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“Remember asbestos first, not last” – Neil Munro and Ian Stone.
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In this episode Neil and Ian answer a question sent in from the asbestos knowledge empire community. What's the difference between non licensed works and notifiable non licensed works? They provide examples of typical non licensed works, what may affect these and make them notifiable.
Transcript:
Ian: Welcome to Asbestos Knowledge Empire. I am Ian Stone.
Neil: And I'm Neil Munro. So today we are going to talk about, we have a question that came in from some of the Asbestos Knowledge Empire Facebook community and they ask what's the difference between non-licensed works and notifiable non-licensed works. And particularly attention between why does it change? So for instance why is the material that is non-licensed suddenly turn into a notifiable work? So we kind of want to answer those questions today. So essentially what it is, why is the material that is non-licensed during removal suddenly become notifiable? So why it's kind of cover that off in today's podcast. Just to kind of differentiate so we'll know where we're at. It is kind of the three levels of removal: non-licensed non-notifiable, non-licensed but notifiable, and then the fully licensed and fully notifiable asbestos work. The third category is for the higher risk, high fiber content stuffs such as logging, insulating boards, sprays, that types of stuff. We are not talking about that today. Today, we are talking about the lowest materials, the asbestos cement, the textured coatings, that kind of stuff. Aren't we?
Ian: Yeah, volatiles. It might be a cement flow pipe, those types of lower risk sort of asbestos bound of into matrix type of materials.
Neil: So first off, non-notifiable non-licensed removal would look like say a garage roof, cement garage roof, corrugated garage roof it's in a good condition upon reviewing the contract to has a look and decides that's not likely to disintegrate or deteriorate during the removal process. They can crop the bolts easily, removes the sheets easily, place them down and wrap them and essentially it is kind of like removing a cement sheet whole that is in a good condition.
Ian: Yup.
Neil: Minimal breakage, minimal risk kind of altogether really so that is non-licensed non-notifiable work.
Ian: Yeah, so to give you another example so you've got asbestos texture coating has been applied to a plaster board ceiling. Generally speaking the removal of that is the contractor won't remove as much as possible whole sheets of the plaster board, so they will be hoist from their fixings lifted down to the floor, wrapped up and disposed of. So it will be some breakage of the texture coating but it will be minimal.
Neil: Yeah, it is minimal because like you said the board and its hold and its entirety is pretty much removed.
Ian: Yeah, so essentially you are not removing really the actual asbestos product but more the product that has been applied to. So that would be classed as non-licensed. Now, to flip those two examples over so when would they become notfifiable?
Neil: Well, let's take the garage roof example for instance. If you look at the garage roof and before you start works it is already deteriorated. You can see it is notifiable. You can see it is damaged. You can see it looks brittle.
Ian: Yeah, one of those [unclear – 3:51] ones so it's really gone, you know, it's really been suffered severe damage from weather you know. It has been, had moss grown on it and it stands really deteriorated and become weak and brittle.
Neil: Yeah, so if you look at it and you think that will straight away, a lot of bell should ring because when you touch that, when you start man handling that you know it is going to breakup.
Ian: Yes, it is going to start. It is snapping in your hands really isn't it?
Neil: Yeah, so straight away that would become notifiable before the job starts.
Ian: Yeah, another example is if it was a roof that had been maybe I don't know over clad or it is been sometimes they used to apply, and I have seen this on a lot of domestics, where it is been uses shattering as well and you'd have to break the material out so that would then be classed as notifiable where you get some sort of machinery, maybe a small hand can go just to sort of break that material up. You are basically disturbing the matrix of the material and you degrade the actual asbestos material to actually remove it. So the texture coating example how would that become notifiable?
Neil: So again the texture coating, so the same asbestos material but it's been applied to a different scenario so for instance where you've got either a concrete ceiling or it's been applied to a wall, you know. That maybe a plastered wall or it may be a brick or [unclear – 5:08] wall.
Ian: So literally the texture coating straight on the surface of the wall not on plaster board or anything like that, straight unto the hard surface.
Neil: So it completely change the removal process because you can't remove it whole. You can't remove it on the whole sheet. You've not got to go into either a scrape pin or mechanical removal process. So if it's been applied to some plaster on the wall it is quite easy to sort of chip the plaster of but you have to use either hand tools or mechanical process to actually break that material off. And as you can imagine it is really sort of messy process. You are going to completely destroy the actual matrix of the asbestos material to get that off, that then just become a higher risk removal process. And for instance it's been applied to a concrete ceiling you are then looking at either using sort of removal gels, chemicals to obviously loosen that material off and it is literally just scraping off the surface so again you're completely breaking down the matrix of the asbestos material itself therefore making it a slightly higher risk removal process and therefore it falls into the notifiable class crew. Just a couple of examples of the difference between those. We've talked about the actual notification process so the works have to be notified before they are starting that, that could be anytime wherever it is a month, a week or even just five minutes before the works start. There is a couple of additional things at the actual contractor or the employer of the contractor need to do if it is undertaken notifiable works and that's medical surveillance and keeping the health records for those individuals. There is a bit more to it and generally speaking if you are employing non-licensed contractors definitely the works fall into notifiable category. You need to be asking are they suitable for doing those works because they are generally a little bit high risk. They are high risk I mean for both non-notifiable, notifiable works the contractor needs to have similar things in place as well which often get overlooked and I never spoke about this on previous podcast but just a bit of a recap, insurances, risk assessments, plans of works, face fit, testing for the guys and the masks.
Ian: You have to check in certified equipments. It is a real biggie, and you make sure there are DOP tests on the [unclear – 7:16] and stuff like that and that's really important. Because just going back to those jobs, you know, especially texture coating ones the removal process on those they are horrible jobs especially when you are using chemicals to remove it from the texture coating. These jobs are really horrible and they are messy.
Neil: It is labor intensive. It is literally a cold phase scraping it off.
Ian: Scraping it off because of the wet material it just goes everywhere. It flops everywhere. Now, if these contractors are not geared for that butt up work you can get into all sorts of problems with this texture coatings basically just goes everywhere. If it is not being [unclear – 7:48] the enclosure. Essentially you can't do those works really without if not full enclosure. So non-licensed, just normal standard non-licensed contractors, they are not generally geared up for building enclosures.
Neil: Unless you could point actually because when you think about it asbestos contractors that build enclosures day in and day out. It is cooler than art form. If anybody has ever had to go try a layout big thousand gauge pulley so it is meet or delete. It covers everything. It is a pain in the ass. It is a real real difficult.
Ian: Yeah, because you have to get the sheet in crisp because if you don't you get stuff stuck in place. It just corrects automatically.
Neil: Yeah, in the folds and the rest of it and then you take it all down and before you know they shit all over the floor because you didn't see it. Because literally that texture coating just goes everywhere, yeah. I would always recommend using the licensed contractor but particularly we're the notifiable non-licensed stuff. Again, ever more of a reason to use a licensed contractor. The set up for that they are geared up for it for any eventually whereas the non-licensed contractors if something does go wrong, or it does go right, not according to plan, well, they might have to stop the job and come back to it or get another contractor in which could be a pain because they are not set up for it.
Ian: And they are going to fold to the background knowledge as well. There is occasions where non-licensed works can slip into the licensed category depending on the material they are working on and the removal process. There are occasions where you can slip into that category. And if you've got a licensed contractor on the job they are going have to acknowledge the background. They are going to have previous experience in doing those works. They are going to have the air monitoring results to backup that up and they are professionals it's what they do day in and day out. Yeah, remember, asbestos first not last.
In this episode Neil and Ian deep dive into how to ensure you select the right asbestos contractor. Covering everything from licenses, accreditations, memberships and financial stability. Transcript: Ian: Welcome to Asbestos Knowledge Empire. I'm Ian Stone. Neil: I'm Neil Munro. Ian: So today we're looking at contractor competence and how to check it. Neil: Previously spoke about the [unclear – 01:12] sort of failures and stuffs of [unclear – 01:17] companies. Ian: So this is more removal contractors, asbestos remediation, asbestos removal works, all those type of contractors. They kind of fall into two categories, don't they, are they licensed or non-licensed? Neil: Yeah. Ian: Licensed contractors they are given a license from the health and safety executive to work on and with licensable asbestos materials. You need license if you're going to potentially exceed the control limit so it's kind of the work on the higher risk materials, higher percentage of asbestos would you say? Neil: Yeah, great risk there, more hazardous stuff such as pump installation, spray coatings, the removal of asbestos insulating board, that type of activity. Ian: And when I say they're given a license. I don't actually mean given. It is not like you go, "Can I have one?" They go, "Yeah, yeah." It is a little bit more complex than that. Neil: Yeah, they are externally verified by an inspector. Ian: Health and safety executive inspector. Neil: Has slightly changed very recently and they've gone to an online system which has cause quite a few problems and delays and I know of quite a few contractors that have actually nearly gone over their license renewal date. So yeah I think there has been some problems with that so it's just something to be aware of if you are employing a licensed contractor at this moment in time and their license is about to expire. It may be worth contacting them just to make sure everything is in place because there has been some delays in actually issuing that license. Ian: Yeah, and that's very good point actually because if you employ them to do a job halfway through the job their license expires. Well, if they don't get it renewed they can't trade, they can't work, so you are left with asbestos enclosure just sitting there on your site which kind of bugs everything. Neil: Yeah, because there's lots of checks that they go through. Isn't it? Ian: Yeah. They check also all your paperwork, all your procedures, following a license renewal, they do site visits as well and come and make sure that the supervisors, operatives are all working to your company's procedures because although the overarching kind of guidance is out there. Different companies do do different things. So need to make sure that the employees are doing what they should be doing. Neil: Yeah, definitely. Ian: One thing to check on is for additional conditions on a license. Neil: Yup. Ian: Now, there is always a standard to add conditions but sometimes some contractors are given additional conditions. Now, that could be because they've had a visit or the renewal process they weren't happy with something. Neil: Yup. For all the inspector probably have got an experience in a certain area. Ian: Yes, so for instance, I know of a company that they were required to send in audits every three months. Send an independent audit to the HSE because obviously Neil: They haven't had any maybe. Ian: Hadn't have any or there were doubts or concerns or something like that so that was a conditional license. And the conditions, let's say, it is usually something is pretty much gone array or there is no confidence there so that's why you should check for any additional conditions. Neil: It is not very common for clients to actually read the licenses. Is it? Ian: No, no. Neil: It is like okay you've got a certificate but do you actually read what's actually written on the certificate. Ian: It is like a driving license. If you compare it to a driving license… Neil: It looks the same. Ian: It looks the same. Everyone has got a driving license but actually is that a provisional, is it for motor bikes, is it for lorries, is it for towing? Exactly, there's all those different conditions on it so if you think of it along that similar manner that's why you should have a read through and check any conditions. Neil: Yeah, yeah. So with a licensed contractor you've got the HSE who are inspecting them their license granters. Is it [unclear – 04:43] and types of works. So what about non-licensed contractors? There is no kind of policing of those contractors. Ian: There is no licensed to trade in the non-licensed world. Neil: The regulations are still in place and they are governed by that but there is no sort of external body checking. Ian: That you are okay to do that. Neil: That you are okay to do that and you're competent and etcetera. Ian: The owners has placed on the employer. Neil: Yeah, exactly that. So what does non licensed contractors… what do they need to do? So what's that you can ask them have they go in place. Well, number one really is has that non-licensed contractor got the right risk assessments and method statements and plan of works, from the top works that you're trying to employ them for. Ian: Yeah, and it's a big one really. Neil: Can they actually identify the risk and have they got the procedures and work methods to actually do it correctly. Ian: Yeah, that's correct definitely, because when you think about the different types of work in non-licensed world they could be working on vinyl tiles, gaskets, roofs and they've all got their own elements of risks. Neil: Control methods. Ian: Yes, the control methods and different removal techniques. So you wouldn't use the same removal technique for floor tiles as you would have for roof. So you need to make sure that they've got that experience and the paperwork that backs it up. Neil: Definitely. And that kind of leads on to training doesn't it? Ian: Yes. Neil: So have they had the right training if they've had asbestos [unclear – 06:11] training that's not adequate for working with asbestos. So they would to have some form and evidence of this, non-licensed training. Ian: And it is the same for the licensed guys. The licensed contractors they need operative licensed supervisor training. Neil: And next, so once they've got that training, have they got the right personal protective equipment which includes your respirators, covers. Have they got the right equipment for the job? That's kind of a standard practice to have all that stuff in place with the licensed arena. You know, they've got all that stuff in place as a non-licensed contractor. And now they do regular checks on that so they check in the respirators and keep records of those. Ian: Our guys face it. Neil: Big one. So equipment, have they got the right equipment. So as a standard I would expect to see a HVAC vacuum cleaner. That's the standard contractor piece of equipment. Ian: That's DOP tested as well. Neil: Yes, and regularly done. Ian: Yeah, every six months. Neil: It was done when you bought it but the vacuum cleaners are five years old. Ian: That's been tested too. Neil: Which comes down to build a picture of this like not a lot of your average joe builders are going to have all this in place. Ian: No, and a lot of times you'll get a roofing company, other builder or a roofing company. They've only got asbestos as part of their job. Yeah, we will do that. It's only non licensed but when you actually look into it, look at their methods, all the rest of it, they haven't got PPA, RPA, insurance, trainings, face fits. It's kind of, yeah you can do manual lifting, cutting of the sheets all the rest of it. Neil: Taking it down and lumping it in. Ian: Yeah, but it is not being done properly. Neil: So this lead on to where else so proper disposing of the asbestos materials themselves they have to have this waste license. Ian: Yeah, waste carriers license for the vehicle. Neil: Or the only other way around that is they are using an external company [unclear – 08:05] Again, you need to be asking if they've got the waste carriers license. Ian: And that is kind of the split between the licensed and non-licensed. Non-licensed contractors you've got a lot more responsibility to check that all of these things are in place. Whereas if you use a licensed contractor and you do check their license and the other things like insurance and all those things as well. Because their license they have to have it all. So the licensed contractor really is kind of your safer option of employment competent contractor. Neil: Just to add on to the license, the biggie, I'm insured to do it. Ian: And that is massive. Insurance is a huge thing because any insurance company out there for builders, whatever it is they purposely exclude asbestos from the insurance. When asbestos goes wrong, it goes wrong in a big way and it cost a lot of money and that's why they exclude it, so again that is again just for covering your own ass, peace of mind, that's a biggie for you. Neil: Just a few points to add on to so that's a non-licensed contractor and taking normal non-licensed activities if the works are going to be notifiable. This is just a few extra points that those contractors have to take into account. Don't they? Ian: Yeah, they need to put a notification in before work starts which is different to the licensed. The licensed notification period is 14 days whereas the non-licensed stuff is before work starts, so that could be 14 days. It could be the morning of the work while they are sitting in the van before they start the job. It is just a form they have to fill on the HSE website completely all the information about how they are planning to tackle the job, do the job, etcetera. It just needs to go in before the work starts. Neil: Yes, and you also have to keep health records after the medicals for these operatives or anyone into taking their non-licensed works and be kept on record for those employees. So again, it is kind of like is joe builder doing all of that? I would question that. Ian: Definitely. But there are companies out there that are non-licensed. There are some roofing companies. They are fully aware of that and they fully comply with all of that. Neil: Yeah, but it is just something peace of mind to make sure that the non-licensed company using has got all that in place. Ian: Definitely. Neil: And where else can we look at to check competence? Ian: So I've look at any kind of accreditations. Neil: Yeah, certifications, accreditation schemes, ISOs. Ian: Yeah, and what this is kind of doing is this is building a picture of legitimacy of the company if they have prepared to jump through and we'll all know the hoops of ISO, and stuff like that. This will build a picture of if there are professional outfit, if they have got the 9001, 14001, anything like that. Neil: These are the schemes as well like [unclear – 10:52] Ian: ISSIPs so they kind of fall into the task and sub-contractor etcetera. They are all about assessing this sort of safety procedures and competency of not the asbestos element. Neil: The working element. Again if you're looking at a company that got these things it doesn't mean that they're [unclear – 11:14] and you're off the hook. But it does kind of hold your hand and takes you down the path a little bit of going, "You know what these guys, they have got X, or, what it means is they've got that badge because they've got the right things in place in that scheme. Insurances we cover that. I mean on both sides if there is insurance in place that are big one to also check is the actual amount of cover is in place for your site or for the project. Again, because some asbestos maybe jobs are millions of pounds worth in size. And I don't know you might have a site where you are working next to a big reactor or something and if that goes bad that could cost millions to put right. So again, you need those insurances in place to make sure if it does go wrong there is that cover there for you. Ian: Yeah, so we kind of talked about non-asbestos associations and accreditations, certifications. One to absolutely to look for is asbestos. Isn't it? Any memberships for that contractor because they are quite important especially on the contractor side because really they are the go to points for industry updates. They are kind of the voice of the industry and they are stirring the direction of policies because they are on various committees aren't they? I've seen you got more experience in and around that arena. What else do they sit on? Neil: Our current ATAC and ACAD all put forward members of the governing council or the management committee to sit on different things so there's the asbestos licensing unit. How often the meetings on this. I think they used to be quarterly. I don't know if they are monthly now or what but that's why you sit down with the licensing unit. Ian: And this is the HSE? Neil: It's the HSE so you sit in directly with the HSE as the voice of the industry sharing concerns, issues, things that you feel could be made better, all those types of things. So you're actually talking to the heads of the licensing unit. There are all sorts, on the ATAC side again there is other committees that you're involved with and you sit on and again you represent your members, the member voices of the industry. Ian: Yeah, and then the outcomes of those discussions are cascaded through to the members? Neil: Yes. Ian: So if you are a member of those trade associations you're going to be kept up to date. Neil: You've got a toe in of what's coming. That's what they used to do, that's what I used to do of you'd go to these meetings, have discussions. And if it does look like things might be going one way or whatever then we would share that around the regional meetings with the members, discuss to them kind of relay implications and things like that. So if you are using a contractor that's a member of one of those. Like I said they've got toe in of what's coming, whereas the contractor that isn't a member of one of them well how they are getting that information? Where are they pulling that information from? Ian: It is definitely a lot harder to sort all that information individually yourself. It is something obviously to look for. Doesn't mean to say that there are going to be a better contractor but also as part of that membership they are externally audited. So again it is not you have got an independent member or authority going out, looking and understanding of those works. Neil: You've got to meet the criteria. If you don't meet the criteria you don't become a member of ARCA. If you are a member of ARCA and whilst you're a member of ARCA if you don't meet the criteria of the audits, again, you are kicked out. Again, there are kind of standards in place that go again to give you more reassurance that your contractor is competent. Ian: And one thing to be obviously be aware of is if a contractor was ARCA just double check that they've still got that because they do kick non-compliant, non-performing contractors out. So if they have not meet their criteria they will kick them out. Neil: Yeah, they might the badge on their website, on their paperwork but they've not taken it down so they are actually saying they are a member. That goes the same with all of it. Like HSE license you can go online on the HSE website and check the license number against the license hold…
Full show notes at the publisherIn this episode Ian and Neil are joined by asbestos expert Paul Knights as he shares his opinion and knowledge surrounding the asbestos industry and asbestos management in general.
Paul Knights as over 20 year's experience working within the asbestos consultancy and asbestos removal industry.
Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/paul-knights-1601673b/
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