Stay ConnectedKimberley Quinlan, an anxiety specialist for over 15 years, delivers Science-Based Solutions for Anxiety, Panic, Depression, OCD, Social Anxiety, Health Anxiety, & other difficult emotions.
The New York Times listed Your Anxiety Toolkit as one of the “6 Podcasts to Soothe An Anxious Mind” (April 27, 2024). We are on a mission to help people who want to thrive in the face of anxiety and other mental health struggles.
A beautiful life is possible!
Today, we're talking about the Top 5 Relationship Rules I have that have changed my life. This episode was inspired by a letter I wrote to all of you. For those of you who signed up for my newsletter, I give you tools and tips, and stories, and I tell you funny jokes sometimes. But I was writing the newsletter while I was in Australia just before I left when I was there in December, and I was reflecting on how beautiful my relationships are with my family now. And I was reflecting on why. Why are they so beautiful? Well, number one, they're beautiful people. But number two, more importantly, I have learned these relationship rules, which have allowed me to have the most beautiful relationship with my family and the most beautiful relationship with my husband, my kids, my friends, and you guys.
Now, that doesn't mean there are no bumps. That doesn't mean there are no arguments. A few weeks ago, I wrote in the newsletter about how I had an argument with my husband. Of course, I was joking about how wrong he was and how right I was. But it doesn't mean we don't have conflict, but we get to coexist because of these relationship rules, and I want to share them with you.
Before we proceed, I want to say, these mightn't work for you. I think they work well, but I don't want you to feel guilty, ashamed, embarrassed, angry, or whatever the feelings are if you feel like these don't match you. So take what you need here. Leave what isn't helpful for you; if it's useful for you, wonderful. If it doesn't sit right, one of them doesn't sit right, that is not a problem. It's totally okay to use what helps you. When I'm talking on this podcast, I'm giving you ideas, so be curious and consider them, but it doesn't mean that I'm always right, I think I'm right, or I know what's right for you.
All right, here we go. I'm going to go through them quickly and then elaborate a little later once we get through, okay? But I want to remind you that these relationship rules help me stay solid in my relationships, and they've gotten me through some of the hardest periods and seasons of my life. So, let's see if they're helpful for you.
1. It is not your job or my job to manage our family's emotions.Their emotions are their responsibility, and it is their job to regulate their emotions when they're upset with us. And it's our job to regulate and manage our emotions when we are upset. Now, what does regulate mean? It means you're allowed to have them. We're not saying that no one's allowed to be upset, but we have to communicate and share with them and regulate by not throwing things, lashing out, saying unkind things, saying things that aren't true, saying 'you' statements like, "You're so blah, blah, blah." We want to use 'I' statements like, "I feel this way about that," or "I would like this thing to happen." So, we want to regulate as best as we can. Our job is to regulate what shows up for us, and their job is to regulate what shows up for them.
2. It is not your job to please the people you are in relationship with.Now, they get to have expectations and they get to communicate with you on what their expectations are, and you get to have expectations and you get to communicate their expectations. Now, this is so important, then we can have a respectful conversation. A lot of the time these days, I see people in relationships or even online where somebody disagrees and they're so hurt. They're like, "You've harmed me by saying that. I'm so hurt by what you said." But the person gets to have their thoughts and their feelings. It's not our job to manage it, and it's not our job to please them either. So you get to have your beliefs and thoughts and ideas, and you get to disagree with other people as well. It's as long as we're able to do it respectfully. And when I say respectful, I'm not saying it in a people-pleasing way either. It is not our job to please people. It's just not.
Here's a deeper one. Let me just jump into this a little: I'm still working on this and I get therapy. I have a lot of practice and I've read about the idea of my happiness. That's my job. My happiness is my job. And I easily get caught up in, "No, if my partner would just do A, B, and C, then I can be happy," or "If my kids just do A, B, and C, then I can be happy." And that is true to a degree. But the problem with that rule, if you want to keep that rule, is you have no empowerment and no responsibility. It's all up to them. Your life is in their hands. Your happiness is in their hands.
And so, I like to think about, yeah, people can't always please me, like I just said, and people are going to upset me. And then it's my job to decide what I want to do with that, and it's my job to determine how I'm going to cope today with the fact that they may not be living up to the way I want them to. So that's really important.
3. They are allowed to have their feelings about our choices.This is a big one for my husband and I. We say this to each other all the time. It's like, "You're allowed to have your feelings about that and so am I." This one is so hard for me, especially in my marriage because if I upset him, I'd be like, "You shouldn't be upset." And he's like, "I'm allowed to be upset. I'm allowed to have my feelings about it." And I'm like, "No, but you shouldn't." And he's like, "Yeah, but I am. I do."
It is okay if they don't like everything about us and if they disagree. It is our job to live according to our values, which doesn't always align with their expectations of us. Our job is to go and live our lives and let them have their feelings about it. Then, we can communicate respectfully about our misalignment. "But that has been so beautiful for me." To say, "You're allowed to have your feelings about me, specifically me as a public person." When I used to speak at a conference, or online or on Instagram, and someone would say something negative, I used to be like, "Oh, how dare they say something so mean? How could they disagree with me or not like me?" It was so painful because I had made this rule that they should only have good feelings about me.
And now I'm okay. You can have all your feelings about me. You might like me, or you might hate me. You might like me one day and not like me the next. You might agree or not agree, and you get to have your feelings about me. I give you permission. It is so freeing to say, "I'm going to let everyone have permission to have their feelings about me." That's okay. I'm not for everyone. That sentence literally has healed me on the deepest level, probably more than any sentence. You're allowed to have your feelings about me. So important.
4. It is okay if they struggle to understand us.In fact, I encourage you to accept that they will not always understand us. Sometimes people won't have the capacity to understand us, and that doesn't make us wrong. And it also doesn't mean that you won't be able to find a way to coexist and still love each other unconditionally. That's so true.
I always tell my patients, let's say I come in and I'm wearing my favorite boots, which are a bit sassy, and you come in, and you're like, "I hate your boots. They're the ugliest boots ever." I could even say, "Ah, you're supposed to love my boots." Or I could say, "That's cool. You don't have to love my boots. You get to have your feelings about them. And it's okay if you don't understand how rocking my boots are."
Now, this also goes for who you are. They get to have their feelings about who you are. They get to not like who we are, as long as they're respectful, they don't cross any boundaries, and they're not abusive. They get to be upset, and it's okay that they don't understand us. As I said, some people can't understand us. So important.
5. You get to (and they get to) change their mind or change, period.Again, this one was so hard for me. Now, for those of you who don't know me, I've been married almost 20 years. It will be 20 years this year, which means my husband's done a ton of changing, and so have my family, my friends, and so have you guys. There's a lot of change. But they get to change. If somebody changes, we can't go, "Wait, that's not fair. I didn't go into this relationship with you being this new version of you. You have to be the old version of you." That's not a real relationship. That's saying you must stay the same and can't express and be who you are.
We could say, "You've changed, and these are my feelings about it," as long as I'm doing it, not in a judgmental way or not in a way that's trying to change them back because people get to change. They get to change their mind. So that's another big one for me, is if someone says, "I like this," and then they come back and say, "I actually really don't," I have to remind myself they're allowed to change their mind because they're allowed to have their feelings. And it's okay that they don't understand us, and they're going to manage their own emotions, and I'm going to manage mine.
We can't hold ourselves to the expectation that will never change. As we go through different seasons in our life, we will change. And that might feel scary. But we can try using our mindfulness skills and our regulation skills to navigate the change and the emotions you have to feel.
So those are the five relationship rules that have changed my life. Now, here's the kicker. None of it is fun. None of it. This is some hard work. I nearly said that S word, which is fine. I'm allowed to swear, but it's some hard shit. This is some terrible stuff to work through, but with it comes stronger and more unconditionally loving relationships.
When I gave my husband permission to have his feelings about me, he was happier, and he loved me more because it meant that he didn't have to pretend to be somebody else or he didn't have to pretend to like something and get resentful because he actually didn't like it. When I allowed myself to be different from my family, and I accepted that they might have feelings about that, and I gave them permission to have feelings about that, there wasn't a problem anymore.
The biggest problem, the biggest pain, the most suffering came when I was like, "No, they shouldn't feel this way about me. That's not fair"! But, it is fair. They get to have their feelings based on their own personal and their upbringing and their own incapacities and their own limitations. They get to have their feelings. It mightn't be perfect, but I'm not perfect.
You guys, I could add a fifth or sixth one here. I didn't write this one in the email, but I'm not perfect, and neither are they, and that's okay. Sometimes I would say, "No, but they need to be this way because that's the right way. This is the right way to be." And I get it. Yeah, there is sometimes real right and wrong, like you shouldn't harm people or say horrible things or critical things or racist things or misogynist things. We get that, and I agree with all that. But at the end of the day, the people in our lives will be imperfect, and we have to get better about not being black and white and cutting them off because they did a "bad" thing.
I think cancel culture has taught us a lot in this idea of like, "You're dead to me. You're done. You're canceled." Relationships don't work like that. We're human beings. We make mistakes. I've made a million mistakes. I've actually-- okay, now I'm going on and on. But we also have to learn to accept that we make mistakes and be willing to apologize for it. It's a humble thing to do. It's not fun, not fun at all, but we can also say we're sorry too.
So that's it, you guys. There's a humbling; there's a humanity that we connect with when we can allow everyone to have their feelings, when we can allow ourselves to have our feelings when we can have limits and boundaries and clearly communicate that with our loved ones, but then also understand that sometimes they may not get it.
Now there will be situations if you say, "I don't like that," and they will not respect you. You may need to make a limit and a boundary with them where they don't have as much access to you. That's 100% valid. And again, I'm not here telling you to accept other people's bad behavior. Absolutely not. But we can accept that they have some feelings about it, as long as they're communicating respectfully, kindly, compassionately, or at least they're trying. At least they're trying.
So that's it, folks. The five relationship rules that have literally changed my life and my relationships. I hope it's helpful. It is a beautiful day to do hard things, and I will see you next week.
Today, we're talking about the Top 5 Relationship Rules I have that have changed my life. This episode was inspired by a letter I wrote to all of you. For those of you who signed up for my newsletter, I give you tools and tips, and stories, and I tell you funny jokes sometimes. But I was writing the newsletter while I was in Australia just before I left when I was there in December, and I was reflecting on how beautiful my relationships are with my family now. And I was reflecting on why. Why are they so beautiful? Well, number one, they're beautiful people. But number two, more importantly, I have learned these relationship rules, which have allowed me to have the most beautiful relationship with my family and the most beautiful relationship with my husband, my kids, my friends, and you guys.
Now, that doesn't mean there are no bumps. That doesn't mean there are no arguments. A few weeks ago, I wrote in the newsletter about how I had an argument with my husband. Of course, I was joking about how wrong he was and how right I was. But it doesn't mean we don't have conflict, but we get to coexist because of these relationship rules, and I want to share them with you.
Before we proceed, I want to say, these mightn't work for you. I think they work well, but I don't want you to feel guilty, ashamed, embarrassed, angry, or whatever the feelings are if you feel like these don't match you. So take what you need here. Leave what isn't helpful for you; if it's useful for you, wonderful. If it doesn't sit right, one of them doesn't sit right, that is not a problem. It's totally okay to use what helps you. When I'm talking on this podcast, I'm giving you ideas, so be curious and consider them, but it doesn't mean that I'm always right, I think I'm right, or I know what's right for you.
All right, here we go. I'm going to go through them quickly and then elaborate a little later once we get through, okay? But I want to remind you that these relationship rules help me stay solid in my relationships, and they've gotten me through some of the hardest periods and seasons of my life. So, let's see if they're helpful for you.
1. It is not your job or my job to manage our family's emotions.Their emotions are their responsibility, and it is their job to regulate their emotions when they're upset with us. And it's our job to regulate and manage our emotions when we are upset. Now, what does regulate mean? It means you're allowed to have them. We're not saying that no one's allowed to be upset, but we have to communicate and share with them and regulate by not throwing things, lashing out, saying unkind things, saying things that aren't true, saying 'you' statements like, "You're so blah, blah, blah." We want to use 'I' statements like, "I feel this way about that," or "I would like this thing to happen." So, we want to regulate as best as we can. Our job is to regulate what shows up for us, and their job is to regulate what shows up for them.
2. It is not your job to please the people you are in relationship with.Now, they get to have expectations and they get to communicate with you on what their expectations are, and you get to have expectations and you get to communicate their expectations. Now, this is so important, then we can have a respectful conversation. A lot of the time these days, I see people in relationships or even online where somebody disagrees and they're so hurt. They're like, "You've harmed me by saying that. I'm so hurt by what you said." But the person gets to have their thoughts and their feelings. It's not our job to manage it, and it's not our job to please them either. So you get to have your beliefs and thoughts and ideas, and you get to disagree with other people as well. It's as long as we're able to do it respectfully. And when I say respectful, I'm not saying it in a people-pleasing way either. It is not our job to please people. It's just not.
Here's a deeper one. Let me just jump into this a little: I'm still working on this and I get therapy. I have a lot of practice and I've read about the idea of my happiness. That's my job. My happiness is my job. And I easily get caught up in, "No, if my partner would just do A, B, and C, then I can be happy," or "If my kids just do A, B, and C, then I can be happy." And that is true to a degree. But the problem with that rule, if you want to keep that rule, is you have no empowerment and no responsibility. It's all up to them. Your life is in their hands. Your happiness is in their hands.
And so, I like to think about, yeah, people can't always please me, like I just said, and people are going to upset me. And then it's my job to decide what I want to do with that, and it's my job to determine how I'm going to cope today with the fact that they may not be living up to the way I want them to. So that's really important.
3. They are allowed to have their feelings about our choices.This is a big one for my husband and I. We say this to each other all the time. It's like, "You're allowed to have your feelings about that and so am I." This one is so hard for me, especially in my marriage because if I upset him, I'd be like, "You shouldn't be upset." And he's like, "I'm allowed to be upset. I'm allowed to have my feelings about it." And I'm like, "No, but you shouldn't." And he's like, "Yeah, but I am. I do."
It is okay if they don't like everything about us and if they disagree. It is our job to live according to our values, which doesn't always align with their expectations of us. Our job is to go and live our lives and let them have their feelings about it. Then, we can communicate respectfully about our misalignment. "But that has been so beautiful for me." To say, "You're allowed to have your feelings about me, specifically me as a public person." When I used to speak at a conference, or online or on Instagram, and someone would say something negative, I used to be like, "Oh, how dare they say something so mean? How could they disagree with me or not like me?" It was so painful because I had made this rule that they should only have good feelings about me.
And now I'm okay. You can have all your feelings about me. You might like me, or you might hate me. You might like me one day and not like me the next. You might agree or not agree, and you get to have your feelings about me. I give you permission. It is so freeing to say, "I'm going to let everyone have permission to have their feelings about me." That's okay. I'm not for everyone. That sentence literally has healed me on the deepest level, probably more than any sentence. You're allowed to have your feelings about me. So important.
4. It is okay if they struggle to understand us.In fact, I encourage you to accept that they will not always understand us. Sometimes people won't have the capacity to understand us, and that doesn't make us wrong. And it also doesn't mean that you won't be able to find a way to coexist and still love each other unconditionally. That's so true.
I always tell my patients, let's say I come in and I'm wearing my favorite boots, which are a bit sassy, and you come in, and you're like, "I hate your boots. They're the ugliest boots ever." I could even say, "Ah, you're supposed to love my boots." Or I could say, "That's cool. You don't have to love my boots. You get to have your feelings about them. And it's okay if you don't understand how rocking my boots are."
Now, this also goes for who you are. They get to have their feelings about who you are. They get to not like who we are, as long as they're respectful, they don't cross any boundaries, and they're not abusive. They get to be upset, and it's okay that they don't understand us. As I said, some people can't understand us. So important.
5. You get to (and they get to) change their mind or change, period.Again, this one was so hard for me. Now, for those of you who don't know me, I've been married almost 20 years. It will be 20 years this year, which means my husband's done a ton of changing, and so have my family, my friends, and so have you guys. There's a lot of change. But they get to change. If somebody changes, we can't go, "Wait, that's not fair. I didn't go into this relationship with you being this new version of you. You have to be the old version of you." That's not a real relationship. That's saying you must stay the same and can't express and be who you are.
We could say, "You've changed, and these are my feelings about it," as long as I'm doing it, not in a judgmental way or not in a way that's trying to change them back because people get to change. They get to change their mind. So that's another big one for me, is if someone says, "I like this," and then they come back and say, "I actually really don't," I have to remind myself they're allowed to change their mind because they're allowed to have their feelings. And it's okay that they don't understand us, and they're going to manage their own emotions, and I'm going to manage mine.
We can't hold ourselves to the expectation that will never change. As we go through different seasons in our life, we will change. And that might feel scary. But we can try using our mindfulness skills and our regulation skills to navigate the change and the emotions you have to feel.
So those are the five relationship rules that have changed my life. Now, here's the kicker. None of it is fun. None of it. This is some hard work. I nearly said that S word, which is fine. I'm allowed to swear, but it's some hard shit. This is some terrible stuff to work through, but with it comes stronger and more unconditionally loving relationships.
When I gave my husband permission to have his feelings about me, he was happier, and he loved me more because it meant that he didn't have to pretend to be somebody else or he didn't have to pretend to like something and get resentful because he actually didn't like it. When I allowed myself to be different from my family, and I accepted that they might have feelings about that, and I gave them permission to have feelings about that, there wasn't a problem anymore.
The biggest problem, the biggest pain, the most suffering came when I was like, "No, they shouldn't feel this way about me. That's not fair"! But, it is fair. They get to have their feelings based on their own personal and their upbringing and their own incapacities and their own limitations. They get to have their feelings. It mightn't be perfect, but I'm not perfect.
You guys, I could add a fifth or sixth one here. I didn't write this one in the email, but I'm not perfect, and neither are they, and that's okay. Sometimes I would say, "No, but they need to be this way because that's the right way. This is the right way to be." And I get it. Yeah, there is sometimes real right and wrong, like you shouldn't harm people or say horrible things or critical things or racist things or misogynist things. We get that, and I agree with all that. But at the end of the day, the people in our lives will be imperfect, and we have to get better about not being black and white and cutting them off because they did a "bad" thing.
I think cancel culture has taught us a lot in this idea of like, "You're dead to me. You're done. You're canceled." Relationships don't work like that. We're human beings. We make mistakes. I've made a million mistakes. I've actually-- okay, now I'm going on and on. But we also have to learn to accept that we make mistakes and be willing to apologize for it. It's a humble thing to do. It's not fun, not fun at all, but we can also say we're sorry too.
So that's it, you guys. There's a humbling; there's a humanity that we connect with when we can allow everyone to have their feelings, when we can allow ourselves to have our feelings when we can have limits and boundaries and clearly communicate that with our loved ones, but then also understand that sometimes they may not get it.
Now there will be situations if you say, "I don't like that," and they will not respect you. You may need to make a limit and a boundary with them where they don't have as much access to you. That's 100% valid. And again, I'm not here telling you to accept other people's bad behavior. Absolutely not. But we can accept that they have some feelings about it, as long as they're communicating respectfully, kindly, compassionately, or at least they're trying. At least they're trying.
So that's it, folks. The five relationship rules that have literally changed my life and my relationships. I hope it's helpful. It is a beautiful day to do hard things, and I will see you next week.
One of the most common questions I get asked is what do I do during or after an exposure? Number One, it's so scary to do an exposure, and number two, there's so many things that people have brought up as things to do, even me, this being Your Anxiety Toolkit. Maybe you get overwhelmed with the opportunity and options for tools that it gets too complicated. So, I want to make this super easy for you, and I want to go through step by step, like what you're supposed to do during or after an exposure. Now, I think it's important that we first look at, there is no right. You get to choose, and I'm going to say that all the way through here, but I'm going to give you some really definitive goals to be going forward with as you do an exposure, as you face your fear. Now, make sure you stick around to the end because I will also address some of the biggest roadblocks I hear people have with the skills that I'm going to share. Now, a lot of you know, I have ERP School if you have OCD and I have Overcoming Anxiety and Panic if you have panic, and I have BFRB School if you have hair pulling and skin picking. These are all basically courses of me teaching you exactly what I teach my patients. So, if you want a deeper in-depth study of that, you can, by all means, get the steps there of how to build an exposure plan, how to build a response prevention plan. Today, I'm going to complement that work and talk about what to do during and after an exposure. So here we go. Let's say you already know what you're going to face. Like I said, you've already created an exposure plan. You understand the cycle of the disorder or the struggle that you are handling, and you've really identified how you're going to break that cycle and you've identified the fear that you're going to face. Or just by the fact of nature being the nature, you've been spontaneously exposed to your fear. What do you do? Now, let's recap the core concepts that we talk about here all the time on Your Anxiety Toolkit, which is, number one, what we want to do is practice tolerating whatever discomfort you experience. What does that mean? It means being open and compassionate and vulnerable as you experience discomfort in your body. A lot of people will say, "But what am I supposed to do?" And this is where I'm going to say, this is very similar to me trying to teach you how to ride a bike on this podcast. Or I'll tell you a story. My 11-year-old daughter was sassing me the other day and I was telling her I wanted her to unpack the dishwasher, and she said, "How?" She was just giving me sass, joking with me. And I was saying to her, "Well, you raise your hand up and you open your fist and you put your hand over the top of the dishwasher and you pull with your muscles down towards your--" I'm trying giving her like silly-- we're joking with each other, like step by step. Now, it's very hard to learn how to do that by just words. Usually—let's go back to the bike example—you have to get on the bike and feel the sensation of falling to know what to do to counter the fall as you start to lean to the left or lean to the right. And so, when it comes to willingly tolerating your discomfort, it actually just requires you practicing it, and if I'm going to be quite honest with you, sucking at it, because you will suck at it. We all suck at being uncomfortable. But then working at knowing how to counter that discomfort. Again, you're on the bike, you're starting to feel yourself move to the right and learning to lean to the left a little to balance it out. And that's what learning how to be uncomfortable is about too. It's having the discomfort, noticing in your body it's tightening, and learning to do the opposite of that tightening. It is very similar to learning how to ride a bike. And it's very similar in that it's not just a cognitive behavior, it's a physical thing. It's noticing, "Oh, I'm tight." For me, as I get anxious, I always bring my shoulders up and it's learning to counter that by dropping them down. So, it's tolerating discomfort. Now, often beyond that-- I'm going to give you some more strategy here in a second. But beyond that, it's actually quite simple in that you go and do whatever it is that you would be doing if you hadn't faced this hard thing. Here is an example. The other week during the holidays, one of my family members-- I'll tell you the story. My mom and dad took a trip to Antarctica. This is a dream trip for them. They're very well-traveled and they were going through what's called the Drake Passage, which is this very scary passage of water. It took them 36 hours to sail through it and it can be very dangerous. And I noticed that the anxiety I was feeling in my body about the uncertainty of where they are and how far they've got to go and are they safe and all these things is I was sitting on the couch and I wasn't engaging in anything. My kids were trying to talk to me and I was blowing them off. And I was scrolling on my phone instead of doing the things I needed to do. I was stuck and I was holding myself in this stuckness because I didn't want to let go of the fear, but I did want to let go of the fear. It was this really weird thing where I was just stuck in a sense of freeze mode. And I had to remind myself, "Kimberley, they're sailing through the Drake Passage. There's nothing you can do. Go and live your life. Holding yourself on this couch is not going to change any outcome. You thinking about it is not going to change any outcome. Just go ahead with your life." And so, what I want to offer to you is—I've said this to my patients as well when they say, "What am I supposed to do now? I've done the exposure. What am I supposed to do?"—I say, do nothing at all. Just go about your day. What would you do if anxiety wasn't here? What would you be doing if you didn't do this exposure? What would the non-anxious you go and do? And as you do that-- so let's say you're like, "Well, I need to do the dishes or I need to unpack the dishwasher," as you do that, you will notice discomfort rise and fall. And just like riding a bike, you are going to practice not contracting to it. Just like if you were riding a bike and you started to lean to the right, you would be practicing gently leading to the left. And if you go too far to the left, you would practice gently leading to the right. And that's the work of being uncomfortable. Now, you're not here to make the discomfort go away. You're here to practice willingly allowing it and not tensing up against it while you go and live your life. And I literally could leave the podcast there. I could sign off right now and be like, "That's all I need you to know," because that is all I need you to know, is practice not contracting. Meaning not tensing your muscles, not trying to think it away, fight it away, push it away. What you're really doing is allowing there to be uncertainty in your life or discomfort or anxiety in your life and just go and do what you love to do. To be honest, the biggest finger, like the bird, I don't know what you call it. Like the biggest in-your-face to anxiety, whatever anxiety you're suffering, is to go and live your life. And so, I could leave it at that, but because I want to be as thorough as I can, I want to just check in here with a couple of things that you need to know. Often when, and we go through this extensively in ERP School and in Overcoming Anxiety and Panic, is when you are uncomfortable, there are a set of general behaviors that humans engage in that you need to get good at recognizing and create a plan for. And these are the things we usually do to make our discomfort go away. So, the first one is a physical compulsion. "I'm uncomfortable. How can I get it to go away? I'll engage in a behavior." So, remember here that exposures are really only as good as the response prevention. Now for those of you who don't know what response prevention is, it's ultimately not doing a behavior to reduce or remove the discomfort you feel that's resulted from the exposure. So, you do an exposure, you're uncomfortable, what behaviors would you usually do to make that discomfort go away? Response prevention is not doing those behaviors. So, the first one is physical compulsions. So, if you notice that you're doing these physical repetitive behaviors, chances are, you're doing a compulsion of what we call a safety behavior and you're doing them to make the discomfort go away. So, we want to catch and be aware of those. We also want to be aware of avoidance. Often people will say, "Okay, I faced the scary thing, but I don't want to make it any worse so I'm going to avoid these other things until this discomfort goes away." Now, first of all, I'm going to say, good job. That's a really good start. But we want to work at not doing that avoidant behavior during or after the exposure as well. In addition, we want to work at not doing reassurance-seeking behaviors during or after an exposure. So, an example that that might be, let's say you're facing your fear of going to the doctor. But as you're facing your fear of going to the doctor, you're sitting there going through WebMD or any other health Google search engine and you're trying to take away your discomfort by searching and researching and getting reassurance or texting a friend going, "Are you sure I'm going to be okay? Are you sure bad things aren't going to happen?" Now, one of the things that are the most hardest to stop when you've done an exposure or during an exposure is mental compulsions. So, I want to slow down here for you and I want to say, this is a work in progress. We're going to take any win that we can and celebrate it, but also acknowledge that we can slowly work to reduce these mental compulsions. Now a mental compulsion is rumination, problem-solving, thinking, thinking, thinking. Like I said to you, when I was on the couch, I was just sitting there going over all the scenarios going, "I wonder if they're going up or down or what they're doing. And I hope they're avoiding the big waves and I hope they're not stuck and I hope they're not scared and I hope they're okay." All the things. All that I hope they are was me doing mental compulsions. And so, you won't be able to prevent these all the time. But for me, it was observing again, when I'm contracting. The contraction in this case was mental rumination. And then again, just like a bike, noticing, I'm focusing in, very, very zoomed in on this one thing. How can I zoom out, just like it would be leaning from left to right if I was riding a bike—zoom out into what's actually happening, which is my son's right in front of me asking me to play Minecraft or play Pokemon or whatever it is that he was asking, and the dishes need doing. And I would really love to read some poetry right now because that's what I love to do. So, it's catching that and being aware of that. And again, it's not something I can teach you, it's something you have to practice and learn for yourself in that awareness of, "Ooh, I'm contracting. Ooh, I'm zooming in. I need to zoom out and look at the big picture here. I need to look at what my values are, engage in what I want to be doing right now." The last way that we contract is self-punishment. We start to just beat ourselves up. So, you did the exposure, you're feeling uncertain, you might be feeling other emotions like guilt and shame and embarrassment and all the emotions. And so, in effort to avoid that, we just beat ourselves up. I have a client who does amazing exposures, but once they've done the exposure, they beat themselves up for not having done the exposure earlier. It's like, ouch. Wow. So, you're doing this amazing thing, facing this amazing fear, practicing not contracting, doing actually a pretty good job, but then engaging in punishing themselves. "Why didn't I do this earlier? I should have done this years ago. I could have saved myself so much suffering. I could have recovered earlier. I could have gotten to college earlier. I could have succeeded more." Again, that's a contraction that we do during exposure to fight or react to the fact that you have discomfort in your body. And what I really want to offer you, again, let's go back to basics—this is just about you learning to be a safe place while you have discomfort. So, you're having discomfort, you're riding the bike. Please don't just use this podcast as a way to fill your brain with all the tools and not implement it. I will not be able to teach you to metaphorically ride a bike until you put your little tush on the bike seat and you give it a go and you fail a bunch of times. And so again, this is you learning to sit on the bike metaphorically, doing an exposure, noticing you're falling to the right and learning to be aware of that and learning what the skill you need to use in that moment and then learn how to adjust in that moment. And that's the work. That's the work—gently, kindly, compassionately, tending to what shows up to you as if you really matter because you really, really matter. Let me say that again. You're going to tend to yourself. I'm saying it twice because I need you to hear me. You're going to tend to yourself compassionately because you matter. This matters. You are doing some pretty brave things. Right now, I'm wearing my "It's a beautiful day to do hard thing" t-shirt. It's what I wear every Wednesday because it's my favorite day to record podcasts and to do this with you. So yeah, that's what we're going to do. We're going to sit together, we're going to do the hard thing, we're going to do it kindly. But again, let me come back to the real simplicity of this, is just go do you and let it be imperfect. Exposures are not going to be perfect. You're not going to do them perfect. Just like if I learn to ride a bike for the first time, probably going to crash, but the crashes will teach me what to do next time I'm almost about to crash. Now, as I promised you, there are some common roadblocks, I would say, that get in the way and they usually are thoughts. Now if you have OCD, we go through this extensively in ERP School because it does tend to show up there the most, but it does show up with panic as well a lot, is there are roadblocks or thoughts that pull us back into contraction because when we think them, we think they're real. An example would be, what if I lose control and go crazy? That's a really common one. A lot of times, that thought alone can make us go, "Nope, I refuse to tolerate that risk," and we contract, and we end up doing compulsions. And the compulsion or the safety behavior takes away the benefit of that initial exposure. Another one is, what if I push myself too hard, like have a heart attack or my body can't take it and I implode? As ridiculous as it sounds, I can't tell you how many of my patients and clients in the 10-plus years I've been practicing—way more, close to 15 years—I've been practicing as a therapist, clients have said, "I've completely ejected from the exposure because of the fear I will implode," even though they know that that's, as far as we know, not possibl…
Full show notes at the publisherMINDFULLY TENDING TO ANGER & RESENTMENT Welcome back. I am so happy to have you here with me today to talk about mindfully tending to feelings of anger and resentment. Sometimes when we have relentless anxiety and intrusive thoughts, anger can feel like the only emotion we can access. For those of you who don't know me, well, you might be surprised to hear maybe not to know that I actually have quite a hot temper. I get hot really quick emotionally, and I don't know if it's because as a child I didn't really allow myself to feel anger. I think societally, I was told I shouldn't be angry. And so, when it comes up inside me, it heats up really quick to a boiling point. And my goal for this year is not—let me be very clear—is not to say I am going to stop being angry because that is actually the problem. It is not to say I can't feel angry and I shouldn't feel angry. It's actually to tend to my anger and start to listen to what anger is trying to communicate to me. My goal with you today is to walk you through how you can do that. And I'd love if you would stay with me for a short meditation where we mindfully tend to anger and resentment. IS ANGER & RESENTMENT HEALTHY? I think the first thing I want to mention here is that anger and resentment are actually really normal healthy emotions. Nothing to be guilty of, ashamed of, annoyed by, nothing to judge, that the anger and resentment are actually healthy emotions. They come from a place of wishing things could be better or improved, and they usually show up when we experience some kind of injustice in the world or in our daily life. Maybe someone hurt your feelings or they acted in a way that made you feel unsafe. Maybe someone stopped you from succeeding. Maybe somebody judged you and you experienced that as a threat. WHY DO I FEEL SO ANGRY? Anger can show up for many reasons. Maybe it's because you're noticing the injustices in the world and that makes you angry. That political things can really make people show up in anger. And again, that doesn't mean there's anything wrong, but expressing it in a healthy way can be really useful because bottling it up, it usually numbs other feelings, it can wear down your mental health, and it can mean—and I have learnt this the hard way—is that we then explode and end up saying things we don't mean, or doing things we don't want to do that don't align up with our values or showing up the way that we want. And for me, that's a big part of my goal this year. Now, the reason I actually am doing this, this is not a scheduled podcast, is yesterday my husband and I were having a disagreement. And sometimes I have to remind myself like, disagreements aren't a problem. Because in my mind, disagreement is like, "Oh my gosh, terrible things are about to happen and I'm very scared. Please love me forever." You know what I mean? And my husband has to keep gently saying like it's okay that we don't agree on everything. We were having a disagreement and I could feel the anger showing up in my body. And I was trying to really focus on just being mindful of that experience, because when I don't do that, my immediate response is, "Fight. Let's go to war. Let me show you how you are wrong. Let me be very clear in my boundary that you cannot cross," which is all fine. Again, none of that's wrong, but I could feel myself heating to a boiling point in a very, very short amount of time. I've been really trying to instead of acting on anger in certain situations-- again, there's nothing wrong if you need to act on anger. WHEN IS ANGER APPROPRIATE? Sometimes if you're in a dangerous position, you need to act on anger. But I'm really working on allowing anger, befriending and tending to anger. Anger can be our friend. Like, what's the problem? Let's actually have it, Kimberley. Let's actually feel it. Let's actually feel it go through my body. Let's allow it to burn itself off. And let's do that, not because we got to make our point and make sure they know we're right, but because you actually felt it. You allowed it, you rode the wave of it, it burnt off. And it always burns off. That's the thing. That's mindfulness—to recognize that everything is temporary. If you say-- I'm talking to myself here. If you say what you say when you're angry, you mightn't have said it in a way that is effective as if you had said that thing a few moments later when you've let a little bit of that anger burn off. Again, I'm not saying here that there's anything wrong with just saying what you need to say, but for me personally, I'm really trying this year. One of my biggest goals is respect through my words. Respect through my words. Really pausing and being really intentional with my words. And I know that when I'm angry, that is absolutely not happening. So, we know that expressing anger is fine. We know that bottling it in is usually problematic. Pretending you're not mad is also inauthentic. Sometimes my husband's like, "You're so clearly mad." And I'm like, "No, I'm not." And he's like, "Yeah, it's all over your face, my friend." People can sense it. And then they're questioning like, "Why isn't she being honest with me?" WHY DOES ANGER FEEL DANGEROUS? But I want to acknowledge that anger can feel like an emotional rollercoaster. It does stress out the body. Anger can feel very dangerous sometimes. It can feel very scary to some people, particularly if you have anxiety about it. Some people are really afraid of what they'll do if they get angry and so they avoid anger and they avoid confrontation and they avoid setting boundaries in fear that anger will come up. Now, there are a few ways you can bring mindfulness to anger, and that is, first, to recognize it, to observe it. Another way you can diffuse anger is to use your body. This is a big one for me because when I'm angry, I have so much adrenaline pumping through my body, which is a healthy response. We need that. Like if there was a burglar at my door, anger would show up and my brain would send out adrenaline and that would allow me to either fight or run away or wrestle him or whatever it may be. So, I feel a lot of that adrenaline in my body and it does take time to burn off. And so, sometimes moving my body can be really helpful—stretching, taking a walk, taking some breaths, which we're going to do today. Some people want to journal, chat with a friend. That irritation and frustration that we feel in our body, it's okay to move your body and tend to it in that way. The last thing I would add is often when we are angry or if we haven't been mindful in the emotion and sensations and experiences that lead up to anger, we can actually notice that our thoughts are very distorted. Here is an example. My husband and I are having a disagreement about a very normal thing. It was a very pretty non-issue issue. But in my mind I could. Once I was really being mindful, I could notice thoughts like, we should agree, we're going to always fight if we don't agree. It's like, okay, that doesn't have to be the case. I was also having thoughts like if he doesn't agree, well then, I won't get my way and then I'll be held down. I'm having this very catastrophic thought—I'll be held down and ruled by my husband. It's like, well, that's not true either. He's never going to do that. I'm noticing all these thoughts. If he disagrees with me, that means he's judging me and thinking I'm bad. Can we actually look at that distortion as well? Because maybe that's me mind reading. I'm just giving you some examples. I'm not saying these are all ways happening, but these are some examples. Sometimes we have thoughts like, no, you should not think that way. You need to think my way. My way is the only way. PS, I do that a lot sometimes. I'm just telling you the truth here. But again, that doesn't mean we have to act on those thoughts. If we can just acknowledge them and be like, "Okay, let's be in choir." Is that in fact true? Do we all have to agree? How wonderful is it that my husband and I don't agree on some things because he has actually taught me how to change the way I think about some things that have benefited me. It just took a lot of stubbornness on my part to be flexible enough to see his side of the story. And so, if we can observe the distortions of our thinking, sometimes that can be really helpful. But let's also reserve some space here for the situations where you don't have any distortions and the person is being very unkind and they are hurting you. That's different. Then, what we can do is we can use that anger as information so that we know what we need to do to protect ourselves. Sometimes it's setting a boundary. "You can't speak to me like that." Sometimes it's saying, "You can't come into my house and do these things to me." Sometimes it's saying, "I'm going to not follow you on Instagram if it makes me angry." Or if you're seeing a bunch of things that's not helpful to your mental health and is making you compare and get angry, maybe you might want to not follow that person anymore. And so, anger, again, if you can see it for what it is, is an opportunity to listen to what is going on and be mindful and just acknowledge, and then if need be, make some changes gently that line up with your values. And so, that's really important for us to recognize. IS ANGER MASKING ANOTHER EMOTION? Now there's one-- again, I keep saying that. There's one other thing I want you to think about, which is, sometimes underneath anger is another emotion—fear, shame, guilt. For me, I actually realized about a month ago, and I'll just share this with you, sorry, is I was noticing a lot of resentment showing up, particularly—if I'm being completely honest with you all, which I always want to be—a lot of resentment around the fact that I live in America. And I was noticing it showing up and going, "This is really weird. Why is resentment showing up? I chose to live here. I knew that was my choice, but a lot of resentment was showing up." And through talking with a dear friend underneath this anger and resentment, and I felt myself having a tantrum over it, I realized I was deeply grieving and missing my family. Usually, I just feel miss like I'm missing them and I feel sad, but the anger and resentment was masking me from it. And when I acknowledged that, I realized I'm staying in anger because the sadness was "too painful." In my mind, it felt unbearable. And so, my brain presented to me an opportunity to stay in resentment and anger and really cycle and ruminate on that instead of dropping down into the sadness that I felt. So, again, anger is complex but also quite simple if we talk about it, like two opposing things at the same time. But what I want to offer to you is, all of these feelings are completely normal. If we can just simply acknowledge them with a sense of kindness, if we can stay with the sensation, if we can stay in compassion for ourselves, we can actually write out these emotions and they can be, what I say to myself, it's not a problem. That's my new thing. I keep saying to myself like, "Oh, I'm noticing anger. That's not a problem. It's totally okay for you to feel this, Kimberley." "Oh, I'm noticing anxiety. That's totally not a problem, Kimberley. Let's stay with it. Let's feel it." ANGER AND RESENTMENT MEDITATION And so, let's begin with a short meditation to where you may practice that. Now, if you're driving, number one, please do not close your eyes. Number two, if you're feeling an urge to turn off this podcast now and be like, "I got what I needed," please just listen. You don't even have to practice. I just want you to listen to what I'm saying and see if anything lands. Here we go. We're going to mindfully tend to feelings of anger and resentment. Bring your awareness to whatever is going on for you right now... and allow your body to rest as you feel the pool of gravity down on the chair or the bed or whatever it is that you're resting on. And as you are aware of your weight sinking down to that point of contact between you and the floor, the chair, or the bed, I want you to notice what sensations are you noticing right now. Where does anger show up for you? Where does resentment show up for you? Are they the same or are they different? And just take some time to notice any resistance towards noticing anger and resentment. And if you notice any tension or resistance, gently turn towards them. Maybe you offer a gentle hello to them. Good morning. Good evening. And as you notice them rise and fall in your body, offer some acceptance as best as you can that they're there. If you notice that you're tensing up around them with each outbreath, see if you can let go or release any tension in your muscles or in your mind. Again, not trying to get rid of them, but also not holding on to them. Soften your body as best as you can, bringing acceptance to those sensations. Continuing to breathe in no particular fashion at all, except whatever feels easy for you. Notice any thoughts as they arise and they pass through your mind. Notice if there's any thoughts of blame or shame or guilt or aggression. And notice them for what they are, which is emotions, sensations. See if you can let them come and go, rise and fall without over-identifying with the content of those thoughts, without engaging with the content. Just note them. "Oh, I'm noticing blame. I'm noticing the urge to punish that person. I'm noticing the urge to create justice. I'm noticing the experience or urge to neutralize the pain they've caused me by punishing them." And see if you can just notice them, maybe as clouds in the sky just floating by. No need to rip them out of the sky. Just notice them. And as you notice they're floating by, can you let go of them? Can you let go of needing to control them or make them go away? And we want to do this kindly and gently. Sometimes it's helpful to gently bring the sides of your mouth up and gently smile. Not to make the feelings again go away, but to let your brain know that you're here, that you're not going to judge it for what it's experiencing, and that you've got your back here. And now, allow your awareness to broaden and gather the whole experience of breathing into your body with ease. As you breathe in, knowing that you're breathing in, and breathing out, knowing that you're breathing out. Can you feel an awareness that flows through you as you breathe? And can your breath be an anchor in this present moment? Noticing each breath as you inhale and exhale. Noticing any judgment you have for yourself as you have these sensations, any self-criticism. Again, just note them, acknowledge them. Try to remind yourself that anger is a normal and healthy emotion. You may also want to congratulate yourself for tending to your anger in this moment, instead of internalizing it or displacing it onto other people. And every time you notice your mind has wandered, gently bring your mind back to the breath or the awareness of these sensations in your body. Now again, expand your awareness back to feeling gravity pull you down as it sits and stands or lies. If there's anything left behind he…
Full show notes at the publisherIn this week's podcast, I talked with Lynn Lyons about her new book, The Anxiety Audit (7 Sneaky Ways Anxiety Takes Hold and How to Escape Them). We discuss: How repetitive negative thinking disguises itself as problem-solving How catastrophic thinking makes the world a dangerous place and demands you react accordingly How big conclusions and an all-or-nothing approach make the world smaller and harder to navigate. How a fear of judgment isolates and disconnects us from people How being busy and overscheduled both adds and masquerade anxiety and stress How we blame others when we are irritable How self-care becomes not self-care at all Transcript This editable transcript was computer generated and might contain errors. People can also change the text after it is created. Kimberley Quinlan: Okay, good. Well, welcome, Lynn Lyons. I am so thrilled to have you on the show today. Okay, so very exciting. Lynn Lyons: Oh well, thanks for having me. Kimberley Quinlan: You just wrote another book. I will say another book. It's amazing. Please tell me before we get started. Why did you choose that as the title? Lynn Lyons: Well, what happened was we have a podcast called flusterclux. And I do that with my sister-in-law Robin; she's married to my brother. And during the pandemic, one of the courses we created together, she called it the anxiety on it because we wanted to go through the patterns that maybe people were experiencing and they didn't, they didn't have words to them, they didn't know what was going on. And so we did this course, and we put it out there, and then my publisher said, Do you want to write a book? And I said, "Oh, okay". And Robin and I said, Well, why don't you just make the course we did into a book? It'll be easy because she's never written a book before. Um, so that sort of was the genesis of it. So the publisher like the title, the anxiety on it. So the book ended up being much more expanded than the original course, but the title was from Robin. And the course we did for the podcast. Kimberley Quinlan: Right. And I loved it because there is a degree of going through your book. We're going to talk today about the seven sneaky ways anxiety takes hold and how to escape that, but I love how it is. It feels like an audit, right? You're kind of auditing through these sneaky ways anxiety can take hold. So, I love that. So, let's go through today's those seven points, and then we will go deeper if we have time. Can you tell me a little about this first main concept of how repetitive thinking disguises itself as the problem? Lynn Lyons: Yeah, it disguises itself as problem-solving. So when you are doing repetitive negative thinking,… Kimberley Quinlan: Aha. Lynn Lyons is just the lingo we use to describe worrying and ruminating. We generally distinguish between worrying and ruminating in which direction and time they head. So if you are a worrier, you tend to worry about things that haven't happened yet. And if you're a ruminator, you're going back over things, which tends to be both. It can feel pretty obsessive. A ruminator will go back over things and ask those questions. And did I say the right thing? Did I do the right thing? Did I buy the right refrigerator? Did I make the right decision? Lynn Lyons: Repetitive Negative thinking. The problem with it is that the thinking feels like the solution. Remember, anxiety seeks that certainty. If I just go over it, if I just think about it, if I just talk about it, if I just ask people about it, if I just get more information about it, that will lead me to a solution. But what we know is that the thinking is actually the problem because when you overthink, Lynn Lyons: You're caught in that repetitive cycle. You're seeking that certainty. So you don't move forward, and you don't take action. It just feels like you're doing something productive. But unfortunately, you're when people go to therapy, if they have this kind of obsessive thinking and they get caught in it, is that the therapist will unknowingly say, Well, let's think about this, or Let's talk about this, some more. Let's explore this. Or What could that mean and the anxieties? Like, Yeah, I love this lady. Now we get to do our thing. Lynn Lyons: What we know about people that tend to overthink and get into this repetitive negative thinking is that they are less likely to act on a solution if they come across one in their thinking. So they're saying, "Oh, I'm thinking to figure this out," but then they never take the necessary action. Yeah. So it's a way to trick you into thinking you're doing the right thing. When you're just feeding your rumination feeding your worry, Kimberley Quinlan: I love it, and you mentioned in your book Chewing the mental card, which I thought was just classic and… Lynn Lyons: Mmm. M. Kimberley Quinlan: hilarious. I grew up on a farm, so that was very appropriate. I love it. Let's go to number two, how catastrophic thinking makes a world, the world a dangerous place and demands. You react accordingly,… Lynn Lyons: Sure. So catastrophic thinking this is like the meat of the anxiety sandwich… Kimberley Quinlan: do you want to share about that? Lynn Lyons: You're always wondering, worrying about, or vividly imagining the worst thing that could happen. And again, this feels like a solution. So if you are a parent and you have this catastrophic way of thinking, you're thinking, all right, so if I can imagine every bad thing that could happen to my child, then I can be ready for it. I can prepare for it; I can prevent it. But what we know is that the more catastrophic you are, the more you think about the bad things that could happen. 00:05:00 Lynn Lyons: The more fearful you are, doesn't mean that you're better prepared to manage things; it means that you start to avoid and remove things from your life. So, Yeah. So it just becomes again. It becomes this way of the anxiety dictating what you do and don't do. Kimberley Quinlan: Right? You talked in this chapter about the pain. The Pain Catastrophizing Scale and… Lynn Lyons: Mmm. Kimberley Quinlan: that's something that I didn't know a lot about, which I found. Very fascinating. Do you want to share your little thoughts on that? Lynn Lyons: Sure. So what we know from pain and pain is such an interesting phenomenon, isn't it? It's such a rich place for research and study. If you could testify about your pain. So if you anticipate that your pain is going to be terrible, You will respond as if the pain is worse than it is. And one of the things that's interesting is I work a lot with kids and a lot with families and parents. One of the fascinating things is that, say, you've got a child in pain, and you ask the parent to rate the child's pain. Say the child rates their pain as a four. The parent weighs the child's pain as an eight. Lynn Lyons: The parent's rating of the pain is a predictor of impairment in the child. Kimberley Quinlan: Huh. Lynn Lyons: Completely independent of, you know, maybe the child says Oh my pain is a two and the parent says, Oh the truck might try. I'm so worried about my child. I think their pain is an eight that parents catastrophizing about the pain. Predicts whether or not that child goes to school whether or not they predict an activities how much of their life is impaired by the pain. Even though the child is saying, Well like that, my mom thinks the pain is a lot worse than it is. It's the parents' catastrophizing that actually has the impact. Yeah. Kimberley Quinlan: That is so interesting. And so what what really showed up for me was is that also true of like the pain of the suffering of anxiety, right? Like is if we are catastrophizing how painful the anxiety will be does that? That still the same concept scientifically Lynn Lyons: Well, I don't know about the research in terms of the way they lay it out, so clearly with with pain but here's what we do know. Catastrophic parents being a catastrophic parent about anything. Is a high risk factor for developing anxiety as a chart for children. So, if you have a catastrophic parent, it increases your risk of creating an anxious child. We also know that parents who are anxious have a six to seven times greater risk of having an anxious child. We've got some genetics in there… Kimberley Quinlan: Right. Lynn Lyons: but there's an awful lot of modeling. So when we when we look at how parents talk about the world. one of the things that when parents talk about the world as a dangerous place, when they talk about their child as being incapable of functioning, Lynn Lyons: When they step in so that their child doesn't have the opportunity to get to the other side, doesn't have the opportunity to independently problem solve, all of those things increased anxiety. And because we know that anxiety, untreated is one of the top predictors of depression, by the time you hit adolescence and young adulthood, we know that that that's that cycle is just going to continue. So when I am,… Kimberley Quinlan: Mmm. Lynn Lyons: when I am working with families and I am trying to interrupt this cycle, one of the things just as you said, one of the things I want to really target is, Is this parent catastrophizing? Lynn Lyons: About their child's ability to function and it may be catastrophizing about their mood catastrophizing about them, being upset or being nervous, right? So so my child is so anxious about this. There's no way I can send them off on this field trip or there's no way I can send them off to this summer camp because look they're so anxious. It absolutely is contagious for sure. 00:10:00 Kimberley Quinlan: And that's true of ourselves too. So if we're catastrophizing, when less likely to go on the field trip, ourselves is correct. Yeah. Lynn Lyons: That's right. Yeah, well, so say, say you're gonna get on an airplane. And you're thinking, Oh gosh I'm going go on this airplane and you start catastrophizing and imagining bad things happening on the plane or the plane crashing and you activate your whole system. So you're having these symptoms and your your stomach feels weird and your heart is pounding. You say to yourself, Oh my gosh, if I feel this bad just thinking about getting on the airplane, it's going to be horrible. When I actually get on the airplane, I better not do it. Right. So we're just watching this scary movie and… Kimberley Quinlan: Yeah. Lynn Lyons: it makes sense if you're sitting there watching a terrible movie with a horrible outcome, Of course you want to avoid that thing but we have to recognize that that catastrophic thinking is a pattern of thinking not an actual predictor of outcome. Yeah. Kimberley Quinlan: Right. Kimberley Quinlan: Yeah, and you talked about that about sleep as well. Lynn Lyons: Oh, yeah, well, the thing that most the thing, that people who are have difficulty sleeping people with insomnia, the number one thing they worry about is sleeping, right? So you can't sleep. And then you start worrying about not being able to sleep and off off the cycle goes. Yep. Kimberley Quinlan: Yeah. Yeah of for me actually I remember when I had my newborn baby. It was the fear of being tired. Lynn Lyons: Mmm. Kimberley Quinlan: So I would I would pressure myself to sleep because I'd catastrophized, what tiredness was gonna feel like,… Lynn Lyons: Yes. Yes,… Kimberley Quinlan: right. Yeah. Lynn Lyons: I've certainly many people have that. I interestingly had this client long ago who catastrophized the feeling of being hungry. That she couldn't tolerate feeling hungry so you can you can grab onto anything in catastrophize about it for sure. Kimberley Quinlan: Right. Kimberley Quinlan: Yeah. Fantastic. I agree. Yeah. Okay. Now this is cool and we've talked a little bit about this in the show before but let's just go over it really quick. How big conclusions and all or nothing approach make the world smaller and harder to navigate. Lynn Lyons: Mm-hmm. Kimberley Quinlan: You talk about going global. Do you want to share a little bit about that? Lynn Lyons: Yeah. So so global thinking, so if you have a global attributional style or a global cognitive style it means that you come to big conclusions. Usually about yourself or other people, right? So oh I never get what I want or I always screw up or nobody understands me. These are these big huge words that then if you believe that well nobody likes me. Well then you're not gonna you're not gonna step out there and take any kind of risks or reach out to people because you've already come to the conclusion. So when people are global in their thinking, they're much more likely to one break things down into parts, so they can recognize, well, there's a sequence to making friends or there's a sequence to getting a new job, or there's a sequence to cleaning out my basement. So they, they get into this place of like, Well, it's a disaster. I, you know, I can't do it and then they also begin to believe that about other people. So when you're global about other people, it shuts, Lynn Lyons: Off. Right. Well, that group of people could never like me. Or that group of people is this or that group of people, is that So, the opposite of global and we know that global thinking huge risk factor for anxiety and depression. When we're confronted with that, or when we notice that we're doing with doing that, we want to back up from it and say, Okay, so I just heard myself using that global language, right? I just heard myself say, Oh, I'll never get this done. Oh, there it was right now. Why am I saying that? Well, I'm feeling a little overwhelmed. It does look like a big project in front of me. Maybe it is a big project in front of me. So now I'm gonna break it down and I'm gonna recognize there's the beginning and a middle and an end, there's a sequence, right? And that moves us out of that big global way of thinking that's just absolutely paralyzing. Yeah. Kimberley Quinlan: Mmm. Yeah, I love that. Okay. How anxieties fear of judgment isolates, and disconnects us from the from people, right? And I, I will, if you could speak to where you also touched on the disconnection, happens on the inside. You won't share a little about that. Lynn Lyons: Yeah. So so interestingly when when when people are lonely It can be in two categories, one is that it's situational. So you've just moved to a new city. You don't know anybody. You're starting college and you're there by yourself or it can be more of a pattern of the way you interact with the world. And again the conclusions that you come to, so you look at the way that the world is connecting and interacting and you conclude that one is that everybody does it better than you,… Kimberley Quinlan: If? Lynn Lyons: right? That it's easy for everybody that it comes naturally to everybody and that it's not gonna work for you. Lynn Lyons: And you go inside and I always say, You know, you have a meeting with your anxiety inside you're having meeting and and during the meeting, you say, You know that. Well there's this is, this is terrible. I don't have the skills. Nobody wants to connect with me and also you fear the judgment of other people. So one of the mistakes that we often make with somebody who's feeling this way who's feeling isolated, who doesn't feel like they can connect is we try and talk them out of it. 00:15:00 Lynn Lyons: By saying things like, Well people don't judge or, um, you know, no…
Full show notes at the publisherThis is Your Anxiety Toolkit - Episode 318, and welcome 2023.
Welcome back, guys. Happy 2023. Happy New Year. I want you to imagine you and I are sitting down at a table and we both have the most wonderful, warm tea or coffee or water or whatever it is that you enjoy, and we are going to have a talk. You're not getting a talking too, I'm not saying that. But I want you to imagine that I'm standing in front of you or sitting in front of you and we've got eyes locked, and I am dead serious in what I'm talking to you about because I believe it to be the most important thing you need for 2023. I really, really do.
So, let's talk. Okay, you've got your tea. I've got my tea. Let's do this. Okay.
So, I want you to imagine that you have a suffering in your life. We all have suffering. It's a part of being a human. Life is 50/50. It's 50% easy and 50% hard. We all are going to have suffering this year. But I want you to imagine this scenario. It could be something that's hard for you that you're already going through or could be imagined. And I want you to think about that there's a circumstance or a situation that happened that is out of your control and it's causing you suffering. Maybe it's a thought that's intrusive, maybe it's anxiety, maybe it's depression. Maybe you have a hole in your tire, maybe you-- if you hear some people walking, it's because my whole family are upstairs playing. But maybe you have some financial stresses, relationship stresses. Maybe you feel very alone. Whatever you're suffering is, I want you to acknowledge that you're having this suffering. And then I want you to think about, who could I call to help me manage this pain in my life? Is it someone who could support me and nurture me during that suffering? Is it someone who has the solution to that problem? Is it somebody who's been through it before and they can guide you on what to do?
So what we do when we have suffering is we gather hopefully a list of people who we can help and we reach out to them. That's good coping, right? But what I want you to do differently, or maybe you're already doing this and I want you to do more of in 2023, is I want you to move you to the top of that list. I want you to be the first person you call to offer yourself the support and wisdom and guidance, right?
I'm not here to say there's anything wrong with calling the other people. In fact, I am a huge believer in gathering your peeps when things are hard, calling your speed-dial people, right? That's cool. I want you to be doing that. But I want for this year for you to move yourself to the top of the list and ask yourself, what is it that you need while you suffer? How can I support you while you suffer? What do you need to hear as you suffer? How can I tend to this suffering in a kind, compassionate, non-abandoning way? How can we be that for ourselves? We have to be at the top of the list. And I don't mean that in any preachy way. I mean it because let's look at the problems when we're not, when we don't show up at the top of the list.
We build this belief that we need other people and we don't have what it takes to get through it, right? When we put ourselves at the top of the list, we develop and grow muscles in our brain that have us start to see that we can cope really well by ourselves. That we have everything that we need, right? That is so, so beautiful.
And the reason I'm sharing this with you in this hopefully not preachy way is I was journaling the other day and I was really asking myself like, what is it that I want to talk about? What is it that I'm so passionate about? What is it that lights a fire inside me? And while, yes, I love talking about anxiety and yes, I love talking about OCD and I love talking about mental health and all the things, this one thing I believe is the biggest game changer above and beyond all the tools that I give you in my toolkit.
Oh, PS, I have to tell you, I was looking for-- I was doing a Google search on Your Anxiety Toolkit because I just had to pull up something and it's easier for me just to Google it. And when I wrote it in, this teeny tiny wooden kids toolkit showed up, like this little toolbox. And I couldn't help myself, but I had to buy it because I was like, that's exactly it, right? This is all about me giving you an array of tools and tools that are super effective and tools that you know when to use them. Because imagine if you had a saw but you were using it for the wrong thing, that would be very ineffective. So, that's the whole premise of this podcast. But I was thinking about, of all the tools in the toolkit, this might be the most important one, which is the one that teaches you how strong you are. That you are the most unconditional friend for yourself, the most unconditional friend. You are there non-stop, no matter what. No matter what happens, you have the capacity to sit with yourself in compassion while you suffer.
So, that's it, you guys. That's all I have to say. That's the goal I have for you this year. And I would love to hear and to know what outcomes you get from that. So, as you practice it, don't be afraid to, if you signed up for our newsletter, reply and let me know. How's that going for you? How's that helping?
Again, I want to really be clear here. We are not showing up for ourselves first because we don't deserve other people's help. We're still going to ask for their help, but we are moving ourselves to the front of the line. We're moving ourselves to the first person we speed dial, right? And we're showing up for ourselves as much as possible so that if the person that's second in line doesn't have the capacity for us today, that's all right because we already know that the first-speed dial person, which is us, is there ready to pick up whatever is left over. Okay?
So that is my hope for 2023. That is my hope for you for the rest of the decade as well. And this is something I feel again so incredibly strong about. Sorry, that didn't make sense. It's something I feel so deeply about. Okay?
All right. I am sending you the biggest love. I have got some super exciting, big things happening in the new year. Big for me, hopefully, helpful for you. Hopefully, that will, again, give you more tools, more effective tools, make you more clear on which ones to use and when. It will mean that the structure of the podcast will change just a little but hopefully for the better. Okay?
All right. I'll see you guys next week and we will go from there.
Have a wonderful day and it is a beautiful day to move yourself to the top of the list. Have a good one, everyone.
Welcome back, everybody. I am thrilled, thrilled, thrilled to have you here again, finishing out the year so strong. In this episode, we planned perfectly for this week because my guess is that you're starting to make New Year's resolutions or make New Year's goals, and we wanted to talk, myself and the amazing guests that we have this week, about how you can change your habits in the most compassionate and effective way.. We have back this week with us Monica Packer. She's been on the show before. To be honest, she's like a warm hug to me. I just feel like it's just sitting down and having a chat with a dear long friend, like an old friend. I love speaking with Monica. She's just got such deep wisdom to her. And so, today, we got together and talked about how to change your habits compassionately and effectively. Because when people set resolutions or New Year's goals, they're just talking about creating new habits, like how can I create new habits in my life? How can I make a change in my life? And sometimes, we tend to do that in a very aggressive, critical way. And so, we wanted to sit down and talk about how we can do that in a compassionate, effective way. Kimberley: Okay. Welcome, Monica. I'm so happy to have you here. Monica: Oh, it really is a joy. I just love everything you do and who you are, more importantly. So, I'm excited to be here again. HOW TO CHANGE YOUR HABITS Kimberley: Thank you. Thank you. Okay, so you and I were chatting, and I love this idea of preparing for the hard day, but particularly emphasizing how to change your habits that prepare you for your dark day or your hard day. Tell me a little about why that is so important to you or even how you've implemented this in your life. Monica: When I think back on my history with habit formation, it was clouded for a long time with these all-or-nothing models that taught me to have good habits, they needed to look this way, and it needed to be formed in this way. It needed to be consistent in this way. And a big part of that was not only were we supposed to have an ideal, we were supposed to start with the ideal. You just decide what the habit is and then you do it for 28 days, or whatever number we all have in our heads. You get to that magical number and it's a habit. And that never worked for me. And so, for a really long time-- well, it worked for me when I was the type A, very overachieving perfectionist. But that came at a big cost in my life. And we talked about that I think in our past interview we did together. And that cost was not one I was willing to make for a long time. I wasn't willing to sacrifice my mental and physical and spiritual health and my relationships anymore to be so performing. And so, because of that, I thought that was the only way to, one, progress in your life and have goals, but also trickle down to habits. I just thought I can do the habits that are required of me for my work and for my family, home management kind of things. But for myself, that was a different story because I thought, no, these are the habits I want, and they're so beautiful and amazing and would be so helpful in my life. But in order to get there, I can't do what that requires. I can't, so I just didn't. But then when I got back into habit formation a few years ago, which was not a plan of mine, but it just happened naturally as I was really working on identity and fulfillment in my life, I realized those two areas had to be supported with habits to just even give me the time and the energy to carve out what I needed to for those two areas of my life. And as part of that, I had to figure out habits in a new way. I know this is a really long answer to your question, but the nutshell version of this is that a lot of us, if not all of us, are set up to fail with habit formation in the way that we've been taught since we were little kids. I mean, even that number thing I said alone, like how many days does it take to form a habit – we all have a number because we've been taught a number. But that number is not realistic for most people, especially if you're in a caretaking role or in any kind of position or season of life where you have to be more reactive in nature to your responsibilities. Every day is different. Every season is different too. There's that kind of flexibility that makes it so you have to do habits differently. And so, what I've learned over the past few years is that, instead of starting with an ideal version of a habit, and that being "This is my habit," those are only ideal. Those are only possible for those best of days kind of days. When you get really good sleep, your routine is really set. It's more predictable. And that didn't work for me, didn't work for most of the women I work with. I work with primarily women. So, instead, what we want to do is both start with what I call a baseline habit and always have that be the foundational habit we come back to on our worst of days. The baseline habit to me is, the ideal is the highline. We definitely want to have the ideal in mind, like this is what I want ultimately. But the baseline is your foundational way to get there. It's the form of the habit that you can do on your worst of day, when you're really tired, when you're going through a depressive episode, when a kid feels really sick during the night, whatever it is. And having that baseline version isn't you lazying or-- what's the word? It's not you being lazy, it's not yourself saying, "Oh, I'm just going to get my permission to not do the habit." It's no. This is my best-of-day version today on this worst-of-day. This is the best I can do on this day. And because I have this version of it, not only am I able to create a habit faster, like I don't have to wait for a perfect 28 days, I also have something to always fall back onto on those days where I'm not having an ideal day. And that gives me the consistency I need to not only have that habit and what it's going to provide for me, but also have the foundation to build on, so it gets higher and higher. And boy, I don't even know how long I just talked HOW SOCIETY IMPACT OUR HABIT FORMATION Kimberley: No, no, no, no. I have lots of questions. So, what does this look like? I love this idea – the baseline habit first. Let's go way back. So, I think you're referring to-- and let's talk about what society tells us habits should look like. Now, I don't actually have this correct, I think, but I think there's a really famous book about habits that's like one of the top Amazon selling that says, is it 60 days? What is the book actually saying? Monica: Well, I've read every book and habit formation, so I'm trying to think of which one it is. They probably say 21, 28, or 100 days. Sometimes they say more than that. But yes. Kimberley: Okay. So, listeners have probably read one or more of those as well, which is cool. So, let's just acknowledge that that's being said as the standard, but would you agree that that's the standard for maybe people who don't have a mental illness or people who have a kid who's suffering? Would we agree that that's for those incredibly lucky people or privileged people, or what would we say? Monica: That was exactly the word I was going to use. It is a great standard and it's a privileged standard. And it doesn't even have to be about demographics. We can look at privileges that way in terms of gender, socioeconomic and race, and all of that. Those are all factors of course. But I would just even think about, if you've read those books and you learned so much like I did years ago, and then you tried to implement them and then you failed, whether it's sooner or later, then you qualify. You qualify as, that doesn't work for me Now, consistency does still matter and we can talk about that, but it's also not in the way we've been taught. So, there are seeds of truth that can apply to everyone in these methods that we've learned from and that have been so popular the past few years, but not so broadly prescribed to the general population. It's not fair. It's just, that's the biggest place I actually start when I talk about habit formation, is helping people understand you're not bad at habit formation, you're not broken, these methods are broken for you. Kimberley: Okay. So, that's really helpful. And I'll tell a story about that. I actually want to hear examples for you. I like this. I'm a pretty highly functioning person personally, but I think what's-- but I also have a chronic illness. And by default, I think I'm actually doing what you're talking about, but you can actually correct me maybe. I'm actually here to learn here. I'm definitely loving it. So, I have the things I want to get done on the days I don't feel well and that looks a whole lot different to the things that I expect myself to get done on the days where I do feel well. The base, you called it a baseline habit. It's more about expectations, I think maybe. My expectations on when the days I don't feel well are like the basics. Is that what you talk about? Is that what you're meaning when you say baseline? HABITS SHOULD BE SUPPORTIVE Monica: So, let's break this down just a little bit. One, starting with the idea that habits should be supportive. That's their purpose. They're not balls and chains to our lives. They shouldn't be about the prescriptions. Kimberley: It's not a checklist. Monica: The checklist, no. That's the shift I can see you've already made, is these habits are there to support me. They're to support me on my best of days and my worst of days. So, with that first breakdown, then baselines come in to any to-me supportive habit, personally supportive habit, whether that's exercise, meditation, journaling, even getting up early, deep breathing, stretching, whatever those are to you. These grounding stabilizing habits, having those baseline versions is what helps you have the consistency you need to show up on those days where your expectations need to match your reality better. Kimberley: Right. Well, that's the point, isn't it? Okay, so let's talk about they have to be attached to the reality. So, what does that look like? Okay. We'll call them-- well, how will we say it? "Hard days" and "easy days" or how will we-- Monica: I always say "best of days" and "worst of days," but that's really extreme language and I always preach against extremes, so maybe I shouldn't be using that. But whatever you're comfortable with. Kimberley: Hard days and not hard days. Let's do that. Monica: That sounds great. Because it doesn't have to be like, you can only do the baseline if it's the worst day ever. It's just less-than-ideal day. Kimberley: Okay. So, what does that look like? Monica: Okay. So, let me give you a real-life example of a seasonal shift where my reality shifted, had to shift my expectations and the way I was showing up to the supportive habits. And this is more of a personal example. This summer, I was really sick with morning sickness, like really, really, really sick. And it went on for four months straight. And I'm still sick, but I'm better, way better. But during that time, I was still able to keep up my supportive habits, my most important ones, of exercise, of meditation, of journaling for my children, and of reading. But those supportive habits looked way different than my spring version of them before I got pregnant and my fall version now where I'm feeling better. I'll take one of those examples. My exercise was I used to go for an hour-long walk and then do a strength training exercise video or something like that. It just turned into-- my baseline version of that was 20 minutes of slowly walking around my block. I didn't even go far in case I needed to go home sooner. But that still was supportive enough for me to have the time alone that I needed to be able to show up to other things. Another example of this is, journaling for me typically looks like I have this journal for my kids that takes just a few minutes, and then I have a journal for myself that also just usually takes about five minutes. I decided journaling for myself could wait. So, I only had the two-minute version of journaling. And that still meant I would journal throughout all that time. And now what's great about having those baselines is once the fall came around and I began to feel better, I was able to pick up my habits more in ways that match my reality. So, baselines, like I said, they are our less of ideal, less than ideal versions of the habits that can-- they give you the flexibility you need day to day, but season to season. So, as part of that, an important thing for women and men who are listening to know-- sorry, I'm used to talking to women, so I apologize for that. But an important thing to know is that your baselines can grow. Now my baselines even are different than the summer. They're just a little bit more time intense or energy intensive than they were. Your highs get higher and your lows get higher too. Your baselines even grow. So, the less-than-ideal versions can grow too, and they have. Kimberley: That's awesome. And it's funny as you're talking about that I'm thinking of my patients. If we can keep the black-and-white view of it, like you either do it perfectly or you don't do it, there's often this shift. It's like, "Oh no, Kimberley, I did really great. I did all my exposures this week," or "I didn't do any of my exposures this week. It's been a 'hard week.'" But then there can be a shift to, "Oh, I had such a hard day, so instead of doing all my exposures, I just did six minutes." And I think that's what you're saying in terms of it being a baseline habit of like, they gave themselves permission for it to not be perfect so that even on their "worst day," they were still able to get in that treatment that they know is going to help them for that supportive work. Is that what you would think of it as? Monica: Mm-hmm. And I have a daughter who has generalized anxiety disorder. She's on the spectrum as well. So, we have a lot of different things we need to keep up on in order for her to feel supported in her life. And even for her, we have baseline versions of these things. So, that way, in a day where she's really struggling, we still have a way for her to feel supported without that all-or-nothing model, just taking off the table altogether. Kimberley: Right. So, what kind of shifts would one have to make to create a baseline habit plan? Would we call it a "baseline habit plan"? Monica: Oh, yes. Kimberley: Is this an intentional plan? Tell me. SMALL, INTENTIONAL HABIT CHANGES Monica: So, first, you need to start with some small, internal habit changes, and that's something we alluded to. Just pay attention to what your own habit story is. How did you grow up thinking habits should be formed? How do you currently think they should be formed? How do you view your capacity to form habits? And how are all of those things actually connected to you being taught habits in ways that actually are not right for you and that's okay? Having that internal shift to one own, "Oh, I've been following the wrong model. So, I'm not broken and I'm capable of forming habits." And also, the second shift there is just the supportive…
Full show notes at the publisherIn this podcast: Laura Ryan tells her story of overcoming superstitious Obsessions How to manage Whack-a-mole obsessions How her family helped to support her as she overcame Superstitious OCD How to get through the hard OCD days Perfectionism and Exposure & Response Prevention Links To Things We Talk About: ERP School: https://www.cbtschool.com/erp-school-lp Episode Sponsor: This episode of Your Anxiety Toolkit is brought to you by CBTschool.com. CBTschool.com is a psychoeducation platform that provides courses and other online resources for people with anxiety, OCD, and Body-Focused Repetitive Behaviors. Go to cbtschool.com to learn more. Spread the love! Everyone needs tools for anxiety...If you like Your Anxiety Toolkit Podcast, visit YOUR ANXIETY TOOLKIT PODCAST to subscribe free and you'll never miss an episode. And if you really like Your Anxiety Toolkit, I'd appreciate you telling a friend (maybe even two). EPISODE TRANSCRIPTION Kimberley Quinlan: Well, welcome, Laura. I am so excited to hear your story today about Overcoming Superstitious Obsessions. Thank you for coming on the show. Laura Ryan: Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here. Kimberley Quinlan: Yeah, so it's wonderful. I love the stories when I accidentally meet people online, and then we have this cool story that's together, but we're not like not together at all. So I love hearing your story for the first time today, and I love that. I've been a small small part of that journey for you. Tell me a little about you and your backstory in, you know, the area of recovery. Laura Ryan: Yeah. So I definitely would have had OCD my whole life, but it wasn't until I was about 17 or 18 years old that I just stumbled across something on the Internet where I was like Oh yeah, that sounds like me. I've got OCD, but it didn't. It wasn't stopping me from doing anything at that point. So I just ignored it and went on. I had three Uni degrees under my belt. I was working at a publisher and freelancing as a book editor, and then Laura Ryan: my family had some health issues, and my sister as well, had some relationship issues, and I don't think I knew what to do with the stress. Um, and OCD crept up. So gradually, it was undetectable, and then sudd, I found myself at age 22 with crippling compulsions. OVERCOMING SUPERSTITIOUS OBSESSIONS AND BREATH-HOLDING COMPULSIONS Laura Ryan: It was nothing short of torture. It was horrific. I was so ill with OCD that I would come home from a day at work, and I wouldn't even remember the day because I'd spent the whole day in fight or flight. And I had mental sort of thought replacement and breath-holding compulsions. So it was completely invisible to people around me, but it was able to kind of have control over me for the whole day. Like from the second, I woke up to the second. I went to sleep. When I eventually saw a doctor, the psychiatrist was like, Oh, and how often are you affected by these thoughts? And I just didn't understand the question because I was like, Well, every few seconds, I guess. Laura Ryan: Yeah, so they were weird. Compulsions, like a lot of Shame around them as well because they were all kind of magical thinking superstitious. Like there was no logical link. They were all like, I'm holding my breath because I think I will magically give someone a disease if I breathe out while looking at them, or Yeah, just weird. We had rules that made absolutely no sense. Laura Ryan: which, Also. yeah, it impacted my self-esteem because I've always thought of myself as a Logical person, but these just made no sense. Laura Ryan: yeah, I also became stick thin because if I, and it wasn't even anything to do with the food, it was just if you eat this food, the intrusive thought will come true. And I, it just wasn't worth their Stress of eating. and then, there was a point where Laura Ryan: I would have conflicting compulsions, so OCD would kind of be like if you do this thing or if you don't do this thing, the intrusive thought will come true, and then I would just stand there paralyzed Like unable to do anything. I don't like to think how long I've spent just standing still, like the pervasive slowness, I think it's called was just Yes, stopped me from. Doing anything? Some nights it would have taken more than an hour to get to bed. It was just I had to touch wood or Rearrange things for so long before I was able to get to sleep. yeah, so I'd been a really 00:05:00 Laura Ryan: Pleasant child and teenager big people pleaser perfectionist type person, and then all of a sudden I was this irritable, distracted young adult, and I didn't like who I was, and no one in my family knew what was going on with me. Um, and yeah, I was eventually unable to work, and I quit my job. And I was too anxious to Google things. So I looked up OCD on my podcast app, and that was when I found you were a guest on the mental illness happy hour, I think, and you played this game of one-up together, and it was like, It was incredible. It was like it was. Yeah, it was the first time I had Laura Ryan: heard of ERP and OCD. Laura Ryan: Yeah. Sorry, it was the first time I'd heard of ERP and Anxiety treatment that wasn't just meditation or gratitude, which are helpful. But sometimes, when you're in that dark place, the only thing that can get to you. It is something dark itself but also brings that humor as well. I think it is just the most powerful tool you can have when you're there. Then I started looking up Absolutely everything Kimberley Quinlan. I was absolutely your number one fan. You say you had a small part in my story. You had a huge, huge part in my story. Because I was way too unwell to drive. There was no way I would go to my GP and get a mental health care referral. I was not going anywhere near Medical Center. And barely making it out of the house. So, when I found your ERP school to do online, it was nothing short of life-saving. I was able to get enough to go to the GP then and get a referral to see a psychologist. Laura Ryan: Yeah. Kimberley Quinlan: It makes me want to cry, it does. And when can I ask a couple of questions about that when you said There's no way you would have gone to the GP because of the obsessions that held you back or just the shame of it? What was there? Another reason that that was such a huge step for you? SUPERSTITIOUS OBSESSIONS & SYMPTOMS Laura Ryan: It was mainly the superstitious obsessions. If I go there, I'll contract a disease or give someone a disease. Not even in a contaminated way. Just like a magical way. Yeah. Kimberley Quinlan: Mmm, yeah, yeah, it's funny. I don't know when I'm helping people because you just don't know what you know. Just for those who are listening, the Mental illness happy hour is an amazing podcast, and then the host had no idea what OCD was. And so, we did play a game of one up, which is where we kind of, he said something scary. And then I went up. It was something even scarier and even more gruesome and horrible. Was that something that you started practicing on your own just from that episode? Or did you take up his school to follow the whole process? Laura Ryan: A bit of both. I kind of took the one up and… Kimberley Quinlan: Inflecting. Laura Ryan: I ran because I think it just helped me. so much immediately, and then ERP school was able to lead me through in a more systematic way. Yeah. Kimberley Quinlan: Okay. Amazing. Oh, I'm so happy that I could be there. It's not so cool. Laura Ryan: Yeah, absolutely. Kimberley Quinlan: It's so cool. Kimberley Quinlan: Especially you're my Aussie friend too. That just brings me so much joy. So as you and I emailed in preparation for this, you beautifully and eloquently shared some of the pieces. I would love to hear from you if you spoke briefly about how your OCD evolved. Would you be willing to share a little bit about what that looked like for you? Laura Ryan: Yeah. Yeah. Laura Ryan: I had every kind of OCD, so as soon as I started doing ERP, OCD came back with a vengeance with some new topic and… 00:10:00 Laura Ryan: as I think a lot of OCD sufferers know, it can be especially difficult, when a new topic shows up because you don't know what's happening you are unfamiliar with. the sorts of thoughts it's going to throw you, and you don't know how to fight back yet. I remember when it initially switched from this sort of magical thinking superstition to moral OCD. Laura Ryan: Hit and run OCD, and I've heard stories about OCD sufferers turning themselves in for crimes they didn't commit, and that was absolutely the kind of thing I felt like doing at that point. I was like Laura Ryan: Although usually, I would panic when I was driving, I would constantly be checking in my rearview mirror, recycling, back driving around, again and again, to make sure I hadn't hidden anyone and then, Laura Ryan: Yeah, I think it just Really. OCD will fight back. Laura Ryan: Yeah, absolutely. MANAGING WHACK-A-MOLE OBSESSIONS Kimberley Quinlan: that must have been pretty terrifying for you, though, or demoralizing for you for it to be sort of wack-a-moleing. Whack-a-mole obsessions are when your obsessions are changing from one obsession to another. Your obsessions will be one up and one down. Switching between obsessions each day or even hour. How did you handle that? Laura Ryan: um, Laura Ryan: I think, just I think the main thing was staying in touch with the online community and because Every thought you've had, no matter how crazy it is. Someone else has had it, and someone else has probably done a compulsion. That's Like as, or more embarrassing, is something you've done. Laura Ryan: Yeah, I always think when I have a thought I met someone else's had this, and then I'll go on like OCD Reddit and find that they have. Kimberley Quinlan: Right. Absolutely. So so, that's how it evolved. Wait, you shared. Also, Where are you now? Like what does life look like for you now? Having gone through and know, you'd said You'd moved on to getting treatment. What's life like for you Now? What does recovery look like for you? Laura Ryan: So, yeah, I spent the better part of two years just really taking the time to get better. I was doing bits of freelance work, but it shouldn't have been because it was taking me way too long. I wish I'd just given myself permission to rest properly. and I don't know whether this was a part of moral OCD or whether I like to think it's just part of who I am. Still, I didn't want to go back into publishing because I Um felt like I wanted to do a job helping other people, and I especially wanted to give back to the healthcare world. Kimberley Quinlan: It. Laura Ryan: That helped me so much. When I went, I went to the hospital to do an inpatient OCD program. And the people working in the program were obviously psychologists, psychiatrists, and occupational therapists. And so, I wanted to do a course in OT. But Laura Ryan: Then I saw speech-language, pathology, and I've been doing that course for the last two years, and I'm just about to graduate. So, Yeah. Kimberley Quinlan: Wow, that's so cool. Does OCD have something to say about you returning to school for that? Like, how did it How did your OCD handle that decision? Laura Ryan: Oh my gosh, it was so. mad at me for picking something that I needed to do hospital placements to complete. Especially being speech-language. I think they called in America speech-language therapists, in hospitals, at least in Australia, there, they see the people with the Like worst neurodegenerative or the scariest diseases, or they've just had a stroke. Like, really, the most triggering things I could have thought of at the start of my journey. And yeah, and like, you have to like to touch them and would never ever have thought that I could have done this a couple of years ago. Kimberley Quinlan: Yeah. In ERP school, we talk about your hierarchy, right? Like it would have been a 10 out of 10. I'm guessing you're like doing 10 out of 10… Laura Ryan: Yeah. Kimberley Quinlan: it's incredible of all the careers; you picked like your 10 out of 10. That's incredible. Right. Yeah. So was that like a decision? Like I'm doing it as an exposure, or is it just like your values led you there to get to that place? Laura Ryan: It was definitely my values and took me. And my therapist, a lot of coaching to get me through. Yeah. Kimberley Quinlan: Wow, it's so cool. It's so cool. It's like perfect, right? Because it's so often, I hear of people who have the career that they wanted, and their OCB gets in the way, right? You know, there he'll have health anxiety in there, and us or they have their teacher, but they have thoughts of, or pedophilia obsessions and impacts their work. Like you, you went the other direction where you moved into the career after your treatment which is just so cool. I love that you did that. So one thing you shared, Was what you find hard, and I love that you included that piece in what you find hard. So, would you be willing to share, What do you find hard? We talk about It's a beautiful day to do hard things, but What is it? It's okay that things are still hard. What do you find still hard? Laura Ryan: Yeah, I find it now that I have so much functionality back compared to where I was not leaving the house to pretty much do everything that I want and need to, I find it hard to find the motivation to do ERP to kick those last mental compulsions, and those things that kind of still follow me around all day. Yeah, I think. I think now it's less about functionality and now more about doing it to get back that quality of life. Laura Ryan: which, yeah, I think I often find really hard to it's much easier to. When you're doing ERP to reason with yourself, oh, I deserve to be able to leave the house and go to the shops. And so that's why I'm doing this thing that feels so awful. But when you're just saying, "Oh, I'm doing this now just because I want to be happy." It's a lot harder to reason with myself Kimberley Quinlan: Yeah, it's like you said at the beginning and I've heard that many times that if it's not impeding in your functioning, it is easier to sweep it under the rug and cope and not address the problem. And I've heard that many times. So I think that's a really valid point of, you know, a lot of people will say like there's a really strong. Why are they doing the exposures? There's not a strong why it's hard to do it. How are you learning or starting to practice tools to manage what's worked for you? And what hasn't Laura Ryan: 'm getting a lot better at being less of a people pleaser and getting better at not putting everyone else before myself filling up my own cup so that I have some to give to everyone else. Yeah, I'm it is hard, but I'm definitely getting better at doing things because Laura Ryan: Yeah, if I give myself that, Quality of life. I can be. Even at least I can be if not for me, I can be there better for my family and friends. Kimberley Quinlan: Yeah. Yeah. Is there you know, if you were to work? I mean, I'm assuming people listening are having similar struggles. Can you walk me through moment to moment how you muster up motivation? Or maybe it's a different experience to get yourself to do. Those exposures? Like, what do their steps involve? Or how do you get to that place? MOTIVATION FOR ERP 00:20:00 Laura Ryan: Yeah, one of my favorite tools is just before I do anything. So if I'm if I've just driven in the car t…
Full show notes at the publisherSUMMARY: How to include family members in ocd treatment Supporting siblings during ocd treatment How to apply the "be seen" model Ocd family therapy: including siblings as "assistant coaches" Developing empathy during ocd treatment Links To Things I Talk About: ERP School https://peaceofmind.com/for-siblings/ OCD Stories (with Jessica Serber) https://theocdstories.com/episode/dr-michelle-witkin-siblings-and-ocd/ https://www.amazon.com/When-Family-Member-Has-Obsessive-Compulsive/dp/1626252467 When a Family Member has OCD https://www.anxioustoddlers.com/psp-050-explaining-ocd/#.Y2Lc2S1h2Tc Krista's webpage Instagram: @anxiouslybalanced Episode Sponsor:This episode of Your Anxiety Toolkit is brought to you by CBTschool.com. CBTschool.com is a psychoeducation platform that provides courses and other online resources for people with anxiety, OCD, and Body-Focused Repetitive Behaviors. Go to cbtschool.com to learn more. Spread the love! Everyone needs tools for anxiety...If you like Your Anxiety Toolkit Podcast, visit YOUR ANXIETY TOOLKIT PODCAST to subscribe free and you'll never miss an episode. And if you really like Your Anxiety Toolkit, I'd appreciate you telling a friend (maybe even two). EPISODE TRANSCRIPTION Kimberley Quinlan: Well, welcome Krista Reid. I am so excited to number one connect with you, but to talk about a topic that I don't talk a lot about which is something that I'm excited to really talk about with you today. A Peaceful Balance Wichita: Yes, thank you so much for having me. Kimberley Quinlan: So welcome. A Peaceful Balance Wichita: I'm excited. Kimberley Quinlan: Yeah. Look at you. You're all the people who don't see, you're like everything's bright and it's so happy. It makes me so joyful just to see you. A Peaceful Balance Wichita: Thank you, anybody. That has met me. Will get it. I'm a very colorful person. Thank you. Kimberley Quinlan: I love that that we need more of you in the world. Kimberley Quinlan: I really feel Yeah, good thing. I made children that sort of created more of me, right? That's the best I can do. A Peaceful Balance Wichita: I we need more of you. A Peaceful Balance Wichita: You go. There you go. Kimberley Quinlan: All right, let's talk about supportive siblings. Let's talk about… A Peaceful Balance Wichita: Yeah. SIBLINGS AND OCD Kimberley Quinlan: how the family can play a role in recovery. I kind of want you to take the lead here and tell me everything, you know. So tell me a little bit about why this subject is important to you and how you used it in clinical and in the field of OCD. A Peaceful Balance Wichita: Yeah, absolutely. And so I'll give you just a little bit of background. I always have been interested in sibling dynamics, and in fact, when I was in grad school completing my thesis, I even consulted the director of the program. I said, Are there any theories about siblings? And he's like, well, you know, there's the one by Alf or Alfred Adler on birth order. But really outside of that, no and that has just always been so entirely profound. Because when we think about family work, if you're looking at family theories, if you're looking at different types of family interventions and models, a lot of them really focus on parent child. And when you're dealing specifically with a child who has an, I'll go into the physical medical side as well, because I don't think this is exclusively just OCD or just mental illness. Kimberley Quinlan: Mmm. A Peaceful Balance Wichita: when we're seeing that a lot of times, the model is fixated on the child with the medical issue and the parent And what I was finding was that siblings. They kind of get othered In this. It's full process and the definition of other. It is essentially, you know, being excluded from meetings being excluded from family sessions being excluded in some way, shape or form. Now I could see how potential listeners will say, Well, isn't it that child with the OCD the child with the medical issues othered Yes, I'm not debating that at all, I'm saying, primarily within the family unit, that the sibling themselves can get very other and siblings struggle when their sibling has a disorder. You… Kimberley Quinlan: Mmm. A Peaceful Balance Wichita: they can struggle emotionally, they can struggle behaviorally. You know, just looking at the construct of OCD, they could struggle with the with the grief. Of their sibling having OCD, the moods that may come with the disorder. And oftentimes, this can lead to resentment within the sibling relationship, or even guilt or shame. And I I have siblings, and I think this potentially might be even where a lot of my work is very important because I am very close to my siblings. I am super close. Like I I feel like I'm very fortunate. I have, I have amazing relationships with my siblings and so it absolutely breaks my heart when you see a child. A Peaceful Balance Wichita: Who who has this? Some type of distance within their sibling relationship either because they themselves have the disorder or their sibling has the disorder. And so, I started finding different ways to incorporate siblings and to the therapeutic model. I'm really big into family work. I don't understand how special when you're working pediatrics pediatrics. And that's primarily what I'm going to focus on today is a pediatric work. I don't understand how when you're working with pediatrics? How you you can't have the family involved? To me, that doesn't make any sense because we're seeing, especially in the outpatient world, we're seeing these kids an hour a week, so tops four hours a month. Pretty sure there with their families, a lot more than just four hours a month. and then thinking about, A Peaceful Balance Wichita: The siblings. What can we do to make them feel like they're not being other? How can they also not be parentified? Because that's sometimes happens within the disorder. World is the siblings may feel that they have to have some type of responsibility for their siblings medical issues. And that is Absolutely. I don't want any sibling to have that. I want them to have a childhood. I want them to be kids, but how can we incorporate them without parentifying them and without othering them and also bringing in the family as a whole and tackling this beast together whether that's OCD or whatever? That beast might be. 00:05:00 Kimberley Quinlan: That's so interesting because as someone who treats OCD but also treats eating disorders, I have found that, you know, you'll treat the one child who has the primary disorder. We get them better. And then a year or two later, the other kid that didn't have the the diagnosis starts to suffer and all this emotion comes out and they start to really acknowledge how painful it was for them and and it all comes out later. A Peaceful Balance Wichita: Okay. Kimberley Quinlan: But I know that there are other cases where it comes out during and you've got multiple things happening at once. So, that is why I think this is so important is Kimberley Quinlan: In my early days of treating you would be like, no, that the siblings. Fine. Look at how well they're doing. They're they're doing well in school and it's quite a miracle,… A Peaceful Balance Wichita: Yeah. INCLUDING THE WHOLE FAMILY IN OCD TREATMENT Kimberley Quinlan: isn't it? But then Yeah, it all comes out, right? It all comes out. So I love that you're talking about this, right? So you you And number number one, before we move on. Is this true of not just siblings, Would we say? This is true of partners of OCD or eating disorders or depression as well. Like Does this spread to that or… A Peaceful Balance Wichita: Yeah. I I agree a hundred percent,… Kimberley Quinlan: What are your thoughts? A Peaceful Balance Wichita: you know, this, I hate to call it curriculum because that makes it sound so sterile. A Peaceful Balance Wichita: Process I guess I'll call it and I feel that this process is and as as you know aforementioned it's not just about OCD. I can see this being across the board for any medical issue. Absolutely. It could be for Let's a roommate. Let's not even like let's let's take out the family part. Kimberley Quinlan: um, And here. A Peaceful Balance Wichita: You know what, working with a college. I college student, who has a roommate that, maybe they're pretty close with. Absolutely. I if they're willing to bring that person in, How can we incorporate them? Because doesn't that client win? That's what we're wanting… Kimberley Quinlan: Yeah. A Peaceful Balance Wichita: because we know that no matter what your medical diagnosis might be relationships, struggle, and… Kimberley Quinlan: Mm-hmm. A Peaceful Balance Wichita: that absolute last thing I would wish upon anybody. Kimberley Quinlan: yeah, I'm even thinking of me as someone with a chronic illness On how I think it even like you said it stretches to medical to like that. You know, I know I look back until tell a quick story. I look back to when I was really sick and really sick. And I even remember seeing my children, Starting to play a parental role on me. Like, What do you need today? Mom, instead of like, No, I'm supposed to be asking you that Hun. Like, I think that it's,… A Peaceful Balance Wichita: Yeah. Kimberley Quinlan: it can spread. So I I think that this is that's again why? I think this is so important. So I'm gonna skip to my main sort of questions here. Now, it's like you talk about what is called a coach Like an OCD coach. I know I've watched one of your presentations like Do you want to share with us What this model may look like? BE SEEN MODEL A Peaceful Balance Wichita: Yeah. Absolutely. So before I even talk about the OCD coach, because that's not like, I'm not reinventing the wheel, this isn't something that I think a lot of your listeners are going to say, Oh like that's that's a new thing. No, it's not a new thing especially when working pediatrics. That's a pretty common term because that's what we really want these parents, or caretakers to be of these kids. As we want them, to be able to learn how to do what we are doing with their kids. So they don't have to be in therapy forever. So, I developed this process and I call it BE SEEN seen as an acronym, because why not us medical professionals. We love our acronyms. So let's make another acronym. And also it's really easy to just to remember Kimberley Quinlan: Right. A Peaceful Balance Wichita: And I chose this specific, acronym one. It fits the letters, really nicely of what I was hoping to explain throughout this process but also for a couple different reasons. One I have OCD and I struggled as a child and adolescent and one of the primary factors in my own recovery, that was so A profound was I realized I did not want to be seen. I did not want people to note because I felt I felt bad, You know that shame just smothers you like a blanket and it just it it was embarrassing. And then I was thinking about it from the other side of siblings. 00:10:00 A Peaceful Balance Wichita: When you have a child who has a chronic illness, you think about how often, are they going into doctors appointments? How often are they going into whatever type of treatment facility? They may they may be utilizing. The sibling is often and they can get hidden. They can get hidden. And if I in fact, I think it was Chris Baer who did unstuck who actually called the sibling, the forgotten child. and I,… Kimberley Quinlan: Such a crisp, man. A Peaceful Balance Wichita: I absolutely, I'm gonna, I'm gonna get to how that whole thing. Actually, kind of birthed this idea here in a bit. A Peaceful Balance Wichita: But thinking about just how profound it could be for the sibling to be seen. And as I mentioned before,… Kimberley Quinlan: Hmm. SUPPORTING SIBLINGS DURING OCD TREATMENT A Peaceful Balance Wichita: I don't want them to be responsible for their siblings treatment. That is so incredibly inappropriate. And I want them to have a childhood, but I also want them to participate and have a relationship with their sibling. So when I think of an OCD coach essentially, how I define an OCD coach, is going to be that's going to be the adult figure. So that is going to be the person that is going to take the the child to therapy to treatments. That's going to be the main one, utilizing, exposure and response prevention therapy. They're going to be kind of the one overhead and I like using the word coach. A Peaceful Balance Wichita: Because one, I really like sports and I just think that there's something kind of neat about a coach because a coach is going to be, they're gonna be tough. They're gonna be fair. And at the end of the day, all they want is for you to win. I just think that's such a cool concept and when you tell that to a parent, a parent, a lot of times can say, Okay, so I get that because I could say, I want you to be the parent to the kid but also think about a coach because when you have your child on a team, OCD FAMILY THERAPY: INCLUDING SIBLINGS AS "ASSISTANT COACHES" A Peaceful Balance Wichita: In OCD Family Therapy, that coach is going to be tough. And I'm not trying to take the emotions out at all because we know coaches can be incredibly empathetic. The coaches are probably going to push your child a little bit more than you would put child. And so putting yourself into that role and thinking about this is for a win, I know my child might be hurting, I know my child because they're doing the exposures because you're not allowing them to have the OCD accommodated, you're pushing them to grow. So, Putting yourself into the coaches role versus only solely. The parents' role can be such a powerful metaphor for parents and I just really, really love that. So when I'm looking at the siblings, I call those the assistant coaches, those are the ones that can assist and help out. The players. A Peaceful Balance Wichita: So the child that is in OCD therapy or in treatment or whatever necessarily it might be and so be seen. So each letter of scene represents something s is supportive. How can you support the child? And I've actually created Worksheets, that are age appropriate for the sibling and the child with OCD, which again, it really could be any kind of medical thing because the acronym really doesn't exclusively cover OCD. They can do this together and so s is supportive finding different ways to support and A Peaceful Balance Wichita: With the worksheets that I've developed with ages five to 10. I just love this. It's it's an art activity and the kids together get to draw them slaying. I mean I'm using quotation marks slaying the OCD monster or making a can of like OCD away spray and so it's just a really, really cute. A activity to do and again because it's ages five to ten, that's such a level of mastery and explorative and, you know, they, they like to draw in color and play at that time. So, even if their sibling with OCD, it's a lot older. Think about what an amazing bonding experience that could be, you have a five year old sibling, and a 12 year old with OCD, that's a pretty cool, a situation able to put those two together to talk about it. A Peaceful Balance Wichita: Because then that five year old. I mean, how empowering and beautiful that is is like, okay, so you know, sibling older sibling, I'm going to draw a can of a way spray, and this is what it's going to do, and it's gonna…
Full show notes at the publisher
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