like? What's Black Friday? And then Black Monday and this and that? What does this retail madness did January look like? Well, it is a longer holiday season. We've learned that over the last few years, and it's a heavily promotional based holiday season, and part of that is because of the fact that there's so much demand out there to buy online. I mean, think about the numbers we just saw this morning. Our spending post numbers saw just over eight percent year of your growth in e commerce sales. So you know, you're seeing a consumer that is certainly exploring many different channels of spending, including online, and that creates a lot more opportunities for them to get products, and it also creates a lot more need for retailers to compete with these big moments in time where they offer promotions, and I think that's what's going to be indicative. So we'll learn a lot from the Black Friday period, and it's approaching very quickly. How sustainable is this combination of both robust retail sales and disinflation or even outright goods deflation. So I think you have to consider the different categories. I mean, when you looked at CPI yesterday, you certainly saw some categories like these big durable goods like your refrigerators back seeing some price declines. But for many other things, like many services, for example, you are still seeing some price increases. So part of the drop in prices for some of these goods simply reflects the fact that prices increased too much out of a pandemic because of supply chain issues, because of higher costs, and now it's reverting a bit more to something more normal, right, So that means in real terms you will see some support in terms of some of these items moving through. In nominal terms, you could see some move down in terms of overall spend. So it really depends on why inflation is moving, and that is a function of the type of product and how things evolved coming out of the pandemic. When you put it together, does this seem like a recipe for this goldilocks soft landing, or does this seem to paint the picture of a federal reserve that needs to do more and of an economy that has way too much momentum to really achieve the disinflation that a lot of people are baking into market evaluations. I think the data is shaping up in a way that's really favorable at the moment because you continue to have economic growth. Look at the third quarter GDP numbers, that was fairly broad based economic activity, not just consumers but also businesses investing inventories getting much more manageable and in stock So you know, things have been evolving remarkably well in terms of the real economy, taking out some of the excesses, labor market coasting into a litt bit of a slower trajectory for job growth, but still expansionary, while you get this relief on the inflation front. So how much of that is because of monetary policy, how much of that is because of the nature of the shock that we had initially, We'll see it's probably a bit of both. But it's evolving really quite quite nicely, and obviously exceeding many people's expectations. Out there. We talked about the interest expense and the debt and the deficit earlier with Mia mcguinnis. Let's talk about the average charge card is twenty five twenty six percent interest, migrating up now to twenty eight twenty nine percent interest. I find thirty percent to be almost criminal. But you people look at this daily, is that interest rate goes up, do we spend less? So what we're looking at overall is how monetary policy is transmitting into the economy broadly. So when you think about who's borrowing out there, there's companies that are borrowing in terms of the expansionary needs. There's consumers that are borrowing in terms of whether or not they want to buy a home or a big ticket item that might require some leverage. So higher interest rates are certainly transmitting into the economy. You can see it today with the retail sales number that's Mike just my friends. Around housing related items, furniture, some of these bigger ticket items that require debt. You are seeing some hit to those types suspending. So I think the high level of interest rates goes back to Lisa's point around how the FED is trying to calibrate this economy with some easing of real growth but still allowing inflation to come down. Okay, you're out of the game, but I'm going to ask you the game question here, which is what is your twelve months for to real GDP? Like, what's your twenty twenty You're talking to fancy people at MasterCard, and you know they don't want to charge cards. They want to know what Michelle Meyer thinks about the economy. What's your twenty twenty four real GDP call? So the good news is that we are I'm still in the game, and that we are still running at still absolutely that is who I am as a person, as an economist. When I look ahead, I mean this year we had an economy that ran above its underlying trend. So we're trending right now, given where GDP is for real growth somewhere between two point four percent right now in twenty twenty three. As we look ahead to twenty twenty four, we're probably going to see some moderation closer to the underlying trend growth rate of the economy closer to trend. Didn't answer, Ye's still in the game. I'm still I got to total go away. Michelle Meyer's MasterCard. There somewhere in the blur of the last four or five days through my small little brain, would somebody get Diane SWUNKA You know, I just said she has such a perspective different from three zip codes in New York, And I guess all of this is her academic work at the University of Michigan Longo. She's putting a penalty box there. At one point she was stealing signs from the Federal Reserve. Is I think it's a football joke there, Yeah, dian Swank understands Michigan's I guess in the penalty box, Diane Swank, is it free and clear? Is your own Powell not in the penalty box. I've asked this question four times, but with immense respect to your work and your holistic look at business data. Is it mission accomplished? Finally, for the FED, it's not mission accomplished because if that is still going to hold rates higher for longer. But we're done with right hikes and that's what we've been saying, and that's what we believe. That's the good news out there is that it does look like the soft landing is not only possible but probable. But the journey is not yet over, and the endurance part comes next, and that's what the FED is watching closely. They still expect to see growth below potential in order to have that soft landing occur. That's one of those technical things that consumers don't really like, because growth below potential is a rise in unemployment, which in fact we've already seen. Most of that rise we saw over the summer was because more people were looking for jobs, not because of mass layoffs than in October when we saw unemployment move up to three point nine percent, it was because we also saw the spillover effects of strikes as well. When I look at this economy and all the different narratives that are out there right now, the heart of the matter for me is fully employed America. Butter stop with what Austin Goolsby brilliantly said yesterday. Is a believer in a new productivity, a new regime of productivity that's going to make the job for everybody out there easier. Do you buy it? Well, we are seeing a major increase in productivity, and I think during the frenzy, the hiring frenzy that we saw, we know from ADP data that's locked at this more closely, many firms stopped hiring people. Then add on top of it the loss and hiring an educational attainment due to the pivot online itself. And now we're unwinding that and people are actually learning the jobs they have. Overlay that with innovation and technology and leveraging the technologies we were forced to use as we moved online, and you do get higher productivity growth, and that is helping to bring down inflation as well. The problem for most consumers, of course, is that the level of prices are still very high. And let's face it, you know, consumer sentiment hit its record high for University of Michigan Centiment Index in Chau two thousand. Yeah, I threw that in. Although I did go to Chicago too. They won the first Heisman Trophy right now with a lack of scandals, which a little better. Did you go to the Goldsby speech? I mean, you're such a hitter out there in Chicago? Did you darken the door for the Golsby speech? I wasn't at this one. I've been at many of them, and I'll be at one on December first with them. What about Hey, Dana speaking as well, what do you feel how do you kind of view the consumer here? We got some retail sales data today that came in a little bit better than expected, yet target, you know, still seeing some some challenges out there with the reported numbers, and of course we'll hear from Walmart tomorrow. What's what's your sense of the consumer out there? This is a consumer that shown remarkable endurance. Remember October is when the first student loans for about twenty three million student borrowers were due. Of course, they started paying those loans already in August while ahead of time, front running the interest accruing on those loans. But we know that student loan, your payments are going to crimp consumer spending. And I think what's also important is we're seeing the biggest trade offs everything within grocery stores. They're spending more at grocery stores than at restaurants during the month, and after adjusting for inflation, they're still spending more at grocery stores because it's really expensive after adjusting for inflation to go out to restaurants. That said, there's a lot of trade offs within that as well. Beef prices hit a record high during the month of October in that's due to the fact that we had all these droughts. That's in the herds, and I think, you know, the effects of those kinds of shocks are what really matter to consumers. And even as the FED is combating inflation the pace at which prices increase, many consumers who finally saw their wages level up only got to spend a moment in the sun before they were burned by inflation, and they're still playing catchup from those earlier increases exactly. So, you know, in terms of the consumer here we have the unemployment rate officially at three point nine percent. What do you think the FED would like to see that rate? Do they feel like it needs to drift a little bit higher before they get a sense that this economy really is cooling? Well, I hate to use the word like, because I think that's a little pejorative in this context. I think they think it needs to go a little above four percent in order to get the full derailing of inflation and to be able to really cut rates as we move into twenty twenty five. I think we're going to see rate cuts by the middle of twenty twenty four, but the descent on rates is going to be much less graduate much slower than the acent on rates, and I think that's very important to remember as well. The Center Reserve is really pretty pleased with the fact that so far until we had that October blip, which was by an external shock the strikes, that we were able to really see more people looking for jobs rather than layoffs contributing to unemployment, more data checks and all this turmoil, the vix goes to constructively bullish. We are higher above fourteen and now at fourteen point eight, a better VIX number off of yesterday. Dow up one hundred, SPX up sixteen points, doing better than call it nine o'clock, futures up four tenths of a percent, NASDAK up half a percent as well. We're with Diane's swank this morning of KPMG. Diane, my great theory is corporations are going to adapt and adjust. How do they adapt and adjust? Is it just going to be one expense reduction? You know, that's going to be a series of I think we're already seeing the adaption occur, and it's evolution more of a revolution than an evolution, and that is that after more than a decade of ulter low rates and some business models that were built entirely on ultra low rates still adapt to a more normal economy that has higher rates to it, and they have to deal with the higher wage levels that they leveled up to, and that means they got to make their workers more productive to be able to continue paying those wages without mass layoffs. And that's where I think we're going. I think we are going to see productivity growth continue to be elevated. That's the good news. I think also it's important to remember the tire meets the road on productivity growth when you combine innovation and technology with our human capital, and how valuable it is. When you really level the boats together two together, that's when you get the big benefits. Sure theory there is how the Cubs stole the Milwaukee Brewer's managers. I mean you get that. She's like consulting the Chicago Cubs. How do we jump started Creid Council bring them down to Chicago? Paul slip in one more? All right, So, Diane, I mean we have our President Biden in San Francisco meeting with President she. How do you figure China into your economic outlook here? What do y…

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Bloomberg Surveillance: Cooling US Price Pressures; Looming Government Shutdown Nov 14, 2023

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Jay Bryson, Wells Fargo Chief Economist, and David Kelly, JPMorgan Asset Management Chief Global Strategist, break down October's US CPI report that shows a steady easing in inflation. Liz Suzuki, Bank of America Securities Analyst, says consumers are relying on excess savings amid the discomfort of higher rates. Greg Valliere, AGF Investments Chief US Policy Strategist, expects Congress to pass a government funding bill and avert a shutdown. Get the Bloomberg Surveillance newsletter, delivered every weekday. Sign up now: https://www.bloomberg.com/account/newsletters/surveillance Full transcript:I'm Tom Keene, along with Jonathan Farrow and Lisa Abramowitz. Join us each day for insight from the best and economics, geopolitics, finance, and investment. Subscribe to Bloomberg Surveillance on demand on Apple, Well, Spotify and anywhere you get your podcasts, and always on Bloomberg dot com, the Bloomberg Terminal and the Bloomberg Business App. Is the Fed Done? Is this basically what we're looking at right now? The all clear sign for the Federal Reserve to have to do more. Jay Brison, Chief Economist, it W Wells Fargo joining US. Now I ask that to you, Jay, does this sound the all clear for the FED? It does for right now, Lisa. I mean, you know, these numbers are going to bounce around on a month by month basis. You know, I wouldn't. Our view is that the FED probably is done. But I don't expect FED officials to be coming out just because of this one report saying oh it's all clear, everything's great out there. I mean, I think they're still going to continue to be biased to potentially tightening. We don't think that will happen, but you know, in the next few months, these numbers kind of reverse and they kind of pop up, and the economy expands at a stronger unexpected rate, you could potentially see them going But again, I think that's a that's a high bar at this point. This adds to signs that there is some sort of cool and this is the reason why so many people are talking about a soft landings. You haven't seen the real cracks you'd expect ahead of a massive recession. Jay, do you think that is an accurate categorization of exactly what we're seeing with prices not going up as much as people had expected. Yeah, I think that's right, you know. I mean, if we were still clipping along at a year over year rate on the core of a five percent, we'd be talking about the Fed hiking even more. And when you start to hike even more, that's when you have the problems. So, you know, so the potential for a soft landing is still there. I guess what I'm a little bit still watching and concerned about is that the real FED funds, right, you know, the nominal rate minus some sort of inflation rate continues to drift higher, and that's what matters for the real economy. And so I think the Fed is going to delay easing at this point, and so we may or may not have a downturn early next year, but I think the next few quarters because monetary policy is going to remain restrictive. I think you're looking at headwinds on xanomic growth. Is it mission accomplished? There's a comedy to that, a painful comedy for our geopolitics, our history, Doctor Bryson. What are we getting to a transitory point where this Federal Reserve can say mission accomplished? Well, again, Tom, I don't think they're going to come out and say that right at this point. But you know what I would say is the bar for further rate hikes is getting higher and higher at this point. Many of the members on the FOMC think they have done enough at this point, and you know, today's rally and the tenure notwithstanding, you know, we still have seen you know, relatively high long term rates and so there's a fair amount of headwinds on the economy right now. Again, they're not going to come out and say mission accomplished right now. They need to see a few more months of this before I think they feel confident in that this is certainly a good start in that journey. But I still think, you see, you need to see a few more months of point two's before they say accomplished. Lisa, the mission accomplished December twelfth a CPI report before a December thirteenth FED meeting, and or just to really echo what Jay was talking about that the bar is getting higher and higher for them to go again, evidently the bar is getting a bit lower for them to cut rates. FED dated swaps are now pricing in the first twenty five basis point cut for June versus July. Before we got this print, Jay, there is this issue of what we're going back to. Are we seeing a fast enough pace of disinflation to believe that two percent is very much in the horizon. You and your team have been excellent about the last mile of getting inflation down from three percent to two percent? How far along that process are we? So, you know, I don't have the numbers here in front of me, Lisa, but you know, I think if you look at the three month annualized change in the core, we're probably at three and a half percent right now. So if you want to get back down to two, I mean, what you need is you need a few months of point twos and even point one to kind of get you there. And I'd think we're still looking at a number of months for that. We don't think we're going to be looking at that sort of number until the second half of twenty twenty four. But I don't know if you necessarily need to be two percent annualized for a few months before the FED cuts. I mean, they're going to be looking forward, right and if they are confident that things are really going to slow down, then they could start to cut rates, you know, maybe summer or so of next year, Doctor Bryson, thank you so much. The chief economist of Will's Frogo Ja Brison, David Kelly, will adjust. He's chief Global Strategists at JP Morgan Asset Management. With his years at Putnam knows when the facts change, he will change. David Kelly, how does your analysis change with this shock report? Yeah, so this this report is actually very close to who we're looking for here. As we're tracing as inflation, we can see right down to below two percent on the consumption deflator by the fourth court of next year. I think what's really important about this report is there's a large camp of people who say that the last mile is sticky, getting from three to two is sticky, and we don't see that at all. We're going to step down inflation all the way through the fourth court of next year. And what I think this report is showing is across the board, there's disinflation in the US economy and we're heading back to two percent. So I think that is gradually changing in the minds of the markets. I think that's why you've seen this move here, although it's not necessarily coming with paying David, and this goes to the soft landing Nirvana that Neil Dotta was talking about, that real average hourly earnings increased by zero point eight percent, up from zero point five percent. People's earnings are exceeding at the pace of inflation and in a material way for the first time in a long time. How much does that lead to a stickiness because people have the means to keep paying the prices. I don't think so, because I mean, we've had periods of positive real wage growth before. But what I'm saying looking at the earnings reports from the last quarter is companies are very focused on holding earnings in check. Now, yes, you can say that today's earnings are higher than inflation, but from a worker's perspective, they're not even getting catch up from all the inflation they saw over the last two years. So what you're seeing is partial compensation for previous inflation. But I don't see a lot of evidence that companies are being able to push higher prices the workers being able to push higher wages. So overall, I think what we're seeing we're not seeing a price wage spiral. We're seeing a price wage slinky. They're both gradually coming down the stairs slowly. I think this is just going to continue all the wage two percent, and there's a question mark around Yes, this is definitely good for bonds and you're seeing that rally in a massive way today. Is this necessarily good for stocks over the longer term if it is accompanied with a cooling in the economy. Yeah, I think it is. Now. There are things that could go wrong, and there's certainly parts of the stock market that are overpriced, but I think what's happening is work turning to where we were ten years ago. We're turning to an economy with two percent inflation, very slow growth. That low inflation can allow for lower long term interest rates, which supports all asci prises, bonds and stocks alike. And of course stocks are the ultimate long duration asset, so they will benefit from this lower rate environment. So, you know, soft landings never last forever. They'll eventually the rote and we'll fall into recession. But for right now, this does really show that inflation is steadily coming down, and we've just got to we've got to recognize that's going on. Regardless of Fed officials who occasionally say that we're not there yet or tour into declare victory. Look, I'm willing to say we're going to win this thing. It looks very very likely they're going to win this. In Invation down to two percent by the end of next year, Small Stacks Russell up four percent, NASDAK up one point eight percent, though Nasdaq one hundred, I should say Dow lags up one point one percent, Standard Impores five hundred, up fifty, up fifty five, up sixty, and now up sixty three points one point five percent. Doctor Kelly, I want to sum this up to the angst that Lisa Brambo Bramo Wit says on our nation's debt. If we get inflation down, if we have a successful FED, does that give you confidence that we can have in long term our minus G relationship, our minus G equation, that will mean our debt and deficit is of less fear a little bit. I mean, it's still what you're basically saying is we can service this debt at cheaper prices no matter how large it is. Yes, we can to an extent, But I think the amount of debt we've piled up in recent years is going to mean permanently higher loge of interest rates experienced ten years ago, so that that problem is going to be around for a while unfortunately, I see no evidence that there's any consensus in Washington about doing anything about it about it, so I'm still worried about poppulism. Left of the right just pushing these depths its higher and higher in the years ahead. Doctor Kelly, thank us so much, David Kelly, JP Morgan joining US unapplied mathematics of big box retail. Elizabeth Suzuki joins US at Bank of America Securities. When you were going through polynomials and you know, doing ferrisproof and all that and applied manth, you think you'd be an aisle four at home depot. I did not. I never thought that my work was going to include channel check at stores that I just go to anyway. In fact, now you know, as a homeowner for the last you know, six years, I'm in home depot pretty much every weekend, maybe every other weekend. But I mean it just never stopped. Wonderful. I've never been to the one downstairs Ferrell's down there once a week picking up something. Let me cut to the chase, which is the new post pandemic home depot world and for other big box as well. Can they fix the problem on the income statement? Can they take out expenses like Disney or you name the bank. Sure, you know, I wouldn't really categorize it as a problem on the income statement. When we think about what Home Depot is going to do this year in terms of sales, they're probably going to end up about fifty percent higher than they were in twenty nineteen. And just putting that in context of the broader industry, which is tracking up about like twenty percent versus twenty nineteen levels, that's an amazing amount of market share that Home Depot has been able to take. I mean, we're coming down off of these very very high levels of spend. During the pandemic. Homeowners had you know, easy rates to be able to borrow against. They also had you know, stimulus money to spend. They were moving at much higher frequency. A lot of people moved out to the suburbs during the pandemic. I mean, we've seen a slowdown in that, and you know, I think what's been surprising this year to the downside and just where we've seen that pressure on the top line is really mostly from housing turnover basically coming to a standstill, you know, so as as we expect. Yeah, so I think, you know, as as rates start to moderate or potentially even come down, maybe towards the second half of next year, I think that's going to help spur that housing turnover again and we're going to see more of a return to normalization in terms of that top line salesca Given what mortgage rates are, do you really think we can normalize the fact that some people just locked in their homes with the two three percent mortgage you just aren't moving anytime soon. Yeah, you know. I think it's like once rates really stabilize, maybe come down a tick, you know, a couple of rate cuts, potentially in the second half of next year, then you know the homeowner is saying, okay, like rates are probably not continuing to go up, I can potentially refinance. If I were to move today, I'm locking in a rate that's higher than what I wanted. But I feel like there's some potential for that to come down over time, and maybe it means that people buy a house that's a little bit smaller than what they wanted, or it means that you know, some people who are moving and you know, are going to have to absorb a higher rate. But because households have such high levels of savings they actually can absorb that. It's just it is uncomfortable, right So right now we're feeling that discomfort in terms of existing home sales, which are the lowest they've been in thirteen years. How much does home tapot rely on the housing market versus the fact that people aren't moving they are buying new refrigerators I'm just saying, or they're buying new stoves or new microwaves or other items in the house that might break. I mean at a certain point, does that actually help these companies? Yeah, I mean the sector is not as sensitive to housing turnover as one might think. I mean, when you're seeing these negative data points on housing every day, and if you already have sort of a negative bias, each one of those data points just kind of confirms your bias and you're going to say, of course, things are terrible right now. So what we've done is we tried to look at basically every macro factor you possibly could. And this is really where that applied mathematics comes into play. As we built a proprietary indicator of home improvement demand and we narrowed it down to fourteen different factors that are reported monthly that we can correlate to Home Depot and Low same store sales growth. At the end of the day, that's pretty much what drives these stocks is same store sales growth. So we narrowed it down to these fourteen factors, we built an indicator off of it, and then that indicator helps inform our views where we don't have to be dependent on the company's guidance, we don't have to be dependent on third party forecasts. Like we're able to actually look at the factors that matter, and then months to month we can track each of those factors and not get distracted by the noise that we hear in a lot of these other data correlated as Home Depot to some of the other retailers that are not…

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Bloomberg Surveillance: Gauging a Growth Slowdown Nov 13, 2023

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Thomas Kennedy, JP Morgan Private Bank Chief Investment Strategist, expects a growth slowdown in the US amid a decline in excess savings. Christian Scherer, Airbus Chief Commercial Officer, says the company is in an undersupplied situation coming out of the pandemic with high numbers of aircraft orders. Claudia Sahm, Sahm Consulting Founder, says the US is now closer to a recession than earlier this year. Toto Wolff, Mercedes AMG Petronas CEO, previews this weekend's first-ever Las Vegas Grand Prix. Jon Lieber, Eurasia Group United States Managing Director, says that both political parties are aligned on avoiding a government shutdown. Get the Bloomberg Surveillance newsletter, delivered every weekday. Sign up now: https://www.bloomberg.com/account/newsletters/surveillance Full transcript: This is the Bloomberg Surveillance Podcast. I'm Tom Keene, along with Jonathan Farrow and Lisa Abramowitz. Join us each day for insight from the best and economics, geopolitics, finance and investment. Subscribe to Bloomberg Surveillance on demand on a Spotify and anywhere you get your podcasts, and always on Bloomberg dot Com, the Bloomberg Terminal, and the Bloomberg Business App. What we do here is we have smart guests like Will Kennedy, just joining us at Queen Victoria Street in London on oil and now joining us his compatriot in Irish crime. Thomas Kennedy joins his chief investment strategist at JP Morgan. One Kennedy to another, and you linked it when you sat down and you looked at Will Kennedy's world and says, when the price of oil moves, you see in chases, charge card juggernaut reaction, what do you observes oil comes down? Yeah, we saw change in the way the consumer was reacting to higher oil prices around August September area in our Chase credit card day. To remember, we're banking about twenty percent of America, and what we saw there was a nice plug nailed deck when gasoline prices rose. You actually saw a discretionary spending go down. Now, Tommy might be saying, well, of course you're going to see that. Right, prior to August and September, in the post COVID era, we did not see that relationship. It suggests the excess savings in America might actually be depleting after how many quarters of negotiating on it, right, and then when we really dig into the accounts of these folks, and we do it in anymous anonymous fashion, about half of America looks like they're out of excess. If you're missing words up, it's okay. You're sitting on the side of the table where we do that routinely. You know, I'm looking Time Kennedy at the polarity between Morgan Stanley and Golden Sachs today. You need the leadership or Bruce chast and Michael Faroli to give you an economic backdrop. What's your economic backdrop that forms your outlook call this year? Yeah, we're expecting a growth slow down pretty much like the less rest of Wall Street at this point, and it is relatively simple and intuitive. You have the cost of capital above expected revenue in this economy, and if you think about America as one big business, it's very odd to see the cost of capital to be above expected GDP. It should force investors to say, maybe I'll just save instead of borrow money and invest in my business. We've seen this four or five times in the last forty years, just about every time you see a growth slowdown, tom So we should expect that to happen. The question becomes what's the scenarios where it doesn't happen? And in those scenarios you have one where either the consumer is much more resilient and they have access to borrowing, and you're going to see growth come higher or something breaks in the meantime. Those are pretty dynamic and polarizing outcomes in the future. Everything you set up until then, though said, by the ten year go along the curve. Look in some of this yield. Is that right? Yeah? I think it has to be. John. You have at this point a municipal bond that is giving you equity like yields, and for the first time in twenty years, it is actually competing with the earning yield on the s and P five hundred. For my clients that are gathering wealth for generations, I can show them something that has near zero default risk and you can get equity like yields. Is their risk to that, of course there is, But that's a dynamic that they haven't seen in two decades. And now I can start to reposition some of their portfolio and they say, Thomas, I'm nervous. I'm seeing yields all over the place. Are they reluctant to buy even at these rates? Even after you tell that story, it's a reluctant still to buy it. In our data for the last twelve months, this has been the trade that people have been excited about and can get invested in. That doesn't mean it's not without angst. When we saw a five year tax free yields show up two weeks ago, that dynamic changed five percent tax free for people in New York City, where we're sitting. Guys got to buy a taxable bond above ten percent to get an equal return, So the behavioral experience for them did change there. I think as a market prognosticator makes you say, well, how high can rates really go before we're going to see that crowding out effect of high yields. One of the mysteries of this year has been what the main driving force in yields has been. Is it the economy? Is it inflation? Is it the politics or the fiscal backdrop? This is going to be a really interesting test. What do you think is going to be most important with respect to market volatility? Of all the things that are going to happen this week, the FED expected out look for the FED. You can explain more than three quarters of all the movement and rates just from those two things. Where the FED is and where you expect them to be in a year's time. In the last couple of months you have seen I would call it supply of treasuries become a little bit more of a factor, but not dominant at this point, Lisa. So as we look ahead, what's going to matter the slowdown? How big of a slowdown is it? And importantly, what will the Fed's reaction function be. You said that half of America's are half of America is pretty much out of savings based on your data, Yeah, which half, right? I mean? Is this the half that has been spending more aggressively and will continue to if they had the money, or is this a half that is particular in the economy? Right? I mean we're talking about the two Americas. We've got a lot of Americas and they're moving at different speeds. Yeah, the two America's theme really resonates for me. But the folks that are out of excess savings at the bottom half of America, and those are todaytionally the ones that don't have excess savings. So now they have a decision to make. They can either slow consumption or try to turn to their credit card at a time when credit card rates are historically punitive, even when you normalize them for where interest rates are or base rates from the FED. So I think the slow down metrics makes sense when your highest marginal propensity to consume folks are running out of their excess savings. Really sharp article this weekend of the millions of Americans. They don't own Apple, they don't own Nvidio, Microsoft, they missed the boat and they got a two to oh one k. They walk into JP Morgan Chase this morning with a disastrous portfolio. They're miserable. How do you approach the active versus passive retirement debate? I think at this point in the cycle time, active is going to make the most sense in that when you're looking at a passive allocation, even to the equity market, the haves and have nots are there. On the one hand, you have, say Tech in the equity market that has gone through its optimization of its balance sheet. Layoffs in the tech sector have been big in the last twelve months. Capex is now getting turned back on around AI and the monetization phase is not going to be that long. Microsoft, as an example, three percent of their revenues are coming from AI already. Meanwhile, you move to small and midcaps, and these are the most interest rate sensitive sectors and they have debt to EBITDA two to five times. They are going to feel this pain more than big tech. So in the equity market as an example, active management I think makes sense as a headline early cycles when you rotate back two more passive ideas, and that's not where we are right now. So in the minds of money, late cycle is where people think we are right now. I think it's a muddel and I'm really fascinated by the outlooks. I meantime, Kennedy's going to put together thirty four page outlook I have a rule I read the first must this time of the year where it's difficult to sort of get beyond next week to put something out for the next twelve months. How hot is that? I think it's difficult when you're trying to do it at the end of a cycle. The FED has just done the most aggressive rate hiking cycle we've seen. And where are you? Are you in the muddle through? Are you in the late cycle? Are you in the end cycle? That's the hardest part. But to be able to turn to your client and say to them, I can show you equity like yields and fixed income it's a way to buy some time and get some good yield in a portfolio. Pro tip more charts tip David malpassed a Bears Turns years ago. Went in doubt. Saw that from David costin effort goalman. This morning it was gone through his outlook. He's just full of chance and tables. Thomas, this is great. He's going to see it some kind of do that of JP Mulkin prims a bank. Guy Johnson is expert at the development of jets, the crafts that we fly every day, and he knows the Christian Sharer Bleeds Airbus share grew up in to Lose France. He's been part of Airbus Way way Back for many many years and he is now the CCO of the great European airplane builder. Guy Johnson in Dubai, gud good morning, Good morning, Tom King, All good evening. The sun's setting on day one of the Dubai Air Show, and as you say, it has been a big one. We've seen some significant orders, some promise of even more still to come, and as you say, the wide body market feels like it is back. Over the last few years, this has been all about narrowbodies. The recovery out of the pandemic driven by the narrow bodies. Now it's the big workhorses of the sky, their time to shine. Let's talk to Christian Sharer, as you say, the chief commercial officer at Airbus. If you want to know what's happening in this industry, here is the guy to talk to. Christian. Nice to see you, Thanks for making some time for us. Look, the world at the moment feels like we've got a lot of geopolitical tension. We've got a lot of uncertainty. We've got a lot of economic uncertainty as well. Rates have been jacked up, economies are slowing down. Yet it doesn't feel like it at this show, huge orders across the peace in terms of what we're seeing from airlines from around the world. Why the disconnect, I wouldn't say it's a disconnect. You know, an order at an air show is I wouldn't say anecdotal, but it's being very much highlighted because it's an air show. You will will have seen that this year alone, there's been lots of orders in particular with us at Airbus, well before the air show. During the air show, there'll be orders after the air show, So it isn't like an incredible peak all of a sudden, It's part of a phenomenon. The airshow is building for a while though. This is a kind of moment in time when you can take stock. As you say, you're about to sign a very large order with Turkish Airlines, a huge order, a lot of arrow bodies in there, but a lot of wide bodies as well. This feels like a moment in time just to reflect on what is happening, and it feels like demand from the customer is still very strong. Demand within the industry is very strong. They've watched what happens with the narrow bodies and then they've sold out. Now these guys want to make sure that they've got their slots. What is driving this demand, What gives the industry this confidence probably the act guy that we're seemingly in an under a supply situation again, so there's a lot of jockeying for delivery positions. You don't want to miss the train. Just a few years ago, in the midst of the pandemic, remember we manufactures were asked to slash our production by roughly fifty percent, So it takes time. There's a lot of industrial inertia to rebuild an industrial system that's capable of producing large numbers of white body airplanes, and so they don't come in large numbers. So you don't want to miss the train. You study the numbers very carefully. If I look at what's happening with discretionary spend at the moment I listened to LVMH or Reach Moore or the Azure, they're talking about that sort of high end discretionary spend beginning to roll over. And do you think that happens in aviation or do you think the lesson from the pandemic is? Do you know what? I won't have the Cognac, I won't have the Cartier watch, but I will have the airfat I think the letter is true. I think an air trip is no longer a luxury per se. It is part of discretionary consumer spending. It's probably a the top of the list. I would think that the recent behavior that we've seen, beyond the obvious phenomenon of pent up demand coming loose after the pandemic, I believe that the consumer will tend to go enjoy himself, yourself, visit, visit friend's family before they buy an expensive watch in terms of kind of what happens next. Do you see this demand being sustainable? Do you talk about the fact that the esshow shouldn't just be how we perceive what's going on? You see this as big a sustainable story. Now you think white body demand is back. Where in the cycle do you think we are. I'm not sure we can talk about cycles as much as we used to anymore. So I do believe fundamentally it's sustainable. Our studies are telling us that we will see continue growth in air travel, including in wide body air travel, a little bit less perhaps than before the pandemic, or irrespective of the pandemic, because of the inflationary pressures, increases in fuel prices, et cetera, et cetera. You mentioned it, But we do see sustained demand, including on intercontinental travel, and we do see on the large aircraft where fuel burn in particular and technology plays the biggest part, increased demand to replace all the airplanes. So there's more replacement in the years ahead than there was before. You talk about inflation, What are you building into these contracts? You're selling airplanes five ten years down the road. Inflation is running hot right now? How are you building that into your contracts? How much are you building into that contracts? How important when you sign a contract is that escalation tools. That's a really good question, and that is a subject of finding the right balance of how you share that risk of inflation with the customer, the airline that is making a purchase decision many years in advance, typically a guy. What we do is we index our pricing on indices of material costs and labor costs. Those are US industries, those are most mature indices that exists in this industry. So we index that and then if it's a discussion depending on how far out the airplane is being ordered for, that's a discussion of how we share that risk, that inflationary risk with our customer. You're going to be able to build all these airplanes. I spoke to Gail a few days ago CEO. He was talking to me about going from nine to ten on the three point fifty program. If this demand continues, do you have to go ten to eleven, eleven to twelve, twelve to…

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Introducing: Elon, Inc. Nov 11, 2023

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At Bloomberg, we’re always talking about the biggest business stories, and no one is bigger than Elon Musk.

In this new chat weekly show, host David Papadopoulos and a panel of guests including Businessweek’s Max Chafkin, Tesla reporter Dana Hull, Big Tech editor Sarah Frier, and more, will break down the most important stories on Musk and his empire. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

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Bloomberg Surveillance: Fed Warns, Stocks Retreat Nov 10, 2023

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Kathy Jones, Charles Schwab Chief Fixed Income Strategist, says the markets need conviction that the Fed is done hiking rates. Annmarie Hordern, Bloomberg Editorial Chief Washington Correspondent, breaks down new election polling from Bloomberg/Morning Consult. Christian Horner, Oracle Red Bull Racing Team Principal & CEO, talks Oracle Red Bull Racing's dominance and previews the Las Vegas Grand Prix. Troy Gayeski, FS Investments Chief Market Strategist, remains in the higher-for-longer camp despite the resilience of the US economy. Doug Kass, Seabreeze Partners President, details his market view and why he says, ‘it’s not whether I should be short, it’s how short I should be.’
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Surveillance: Streaming Consolidation and Disney Earnings Nov 09, 2023

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Julian Emanuel, Evercore ISI Chief Equity & Quantitative Strategist, expects consolidation in the streaming industry in the coming years. Greg Valliere, AGF Investments Chief US Policy Strategist, discusses the third Republican primary debate. Cameron Dawson, Newedge Wealth Chief Investment Officer, says it's too early to know if the uplift in unemployment will barrel higher into next year. Geetha Ranganathan, Bloomberg Intelligence US Media Analyst, breaks down Disney's better-than-expected 4Q earnings. Ellen Wald, Atlantic Council Senior Fellow, discusses the global oil market as crude prices remain low.Get the Bloomberg Surveillance newsletter, delivered every weekday. Sign up now: https://www.bloomberg.com/account/newsletters/surveillance Full transcript: I'm Tom Keene, along with Jonathan Farrow and Lisa Abramowitz. Join us each day for insight from the best and economics, geopolitics, finance and investment. Subscribe to Bloomberg Surveillance on demand on app, Spotify and anywhere you get your podcasts, and always on Bloomberg dot Com, the Bloomberg Terminal, and the Bloomberg Business App. Jitting a manuel jointed to surround a table Chief Equity just over at evercor SI jitting Good mornings here, Good morning. Have you been participating in this wonderful, beautiful thing that is an eight day winning streak. Yeah, we have, you know, several weeks ago we just felt that when you backed off of that five percent yield, And I know we've been talking about it, but it is the fact that in this world now for the last year and a half, where stocks and bonds have been positive correlated, if bond yields go down, stocks go up, and backing off of five percent was huge for the psychology. And now we've got this unexpected oil price plunge, which is even bigger for Cheryl, I'm with you. Those two points yesterday stood out for me. Break a four to fifty on a ten year break of eighty on Brent crude. At what point do these correlations start to break the other way? What brings up hot that change? Well, we are watching that very closely. And guess what, the high frequency data is really important because that chart you were talking about a few moments ago, with the unemployment rate rising from three to four to three nine in the past, when that starts to happen, it tends to snowball. But where we're going to get the initial read on that is that eight thirty jobless claims number starts edging over two hundred and fifty thousand, we get a little bit cautious. Three hundred thousand is where we know the economy is going to turn down. I'm supposed to fold in now A question on Ed Hyman's Hicksy and Islm theory and his disinflation theory into your stock babble, forget about it. I love the single sentence you have which pushes against all that malarkey by saying price is paramount. Right now, when you talk to Ed Hyman, how does a respond to you telling them your economics doesn't matter, price is paramount. I'll tell you how five weeks ago Ed Heyman started putting out in almost daily the act that gasoline lean prices started falling as the conflict was erupting. You already had the turn in gasoline prices completely, you know, devoid of real sort of prosperity with Hymen's disinflationary tendency or outright deflation in China. Look, if you look at the last fifteen years, you've had episodic times of that from again. Obviously the financial crisis is one of those times. But ultimately what it comes back to again for equity investors, for bond investors. First of all, the whole idea of getting a real return on money in this world now is actually a positive for financial assets. It's a positive for capital allocation, and long term, it's a positive for growth. And that's you know, that's part of the equity investing mindset. Do you need a long term view right now or do you just trade the short term. It's really difficult to have a long term view because of what we're talking about the inflection in the economy potentially happening. But if you take the super long term view, is that even if you get the recession that Ed's thinking we're going to get, that it's going to be mild in twenty twenty four. What you're left with is a labor market that has rebalanced. What you're left with is again a real cost of money, better capital allocation, and frankly, we've talked about this before, you have new technological developments like generative AI that is going to improve the productivity of corporate America over the long term. One of the main frustrations of this year was that pretty much everything everyone said at the beginning of the year has proven to be wrong, including that this would be the year that tech stocks would fade more meaningfully and you start to see a broadening out in the rally. Energy stocks would start to be the true leaders. You just actually moved away from an overweight and energy and are talking more about generative AI. It seems like the theme just keeps on being that the leaders will keep leading. Everything else will just have to figure out where they fit in. Well, look, again, the recession will probably, you know, to the extent that it does arrive in the next twelve months or so, rationalize some of this, but ultimately what it's going to do, and look, part of the consternation on equity investors' minds is the fact that the Russell two thousand is making new lows. Ultimately, you're going to get to a point where there will be an attractive price for the other four hundred and ninety three stocks away from the Magnificent seven, and you will get to an earnings reset. We think that's part of next year's narrative. This is the difficult question I think people have got to confront at the moment. Do I want to buy the recovery to the recession I've not had yet, given the damage we've seen in the small camps. You can pick up various places to back up the consumer discretionary story. Allines, for instance, which have come way off the peak back of the summer. Do I want to start picking up the pieces going into what could be a slow down next year. We think you need to be balanced. It's one of those things where again, given the lack of visibility into next year, what we always say, we've had a very nice run in recent weeks, and if you go back over the last year, it's been a very nice run off the October lows. You need to be comfortable with the fact that if the market comes in ten or fifteen percent, which it does in any typical year, as it did several weeks ago, that you're a buyer of the dips and whatever that asset allocation is to you. That's the kind of discipline you need to employ. Goldman speak to this as well. We've gone through their note this morning a few times. It's worth doing it again. The hard part's over. More disinflation is in store over the next year. On growth, they see limited risk of a recession, and they say this on central bank policy. Then this is a really really interesting point. An increased willingness of central banks to deliver insurance cuts it grows slows. Earlier this week, Ben later on this program of E Toro, was saying the FED put was back. Lisa and I looked at each other and almost spat out our water. The FED put is back insures cuts of growth slows. Is the old fetch story returning? No? Why are they wrong? No? Look, because there is an assumption that there is a reflex reaction to a minus GDP quarter. Thankfully we didn't see it in twenty twenty two when we had that, because if you had interrupted the rate hiking program, you wouldn't have gotten to where you are. And you can argue both sides of this case, but frankly, for US, there is a commitment, given the fact that core PCE is still solidly with a three handle, that you just can't go down that road unless it really looks like there's a severe economic downturn. And we still think there's enough savings left over so that won't be the case. Judy and awesome as a was Emmanuel have et a court joining us now to brief off the GOP debate. Last night, Gregory Vliate, US policy strategist at AGF Investments. Gregory stood on the floor of the GOP convention of two thousand and four, and it was a different Republican Party. George Bush Junior wanted a more hopeful America. What's going to be that slogan this summer for the Republicans? Well, I think they'll emphasize the economy. They'll state that Biden has not done a good job. Frankly I would disagree, but I think that they'll make it more about the economy than anything else. The really intriguing issues are abortion number one, number two. How much more involved are we going to get in Ukraine and Israel? What about the idea that they're losing elections, not doing as well in certain elections. It going to be the mix of that we just saw it can be from a year ago, November, etc. How do they start winning again? Well, I don't think you talk like Ramaswami. I think he talked himself off the boat last night. I don't see much of a future for him. Probably not much of a future for Tim Scott. So it's dwindling. You've really only got three challengers. DeSantis, who was okay last night but made a strategic error he didn't mention the governor of Iowa had endorsed him. I can't believe he didn't talk about that. And then you've got Nicky Haley. He'll stick around for a while, maybe Chris Christy, but we'll begin at twenty twenty four. I think with just two challengers to Trump, that would be DeSantis and Haley. Do you think either of them have a chance of taking Trump off the ticket? Who would either of them? Oh? No, not at all. I mean Trump would have to do something really egregious, and he's pretty much filled the role on that for the last couple of years. So no, I don't see anything, you know, barring a health issue, that will keep Trump from being the nominee. Meanwhile, President Biden is going to meet with the UAW leader today and the there's a real question of what he can do to shore up the image of bignomics, of what's happened in the economy, which some people are saying on paper doesn't look so bad, yet in practice, has a lot of people feeling like they want something different. Well, it's a good question, Liza. I'm told that within the White House, Trump Biden is angry, he feels he's done a pretty good job in the economy and gets no credit. So he's going to hit the road and try to make his case. The problem is an awful lot of Americans fear that we're not out of the woods, and there's still more inflation threats, food, gasoline still to come. Greg Valier one oh one. Folks, this is a great course to take in politics. You get it off the back of a matchbook. You can take Valier one oh one. Greg, Your value one oh one is fiscal issues at the day of the election don't matter. Are you telling me the debt and the deficit don't matter the first Tuesday of November, Well, when you look at net inter cost, you look at borrowing costs, this is becoming a major crisis for the bond market, and there's no mood in Congress whatsoever to dramatically cut the deficit. However, I think that once we get through Labor Day of this coming year, this stuff will be irrelevant. I think attitudes harden during the summer. If Trump is well ahead, he could pull us out. But I have a feeling that Biden will come back. I have a feeling that the Democrats all of a sudden are motivated because of what happened in Kentucky. Is a path of least resistance for the former president. Another tax cut that's going to be on the agenda. You're absolutely right, Tom, and I think with the Senate probably flipping, in the House probably flipping, you're going to have a climate that will be ripe for a huge argument on whether we extend the Trump tax cuts. I think we will. I think Trump will talk about tax cutting even though the deficit is enormous. Greg, I have to wonder whether this time is different. A lot of people come on the show. We'll say dysfunction in Washington, DC is the reason why yields have been flipping and flopping and going all over the place, and then they talk about a potential government shutdown and say markets won't care. Have we reached the point where market dysfunction is going to result from political dysfunction in DC in a more material way. Well, we're going to see probably another alleged crisis on November seventeenth if there's no budget. I don't think the markets will be all that concerned about it. I do worry about the credit agencies, you know, fitch S and p downgrading US debt, not just because of the size of our debt, but because things are so dysfunctional in getting a budget. Great to catch up, Greg, appreciate your input. Greg Vally. THEFJEFF investment's gone into next year, as Ed Marangi and Emmanuel. So are you a confirmed bull? Cameron? I think that given the setup into your end, we can expect some kind of Santa claus rally just because of tax loss dynamics into the end of the year. The largest weights in the index are up the most this year, which means that you don't have eager sellers to recognize tax games. This is very different than last year, where the largest weights in the index were down a lot people sold them and you effectively puked into the end of the year. What it's the proverbial puke into the end of the year? Okay, thank you? Can we say that on radio? We just did, Cameron seriously our Warner Brothers discovery yesterday. Puke as you call it. Okay, how does that handle by tax saw selling? Well? I think that it will magnify as we go into the end of the year. You look at the areas that are down the most. This is small caps, This is cyclicals, This is healthcare some of your defensives. These are the areas where people are looking for tax sace harvesting opportunities. The key point though, is that they're smaller weights in the index or they're not part of the index. So when we just look at the S and P five hundred, that could be something that supports it into end year. So help me here. Am I buying the index the S and P five hundred? And am I looking for buying opportunities in small camps? The financials, things that have struggled? What am I doing? I think that you have to look for opportunities and things that have struggled as you go into twenty twenty four, because we know that pain trades usually are reversal trades in leadership and just at the point where everybody throws in the towel and says, well, you can't own anything but the magnificent seven. These are the names that give you optionality on AI and they have the best earnings growth. Everybody crowds into them, that's typically the moment that that's when they start to lag. And so I think we have to have the imagination that other things could do well in twenty twenty four. Other than just the narrow leadership that we've had this year, the Tilson Slock of Apollo's writing questions for us this morning. This is the question he's asking in its most recent note. Everyone who's bullish on equities and lower rated credit should ask them sound where they think the labor market will be in three months. With the Fed on hold and not showing any signs of cutting anytime soon, what's your labor market bed With that in mind, we are having the ultimate debate is if we're seeing normalization or we're seeing weakening. And the challenge is that normalization is usually the gateway drug two weakening, meaning that you see a little easing that turns into a lot of easing. But we're not yet seeing definitive data yet to say that the uplift we've had in unemployment is going to barrel higher. The key…

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Surveillance: Pricing In Recession Fears with Peter Tchir Nov 08, 2023

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Peter Tchir, Academy Securities Head of Macro Strategy, points to potential issues in the global supply chain amid ongoing geopolitical conflicts. Libby Cantrill, PIMCO Managing Director of Public Policy, says the margin of error for House Republicans to avoid a government shutdown has narrowed. Dan Ives, Wedbush Sr. Equity Research Analyst, predicts that Apple could look to buy ESPN. Alexander Goldfarb, Piper Sandler Senior Research Analyst, says the commercial real estate market is in the midst of a rare phenomenon.Get the Bloomberg Surveillance newsletter, delivered every weekday. Sign up now: https://www.bloomberg.com/account/newsletters/surveillance Full Transcript: This is the Bloomberg Surveillance Podcast. I'm Tom Keene, along with Jonathan Farrow and Lisa Abramowitz. Join us each day for insight from the best and economics, geopolitics, finance and investment. Subscribe to Bloomberg Surveillance on demand on Apple, Spotify and anywhere you get your podcasts, and always on Bloomberg dot Com, the Bloomberg Terminal, and the Bloomberg Business app. Our guest of the Morning to synthesize all this with our question. Peter Cheers joins us. Now ahead of macro strategy at Academy Securities, you look for price up, yield down. What will that do to the equity market. I think for now it's going to be good. I think we see four thirty on tens before before we see four to seventy five. I think the pain trade is actually to lower yields. A lot of people who are bullished at five kind of got short again. I think that works until we get down about four thirty five. Equities rally on the back of that. Then we realize we're getting here because things like oil copper receding because the economy is actually slowing fast so I think at that point that's when the recession fear start getting priced back into stock. Taking Academy Securities three year view, you've got that slowing global demand. Nick bennenbrook On from Wells Fargo stunning with a two point four percent global GDP call. Can you own equities out with a three year vision? I think you could if you had a three year vision. I think right now it's more like a two to three week vision. Everything's so volatile. We don't know where this economy is turning. We don't know what's going on there. And one thing that's starting to scare me is we're having a lot of discussions about the Middle East. We're starting to hear a little bit more concerns about supply chains. I don't think it's an issue today, but if as this drags on, if there's any degree of escalation, supply chains become an issue again. So I think that will be a big drag on the economy. The Middle East crude last month is just unreal. To see a move of almost eleven percent lower on WTI, even with the heightened tension in the Middle least, A lot of people appointing to maybe demand starting to crack in a certain places around the world, Europe one, maybe even the United States gone into next year. What's your view on that. Yeah, I think the last time I was here, I said buying oil was not going to be a good hedge for escalation there because oil had been under so much pressure before, and I think that's what we're seeing again. There's just that lack of demand and the Saudis definitely have the ability to turn on the tap if they want. We're clearly trying to figure out how to work with Venezuela, and so far it looks like Aram's going to continue to pump oil despite the sanctions, despite the height intensions there. So there's not much in favor of oil right now, and I think that's a very crowded long position, so I could see that breaking lower coming into next year. You mentioned a two to three week view. I'm with you. You You know what's about to happen. Then in the next two to three weeks, we're going to get a load of people publishing their outlooks for twenty twenty four. Can you help us understand how you get any visibility whatsoever into next year? What's the strategic view going into you know, I think there's still some big themes. I think AI, how people are using AI, the efficiency that that could cause for companies. I think that's going to be a big theme still. So you can look over that. Where are we going to be on the defense spending? Where are we going to be in terms of geopolitical spending. I think the reshoring is still real. I think a reasonably healthy economy with their decent jobs is still the overriding thing. So I think markets are a little bit more volatile, volatile right now than the underlying economy is. So if you put this together to what you said earlier, that you see benchmark ten year yields getting down to four point three five percent before going back up to four point seventy five percent, or just basically they're heading lower. Does that mean that we're going to have slower growth but still the soft landing and that it basically people are going to get a little concerned about stocks, but that it sets up a rally. And I'm just trying to understand. No, I think a very convoluted range of thoughts. So I think as we move towards four thirty five, you get this, Oh, this is all good for stocks, and then as you start moving below four forty, I think people realize, oh man, we're getting there. Because things are not in the economy. The job market has changed, you know, white collar workers aren't doing as well as they were. You're seeing, i think, some potential for spending. You're seeing little cracks in the housing prices. So I think, all of a sudden, by year end, we're going to be back on a hard landing discussion and it'll be the boy who Cried Wolf, but we'll all be back talking about no more soft landing. We've overdone it. So you think that at that point, treasures will continue to be Haven's once again, even though arguably one of the biggest drivers of the yield move has been Washington, d C. And it doesn't look like that's changing. That's not changing. But again that's a three five ten year sort of pain. It's you know, we get ahead of ourselves. And I do think the one problem we all have is the bond market's so big. You talk about these numbers, two hundred and fifty billion, and it's huge, but it's you know, a fraction of twenty five trillions. So I think the ability to digest this you see corporate bonds come out twenty two billion yesterday, I believe it was you know, there's no problem digesting this, so I think the market's pretty healthy. I think people see yields as attractive. You're going to see people continue to add to that, so I think that's fine. It's going to be the risk side of things that gets people a little bit more spooked. Tell me about the November real yield shift we've seen. We've seen the ten year real yield migrate two point five zero percent to two point one nine percent. That makes things easier for everybody, right, it does. But I think the nominal yields still play a big role. They're still relatively high, and we had that move from you know, three seventy five to five, so we haven't clawed a lot of that back. I think there's this long you know, invariable lag time is really long. This time people did such a good job locking in yields. It's only now that you're hearing more and more people have to roll over their debt. Right if you issue to your debt back in the hey day, Now it's rolling over. Three year debt's not quite rolling over. So I think we're just starting to see that slow down impact. And I think one point John brings up, we've got what we've been calling this faux liquidity, this fake liquidity. It feels like the markets are super liquid at any given price point, but the ability to gap high or low is there. So I think we got pushed to five percent by people getting stopped out, pushing on yields. We're now got back to four fifty in a heartbeat because people are getting stopped out. So that's what we're trying to I think manage is like, what's the real noise versus the signal? You mentioned the Great Financinc. The Great Financinc. Of the pandemic, the huge wealth transfer we had from Treasury to the consumer. Consumer balance sheets were stronger. Everyone under the Sunny wonder House remortgage termed out that debt low rates. Corporate America did the same thing. One place didn't Treasury standrug Amit has been very critical of leadership a Treasury over the last i don't know, five years through that low interest rate period not termin out the debt. What are your thoughts on that? What do you think about that conversation? Yeah, I think they should have done what corporations did. I'm always a big believer, right, you know, borrolong it blocks in, you reduce volatility. And we're having a lot of conversation with clients. Probably a little bit hypothetical at this point, but maybe people are supposed to be under weight treasuries and T bills and way overweight whether it's commercial paper or corporations. That right, if you take a step back and talk about this as being governance, right, the US governance is offer right now in terms of our spending, in terms of we talk about not paying our bills. Right, you look at the large corporation's world. They have good corporate governance, they have global plans. They never once would ever even think about saying, oh, we're not going to pay our debt on time because we don't feel like it. So I think you're supposed to be starting to push really heavily to overweight high quality corporates, maybe in commercial paper, maybe some abs, and move really underweight T bills. So do you foresee a time when Apple can borrow at a lower rate than the US government? You know that ability to break the sovereign ceiling rarely happens, even in emerging markets. I don't think it happens here, but I do think you can see really tight spread compression, especially at the front end of the corporate bond curve. So I like that as a trade. Do you think we get convergence spread compression on governance issues alone? I think that will play a part of it. Yeah. I think the top quality companies have a ton of cash. The liquidity in the bond markets not what it once was, So whatever you have to pay up their own tea bills, maybe you don't. And I think this government issue is going to become a real thought again. If you think about it, why would you lend to someone who talks about not paying your debt because for a long time they've had the privilege of acting recklessly correct talked about this so many times there's been no consequence for it. Why is this time different. I think something we talked about before snapped in the market, and all of a sudden people are really questioning this whole you know, correlation or coalescence of events that have been on the back of everyone's mind. I don't think it cracks this time, certainly, but I think it starts setting us in stage again. I always go back to the Great Financial Crisis. It started breaking in two thousand and six, got fixed, broken in in two thousand and seven, got fixed, broken in in two thousand and seven, got fixed. So I feel now we've started this unwined and unless DC gets its act together, this is going to be Every time it rears its head, it'll get uglier. But it's not this year's story anymore. Pet love it always thoughtful Pitcher. There of academic securities. Lebby Cantrell joints Now managing director had a public policy a pinkel. You're the only one I can do this with. Can you take the election results and you can fold them into a government shutdown which happens in about three cups of coffee? Can you make that exercise happen? Yeah? Well, good morning, and thank you for not asking me a question about orgo. I did I take organic chemistry at school, so thanks thanks for testing me on that. Yeah, so I do think that the read through actually from last night, Tom So thanks thanks for a layup. Here is actually Democrats won a special election in Rhode Island. This was a is a blue race, a blue seat, this is a house seat. That means that they have two hundred and thirteen seats in the House. Republicans, however, only have two hundred and twenty one. They have a special election in Utah in a few weeks. The reason why this actually means this is important from a government shutdown perspective is that means practically that Republicans now can only lose three seats excuse me, three votes in order to pass a funding bill that they need a pass to avoid a shutdown by next Friday. So it just means that the margin of error is much more narrow for Republicans. Speaker Johnson was already needing to thread a needle, if you will, and that a needle point has just gotten even more narrow from the result from last night and threading the needle. What will moderate Republicans do? I don't have it in front of me, but I'm going to suggest on Long Island east of New York City, the Republicans had a good night. What are the moderate I guess the former president would say, Republicans in name only. How do they adapt an adjust off the selection? Yeah, I think that what we learned last night is that the abortion rights still very much resonate. That was obviously a takeaway from the twenty two, twenty twenty two midterms, where abortion really emboldened turnout. It shows last night that this really is very much an issue, especially when it is on the ballot. Now, I think for twenty twenty four, many of these folks, particularly in those districts Tom that you mentioned, where there are you know, Republicans who are defending Biden districts. The Democrats will make this an issue. You're going to hear a lot about abortion rights over the next year because of the results of last night, just sort of underscoring that this clearly is a resident voting issue for voters. So in terms of the government shutdown, what does that make those moderate Republicans do They are voting in lockstep here. They really are trying to give Speaker Johnson, you know, the benefit of the doubt. I think that will continue. I think the big question for markets is, though, is that enough can they actually avoid a shutdown If they pass a partisan bill, Tom, we will see a shutdown next Friday. So again kind of an open question of how this all resolves. But as of now, it looks like they are voting in a partisan way, which means that shutdown risk is you know, I think is increased over the last week or so. Do markets care though, I mean, as a shutdown basically, okay, they're going to do it for twenty four hours for effect and then we'll move on. Yeah, least, I think that's that's that's that's the real the real issue. If it is a temporary shutdown, no, this will just be more DC noise. If it's a longer, more prolonged shutdown, it does become I mean, the economic impacts of you know, lots of federal workers being furloughed not actually collecting a paycheck could matter. And also, you know, the data matters, right. If we don't get data from the Department of Labor, for instance, that makes the Fed's job, you know, a little bit a little bit harder. And we can also see, you know that this term premium that you all been talking about, we could see you know, some of the yields back up again as well on account of this. So I think you're right. If it's a short term shutdown, no, the markets probably don't care. If it's longer term, however, you know, it may it may weigh on you know. Again, I just sort of the confidence around sort of the political apparatus in Washington, d C. Just shifting from last night's elections to what we're expecting next yea…

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Surveillance: Kashkari on the Fight Against Inflation Nov 07, 2023

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Minneapolis Fed President Neel Kashkari says policymakers have yet to win the fight against inflation, and that they will consider more tightening if needed. Neil Dutta, Renaissance Macro Research US Economic Research Head, says a rebalanced labor market could led to a rate cut. Katy Kaminski, AlphaSimplex Chief Research Strategist, expects more potential buying for treasuries in the short-term. Mohamed Younis, Gallup Editor-In-Chief, previews the off-year elections happening across several US states. Nadia Martin Wiggen, Svelland Capital Director, discusses the global oil market as prices fall to over two-month lows. Get the Bloomberg Surveillance newsletter, delivered every weekday. Sign up now: https://www.bloomberg.com/account/newsletters/surveillance Full transcript: This is the Bloomberg Surveillance Podcast. I'm Lisa A. Bromoids, along with Tom Keen and Jonathan Ferrow, join us each day for insight from the best in economics, geopolitics, finance and investment. Subscribe to Bloomberg Surveillance on demand on Apple, Spotify and anywhere you get your podcasts, and always on Bloomberg dot Com, the Bloomberg Terminal, and the Bloomberg Business app. This morning, Mike McKay Drumrow, fantastic guests the random type with us to talk about Fed policy. Yes, and thank you very much, John, because we are pleased to welcome Neil Kashkari, the President of the Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapolis, to the table today. Thank you for coming in making the trip all the way to New York only for us. I'm sure nothing else There would be nothing else this morning, and except for Bloomberg Surveillance. You're kind of known as the guy who is the most hawkish. I don't want to characterize you exactly now, given how things have changed over the last couple of months, but you have left open the possibility of doing more. How much more would you think the economy might need? Are we talking about just that one leftover move from the dot plot in September, or if you have to start raising again, do you have to go farther. Probably. Well, first of all, it's great to see you, Thanks for having me. People are looking for certainty, and I wish I could give that certainty provided there's been so much, so much it's unusual about the reopening of the economy and the dynamics that led to the high inflation, and how long it has taken, and the dynamics as the disinflation process has taken hold. I wish I knew. We have to let the inflation data guide US, the labor market data guide US, just to point out the obvious. Our forecasts have not been great over the past couple of years, and so we just need to We're all committed. Everybody on the FORMC has committed that two percent is our inflation target. We have to get inflation back down to two percent over a reasonable period of time. Ultimately, the economy will tell us how much is needed to get there, And I just don't know. Well, at what point do you think you would believe you have tightened enough or not tightened enough? What is it that you're looking for. Well, I'll give you some good news is that core PC on a three month basis is running about two point five percent, and it's lower than the six month data. It's lower than the one year data. So that suggests that the disinflation is real. If we continue to see inflation numbers of that range two point five percent or lower on a go forward basis, that would tell me, Okay, we are now on a path back to two percent inflation. But three months data is still only three months data, and if we see that start to tick back up again, that would tell me our job is not yet done. Tick back up means what? In other words, we get another couple of CPI reports in a PCE report before your next meeting, a couple of tents higher. The chairman and others say it's going to be lumpy or does it have to be a significant move? In other words, what are you thinking about for December? Well, I think we could look at, as the chairman always says, we look at all of the data. So what surprises Over the past few months, We've been surprised by how strong American consumers have been. Consumer spending is held up remarkably well, we've been surprised by GDP growth. When activity continues to run this hot, that makes me question is policy as tight as we assume that it currently is. So if you saw inflation tick back up and you saw continued very strong economic activity on the real side of the economy, that would tell me, okay, we might need to do more. So it's hard for me to say this one data point needs to be here. I would be looking at the suite of data. Did we outsource doing more to financial markets? In the arts week? Have we outsourced doing more to financial markets? You know, this is a very complicated question on what has been driving the long end of the Yeld curve. Some people point to term premium, and I always joke the term premium is the economist version of dark matter. It's the residual of all the stuff we can't explain. It's not that our models are wrong, it's the dark matter is out there. So that's the term premium. And some people say, well, that's driven by fiscal If it was fiscal driving the term premium, I would have expected to see a week dollar. Usually when investors are worried about a country's fiscal position, their currency weekends our currency has been quite strong. It makes me wonder is it really fiscal driving the term premium. Another possibility is the path of policy over the next few years. That could explain both the stronger dollar and the weaker stock market going into the last meeting. Another one is that maybe the neutral rate is higher, or maybe it's a combination of all three of these. And so these are things that we're spending a lot of time trying to understand what the markets are doing. But just speaking for myself, I'm not comfortable saying which of those three it is, because which of those three it is determines what it means for policy. If it is the term premium, then it is doing some work for the FED. But if it's the neutral rate, or if it's the forward guidance of the path of policy, then we would actually have to follow through to preserve those rates. So how did this line end up in the statement? And I'll share it with that audience. The kind of financial and credit conditions for households and businesses are likely to wound economic activity, hiring, an inflation. Where's that coming from? Oh, that's been there for a long time. I mean, that's been in there since the Silicon Valley bank episode and the banking stresses leading to some tightening of credit conditions across the economy. So I think that that's right. I, for one, don't say that that means the recent moves in the old curve. How fluid is that assessment? Can that change from month to month, meeting to mating, because some of those comments around that has inspired quite a move in this market over the last week. Well, you know, one of the things about the statements, we always have to be careful about putting things into the statement because they tend to be long lived and it's hard to pull them out of the statement because as soon as you take something out, then all of a sudden, people say, oh my gosh, they're declaring that all the banking stresses are over, as an example, and so, you know, I would look at all of the range of commentary that you get, look at what the chairman says, look at his press conference to get a read of the thought of the committee. You said that people want certainty that you can't give it to them, and I understand that, but people don't just want certainty, they also want some sort of guiding philosophy. Do you think that Fed Shir Powell has outlined some sort of guiding philosophy and where the bar is to cut rates and where the bar is to raise them further. Well, I think he's articulated very clearly that we're committed to getting back to two percent inflation. Right. There's been some chatter amongst economists that maybe we should raise the inflation target. I think he's done a great job saying that is not on the table. We're not going to do that. We're going to get inflation back to two percent, and we're going to let the data guide us. We've moved very aggressively. We've made a lot of progress on inflation. We're not done yet, meaning inflation is not back to our target, and if we need to do more, we will. There seem to be a feeling in markets that the bar to cut rates has been lowered over the past week or two weeks. Suddenly not only are we reaching a pause and have we seen a peek in the FED funds rate, but that also the Fed will cut next year, maybe surgically. Neil Dada is talking about that and he's coming up next. Do you want to push back against that? Do you think that the bar to cut is still just as high as it was. I have no idea where market participants are getting that. There's no discussion amongst me and any of my colleagues about when we're going to start preparing to cut rates. The only thing that's been talked about at all is that at some point, when inflation is well on its way back down, if we didn't back off a little bit, then real rates would be getting tighter and tighter and tighter. And that's real, but that's math. But is there enough weakness currently in the market in the economy, I should say to give you that sense at this point, look at the last GDP print. I mean, does anybody look at that and think, oh, my gosh. The economy we for the last twelve months GDP has been very strong. The labor market continues to be quite robust. Yes, the unemployment rate is ticked up to three point nine percent, but we've also seen a huge surge of labor supply, which is really positive come online. So I'm looking at this, I'm seeing consumers that are strong. My air by the way, my airplane that I came here on was one hundred percent full yesterday. It's going to be one hundred percent full today, I'm not seeing a lot of evidence that the economy is weaken Well, whether you go higher or not, you are on board for longer. And so you must have modeled out some idea of how long you would need to leave rates unchanged before you could get down to a level low enough that you could take your foot off the break a little bit. How long do you think you'll be at five point five into twenty twenty four. Well, I think it's going to depend if we continue to see inflation prints similar to the ones we've seen the last few months, you know, and we end up with a year of a year at two point five percent core inflation and it continues to trend down, that constellation would give me evidence to say, hey, we ought to look at should we start backing off just so the real policy isn't getting tighter and tighter and tighter, because we're clearly on our way back down to two percent. But again, I don't want to just point to one data series. We will be looking at the suite of data to try to get a read of where the economy is headed. Well, not just data. You talk to businesses in your district, all the time, What are they telling you now about their view of growth and hiring and pricing going forward. It's moderating. So the labor market is still tight in my district, people especially in the Dakotas, really have a hard time finding workers. But in Minnesota, it's still a tight labor market, but it's not as tight as it was six months ago. It's not as tight as it was a year ago. So that kind of maps to the national data that we're seeing of a gently cooling labor market but one that's still very very warm. Same thing with economic activity. Depending on the sector, they're saying, Hey, we feel pretty good about things. We're a little cautious about the future. Obviously, they watch the news, they read the news. There's a lot of economic anxiety that is reported on that people, you know, factor that into their own thinking and their own business planning. So I think the outlooks are still optimistic, but it's cautious optimists. Well are they still raising prices or think they need to? So it's funny there Still they still buy and large have some pricing power more than they had before pandemic, but not as much pricing power as they had six months or a year ago. Can we finish on housic sure in the space of three years, we've had record low interest rates in the highest rates in several decades. Is this housing market broken? Well? I think since the pandemic, we have structurally underbuilt the number of units that we need to meet our growing population. And that's the factor. And that's really about regulation at the local level that are creating barriers to more supply coming in. The raid environment will settle out over time, but structurally we have to actually bring a lot more supply online to meet America at the time, but it could be like twenty thirty years. I think this is the issue here. The legacy of this FMC could well be a generation of people look down to the housing market. Why do you say that there could be a generation of people with two three percent mortgages that never sound their home. Yeah, I don't know. People end up needing to move. It's funny when people don't tell their home because they're locked into a low mortgage. That's less supply, but that's also one less buyer. Most people who buy homes are leaving another home, and so that affects both the supply side and the and the demand side of That's why I set a generation look down because I'm renting and count by, so I'm not sounding anything, and that's the generation. I'm talking about that generation specifically, you concern that could be the legacy at the FORMC. Now. I think the legacy of this FMC is that we've dealt with the pandemic very aggressively. Then we were surprised by very high inflation, but then we move very aggressively to bring the inflation back down. I want to ask you about a story on the Bloomberg terminal today about all the financial CEOs from the US over in Hong Kong sounding very doer and down about the prospects for the economy. They suggest that things are pretty fragile right now, both in the economy and the markets, given everything that's going on around the world and in the shadow banking system as well as theirs. How worried are you, well, I mean, we're always worried about things that can happen all around the world. We've got teams of people looking at different scenarios around the world. Ultimately, we have to focus on what we can control, you know, geopolitics. When Hamas attacked Israel, the first thing we thought of is what's it going to do to the oil market, what's it going to do to commodity prices. Remarkably, the response so far has been muted. But that's something we're obviously paying close attention to. But the broader geopolitical issues are just so far outside of our bounds of forecasting. You know, we have a hard enough time forecasting inflation trying to forecast where geopolitics is going. We just have to focus what we can control. Oil price is dropped. I mean, that's the crazy thing about the last month. Physically, it doesn't make any sense. And this is the reason why trying to get it right is just impossible. And then trying to get the idea of a FED put and whether they're going to respond. I'm just saying people are talking about that now, so yeah, talking about it in the last few hours. Yes, it's on this program. No, always a pleasure, Thank you, Sirving Neil, Cash County, the Minneapolis FED price Alongstide Plympecks, Mi M chab No Tatsa, the head of US economic research at Re…

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Surveillance: Narrative Ping Pong in the Bond Market Nov 06, 2023

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Mandy Xu, CBOE Global Markets VP & Head of Derivatives Market Intelligence, advises monitoring multiple asset classes going into the year-end. Michael O'Leary, CEO of Ryanair, says the airline remains committed to Boeing despite delays in aircraft deliveries. Amanda Lynam, BlackRock Head of Macro Credit Research, says there's an increased focus on selectively from credit investors. Julie Norman, UCL Centre on US Politics Co-Director, discusses the Israel-Hamas war and Antony Blinken's visits to several leaders in the Middle East. Ashley Allen, Franklin Templeton Corporate Credit Research Analyst, discusses resilient consumer spending. Get the Bloomberg Surveillance newsletter, delivered every weekday. Sign up now: https://www.bloomberg.com/account/newsletters/surveillance Full transcript: This is the Bloomberg Surveillance Podcast. I'm Lisa Abramoids along with Tom Keen and Jonathan Ferrell. Join us each day for insight from the best in economics, geopolitics, finance and investment. Subscribe to Bloomberg Surveillance on demand on Apple, Spotify and anywhere you get your podcasts, and always on Bloomberg dot Com, the Bloomberg Terminal, and the Bloomberg Business App. I'm DeLine of joined us now at a macro credit research at black Line I and I don't worry. We're not going to be talking about that. I do want to talk about supply if we can start there. We've got forty eight billion dollars a three year notes this week, We've got forty billion dollars a ten year notes. We've got some thirty year bonds twenty four billion dollars worth. These are big, big numbers. That's treasury supply. What's happening with credit supply going into year rent, Good morning, Thank you both for having me so. As you know, credit supply had a bit of a flurry of activity in September. It calmed down in October. I do think with this tentative stability in the treasury market that corporates, CFOs and treasures may look to move ahead before the year end seasonal slow down. It will be an important test for the market how this treasury supply is digested. But as we know, the Treasury Secretary guided us towards the front end of the curve and not so much in duration in the refunding announcement last week. But I actually think, if nothing else, the past several months have shown corporates that this can be very episodic in terms of these windows opening, and so given that we know the maturity walls are coming up, I think for corporates it's better to issue early rather than late. We're expecting a big week in the IG market this week. I think expectations are a little lower in high yield, but I would not be surprised if we surprise to the upside in terms of those expectations, because I think it's just prudent for CFOs, which speaks to kind of the opportunism that one Sidi get desk told me about last week. He messaged me as soon as we saw this rally and he said, everyone's trying to come to market. I've gotten fifteen phone calls. Everyone's basically lined up. Is this going to be bad? With credit spreads widening in the sort of counterintuitive way because we've got more supply, I think the appetite is there, and I think we've had such light supply, especially in high yield year to date, and twenty two was a record a low level that I think the appetite for the market is there. I think where the real risk is is it that lowest quality cohort of the triple C market, that kind of lowest quality rung of high yield which are triple C issuers. There. I think we've seen some enhanced pressure where it's weak results coupled with refinancing needs have really pressured those capital structures. And even on this swift rally in high yield spreads that we've seen over the past few trading sessions, triple c's have rallied, but they've lagged on the way in. And I think it's the market telling you that there's an appetite for certain quality cohort in the credit market. Ig I think is there in most market conditions. Hig yield is a bit more tentative, but for that lowest quality rung, I think it's very case case specific and vary idiosyncratic. Are people kind of just pricing in perfection here? Well? With high old spreads below four hundred, it's hard to argue you that there's much risk premium added into the market at the moment. I think what we're seeing is a lot more focus on selectivity from our credit investors, so thinking about asset allocation between high yield and leverage loans, sector selection, issuer selection. I think where we're high old spreads are at the moment, the path of least resistance is probably a little bit wider in terms of choppiness, with some of the headline risk ahead of us. But again, as we've talked about before, where yields are, it's really difficult to see kind of highield spreads breaking out in this range of much wider from here, because when you every time, we tried to reach four forty last week and we kind of snapped back in, and so there is a bit of a tug of war between fundamentals and technicals, and even the most vulnerable fundamental pockets of the market have been the best performer, Like leverage loans. You mentioned the decision set between loans and say high yield help our audience understand what goes into making that kind of decision and whether that's changed in the last few weeks. So it has changed in the last few weeks because for a few reasons. One is, if you think we're at the end of the rate hiking cycle, if you think we've seen stability in long end rates, you might think that the bulk of the loan outperformance is behind us at this point. And indeed that yield pick up that leverage loans were offering over high old bonds has narrowed. So what we are seeing is a bit more interest, say even within capital structures, of investors saying Okay, well I'm in the loan, should I rotate into the high old bond or given the fundamental pressures of this higher for longer rate environment, that we're expecting our loans disproportionately impacted by that because they've been contending it with it for a longer time. Again, we don't view fixed rate bonds as immune from that in many instances, but I do think on the margin, given the strong performance of loans here to date, there is some refocusing on Okay, is the bulk of that loan performance behind us read some life into that just a little bit more. We sort of big equity move last week. If you're looking at a and I know it's unique and idiosyncratic, but ultimately just give us the thirty five thousand foot view. If you're looking down a capital structure right now, is the bias to be higher or lower in Actually, you know, I think the high end of the highield market has actually outperformed the low end of the IG market. So it's not as clear cut as saying be underweight high yield versus IG. There are a lot of nuances there. I do think for choice, I would prefer to be higher in quality within high yield in IG. I think moving down into that triple beat cohort is a relatively nice place to be. For the most part, the vast majority of those corporates are committed to maintaining investment grade ratings. You are picking up a bit of a spread pickup relative to the highest rate cohort. I think that's important in this current environment, especially if we don't get a severe downturn in growth. So I don't mean to be overly basic about this, but when you take a step back, I do wonder if we do get coalesce around this higher for longer kind of idea. Does it make sense that we're not going to get any kind of major default cycle, either in public credit or in private credit. If we're looking at benchmark rates that are five percentage points higher than when all of these companies were bar in bulk not so long ago, it's a great point, Lisa. So we are seeing a modest uptick in defaults. Were it just under five percent in the US when you combine high yield and leverage loans, that's well off the rock bottom levels of twenty twenty one and twenty twenty two. Do we break out to the levels that we saw in COVID eight and a half nine percent, I think, barring a severe downturn, I don't see it. Part of the reason is that corporates have entered this period in a really strong position. The other part is that the investor appetite, to your point, John, is there. And then third, I would say corporates are actually shifting to a more balance sheet friendly posture. So we haven't seen a lot of debt funded m and A, we haven't seen a lot of debt funded share buybacks. They're still investing in capex, still investing in debt repayment in terms of uses of cash. But I do think corporates do have some discipline. I think the real risk is that if there's a severe downturn in growth coupled with just a capital market's freezing such that these corporates don't have access at any price, I think it's I think it's difficult. As for the private credit point, historically we look at losses between the two markets, and private credit losses have held in better than public credit losses. Part of that is because the enhanced flexibility that those corporates have. We think that holds true. But I think the point remains, we're expecting an ongoing normalization higher and losses across all those asset classes not extremely given where we know where the maturity will is. Can you identify what would be the least optimal time to have any canoa down to and is that what's basically on the horizon now? So I think probably the biggest risk is that if corporates try and time this opportunistically, they let the year end play out, they think the environment will be better in the first half of twenty twenty four, and then we have some sort of shock, whether that's geopolitical unforeseen risk contraction. We're watching bank lending very closely. Although that has actually played out I think a bit more benign than we would have thought. That is the risk. I think that if corporates try to be almost too strategic about the timing and they cut it too close. We saw that in the financial crisis, where some corporates we're shut out. So that's why I think, if I'm a CFO or treasure, better to issue early rather than late. At a Lisa's point, maybe we get a lot more supply in the coming weeks and months based on what we've seen develop over the last few weeks. No matter, thank you always great. I'm out of line in there of black Rock. Michael I literally with this around the table to Ryan CEO. Michael, I wish people could see your face, as said Basting, wispeak it just to get some reaction. It's going to see you. Good morning, It's great to be here, John, Lisa, good talk to you again. Well, thank you, buddy. You've had earnings out this morning. We've been talking about this dividend of four hundred million euros. We've got to talk about this relationship with Boeing. I want to share a couple of quotes with you and then try and get some clarity. So you said in the last week, if anything, it's getting worse. I would have been reasonably confident up until about a month ago that we'd get fifty seven aircraft by the end of June. I'm not confident. We heard from your CFO this morning. So the worst case scenario is that we'll end up with growth of forty seven aircraft next summer instead of fifty seven. Help me understand where things are. What did you want and what do you think you're going to get? Yeah, I mean ourkis so we are contracted to deliver as fifty seven aircraft by the end of April twenty fourth, in other words, fifty seven additional aircraft for summer twenty four. At the moment that has slipped by the spirit production issues, in which it all Boy's own production issues in Seattle. I think now it looks like we'll get they'll leave us maybe ten short by about the end of June. We're hopefully we get forty five fifty aircraft by the end of June. We said the point we're not taking planes in July and August because frankly, we're too busy. But we're reasonably hopeful that we'll get forty five fifty aircraft front. They will leave us short. I think that's inevitable at this point in time, which means we'll have slightly slower growth next summer, but we'll still add forty five aircraft. It'll still be enough to enable us to grow traffic from one hundred and eighty three million passengers this year to just over two hundred million passengers. It's for a number you have in mind whereby you would have to cut capacity the next summer. There isn't. I mean, we haven't yet announced what the capacity will be next summer. As we said this morning, we have ninety percent of our summer twenty four capacity already on sale. Strongforward booking is good pricing, but we can't commit to the last ten percent until we get a better picture from Bowie. I speak weekly with Dave Calhoun. I think he's doing a good job in difficult circumstances. I have less faith in the management in Seattle, but I think you know, we're working closely with them. We have our own people in Seattle. We have our own people in spurting Wichita and anything we can do to expedite these deliveries will do because growth is so strong in Europe. What is it about the management in Seattle what they're getting wrong? I think there isn't enough focus there on a daily basis on how do we get in with these aircraft out? Everybody is kind of ringing their hands blaming Wichita. You know a lot of the issues are in Seattle as well. They need a more crisis I would like to see greater crisis management in Seattle and greater focus on quality control. You know, I don't understand how Wichita Spurt and Wichho We're able to have this succession amount of production problems if BOE's quality control was up to speed. Do you have options options in terms of what do you do if you don't want to work with Boeing anymore? I don't know. Let's say we want to work with Boeing. We're Boeing's biggest customer by a mine in Europe. We're a committed Boeing customer. Now I would buy Airbus aircraft if they were five percent cheaper per seat than Bowing. But Boeing continue to beat Airbus on pricing. The seventy three seven Max is a phenomenal aircraft, like we now this summer we've flown one hundred and twenty five of the Max eight aircraft. We're carrying four percent more pastures, we're burning sixteen percent less fuel. You know, they're transformative in terms of the engine and aircraft efficiency. We've ordered three hundred Max tens, which will allow us to carry two hundred and twenty eight passengers per fight and burn twenty percent less fuel. So they're making great aircraft. It's just they're not making them on time or delivering them in time. Is it fair to say, though, this is a relationship you're stuck with regardless of what it delivers next year. I mean yes, you know we're committed to Boeing. If you look around the world, the aircraft manufacturers, i mean Airbus are no better than Boeing at the moment. Airbus are way behind on their deliveries too. You have the and Whitney engine, which is going to be a real crisis next summer across the A three twenty fleet in Europe. You know, the part and Whitney engine is going to ground a significant number of airbus aircraft next summer. So all of the air craft manufacturers are challenged. We're a very proud Boeing customer. I think Boeing will get its act together. It's just taking a bit longer than we had originally hoped. In the meantime, how far can you jack up prices if capacity is constrained? I me…

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