No woman wants to face the horror of her husband’s betrayal. Or have to recover from the emotional, physical & financial trauma and never-ending consequences. But these courageous women DID. And we’ll walk with you, so YOU can too. If you’re experiencing pain, chaos, and isolation due to your husband’s lying, anger, gaslighting, manipulation, infidelity, and/or emotional abuse… If he’s undermined you and condemned you as an angry, codependent, controlling gold-digger… If you think your husband might be an addict or narcissist. Or even if he’s “just” a jerk… If your husband (or ex) is miserable to be around, this podcast is for YOU.
Urgent: Don’t Ignore These 5 Stages of Anger After Infidelity
May 20, 2025
Show notes
I went through so many stages of anger after infidelity. Here’s what I learned over the years. I realized I wasn’t just healing from his infidelity—I was also recovering from years of emotional hurt. If this sounds like you, take this free emotional abuse quiz to see if you’ve been through emotional abuse too. The 5 Stages of Anger After Infidelity Healing from infidelity means facing a whirlwind of emotions. One emotion often takes center stage is raw and overwhelming. If you’ve been betrayed by your husband’s infidelity, the anger you feel is not only normal—it’s a crucial part of your healing process. 1. Anger at the Betrayal Itself The first wave often hits when you discover the infidelity. It’s anger directed at the lies, deceit, and complete loss of trust. This stage is about recognizing the deep sense of betrayal and questioning how someone you loved could hurt you so profoundly. “How could he do this to me?” “Does he even care about the pain he’s caused?” It’s healthy to feel this anger fully. Talking to a trusted friend or even attending an online betrayal trauma support group can help you process these emotions safely. 2. Anger at the Consequences Whether it’s emotional wounds, financial stress, or strained relationships, it’s normal to feel angry about the impact of his actions. “Why am I the one picking up the pieces?” “Now I have to heal because of his choices.” It’s so hard to have to deal with all the hurt and harm he has caused. You’re not alone. So many other women have faced similar challenges, including me. Even so, I’m so so sorry that you’re going through this. You don’t deserve it. 3. Anger at the Loss Betrayal doesn’t just hurt—it also takes things away. You’ll likely grieve the marriage you thought you had, the version of your husband you believed in, or the future you planned together. This grief often takes the form of anger. “I didn’t deserve to lose everything I’ve worked for.” “It’s not fair that my whole world has changed because of his betrayal.” It’s healthy to mourn these losses. And to have a community that can mourn with you, like The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Community. 4. Anger at Yourself Many women feel frustrated with themselves. You might be angry for trusting him, for not seeing the signs sooner, or for still struggling to heal. “Why didn’t I see through his lies?” “Why do I feel so stuck?” It’s crucial to treat yourself with compassion during this stage. His betrayal was not your fault. Listening to women share their betrayal trauma stories on this podcast. Their stories will remind you that you’re not alone—or to blame. It’s so hard to wrap your head around. Some people will blame you for trauma bonding, for example, with your husband, but that’s not true. He lied to you and that’s on him. 5. Reclaiming Anger as Strength The final stage is when you realize that your anger can become a source of power. It can motivate you learn strategies to protect yourself. “I am powerful and my needs are important.” “It’s time to focus on my well-being.” Learning how to live in the power you’ve always had is the aim of The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop. You are strong, capable, and worthy of love and respect. You’re Not Alone. I’m Angry Too As I talk with victims of infidelity on a daily basis, I am so angry. And how could I not be? It’s important to know you’re not alone in your anger at his infidelity. Every emotion you’re feeling—sorrow, devastation, numbness, or fury—is valid. At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we’re here to walk with you every step of the way. Transcript: Stages of Anger After Infidelity Welcome to BTR.ORG. This is Anne. My children are with my ex for right now, and I’ve been alone and working a lot. I’ve been really busy. I actually think I might go shop for new clothes today which I haven’t done in years–which is making me a bit nervous! At the same time, I’m thinking, “My goodness! I might get a new shirt today!” This is exciting!! While my children are gone, my mom’s here helping me. I have amazing parents. They are supportive emotionally and financially. I really need to put a shout out to them, especially my mom who is my biggest fan. There is no way I could do this without her support—emotionally and physically, for she tends my kids. She brings dinner. My mom is a carpenter. She can do electrical work. She fixes my toilets. So she came down and helped me assemble a desk and helped put my new office together. Gratitude for Family I got exhausted but my mom who is 65 came over and stood on stools to drill holes in the wall for my bookcases so they don’t fall over on my kids. I was getting exhausted and she powered through! My mom can do anything! I am so grateful for her and admire her so much. Where my ex-husband used to be my partner in projects, now I still have a partner and it’s my mom. And so I can still work on my projects and do the things I love and still have help. She is an angel and I am so grateful for her. My life is infinitely better because of her. I am also grateful for my dad and their financial assistance. I’m really, really blessed to have amazing parents. I want to talk about some of things I loved about my ex that I have been thinking about lately. I love projects, I love improving things. I’ve got a really nice home in a nice area, in a suburb north of Salt Lake City, Utah. It’s very safe and convenient. My ex and I bought the home together. He’s a mechanical engineer and also a patent attorney. He’s really, really smart with numbers and with problem solving with mechanical situations. I really appreciated that about him. He built a chicken coop that could withstand the apocalypse! I remember watching him work in the yard and seeing how strong he was. He could pick up a railroad tie and drag it around. I always thought he was handsome when he was out working in the yard and he had dirt all over his face. Struggling with Anger At Infidelity and Contradictions in Faith We bought a home together, before we got married (which I don’t recommend). There were tons of rocks. We gathered them up and put them in buckets. He would put them in the bottom of the garbage can since it could only handle being about 1/3 full so it wouldn’t break. The garbage truck would come and dump it and my ex would put more rocks in and take the can to the other side of the street. This was my idea but he did it willingly. When he was not being abusive he was so willing to help me. He worked from home the last three years of our marriage. I could come home from the grocery store and he would come and help me bring the groceries in. He loved church which is difficult for me now because we attended together. We attended the temple and he is still attending. He hasn’t repented. There is a disconnect there. I like that he does love the Church. I just can’t figure out how come he can’t understand the commandments or obey them. It is hard to have so much anger at his infidelity and the mismatch of values and actions. It’s hard to understand that this is how narcissists groom victims. He has the appearance of really, truly loving the Church which I appreciated about him. https://youtu.be/6Sl9KCv6mYg When His Actions Contradict His Stated Values He liked to cook which I also appreciated about him. He wasn’t a good cook but he did it and he liked it so that was cool. And he was willing to do whatever I wanted to do. Whatever movie I wanted to watch, wherever I wanted to go, he was willing to go with me. He never really planned anything which now I wonder if he just wasn’t very interested. I did a lot of brain work planning things and he was willing to go. He didn’t play video games. He didn’t watch sports. I appreciated that about him. When he was here, he genuinely seemed to care about his family which is why it was so shocking that after his arrest he gave up. And also for the last three months when things got really bad there was no sign of him wanting to protect his family or keep us together. He has this child-like naiveté to him. Like he didn’t know who the Rockettes were. He didn’t know a lot of cultural references. I found it kind of endearing. I really admired his physical strength and stamina. He was an extremely hard worker with yard projects and other projects. He had a lot of patience unless he was abusive and then he would get mad and scream and yell and swear. And because I don’t know how to set boundaries with my husband that work, it feels impossible. Struggling to Hold On After Infidelity: Hoping for Change in a Difficult Relationship I’m missing the really good things about him. I’m also missing the times we worked together to accomplish things. We really got along on all major decisions–church things, where to move, what to do. Every major decision was easy for us. We never fought about that. Because he was abusive we constantly had trouble with the little things. That’s what made life difficult on a day-to-day basis. We moved 6 times in 5 years. We started out in Spokane, Washington, and then he was laid off. So we moved in with my parents. Then we moved to Washington D.C. where he was a patent examiner. We lived there for two years. During this time, his abuse I attributed to his job in 2008. We also had to sell our house. It was very stressful so I attributed his abuse to stress and thought that once we could sell our house and get him a new job, he would be better. Then we moved to Washington D.C. and he was in the patent office and I thought, “This is a temporary situation. We live in a small apartment in inner city Alexandria. Once he gets his career established and we can move into a home, it will get better.” I was working so hard to make things better and it made me so angry that he kept being unfaithful. Facing The Anger: Developing Inner Peace After Infidelity Then we moved back to Utah and moved in with my parents. This was difficult and I thought that once we got our own house, things will be better. We bought a home that I did not like the floorplan. We couldn’t fit a dining room table in the kitchen, for example. I thought that if we moved to a more permanent home where we could live forever and raise our family there, things would be better. So then we bought the home that I am in now. Which is my dream home. I absolutely adore it and I never want to leave. We began remodeling and I thought that once it was remodeled and settled then he will be better. There would be less stress and he wouldn’t act badly. But he began to get worse. About a year after moving into our dream home. He wanted to move again. He talked about getting a new job and changing. I said no. This was our life now and it’s what it means to have a life together. He felt trapped and stuck and was angry. How Can You Develop Peace After The Anger Of Infidelity I thought, “Ok. All of these remodeling projects are pushing him over the edge, so no more remodeling projects for awhile.” And he actually got worse. I was still thinking about the projects and preparing for them, so it’s not like they had stopped completely in the discussion of them. Just the physical work stopped. In fact, my mom is a kitchen designer. She had just done the plans to remodel the kitchen and take down a wall when his arrest happened. It’s a good thing we didn’t start that project. That summer when things escalated, I remember thinking: “Things will get better when the kids are in school.” The kids got in school and it didn’t get better. I’m not sure what I would have thought. We were in our dream home. I had said no more projects until he stopped acting the way he did. There wasn’t anything else I could blame. I couldn’t blame his job. I couldn’t blame our living situation. And I couldn’t blame stress because we had the “perfect” life at that time. Why Does Inner Strength Help In Healing The Anger From Infidelity There was always an excuse for abuse. There was always a reason. He’s stressed. He feels shame, shame causes infidelity. There is always going to be some reason. But, Sisters, non-abusive men get stressed and they don’t scream and swear in your face! They get stressed and they don’t use. They feel shame and they kneel down and pray and turn to the scriptures and repent! Difficult situations DO NOT cause abuse! Negative feelings do not cause pornography use. Choices do. The type of man who is safe will feel sadness and shame and stress and they will choose kindness. They will choose to obey the commandments. They will choose to protect their family. This is what you deserve and I deserve. With how badly so many men treat their wives, it’s no wonder women think, do good men even exist? I want to share with you scriptures I read this morning. I belong to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. We are Christians and we study from the Bible and Book of Mormon. This passage is from the Book of Mormon. It’s from Alma 5:55-57. This is a prophet calling people to repentance and letting them know what will happen. Inner Peace & Spirituality Yea, and will you persist in turning your backs upon the poor, and the needy, and in withholding your substance from them? And finally, all ye that will persist in your wickedness, I say unto you that these are they who shall be hewn down and cast into the fire except they speedily repent. And now I say unto you, all you that are desirous to follow the voice of the good shepherd, come ye out from the wicked, and be ye separate… Here is Christ telling the people to separate themselves from the wickedness. I am going to read that again…(v 57-60) …come ye out from the wicked, and be ye separate, and touch not their unclean things; and behold, their names shall be blotted out, that the names of the wicked shall not be numbered among the names of the righteous, that the word of God may be fulfilled, which saith: The names of the wicked shall not be mingled with the names of my people. Angry After Infidelity: Facing The Dark Times For the names of the righteous shall be written in the book of life, and unto them will I grant an inheritance at my right hand. And now, my brethren, what have ye to say against this? I say unto you, if ye speak against it, it matters not, for the word of God must be fulfilled. For what shepherd is there among you having many sheep doth not watch over them, that the wolves enter not and devour his flock? And behold, if a wolf enter his flock doth he not drive him out? Yea, and at the last, if he can, he will destroy him. And now I say unto you that the good shepherd doth call after you; if you will hearken unto his voice he will bring you into his fold, and ye are his sheep; and he commandeth you that ye suffer no ravenous wolf to enter among you, that ye may not be destroyed. Here is a commandment straight from Jesus Christ: and he commandeth you that ye suffer no ravenous wolf to enter among you, that ye may not be destroyed. (v 60) I’m going to read that again. And he commandeth you that ye suffer no ravenous wolf to enter among you, that ye may not be destroyed. Movign On From Anger Comes With Inner Peace Sisters, we love our husbands. I absolutely loved and adored my husband. For 7 years I sacrificed everything to try and help him and save my family. Here God is commanding me and commanding you: suffer no ravenous wolf to enter among you, that ye may not be destroyed. I know a lot of you are wondering what God wants for you. God wants you to be safe. He wants you to have a peaceful home. You cannot have a peaceful home with a ravenous wolf within the walls. This is a time for all of us to stand for truth and righteousness in a way we never have before. The reason why it’s so scary is because there are men in our church who look at us like we’re crazy! There are people who say that our boundaries are not righteous or that we are not being loving or kind or forgiving. None of this is true. Can Boundary-Setting Help You Heal Your Anger After Infidelity? The most compassionate thing you can do for y…
The Long-Term Effects of Emotional Abuse You Need to Know
May 13, 2025
Show notes
If you’ve endured repeated betrayal from your husband, you’re not alone. Many women in our community have faced the long-term effects of emotional abuse in their marriage. Florence, a member of the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Community, a victim of her husband’s emotional abuse for over 40 years, shares her story.
Being in an emotionally abusive relationship for a prolonged period often leaves women feeling deep loss and regret. We tend to reflect on the years spent enduring mistreatment, unaware of the full extent of our husband’s harmful behavior. This realization can lead to feelings of missed opportunities, wondering what life might have been like.
The long-term emotional impact includes grief over lost time and the struggle to reclaim their sense of self and hope for the future. The effects of emotional abuse, can be felt long term and include:
Transcript: Long-Term Effects of Emotional Abuse in Relationships
Anne: I’m honored to have a member of our community on the podcast today. We’re going to call her Florence. She’s 75 years old. She’s experienced over 40 years of betrayal trauma. She discovered her husband’s infidelity just 3 days after their wedding. She is strong, insightful and courageous. Florence, can you talk about your first reaction finding out about your husband’s double life?
Florence: My first reaction was devastation and fear. Back in those days, women didn’t have the same options as they do today. I had just moved my two daughters and myself to a new location where I had no friends or associates. And very little opportunity to find gainful employment to support myself. In doing so, I had cut off any support systems that I might’ve had, and I was really on my own. Additionally, I didn’t know that this was the start of long-term effects of emotional abuse.
Anne: So were you married before this?
Florence: I was, this was my second marriage. And I had two daughters; they were five and eight. I went deep into a place of trying to comprehend. At that time in my life, I didn’t call myself a spiritual person. In fact, I did not have a religious persuasion, and I found myself searching. To do that, I did what I think many people do. What I’ve read is that they explore with their spouse. And try to figure out what their spouse is looking for and needing.
And of course, that leads one into probably the darkest places on earth, because it’s a world of debauchery. It didn’t take me long to figure out that was not for me.
“He apologized and swore that he would never make those choices again.”
Florence: I had to make a heartfelt decision and tell my husband that I could not live that kind of life. In fact, it was not the right thing for me at all. It hurt my heart. It didn’t help my heart, and he apologized and swore he would never make those bad choices again. And we started over until the next time.
And the next time I became aware of his activities, I knew enough to go for help. Then we both went through a lot of counseling. It came trailing back in. And the problem was that I didn’t realize he had regressed back to those activities. I was only experiencing the negative behavior and the abuse.
Which after 20, 25, 30 years of marriage, you get to the point where you do your own thing, you make the best of it. Because I experienced the long-term effects of emotional abuse in rmy marriage. And if somebody wants to be a damn fool and act like a child. Let them be a damn fool and act like a child. You just can’t let that run your life.
Anne: Did you know you were being abused? Or did you think of it as …
Florence: I knew I was abused and I knew he was sick. I’ve been doing a lot of reflecting, because the last year has been a year of repeated difficulties and such a challenge. And I remember when my youngest daughter was 15 years old, and she and I took a trip out west.
“I became aware of the fact that nobody would believe me.”
Florence: We visited a childhood friend of mine. And he asked me face-to-face, “What’s wrong? You’re not right.”
I said, “Well, my husband isn’t right, he’s sick.” I didn’t elaborate on it. How could I? I didn’t have the words for it. I remember thinking many years later, the only people I could tell were people I’d known for a long time. Who actually had some confidence in me, because I became aware that nobody would believe me. People will say, “Oh, he’s so charming. Oh, he’s such a sweet man.”
And he is. He’s a beguiling, needful child. What do you do? Go out on the street and bang a drum and say, I’m being emotionally abused by a man who can’t show me love. Or who can’t relate to me. No, you can’t do that. Nobody will believe you. So you try to create wellness within a challenging situation. And that’s what I did for years until it all broke open. For the last 10 years, I thought he had frontal temporal lobe disorder. It’s the second time I’ve misdiagnosed him in my life. This is the reality of betrayal trauma in relationships.
So obviously I’m not much of a psychotherapist. But because of his anger, I felt his actions were typical of frontal temporal lobe dementia. In fact, I actually got him to go to a neurologist. It was embarrassing and a waste of time. It’s not Alzheimer’s, I’m right? It’s frontal temporal lobe. Well, I wasn’t right. Yeah, it’s very hard when you get older. I was suffering from his long-term emotional abuse.
Things don’t work the way they used to, when it isn’t what it was when you were kids. But every now and then you get the opportunity to enjoy one another to some extent.
Long-Term Effects Of Emotional Abuse: Embracing Honesty
Florence: And he gave me an STD, and that was the rude awakening. He had been back to his old tricks.
Anne: Oh, I am so sorry. That must have been so shocking and devastating. Hopefully, it brings you some kind of solace to know that you were resisting his abuse. The entire time you were going for help. And the professionals and experts you went to didn’t give you the right information. I’m so sorry. The extent of the suffering we go through for years, and years can’t be underestimated.
You mentioned that as you got older, and it just continued to happen over and over, the long-term effects of his emotional abuse resulted in you detaching. Is that where you are now? I
Florence: It’s been like a fast forward of an earlier movie of everything that ever occurred. I go in a circle, and some days I am distraught and in pain, and feel sorry for myself. And then I go through days where I am so angry. It’s like a circular thing that goes around. I’ve been able to grapple with this, because now I can be honest with our friends and family. And everybody knows. The freedom to be honest and forthright makes it possible to handle.
Anne: Yeah, having the best support for betrayal trauma is important. What thoughts do you have for women who’ve discovered this five years after your wedding or 10 years after your wedding? What would you say to yourself?
If Florence Could Go Back & Talk With Her Younger Self
Florence: You can’t help them. You can’t fix them. This has been my counter argument to my husband in all his attempts to heal himself. As it was convenient now that you’re 80 and impotent, you made these choices. Also, they have a responsibility, and that responsibility is to their partner and their families.
As somebody who suffered from it my whole life, I’m saying, you can’t give me back the past 20 years. Because I didn’t know you were doing this. I knew you were being a jerk. But if I had known he went back to deviant practices, I wouldn’t have stayed. I might’ve had the chance to build a life with someone who might genuinely care and show real regard. And I miss that, and nobody can give it back to me.
That’s where the anger comes from. Although many professionals told me, oh, you need counseling. So I tried that across all mental health professionals. But I found that most therapists are not equipped to deal. And they tend to try to use behavior modification, which they’ve learned somewhere in graduate school. If you do this, then he’ll do that. And if you do that …
Anne: Right.
Florence: It doesn’t work. And I went to four sessions with one therapist, and I just walked out. I said, this isn’t good for me. I’m getting angry about this. So I quit going.
Where Does That Leave Me?
Florence: And I’ve also challenged my husband on the fact that the addict thing is very self-absorbing. They’re all involved in taking care of themselves and getting better and praise God. And you know, it’s like wait a minute you’re still just thinking about yourself.
Where does that leave me? I’m still dealing with the long-term emotional abuse . And it still leaves me on my own. It still leaves me wanting and, you know, wanting …
Anne: Yeah, I’m so sorry, awful. Having experienced this emotional abuse long-term, right, your whole life. And then not having anybody identify it for you. And having the professionals you went to for help blame you. Then make you part of the problem. When you found Betrayal Trauma Recovery when you found this podcast, how did you feel?
Long-Term Effects Of Emotional Abuse: Knowing I’m Not Alone
Florence: It was good to know that I wasn’t alone. Most people just don’t get it. They think your husband is a philanderer. Well, of course they are. But there’s so much more to it than that. The best thing that’s happened to me and the last year is the ability, to be honest, to speak my truth. Though I am still sad about the loss I’ve had in my life, years wasted because of long-term emotional abuse in my marriage.
There are people with worse lives. But I think people need to reevaluate who they are and what they want. And I do think that many women, myself included, were raised with low expectations and a low sense of self. So we didn’t know when we weren’t being treated well. We may have known it, but we didn’t think we had any right to do anything about it.
https://youtu.be/rnqs_ebBe6E
Anne: Well, I’m glad you know now that you are important and your needs matter, and deserve respect and care. Living in that alternate reality. That you lived in for so long is exactly why I wrote The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop. Click on that link to get more information. So that women can see reality. That you are incredible, strong, capable and powerful. To get more information, go to that link.
And thank you so much Florence, you are brave and amazing. We all stand on your shoulders and the shoulders of the women who came before us. So thank you so much.
Patterns To Look Out for In Your Relationship with Dave Cawley
May 06, 2025
Show notes
If you’re wondering, “Is my relationship safe?” It’s important to look at patterns of abusive behavior. Physical abuse never happens without emotional abuse, so the first step is to understand the patterns of emotional abuse. To discover if your husband is using any one of the 19 different types of emotional abuse, take our free emotional abuse test. This Is the Second Episode With Dave CawleyWarning Signs Your Husband Is Dangerous – Susan’s Story With Dave CawleyPatterns To Look Out For In Your Relationship (THIS EPISODE) Transcript: Is My Husband Abusing Me? Anne: I’ve invited Dave Cawley, an investigative journalist and host of the Cold podcast, back on today’s episode. We have already talked about season one of the Cold Podcast, which we re-aired last week. He calls that episode Signs your Husband might kill You. It’s important for every woman experiencing emotional and psychological abuse to recognize it, and know is my husband abusing me? Because physical abuse never happens in a vacuum. Dave and I will talk as if you’ve heard all the Cold podcasts, seasons one, two, and three. And if you haven’t, don’t worry. You’ll still benefit from listening to our analysis as we discuss the themes of all three seasons. Welcome Dave. Dave: Thank you so much, Anne. I appreciate being with you. Anne: So the three seasons of the Cold podcast, Dave, you cover in season one, the murder of Susan Powell. In season two, the Murder of Joyce Yost. And in season three, the murder of Sheree Warren. And you started season three by introducing us to a man named Cary Hartman. You describe his abusive behavior toward women in the form of what some people might call prank phone calls. Law enforcement called it an obscene phone call. Really, these phone calls abused the women who received them. Even if they didn’t realize it. And even if they didn’t define it that way. Can you talk about why these abusive phone calls define Cary’s character? Dave: Sheree Warren disappears in October of 1985. She was dating this man, Cary Hartman at the time, and at first Cary Hartman is not on the radar of the investigators. Cary Hartman’s Criminal Activities Dave: Police identified Cary Hartman as a suspect in a series of home invasion assaults a year and a half later. Where he literally breaks into women’s homes and attacks them, raping them. And so I actually start this story way before we ever meet Sheree with Cary Hartman’s first arrest in 1971. Where he makes one of these calls, he tells this woman, basically a threat, that if he she will be harmed if he doesn’t get what he wants. And to your point, Anne, she was a victim. He abused abused her, right? Anne: Yeah, at the time you interviewed her, did she recognize she was a victim of his abuse? Or did she just think like, oh, a criminal called me and I helped the police identify this guy? Dave: At this point in her life, she was I wanna say about 86 years old when I interviewed her. Heidi Posnien, she’s an amazing woman, but her life experience was so different. I mean, she literally survived Berlin at the end of World War II as a child. And so her perception of how much risk she may or may not have been in at the time. I think it is different than you or I in the same situation. And I think like many victims of abuse, she doesn’t like thinking about whether her husband is abusing her. When I sat down and interviewed her about it, it brought up bad memories even after all these years. It brought up emotions that she was uncomfortable with. You do this kind of thing. Systemic Issues In Recognizing Abuse Dave: Every day Anne, talking to people who have been through abuse. You know how difficult those conversations are. I was grateful Heidi was willing to take us there for the story. Because it allows the listener to begin to see the bigger picture. Like, what are the systemic things that are taking place in our society? That caused these kinds of things to be brushed off? It’s a minor crime, voyeurism, telephone harassment and nothing serious. Anne: He has all these abusive episodes. Law enforcement doesn’t define them that way. There’s a difference between an obscene phone call, which is what they had written on their documents, right? And an abusive phone call. Like when people say something like, one out of every four women are domestic abuse victims in the state of Utah. Then women wonder is my husband abusing me and if so how do I divorce an abusive husband? They’re not saying a man abuses one out of every four women in the state of Utah. Dave: Yeah, that’s a great point. I think, the investigators at the time, thought they caught him. He’s shamed, he’ll change. And if you have that perspective in law enforcement, you’ve gotta step back and look at it and say pattern wise, like what is happening here? And with Cary Hartman, we know these phone calls escalated over time. He ends up calling thousands of women in a harassing way. Where he would try to get women to talk about their bodies, their clothing, in a way that titillated him. It’s still today thousands of victims who will never receive any measure of justice, and many probably brush it off. Eh, I just hung up on the guy. Challenges In Addressing Abuse Dave: And I think there is definitely a need to, at least from the perspective of a journalist. To think about how we talk about those kinds of situations, because we have to be objective. We have to be as unbiased as possible, but I think there’s also room for journalists to call a spade a spade. These are the actions that Cary Hartman took and you’re right, they are abusive. Let’s just call it what it is. Anne: Yeah, I’m reminded of an interview I did with a man who spent, 10 years in prison for abuse. He considered himself an addict. And he said, I acted out in my addiction. That is how he described it. And I said, well, there’s another word for that. It’s that you were an abuser. And he was like, oh, I never thought about it like that. Women think that they can figure out how to deal with an addict husband not understanding that it’s abuse. Dave: The, the focus on himself rather than on the person he was harming. Anne: Yeah, If he’s an abuser, he hurts someone else, rather than he is an addict. He just acted out in his addiction. Dave: Right, that’s a really good point. Anne: Right? Dave: I mean, part of the process for somebody who goes to prison for this kind of crime. If they will ever be paroled, it is usually that they have to go through some kind of therapy or treatment program. The DSM tailors this for mental health professionals trying to diagnose people. Anne: It’s not about their victim. The DSM is thinking maybe we can get him to stop having this. Dave: Paraphilic disorder. Sex Offender Therapy & Its Effectiveness Anne: There we go. Maybe we can get him to stop doing that, rather than maybe we should figure out how to protect other people from this person. And at least from all the victims I have interviewed, it has not worked. In fact, the domestic violence shelter will tell you that most of the time an abuser rehabilitation class, for example, makes them worse. Dave: There is an argument that in some ways it might teach them to just be better about hiding it. Anne: Exactly, and many accuse their victim of being an abuser, and then it gets confusing. Dave: They learn all the language. They learn the terminology. Anne: Exactly. Dave: As far as the Sheree Warren case with Cary Hartman, as long as we’re talking about treatment. I mean, I think an interesting thing to note is that Cary Hartman ends up going to prison for 33 years in these cases. And during that time, they repeatedly require him to go through offender therapy. He needs to pass that. It is as a condition for release on parole. Dave: They release Cary Hartman on parole in March of 2020. He got out of prison. And during the next four years, I lived in our community here in Utah, where I live and work. He was recently returned to prison because it was discovered he had been stalking a woman. According to the Utah Board of Pardons and Parole while he was out. Cary Hartman’s Parole & Recidivism Dave: So you have to stop and say, wait a minute. Did those 30 plus years in prison and repeat trips through offender therapy. Did they help Cary Hartman not harm people while back out in society? And it appears the answer to that question is no. So I wanna hope that those systems can work, but in this case specifically, it seems like it did not. Anne: And me listening to that, at least the way you laid out the facts. As an abuse expert, I came to the conclusion that he figured out what the parole board wanted to hear. Victims wondering if their husband is abusive, might know their husband is saying what they want to hear. He went to offender therapy and eventually learned the words he needed to say. And he parrots that back to the parole board to their satisfaction, in order to be paroled. I was so grateful they kept him in prison for so long. Because they could have let him out sooner. So that was a good part of the story, I thought. Dave: Yeah, in conversations with law enforcement. People who investigated that case, or in the legal profession who tried that case in court, that came up repeatedly. They said, look, in a homicide, or let’s say a manslaughter, somebody who kills another person, they might do 10 years and get out. The fact that Cary Hartman was in for more than 30 years was a big deal, and the reason he was in so long is because he refused to accept responsibility. And like you said, as a listener, I think it’s a fair takeaway to listen to all those years of him going before the parole board. And just slowly creeping forward. Is My Husband Abusive? Learning From Offender Programs & Counseling Dave: The little bit of accountability he would take until he reached that sweet spot where they said, okay, that’s enough. We’ll let you out. Anne: Cary Hartman is a scary guy, but how much scarier would he have been had he learned faster? Let’s say he had gone to offender therapy sooner and taken accountability sooner. And sounded better sooner. He could have been let out sooner. The scariest ones to me are the ones who know that’s what they need to sound like. In terms of my listeners husbands, that’s what they sound like in couple therapy. Or they might sound like that to clergy. And clergy might be like, yes, he’s repented. How do I help my listeners see, is this someone who is now safe or are you currently in danger? It’s so hard to idently if your husband is abusing you. At least, in danger of being emotionally and psychologically abused. In danger of an STD, being lied to is a concern when you’re supposed to trust. Dave: So if I can segue off of that. In season one of Cold. When we talked about the case of Josh and Susan Powell, so this is a married couple. They’ve got two young sons, and there’s this extreme strife going on in their marriage. Susan is upset that Josh is controlling the money. He’s controlling her ability to spend time with friends and family, and she tries to drag him into therapy. Doug Lovell & Manipulation Dave: She tries to drag him in front of clergy. We actually have evidence from writings that Susan left behind after she was killed. She talks about, Josh says, if I call the police, if I call 9 1 1 and say he’s threatening me. When the police get here, he’s gonna be calm, I’m gonna be hysterical. And he’ll make me the one who’s irrational. She was conscious of these very things. Moving forward, when we entered season two in Cold. There’s this story about Joyce Yost being murdered by this man, Doug Lovell. Doug Lovell goes to prison. He’s still in prison and had been sentenced to death twice. He’s had his death sentence overturned twice, and part of the reason is because since he went to prison. He has built relationships with clergy, people who go to prison to work with inmates, to help them hopefully become better people. They prepare them to be released. Doug Lovell will not be released. He is, as I said, serving a death sentence or in limbo while they figure out whether his death sentence will go forward. But those relationships and the way he talks to clergy have allowed him to essentially create a group of supporters. who, when he goes to court, when he goes to trial, are willing to stand up in front of a judge or a jury and say, I believe Doug Lovell is a man with a good heart. I believe he’s a man who’s changed. I believe he deserves a second chance. What we know is Doug Lovell murdered Joyce Yost and has refused to return her body. Doug Lovell’s Legal Battles Anne: Right, flat out manipulation Doug Lovell used to convince some people that he has a “good heart.” The evidence would be that he tells people exactly where that body is, which he has not done. Dave: Right, that’s how you show true remorse in my mind, yeah. Anne: In our community, we actually call this meatloafing. It’s from The Meatloaf song I would do anything for love, but I won’t do that. Dave: This is interesting, and it gets into the weeds of the court case. Lovell, there’s no question he’s responsible. He did admit to it, but that was part of a plea deal in 1993, where he was trying to get a chance for life with parole. At the time, Utah did not have a law that allowed life without parole, so the choice was life with parole or the death sentence. And he thought, if I admit to it, there’s this plea deal on the table. And I will have a chance of getting out of prison. Before the case actually went to sentencing, though, the law changed, and the prosecutors pulled life with parole off the table. And at that point Lovell said, I don’t want to plead guilty anymore. And this is part of why that case ended up going through appeal after appeal. The death sentence ended up being rescinded because the appeals courts determined that Lovell was not appropriately advised of the rights he was giving up. So he goes back to trial in 2015. The problem is that he’s admitted on the record that he killed Joyce Yost. That fact is not in dispute. Tactics Of Abusive Husbands: Manipulative Letters And Emails Dave: How do you go in front of a jury and say, yes, I killed this person. But and that’s where these religious leaders came in. They went before the court and said, in all those years, Lovell is a changed man. Anne: Listening to the manipulative letters Doug Lovell sent those religious leaders was surreal. Because they sound almost exactly like the manipulative letters that so many of the victims I talk to receive. In fact, I have actually created a workshop to show women the patterns of these types of manipulative letters. It’s in my Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop. So listeners, if you want to learn more about that, click that link. I show women how abusive it is, so they can identify the abuse. And then how to respond in terms of Doug Lovell. It was very unnerving to hear that these religious leaders fell for this type of manipulation. In fact, judges fall for this type of manipulation too. There are cases in Utah where the abusive man is in jail, but he writes manipulative and abusive letters to his kids, and the victim is court ordered to show these manipulative, abusive letters to her own children. Which to talk about Susan Powell again. I mean, she was killed, but Josh Powell, her murderer, still had parental rights. Dave: Yeah, so let me set the table for that a little bit. Josh Powell, after his wife, “disappears” in 2009. Within a couple of weeks, he takes his two sons, Charlie and Braden, with him. He leaves Utah and goes to Washington state. And he lives under his father’s roof. A few things happen there. Washington State Does Nothing Dave: The West Valley City Police Department has a circumstantial case that Josh murdered his wife, and that’s getting stronger as time goes forward. What they don’t have is direct physical evidence. Like a body linking Josh to Susan’s death. And so…
Warning Signs Your Husband Is Dangerous – Susan’s Story With Dave Cawley
Apr 29, 2025
Show notes
If you’re searching for warning signs your husband is dangerous it’s important to know that many victims “only” experience emotional abuse until . . . Anne Blythe, founder of Betrayal Trauma Recovery, talks to Dave Cawley, host of the Cold podcast series, about the Susan Powell case, empowering victims to protect themselves and seek safety now. This Is the First Episode With Dave CawleyWarning Signs Your Husband Is Dangerous – Susan’s Story With Dave Cawley (THIS EPISODE)Patterns To Look Out For In Your Relationship Abuse Doesn’t Always Mean Physical Battering Many abuse victims do not have proof. They don’t have bruises or broken bones to show the world that their partner is abusing them. Instead, their bruises and brokenness are hidden beneath the surface. They can be found in the way they doubt their own worth, in the way they feel they are responsible for their husband’s choices. Other forms of abuse, just as serious as physical battering, include: Emotional abuse Psychological abuse Financial abuse Sexual abuse Sexual Coercion Spiritual abuse Covert physical abuse Like many women in the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Community, Susan Powell was not a victim of physical battering, as far as experts can tell. But she suffered deeply from the abusive behaviors of her husband, Josh. To see if you’re a victim of this type of abuse, take our Emotional Abuse Quiz. Susan Powell’s Story Teaches Us That Victim-Blaming Harms Questions and statements like: If it was so bad, why didn’t she leave? It takes two to tango Why did you push his buttons? Why don’t you work harder on making sure he’s happy? He’s not hitting you, are you sure it’s abuse? Even after Susan Powell’s ten year disappearance, many still blame her subtly by asking, “If it was so bad, then why did she stay?” As Dave says, the societal focus should be on why so many men are abusing women, not why women are staying in abusive relationships. Susan Powell’s Story Teaches Us That Anyone Can Be A Victim Josh Powell was diagnosed with Narcissistic Personality Disorder. However, even those who are not diagnosed with NPD can be narcissistic abusers. The mental and emotional toll that narcissistic abuse takes on victims is extreme. Becoming educated about narcissistic abuse. And protecting themselves through effective boundaries can help women find safety from this insidious form of abuse. 3 Tips For Seeking Safety From Abuse Trust your gut. If it feels like something is off, it probably is. Don’t ignore that feeling. You have more support than you realize. A lot of times, we don’t recognize how strong and wide our network is. Reach out, you might be surprised. If you leave, you’re going to be okay. It’s scary to leave, but it’s not as scary as you probably think, once you’re on the other side. Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group meets multiple times a day and offers women a community of supportive, validating, and knowledgeable women to help them find safety from betrayal and abuse. Join today and share your story, process your trauma, ask hard questions, and vent painful feelings. Transcript: Warning Signs Your Husband Is Dangerous Anne: I recorded this interview in 2019. At a very intense time during my ex-husband’s post-separation abuse. I interviewed Dave Cawley, host of the cold podcast. And I want to give a shout out. He was so willing to listen to me back in 2019. So thank you from the bottom of my heart for using the interview to learn more about my story and other victims. I genuinely felt like he cared about me personally and that he cared for all victims. So thank you to Dave Cawley and all men who are standing up for abuse victims. Dave is a graduate of the University of Utah’s journalism school. And then went to work as a field reporter in Salt Lake City. Dave joined KSL. And then in 2018, he moved into a new role as executive producer of digital content. On December 14th, 2018. KSL and Dave launched the podcast series Cold. The first season focused on the unsolved disappearance of Susan Powell. That story was close to Dave because he reported on Susan’s suspected murder from the beginning in December 2009. And continues to dig for new details. Cold reached number one on the Apple podcast chart on the day of its release. Welcome, Dave. Dave: Thanks, Anne. I really appreciate being on. My Personal Connection To Susan’s Story Anne: The story of Susan Powell broke the year after I was married. I got married in 2008. And so in 2009, when Susan first went missing, I closely followed the story. I had a sense at that time that something was wrong in my own marriage. I wouldn’t say at the time that I could comprehend what was happening, or even verbalize that my husband was abusive. Something about Susan’s story was calling to me. On the day Josh murdered his sons and proved himself a murderer, I was at a family dinner with my parents and siblings, and also my husband. I said, out loud, “If anything happens to me. He killed me.” I wanted to make sure he heard me say that to everyone because I thought that would help keep me safe. Six years later, in 2015, he was arrested for domestic violence. And that is what helped me understand what was happening. From your research of Susan Powell. Can you talk about how she felt at the beginning of her relationship? Dave: Yeah, I can speak specifically to the circumstances of Josh and Susan’s marriage, because I had a unique opportunity to research and study those. Certainly, I don’t know the totality of Susan’s mind at any given point in time. All I can go on are the clues she left us, what she wrote in her journal. What she wrote to her friends in emails, messages, things like that. That we drew in to use for the cold podcast. But I will say Susan and Josh met when Susan was barely out of high school. She was very young. And if you look at Susan at that time, she was a great student. Susan Powell’s Story Teaches Us That Abusive Men Want To Be The Center Of Their Wife’s Universe Dave: She was very hardworking, going to cosmetology school easily. In my opinion, she could have walked into any of the colleges around Washington where she lived at the time. But Josh quickly, after they started dating, isolated her. And he made her life all about him and their relationship. He did it very subtly. He used the creation almost of a mythology for their relationship. That this was a very almost fated kind of thing. That they met and fell in love. And they’re so about each other. One another when in reality, from I think an objective point of view. You can look and say, well, it was all about how she served him, not how he served her. He was not doing things in their relationship that were advancing her best interests. He wasn’t going out of his way to do things to make her happy. But because of her age and because of, I think some of her experience dating as a teenager, when she met Josh and he talked the big talk. She kind of fell into the idea of being in love and in this relationship. They get married quickly. So within six months of beginning to date, they’re married. And it’s pretty clear from the get go that things are not good in their relationship, because Josh can’t keep a job. And every time he loses a job, it’s the fault of the employer. It’s never his fault. Something keeps him down. And so Susan, from the beginning, has to work multiple jobs to try to make ends meet. And help Josh get in a better place where he can hold a job. Anne: I mean, when do you notice the signs your husband might kill you? Warning Signs Of A Dangerous Husband Dave: They have to move in with family several times, which is not a good situation. As we later learned, her father-in-law is a very unsavory individual, to put it mildly. Then it gets more complicated when children enter the mix. Josh and Susan move away from Washington in part to get away from Josh’s dad. And some bad things and make a fresh start. So Susan at that point, in my opinion, still doesn’t see the origin of the problems. And thinks, hey, if we just get away from Washington, if we get to Utah. And we get away from the complicated family dynamics, then Josh and I can make it work. Anne: She still doesn’t see signs her husband might kill her. But almost no one does until it’s too late.. Dave: No sooner do they get here than it’s the same dynamic, right? Susan’s breadwinning. She can hold a job, her husband is holding her back.But they conceive their first child. And that is when Susan starts to see the problems, because Josh as a father is not helpful. That is in 2005, and then it’s a downhill slide from there for a couple of years. After they have their second child, Brayden, Josh disconnects. And the conflict comes out into the open. Josh has been dismissive of Susan for many years. But once she starts sticking up for herself, she has things that matter to her that are of value to her in her life, her religion, and her standards. Susan Powell’s Story Teaches Us That Victims Need Support Dave: And Josh is unwilling to practice those himself, but also to allow her to practice her own religion. Do things like pay her tithing, attend church with her, things like that. And he’s also actively undercutting her to the children, talking about how bad it is that mom goes to church, and how they don’t need to go to church with mom. And don’t listen to stuff mom says. Which I think any rational person in a marriage would say is not an okay dynamic. That is when I think Susan starts recognizing that things are not good. She starts dropping hints to friends that she feels in danger, but then when other people tell her hey, you’re in a bad situation. You need to get out of here. She will justify why she’s staying in. Anne: Well, having been in that situation myself. It’s really a situation where you have two bad options. Staying in the marriage is bad, and divorce will also be bad. You’re trying to figure out which bad scenario is the least bad one. I was struck in the podcast. Susan did what she was supposed to do as a victim of abuse. She reached out for help. But clergy told her that if you both work on your issues, this can be worked out. She wasn’t told her husband is dangerous. Since we have over 150,000 women in our community. I hear women report this all the time. Instead of recognizing his abuse they get their abusive husband into therapy or they’re told to go to couple therapy. Can you talk more about what happened when Susan went for help? Dave: That’s tough. Let me speak to some of the circumstances with Josh and Susan and counseling, and we’ll get there. Clergy & Counseling Didn’t Keep Her Safe Dave: Because conversations with clergy are confidential. We’re pretty limited in knowing exactly what kind of advice Josh and Susan received. But Susan did write in a couple of places about going to see her bishop, both with Josh and on her own. You can imagine this is a marriage at a very low point. They’re at each other’s throats. And yeah, Susan is argumentative. I mean, she’s not one to passively just go with the flow. So when she’s unhappy, she’s venting about it. Josh points at her as she’s the one causing all this conflict. Anne: What she’s “complaining about,” and I have that in air quotes, is his abuse. Dave: Right. Anne: Right. Dave: She’s not identified it as such at this point, right? Anne: He’s basically saying, I’m mad at her for being mad at me about my abuse. Dave: Right, in so many words, yeah. Anne: Yeah. Dave: Every indication I have is that the clergy they spoke to said. “We are not qualified to be your marriage counselor, so let’s connect you with services.” So that’s how Susan originally gets involved with marriage counseling. It’s 2008, and Josh refuses to go. The counselor she was talking to in 2008 identified and said you are being abused. Anne: Oh, okay. Dave: And this is when Susan first understood that because her dad was in town and actually went to the session with her. Chuck Cox, Susan’s dad, talks about how afterwards she turned to him and said, Do you think that’s true? Am I being abused? And her dad’s going, yes. Anne: Yes, but she doesn’t see signs that her husband may harm her. Signs Your Husband Is Dangerous You: Explicit Content Dave: I think too, Anne, what happens is specifically in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. You have lay clergy, and oftentimes, especially at the local level, these people are your neighbors. It can feel very close, I think even for some of those members of clergy. To be in the business of the personal lives of their neighbors, and that’s uncomfortable. And I don’t want to say there’s not accountability in the same way that maybe a professional clergy. But it’s a little different in that religious community. Just because of the way those relationships exist. Sometimes between the people approaching, a bishop or stake president, or something like that, as opposed to other faiths. Anne: Yeah, and many times clergy, rather than tell the victim, this is an abuse situation, your husband is dangerous, you need to get to safety. They focus on helping him. Like to reactivate someone into the church or to repent. But they don’t realize it’s keeping a victim in proximity to the abuse. I listened to the cold podcast, and surprisingly how pornography played such a large role in developing Josh’s character. Can you talk about the role that it played in his abuse before the murder? Dave: Yeah, this is a very interesting topic for discussion, because we have a pretty good record thanks to the divorce filings for Josh’s parents going back into the mid 90s. So Josh is a teenager, and his mom divorces his dad. In part because Josh’s dad did a lot of things that were not good. There’s some pretty good indication in those filings, that he introduced his kids to explicit content when they were young, both sons and daughters. Josh Powell’s Secret Double Life Dave: Because of that, we know Josh was exposed to explicit material at an early age. We know Josh was actually, by his own disclosure later to a psychologist. He is arrested at one point for stealing explicit magazines from a convenience store. You see early on that this is part of his life. It’s not until after Susan disappears, and police seize computers out of their home. And those computers are scoured for evidence, we see what happened in the meantime. After he and Susan were married, they found many very concerning images on Josh’s computer that had been deleted for the most part. They were in what’s called free space, but Josh regularly watched it on the computer. And Susan talked a lot to her friends in messages and things that Josh was protective of his computer. She was not allowed to use his computer except to do his chores, scanning his papers, receipts, and things. She wanted to get on the internet and Facebook and things like that. He would not allow her to do that on his computer. She had to have her own computer, which he was unwilling to pay for. So that protective behavior, I think, personally speaks to Josh knowing that there’s material on this computer that he does not want her to find. I know there are people in law enforcement who believe the catalyst for Susan’s disappearance and murder may have been her locating something like that, calling Josh’s attention to it. And saying this is a step too far. We’re done. That’s speculation, but I think Josh’s viewing of it played a role, especially because Susan writes a lot about how he wouldn’t touch her. Anne: This abuse and secret explicit materials use might be signs your husband is dangerous. Susan Powell’s Story Teaches Us To Pay Attention To Our Gut Dave: He wouldn’t show the normal types of affection that you would expect in a relationship like that. He would not hold her hand. He wouldn’t kiss her. When they were physically intimate, which was rare, he did not view it as beautiful and shared. It was very clinical. I’m trying not to be too graphic here. I want to be careful to protect Susa…
How To Protect Yourself Financially If Your Marriage Is Struggling
Apr 22, 2025
Show notes
It’s shocking how common financial abuse in divorce is. Here are the best ways to protect yourself. Divorce is hard. If you’ve been married to a narcissistic abuser, it can feel even more impossible to break free. These individuals often don’t stop their controlling behavior after a divorce is filed. Instead, they escalate their attempts to assert power. One of the most common—and devastating—ways narcissistic abusers do this is through financial abuse. If you’re a woman divorcing a narcissist, it’s vital to understand how financial abuse works and how to protect yourself. To discover if you’re emotionally abused, take thisfree emotional abuse quiz. What Is Financial Abuse in Divorce? Financial abuse is an abuser’s way of gaining and maintaining power by controlling access to money and resources. During a divorce, this often includes tactics like withholding financial support, hiding assets, or intentionally complicating legal and financial processes. To wreak havoc on their victim’s stability. The abuse doesn’t necessarily stop after divorce—it can take on new, cruel forms, keeping victims entangled in elaborate schemes long after ties should have been cut. Why Do Narcissists Use Financial Abuse In Divorce? Narcissistic abusers are motivated by control. They want to undermine your autonomy, manipulate your decisions, and make you dependent on them. Anne Blythe, the founder of Betrayal Trauma Recovery, explains it clearly, “Narcissistic abusers are very calculated. They control where, when, and how they show their true colors. At home, they ‘lose their temper.’ Outside of it, they maintain a polished, socially acceptable image. Financial abuse is yet another method for them to assert power at your expense.” When you understand that financial abuse stems from their need for control—not because of your mistakes or shortcomings—you’re better equipped to set boundaries and protect your well-being. Financial Abuse In Divorce Tactics Financial abuse takes many forms. These are some of the most common examples of what narcissists might do to use financial abuse in divorce proceedings to maintain control over your life: 1. Hiding Income or Assets An abuser may attempt to conceal money, savings accounts, or investments to make it appear as though they have less than they do. This could limit the entitled financial settlement. One victim shared, “He told us he was so poor that our church had to pay his mortgage and car payment—almost $2,000 a month. But when my lawyer looked at his financial records, we found out the truth. He spent thousands of dollars on alcohol and other bad stuff, and even putting a lot of money into his retirement account while pretending he had no money.” 2. Cancelling Credit Cards or Withholding Financial Support It’s not uncommon for abusers to cancel shared credit cards or refuse to pay child or spousal support during the divorce process, leaving victims unable to meet daily expenses. 3. Overwhelming With Legal Delays Dragging out divorce proceedings is another method of control. By filing unnecessary motions, refusing to negotiate, or missing deadlines, abusers increase costs and prolong the emotional strain to maintain dominance. 4. Sabotaging Employment Some women report that abusers interfere with their ability to work—such as creating emotional stress, harassing them at work, or withholding child care arrangements—to keep them dependent on the abuser’s finances. The abuser uses these tactics to exhaust you, and designed to make you feel stuck. The good news? You can overcome them. 5. Manipulating Child Visitation They might withhold child support payments or use visitation schedules to intentionally disrupt your financial planning. What It Feels Like Post-divorce financial abuse can feel relentless. Another victim of financial abuse after divorce said. “For over two years, I dealt with him purposefully withholding child support and blocking me from accessing what the court decided was mine.” How To Protect Yourself From Financial Abuse Protecting yourself from financial abuse requires awareness, preparation, and boundaries. Here are the most effective actions to take: Work With a Trusted Family Lawyer: Hire an experienced lawyer who understands financial abuse. They can help you subpoena records like bank statements and tax returns, ensuring hidden assets don’t slip through the cracks. Discuss protective measures like restraining orders, mediation, or legally established limits with your divorce attorney. These can stop further harassment or financial tampering. Collect and Organize Financial Documentation: Gather everything—pay stubs, credit card statements, bank records, tax returns, and more. Keep copies in a secure, private location or store them digitally for easy access. Open Individual Accounts: Set up a personal checking and savings account in your name. Immediately update your paycheck direct deposits and remove your abuser’s access to shared accounts. Learn Strategy: It’s imperative that you learn how to think strategically about and communicate with a narcissist. Enroll in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop to learn more. Seek Expert Emotional Support: You don’t have to go through this alone. There are resources, like the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast or group sessions, where women who’ve faced similar challenges can offer advice and emotional support. Finding Empowerment & Healing from Financial Abuse During Divorce Financial abuse is one of the hardest forms of abuse to endure, especially during something as emotional as divorce. However, with the right tools, planning, and support, you can rise above it. Remember, what they do says a lot about them—and nothing about you. Focus on building your own emotional and financial security, so you can live free from their control. If you’re struggling to process or prepare for financial abuse, Betrayal Trauma Recovery is here to help, join one of our group sessions for women or explore our workshops to gain valuable skills in navigating financial and emotional abuse. You deserve safety, security, and peace. Transcript: Financial Abuse in Divorce: How To Protect Yourself I have Brenda on today’s episode. She’s going to share her expertise as a financial advisor about financial abuse in divorce. Welcome, Brenda. Brenda: Hello, Anne. It’s really good to be here Anne: Thank you so much for coming on today. Let’s talk about finances. Brenda: Because everyone is always so excited to talk about finances, right? Anne: One of the things I want to ask victims is, if you had a billion dollars, would you stay married to him? And the answer is usually no. They’re so afraid because they’re trapped. They don’t know how they’re going to take care of their kids, and they don’t want to work. They didn’t sign up for that. Sometimes they do work, but figuring out how I support a family by myself is so overwhelming. What are the best ways to take financial stuff off the table, so women can make decisions based on their safety, not finances? Brenda: I love your question about if you had a billion dollars. I think that’s very clarifying. Gathering Financial Information Brenda: And that gives an indication of, are they staying in that space, relationship or marriage because they hope things will change? Or is it simplified? Is it solely financial? And then if the answer to the billion dollar question is no, I would not stay here. I would want out. Information is power. So that’s where you start gathering information. And oftentimes, an individual who does leave an abusive relationship might have the means, they might be protected. They might be okay financially. But someone keeps them in the dark, perhaps about their financial situation.So they might not have the financial records, they might not know what their spouse makes. They might be on an allowance. If you don’t have financial information about your family. Or if your family’s financial situation is in shape. It’s hard to know. You’re just in a space of fear because it’s unknown. Will you face financial abuse in divorce? So the first thing is to become knowledgeable, if you can, about your true financial situation. Sometimes it can be overt. They could talk to their spouse about needing access. And depending on whom they’re dealing with, they might get it. Or, if they don’t have any access, then it becomes, let’s call it a treasure hunt. Where you’re picking up bits and pieces of the financial picture to try to understand what your options are, what your situation is. The other piece of that, if you’re considering leaving and if leaving means divorce, is to get smart about what the rules are in your area. I’ve heard it said there are like 33 hundred counties in the United States, something like that. Don’t quote me on the exact number. Financial Abuse In Divorce: The Importance of Financial Knowledge Brenda: And there are just as many ways to be divorced. So rules vary state by state rules and rights. They vary from municipality to municipality. That at least gives people grounding or information data to start figuring out, you know, would they be okay? Anne: In The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop, we have a section about finances, and Living Free is not about getting divorced. It’s about seeing reality. In the beginning, when women got to that part, they were like, does she want me to get divorced? And the answer is not yes or no. I’m not trying to push anybody in any direction, but I want them safe. And financial safety is such a huge part of this puzzle. In Living Free, when people talk about physical abuse, many people who listen to this podcast are not necessarily physically assaulted. They’re not being punched, they don’t have bruises. They’re experiencing emotional and psychological abuse and coercion, it’s difficult to see. I want people to start to think about the threats of not having a home, not putting food on the table, not having a roof over your head, not being able to pay for gas to get around, that is a physical threat. This is why getting to physical safety is part of deliverance from abuse. Brenda: Sure. It’s your basic fundamental human needs. Anne: Exactly, so if they’re threatening, if you divorce me. Then you’ll never be able to take care of yourself. There will be financial abuse in divorce. Are you thinking that in your mind is a physical threat? It’s extremely physical, and I see it as physical abuse. So think, is this threat of physical harm the thing that keeps me from getting to safety? Steps To Financial Safety Anne: Being educated about your finances and what you need is one step toward not just financial safety, but also physical safety. Because if you know you can take care of yourself, that is such a relief. Even if I never got any money from him, I could keep a roof over my head, pay my bills and buy food. That sort of thing. Brenda: And it lets people figure out what other information they need and what decisions they need to make. If baseline is, oh, I could… Everyone is different. I could go back to work. In our area. There are programs that help women in abusive situations retrain and get to a living wage. Is that available near you? Do you have enough assets that you have every right to take? Every situation will be different. But unless you have the information, you can’t figure out what your next steps are. Anne: When you said talk to him, that made me nervous, because I was like, whoa. You might tip him off, and then he might start hiding money, which is financial abuse in divorce. And he might start manipulating you. So aside from talking to him, what tips do you have for how they can start to find information about their finances? Brenda: I’m just going to backtrack to talking to him for a minute. Yes, it could. And everyone knows their relationship and situation better than anyone else. I have had people who will get the information, and they do use a ruse. It will be, I need it to sign Susie up for soccer, or I want to go to this workshop with my sister, and learn how to understand taxes. Can I have our tax return? The Role Of Credit Reports Brenda: So it might not be overt, and they still have access to the information. I would say anywhere you can get it. If you can get logins, yes, then you can go online. However, there are flags there, because if you log into the bank account, that bank account or credit card might register the login. They might be set so that there’s an alert. Someone logged into your account at 2:24 this afternoon. You got to be aware that that’s out there too. If. You are in such a situation where you’re cut off from all of that information. So it just as asking someone directly could present danger, know that logging into things could as well. Anne: That is a good point, I hadn’t thought of that. I like the ruse idea, that, hey, I’m going to be logging into this thing, can I have the login? Because I’m doing blah blah blah, that is a reason not related to him. Not like, you seem like you’re an abuser. I’m considering leaving you, and I don’t want to experience financial abuse in divorce. Can I have the login? It’s probably the worst idea, I think Brenda: You’re exposing yourself. So unfortunately, as you and your listeners all know, you’re walking a fine line, and they’re in a precarious situation, but they also usually know. I know from my own experience, I would often know the things that were going to, like tee up an issue, explosion or anger. Sometimes you don’t. And sometimes that’s another problem, right? It’s out of the blue. Financial Abuse In Divorce: Facing Realities Brenda: Hey, I just put cheese on that sandwich. I didn’t think it was going to. …cause World War III. Anne: They get unpredictable when they feel like they don’t have control. And so that’s why I’m concerned about like, so many women have told me, oh, he’ll never do that. Never underestimate how much your narcissist ex doesn’t want to leave you alone. So many of our clients here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, they’re like, oh, I’m getting divorced, but I’ve got it all ready to go. It’s going to go well. He told me he’ll always take care of me. And then, like a hundred percent of the time, it does not. They experience financial abuse in divorce. And it goes the way he manipulated her to think it’s going to go, it always goes sideways. Brenda: And the system is built for that. People often going through divorce think, I will be heard, finally. The system will protect me. I trust the system to do its job. It’s not going to. We don’t even know what the job is half the time. If you get all the way to trial, the decisions are being made by a judge who might be late for a dentist appointment. They’re paying half or no attention to your story. And then they’re going to rule. You can’t trust the system, you can know the rules. You can try to figure out what is your bottom line? What’s your worst case scenario? Where are you protected? Where are you exposed? But circling back to like where you can get the information. Becoming Your Own Investigator Brenda: You turn yourself into a little sleuth. So your own little private investigator, do you get the mail when the mail comes in? Do bills come? You can order a credit report, and you can do that separately. So at least, you know what credit cards exist, and how long they’ve existed. That’s another way that sometimes exposes hidden debts or hidden money. It depends on your situation in your household and where the safe conversations are. And a lot of that is, I would say, catering to the abuser. Anne: I would say strategically talking to him rather than catering, but yes. Brenda: Yes, so you’re figuring out. What is the information you’re looking for? How can you get it? What is a viable reason for having it that isn’t going to create a situation that’s going to make life more difficult for you? And worsen financial abuse in divorce. Anne: Getting a credit report. That…
Healing Trauma From Hidden Abuse – What Gets In Our Way? Penny’s Take
Apr 15, 2025
Show notes
Hidden abuse is characterized by lies and manipulation, and it causes trauma that’s hard to recognize. To discover if you’re experiencing any of the 19 types of hidden abuse, take our free emotional abuse quiz. This episode follows Penny’s StoryHow to Start to Heal From Emotional Abuse – Penny’s StoryHealing Trauma From Hidden Abuse – What Gets In Our Way? – Penny’s Take (THIS EPISODE) What Is Hidden Abuse? One of the biggest obstacles in healing trauma from hidden abuse is understanding what’s happening to you. The constant barrage of lies and manipulation from the abuser can make it incredibly difficult for women to see the reality of their situation. Gaslighting, a common tactic, can distort a woman’s perception of reality, making her doubt her judgment and experiences. Traditional therapists, clergy, and even well-meaning friends and family may not recognize hidden abuse for what it is. Barriers To Discovering Hidden Abuse: Lack of Understanding: Many women fail to recognize lies, pornography use, and infidelity as forms of emotional and psychological abuse. Misguided Strategies: Conventional advice focuses on improving communication and forgiveness rather than educating about abuse and implementing safety strategies. Isolation: Feeling misunderstood leads to social withdrawal, making it harder to seek support. Being Dismissed: Without a supportive network that acknowledges abuse, women begin to question their experiences and feelings. Stigma: Fear of judgment and the stigma of “giving up on the relationship” or not being a good wife prevents women from seeking emotional safety. Guilt and Shame: Self-blame (or being blamed by the abuser) stops women from reaching out for help. Trying to Fix Yourself: Believing the problem lies within themselves keeps women from finding emotional safety. Confusion: Manipulation tactics like gaslighting cause confusion and self-doubt. Entrapment: Continued manipulation leaves women feeling trapped. Pressure to Reconcile: Cultural and religious norms prioritize preserving the marriage over individual well-being. When You Go For Help, But They Don’t Identify Hidden Abuse If you’ve tried to figure out what’s going on and you haven’t been able to feel more emotionally safe, there is help. The Free Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast helps women learn more about how to spot hidden abuse. Healing Trauma From Hidden Abuse IS Possible If you’re struggling to heal the trauma from hidden abuse, consider attending a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session TODAY and take the first step toward a brighter, healthier future. Transcript: Healing Trauma From Hidden Abuse Anne: Penny is back on today’s episode. You can find her story in an episode called How to Start to Heal from Emotional Abuse, Penny’s story. We wanted to talk about the aftermath of emotional abuse, how it’s misunderstood by people in general, and how to face that. So welcome back, Penny. Penny: Thank you. Thank you for having me. Anne: So this type of hidden abuse where you don’t have someone charged with domestic violence. Why do you think it’s so hard for people to understand what it takes to heal trauma from hidden abuse? Penny: Yeah, I think like you said, they don’t see any bruises, scars, or black eyes. We want to fit in and be accepted. We don’t want to be different. And so we look normal on the outside, but the inside is where the pain, results, and leftover baggage from emotional abuse is. Things like fear, anxiety, and unsureness. Am I doing the right thing? Am I saying the right thing? And so this kind of stuff lingers with a person for a long time, or at least in my case, a very long time. And still does, even though I’ve been working on recovery for decades. Anne: Yeah, the lack of self confidence is due to emotional abuse, because that was the purpose of the emotional abuse. This is why it’s so important to find a betrayal trauma support group. For years, someone intentionally undermined your sense of self, and also purposefully undermined your, I call it a sacred internal warning system, where you know something’s wrong. Rebuilding Self-Identity Anne: You’re trying to resist something that’s harming you. You don’t have the words to describe it. You’re going to the person who is harming you and telling him, “You’re harming me”, but he already knows. He knows he’s exploiting you. So he takes that as a cue, “Okay, I need to undermine her sense that something’s wrong.” Otherwise, I’m not able to exploit her.” So it doesn’t help to share your feelings with him. He purposefully erodes your sense of self over time. And when you’re safe from the abuse and not exposed to it anymore, rebuilding that sense of self is such a process. Penny: Part of the emotional abuse I was put through was with my stepmother when I was a child, and it carried with me to my young adulthood when I married early. My stepmother told me constantly, you’re dumb, you’re stupid, you’re worthless, you’ll never amount to anything. So, of course, I had a low opinion of myself going into adulthood. Even though on the outside, you may not have seen that. It was trauma from hidden abuse. And so when I married young and married a partner who tried to control me and told me that I was in sin. Because the pastor told him that I was in sin, he wouldn’t listen to me. There was nothing to talk about, and I was wrong. And as soon as I repented, we would be back to normal, and all would be fine. And I think it was pressure to have me confess to something, because I was too strong willed for this particular church and this particular pastor. I was too questioning. And wasn’t as docile as they wanted women to be. Societal and Religious Scripts That Hide Abuse Penny: And they actually taught that women should submit to husbands, that they should glorify God by glorifying their husbands. This is when biblical submission becomes abuse. So anything I said or did that wasn’t according to the pastor or my husband’s wishes was considered wrong. And I was told this constantly. So, when I left that abusive situation finally at 32, I questioned everything I did and said. Because my whole life, my childhood, my young adulthood, my early 20s. I was told I was wrong and my thinking was wrong, and who I was wasn’t good enough. The trauma from hidden abuse doesn’t go away overnight. And it takes a community. In my case. I moved far away and left the church. I stopped practicing that religion, and I surrounded myself with people who were smarter than me. That liked me and accepted me for who I was. And here’s an example of how I rebuilt it. One of my friends said, Penny, you should apply for this job. We have an opening at my firm. This woman was college educated, and I wasn’t, and she worked in finance, which I hardly knew what that meant. And she said, “You should apply to this job.” And I said, oh no, I can’t. I’m too stupid. And she said, Penny, you’re not stupid. You’re smart, and we’ll train you. You should apply. Guess what? I applied and they hired me over 30 or 40 other resumes that they had on their desktop. I saw a stack of resumes. Realizing Self-Worth Penny: So I knew, wait a minute, maybe my stepmother, ex-husband and pastor, maybe they were all wrong. And that’s how I slowly started rebuilding my life, surrounding my life with people who believed in me and held up a mirror to me that said, “You’re not stupid, you’re not ugly, dumb, or worthless. You are able, and here’s the proof.” And then I started college. I put myself through community college, and I started getting A’s and B’s, and the teachers started calling on me in the classroom. They held me up as an example of here’s some good thinking, here’s a person who read the work, or here’s the person who gets this idea. And slowly over time, and I’m talking decades, with the help of friends, holding up a mirror to me and showing me who I was. I started to change my opinion of myself. But it took a long time, work, and struggle and pain. Because those old thoughts and those old scripts still played in my mind. Anne: One thing I want to point out to victims is that exploitation is such a huge part of trauma from hidden abuse. It is abuse in that they want something from you, your labor, your admiration. They want you to cook them dinner, have sex with them, or go to a party with them. They want something from you. So instead of caring about you, they care about what they can get from you. His Lies & Manipulation Will Always Be Hidden Abuse Anne: And because of that, anyone who hears, you’re not good at this. If we knew what was happening, the best defense is to say, in a strategic way. I actually teach this in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop. Is to say something like, oh, you’re right. I bet you don’t want to be around somebody like me. That makes sense. Then leave. Then they’re like, wait, no, you can’t go. We know exploitation is the issue, because if they think so poorly of us, why would they want to be around us? Why do they not want us to leave when we say, oh, okay, we’re going to leave? Suddenly they’re like, you can’t leave. And then they want to stop you from leaving by being even more abusive, which also doesn’t make sense. If you weren’t capable, powerful and talented, they wouldn’t have anything to exploit from you. I think that’s the thing they’re trying to hide. I think they’re thinking she’s capable, smart, and awesome. If she finds out how capable she is, how smart she is. She’s not going to want to stay here. So I’ve got to hide that from her, because I want to use her talents for myself. Heaven forbid, if she used her talents for her own self and her own life. Do you think your step mom was exploiting you? Penny: I absolutely do. She was handicapped, crippled and in pain. My father was no help to her at all. He didn’t provide well, or help around the house. She needed me, but there was more to it than that. These people who exploit us, who hurt us emotionally, psychologically and physically. In her case, she was bitter and angry. Exploitation By Family Members Penny: Now that I’m a much older person and look back on it, she was angry at herself. She married my dad, who was a complete loser. Her parents warned her. Her parents said, don’t marry this guy. He’s a liar. They saw through him. She didn’t. Or she did it anyway, because she wanted to get out of her house. They not only exploit us for our labor, in her case house cleaning, babysitting, and chores. We become their punching bag, because there’s nobody else to defend us. She knew my dad was never home. So she did it when he wasn’t home, of course, and when he came home late at night, was drunk. She had hours, she had all day until 8 or 9 at night to take advantage of me and create trauma this abuse was hidden from everyone else. They break us down and make us feel small to exploit us for our labor or whatever they want from us. Because if we’re smarter than them, yes, we will leave. And eventually I did when I was old enough and had the wherewithal. But I couldn’t leave at 8, 9, 10 or 11. I had no idea where to go or how to do it. Anne: Why do you think it’s so hard for other people to see this type of trauma from hidden abuse? When a victim is either in it or healing, and they might blame her. Or say something like, you’re just bitter or you need to move on, or why can’t you get over it? Even when you’re out of it. You’re not married anymore, for example, I’m talking about the universal you. Penny: Yes. Anne: A victim is not in the relationship anymore. She’s relatively safe. Healing Trauma From Hidden Post Separation Abuse Anne: Most of us experience post separation abuse. I was abused after my divorce for eight years through my ex’s messages about our children. So most women deal with post-separation abuse. And that’s why you know, we’re not “moving on” because the abuse is right then, like it happened today. He wrote me an abusive message and lied about me today. But in terms of women who are healing trauma from hidden abuse, and maybe in a stage where they need to talk about it. Or they’re trying to process what happened, and bystanders say things like. You need to move on, or why can’t you just forgive, or give your power away? Or any of these like super hurtful things, because they don’t understand that she is healing from this type of trauma. Penny: Part of it is that for people like you and myself, and those who have experienced hidden abuse. We get how deep and painful those wounds are, and how they don’t go away. And those fortunate enough to not have that happen to them, they don’t get it. They really don’t. That’s one of the reasons why we need somebody to talk to that will validate us and help us heal. And give us a safe place where we can talk about the everyday nightmares and fears that come up in routine life. Our friends, it’s quite possible they just don’t have the capacity. And someday they will. When Therapy Makes Things Worse Penny: One of the reasons to read memoirs that may be different than your life is so that you can learn what other people have to go through to survive and to succeed. I mean, that’s why I read memoirs and I think that’s how I learn about other people and how that happened to them. Anne: Reading is so valuable. You can get inside someone’s head in a way that you can’t from, like a movie or other experience. To develop compassion for others. But I also think that’s why it’s so important to ensure you’re connected with other women who understand. That’s why we do The Betrayal Trauma Recovery daily Group Sessions and Individual Sessions. Because everybody at Betrayal Trauma Recovery has been through it. We all totally get it. Even a good therapist who hasn’t been through it will have a different take. Than someone who has been a victim who understands hidden abuse on that deep personal level. What it’s actually like. Because we’ve had so many women come to us who have gone to therapy, and the therapy actually made the situation worse. Because they didn’t understand that she was resisting the abuse the entire time. In your story, if you haven’t heard it again, her episode is called, How to Start to Heal from Emotional Abuse, Penny’s story. There’s a part, Penny, where you move out into the country. And you did that as an act of resistance. You thought, maybe it will improve our marriage if I do this. Maybe I can make things work. The same thing with the church. But some therapists might say, why did you do that? If you knew things were so bad and didn’t like him, why did you move away? Safety Strategies To Protect Yourself Anne: And the answer is I’m resisting, I’m trying to improve things. I realize it did not improve things, but my intent was to improve things. Same thing with women who are being lied to and yelled at. They might have sex with their husband, for example, and a therapist might say, why did you do that? And it’s because I thought if I did, he would not be mad at me anymore. Penny: Nobody wants to be abused. Nobody wants to be exploited. We just don’t realize, especially if you’re stuck there financially and have children. It’s hard to leave if you’re financially dependent. And they make us emotionally dependent. It’s not your fault. If you’re a victim. Anne: They’ve done a lot of damage, but I think even if it’s not a therapist, just people around saying something like, why didn’t you do this? It’s just so not helpful. Penny: Not helpful. It’s actually hurtful, because then it makes you feel like something was wrong with you for not doing more. I don’t think you had a choice. Anne: As I interview victims experiencing hidden abuse, it’s interesting. Because I’m asking questions like, and then this happened, or tell me about what you were thinking? And that’s not to victim blame or say they did something wrong. But to help other victims realize that this thought process that all of us go through is common, and that they’re not doing anything wrong.…
How To Start To Heal From Emotional Abuse – Penny’s Story
Apr 08, 2025
Show notes
Is it possible to heal from emotional abuse and betrayal trauma? Everyday, brave women resist in a variety of ways. Penny shares her story of how she resisted abuse and finally was able to heal from emotional abuse. Attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session today to share your story with other women who have endured the same type of emotional and psychological abuse and begin healing from emotional abuse TODAY. This episode follows Penny’s StoryHow to Start to Heal From Emotional Abuse – Penny’s Story (THIS EPISODE)Healing Trauma From Hidden Abuse – What Gets In Our Way? – Penny’s Take Transcript: How To Heal From Emotional Abuse Anne: I have Penny Lane on today’s episode. She’s a writer, wife, and mother with an insatiable passion for life and books. Originally from Queens, she loves being outdoors. Cycling, hiking, traveling, and connecting to and inspiring people. She has a master’s degree in industrial and organizational psychology from Golden State University. And in her spare time, she helps underserved youth learn to read, apply to college and find jobs. Penny’s Journey Healing From Emotional Abuse And Helping Others Anne: Her book, Redeemed, A Memoir of a Stolen Childhood, she recounts how she was pressured into marriage and endured years of forced confessions, Salem style accusations, secretive disciplinary actions, and excommunication. Penny finally reached her breaking point, and we’re going to talk about her story today. Welcome, Penny. Penny: Thank you for having me. Anne: Why do you feel it’s important for you to speak out about your abuse and write this memoir? Penny: For one, I feel compelled to write it. Because I met a lot of people who have childhood trauma of different sorts and they tend to be ashamed of it. And the opposite is actually true. When we talk about it is when we begin to heal from emotional abuse, find relief, solace and community. I think it is important to write my story to remove some of the stigma involved with abuse or trauma. It will help others heal from emotional abuse as well. Anne: You were coerced into marrying your husband. Can you talk about the abuse that led to that and then also the abuse that you experienced from him? No Opportunity To Heal From Emotional Abuse From Childhood Penny: I was a 16 year old runaway when I met my husband. He was my boss. I worked at an IHOP as a waitress and he quickly saw that I was a very hard worker. He promoted me and then took me out on dates . Because I was a runaway, you know, it was basically living with a family and paying rent. I had no time to heal from the emotional abuse from my upbringing. Pretty soon he said, why don’t you move in with me? Then I was working for him and living with him. I didn’t have any friends. I didn’t have any family because I was a runaway. He started asking me to work more hours. At first I said yes, because he paid me a little bit extra and I made a lot of money waitressing. It was great. But then he wouldn’t take no for an answer. Let’s say I worked three double shifts in a row. Even though I was 16, it’s exhausting to be on your feet in a very fast moving restaurant for 12 hours, 14 hours a day. I tried to say, no. I’m too tired. Get someone else. And he’d say, this wasn’t a question. You need to get to work. Be there in five minutes or I’m coming to pick you up in five minutes. Manipulation and Control Anne: How old was he? Penny: He was six years older than me. He was 23, he left college, and was a restaurant manager for four or five years before I met him. So he was managing a staff of 30 or 40 people in a very busy, high revenue restaurant in a busy location. And he was domineering. A little while after we started dating, he started disappearing and I didn’t know where he was. The girls I worked with said, Oh, he’s got another girlfriend, blah, blah, blah. You know, I didn’t think that was true. Half of you doesn’t believe and half of you does. Religious Pressure Penny: So one time I went along with him to where he was going, because he said he was going to church. I thought, this guy gambles, drinks, curses and I didn’t think he was a very honest guy. And I didn’t think he would possibly be going to church. So I went along with him. And he had indeed gone to church. He went to a very fundamentalist, Bible believing, evangelical type church. This was in the 70’s, and it was quite emotionally wrought. The services were long and drawn out. At the end of the service, there was a call to walk the aisle, to accept Jesus as your personal savior. I wanted nothing to do with that. I thought it was totally weird. Besides, I had just run away from home. I didn’t want to belong to something else. I wanted to be free. Anne: Were you raised religious at all? Penny: No, I was born Catholic and communion at 12, under duress. I didn’t know anything. We didn’t really do anything. else. Forced Conversion Penny: So, long story short, once I went to the church, he would ask me each time he went. He went Wednesdays, Thursdays and twice on Sundays. He would just wait for me at the restaurant and say, okay, we’re going to church. I’d get in the car with him and we’d go. I wasn’t really given a choice . I went two, three weeks of this, going three or four times a week. People started pressuring me to accept Jesus and the story is very compelling. I’m sure you and your readers know this. It’s don’t you want to be loved forever? Yes, of course. Who doesn’t? Don’t you want to have a forever family? Don’t you want to have God’s love? Well, the answer to all of that is yes. I didn’t feel loved. Don’t you want to belong? Of course. I didn’t belong anywhere. Didn’t belong in my family. I didn’t have a family at the moment. So eventually I gave in to the emotional pressure of accepting Jesus and I walked the aisle Questioning Free Will Anne: At the time, did you feel like you were doing it of your own free will or at the time were you like, I don’t really want to do this, but in order to stay in his good graces, I have to do this. It’s hard to identify the effects of spiritual abuse. Can you talk about a bit of your thought process at the time? Penny: At the time I thought I was doing it for my own free will. But look, I was 17. And I was a runaway, working for this man, living with this man. I thought that he loved me. I loved him and this is what he’s doing with his life. In hindsight, I don’t know if it was really free will or if it was emotional manipulation and pressure. Because I knew that if I didn’t do this, I would have to walk away from the whole package. Leave him, my job, my living arrangement. And remember I was 17 and I didn’t know how to negotiate in the world. I didn’t know how to find an apartment or find a new job. Anne: This is also your first experience with religion. Penny: Yes, and he is my second boyfriend. I had a boyfriend while I was going through high school and I broke up with him because he wasn’t ambitious enough. Then I started working at the IHOP and I met this man. Though here’s the interesting thing that happened. It was a bait and switch. Abusive Restrictions Penny: At first it was all lovey dovey and Jesus loves you and you’re part of this forever family. But pretty soon the pastor’s wife and the other women in the church pulled me aside. And said, you can’t dress like that here. And again, I was 17. It was the seventies. We wore blue jeans, platform sandals, high heels, lots of makeup, long shaggy hair, and tight clothes. That’s what we wore, and that’s all I had. And all of a sudden, I couldn’t dress that way anymore. I had to wear skirts and I couldn’t wear makeup or wear less makeup. Anne: Only at church or all the time? Penny: Well, they talked to me about it at church. I really kind of didn’t have any other life. I worked in the restaurant, and I had a uniform. Then I went to church. We didn’t really do anything else. Because previously his life was drinking and going out to eat and drinking. We didn’t do that anymore because he stopped drinking and he stopped smoking. He didn’t pressure me outside of church, but at church I was required. And I kept arguing with the pastor and saying, you guys didn’t tell me this. Like, I don’t want to change. I like this and I liked that. It was a lot. And let’s fast forward three or four months. The pastor said, I want to meet with you guys on Friday night at my house. And so of course I was told I was off work and went to the pastor’s house and the pastor made me wait in the living room. He took my boyfriend into his study and they were gone about 10 minutes, maybe more. When he came out, my boyfriend looked very troubled. Engagement Under Duress Penny: He looked preoccupied. And he said, Penny, will you marry me? We’re living in sin and I can’t live in sin anymore. So will you marry me? He had talked to me about that before. My boyfriend had said to me like three or four visits after I got saved. He said, you know, we’re living in sin, right? I really didn’t know what he meant because I didn’t really have a concept of sin or hell or heaven, even though they talked about it at the church. I wasn’t absorbing it. Like my little 17 year old brain was looking at people and looking at clothes and looking at the guitar player and looking at the piano. I wasn’t able to comprehend that. So it meant nothing to me. And I didn’t feel guilty. Like, I hadn’t been a, what I would call a terrible sinner, right? I know now, because I’ve read the Bible, that like any sin, even jealousy is sin. At the time, I didn’t even think sleeping with your boyfriend was sin. I kind of knew it was wrong, but I didn’t equate it to sin. I didn’t feel any guilt in my heart whatsoever. However, unbeknownst to me, because he didn’t tell me yet, that my boyfriend did. He had been stealing from his boss, he had gambled, he had drank and slept around. He felt very guilty. And so he really absorbed this Christian thing and became all in from the minute he got saved. He immediately quit drinking and quit smoking cold turkey. And that wasn’t the case for me. So then we have this meeting with the pastor. Healing From Emotional Abuse While In Bible College Penny: He comes out and he says, will you marry me? Nobody twisted my arm physically, but again, I knew in that moment that if I didn’t say yes, I was out. I was out of a place to live, a job and out of the church. I thought I loved him at the time and I didn’t see a lot of dangerous signals yet. Again, I’m 17. The big thing was he didn’t beat me. So I assumed I was safe. We got engaged and we started planning a wedding. The church was very, very heavily involved. Very heavily, from the get go. I did end up finding another apartment and moving out. https://youtu.be/JOgZyAWjul8 So I didn’t live with him anymore after that. The church would talk to us about things like birth control. And again, I’m 17, and I’m thinking, Are you kidding me? If we can’t use birth control, I could have a baby a year for the next 20 years. I said, this is ridiculous. I was pushing back and I was pushing back so much that the pastor said to me, you have a rebellious spirit. We need to send you to Bible school. Increasing Pressure & Control Anne: I’ve heard this before. You have a rebellious spirit thing, Penny: So they sent me away to Bible school, literally. And you know what? I didn’t mind going because the pastor was overbearing and my then fiance, became overbearing. Because the way he looked at the world was different than the way I look at the world now. He looked at the world like the pastor said, therefore you need to do it. No free will. No your own relationship with God, even though that’s what they preach. He became like my spiritual director and enforcer. So I had to do whatever the pastor said. Whether I wanted to or not, whether I was ready to or not. And the pastor made me do some really strange things that I did not want to do. But again, under pressure from my boyfriend, here’s an example. The Bible says, children obey your parents. Well, that’s great when you’re living with your parents, maybe, but what happens if your parents beat you? So the pastor made me go back to my stepmother and ask her forgiveness for running away. Now I still had no opportunity to heal from emotional abuse from childhood, and this kind of advice compounded the problem. Anne: Even though you ran away because your stepmother was beating you. Submitting To Husband’s Abuse Penny: Beating me, mean to me, calling me names, withholding food. I was humiliated. And again I knew, if I don’t do this I have to walk away. So I did it. He even said, if she wants, you need to move back home. And I thought, you’ve got to be kidding me. I have been gone a year and a half. I have my own apartment, job and bank account. I’m engaged. Are you kidding? Nope. They weren’t kidding. So luckily, my stepmother said, no, I don’t have to move back that I would disrupt the family. I had a little sister and I’ve hurt my sister by running away. I wasn’t able heal from emotional abuse from childhood while still being abused. So luckily I didn’t have to do it, but that’s the kind of thing I mean about domineering and overbearing and making me do things. Now, as a middle aged woman, I look back and say. Why didn’t that tell me right then and there? Who’s going to be in charge of the relationship? That whatever my husband will say will be right. Not whatever I feel in my heart is right, but I didn’t see that. So I go away to Bible college for a year and it’s a wonderful, wonderful experience. Marriage & Moving Away Penny: During this time, things change at the IHOP. My husband quits and opens up a restaurant. The restaurant ends up failing. Now he’s out of a job and he’s out of money. He gets another job at IHOP, but it’s in Maryland. I’m thrilled to move away from this overbearing pastor. I finished Bible college. We get married after Bible college by that same pastor and immediately move away. Anne: And of course you would have had no idea how fundamentalism and patriarchy fuel abuse. Really quickly, how did you like Bible college? Penny: I loved it, and the reason I loved it is because it was in a beautiful, beautiful setting in upstate New York. I lived in an all girls dorm. I’ve never had friendships with girls my age before because I wasn’t allowed to. Anne: You have this good experience where you’re safe, you’re housed, have food. You’re getting an education, even though it’s something you didn’t expect. Penny: The college is a lot less focused on rules. I mean, there are rules. For instance at Bible colleges, Christian colleges in that time, I don’t know how it is today. You couldn’t wear pants. Even though it was winter, we wore long wool skirts over boots. It gets really cold in upstate. We had long coats. And there’s rules like that, but you can live with that, right? Because of the rest of it. You’re having a great time, studying and you’re going on little field trips. In the summer, you’re a camp counselor at a Christian camp. So it’s fun. It’s fun to be around other girls my age, something I’ve never had before. I graduate, we get married, we move away, I’m a New Yorker so I dress up. I’m back to wearing jeans and high heels and makeup and pretty dresses. I’m myself. Struggles With Abuse In Maryland Penny: We live in Maryland for about three years, and it’s rocky. It’s not an easy marriage because he’s domineering. Everything is his way. I feel lost but I don’t know what to do because the church teaches that divorce is sin. And further they teach that if you deliberately do something that you know is sin, like divorce. You may not even be a Christian at all, which is scary, right? Because if you’re a Christian, which I thought I was at the time, then you’re afraid of hell. You’re afraid of displeasing God. It’s a mind game. They differentiate between accidental sin, like, Oh, I fell into temptation. I committed adultery. That would be accidental sin.…
How to Know: Should I Get a Divorce?
Apr 01, 2025
Show notes
If you’re asking yourself, “Should I get a divorce?” you’re likely in a place of deep confusion. You might feel: Relieved at the thought of leaving Overwhelmed by what comes next Unsure if things are “bad enough” This isn’t a simple decision. And if your husband’s behavior includes addiction, secrecy, or emotional abuse, the usual advice to “just try harder” can make things even more confusing. Should I Get a Divorce? 7 Steps to Help You Decide This guide will walk you through how to know if you should get a divorce, so you can make a clear, grounded decision. 1. Start With What You’re Actually Experiencing Before asking, “Should I get a divorce?” ask… 👉 “What is it like to be married to him right now?” Pay attention to: Daily stress or chaos Walking on eggshells Feeling dismissed, ignored, or blamed Constant confusion about what’s true Your lived experience is really all that matters. 2. It MIght be More About Secrecy Than Obvious Problems Many women expect clear, undeniable proof of wrongdoing. But often, the biggest issue is secrecy. If he’s lying, you may not know he… has hidden bank accounts is withholding information doesn’t tell the truth about how he spends his time. 3. Does He Blame His Addiction For Your Marriage Problems? If your husband says he struggles with addiction, here’s what you’re probably dealing with: Lying Emotional distance Irritability or rage Manipulation This means the issue isn’t just the addiction itself, it’s how your husband acts and how his actions affect you. 4. Notice the Pattern of His Behavior Over Time Instead of focusing on isolated moments, zoom out. Ask: Does he… take responsibility—or avoid it? follow through—or make promises that disappear? create stability—or chaos? 👉 People who manipulate often appear ideal at first. This can include: Over-the-top attention or affection Lavish gestures early on Constant validation-seeking Moving the relationship forward quickly Seeing red flags after you’ve been married doesn’t mean you failed. It means he lied to you. 5. Pay Attention to How You Feel After Interactions One of the most telling indicators is how you feel. After spending time with him, do you feel: Calm and secure? Or anxious, confused, and drained? If you’re constantly trying to: Explain basic needs Avoid conflict Recover from emotional blowups that’s important data. 6. Know It’s NOT Your Fault Many women feel terrible about needing to consider divorce. You might think: “Why didn’t I see this sooner?” “Did I ignore the signs?” Others think: “If I just explain it better… try harder… love more… it will change.” But if your husband’s behavior includes deception or emotional abuse, it’s not your fault. To see if you’re experiencing any of the 19 emotional abuse tactics, take my free emotional abuse test. 7. Use Tools to See His Character Clearly Instead of relying on hope, fear, or pressure from others, focus on gaining clarity. At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, women learn how to: Evaluate their husband’s true character Use protective strategies day by day Make decisions without needing his agreement or honesty This removes the pressure to “figure it all out” instantly. You can feel: Relief and grief at the same time Hope and clarity at the same time Strength and fear at the same time Answering The Question: Should I Get A Divorce? If you’re wrestling with the question, “Should I get a divorce?” you don’t have to figure it out alone. You deserve support without judgment or pressure. And a path forward that doesn’t depend on him changing 👉 Join a our daily support group for women in confusing marriages Transcript: Should I Get A Divorce? Anne: I have Caroline on the podcast today. She is a Betrayal Trauma Recovery client who recently made the decision to divorce. So we’ll talk to her about her experience. Welcome Caroline. What is your response when people ask you why you divorced? Caroline: Although I knew about my husband’s addiction from the beginning, I didn’t know what that entailed. Anne: Is it a triggery experience to talk about it with people wondering why you got divorced? Caroline: It’s definitely like a panic zone, because you don’t know how people react. Some people are educated on addiction, and others believe it’s normal. So the reactions vary. It’s only been in the past few months that I feel like I can actually say the word pornography when talking about my divorce. Anne: You mentioned you knew about his use while you were dating. Or before you married. Did you see any other red flags? Caroline: As I thought about it post divorce. I was surprised at how many silent red flags in my relationship there actually were. Some of those narcissistic traits were that our dates were always extremely lavish and expensive. And it seemed he just had untapped funds from the get go, date one. He would hardly give me any time alone. And always stayed by me, knowing what I was up to, surprise visits. He would fake sick at work just to come see me. It seemed like he almost forced himself into my life. And he flattered me at the time, I thought, wow, this guy likes me. He’s so cute, he’s got all this money. He’s got a good job. But now I see it as him controlling and insecure, and kind of practicing those narcissistic traits. The Illusion Of A Perfect Partner: Love Bombing Caroline: Yeah, he was a strong member of his church until a few months before we met. And he said a lot about his inactivity in the church. He made a lot of excuses. Like how they treated him unfairly. He undermined his parents while still having them in the palm of his hand. He constantly seeks praise and validation, down to like the littlest things. If he wiped off the counter, he would say, hey look, look what I did, I wiped off the counter. Just fed off of what other people thought of him constantly. Anne: I was just thinking about my ex. He contacted some people in my life. Because he was trying to find information about filing taxes before we divorced while we separated. He said things like I love Anne so much. I need to make sure I do this for her. And how amazing he was for filing the taxes. Like he felt like he needed tons of praise for just like everyday normal things. That literally he had to do, like if he hadn’t done it, he would have been breaking the law. And it’s like, you’re not going to get a ton of praise for filing your taxes. Every person has to do that. Like, I don’t know why you’re the hero for filing taxes. Women need education about narcissistic behaviors that is super important, especially if they are making the decision to divorce. So that they can know, that was not a man being completely and totally in love with me. That is love bombing. That’s about them, not about me. This is an unsafe situation. I need to take a step back. Which is, what woman wouldn’t want to be love bombed. The Mourning Divorce Process Anne: We see that in romantic comedies. Our culture tells us that when you meet the right person, amazing things will happen. That amazing situation, meant for a romantic comedy, is like narcissistic love bombing. Caroline: Yeah, exactly, I really saw him and me creating a family. And becoming a mother and him becoming a father. He talked about all sorts of different things when it came to family and being a major influence and support. To his own mom, who was a widow. Many times where I saw an authentic reaction to what he was doing, sadness for what he had done. And then the next day it would be like that realization never happened. So I definitely believe he knew what was happening and what was going on. A lot of the mourning is because you do see their potential. Somebody told me during my decision to divorce, as I had many confusing and conflicting thoughts. Because you feel like such a relief, but then you miss them and you mourn the loss of that potential in that person. You can see it so clearly after spending time with that person, and it’s so hard because you want to take them by the shoulders and shake them. And tell them, hey. I believe in you, see you, hear you and love you. You’ve got all this untapped potential right there. One thing that helped incredibly with boundaries. Where before I thought of marriage as a free for all when it comes to each other’s feelings. Because well, you married him. But boundaries are good even inside a marriage to keep yourself safe. Anne: Especially when you married someone who makes sad choices and you’re making the decision to divorce. Caroline: Yes. Regrets & Lessons: Should I Get Divorced? Caroline: I wish I had known that addiction fuels other behaviors. I wish I had known more of the emotional and physical consequences of that addiction. I wish I had known to prioritize my needs and desires. And to have this lesser sense of urgency when it comes to getting married. That it would be okay to just take our time. I think another big thing for me was that I didn’t need to settle just because he was showing interest in me. Instead, I wish I had realized that I can have everything I want in a man and deserve the full package. Anne: At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, when we say the full package, what we mean is someone who is not abusive. Caroline: Yeah, isn’t that ironic? Anne: We’re not looking for a professional soccer player or an ex Navy SEAL, and a million dollar business. No, no, no, that’s not what we’re talking about. We are talking about a man with whom we can partner, who is not abusive. Caroline: Yeah, for sure. Just somebody that’s on the same track that I am, you know, I want a lot out of my life. Anne: So let’s talk about your age for a minute. We’ve had women on the podcast and BTR.ORG clients from all ages and situations. Caroline, how old are you? Caroline: I just turned 22. Anne: And how long were you married? Caroline: Three years almost to the day. I was 18 when I married. Anne: And no children now? Caroline: No kids. Support To Decide About Divorce Caroline: One of the biggest things that has helped me heal through my decision to divorce is affirmations. They are posted all over my apartment, just small things that remind me of who I am and where I want to be. Divorce does not define me, or that it wasn’t a failure either. I’ve also found it super helpful in the last little bit to share my story. There are so many people my age who have been married for one to three years that are finding themselves in the same place in the neighborhood I grew up in. They’re between two years younger than me and two years older than me. There were 11 of us who are married, and six of us are now divorced. It’s been super helpful for me to reach out to them and ask how long it takes to heal from my husband’s emotional abuse and share our thoughts, feelings, and progress. And that’s been super helpful. Caroline: So six of them are now divorced. Anne: One thing I find concerning right now is that young people think that if they talk about it, they can somehow avoid it. That has not been my experience. In fact, many of the thousands and thousands of wives I’ve talked to, had many conversations with their boyfriends and fiancés about it. They users lie, conversation about it or asking the right questions will not lead us to the truth, usually. The only thing that will lead us to the truth is observing their behaviors and getting in touch with what do I need? When do I feel safe? Who am I? Being in our own recovery space, so that we can observe those unhealthy behaviors in someone else. Caroline: Yes Finding Out The Truth: Should I Get Divorced? Anne: For example, many people think, well, if I am open and kind, and I don’t shame the person, then it will give them a better opportunity to tell the truth. I think that is the wrong way to go, because we’re still trying to “help” that person or manage that person. They literally need to be honest. Whether their wife or girlfriend is angry, happy, or sad, their honesty cannot, should not depend on the way their wife reacts. Caroline: Absolutely. Anne: And right now, when people talk about addiction, it is floating around that women have the responsibility to not be too angry. Or too shaming, or too this or that, and if they do that, great! Then he will open up, and that puts the blame of his lying on her where it does not belong. It is fully his responsibility to tell the truth, regardless of how she reacts. Caroline: Yes, for sure. Anne: Betrayal Trauma Recovery does not advocate for divorce. I did not want to make a decision to divorce. I felt strongly that I needed to set boundaries to be safe. So I set a very firm no contact boundary, and also didn’t file for divorce. I’m sure you’ve heard other people say, if you set these boundaries, you’re going to end up divorced. Like it’s your fault, rather than setting boundaries for safety. And if they still abuse you, it’s still their fault that the divorce is happening. What do you say to people who might ask you. You’re divorced now, and you went to Betrayal Trauma Recovery. I guess, Betrayal Trauma Recovery believes in divorce. What would you say to them? how to tell if i should get a divorce Caroline: Well, my first reaction is laughing, because before I went to Betrayal Trauma Recovery, which is the best betrayal trauma support group. I definitely wanted to make things work. But I was exhausted and had put off scheduling for a long time, because I was nervous and wasn’t sure what was going to happen. The best thing that happened was that my Betrayal Trauma Recovery Coach helped me identify my core values. So that all my decisions should be made based on those core values that I established. It was very explicit that Betrayal Trauma Recovery is not an advocate for divorce, but that we should also ensure that we’re in a safe situation. And so the decision to divorce came from me. In fact, when I told my Betrayal Trauma Recovery coach, she was surprised I made the decision to divorce. Anne: And did you feel supported by your coach? When You Need Help With This Question: Should I Get Divorced? Caroline: Yes, I definitely felt support from her. The support was to help identify myself, work through and make progress. It was, you’re a strong woman. You can do anything that you put your mind to. And you know, that said it all. After talking with my coach for the first and second time, we talked about boundaries, and I came up with some boundaries that I was going to set with my ex husband. And once the boundaries were set in place, things took a different turn. It made him upset, much more abusive, a different side to my ex-husband that I never had seen. And so to me, setting a simple boundary. We saw his true colors. Anne: Was it shocking to you? Caroline: Oh yeah, I had never seen him react that way, just completely livid. He’d never really yelled at me like that, but was throwing things. How Do I Know If I Should Get a Divorce: He Blew Up Caroline: Just completely different than I had ever seen him before. And this wasn’t a boundary of no physical contact. We had been seeing a therapist who specializes in addiction. And the therapist told me that my ex-husband would have to make the appointments from here on out. Because at that time, for months and months, I was the one making appointments and taking him. To the appointments, the therapist said nothing will change until he wants to do this. So, the boundary was set: You need to make your own appointments to see this therapist. That’s when he blew up. Anne: When I realized my husband was as abusive as he was, and I hadn’t seen it as abuse, I was shocked. When I found out how abusive he was. And when I was managing him and when I was not setting boundaries, I don’t think I ever would have seen abusiveness. It sounds like that was a moment for you where you’re like, whoa, he’s abusive. Caroline: This is a very simple thing. That’s all I’m asking you. And it was just chaos. Trying to ask him to do very simple things Anne: Without being totally berated, yeah. Caroline: That reminds…
A child’s accidental exposure to online inappropriate material. It traumatizes children who view it. They need immediate trauma-focused care to process and heal. Trauma from exposure can affect children in many ways. Often, traumatized children experience:
Sleep disturbances including nightmares and insomnia
Mood swings and behavioral issues
Somberness, sadness
Preoccupation with sexuality
Fear and anxiety about safety
You Can Set Boundaries To Protect Young Kids From Online Threats
Courageous women who face the devastation of betrayal trauma, emotional abuse, and betrayal can find help, healing, and support as they set and maintain boundaries that keep their children safe from exploitative media.
An example of a boundary that would protect women and children from the chaotic harm and abuse of exploitative media use. Is asking the user to relocate to a different living space. So that his material cannot harm anyone in the family.
You Can Be Proactive In Teaching Children About Online Harms
Often, children have a trauma response. All children exposed to it are abuse victims. They should be treated with compassion, respect, and the intentional care that any trauma victim would receive for abuse. In addition to trauma-focused care, women may find resources helpful in helping their children understand the truths about it. The book Good Pictures, Bad Pictures may help teach children about it.
Transcript: How To Protect Children From Online Abuse
Anne: I have a good friend on today’s episode. Her name is Kristen Jenson, and she’s the founder of Defend Young Minds, an organization that helps protect young kids from online threats by teaching them strategies and skills to use as they go about their lives.
Welcome, Kristen.
Kristen: Thanks, Anne. It’s great to be here with you.
Anne: My kids love your books. We have them all around our house. My youngest, loves non-fiction. and so she reads them frequently. So thank you so much. Can you just start off talking about your books?
I love how you approach that. It helps it not to be so heavy, and yet you’re talking about serious topics. Women get trapped in this place where her husband looks great on the outside, but there’s a lot of trauma going on. And then I love how in the back, you’ve got lots of charts that help explain a lot of the issues.
Anne: It’s frequently a bestseller in the category of teen and young adult nonfiction on abuse, which is interesting to me because I did not expect my book to be for kids. Many people have said, my children love this book. That surprised me.
The Importance Of Talking About Exploitative Media
Anne: I think the thing that probably surprises both of us is how ready and capable children are to learn about these difficult topics.
Kristen: Kids love these books because they respond to the truth. When a book clearly shines light, I think kids just gobble it up. It’s a relief to them when you’re willing to open up and talk about it or about the effects of expolitative media in a relationship, marriage, and family. Kids are more resilient than we give them credit for, and it’s great that they have these books to help them.
Anne: Can you talk about why some parents might think that not talking about it may be better for their kids?
Kristen: Yeah, I totally get that it may be intuitive, because we want to protect our children from online danger and keep them innocent. Some parents think, what if I tell my kid about it, and then they get curious and look for it. Well, we owe it to our children to teach them how to thrive in this day and age. The goal is not innocence, the goal is teaching a child to make wise decisions.
We teach them about all the other dangers and have drills, but somehow we think that this is different. It’s not, it’s a danger, just like every other danger. You need a proactive, intentional approach where you are working to create digital defense skills. When kids know what it is, why it’s harmful, and what to do when they see it, then and only then do they have a real choice to reject it. And they have the beginning of a defense, which of course in the end, it’s up to them.
Real-Life Stories Of Preparedness
Kristen: And I have so many stories of kids. One boy, like seven years old, was just going to ride bikes in the cul de sac. But they went inside and his teenage brothers said, hey, come over. We want to show you something and showed these little boys exploitative media. His mother had talked to him about it. He knew what to do and went home. He told her about it.
She was able to debrief him and help him process and neutralize those memories. And she told me, our plan actually worked beautifully. She could have never predicted that that situation would happen. But she was so glad her son was prepared, and he knew what to do. He knew to tell her, she was a safe person to talk to about this.
https://youtu.be/fvbr2Fx4fl4
Anne: She helped protect children from online abuse. Yeah, because they have so many questions, they’ll hear things at school. One of my sons, when he was in fifth grade, we did the maturation clinic, and I went with him. But I had already talked to him about everything. We’d already gone over everything at home. And he told me that at lunch, some kids talked about the maturation clinic, and they were giving the wrong information.
And speaking of innocence. I just had two researchers on the podcast. They’re PhD level researchers, and they interviewed a bunch of women who have been through betrayal trauma. And one of the things they found was that women felt like their “innocence” had harmed them. They wish they had abuse education. They wish they had had abuse education.
Protect Children From Online Abuse: Objectification & It’s Harm
Anne: They wish they had more education about healthy intimacy. In general they were religious. It was like, don’t have it until you’re married. Then once you’re married, your husband will show you what to do. You don’t need education about it. Many of them had experienced abuse from their husbands, their husbands were always on their phone looking at it, and they didn’t even know it was abuse. All of them had experienced coercion, they didn’t know that was coercion.
So the knowledge of abuse is that these are the elements of healthy relationships. What I love about your materials is that they teach these healthy concepts without saying the word, to prepare children for when that conversation will happen in the future. They help protect children from online abuse, and its effects.
Kristen: In the book for kids ages seven and older, talks about objectification, how it objectifies people’s bodies. And instead of seeing them as a whole person, who deserves love and respect, they’re just seen as a body or some sort of compilation of body parts. When you objectify a person, it’s easier to hurt them. And that’s another harm of online exploitation, because it shows people being mean and acting like that’s fun.
And so is hurting people a good way to treat somebody? No, so that just starts to teach that basics of healthy relationships are respectful and kind, and involves the whole person and trust. Whereas it teaches the exact opposite, it involves violence, disrespect, degradation, and objectification.
Online Exploitation Harms Mental Health
Kristen: And you can’t tell me that watching it for years and years. And then going into a marriage will not affect your template, your expectations and your behavior. There are quite a few studies that show that is true. People who look at it have a harder time having a healthy relationship. They also give their partner betrayal trauma from infidelity.
So turns out there are quite a few studies that show the mental health harms of it. And how it is associated with a wide range of harming mental health, not only in children and adolescents, but also in adults. I would say there are more studies with adults, obviously, it is associated with greater loneliness.
This content predicts depression and anxiety. There was a study that showed that both general and aggressive use alone were associated with less relationship satisfaction and relationship stability. Even when accounting for a range of potentially confounding variables.
One in Germany was with over 1500 German speaking users, ages 18 to 76. It showed that users with problematic content use scored significantly higher in many problems, obsessive compulsive behavior, depression, anxiety, hostility, phobic anxiety, paranoid ideation. Also, they scored significantly worse in every measure of psychological functioning considered, including again, OCD, interpersonal sensitivity, depression, anxiety, hostility, phobic anxiety, paranoid ideation, and psychoticism.
They also found that these results were elevated to a clinically relevant degree compared with the general population. The intensity of these problems was categorized as severe psychological distress. I could go on and on, but basically using it creates poor mental health outcomes. Kids should know that it does harm their mental health. There are so many studies that show this is true. There is a need protect children from online abuse to prevent long term damage.
Dopamine & Gender Differences In Online Explotative Exposure
Kristen: The other problem with kids using it: there’s so many problems, but one of them is the dopamine. It sets your dopamine level so high that normal things that kids used to really enjoy, like exploring the backyard and looking for bugs you know, are just boring.
So it’s messing with the dopamine in the brain. What would those kids learn and develop? So there’s lost opportunity for normal development. It appears to delay normal social development and cognitive development. These are all things that parents need to be concerned about when it comes to handing a device to a child. Parents need to know how protect children from online abuse.
Anne: As you’ve been working with parents over the years and how can we protect children online, have you seen any gender differences between the information boys need and girls need?
Kristen: Yes, I have. Girls often get into it differently than boys, but they often end up in the same place. You know, girls are interested in relationships. So they like stories, and they will be pulled in through erotic literature, through fan fiction, even through anime and cartoons. Some women found out about what their husband was looking at online and wondered, “Is my husband gay?”
They’ll be pulled in that way, but often end up with the videos. So I’ve been writing a book for girls to teach them the harms of it, not only themselves as they watch it. But it harms them if they get into a relationship with somebody who is also watching it. There’s quite a bit of research now that shows that if both partners watch it together, they have like threefold risk for infidelity, which is harmful to a relationship.
We Need To Protect Kids From Online Threats
Anne: Well, and we view it as infidelity at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, so they’re already…
Kristen: Yes,
Anne:…being unfaithful. If they are, they’re both unfaithful.
Kristen: Absolutely. We want to help girls understand that there are other ways to get into it It’s not just the bad pictures you see. It’s also the bad pictures that can be created in your mind through books and stories. And even explicit cartoons are dangerous and addicting. This a way to protect children from online danger.
Anne: Well, Kristen, your work is incredible. My kids love it. I’m so grateful it organizes things in a way that is easy to approach the topic. So I’m like, win, win, win. Go to defendyoungminds.com to learn more about her resources. Thank you so much, Kristen, for spending time talking with me today.
Kristen: Thank you, Anne it’s been a pleasure.
How To Deal With An Addict Husband – Evangeline’s Story
Mar 18, 2025
Show notes
If you’re struggling to deal with an addict husband, we get it. We’re here for you. Our Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions are for women who have done everything they can to fix their marriage, but their addict husband is still causing trouble. To see if your husband’s addiction causes him to be emotionally abusive, take our free emotional abuse quiz. And listen (above) to Evangeline’s story to see if you relate, or read the transcript below. You’re not alone. Transcript: How To Deal With An Addict Husband Anne: A member of our Betrayal Trauma Recovery Community is on today’s episode. We’re calling her Evangeline. Welcome, Evangeline. Evangeline: Thank you for talking with me, Anne. I’m so grateful for the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Community. Anne: Let’s start at the beginning. Can you talk about how you felt about your husband at first? Evangeline: Ours was like a real romance. I thought I married the man of my dreams, that I earned and deserved this as a good Christian girl and woman. I was in love, head over heels in love. He checked all the boxes. He had faith, honored and respected me, and did many thoughtful gestures. Anne: Back then, did you notice anything a bit off, and how did you define that? Evangeline: There were moments. I suspected he may be an addict early on and thought he acted out in his “addiction” in isolated moments. Like, just a few times a year. He’d apologize and say it wouldn’t happen again. I never told anyone because it was infrequent. I just thought he’s growing up, he’s figuring it out. As long as it doesn’t get any worse, I’m going to be okay. We’re going to be okay. How To Deal With An Addict Husband When He Lies Evangeline: He introduced pornography into our marriage. I said, no, I didn’t like that. I became uncomfortable. He’s telling me he’s watching pornography to learn how to be a better husband. How to maybe be a better lover or to be more educated. Anne: A flat out lie. He’s constantly on his phone, watching it. Evangeline: Totally. It didn’t help him be a “better” anything. I found infidelity 15 to 20 years into my marriage. The reality was, I can’t tell you how many incidences. I lived in fear. There is no way to deal with this when your husband says he’s an addict. The Reality of My Husband’s Addiction Evangeline: And really why would I know how to deal with an addicted husband? My parents raised me sheltered and uninformed. And he seemed to love and adore me. I felt so blessed at the time. This was a godsend, an answer to prayer. Anne: It makes total sense. That is exactly what you would think, especially under the circumstances. You think he’s a man of God, because that’s what he has told you. Evangeline: The first 10 years of our marriage were a blur. Our two youngest out of three kids had severe medical issues. Those years were just survival. I took women’s Bible study and women’s leadership. The Sacrifices You Make When Your Husband is An Addict I did bookkeeping for multiple churches and nonprofits. He also played a part in my business. He did taxes for some of the customers I had. My business was thriving. About 13 or so years into our marriage, we decided to move across the country. He wanted us to go down to one income, one job. So I sold my business to another accountant in our city. And I became a full time stay at home mom for the next 16 years. I didn’t know what would happen when I gave up my financial security and ability to take care of myself. I needed safety, because my husband was an addict, and that was an unsafe situation. The Christian evangelical community promoted and encouraged us to be stay-at-home moms. I didn’t realize that as a woman, I was putting myself at risk for the situation I’m now currently in. He Wanted Power & Control Evangeline: I can see it now that he wanted more power and control. If he’s an addict, you can start seeing the patterns. Like, when I started going back to school, he was not supportive. He would call me in the middle of my day, interrupt me when he’d never done that before. This behavior felt like more that just being an “addict husband.” I would keep my study time to only the hours my kids were at school. I could only study when I had no other duties. He Didn’t Want Me To Improve Myself Evangeline: It was obvious he didn’t want me to improve myself, or show interest in any of my hobbies. And that was shocking. His addiction meant he only wanted me the version of myself he married at 22. He didn’t allow me to grow and change. I wasn’t allowed to be an educated and degreed adult. I had to be the high school graduate. He simply wanted my attention only on him. Anne: One part of The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop teaches that we all have special talents and interests. But sometimes, when a husband struggles with addiction, he makes us think our life should only be about him. This workshop helps us realize that we were created to live our own life. My Addict Husband Got In the Way Of My Career Evangeline: Yes, only certain activities met his approval, such as my kid’s medical issues. I could do ministry and women’s ministry through my churches. And I’m learning that my husband is an “addict”. But the more my information and knowledge about abuse increased, the more his behavior became destructive and worse. Realizing What My Husband Being An Addict Meant To Me Evangeline: I think back now, and I’m like, my life was out of control. My personal life was in mayhem. In fact, the only place stable was work. My spouse was an addict to an extreme level. As an “addict”, he was also acting out with other women. Sometimes I think we just go through a series of betrayals that are so deep and so intense. It’s almost like when he does it again, you’re in such a state of shock. The reverberations from each of these betrayals almost paralyze you. It’s like you couldn’t even react anymore. My hypervigilance became extreme. I was waiting for the next one to happen. And at some point, I’m became numb. I developed severe agoraphobia. When An Addict Gets Caught At Work Evangeline: We moved four times in 10 years. I lived in four States in 10 years. These were all moves related to him changing jobs. There were multiple incidents with his employers or with a fellow employee. I would never get the whole story or the whole truth. But I knew enough to know that he was misbehaving and acting inappropriately, unprofessionally with subordinates. When he started the last job he had when I was with him, he had already started a relationship with a woman at work before the rest of the family moved. But I didn’t know that. All those years, I was fighting for my marriage. Even though it was a complete disaster, full betrayal, full addiction. It was so exhausting constantly having to manage an addicted husband. I didn’t realize what his addiction was doing to me. I just thought, “He needs help to overcome his addiction. And I’d still be there for him once he figured it out.” That’s truly what I thought. I said to him, “I’ll give you the freedom to figure out your problems, get help, and do what you got to do.” Anne: You’re still in this, like, willing to help your husband with his “addiction”? Manipulation & Prolonged Abuse Because many times a husband will say, “I’m an addict” to manipulate us to “help” him. But it’s just to continue to exploit us. Evangeline: Yes! He used it to continue to exploit me for sure! I said, “You go get help”. Your addiction is ruining your career. I do not feel safe, my husband is addicted he needs to get into a 12 Step Program. Also, you need therapy. So in addiction therapy, the therapist had us create one shared password for all our emails and accounts. We set up accountability and transparency. So I don’t know how he did it, but he still watched explicit material, and had conversations with other women. He would just “slip up” here and there until life became just one constant slip up. I didn’t realize what was actually happening. The Myth Of Keeping Your Addict Husband Satisfied Evangeline: I’d never spoken to anyone about my marriage. I remember telling one woman at church that I had become fairly good friends about with what I’d found on his phone. He had inappropriate texts with a woman at work. I truly believed the teaching that if you keep your husband busy and satisfied, filling his mind with thoughts of you, it would help him deal with his addiction. She told me that if I satisfy him, he wouldn’t need to seek out explicit material or other women. When I decide to do something, I’ll go all in. And so I followed that advice, and it didn’t work. It failed. He cheated, betrayed, and continued in his addiction. Isolation, Fear & Discovering What His “Addiction” Really Meant Evangeline: I took a leave of absence. I began to search for any resource I could find, betrayal trauma, addiction and narcissistic personality disorder. It wasn’t until I started listening to The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast. And I heard other women share their stories of what it was like to be married to an addict. I suddenly heard something I identified with. And of course, at the beginning, I didn’t understand that you can’t take this information to an addict husband. But I made that mistake of taking him the information I was learning. Misunderstanding Addiction Evangeline: And I truly thought if I just approached him the right way. If I had the magic way to say it, he will understand and see the light. I know he’s intelligent, smart and capable. I must be failing. I’m not saying it right. Let me help my addict husband by trying it all in different ways. He’s bound to get it eventually. Then he began turning what I knew against me. He started saying that I was the abuser and that I was the one causing problems. The scariest part of my story with him happened when we moved to this state for his job. This was the first time he worked at a hospital for behavioral health. He was the CFO at the hospital. Even though he has no mental health education of any kind. Maybe Psychology 101 that everyone has to take in college. He’s an executive for the facility. But he’s coming home and telling me, you wouldn’t believe the wonders that we see in patients receiving shock treatment. It’s actually still a valid treatment practiced today, and you wouldn’t believe how these people are emotionally stable due to shock treatment. And he’s like, you should look into it. Anne: For you? Evangeline: Yes, he scared me so bad. At that point, I struggled with severe agoraphobia. I was terrified, knew no one in a strange city. I had no friends, no family, and no one to call and talk to. Feeling Complete Isolation While Dealing With My Addict Husband Evangeline: I was completely isolated and terrified. If I can’t trust people I live with, who are supposed to be for me. And the people who are supposed to love me and have my back? How could I possibly trust a stranger? I knew I could trust my coworkers in my child advocacy work, but beyond that, I had no one personally. And I was terrified. I was terrified he would commit me against my will and that I would have a shock treatment done to me against my will. And you lose memory, and looking back now that I know that’s one of the effects of that treatment. I understand why he wanted it so bad. We had reached a point in our marriage where I had learned so many truths. There was no return from that knowledge. Anne: Once you see it, you can’t unsee it. Evangeline: You can’t unsee it. And I didn’t realize then how desperate he was for me to not know the truth of him. I know it now. Anne: So you become a child advocate, recognize what abuse is, but still don’t recognize that he’s abusive. Then you recognize that he’s abusive, and you think, oh, if I can just explain it well enough. By the way, this is totally normal. You’re completely normal. I went through the same thing, trying to help my “addicted husband.” I think every abuse victim does. Because they’ve manipulated us to think they’ve like given us that impression. They’ve gaslit us to think that. So then, you go through that phase, which we’ve all been through, of okay. If I can explain it to him, or if I can get him to the right therapist or something, then he’ll get help. Therapist Disappointment Evangeline: He went to a therapist, and I went to one appointment not to do a couples therapy. But to say, hey, I want to hear from the therapist that you are telling the therapist everything. Anne: What type of therapist? Is it an addiction specialist? Evangeline: They do therapy for addiction. Just a traditional therapist with addiction training. I told both therapists, “I’m not safe, I’m not safe, and I’m not sure what he’s doing next. That’s going to destroy me and the kids, our lives. I’m terrified.” Did you know that neither of those therapists had one thing to offer me? Not one thing. They didn’t follow up, and they didn’t have anything to give me. Anne: That is unfortunately most women’s experience when they work with an addiction specialist for their spouse. It’s so disappointing, invalidating, and frankly dangerous. And that’s why I started our group sessions and our individual sessions. And also why I wrote the Living Free Workshop. The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop helps women determine their adddict husband’s true character, and then teaches safety strategies. So basically, it helps women know exactly what’s going on, and then also what’s going to happen next. Because I found most therapists, therapy in general, especially couple therapy or therapy for troubled marriages. They just look at you and blink. They might say the word boundaries, but they don’t know how to actually teach boundaries, because “communication” is always the solution when it comes to therapy. And “communication” doesn’t help with an addicted husband. So I am so sorry. That’s so discouraging. So they just like stared at you and just like blinked at you. False Hope In Addiction Therapy Evangeline: That’s what they did. They had nothing to offer, no suggestions for a safety plan, and didn’t look to him and say, we need to stop now. At this point, we weren’t addressing the misconduct. We were addressing his behavior with addiction. It was out of control and dangerous. Anne: Though it felt terrible to you at the time, and they did not do the right thing, there is a silver lining there, and it’s that they didn’t say, oh, I can help both of you. And this is how we’re going to do this. And the reason why that’s a silver lining is that false hope. Sometimes we call it hopium around here that, like, oh, I will treat your husband and make him safe for you, is super dangerous. We don’t recommend any men’s programs, because we’ve seen them use that to continue to manipulate and control, and they weaponize all the therapy language. It almost makes them like super abusers, because they know how to speak. And it gets scary quickly. When they’ve become these like almost mutants of themselves through learning the therapy language. Did you experience that part, where they’re good at using the therapy language as weapons against us? Evangeline: When we were separated for a year, I felt it a little. I asked for a space where we could talk and actually work things out. Whenever we talked alone, the conversations just went in circles. We kept jumping from one thing to another without solving anything. I still cared about my marriage and wanted it to work, even though we had been apart for a year. I requested, can we find a therapist where we will have space to have conversations? My Addict Husband Was 99 Percent Done Evangeline: So we’re both held accountable for how we participate in that conversation, not couples counseling. this point, even though I still desire to keep my marriage and future, he said I’m 99 percent done. You know what that did to me? It took me a couple of appointments before I finally understood that statement. I’m 99 percent…
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