No woman wants to face the horror of her husband’s betrayal. Or have to recover from the emotional, physical & financial trauma and never-ending consequences. But these courageous women DID. And we’ll walk with you, so YOU can too. If you’re experiencing pain, chaos, and isolation due to your husband’s lying, anger, gaslighting, manipulation, infidelity, and/or emotional abuse… If he’s undermined you and condemned you as an angry, codependent, controlling gold-digger… If you think your husband might be an addict or narcissist. Or even if he’s “just” a jerk… If your husband (or ex) is miserable to be around, this podcast is for YOU.
Betrayal Trauma In Relationships: What No One Explains
Mar 11, 2025
Show notes
A lot of women are looking for answers about how to heal betrayal trauma in relationships on Reddit or other forums. Here’s what those forums get wrong:
1. Betrayal Trauma isn’t “JUST” About the Cheating – It’s About ALL the Abuse
Betrayal trauma victims on reddit often share their stories about how their husband cheating on them and they can’t get the thoughts out of their heads. BUT they’re posts make it clear that they’re still unaware of all the other abuse they experienced.
For true healing, betrayal trauma victims progress more quickly when they’re aware of the truth. Understanding the emotional, psychological, sexual, financial, and spiritual abuse will help things make more sense.
When it comes to betrayal trauma, knowing the truth is the first step to true healing.
2. There are Things That Make Betrayal Trauma Worse
Therapists may accidentally blame you by trying to help you figure out what you did to “get yourself into this mess.” But you didn’t do anything to deserve it, and it didn’t happen because you needed to learn something.
Women betrayed by an intimate partner don’t need therapy because nothing is wrong with them.
3. Many So-Called “Relationship Recovery” Resources Don’t Help Women Heal
Reddit or other forums contain many links to resources for couples to recovery from infidelity. However, they fail to mention two facts:
1) Infidelity is an abuse issue, not a relationship issue.
2) Couple therapy is never indicated when abuse is present. For this reason, any couple therapist who doesn’t understand that infidelity is abuse won’t be is not only unhelpful, but also unethical
These unethical therapists often pose as victims and link back to their practices to promote their business. Women in our community have often been to multiple therapists spending thousands of dollars on therapy, and the therapist doesn’t help them identify the abuse.
The Right Support To Help You Identify if Betrayal Trauma In A Relationship
If you discover your husband betrayed you, knowing what to is difficult. Sometimes clergy, therapists, even the legal system dismiss women’s trauma after betrayal.
Betrayal Trauma Recovery empowers women when they become educated about what to do. One of the key things to do if you’ve been betrayed is determining if there has also been emotional abuse. To discover if his betrayal includes emotional abuse, take our free emotional abuse quiz.
Transcript: Betrayal Trauma In Relationships
Anne: We have a very special episode today. Women who’ve experienced betrayal trauma in relationships share what helped them heal—I asked them to record their thoughts and send them to me, and here are those recordings.
She Learned How to Create Boundaries Due To The Betrayal Trauma In Her Relationship
Betrayal Trauma Victim #1: We tried many counselors, including CSATS, and have been doing that quite some time. Being on BTR for just a few weeks has made all the difference, and I can see the behaviors now much more clearly, the dysfunction. Being on every day and getting the validation from the coaches and other women has been tremendously helpful to me. Life changing.
She Received Life-Changing Support
Betrayal Trauma Victim #2: I’m grateful for Betrayal Trauma Recovery. I gained clear thinking about what I saw and what was happening. I listened to the podcast, then coaches talked with me one-on-one. They helped me name what I faced—grooming, gaslighting, and more—and gave me simple strategies to handle it. Before BTR, I didn’t even have words for it. It’s the best support for betrayal trauma.
The biggest shift came when I took what I learned and used it in real situations. One of those was with my husband’s counselor. He pushed for marriage counseling, like many do. But BTR taught me something important: both people need a basic level of health before that can work.
So I said it clearly. My husband’s behavior—sex outside our marriage, pornography, all of it—was not a marriage problem.
They cause marriage problems, but they are his personal problems until he addresses them. Marriage counseling will not be successful, and I will not participate. But it was BTR that empowered me to understand, one, I have a voice, and two, that was a very logical way to handle the situation. The counselor looked surprised, but he understood my point. He chose a different course with my husband, and that helped him more.
So I’m very grateful for BTR and the coaches, and thankful for the daily presence of having somewhere to go where I felt supported and peaceful.
She Learned That She’s Not Crazy
Betrayal Trauma Victim #3: BTR Group Sessions have amazing coaches who have also walked this path. They can give appropriate advice, encouragement, and help answer questions and guide you along the path of recovery.
BTR gave me the words and the terminology to put to how I was feeling. And knowing the right words to describe my feelings helped calm my soul and helped me to not feel so crazy. There have been several moments when I was full of panic, anxiety, and fear because of the situations at home with my husband, and I was able to get on Betrayal Trauma Support Group within a couple of hours and talk through it, get the comfort and validation that I needed and advice if it was needed.
BTR Group has been a lifesaver for me on many occasions. It’s a safe place where I can cry and let it all out and share my fears, no matter how silly they may seem to others. The coaches and other women in the group understand and get it. It’s a judgment free zone where I can be me and fully accepted for who I am, for all my faults and failures and my accomplishments.
Gave Her Strength When She Needed It
BTR helped me to set and hold appropriate boundaries for my safety, which helped me to feel confident and empowered. The coaches and other women in the group give me validation to know I am not crazy, and that others have been through the same thing. I love being in the group and hearing other women’s stories and questions.
And often they have the same questions I have, and sometimes questions I had, but I didn’t know that I had, or how to ask. And so many times the advice given to other women was just what I needed to hear.
I’ve been doing BTR groups since the beginning, and it’s great to build that relationship with the coaches, and to have them tell me how much improvement and growth they have seen in me. BTR group is the friend I never had and needed so desperately. I have felt so alone for so many years. BTR came into my life when I needed them most, and to have the coaches with me through this journey of healing.
I honestly can say I don’t know where I’d be without the BTR Group Sessions. I credit so much of my healing and strength to the coaches and other women in the group. BTR Group has helped me become a better person, healthier person, stronger, more confident, and empowered.
The Horrific Experience of Betrayal Trauma In Marriage
Betrayal Trauma Victim #4: I was going through a really ugly part of the divorce. I was dealing with a lot of very covert abuse, very mean and horrible to me and my younger daughter, but nice to everyone else. A family in our church took my 16 year old daughter and I into their home. She was going through some issues also.
And she said, “You’ve got to attend BTR Group Sessions.” And, I started attending BTR Group Sessions and listening to BTR Podcasts, and was surprised at the connection with the pornography. It has the best betrayal trauma resources. I actually went to counseling. I’d been going to counseling for years, with my marital problems. And nobody had ever made that connection before. https://www.btr.org/best-betrayal-trauma-resources
And when I brought it up to my therapist at Kaiser, she said, “Oh, that’s interesting. I’d never made that connection before.” And I just kept listening to BTR Podcasts and it was so intriguing. I hadn’t even thought about the connection of with coercive control.
That hit me really hard. I think it gave me more validation because even though I really can’t confront him about that, we were on zero communication.
It gave me a lot of validation to know that I’m not crazy, that no matter how this looks to everyone else, I’m suffering horribly and I’m not crazy. I appreciate the BTR podcast and the Group Sessions. It’s been invaluable to me, and I just thank you for it.
I Learned Self Worth and Self Care
Betrayal Trauma Recovery Victim #5: BTR was recommended to me by my counselor. She recommended that I get into group. She said it was important that I get into group while still seeing her. The great thing about BTR group sessions is how they’ve helped me. So you have all different coaches who bring with them all different areas expertise.
I have found that when I get on these groups, I get all this coaching and support, and hearing other from other women’s experiences.
It has helped me know that I’m not alone, because it is so easy to feel so alone in all this. One of the things that’s important is having safe people. If you have people around you that don’t necessarily understand your experience, you don’t feel safe. And BTR creates that safe environment.
So the women in these groups are safe. You never feel judged. You’re not going to have people tell you how you should think or do. It’s completely safe. And while each woman’s experience is unique, we all share commonalities. And having that support helped me through the most traumatic relational experience in my life.
She Experienced Betrayal Trauma In Her Relationship
Betrayal Trauma Recovery Victim #6: I truly believe Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions saved my life. I’ve made lifetime friends, the only ones who understand my feelings, who have gone through the same things. Each coach has their own special traits, and seeing the different views of the same subject or seeing things in different ways or suggestions helps make you feel safe.
She Found Clarity After Years of Marriage Trauma
Betrayal Trauma Recovery Victim #7: My husband was in recovery and having. All of these meetings each week and having all the help he needs and counseling. And I felt like I was being left out in the dark. I was at the end of my rope.
So I started searching for something to help me. I found BTR. I decided that’s what would be best for me. So I started attending the group. I have found that having this group has been the best thing that ever happened to me. It has taught me what self care means. It’s taught me a lot of things about gaslighting and DARVO and things I’d never heard of before.
They’ve helped me through a lot of really hard situations. The group has been so supportive. The women are amazing. Everyone has their own story to tell, but each person gets validation and support that they need and feedback from the coaches as well as each other. It’s been great to know that I’m not alone in this, that there’s other women who have struggled the same as I have, and that I can be there to support them, and they can be there to support me.
She Finally Had A Name For Her Experience
This group, I lean on it a lot. When I’m going through hard times, and I don’t understand everything happening with my addict, they help clarify situations for me, and give me options. They also give me a place to share, and I feel safe, and I’m not being judged. I just want to let others know how wonderful the BTR group has been for me, and I would recommend it for anyone who’s going through betrayal trauma, so they can learn and grow.
I feel like I’ve learned and grown from the first time I attended to this day. I’ve learned self worth. I’ve learned what self care is, things that I didn’t even understand when I started attending Group Sessions.
So I just want to thank all the coaches, everyone.
Received Validation & Encouragement
Betrayal Trauma Victim #8: I really appreciate how you validated everybody, first by listening, and then by encouraging them in their own insights and giving them, you know, advice.
permission to do and be whatever they needed to at that moment. I have not experienced that with counseling, though I’ve been through a lot. Yeah, it’s been a trial. And so I recognize the uniqueness of it and it’s just amazing.
When Your Ex Uses The Kids To Hurt You – How To Deal With His Chaos
Mar 04, 2025
Show notes
There is no fear or pain quite like the trauma a woman experiences when your ex uses the kids to hurt you. Whether it’s through the family court system, co-parenting, or everyday chaos, abusers know one of the most effective ways to harm a woman is through her children. If you’re going through this and need support, come to our online support group for betrayal trauma. FIVE TRUTHS: WHEN YOUR EX USES THE KIDS TO HURT YOU My ex husband’s emotional abuse didn’t stop after divorce. I thought leaving would end the chaos. It didn’t. It just changed form. In my case: My ex husband used the kids to create more chaos. He undermined their care and disrupted their schedules by canceling appointments and refusing to take them to activities. The system didn’t protect me. I believed that if I showed the truth in family court, they’d support me in protecting my children. What actually happened: When I went back to court six years later to request a reduction in his parenting time…they granted him more. When your ex uses the kids to hurt you, the system doesn’t always see his interference for what it is. Doing more didn’t fix it. I had documented everything and communicated my reasonable requests clearly. But: None of that changed his behavior. When your ex uses the kids to hurt you, more communication and effort on your part just gives him more material to twist, escalate, and use against you later. He didn’t want resolution, he wanted control I kept thinking we could figure it out. That we could land on something that worked for the kids. But his goal wasn’t peace, or parenting, it was control. He contradicted what I said, ignored what the kids needed, and created conflict, even when it made no sense. Strategy, not effort, is what changed everything. The turning point wasn’t trying harder. It was doing something completely different. For me: I stopped focusing on getting him to understand, or getting the court to fix it. When your ex uses the kids to hurt you, the only thing that changes the outcome is strategy. This led me to develop the strategies that eventually became my workshop that teaches women what to do after betrayal. And about a year later…everything changed. LETTING ANGER FUEL STRATEGIC ACTION Abusive men use the courtroom to not only torment victims, but also to manipulate court professionals and seek validation. They don’t want parenting time or a peaceful resolution, they want to win. It’s impossible to co parenting with a narcissistic parent. They want chaos and enjoy the fight. To know if your ex is emotionally abusive, take our free emotional abuse quiz. When he uses the kids to hurt you in the courtroom, it is essential that you seek support, practice radical self-compassion and self-care, and develop good boundaries. Family court systems all over the world are broken. Outcomes are completely unpredictable. However, you can determine now to love and accept yourself no matter what happens. You can determine now to surround yourself with people who love you and build you up. You will need support and community as you face your abuser in the courtroom. It’s understandable and reasonable to be angry. Your anger is a powerful force that can drive you to take action. Anger is a catalyst for change. The reason why so many people fear an angry woman is because an angry woman is unstoppable—she takes action and challenges the status quo. This is precisely why abusers and oppressors work so hard to suppress women’s anger. They know it can dismantle their control. Anger, when channeled constructively, becomes a tool for empowerment, inspiring bold steps toward justice. When Your Ex Uses The Kids To Hurt You: Abuse By Proxy If an abuser harms or manipulates the children to harm you, it’s known as “abuse by proxy.” This tactic involves using the children as tools to control, intimidate, or emotionally damage you, often by turning them against you or causing them emotional distress. It is considered a severe and harmful form of post-separation abuse, with long-lasting effects on both the targeted parent and the children involved. Transcript: When Your Ex Uses The Kids To Hurt You Anne: It’s just me today. You’re about to hear something that I recorded years ago before I really understood what my ex-husband was doing to me and my children, and I certainly didn’t know what to do about it. At the time of the recording, I was divorced. On paper, I had a decent custody arrangement. But behind the scenes, my ex is an attorney and he was still emotionally and psychologically abusing me and neglecting the needs of our children on almost a daily basis. In fact, he still is now. I have a son with a processing disorder. He was undermining his medical care. Canceling his appointments. He refused to support any of our children’s extracurricular activities. Every day was chaotic. So I did what I thought was in the best interest of my children. I went back to court thinking that if I could just present the truth, things would get better for my kids. Instead, he got more custody. I was devastated, and you’ll hear that in my voice in this recording. Fighting a narcissist for custody is awful. If you’re in a situation where your ex-husband is using the kids to hurt you. These are a few things that I wish I understood back then. THINGS I LEARNED THE HARD WAY, WHEN YOUR EX USES THE KIDS TO HURT YOU First. If you share kids, emotional abuse doesn’t stop after divorce. It just changes how it shows up. Since he can’t control you directly, he’ll use the kids to control whatever he can. Second. The civil court system is not likely going to protect you from his ongoing abuse. In fact, they’ll probably think that you’re making it up or that you’re overreacting. Now, this isn’t true. I totally get it. They perceive that just two adults can’t get along. They don’t understand the truth. There’s no way that you can get along with someone who is undermining you and lying all the time. Third, doing more doesn’t fix it. I tried being clear, cooperative, reasonable. None of it helped. Fourth, it was hard to wrap my head around the fact that he actually did not want solutions. He wanted all the privileges of being a parent without any of the responsibility. Once I understood that, everything started to make more sense. Fifth for me, strategy, not effort, changed everything. My turning point was not trying harder. It was actually doing something completely different. I’m a woman of faith and I believe in God and I study the scriptures a lot, so I’m gonna talk about how I came to know these strategies. We are interfaith inner paradigm here. So even if you’re not religious or you don’t believe in God, hopefully the way I explain these strategies will be helpful to you. ‘ Cause right after I recorded this, I was so devastated I changed my prayers. I started asking God, like what strategies I should use so that he could deliver my children from their emotionally abusive father. And that question led me to study the scriptures on betrayal and deliverance and to pray. DISCOVERING STRATEGIES THAT WORK WHEN YOUR EX USES THE KIDS TO HURT YOU More importantly, discover these amazing strategies that did deliver us from his chaos. We’re completely free from him now, and it’s awesome. These aren’t courtroom strategies or communication strategies to get him to understand. They were strategies that reduced his ability to create chaos in our lives. So after using them for about a year, my ex signed what I called my miracle decree where his parent time was only one short weekend a month from Friday night to Sunday night, only two holidays a year, every spring break and Thanksgiving, and only two weeks during the summer. And I was given full decision making power. So as a result of this, my children had significantly less exposure to him and I didn’t have to deal with his like constant chaos, undermining the kids or using the kids to basically harass me with long legalese type messages. Writing The Living Free Workshop Because they worked for me, I wanted to know if they would work for other women. So there were about five women who were going through what I was going through, and I said, “Are you willing to try these strategies? They did and these women said it changed everything. After I knew, this wasn’t just a fluke. We replicated it with five different women. I created the Living Free Workshop, so every woman who was going through this could learn it. In fact, we used the real life messages of the five women we worked with for the Workshop. So in section three, communication strategies, you’ll see their messages, and I think you’ll be surprised that they’re really similar to what you experienced. As you listen to this recording from the past, remember that at the time I recorded it, I didn’t know any of the strategies. We hadn’t been delivered. If you’re like, “Ah, I’m there, I’m where Anne was.” I want you to know that I totally understand what you’re going through, and there is a way out. These strategies really can protect your peace and your children’s peace without court even if he doesn’t change, but especially if he doesn’t change. For more information about my Living Free Workshop and these strategies, go to btr.org/living free. LOOKING BACK, THIS CHANGED EVERYTHING Ok, let’s cue the recording. Most of you know that I am religious, that I follow a faith tradition, I’m Christian. Specifically a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I am grateful for the foundation that provides me of faith and hope in God and my Savior, Jesus Christ. For you non-religious listeners, atheists or agnostics, you are welcome here. We’re so glad you’re here, and I’m so grateful that you listen and are part of this. Because this issue affects every woman, regardless of her paradigm, her faith, or the way that she sees the world. Parable Of The Wheat & The Tares Anne: I’ve been studying the parable of the wheat and the tares. For women of Christian faith, you’re probably familiar with the wheat and the tares. For everyone else, please indulge me. In Matthew 13, verse 25, where it says, but while men slept. Sometimes I wonder if that means that while the clergy, legal system, and basically any man who could stop the abuse, but won’t. They will not hold the abuser accountable. They won’t believe us or listen to us. That as these men sleep, the children of the devil grew and grew until you could see their fruits, basically, is what this is talking about. Many victims of abuse try to justify not setting healthy boundaries with the abuser, because he’s “a child of God.” Well, he’s a child of God. So I’m going to love him, God loves him. But that doesn’t mean he’s not hurting our kids. But in this parable, starting in Matthew 13, it clearly states that there are children of the “wicked one.” And I’ve been thinking about the way the scriptures, both the Bible and the Book of Mormon, describe men who are not obeying the commandments. They don’t say, and he didn’t obey the commandments because he felt shame. They actually call them a word. And the word they call them is wicked. This is a common term used throughout the scriptures. Part of me wonders why don’t we use this term anymore? And part of it is the Christian aversion to passing judgment. But Christ also asks us to decipher between good and evil. That’s part of the reason why we’re here on earth. There are those of us who have set boundaries. Setting Boundaries When Your Ex Uses The Kids To Hurt You Anne: We’ve removed everything the abuser can use to hurt us. Essentially, there’s nothing left for them to use to hurt us, except for one thing, our children. Your ex uses the kids to hurt you. Because they’re the dad, they can assert control that way. Every day, I hear stories of sheroes, victims of abuse, who are not believed or supported by their churches. Every day, I hear about how their children, these children of wicked men and righteous mothers. Are dragged through chaos and pain regarding custody in the courts, because the wicked have no desire for peace. That’s not their goal. Their goal is to win. I wonder if you would do something with me, and if our whole community will do this. And for you atheists, maybe just hold it like a moment of silence or something that works for you. Like offer it up to the universe. Will you pray every morning and night for the next 30 days that the tares can be gathered and burned? Talking about that classic parable from Matthew 13 about the wheat and the tares. I know it’s apocalyptic. It sounds intense. We’ve also talked so much about boundaries on this podcast. Healthy boundaries in marriage separate us from harm. No matter what boundaries you use, they can still actually be abusive. So the only thing you can do is separate yourself from the harm. You can’t stop the harm, but boundaries are definitely the most important and basically the only tool in our toolbox to get to safety. Self sufficiency brings us peace. Boundaries bring us as much peace as possible. Even after we have essentially said, get thee hence to our abusers, these children of the wicked one, they still have a way to hurt us through our children. Scriptural Helps & Safety Anne: There’s nothing you can do in many cases, when your ex uses the kids to hurt you. We’re not able to command armies like the men in the scriptures to protect their families when they go to war. We don’t have that ability, but we do have an army of angels to help us. One of my favorite scriptures regarding the wheat and the tares says, behold verily, I say unto you, the angels are crying unto the Lord day and night. Who are ready and waiting to be sent forth to reap down the fields. And then another scripture in Mormon 8 verses 40 through 41 says, Yea, why do you build secret abominations to gain and cause that the widows should mourn before the Lord. And also orphans to mourn before the Lord for vengeance upon your heads? Behold, the sword of vengeance hangeth over you, and the time soon cometh that he avengeth the blood of the saints upon you. For he will not suffer their cries any longer. The parable of the wheat and the tares is related to Matthew 24:40. Where the scriptures say, Then shall two be in the field, and one shall be taken, and the other left. Call For Prayers For Peace & Deliverance Anne: Will you pray with me morning and night for the next 30 days? That the tares in our lives, the children of the wicked one that are fully ripe and have the fruits to prove their wickedness. Will be removed from our lives so that we can have peace? Here’s another scripture. In second Nephi 26, three through four, it talks about the wheat and the tares. It says, and great and terrible shall that day be unto the wicked, for they shall perish. And they perish because they cast out the righteous (women). I’m paraphrasing there, and stone them and slay them. Wherefore, the cry of the victims of abuse shall ascend up to God from the ground against them. Verse four, where for all those who are proud and that do wickedly. The day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, for they shall be as stubble. And in Isaiah 35:4 we read, say to them that are of a fearful heart, be strong, fear not, behold, your God will come in vengeance. Even God with a recompense, he will come and save you. Personally speaking, you may have heard several podcasts where I said I was going through a difficult thing. And I didn’t say much about it, because it had to do with a custody case regarding my children. Which I actually lost. So I wanted to share with you that I did everything right. Personal Custody Struggles When Your Ex Uses The Kids To Hurt You Anne: I was honest. I was forthright. I said my concerns and the people involved just did not believe me. And I saw the writing on the wall. I lost and settled the case. As a result, my children have a much more difficult custody schedule. Something else that came out of that w…
Is My Husband Toxic? – When You Discover His Double Life
Feb 25, 2025
Show notes
There’s another word for toxic – abusive. If you’re asking, “Is my husband toxic?” What you’re really asking is, is he emotionally or psychologically abusive. Here’s three things you need to know. What Does “Toxic” Mean? A toxic person uses manipulation, control, lies, and chaos to get what they want. Often, toxic men use emotional or psychological abuse tactics, which can be harder to detect than physical abuse, but is just as damaging. See if he’s using any one of these 19 different types of emotional abuse. If he is, he’s toxic. Take our free emotional abuse quiz to find out. Here are some red flags of toxic emotional or psychological abuse to watch out for in your marriage: 1. Manipulation Does your husband often twist situations to make you feel like you’re the problem, even when he’s clearly at fault? 2. Control Does he lie to control your perception of him, rather than meet you on equal grounds by telling the truth? 3. Objectification Does he objectify women or exploit women? Questions to Determine If Your Husband Is Toxic If you’re unsure whether your husband’s behavior is toxic (abusive), ask yourself these questions: Does he belittle my emotions, making me feel like I’m “too sensitive” or imagining things? Does he undermine me by saying my friends or family don’t know what they’re talking about when they’re doing something to empower me? When I express concerns, does he block conversation by storming off or shutting me down? Or start attacking me with the exact same “concerns” he’s never brought up before? Does he dismiss or “forget” promises? Has he ever lied to me about things he’s planning or what’s going to happen that he has no intention of ever actually planning or doing. Does he frequently criticize, judge, or blame me instead of taking responsibility for his actions? Do his words or actions make me feel small, unsafe, or like I’m constantly walking on eggshells? If you answered “yes” to any of these, take our free test for emotional abuse that will help you know for sure. What Your Husband’s Toxic Behavior Does to You Living with emotional or psychological abuse can lead to chronic stress, anxiety, depression, and feelings of worthlessness. It can make you question your reality, leading to something called “gaslighting,” where you’re manipulated into doubting your own experiences or memories. Over time, these effects will erode your mental health and self-esteem. Yep, Your Husband Is Toxic. What Can I Do? Acknowledge the Problem The first step is recognizing that your husband’s behavior is abusive or toxic. It’s not “just how he is,” nor is it “your fault.” To learn more about this type of abuse, listen to The FREE Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast. Seek The Right Support Talk to trusted friends or family members about what you’re experiencing. You might also consider attending Group Sessions, like Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions. These sessions provide a safe environment to share your experience with women who understand. Learn Strategies To Protect Yourself If your husband is toxic, going to couples therapy or talking to a priest might make things worse for you. Toxic men often use tricks to blame you for the problems. They might even say your relationship or marriage is toxic, trying to make it seem like it’s partly your fault. His mean behavior isn’t your fault, even if it hurts you. Before talking to a counselor or Pastor, learn what he’ll do next by enrolling in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop. That way you’ll be one step ahead. Transcript: Is My Husband Toxic? – When You Discover His Double Life Anne: Jessica is on today’s episode. She holds a bachelor’s degree in media studies and has an in-depth understanding of how the media impacts our lives and shapes our attitudes, beliefs, and behaviors. Jessica is a feminist and activist. She is also on the board of Culture Reframed, a nonprofit organization founded by Dr. Gail Dines, whose mission is to build resilience and resistance to hypersexualized media. Welcome, Jessica. Jessica: Thank you. I’m glad to be here. Anne: Jessica, a lot of women come on my podcast. In fact, it’s the #1 podcast for betrayal trauma. These women share their stories.And when I told my friends and family, they were like, “Calm down. It’s not that big of a deal. Why are you freaking out? He’s such a good guy.” Even feminists say it’s not a big deal when he’s toxic in this way. Is He Toxic If He Lies? Anne: So as an activist, let’s talk about why feminists should be opposed to this type of toxic behavior. Jessica: There’s a lot of confusion and divisiveness around this topic, and a lot of misguided intention and misinformation. I just want to start by reading a quote from Rachel Moran, a trafficking survivor. She was a prostituted woman in her youth. And she is now exited and is an author and activist. She has a quote that says, “There is not now, never has been, and never will be, a feminist case for men to commercialize the bodies of women.” There are two types of feminism, the people who think it’s empowering. And the people like me who think there’s no benefit to the commercialization or commodification of women’s bodies. And the difference in language is that someone like me is a second wave feminist, another term for it is radical feminist. Radical simply means, the Latin root of the word radical is to get to the root of something. So radical feminists look at the overall system of oppression. Which means it’s patriarchy, and how patriarchy oppresses women and children. Radical feminists try to look at the root. The other type of feminists who maybe would argue that this type of toxic behavior is empowering are typically referred to as liberal feminists. Third wave feminists, choice feminists, or even sex positive, which I shudder at. I’ll explain why it’s not positive later, but there’s major disagreement among people in these movements. Focus On Liberation Of All Women Jessica: So the third wave of people who think it’s empowering believe that if a woman makes the choice. No matter what the choice is, it’s empowering. Based on the fact that she’s getting to make the choice. So, they’re looking at individual empowerment for the actual individual. Whereas a second wave of feminism, like myself and Gail Dines. And so many other people in this movement are looking at what’s good for women as a class. So if I decide to be a stripper or go into the trade. In the big picture, it’s not only bad for me as a woman, it’s also bad for my sisters. It’s not good for women as a class, because it puts women at risk. and sends a message to society that women can be bought, sold, and rented by men. So our focus is on the liberation of all women. My goal is to help free all women from oppression under patriarchy. Not just go make my personal decision. For example, I wear makeup, but I don’t call wearing makeup feminist. So this word feminism has really gotten conflated with a lot of other things. It’s changed meaning, and we see that happening with a lot of things over time. Toxic Sexism Hurts Women Jessica: It is co-opted, and people redefine it and turn it into something else. The original definition of feminism speaks to women as a class, not the individual. The word freaks out people, radical because it sounds so extreme. But I like to remind people that the second wave movement was the women’s liberation movement in the 60s and 70s. The women of that movement were second wave. They were very critical about exploitation. Because they understood that when you have an oppressor class. Which is men in a male supremacy or a patriarchy buying and renting the bodies of the oppressed class. You can never have equality. It just doesn’t work. So that’s where we’re coming from with this. I just want to add another word for radical feminist or second wave feminist is abolitionist feminist. In other words, I don’t think the exploitation industry, and I like to call it the exploitation industrial complex, because that’s what it is. It’s a multi billion dollar industry. It’s a big, big industry, and the exploitation industrial complex is just this large thing that we need to look at how it’s affecting women all over. So in other words, if I have a sister who’s getting prostituted or women who are being looked at as objects. How does that translate to me in the real world, in society and culture? How am I going to get looked at? Will I be impacted? Whether I’m in that industry or not? Yeah. Liberation From Misogynistic Ideas Anne: That’s my goal here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery. It’s to liberate all women from whatever is exploitative and misogynistic ideas and oppression of what they “should” act like. And what it means to be a woman is that we don’t have to accept coercion. We don’t have to accept any form of toxic objectification or anything that we feel uncomfortable about in our relationship. Anytime we stand up for our own rights, we stand up for everyone. If we could hold hands around the world and stop exploitation, it would stop. Because there wouldn’t be anywhere else for it to go. https://youtu.be/fvhCIwaXUz4 Jessica: Right, I think women play a big role in this, like you’re talking about. But I believe that until we address the demand side of trafficking. Women will not be liberated, because we know by the data and experts in this field who study exploitation. That it’s the most, generally speaking, destitute, impoverished, traumatized, vulnerable people on the planet are the ones who end up in prostitution, being trafficked, into inappropriate media. You know, when people argue for choice, like, oh, that’s her choice. We have to step back and define what choice is. Is it her choice to prostitute herself, because she won’t feed her kids? This is a lie that this toxic industry perpetuates. Are those the choices we’re looking at? Are we talking about sheer survival? And why would we argue for that choice? Shouldn’t we give women more opportunities and look at what are the driving forces and what is bringing them there? And why are they saying, “We could just look at what brings people to the exploitation industry and what keeps people from getting out.” The Lie Behind The Harsh Realities Of The Oppresive Trafficking Jessica: It’s horrifying, like if people got educated about this topic and saw what brought women to this. Aside from being trafficked, right, and being coerced and drugged, and all that. What brings them there? And then why they can’t get out. The trauma, the feeling of they have no place to go. And the brokenness when you escape this abusive trade. The needs that you have to get back on your feet emotionally, physically, spiritually, all of it, that’s a lot of heavy lifting. It is a lie. And there are not many services out there. So, many women don’t make it out of the trade alive. They take their own lives, they die of drug addiction or overdose, they are killed, they die of complications from injury, all kinds of health and physical risks. Abolitionist feminists like myself, we don’t believe that this industry can be regulated. The same way an abolitionist in the 1800s in this country would never say, we want to keep slavery, but we want to regulate it. They wanted it gone. Because they knew that this was something built upon oppression. It was built upon racism. It was built upon patriarchy, and so from a second wave feminist point of view. Like myself and Gail and you, we see it the same way. You cannot regulate an industry built on exploitation, inequality and patriarchy. It is a lie that you can make this type of toxic industry safe for the women used in its making. We see it as dehumanizing and objectifying other human beings. And it’s a human rights issue. Public Health Crisis: Toxic Online Material We can talk to regulators, anything you would consider under the public health umbrella. Big Tobacco was a good example and model that we like to reference a lot, because there was a time, not too long ago, where there was a huge divide in the medical field about whether cigarettes were bad for you. And whether they caused lung cancer, and some doctors actually prescribed cigarettes to clients to help ease anxiety and relax them and whatnot. We still have clinicians in the mental health counseling and coaching fields today, who prescribe this type of toxic material for couples. And it’s harmful. The Lie Of The Sex Positive Movement Jessica: We still aren’t there yet in terms of education. And so I think the public health approach is the best approach everybody can get on board with. Everybody can get on board with this, because it’s about looking at the facts. It’s about the data, science, and education. So that people can make informed decisions, not just take this away, and the person seeks it underground or whatever. This is now an informed decision about your health and your relationships, which equates to your health because we know how important relationships are to health. Anne: Exactly. So with that, let’s actually talk about the this movement. We had a guest on one of our episodes talking about being positive, which is so cool right now. And to be a progressive, like educated person. If you said I’m not then everyone would give you a weird look. Can you talk about how this toxic material is NOT positive, and why? Jessica: Yeah, there are so many reasons it’s not. I’ll start with first and foremost, it ruins people’s intimate lives. So that’s ironic, that the more a man uses this toxic material the less intimacy they have with a real life. You’ve heard of inappropriate media induced erectile dysfunction. This is a new phenomenon we’re seeing since the explosion of. Young men report erectile dysfunction that can’t be explained by any other variable. The Lie That Toxic Online Material Isn’t Harmful Jessica: They’re otherwise healthy men who don’t have a physical reason for having erectile dysfunction. So it’s keeping people from actually connecting. So there’s that, number one. Number two, it’s a product that’s scripted, not creative, very formulaic and bottom line driven. It’s about hooking the consumer and taking away their agency. If you want to talk about choice, agency, and empowerment, it’s the absolute opposite. They’re hijacking our own ability to have authentic intimacy. So the template, instead of authoring my own intimacy, my own sexuality. Which is the most private, personal thing in my life. Now it’s co-opted by this multi-billion dollar industry, designed to change my template. It takes people’s power away, and you hear this from many recovering people. That once they stop using and stop using for awhile, they get their sense of agency back. And they start to have their relationship back, and they can co-create an intimate relationship with their partner. I came up with this quote because it’s one of the big arguments in the third wave movement. It’s none of your business what people are doing in the privacy of their bedrooms. And I like to respond by saying, “If it’s none of anybody’s business, what people are doing in their own bedrooms. Why have we made it the business of the this toxic industry to the tune of multi-billions of dollars?” The Lie Of The Sex Positive Movement Jessica: Yes. So they have gone from saying, “It’s nobody’s business, what I do”, to “I’ve handed it over to a big business.” And now what happens in the bedroom is directly or indirectly run by this multi-billion dollar industry. That, frankly, has nobody’s best interest in mind. Not only is it addictive, but we know it’s horrifically, and this speaks to the feminist piece and the human rights piece. It’s horrifically misogynist, violent and brutal towards women. There’s tons of data on this. I don’t know how anybody could defend the content online today with any kind of positive or feminist lens. Or even defend it as a humanist. Somebody who believes in human decency. It’s a type of hate speech in my opinion. Why is this p…
How to Tell Emotional Abuse vs Normal Conflict
Feb 18, 2025
Show notes
What’s the difference between emotional abuse and normal conflict? I’ll dive into that below. When we’re figuring out the difference between emotional abuse vs normal conflict, it’s important to focus on emotional safety either way. Step one would be to take an emotional abuse test to see if what you’re experiencing is emotional abuse. Understanding Emotional Abuse vs Normal Conflict Emotional Abuse: Emotional abuse is manipulating someone’s emotions to exploit them. Because it’s aim is exploitation, it causes significant damage to the victim’s sense of self. Normal Conflict: Normal conflicts are an inevitable part of any relationship. These types of benign conflicts are caused by differences in opinions, values, or expectations, but there’s no exploitation involved. Normal conflicts happen with two healthy people who care about each other and want the best for each other. When a husband uses online explicit material or cheats on his wife, it’s a form of emotional abuse that deeply affects her. Normal conflicts don’t cause infidelty, it’s emotional abuse. What Is Emotional Safety Many women in the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Community share stories of feeling alone—when friends dismiss their accounts of emotional abuse. Sometimes clergy or therapists discount emotional abuse victims, especially when their emotionally abusive husband lies to the clergy or therapist about what’s going on. In many religious communities, marriage is more important than a person’s feelings or emotional safety. Which doesn’t make sense, since the point of marriage is emotional safety. This type of abuse violates the essence of marriage. Choosing safety doesn’t mean ending your marriage. Your husband’s decision to be emotionally abusive has already broken that trust. At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we emphasize that safety encompasses several aspects of life: Physical Safety: Make sure you meet basic needs like shelter, food, and clothing. Removing yourself from immediate emotional threats. Emotional and Psychological Safety: Finding an environment where you can express yourself without fear of judgment or retaliation. Spiritual Safety: Your beliefs are respected and not used against you. Financial Safety: Gaining control over your financial resources and decisions. Sexual Safety: Having autonomy over your own body and choices. Steps To Begin Your Journey: Separate Yourself from Harm: Enroll in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop to learn what type of abuse you’re dealing with (or even if he’s actually abusive), and then what strategies to use to keep yourself emotionally safe. Surround Yourself with Support: Connect with support groups or communities like Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions where you can share your story without judgment. Practice Self-Care: Focus on basic needs like nutrition, hydration, and sleep to maintain your physical health. Educate Yourself About Abuse: Understanding abuse dynamics can empower you and provide clarity on your situation. Listen to The FREE Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast. Transcript: How to Tell Emotional Abuse vs Normal Conflict Anne: Welcome to Betrayal Trauma Recovery. This is Anne. I’m so excited to have Natalie on today’s episode. She’s the author of All the Scary Little Gods, and I’m so excited to have her on today. Welcome, Natalie. Natalie: Thank you so much. I’m excited to be here. Anne: You’re amazing. I’ve always appreciated your work. Especially all the interesting and fascinating deconstruction that you do with spiritual abuse. I love it. You’re so smart. And it’s just, it’s fun to have you here. Let’s start by talking about your new book, All the Scary Little Gods. Natalie: I wanted to tell my story. Because I wanted to help women stuck in fundamentalist programming. Who maybe weren’t able to read. Or had the capacity and interest in reading a scholarly type or non-fiction book about deprogramming. In fact, that might even scare them off a little bit. But they might want to read a story about it. So, instead of telling people how to walk this journey, you know, do step one, two, and three. I wanted to show them what a potential journey of deprogramming and deconstructing might look like. Especially for women who weren’t ready to give up their faith. But wanted to figure out how their faith aligned with goodness and love and their core values. I think it was like the English teacher in me saying, show, don’t tell. Anne: I loved that it felt so honest, you are expressing that inner dialogue. Helping women know you’re not crazy. Everybody thinks these things. Discussing All Types of Emotional Abuse Natalie: Yes, exactly. The first part I wrote from my younger self. So you kind of hear about my childhood from that perspective. Fortunately, I kept journals. And when I read through them, I heard the arguments inside of me. Part of me would argue in my journal and think one way, and then another part of me would think a different way. And so I just started listening to those parts of me and figuring out, like, what were their concerns? I had many different kinds of concerns that were almost contradictory in many ways. I think a lot of us do. Many of us have conflicting thoughts inside of us. And then we think, am I schizophrenic? Am I crazy? What is my problem? Why do I know one thing with my head? But then on the other hand, I keep making these other decisions over here, and I can’t seem to get any traction in my life. Anne: Can you talk about those concepts of deprogramming? The effects of spiritual abuse are so damaging how did you figure out for yourself if faith is right for you? Deprogramming & Deconstructing Faith Natalie: I feel like it’s a very individual process. If I said, Oh, well, my path led me down this road, and I kept my Christian faith. And so therefore, that’s the right way. Then all I’m doing is repeating what I grew up with. So I think giving yourself freedom to sift through the beliefs you maybe have. And decide which ones have served you in your life and have served the people around you. And actually align with what you choose to believe about a creator God. Or however you want to describe that God and which ones don’t. Because for me, I kind of boiled it down to love. And when I looked at the life of Jesus Christ and what he represented, I decided he represented love and was a deconstructionist. So when we deconstruct, I feel like we’re walking in the footsteps of Jesus, whether we align ourselves with him or not. That’s what we’re doing. I decided that love was the bottom line for me. What about my faith was actually expansive or expanding love in my own life for myself first. Then for my family, and then for those around me into the world, and what things were actually fostering more oppression, more abuse, more control and power over systems. I realized that much of what I believed actually contradicted love. So I removed things from my life and focused on emotional abuse vs normal conflict. I also opened myself up to my children choosing their own paths, with some deciding to completely walk away from their faith. The Concept Of Love In Faith Natalie: I don’t have any fear about that anymore, like I used to. But again, it’s because of what I now believe about God. I was scared of God before. Because the God I worshiped was very little and scary. I bowed down, worshiped, placated and catered to many other little scary gods in my life. That sort of represented that scary God. I needed to get rid of that kind of thinking to truly love myself and other people. And honestly, in order to really love God. I don’t think that when we’re afraid of something, we can enter intimacy and love for that other person. Anne: Or God, right? Absolutely agreed. https://youtu.be/AE3vGT6blBg Natalie: And it’s a way of looking at ourselves that recognizes that we each have different parts inside of us. And those parts have their own beliefs or programming based on our life experiences. Some parts try to prevent pain in our lives by working hard to manage the circumstances. And the people in our lives or to manage us. They might think, for example, that if only we could make people like us or do what we need them to do for us, then we would be happy and avoid pain. Now there are other parts of us that will spring into action if our other parts are unsuccessful in preventing that pain. What they don’t understand is that they want to use some methods to help us get that immediate relief. And learn how tell the difference between emotional abuse and normal conflict. The Bus Analogy To Heal From Emotional Abuse Natalie: When I tried to explain this to my children, I had some teenagers wanting to understand this, and I gave them this analogy of a bus. If you can imagine you are the driver of the bus, and you’re driving your bus through life, wherever you want to go. As the driver of our bus, this is my belief. Our creator didn’t put us in charge of anyone else’s bus, just our own. He didn’t put anyone else in charge of our bus, just us. We are the driver connected and at one with our creator. Though some of us may not know that. The other parts of us are on the bus. I imagined my other parts with all their ideas and thoughts. And about how to manage my life to prevent pain sitting on one side of my bus. Then on the other side of my bus were all my parts ready to fly into action when I felt a negative emotion. Way in the backseat of the bus are younger versions of us hiding and maybe curled up in the fetal position. And these young parts of us carry all our pain, past trauma, and confusion. Losing a friend in an accident. Growing up in poverty, or in an overly strict home. Or having a parent with a mental health issue or substance abuse issue. Or anything else that would have caused us harm or emotional pain. Listening To My Own Beliefs & Inner Thoughts Natalie: Sometimes, the parts on our bus disagree about what is the best course of action. They can judge each other. They fight. I used to think there was something wrong with me. Because I had all these opposing thoughts. I couldn’t figure out which ones I should obey. I kind of saw my inner voices, as just more of the little scary gods in my life, shouting orders. And threatening me if I didn’t do everything right. But now that I am aware of this, I’m not afraid of these little parts anymore. I can hear these thoughts in my head, and I think, oh, these are different parts of me. So that’s when I try to slow down and tune in. And listen to what each individual part is trying to communicate to me. I’m not listening to something outside myself. I listen to my own beliefs and inner thoughts. If I don’t ever slow things down and stop to listen, I’m never going to know what’s going on inside of me. And then I won’t have the self awareness that I need to address these issues that I’m struggling with. These parts of us, they also need an empathetic witness to determine if it’s emotional abuse or just regular conflict. And find peace and calm in our bodies. And we are, or can be, that empathetic witness for ourselves. I think it’s miraculous and comforting to know that our creator within us also partners with us inside of our core self to be that empathetic witness. Using Self- Compassion To Determine What’s Going On Natalie: Our opportunity and challenge is to address those parts of us confused and hurting, and move towards those parts in love and compassion. Finding what’s going on, and finding out what they believe. And then loosening up their thinking a little bit. So that those parts of us can experience the warmth, the light, and the love God has for us. Anne: That’s beautiful. It’s such a good way to describe it. I think the way you describe it is way more effective, but I’ve described it like this, it’s competing values. Because you’re like, I need to be safe, but I also want to be obedient, so trying to figure out what the best thing to do is. Natalie: Or even like, I need to be safe, but I also want to be vulnerable and have intimacy with someone. How do you get both things? Well, sometimes that depends on the other person, and figuring that out within yourself is so important. Because you don’t want to make yourself vulnerable to someone who isn’t safe to be around. Anne: Unfortunately, religion didn’t teach us about safety. They taught us about evil in a way that didn’t help us be safe. I think about that a lot, because there are so many people checking the religious boxes who are actually evil. They’re not safe at all. And yet they’re religious leaders, or they’re in that power over dynamic that is so harmful. And so deconstructing all that takes a long time, and it takes listening to yourself. Natalie: And we’re taught that we can’t trust ourselves. It’s interesting using the word safety. Why Do Religious Women Struggle To Identify Abuse? Natalie: We’re taught to glorify suffering. So when you’re not safe, you are suffering. So it’s almost like you’re glorifying being in a state of unsafety and hyper arousal to trauma, because that’s the spiritual thing to do. And of course, if you think that’s a problem, then you must not trust God. I just think many beliefs have been put in place by people who have really twisted the Bible. Or twisted religious thoughts to serve themselves and enable them to abuse people. I mean some of these guys will get involved with the distribution of intimate content without consent. When I was diagnosed with complex post-traumatic stress disorder, I started connecting the dots in my own life. I learned what CPTSD actually is—and I saw clearly how I ended up here. That clarity forced me to face something deeper: this wasn’t normal conflict. Something else had been happening all along. And there are three things that can trigger CPTSD. One is an uneven power dynamic. Which happens with women of faith in abusive marriages. There’s an uneven power dynamic when you are in a marriage with someone who is powering over you and abusing you. And then the second thing that can cause C PTSD is repetitive, prolonged trauma. So it’s not just one incident. It’s years and years of invalidation, criticism, gaslighting, all that kind of stuff happening over a period of time. Death by a million cuts, some people will say, or a million bee stings. And then the third part is, the perception that there is no escape. A lot of Christian women actually could get out, but they don’t think they can. Because they’ve been programmed to believe they’re not allowed to get a divorce. So that was dot number one. The Importance Of An Empathetic Witness Natalie: The second dot, the other missing piece in my life was an empathetic witness to my experiences. Nobody believed me. I felt like I was in a glass bubble for most of my life, suffocating, screaming and banging on the glass for someone to see me. And hear me and let me out. And people would just walk right by and completely ignore me. So there’s a lot of deflection and spiritualizing of abuse and pain in Christian circles. And there’s this theology too, in many Christian circles, that men have rights and privileges that women don’t have. And also that women are often blamed for many things, like being a stumbling block for men with our bodies. Or trying to emasculate men simply because we might have a different opinion or thought. Or maybe we could be more educated than them, or have a better idea than they do. And then we’re accused of emasculating men. Anne: Heaven forbid, I was accused of emasculating my ex, so yes. Natalie: So dehumanizing. I think the only way out of this mess is for the individual woman to find her own voice, power, and autonomy. And to take that back to herself. I believe now that we do that by turning toward ourselves and becoming that empathetic witness that we have needed our entire lives. This is how we heal our inner world. There’s also a theme throughout my life of missing a mother to show me what this looks like. I thought I ha…
The Truth About Betrayal Trauma Symptoms – When You Can’t Get The Right Help
Feb 11, 2025
Show notes
Do you have betrayal trauma symptoms? Did any professional that you went to help you understand that you are a victim of emotional and psychological abuse? If not, you’re not the only one. Attend one of our Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions to join a community of women who can validate and support you. Most Professionals Miss Betrayal Trauma Symptoms Tragically, family, friends, clergy, and therapists further abuse victims. When they don’t recognize that betrayal trauma symptoms are caused by emotional and psychological abuse and coercion. “That was the hardest part of my betrayal trauma symptoms. I felt like I was screaming, waving my arms for help, going to everyone I could think of, from clergy to therapists, and no one helped me.” Anne Blythe, Founder of BTR.ORG Women With Betrayal Trauma Symptoms Are Victims Of Abuse Many women in our community share that they did not understand where the betrayal trauma symptoms were coming from. They thought it was from the discovery of their husband’s infidelity or pornography use, and it was. But they didn’t know that his infidelity and use signaled that he was emotionally and psychologically abusive. To know if you’re a victim of emotional abuse, take our free emotional abuse quiz. What Are Common Betrayal Trauma Symptoms? Wondering if you are in betrayal trauma? Here are a few of the most common symptoms: Grief Numbness Rage Depression Insomnia and other sleep issues Difficulty eating or overeating Anxiety Terror Paranoia Headaches Body aches and pains At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we understand how to help you heal from betrayal trauma symptoms. Transcript: The Truth About Betrayal Trauma Symptoms Anne: I have Kathy or Justice Jones on today’s episode. She is a justice advocate who promotes outside the box solutions. And best practice responses to families living under the chronic oppression of abusers and counter-parents. I invited her here because the truth is that domestic abuse causes betrayal trauma symptoms. So we need to discuss domestic abuse and how professionals are missing it. Especially betrayal trauma professionals. They’re not identifying the symptoms of betrayal trauma as responses to emotional and psychological abuse, and coercion. So we’re going to talk about that today. Welcome Kathy. Kathy: Thank you for having me. Anne: Listeners to my podcast who have experienced this understand on a deeply personal level. How the entire system does not understand emotional and psychological abuse and coercion. And the continued abuse post separation or post divorce, when you’re fighting a narcissist for custody. So let’s look at the system as a whole, including court professionals, therapists, all the people involved. When you say trauma responsive professionals, do you mean people who actually really get it or people who just say they get it? And can you also talk about the difference between those two things? Kathy: Yes, certainly. The System’s Failure To Recognize Abuse Kathy: I’ve been hearing the code word “trauma informed” probably for about 10 years in national conferences and the like. It quickly became apparent to me that just because you’re trauma informed, it doesn’t mean you’re responsive. It doesn’t mean you take the knowledge imparted to you and actually work towards the benefit and healing of the survivor. Meaning that if you’re a trauma informed professional, trauma informed is not enough. Even in your good intentions, you may be acting in ways or putting the survivor in situations that actually aggravate or re-traumatize that victim. Anne: From my perspective, there are so many so-called “betrayal trauma therapists.” Or even addiction recovery therapists, or other therapists who say they’re trauma informed. But they don’t understand anything about abuse and abuse dynamics. And so their counsel to the victim with betrayal trauma symptoms ends up harming the victim more. Many women don’t know this when they are looking for a therapist for their abusive husband. Kathy: So the first story I have for you is eight years ago. I worked at my local domestic violence crisis center, and was invited to become part of a local mental health program. Part of their invitation was so that I could inform their practices to do domestic violence related issues better than what they knew. It was a real opportunity for me. And the first training I provided for these folks, they were wonderful people, but it became clear they did not know enough about domestic violence, counter-parenting, and just any issue related to family violence. Lack Of Training In Domestic Abuse Kathy: So I was compelled to ask the question of the 15 people in the room. They had well over 300 years total of real time practice working with families, and they could only come up with maybe 15 hours of domestic violence or family violence training. And that included their college career. And I was horrified. Anne: That’s very typical, or even less than that. Kathy: Even less than that. I committed myself that day to making sure this particular practice got a lot more training than they had. In fact, they asked me to do a training session for mental health practitioners across the state of New Hampshire. But still, it was not enough to address the dearth of information that goes into the programming for mental health practitioners. Another eye opening incident. I was conducting a retreat, and we asked the participants, there were about 24 of them in the room. How many of you have been into counseling for addressing the domestic violence issues and betrayal trauma symptoms you were dealing with? 23 of those women raised their hands. And then I said, I’d like to ask, how many of you were actually helped by that counseling? And none of them raised their hands. Then they started sharing stories about how their CSAT therapist actually encouraged them to stay in the abuse. To try a little harder, and stay a little longer. Anne: Communicate a little better. Kathy: Yeah, communicate a little better. Anne: Tell them what your boundaries are. Tell them what you expect. The Danger Of Couples Therapy In Treating Betrayal Trauma Symptoms Kathy: What was most interesting was that there were women in that room who were also mental health practitioners. And they were really distressed by the line of questioning. And eventually, after conversations after the retreat, one of them got back to me and said, like, that was eye opening for me. Even though she was one of the people acknowledging, hey, mental health practitioners didn’t help me with betrayal trauma symptoms. They, in fact, contributed to my pain. Anne: I’ve found that therapists in general do not understand this. When someone goes in for help, they do not approach it from the right angle, especially couples therapy. Kathy: Couples therapy should not even be a thing. As soon as domestic violence is identified, an ethical mental health practitioner will say, “I’m sorry, I cannot provide services in a conjoined therapeutic session. We need to do this separately.” Anne: Even if it’s separate, they still don’t understand. Like sometimes that same therapist will relay information from the victim to the perpetrator. Like, Hey, she doesn’t like it when you yada, yada, which puts her in further danger. Kathy: Absolutely, yep. Anne: It’s so, so dangerous. The emotional and psychological abuse and the coercion piece are so misunderstood that. I’m concerned about anyone going to therapy, not that I’m like anti-therapy, that’s not what I’m trying to say. But for victims of abuse, it’s not the right way to go if they don’t understand they’re being abused. Because they don’t understand themselves. And because the therapist only knows what they see, they’re not going to help that victim identify that they are being abused. Kathy: Well, again, I can share another story. When Therapy Makes Things Worse Kathy: This one, my personal account where I was being abused by my ex-husband and decided to go into couples therapy. Because that was what I was encouraged to do. But my ex-husband wouldn’t go. Because, you know, I was the one who had all the problems. And I went anyway, it was with a couple who provided the therapy. And they were, again, lovely people, but their words created a lot of damage. One of the things they said to me, even after I disclosed that my ex-husband dumped hot spaghetti sauce on me. Because I had made spaghetti for dinner instead of pork chops. They said, well, you need to confess your sins to him and ask him for his forgiveness. And I was like, what? And that was the last time I ever went for counseling. Again, like you, I’m not anti-counseling, but mental health practitioners must understand domestic violence. Before they should provide any level of care for domestic violence and assault, coercion, and coercive control victims. Anne: Now, many listeners come to this podcast because their husband uses online explicit material, or has an affair. And they find out that he’s been lying and gaslighting. So when someone, like a guest, or when I use the term domestic violence. They are like, oh, well, this must not be for me, because this isn’t a domestic violence situation. So I tend to use the word domestic abuse to help them understand that it is an abuse issue. But also, it’s a violence issue. Emotional & Psychological Violence The Broader Scope Of Domestic Abuse Anne: It’s emotionally and psychologically violent. Kathy: Yep. Anne: In our daily online support group for betrayal trauma, we don’t specialize in physical violence per se, but physical violence will never happen in a vacuum. It’s always going to be preceded by emotional and psychological abuse. So it is under the umbrella of domestic violence. Women who are here and hearing this word. If you’re like, he doesn’t punch me in the face. This isn’t a domestic violence issue. It might be an abuse issue, it is a domestic violence issue. It is under that umbrella, and it is violence in emotional and psychological ways. Kathy: Absolutely, 100%. The thing that I would say to those women who say that to themselves. The reason why you may not have seen physical violence yet is because the emotional and non-physical forms of violence he’s using against you are working. They’re doing what he wants them to do. Every single abuser is absolutely 100% capable of utilizing that more physical form of violence to maintain their dominance in a relationship. I would say between 60 and 65 percent of the women I work with have not experienced severe physical violence. And when I say severe, I’m talking about something other than pushing or pulling. Anne: Even just standing over them. Kathy: Punching a wall, throwing things, breaking the victim’s things. Those are all physical forms of violence. None of them are okay, by the way. I’m not trying to minimize the effect of those, but I’m saying, societally, we don’t think it’s a big deal. Until these abusers punch us in the eyes, and there’s a lot more that comes before that that is part of domestic violence. The Role Of Mental Health Professionals In Treating Betrayal Trauma Symptoms Kathy: Even though mental health professionals were the reason to do training. I have to say to my shame and regret that domestic violence crisis centers were another reason why. And police departments, judges, and guardians ad litem, the whole system of people out there were the reasons why. But the other reason was that I needed to succinctly lay out what are trauma informed practices. Even though I’m certain there are way more trauma informed practices. I tried to boil it down to these ten. What trauma survivors need to feel safe. As far as I’m concerned, it’s the most courageous act that any survivor can do is become vulnerable enough to say to somebody else, I need help. I can’t do this alone. Anne: And then that vulnerable moment having the trauma compounded is so difficult. It’s happened to so many of us here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery. Which is exactly why I started Betrayal Trauma Recovery. I spent seven years with my emotionally and psychologically abusive ex in addiction recovery. No one said anything about abuse. Kathy: I’m really sorry. Anne: For seven years, I’m suffering the symptoms of betrayal trauma under the care of so-called therapeutic professionals. Not knowing that I was being abused. Not only by my ex, but also by proxy, yeah, by the system. It was so awful. Kathy: I’m really sorry that happened to you. Anne: Well, and that’s why I thought, I’ve got to get the word out. Don’t go down any other route until you know about abuse. Once you understand abuse well, and you can say, okay, this isn’t abuse. So maybe I can go to therapy, then you’d be in okay shape. The Danger Of Misguided Therapy Anne: But if you go there first without knowing about abuse, they’re not going to help you understand it in general. Maybe someone will help. Luckily, some guests on this podcast shared how they went to a particular therapist and received help. So that’s good. I’m not trying to say everybody’s like that. Kathy: And I’m so happy to hear those successful stories when they happen. I’m like, yeah, Anne: I don’t know. Kathy: But it’s very few and far between. Anne: It is. And I do not want to discount your list. But I think it’s interesting how some people are like, well, I went to this training. And you could succinctly spell out what needs to happen or a list of what needs to happen. And the practitioner or court professional or helper thinks, okay, I got it. No problem. And then they talked to the victim and they think, oh, well, this doesn’t apply to her because… Kathy: She’s not a victim. Anne: Because he’s telling me this isn’t what’s going on. And immediately, nothing they just learned is helpful to her. So you just need people who have been through it. Because training doesn’t help professionals either. If they don’t truly understand it, they can’t get past his manipulation. Kathy: It’s an important point, because here’s the thing. Anytime you see a list like this, it shouldn’t be a check off. Of, yep, I did that, yep, I did that, yep, I did that. These lists should be utilized to take a good, long, hard look at how you conduct yourself. With, for instance, a trauma survivor, and say, will these people say these things about me? Listening Without Blame Or Judgment Kathy: This is about getting professionals to think about this trauma survivor. I just worked with someone who identified herself as a trauma survivor. What is she gonna say about me on this app? Anne: The first item on your list. It’s not funny, but I’m smiling to myself a little bit, and I’ll tell you why. It says, listen to adult or child victims without blame or judgment. The reason why I am thinking of myself in this moment is because when I hear a victim, victim blame themselves, I listen without blame or judgment. But I always want to sort of set them straight, right? Like, no, no, no, this is not your fault. Nope. And it can sound invalidating to victims experiencing betrayal trauma symptoms. Which I feel bad about, but I want to invalidate the self-abuse. I want to invalidate the ideas they have about themselves that came from the abuser. That they don’t recognize is abuse, and it’s not their fault that they don’t recognize it. It’s sort of a Catch 22 for someone who understands abuse to listen and redirect the truth of what’s going on. Which is a totally different thing, and not why you wrote this. Because you were intending to call out people who say, well, what could you have done better? Kathy: I have to go back and speak to the issue you were just talking about. Because it’s not just the abuser that gives the victim the perspective of, well, you’re to blame too, and this is what you’re doing wrong. That’s what you’re doing wrong, our entire society does it. The Symptoms Of Betrayal Trauma & Power Dynamics In Abuse Kathy: There’s no more popular social activity out there than…
When Your Husband Apologizes – How To Know If It’s Genuine
Feb 04, 2025
Show notes
If your husband never apologizes, that’s a problem. But there’s an even bigger problem many people don’t talk about: if your husband apologizes, how do you know if it’s genuine? Especially if he has a history of lying. Here are five key patterns to watch for and how to tell whether his apology is truly genuine, especially if you’re considering reconciliation after infidelity. This applies whether you’re still married or not—and I’ll share a personal example from after my divorce later. 1. Does HIS APOLOGY FOCUs ON ONE Small MOMENT, WHILE IGNORING THE BIG PICTURE? My husband would get mad at me almost every single night over the smallest things. And then one morning he said, “I’m so sorry about last night.” But what about the 52 nights that came before that or the credit card I still didn’t know he had? He was apologizing for one leaf and I was living in a whole forest of issues. If your husband pressures you to accept an apology for one incident while ignoring his pattern of lying, manipulation, or harm…he’s not taking ownership of his problem. Notice what he leaves out. Omissions often tell you more than the apology itself. 2. IF YOUR HUSBAND APOLOGIZES, DO YOU STILL FEEL UNEASY? I felt relief in the moment when he apologized, but worse later. In the moment I thought it was a breakthrough, like maybe I wasn’t gonna have to drag this marriage up a hill by myself anymore. But then later I’d be brushing my teeth thinking, Why did I have to beg him to apologize? Many women expect to feel relief after an apology, but if your husband has had a history of being dishonest and diminishing the impact of his behavior, that feeling of uneasiness is often a signal, not a personal flaw. Give yourself space to observe instead of deciding what it “means” right away. 3. IS HIS APOLOGY BACKED BY CONSISTENT BEHAVIOR? My husband sometimes cried when he apologized, but he would never cry in the moment when I was really hurting. This one really got me because I realized that when I was trying to share my concerns with him he didn’t really care. He just wanted the conversation to end. So why is he empathetic now that he is apologizing? Sometimes it’s hard to tell if he’s truly sorry for what he did, or sorry he’s facing consequences. And improving communication can’t fix the impact of emotional abuse and infidelity, no matter how often you’re told it will. Watch his behavior, not his explanations. His actions will tell you the truth. 4. DOES HIS APOLOGY COME WITH PRESSURE TO RECONCILe? This sounded like, “I’m so sorry. Can I move back in now?” Or “I’m sorry. Are we done talking about this now?” That pressure was the tell that my husband’s apology wasn’t genuine. Many women are told: “If your husband apologizes, you should forgive him and move forward together.” But those are two different things. Forgiveness is something you can do for yourself. Reconciliation requires evidence of change. You can forgive and maintain distance. 5. DOES HIS APOLOGY RESPECT YOUR NEED FOR EMOTIONAL SAFETY? My husband’s apologies gave me hope, but I didn’t realize hope was a manipulation tactic. True emotional safety and manufactured hope are not the same thing. If he’s finally telling you what you’ve always wanted to hear, it doesn’t mean you owe him anything and you don’t have to decide anything today. If you’re trying to make sense of his behavior—not just his words—take our free emotional abuse quiz for more clarity. Transcript: When Your Husband Apologizes, How Do You Know If It’s Genuine? Anne: So years ago, I recorded a podcast episode about how I receive a restitution letter in the mail, and my husband apologized. In the mail from my then ex husband after we were divorced. If you’ve ever received an apology from your husband or ex husband, it seems like he’s showing remorse. And you’re wondering, can my husband change, what does this mean? Is this genuine? This is the episode for you. If you need support in understanding if your husband is really changing, check out our Group Session Schedule. It’ll also give you a snapshot of how I felt years ago. I was still hurting and confused. Just a quick recap. Before we married, he lied to me and was abusive, but I wasn’t aware of it. Because he manipulated me and presented himself as somebody he wasn’t. Instead, I just thought he had an anger problem and needed to go to therapy. Escalating Abuse When Your Husband Apologizes And Tries to Make Restitution Anne: He said he would go to therapy. But continues to lie to me and yell in my face, two inches from my face. He continued to lie about his explicit material use. I believe now, he manipulated me and lied to me about his use our whole marriage. Still lying about it, not only to me, but also to large groups of people as he’s doing public speaking. Then, came his arrest for domestic violence. Then doing nothing to acknowledge what has happened at all. And, not trying to get back in the home, not trying to repent, not trying to take accountability, not being honest, and not being humble in any way. Then he files for divorce, claiming it’s because I’m not forgiving him or something like that. Now I want to tell you a little bit about what happens on the day my husband apologized for. In 2015, we spoke at UCAP. He and I were going to speak together about how he recovered from his addiction and how to do it successfully. However, both before and after the speech, his abusive behaviors were escalating. He put holes in a bunch of our walls. He broke his door. At that time, I thought, well, this is part of the recovery process. So we spoke at UCAP. Right after I said, “You’ve got to shut down your website”. I can’t do this with you anymore. This is a sham, and he got more and more angry. The Turning Point: Legoland Incident Anne: That summer we go to Legoland, and on the way there I am driving, he grabs my head in the car violently and screams at me to shut up in front of my children. I was so terrified that once we parked, I jumped out of the car with my kids and ran into the Legoland hotel. And I just sat there and cried for a while, and then handed my kids to my parents. I thought, well, I guess I can’t leave him in the car. So as I was walking back to the car to get him, I was praying out loud, like, please, I need a miracle. I need a miracle. I cannot do this anymore. The rest of the day at Legoland, he screamed at me in public, in front of my parents and a bunch of other people. It was awful. And on the way home, I was sobbing uncontrollably, still driving, just to try and get him to calm down and stop. I said, I want you to know that no matter how abusive and terrible you are to me, I will always be respectful to you. I’m sorry if I was not respectful today in confronting you about your abuse, more or less. I can’t remember exactly what it was, but it was something like that. And he looked at me with the most evil, look in his eyes and said good. How do I know you’ll never act like that again? He blamed me for HIS emotional abuse. There was no remorse, there was no anything. There’s no acknowledgement of me crying, I was taken aback by his response. I was horrified. So the rest of the trip, I tried to avoid him as much as possible. Understanding Restitution vs. Forgiveness When Your Husband Apologizes Anne: I slept in a separate bed. He wondered why he couldn’t be close to me, and why I didn’t want to kiss him. So before I read the so-called restitution letter he sent, where my husband apologized. I want to talk about the difference between what modern clergy and maybe therapists say about restitution. Which they frequently confuse with forgiveness. My church had their semi-annual conference. In conference to illustrate the “power of forgiveness,” one of the speakers shared a story. About a drunk driver who had killed a couple, a husband and wife. He shares this touching part of the story, where after the drunk driver is sentenced for manslaughter. The parents of the couple killed, and the parents of the drunk driver, broke down in tears and gave each other hugs in the hall of the courthouse. He wanted to show this as a beautiful moment of forgiveness. And as I listened to the story, I was like, this story of forgiveness has all the right elements. It has the element of justice, the element of truth, which is what makes forgiveness possible. Reconciliation wasn’t even on the table, because the drunk driver went to jail and the couple was dead. Even if the couple wasn’t dead, they didn’t need to reconcile because they didn’t live in the same house. There is no way that he would have a touching story of the “power of forgiveness.” If the parents of the drunk driver claimed, your son and your daughter, the ones killed, it’s their fault that our son was drinking. It’s their fault that this accident happened, and it’s their fault that now our son is in jail. Even though the story of forgiveness in the conference I heard is intended to motivate people to forgive. The Reality of Separation and Evil Anne: There are countless stories in the scriptures where God commands the righteous to separate from the wicked. And for some reason, clergy often doesn’t suggest the most likely place to separate yourself from someone who is wicked or abusive is in your own home. One woman who works in the anti-abuse sphere said, “I don’t believe in evil,” on her Instagram. And I could not disagree more. I believe in evil. I’ve seen it in my ex-husband’s eyes and in his face. He really genuinely looked possessed. His eyes were kind of glazed over. It was like he wasn’t even there. Or when he would verbally assault me, or when he would punch walls or yell. It was so scary. It was like those films where the victims know they’re not safe, screaming and yelling. Please stop, but no matter how much they plead for mercy or kindness, the bad guys refused. I want to give two analogies before I read this apology letter from my husband. Analogies to Understand Abuse Anne: The first is the analogy of a tree. Imagine your marriage and family is a beautiful oak tree, and you have spent years, years, and years planting it, digging around it and nourishing it. And then your husband starts hacking off random branches all the time, and you’re asking him to stop. You’re saying please, please don’t do that. I love this tree. It means a lot to me. Please don’t do that. And he just keeps doing it, and he’ll hack off a branch, and then he’ll say I’m so sorry I did that. I love you. I care about you. And the next thing, you know, there’s another branch on the driveway sitting there, and you’re like, what is going on? I thought we already talked about this. And then one day, in my case, he came and ripped the entire tree out. All that is left is a gaping hole. So that’s the first analogy I want to use. The second one is as if a murderer broke into my home at night, killed my family with a machine gun, and left my house in complete disarray. The walls have bullet holes all over, there’s blood all over the place, and walked out and did not acknowledge what happened, was not arrested, was not held accountable in any way. And then told people. Yeah, I just went to this home and then got attacked, and I am the victim in this situation. Okay, so those are the two analogies. When Your Husband Apologizes: Analyzing Its Meaning Anne: So the restitution letter I received validates he’s abusive. I can clearly see absolutely no change. I am not sure why he sent this. Either number one, someone broke up with him or he’d had a bad day, or he felt super bad that we were going on a trip and he couldn’t come with us. There’s that. If he wrote it of his own volition and didn’t tell anyone about it and is not using it as a, look, I wrote this restitution letter and she still won’t talk to me. And If he really genuinely wrote it and hasn’t used it to brag to other people as part of his story of being a “victim,” Then I can see that perhaps there’s some part of him that understands or can see the harm he’s caused, just a tiny, tiny part. If, on the other hand, clergy instigated this or a therapist or someone who said, well, she doesn’t talk to you. Maybe you need to write a restitution letter. So someone instigated it. So now he can say, well, I’ve written a restitution letter, and she still won’t talk to me. Then I don’t feel like this is any sign of him recognizing what he’s done wrong. So this is the letter I receive, in it my husband apologizes. Anne, our son informed me that you may be going to Legoland during your trip to California over spring break. I’m glad to hear that you are taking the children to California and possibly Legoland. I hope it is a safe and enjoyable vacation for all. I am writing to apologize for my negative and hurtful behavior. During that trip to California and Legoland in 2015. Your Husband Apologizes With A Token Gesture Anne: I acted in an irritable manner and said and did hurtful things during that vacation, which made it difficult for you and the rest of the family to enjoy that vacation. I am sorry. It’s hard to have the memories of that vacation overshadowed by the difficulties I caused. I hope you can forgive me and enjoy the upcoming trip. I have enclosed a $300 check as a token of my apology, in an effort to make some restitution for the difficulties I caused during that trip to California. Most sincerely, Chuck. His name is not Chuck, I am changing it to protect his anonymity. So let me talk about the $300 check first, even though he’s apologizing. He refused to give me $100,000 back in pre-marital assets. I used money from before our marriage. Money that my parents gave me, that my grandma gave me, and money that I had from a condo I owned to pay off his law school loans. That money I earned before we married. And he refused to give it back, which confused me so much because our whole marriage was a lie. So I expected him to at least be accountable for that and say, yeah, I will give you back the $100, 000 you had before we married, but he refused. So, I cashed the $300 check, but it means nothing to me without the full restitution for that $100, 000 in premarital assets. Including all the financial difficulties I have had due to his choices. At Betrayal Trauma Recovery we understand that abuse includes lying, manipulating, explicit material use, and infidelity of any kind. We’re throwing all these serious behaviors into the category of abuse, which is the only way we can look at it. When Your Husband Apologizes, Observe His Character Anne: At the time I got this restitution letter, I was observing from a safe distance to see if he would choose to change his character. If your wondering if an emotionally abusive husband will change, I’ve observed that it’s impossible to externally motivate an abusive man to change, especially because his exploitative privilege comes with so many rewards. What we see in our communities is that emotionally and psychologically abusive men will be reluctant to make significant changes, but they’re not reluctant to apologize or tell people that they’re going to make changes. They’re just reluctant to actually make the changes and how they relate to you. Because for him, it’s a transactional situation. And because it’s transactional for him. Persuasion, logic, pleading, begging, getting him in some men’s program. Even when he’s in the men’s program, he’s going to convince the therapist that he’s incredible and amazing. He won’t actually change his behavior, because then he’d lose his ability to exploit you. And that’s what a “relationship” is to him, it’s a transactionship. And so he’s like, what’s the point of being in a relationship with this person if I can’t exploit her? What would I get out of it? The Illusion Of Your Husband Changing: Performative Apolgies Anne: Because of that, most emotionally and psychologically abusive men, addicts as some people call them, don’t choose to rid themselves of all the privileges the abuse gives t…
Warning Signs Of An Abusive Therapist: What To Look For
Jan 28, 2025
Show notes
Is therapy causing you to feel worse? Do you keep going, thinking maybe the next session will be the breakthrough? Here are the warning signs of an abusive therapist every woman needs to be aware of. Amy Nordhues, a victim of an abusive therapist, and author of Prayed Upon, joined Anne Blythe, M.Ed. on The FREE Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast to talk about the warning signs of an abusive therapist. If you relate and need support, attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session TODAY. Transcript: Warning Signs Of An Abusive Therapist: What To Look For Anne: Amy Nordhues is on the podcast today. She’s a survivor of both childhood sex abuse and abuse as an adult at the hands of a mental health professional. She is a passionate follower of Christ and expert on the healing God provides. She has a B.A. in psychology and minors in sociology and criminology. Her devotions are in the Secret Place devotional series. Her memoir, Prayed Upon, won the Inspire Christian Writers Great Openings Contest for nonfiction and the Next Generation Indie Award for inspirational nonfiction. As a married mother of three, she enjoys spending time with family, writing, reading, photography, and all things comedy. We will talk about warning signs of an abusive therapist today. Welcome, Amy. Amy: Hi, it’s so good to be here. Anne: We have comedy in common. When I first learned about my husband’s lying and deceit. I actually started writing comedy to deal with it, like to process it. So I wrote a comedy blog for a few years that wasn’t showing what was actually happening. When my book comes out, I will actually publish that comedy blog in book form simultaneously. So that you can see what was happening. Amy: Oh, interesting. Anne: I think a lot of comedians use jokes to deal with their trauma. Amy: Yes. Anne: So maybe we’ll make a few abuse jokes today. Amy: Yeah. Anne: Oh, wow, don’t worry. My audience, my audience gets it because they’re all abuse victims. The Pastor’s Wife’s Suggested This Therapist Anne: So let’s start with your story. Amy: Yeah, I started attending Celebrate Recovery. I wanted to work on issues from past abuse and a disconnected marriage. I had depression and anxiety. And when I was in that program, the pastor’s wife became my mentor, and at some point she recommended I see this therapist. He was also a psychiatrist, which was good because he can manage my medications. He was an elder at the church where the Celebrate Recovery was hosted. I had just started attending there. So it seemed to line up perfectly. So I started to see him, and he was an odd character, more like a bumbling grandpa. Very Christian, wore a cross necklace, sweet, kind of goofy, and right away he played a father figure role. He learned that was something I didn’t have. So he played into that, and at first it seemed like an answer to prayer. It seemed like my depression was lifting. I started to see I guess you could say red flags in this relationship. Anne: At the time, what was your thought process? Did you know they were red flags? Would you define them that way? Can you talk about your thought process? Amy: In retrospect, I realized the red flags started from day one, and those things I didn’t see as red flags. I just thought they were quirky, silly, like he would get an afghan out of his cupboard. And like kind of match it to what clothing I was wearing. And then playfully cover me with it. Well, my alarm bells went off. But I certainly didn’t think this is a predator trying to weasel his way into my personal space or see them as warning signs of an abusive therapist. The First Red Flags: Coerced Shoulder & Foot Rubs Amy: I thought, this is just a silly, older gentleman therapist trying to put me at ease in an awkward therapy situation. He would bring me tea, and I didn’t see any harm in that. We both would drink tea during the sessions. So they were little things like that. And I brushed them off. But when he offered to rub my feet or shoulders for a Christmas present, I panicked, he’d never touched me in a session. He sat across from me in his chair, and the sad reality is that I didn’t think I could say no. I had voices screaming in my head, like, pick one, pick one, this is awkward, this is brutally awkward. So I said, shoulders. He came over and sat next to me in the chair and started to rub my shoulders. And I panicked and said, “feet, feet,” just to get him away. And the touch felt creepy. Sadly, I say sadly, because now I wish I could have just stood up and left. But I kind of slumped down in my chair and put my feet on the ottoman, and allowed him to rub my feet. Anne: Because we reject victim blaming here at betrayal trauma recovery, would you feel comfortable saying coerced rather than allowed? Amy: Yeah, I didn’t think no was a choice. Anne: Right, so that’s coercion, right? Amy: Do it quickly, and get it over with, or put it off. And then still do it. Anne: Right, and it’s coercion. Amy: It is coercion. Anne: This isn’t you allowing him to do this. This is you are coerced to do this because you feel like you have no other option. However, these were definitely warning signs of an abusive therapist. The Pastor’s Wife Didn’t See The Warning Signs Of An Abusive Therapist Amy: Right. It was the most awkward, uncomfortable thing I could ever imagine. And on top of that, I felt like it was my job to make the room feel more comfortable for the discomfort he caused me. So, as we continue to talk in therapy, I’m like, look him in the eyes, ignore him rubbing your feet, ignore it. You’re making this worse, as if this is a problem I brought on. It’s just so unfair. I ran this red flag by my mentor. Again, she was an elder at our church, and she was the pastor’s wife. I wasn’t seeing it as a sinister red flag, but I was seeing it as a very weird red flag. And when I told her, she said, “He’s so sweet.” Anne: He was married at the time? Amy: Yes, he’s married. He was 65 years old. Anne: Okay, so he’s 65. He’s physically coercing clients and also emotionally and physically cheating on his wife. Another example of warning signs of an abusive therapist. Amy: Yes. Anne: And she’s saying he’s so sweet. This probably isn’t the first time she’s heard this then. Amy: After this whole nightmare ended. I learned another young lady, younger than me. Who she was also mentoring was sitting on his lap in sessions. So she was almost like a pawn in this whole scam. Anne: The pastor’s wife? https://youtu.be/jUZiLsuSFNU Therapist’s Grooming Others To Downplay Inappropriate Behavior Amy: Yes, I feel like because she suggested him to me. She knew this young woman, who committed suicide under his care 20 years prior, was sitting on his lap during sessions. Anne: What? Amy: Yeah, it devastated me. I thought, and you sent me to him. And I don’t think she was in on it with him per se. I think she was unhealthy. Anne: Right, she didn’t understand coercion. She didn’t view these behaviors as warning signs of an abusive therapist. Amy: Yeah, and believed the people going to him were so mentally ill. He was doing everything in his power to help them, and so maybe he had to try more unconventional means. Anne: There’s that. And the addiction industry in general, or therapists who work with addicts in general, believe addicts. So if an addict is sitting in an addiction therapist’s office. And the addict says, “Well, if my wife would do this, or if she would do this, things would be better.” Like if she were more kind to me or if she respected me more. And so it’s this racket where the addict husband and the addict therapist end up abusing the wife more and more over time. Amy:Yeah, and these predators, don’t start abusing victims until they have everyone around them adequately groomed. They have all the pieces lined up. He even had the confidence, even though it backfired on him. But he had the confidence to go after me, knowing I was good friends with the pastor’s wife. That’s how much he thought he’d get away with it. Anne: Absolutely. Isolation & Emotional Manipulation Are Signs Of An Abusive Therapist Amy: I keep going, I think, yeah, he’s a little kooky and I let it go. We did a very odd spiritual type therapy, which just added to the confusion because I was a new Christian. There were many effects of spiritual abuse from him. was looking for Christian help for infidelity. Then there was another huge red flag of an abusive therapist. I shared with him during one of my sessions that I imagined myself dancing with Jesus. Like a father-daughter dance at a wedding. That was not something I ever had, and how it was kind of a sweet thought. So the next time I show up for therapy, he says, “I thought we could dance.” And I just felt my face go beet red, and I just wanted to escape through a trap door. Again, leaving wasn’t an option. I figured it out quickly. Because you’re making this more uncomfortable by sitting here being uncomfortable. Again, the burden falls on the victim. Anne: Absolutely, think about an actual caring, empathetic person. Not even a therapist. They’re going to see that look flash across your face. They’re going to be like, “Oh, do you want to, how do you feel about it?” An empathetic person would have some type of awareness. Amy: Oh yeah. Anne: When your face goes red or when you look confused, abusers just plow right through that like, she didn’t say anything so I can move forward. Amy: I think I covered my face. I was that uncomfortable. In my head I’m thinking, you mentioned dancing, he’s trying to help you, it’s a therapeutic thing. He’s 65. And since standing up and walking away wasn’t an option. Number one, I thought that was rude. Resisting Abuse Through “Getting It Over With”: Signs Of An Abusive Therapist Amy: And number two, I was connected to him at this time. He made sure I was emotionally attached. He had isolated me more by this time. I really thought he was the source of me feeling better, getting better. So I made myself do it. It was brutal, and when it was over, I thought, this never has to happen again. Anne: I want to point out the resistance here. So as a victim, you are resisting through “getting it over with.” Victims think, why didn’t I stop it? And I want to point out that getting it done quickly, because you don’t think you have a choice, is a form of resisting abuse. So you are resisting abuse every step of the way here. Your face is turning red. You’re putting your face in your hands. You’re trying to be safe. So as you’re resisting, he has multiple times where he can make a different choice and not abuse you. But he just keeps manipulating you and pushing forward. Yet more warning signs of an abusive therapist. Amy: I appreciate you saying that, and feel like many of your listeners will understand that. I think some people judge harshly, and they think it’s really easy. You just stand up and leave, or you slap them across the face and you leave. They don’t understand the layers upon layers of manipulation that have already formed a web around you. Continual Manipulation & Being Afraid Or Feeling Too Guilty To Leave Amy: That’s when they make bigger moves, when they know you won’t leave. When they know you’re too afraid to leave or feel too guilty to leave, whatever it is. And I ran that by my close friend, and again, she thought it was sweet. And then I worked up the courage to tell her that he touched an inappropriate body part while we were dancing. Something snapped in her, and she said, “I trust him implicitly.” And I knew in that moment I was on my own, so I didn’t share anything else with her. I thought, I will fix this relationship with the therapist. It’s just gone off the rails a little bit. Maybe it was my fault. It always feels like our fault. If I wasn’t needy and didn’t like the idea of a father figure, then I wouldn’t have caused these things to happen. And what’s really sad is that in therapy, you’re so vulnerable. I gave him the information he could use against me. Anne: Exactly. Amy: And when I’m providing the information and then he uses it against me, I feel like I’m the one who brought it up. But all I’m doing is going to therapy. It makes it extra confusing. Well, you said you imagine, well no. I didn’t say I want to dance with you or I want a romantic relationship with you. Anne: You were resisting abuse the entire time. Feeling in your gut that these are warning signs of an abusive therapist. So this is just an aside for comedic relief. And how is you cheating on your wife, helping me therapeutically? Wanting To Escape But Manipulated Amy: Oh, like, he’s going above and beyond to help me. And part of me believed it was a blessing that he was going above and beyond, but not at the time, I just wanted to escape. Anne: I want to point out more resisting abuse. So you go for help from your friend and you realize instinctively that she’s not safe. Even if you don’t have the words for it. And so you pull back, which is a form of resistance. At every step, you’re trying to figure out how to get out of this. Amy: Yes, it feels like you’re in a maze, and you hit this wall. And with telling her that, I hit that wall. That was one of my escape opportunities. I was counting on that one, too. I just was crushed when she said that. And then even more, it made me start thinking, no one’s gonna believe me. He’s a doctor, therapist, and church elder, and he’s 20 years my senior. Who else am I gonna tell? And if I tell someone who maybe hasn’t ever been in therapy or hasn’t had my specific issues. They’re gonna jump on me right away. They’re gonna say, it’s your fault because you went back. So then you’re more isolated, and then it keeps going, and sadly the abuser becomes the comforter, because he’s the only one who understands the abuse he’s inflicting on you. It’s a very twisted situation. Anne: And he is doing it on purpose, so that he can comfort you. He creates the problem so that he can be the solution, which is a very intense form of manipulation. Therapist’s Romantic Advances: He Told Me He Loved Me Amy: Yes, it’s like who else is there? Anne: Mm hmm. Amy: He’s the only one left. And they can turn on the charm when they need to. I’ll skip to the end. There’s only a few more months of therapy, and my panic is just rising. At this point, he’s turning up the heat, and it’s he loves me and … Anne: Woah, woah. Turning up the heat, like he’s in love with you romantically? Amy: Okay, this is the way he weaseled into it. He had established himself as a father figure, right? And I feel he was stuck in that role. So he started saying the key was that my heart loves you like a father. But the teenage part of me loves you in a romantic way. Well, I didn’t know what to do with that. I was like, what does that even mean? And then I thought, well, maybe that’s how all males feel. Anne: Addiction therapists want people to think, oh, this is how men are, rather than this is wrong. Amy: Right? So I’m thinking, well, he’s not gonna act on that teenage part. He’s just admitting that, and that’s vulnerable for him to say. Anne: Also very creepy. Amy: Super creepy. I mean, I was in panic mode for days and weeks. Like coming home I’m just twirling my hair and pacing around the house like I don’t know how to digest this information. And again, I didn’t think we were on a trajectory towards abuse. I thought these were random incidences, not warning signs of an abusive therapist. So I thought, okay, he’s just fallen in love with this patient. Grooming Was A Warning Sign Of An Abusive Therapist Amy: Maybe that’s common for therapists, but he’s not going to act on it, he’s not going to do anything about it. Anne: When you say on the trajectory for abuse, you didn’t think you were on the trajectory. But even just talking now, he had been abusing you from the beginning. It’s like, I don’t realize this is where it’s going, but then I also don’t realize this has been the intent from day one. Amy: No, I have no…
The Best Way To Heal After Emotional Abuse
Jan 21, 2025
Show notes
If you’re wondering how to get back to yourself after emotional abuse, listen to how Anne Blythe, M.Ed. came back to herself through writing, exercise, and boundaries.
Transcript: How To Get Back To Yourself After Emotional Abuse
Anne: A few years ago, I was doing an interview for The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast. There was this freaky Friday situation. and the guest started interviewing me. I wanted to replay a portion of that episode for you today.
Juliane: What are some steps you’re taking and have taken that have helped you regain your own sense of balance?
Healing Through Writing After Emotional Abuse
Anne: I’m a writer. Writing has been healing for me. I wrote every abuse episode that I could think of. Every instance of gaslighting. Every instance of emotional or psychological abuse helped me sort out what was real, what wasn’t real. It was like a hundred pages. It was crazy. When I started using that as a draft to write my book, because I want to give people concrete examples. Like when my husband said he didn’t love me. I was so sick of my own story.
I thought that was a good sign after emotional abuse. So instead of thinking, I have to prove that he was abusive, which is how I felt before. Now that I’m healed more, I don’t need to process that anymore. Now I’m deleting huge sections out of it, because now I’m thinking, which examples will help other women?
Juliane: And you don’t have to prove why it was so crazy making for you.
Anne: Yeah, totally.
Reclaiming Physical Health After Emotional Abuse
Anne: My no contact boundary is actually the most helpful thing to me. Because any interaction with him is insane, focusing on my own physical health has been good. I’ve always been really athletic, and everything went out the window the moment I married him.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZj_YL19POM
I didn’t ski anymore or mountain bike anymore. And I didn’t row anymore. I didn’t do any of the things I love doing. And now I’m getting back to that after emotional abuse. So I’m doing yoga every day and I’m weightlifting again. I may work at the ski resort the weekends when my kids are gone.
Juliane: I love that phrase, by the way, coming back to myself.
Anne: Yeah, and part of that was the abuse. And also part of it is that I have three kids under the age of six, and getting out of the house is really hard. They’re getting older now. My youngest was eleven months old when he was arrested. Time has helped a lot, too. It took a lot of time to process. I’d never taken an emotional abuse test, I had no idea he was abusive.
Emotional Struggles & Support
Anne: In fact, I just went through a pretty hard period. I went off my antidepressant, and decided I wasn’t emotionally eating anymore. So there’s about a month where I was crying every day. I mean, really bad, in the shower. At church, finding a room where no one was, and locking myself in there. Sitting on the floor, full on bawling my head off about everything that had happened.
Because I didn’t have the crutch of food anymore, and I didn’t have my antidepressant. So there were some feelings that I hadn’t quite felt. My sister was worried about me. So was everyone else. I was like, guys, I’m gonna be okay.
https://youtu.be/yu4b-nA3gaM
I just need to feel this right now. I’m not going to eat popcorn, and I’m not going to eat Oreos. I’m not going to take an antidepressant. I just need to feel these feelings that I was not ready to feel years ago because it was too much. It would have killed me if I had to feel everything simultaneously.
So I used an antidepressant for years, and I ate a lot and gained a lot of weight. Which is fine. Both of those things are fine. Do it if that helps you.
Navigating Single Motherhood After Emotional Abuse
Anne: Now I’m stronger. Knowing even if you’re making progress, be gentle with yourself. Especially because my husband is paranoid and angry Because women, at least in my situation, have all kinds of problems. We have financial problems. What will we do for work?
Juliane: A woman working with three children that are young on her own. I mean a round of applause for all the single working moms out there. It’s so hard to do that alone. Then, you’ve got these multiple betrayal traumas. That impacts you emotionally, psychologically, and physically.
Anne: And they were coming from therapists. My clergy took his side. And friends, family, when I say family, I mean his family. This is not a small thing.
Anne: Because I knew that feeling these emotions is important for me now. Women are strong, and they’re smart. We can think rationally through those decisions and make the right decision for you. And one of them might be, oh, I feel good. But now I realize my brain is imbalanced, and now I’m going on an antidepressant.
Juliane: Absolutely, it’s there for a reason, and it wouldn’t work if we didn’t need it. Some women need it right away because of the trauma symptoms they’re having. I can’t eat, I can’t sleep, you know, the constant worry, fear and anxiety.
And I’ve also seen fear get women through that period, because of all the adrenaline cortisol pumping through their system. It kind of keeps them on high alert, and they can get through the crisis. But a year or two years out, they kind of notice they’re slipping into depression and then need some support at that time.
Therapy Challenges After Emotional Abuse
Anne: Absolutely. Yeah, I am not anti-medication. I just want to make that clear to everybody. Please go on it if you need it. This is where I’m at right now.
Juliane: Well, kudos to you for all the hard work you’re doing and for the place you’re in. Betrayal Trauma Recovery is taking what harmed you and turning it around. To provide support, encouragement and resources for other hurting women out there. When I went through this, I never really bought into the co-dependency, co-addict model. It has impacted many women, and not for good. When I went through this, BTR helped so much.
Anne: That’s one reason I wanted to start Betrayal Trauma Recovery. It was to talk about all these important issues in one place. Because I was not seeing that in a typical 12-step group or a typical therapist’s office. Oftentimes traditional therapy that tries to get to the heart of, “why he doesn’t feel loved” or whatever. Rather than recognizing, wait a minute, he is loved. He can’t feel love because of his misogynistic attitude. And his feelings of entitlement and those aren’t going away.
The Importance Of Emotional Safety
Anne: The more therapy he does, the more he feels like he’s a victim. So I always like to warn people. You don’t want to give an abuser a shovel by having him go to therapy. Where he creates a story for why he has an abusive character. Because he’s just going to dig his trench even deeper. Because we see all the time, therapy fuels his entitlements and feelings of being a victim. It makes it worse for the wife.
That’s why at Betrayal Trauma Recovery helping women be emotionally safe is the top priority. And that could look like many things.
Juliane: Right, this is a woman who is violated. And there’s no sense of safety. So safety is of the utmost importance.
Anne: Yeah, and at BTR that’s actually the bulk of what we see. That therapists don’t assess emotional safety first, and if they do, and the woman isn’t emotionally safe. They propose things like, share your feelings with the abuser. Or let’s communicate better with him, and that is dangerous.
Court System Challenges After Emotional Abuse
Anne: It’s like the civil court system. A friend of mine is going through divorce with an extremely abusive man. She can’t talk to him without being psychologically abused and blamed. That sort of thing. And in court, the judge said, Look, you guys are both professional people, work it out.
Juliane: Oh, gee.
Anne: There’s no way she can work it out with him. It’s impossible. So a therapist might think, Okay, you both seem intelligent. You both seem nice, let’s work together. And you’re thinking, we can’t coordinate or cooperate about anything without me being harmed in the process. Every time I try to communicate or resolve something, I end up gaslit and taken advantage of.
Many people, lawyers, court people, clergy, and therapists, don’t have safety as the top priority. That has to be the top priority when any type of emotional or psychological abuse is involved.
Juliane: Absolutely, we can’t have a healthy relationship with an unhealthy individual.
Anne: Thank you. That was fun to be interviewed for a little bit.
Juliane: Anne, thank you so much for having me. It’s been a joy and delight. I feel like I could talk another couple hours with you, but thank you so much. I want to applaud you for all your work and how you’re giving back to women through this podcast. And kudos to you for writing your book and giving up buckets of popcorn. I wish you all the best.
Anne: Thank you.
Why is My Husband Constantly On His Phone? – The Research
Jan 14, 2025
Show notes
Do you feel like something is “off” with your husband? If you’re asking, “Why is my husband constantly on his phone?” Here’s what couple therapists or clergy won’t tell you. Dr. Hastings and Dr. Lucero Jones are on the podcast talking about their groundbreaking research on how a husband’s pornography use affects his wife. You deserve support, learn about Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions. 4 Ways To Find Support When He’s Constantly On His Phone Listen to The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast Attend a BTR.ORG Group Session Meet with a BTR Coach for an Individual Session Call a safe person to share your feelings. No Matter What He’s Doing On His Phone, You Can Choose Emotional & Sexual Safety Here at BTR.ORG, we understand the overwhelming chaos you feel when you discover your husband is constantly on his phone because he’s using exploitative material. Just brushing your teeth can feel like an insurmountable task. Try to remember to give yourself grace as you process this new information, and give yourself the space to create emotional safety for yourself, rather than immediately “working on the marriage”. Transcript: Why is My Husband Constantly on His Phone? Anne: I have Dr. Heidi Hastings and Dr. Rebecca Lucero Jones on today’s episode. Dr. Hastings recently completed her PhD in family studies at Texas Women’s University. Her research is on religious women who married men who are constantly on their phones using exploitative material. Dr. Lucero Jones is a practicing marriage and family therapist and professor of marriage and family therapy at Texas Women’s University. Together, they have researched women who have experienced betrayal, and I’m so excited to share their research with us today. Welcome. Heidi: Thanks, Anne. We’re happy to be here. Rebecca: Thank you. We’re glad to be here. Research Focus: Religious Women & Betrayal When He’s Always On His Phone Anne: So in your studies, you develop the five stages of betrayal and self development. Why don’t we start there? Heidi: So we are interested in the experience of religious women when their husbands are always on their phones. We recruited women from non-denominational Christian religions, from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints, several Protestant Christian religions, fundamentalist Christian religions, Jewish religions, and we had one Muslim participant, and Catholic. We also had a few women in different religions who moved towards spirituality instead. So, our range of religious representation here is pretty broad. Rebecca: We conducted interviews with 31 women of various denominations and sects of different religions, and wanted to understand their experience as a whole and understand the process they go through. Maybe even before they find out that their husband has some sort of compulsive behaviors. Then what happens afterwards, and kind of where do they eventually land. As we asked them these questions, they told us their stories of their experiences of discovery that what’s he’s always doing on his phone is looking at online exploitation. And also of how they coped and what happened with the marriage. What kind of help they sought out. Their experience with their religions, religious leaders, other family members, friends, just anybody in their social circles. From that, we developed this model that showed us that there were actually five distinct stages that women went through. But we also noticed a lot of self-development throughout their healing process. When He’s Always On His Phone: Understanding Religious & Cultural Scripts Heidi: So the first stage is religious, family, and cultural scripts. Which scripts are, if you think about a play, somebody gets a script that tells them this is how they behave. Before the discovery that their husband was using his phone for secretive things, often even before marriage. This understanding from a religious perspective facilitated her creation of beautiful, yet innocent core beliefs. About herself, her marriage, her faith, and her relationship with God. Her personal identity was often abandoned, for the couple’s identity created at marriage. While these women had innocent beliefs that are beneficial to many women. For women I interviewed, their innocence later proves problematic. Innocent Beliefs & Their Consequences When He’s Always On His Phone Heidi: So the things that religion brings to many beautiful marriages. Actually compromised some parts and made them susceptible to danger, abuse, and trauma. They described these initial innocent beliefs as naive and shallow, shameful or confusing later on. Their naivety was also seen in women who knew about their husband’s constant phone use before marriage. So we did have several women for whom it wasn’t secret. Most of the time, they tell her it’s not a big deal. I’ve taken care of it. It’s no longer an issue. Or they tell her, and the women believed when we marry, we can have all of it we want. So the desire to use their phones constantly isn’t going to be an issue anymore. It’s just going to go away. Anne: Marriage is going to be the solution. Heidi: Marriage will be the solution, yes. Marriage Myths & Realities When He’s Addicted To His Phone Anne: That is a common myth. That even sometimes church leaders perpetuate that marriage will solve his constant exploitative content problem, or maybe his immaturity problem. If he’s immature, he should probably just get married. And then he’ll be fine, rather than wait a minute, solve the problem first. Heidi: Exactly. So even those women who knew he uses his phone constantly to access it ahead of time truly underestimated the problem. So each of the women in our study had a unique belief system and path leading to the discovery of how problematic it truly was. But there were many common characteristics that describe the process. That most of the women went through in this stage. Their naive beliefs about gender, and God, really influenced their understanding at this point. Naivety About What He’s Really Doing On His Phone Anne: When you say naive, it sounds like victim blaming-ish. But not simultaneously, right? Heidi: That’s why we also use the word innocent, yes. Anne: Innocent, but also maybe even faithful. Heidi: That’s a good point. Anne: They believed what their church leaders told them. If their church leader said, “if you obey the commandments and if you marry a “good guy”.” Under these circumstances, your marriage will be good. They checked all those boxes and had faith, thinking, “I did everything I was supposed to do”. It wasn’t a naive thing. I listened to my leaders and did what they said. I wasn’t naive, I had a college degree.” Rebecca: The reason we chose the word naive is that it is the word the women use. So many times with this research, we try to use the words of the participants. So we capture their experience as they experienced it. And I think maybe that is a resentment towards your earlier self, right? At that time, I just listened to my leaders, and I let them tell me what was best, and I ignored my gut. So I think there might be a little bit of resentment when they’re using that word. I think you’re right. That whether we use the word naive or faithful, it’s capturing this thing women are often taught. That they are better women. You’re a good woman. If you’re more innocent, pure, you believe, faithful, and we are taught to listen to leaders. Religious Leaders’ Influence Rebecca: Many times, in the religious context in which many of these women operate, we have quotes from the women. Where they met with a pastor or church leader, or not as much with the rabbis, but with different leaders. And they were directly told to submit to their husbands that their husbands will lead them in this arena. That they would be safe, and that their husbands knew what they were doing. So you’re right, many women did, I would say, appease their husband’s requests. That they went along with these things. Because religious leaders are directed to listen to their husband or that they could trust their husband. Heidi: Particularly for those that aligned with fundamentalist religions. And they had innocent or naive beliefs about what he’s constantly doing on his phone. And that’s just that it’s bad, that’s all they knew. This is bad, people who view it are bad. And that was an incomplete understanding they later identified. Anne: Also a lack of education about emotional and psychological abuse, coercion, and rape even. So with that lack of education that the religion didn’t give them. They didn’t say, okay, we’re going to teach you about marriage. But also read the Bible and read this book about abuse before you marry? There wasn’t that. So in terms of abuse education, they didn’t have the exposure to it. Lack of Education On Abuse & Coerction Heidi: Well, and even one step further, they didn’t even have education surrounding sexuality. They entered it in a very pure and innocent way. Often expecting their husband to guide and show them the way. Which most men had constantly watched it on their phone and it was their education, and there’s just a big dissonance. Anne: Abuse is their education. Rebecca: And I would say not only not being aware of rules of consent, but also knowing about abuse. But also not having a roadmap for healthy intimacy. Because many times in religions, it’s like no intimacy. And then suddenly it’s a free for all. And you’re just supposed to know what that looks like. So there’s no roadmap for what healthy looks like. https://youtu.be/bV3mhCAOAOA And I will say in the interviews, it’s clear within the religious context. The message women receive is say yes to everything. There is no consent. So church leaders teach them to say yes to everything. So you don’t have any agency within the relationship. Your husband will take care of you. Just trust him. So I would say even basic things like agency, consent. Learning how to figure out what feels good in your body is very important. There’s a real absence of that in the religious context. Rape & Lack Of Choice When He Uses His Phone All The Time Heidi: One Catholic woman reported that in her Pre-Cana, which is meeting with the priest before her marriage. Her priest said to her, “Your husband has a right to have it”. He has a right to conjugal visits, and you can’t say no. And in hindsight, she was horrified that he’d used the word conjugal visits. Like it was a jail or a prison. Anne: If you can’t say no, that priest is saying your husband can rape you. Rebecca: That’s the sad thing, right? This is often the arrangement of the marriage. Consent is not even part of the equation. There’s no equity in the relationship, there’s no freedom. Anne: You have the right to say no, which you technically do have the right to say no. But they don’t think they do. Which is rape. Rape is being supported by these religious scripts. Rebecca: A lot of them, it was not happening. But there were definitely some of our participants who said, looking back, this was definitely abuse. This was definitely rape, but at the time they couldn’t see it. Because they marry with a larger social script saying, you always say yes. But how do you say yes? If you always have to say yes. You can’t, it doesn’t mean anything. Anne: It is the definition of rape, and nobody taught him that. If you can’t say no, it’s rape. Trusting Without Trustworthiness Heidi: We definitely had some participants who realized that later, but they didn’t even understand it at the time. Because through religious messaging, they had such explicit trust in their husbands. That allowed them to be really emotionally, and physically vulnerable. It gave them a false sense of security, because they thought their husbands would be loyal and faithful. Especially when they belong to the same religion. They had so much trust for them that they made these naive assumptions. And the assumptions were that they’d be trustworthy, monogamous, exclusive, they’d avoid it. Even though there wasn’t any behavioral evidence for doing so. And they assume their relationship would be healthy, robust and intimate. Which many of them were the exact opposite, but they relinquish power. Knowingly for some women because they’ve been told to, but for others they unconsciously yield to his needs. For his preferences, and they didn’t know their own. Many of them started to be silent. Anne: Well, it’s interesting to me that victims don’t recognize they are doing that for emotional safety or psychological safety. Because of her emotional safety, her financial safety depends on him. They are really weighing out the pros and cons of, is this safe for me to do, is this not? If I don’t have it with him, he’s going to be angry. When He’s Constantly On His Phone Doing Harmful Things, It’s An Abusive Situation Anne: He might yell at me. It’s going to be scary. And that’s why this kind of use, at least the way we approach it here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, is a domestic abuse issue. Because if you’re coming at it from a place of fear. And the reason why you’re agreeing is because you’re silenced, afraid, or you feel like you have to. Then, you’re in an abusive situation. And so many women have these concerns and worries. They don’t know to define it as abuse. Did they define it as abuse in the study? Heidi: In this first innocent stage, specifically, the kind of relationships or abuse you’re talking about weren’t on the forefront of their mind. That comes later on, but I would say very few saw it as abuse. Some did after some work with coaches, but largely at this point, no. Anne: Well, that’s what I see too. Rebecca: When we recruited our participants, we found that over half of the men have extramarital behaviors. So it isn’t just exploitative content. Women are not saying, oh my husband looked at one picture. He’s got a problem, and they’re making a big fuss of it. Women are complaining because there is a lot going on in the background. There is a lot of lying, there is no intimacy. There are many problems in the marriage that make a woman say, “Something’s off here”. Something’s wrong. It’s not just he looked at some pictures, right? The Crisis Stage Begins When You Discover What He’s Doing On His Phone Heidi: That said, we did have one participant, probably her level of PTSD was one of the two or three highest in all of the group. And she had just seen one picture her husband had looked at. They were Christian missionaries in the mountains of Mexico, and that put her over the edge. The idea of this innocence then shifts into what Anne was saying through stage two, which is crisis. Anne: We talk about this one man somewhere who might look at it and be a nice guy. The women who come to BTR, none of them have that experience. It’s that they try to get help, they try to figure it out, and no one told them it was abuse. That’s why it’s the best support for betrayal trauma. And so they couldn’t find their way out. Because it was more like put your shoulders to the wheel sort of thing. Like help him with his addiction and stand by your man kind of stuff. And at least from the women I’ve sampled, which is not everyone, but it’s never just this one time this guy looks at this one picture. So for that woman in the mountains, there’s probably so much abuse going on that she didn’t even realize, lying, gas lighting, and psychological abuse. Which is why she reacts the way she did She might not have even been aware of it when she described it to you. Which is so hard, because women who don’t have abuse education can’t describe what it is. It makes it hard to grasp what’s happening, because they’re not going to say, yes, this was psychological abuse. Out Of Boundary Behaviors Rebecca: I think you’re right. I mean, anytime I have someone coming in and discussing any sort of, it could be texting, it could be a picture. I can never know the depth of what’s going on because many times people wi…
Why Won’t He Do This ONE Thing to Fight For Our Marriage? Oh, I Get It Now
Jan 07, 2025
Show notes
Does your husband promise you that he will do anything to help heal your marriage from his betrayal, lies, and emotional abuse? Then then doesn’t do anything? “I fight for our marriage, but he doesn’t follow through,” said Kirsten, a member of our community. Does this sound familiar? We’re here for you, learn about our Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions. Transcript: Why Won’t My Husband Fight For Our Marriage? Anne: I have Kirsten on the podcast today. I know her personally, and she’s amazing. She’s a member of our community. She is a divorced mom of four, and she’s also an incredible artist and writer. Who likes to write to explore being a real human being breaking through destructive personal and generational patterns. And how handling hard times with humor can make life more palatable. Kirsten strives to not take herself too seriously. To help balance out the very serious things she’s been through in her life with humor and art and other modes of coping. We’re going to talk about a phrase that she invented. I’m not going to let the cat out of the bag. I’m going to let her set up what this term is and then we’ll have a discussion about it. So can you talk about the background of this term, first of all? Kirsten: So a little bit about my personal backstory. I had been about 17 years into my then marriage, and we were about a year into an in house separation. And working on him trying to recover from his addiction. And me trying to recover from 17 years of long term premeditated and fairly disturbing mind games and lies and betrayals. What Is “Meatloafing”? When He Says He Will Fight For Our Marriage Kirsten: We were doing an in house separation, and he said that he would do anything to fix the damage that was happening in our marriage. And I believed him. I wanted to believe him when he said he would fight for our marriage. One night he came down from his bedroom that he was staying in and asked me when I would drop my boundary of him Not being able to initiate any physical touch in our marriage. I reminded him that he had not followed through with the task that he’d been given by his therapist and by our religious leader. That my personal therapist had suggested that I may even need some really specialized therapy to be able to heal. To get back to that point where I’d be comfortable being physically intimate with him. He asked me how long it would take for me to do this healing. And I said, I don’t, I don’t know. Six months? A year? I don’t know. He let me know that that was too long. That my boundary was impeding his recovery. So, that’s kind of when I knew that that marriage was over. I’m a pretty visual thinker. I’m an artist. I have a brain full of all kinds of ridiculous cultural references. When he said that, I could see in my head this video and song that came out in the early 90s from this rocker, Meatloaf. Why Won’t He Do This One Thing To Fight For Our Marriage? Kirsten: He did this ridiculous video called, I will do anything for love. And I could hear his voice in my head. You know, I can do anything for love, but I won’t do that. I just started laughing and walked out of the room. I’m sure that it appeared very rude to him, but I just, the ridiculousness of it. You know, 17 years of really awful behavior and damage, and he couldn’t give me this. This one thing that I was asking for him to do. I’m in the Betrayal Trauma Recovery community, and one day a woman said her partner was not going to do the thing that she had asked him to do. To be able to receive healing in their marriage. That came back to my head and I said, Oh, he’s Meatloafing you. Of course, you know, I often forget that I’m one of the older members of the community. You probably have to be over maybe 35 to kind of get that reference right away. But he said, what are you talking about? And I said, don’t you remember that song by Meatloaf? I’ll do anything for love, but I won’t do that. And that just started a whole entire thing of hilarity where we made up memes about Meatloaf and what he would and wouldn’t do. It was fun. And we need the laugh, quite frankly, things can get quite heavy in the community at times. They are all saying I will do anything to fight for my marriage, but in reality won’t do what it actually takes. But it’s a really appropriate term to describe the way that sometimes when addicts try to keep all the things. I Want To Fight For My Marriage: When Abusers Use The Meatloaf Technique Kirsten: Why wouldn’t they? They have a loving partner and a family, they’re taking care of all their stuff. Then on the side, they also have their addiction and whatever life they’ve built around that. They’ll say they want to fight for our marriage.” To be able to try and protect that dual life and that addiction. So you can’t really listen to the things they say. You know, I mean, this meatloaf song is like eight minutes long. It’s ridiculous. I mean, he just goes on and on and on about all these things that he’ll do for her. He’ll go to hell and back. He’ll do, you know, I mean, it’s just, the video is hilarious. And not to mention that, by the way, he’s a monster in the video, but when she gives him love, he turns into a man. Anne: Oh, wow. The Beauty and the Beast. scenario. Does it ever say what the thing he won’t do is? Kirsten: Well, in actuality, of course, the song doesn’t really mean that. Because what he means is he won’t cheat on her. He won’t forget her feelings. He’ll do all these things. And then she comes in on her verse and she says, are you gonna cheat on me? Are you gonna hurt my feelings and break my heart? And he’s like, I won’t do that. So in actuality, the song’s not really as bad as it sounds when we made the meme out of it. But you know, we all have that line in our head from the song, if we’re old enough. I Will Do Anything For Love, But I Won’t Do That Anne: Yeah, I will do anything for love, but I won’t do that. A woman in our community, she got her young daughter’s ears pierced in like January? And I don’t know, four months later or something, she sent her daughter to her ex’s house. They were these really expensive stud earrings. And he lost one of the earrings and then he wrote this email that was like this five paragraph manifesto about how could they improve communication and what could he do? He would do anything to help out, you know, that kind of a thing. She wrote back and said, pay $20 for Sophie’s earring. He wrote this big rant about how he never consented to her getting her ears pierced. There was no way he was going to pay for the earring. But he didn’t bring that up back in January when she had her ears pierced. So he was like, I will do anything, but there’s no way I’ll pay $20 for a lost earring. And it’s funny the things that they won’t do. When they want to fight for their marriage. Well, they won’t do what they don’t want to do is the thing. Kirsten: Right. You know, when you speak about serious breaches in trust and contract of a partnership, which, most of our members are married and their partnership is a marriage and, you know, the onus of healing, the broken trust is on the person that broke the trust. I Tried To Fight For Our Marriage Using Boundaries Kirsten: So, as the offended partner begins their healing process. And they start to gather their strength and their dignity back around them. Also they have a community that builds them up, they learn about boundaries and they start to put those in place. They’ll begin to set healing tasks and limits on the allowed behaviors for that offending partner. This is not an attempt to control the partner, this is their attempt to try and fight for their relationship. Anne: To establish some safety. Kirsten: Exactly. I mean, because they’ve now realized. That all these things have gone on. My first reaction when I found out the true depth of the betrayal, that had happened in my marriage, was to just leave. I was done right then. But my attempt to be able to feel safe enough to wait to give him some time to heal and fix his problem. Was to have boundaries in place. That’s the only way I could stay, and keep fighting for our marriage. I wasn’t trying to control him as a person. I just needed that. You know, I needed that for myself. Oftentimes the offending partner will profess with all kinds of words, all the things that they’re willing to do. They feel so bad. I’ll do anything I can to fix this. And it’s impossible to know if your husband is grooming you. But when they’re actually put to the test, they refuse to engage. They refuse to follow through. That just goes to show you that the old adage that you watch their feet and not their mouth is true. Anne: Like the, I would do it if you wouldn’t bother me about it. You’ve heard that one before. He Said He Wanted To Fight For Our Marriage But His Actions Didn’t Match His Words Anne: Where they’re like, I was about to do it, but now that you reminded me, I won’t be doing it on my own. So just let me do it in my own time. Kirsten: I don’t like it when you act like my Mom. You’re taking my dignity away. Let me do this in my own time. Anne: In their own time is never. They’re only saying that to avoid doing the thing. Kirsten: Why should they get to do anything in their own time? They’re the one that broke the contract. They’re the one that broke the trust. They are the one’s who should fight for our marriage. They really should do anything. I mean, you know, within reason. Most of the women in our community are pretty healthy people. They’re not trying to use this as an opportunity to control their spouse or their partner. Anne: No, they’re looking for safety and they’re looking for truth. In your situation, did you ever consider your situation to be abuse while you were in this place of knowing about his dangerous behavior. But thinking maybe he could get into recovery when you’re kind of thinking of him as an addict? Was there ever a time where you were like, wait a minute, I was abused this whole time? Kirsten: No, it never really crossed my mind. See, one of the things about my situation is I was married before this marriage, very shortly. For 18 months and it was a very abusive, destructive marriage. So to me, anything that wasn’t that was better. When Victims Begin To Set Limits & Boundaries, Abusers May Start “Meatloafing” Anytime I start to feel like something might be wrong or my body was like, Oh, I’m uncomfortable. If I would bring it up to my spouse. He would say, yeah, you’re right, something is wrong, you need to go to therapy because you’re broken from your first marriage. I became the kind of person that would just completely take all of it in on myself. I was sure that everything that was wrong in our marriage was my fault. It wasn’t until I was in my therapeutic disclosure, and this is after a surprise dump disclosure, I thought I knew everything. But after a therapist had helped lead him through. all the things, which, you know, turned in from a five page thing to ten page disclosure. When I heard some of the very specific things that he did that were so twisted that my brain starts to say, wait a minute, only crazy people do this. Like abusive, crazy, like you see in the lifetime movies, kind of people. Even then, it still took me a good year, year and a half to accept the fact that I was actually severely abused for many, many years. Anne: Why do you think it’s so easy? Well, not so easy, but easier for women to recognize abuse when they’re in a relationship, like your first marriage? Where the abuse was really obvious compared to how long was your second marriage? Kirsten: By the time the divorce went through, we’d been married for 20 years. I Wanted To Keep Fighting For Our Marriage, but I Couldn’t See Through The Fog Anne: So compared to the second marriage, that was 20 years where the whole time, You’re in this fog of abuse, but you can’t see it, and you’re trying to wrap your head around what’s going on. Why do you think it’s so difficult for women to see this second type of abuse? Kirsten: Well, I’ve never considered myself a person that could be abused. I’m not stupid or weak. I’m quite sassy and strong willed. I never thought that anything like that could ever happen to me, and it was very subtle. Very, very subtle and not only that, but I grew up in a family and in a religion where I was groomed. Some people don’t like that term, but it’s true. To turn over my knowing and my will to the patriarch of the home, the husband, the leader of our church, that’s what a good woman does. So my natural ability to kind of say, Hey, this doesn’t feel right. Just over the years really was squashed. So, you know, never in my brain until like a therapist or a podcast or something would say, Hey, this behavior is abusive. Would I ever think, Oh, you’re right. Putting that label on it, which seems extreme to a lot of people and they really kick against it was enough to clear my brain up from the fog to start to look for more truth. Anne: Yeah, you mentioned a lot of people kick against the term abuse, especially within the context of addiction. Why do you think so many people are unwilling to say, if you’re in a relationship with an active addict or an active porn user, you are in an abusive relationship? It is an abuse issue. And you have symptoms of betrayal trauma. He Says He Want’s To Fight To Save Our Marriage But He Sees Me As Subservient Anne: Why do you think so many people don’t want to go there? Kirsten: Well, there’s a lot of shame around anything that has to do with it. People don’t like to talk about it. They don’t want to be real about it. They certainly don’t want to talk about anything that has to do with abusive behaviors and sex. The level of shame will make it so people don’t want to talk about it at all. Let alone slap a label of abuse on it. There’s all this cultural misogyny, serious examples of misogyny. That a woman should do what her spouse wants her to do. This is what marital coercion is. Her needs should be subservient to her spouse’s needs. Even things like a woman shouldn’t enjoy it, or she shouldn’t have to worry about feeling safe because it’s just a duty that needs to happen in a marriage. With all this cultural baggage and all these things generationally that we’re dragging with us as women, it’s just something that we wouldn’t even consider unless it’s, you know, a violent rape, say. You know, but in a marriage context, I mean, we’ve had women in the community that didn’t even realize until they heard somebody else talk about it. That they actually were raped in their own marriage, when I had that experience. And you just don’t understand what’s going on. You have no context or words for it. You don’t have the vocabulary for it. We weren’t taught that until you get into the Betrayal Trauma Recovery community and learn . The verbiage that you need to be able to start clarifying those things in your head. Abusers Don’t Think to Ask For Consent: They Feel Entitled To It Anne: What helps you realize you were raped? I’m guessing multiple rapes. Kirsten: Well, yeah multiple times. I didn’t understand my body’s fight, flight, freeze, or fawn response. I didn’t understand the trauma response. So, I didn’t recognize that those times when I didn’t want to be there doing what he wanted. I would just leave my body so that I could make it through it. That that was something that would be considered a assault. And there was one specific situation that involved a big production that he had put together almost like a movie. A play that he wanted me to play out. With notes and letters and this big thing where I had to go here and do this and then here and do that. And da da da and ended up in a hotel room and it was a horrendous experience for me. https://youtu.be/qpinvaj-q2A Somebody had mentioned, hey, this thing happened to me, I think I was raped by my husband. And I was like, wait, rape? That’s rape? And it just hit me. I was li…
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