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Mohamed El-Erian, Bloomberg Opinion Columnist, guests hosts the show and says the 'enormous volatility' in the bond market needs to be corrected in order to restore the Fed's credibility. Stephanie Kelton, Stony Brook University Professor of Public Policy & Economics, says the Fed has effectively put fiscal policy on autopilot. Steve Chiavarone, Federated Hermes Head of Multi-Asset Solutions, describes the Fed's policy trajectory as headed for a "rocky landing." Stephen Schork, The Schork Group Principal, says traders have become skeptical about supply levels of oil and jet fuel heading into a major travel season. Jeannette Lowe, Strategas Managing Director of Policy Research, says the meeting between President Biden and Xi Jinping won't change the dynamic between the two countries in a major way. Get the Bloomberg Surveillance newsletter, delivered every weekday. Sign up now: https://www.bloomberg.com/account/newsletters/surveillance Full transcript: This is the Bloomberg Surveillance Podcast. I'm Tom Keene, along with Jonathan Farrell and Lisa Abramowitz. Join us each day for insight from the best an economics, geopolitics, finance and investment. Subscribe to Bloomberg Surveillance on demand on Apple, Spotify and anywhere you get your podcasts, and always on Bloomberg dot Com, the Bloomberg Terminal, and the Bloomberg Business App. Why don't we move on to what doctor Olrium cares Mohammed, We've got to sit on crude, the idea that crude has essentially collapsed into a bear market, down more than twenty percent from the September highs. We spent this week talking about soft lending, hopes and dreams. Do we have to start thinking about an economic downturn in the not too distant future, well some of them. Some people are talking about this. I mean to see oil prices down more than twenty percent from the highs at the time that there's a conflict going on in the Middle East. It's quite quite and that's feeding into the soft landing. And we're going to talk a lot about this. But the market has now fully embraced not just that the fat has finished this hiking cycle, which I think is correct, but that we're going to see deeper and deeper cuts next year without a recession, and that's the critical assumption that's now built in across markets. I want to get the money question out of the way right away. As CEO of a major two million employee company in America called Walmart, yesterday brought up a d word deflation seared into the fabric of Cambridge, Oxford in the London School of Economics as a study a British deflation of the thirties and forties. America has never faced that have they They haven't, and we've had Japan recently. And the problem with deflation is it discourages people from buying today. However, I want to stress the US is deflation in certain products, food being the primary example, and that's why Walmart we decited it. We don't have general deflation, and I doubt we're going to have general deflation. I mean, I look at the an inflation question and it is a vector of disinflation in place. Clearly we see that. What is your optimism of getting back to John Williams two point zero percent? Richard claired is two point x percent. I think Richard is more likely to be right than John. I think we're going to get stuck in the high twos, and the FED is going to have to make a very difficult decision. Does it live with inflation higher than target because the target itself is too low, or alternatively, does it acknowledge that two percent is the right target and then crushes the economy. I think that's the choice the FED is going to have to make. What's your best guess right now? I think it's going to go for the format. I think the FED will understand that pressing two percent inflation in a world where there's insufficient structural supply is not the right thing to do. So where do you think it leaves this bond market? Let's go through this course right now. We've got a two year at the moment at about four eighty, a ten year at about four forty. Think about where we've been in the last month of Summerhammet had a two year pushing five twenty five high set of cycle, ten year through five percent high set of cycle. How are you thinking about what we come back down to, bearing in mind what we're pricing for right cuts next year. I think we've come down too far to tell your truth. I understand why some people think that we're going further, but if you look at the inflation dynamics, that's harder to get unless we go into recession. If we go into a recession, then the stock market is mispriced, so you can't have both at the same time. Has something changed? I think this is what it goes back to. Has something changed post pandemic? That means we don't go back to the pre pandemic world. That debate, I think is still on going. Mohammed, where'd you come down on it? I think the pre pandemic world was exceptional. It was a world of qui. It was a world of insufficient aggregate demand. And when you have insufficient aggregate demand, you can push into the economy as much liquidity as you want because you won't get inflation. That world is gone. We're in a world now of efficient, inflexible supply, and that's a very different world. Sometimes talk about over the two hours with doctor Olian is growth economics. I've been telling a lot of people to remind themselves of a guy named Solo at MIT in nineteen fifty six and the near religious experience of trusting and growth. Can you state that we have a new American growth economics of what some people are indicating is improved productivity, improved efficiency. So you know, I listened carefully to our friend Mike Spence, the Nobel Prize winner, because he spent so much of his career studying studying with John Hicks, I mean correct majesty of that alone, and he is incredible and his insights are really valuable. And his bottom line is that most countries have to evolve to a new growth model. The US is the most advanced in that evolution. I think the three important piece of legislation that the administration passed last year were critical in that perspective. So if you look around the world, whether it is the US, Europe, or China, all three have the challenge of evolving the growth model, and only the US is doing it seriosly right now, too gloomy? We no, Lisa isn't here, so we're not too blooming. No. I think we recognize that the world is evolving. This is a different global economy, this is a different domestic economy, and policies have to evolve accordingly. What worries me and I think the concern of a lot of people listening to this conversation on going at home is you just have to go about forty eight hours and we're talking about disinflation, soft landing, hopes and dreams, and then twenty four hours, forty eight hours later, you look to Burberry a collapse in luxury. You look to Walmart a warning about the US consumer. You look to Crew entering a bear market, and all of a sudden, we're talking about a slowdown and maybe even recession. Mohammed. The bond market is stuck between all of this. We're seeing double digit moves day after day in either direction. You've written about this extensively in the last few months, about a bond market that's lost its anchors. Is an economic slowdown sufficient to regain some stability in fixed incoming treasury specifically? No, I mean I was really struck yesterday. I was watching you when you said, guess what, we had the same level of the tenure as we were a week ago, and my reaction is, how could that be? So I looked it up and you were right. Now. Most people feel that this week is very different from last week because of the inflation print that we've had. We still lack one of the three anchors. You either need an economic anchor, or a policy anchor, or a technical anchor to the bond market, and we've lost all three. So these moves are going to continue. The thing that has really impressed me is that nothing has broken. If you had told me a year ago we're going to see this incredible volatility and the most important market in the world is the benchmark for so much else, and yet nothing will break, I would have said that's impossible. So the resilience of the functioning of the market has really impressed me. The financial system, and of course we had the shock and the United Kingdom off a derivative structure in the pension plans, but to lead to this and measured in standard deviations, which is how fancy people like Alarian think. We had a six seven eighth standard deviation and thereat moderation. There's a hope in prayer we get back to that trend line that's in years. How many years are do you think we heal this great bond tobacco. I think it's going to take time. Remember we've had ten exceptional years where the bond market was distorted, so I must say back to vulgar We've had, you know, thirty exceptional years. But the shift to an artificially low interest rate and ample and predictable injections of liquidity fundamentally changed the bond market and that is going to take time to recover from. Did you and Bill Gross get a free ride because you were within the Great Moderation? Was that such a structural like a free life? But the PIMCO when you build it, you invented it with Bill? Was it? Was it easier because you had the Great Moderation? Or just just think of investor. Investors care about three things, returns, volatility, and correlations. And we went through a period that because liquidity was being injected into the economy over and over again, we got high returns, we got virtually no volatility, and the correlations broke down. But in your favor, you made money on your risky assets and you made money on your risk free acids. At the same time, there was a great time. We took it to be normal, but it was truly exceptional. And we're going back to a world that I think is more like what we had before the Global financial crisis. It's going to be so hard to shake this, Mohammed, because we've got a whole generation, in fact, a couple of generations conditioned by two major shocks, the financial crisis and the pandemic. And we know how the FED response to major shocks. What we've all forgotten is how it responds to just normal economic downturns and upside pressure on inflation. How do we start to get into that all over again? Yeah, And this is where FED credibility and better communication is better. John, It's really striking that the market is willing to take on the FED on a price that the FED controls. The FED totally controls the policy rate, and yet the market does not believe what the FED is is telling us. And it is really striking because we have got to restore FED credibility otherwise we're going to continue with this enormous volatility. Your thoughts on what's percolating into the end of the year in the Q one twenty twenty four. Are there shadows in private equity? Are there shadows in the new non traditional finance? Yeah? So, one thing that I don't think is pricing enough is that when you move from the banking system to the non banks, you change the lags in the system. So you see this with commercial real estate. Everybody recognizes that the re financing of a trillion plus of assets is going to be tricky, but because it's over time, we don't worry about it. Everybody recognizes it as a maturity wall in the corporates out there, but because it's over time, we don't worry about it. If it were all within the banking system, we would have worried about it really quickly. So the move from the banks to the non banks has extended this Michael Spencer's shore. The regulatory lag here is tangible. This is the uncomfortable calm note as well, just to borrow that phrase from a long time ago from the Bank of International Settlements, This maturity wall is out there in twenty twenty five, and it's just this feeling mohammed that we don't have to think about it. But at some point we have to start thinking about it, don't we, right? But you know what, you enjoyed the journey before you get to a destination. Oh, here we go, and you want to give us some good news bad news, bradmos out here, No, no, I totally understand, you know, because momentum is really important, and you want to be exposed to this market. And I think most people have much more of a tactical mindset than they do of a strategic or structural mindset, and investment has become very tactical. Mohammed's set in the Town's great to have you with us, by the way, it is without questions, through the pandemic and literally over the last five years she has had a greater influence on the debate of our American economics and anyone out there. Out of Sacramento, Cambridge and a tour of duty at the very liberal New School of Social Research, Stephanie Kelton joins us now from Stonybrook University. The book is a deficit myth. In the three letters, are MMT professor honored to have you on Bloomberg's surveillance? Are we unraveled? Stephanie? The worry here of the annual interest expense the return of a real interest rate? Are we unraveling as we roll into twenty twenty four? No, I mean we are. The Fed is effectively in a sense, putting fiscal policy, a big part of the federal government's budget on autopilot. And it's really tantamount to running, you know, a pretty regressive fiscal stimulus. That's what the rate hikes are actually doing. If we don't like it, Tom, there's a pretty easy way out of it, which is to say, if the rate high are pushing up the amount of money the federal government is spending to service the debt, interest expenditure up by hundreds of billions and trillions of dollars over time, remittances from the Fed to the treasury have collapsed. All of this is adding to the deficit, which triggers more issuance of treasuries, which puts you in what is essentially just a cycle now of higher rates, higher deficits, higher debt, and it will continue for as long as the Federal Reserve holds in this position with a deficit. The debt and the deficit is from the new school Heilbrunner and Bernstein classically talked about years ago. But the arch MMT criticism is, you're handing monetary decision making from the acuity and date driven data dependency of a FED over to the legislative branch. Can we trust the legislative branch to prosecute MMT given where we are right now? Well, okay, I'm glad you mentioned hal Brunner. He was a professor of mine when I was there in a really terrifically bright person Tom. MMT is a description of the monetary system that we have today. It is a floating exchange rate fiat currency. Love it or hate it, it's what we have. MMT describes the monetary system that we have and the mechanics of government finance. It's not a policy proposal. It doesn't propose changing anything. It's describing how things already work. So think about what Congress did with the onset of the pandemic, drafting first the Cares Act that two point two trillion and then the big Omnibus Bill, a nine hundred billion dollar package, and then the Democrats came in and did their one point nine trillion dollar American Rescue Plan Act. All of that was deficit spending. We didn't give Congress any new permission to do anything. We just described how it all works. And it helps to unders stand why Congress was able to muster that kind of fiscal firepower when so many economists had previously said that when the next crisis came, we would be unable to act. People like Larry Summers said because of the Republican tax cuts in twenty seventeen, that we would be living on a shoe string for decades to come.…
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