Betrayal Trauma Recovery

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This is How You Know It’s Time To Leave – Vicki’s Story Jan 16, 2024

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Every victim faces a unique moment when she has had enough, when she realizes, “It’s time to leave.” Vicki shares her powerful story of liberating herself from an abusive marriage when she reached her own moment of realization. Vicki’s story offers a beacon of hope for survivors facing similar challenges. Whether you’ve been married for days, weeks, months, or years, we want you to be safe, as you figure out if it’s time to leave your emotionally abusive marriage. To find out if you’re experiencing emotional abuse, take my free emotional abuse test. Victims Can Prepare To Safely Leave An Abusive Relationship By: Creating a safety plan with a BTR.ORG coach or local domestic violence victim advocate. Reaching out to safe people and letting them know the plan, and ways to offer support. Pack a hidden emergency bag that is easily accessible in case the need arises for a quick exit. BTR.ORG Is Here For You For those currently on the path to freedom and figuring out when it’s time to leave, Vicki’s story is a testament to resilience. It reinforces the message that leaving an abusive marriage is courageous, requiring careful planning, support systems, and commitment to one’s safety. Vicki’s journey serves as an inspiration for victims taking the first steps toward reclaiming their lives. You are not alone, and there is strength in breaking free. Consider attending a BTR.ORG Group Session today. Transcript: This Is How You Know It’s Time To Leave – Vicki’s Story Anne: We have a member of our community on today’s episode. We are going to call her Vicki. She is going to be sharing her personal experience, what she has been through and knowing when it’s time to leave. So welcome Vicki. Vicki: Hi. It’s great to be here. Anne: I don’t know if great to be here is the exact right way to put it, right? Vicki: If it’s going to help anybody, then yes. Anne: Yes, and going through what you’ve been through is terrible. But a lot of victims who come on the podcast to share their experience find it like a step on their journey. To peace, in that they can share their story with a community of women who get it and benefit from it. So we’re grateful for you taking the time to share today. So let’s start at the beginning of your story. Did you recognize your husband’s abusive behaviors at first? Vicki: No, I mean, of course, at first he was Prince Charming, you know, so there wasn’t anything to notice at first. Then shortly after we married, I noticed things that I was like, I’ve never seen that before. Where did that come from? But this went on for a while, for months and years without me being able to say, wait a minute, that’s not okay. That’s totally abusive. So I definitely did not recognize it. Anne: How did you define these? I’ll just put in quotes, “strange behaviors” or things that you were like, I don’t feel good about that. How did you define that behavior at the time? What reasons did you give? Excusing Abusive Behavior By Blaming Others Vicki: Well, I just thought he had a lot of bad things happening to him through no fault of his own. So he was discouraged, and it made him touchy. And so in my mind, I was like, well, after all this behavior is understandable. He’s demoralized because of these tough breaks he keeps experiencing. And, I just excused it. And later, I found out that all the things I called tough breaks were literally just consequences of his choices and behaviors. Anne: But you didn’t know it at the time? Vicki: Oh no, no, he kept everything so covert and hidden from me. Anne: Okay. Vicki: Yeah Anne: Let me guess, one of them is getting fired from a job? Vicki: Oh yes, that was definitely one of them, on more than one occasion. He went through ten jobs. And every single time it was because there was a “departmental restructuring.” Or his boss was a horrible jerk, and it was time to leave, or something like that. It was definitely not due to behaviors he was doing on the job, on company time with the company computer. It was definitely not that. Anne: I mentioned in another interview recently. The situation usually begins for them, in their head, on with what other people do in response. It doesn’t start with them. So they do something wrong. You know, they use exploitative manterial on their work computer, and then their boss starts treating them “badly,” maybe because they’re like, you’re a bad person. He Was Fired From His Job Repeatedly & Abusing Me Anne: When I say “badly,” I’m putting that in quotes, like you’re not a good employee. It’s time to leave. And that’s where they start the story. The story starts with my boss started looking at me weird, treating me bad. And not giving me projects, and then it was time to leave and fired me. Vicki: Right. And I have no idea why. Anne: Yeah, it usually starts after what they’ve done and the beginning of how someone else is responding to their behavior. But what about his behavior toward you? Was it still like that he’s stressed out? Can you talk about how you felt about his behavior toward you? Vicki: He was just mean and super impatient, and would just rage constantly. And I recognized it was harsh, overreacting, or having a tantrum. But I didn’t say that to him. Because if I did, he would punch me, and that happened. And yet I didn’t recognize that carefully avoiding punches. By keeping my words at a minimum and not defying him, I didn’t recognize that was abuse. So if you said to me, does he physically abuse you? I’d be like, no, no, because I knew how to keep him from doing that. So when I tried to call him out on inappropriate behavior, he would yell, shut up. And sometimes I didn’t shut up, no, I’m not going to shut up. That’s not okay. And of course, since I didn’t shut up, then I would get the warning that what was going to come next. And so I would shut up. Anne: Did you recognize that as abuse? It’s so hard to explain betrayal trauma. Vicki: No, I just thought he had a bad temper. I did not ever identify that as abuse. Family & Community Perceptions: Moving Because It Was Time To Leave Anne: Physical abuse never happens without emotional and psychological abuse, right? So you’re being abused. Vicki: That was much more severe than anything physical, right. Anne: So you’re emotionally and psychologically abused for sure. Which you don’t realize. You’re also physically abused. Which you don’t realize. That is why its so important to know these truths about emotional abuse. Especially because you are so abused, you’re doing exactly what he wants. So he’s resorting to the physical abuse less because he’s threatened you with it, right? Vicki: Right. Anne: So the threat is keeping you in line enough, I guess. But nobody else in your family knew about it, or they didn’t recognize it as physical abuse either? Vicki: My extended family, no. My children, yes, they all knew. Anne: Okay. Vicki: Yeah, like I said, all my neighbors, church members, and family members looked at us as a cute, ideal family. You know, they’re so great. They’re such a nice couple. That’s all they saw. And we would move so often that I never had a support group in the neighborhood. And all they would see was the surface stuff. But as soon as anybody started getting onto him, we would move, it was time to leave. He would uproot us immediately. Anne: My ex did that too. When we were together, we moved six times in five years. I think he knew people were onto him, maybe I didn’t know that, but I think he did. I think that a certain type of abuser wants to move frequently. Because they want to make sure they can keep that mask on, right? So he was one of them. Discovering His online Addiction Anne: In terms of church, was he like, “upstanding?” Vicki: Yes Anne: Did the church view him as an upstanding member? Like, did he get leadership roles? Vicki: He was in a leadership calling. He wore his suit and tie like a badge. That was his disguise. He had most of the people completely fooled. Looking back now, I can see sometimes how people reacted to him, and I’m pretty sure there were some people who didn’t fall for it, but I did. Until the end, the fog started lifting. Anne: Were you aware of exploitative material use? Vicki: Not until after I left, it escalated to a point where my adult children did an intervention. And after that, my daughter took me to a therapist she had seen. He said, you know, your husband is a pornography addict, right? And I was like, no, that’s no way. He’s so opposed to that. He thinks that’s just a terrible thing. And he’s like, no, no, he is really. So we had two computers, and my son, who is a programmer, ran programs and found deleted files. And there was evidence on both computers. And I was like, are you kidding me? I realized how many lies by doing all the back research. I realized how many lies I had been told the whole time. Anne: How long was your marriage? Vicki: It was 30 years almost. Anne: And when did you get married? How old were you? Vicki: I was 19. Yes. He groomed from day one. He used a tricky tactic to make me think he was Prince Charming. Managing Abuse & Fantasies, Not Knowing It Was Time To Leave Anne: So as he’s using this content without you knowing. I mean, you know that you have to walk on eggshells to avoid abuse. Not knowing that you’re being abused the entire time. Can you tell us more about the types of things you did to “manage” his abuse? Vicki: It’s really sad, and I did not even realize this. It’s so funny, because I literally would fantasize about him being dead. And how easy it would be to raise eight kids all by myself with him being dead. And that didn’t even clue me in to something amiss. I don’t know. I would be like, why do I think that? That’s so dumb of me. I justified it by thinking, but he’s so tortured. And it’s okay for me to not want him to continue to go through this, you know, existence, with such torture for him. And yet he wasn’t being tortured at all. I was. I didn’t know if it was time to leave. https://youtube.com/shorts/8ZzdLVRNeg4 Anne: You were, he said he was tortured from what? Like he was abused as a kid, or his dad didn’t love him, or what? Vicki: Yeah, because he lost jobs. Every person in his sphere didn’t treat hin like he was stellar all the time. Anne: He wasn’t getting all the stuff for free he thought he was entitled to, right? Vicki: Yeah, what I did that was so sad. I had my kids trained, Hey guys, dad’s going to be home, you know, everybody just has to not fight. We can’t have this, you know? And like, I had them all like trained little walking on eggshell kids. Because they knew they would get hurt if there was any problem. Realizing The Extent Of The Abuse Vicki: I spent my entire marriage to make him have his life exactly how he wanted. I mean, I’d have the dinner on the table. Whatever he said he wanted to do, we would facilitate that ASAP. Nobody else was allowed to have a want or need. If anyone expressed a want or need, they got, oh, you’re so selfish. You’re so needy, and you’re such a drama queen. You’re just on and on. Anne: Do you realize how capable you are and how amazing you are that you were actually able to do that? I hear women say this, like, so I had dinner on the table, and so I had this and this done. And I’m like, oh wow, you guys are amazing. Like I was the world’s most incapable victim, apparently because I could not pull it off. You know, I am like, so in awe of how talented, dedicated, and just hardworking women are. And then saddened to see, and you too, right? All the lost time, your strengths, your talents, and your effort were exploited for an abuser. And so that’s what the painful part is. It’s not that like, you’re ashamed that you worked hard. Or that you’re ashamed that there is a little bit of this shame, I think, that women carry. Once they realize that these good things about them were exploited for the use of an abuser, rather than for your own life, for yourself. And that lost time is like difficult to grieve. That’s why it’s so important to learn to set boundaries with your husband. Vicki: Yeah. And that’s the sad thing. I’ve been safe for years, several years, and I’m still going through so much grief. Little things will trigger. And just be like, oh, I just hate that I was so gullible, and didn’t know when to leave. Feeling The Need For Permission To Leave Vicki: Or I hate that now my kids are struggling as adults because of their trauma from me. You know, instead of being like, no, you’re not going to treat my kids like that. You’re out of here. I didn’t do that. It was like, okay, now you guys have to manage your behavior and not be a kid. It was on them. Anne: Yeah. It is so painful. I’m so sorry. I want to like reframe it and be like, you were so strong and so brave. You were doing everything you knew how to do. You didn’t know anything else. If someone, an angel. would have come down from the heavens. And said Vicki, “This is abuse, stop doing this.” You would have done it. Vicki: Yeah, I would have. Anne: Yeah, you didn’t know. Vicki: When someone finally did say that to me, I left. Like, I never returned to the house once after that. I was done. It was time to leave. So, I just had to get permission from somebody I believed had authority, who happened to be a therapist. This was part of the intervention. This is what I realized. I was like, you’re mentally ill and scary. I can’t live with you anymore. You’ll need to go into some kind of residential treatment program. I thought there was such a thing as that. I don’t know, because you can’t come home with me in your current state of mind. And so he drags us down to this counseling office, and just without an appointment starts yelling at all the staff and saying, “She won’t let me go home until I see a therapist.” Taking Action for Safety & Deciding If It’s Time To Leave Vicki: And there was thankfully a lady there willing to talk to him. And she got him in another room filling out intake paperwork. And then she told me to run for my life, it is time to leave. She said, he’s not okay, go. And that’s the last time I was with him. So I just had to have one person tell me that it was okay to go. Anne: Wow, there’s so much there, that type of action. Not necessarily that specific thing you did, but taking action to get to safety. So we can get enough space to see our husband’s true character. It’s so important. This is why I developed the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop. So if you’re listening to this and thinking, how do I know if my husband is that scary? Vicki, when did you realize all your hard work and all the things he had manipulated you to do weren’t working out? Like, so an abuser would be like, well, if you would only do this, this and this, everything would be good. And because they’re liars, they always move the goalposts. So if he’s like, you’ve got to have dinner ready by five. Then you do all the things, and then he’s still acting terrible. And then he says, well, and you have to lose weight and work out. And, you know, I don’t know all the things he says. There’s never a time where he’s like, “Oh, good. Yeah, you did do that. Okay, now I am happy. Now we’re great.” That never happens with an abuser. Vicki: No. Gradual Realization About A Bad Relationship Anne: In essence, we’re believing these promises, like if you do this and do this, things will be good. And they never are. When did it come to the point where you realize, wait a minute, there’s nothing I can do that will manage him or make him happy? Was that the same point you thought he was mentally ill? Or was this before? Vicki: Probably, I mean, it was several months. He had lost another job. When he had gotten that job, he said to me, “This is the last job I’m ever going to get.” And I was like, and so what’s your plan after that? And he was like, I don’t have one. I’m just not doing this again. If I lose this job, I’m not getting one again. So then when he lost that job, I remembe…

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Armchair Psychology Examples: When You Get Labeled Jan 09, 2024

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Armchair Pathology: The pathologizing (diagnosing, whether by a formal diagnosis or simply a suggestion) of an individual without thorough, knowledge-based, individualized care by a provider or advocate. If you’re a victim of betrayal, here are some armchair psychology examples you need to be aware of. When a provider or advocate labels a victim with a certain pathology, without being educated or trained in abuse, it can be damaging to the victim. Too many so-called experts subject women to severe harm. If you’re being blamed for your own emotional and psychological abuse, we’re here to help. Attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session TODAY. Why Is Armchair Psychology A Dangerous Practice? The symptoms of trauma often mimic mental illnesses, disorders, and pseudo-psychological conditions (like “codependency.” Meaning that when providers do not factor in trauma and abuse to a client’s profile, any diagnosis or suggestion can be completely inaccurate. Have YOU Experienced The Dangers Of Armchair Psychology? Some victims have experienced the dangers of armchair psychology without even realizing it – because this practice has become so normalized. You can ask yourself these questions: Has a provider or advocate diagnosed me with a mental illness, disorder, or something else, without ever having seen or spoken with me? Have I been prescribed medication without having been given a diagnosis? Was I given a serious diagnosis after only one visit, or after a telehealth appointment? Did the provider give me a diagnosis after speaking with my husband? Transcript: Armchair Psychology Examples: What YOU Need To Know Anne: I have a member of our community on today’s episode, I’m going to call her Paige. Paige is a certified midwife. And she wanted to come on today to talk about armchair psychology examples. And how armchair psychology harms victims. Welcome, Paige Paige: Hi, thanks for having me. Anne: So Paige let’s start with the definition of armchair psychology and why that harms victims. Paige: When people are labeled with a disorder or a diagnosis without actually having had interactions or contact with a provider or advocate. We see it a lot in the betrayal trauma community, “You’re just not healed enough.” Or, “You’re just triggered because you’re not healed.” https://youtu.be/QleyqobSRCQ Armchair Psychology Examples: Harmful Labels and Misconceptions Paige: This is especially when women are countering armchair psychology. They diagnose the woman as codependent, trauma-bonded, or any of these victim-blaming labels. And they’re like, “No, that’s not the case. He actively abuses me. What you say is harmful and perpetuates abuse and abuse mindset.” The armchair psychologist dismisses them as not healed. Because they don’t understand, they’re not healed, they’re triggered. Anne: So many people say if you’re angry, it’s because you’re not healed. It’s not that you’re actively being abused, it’s that the abuse happened long ago and you’re still making a big deal out of it and you shouldn’t be. Codependency falls into this cateory as well, you are not codependent. Paige: Exactly, it’s amusing to me, because many betrayal community women I interact with have gotten to that place where they are like, “Yeah, this is harmful language. This is a systemic problem that needs to be addressed.” They are some of the most healed individuals I’ve met, because they’re really putting in that inner work. They’re not doing a lot of the bypassing. Anne: I think it’s interesting that the more healed she gets, the more likely she is to know what she wants. And to be more confident to set boundaries. Paige: Oh, absolutely. Anne: If she says, “I’m upset. This is frustrating, and I don’t want to talk to you about it. Will you please leave my presence?” Dismissal of Victims’ Experiences: Armchair Psychology Anne: People might be like, “Whoa, what’s wrong with her? She must be traumatized. She can’t even handle a conversation!” Instead of realizing, she just doesn’t want to deal with this anymore. She’s more healed than before. She can see what’s going on and separate herself from it more quickly. With armchair psychology people might think she’s not healed when she is very healed. Also when she’s actively abused, so she can’t be healed, and they’re saying, “You’re not healed enough.” That’s probably true, except they’re not enabling her to be healed because there’s still ongoing abuse. Paige: When you’re still experiencing ongoing abuse, you’ll have parts of you being re-traumatized. That doesn’t necessarily mean that an advocate or provider telling you that you’re not healed isn’t dismissive of reality. Anne: Or it’s useful. If anyone tells you you’re not healed, it should be you. You should be the one who gets to decide. I remember someone telling me, “I’m sorry you’re not happy.” It’s like the classic misogynistic, “You need to smile more!” And I thought, “I am happy.” That doesn’t have anything to do with this other issue. I can be happy and acknowledge that there’s harm going on simultaneously. bad psychology victimizes abuse survivors There Are Systemic Issues in Psychology Paige: That’s why our language is important, and why pathologizing is so harmful. When we’re talking about experiencing something, instead of using the word ‘but’, use the word ‘and’. Like I’m happy and still traumatized. A lot of it roots back to our language and how powerful our language is; especially when working with and experiencing this level of trauma and abuse. Recognizing historically, the models we have in psychology are steeped in misogyny and the abuse of women. So much psychology is built on a foundation of pathologizing women as unstable and hysterical. We need to move away from that. The language we use is important. Somebody may say, “I identify with being trauma-bonded. That felt empowering to me to realize I was trauma-bonded.” As they move through the process, away from those models and unlearning a lot of what is taught, they find that is really blaming victims in its core. Betrayal Trauma Recovery naming the abuse as a choice is very empowering, because we don’t have to revert to pathologizing. Anne: I agree. Armchair psychology is steeped in misogyny, oppression of women, and women are property. So she’s like an extension of her husband, rather than an individual. I love the book, The Woman They Could Not Silence by Kate Moore. They put her in an insane asylum, because they couldn’t figure out why she didn’t love her husband like she should. She had so much hatred of him because he was abusing her and because he put her in an insane asylum. They were like, “She has to stay here, because she should love him and be grateful for him.” It’s just a vicious cycle. Believing Victims & Setting Boundaries For Safety Anne: How hard is it to believe a victim? When she says, “Well, actually, I’m doing well. My boundaries help me feel safer.” And then someone says to them, “No, you’re not. You’re not doing well.” And armchair psychology comes into play. Paige: I think it’s that ego default. I know more than you. I’ve taken more classes. I’ve received certificates. I have more letters after my name. When I went into midwifery, I did the direct entry traditional apprenticeship preceptor model. When you add so many letters to the end of your name, you sometimes sacrifice pieces of yourself for those letters. Your ego is sensitive to those challenges. “I’ve done all this research and I’ve done all this reading, and you are obviously this unhealed victim, so you don’t know as much as I know.” That’s a big part I’ve witnessed. People have a hard time hearing others’ truths. I can acknowledge that people will have different experiences of my spouse, but to minimize that and the betrayal I’ve experienced, because , “He’s a nice guy”… Anne: As she puts that in quotes, right? Paige: Yes. Air quotes for that. …is the ego at play. I don’t want to believe I’ve been tricked. I don’t want to believe I’ve been bamboozled. We don’t want to believe we’ve paid thousands of dollars towards a flawed education system that is inherently based on the abuse and exploitation of women. Anne: One other issue is if they have not been through it themselves, thinking, ” This wouldn’t happen to me so I’m somehow smarter. So I have the answers.” Paige: Luck, pure luck. Ego & Professionalism In Armchair Psychology Anne: It had nothing to do with them. They don’t know it has nothing to do with the victims, either. I think it’s some sort of self protection mechanism, like, “I know more. I can see this and show her how to get out of it. That would never happen to me.” Not realizing, no, this could happen to you as well. It could actually happen to you right now, and you don’t even know it. Paige: When you put gender into play, there are professionals who may have witnessed abuse and trauma in their own childhoods. But being male has a different societal experience than their sister, mother, or grandmother. Their witnessing of it is not the same as somebody actively experiencing it. Anne: By default, all children of women who are abused are also abused. The type of abuse they’re experiencing and the way they’re experiencing it is vastly different than what the wife is experiencing. The more women are aware of this type of abuse and the systemic oppressive nature of the exploitation of women. The more upset we’re getting about it. For good reason. The more abusers think women are overreacting. Thank goodness the healthy men are like, “Yeah, this makes sense.” Even if they can’t understand it on a visceral level, they’re allies in it, and that is helpful. The more women speak out about it, the more abusive men are trying to continue that tradition of oppression of women. Rather than listening and learning, they’re like, “No, that’s not what’s happening. I’m not abusive. You are because you won’t give me intimacy, you won’t do the dishes, or because you’re asking me questions.” Armchair Psychology & Angry Feminists Paige: Then they want to gaslight the situation by being like, “Now you’re just an angry feminist.” Whatever thing they’ve deemed derogatory or less than, so it can just completely excuse their behavior because you’ve fallen into this less than category. Anne: When someone says that to me, I’m like, “Of course I’m an angry feminist, absolutely! You’re not? Why would you not be?” That’s confusing, because of course I’m an angry feminist. All people who realize the systemic oppression of women should be angry. And they should be feminists. To me, it’s not an insult. I’m like, “Yes, you’ve hit the nail on the head. Thank you.” The reason they say that is to manipulate you to act differently, hoping you’ll be like, “Oh, I am. I’m sorry. I won’t be so upset. I’ll do something different.” So when we agree and say, “Oh, yeah, thanks for pointing that out. I’m so proud to be that. Yeah, that’s great.” Paige: I get my personal experience from 20 years ago. I saw a provider and received a diagnosis of bipolar disorder. Psychology examples like that. Any provider I’ve interacted with since then is like, “That’s a weird thing to diagnose you with. You definitely don’t fit the category for bipolar disorder.” I dated somebody I had been friends with since middle school. We dated after high school. This person emotionally abused me. And I was misdiagnosed with this pathology. I stopped all medication. I have not taken any psychiatric medication since. Wrongly Pathologizing Women’s Trauma Paige: We have a mass medicalization of women because we don’t have the proper avenues in place to address trauma and abuse. The lack of naming abuse that’s occurring happens so often to women. You have a woman who is assaulted and then she’s diagnosed with borderline. When your body responds organically and physiologically, how it’s designed when it comes to trauma and abuse. The biggest issue with armchair psychology we see is oftentimes that women’s pathology is used to medicate. And further abuse them. Men’s pathology is used to enable and excuse abusive behaviors. Anne: There’s also this misogynistic thing going on that it’s easier for women if they have some kind of black-and-white situation. He is 100 percent unable to change, so now I can get to safety. Or, he 100 percent is not willing to change, so now I can get to safety. Safety & Boundaries In Relationships Anne: Rather than realizing you need to get to safety, whether he can change or not, If he’s not safe right now. You don’t need to worry about whether he can change. Or worry about whether a program can change him. You don’t need to worry about any of that, which is really hard. All you need to think about is he a healthy, safe person right now, today? Then today I need to get to safety. It’s like saying, “This person has Ebola and I know they can be cured, so I’m going to continue sleeping in the same bed with them.” That would be crazy! If the person is currently unsafe, your proximity to them is not a good idea. If they had some kind of dangerous disease, you would not want to be in proximity to them until they were better. Thinking someone can be cured from Ebola, and so you can hang out with them and dinner with them when they’re still actively showing symptoms, is not wise. Paige: I’ve not heard that analogy before, but I can see the application. Regardless of whether they can be cured or not, you’re actively being abused. You’re actively exposed to this virus so you are still experiencing the negative effects of it. Anne: I think that’s what people need to think about. Are they currently exhibiting unhealthy abusive behaviors? That’s your indicator, not whether they could stop them in the future. Also being able to recognize the difference between actual healthy behaviors and grooming, which is also hard. This is why it’s important to learn how to set boundaries with your husband. Harmful Armchair Psychology Examples Pathologize Women Paige: On that same subject that is harmful with the armchair or pathologizing is the providers who tell women they aren’t healed, are the same people profiting from her desperate desires to be whole. Anne: Especially if it’s another woman who has been through it. For example, there are women who have been through it, who feel like the codependency model helped them. Who am I to disagree with their experience? I can only disagree with the model. Paige: When you disagree with the model itself, that’s where ego comes into play. People are like, “No, you’re telling me that I didn’t experience what I did.” I’m literally just saying this model itself is harmful, and here are the reasons why it’s harmful. It continues to blame victims for being active in her own abuse, when that’s not the case. Anne: There were times when I did 12 step for my husband’s addiction. So I was in “recovery.” doing 12 steps. I worked on “my side of the street” because I thought it worked. That’s what people told me. I had faith in that, and practiced the principles they taught. I found myself repeatedly abused, not understanding abuse and not getting any abuse education. CSAT therapists can fall into this category too. For an abuse victim, I look back at 12 Step and think I was so much more traumatized than I needed to be at the time. Because of armchair psychology of diagnosis. Trauma In 12 Step Programs Anne: I was doing the best I could. I think people trying to help me in 12 step were doing the best they could. I don’t think they had negative intentions. But now thinking back, I’m like, wow, they said super, super harmful things. It’s too harmful to have a bunch of victims sitting in a circle, not knowing they’re victims of abuse, trying to look at their own character defects rather than realizing, “Wait, we’re victims of abuse. We’re strong, we’re brave. We can get to safety.” Thinking back on that is taking my breath away right now. That was so yucky. Paige: It’s the hope to not have somebody else expe…

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Faith Triumphs Over Ritual Abuse – Anna’s Story Jan 02, 2024

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In this faith-focused podcast episode, Anne Blythe, M.Ed, talks with a victim of ritual abuse. Here’s how one woman’s story can help protect you and your family. We recognize that many victims of spiritual abuse find religion and spirituality traumatizing, while others find religion and spirituality comforting and healing. Please know that you are welcome and loved in this community, no matter where you are on the spectrum of spirituality. Our BTR.ORG Group Sessions are a safe space for you to process the grief that often accompanies spiritual abuse. Please attend a session today. How Does Spiritual Abuse Affect Victims? Spiritual abuse takes many forms. From abusive men using scripture to coerce wives, to clergy counseling victims to “forgive and forget” abuse and infidelity. Victims of religious abuse may find that religion and spirituality are traumatizing. Women in our community experiencing spiritual abuse share that they get triggered when they: Enter a place of worship Hear certain verses of scripture Clergy, other male leadership or congregation members approach them Hear or sing spiritual songs or hymns Pray In the case of Anna M. Jonathan, a member of the BTR.ORG community. The severe spiritual abuse she endured in the form of ritual child abuse did not deter her from engaging in healthy religious and spiritual practices later in life. Can Victims Of Spiritual Abuse Find Healing? Many victims of spiritual abuse find healing. Some through disengaging from religious practices, and others through finding a new relationship with their Higher Power. Victims experience trauma and feel powerless in a scary or painful situation. When this happens over and over, as in instances of psychological and emotional abuse, infidelity, and coercion. Victims may experience a unique level of trauma that makes healing feel impossible. However, as victims take courageous actions to protect themselves from harm, educate themselves about abuse, and seek community and validation. Healing becomes possible. Spiritual abuse is one of the most insidious forms of control over another person. Abusers taking advantage of, or completely ruining, another human being’s relationship with their Higher Power is purely cruel. At BTR.ORG, we want you to know that we trust you however you need to heal from spiritual abuse. Whether that’s by re-engaging with religious and spiritual practices in a new way, or stepping away. We understand and support you. Transcript: Faith Triumphs Over Ritual Abuse – Anna’s Story Since this episode deals with Ritual Abuse, to find out more about Ritual Abuse, here are some reputable resources: US Department Of Justice Information For Ritual Abuse Survivors National Library Of Medicine Ritualistic Abuse of Children: Dynamics and Impact Anne: I have a special guest on today’s episode. Her pen name is Anna. We’re not going to get graphic. We will talk around that, we will also talk about how this interacted with her faith. She and I share the same faith tradition. We’re both still active in our church. So we’re going to be talking about that. For those who are agnostic or different Christian religions or, you are Jewish or Muslim, you are welcome here. We will share our own faith experience. She is a victim of satanic ritual abuse. Welcome Anna. Anna: Thank you. I was born into a family where my father was already a member of a satanic ritual abuse occult. And this particular occult was loosely based on the Law of Moses and Mosaic law. There are different definitions of numbers and how things were done. Ceremonies were done according to the ages of people. They would loosely follow that, but yet would use my church, which I grew up in as a cover. So they were all good members of the church, supposedly, on the outside. But they would meet together and loosely base everything on a Mosaic law. They felt like they were interpreting things in their own way. Anne: So quickly, when I hear the term satanic ritual abuse occult, I think the people involved worship Satan. You know, they talk about Satan, but you’re saying that’s not the case. The reason why it has that satanic label is because of its evilness. Ritual Abuse Mimicked Church Heirachy Anne: But in their actual rituals, they could be referencing God. They could refer to scripture, or in this case, you’re saying the law of Moses. And so like a little kid might not realize this is evil. They might think, “Oh this is just a religious ceremony.” Am I making sense? Anna: The occult I associated with mimicked the hierarchy in the church. There was a bishop, a prophet, and people in the church type thing or in the occult. So they would mimic certain things. But yet they were strong to do things that made you know, to let you know physically and tangibly that Jesus was not all powerful. Satan was more powerful than Jesus Christ. So, when I say satanic… Anne: So they did okay… Anna: Yeah, it’s a power struggle It’s not, do they both exist? Does Jesus exist? And does Satan exist? It’s who’s more powerful. Anne: And in their minds Anna: Satan is more powerful, because Satan is tangible, but Jesus Christ is a thing of your imagination. Anne: Why is Satan tangible to them, just out of curiosity? Because the violence is right there, and they can do it? Anna: Right there. Anne: Thank you for explaining that. What’s the definition of satanic ritual abuse occult? Would you say there’s a difference between just satanic ritual abuse and the occult part? What Satanic Ritual Abuse Occult Means Anna: I think when someone hears the title satanic ritual abuse occult, they just shut down. When you break it down, it makes a lot of sense. Satanic is just Satan, evil. And ritual is something you do in a precise manner. We all have rituals. Every morning, we get up, brush our teeth, and eat our breakfast. So, a ritual is not evil, but when the ritual is evil. And occult means out of view or secret. So, you’re just looking at evil things done in a precise manner, abusively, undercover, basically secret. https://youtube.com/shorts/GcKBBYifx2I Anne: We acknowledge, whoa, this is evil. Do the people who engage in these types of behaviors acknowledge it’s wrong? Do they acknowledge that what they’re doing is what Satan would want? Are they like, yeah, Satan’s proud of us? Or do they just think they’re doing like, what do they think? Anna: Well, I can’t talk for all of them. I can only talk for the occult which involved me, from my birth. I was born in the later fifties. And back then, you didn’t share a lot about the things in your home. I thought of things happening at home as normal until I married. That’s what people did, even though I didn’t feel good about it. I got sick a lot as a child. And had mononucleosis for eight months and lots of throat issues. I just thought I was a sickly child. My parents argued a lot, and I had several siblings, and I just thought, well, all families are like that. All families struggle with their parents. When you get to be a teenager, you know, everybody doesn’t like their mom and dad. Finding Out Something’s Wrong Anna: Well, I didn’t like my dad. We weren’t allowed to mingle and talk. You just didn’t talk a lot about your family situation. I wasn’t aware until I married and was into therapy. And started doing subcognitive thinking therapy. I started to realize, Whoa, something’s wrong here, and I didn’t understand it. Because I was raised in the gospel of Jesus Christ in the church. I really tried to live the principles of the gospel in my home. I tried to do everything I was supposed to do through the teachings of the church. And just realized that I fell short all the time, that I wasn’t that good. I always had a bad self esteem, because I just felt like I wasn’t measuring up. Anne: Not knowing that you had experienced this horrendous, horrific abuse in your home, thinking that something was wrong with you. Anna: Exactly. And not everyone in my home experienced the same things I was. Some of my siblings were favored. They were more involved in the occult, and others weren’t involved hardly at all. And we didn’t talk between ourselves as I look back and look at other people. And I’ve learned and had education and stuff. I realized whoa, you know our family was… Anne: How many siblings did you have? Anna: There are eight children altogether. Anne: Has anyone since you’ve realized what it was that you experienced, and you’ve started talking about it. Has anyone else confirmed your experience? How has that been with your sibling? Realizing The Ritual Abuse Anna: I grew up in the church, I ended up marrying a returned missionary. I later realized it was basically an arranged marriage, because my husband was part of the occult. Which I wasn’t aware of, we married in the temple, sealed in the temple, and had children. And they were starting to be groomed. In the occult. I just knew something was really wrong. I started going suicidal, and this was when I was married. After getting out of the psych unit for the first time, I was told there was a real problem in my marriage. But divorce was never an option because I’d been sealed in the temple. I just kept trying to figure out what was wrong, that I was doing wrong. And why we always kept hitting brick walls. And so finally, I started going to see a therapist. The therapist didn’t pick up on any spousal abuse or child abuse that were both going on in our home. But I saw this therapist for four years, and he’s the one that had me read a lot of books and stuff. I realized that in the occult, you are punished if you showed any emotions at all. And I know that’s not just an occult thing. There’s abuse that goes on where, you know, if you show any emotion, you get more abused. But it was traumatic. If you cried at all or whimpered at all as a child, you were hurt more, horribly abused. And so you learned to not show any emotions. But this therapist started teaching me to listen to myself, to understand my feelings and go with my feelings. That was such a blessing. Trusting My Feelings & Therapist’s Advice Anna: So I started listening to the spirit more and trusting my feelings. I started to get the feeling that something was really wrong. Especially when these doctors in the psych unit said there’s something wrong with your marriage. So you need to get into some counseling and stuff. My husband wouldn’t do it. But it wasn’t long after I got out of the hospital that he left and we separated. People blamed me for keeping him out of the home. My kids wanted to see him so bad, and I just kept saying, no, there’s something wrong. No, he’s not coming back into the home. And as time went on, the next few months, I ended up with a new therapist. After two sessions, this therapist said, “Would you at least try and consider divorce?” I asked her why, because I was shocked. What had I been saying you would think I needed to get a divorce? And she said, there were three things. First of all, you can’t stand him touching you. You don’t trust him with your children. And you self destruct in this relationship. And so within two hours after I left her office, I had a divorce attorney. I had finances to pay the attorney, and I’d called my bishop. So I knew I needed to talk to him. From that point on, I just had to listen to the spirit. I had my two visiting teachers and a sibling that lived about five hours away. This was before cell phones we talked on the phone about every day. Following My Feelings & Keeping Ritual Abuse Secret Anna: Those three women encouraged me to follow my feelings, to have the faith and courage to follow the Spirit. Well, we did get a divorce, and that was extremely risky for me to do. Because that could blow the cover for the occult. Because our family was considered the example family for the church. We were sealed in the temple. And we were all active, and we all excelled in our jobs and stuff. Anne: For listeners who aren’t familiar with our faith, we attend church services on Sunday, and then we also participate in temple ordinances. When she’s talking about the temple, she’s not talking about the satanic ritual abuse occult stuff. We’ve both attended the temple, nothing satanic happens in our temples. So I just wanted to make sure that we separated that out. So as people listen to their story, and they hear you talking about being sealed in the temple. Which is a beautiful ceremony and peaceful. And the spirit is there, that’s not what she’s talking about. She participated in that with her husband, thinking they had a good relationship. And then this satanic stuff was happening elsewhere. Sorry, I just wanted to make that clear for people who aren’t members of our faith. Anna: I appreciate that. Anne: Did you start talking about the abuse during this time? Like, like publicly, you’re saying they didn’t want you to blow the cover. So do you have family members who try to shut you up? Or do they try to stop the divorce? Choosing Divorce Despite Clerical Advice Anna: Well, at this time, realizing that I had just come out of the psych unit. about eight months before this. I was on heavy medication. I wasn’t working. And was a stay at home mom. I was heavily sedated. My husband and I were in couples therapy, trying to make our marriage work. But as the months went on, I realized something still didn’t feel right. Despite all the medication and therapy, my relationship with my husband was still toxic and emotionally abusive. I felt trapped and isolated, and had no support system. I proceeded to get a divorce. Everyone, even my attorney, thought I was going to fail totally. But I had the spirit of the Lord. I had the Lord on my side, and I can testify of that. I went through the divorce, and my bishop was unhappy about it. Anne: Your bishop did not want you to get divorced? Anna: No, the day I came home from the therapist, the doors opened like crazy for my divorce. And I went to see my bishop three days later, and I explained everything to him. I wanted his counsel on it. And he gave me a scripture to read out of the Book of Mormon. He said, if you read this scripture and do what it says, you will get your answer. And when I walked out of his office, I was so discouraged. But the thought came to me: I had asked for his counsel, and I at least needed to try and follow that counsel and see what happened. Study & Prayer Led Me To Seeking Divorce Anna: And so I did. I went home that night, and started studying that scripture. I started fasting and praying. And then a couple of days later, I went to the temple. Which the temple for me was a sacred place, and I got my answer in the temple. And it was definitely the answer, I was to divorce. I was shocked, because I thought something must be really wrong for the Lord to sanction a divorce. I still didn’t understand the whole situation. And so I basically did this on faith. The bishop was shocked when I told him my answer. In fact, he brought me some articles the night before the divorce court about how divorce was not the answer. And I wrote him a card and said I don’t know why, but I know that if I don’t do what I feel impressed to do here. I will be destroyed. It’s not gonna be good. And I said so I have to do this. I feel so impressed that I need to do this. And so, I did, and about a month later, after the divorce, I felt so much peace. But then I get the impression that I need to educate myself on spousal abuse and child abuse. And you gotta remember that this was 30 years ago. So I go to the library and check out books and reading. Moving To Get Away From Ritual Abuse Anna: And then the question came to me, if I’m no longer available, what does the perpetrator do? And in the book I read, it confirmed many times they’ll turn to the children. And I just panicked. That’s when I learned about my children’s abuse, about my abuse. About ten months later, we moved to a whole other state. It’s one of those stories where I prayed one nigh…

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What You Need To Know About Reunification Therapy Dec 26, 2023

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Women all over the United States think they’re doing the right thing, divorcing their abusive husband. That the court will help them protect their children from abuse. But instead, the court orders the children to reunification therapy. Here’s what everyone needs to know about reunification therapy. Tina Swithin from One Mom’s Battle and Anne Blythe, M.Ed. from The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast talk about what you need to know. Therapy should, first and foremost, empower children. Reunification therapy does the exact opposite. “Professionals” re-abuse children, subjecting them to reunification therapy by gaslighting them into blaming their protective parent for the negative feelings they have for the abuser. Abusers not only traumatize the children by the gaslighting itself, but also children are: Often forced into participation against their will. Accused of lying about the abuse. Forced to spend time with their abuser. Isolated from their protective/preferred parent. Considering how harmful Reunification Therapy is, how can it possibly exist? It’s a “lucrative cottage industry” that abusers have weaponized to gain access to their child victims, while causing inexpressible pain to the protective parent. And those in the reunification industry continue to push for it because it lines their pockets. If you’re experiencing the trauma of the family court system, please attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session today – you are not alone and you do not have to endure this on your own. We love you, we believe you. Transcript: What You Need To Know About Reunification Therapy Anne: I have a super special guest on today’s episode. It’s Tina Swithin, and so many of you are familiar with her. Tina is an internationally recognized blogger and champion of children’s rights in the family court system. She endured a 10 year family court battle representing herself, and against all odds was successful in protecting her children. Tina works to raise awareness on the shortcomings and failures of the family court system, while educating the public on post separation abuse and narcissistic abuse. Anne: Welcome Tina. Tina: Thank you so much. Happy to be here. Happy to connect. Anne: We had the privilege of meeting in person in a protest in Utah about family court and how it does not protect children. You may have seen us do an Instagram live during that time. So I wanted Tina to talk about a few issues related to family court, and how in most states, for a protective parent seeking a divorce from an abusive parent, that protective parent has a very hard time protecting her children. Anne: On my podcast, because our audience is women who have been abused by men, I speak in gender segregated ways, simply because that is our audience. But I want to recognize that women can also be abusive. However, for our listeners, since they’re all women victims of male abusers, that’s why I talk like this. Reunification Camps, DCFS & Therapy Anne: Should we start with reunification camps and maybe reunification therapy? Tina: Yes, I think that’s a good place to dive in. And it’s a hot topic right now. It’s something that has infiltrated the family court system and is definitely not in a child’s best interest. Anne: So I have a friend who’s a pediatrician, and sometimes she refers cases she sees in her pediatric office to DCFS, which is Division of Child and Family Services here in Utah. She reports cases in Utah, they never return as supported. Every time she reports child abuse in the state of Utah, it comes back as unsupported. And the reason it comes back as unsupported is because usually it’s the safe parent, like a safe mom, that brings the child into the pediatrician’s office, and it happened at an ex-husband’s home. And when DCFS talks to the man accused of the abuse, as long as he has a reason. If he says, “Oh, no, that didn’t happen.” What happened was I was trying to, help with her homework, or explain to him how to do this. Or he says, “Sorry I lost my temper, but I’m a good dad.” As long as he explains it, and he doesn’t say yes, I am an abuser. It comes back as unsupported. She has no way to help these protective moms protect their kids from abuse. In many cases, kids don’t want to go. Tina: To piggyback on what you said, it’s a universal problem across the entire country. And I believe there are two things at play. Bias Against Protective Moms In Family Courts Tina: Number one, there is a strong bias that moms make up abuse allegations to get a leg up in custody. So as soon as they hear there is any type of family court case or child custody situation, they cannot close it fast enough. That’s a lot of what we’re up against. The second factor is that they see horrors daily. And the threshold for what’s acceptable is so skewed. The majority of situations that they are investigating don’t even register on their scale of abuse or neglect. And it’s really unfortunate, because this is an entity that is failing our kids. And when a mom is in the family court system, she has very few resources to support her truth and her side of the story. Most people walk into this naively, believing that these other organizations are there to act in a child’s best interest. And so they walk in with this false sense of hope that if a pediatrician does report it, it will bolster their case and their ability to protect their child. I tell people in family court, I don’t believe reports do anything except a paper trail. If you get enough of them, it can start to have an impact. But, you know, when moms are in family court, there are many, many challenges that they are facing. And CPS findings are just one of those. Anne: So your first barrier is number one, thinking that reporting. is going to help. This is a big problem in fighting a narcissist for custody. The He Said, She Said Dilemma Anne: They do a very quick investigation. It’s unsupported if he gives a “good reason.” Then you look like the bad guy for claiming he’s abusive when he’s not. And the only thing he had to do was say, no, no, no, I’m not abusive. That negates both the victim’s account, which is the child, and then also the safe parent’s account. Tina: Right, and I think a large part of the problem in family court is that it is he said, she said. Family Court has the same issue that CPS does. The threshold will skew for what is acceptable. So they take someone’s word at face value. The majority of things happening in family court are considered hearsay. The family court system becomes annoyed with people, you know, they don’t understand the dynamics at play. That this is typically one high conflict individual, and one parent desperate to protect their children. The court lumps the protective parent into the same category. And. It’s really difficult to go in with solid evidence, because abusers do not abuse children in broad daylight. They do sometimes, but it’s rare. Usually, what is happening is behind closed doors. We’re dealing with a court system that is if, at a very minimum, they have 101 training on domestic violence. But most family court judges and professionals have no training on these issues. And so when you get into the more complex coercive control, it’s an uphill battle. You know, there’s a reason why it took a decade in my case to finally terminate rights. And that’s a common scenario. I tell people, if your case is not still active when your kids age out of the system, it’s somewhat of a miracle. Reunification Therapy Disempowers Children Anne: You know, it’s interesting, because abuse advocates will go into schools. Or talk to kids and say, if this is happening, do you reach out to a safe adult and report? And they think that if they could get kids to report their abuse, they could be protected. If a child says, “My parent abuses me” in court, that child must prove they’re abused. It’s so difficult to stop emotional abuse from your husband. If they just say, my parent abuses me, and the accused parent says, no, no, that’s not what’s happening. The court gives them no protection. Children’s cries for help, doing what adults told them to do. They were like, okay, I went to that assembly, and now I’m going to reach out and ask for help. I’m going to report that this is happening to me. And then a system further abuses them, that won’t believe them or discounts their accounts. Tina: Right, and these professionals barely trained in the 101 of domestic violence don’t understand victim perpetrator behaviors. And how children present when telling these stories. A statement I heard in the past few months resonates with me. “It’s easier for people to believe that a child is coached to disclose these things, than to believe that a child is abused.” We don’t believe this darkness in society, but it is there. Accusations Of Coaching & Alienation Tina: And we have to start listening to these kids. When a child is a victim of abuse, and finally feels empowered. And brave enough to report. The healthy parent, the mom in most situations, fights accusations of coaching them. Or the big word in the family court system, which has infiltrated and created an absolute disaster, alienation. They accuse you of alienation. Abusers employ that legal strategy to turn the tables and focus and spotlight on what’s going on. What they have been doing behind closed doors, and shift the blame to the parent who is just trying to protect their child. https://youtube.com/shorts/34WXrOpiGG4 Anne: So a child desperately wants no contact and no exposure to further abuse. In the form of just being around their abuser. The court says in so many cases, “No, your parent coached you into saying that. You’re not actually abused. Your parent that you say is abusing you is fine, he’s a great guy. In fact, you need to get your story straight. And so we will court order you to reunification therapy.” This reunification therapy can take many forms. They can essentially kidnap or traffic the children and take them across state lines to a reunification camp. The court forces children to do therapy and reconcile with their abuser in reunification therapy. And they force the child to improve or repair their relationship with their abuser. Reunification Therapy: A Closer Look Anne: So can you talk about both forms of reunification torture, let’s call it? Tina: Sure, it is, that is what it is. The way I describe it, if there is a finding of abuse and everyone’s on board and believes this is happening, it cuts off the financial flow of money. Because we know we cannot fix an abuser. Anne: Really quickly, let’s just pretend for a minute that they were like, “Oh, child, you’re abused? Okay, you don’t have to go with your dad. Your mom gets full custody.” The end, and the custody case is over. The divorce case is over and signed. They just go their merry way. Are you saying that if that would happen, then all the custody evaluators, guardian ad litems, therapists, et cetera. That are part of this system, would not be able to make money? Because they make money off of these court ordered requirements? Tina: Absolutely. Anne: So, They’re all kind of in on it. Tina: I think there are some who believe they are doing the right thing. You know, there is this common thought, that two parents are better than one, no matter what, is a common thought you know. I don’t agree with that. I think a child needs one healthy adult in their life to thrive. Judges & The Alienation Industry Tina: But, that’s a large part of the bias we’re up against in the family court system. And so we have a range of professionals who believe they’re doing the right thing. Or they may be doing the right thing. To people who, this is their financial livelihood. And, from that, we see rings of collusion or outright corruption throughout the family court system. A lot of people motivated by their own bank accounts don’t prioritize the best interests of a child. Anne: One of my questions is, since it’s the guardian ad litems, custody evaluators and therapists that get the money from this. A judge gets a regular salary from the county or state. They’re not necessarily paid more if they send more kids to reunification therapy, for example. Tina: I think that when we’re looking at judges and why they would order this. If they have a regular salary and don’t get more money. There are those who believe they are doing the right thing, and they’ve drank the Kool Aid. That these professionals have poured. I call it the alienation industry. It’s a lucrative cottage industry. So the trainings that the judges are taking in, they are seeing these people as experts. Overbooked calendars cause judges to force people through this system, like cattle, and the judges are in this state of overwhelm. They almost have, I call it, the a la carte menu on their desk. Oh, great, I can push this case off on this person who can dive in and investigate what’s going on. Reunification Therapy Is Traumatizing Tina: But that person is financially motivated to label a parent as alienator. Anne: Like a custody evaluator, for example, or a guardian ad litem. Because if they say, nope, this is just an abuser, and the kid shouldn’t go with them. Then they’re not able to charge their hourly rates anymore. Tina: Absolutely, and then they force the child through reunification therapy, it’s not successful. You can’t force two people into a relationship that’s fractured. Common sense tells us this. Or if there is no bond in the first place. That has to be something that works naturally, not with forced intervention. And especially in cases where abuse occurs. This is further traumatizing these children. So when these children are not complying or going along with the program, the extreme situation would be for the reunification therapist to recommend reunification therapy camp. That’s a very extreme and further traumatizing direction that I wouldn’t wish on anyone. The stories haunt me. Anne: The logic that judges have so many cases that they’re like, I’m just too overwhelmed, so I’m going to pass this off to a custody evaluator is interesting. Because if they do that, there are more and more hearings. There’s more and more to do when that happens. If they really wanted to clear their docket, they’d just be like, Oh, this child says she’s being abused. I’m just going to listen to the kid and declare this over. I think it’s ironic if they’re like, Oh, I’m so overwhelmed. That they would choose the thing that makes way more work for themselves. Abusers Weaponize Reunification Therapy Tina: But they know that these cases are high conflict. Some people don’t like that word, but it is the label used or that phrase. And so regardless of which direction it goes, they’re going to keep filing. A lot of these abusive individuals are vexatious litigants, where they use the family court system as their playground. They continue their reign of terror and control, it’s not going to stop the case. They’re going to keep trying. So in the case of Ty and Brindley Larson. We had Child Protective Services come in and make multiple findings of abuse, which, as we’ve discussed, is incredibly rare. Not only did they substantiate the abuse, they labeled some sexual abuse and other types chronic and severe. And when that happened, it completely took the case out of family court, and the kids were protected. And the kids did not have to see their abuser. There was actually a restraining order in place. I believe it was for 150 days. And, and at that point, the alleged abuser brought the case back into family court. And before you know it, there were multiple professionals put into place. A reunification therapy therapist, minors council, and all of a sudden these children are being forced back into visits with their alleged abuser. And not only visits but overnight visits. Anne: This isn’t alleged at this point, right? Because DCFS supported it? Tina: Some people say because he didn’t go through th…

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Staying Married After Infidelity? – Linda’s Story Dec 19, 2023

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If you’re staying married after infidelity, it may be helpful to hear the stories of other women who have also chosen this path. If you want to stay married, but you’re also looking for safety, consider The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop to give you strategies to use to keep yourself emotionally and psychologically safe after his betrayal. Transcript: Staying Married After Infidelity? What You Need To Know Anne: We have a member of our community on today. I’m going to call her Linda. She discovered her husband of nearly 17 years had been repeatedly unfaithful to her throughout their marriage. Linda decided to use some of The Living Free Strategies while staying married after infidelity. The Living Free Workshop is to help women determine the type of character their husband has through strategy. In Linda’s case, she decided to use the strategies and stay with her husband. So Linda, let’s start with your story. How would you have described your marriage before you discovered your husband’s infidelity? Linda: Before I found out, I would have called our marriage an idyllic marriage. I would have said that we had pretty much a storybook relationship. We were best friends, were each other’s favorite person in the whole world. We’ve always enjoyed spending time together. All of our friends, all of our family, a lot of them look to us as the example for marriage. It seemed, it seemed really great. The Devastation Of Discovery Day Anne: What was it like to realize that everything you believed was a lie? Linda: It was devastating. It shattered my whole world. I’ve described it to people like a puzzle. If our life is a puzzle. And before that day, I felt like my puzzle was all together, all the pieces fit. It was a really pretty puzzle. And that day, when I found that out, it was as if someone took that puzzle and just threw it. The pieces went everywhere, maybe some of them even broke and went under pieces of furniture or something. And, for the next however many months staying married after infidelity, it was this scramble. This panicky scramble to try and find all those pieces and get them to fit back together. Except now I realized they don’t fit. All this perfect picture that I thought I had, isn’t what I thought it was, and it doesn’t fit together like I thought it did. Anne: We’ve talked about D-Day on the podcast before, which means Discovery Day. The day you find out that your husband lied to you, d-day the reality you’re living in is not actual reality, right? It is mind bending. Navigating The Fog Of Infidelity With Truth Linda: if I’m honest, I would say the first at least three months, maybe longer than that. After the first D-Day, I didn’t navigate it. I went into this deep, deep, deep fog staying together after infidelity, and I didn’t know which way was up, and I didn’t even try. I call it a zombie phase where you’re dead on your feet. You get up, and go through the motions. And you do the things that need doing. I have very few memories of that time, and it was almost like I was just a robot or something going through that time. I don’t know. My brain was just off. I really, really struggled with my relationship with God during that time. And didn’t understand how he could let that happen. I had spent my whole life following him, praying for my husband and for our marriage. I never thought about how do I know if my husband is taking advantage of me. It felt like God had betrayed me too. I was angry, really angry with him. I would pray and say terrible things to him. It was an awful time, but he pursued me through that time and was patient with me through my tantrums. After several months, I did eventually start to believe what he says in his word about me, about him. Eventually I got through that fog by believing truth. Anne: I felt a similar thing during the worst fog, which was a nine month period after my husband’s arrest. I couldn’t feel God at all. In spite of my prayers, in spite of my scripture study, and it was such a difficult time. Linda: Yeah. Staying Together After Infidelity? Finding Comfort In Scripture Anne: And now out of the fog, I can see him during that time when I was staying with my husband after infidelity. And I’m grateful for his patience, because what we went through that fog is a classic trauma response where we are very wounded and can’t process things. He, Is there even if we can’t feel him. Linda: And he’s so patient that the scripture, especially the Psalms and also Lamentations, helps me be at peace. I think with that time and to recognize that I would even say like God was okay with it. So I think he appreciated that I was coming to him with my raw honesty. I wasn’t holding back and pretending. You know, everything was fine when it wasn’t. I screamed at him when I wanted to scream at him and was real. I think he wants our authentic selves. He knows we’re broken. He knows we’re ugly. And he just wants us to come to him as we are. Anne: So either during this time or after this time, talk to me about the aha moments you experienced. Linda: For me, one of the first and biggest aha moments was when I got to the place where I had to be okay with the idea of my marriage ending. I was a child of divorce, and I had vowed I would never, ever, ever get divorced. And I clung to that. God brought me to a place where I recognized that I had made my marriage an idol. I had put this, I won’t get divorced above God. I had decided almost that if God asked me to leave my marriage, I wouldn’t. Conflicting Values & God’s Will Linda: I would rather be staying with my husband after cheating than do what he asked me to do. So to get to a place where I said, okay, God, I’m going to follow you. I’m going to do what you want. Even if that means being a divorced person, which, you know, is this terrible thing in my mind. Anne: This is where it gets really tricky. I think for women of faith, because there are these values in conflict. God’s will for us is to be in a safe spiritual situation, staying with him after infidelity. It’s not to be in this dangerous situation with someone who’s being duplicitous. Linda: A passage that struck me really hard recently is that I’m not gonna remember the exact reference, but it’s in Malachi. And it’s the passage where God talks about how he hates divorce. He’s talking to the men of Israel. They’re asking why isn’t he accepting their worship? And he says, because I saw the vows you made to your wives, and I see that you’re being unfaithful to them. And he says, you know, I hate divorce, but the message behind that is more than I hate divorce. I hate seeing my daughters abused. And he demands their faithfulness. He says, come back and be faithful to your wives. Staying Emotionally Safe In Marriage After Infidelity Anne: The reason why God made commandments was to keep people safe. Linda: Yes Anne: If everyone in the world obeyed God’s commandments. If everyone was honest, the exploitation, abuse, and harm done to other people would disappear. I mean, that’s the point of the commandments. When you don’t obey the commandments, it actually harms someone else. Linda: Yes Anne: So it’s not just for your own, like, Oh, good. I’m gonna go to heaven. Linda: It’s for our safety, yeah. The Power Of Truth Anne: So I read my scriptures every day. I found boundaries almost on every page while staying married after infidelity, as I did my scripture study in the morning. It was amazing. I’m really grateful for his guidance through the scriptures. And I think it’s sad, because so many women are so traumatized. That picking up their scriptures seems so overwhelming. It seems like there’s no way like, why would I do that? I’m not getting any answers. I’m out of God. God has abandoned me. I’ve obeyed the commandments. And here I am in this awful situation. He hasn’t kept his promise. That power that can come from the scriptures during this difficult time is sometimes lost. Linda: Absolutely. Anne: You mentioned one of your aha moments was that you wanted to cover yourself in truth. What did that look like for you? How The Truth Will Guide You After Infidelity Linda: Before I talk about covering myself in truth. That was really terrifying to me, because I was still trying to live in the secrets, while staying married after he cheated. And so it was really scary, but because I wanted to find out what the Bible had to say about it. I wanted to find out what the Bible has to say about boundaries. If I wanted to find scripture about telling the truth. So that became how I covered myself in truth, because I studied and studied, finding all these verses. And then those would be in my head. And so every day for months, just scripture going through my head repeatedly. It had massive effects on our life. I suddenly started seeing lies everywhere. You know, someone would ask me a question and I’d give my normal. Oh, I’m fine answer. Trying to minimize my pain or pretend like I was okay. That wasn’t truth. Staying Married After Infidelity: The Truth Shall Set You Free Linda: I learned through that time of trying to stay after infidelity. To let everything that came out of my mouth, I mean, as much as possible. Because I’m still human, be saturated in truth and it changed everything. Anne: And the truth shall set you free. Linda: Absolutely. Anne: There’s so much confidence that I gain knowing that this type of sin is wrong. And that I am doing God’s will to set a very firm boundary around it. Linda: Yes. Anne: I don’t know if I would have that firm confidence if I didn’t know it was coming straight from God. Especially because my particular church leaders weren’t supportive of what I was doing. Or they couldn’t understand it. And they thought I was not being faithful, it just gave me the confidence. That I needed to stand up to, I would say, just either my church culture or society or people who don’t understand this. And it brought me a lot of peace. Linda: You know, I had talked earlier about making my marriage an idol. I believe that’s another thing I had made an idol of is the teachings of the church. Instead of following just scripture, I had allowed man’s interpretation of that, right? To shape me and I became more dedicated to that than the word itself. And like you said, there are so many churches that don’t get it all right. Years and years and years probably centuries of tradition has gotten in the way of what the Bible actually says about it. Anne: Sexual sin is old, right? It is the deepest sin we have as humans. And it is the most destructive. Linda: Absolutely. Getting Support While Staying together After Infidelity Anne: Well, I guess aside from murder, it is so deep in our culture, and so ingrained in, “What it means to be a man.” And also “What it means to be a woman.” How we are supposed to interact. All those, we would say roles, not the relationship God wants us to have. And focus on a peaceful, loving relationship. And I think part of that is coming from centuries of sexual sin. Linda: Yeah Anne: So you talked about how you started speaking the truth while staying together after infidelity. So that’s one way that you dealt with your anger and feelings toward your husband. Talk about other ways you dealt with it. Linda: For me, I had been so isolated for so long. This does kind of go along with the truth part of it. I Decided that I was going to kind of come out. I don’t know if that’s the right word, the right way to say it. You know, I wasn’t going to hide anymore. I told our children about it. They’re preteens through teenagers. So old enough to understand. And our friends, I found others. I found Facebook groups and all kinds to come alongside me, people that I knew in real life and people that I virtually know. I just got help. The Bible talks about as iron sharpens iron being with other believers. And I think that was important for me while remaining married after infidelity. Another way to get through it was just to get support for betrayal trauma. One of my life verses has become II Corinthians 1:3-4, which says all praise to God, the father of our Lord, Jesus Christ. God is our merciful father and the source of all comfort. Comfort In Our Troubles Is Healing Linda: He comforts us in all our troubles, so that we can comfort others. When they are troubled, we can give them the same comfort God has given us. So I found that as I walked in obedience, God just started bringing women into my life. It somehow miraculously was healing for me. Anne: My experience was similar. I was praying so much after my ex’s arrest, and he was given a 14 month probation with a no contact order from a judge. And I knew I needed a separation while. I needed space. And so as I prayed and said, God, should I file for divorce or should I amend the no contact order? Should I allow him to talk to me? I just kept getting this answer to be still, be still. One day I told my mom. Mom, I got an answer. She was like, you did? That’s awesome. Which one is it? Cause I was only praying about these two things, right? Divorce or amend the no contact order. Those are the only two options. And his answer was to start a podcast. And so I told my mom, I’m supposed to start a podcast and she was like, okay. Well, I started podcasting. And a few months after that, my husband at the time, he actually filed for divorce. And so I never had to make that decision. Linda: Isn’t that just like God, I mean, to, to make it so you didn’t have to do it, you know? Anne: Because I committed to my marriage vows and covenants, and knew I couldn’t break them. I had no desire to do that. Either A or B, and God says C Anne: And so I was just waiting on God to let me know what sort of man is he while I figured out what to do after infidelity. Not God, what sort of man is my husband, right? Is he a godly man who can make the changes and repent, or is he not? And I found out he wasn’t. I was heartbroken about it. Linda: Of course, isn’t it so like us to limit ourselves to A and B? I did that so much too, we were going through and we say, Okay, I can do this or I can do this. And I’ve seen as I talk with other women. Well, it’s this or this, and I’m always thinking, or it’s C. You know, there’s a C, there’s a C, D, and E, actually. I feel like that’s a huge part of betrayal trauma, is that we get stuck in A and B. This is, these are my two choices, and there’s almost always, more choices. Anne: Yeah, and I think God was waiting for me to be at the right place where he could show that other choice. Linda: Right. Anne: Now it’s opened up this amazing world for me. And you’ve experienced the same thing, where there are so many women out there who are going through this. And had we not been able to tell the truth, had we not told the truth, we would never have found each other. There’s so much power in truth, maybe enough power to stop this exploitation epidemic that we call pornography. I don’t know how, I don’t know when, but I have to believe it’s possible. God Has Power To Do Miracles Linda: Absolutely. And with the God that we serve, shouldn’t we set crazy goals? I mean, he. He is the creator of heaven and earth. He holds everything together with his power. Why would we limit him to something that wasn’t crazy? You know? Anne: That’s a good point. It is pretty crazy, and I think about like the parting of the Red Sea, right? I mean, it gets a little intense. Linda: This is small compared to that. Anne: Yeah, it seems bigger to me. For some reason, stopping exploitative material seems harder than parting the Red Sea. Linda: And also, don’t you think we know that God, you know, created the world? So therefore he’s in control of nature. Anne: Right. Linda: So, parting the Red Sea, we’re comfortable with that falling within his realm of influence or whatever. But this this is the hearts of people. Anne: Because so many women pray and pray, and pray and pray for their husband’s heart to change. Linda:…

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Is The Common Interpretation Of Biblical Submission In Marriage Wrong? Dec 12, 2023

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The term “Biblical submission” has long been considered an essential principle of a sanctified partnership. But more and more women describe that people use this term to perpetuate a pervasive type of abuse. That all too often goes unnoticed. Perhaps one can ask, is the term “biblical submission” synonymous with spiritual abuse? If you are experiencing spiritual abuse we’d love to see you in a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session. Coach Sharon focuses on exposing incorrect thought patterns that lead to the weaponization of spiritual truths. Sharon, as a survivor of physical, emotional and spiritual abuse, is determined to support women to regain their voice. She wants to help them reframe their value, and maintain their spiritual footing. This is what makes her valuable to our community of women who know this pain. Coach Sharon shares a profound part of her personal story. How Can I Know If Biblical Submission Is Being Used To Abuse Me? Told or made to believe that the wife must submit to the husband, regardless of circumstances Feel that your thoughts, opinion, voice does not matter Told or made to feel that God wants you to forgive no matter what Told or made to feel that God has control over your body, not you Made to believe that you have no choice or decision-making role in your own relationship Defining women’s role in non-compromising terms Coach Sharon describes the scattered, confusing thinking that many victims feel when they experience this type of emotional and spiritual abuse. We understand that when spiritual beliefs collide with abuse, it can be messy, confusing and bewildering. Sometimes you can feel lost or hopeless. At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we are here for you, no matter what you believe or do not believe. We have a strong, supportive, robust and vastly knowledgeable array of amazing coaches here for you—to help you sort through the chaos and find peace. Join Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group today. We get it, we get you. Transcript: Is The Common Interpretation Of Biblical Submission In Marriage Wrong? Anne: I am so excited. Coach Sharon is on today’s episode. She is one of our betrayal trauma coaches here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery. She’s passionate about exposing incorrect thought patterns. That lead to the weaponization of spiritual truths. I’m so excited to talk to her about that today. As a survivor of physical, emotional, and spiritual abuse, Sharon is determined to support women. To reclaim their voice, reframe their value, and maintain their spiritual footing. As a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Coach, Sharon speaks the truth directly, yet compassionately. As she challenges arguments, opinions, and mindsets that seek to undermine a woman’s mental and spiritual health. Welcome, Sharon. Coach Sharon: Thank you, Anne. Anne: Coach Sharon is, of course, one of our Betrayal Trauma Recovery coaches. She coaches several sessions of the Betrayal Trauma Recovery group. So when you attend a group session, you can meet her and interact with her. You can also schedule an individual session with Coach Sharon by going to our website. So Sharon, because you’ve been through this, can you talk about your experience? What did you think happened before you had the word abuse to describe your experience? Coach Sharon: I thought we just had problems. I thought we had problems communicating like every other couple. And if we could just get the tools needed to communicate, that would set us straight. And that for whatever reason, we just kept missing each other. Misunderstanding Abuse & Seeking Help from the Church Anne: So what kinds of things did you do to try and not miss each other? You know, to get help for this? Coach Sharon: We tried a variety of different things. We did the marriage counseling a couple of times, numerous times. But we relied more on pastoral care as a source of support. Some people in our life within the church community offered support to us in terms of counseling. But that always seemed to shine back on me and my direction in terms of my responsibility to satisfy him. So that he would not fall into temptation or submit without question, no matter how it was affecting me. So we have these help and professionals that were trying to support and help. But they were unaware of the varying forms of abuse. Because my husband didn’t assault me physically the whole time, the full length of our marriage. They did not see that I was actually in abuse. So I suffered a lot of harm, because the people in my life who offered support did not have a working knowledge of varying forms of abuse. And expected me to adhere to Biblical submission. And I believe these people meant me good in terms of the support they were trying to offer. I think there was the desire to help, but there wasn’t the knowledge to speak to emotional, psychological and intimate abuse. Fundamentalism and patriarchy fuel abuse. Recognizing Emotional Abuse Anne: My experience was that I was mildly assaulted three times in the seven years I was with my ex. And so I didn’t think that physical abuse was part of my story. He would punch a wall every once in a while. One time he ripped a fence apart with a pickaxe. I mean, that sounds super violent. But for some reason at the time, I don’t know, it seemed too much. Like, he had an anger problem or something. I didn’t perceive it as physical abuse. I also didn’t perceive my relationship as physically abusive. With your physical abuse, was it similar? Where it was just a few incidents, seemingly mild? Even though I realize that tearing a fence apart with a pickaxe isn’t mild now. But from your perspective, did you experience that same type of thing when it came to physical abuse? https://youtube.com/shorts/GcKBBYifx2I Coach Sharon: No, not really. And mine was the exact opposite. So the first 15 years of my marriage were physically abusive. It was pushing, shoving, screaming, slapping. It was very, very physical. In terms of the abuse I was living in, I just saw him as angry. Sometimes things would escalate. I still didn’t see it as physical abuse, even though I was covering up scars with makeup and going to church with scarves around my neck, because, you know, there were scars and so forth there. And I still just saw him as just angry. I didn’t see myself as abused, but then when he stopped hitting me. Because after 15 years, he stopped physically hitting me. And I thought he switched on emotional abuse, because I didn’t realize I was emotionally abused the whole time. This is a powerful truth to know about emotional abuse. The Role Of Betrayal Trauma Recovery Sharon: I knew about Biblical submission, I didn’t know anything about emotional abuse. So when the physical stuff stopped, it confused me because I’m like, he’s not hitting me anymore. So why is it still dangerous? Why do I still feel like I’m in danger and he’s not hitting me? Because I did not understand what emotional abuse was. And I certainly didn’t know anything about coercion. None of that registered for me as abuse. So I thought, okay, well, he stopped hitting you, and you’re just, you’re still spiraling, but I couldn’t understand why. Anne: So, at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we actually do not specialize in physical abuse, right? We specialize in betrayal trauma from infidelity and coercion in the form of a husband’s pornography use. But I will say there is no physical abuse that happens without emotional and psychological abuse also being a component. So if you have experienced physical abuse, you’re also always experiencing emotional and psychological abuse. So at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, if you’re like, “Hey, I need help. I’m going to reach out. I’m going to join the group.” We actually don’t process physical violence in the Betrayal Trauma Recovery groups. We recommend you schedule a session with Coach Renee to actually access resources in your own location. Like perhaps the domestic violence shelter or perhaps the police. So that you can navigate that. Because sometimes reporting that is difficult. I just want to bring that up. So even though we’re talking about physical abuse right now, that’s actually not our specialty here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery. Is Biblical Submission Abusive? Anne: So now we’re going to start talking about Sharon’s experience when physical abuse stopped. I’m going to talk a little about how I experienced emotional and psychological abuse, and how confusing that was. When you got help from clergy and stuff during this time, did they also not recognize that as physical abuse? And during that time, did they also say, “Hey, you just need to be more patient, you need to be more loving, you need to submit more, and he’ll stop pushing you around.” Coach Sharon: The clergy, the church community, told me that not submitting to him caused the emotional stuff. So if I would satisfy him, then that would cure him from falling into temptation. We wouldn’t fight so much. Well, if I would just submit, because submission was a big part of our faith. So I was serious about Biblical submission in terms of what I felt like a woman’s role was. So anytime I would. challenge him. If I had a frowned upon difference of opinion, I had no voice. And that’s what I say. Like, even though there was physical abuse in my circumstance, I think the emotional abuse was harder to deal with. Because first of all, I didn’t recognize it, nor did anyone else. Clergy did not recognize emotional abuse. So long as he didn’t hit me, I had no leg to stand on. So when we would get in counseling sessions and I was trying to explain what was happening, there was no way to explain it. Because it wasn’t a scar. It wasn’t a physical scar. It was something emotional that was happening, happening to me that I didn’t even understand. What If I Am Abused By My Beliefs? Coach Sharon: So I got advice like, you just need to satisfy him, and the marriage bed is undefiled. And you know, whatever happens in the marriage bed is okay. And I’m like, but this is not about intimacy. It was a lot of, well, you have to submit without question, Bibllical submission, without me having a voice, without asking what the arguments or disagreements were about. Like there was smoke, but no one was looking for a fire. It was like she’s yelling and screaming, but no one asked those questions. What’s going on behind the scenes. That was, you know, contributing to our relationship being so chaotic. And I didn’t have a lot of information that I have now. In terms of looking at things like gaslighting, coercive behaviors, and weaponization of scripture. I didn’t understand a lot of the things that Betrayal Trauma Recovery brought to light. So I did not know what was happening to me. So I couldn’t explain it. You can’t explain what you don’t know. I had no ability to have a voice, is what I knew Anne. Biblical submission meant Chuck held all the cards with decision-making. So if I had, something that I wanted to do in terms of parenting. If there was a direction I wanted to take with the kids, or if I felt like something was wrong to do or right to do. I had no voice in that or finances. I had no voice in intimacy. Intimacy had to look a certain way. I had to kiss him in a certain way. Intimacy had to look a certain way or it was wrong. Can Biblical Submission Be Emotional Abuse? Coach Sharon: So there was no voice in terms of me being able to say in what the marriage was like, I had no value. I had no opinion. If I thought it was correct, it wasn’t respected. Because I wasn’t educated enough. He would say things to me, like, you can’t comprehend that. So I had no right to give opinion to anything, because I couldn’t comprehend anything. I couldn’t contribute. Or at least my contributions weren’t supported. Because nothing I brought to the marriage relationship was significant. Therefore, it wasn’t acknowledged. So I wasn’t contributing anything. I had no resources, whatever I brought to the marriage, whether it was finances or whatever. It wasn’t enough to match comparable to him. You know, to what he was bringing in. So there was no voice, there was no value, but I think perhaps the worst thing, I had no God. I think that’s the worst part of it for me, was that I had no God. Because God was always on his side. He always had scripture to prove that God was on his side. So if I was hurt about something and tried to relate to him, I’m harmed. Or I’m being hurt, or I don’t agree, then he would say things to me like, God wants you to forgive. So there was no way I could ever stand up for anything. Because forgiveness was always that variable that always pulled me back into, I have to let it go. If I refused his advances, God said I had no authority over my body. If I had an opinion, then God said I had to obey in everything. He would say, touch not my anointed and do my prophet no harm. Obey because of Biblical submission is required. The Turning Point & Doing What God Wanted Coach Sharon: No harm was one of the scriptures he would continually say, but that made me feel like garbage because there was no ally. I had no ally, even in God. So even having this relationship with God, I felt like there’s no one who understands or can see what I’m going through. Not only does the marriage counselor seem to side with him, but also clergy and pastoral care I was reaching out for. Not only do they see me as chaotic, crazy, and sinful, but even God is not there for me. it was just a very, very hard, hard time in my life in terms of feeling like I could be seen, and slowly I just started to fade. Anne: And knowing you, my guess is, you can correct me if I’m wrong here. That the reason you started to fade is because even if God couldn’t see you, you felt like he couldn’t. You maybe didn’t have the words for that at the time. You love God and wanted to do what God wanted you to do. And so this is a confusing thing, because you love God. You love Jesus. You love the Bible, and here all these things are being used against you. And this is spiritual abuse, but I’m guessing you did not recognize it as spiritual abuse at the time. Coach Sharon: Not at all. I didn’t know that spiritual abuse was a thing. I had never heard of the weaponization of scripture until Betrayal Trauma Recovery. So anytime I heard a scripture, it seemed to validate what he was saying. Yes, the Bible says a woman must submit in everything, so how could I stand up for rights? When Biblical Submission Crosses The Line Into Abuse Coach Sharon: If he was the spiritual head, the Bible says that I had no idea that spiritual abuse even existed. So definitely it left me at a disadvantage to speak up for myself or keep myself safe, because what could I do? I can’t go against God. I would have been willing to stay in that abusive relationship forever if it meant I had to go against my faith. There was no way. Anne: I want to make a point. We have agnostic listeners. We have atheist listeners. So neither of us is trying to proselytize. But we’re just trying to share our own experience. If you’re an atheist, for example, or you’re agnostic or something, we’d love to hear your story from your point of view and the tough times you had. Maybe from family or therapists or maybe secular places where you couldn’t get help. Everyone is welcome here. Anne: So let’s talk about when you started realizing that this isn’t working. So you try this “Biblical submission.” You try to do all the things that this, I will call them abusive clergy, not that they understood they were being abusive. But they were sort of abusing you by proxy. Your abuser manipulated them, so they took his side. When did you start to recognize, like, wait a minute, I have loved, I have served, I’m forgiving. I’m doing all the things. And Biblical submission isns’t working. Like our marriage isn’t getting any better. He’s told me, “Hey, you just need to forgive, and things would be okay.” But they’re not okay. When did you recognize that that ty…

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Here’s The Best Songs About Healing From Trauma Dec 05, 2023

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If you’ve experienced your husband’s lies, infidelity, manipulation or any other type of abuse, here are the best songs about healing from trauma. To discover if you’ve experienced any one of the 19 types of emotional abuse, take our free emotional abuse quiz. Here’s the list below… Betrayal Trauma Healing Playlist on APPLE MUSIC Infidelity Healing Playlist on SPOTIFY Betrayal Trauma Healing Playlist on YOUTUBE Songs About Healing From Trauma Because music has a unique way to help us process emotions, find strength, and heal. So if you’re navigating trauma from your husband’s betrayal, lies, and infidelity, these 71 songs will empower you on your healing journey. 1. She Used To Be Mine by Sara Bareilles A heartfelt ballad that beautifully captures the pain of losing yourself. Secondly, the strength to rediscover who you are. 2. Try by Colbie Caillat This song reminds you to focus on inner beauty and self-worth. Because others manipulation is intended to exploit you. This song will help you do what’s right for you. 3. mad woman by Taylor Swift Of course, reveals the anger and frustration systemic misogyny causes. 4. Who Says by Selena Gomez & the Scene Above all, a reminder that you’re amazing just as you are. 5. Girl Can’t Be Herself by Alicia Keys Consequently, this anthem of authenticity urges you to celebrate your identity in a world full of expectations. 6. Surface Pressure by Jessica Darrow Feeling overwhelmed? This song from Encanto commiserates while reinforcing your strength. 7. Just Be Held by Casting Crowns Altogether a powerful reminder to lean into your faith and trust the process of healing, even through dark times. 8. Rescue by Lauren Daigle For when you feel hopeless, this song promises that you are never too lost to be found or supported. 9. U Matter by Bonner Family (feat. Aaliyah Rose, Yahosh & Daysha) Above all a heartfelt reassurance that you are valued and loved, no matter what. 10. Never Alone by Lauren Daigle Overall an uplifting song that assures you there’s always someone with you, walking alongside you in your struggles. 11. Walk Me Home by P!nk For the moments when you feel lost, this song offers a comforting push to keep going. 12. Come Alive (Dry Bones) by Lauren Daigle Also a motivational anthem encouraging you to rise and rebuild after facing destruction. 13. Million Reasons (Andrelli Remix) by Lady Gaga A beautifully raw track about searching for hope and purpose when everything feels impossible. 14. With or Without You by Boyce Avenue & Manuel Costa This poignant cover brings depth and clarity to themes of letting go and moving forward. Songs about healing from trauma motivate us. 15. Sit Still, Look Pretty by Daya A bold reminder that you are more than an exploiters expectations—you’re strong and capable of building your own future. 16. Quiet by MILCK An empowering song about finding your voice during hardship, and refusing to stay silent about your pain. 17. Ain’t Your Mama by Jennifer Lopez This sassy anthem serves as a wake-up call that he’s a full grown man and capable of doing basic tasks. 18. What About Us by P!nk In essence a raw exploration of broken trust and the resilience it takes to stand back up after betrayal trauma. 19. I Never by Jessica Simpson Exploring the pain after betrayal, this track leans into themes of regret, growth, and healing. Songs About Healing From Trauma 20-39 20. Not Ready to Make Nice by The Chicks For those moments when you’re not ready to forgive, good for you. 21. Breadwinner by Kacey Musgraves Outlines exactly what happened when he targeted you for exploitation. 22. My Own Hero by Andy Grammer This anthem will help you be your own hero. Because songs about healing from trauma encourage us. 23. Superheroes by The Script An ode to all who’ve fought battles unseen, this song is an inspiring reminder that your struggles have shaped you into a strong and capable woman. 24. Sister Suffragette by Mary Poppins Cast Above all this classic from Mary Poppins celebrates women breaking barriers—a reminder of the systemic, historic misogyny we’re all standing against. 25. This Is Me by Keala Settle & The Greatest Showman Ensemble An unapologetic anthem for self-acceptance, this track encourages you to own your scars and march forward bravely. Healing from trauma often involves accepting and reclaiming who you are. 26. Let It Go (Bearson Remix) by Bearson Summarizes the futility of trying to work with an emotionally abusive man. 27. If You’re Over Me (Key Remix) by Years & Years This upbeat remix tackles moving on from the trauma caused by his abuse. So it’s a perfect track to dance through the healing process and regain your clarity. Songs about healing from trauma lift us. 28. Say Something by Pentatonix Hauntingly beautiful, this song captures the heartache of losing love. Because sometimes, healing starts with acknowledging the hurt and letting yourself feel. 29. Say Something (Zac Samuel Remix) by Karen Harding This remix switches gears, turning vulnerability into a more energizing track. As a result, it’s a reminder that healing from hurt doesn’t mean staying in darkness forever. 30. Ugly Heart by G.R.L This tune encourages you to stand tall after dealing with someone who didn’t treat you right. It’s a reminder that what really counts is someone’s actions – not their words or their image. 31. Elastic Heart by Sia feat. The Weeknd & Diplo Sia’s raw voice and poignant lyrics bring life to the resilience we hold within ourselves. This is the perfect anthem for women rebuilding after the trauma of her husband’s emotional abuse and infidelity. 32. IDGAF by Dua Lipa Make no mistake—this confident bop is about setting boundaries and taking no nonsense. It’s liberating, especially if you’re overcoming patterns of emotional manipulation. 33. Irreplaceable by Beyoncé “To the left, to the left…” It’s easy to find another exploitative, abusive man. As Beyoncé describes so perfectly in this song. 34. Praying (Oliver Nelson Remix) by Kesha This remixed track keeps the deep emotional power of Kesha’s original song while adding dance beats to move that trauma out of your body. 35. We Are Never Ever Getting Back Together by Taylor Swift A lighthearted, catchy classic for anyone leaving a toxic cycle behind. Sometimes cutting ties is the first step to reclaiming your happiness. 36. See You When You’re 40 by Dido This reflective tune is a great way to process the fact that some men will never get it. 37. Into the Unknown by Idina Menzel & AURORA With adventurous melodies, this song captures the boldness it takes to step into uncharted territory and begin your next chapter of growth. 38. Castles (Sam Feldt Remix) by Freya Ridings This remix turns Freya’s ballad of trauma recovery into a dance song. It’s about rebuilding yourself piece by piece—and celebrating the process. 39. Fight Song by Rachel Platten An undeniably iconic anthem for overcoming adversity, this song helps reignite your inner fire and reminds you of your strength. Songs About Healing From Trauma 40-59 40. Actually Happy by BLU EYES This fresh, candid tune helps you reflect on how it feels to reach a place of true contentment after hardship—real and raw. 41. The Man by Taylor Swift This bold and witty song challenges societal misogyny. It’s a great track for any women stepping into her power unapologetically. 42. Run the World (Girls) by Beyoncé Beyoncé’s fierce anthem is a celebration of female empowerment and resilience. Perfect for reminding you that you’re unstoppable. 43. Born for This by Andy Grammer This inspiring song motivates you to push through difficult times and remember you’re meant for greatness. Perfect for your revenge montage:). 44. Show Yourself by Idina Menzel & Evan Rachel Wood Healing means stepping into your authenticity. This gentle ballad encourages self-exploration and acceptance. 45. Waiting On a Miracle by Stephanie Beatriz This heartfelt track from Encanto captures the feeling of waiting for change and validation. It speaks to anyone who’s praying for a miracle, but feels unseen. 46. 9 to 5 by Dolly Parton This classic celebrates women who’ve been exploited and victimized by men. One of the best songs about healing from trauma in the workplace. 47. Short Skirt/Long Jacket by CAKE Quirky and empowering, this song outlines the way a healthy man would view an awesome, responsible woman. 48. That’s My Girl by Fifth Harmony A powerful, uplifting track that reassures you that you’ve got this. It’s all about resilience and cheering yourself on, wherever you are in your healing process. 49. Me Too by Meghan Trainor In a nutshell: whoever you are, the best person to be is YOU. 50. Bad Reputation by Joan Jett Joan Jett’s unapologetic classic is about refusing to care what others think of you. It’s a great reminder to keep moving forward, even if others don’t understand your choices. 51. Rebel Girl by Bikini Kill This fierce feminist anthem celebrates woman empowerment, community, and inner strength. It’s perfect for finding strength and community. 52. You Gotta Be by Des’ree This soulful track highlights how ridiculous society’s expectations of women are. Ironically, you’re already all these things. 53. Raising Hell by Kesha feat. Big Freedia A high-energy anthem that’s all about rejecting spiritual abuse. 54. She’d Say by Andy Grammer feat. Ladysmith Black Mambazo A reminder to hold on to the wisdom of women who have come before you. 55. Invincible by Kelly Clarkson Kelly Clarkson delivers power and inspiration in this song, celebrating overcoming pain and trauma. A classic song about healing from trauma. 56. Scars to Your Beautiful by Alessia Cara An emotional pop song that challenges societal beauty standards. So it’ll encourage you to embrace self-love and find beauty in being you. 57. Unpretty by TLC This iconic track is about confronting insecurities and rejecting external pressures to look or act in a certain way. In fact a deeply impactful anthem for self-acceptance. 58. Most Girls by Hailee Steinfeld Hailee delivers a message of unity and empowerment for women. Also it reinforces the idea that every woman’s path to healing and strength is valid. 59. What Else Can I Do by Diane Guerrero & Stephanie Beatriz This upbeat track from Encanto reminds you to celebrate your talents and strengths. Additionally its hopeful message resonates with anyone looking to explore their potential. Songs About Healing From Trauma 60-71 60. Love Myself by Andy Grammer This uplifting tune focuses on prioritizing self-love and recognizing your own value. So it’s a great anthem for days you need a little encouragement. 61. I Belong to Me by Jessica Simpson A gentle yet powerful reminder about self-belief and independence after difficulty or loss. 62. No Man Is Big Enough for My Arms by Ibeyi This song draws from powerful historical speeches to inspire women to feel confident. 63. Bruises by Train feat. Ashley Monroe A tender track about opening up about emotional scars to safe people. 64. All of You by Stephanie Beatriz, Olga Meredi, Encanto Cast A beautiful song with uplifting lyrics lets you know you’re not alone. You have a community of women who know exactly what you’re going through. 65. Better Boat by Kenny Chesney feat. Mindy Smith Also a song about learning and growing through life’s challenges, offering hope and encouragement for better moments ahead. 66. When I Get Where I’m Going by Brad Paisley feat. Dolly Parton Since this heartfelt country track offers solace to anyone navigating trauma, it focuses on peace and hope for the future. 67. Best Is Yet To Come by Sheppard A bright and optimistic track that reminds you there’s so much good waiting ahead. 68. Brighter Days by Emeli Sandé This soulful song is one of the best songs about healing from trauma. Because it reminds us that even the hardest moments pass, and healing brings brighter days into focus. 69. Sorry Not Sorry by Demi Lovato Bold lyrics and powerful delivery remind you that setting boundaries and focusing on your own success is the best form of revenge. 70. I’d Rather Be Me by Auli’i Cravalho, Cast of Mean Girls A great reminder to prioritize your well-being. 71. The Hardest Part by Olivia Dean Olivia Dean’s heartfelt voice captures the pain of letting go and the courage it takes to move forward. So this track helps you find hope in moments of emotional struggle. Bonus Track. Like Everyone She Knows by James Taylor With its tender and poetic lyrics, this song serves as a gentle reminder of the beauty in vulnerability. Additionally it’s a comforting piece that lets you reflect, feel deeply, and heal at your own pace. Healing Trauma Through Music The stories told in these songs may or may not mirror your story. So take what you like and leave the rest. Healing from trauma means doing what’s right for YOU. Think a track fits this list I missed? Then comment below to share your recommendations! If you need support, we’re here for you. Attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session TODAY. Transcript: 71 Of The Best Songs About Healing From Trauma Anne: It’s just me today. So I’m excited to share the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Music Playlist with you. Although this is my personal playlist. It’s 71 of the best songs about healing from trauma. I’ve made it available on Apple Music, Spotify and YouTube. So the links are above, just click on the link and go directly to the playlist in your favorite music app. Another way to get the links is to go to my website scroll to the bottom. There’s a form called join our community. Enter your email, and you’ll receive a link to this playlist. Eventually, it’s not the first email that goes out, but you can keep an eye out for it. So that’s another way to get this playlist. I wanted to take you through why I chose some of these songs and the order. So it starts with us, trying to be the person he wants us to be. We’re trying to be that person that society wants us to be. And then it moves into like, are we even loved? Does God love us? Then it moves into, he is abusive and then anger stage. And then near the end of the playlist, there’re songs that are sort of accepting the situation. Music can be the best support for betrayal trauma. So that’s the general feeling of the playlist. It is a long playlist. There’s like 40 hours of music, maybe, and so just take what you like and get rid of the rest. Only hold on to the songs that you enjoy. Personal Music Preferences Anne: So I interpret these songs my own way, with my experience, my viewpoint, and where I’m coming from. And so if any of these songs are offensive to anyone, I sincerely apologize. That was not my intent. And if that is the case, please skip over it. I would appreciate your grace. It’s not intended to offend anyone. I’m offering it as like a gift of love. So I appreciate your patience. I found listening to songs about healing from trauma really helped me. Even If you’re like, this song is dumb. I’m kind of embarrassed, because I don’t know if all of you like dance music. I tend to gravitate more toward the sort of techno version of things. Because I like dancing, walking, and moving. It can be vital to find your voice after emotional abuse. I really love exercise. So, let me take you through why I chose some of these songs and why I put them in the order I did. So at almost the top of the playlist is a song called mad woman by Taylor Swift. I’m going to share some of the lyrics. Songs For Different Emotions Anne: So the chorus goes, “Every time you call me crazy, I get more crazy. What about that? And when you say I seem angry, I get more angry. There’s nothing like a mad woman. What a shame she went mad. No one likes a mad woman. You made her like that, and you poke that bear till her claws come out and you’ll find something to wrap your noose around.” Basically, he’s trying to make her seem crazy, so people can say, yeah, she is crazy. See? That one’s good. Listening to songs abo…

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I Want To Leave My Emotionally Abusive Husband – Karen’s Story Nov 28, 2023

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Have you ever asked, “Is it wrong if I want to leave my emotionally abusive husband?” Here are some things to consider. To discover if you’re emotionally abused, take our FREE emotional abuse quiz. 1. What would you tell someone else if they asked? Pretend like you’re having a conversation with someone else. Listen to your own story as if you’re someone else. What would you say to this “other” person? Would she be wrong for wanting to leave an emotionally abusive husband? 2. What would a domestic abuse expert say? Since most therapists, clergy, and almost everybody else doesn’t understand the ins and outs of domestic abuse. Especially when it comes to emotional and psychological abuse, they’re not the right people to ask whether your desire to leave your emotionally abusive husband is appropriate. Anne Blythe, M.Ed, Producer & Host of the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast helps women assess their level of emotional safety everyday. At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, emotional safety is the top priority. So rather than asking yourself if it’s wrong to leave or even if you should leave. The team at Betrayal Trauma Recovery will support you in your journey to discover what it means to be emotionally safe. And to take steps to become emotionally safe, in whatever way works for you. 3. Who told you it’s wrong to leave an emotionally abusive husband? If you’re wondering if it’s wrong to leave an emotionally abusive husband, consider why you’re even asking this question in the first place. Does the question even make sense? Who has told you or where have you picked up the idea that it could be wrong to leave an emotionally abusive relationship? Anne wrote The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Meditations so that women can look inside themselves to sort out their own thoughts. And separate from the society scripting in their heads to determine what is the best course of action. Start listening to your intuition, rather than people who don’t understand what it’s like to live in your situation. 4. Consider asking, “How do I establish emotional safety?” Instead of, “Can I get to emotional safety?” One thing’s for sure, all women can get to emotional safety. So it’s important to focus on HOW. Anne developed The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop for this reason – to help victims get to emotional safety. Whether you’re fully committed to separating from your husband, or have gone back and forth on this painful decision, consider these tips and strategies Anne and Karen discuss in the transcript below. Transcript: I Want To Leave My Emotionally Abusive Husband Anne: I have Karen DeArmond Gardner on today’s episode. She wrote the book, Hope for Healing from Domestic Abuse. Thirty years, four months, and two days after she said, “I do,” Karen left an abusive marriage. She walks with women as they learn to reframe what is normal, real, and necessary. So women can rediscover who God is and who they are; moving from hopelessness to hope. Her passions include Jesus, her husband, healing, and coffee. Welcome, Karen! Karen: Thank you for having me on, Anne. I am so excited about this. Anne: Obviously, from her bio, Karen is a woman of faith. So am I. If you are agnostic or atheist or anything else, you are welcome here. We’re going to talk about our faith from our own perspective. Karen and I don’t share the same faith tradition per se. Everyone is always welcome. And also, if you come on the podcast, you’re always welcome to share from your own faith or non-faith perspective. Anne: Karen, can you tell me a little about your story? Karen: Oh, gosh. Where do you start in your story? When you left or when you got into it? As you shared already, I stayed 30 years in an abusive marriage. But at 20 years old, I did not know that. He was charming, kind, and funny. He listened to me, I told him secrets I had never told anybody in my entire life. And I had no idea who he was or that I would eventually want to leave my emotionally abusive husband.. I Recognized Red Flags, But Rationalized Karen: Were there red flags? Yes, do you pay attention to them? You do, but because he’s this guy over here, he’s always telling me how amazing I am, which can be covert emotional abuse. So it must be like a one-off. We got married after two and a half months of dating, and I had no idea what I was stepping into or might need to leave my emotionally abusive husband. I noticed things changed, but I thought it was just marriage and getting used to each other. Because I didn’t have anything to compare it to. I didn’t have a frame to put it next to. My mom sought a divorce in the sixties because my father was abusive. Then the man she was married to while I was growing up was an alcoholic. So I didn’t have anything to compare to what is normal and what’s not normal. Anne: So many women have that situation. I remember telling my internal medicine, family practice doctor, I don’t know what is okay. Because I’ve never been married to anyone else. Everybody tells you marriage is hard, you have to work hard at it, and you have to be loving and patient. We get really educated about how to love, serve, forgive, be kind, listen, and all that stuff. We get very little education about abuse. So it gets confusing. Karen: Honestly, nobody talks about that. Every pre-marriage should contain a section on abusive behaviors, and it should be done separately. Because she’s not going to admit that in front of him, or vice-versa. But we’re still not doing that even in this day and age. Nobody can imagine someone everybody likes who’s so kind, funny, and all these things has this dark side to them. He Slowly Revealed His Dark Side: The Reality of Abuse Karen: I wasn’t looking for the fairy tale; I wasn’t even looking to get married. Instead of a fairy tale, I got a nightmare. Some guys, as soon as you say “I do,” immediately turn. They strip off all the masks, and the monster is there. Some guys are really slow at it. Ours was slow and periodic. It was mostly verbal, emotional abuse, and psychological, but I didn’t know that. I had not idea I needed to heal from emotional abuse. Most of what I know about what happened to me is after the fact. After I decided to leave my emotionally abusive husband. I’ve been out now, coming up, it’ll be 19 years. I still have moments where I’ll read something on social media, and I’m like, “Whoa, wow, yes.” So there’s all these tactics. There are so many. But even I am still surprised at what he did and how abusive it was. Anne: I think the longer we’re out of it, we realize how intentional it was too, which is heartbreaking. https://youtube.com/shorts/RLLLzEq6DTg Karen: It is and I can’t tell you how many women I’ve talked to that say, “Oh, he didn’t do it on purpose.” “Yeah, he really did.” “No, no, he wouldn’t do that. He’s just had this and that…” You can hear the cognitive dissonance going on in their brain. It’s part of that healing process of getting over the lies, we think they are true. Because he’s said it so many times and for so long. Those thoughts have taken over because he’s ingrained it with behaviors, reactions and punishments. It is so reinforced that we think he couldn’t help it. It’s hard to admit that this man you shared your bed with. Raised children with, and said he loved you. Actually purposely married you so he would have the freedom to abuse you. Making The Decision to Leave My Emotionally Abusive Husband Anne: I think it also comes from societal scripting, and some religious scripting. It almost confirms the abusive gaslighting they’re telling you. So then you go to a therapist, or a clergy, or a friend, and they unknowingly confirm to you this false reality. That, “Yeah, you should be submitting, that’s what a good wife would do.” Or whatever they’re saying that keeps you stuck and you don’t realize what’s happening. Karen: Sometimes you don’t know that you have an option. Which, to some people, sounds a little crazy. But the reality is that when you’re in the middle of it, you feel like you don’t have any options. That there’s no way to leave my emotionally abusive husband. Anne: You also have good intentions. You care about your children and your family. If clergy or someone else says to you, “If you care about your family, you need to forgive.” Or, “If you follow Jesus, then you need to submit, forgive, and pray for him.” Or advice that doesn’t help women get to emotional safety. So you’re around 50 years old at the time, and you’re thinking, “I need to leave my emotionally abusive husband, to get to emotional and psychological safety.” You see it as starting over, which is scary, because people don’t want to start over. They’ve already invested 30 years into this relationship. So thinking, “Am I going to put 30 years in the trash and start over?” Can you talk about your decision to leave and the concept of starting over? How that either can help victims, “Oh, I get a fresh start.” Or it can actually keep them stuck, because they’re like, “I don’t want to start over. I’ve already invested too much.” Starting Over, I Face New Challenges Karen: I think starting over is the part that doesn’t even enter your brain. It didn’t enter my mind. I couldn’t even think that far ahead about what would happen. Six months before leaving was when I realized he wasn’t worth it anymore. This man clearly cares nothing about me. It still took six months to leave, because I didn’t know how to do that. And I was isolated from my family. It just happened that my mom came in December for my daughter’s graduation from college. It was that week before Christmas, as everything came to a head. I don’t know how I decided to leave my emotionally abusive husband. But that’s all that I could think of. I was 51 when I left. When I landed in Texas about three weeks later, I couldn’t even imagine life any different than it was. I felt like a little kid who someone took all the fences down, and I was afraid to move. Like there was dangerous traffic all around me. I was so stuck and terrified, and went from terrified to leave my abusive husband – I knew what he was capable of – to now, what do I do? But I don’t know how to do this.” I was with my family. My sister would drive me places and help me make decisions. My brother was helping me because I couldn’t think straight. The thought of starting over seemed overwhelming. I didn’t use that terminology until I got a job. About two and a half months after I left, I got a new job here in Texas that changed my thinking, because suddenly I found these people that absolutely adored me. After I Leave My Emotionally Husband, I Can See Possibilities For My Life Karen: They actually liked me. That was a big deal. Over time, as I was away from his abuse, I could feel my mind clearing. As I was working at learning a new job, because I was in four months of training, I could feel the shift slowly happen. All of a sudden, I could see possibilities, and it was terrifying. After I leave my emotionally abusive husband. I just literally felt like I was just bumbling around in the dark. Up until this point, I had part-time or inconsequential jobs. He wanted me to work, but I always worked under my capabilities. Every job I had was never to my capabilities. Now I have a job where I feel myself growing, learning, expanding my mind, and starting to see this is so different. It’s hard to put words to what I felt then, because I had no idea who I was. When I came out of the marriage, I was really mousy and quiet. I’m not that way. That’s not who I am. I am not mousy or quiet. I can over talk. And I can be too loud when I get excited. It’s only been in the last few years that the Lord has given me glimpses of moments in my early married life. Where, because of his reaction, I learned over time not to be loud, or talk, and not give my opinion. There were times when he would come at me with emotional abuse and I would fight back emotionally or verbally. I thought I always appeased him, and I didn’t. The Lord had to open up my mind to help me remember, he made you this way. This is not who you were. It has helped me accept where I am today, if that makes any sense. Rediscovering Myself After I Leave My Emotionally Husband Anne: There is a population of victims who were quiet before, so they’re like, “I was always quiet.” They get a little confused, but you have to realize that does not cause abuse. There are other women who are quiet, who aren’t abused. Also, some women who were quiet and maybe calm became more irritated or upset because he was abusive. They’re thinking they are this angry, bitter person, because that’s what he’s told her. When really, she was just trying to protect herself. The different ways victims perceive themselves, and perceive their life before they decide to “leave my emotionally abusive husband.” It takes a while to sort it out. I also think it takes some distance from that person. You’ve been exposed to their gaslighting for so long. When you’re away from it, you can process it a little better and say, “Wait a minute, yeah, I did become louder because I realized this wasn’t safe.” Or, “I became quieter because that was the way I was trying to survive.” There are all different ways women react to it. Karen: I totally agree. There is no cookie cutter how we respond when they bait us. First of all, we’re not all the same. We are all different in how we react. We all have our own way. It’s our own personality. It seems like abusers read the same manual and use the same tactics. But every abuser has their own nuance in how they do things. I know there are all these other terms that we can use, but I purposely use the word abuser. In reality, what we’re dealing with is someone who is abusive. Abusers Want To Affect You Karen: The point is abusers want to squish our personalities, and they want to shift us. Some abusers get off on the fact that when you react, when you fight back, they can go, “Oh, look at what you’re doing.” They always point it back. Anne: They love that they affected you. Karen: Oh yes. Anne: For good, “Oh, I’m so grateful. Thank you.” Or for bad, “You’re stressing me out. You’re a terrible person.” They love the ability to affect you. That’s what they love. They don’t love you. They love the power, like, “Ooh, I have the power to affect her.” You were around 50, and I’ll be 50 sooner rather than later, so it’s feeling very young to me right now. A lot of women think, “I can’t do this now, my time has passed, and I’m too old to get to safety. This has been my life for too long.” Really quick, I had an abusive boyfriend in high school. He wanted me to marry him. And he told me that if I didn’t marry him right then, I would miss my chance. Because nobody gets married after 22. He’s like, “There are these three phases: right after high school, right after everybody gets home from their missions, and then right after another time. If you miss this phase, you will never get married. So we’ve got to get married now.” In his mind, it was the third phase. I said, “No, thank you.” When we talk about obstacles, so many women think, “it’s too late for me to have a peaceful life. It’s too late for me to get to safety.” Or it’s too late to leave my emotionally abusive husband. What are some obstacles? Can you talk about that in terms of starting over? Overcoming Obstacles After I Leave My Emotionally Abusive Husband Karen: I would love to, because for the first time in my life, I had a career, and it was an amazing career. I learned all that I was capable of. It’s been almost 19 years, I’ll be 70 next month, and my life just continues to grow. I’ve discovered God loves people, and it’s not about our age. Look at all these people he used when they were older in the scriptures, like Moses, Abraham, and Sarah. That means nothing to God, because it’s never too late. It’s never too late to leave, even if you’ve been married 40 or 50 years. Marriage… you will go through hard things, but it…

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When My New Husband Is Abusive Too – Chandra’s Second Marriage Nov 21, 2023

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You don’t have anything wrong with you if you left an emotionally abusive marriage and your new husband is abusive too. This episode follows Chandra’s Story:This Is How Abusers Manipulate Their Victims – Chandra’s First MarriagePart 2: When My New Husband Is Abusive Too – Chandra’s Second Marriage (THIS EPISODE) When women experience a second abusive husband, they may blame themselves: I’ve already been through this once, how could I make this mistake again? What is it about me that attracts me to abusers? Why didn’t I see the signs sooner? Why didn’t I do this, this, and this differently? Here’s the truth: you are not to blame for his behaviors when your new husband is abusive too. Blaming yourself for abuse by another man is needless torture. You have been through enough – please exercise compassion for yourself rather than judgment. Many women, including Chandra, experience embarrassment and shame when they realize their new husband is also abusive. This shame and embarrassment may deter them from seeking safety early on, believing that with enough grit and determination, they can make the marriage work. BTR.ORG Is Here When Your New Husband Is Abusive Too Victims of abuse who have a new husband may feel discouraged, embarrassed, and hopeless. Sometimes, victims express feeling silly or pathetic for having entered into a second marriage. There is nothing wrong with wanting to be loved. In fact, this is a normal part of being human. What is NOT normal, is being abusive. You are not the problem here – the abuser is the problem. If you are experiencing trauma from a second husband, please join our BTR.ORG Group Sessions today. You deserve a healing community of loving, compassionate women who understand. Transcript: When My New Husband Is Abusive Too Anne: Chandra, a member of our community, is back on today’s episode. Last week, she told the story about her emotionally abusive first husband. This week, we’ll talk about her second husband, her new husband is abusive too. If you haven’t heard about her first marriage, go back and listen to last week first, and then join us here. Chandra, welcome back. Chandra: I’m still wrapping my head around grace for myself for not knowing before that my new husband was abusive. And getting into that situation again. I feel like, why didn’t I see the red flags after what I’d been through? Maybe it was too soon? I hadn’t learned the lessons I needed before another relationship. And I thought I was ready, but I must not have been right. Anne: I’m going to disagree with you, sorry. Chandra: That’s okay. Anne: It’s not your fault that someone abuses you. There are so many women who don’t know much about abuse, or who don’t know how to recognize red flags. And they marry great guys. Chandra: Yeah. Anne: Because the guy’s not abusive. Chandra: Right. Anne: It’s never your fault if someone intentionally deceives you. It’s never your fault if someone intentionally grooms you, and you don’t know. Those who’ve been through it tend to know more, I would say, than the average person. The average person who marries a healthy person doesn’t know about it. Their husbands didn’t abuse them. Anne: Even though you went through an abusive situation, this second abuser abused differently than before. I remember talking to a friend who was in a horrific abusive situation. And I was newly married. I went to her and said, “Hey, you know, what’s happening with my husband? Is this kind of what you experienced?” Early Signs Of Trouble & A Vulnerable Time Anne: She said, “No, your husband’s amazing compared to my guy.” Right, and so she thought my husband was healthy and great. She’s like, yeah, but nobody’s perfect. But like, man, he’s so much better. And so I was like, Oh, okay, well then he’s not abusive because she would know. Because she’s been in an abusive situation. But that’s not necessarily the case, because abusers know how to groom people. They can groom you in a way that “works for you.” So I just don’t think it’s ever our fault. However, I think we learn a lot of skills along the way. Chandra: Oh my, yeah. Anne: So saying that, I just want to say no. Not your fault. Chandra: Yeah, that helps. It’s nice to hear that. It’s just frustrating to have spent another eight years with somebody that was also not a great partner and hurt me again. And especially after all the promises. Like, oh, your first husband did you wrong, and I’ll take care of you and never let that happen to you blah, blah, blah. So, I met my second husband at work. He was not working in the same company. But he was in sales and would visit and attempt to get me to specify his company’s equipment on projects. He was smooth, Mr. Debonair, a lot of fun and interesting. I felt super vulnerable too, and had a broken heart, and wanted to be loved. And I was vulnerable, and I think sometimes these men can see that. These men look for somebody that is maybe compliant. And it’s a bit weaker and easy to control. Visiting Back & Forth Without Kids Anne: I don’t know about that either. Some of them are looking for someone who will manage them. Someone who’s strong. Someone who can organize things and do stuff so they can just kind of coast along. So I also wouldn’t say that’s your fault for everything. You could say, oh, I was weak. So that’s what he was looking for. There’s also very kind and loving men who might be like, oh, she’s weak, so I need to protect her. So I just don’t think again that it’s your fault. Every time you tell me there’s some reason, I’m gonna say no, no, no. It is not your fault that your second husband is abusive too. Chandra: Definitely. I’m a high functioning woman. I make stuff happen. I do it. Probably both husbands saw that and went, I want me some of that, right? I want that high functioning woman looking after my life, because let me tell you, I did that. I took care of things. What’s interesting, and this will just tie into my story a bit about my second husband. Is that I would visit him or he would visit me when we didn’t live in the same city, when my kids were visiting their dad. And so I wish I had seen him more around my kids. If I had, I probably would not have married him, because he didn’t want my kids around. I didn’t discover that until after I married him and moved in with him. And whenever I visited him, his house was spotless. Okay, it looked great, his life looked great. He was looking after things. It all looked good. It didn’t look like my new husband would also be abusive. The Disappointing Reality Of Living Together Chandra: I will tell you that the day I moved in, I hadn’t visited for three months. And I am pretty sure he didn’t pick up a single dishcloth. He did not pick up a broom. He did not touch the bathroom. It was a pigsty the day we moved in. It was late at night, and we got there, and my kids needed baths. I remember 10 o’clock at night cleaning the bathroom, thinking, what have I gotten into? This guy wants me to do all the cleaning. He wants me to do everything around here. I was never able to get him to pick up a broom or vacuum to help. From then on, he said, well, you’re the one with all the kids, so the mess is mostly yours. You need to clean up. Anne: Was he a member of your church? Chandra: No, he wasn’t. Anne: And I’m not saying anything about, if he would have been, it would have been good, no, no, no. Chandra: I remember thinking when we dated, should I date someone from my faith community? Well, first of all, the pickings were pretty slim where I was living. I lived in a remote northern community north of Toronto, not a lot of choice up there, I would say. There’s some good people up there, but I thought to myself, does it matter? I married somebody who checked all the boxes I was taught to look for. And look what happened, he was also abusive. So do you think I care if he’s a member of my faith community? Realizing The Extent Of The Problem Anne: That’s exactly how I feel now. Yeah, I do not care. Chandra: I did not care. I just wanted to be with someone who would love me and treat me right. And I thought that’s what I had, but quickly after moving in with him. I realized I was in another abusive relationship. The first Monday morning that we woke up to go to work, he woke up late, his alarm hadn’t gone off or something. And he looked at me and said, “Why didn’t you get me up?” And I was like, it’s my job to do that? What have you been doing all this time that you’ve been living alone? It’s not my job to get you up in the morning. And I thought, oh my gosh. He would come home at 10 o’clock at night, and I would not hear from him, and I didn’t know where he was. And he would come in, and I would say, where were you? And why didn’t you let me know where you were? Like, you’re married, you should tell me where you are. He felt entitled to go wherever he wanted and do what he wanted, and he didn’t have to answer to me. Anne: Had he been married before? Chandra: No, and he was a few years younger than me. But his maturity was well below what he had presented. Like, he got into fights with my 10 year old son. And behaved in ways similar to my son. As if his emotional development was arrested at age 10. Leaving A Second Abusive Marriage Chandra: It was strange. I started noticing things about him. He had no empathy for my kids, and he did not treat them well. It didn’t take me long before I realized I needed to leave. And I actually moved out about four years after we moved in with him. I mean, I tried for a while to make things work. But I knew right away I was not in a good situation. But I’ll tell you the shame of making a mistake. That’s what kept me in that situation much longer than I needed to be. That’s one thing I wish I could change, is just, you know, don’t worry about what people think, that I got myself into another abusive marriage. If it’s not right, do something about it. I know that’s not easy. It’s not that simple. I know that. But if I could change anything, that’s one thing I would change. He had an affair, in the process of me preparing to move out, and I was not expecting that. I mean, we didn’t get along that great. And I was upset with him for his behaviors and the way he treated my kids. But I wasn’t expecting him to do that. But I recognized the signs right away. And a week after I moved out, I had gone to his place to do my laundry. Because the place I’d moved into was getting a new washer dryer, and it wasn’t there yet. So I went over to his place and lo and behold, there’s a vehicle sitting in the driveway I didn’t recognize. it was unlocked. My New Husband Is also Abusive: Confronting The Affair Chandra: So I’m the wife. I’m going to open the door and look in the glove box. And it was a woman’s I. D. in there. And I looked her up on Facebook, and I went into the house. He had taken all the pictures of us, and any evidence that I existed, and swept it into drawers. Basically, he hid every possible evidence that he had a wife. I realized, oh, he’s out on a date with this woman, and he plans to bring her back here. Because I don’t see any of my stuff out, I hadn’t taken everything. I thought this was going to be a short-term separation. I didn’t know. So I actually looked her up on Facebook, and I sent her a message. And I said, did you know that the man you’re on a date with is married? You know, I’m at the house, I’m going to do my laundry, and I’m not confrontational, but I’d like you to come and get your car and go home. And they stayed out for a while after that. https://youtube.com/shorts/xZBJeXvdU4o I know they’d seen my messages, and there was a bit of back and forth. And I just said, I’m just here waiting. I’m not going to hurt anybody. I’m not going to come out and yell at anybody, but I just want to talk to you. I said that to my husband. Chandra: So he came in and I had evidence and all he could do was lie and lie and lie. Dealing With Betrayal & Lies Chandra: He was just lying his face off, trying to hide it. I’ve got the evidence that you’re with this woman, and messaged her the next day. Because even then, all the lies were shaking me up. And I thought, what if it’s not what it looks like. So I actually messaged her again the next day and asked her for details. She said he lied and was separated for six months. I had literally just moved out. And I told her we were supposed to work on the relationship. We’ve been married for this long. And we struggle over getting along because of the kids. She had no idea he had lied to her, and made it sound like the relationship was over many months ago. She said, “I’m so sorry, I had no idea he told me these lies.” And I said, “Okay, don’t worry about it.” But then I showed him the messages. And said, “Look, she told me everything. I know this has been going on for two months.” And once he was found out, he broke down and cried, and, oh, you know, I’m so messed up. And yeah, let’s work on it, blah, blah, blah. So for the next year, I bent over backwards, like I did before, thinking this was just a mistake, like an accident, haha. He made this mistake, and it’s just because things have been rough, and we’ve been fighting. And we got separated, and it knocked him loose, so he’s a little upset about that. I was making all these stupid excuses for him. I didn’t realize fully that he was abusive too. The Impact Of Pornography When My second Husband Is Abusive Anne: Were you aware that he used exploitative material? Chandra: When we were dating, I said to him, “I absolutely don’t tolerate that stuff in my relationships.” And he says, “Oh, well, I used to use that. I only use that when I’m single. I don’t need that. I’m not addicted.” That’s what he said. And I said, it is absolutely not welcome in our relationship. And he agreed. He’s like, okay. I can do that. I’m not addicted to it. But, I noticed right before I moved out, he was on his phone a lot. At one point he had this friend send him images. And we were in the bedroom one time, and he showed me a picture, and he said, Oh, my friend just sent me this. And I took one look at it, and I went, what the heck is that? I said, “That’s pornography. I don’t want to see that.” I was disgusted by it. And I was angry at him, and I caught him a couple of other times looking at images. And I realized, he went back to it. Maybe he’s been doing it the whole time, and I don’t even know. And he would have problems performing in bed. Anne: Yep, that’s a thing. Yeah. Chandra: Right, yeah, and I didn’t realize that, but it sort of made sense. I thought, well, if he’s fooling around with that all the time, he’s not going to have it for me. But he would tell me, he’d say, oh, you do it for me, you do it for me, that kind of thing. Anyway, I realized that was happening, my second husband was also abusive. Unsuccessful Attempts To Salvage The Relationship Chandra: Because I didn’t want that again, I made a big effort the year after the affair to go and see him, spend time with him and be intimate with him. Let me tell you. Anne: Thinking that would solve the problem. That is marital coercion. Chandra: Thinking that would solve the problem. Neither of my husbands were deprived of intimacy. I’ll just say that. They were not. There was no reason for them to do anything else. Anne: Even if they’re deprived of intimacy? There’s still no reason for them to do that. Chandra: I guess the reason I say that is because my first husband had said he had an expectation. That he expected it every day when he married. That’s what he thought. And somehow I had dropped the ball and not made that happen for him. And so that was one of his excuses for acting out. So moving right along, basically, I think there was more divine intervention in helping me get past this relationship. A year after my second husband had that affair, a bunch of horrible things happened all at once. I lost my job, had a layoff. And I actually think it was related to all the st…

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This Is How Abusers Manipulate Their Victims – Chandra’s First Marriage Nov 14, 2023

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Have you wondered how abusers manipulate their victims? Chandra shares how her first husband manipulated her to keep her in the dark. Chandra, a Shero and member of the BTR.ORG community, shares the first part of her incredible story of surviving abuse despite her first husband’s many attempts to control the narrative. If you’re in this situation and need support, attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session TODAY. This episode follows Chandra’s Story:This Is How Abusers Manipulate Their Victims – Chandra’s First Marriage (THIS EPISODE)When My New Husband Is Abusive Too – Chandra’s Second Marriage Abusers Control The Narrative By Talking First It’s strategic – the way they control the story. This is how abusers manipulate their victims. And the first step they take is telling the story first. The first to talk is generally the one that people believe, unfortunately. So if the abuser seeks religious counseling, back-up from law enforcement, or “emotional support” from family and friends before the victim. They are more likely to be believed and discredit the victim. Furthermore, abusers manipulate their victims by spinning the narrative to make themselves look like the victim. They often do this by admitting to a degree of abuse, but giving an excuse that draws pity or praise: “Yes, I did cheat, but I’m working a therapist on overcoming my childhood trauma, and I’m hoping she’ll forgive me for my attachment issues that led to me betraying her…” “If it wasn’t a sexless marriage, I wouldn’t have to do the things I do…” “My family was abusive, and I’m working so hard to be a better man. I just wish she’d stop ignoring my texts so I could tell her how hard I’m working. Can you ask her to talk to me?” To discover if your husband is emotionally abusive, take our free emotional abuse quiz. Abusers Spin The Story: “I’m The Actual Victim Here” Whether they blame the affair partner, like Chandra’s ex-husband did, or blame the abusive family they grew up in: “I was raised to _____” (objectify women, use exploitative material, hit, sexually abuse women, etc) Blame society: “I’m a man! What do you expect?” Or blame a host of other situations or people, including their hormones, friends, alcohol, drugs, or stress. Abusers who manipulate their victims and are adept at shifting blame from taking accountability for their own choices. To make it appear they were the victim of just about anyone and anything else. The message is loud and clear: “I’m the victim! So feel sorry for me! Stay distracted from trying to ask me to stop hurting you, and don’t even think about asking me to be accountable. I want to be catered to. And given all the so-called privileges that I perceive victims receive!” Abusers Control The Narrative Early & Often Healthy people are generally compassionate, and abusers manipulate their victims by using this. It’s common for abusers to disclose childhood abuse and other traumas early in the relationship. To elicit a blanket of pity that allows them to behave as they want, without consequences. This way, they can be as awful as they want, and can never be held accountable because of the pain from their childhood trauma. But here’s the thing: Many, many adults have severe childhood trauma, but they don’t choose to abuse others. This is how abusers manipulate their victims: When abusers control the narrative, it’s terrifying. Sometimes we don’t even believe ourselves. But at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we believe YOU. You aren’t alone, and we know you are not crazy. You’re safe here. Attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session TODAY. Transcript: This Is How Abusers Manipulate Their Victims Anne: I have a member of our community on today’s episode. I’m going to call her Chandra. She’s a mother of four children. She’s a professional mechanical engineer, and a running enthusiast. She happens to be a Boston marathon finisher. So yay, good job there! She loves yoga and happily married for three years to a healthy, kind, humble man. Chandra married two separate abusers. So part one will be about her first marriage, and then part two next week will be about her second marriage. This episode will focus on how abusers manipulate their victims by controlling the narrative. And then of course stay tuned for next week about her second marriage. Because so many women have gone through that. Where they get out of one abusive marriage, and then through no fault of their own, find themselves in a second one. Welcome to Betrayal Trauma Recovery, Chandra. Chandra: Thank you, Anne. Anne: Our stories, Chandra. That’s where do we even start, right? Chandra: Yeah. Anne: Yeah, so because you have, I would say, your own story, which is one complete story of your experience, but your story includes two marriages. Let’s start with the first marriage. How old were you when you met him? And did you recognize that you were experiencing abuse at first? Chandra’s First Marriage: The Beginning Chandra: I met my first husband when I was about 17, and we started dating then. He was known for having a girl in every city. When he “chose me,” I felt like I had won the lottery. He was a charismatic, outgoing person, and I wasn’t so much. What I didn’t recognize in these early stages was that he was a bit of a womanizer. And loved that attention from other women. And he loved bombed me a lot at first. I didn’t recognize that’s what that was. I felt like I enjoyed the attention I got from him and his prolific love letters and professions of love. It’s intoxicating, right? So that’s how things started, and I didn’t see any red flags early on. Right before we married, he actually served a mission trip, a two year mission trip for our church. Right before he left, he gave me a little promise ring. And said, “When I come back, we will marry.” We’d been dating for about six months when he left, and I was excited about that. I thought, that’s going to be awesome. And I think I’d like to wait for this person, because I was in love with him. And while he was away for those two years, he wrote me a lot of love letters. I thought, this guy isn’t working on his mission. He just writes me letters, and they’re full of all these professions of love. Early Red Flags & Realizations Chandra: When he returned, we basically marry within less than a year. We were both 21 at the time. So I was a little young and still in university. A couple of days before we married, he told me something he had just realized. He told me he remembered when he was five, a foster child living in his family home sexually abused him. And I remember at the time thinking to myself, oh boy, what kind of can of worms is this going to be? And if he’s just realizing this, you know, it sounds like something we’ll have to deal with during the marriage. Because he hasn’t obviously dealt with it up to this point. So I expected some issues. And I knew, because he confessed to me, that during his teenage years, he had made some “mistakes.” And I didn’t know that he was manipulating me. If you’re thinking about the standards of our church. He’d had some indiscretions and had sorted all that out. He never wanted to get into any details with me. About what that involved. So, I saved myself for marriage, and as far as I knew, he had as well. Our parents raised us that way. https://youtu.be/TCFNQiZpDsg He checked all the boxes. He had all the right things when it came to a marriage partner. Even though we were young, I didn’t expect to run into any problems. And I know that everybody liked him in my family, and everyone was excited about our marriage. So we married. The first time I became aware I could have a problem in my marriage was when my oldest daughter was 18 months old. Thinking I Was Not Good Enough Chandra: My younger sister had actually just passed away. He decided that was a good time to tell me that he was actually developing a relationship with someone else at work. I remember reflecting later on this. Why did I responded this way? But I immediately thought it was something to do with me. That I was not good enough, he manipulated me to make me think it was my fault. I was in school, we had a baby and it was a rough time. We were tired and didn’t have a lot of money. And I thought, oh, all the pressures of getting our lives off the ground, it’s been too much for him. So I thought, oh, I’ve got to make life better for him, and I’ve got to fix this, and maybe I’m not good enough. I basically spent the rest of the marriage trying to be the perfect wife, this was the result of staying married after infidelity. And just getting angrier and angrier as I noticed red flags popping up. I noticed he would lie to me about small things, about money. I could see him flirting with other women. And he became more and more deceptive and withdrawn. He never emotionally connected with me or opened up to me. I think that’s all part of their desire to control the narrative. As I get into my story more, I definitely have some examples of how he did that kind of thing. Making it about him, and telling me things that were not true, to control the narrative and what I was experiencing. It’s very confusing to be around someone doing that. The first time I had any inkling that I was in something that might be abusive in terms of a relationship and that lying is emotionally abusive. The Inappropriate Neighbor Incident Chandra: We lived in this neighborhood. I had three children at the time. I think I was pregnant with my fourth and last child. There was a lady who moved into the neighborhood. She was a single mom, separated from her husband. She had three children, and needed a lot of help. I remember befriending her and having her over with her kids, talking to her and doing things for her. I would watch her kids sometimes. At Christmas time, she didn’t have a lot of money, and we were doing reasonably well. So I bought some gifts for her kids, took them over to them, and invited them for Christmas dinner. She was in my life, and I think we actually invited her to church with us. She was sitting behind us in the pew with her kids. The bishop in our congregation at the time actually came to my ex-husband after the meeting and warned him. He said to him, “I think you need to be careful of the woman you brought to church.” And I didn’t know at the time, he was fooling around with her. I didn’t know the extent of what was happening. But I was starting to feel strange about the situation, and I visited a friend of mine. She, my closest friend at the time, actually married his best friend. And I was talking to them and mentioned the situation. And her husband, my friend’s husband, his best friend, said to me, “You don’t know everything about him, you know.” And I thought, What? What does he mean by that? And I went home, and that was the first thing I asked him. What’s going on with this neighbor? He Admits To An Affair Chandra: And I think at the time she’d actually moved out of the neighborhood. He told me he was friends with her and they were working on a business together. And she had this great business idea, and he had this pattern of always starting businesses. I don’t know why, but he loved to start businesses. He made a bunch of money, and then he spent it all or lost it all. It was kind of the cyclical behavior that he had. So he started a business with her. He told me that she had basically attacked him. He was the one who had taken the high road. And said, “There’s all these people we need to think about. We can’t have this happen, there’s all these children, and my wife.” He was trying to make himself look like he was the good guy, and that he stopped it. Anne: And at the same time, he’s not cutting off contact with her, he was maniplulating you and her. Chandra: No, no, and I still don’t know if he completely cut it off. She wasn’t living in the neighborhood anymore, and I honestly don’t know what happened after that. But when my friend’s husband told me I didn’t know everything about him, he actually wasn’t talking about this woman. He was talking about something else that I knew nothing about. Anne: Wow. Chandra: He talked about how my ex-husband went to strip clubs. He knew my husband would go to strip clubs. I knew nothing about that until many years later, when my husband did a big disclosure dump on me right before he left. His Best Friend Knew, But Didn’t Tell Me Chandra: What bugs me about my friend’s husband knowing that and not sharing that with me. Is feeling like there was someone else who knew about his destructive behaviors and was complicit in his abuse of me. I was so upset later on just knowing that. Anne: Why didn’t he just flat out tell you? Chandra: Yeah, he was like, oh, well this is between you two, and I’m going to let you go home and talk to him about this. And ask him. Anne: Yeah, but he’s already been lying to you the whole time, right? This is how these men manipulate their wives. Chandra: Exactly. Anne: So, why wouldn’t he lie to you again? The other question I have is, did you say it was the bishop that came over that day and said, I’d watch out for her? Chandra: Yep. Anne: Okay, I don’t know if he knew what was going on or not, but why didn’t he say watch out for your own husband? Chandra: Well, he didn’t talk to me. He talked to my husband. And said he thought this woman looked like she was. He just had a funny feeling about the situation, and he said that to my husband. Anne: And he assumed it was her, rather than him. Chandra: He assumed it was her, not him. He assumed my husband was innocent in the whole thing. I know, scary, huh? That is super scary. Nobody said anything to me either, so I had no idea. My Sister-In-Law’s Reaction Shook Me Up Chandra: This is what happened. I had a sister-in-law living in the same city as me at the same time. And we were close. I was just talking to her one day. And I told her about all this, and I said, oh, this stuff happened. I was just kind of telling her and her reaction. She was so indignant and so upset. About the whole thing, and her reaction actually shook me loose. Because I was going along like, yeah, this happened. And it’s not great. And I don’t know what to do about it. But she was upset about it. I actually had a fight with him, I think that night or like later that week. And I brought it up again. I felt like he was like telling me all these lies to cover up what was going on, and to manipulate me into not finding out the truth. But I had no proof that anything he was saying to me was true or not. So I could feel there was something wrong, but I had no proof. And I was upset. I went for a walk. I was like five months, six months pregnant. It’s the middle of winter. I’m out walking for about an hour, and just the sum total of all the small lies. And seeing him flirt with other women, and all the bending over backwards, I’d done. To be the perfect wife, so that he would be happy. I just thought, I need to get out of this relationship. So I remember thinking that and just thinking, I don’t want to be here anymore. I don’t want to do this anymore. But I was pregnant. I had been out of school for six or seven years. I had no work experience. And I was scared. Abusers Manipulate With Charisma Chandra: I was also afraid of how I would be treated by all the people who pressured us to succeed in our marriage. You know, the faith community, the families. I knew nobody would believe me. Because he was Mr. Charisma, and everybody thought he worshiped the ground I walked on. He manipulated everyone and he behaved outwardly made it look like that. So I didn’t think I could do anything at the time. And so I didn’t, I didn’t leave. I wish I had, because being abandoned is a lot worse than getting the courage up to leave yourself. Anne: Do you feel like now that was God telling you to leave? I mean, you kind of mentioned that, but do you feel now that that’s really what that was? Chandra: Oh yeah, absolutely. I mean,…

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