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Join two of Acorn’s Directors, best-selling authors and asbestos experts Ian Stone and Neil Munro as they educate, guide and take the complication out of asbestos management.
Get the information you need to help manage your asbestos risk.
“Remember asbestos first, not last” – Neil Munro and Ian Stone.
Copyright: © Asbestos Knowledge Empire 2019
In this episode Neil and Ian discussed the requirements of asbestos labelling. Is it a requirement? What type of labels do you need to use?
In this episode Neil and Ian discuss what you need to look out for as a dutyholder / asbestos Project Manager / Asbestos Consultant on your asbestos removal projects.
In this episode Neil and Ian discuss asbestos in grade 1 and grade 2 listed buildings. You need to get the right surveyor with the right experience and knowledge of these buildings. Where was asbestos used in these buildings, when was it added and why?
In this episode Neil and Ian discuss the types of asbestos encapsulation. The commonly available encapsulation methods are:
Transcript
Ian: Welcome to the Asbestos Knowledge Empire. I'm Ian Stone.
Neil: I'm Neil Munro. So today we are going to talk about asbestos and encapsulating asbestos materials, so we had a bit of a situation where one of our clients and they are looking to encapsulate some external asbestos. So asbestos insulating board soffits and the question they kind of raised was what do they have to encapsulate those materials with. So in their minds they've heard about the different materials and different products that run the market for encapsulating materials, so they adamantly know it have to be ET150 which is and will explain going to a bit more detail of exactly what it is. But it is a product that is common in they are used to encapsulate asbestos materials within the asbestos industry. So the external asbestos insulating boards soffits, fixated in their minds that it had to be two coats of ET150. That's an okay material to use but it sorts of boil into question, how long would that actually last on the external of the property because it is actually not an external product, and it would face will it be on the outside, below the roof and there is gutters that's sort of the soffits so that is going to be weathered and susceptible to a lot of rain and wind etcetera on the outside of the building. And they've already previously done called a lot of these encapsulating works throughout this property.
Ian: What do they do?
Neil: There is evidence that the ET150 that they have previously used has weathered, has starting to peel, starting to bubble.
Ian: Which that doesn't surprise me.
Neil: Yeah.
Ian: Because like you say like the ET150 is elastomeric sealing. It dries with like a rubberize finish so that's kind of our go to as an industry.
Neil: It is a perfect product for…
Ian: Stuff inside.
Neil: Yes, stuff inside, so
Ian: Or in walls.
Neil: Yeah, walls, asbestos insulating boards, ceiling, walls, paneling fabrics.
Ian: But like you say it is not an external paint. It is not an exterior paint.
Neil: No. It is perfect inside because it doesn't get any weathering, doesn't get any rain on it, gives it some impact protection. Doesn't peel when it is dry. It can take a bit of vapor so in boiler rooms where there's a bit of steam. It is okay for that. But when we are talking about wind, rain, hail, snow, temperatures constantly going up and down like freezing.
Ian: Yeah. But in their mind they just heard that's ET150 is the asbestos paint.
Neil: It's got to be that because that's what you use for asbestos, and it's all brought about big question is.
Ian: What can you actually use?
Neil: What can you actually use and do you have to use that?
Ian: Okay. We got a few that we're going to run through of different ones that you can use and can be use, and it is kind of horses for courses. It is different products are better for different things.
Neil: We actually scan [unclear – 03:27] and even asbestos contractors guide as well. There is no specification.
Ian: No. The only that kind of mentioned was in essentials where it talks about a non.
Neil: Yeah, asbestos essential. There is a task sheet for encapsulating asbestos cement and it just said a low solvent.
Ian: That's it, low solvent, which that is kind of a standard practice anyway because...
Neil: Yeah, that is a non-descript.
Ian: That's coming at it from the health and safety point of view of high solvent paints so give more dangerous to your health, more risk of being more flammable, etcetera. So yeah, there are different thing that you can use. You can use normal house paints. Start kind of the lower end of the scale.
Neil: More emulsion.
Ian: Yeah, bit of emulsion. Slap it on there. It will cover it. It will seal it at exactly the same way. The thing with kind of standard paints is you'll get a better finish that than you would… That's the only thing with.
Neil: Pick the color you want.
Ian: Yeah pick the color you want. Get ET150 it comes in white, grey.
Neil: Dark grey.
Ian: Dark grey, yeah. And you're in the realms of like took in other colors into mix with it which it is never ideal.
Neil: Yeah, we've removed emulsion obviously it is quite thin so particularly if you are encapsulating a friable material wouldn't it take quite a few coats so and say to actually get a decent seal on it.
Ian: Even if you're spraying it, it would. Whether you are spraying it or painting it with like brushes or rollers it definitely.
Neil: You need a good few coats probably just to actually seal it in particular like AIB where you have actually got fibers sticking out of the material.
Ian: You think of like when you are doing any decorating in your house like when you paint it. I mean it is brilliant one coat, makes me laugh every time. One coat, well, always needs two coats doesn't it. Have you ever used the pink stuff? You paint it pink and it goes white. I've used that. Again, you still need more and you still miss a bit. That might be just me because I'm crap at decorating.
Neil: DIY specialist.
Ian: Yes, so you can use those. Now, the downside of using emulsion, like I said the upside is you get a better finish and you get the color you want. The downside is that there is no kind of impact protection there.
Neil: No.
Ian: That's the problem, and that's why when you ratchet it upon the next one on the scale is the ET150.
Neil: And particularly I suppose it depends on what kind of emulsion so like standard emulsion, you can wipe that off with a cloth quite easily so it is not really going to give you any protection over than it might just stick the fibers down to the material a bit, that's been unsealed. Obviously if you have got like clean ones or something that's a bit more.
Ian: Like the satin finish or whatever. Again, that gives you a little bit more…
Neil: A little bit stronger, sort of a stronger finish.
Ian: Yeah, but when you compare that like I say to the next one on the list which is ET150 that is where it comes into its own and that is why as an industry we use it a lot. It is a thick paint, it dries.
Neil: Compared to emulsion, yeah. If you're looking at that emulsion that's of ET15. ET150 looks more like paste, doesn't it? It is real thick sort of paint.
Ian: It is fantastic and it does the job great. Like I said earlier you can encapsulate boiler room walls, ceilings, paint big panels of asbestos insulating boards, paint pipe work with it, whatever, and it goes on nice and thick. It covers really well. Once it is dry it does give a little bit of impact protection because it's got that kind of rubberized finish.
Neil: Yeah, another thing I would say you're not going to get a decorative finish.
Ian: That's exactly where I was going with that. The finish is never meant.
Neil: Yeah, It is sealed.
Ian: Exactly, yeah. And there is a different job between painting like for aesthetics and painting for sealing the asbestos. And even if you got a painter and decorator in was asbestos trained to do that you still not going to get the finish that you would with normal stuff.
Neil: How many contractors you had say, no decorate mate.
Ian: Every single one. That's a classic line. Yes, so that's the only problem or the only downside but I mean most of the time when it is boiler rooms, back of house, all the rest of it, as long as it looks half decent and it is sealing the area. I mean don't get me wrong you can get a good finish. It doesn't always have to look like a dog's dinner.
Neil: I was going to say like with big areas where contractors and sprayer applied it which involves watering the material down so it can be sprayable but they have to do a few more coats. You know, two coats is usually not enough so they end up doing three or four coats to get that protection layer but it is a smoother finish. It is a smoother finish whereas if you hand brushing it on you get extra on so you end up with a thicker layer but it does look a little bit rough. So it is important to bear in mind that if you're encapsulating asbestos materials when somewhere where you want to look pretty.
Ian: Yeah, if you think about like on the entrance to a building or reception are or something.
Neil: Potentially not going to have a nice finish on that.
Ian: No. Not if they can't spray it at least. But that said like I said that is the standard go to within our industry for those reasons but like we said it doesn't necessarily have to be that. So the next one down on the list is like a penetrating encapsulant. See this kind of, again, they soak in to the material more. They give an even more protection because they kind of soak up into it and therefore that protection factor.
Neil: That comes a layer part of the layer on.
Ian: Yeah, becomes like a layer on the outside itself, and it is good for more friable asbestos types really. There is a few on the market.
Neil: But again that's all on the application process where not being applied correctly and having the correct amount of layers building upon the material.
Ian: And the experience because when you're working with these materials, I mean, like we say anybody can paint a wall, right. So yeah, fine, using emulsion, that's fine. Using an ET150 that's fine. When you start using the penetrating encapsulants you need to know how much of a layer you are putting on. How long that you are leaving it, how many coats you are giving it, the gaps and times in between because that can all affect because the last thing you want to do is encapsulate the substrate and then that causes damage to the actual asbestos.
Neil: Yeah. And there is obviously a cost difference between those and the ET150 as well. So that' something to bear in mind and if you are encapsulating a lot of asbestos materials that's going to increase, you know, it's going to have a multiple…
Ian: And there is another one as well which is water base epoxy resins. Now they are available kind of either as a resin finish itself, so whereas kind of like the penetrating encapsulant, it will finish over the material and usually give like a cloudy or a clear finish. But also you can get them where you use like a chopped strand mat that goes into the mix as well. And again, that gives you a real high impact and high protection that's kind of it becomes easier to use, easier to manage, it is cleanable.
Neil: Yeah, it kinds of give you a cleanable surface afterwards.
Ian: But again that even more so than the penetrating ones. That's an even more difficult material to use and to get the right finish on.
Neil: Yeah, paint wise, yeah. So that's kind of covering the actual encapsulating material but if you want to go to the next level and that sort of add into mechanical encapsulations in the HSE. You can actually build something around the materials and that could be anything.
Ian: Exactly that. I mean, it doesn't have to be painted to be encapsulated. It could be a…
Neil: Box in with plaster board or anything. Yeah, aluminum casings or…
Ian: Seen the results over the years like boarding directly applied on like Supalax, stuff like that. What you said…
Neil: Yeah, put board and AIB, asbestos insulating board.
Ian: Plyboard in the boxing out, plaster board in and around it, metal sheeting put directly over it like panels put straight over it. Yeah, tin going around pipes, even wrapping with kind of fiber glass and [unclear – 10:53] wrapping them up. Again, this is all form of encapsulation.
Neil: Yeah. Again, going back to what I was talking about in the beginning, the asbestos insulating board soffits are more permanent solution for that. It could have been over clamming it with PVC and that probably would last for years, 20 years probably, you know in case material itself so encapsulation, few examples but if you want some real sort of protection is go to mechanical protection really.
Ian: Yeah, definitely.
Neil: Longevity for materials.
Ian: Like I said earlier it horse for courses so it depends on what you're doing and what area it's in and what you need it to do.
Neil: How long you want it to last and how much you want to spend.
Ian: Yeah, exactly that.
Neil: You know, if it is a building that you know in the future is going to be refurbed or might be demolished etcetera probably not going to want to spend loads protecting material. You just got to sort of weigh up those.
Ian: No. Just kind of the risk versus the need versus what's actually the lifetime of that.
Neil: Exactly. And with that example it will be asbestos insulating boards soffits on the external, up high level. You don't really need any impact protection.
Ian: And also with that, I mean, like you said they are really hang up on the idea of it's got to be ET150. Well, it doesn't. I mean there's plenty of external.
Neil: Yeah, external masonry paint would could have been a better solution. You could even go, you know, a layer of coating of ET150 to give it that impact protection and asbestos protection and then maybe overcoating it with external masonry just to give it that weather proofing.
Ian: And that's the key there like the point is like you said like it bubbled because it getting water damage and the rest it all ET150 is not going to stop that. The only thing that's going to stop that from happening is weather protecting it.
Neil: And sometimes it is so you've got to look at is there another reason for that, and it might have been that water can ingress from, and there's some small crack somewhere or could have been the fixtures that were actually letting water through so water is getting in behind the soffits against through, yeah, soaking through the soffit, so it is actually coming from on top as opposed to from underneath.
Ian: Well, in my house, recently I had a leak and it came in from, I don't even know, it just came in. It has found its way in and that's the problem of where it does.
Neil: Yeah, it will find its course don't it.
Ian: Yeah, part of the least resistance.
Neil: That's it definitely.
Ian: Have you found that one interesting. You've learned a bit about encapsulation and the fact that yes ET150 is the common industry standard go to but it is not necessarily the required one. You should just choose the best encapsulation for the job and what's going to be better in the long run.
Neil: I see. I think the important thing is to make sure that whatever you do use is adequate for what you need it to.
Ian: It's got to be fit for purpose.
Neil: Fit for purpose, and putting cost because you might have to end spending more in line.
Ian: Yup, so that's just for now and remember asbestos first not last.
In this episode Neil and Ian explain the Regular Interlaboratory Counting Exchanges (RICE). The scheme assesses the proficiency of laboratories counting asbestos fibres in air. UK laboratories are required to be accredited by the United Kingdom Accreditation Service (UKAS) to ISO 17025 to undertake this particular analysis as part of assessing clearance under the Control of Asbestos Regulations (CAR).
Transcript
Ian: Welcome to Asbestos Knowledge Empire. I'm Ian Stone.
Neil: I'm Neil Munro.
Ian: So today we are talking about RICE.
Neil: Not the stuff you eat.
Ian: We are talking about the Regular Interlaboratory Counting Exchanges. That rolls a few time easy, it is not lame. So a few podcast ago we spoke about the AIMS which is the bulk analysis, the actual physical asbestos sampling analysis whereas RICE it is kind of a similar scheme but it is to check off our air analyst, our air management analyst. Again, it is an external scheme and it is run by HSE testing and monitoring again, and every so often, it's like once a quarter I think they send out a number of actual slides.
Neil: Yup. Again, these are real live ones sometimes but more often they are made up. And really it goes kind of against the day to day sort of air monitoring slides that the analyst see.
Ian: A lot of the time, yeah.
Neil: So it goes against, so you got heavily saturated fibers on some of the slides and sometimes it would be chrysotile fibers which are really sort of like fine and thin and hard to see, and they are on the borderline countable. Sometimes it would be sort of amphibole needle like fibers which are heavily stack in the actual slide itself which high counters. And then sometimes it would be very, very low counters where there is barely any fibers on the slides. And then sometimes I spot just a little tiny bit which is heavily populated.
Ian: In one area.
Neil: One area and they are the ones which fry all the counters out because when you've got 10 counters on and it is very subjective so the way that you count a slide it's random sort of graticules that you're counting, so it is kind of a bull's eye.
Ian: If you imagine a bull's eye or a target or like on a rifle the optical that a shooter would look through, that kind of target.
Neil: Yup, well those on the microscope and you move it around the slide and you just count within that target area.
Ian: And it is moved around the slide in a random, not in a systematic, not the same and we're counting 200 graticules on the slide.
Neil: So you can imagine if counters, they all count differently, so you're going to hit that random area.
Ian: Some will, some won't.
Neil: Some won't. And that sort of kind of the counter out. So they really have, once this sort of like quantify sometimes.
Ian: Again, this is kind of the air management analyst kind of getting raw slides in.
Neil: Yeah, because there are bogus.
Ian: There ae bogus. But again they keep you on your toes, they test you. They make sure that you are doing everything properly so when you are counting an air management slide you need to zoom all the way down through all the plains on the actual slides. What I mean by that is you zoom all the way down through the sample back all the way up through the sample because the different fibers can sit at different levels within that filter and you need to make sure that…
Neil: You're counting the whole slides.
Ian: Yeah, you are counting the whole slide. You are spotting all of those fibers that are on that actual filter. Yeah, and it is quite easy on some of them if you had just a quick scan over. On first impression you go, "Nah, there's nothing on this one." But then when you start zooming in and out of the filter you find the plain where the asbestos fiber are sitting whereas at first glance you're going, "There is nothing on it." And like you said the chrysotile ones are, they bsolutely bogus because they are so fine.
Neil: You've got to find focus on those slides to make sure that you do see all the fibers. To calibrate the microscope, you know, we use some calibration, imperial test slides they are called, and you have to see a certain band of on that test slide to make sure that you are in line you are seeing all the fibers that are countable.
Ian: And the band that we are talking about it is not like, it's difficult to explain. It is like once you set the microscope up you look at the bands and band one is easy, band two is alright, three is alright, four gets a bit more a little difficult, five… It is like you can just see it and that's on the microscope that's set up 100%. It is so fine and that is why you have to follow the procedures to set the microscope up correctly because if you don't you won't get to see the fifth band. If you can't see the fifth band, when you then count normal slides or RICE slides you are not going to see those fine minute fibers. And that's why it is so important and so key. So with the RICE exchanges, every UK accredited laboratory counts them it goes back to HSE then basically analyze the results of everything.
Neil: And then the lab. Our lab…
Ian: You are categorized.
Neil: You are categorized and you have to fit in within certain bounds. And we have to maintain that for our accreditation.
Ian: Yes, we do.
Neil: So far, suddenly there are fiber counters stopped being able to count properly we lose our accreditation.
Ian: Yeah, we can't then trade and do air managing.
Neil: Yeah, simple as that.
Ian: So it is great kind of quality control system for clients, again, through what we do. It gives you the confidence in the fact that we can do what we say we can do.
Neil: Again, complacency sits in all fields of work and this is just a way of ensuring and it is externally verified that our counters are still maintaining the standard required. In the addition to that, you know, the counters we have our own internal QC systems.
Ian: Yeah, we have our own set of slides don't we.
Neil: That RICE is quarterly, and QCs are, they are monthly, so the counters will have to count library slides and working slides.
Ian: Yeah, and what do we mean by working slides, so the quality department, so they pull people slides from actual working sites and take the labels of, relabel them as the working slide for everybody else to count that month, and everybody's slide gets pulled. So basically what you've recorded on site for your slides, your slides get taken out of the storage box, re-issued to everybody and then everybody else counts what you've counted.
Neil: Yeah, it is to double check. One, checking if everyone is still counting right, and two, it is to check off that individual counted that slide correctly on that occasion.
Ian: Yeah, it is kind of double check on that one.
Neil: Yes. There's lots that goes into obviously maintaining the quality within a UK accredited laboratory and that's just one of those.
Ian: Well, those hoops that we have to jump through that the analyst love doing.
Neil: But it is good. We work with asbestos, it is a hazardous material, and it does kill people and we can't afford to let standard slip.
Ian: No, definitely, no.
Neil: So we're really big on making sure that a department is on top of all of our necessary checks and quality controls.
Ian: Yeah, and the thing is we take it serious to the point of we just don't do the band minimum. We do more. We go above and beyond for those reasons. I mean, we want to be able to sleep at night to make sure that our guys are out there doing what they should be doing. And the only way to do it is to test and measure, and these kind of QCs system and the RICE system, the AIMS system, that's what they do. They test and measure our staff and staff performance.
Neil: It is definitely particularly important for the fiber counters because essentially as part of the of course those clearance of asbestos removal works before the enclosure or the area could be handed back to the occupants we have to follow those clearance and part of that is the air monitoring which includes the fiber counting. So before that area come down we need to be satisfied that the area is satisfactory and if their counter is not counting right then potentially they are going to pass off an area that's maybe not fit for re-occupation.
Ian: And that's it, because asbestos is so minute that's why we use microscopes. You might have an area that looks alright however there could be millions of fibers in the air. And that is what this check is doing. This is what its capturing. It is capturing the snapshot of air at that time and then the analyst is counting that actual sample to make sure and say, "Yes, I'm happy for the children to re-enter this classroom", "Yes, I am happy for the office workers to come back in to this area and sit within this environment all day every day." And that's why it is so vital and so important, and that's why the QC needs to be up there.
Neil: Yeah, and rises just the next level of the quality control, and again, it is the external verification. These results are published as part of the ongoing rising.
Ian: Hope you enjoyed that one. Thanks for listening. Remember, asbestos first not last.
In this episode Neil and Ian talk through a recent asbestos project. They talk through how the client was help, what the project was, and lessons learnt. Transcript Ian: Welcome to Asbestos Knowledge Empire. I'm Ian Stone. Neil: And I'm Neil Munro. So today we are going to talk about a bit of a case study review over how we've helped an individual client. We are going to sort of not mention the actual client names just for confidentiality reasons but we thought it would be a good case study to sort of give you information and what's possible when it comes to helping clients manage their asbestos risk. Ian: I'll set the scene there was a massive refurbishment project being undertaken at this site and… Neil: Multi million pounds. Ian: Yeah it was. It was like a few hundred million pounds overall. Neil: Yeah, and it was essentially sort of included demolishing most of the site. However, maintaining and retaining the actual structure in one section of this building. Ian: Yeah, they were kind of iconic pieces, iconic sections that needed to be kept for asbestos purposes. Ian: Yeah, it is part of the project over the years a certain amount of asbestos knowledge and information are being gathered. I mean, when we first went in… Neil: There's different surveys as well. Wasn't it? Lots. Ian: Yeah, different companies, different surveys. Different findings even. Neil: That was a big highlighting factor at the beginning wasn't it? It was kind of like the client had multiple, multiple surveys, Type 2 surveys, management surveys. Ian: Type 1s even. Neil: Yeah, refurb after refurb after refurb, and when we actually sat down and look all the information, every single report had something different in it. Ian: Yeah, it did. It really did. And that's where we started. It was like we've got this project coming up, alright certain bits are going to be knocked down, certain bits are going to be retained so, and that was the first port of call for us of sit down, we'll do desktop study, so we got all the information, electronic, paper copies, everything. We kind of just laid it all out. Lock ourselves in a room for a few days and just read, literally read everything and make notes as we went of… I don't know. Neil: Cross reference the sections. Ian: Yeah, any discrepancies of stuff that appeared with in our minds, stuff that didn't make sense of I don't know. But like within reports, so there were stuffs that said certain things have been removed yet the following year that area has been surveyed and the findings was it was still there. It was all just a mismatch really. So yeah, that's what we did originally to kind of sit down and get our heads around it all before proceeding with anything. And then only when we kind of had that information had did we then kind of proceed and the next step was to do a new refurb and demo survey in line with what the client actually wanted this time around. So we didn't discard the old information. We took that forwards. Our surveyors took it on board, they took that forwards and appreciated what the issues where on site that were known and also the stuff where there was question marks above. So what we did, we completed that survey. Again, when you compare the final survey report back to the previous stuff, some of the stuff we agreed with, of yes it had been removed and it had been removed well, other areas there was asbestos that should have been removed but it hadn't been removed in its entirety and there was still debris and residue and stuff like that there. And then, there was also even additional findings that nobody had found before. Neil: Yeah, I think if I just interject in there. This is where we sort of lesson learned on. Now this is a massive client, it is a massive site but essentially they didn't really have hold of the asbestos management. There were no key individual on that site managing the asbestos. Ian: There have been people over the years that had tickled it… Neil: Project teams. Ian: …that dabbled it. Yeah, there was not one particular person who was like. Neil: Overriding, controlling the asbestos register. A person who was commissioned, a one person who is commissioned in the surveys so they have to grip on, okay that project over there is doing something, I'm in charge of the refurb survey. That project over there is doing it, I've got a grip on what they are doing on the surveys they are having, and then feeding back in to that one place. So really, no one really had a grip on. Ian: They weren't responsible. There wasn't a responsible person. Neil: Yeah, and like you said that project would have some removed. They have a project didn't get that removed but that information didn't collide and didn't come back into a central point so the actual asbestos register could be updated. And that's kind of where it went wrong. Ian: It did. Neil: And that's where it kind of if you don't get this thing right you leave yourself open. Ian: Yeah, and that's it. There were lots of information there which is great but it was been of a shit shaped. Neil: It was a case of I think they kind of knew yeah we are going to have asbestos survey. We are doing some asbestos survey. And that kind of the method that they have followed and thought they were complying. Yeah, we run a survey, and it was kind of survey after survey after survey after survey. Ian: Which was right but it wasn't in line with the overall management. Neil: No. Ian: There wasn't like the forethought of it was blink is on of this little project that's all I'm getting sought for. Neil: That's all I'm doing. Yeah, I'm might care for this project. I'm not thinking about the management. Ian: No. Neil: And that's kind of where that went wrong. Ian: It did and that's kind of when we are brought in and that was what we took charge of for that of there are elements of the project that were happening in other areas and stuff but it all got brought in under our kind of watch if you like. Neil: And definitely those projects they weren't thinking about management ongoing. They just sort of blinking in those projects so they are paying out maybe for encapsulation and removal works within a project but that didn't really fit with the ongoing management of the location, the area, the site as a whole. Ian: Yeah, the bigger picture. Neil: And they have probably spent thousands and thousands of pounds. Ian: All over the years. Neil: Unnecessarily doing surveys, unnecessarily doing remedials. Ian: I'd go as far as say millions over the years on… Neil: Doubling up on staff. Ian: Yeah. Neil: Not getting it right. Doing it once, twice, three, four, five, probably you know… Ian: Once, twice, three times. Yes, so when we completed that we had the asbestos information. We knew exactly where the client was at. We knew what issues that we are going to face with what the plans where and all the rest of it, so sat down with the project team, discussed everything and kind of forged the way forwards with regards to what needed to be done to get the project completed but also the forethought in mind of what the sight is going to be looking like once it is all completed, and how the management on the site is going to work afterwards. So we help the client with the specification for the removal and the repair of the asbestos that was needed and that was very very key because, again, they were looking at it from the point of X equals Y. And it is like, yes it does on the basic level but without the bigger forethought of, well, if I do this yeah that makes it safe or whatever but then it is like well that is part of your project. And then you go to the next person in the project and they sit and go, "Yeah, you made it safe but now I need to drill through that or that's when the cable roof was going, or, or, or. And it was like, just having us all in that room just discussing the end project as it like one rather than each individual. That was really good from our point of view and the client's because that helped us sort out the correct specification. Neil: Yeah, that emphasizes my point again of you do need somebody who has taken hold of, take in charge of your asbestos because you need that person fighting the corner for the nest management of the building because most importantly when you've got multiple project teams within a site and an organization. You know, the project managers, all they worried about is their project. And you need that individual who's holding the flag for, "No that is not right for the management of the building. We need to do X, Y, Z." Ian: Yeah, definitely. So once the spec was kind of all bottomed out, we help the client tender, the contractors. This was massive. This was a few million worth of asbestos removal. We are on site for two and a half years I think in the end. It wasn't kind of a small project by any shape. And for that so once it was tendered the contractor kind of proved themselves, put the right package together, the right kind of program, we discussed the project with them essentially in with the clients and make sure that they understood what we understood and the outcome of what they were thinking was going to be the same outcome as what as the client had set our goal out to be. Neil: And that is the biggest point to highlight isn't it. It's when you go out to contractors and ask them for quotes for asbestos removal, generally speaking they'll give you the price that they want to give and the project and the removal works that they want to give and they think is best for, not necessarily you, but more to them, how the job is properly done. Ian: And then went in to work. Neil: And then went in to work whereas where you start the frontend is we always go into and the way that we project manage asbestos removal works is with the client's end result at the forefront. Ian: Yes, what is the endgame, what is the end result look like? What does that actually mean at the end? Neil: And then work back from there rather than go, I need that remove in and then we'll make it fit to the management which is the wrong way. Ian: Definitely. So we started on site. Like so we were on site for two and a half years or so and again just from other projects in the past we've learned lessons. And again, we've put all it the kind of this of we put a dedicated team in place for it, so there was a dedicated contracts manager dealing with the client and make sure the site guys were kind of on point. There were senior staffs on site leading the project. Again, who were doing the same making sure everything was all good. And then we kept consistency with the analyst and the project managers that run that project. I mean, two and a half years of being on site, sometimes 24/7, is difficult to do. You can't put somebody to work 24/7. And we would never want to because people get burnt out and people kind of fall out of favor with the industry, and the job especially on big projects. Neil: Yeah, definitely. I'm not a fan of… Ian: We talked about this the other day. Neil: I'm really not a fan of 24/7 work in any industry but particular with asbestos. And it is led by contractors. Contractors go, "Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah." They'll do whatever. And we find ourselves pushing back a little bit because I've done so many 12-hour shifts to any 4 hour work in and we don't get the quality work for 24/7. Ian: It is not cost effective. Neil: No. Ian: On paper it looks cost effective because you get two 12-hours shifts a day, literally around the clock working and therefore the project hits brought in quicker. However, in reality that is badass. Neil: The night shifts do half the work the day shifts do and then you get the battle between the two. Ian: Even like the day shift, like it is a 12-hour day, you get 8 hours work for 12 in the day, and then for the night time you probably get 6 hours work for your 12 hours. Neil: It burns the guys out as well. Ian: Not only the analyst and the project manager, also the supervisors and the operatives. Especially on large big projects because people get kind of snow blind with it. Large scale removal is one thing but kind of when you talk about like environmental cleans when you're picking up minor dust and debris in huge areas, huge spaces, it can be kind of a little bit of soul destroying because you are not removing anything as such. It is not like right, there is a ceiling, now the ceiling is gone or there is a wall, now the wall is gone. It is like the whole clean through. Yes, it looks better than when you started but there is no kind of, I don't know, real big line in the sand of what you've completed. Neil: Yeah, and that's when you start getting the full length out between the day shifts and the night shifts. It is like the next shift comes in and go, "What have we done today?" I just think it is really counterproductive. If any think, if you need to do some, if you did two shifts just normal hours at most but generally speaking if you just do a project one shift a day it always works better. Ian: It does. And also with that it's like you then get the consistency. Neil: Yeah, the same people are coming in day in and day out. There is no double shifts and you are responsible for that area and you get it done. Ian: Yeah. The same people are in charge. The same people carry that responsibility, that weight. There is no kind of jerk and they say, "Well, I didn't do that bit" or whatever. It is like, well, it is your project so it's you. Five days a week, everybody gets a break at the weekend. And do you know that is a big thing with the asbestos industry. I get it. Clients do need stuff sometimes out of hours, 7 days a week, all the rest of it. However, if projects are properly planned. I mean, take the construction industry as a whole. They work Monday to Friday and that's it. Generally speaking that's what happens with refurbishments, buildings. Neil: Yeah, even building a new house. They don't work the weekends unless they are running behind sometimes or whatever but as a rule… Ian: They still get a break in the week. It is not like 7 days and that goes on in the asbestos industry. I've known projects sort of happen where the analyst on site for like 60 days straight without a break, and the supervisor on the site 60 days straight without a break. It is like, in fact, nobody can work that. Neil: It is ridiculous and you can say, well you can mix it up or anything but then if you start mixing it up with different people you then lose the consistency. So for instance, you know, if you've got a big long clearance or you're on a project, the contractor will come to the analyst and they are asking questions of, "What do you think about X, Y and Z?" The analyst will give you an answer. You take that analyst of and you get a new one they might have a different opinion. And that's when you get conflict, he said, she said. Ian: Throwing that off against each other. Neil: Yeah, exactly and you just lose that consistency. So, yeah, it just works so much better, normal shifts, normal hours Ian: When you've got a dedicated team. Neil: Dedicated people on there, having breaks, having regular breaks. It just works so much better. Ian: It does. Neil: When you double up you don't get double. Ian: No you don't. So projects were completed. There's all sorts of kind of issues and things along the way. It is you'd expect on something that's like a few. It is not going to be an easy ride. But we all work together, and again, that was key of the client was o…
Full show notes at the publisherIn this episode Neil and Ian explain the Asbestos in Materials Scheme (AIMS). AIMS assesses the performance of laboratories carrying out the identification of asbestos in bulk materials. UK laboratories are required to be accredited by the United Kingdom Accreditation Service (UKAS) to ISO 17025 to undertake this particular analysis as part of assessing whether materials contain asbestos under the Control of Asbestos Regulations 2012.
Transcript
Neil: Hi! Welcome to the Asbestos Knowledge Empire, my name is Neil Munro.
Ian: I'm Ian Stone. Today, we are going to be talking about AIMS. What is AIMS? What does it mean? Well, for us it's Asbestos In Material Scheme which sounds boring as hell. Our laboratory hates it. The lab analysts absolutely hate it but it is a necessity.
Neil: Yes, it is a scheme operated by the HSE testing and monitoring department who oversee these kind of management and registration of members, and it is basically Asbestos samples that are sent out to UK accredited labs to basically assess and test that to the labs who are performing to how they should be.
Ian: Yeah, it is like a quality control, so our asbestos laboratory we analyze samples for clients. Clients bring them in, our surveyors bring samples in and we undertake what's known in the industry as bulk sampling analysis. So what we do for that is we inspect the materials initially on the microscope. And we are basically looking for anything that looks like asbestos form fiber, and if we do come across fibers that look like asbestos then we melt them in refractive index liquids, that is basically a liquid that's got a certain refractive indexy of light. And then we basically use another microscope, a polarizing light microscope and there are various steps that we go through, pulling all knobs, tweezers, buttons, etcetera.
Neil: Do you know them?
Ian: Not anymore. Yeah, basically we follow all these process and only when we followed that process for that fiber if it does exhibit all of those details then basically that's at the point where we say, right, that is 100% asbestos or no it is not asbestos. And that's what we do for all the different fiber types within any sample that we bring in or clients bring us in.
Neil: And that is just why I have tested. We're looking and we are working towards and we can actually do.
Ian: Yes. It is an external kind of quality control scheme as such, so basically once a quarter, once every three months they send out four samples in lovely little foil packaged like a sample bags. And within those sample bags it can be anything. And it could be real samples so, I don't know, could be a piece of asbestos cement or they also make up their own samples as well.
Neil: More common than not.
Ian: More common than not, yeah.
Neil: They are really pain in the ass ones which are you never see in real life.
Ian: No, and it is a funny one. Yeah, you don't see them in real life because they'll get like ice cube trays and they'll pour cement in and then they'll mix in different fiber types. It could be asbestos. It could be non-asbestos fiber type. Literally whatever they want. They throw into the sample, get a little bit of both, and essentially that could be one sample. So when it comes to us, pop it out on the bag, in the cabinet and you look at the sample and it's a gray block of something that doesn't look like anything that has ever come from site. And then it is our analyst's job to break it down, break it apart into spec throughout the entire sample to find anything that is asbestos or not asbestos. And then at the end of it put their balls on the line and say, "Yes, it is asbestos and these are the fiber types I'm stating that's in it", or "Nope. I've analyzed that sample fully and there is no asbestos in there."
Neil: And sometimes it can be very, very transfibers and they are hard to identify. It is a way of checking, I don't know, that sounds a bit like how they do that. But when you're a bulk analyst and you are analyzing hundreds of samples a week, you're generally seeing the same sort of samples, so you see cement, you see texture coatings, you see vinyl, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. That can come that you know you can look at a sample and you know.
Ian: [unclear – 4:13]
Neil: [unclear – 4:14] what asbestos type is going to be in it. However, there are rare occasions and there are sort of oddities out there where we get samples come in and it has got rare forms of asbestos fiber in it or very trace amounts of stuff. It is basically through evaluate that standard really to make sure you are always expecting the non asbestos and asbestos. And this is a good way of keeping the illness on their toes, keeping their eye in to make sure they are looking for the rare types in particular and definitely the trace amount of asbestos fibers in the samples.
Ian: Yeah it does. It gives one of the ties and kind of stops complacency setting in with those samples. And like you say they can be, I don't know, they can be normal samples, they can be really hard samples, they can be non-asbestos samples. Quite a good one that they throw in now and again is fore damaged asbestos, so not any analysts they will know when you go through the motions. It will only exhibit certain properties. It won't exhibit all of them because it's been damaged by the fire.
Neil: Yeah, it's usually how to get a [unclear – 5:17] in those samples.
Ian: Yeah, exactly, really difficult. But it is still asbestos. It is still an asbestos formed fiber and again it's kind of proving the analyst do know what they are doing and it sends that kind of benchmark. And like I say there is basically four samples, once a quarter they send out.
Neil: All UK accredited labs have do. It is part of their accreditation, maintain a level of confidence within the AIM samples.
Ian: Yup. And also this kind of complements in-house quality control measures like once a month some of these samples, again, the analyst have to do. We've got our own pool of samples. Some are easy, some are hard, some are horrible.
Neil: Some are spiked. So you know because a lot of times you have texture coating generally speaking that it is always ever been cause on that was use in that. Sometimes you get a spiked texture coating samples. And it is just to keep people in their toes to make sure they are actually following the step properly and identifying those fiber types correctly.
Ian: Yeah, examining the full sample for what it is, not the presumption of, oh it is texture coating, right I'm going to find chrysotile.
Neil: Yeah, definitely. And the AIMS ones that are very hot on that and they like for instance they love their vinyl tile sample but on one little corner they'll put some asbestos pigment just on a little dot on the corner. So if you have not scan in the whole sample you won't find it.
Ian: There is one that I remember few years ago. There was a blue carpet tile and between the carpet tile itself the blue fiber is on top of the actual backing some lovely person stuffed a load of chrysolite blue asbestos in there.
Neil: Wow, so blue fibers.
Ian: Yeah, blue fibers on a carpet tile that look like I don't know. It just been brought from being queue that morning.
Neil: When they are scanning it from that you know.
Ian: It is modern.
Neil: Yeah, exactly, you are looking at and ask, "This is a new carpet. What is all this about?" Yeah, that's sort of tricks they have to, isn't it. It is to keep everyone on their toes and to make sure that, you know, giving everyone the level of confidence particularly the individual, or kind of less the company as a whole and the industry as a whole just to keep that sort of consistency and to make sure that we are doing it correctly.
Ian: Yeah, explain a little bit about some of the hoops that we have to jump through as part of our kind of accreditation, our procedures.
Neil: Yup, so that definitely keeps our bulk analysts. They love that every quarter. Don't they? [unclear – 7:34]
Ian: It is always the dreaded AIMS.
Neil: The dreaded AIMS.
Ian: It is all good. They always get alive.
Neil: They are used to it to even get signed up they have to pass AIMS, so yeah you can rest assure that the bulk analysts are…
Ian: They know what they are doing.
Neil: They know what they are doing.
Ian: And they are the checks that are in place. It is not like, I don't know. They've been doing the job. They are alright. They are being externally qualified and verified for it.
Neil: And it is the ongoing thing isn't it? It is the ongoing so it is not just you pass one time and you're over the hurdle.
Ian: Back in 1974, I'll pass this thing and I'm alright. Now, it is like, no, no, you've got to keep continually proving your worth and proving that you are doing what you should be doing.
Neil: Yeah, because we all know that complacency sets in and when you analyze in cement sample after cement sample you can't take there, you know, you can't presume. You do have to follow that set process every single time to make sure you identify it correctly.
Ian: See that's the Asbestos In Materials Scheme or AIM Scheme. I hope you find that useful. If you've got any other kind of, I don't know, if something comes in you think, I wonder how they do that, or why they do that, or whatever, please contact us through the Facebook group just search Asbestos Knowledge Empire. Remember, asbestos first, not last.
In this episode Neil and Ian discuss new exciting methods relating to asbestos disposal. These new methods if adopted will help stop asbestos having to go to landfill – as spoken about by Dr Yvonne Waterman in at the Birmingham Contamination Expo – Asbestos Denaturation
More info re all of this will be at the European Asbestos Forum held in November in Holland
https://www.europeanasbestosforum.org/
Transcript:
Neil: Hi! Welcome to Asbestos Knowledge Empire. My name is Neil Munro.
Ian: Hi! I'm Ian Stone. So today we're talking about some exciting developments with regards to asbestos land fill.
Neil: What happens to asbestos? So we went to a conference or an exhibition.
Ian: It was the [unclear – 00:57]
Neil: That's the word.
Ian: Yeah, in Birmingham.
Neil: Lots of different people from the industry, asbestos industry flood, everyone in and around that was there. Lots of different companies sort of exhibitions sharing sort of new techniques, best practice, innovations and there are also quite a lot of seminars.
Ian: Yes, so, one of them we saw Dr. Yvonne Waterman she spoke about asbestos denaturation. So at the moment asbestos goes to the landfill, so we remove it, it gets bunked up or wrapped appropriately, gets taken off to other waste transfer station or straight to landfill.
Neil: Yeah, and get buried in the ground.
Ian: And that's the long short of it. Asbestos comes out of the ground, we wrapped it up, we stick it back in the ground.
Neil: And this is creating not a very nice legacy that we are leaving for future generations really, all these harmful material. So we imported all asbestos that's been used in this country, so we export it from different countries and create millions of tons of asbestos products and to this date all of it that's been removed is going to land fill.
Ian: Yes.
Neil: And if you can imagine the tons and tons of these materials that of now just been buried in the ground and will continue for the future. However, there are some really exciting innovations that are coming in their infancy to market and we just want to share those. We pick this up from some experts at the conference at the exhibition and so we got to share that in this podcast today.
Ian: Yeah. This is what Dr. Yvonne Waterman, I can't remember her colleague's name, but that's what she spoke about. We just want to give you kind of our layman's interpretation of what she spoke about.
Neil: Yeah, it is very layman.
Ian: There is going to be more information on this.
Neil: Different removal techniques have been pioneered in there, so how many is it roughly?
Ian: Four we've got.
Neil: So if we start with the first one then. This was the quite exciting one for me which I highly appreciate was chemical eradication.
Ian: I think this one sounds, I don't know, sounds the most promising to me.
Neil: Yeah, that and the kinetic one, and even the final one.
Ian: [unclear – 03:14]
Neil: This three definitely.
Ian: So yeah, chemical eradication, and what she spoke about was basically putting asbestos cement products into a vat of acid, don't know what type of acid it is.
Neil: Yeah, and the additional benefits, these are byproducts from industries. So they are using the acids that are byproducts of and waste products from other industries, and using them to break down the asbestos.
Ian: Yeah, and also what happens is once the asbestos is broken down that creates a byproduct of the original asbestos material so the Portland cement and the gypsum after basically what the chemical reaction does. It destroys the asbestos fibers in their entirety. So once it's been through the acid there is no asbestos fiber essentially left, and you're just left with materials that can then be re-pass and re put back into construction materials.
Neil: Yup, so these are inert materials that are left and yes they'd be really useful for like roads.
Ian: They were talking about making blocks out of them and basically reuse them as building materials.
Neil: Which if you think how much that's going to save in landfill is just unbelievable, when we use these materials that's just amazing.
Ian: It was kind of complex.
Neil: We've just… we got that very, very…
Ian: Dump it down to our very simplistic level.
Neil: Simple diagram explain it this cement sheet are loaded into big vats full of this acid and it's like two step process that it go through and like Ian said you end up with this inert raw material that's left at the end.
Ian: So next one thermal destruction. I don't know that she spoke about thermal in sense. It's just I know that… she did.
Neil: It is basically heating the asbestos products at to, I think it goes above 1,500 ºC, and basically it gets to a certain temperature where the asbestos just breaks down.
Ian: Again, the properties of the asbestos material while we've used it, it seizes to be like that, and basically you can't use it in the same manner. The fibers don't split and again it becomes inert. So again, kind of the byproduct of that you are left with an inert material that can be used and re-used. I know there's been trials in America and stuff where they use if for roads and things. So again, that's an option for the future.
Neil: Yeah, and I know for a fact that this has been used out in the States. Hasn't been brought over here yet I think simple because of the cost. They haven't been able to produce a cost effective way bringing that method over here.
Ian: No. Next one, kinetic, now this sounds pretty cool. Basically using large machines, large units that will rotate and within that machine are big steel balls or balls made of some material placed in there and then as the machine rotates the kinetic energy destroys anything that's put in there. So it's just smash the smithereens and what you are left with again it has broken it down to a point of no return, the asbestos fibers are fully destroyed and the other materials that are put in there are fully destroyed.
Neil: That's crazy.
Ian: It is. It's a mad one.
Neil: I don't quite get the science behind that either. I don't know how that works but.
Ian: I want to see the machine, the size of the machine that they are talking about to do this.
Neil: Yeah. On picture there, have drawn collider.
Ian: Exactly, yeah, like it is the next level science definitely.
Neil: The next one which was interest me but this is probably the less effective one is in time scale because it is the biological. Now, apparently there is a biological work breaking down asbestos. Again, I think this is predominantly across on cement products where they are using fungus/fungi to literally just eat the material away. But I think the trouble with this one is it takes years to actually do.
Ian: Yeah.
Neil: Yeah, that's just, can you imagine that? There are some mushrooms on certain asbestos.
Ian: Yeah, and there is no as he left.
Neil: Yeah.
Ian: Madness.
Neil: How was that?
Ian: Yeah, it was really great talk by Yvonne and she went into it in a hell lot of more data and we just flavored it now.
Neil: The reason we do it is because we want to obviously highlight the facts but it is also to give a shout out to Yvonne because it was a really good talk and
Ian: She had took the European Asbestos Forum.
Neil: That's it which is taking place in November.
Ian: Yeah, November in Holland. It is an annual conference that she puts on this a hell lot of speakers from around the world from asbestos and occupational health. The leading voices on it in the world are going to be attending.
Neil: Yes. If this type of stuff interest you this is kind of stuff that they are putting out there, they are pioneering. They just feeding this information out trying to change in the industry and essentially eradicate the asbestos risk.
Ian: Exactly. That's why we wanted to share it. It's a great talk I think that's going to be an amazing forum. Unfortunately, I am not going to be able to make it because I'm away on holiday but I think hopefully Neil is going to be attending there to kind of get more in-depth knowledge and information. I mean that chat that we saw she was on for about 30 minutes wasn't it so it is a real brief flavor. But yeah they are going to be doing a hell lot deeper than we have.
Neil: I hopefully. I'll be up here to share some information with you guys.
Ian: Hope you enjoy that, quite a random one, quite off the cuff. Remember asbestos first, not last.
In this episode Neil and Ian discuss asbestos reinspection intervals. When should asbestos reinspections be undertaken, who should undertake them and what should they include. Transcript: Ian: Welcome to the Asbestos Knowledge Empire. I'm Ian Stone. Neil: I'm Neil Munro. Ian: So today we are talking about Asbestos re-inspections. Neil: Yes, what is that asbestos re-inspection? Different from a survey. Ian: Well… Exactly that, that's what I was going to start with. Neil: So… and usually that follow on from sort of a survey etcetera, so using base information, so you should really have an existing asbestos register. Ian: Usually that's from a management survey. Neil: Yeah, could have survey information added to it. So it is basically taking the existing asbestos information. Ian: So you know what it is, where it is, the condition that's in and then it is re-inspecting that so a visual check, go into the location that it's in, and looking at the material and comparing it to what data you've got, what the photo previously looked like making sure there is no deterioration, there is no cracks, there is no signs of deterioration. You are checking for water leaks, all sorts of stuff. Basically anything that could affect that material in its location. Neil: And it is part of that process you'd be updating the material risk assessment. So the material risk assessment looks at how easily or how readily that asbestos material will release asbestos fiber should it be damaged. And it looks at the product type so what asbestos product it is. It looks at the condition so whether it is in a good condition or whether it is damaged. It will also look at the surface treatment so whether it is sealed, or unsealed, or it could self sealed. And It will also look at taking to account what asbestos fiber has been identified in them too. So that's probably the most important is updating that information, that assessment because then that falls in and follows in with your priority risk assessment and then your overall risk on how you manage that material. Ian: If you are going to re-inspect and last year the asbestos insulating board ceiling was in a lovely condition. It was all painted and it was all fine. This year you have re-inspection undertaken and for some reason, I don't know, weathering or water leak because the paint is now flaking off. Neil: Chipped it, damaged it. Ian: Yeah, exactly, anything that could affect it then that is kind of the first call of the material has changed. So the risk assessment has changed so it might go from a medium risk up into the high risk category. But also with that like you say, it is the priority risk assessment. That's a very important one to check when you are doing the re-inspection because you could have something that's low risk, or say medium or high risk but it is in a very low risk area. However, in the course of the last 12 months that use of that area has changed. I've seen that before in school halls where you got a store covered and they store hockey sticks in there, so the hockey sticks come out once a year for one week and that's the only time they play hockey. However, in the last 12 months they've cleared all that out, put it somewhere else and now that is the caretaker store, and they are in there at all day every day. Or they are in there that now becomes their material store so the risk of damaging stuff when they are dragging equipment and getting it out, it's kind of increases the risk of any asbestos being damaged in that area. Neil: Yeah. So the golden question and the question we get asked quite a lot, and it is a bit of a gray area when it comes to putting some specific down. So that is when and how often should these re-inspections be undertaken? Ian: Yeah, and from an industry standpoint it is kind of always been 12 months. Neil: Yeah, which I think is probably the benchmark. Ian: A good minimum. Neil: Yeah, the benchmark for if you are going to do something set in 12 monthly inspections is a good place to start. Ian: Yeah, I mean if you think about a year it is a hell of a short period of time. The older I get the quicker my life is flashing through my eyes. Twelve months is going by and that's Christmas comes quicker every year, summers get shorter. Neil: I think that comes down from previous guidance, documents, the proof card practice, you kind of stated re-inspections or inspection of materials should be done annually. However, when the new proof card practice was put up in whenever it was, 2012, it kind of sort of… Ian: It reworded that section. Neil: Yeah, reworded that element. Ian: This section, have you got it? Neil: Yes, so it kind of just pointed towards any identifiable suspect, ACM, must be inspected and its condition assessed periodically so no actual [unclear – 5:12] specific in there. It is not the whole has been damaged. The frequency of inspection would depend on the location, the ACMs, and other factors which old affect their condition for example the activities in building, non-occupancy, etc. There will also be events or changes for example maintenance work, new tenants or employees should also attribute the review of the plan. So it doesn't actually put a timeframe on it however what I believe the interpretation of that is really you've got asbestos materials which are in high volume, high traffic, high occupancy areas, I think you would need to increase the time of inspection rather than decrease it. Ian: Definitely. I think that's a very key point because I think a lot of people look to maximize the time between re-inspections because obviously it costs a lot of money. However, just looking at the word periodically it means from time to time or occasionally, but it also means at regular occurring intervals so even the word itself means both. Neil: Yeah, so if you will then try to do re-inspection every two years it is not kind of regular. Is it? Ian: No. Neil: And lots of people trying to sort of push towards that I think. Now, don't get me wrong, if you've got a mastic pad in a sink within a pumping station that somebody probably goes to once a year then re-inspecting that every year may not be reasonably practical. You could maybe extend that to every two years if you had the evidence to back that up. Now, what I mean by that is if you've got a risk assessment that you've carried out re-inspections for a period of time that may be annually for the last two, three, four years and no change has happened to that material, then yes, you'd have the evidence to say, actually I'm now going to change the frequency of that because I've got the evidence to that over the last 4-5 years the material hasn't changed. It hasn't been disturbed. Ian: Yeah. I think that is the key point there. It's you take the asbestos information but then you churn that through another type of risk assessment to then determine how often you should be doing it because periodically it is different for different things. Again, if you had a mastic pad to a sink in a staff room and for the last four years you have re-inspected it and there's been no change. Yeah, you could make that judgment and go, you know what, it hasn't been affected so I am going to bump it to every other year no or whatever. I personally wouldn't that because the staff room is being used day in and day out and the risk of that material changing is increased because there is more people in and around itself. Neil: And if you got one mastic pad in a school you probably more likely to have other asbestos materials in there which would maybe fall into a higher re-inspecting regime. Ian: Yeah, again, I think it probably make sense you go to the highest category for the re-inspection rather than doing like split shift on what you are going to re-inspect because then it can get complicated. Neil: So to give you an increase, I know you kind of touch on earlier, so if you've got an asbestos material in a school corridor, maybe an asbestos panel on a fire door, re-inspecting that every 1-2 years is not really practical I don't think. Ian: 100% not. Even a school, or even a business like an office or anything like that. Neil: Yeah, yeah, where you got high traffic areas. You've got an asbestos product whether it will be low risk, medium risk, high risk, whatever, if you got it in that location you've got high risk of human exposure because of the occupancy, the activities, the amount of people that are in there. So therefore, really, in that situation you probably looking at daily if not weekly inspections on that material. Ian: 100%, definitely. It is a very good one, right? So if you look at a panel on a back of the door in a business corridor, like I said offices, the likelihood of that getting disturbed would be less because as adults normally we open… Neil: Don't kick doors. Ian: We open doors properly. We don't play football inside. We don't write "Neil loves Eleanor" on the back of a door and scribe it in with a pen knife. Neil: In my doors. Ian: But if you compare that to a school, well, I mean that's the difference. So an office corridor is going to be used normally usually… Neil: As adults. Ian: As adults. Whereas kids at school they are absolutely horrendous at times. Like you say, kick doors. Neil: Well, if you say to a child don't kick that door. It is like, you know, [unclear – 9:52] Isn't it? Ian: If somebody says to me don't do something, now, I'm still likely going to do it. I'm like a big child. Yeah, so exactly that and it is like. So if you take those two scenarios the arrow being in the corridor you might go, do you know what it is a high risk material in a high risk area we are going to re-inspect that once every three months, once every six months. But like you said about the school you're going to be one who's look at that daily or at least weekly I would say because of the likelihood. It goes up through the roof because of the occupants in the area. So it is kind of the blanket industry thing that everybody has taken on over the years are going, yeah once year, once a year, once a year. It is [unclear – 10:29] It is literally [unclear – 10:31] and it all should be risk assessment based on all of those elements really. Neil: Yeah. But equally to that because of these kind of change, not change, but like loosening in the wording. Some people have taken that as to, you don't have to do that every year anymore. They have taken it the wrong way. Ian: Yeah, and it is the wrong way. Neil: It's not a loser, it should be tighter. Ian: Yeah, and that is the way you can read that because before it said annually, so now it doesn't said annually so people have gone, does it say yearly I can go 10 years. Neil: Yeah, it should be risked assessed wise. Ian: Yeah, 100%. So one thing when inspections. Who should carry them out? Neil: That is a very very good question because we do get asked this quite often. Don't we? Ian: Yeah. Neil: And I've got an opinion but should we just describe the actual guidance on that? Ian: So HSE. It should be somebody who is competent. Neil: Yes, competent. Ian: Yeah, competence. What is competence? HSE determines competence who's got knowledge training, experience and other qualities. Never understood what the other qualities mean. I don't know whether that means they are really good and they can remember jokes. Neil: No. It is blue eyes, black eyes, big muscles. Ian: Is it? Neil: Because that's what used to be good qualities as... could be a decent wine collection. Ian: Yeah, other qualities. I don't know what they are but. Neil: We'll pass on that. Ian: We'll skip on that one. Neil: If we take the qualifications, what qualifications can you have? Now, this isn't any actual set qualifications to you can go and do a re-inspection. Ian: No, the closest one that comes to it is a surveyor's qualification. Neil: But I don't think you have to go that because you're not actually surveying for asbestos. You are actually just looking at the material that has already been identified to be to you. But you do need to have some experience of what is asbestos and do you actually know what it is. Do you know what it looks like? Do you know what the materials look like when they change, when they deteriorate, when they start to peel, when there's damage, when the material start to provide a risk. Ian: And if you change the word from a qualification to training and I think that's a key point of you can be trained to do re-inspection without having the formal qualification. And what I mean by training, it could be a competence, somebody who always deemed competent. So one of our asbestos consultants could come to your site and walk it with the property manager or the caretaker and give that kind of toolbox talk, that one to one training on look this is the asbestos that you've got on site. These are the kind of risks to look out for. This is what it looks like now if this happens. So like you say, if it peels, if it cracks, if it chips, if a corner comes off. That kind of training because some people you might say, well, going to have to look at that panel, and they look at the panel, and they are going to go well looks like a photo but it might have a big crack in the middle and the corner missing. He's like, it is not really damaged. It's only a bit. It's not properly damaged. Do you know what I mean? That's what somebody might look at it as and in reality that's not good enough because it has deteriorated. Neil: Yeah, and that kind of comes with experience as well. So for instance you may want to body on your site so you may want to pay asbestos consultants to come and do re-inspection with you a couple of times. So you can gain that experience or you may want to do it and then have it audited by an asbestos consultant to ensure that you are gaining the relevant experience and doing it right basically. Ian: Yeah, that is who should carry them out. However, all of that said, you can get somebody you deemed competent who can be trained and then gets the experience to do it. The kickery is on that. You've got to update all that information. It is not just the case of I'd rather look and it is fine. And that's the difference I find between professional consultants just like us doing it and people on the DIY approach is when we carry out a re-inspection we re-photograph, re-update, we re-issue the report with all that new information, whereas, on the DIY approach it can be done but lots of several another podcast, if you work enough paper… Neil: Yeah, you'll never get that full update so. Ian: No. Neil: You get the picture. What it's actually look at now? Ian: Exactly that. Neil: It was painted orange, it is now painted red. And this is kind of that's when things kind of start to go wrong… Ian: Starts getting confused. Neil: When somebody comes to check your asbestos register they are looking for an orange panel and the asbestos is now red, that's when mistakes can kind of start happening. Ian: Oh, well, it is not here anymore. It must have been removed. Neil: Exactly. Ian: So again, somebody might go, gosh it's removed; delete it, rip the page out and then all of a sudden you've got a bit of asbestos that's not even being managed because it has been removed from your register without appropriate. Neil: Definitely a possibility. The other thing that I wanted to highlight is if you are doing them yourselves or you are employing somebody outside of the industry you are taking the liability as well for that. Ian: Oh yes. Neil: So, you know, it's then on your PI and you…
Full show notes at the publisherIn this episode Neil and Ian discuss asbestos databases. Sometimes referred to asbestos portals, online systems and cloud systems. Asbestos databases are great tools to use to host your asbestos information which should be accessible 24/7. A good database should not only provide access to the finished reports but access to all the individual data. But how much does do these cost..? Find out in this week's episode. Transcript Neil: Hi! Welcome to Asbestos Knowledge Empire. My name is Neil Munro. Ian: Hi, I'm Ian Stone. Neil: So today we are going to talk about asbestos databases. Ian: Yes, sometimes they are called databases or portals. What we mean by that is it's an electronic place where your asbestos information and health and safety information can be held and can be stored. Neil: Online assistance. Ian: Yeah, online assistance. I mean, well, in the olden days they would be on a PC or so, wouldn't they and the actual thing. But nowadays, that's one of the things nowadays it should be an online system. The technology is there to have a very decent online database system. Neil: Lots of things are going to the cloud and that's why we've kind of moved in that direction. Asbestos server reports in the past kind of always generated on paper, weren't they? There was printed photographs that you have to go down to the. Ian: I used to have to go to Snappy Snap. Pick up the… Neil: Getting developed. Ian: Getting developed, pick them up, and then go back and stick them into reports. Neil: Wow, crazy. Ian: But that is what… that was in like 2002. That's madness. Like we hit the future in the year 2000. But in 2002, we're still sticking them in. But thankfully it is not like that anymore and things have developed, have moved on from terrible just paper, paper copy reports to electronic reports in that, fill in online, cloud base systems. Neil: It is kind of a standard really now if you procure an asbestos service. But if you've got multiple sites, really, you should be using an asbestos database because access to your asbestos information makes it so much easier you know. You can access your systems from your phone, and from your laptop, from your tablet. As long as you got an internet connection you should be able to get a hold of your asbestos information. Ian: The thing is with the databases it is definitely if you got multisite, property portfolio, definitely that's the way you should go because as I know access in the information, the knowledge is power kind of thing, if you can access that information that's brilliant. Neil: Yes. Ian: But only if you've got one site electronic database is still. Neil: It is a no brainer. Ian: It is a no brainer. I mean it can be useful. It helps tick your holders box for communication sharing of information. Neil: It makes it a lot easier. You can give that information to your contractor very easily. I've expected most databases you should be able to grant access to information and that could be split down from sites or even down to reports to anyone that needs it. So to give you an example if you've got lots of contractors working on your site and they are accessing different parts of the building you can even give them access to those specific areas of the building. They can log in, usually this is then time stamped so you've got the evidence that they have actually logged in to have a look at the information. And that kind of helps you manage that process of, one, giving the information out; two, recording that be uses of actually looked at it because that's really important because if you've given them a paper copy, you've kind of got no evidence of them actually reading it. Whereas, an electronic system you got that possibility that you can actually time stamped and actually looked at what they've have looked at to ensure that they were using it properly, they are looking at the right stuff. Ian: That at least logged in. Neil: Yeah, it confirmed and that they are actually using it and getting that asbestos information. Ian: Knowing that that's what it is all about, it is about the people that are liable to disturb or anyone at risk should have access to the info. And like you say, the big hospital, the big schools, something like that, you might have a different wings, different blocks. You won't necessarily want to give a contractor the full access to the entire site because you've got sensitive data as well. But you want to give them access to that one wing, or that one boiler room, or whatever. In the electronic way of sharing information it is just a lot easier, and also with that it is up to date information. As soon as you print a report off essentially it is kind of out to date because you never know where is it. If you are logging in through a client a database then you are looking as live information. I mean that's the way that our database works. I know some databases they work on an upload kind of manner of once a week or something like that which isn't as good. Neil: No, isn't it the best thing I suppose. Isn't it? Ian: Yeah, but I mean like I say, it is literally to the second. As soon as you're in the office, uploads the data and the report, it is there for the client to see. So if, I don't know, yesterday we did a reinspection, today she's done a report and in that report we've highlighted that there's now damaged asbestos. As soon as you upload that data it is there to see whereas, I don't know, if we were sending the reports out in the post and somebody went to site and look at that report that info is just dead, it is out of date. Neil: Yeah, for some clients we even record live data as well. For instance, before the reports even been issued that data is, you can see it. [unclear – 5:27] the client can actually log on and see, okay I can see those changes and there just [unclear – 5:34] You can even see the data as it is coming through. So if you do want to get hold of the game and see what's going on that is a possibility as well. Ian: So what's the functionality should be in one, what functionality is in are one. Neil: I think the most important and the easiest one is actually getting access to the end report. So that's the basic features, so you can log on, download the copy of the report. That's the easiest function to really use. Ian: What are the trick things, what are the cool things that ours does? Neil: So you can learn lots of different reports. Essentially so when you get an asbestos server report you get the end product, so whether the data has been collated together and presented in a kind of an easy to useful map presentation, and it is very strict because we keep that in line with UKAS accreditation, in line with guidance. But through the database you've actually got access to the more data, so you can manipulate it, you can pull off as many databases or spreadsheets or in the format that you want. So for instance you can learn I just want to see asbestos floor tiles, where are they in my building, or property, or site? You can run off, you know, what is just asbestos, where there are no access areas, the non-asbestos… Ian: What is non-asbestos, yeah. Neil: And use all those different sort of and tables. You can even say, you know, if you've been using the database and information, you can even run what have we removed over the years. Those types of reports. Ian: That is a good one, again, for reporting for like board level of what has happened over time with the asbestos management. Well, you can back, and like you say you can look at what's been removed. You can then bring up all the removal paperwork because that's all stored in the database, and so even down to the point of the method statements, and the plans of work, and the risk assessments. Neil: Of historical information. Ian: The asbestos waste notes. Neil: Which you legally have to keep. Ian: Yeah, all of that can be stored in the database, and that's the beauty of databases we all know, right? You have a folder, a folder gets moved, you might move office, all of a sudden shit goes missing and you've not got that report anymore, you've not got that data. Neil: Or personnel change. Ian: Yes. That's a biggie. Neil: [unclear – 7:38] Ian: He left with a big box when he got sacked and I don't know that happened to it. Neil: And believe it or not that is a really common scenario. Isn't it? Ian: Yeah. We've had it done. I know we've had it done, Neil. We are going to turn the office. We are going to find it. We've not got it, Neil, can you, what else we do. Neil: Exactly, yeah. Ian: We've had that a million times aren't we. Neil: Yeah. Another key sort of element to it lots of people look information differently and the great thing about a database is you can extract the information off in different formats. So you can extract photo registers, so if you are keen on looking at the actual physical images of the materials you can have it in that format, and you can have it in a register format, so that comes off in an Excel spreadsheet. Some people they love spreadsheets and they can need to see the information of what is in the table. And you can extract as much information as you want, so you can basic information or you can really go down to town and not also get the word information but got all the scores if you like all your priority risk assessments, your material risk assessment, the individual scores for each property. That's a good way. You can also extract out as plans as well because plans go on the database and look at it that way, and then click to those elements and see the information. Ian: I mean, some of our clients as well they have really taken on board the use of that cloud system. It started out as just as their asbestos database but now it is their kind of health and safety portal, and they put in on their staff training for other elements, their fire plans, their fire risk assessment, health and safety policy, because they are in the database. There are different areas that you can put information and clients are uploading their own stuff because we got no limit in the data that they upload. It is just literally there to use and abuse. There is no kind of data limit. There is no kind of set limit, or anything like that. It is just there to be used. For me that's the best way because if that becomes the kind of portal for all the health and safety and all their asbestos, again, it is like… I don't know, years ago it would be in the red folder in reception whereas now it is, well now, like all of our health and safety stuff it is in this database. Go and have a look. It is kind of, yeah, nothing gets lost, nothing gets misplaced. It is literally there and it is there forever. This is what I really like about our database. The really cool thing is the mapping, the geolocation, so for a lot of businesses there is no need. Off of the address there is a geolocation and when you look at it on the map it can pin point all your sites, you can zoom in. You could see exactly where they are all the rest of it. For a lot of sites you don't need it so say a restaurant or a warehouse or whatever. However, some of our other clients environment agencies, service suppliers that might have pump stations in the middle of nowhere, stuff like that. That is so important because again you can geolocate it to the exact location. Neil: Yup. And some of those do use it for guiding the external contractors that haven't been to their sites, and they use our database to actually locating and tell them where it is. Ian: Yeah, because we all know you get an address, you find in the post code, you turn up, you are on the high street and the high street is actually 20 miles long. Neil: Or a London road that's a common one. Ian: And you sit in there on London road. Neil: Where is #1? Ian: And you don't know and that's the thing and with the geolocation it literally pinpoints the exact spot of where you are at essentially the longitude and latitude of the site so you can't go wrong with that. Neil: Yes, great. Ian: It is a really cool feature. Neil: Yeah, so with diverse as well, the client can give access to whoever they want to give access to. Now, it is not the case of they've got to ring up entire support office and get a user added on to the system. It is the flexibility that it can add and remove whoever they want to access that database. Ian: Barry, the plumber, is going to this site next week. Today, the client logs on, gives in the access, that's it, the way he goes. Neil: Yeah, that was a bit of a contentious feature before. It's like, Ah, I got to ring up and it's going to take them a week because they got a backlog blah..blah…blah, you know, they can just log on, add them on, and they got access straight away. Ian: And the same with that the contractor seizes to work for them or an employee seizes the work for them. Literally straight away revoke access, done, so they can't have access to your database, again, which is massively important – GDPR, under all those kind of regulations and that sentiment it is so important to have that. Neil: Yeah, definitely. Ian: So how much should you pay for a database? Give me a figure, how much should we pay? Neil: Million… Ian: Million… that's how much you kind of pay. If only. You know what, over the years, I've been in this industry these years and not over the years. Neil: People chase for data. Don't they? Ian: Yeah, so in charge for data. You are not having your data Mr. Client when you are leaving and going elsewhere. Neil: Strong holding people. Ian: Oh well, it is in the contractual that we own your data. I was like, hold on a minute, it is my data. Neil: Exactly that. Ian: Exorbitant set up fees to set you up on a database. Neil: Don't get me wrong if there is transfer of an information there's usually sometimes it is a lot work that needs to be done in importing data from old databases into new ones. So yeah, you would probably be expecting. Ian: That is fair enough. Neil: You know, because if there is work involved like coming at it from the point of I'm a client, I have come to you. How much is the database is going to cost have we got one now. Yeah, but I have seen them charge like thousands for setup fees, thousands per year to use it. Ian: Charging per user. Neil: Charging per gig, grant a gig of data. Ian: Grant a gig, yeah. Neil: Grant a gig. Ian: Now, if you actually think gig is nothing. Neil: No. Ian: Especially when you talking about asbestos server reports. When you've got photos, you got plans, you've actually got observer reports themselves. You seem rattle through a gig for sure. Neil: So that's what the industry is charging. We don't charge that. Our database is provided free to our clients. If a client is using this for any element of their asbestos work then we provide them with a free database. Ian: It is a no brainer. Neil: Yeah, and the thing is, I mean it costs us. It cost us a lot of money. For us to setup a database we invested a lot of money, and thousands and thousands. Ian: Time. Neil: And time, oh my god, the time has been ridiculous. What was invested to get it to where it is now. But we are not looking to where we that cost because, I don't know, in my mind that's part of the service of what we do. I know where we are different in the rest of the industry because the rest of the industry are charging for outsourcing stuff. But in my mind, I mean that's what we write about in our book, wasn't it? The fact that you should be paying zeroes for your database because we are doing the work where data kind o…
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