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Above the Law – Thinking Like a Lawyer

Thinking Like A Lawyer is a podcast featuring Above the Law’s Joe Patrice and Kathryn Rubino. Each episode, the hosts will take a topic experienced and enjoyed by regular people, and shine it through the prism of a legal framework. This will either reveal an awesome rainbow of thought, or a disorienting kaleidoscope of issues. Either way, it should be fun.

Latest Episodes:

That's Not What We Meant By Remote Work Sep 01, 2021

Big firms are experimenting with hybrid and flexible office models in the hopefully waning days of COVID. And there's a lot of momentum behind transitioning this into a permanent 3- or 4-day work week long term. Except there are some of you out there screwing this up for the rest of us and intentionally not getting the vaccine in an effort to stay home thereby confirming why some firms think everyone needs to be forced back to the office. We also discuss the sentencing -- if you can even call it that -- of the South Dakota AG who killed a man several months ago. And Joe talks about legal technology and Las Vegas for a bit.

Special thanks to our sponsors, Lexicon and Nota.

Not A Great Look For Law Professors Aug 25, 2021

On the latest episode of Thinking Like A Lawyer, Kathryn is joined by Above the Law assistant editor Chris Williams while Joe heads to the latest legal tech conference. Chris and Kathryn discuss the English lawyer who died from COVID, but not before he took to social media to decry the vaccine and downplay the risk of COVID. They also chat about the law professor (from ASS Law, because of course) that sued over a vaccine mandate. And, seriously, why is it so damn hard for law professors to avoid saying the N-word??

Special thanks to our sponsors, Lexicon and Nota.

How Much Would Biglaw Have To Pay You To Stay? Aug 18, 2021

As demand for transactional lawyers continues to rise, one firm is reportedly offering big bonuses to attorneys willing to stick it out in key practice areas. Rudy Giuliani is now on Cameo in case you were looking for the gift no one wanted. And in-house counsel didn’t have as good a year as they’re used to.

Special thanks to our sponsors, Lexicon and Nota.

It's Always The Law Professors You Think It's Going To Be Aug 11, 2021

Joe and Kathryn chat about the lawsuit against George Mason University brought by GMU Law School -- better known by their unfortunately chosen name "ASSLaw" -- law professor Todd Zywicki over his refusal to get vaccinated. It's a remarkably unimpressive complaint. Cravath, in the midst of many changes, announces a new flexible office work policy based around a floating 6 remote work days per month. Could this become the new normal? And Rudy Giuliani is still broadcasting to the world that he works at Greenberg Tarurig. Maybe he means Greenberg Traurig Total Landscaping?

Special thanks to our sponsors, Lexicon and Nota.

Cooler Heads Prevail? Aug 04, 2021

Joe and Kathryn discuss bar exam horror stories. The last -- hopefully -- pandemic bar exam continued to bring calamity and examiners seem largely unfazed that applicants are being put through glitches and computer crashes over it. Amy Chua remains in the headlines, but this time because rumors suggest that the school might punish students for meeting with her. And we talk about more Biglaw firm reopenings after one firm announced that they'll be cutting off building ID cards for the unvaccinated.

Special thanks to our sponsors, Lexicon and Nota.

When Judges Attack Jul 28, 2021

Irritating judges isn't recommended, but it really went off the rails for a couple of lawyers in the past few days. In Missouri, an attorney told off a judge and landed himself a week in jail. In NY, a lawyer kept picking at a federal judge long enough that the judge absolutely lost it on him. We also talk about the pervert calling libraries across the country asking them to read him a Supreme Court case while he masturbates. And we talk about firm office reopenings -- is it time for firms to pull the trigger and start mandating vaccines?

Special thanks to our sponsors, Lexicon and Nota.

Clients Need To Mind Their Own Business About Returning To The Office Jul 21, 2021

There are limits to the customer always being right. Special thanks to our sponsors, Lexicon and Nota.

The Greatest Legal Research Hack Jul 14, 2021

Why spend all that money on fancy legal research tools? Special thanks to our sponsors, Lexicon and Nota.

Supremely Disappointing Jul 07, 2021

Get used to this out of the Supreme Court. Special thanks to our sponsors, Lexicon and Nota.

So, You're Saying Billing To Non-Existent Matters Is Frowned Upon? Jun 30, 2021

This was a doozy of an ethical issue spotter. Special thanks to our sponsors, Lexicon and Nota.

Supreme Court Treats NCAA Like Amateurs Jun 23, 2021

That wasn't even close. Special thanks to our sponsors, Lexicon and Nota.

Associate Pay Jumps To $205K Jun 16, 2021

In case you were doubting how hot the legal market is. Special thanks to our sponsors, Lexicon and Nota.

FedSoc Babies Won't Stop Whining Jun 09, 2021

They tried to keep a student from graduating... next year they'll be writing your laws! Special thanks to our sponsors, Lexicon and Nota.

No One's Where They Expected To Be Jun 02, 2021

The legal industry is changing in unexpected ways this year. Special thanks to our sponsors, LexisNexis® InterAction®, Lexicon and Nota.

Summer Vacations? Maybe Not For Lawyers May 26, 2021

Firms changing up vacation policies worrying associates. Special thanks to our sponsors, LexisNexis® InterAction®, Lexicon and Nota.

Yes, You Still Need To Check Your Zoom Name Before Logging In May 19, 2021

You'd think after a year of this, people would be better at it. Special thanks to our sponsors, LexisNexis® InterAction®, Lexicon and Nota.

Law School Professor Just Won't Stop Begging To Use Racial Slurs May 12, 2021

At a certain point, you have to wonder why he's willing to keep charging up this hill. Special thanks to our sponsors, LexisNexis® InterAction®, Lexicon and Nota.

Rudy Giuliani Is The Dumbest Lawyer Ever, Right? May 05, 2021

Obviously, we're not advocating for spoliation of evidence or obstruction of justice, but... shouldn't Rudy Giuliani of all people known not to keep evidence of crimes around? He used to run the DOJ office that's investigating his buddies! Meanwhile, the California bar exam gets caught breaking its own rules and the Pennsylvania bar president gets caught trying to protect himself from extortion. Special thanks to our sponsors, LexisNexis® InterAction®, Lexicon and Nota.

Don't Throw Clients Under The Bus, Unless They're Protesters Apr 28, 2021

And if you do, can we interest you in this souvenir hat? Special thanks to our sponsors, LexisNexis® InterAction®, Lexicon and Nota.

Are Billing Rates Too Darn High? Apr 21, 2021

It probably depends on who we're talking about. Special thanks to our sponsors, LexisNexis® InterAction®, Lexicon and Nota.

The First As Tragedy, Then As Farce Apr 14, 2021

Yale Law School seems to have a recurring issue.

Does The T14 Even Matter? Asking For Some Hoyas. Apr 07, 2021

US News drops Georgetown from top tier.

What Does It Mean To Be A Market Leader? Mar 31, 2021

Keeping up with the competition matters.

Springtime For Biglaw Bonuses Mar 24, 2021

The party continues.

Are We Still Citing Judge Kozinski As An Expert? Mar 17, 2021

The former federal judge resigned in disgrace... but he's still a media darling.

Who Wins The Jingle War: Cellino Or Barnes? Mar 10, 2021

Each half of the former firm has a new phone number.

No, You Can't Do That Mar 03, 2021

Seriously, we told you people you can't do that.

Elie Mystal's Back: The Prodigal Podcast Host Returns Feb 24, 2021

200th Episode Spectacular!!!

Unfiltered Legal Talk! Uncatfiltered Anyway Feb 17, 2021

We're not live but also not cats.

The Ecstasy And The Agony Of Pandemic Law Feb 10, 2021

Everything wrapped into one.

Text Is Really Only Part Of Context Feb 03, 2021

Adventures in impeachment linguistics!

Rudy's Dominion Defamation Dollars Debacle Jan 27, 2021

When will all of this election fallout finally end?

An Impeachment So Nice They Did It Twice Jan 20, 2021

The second impeachment of Trump's tenure raises easily answered questions.

Coup Coup Ka-Choo Jan 13, 2021

Too bad it was such a slow news week...

Foley & Lardner's Wild Week Jan 06, 2021

The firm says Cleta Mitchell went rogue, but that's only the start of their issues.

Finally, We're Finished With 2020 Dec 30, 2020

Things have to get better from here, right?

No Second 'Chances' Dec 23, 2020

You can have a second act, but you don't get a consequence-free mulligan.

I Wonder If The Big City Lawyer Will Choose Love Or Career?!?!? Dec 16, 2020

It's made-for-cable holiday movie season, so we tackle the burning question.

'Tis The Season For Law School Exam Screw Ups Dec 09, 2020

Also, what to get for the lawyer that has no time for anything.

Ready... Aim... Bonuses! Dec 02, 2020

Biglaw, law school, and firing squads all in one show.

What Would Be Better Than The Bar Exam? Nov 25, 2020

As it turns out, there are a lot of better ideas out there.

Jones Day Bets On Donald Trump As Half-Baked Election Challenges Crumble Nov 18, 2020

Could this be the beginning of a mass exodus?

Welcome To Four Seasons Legal Podcast Nov 11, 2020

Sometimes, you just need to protect your IP better.

Have You Tried Editing Your Opinions, Your Honor? Nov 03, 2020

Someone screwed up bigly.

Toobingate Was Only Last Week Oct 28, 2020

Time flies when you're surveying the apocalypse.

Clio Cloud Conference Provides The Pulse Of The Profession Oct 20, 2020

Joe chats with Clio CEO Jack Newton in the midst of his virtual conference.

Biglaw Bonuses Belong In Associate Pockets, Not Partner Coffers Oct 13, 2020

Courts, law firms, and bar exams, oh my!

Some Supremely Useful Advice Oct 06, 2020

Obviously Trump's biggest mistake with ACB involved causing a White House superspreader event, but we didn't know that when we recorded this week's show. So we spend some time talking about his other mistake -- nominating ACB before the election and giving "never Trumpers" everything they want and leaving them with zero incentive to reelect him. We also discuss the wave of Fall bonuses among Biglaw firms and more importantly, the firms that aren't joining the party and what it means for the legal landscape

On The Passing Of Ruth Bader Ginsburg Sep 29, 2020

A conversation with Neal Katyal about the late justice.

Begun The Bonus War Has Sep 22, 2020

What was a nice trickle has turned into a tsunami. Law firms are falling over themselves to hand out big time bonuses to associates to show the world how they've weathered COVID. And yet some firms are being forced to admit that they aren't able to keep up with the Biglaw Joneses. Speaking of Joneses, we also check in on a Jones Day associate likely bound for the federal bench despite all normal rules of the profession.

An Election So Nice, You Should Vote TWICE! (No, You Shouldn’t) Sep 15, 2020

Professor Rick Hasen of UCI Law and the Election Law Blog joins us to talk all things election. Following up on his new book Election Meltdown we cover dangerous media expectations, vote-by-mail rules, how ballots are processed, the "Blue Shift" and the impact COVID is having on an already strained election system.

The Screwball Antics Of The Department Of Justice Sep 08, 2020

One of America's most venerable legal institutions has fallen into rank buffoonery and it's genuinely tragic to watch. From Bill Barr declaring racism over -- except on college campuses -- to a stumbling effort to get Michael Flynn out of his own sworn testimony, Joe is joined by ATL and Wonkette columnist Liz Dye to discuss what's gone wrong over there. And we check in on Kyle Rittenhouse's legal team who've made some... let's just say "interesting" strategic decisions.

Who Really Cares About The Hatch Act? Sep 01, 2020

If you watched the Republican National Convention, you heard a lot of coverage about the Hatch Act and the constant stream of violations occurring on live television. But does anyone really care about this? Maybe more to the point, is the law so over broad that it's blunted its own impact? We also check in on Yale Law School where a prominent professor is suspended for two years after an internal investigation into sexual harassment allegations.

Becoming A Bar Exam Whiz... Literally Aug 25, 2020

Examinees across the pond give us a preview of the October exam process by urinating in bottles as proctors refuse to allow bathroom breaks. In case you were wondering if the bar exam fiasco could get any worse, there's your answer. Meanwhile Kirkland & Ellis faces a new discrimination suit, and we chat about the Supreme Court and the election a little bit.

Ain't No Party Like A COVID Party Aug 18, 2020

As law schools return, one student gets a stern warning about a COVID kegger, law firms get a new ranking, and an unqualified judge issues the sort of baseless decision that landed him on the bench in the first place. A rundown of the week that was in legal news.

That Took A Threatening Turn Aug 11, 2020

America's bar examination authorities have turned to threatening Character & Fitness repercussions for their critics marking a new, darker phase of the bar exam drama. How in the world did it come to this? Also, we talk about Kanye's double agent attorney and PACER gets a slap from the federal courts.

Firms Slowly Begin To Return To Normal Pay Aug 04, 2020

It may be too early to declare the legal profession back to normal, but we've now seen some major law firms reverse course on cost cutting and even announce some bonuses. Meanwhile, it took all of a couple hours for the in-person bar exam experiment to net its first positive COVID test.

It's Bar Exam Time! Jul 28, 2020

Multiple states are going forward with the test this week. Good luck to everyone.

The Fight For Diploma Privilege Jul 21, 2020

This week, Joe chats with Dr. Pilar Escontrias, Donna Saadati-Soto, Efrain Hudnell, and Emily Croucher, co-founders of United for Diploma Privilege. Follow them @DiplomaPriv4All.

Chief Justice Hits His Head And Remembers Rule Of Law Jul 14, 2020

The Supreme Court year is finally over.

When Attorneys Attack! Jul 07, 2020

It was an eventful week in legal news, but the biggest story was definitely the St. Louis personal injury attorneys who pulled guns on protesters and why lawyers have special obligations to maintain professionalism at all times. All that and more of the major stories of the week.

Addressing Law School Racism & Neomi Rao's School Of Legal Writing Don'ts Jun 30, 2020

A new account compiles the acts of racism that compound at Harvard Law School, but they could emanate from almost any law school. We take a look at this account and the response of law schools around the country to recent events, including one law school that's taking an aggressive anti-racism stance. Also, we discuss Neomi Rao's Michael Flynn opinion which left a lot to be desired as a work of professional legal writing.

A Wild Week At The Supreme Court Jun 23, 2020

A decidedly conservative Supreme Court made discrimination against the LGBTQ community illegal and then turned around and wiped out the Trump Administration's effort to cancel DACA. What was in the water last week? Joe and Kathryn break down why the opinions weren't nearly as revolutionary as the results they brought might make them seem.

Explaining Michael Flynn's Case To Non-Lawyers And Other Challenges Jun 16, 2020

With an independent report by a federal judge branding the Department of Justice "corrupt" this seems like a good time to revisit exactly how we got here. Your elderly aunt on Facebook has a lot to say about Michael Flynn and most of it is wrong. Joe and Kathryn unpack the case and also discuss the case of a lawyer who egged a judge's car.

As Law Firms Self-Reflect, State Bar Exams Double Down Jun 09, 2020

As law firms struggle to demonstrate to clients and their own attorneys that they take societal ills seriously, Kathryn's starting to notice some patterns in the statements getting released. Meanwhile, Joe is covering the state bar exams, where many are continuing to insist on shoving hundreds of people into small rooms in July and making applicants sign away their rights for the privilege of exposing themselves to disease.

Guns, Germs, And Section 230 Internet Regulation Jun 02, 2020

Lawyers are pulling guns over facemasks? That... seems excessive. But here we are staring into the COVID abyss again. Austerity measures continue throughout the industry, lawyers are getting edgy, and a new assault on "the law that built the internet" issues from the White House.

Why Business Development Is Every Lawyer's Problem May 26, 2020

Joe speaks with David Ackert, host of The Market Leaders Podcast about the role of business development in the legal profession. Lawyers may not love the hustle, but it's the basis of a service industry and lawyers at every level have a role to play in building their future opportunities. And it's not just a challenge for attorneys -- firms need to build a culture that maximizes respect for attorney business development too.

Wait, Lawyers Talk Smack? May 19, 2020

Things are still closed down, which means we've not had an opportunity to haunt the halls of an event center with the usual legal community suspects for a while, so let's see what's going on out there. It's time to catch up with Keith Lee, founder of LawyerSmack, about the private community of lawyers he's built up over the years and the trends he's observed participating in these conversations with lawyers from all sectors coming together to connect.

Law Students And Dealing With COVID-19 May 12, 2020

Joe chats with Johnnie Nguyen, the National Chair of the ABA Law Student Division about the wide-ranging issues facing law students in the midst of the pandemic and how the ABA is addressing those concerns.

Bringing Lawyers Together Under Lockdown May 05, 2020

The legal industry can still get together to learn and socialize.

Searching The Unknown Reaches Of The State Docket Apr 28, 2020

Trellis is turning the state court system into something lawyers can really use.

State Of The Industry After A Month Of Coronavirus Apr 21, 2020

A lot has changed since the middle of March.

For Clients, It's Important To Pay Bills On Time Too Apr 14, 2020

Long pay cycles aren't just a problem for outside counsel.

In Extraordinary Times, Lawyers Need Creative Solutions Apr 07, 2020

The power of flexibility.

Law Schools Struggle With COVID Response Mar 31, 2020

Joe and Kathryn check in from the Above the Law bunker to discuss law schools and the virus. While many schools quickly adopted pass/fail grading options others have held out, hoping to maintain some sense of normalcy. Are there really employers who will look back at Spring 2020 grades and think they're informative?

Building A Video Game Practice Mar 24, 2020

Since we last spoke, this guest has leveled up.

Crushing It On Test Prep Mar 19, 2020

Joe chats with Adam Balinski, founder of Crushendo, a test prep program focused on maximizing human memory. Auditory courses with a strong emphasis on tried and true memory hacks like location association and mnemonic devices, all worked into short, repeatable episodes you can listen to while going about your day.

Mixed Martial Law Mar 10, 2020

Joe welcomes back Jason Cruz from our earlier "Step Inside The Octagon" episode to discuss his new book "Mixed Martial Arts and the Law". From antitrust to labor law to performance enhancing drugs, there's a lot more law going into this sport than you might expect for a cage match where people kick each other in the face.

The Psychology of Document Review Feb 25, 2020

Dealing with thousands of documents presents a lot of challenges.

Election Law Special With Rick Hasen Feb 18, 2020

Discussing Iowa and the challenges to American democracy.

What's Up With Alan Dershowitz These Days Feb 04, 2020

After taking the spotlight in the impeachment trial... should we have all seen this coming?

Speaking Of Legal Farce Jan 28, 2020

Checking in on Elie after a solid week of watching wall to wall impeachment coverage and the wear of the marathon coverage is starting to show. There's not much "legal" about this trial, but we're going to parse through what we can. We also talk a little about Tulsi Gabbard's high stakes defamation suit against Hillary Clinton for calling the Hawaii representative a Russian asset. As a lawsuit it may not come together, but does Gabbard have a moral point?

Life On The Other Side Of The V Jan 21, 2020

Joe and Elie chat with Edelson PC about the tech-oriented plaintiff and class action firm's work from protecting biometric privacy rights to addressing sexual misconduct in youth sports with partner Chris Dore and associates Aaron Lawson and Sydney Janzen.

Non-Equity Means Non-Partner Jan 14, 2020

More and more firms are adopting a non-equity partner tier, delaying equity consideration while extracting maximum value from high billing but relatively lowly paid senior attorneys tied to the job by the dangling hope of a future promotion that may never arrive.

In Memoriam... To All The Law Firms We Lost Last Decade Jan 08, 2020

With the 2010s wrapping up, Joe and Kathryn focus on all the law firms we've lost over the last decade. Industry pressures, bad strategies, and fraud allegations managed to put several former mainstays to rest over the last 10 years. What lessons can we take from the demise of these once-proud firms? Where is this whole profession heading? Will this next recession finish off what 2009 started?

The Top Stories of 2019 Dec 30, 2019

To close out the year, Joe runs down the top 10 stories of the year at Above the Law. Are there key insights or interesting trends to be gained from reviewing the site’s traffic figures? Probably not, but here we are.

Impeachapalooza Dec 23, 2019

The president of the United States was impeached for only the third time in history. Let the obscure legal theorizing begin! Joe and Elie break down the curious argument that the House doesn’t even need to hand over the articles.

The Happiest Time Of The Year: Bonus Time! Dec 17, 2019

It's bonus season in Biglaw, and the major firms are slowly but surely rolling out their bonus announcements and telling associates what they'll be getting in their stockings this year. But Elie sees a bit of a Scrooge in the early first move and slow matching cycle. What's going on with the legal market and are we really looking at a recession in the making?

The One Thing That Might Force Law Schools To Be More Practical Dec 10, 2019

The "practice-ready" law school model is oft-discussed and rarely implemented, but maybe technology will finally force law schools to focus on teaching practical skills. Joe and Kathryn chat with Jessica Robinson, Vice President of Client Services at Casepoint about the maturation of the eDiscovery process, the project management lessons that fuel effective discovery, and the importance of learning the theory of discovery before entering an increasingly automating practice.

Fighting For The Innocent (Rebroadcast) Dec 03, 2019

Mark Godsey discusses his conversion to an advocate for the wrongfully convicted and his grasp of the psychology that consistently lands the wrong people in prison.

The Roberts Court Is Here Nov 26, 2019

With Kavanaugh's arrival, the last Term provided a glimpse of the fully armed and operational Roberts Court.

Preparing For The Bar Exam -- The Last Test You'll Ever Take Nov 19, 2019

Joe and Elie chat with Rich Douglas, COO of Themis, about the bar exam and how to conquer it. Rich also tells us about the Themis Law School Essentials program of free review materials for law school courses and we discuss the impact the GRE is going to have on law school admissions.

Making The Profession Work For Military Spouses Nov 12, 2019

With Veteran's Day this week, we decided to focus on a group that faces professional hurdles that most lawyers don't. Attorneys married into the military find themselves moving around the country or overseas every couple of years, which presents a problem in a practice still largely geographically fixed.

Birds, Books, And Blogs. Oh My! Nov 05, 2019

There's a bird loose in the Harvard Law School library, prompting Joe and Elie to have an impromptu debate over whether or not libraries are still essential in a world of digital research. Speaking of the internet, Deadspin's entire staff resigned last week and the duo discuss the legal and policy implications of the blogosphere's loss. Labor law, private equity business models, the bankruptcy code... it's all involved in the otherwise straightforward demise of a venerable publication.

Let's Get Wildly Off Topic Oct 29, 2019

This week's discussion of law firm growth trajectories never gets to happen as Elie's irritation with Trump's lawyers spills into the entire show. Becoming a bag man for the Ukraine deal raises ethical concerns, but is merely representing Trump an ethical problem? More to the point, is it something bar disciplinary committees should really be looking into?

Law School Students Need To Figure Out Where They're Going To Work Oct 22, 2019

With offers for summer employment going out to law students around the country, Thinking Like A Lawyer unveils its annual "The Offer" series. If you're wondering which of your offers you should take, Joe and Elie are happy to anonymously discuss them. Just send them to tips@abovethelaw.com subject line "The Offer." In the meantime, here are some general thoughts on the job hunt process.

The Challenges Facing In-House Counsel In 2019 Oct 15, 2019

Joe and Elie discuss the in-house world. Lawyers and law students often daydream about what they perceive as the cushy world of going in-house. But these lawyers face their own challenges. A recent comprehensive survey of corporate legal departments reveals confusion over privacy requirements and complaints over outside counsel costs.

Lawyers On TV Oct 08, 2019

Joe and Kathryn have a spontaneous chat about lawyers on television. From game shows to reality competitions, lawyers were all over the place last week. In a sense though, aren't these shows metaphors for the legal profession? No, they're probably not -- but that's not going to stop us from trying to explain how they might be.

Sure Impeachment Is Serious, But Look At This Lawyer Cat! Oct 01, 2019

Brazil has officially made a cat an attorney and this week Kathryn and Joe explore the feline's new career serving as both legal mascot and a symbolic advocate for animal legal concerns in the country. Meanwhile, Elie tries to speculate about impeachment and mostly fails because who cares about hearings that haven't even started yet when there's A LAWYER CAT TO TALK ABOUT!

The Opioid Suits Sep 25, 2019

Joe and Elie are joined by Alaric Dearment of MedCity News to discuss the legal framework surrounding the opioid lawsuits. How does something like this become a stunning breakdown of regulation in the face of industry greed? This is your overview.

Revenge Is A Dish Best Not Served To Guests In Weil's Cafeteria Sep 17, 2019

Joe and Kathryn discuss the top stories of the week at Above the Law including the rise and fall of Judge Posner's pro se organization, Weil Gotshal's cafeteria cold shoulder, and the California Bar's good news. Plus we talk a bit about Emory's struggles with racial slurs. Just another week in the annals of the legal industry.

The Many, Many Obstacles To Biglaw Diversity Sep 10, 2019

Kathryn Rubino joins Joe for a discussion of the latest Mansfield Rule efforts and the problem of lagging Biglaw diversity generally. From reputational rankings to deequitization to bar exam shenanigans the obstacles to building a truly diverse workforce in law are more baked into the system than current reforms seem able to handle.

When Are Lawyers To Blame For Their Clients? Sep 03, 2019

With election season prematurely upon us, lawyers across the country will gear up to run for office, and their opponents will gear up to bash them for the clientele they've served. Should lawyers ever be criticized for zealously defending clients? Is the justice system undermined if attorneys feel some clients are too toxic to represent?

From the Archives: The Future of the Law Firm (Rebroadcast) Aug 27, 2019

Disclaimer: This episode was originally aired on Dec 11, 2018.The International Legal Technology Association's annual conference came and went this past week, so we were unable to record a podcast. But we have a treat from the archives -- a conversation with Intapp board member and all-around law firm business expert Ralph Baxter about what the future holds for law firms.

Scintillating Sports Law Takes Aug 20, 2019

As we prepare to enter another football season, Elie and Joe discuss some high-profile sports law stories making the rounds and focus on the most important intellectual property question that you would have thought was too dumb to ask: can you trademark the word, "the"?

Would You Rather? But Legal Aug 13, 2019

Joe and Elie address some hypothetical situations about the legal industry and discuss which path they'd rather take knowing what they know. Imagine Thinking Like A Lawyer's "The Decision" series helping students choose a law school, but applied to a bunch of random legal questions.

What A Week In Legal News Aug 06, 2019

Joe and Kathryn do another rapidfire rundown of the biggest stories in legal news this week. Bar exam horror stories! Jones Day's salary and discrimination suit woes! The imminent collapse of a national Biglaw firm! All that and more. Plus sound effects!!!

Breaking Down The Mueller Hearings Jul 30, 2019

Joe and Elie watched some of these hearings everyone's talking about and break down some of the key legal issues that got lost in the spectacle. This is just what happens when a careful, conscientious attorney tries to talk to a bunch of local dry cleaner magnates who've managed to fall backward into Congress and then it all gets ciphered by talking heads churning a 24-hour news cycle.

Academia Means Never Having To Say, 'I Got Fired' Jul 23, 2019

Joe and Elie react to the news that UPenn Law School's Amy Wax has stepped up her efforts to be noticed by right-wing media by appearing at a "nationalism" conference and explicitly stating, that America would be "better off with more whites and fewer nonwhites." Who is this Amy Wax person, and why does she still have a job at this point? The answer is a toxic blend of tenure and cowardice.

Jeffrey Epstein's Legal Aftermath Jul 16, 2019

Joe and Elie discuss Alex Acosta's resignation, Alan Dershowitz's underwear and more while covering the lawyers whose careers could end up demolished by their proximity to the Jeffrey Epstein. At every step lawyers enabled Epstein and as the SDNY brings new charges against him, a lot of lawyers are starting to face the music.

All Those Lower Courts You've Been Sleeping On Jul 09, 2019

Joe and Elie talk about the court system in the nation and the lower courts that no one usually talks about.

An Independence Day Lesson In Interviewing Jul 02, 2019

Joe and Elie are off for the Independence Day holiday but wanted to leave you with something to listen to while you enjoy your holiday. Last year, we spoke with Vanderbilt Law School’s Associate Director of Career Services Nick Alexiou to discuss the on-campus interviewing process. A good guide for those of you preparing for the interview of your lives.

Facing Consequences And Moving On Jun 25, 2019

Admissions consultant Hanna Stotland stops by to talk about Kyle Kashuv's now-revoked Harvard admission -- why it was the right move for Harvard and where Kashuv can go from here. Stotland's practice focuses on students facing admissions hurdles -- generally of their own making. We discuss Kashuv's case, Title IX, and why it might be easier to get back on track as a former drug addict.

So Many Mistakes, So Little Time Jun 18, 2019

Joe and Kathryn come back with another edition of legal topics: Alan Dershowitz, Brett Kavanaugh's Supreme Court clerk hiring, and many more.

Making Legal Technology Intuitive Jun 11, 2019

Joe and Elie chat with Ryan Steadman of Zero about legal technology and how to drive adoption among a profession that's notoriously averse to tech.

Checking In On The Plaintiffs' Side May 28, 2019

With all the Biglaw news to cover, we sometimes forget about the high-stakes plaintiffs' side firms out there. So this week, we're checking in with Jay Edelson of Edelson, a "plaintiffs' class action powerhouse," as Law360 puts it, involved in matters as disparate as electronic privacy, college football safety, and the California wildfires. Edelson also talks about one of the all-time law firm pranks he pulled off...

Around the Gavel May 21, 2019

Elie remains missing in action (crying about Game of Thrones) so Joe and Kathryn are left to do another ESPN inspired legal podcast -- do not encourage these two to do 45 minutes of NFL takes as if teams are SCOTUS justices. So this is "Around the Gavel." Some new takes and a different sound effect or two because we've heard the air horn is problematic on a freeway, Sorry.

Pardon The Injunction May 07, 2019

Elie is out of town, so Joe and guest host Kathryn Rubino take a page out of ESPN's playbook and offer a PTI-inspired roundup of the week's legal news items in short, two-minute bursts. There's even an air horn.

Law School Decision 2019 (Part II) Apr 30, 2019

Joe and Elie continue to offer their answers on questions they've received from prospective law students asking “where should I go to school?” Balancing regional offers? Trying to decide what market to practice in? Choosing between the murky world of "just below T14"? Tune in and hear our advice on how to properly manage the law school adventure.

Law School Decision 2019 (Part I) Apr 23, 2019

We finally set aside some time to discuss the questions we've received from prospective law students asking "where should I go to school?" Choosing between T14 heavies? We can handle that. Weighing different scholarship packages? We've got that too. Tune in and hear our advice on how to properly manage the law school adventure.

Biglaw Continues To Struggle With Gender Equity Apr 16, 2019

Kathryn Rubino joins Joe to discuss the recent lowlights in Biglaw gender equity. From MoFo's curious strategic response to allegations that it maintains a "mommy track" for female career advancement to Jones Day... doing Jones Day stuff, women are still struggling to get an even shake when it comes to major law firms.

The Odd Couple Mar 26, 2019

After George Conway's most recent salvo against Donald Trump, Joe and Elie discuss the curious relationship of the senior Wachtell lawyer and Trump's senior aide. Is it possible that lawyers make for more harmonious relationships? The gang also discusses the Mueller Report one day before its release. See how the predictions match up with reality!

Giving It The Old College Scam Try Mar 19, 2019

Let’s just talk about this college admissions scandal shall we? While everyone else is talking about Aunt Becky, Willkie Farr’s co-Managing Partner (and former Thinking Like A Lawyer guest) Gordon Caplan is also caught up in this whole scandal.

Bonus Podcast: Prosecution v. Defense and the Realities of ‘Proven Innocent’ Mar 15, 2019

Jerry Buting and former Jefferson Parish prosecutor Jackie Maloney square off for a heated debate about the prosecution versus defense and how the portrayals on FOX TV’s ‘Proven Innocent’ compare to reality.

Law School Rankings Recap Mar 12, 2019

The US News and World Report law school rankings have been leaked, and the gang breaks down who's on top and who's making big moves -- both good and bad -- in this year's rankings. Joe and Elie also have an extended discussion about racist cars, specifically what to make of a new report suggesting that self-driving cars are more likely to strike African-American pedestrians.

Bonus Podcast: Exploring The Tragedy Of Wrongful Convictions At The Heart Of FOX's 'Proven Innocent.' Feb 22, 2019

As a special bonus, Joe and Elie are doing a series of podcasts about FOX’s new legal drama “Proven Innocent”. In this second installment, we speak with show creator and Stanford Law graduate David Elliot, California Innocence Project lawyer Michael Semanchik, and exoneree Jason Strong, who spent 15 years in prison for a crime he didn’t commit. “Proven Innocent” airs Fridays at 9/8c on FOX.

Democracy Is Troublingly Fragile Feb 19, 2019

Joe and Elie chat with Ian Bassin, the Executive Director of Protect Democracy about the unfortunately pressing task of defending democratic institutions from creeping authoritarianism. Protect Democracy is on the front lines challenging both federal and state governments as they chip away at participatory democracy and constitutional limits. As a special bonus -- in the middle of the episode breaking news results in the guest beginning the process of filing suit on the spot. So that's cool.

Bonus Podcast: Proven Innocent Feb 15, 2019

As a special bonus, Joe and Elie will be doing a series of podcasts about “FOX’s new legal drama “Proven Innocent” premiering tonight at 9/8 Central. In this episode we speak with executive producer Danny Strong about the show and what drew him to the subject of wrongful convictions.

The Michael Avenatti Interview Feb 12, 2019

It's hard to say any attorney owned 2018 like Michael Avenatti who stormed (see what I did there?) onto the scene challenging Michael Cohen and Donald Trump over their treatment of his client. In a wide-ranging interview, Avenatti tells Joe and Elie (with a cameo appearance by ATL editor Staci Zaretsky) about his career, his assessment of the 2020 presidential race he thought about joining and of course his marquee 2018 matter and the strategy that went into it.

The Future Is Now Feb 05, 2019

Joe and Elie come to you from the Legaltech NY conference musing about the future of law, the future of law conferences, and the future of weather where Elie is constantly unhappy.

They Don't Get PR Flacks Jan 29, 2019

Elie is deeply concerned about the media's willingness to cave to every request of a public relations firm, mostly because some people never get to hire one. And the gang talks about other legal stuff o' the week.

The Best (Lawyer) A Man Can Get -- Not Rudy Jan 22, 2019

After Elie complains about toxic masculinity and razors, he and Joe discuss whether or not Rudy Giuliani's bizarre turn from respected former prosecutor to a talking head lunatic that seems to make his client's case worse at every turn. Did something happen to Rudy along the way... or was he maybe not that great at his job to begin with? Also, stealth layoffs may be appearing in the Biglaw world again. Is it time to start panicking?

On Emojis And Shutdowns Jan 15, 2019

Just when you thought the legal profession couldn't get weirder, we've got an extended treatment on the acceptability of emojis in workplace communication and the slow death of the Department of Justice under the weight of the shutdown. Moral of the story? If you have a civil claim against the government, now is the time to bring it.

Happy New Year! Everything's Awful Jan 08, 2019

Joe and Kathryn take a deep dive into some Above the Law stories from the last couple of weeks. Kathryn focuses on what ticks her off about a superficially light-hearted story about a Supreme Court advocate appearing for oral argument while his baby was busy being born and Joe talks about what reasonable accommodations for disabilities and the unconscious rhetorical choices he's made.

Should Christmas Eve Be A Firm Holiday? Dec 18, 2018

Joe and Elie discuss the major headlines in law firm news. Paul Weiss found itself in hot water after putting out a picture promoting its new partnership class of predominantly white dudes. It's a lesson in the damage visuals can wreck... and how to address incidents like this. Jones Day inserted itself... again... into the war on workers by entering the Slate labor dispute. And does your firm give the staff Christmas Eve off? Shouldn't everyone be doing this?

The Future Of The Law Firm Dec 11, 2018

Elie and Joe talk to Ralph Baxter, former head of Orrick and current board member of Intapp, about the future of the legal industry. Baxter has long been an evangelist for legal industry change, willing to rethink Biglaw's long-standing practices to deliver better and more cost-effective services to clients.

Getting Inside A Judge's Head Dec 05, 2018

Many folks become lawyers so they don't have to deal with math anymore. It's one of those weaknesses that holds back the profession as a business. Yet, cutting-edge tech is bringing number crunching to the fingertips of lawyers everywhere in the form of easy to use data analytics. Joe and Elie talk to Josh Becker of LexisNexis about the release of Context, a new tool that delivers deep insights into judicial idiosyncracies by analyzing the language of their body of work.

Thanksgiving Break Nov 27, 2018

As everyone departed for the holiday, Joe was left solo to make a few announcements about upcoming opportunities to see the Above the Law team, including an invite to our upcoming holiday party for all the loyal readers and listeners.

It's Finals Week for Law Students! Nov 21, 2018

Joe and Elie share their tips on how law students should prepare for final exams. They suggest getting into the mindset of mentioning concepts in the right place, organizing your notes before test week and even choosing the perfect song to get you hyped for studying. They top it off with their dislikes for final papers!

A Wild Week In Law School News Nov 13, 2018

Joe and Elie check in on the legal academy and boy was it a mess this week. One law school is closing. A T14 school claims it's in financial distress. And another school made all its students attend a racist propaganda rally. Just another day in the law school world.

The Rise Of The Freelance Lawyer Nov 06, 2018

With work flowing away from mid-sized firms with high overhead to either the established elite or small shops, the shape of the legal labor market was bound to change as well. That's where Lawclerk's solution comes in at the intersection of technology and human capital. Joe chats with Greg Garman and Talitha Gray about their platform and how they help efficiently match freelancers with small shops needing a dose of expertise.

New Law School Rankings, The Plight Of The Managing Partner, And In-House Work In The #MeToo Era Oct 30, 2018

Joe and Elie catch their breath by recapping the top legal stories of last week. At the annual meeting of the Association of Corporate Counsel, Elie describes an in-house community deeply concerned with navigating the #MeToo era, the gang discusses the abrupt decision of Baker McKenzie's managing partner to step down for "exhaustion," and the pair argue over a new set of law school rankings.

Law School Campuses In The Wake Of Kavanaugh Oct 23, 2018

You've seen all the mainstream media reports of student walk-outs and protests, but what are law school campuses really like these days. Joe and Elie are joined by Melissa Murray, a professor at NYU Law and former interim dean of Berkeley, to discuss the reaction from an insider's perspective and to delve into the overall mood on law school campuses these days. Are law students really desperate for "safe spaces" or is it more nuanced?

Fighting For The Innocent Oct 16, 2018

Joe and Elie take a serious turn, talking to University of Cincinnati Law Professor Mark Godsey, director of the Ohio Innocence Project, and author of Blind Injustice about the scourge of wrongful convictions, prosecutorial misconduct, and the trouble with local elections. Professor Godsey, a former prosecutor himself, discusses his conversion to an advocate for the wrongfully convicted and his grasp of the psychology that consistently lands the wrong people in prison.

Getting Paid As A Lawyer Really Shouldn't Be So Hard Oct 09, 2018

Joe attended this year's Clio Cloud Conference and sat down with Sarah Schaff of Headnote to discuss her legal career and how she's shifted to become an entrepreneur with a product that helps attorneys collect on their bills within hours instead of months.

The Kavanaugh Hearings Were Something Else, Weren't They Oct 02, 2018

Joe and Above the Law's Kathryn Rubino react in real-time to the Kavanaugh hearings, recapping the morning testimony of Christine Blasey Ford and watching the Kavanaugh opening statement in all its ripe-for-SNL-parody glory. Since this recording, the vote's been delayed pending an investigation but it's worth taking a step back and ruminating on what we saw.

The Changing Legal Office Sep 25, 2018

The legal workplace would be almost unrecognizable to a lawyer of the past. The typewriters are gone, WordPerfect is gone, the fax machines are going, and a whole host of new platforms providing services that those older lawyers could never have imagined. Joe and Elie chat with Casepoint CEO Haresh Bhungalia and Casepoint Chief Strategy Officer David Carns about the legal technology landscape generally and Casepoint specifically and how each are changing the legal workflow.

Transparency In The Courts Sep 18, 2018

Before the Kavanaugh nomination took its decidedly darker turn, the nominee spoke tentatively but positively of opening up the courts to cameras and same-day audio. The House has also put forward a bill to expand this transparency. Joe and Elie talk to Andrew Eisbrouch and Jesse Weber of the Guys Who Law podcast and the Law & Crime network. Law & Crime is dedicated to broadcasting live courtroom telecasts to inform the public about the judicial system, so we wanted to know their thoughts on transparency.

The Kavanaugh Confirmation Hearings Sep 12, 2018

Joe and Elie review the week that was in the Kavanaugh confirmation fight. Procedural fights! Threatened explusion! Giving false testimony to the Senate! Mysterious Kasowitz connections! After a wild week, will Brett Kavanaugh still have the votes to narrowly get confirmed to the Supreme Court? We'll just have to wait and find out. But the answer is yes.

Step Inside The Octagon -- Law And MMA Sep 04, 2018

Joe and Elie talk to Jason Cruz, a Seattle attorney and writer for MMA Payout covering the law and business side of MMA fighting. We discuss just how someone gets from a law degree to this world and walk through the lawsuit against Conor McGregor for throwing cans into the crowd. Elie also shares his theory for the unwritten social contract all sports fans should agree to and it's safe to say Elie wants us all to live in a dystopian nightmare.

Just How Smart Are You? Aug 28, 2018

Joe and Elie hit the road, coming to DC to ask some bar trivia questions to benefit the DC Bar Pro Bono Project. The winning score was 19/30... can you do better?

A Banner Week For Legal Gossip Aug 21, 2018

The Washington Post's Style section isn't normally where you'd go for your lawyerly insights, but last week they graced us with not one, but two legal stories. Joe Patrice and guest host Kathryn Rubino dive into Tiffany Trump's alleged law school woes and the hilariously grumpy life of Wachtell's George Conway as he navigates his days married to Kellyanne. There's also some Brett Kavanaugh talk, because why not?

Mastering On-Campus Interviewing Aug 14, 2018

As on-campus interviewing season begins, Joe and Elie welcome Vanderbilt Law School's Associate Director of Career Services Nick Alexiou to discuss the on-campus interviewing process. Learn to master the arcane art of speed dating with law firms and answering the difficult question, "why do you want to work here?". And the event details are here: https://www.eventbrite.com/e/trivia-challenge-at-iltacon-tickets-46580583780

Ohio State Football... A Quick Primer On Internal Investigations Aug 08, 2018

THE Ohio State University, as they prefer to be called, has commissioned a Biglaw firm to look into its head coach's handling of domestic abuse allegations against his staff. But what is an internal investigation? What exactly is it going to mean when Mary Jo White gets mentioned on ESPN? Joe and Elie give a quick, high-level rundown on the internal investigation process and Ohio State's situation. Sorry, I mean "The Ohio State's situation."

Above the Law Goes To The Movies Jul 31, 2018

Elie can't make it to today's podcast, so Joe goes on an extended rant about movies with legal mistakes in them that drive him crazy. If you've ever watched Jaws and thought the movie should have really followed a string of lawsuits to put Amity out of business, this is the episode for you.

The Danger Of For-Profit Law Schools Jul 24, 2018

After years of giving them a pass, the ABA is cracking down on flagging for-profit law schools that consistently produce few graduates with legal jobs while raking in huge bucks. But how did these schools manage to make it this far? Social anthropologist Dr. Riaz Tejani spent three years working at a for-profit law school and has compiled his research in LawMart: Justice, Access, And For-Profit Law Schools. He joins Joe and Elie this week to talk about his work.

How The Media Miffed Brett Kavanaugh's Nomination Jul 17, 2018

Barring some unforeseen parliamentary math, Judge Brett Kavanaugh of the DC Circuit will be the next associate justice of the Supreme Court. But as we come to the end of a whirlwind couple of weeks leading up to this announcement... did anything in we talked about matter? We all thought Kavanaugh was going to be the pick and after a ton of wild coverage Kavanaugh was still the pick. Joe and Elie discuss how the media got duped into following a horse race that never existed.

I’m Off A Boat Jul 10, 2018

Police accused a Vinson & Elkins partner of fleeing the scene after swimming away from a boat crash — ostensibly to get help — that left a number of V&E partners injured and then disappearing for five hours. Is this a good use of prosecutorial resources?

Anthony Kennedy Retires — What’s Next Jul 03, 2018

Joe and Elie chat with Above the Law Founder David Lat about Justice Anthony Kennedy’s announced retirement. What is Kennedy’s legacy? Where will the Court go from here? And handicapping Kennedy’s potential successors.

The Dumbest Law School Exam Question Ever Jun 28, 2018

Elie and Joe sit down to discuss one of the truly stupid law school final exams in history. Did it cover material that could reasonably come up in future practice? No. Did it require reasoning through currently controlling precedent? No. Was it wildly offensive? Oh, you better believe it was.

The 2018 Top 50 Law Schools Jun 21, 2018

Joe and Elie discuss Above the Law's annual ranking of the top law schools in America with ATL Research Director Brian Dalton. There were some major shifts at the top of this year's ranking, and Elie isn't happy about any of them.

Baby Making Music Jun 12, 2018

Joe and Elie talk to Ellen Trachman, an attorney specializing in all things baby, about artificial insemination, custody conundrums, and how twins can be citizens of different countries.

Emergency Podcast: Milbank Raises Salaries Jun 08, 2018

Milbank surprised everyone this week by boosting associate salaries over their 2016 levels. While we wait to see if others will follow suit, Joe and Elie break down what's happened and what this might mean for the industry at large.

Prenuptials, Post-nuptials, And No Judgements May 23, 2018

Elie and Joe talk to author and analyst Lisa Green about Trump family nuptials, and some common pitfalls in the asset protection game.

How To Decide On A Law School: We Answer Even More Questions May 08, 2018

Last time, Elie and Joe tackled a number of audience emails asking for counsel on where they should attend law school. That episode triggered a deluge of follow-up emails from listeners with their own questions, so the guys put their "Decision" hats back on and talked through even more law school scenarios. Can you get to Biglaw from a second-tier school? Have you spread your applications too thin? Are you deciding between Harvard and Stanford? We address all these questions and more.

Where Should You Go To Law School? Apr 27, 2018

Join Elie and Joe as they give tips to prospective law students about where they're thinking about going to law school and offer their advice on it. Offers from Penn and Berkeley? They got thoughts about it.

The Harrowing World Of Cybersecurity Apr 10, 2018

Elie and Joe chat with Joshua Lenon, Clio Lawyer-in-Residence, about global cybersecurity threats and what lawyers can do about them -- for both themselves and their clients. We also discuss potty training philosophies, so if you're looking for guidance on that, Elie has you covered.

ATL Set To Unveil New Ranking -- What In-House Counsel Really Think About Law Firms Feb 23, 2018

Next week, Above the Law will unveil its comprehensive law firm brand rankings based on an extensive survey of in-house counsel. Joe and Elie sat down with Above the Law Research Director Brian Dalton to talk a little about the ranking and what clients are looking for in a law firm.

Debt and Destruction Feb 02, 2018

Elie and Joe talk to Slate's Jordan Weissman about Trump's plans to change the nature of student debt, how Elie finally paid off his educational debt, and concussions in the NFL. Don't worry, it all fits together.

Cryptocurrency At The Crossroads Jan 19, 2018

Bitcoin and its ilk enjoyed a surge in value toward the end of 2017, but the pendulum is always poised to swing back dramatically in this largely unregulated market. Joe and Elie chat with Thornton McEnery of Dealbreaker about the cryptocurrency market, the role of big banks (read: our clients) in the crypto landscape and what's on the horizon in the U.S. and abroad to regulate the market.law lawyer legal podcast attorney practice

The Second Annual Thinking Like A Lawyer Awards Gala Dec 29, 2017

Roll out the red carpet for the second edition of the Thinking Like A Lawyer annual awards. On this star-studded evening, Joe and Elie honored the best — and by that they mean the worst — of the year in law. We laughed, we cried, it was better than Legally Blonde.

From Biglaw To Producing Hit Shows -- A Discussion with Jonathan Shapiro Nov 30, 2017

Jonathan Shapiro's career took him from the DOJ, to politics, to writing and producing hit shows from The Practice to The Blacklist to Amazon's Goliath. Along the way he even took a detour back into Biglaw. Joe and Kathryn sit down for a wide-ranging discussion about how a lawyer breaks into Hollywood and how penning lines for James Spader differs from practicing law.

2018 Legal Technology Predictions Nov 27, 2017

Joe and guest host Kathryn Rubino talk to Jeff Ton of Bluelock about what's on the horizon for 2018. Ransomware attacks, data disasters, robot lawyers... it actually isn't all as bad as that sounds. Lawyers are notoriously behind the times with technology, so take this podcast as your wake up call. These are the obstacles your practice will face and the tools you'll be working with to solve them.

Is It Okay To Talk About Women In Law Now? Oct 31, 2017

Elie and Joe talk with Above the Law's Kathryn Rubino about the challenges faced by women who go into Biglaw. From the struggle for equitable leave policies to hazing to sexual harassment, the legal industry is fraught with obstacles. Kathryn's new project, The Jabot aims to bring together a community to discuss these and other issues facing women and minorities.

How To Explain The World To Non-Lawyers Oct 19, 2017

Joe and Elie talk to Cristian Farias about producing a legal podcast non-lawyers listen to, and explaining the Supreme Court to a law audience.

Finding Your Career Starts Now, 1L Sep 19, 2017

Joe and Elie talk with Ray English, Career Services Director at Arizona State Sandra Day O'Connor School of Law, about when to start finding a job. (SPOILER ALERT: Now). And how to start finding yourself.

Turning Your Law Degree Into Writing About College Football Sep 06, 2017

College football is back in all its amazing and absurdist glory. Texas already lost to Maryland?!?! Cam Newton has a little brother?!?! Joe and Elie took advantage of the dawn of another season to examine the ultimate "JD Advantage" job by talking with Shutdown Fullcast co-host and SB Nation contributor Ryan Nanni about college football and how an NYU Law grad transitioned from Biglaw to covering college sports.

Election Law Takes Center Stage Aug 16, 2017

Remember the right to vote? That was a fun right, wasn't it? Elie and Joe talk to Professor Rick Hasen about the voting rights and redistricting battles being waged at the nation's highest courts. Also, apparently you can run a whole course on what's wrong with election law by only using examples from North Carolina. Good job Tar Heels.

How Hulk Hogan Ruined America Jul 31, 2017

When Peter Thiel bankrolled Hulk Hogan's ultimately successful suit against Gawker, he didn't just make every litigation financier look bad, he struck another blow in a systematic war on journalists being waged by the powerful. Nobody Speak: Trials of the Free Press, a new documentary by Brian Knappenberger, probes the Hogan case and other assaults on the press featuring interviews with Gawker principals, the staff of the Review-Journal -- the Nevada paper taken over by Sheldon Adelson, and free speech guru Floyd Abrams. Oh and we have a very serious talk about robot cops.

Supreme Court Wrap-Up Jul 19, 2017

Joe and Elie discuss the relatively sleepy Supreme Court Term with Goldstein & Russell's Tejinder Singh. How has Gorsuch changed the Court? How mad can one guy get over a footnote? What's really happening with that travel ban? We get to the bottom of all these questions.

Supreme Court Betting On New Jersey Jun 30, 2017

Lost in the shuffle of big headlines at the end the Supreme Court Term was the decision to take on New Jersey's challenge to PASPA, the Professional and Amateur Sports Protection Act, otherwise known as the "why you can only bet on sports in Nevada law." But as guest Steve Silver of The Legal Blitz explains, this is a potentially huge state's rights case directly linked to the Shelby County voting rights opinion.

Harvard's Accepting The GRE -- How Much Should You Freak Out? Jun 15, 2017

With Harvard following Arizona's lead and accepting GRE scores in the admissions process, more schools are starting to warm to the exam. But is the GRE really as good as the LSAT? Are schools just doing this as a cash grab at the expense of the profession? Elie thinks the GRE is basically filled out in crayon. Joe thinks it's a perfectly acceptable alternative test. Jeff Thomas of Kaplan Test Prep joins the show to say they're both a little right.

2017 Law School Rankings May 31, 2017

Above the Law unveils its 2017 law school rankings and uncorks a few surprises. Elie and Joe discuss the new rankings, the ATL methodology, and why everyone should consider the Above the Law rankings if they're deciding on law school with special guest Brian Dalton, Above the Law's Director of Research.

Bar Exam Woes May 25, 2017

As a new crop of law school graduates prepares for the bar exam, Joe and Elie talk to James Mullen of Law School HQ about the "last test you'll ever take." What is a "UBE" and is it a good development? Why are so many people struggling to pass the bar? And, really, what's California's problem?

The Police Have An Image Problem... And This Isn't Helping Apr 28, 2017

Between fake drug bust prom proposals and pulling people over out Christmas gifts, police departments across the country are trying to improve their image in the worst way possible. Joe and Elie discuss how this isn't so much "cute" as "a glaring violation of the Fourth Amendment."

Let Us Tell You Where You Should Go To Law School Apr 21, 2017

Joe and Elie open the mailbag and answer questions from listeners trying to decide where to go to law school. Even if you're not facing the precise decisions these listeners have, they hit on major issues that all students should consider in making a law school decision.

Why Did You Go There? Mar 24, 2017

Joe and Elie discuss how they chose their law schools, and how others should do what they say, not necessarily what they did.

When Your Accounting Firm Messes Up Mar 10, 2017

Elie and Joe watched the Oscars like everyone else, and when they saw the Best Picture screw up, they immediately thought what every other lawyer thought... blame the accountants. Caleb Newquist, the founding editor of Going Concern joins the show to talk insider accountant baseball on PwC's embarrassing mistake and why the Oscars won't fire the firm no matter how bad this looked.

Freedom Of The Press In Trump’s America (Rebroadcast) Mar 01, 2017

Joe and Elie chat with libel law expert and former Bloomberg Global Media Counsel Charles Glasser about the state of the press going forward. Glasser explains why he’s actually optimistic about freedom of the press, despite Trump’s campaign rhetoric about “opening up” libel law and the mainstream press deciding to hold off-the-record meetings in Trump Tower.

This episode originally aired on November 30th, 2016.

Biglaw Steps Up for Child Coming To America Feb 24, 2017

Elie and Joe talk to Gordon Caplan, co-chair of Wilkie Farr, about the firm's representation of Alma Kashkooli, a 12-year-old Iranian girl coming to the U.S. for highly specialized eye surgery in the midst of the administration's travel ban. From arguments in the Turkish airport, to seniors waiting on the courthouse steps to file emergency motions, the saga of aiding this little girl shows the importance of Biglaw pro bono work for people in need.

Everything You Wanted To Know About That Drone Spying Outside Your Bedroom Window (Rebroadcast) Jan 31, 2017

In this rebroadcast episode of Thinking Like A Lawyer, Elie and Joe talk with a drone law expert about the expanding rights of drones and the diminishing rights of property owners who want to stop them.

Steven Hogan is an associate with the law firm Ausley & McMullen and practices in the areas of commercial litigation and state and federal tax law.

The Fashion Police Jan 19, 2017

Elie and Joe talk about Apple, Samsung, knock offs, child labor, Melania Trump, and open toed shoes... in that order... with Fashionista editor Tyler McCall.

Awards For The Lawyer In Your Life Dec 30, 2016

Joe and Elie nominate, debate, and pick winners for a slew of end-of-year awards. The prize money is in the mail. By check. Subject to shipping and handling.

Bonuses And Bowls Dec 22, 2016

Joe and ATL Editor Kathryn Rubino discuss Biglaw bonus season as firms place the final cherry atop associate compensation after a tumultuous year of raises. Then they walk through college football bowl season and preview every matchup between teams with ABA accredited law schools because that's exactly what people thinking like lawyers would do.

Freedom Of The Press In Trump's America Nov 30, 2016

Joe and Elie chat with libel law expert and former Bloomberg Global Media Counsel Charles Glasser about the state of the press going forward. Glasser explains why he's actually optimistic about freedom of the press, despite Trump's campaign rhetoric about "opening up" libel law and the mainstream press deciding to hold off-the-record meetings in Trump Tower.

Private Practice Tools and Tech Roundup Nov 18, 2016

Joe and Elie talk to fellow ATL editor David Lat about the recent APP Conference in Philadelphia bringing together practitioners and thought leaders to discuss the future of legal practice. And Elie and Joe argue about public schools.

What's Up With The Philadelphia Market? Oct 24, 2016

Joe and Elie have only ever worked in New York law firms, so they're taking some time to focus on the ins and outs of legal markets around the country. First up is Philadelphia, New York's kid brother, to find out exactly what goes on in this city that -- for some firms -- is paying New York-level salaries.

Supreme Court Preview: Waiting For Garland Oct 10, 2016

Elie and Joe chat with SCOTUSBlog contributor and Supreme Court litigator Tejinder Singh about the upcoming Supreme Court Term. The docket lacks the blockbuster issues of past years, but there are still some critical cases pending before the 8-member Court.

Is LegalZoom Ruining The Legal Profession Or Enhancing It? Sep 30, 2016

With Elie unavailable, Joe brings on Chad Burton and Nicole Bradick of CuroLegal to cohost a wide-ranging discussion with LegalZoom General Counsel and Corporate Secretary Chas Rampenthal about the role LegalZoom plays in the future of the legal profession from the perspective of both clients and other lawyers. We also ask the most important question: How well did John Travolta capture O.J. Simpson lawyer and LegalZoom cofounder Robert Shapiro.

Access and Name Dropping Aug 31, 2016

Joe and Elie debate the Clinton Foundation, back to school issues, and the efficacy of taking classes with "famous" professors, just so you can name drop at parties.

Pokémon's Evolving Legal Landscape Aug 11, 2016

Joe and Elie chat with Drew Rossow of the law office of Gregory M. Gantt in Dayton, Ohio, and author of Gotta Catch... A Lawsuit? about the legal challenges surrounding Pokémon Go. It's worth noting that technology moves fast, and since recording this episode, Niantic has released updates via Pokemon Go that have begun to address how both players and businesses can “opt out” and “opt into” the game, along with addressing some safety concerns with more interactive disclaimers.

Law Firm Salary Extravaganza Jul 28, 2016

Law firms all across the country fell all over themselves last month to hike associate salaries. Elie and Joe chat with Professor Bill Henderson of the Indiana University Maurer School of Law, an expert in legal industry economics, to discuss what just happened and where the industry goes from here. Spoiler: he's not sure everyone should have given out those raises...

Summertime In Law Firms Jun 15, 2016

Discussing the whole summer experience of Biglaw life. From summer associate etiquette to proper lunching locations, to living as a full-time associate in a world of summers, we discuss how to tackle the summer and reminisce about our own summer adventures.

Unveiling The 2016 Top 50 Law Schools Jun 06, 2016

Joe and Elie chat with Research Director Brian Dalton about the latest law school rankings from Above the Law and trends in legal education. Do you want to know where you should go to law school? Do you just want bragging rights over your colleagues from rival schools? Either way this podcast is for you.

Making A Murderer's Dean Strang On Criminal Justice Apr 26, 2016

Joe and Elie chat with Dean Strang, the breakout legal star -- if that's the right word for a documentary -- of Netflix's Making A Murderer. Along with attorney Steven Chung, the gang chats with Strang about the state of the criminal justice system and the persistent plague of prosecutorial overreach.

The Hulk Hogan Leg Drop On The First Amendment Apr 07, 2016

Elie and First Amendment Lawyer Marc Randazza talk about the Hulk Hogan verdict, the right to be forgotten, and how Europe seems to be getting along just fine without ruining everybody's Google footprints.

The Future and Past of the Supreme Court Mar 14, 2016

Elie and Joe talk to Professor Peter Irons about Justice Scalia's vacancy and the often very personal stories of the people who bring their cases to the United States Supreme Court. Listen to Elie's mind being blown in real-time by a personal account of the life of Fred Korematsu.

Everything You Wanted To Know About That Drone Spying Outside Your Bedroom Window Feb 18, 2016

Elie and Joe talk with a drone law expert about the expanding rights of drones and the diminishing rights of property owners who want to stop them.

Election Law Pitfalls Of Presidential Primaries Feb 10, 2016

Joe and Elie chat with election law expert Professor Rick Hasen about the Iowa Caucuses, Ted Cruz's infamous mailer, and Citizens United as the presidential election kicks into gear.

Slave Wars Jan 05, 2016

Do Droids have rights in the Star Wars universe? Are they "pets?" Does Jabba's treatment of droids reveal him to be more evil than the Empire? Spoilers follow.

A World Without Affirmative Action Dec 22, 2015

With the Court seemingly poised to strike down affirmative-action in Fisher v. Texas, Elie, Joe and Renwei Chung debate how we got here and the future of diversity in higher education.

Here Comes The Bride... And The Lawyers Nov 23, 2015

Elie and Joe chat with Robert Schenk of Schenk Smith and proprietor of the Wedding Industry Law Blog about the oft-overlooked legal minefield that is getting married. Venues, vendors, and "DJ-Gate" loom large as Schenk explains how he found this niche and used it to build his small firm practice.

The Customer Is Always A Sucker: Law School Economics Nov 09, 2015

Joe and Elie chat with Slate Senior Business and Economics correspondent Jordan Weissmann about the economics of law schools. From Northwestern renaming itself for a huge endowment to a law professor taking to the media to say he sees no problem taking tuition from students who will never be able to practice, the economics of legal academia deserve a serious look. Is the model doomed?

Why Lawyers Are Good At Sex Oct 26, 2015

Joe and Elie chat with Gary Ross of Jackson Ross about starting your own firm, the unique challenges of transactional small law, and his blockbuster Above the Law column about legal sexual prowess.

How To Debate For Your Job Oct 19, 2015

Joe and Elie talk with Vanderbilt Career Services Officer Nick Alexiou about the legal job market, and the presidential job market.

Supreme Court Preview: Revenge of the Roberts! Oct 02, 2015

Elie and Joe complain about the media's abysmal coverage of court cases before previewing the upcoming Supreme Court Term with a real-life Supreme Court litigator, Tejinder Singh, a partner at Goldstein & Russell (http://www.goldsteinrussell.com/attorneys/tejinder-singh/) and contributor to SCOTUSBlog. What's next for the Supreme Court? If you said, "a lot of pro-business decisions" you're probably right!

SportsBall Sep 14, 2015

Elie and Joe talk with Steve Silver of The Legal Blitz about all the off the field problems associated with "OMG I think that's brain coming out of his ear"-Ball.

Kit-Kats, X-Files, And Starting Your Own Firm Aug 31, 2015

Joe talks to Jared Correia, Assistant Director and Senior Law Practice Advisor at LOMAP and host of Legal Talk Network's Legal Toolkit and Lunch Hour Legal Marketing about what lawyers, especially small firm and solo lawyers, need to know about running their own firm. As one might expect, the discussion takes some twists and turns before ending up on the burning question: should you draft Tom Brady in your fantasy draft?

Is The Office Thermostat Sexist? Aug 21, 2015

Joe chats with Kat Griffin of Corporate about women's professional fashion, the confusion of business casual and whether office temperatures unfairly target women.

Legal Feud Aug 10, 2015

Joe and Elie take a break from the usual format to face off in a trivia challenge. Do you know your constitutional amendments? How about your Supreme Court history? Play along at home.

One Robe, One Vote Jul 09, 2015

Elie and Joe speak to Rick Hasen, professor at UC Irvine and author of Election Law Blog. Professor Hasen explains the recent Supreme Court redistricting case, future cases regarding voting rights, and talks about the relationship between the Roberts Court and disenfranchisement. Joe argues for hope while it seems like Elie believes we should be led by a Platonic Philosopher King.

Free-Range Parenting Jun 25, 2015

Joe and Elie talk to Matthew Dowd, a partner at Andrews Kurth. Dowd famously represents the Meitiv family, the parents (now cleared) of child neglect charges for allowing their children, 10 and 6, to walk through their neighborhood unattended. Elie expresses concern over letting children roam free, while Joe thinks independence is key to building character and Dowd walks through the legal landscape that governs parenting in America.

Law And The Marvel Universe Jun 11, 2015

Elie and Joe chat with Joshua Gilliland and Jessica Mederson of The Legal Geeks about their legal careers and the legal issues surrounding the Marvel Cinematic Universe. Recorded immediately before the release of Avengers 2, they speculate on the legal issues that arise in building genocidal robots, cleaning up the aftermath of superpowered mayhem, and just how terrifying an entity like S.H.I.E.L.D. would be in real life.

2015 Law School Rankings Revealed! May 28, 2015

Elie and Joe talk with Brian Dalton, Research Director at Above the Law, about the 2015 law school rankings published by Above the Law. The annual ranking of the Top 50 law schools in the country boasts some surprising shakeups at the top. After discussing the latest rankings, the gang discusses what really matters: what law school student body would win in a fight.

The Network: How Does The Law End Up On Television? May 06, 2015

Elie and Joe sit down with Maria de Cesare, a lawyer from a major cable network, to talk about the fabulous life of an entertainment lawyer. After she stops crying, we figure out whether you should be jailed for killing a zombie, or a clone of yourself.

Up, Up, Down, Down, Sue, Sue: The Law of Video Games Apr 22, 2015

Elie and Joe sit down with Ryan Morrison, aka The Video Game Attorney, to discuss the emerging legal issues in the video game industry and just how many genocide treaties humans breach in every video game ever.

Daddy Needs A New Pair Of Shoes! Mar 12, 2015

It's March Madness time. Or, as a person with a rudmentary respect for trademark laws would say, "It's time for the NCAA Mens College Basketball Tournament." In this episode, we take a look at running an office bracket pool. But it turns out that gambling is illegal in most states. Why is that the case? Should we live in a world where we have laws that nobody even tries to enforce? Guest Steven Silver of The Legal Blitz joins the hosts to explain how we've gotten to the point where nearly every office worker in America breaks the law every March.

Introduction To Mayhem Mar 12, 2015

In our inaugural episode, Elie and Joe take a deep dive into their own navels. What kind of person becomes a "legal blogger" in the first place? In the words of Admiral Stockdale (Google him): Who are we? Why are we here?

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