Stay ConnectedKimberley Quinlan, an anxiety specialist for over 15 years, delivers Science-Based Solutions for Anxiety, Panic, Depression, OCD, Social Anxiety, Health Anxiety, & other difficult emotions.
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Today, we're going to talk about the 15 depression symptoms you may not know about. My hope is that it will help you, number one, understand your symptoms, and number two, get help faster. Let's do this. Let's get started. I hope you are well. I hope you are kind and gentle to yourself today. I hope you are taking moments to notice that the trees are changing, the leaves are changing, and spring is here. If you're in the Northern Hemisphere, maybe the weather is changing. Also, if you're in the southern hemisphere, my lovely friends in Australia, I just want to remind you to stop and take note of the weather. It can be one of the most mindful activities we engage in, and it can help us be grounded in the present instead of thinking forward, thinking backward, and ruminating on the past and the future. I hope you can take a minute. We can take a breath right here... and you can actually take in this present moment before we get started. Today, we're talking about 15 depression symptoms you may not know about. As I said in the intro, my hope is that these symptoms help you understand what's going on for you if you're depressed or help you get help faster. Mnemonic For Depression Symptoms Now, some of you may really have a good understanding of depression symptoms. Some of you may know the common ways that it shows up, so I will first address those just to make sure you've got a basic understanding of common depression symptoms. I'm going to actually give you a mnemonic for depression symptoms. I find it's very helpful to have this on hand when I'm assessing my clients and my patients. It's a really good check-in even for myself like, what's going on? Could this be depression? Let's go through this mnemonic for depression. D is for depressed mood. I think we all know about that one. That's a very common Hollywood way of understanding people who are sad, feeling very down, and so forth. We mostly all know the D for depression. E is for energy loss and fatigue. In fact, I did a poll on Instagram. For those of you who don't follow me, go ahead and follow me @youranxietytoolkit. I did a poll and I asked, what are the most painful parts of depression, and the most common response was complete fatigue, complete exhaustion, just overwhelming tiredness and energy loss. I think that that's a really common one. It can be confusing because you're like, "What's going on?" It makes you feel like maybe there's a medical condition going on, but often it is depression. The P is for pleasure loss. Now, this is an important one that we look for in clinical work as we're looking for. Is the person with depression completely at a loss and they're not enjoying the things they used to? Are they struggling to get joy out of even the most joyful things that they used to find joyful? That's a very common one. The R is for retardation or excitation. What we're talking about there is moving very slowly, like a sloth pace or even just sitting there and staring and unable to move your body completely, inability to get motivated to move. Excitation is the other one, which is like you feel very jittery and you feel very on edge and so forth. The E is for eating changes such as appetite increase or decrease, or weight increase or decrease. Again, common symptoms for depression. The S is for sleep changes. It is very common for people with depression to either want to sleep or need to sleep all day, again, because of that energy loss. Or they lay awake for hours at night staring at the roof, unable to sleep, experiencing sleep anxiety, which can often then impact their sleep rhythm. They're sleeping all day, staying awake all night, or vice versa, but in a very lethargic way. The next S is for suicidal thoughts or what we call suicidal ideation. These are thoughts of death, thoughts of dying, and sometimes plans to die. If that is you, please do go and see a mental health professional immediately or go to your ER or call the emergency in whatever country you are. For America, it's 911. Suicidal thoughts are very, very common with depression. We have two types of suicidal thoughts in depression, and that's usually passive suicidal thoughts and then active suicidal thoughts. Passive is thoughts of death, but you just want to crawl under a rock and just go to sleep and never wake up. Active suicidal thoughts is where you're actually wishing to die. It's important to differentiate, and clinically, we do make some changes depending on which is which. The I for depression is "I am a failure." This has a lot to do with shame or loss of confidence and self-esteem issues. "I am a failure" is a big one that often doesn't get disclosed until the person is in therapy. We even did an episode a couple of weeks ago. Depression Is A Liar was the title. Depression tells you all these lies. It tells you you're a failure and you start to believe it. It tells you there's something wrong with you and you start to believe it. That is a very common part of having depression. The O is "only me to blame," and this is what we call guilt. With depression, often people will feel guilty for everything, feel guilt & regret all day, every day. "I'm not a good mom," "I'm not a good friend," "I'm not a good talk daughter," "I'm not a good employee," "I'm not a good boss," whatever it may be. And then they blame themselves, punish themselves, and a lot. The N is for no concentration. Again, when I did the poll on Instagram, so many people posted that they just cannot think, they can't plan, they can't concentrate, they can't learn if they're in school, they can't stay focused on a conversation. These are all very common symptoms of depression that may be impacting you either a little bit or, in many cases, an immense amount. They're the most common. That's a mnemonic for depression symptoms. They're the most common that we assess for. But now I want to go into the 15 depression symptoms you may not know about. The way that I'm structuring this podcast episode is I've broken it down into different categories of people. But what I want you to recognize before we go down is these are not specific to only these categories of people because it depends on the person. We have to be very person-centered when it comes to looking at depression and diagnosing depression and treating depression because there's no one way to have depression. I don't want to miscategorize any of this. I'm just talking very generally, so I want to give a disclaimer as I go through these different categories or groups of people. Please note that it's probably true for everybody. It's just more common in these groups. Before we get started, I want to remind you. I know I did an announcement. I want to remind you, the Overcoming Depression Course is going live on March 11th. This is very exciting. This is a live online course that I am teaching live on Zoom. I will be teaching you over the course of three different weekends on Saturday mornings from 9:00 to 10:30 on March 11th, March 18th, and March 25th, 2023. If you want to sign up and come and learn from me, I'll be going through five major areas in which you can make changes related to depression. I will be giving you all of this psychoeducation upfront. There will be a workbook that you can use on your own to really put the skills and tools and strategies into place. If you're interested in joining us, may I say again live, head on over to CBTSchool.com/Depression. It'll take you to the page. You can sign up there and then I will send you via email all of the information you need to be there for our live conversations. You can ask questions in the chat box. My hope is to double down with motivating you, inspiring you, educating you, and getting you feeling a little more confident on what to do if you're struggling with these symptoms. My hope is to help you see that depression is a liar and you can break free! Here we go. Depression Symptoms In Men Again, I'm speaking generally here, and I really want to be careful here because it's definitely not just men who experienced this, but I did a lot of research for this episode and these were the statistics that I found to be most common in these areas. Anger, irritability, or aggressiveness That's not in the mnemonic for depression that we went over. A lot of times people miss this core symptom, which is anger, irritability, or aggressiveness. Now, is it only men? Absolutely not. I want to be really clear here, that is absolutely not the case, but I think because of the stigma for men around showing sadness or showing depression, they have shown that men tend to express it in a different way, because sometimes men don't feel comfortable crying in public with their friends or loved ones. Not always true. Again, I'm going to keep saying not always, but I think that's a cultural expectation put on men and therefore it does come out when in the form of anger, irritability, or aggressiveness. Irritability is a huge one when it comes to depression that I have seen clinically. Problems with sexual desire and performance This is, again, not just for men, but common in the research for men is common problems with sexual desire and performance. A lot of men and women, but again, I don't want to be excluding anyone here, have found that they either have a massive lack of sexual desire or struggle to reach arousal, struggle to reach orgasm. We are going to be addressing this in-depth here in the next couple of months and I'm going to put a lot of energy into making sure we address how much it impacts people and sex. Stick around for that. I'm super excited. But there is another common depression symptom you may not know about. Sometimes we think it's anxiety that causes that, but it's not just anxiety; it can be depression too. Engaging in high-risk activities Again, not just for men, but it has been shown to be more prevalent in men. High-risk activities, spending a lot of money, driving fast in cars, gambling, drug use, and so forth. Again, not just in men, but this is another common depression symptom you may not know about and maybe diagnosed and put in a different category when really the person is deeply depressed and trying to feel pleasure. Remember we talked about the mnemonic P is for pleasure loss. Often we engage in these high-risk activities because we're just desperate to feel that sense of pleasure and exhilaration again. A need for alcohol or drugs Again, not just men and I will discuss this in other categories as well, but it is common that an increased use of alcohol and drugs could be a sign that you are getting an increased level of depression. Then what happens is when you're using a lot of alcohol and drugs, you usually have a hangover or some kind of side effect to that which makes you feel more depressed, which then makes you feel more like you need to have more alcohol and drugs. Again, it's a cycle that can really cause a lot of chaos in people's life and could be simply the first symptom or way to cope with depression. Depression Symptoms In Women Women are twice as likely to develop depression than men. That's a statistic I didn't know. Up to 1 in 4 women are likely to have major depressive disorder or major depression at some point in their life. 1 in 4, that is so high. We have to make sure we're catching people and helping people with this massive issue. Premenstrual Dysphoric Disorder Prementstrual Dysphoric Disorder involves a massive influx of depressive symptoms right before your period or at specific stages of your menstrual cycle. Very common. In fact, again, we're going to be addressing this very soon on the podcast as well. These are some areas I feel like I have completely missed as your podcast host, so I want to really make sure we're targeting and addressing these issues as we move forward. Perinatal Depression Perinatal depression occurs around pregnancy before or after pregnancy starts. Perimenopausal Depression Perimenopausal depression is around the menopausal period for people going into menopause. These are common symptoms of depression that get missed all the time or get misdiagnosed or underdiagnosed when the person is really suffering. A lot of people who follow me have said they've gone to their doctor to share how they get this massive influx of depression before their period or in their cycle, and the doctor has blown them off and said, "Eat more celery juice," or "Exercise more." While, yes, exercising can be helpful for depression, we are missing a major depression symptom, and I want you to be informed about those. Depression Symptoms In Kids Oh, the kiddos. It's so hard on the kiddos. In fact, one of the reasons I have been so hyped on talking about depression was, in August of last year, my daughter went in for her yearly checkup with her pediatrician and the pediatrician insisted on doing all of these mental checklists with her. I was saying to her, "Is this really necessary? She's doing fine. To what degree are you scaring her?" She said, "Oh, you have no idea the degree of depression in children since COVID." "I had no idea and I'm a mental health professional. How did I not know this?" She said, "Yeah, it's everywhere in kids, and kids are really good at hiding it." I literally sank in my chair like, "How did I miss this? How did I not know this?" We talked about it a lot and I think it's really important that we understand that depression symptoms in kids often look like what we call in some societies like naughty kids. Again, let's go through them. Big emotional outbursts When we see kids on the playground having big outbursts, big anger responses, again, we talked about that before, sometimes they get labeled as the naughty kids. Well, guess what? We've got to make sure we check to make sure they're not depressed. Because that is a symptom of depression. Difficulty initiating and maintaining social relationships Again, after COVID, a lot of parents I've heard have said, "Oh, I think they just lost their ability to make friends during COVID," which I totally get. We had to train my son after COVID to follow basic social cues because he hadn't seen people in so long. But again, we have to keep an eye on whether this is a symptom of depression in children. Extreme sensitivity to rejection or failure This one is so important not just for kids, but for teens, adults, everyone. With depression, we all have sensitivity to rejection of failure. No one wants that. But often a symptom of depression is extreme sensitivity and absolute devastation about getting rejected for, let's say, a school play or to be picked in soccer or they had a big issue with a test or so forth. They have a strong, strong reaction to that. Frequent absences from school and/or a sudden decline in grades If kids got a massive decline in grades or they started refusing to go to school, my instinct is to always say, "Oh, there's some anxiety going on. They're anxious. They don't want to go to school, they must be 'avoiding school' because of anxiety as a compulsion." Well, guess what? It could be depression, and let's make sure we assess these kiddos correctly. This is true for adults as well. If we're depressed, we don't want to go out, we don't want to go to the show on Friday night, we don't want to hang out w…
Full show notes at the publisherIn this episode, we are talking about the emotional toll of OCD. Kim: Welcome back, everybody. This week is going to include three of some of my most favorite people on this entire planet. We have the amazing Chris Trondsen, Alegra Kastens, and Jessica Serber—all dear friends of mine—on the podcast. This is the first time I've done an episode with more than one guest. Now, this was actually a presentation that the four of us did at multiple IOCDF conferences. It was a highly requested topic. We were talking a lot about trauma and OCD, shame and OCD, the stigma of OCD, guilt and OCD, and the depression and grief that goes with OCD. After we presented it, it actually got accepted to multiple different conferences, so we all agreed, after doing it multiple times and having such an amazing turnout, that we should re-record the entire conversation and have it on the podcast. I'm so grateful for the three of them. They all actually join me on Super Bowl Sunday—I might add—to record this episode. I am going to really encourage you to drop down into your vulnerable self and listen to what they have to say, and note the validation and acknowledgment that they give throughout the episode. It is a deep breath. That's what this episode is. Before we get into this show, let me just remind you again that we are recording live the Overcoming Depression course this weekend. On March 11th, March 18th, and March 25th, at 9:00 AM Pacific Standard Time, I will be recording the Overcoming Depression course. I am doing it live this time. If you're interested in coming on live as I record it, you can ask your questions, you can work along with me. There'll be workbooks. I'll be giving you a lot of strategies and a lot of tools to help you overcome depression. If you're interested, go to CBTSchool.com/depression. We will be meeting again, three dates in March, starting tomorrow, the 11th of March, at 9:00 AM Pacific Time. You will need to sign up ahead of time. But if for any reason you miss one of them, you can watch the replay. The replays will be uploaded. You'll have unlimited on-demand access to any of them. You'll get to hear me answering people's questions. This is the first time I've ever recorded a course live. I really felt it was so important to do it live because I knew people would have questions and I wanted to address them step by step in a manageable, bite-sized way. Again, CBTSchool.com/depression, and I will see you there. Let's get over to this incredible episode. Again, thank you, Chris Trondsen. Thank you, Alegra Kastens. Thank you, Jessica Serber. It is an honor to call you my friend and my colleague. Enjoy everybody. Kim: Welcome. This has been long, long. I've been waiting so long to do this and I'm so thrilled. This is my first time having multiple guests at once. I have three amazing guests. I'm going to let them introduce themselves. Jessica, would you like to go first? Jessica: I'm Jessica Serber. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, and I have a practice specializing in the treatment of OCD and related anxiety and obsessive-compulsive spectrum disorders in Los Angeles. I'm super passionate about working with OCD because my sister has OCD and I saw her get her life back through treatment. So, I have so much hope for everyone in this treatment process. Kim: Fantastic. So happy to have you. Chris? Chris: Hi everyone. My name is Chris Trondsen. I am also a licensed marriage family therapist here in Orange County, California at a private group practice. Besides being a therapist, I also have OCD myself and body dysmorphic disorder, both of which I specialize in treatment. Because of that, I'm passionate about advocacy. I am one of the lead advocates for the International OCD Foundation, as well as on their board and the board of OCD Southern California, as well as some leadership on some of their special interest groups. Kind of full circle for me, have OCD and now treat it. Kim: Amazing. Alegra? Alegra: My name is Alegra Kastens and I am a licensed therapist in the states of California and New York. I'm the founder of the Center for OCD, Anxiety and Eating Disorders. Like Chris, I have lived experience with OCD, anxiety, eating disorders, and basically everything, so I'm very passionate. We got a lot going on up here. I'm really passionate about treating OCD, educating, advocating for the disorder, and that is what propelled me to pursue a career as a therapist and then also to build my online platform, @obsessivelyeverafter on Instagram. GRIEF AND OCD Kim: Amazing. We have done this presentation before, actually, multiple times over the years. I feel like an area that I want to drop into as deeply as we can today to really look at the emotional toll of having and experiencing and recovering from OCD. We're going to have a real conversation style here. But first, we'll follow the format that we've used in the past. Let's first talk about grief and OCD because I think that that seems to be a lot of the reason we all came together to present on this. Alegra, would you talk specifically about some of the losses that result from having OCD? I know this actually was inspired by an Instagram post that you had put out on Instagram, so do you want to share a little bit about what those emotional losses are? Alegra: For sure. I think that number one, what a lot of people with OCD experience is what feels like a loss of identity. When OCD really attacks your values, attacks your core as a human being, whether it's pedophile obsession, sexual orientation obsessions, harm obsessions, you really start to grieve the person that you once thought you were. Of course, nothing has actually changed about you, but because of OCD, it really feels like it has. In addition to identity, there's lost relationships, there's lost time, lost experiences. For me, I dropped out of my bachelor's degree and I didn't get the four years of undergrad that a lot of people experienced. I mean, living with OCD is one of the most debilitating, difficult things to do. And that means, if you're fighting this battle and trying to survive, you probably are missing out on life and developmental milestones. Kim: Right. Was that the case for you too, Chris? Chris: Yeah. I actually host a free support group for families and one of the persons with OCD was speaking yesterday talking about how having OCD was single-handedly the most negatively impactful experience in his life. He is dealt with a lot of loss. I feel the same way. It's just not something you could shake off and recover from in the sense of just pretending nothing happened. I know for me, the grief was hard. I mean, I had mapped out what I thought my life was going to look like. I think my first stage of grief, because I think it became two stages, my first, like Alegra said, was about the loss. I always wanted to go to college and be around people in my senior year, like make friends and things like that. It's just my life became smaller and smaller. I became housebound. I missed out on normal activities, and six years of my life were pretty much spent alone. I think what Alegra also alluded to, which was the second layer of grief, was less about the things that I lost, but who I became. I didn't recognize myself in those years with OCD. I think it's hard to explain to somebody else what it's like to literally not live as yourself. I let things happen to me or I did things that I would never do in the mind state that I am in now. I was always such a brave and go-for-it kind of person and confident and I just became a shell of myself. I grieve a lot of the years lost, a lot of the things I always wanted to do, and places I wanted to go. And then I grieve the person I became because it was nothing I ever thought I could become. Kim: Jessica, will you speak also to just the events that people miss out on? I don't know if you want to speak about what you see with your clients or even with your sibling, like just the milestones that they missed and the events they missed. Jessica: Yeah, absolutely. My sister was really struggling the most with her OCD during middle school and high school. Those are such formative years, to begin with. I would say, she was on the fortunate end of the spectrum of being diagnosed relatively early on in her life. I mean, she definitely had symptoms from a very, very young age, but still, getting that diagnosis in middle school is so much before a lot of people get that. I mean, I work with people who aren't diagnosed until their twenties, thirties, and sometimes even later. Different things that most adolescents would go through she didn't. Speaking to the identity piece that Alegra brought up, a big part of her identity was being a sports fan. She was a diehard Clippers fan, and that's how everyone knew her. It was like her claim to fame. She didn't even want to go to Clippers games. My dad was trying to get tickets to try to get her excited about something to get out of the house. She missed certain events in high school because it was too anxiety-provoking to go and it was more comforting to know she could stay in the safety of the home. Their experiences all throughout the lifespan, I think that can be impacted. Even if you're not missing out on them entirely, a lot of people talk about remembering those experiences as tainted by the memories of OCD, even if they got to go experience them. Kim: Right. For me, as a clinician, I often hear two things. One is the client will say something to the likes of, "I've lost my way. I was going in this direction and I've completely lost the path I was supposed to go on." I think that is a full grief process. I think we've associated grief with the death of people, but it's not. It's deeper than that and it's about like you're talking about, identity and events and occasions. The other thing that I hear is—actually, we can go totally off script here in terms of we've talked about this in the past separately—people think that once they're recovered, they will live a really happy life and that they'll feel happy now. Like, "Oh, the relief is here, I've recovered." But I think there is a whole stage of grief that follows during recovery and then after recovery. Do you have any thoughts on that, anybody? Alegra: Well, yeah. I think it reminds me a lot of even my own experience, but my client's experiences of when you recover, there tends to be grief about life before OCD. If I'm being perfectly honest, my life will just never be what it was before OCD, and it's different and wonderful in so many ways that maybe it wouldn't be if I didn't have OCD. But I'm laughing because when you were like, "I'm going to mark my calendar in July because you're probably going to have a relapse," then I have to deal with it every six months. My brain just goes off for like two weeks. I don't know why it happens. It's just my OCD brain, and there's grief associated with that. I can go for six months and I have some intrusive thoughts, but it doesn't really do anything to me to write back in it for two weeks. That's something I have to deal with and I have to get to that acceptance place in the grieving process. I'm not going to have the brain that I did before OCD when I didn't have a single unwanted sexual thought. That just isn't happening. I think we think that we're going to get to this place after recovery, and it's like game over, I forget everything that happened in the past, but we have to remember that OCD can be traumatizing for people. Trauma is stored in the body. The brain is impacted and I think that we can carry that with us afterwards. Kim: Right. Chris: Yeah. I mean, everything that Alegra was saying—I'll never forget. I always joke, but I thought when treatment was done, rainbows were going to shoot out and butterflies. I was going to jump on my very own unicorn and ride off to the sunset. But it was like a bomb had gone off and I had survived the blast, but everything around me was completely pulverized. I just remember thinking, what do I do now? I remember going on social media to look up some of my friends from high school because my OCD got really, really bad after high school. I just remember everybody was starting to date or marry or travel and move on and I'm like, "Great, I live in my grandma's basement. I don't have anything on my calendar. I'm not dating, I don't have any friends. What do I do?" I was just completely like, "Okay, I don't even know where to begin." I felt so lost. Anything I did just didn't feel right. Like Alegra said, there was so much aftermath that I had to deal with. I had to deal with the fact that I was lost and confused and I was angry and I had all these emotions. I had these memories of just driving around. As part of my OCD, I had multiple subtypes—sexual intrusive thoughts, harm thoughts. I remember contamination, stores around me would get dirty, so I'd be driving hours to buy products from non-dirty stores at 4:00 or 5:00 in the morning, crying outside of a store because they were closed or didn't have the product I need, getting home and then my checking would kick in. You left something at the store, driving back. You just put yourself through all these different things that are just not what you would ever experience. I see it with my clients. One client sticks in mind who was in his eighties and after treatment, getting better. He wasn't happy and he is like, "I'm so happy, Chris. You helped me put OCD in remission. But I now realize that I never got married because I was scared of change. I never left the house that I hated in the city I didn't really like because I was afraid of what would happen if I moved." He's like, "I basically lived my OCD according to OCD'S rules and I'm just really depressed about that." I know we're going to talk about the positive sides and how to heal in the second half, but this is just really what OCD can ravish on our lives. Kim: Right. Jessica: If I can add one thing too really quickly, something I really think is a common experience too is that once healing happens, even if people do get certain parts of their lives back and feel like they can function again in the ways that they want to, there's always this sense of foreboding joy, that it feels good and I'm happy, but I'm just waiting for the other shoe to drop all the time. Or what if I go back to how I was and I lose all my progress? Even when there are those periods of joy and happiness and fulfillment, they might also be accompanied with some anxiety and some what-ifs. Of course, we can work on that and should work on that in treatment too because we want to maximize those periods of joy as much as we can. But that's something that I commonly see, that the anxiety sticks around just in different ways. OCD, SHAME, & GUILT Kim: Yeah, for sure. I see that very commonly too. Let's talk now about OCD, shame, and guilt. I'll actually go straight to you, Jessica, because I remember you speaking about this beautifully. Can you explain the difference between shame and guilt specifically related to how it may show up with OCD? Jessica: Yeah. I mean, they're definitely related feelings but they are different. I think the simplest way to define the difference is guilt says, "I did something bad," whereas shame says, "I am bad." Shame is really an identity-based emotion and we see a lot of shame with any theme of OCD. I…
Full show notes at the publisherI can barely hold in my excitement!
We have a three-day live event where I will teach a new course called Overcoming Depression.
I have had all of this passion show up in my body after seeing loved ones and clients struggle and after you guys repeatedly asking for a course on depression.
Our new online course called Overcoming Depression is finally here.
I will record it live on March 11th, 18th and 25th from 9:00 a.m. to 10:30 a.m.
If you are interested, please join me, and I will teach you LIVE, and you can ask all your questions.
NOTE: This course will not be considered therapy. Just like all of our courses, it will be educational.
Overcoming Depression will be me teaching you the skills I teach my clients when it comes to Psychoeducation and strategies and tools to overcome depression.
Head over to CBTSCHOOLcom/depression to sign up!
I am so excited to have you guys join me live.
I'm so excited and hope to see you there. SIGN UP at CBTschool.com/depression
OCD TREATMENT OPTIONS Today, we have Elizabeth McIngvale and we are talking all about different OCD treatment options. Elizabeth (Liz) McIngvale is the Director of the McLean OCDI Houston. She has an active clinical and research and leadership role there. McLean OCDI is a treatment center for people with OCD and she talks extensively about different OCD treatment options in this episode. She's the perfect one to talk to in this episode about knowing when you need a higher level of care, particularly related to OCD. In this episode, we walk through the different levels of care from self-help all the way through to inpatient facilities. Elizabeth spoke so beautifully about how to know when you're ready for the next step of care, what to look out for, what you should be interested in, and questions you should ask. This is such an important episode. I'm actually blown away that I haven't addressed it yet, but I'm so grateful we got to talk about it today. Elizabeth McIngvale is also a lecturer at Harvard Medical School. She treats obsessive-compulsive disorders, anxiety disorders. She's got a special interest in mental health stigma and access to mental health care. It was actually such an educational episode and I felt like it actually made me a better supervisor to my staff and a better educator as well. You're going to love this episode if you're really wanting to understand and take the stigma out of increasing your care if that's something that you need. That being said, I'm going to let you listen to Elizabeth's amazing words, and I hope you enjoy this episode just as much as I did. Have a great day, everybody. Kimberley Quinlan: Well, welcome, Liz McIngvale. I'm so excited to have you on for two reasons. Number one, I really want to talk about giving people information about OCD treatment options, but I also understand that you can also bring in a personal experience here. Anytime, someone can share their personal experience, just lights me up. So thank you for being here. Elizabeth McIngvale: Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here and yeah, I hope that both my personal but also professional kind of background in this arena might help guide. Some individuals who are kind of wondering what treatment do they need right now and and what does treatment for them look like Kimberley Quinlan: Wonderful. Do you want to share a little bit about your history with OCD and your story as much as you want to share? Elizabeth McIngvale: For sure. Yeah, I'll try to not take up too much time but you know, basically, I grew up here in Houston, Texas, where I'm from, and was diagnosed with OCD right around 12. I started showing lots of different symptoms prior on and off, but nothing that was disruptive nothing. That really would have warranted a diagnosis. I would do things like track the weather, or every time I read a book, I would start at page one because I didn't like the feeling if I picked up in between and things like that… Elizabeth McIngvale: but nothing was really out of the norm normal in the sense that I was still doing okay. And academically you know, Relationship-wise and I was functioning well until I wasn't, you know, until my intrusive thoughts, got louder and the disruption became more and more severe. Here in Houston, we have the largest medical center in the world and we are known for our healthcare and so you would think access to good care would be really accessible, but unfortunately, it just wasn't and granted, this was a long time ago, almost 20 years ago but we really started searching for treatment here in Houston and, you know, I was lucky enough that pretty early on I got a diagnosis and for most of us in the OCD world, we know that that's rare for it to happen that soon. So that was great. That was a huge blessing for me, however we couldn't find good treatment. Every provider would say things like we've never seen a case like this. We don't know how to treat this and there's not help available. You guys should assume that Liz live in a mental health hospital, the rest of her life. And so my parents were just really struggling with What do I do and How do I help my child. And so they kept researching and kept trying to figure it out and actually they got lucky enough that they stumbled across the newspaper article and in that newspaper article talked about an inpatient treatment center at the time which was called the Meninger Clinic and how they had an OCD program. There was a little bitty excerpt and immediately my dad, called my mom, they ended up calling Meninger and learning more and I ended up going to the Meninger clinic when I was 15. I went three days after my 15th birthday, I'll never forget and I talk about this a lot because my treatment stay at Meninger was the first step to my life being changed. It was the first step to me getting appropriate treatment. It didn't cure me, you know, I want to be honest about that. I think sometimes we think, okay, we go do that. We either like get cured or We don't. And, for those of us who live with OCD, we understand that management of our illnesses different than a cure, right? It was a lot of work, but it was also the beginning of a journey where I had to learn to do my own treatment and I had to learn to become my own therapist. And as much as the treatment was super successful for me, I was there for three months and my life changed. I went from being suicidal being hopeless, and not being able to function at all six to eight hour showers and completely, homebound completely riddled by rituals, to being a kid who could fully function. I was able to go back to school. Take five minute showers, do things I never thought I could do again. At the same time, I didn't realize that I had to still take ownership of my illness, I think I thought Oh like the ownership is, I did treatment and that's what it meant. Not that I needed to keep engaging in treatment. And I talk about that because I did relapse later, I ended up going… I ended up doing some outpatient in between and then back to impatient again. And for me, I had to kind of learn what level of care works for me? What does that look like? And how do I manage my illness? And to this day, I still go to outpatient therapy. It's still a big part of my life. Am I actively doing OCD work every week? No I'm doing other stuff right? Family system and boundary setting and things that are important in my life that are tough. But it's been a journey even for myself personally, to know what level of care do I need and at what point. And I think what's really interesting is that when I was 15 I would have told you I'm not going to treatment. My parents had to take me involuntarily and it was a pretty awful day the day they took me to treatment. And, you know, I say this because a lot of times when people hear my story they think Oh, well, y'all did everything right and like, it was just this, like, beautiful path to recovery. That's like, no. It was really messy and it is messy and that's okay. There is no perfect way for us to get treatment in a way that can change our life. And so I really want us to think more about the outcome and what treatment might mean to us versus being super close-minded about the process,… 00:05:00 Kimberley Quinlan: Right. Elizabeth McIngvale: because I think a lot of times we have so much anxiety around I want to go to intensive treatment. I don't want to leave my life. I don't want to put things on hold I don't want to go to this hospital like setting if that's where I'm going and really, it's not about that. It's about what might it give us in the long run, right? Kimberley Quinlan: Right. Elizabeth McIngvale: And just that chance at freedom that maybe outpatient care can no longer do. Kimberley Quinlan: Right? So for the folks who are new here and if just new to us let's sort of just because I feel like I really want to cover this as as much as we can. When you went to Meninger what was the correct OCD treatment in which you received like was it,… Elizabeth McIngvale: Yeah. Totally. Kimberley Quinlan: can you kind of give us a little bit of a view of what that looks like? Elizabeth McIngvale: Yeah. So before Meninger I had gone to outpatient providers and… Elizabeth McIngvale: I remember playing the board game life with a therapist once and I crossed the bridge and I remember her saying Liz, how does that feel? And I was like Well I don't know. Like How does it feel to you? Like what? I remember going to my mom and I was young, right? I was adolescent. I said Mom like this isn't working like we're playing the board game life, I'm not getting better, like this is not therapy and my mom was just like, well, I don't know, she didn't know, she didn't know what she should be doing or not. And so I got to Meninger and I remember there were three things that really put things in perspective for me upon arriving. The first was I met someone else like myself. I met a young girl named Amy who struggled with an eating disorder and OCD and I remember I was crying. I was vomiting. I was so sick. That was so anxious about being there and all she said to me is it's okay. I cried too. And it was the first time in my life. I met someone else like me. And for those of you who know, you know, the the value I believe advocacy has in the OCD world is because we need to feel part of a community, even when we're struggling, And so I got that but it was the first time in my life. I remember, I sat down with my therapists in this conference room and you know, I didn't believe in therapy, candidly. I had gotten really bad therapy for a long time and I just continued to get worse. So I didn't think therapy could help me. I didn't think I could get better and I really was starting to accept that I would just live a life with bad OCD forever and then I would just live in this basically, in the state of misery. And I remember I sat down and for the first time My provider starts asking me all these questions, and he doesn't seem scared. He's like, Oh yeah, no problem. Okay, tell me about this. Tell me about that. And there was this like, not egotistical like this, very humble confidence that. Oh, yeah. Like I know how to treat you, and I was just like, what? And I remember, He said, Yeah, we're gonna do Exposure & Response Prevention (ERP) I've done this before. You're not the worst case. I've seen, you know, I know how to treat this. I've done all in, It was the first time I realized, Oh my gosh, someone actually knows how to help me. Elizabeth McIngvale: And so my entire treatment was based on exposure and response prevention and you know I think ERPs come a long way as somebody who now works in this field and runs a program doing, you know, runs at the same program. We don't do ERP the same way we did when I did it. Right. When I did ERP, it was an older school model. It was a very habituation model. I remember holding contaminated sweaters and just sitting there for an hour or two, right? We don't do that anymore, but there's something about the basis, right? The core of the treatment hasn't changed and it's it's what changed my life and it's it's really important that I will say, I can't imagine what it had been like if I would have gone to an impatient or a residential setting that wasn't OCD specific and that wasn't doing evidence-based care. I would have believed in treatment even last and I would have been even more helpless. Kimberley Quinlan: Yeah, there is so much beauty to being with someone who's like, Oh yeah, I've had a worst case than you like. I've had so many clients say like that is the best thing anyone has ever said to me. Elizabeth McIngvale: Yeah. Yeah. Like okay not like Oh like I mean literally providers would say to me in Houston like we've never seen a case of severe. We don't know how to help you and it's like, Well what? So like What do I do? Kimberley Quinlan: Right. Elizabeth McIngvale: You know, Can you try and they're like, we don't know, we don't know how to try. Kimberley Quinlan: Right, right? I'm so grateful that you had that experience. This amazing. So, Let's sort of fast forward to now. You of course are an OCD specialist, we know this an amazing one. I first want to look at the term outpatient For some people, they don't know what that means. So what does OCD outpatient treatment look like? Elizabeth McIngvale: Yeah. OCD TREATMENT ONLINE Kimberley Quinlan: And would you also speak to now since covid? We also have like an online version of that so you want to elaborate on OCD treatment online? Elizabeth McIngvale: Yeah, there's so many. So actually, let's have you start first by describing self-help because I think it's. So I think it's really important When we think about levels of care to think about the continuum, right? I look at it as like,… Kimberley Quinlan: Right. Yep. OCD SELF HELP Elizabeth McIngvale: there's self-help options, there's outpatient options and then there's intensive option. Elizabeth McIngvale: Yeah. 00:10:00 Kimberley Quinlan: Beautiful, yeah. Like thats the epitome of me, like even with this podcast, right? How can we provide free or not one one one treat metn for people or in the case of CBT School, how can we help you to do it on your own? RIght, so there are sort of self lead courses or we have the self-compassion workbook for OCD, which is ultimately me as a clinician saying, If I was with a client, this is the steps I would take. So, that's the first step and we offer that all the time. And and I think I don't really actually think we've got that much research on it yet. I think we're in the early stages of that, but that is being really helpful for people who sort of want to become educated, want to understand what's going on and they feel motivated and able to do that on their own. So that's that's the self-help model, then what would we use? Elizabeth McIngvale: Well in one of the things, I want to back up for a second to just and I know you've done so many podcasts on this but for those who've skipped over this one, right, what's really most important is that you're engaging in evidence-based treatment and what we mean by that is that we want to make sure you're getting access to treatment that's been researched and that we know works for OCD. And so there's self-help that is not evidence-based for OCD and they're self-help that is evidence-based for OCD. And one of the beauties of self-help is that you don't have to look at it as a soul intervention, right? Do it while you can, you can do these workbooks, you can do these self-help, you know, in different modalities while you're going to an outpatient therapist. And then one of the things that's really beautiful is that if you live in an area where there isn't OCD providers or OCD specialists your clinicians can actually also use it as a guiding tool in treatment, right? And so again it's allows there to be this rubric of good treatment, all right? This kind of like guide book to,… Kimberley Quinlan: Yeah. Elizabeth McIngvale: you know, or handbook to say. And so Always think of that as kind of our least, invasive level of care and… Kimberley Quinlan: Right. Elizabeth McIngvale: it's a level of care. That's my goal that everyone ends up at right that you're able to get to a place… Kimberley Quinlan: Yeah. Elizabeth McIngvale: where like, yes, you're still actively enga…
Full show notes at the publisherDepression is a liar. If you have depression, the chances are, it's lying to you too. Depression is a very, very common mental health disorder, and it tends to be a very effective liar. My hope today is to get you to see the ways that it lies to you—the ways in which depression lies to you, and gets you to believe things that are not true. I believe that this part of depression, this component of managing depression is so important because the way in which depression lies to us, impacts how we see ourselves in the world, how we see the future, how we see other people, how we see our lives playing out. And that in and of itself can be devastating. Today, I want to talk about, number one, the ways in which depression lies to us and what we can do to manage that. Let's get going. THEMES OF DEPRESSION Before we start, let's talk about the themes of depression. Now, the way it was trained to me is that there are three core themes of depression. The first one being hopelessness, the second one being helplessness, and the third being worthlessness. It will often target one, some, or all of these themes. Let's go through those here and break it down. DEPRESSION LIES ABOUT THE FUTURE This is where it can really make us feel very hopeless. Depression says your future won't be good. You won't amount to anything. You won't be successful. You won't have a relationship if that's important to you. You won't have kids if that's important to you. It often will target the things that we deeply value and it'll tell us you won't get those things or you'll be doing those things wrong. Or in some ways, something bad will happen. When it targets the future, that is often when we begin to feel very hopeless. When we think about the way the human brain works, our brain does things right now, even things it doesn't want to do, knowing that it'll get a benefit or a payoff or a wonderful, joyful result. But if your brain is telling you that the result is always going to be bad, that's going to create an experience where you feel like there's no point. What's the point of doing this hard thing if my depression is telling me the future is going to be crummy anyway? What we want to do is get very skilled at catching it in its lies about the future. DEPRESSION LIES ABOUT THE PAST Depression will tell you, you did something wrong. You're terrible. That thing you did really ruined your life or ruined somebody else's life, or is proof that you're a bad person. Depression loves to ruminate on that specific event or an array of events. What we end up doing is cycling and gathering evidence. This is what depression does. It gathers evidence to back its point. What we end up doing is instead of seeing the event for what it is, which is both probably positive and negative, depression likes to magnify all of the things that you did wrong or that didn't go well. And then it wants to disqualify the positive. Often patients of mine with depression will say, "Oh, I'm a terrible person. I did this terrible thing," or "I made this terrible mistake or accident." I'll look and say, "Okay, but what about the other times where maybe you didn't make a mistake and so forth?" They will disqualify that as if it means nothing to them. It does mean something to them, but often the way in fact depression functions is it keeps you looking at the negative. And that's how you get stuck in that cycle of rumination on the negative—feeling worse and worse, feeling more shame, feeling more guilt, feeling more dread, feeling often numb because the depression is so, so strong. Now, this is where I'm going to offer to you to reframe things a little bit and look at helplessness. Depression will also tell us: "There is no one who can help you. There is no amount of support that can help you. You're helpless." Often when people come to me for their first time in session, they will say, "I'm here. I understand you can help me. But at the end of the day, I don't even think you can help me." Maybe they've read one of my articles on the internet or they've listened to a podcast and they go, "You're speaking to exactly what I'm going through, but I still don't even believe you can help me." This is where I can give them all the science and show them that I can help them and that there's treatment for depression, and it's very science-based. The depression will still lie to them and say, "There's no point. You're helpless." Now, the last piece here is about worth, and I'll touch on that here in just a little bit. Before we move into that, I want to share with you that the reason I was so excited to talk about this with you today is I'm in the process of creating a course for OCD. I'm contributing this to a bigger company and I will be creating it. You guys can have access to it too here very soon. As I was creating it, I was really starting to see and talk to a lot of people with depression and talk to people on social media. The biggest message people were saying is, "OCD lies to me. It tells me these things. My friends, my loved ones tell me that that can't possibly be true. They don't see any of these negative things, but to me, it feels so true." I wanted to let you know that we do have an online course for depression. You can go to CBTSchool.com/depression to hear more about it. DEPRESSION LIES ABOUT YOUR WORTH. Remember, one of the themes of depression is worthlessness. What it does there is it tells you, you are bad. Now, we know this can be the voice of shame, but depression and shame go very well together. In fact, they can have a whole party together if we let it go on for too long, telling you, you are bad, there is something innately wrong with you. This is a lie depression will tell you over and over again. When I say it's a lie, believe me, it is a lie. This is what I always will say with my patients—if we went to a court, we put it up with the jury and we said, "This person would like to claim that they are worthless." Then the jury is going to say, "Where is your evidence?" We're not really going to put you up in front of a jury. I don't want that to frighten you. But if we were, they would say, "Show me the evidence." Then the attorney would bring in all of the evidence of the facts that you're a wonderful person, that you're innately worthy, that you do these kind things, that you deeply care about other people, that you're a human being, and just being a human being means you're worthy. We would have all these people come in and bring evidence, but the person with depression, their OCD will gently or very meanly whisper in their ear, "That's not true," despite all the evidence. Now we know if this was an actual court case, the judge would throw this case out. They'd go, "There is a profound degree of evidence that this person is worthy. There is a profound degree of evidence that this person can rebuild their life and get their life back on track even if they're really struggling and functioning with depression." We know this to be true. I've seen it every day in my practice. I've seen people with depression manage it and go on to live wonderfully fulfilling lives. For you, I want you to keep that imagery in your mind, of that jury throwing your case out and that judge throwing your case out because the evidence does not support depression's case. It wouldn't last a second in court. Again, a lot of the points I made there are really important if you're struggling with worthlessness. You being a human being makes you innately worthy. You're not worthy one day because you did well on an exam but not worthy the next day because you crashed your car. It doesn't work like that. We're all worthy. So we have to remember that and keep that in the front of our mind, even if depression has a lot to say about that. DEPRESSION LIES ABOUT WHO YOU ARE Depression—not only does it lie about your future, not only does it lie about your past, not only does it lie about your worth, it lies about you in general. Your job and my job as a therapist is to help our minds. My job as a human, I should say, is to help our minds by being able to observe and be aware of our thoughts and catch when it's in the trend of these areas—worthlessness, hopelessness, and helplessness. If it's got any theme of those and it's very strong and very black and white, chances are, it's depression. We can then work and get tools to manage that. OVERCOMING DEPRESSION Now, as I said, I do have an online course because a lot of you will not be able to have therapy with me. First of all, I'm always going to encourage you, go and see a therapist if you can if you have depression. Over any course I could ever offer you, I would always encourage you to first see if you can get access to a mental health therapist. However, if you don't have access to that, you can go to the course to get some tools, strategies, and depression tips that you could be practicing. We go through and look at changing your thoughts. We go through changing your behaviors, looking at your activity schedule, looking at motivation. We look at a lot of that, but that is not therapy. The course is not therapy. It is not a specific depression treatment. But I will teach you everything that I tell my patients in my office. DEPRESSION TIPS & DEPRESSION TOOLS Now, before we end this, I want to first go through some depression tips & depression tools that I want to send you off with today so that you can get started right away. I really believe Your Anxiety Toolkit is all about giving as many anxiety and depression tips, tools and helpful skills as we can, so I want to send you away with some bite-size ideas on that you can start immediately. Tip #1: Start a self-compassion practice The biggest thing that depression does is it bullies us. It says horrible, mean things that you would never say to not only a loved one, even someone you hate. You probably wouldn't say as many mean things as depression has to say. Number one, start with a self-compassion and mindfulness practice. A part of your self-compassion practice is talking back to depression. Now remember, self-compassion is nurturing, it's kind, but it also doesn't set back and let people push you around. Self-compassion would never have you be bullied. If you were in a compassionate place and you saw someone else being bullied, chances are, you'd step in and say, "Hey, this isn't right," or you'd call someone who could come and assist them. Now, this goes for depression as well. Here I want you to remember, if depression is bullying you and telling you lies, you're going to have to talk back to it. I will say, I do not mind if you swear. I do not mind if you have to get a little aggressive with it. I will share with you personally the most common depressive thought that I have, and I have it a lot—you cannot handle this. I hear it many times in the day. In fact, now it almost makes me laugh a little bit because it's very boring. Depression needs to come up with some new jokes because this is the one it uses with me all the time. Often when it says that, no longer do I believe it and agree with it and go ahead and listen to what it has to say. Now, I come back with evidence and say, "You know what? I can handle it because I've handled it before. In fact, I've handled much worse than this. So depression, you can go and do whatever it is that you need to do, but you don't get to bully me anymore." Some people find that it's better to absolutely swear the biggest profanity and say, "FU, depression. Back off! You know nothing about me and you know nothing about my future and know nothing about my past, and I'm going to politely ask you to sit down because I got this." You can talk to depression in whatever way is helpful to you as long as you're talking to it as separate, not to you in the way where you're saying and swearing at yourself. Now we also know there is some evidence that you can use your name by saying, "No, Kimberley can handle this. Thank you, depression." Using the third person, we've got research and science to show that that is very empowering. I could say to depression, "Thank you, depression, but Kimberley has got this. She is going to do her best. She's going to put one foot forward and please sit down because you don't get to tell her what to do today." That is how we can talk back to depression. Tip #2: Keep your expectations small I know when you're suffering and you're starting to lose your functioning and depression is taking a lot from you. It's taken your friendships, your time, taking you away from events. It's made you miss being present with your children or your family or your loved ones. I know what it can feel like in that you feel like you have to catch up somehow. What I want to offer to you is, yes, I know you want to catch up, but the only way to catch up is to do baby steps. Please don't try and push yourself with pressure to catch up at a rate where it doesn't help you. In fact, when we put a lot of pressure on ourselves, we actually create a lot more depression because it feels scary, it feels more overwhelming, which your depression is already done to you. What I want you to do is make small, realistic expectations for the day and work at keeping the expectations small and then build on them. As you do something that was just baby steps, your depression is going to say, "See, what a loser? You're doing only small steps? You should be doing big steps." This is where you're going to go back and talk to depression and say, "Back off! I'm doing what I need to do today to take you over. I'm taking you down, depression, and I'm going to do it slowly and compassionately. It will work because I'm building habit upon habit, not just pushing myself out of self-punishment and self-judgment, and self-criticism." We know that those behaviors make depression worse, so we're actually going to cheer ourselves on. Tip #3 Celebrate your wins That is the big piece that we need to remember. The best way to change the mindset over depression is to be kind and to cheer ourselves on, to motivate ourselves, to celebrate when you make a baby step. I celebrate you if you're making baby steps. Even listening to this right now, I celebrate you. You're investing in your well-being. We want to make sure we're cheering you on. I call it the kind coach. It's the voice that says, "You can do it. Just a little more. Keep going. I believe in you. Just a little more. What would be right for you? What do you need?" It takes into consideration that, of course, you're going to have challenges. But when you have challenges, it's there to say, "What can we do to strategize? Maybe we need to rethink this. How can we rethink this in a way that makes it possible for you just to get back on track?" Baby steps at a time. I hope that was helpful. I really wanted to go over and really reinforce to you and hopefully get you to see that depression is a wire and depression is lying to you. A big part of that is you recognizing and being aware and observing and catching when it lies to you and having skills so that you can talk back to it, change the way you respond so that you're not contributing and making the depression stronger. Have a wonderfu…
Full show notes at the publisherTranscript Kimberley Quinlan: Well welcome, I cannot believe this is so exciting. I've been looking forward to this episode all week. We have the amazing. Reverend Katie O'Dunne with us to talk all about scrupulosity and religious obsessions. So welcome, Katie. Katie O'Dunne: Thank you. I'm so excited to be here and to chat about all things Faith and OCD. So thanks for having me. Kimberley Quinlan: Yeah, so let me just quickly share in ERP school we have these underneath every training, every video. There's a little question and answer and I'm very confident in answering them, but when it comes to the specifics of religion, I always try to refer to someone who is, like an expert. And so this is so timely because I feel like you are perfect to answer some of these questions. Some of the questions we have here are from, ERP school. A lot of them are from social media and so I'm so excited to chat with you. Katie O'Dunne: Thank you. Kimberley Quinlan: So tell us before we get into the questions, a little about your story and you know why you are here today? Katie O'Dunne: Yeah. So I've navigated OCD since before I can remember, but just like maybe a lot of folks listening. I was very private about that for a very long time. I had a lot of shame around, intrusive thoughts. I had a lot of shame around religious obsessions that I had, moral related obsessions, harm obsessions. And this shame particularly came because I was pursuing ministry and OCD really spiked in the midst of me going to graduate school, going to seminary. And when I was in seminary and I started really struggling, I wanted to seek treatment for the first time and was told really by a mentor that it would not help me to do that. In my ministry that I wouldn't pass my psych evaluations and that I shouldn't pursue treatment that I needed to keep that on the down low. So as many of us know, that might not get that effective evidence-based treatment I continued to get sicker Katie O'Dunne: And had a really pretty full-blown OCD episode in my first role in ministry. Katie O'Dunne: So I ended up in school chaplaincy working, with lots of students from different faith backgrounds, some of what we'll be talking about today, through an OCD lens. And I was trying to keep my OCD a secret, but in the midst of navigating, some difficult tragedies and traumas with students, my OCD latched on to every aspect of what I was navigating. And particularly in the midst of that, I was experiencing losses and mental health crises with students from different faith backgrounds. And when I came out of my own treatment, where exposure and response prevention, very much saved my life. I felt like, I had an obligation to those students that I worked with to let them know that their chaplain, that their faith leader had gone through mental health treatment and that there was no shame around doing that. And I went from the space, in seminary of being told that I shouldn't seek treatment to a space of having families call me for the first time and say, Oh now we can actually talk to you about what's going on in our life. Can you help us talk with our rabbi or our imam, or our priest about my child's diagnosis? How can we reconcile faith with treatment and that opened the door for me to continue this work in a full-time way. Where moving from those students that I love so much and now work in the area of faith and OCD full-time helping folks, navigate religious scrupulosity and very much lean into evidence-based treatment while also reconnecting with their faith in ways that are value driven to them and not dictated by OCD. Kimberley Quinlan: Hmm, it makes me teary. Just to hear you say that folks were saying, Well, now, I can share with you. That is so interesting to me. You know, I think of a reverend, as like, you can go to them with anything, you know, and for them to say that you're disclosing has open some doors, that's incredible. Katie O'Dunne: And particularly, I worked really heavily with my Hindu and Muslim students. And we had the chance to do some really awesome mental health initiatives for the South Asian community, where students started then doing projects actually in their own faith communities, and opening up about their own journeys, and then giving other space to do the same. And I really, I think about the work I do now, which is very much across faith traditions around OCD. And every person I work with, I think of those awesomely brave students, who started to come to me after my disclosure and say, Okay, we want help and also we want to share our stories and continues to inspire me. DOES RELIGIOUS OCD/SCRUPULOSITY SHOW UP BEYOND THE CHRISTIAN RELIGION? Kimberley Quinlan: Yeah, so cool! It leads me to my first question which is, does this for OCD religious scrupulosity, have you found, and I definitely have, that It goes outside of just the Christian religion. I know we hear a lot about just the Christian religion, but can you kind of give me your experience with some other religions you've had to work with? 00:05:00 Katie O'Dunne: Yeah. And so I always tell folks OCD is OCD, is OCD. And it always loves to latch on to those things that are the most significant and important to us. So it makes a lot of sense, that, that would happen with our faith tradition, whether you're Christian or Muslim or Buddhist or Sheik, or beyond or even atheist or agnostic can really transform into anything, particularly from what, you might be hearing from faith leaders and I always go back to this idea that OCD is just really gross ice cream with a lot of different gross flavors and those flavors might be in the form of the Christian faith or in the Jewish faith or in the Muslim faith. But the really big commonalities is the fact that it's not about what a person actually believes just like, with everything else with OCD. This is very much egoistonic. It's taking their beliefs. It's twisting them and it's actually pushing them further away from the tradition. So, it's just some examples. Katie O'Dunne: That we see, of course, in Christianity, you all might be familiar with obsessions around committing blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, or fear of going to hell or fear of sinning in some way. But we also see lots of different things in Islam, whether that's around not being fully focused during Friday prayers or not doing ritual washing in the appropriate way. In Judaism we see so many different things around dietary restrictions or breaking religious law. What if I'm not praying correctly? Hinduism, even what if I'm pronouncing shlokas or mantras incorrectly? What if I have done something to impact my karma or my dharma? What if I'm focusing too heavily on a particular deity or not engaging in puja correctly. or in Buddhism I see a lot of folks, really focusing on what if I never stop suffering, What if I've impacted my karma in some way? What if I don't have pure intention, alongside that action and… Kimberley Quinlan: Right. Katie O'Dunne: then all the way on the other side. We can see with any type of non-theism or atheism, agnosticism humanism What if I believe the wrong thing? What if I'm supposed to believe in God, what if I'll be punished for for not? So there are all different forms and then with any faith, tradition. I mean any form possible. That OCD could latch onto Kimberley Quinlan: Yeah, absolutely I think there's just some amazing examples I had once a client who felt his frustrations weren't correct. Katie O'Dunne: Yes. Kimberley Quinlan: And got stuck really continue and trying to perfect it so I think it can fall into any of those religions for sure. So you've already touched on this a little bit, but this was one of the questions that came from Instagram. Just basically there was saying like OCD makes me doubt my faith. Like why does it do that? Do you have any thoughts, on a specifically why OCD can make us doubt our faith? Katie O'Dunne: Yeah. I mean OCD is the doubting disorder and we always say the content is irrelevant, but it definitely doesn't feel like it. I think for anybody navigating OCD, you're most likely in a space of saying I could accept uncertainty about any theme except the one that I have right now and that's very much true with faith. If your faith is something that's significant to you and at the center of your life, it makes sense that OCD would latch on to that and that OCD would twist that particularly… Kimberley Quinlan: Right. Katie O'Dunne: because we really don't have a whole lot of certainty around faith to begin with and where there's a disorder that surrounds uncertainty and and doubt. That makes a lot of sense. And yet it's so so challenging, um, because we want to be able to answer all of these questions without OCD making us question every single thing we believe, WHEN OCD DOUBTS MY FAITH Kimberley Quinlan: Mmm. It's sort of like religious obsession. I mean relationship obsessions too in that and you're probably looking at people across the your religious faith hall or wherever going, but they are certain like why can't I get that certainty? Right. But it's like they've accepted a degree of uncertainty for them to feel certain in it. But when you have OCD, it's so hard to accept that uncertainty piece of it. Katie O'Dunne: I'm so glad you said that I actually get this question a lot. And this, this might be a strange answer for folks to hear from a minister. But I always tell folks, I'm not certain I Have devoted my life to faith traditions. I'm ordained. I'm not certain about anything including about the divine. Kimberley Quinlan: Yeah. Katie O'Dunne: I have really strong beliefs, I have strong things that I lead lean into and practices that are meaningful to me. But it doesn't mean that I have certainty. And often, when you hear someone in a faith tradition, say that there are certain, I don't think it means the same thing as what we're thinking, it means from. 00:10:00 Kimberley Quinlan: Yeah. it's Yeah,… Katie O'Dunne: a different context. They are accepting some level of uncertainty. Kimberley Quinlan: that's why I compared it to relationship OCD, You're like, but I'm not sure if I love my partner enough and everybody else is really certain but when you really ask them, they're like, No I'm not completely certain,… Katie O'Dunne: Yeah. WILL GOD PUNISH ME FOR MY INTRUSIVE THOUGHTS? Kimberley Quinlan: like I'm just certain for today or whatever it may be. So I think that that is very much a typical trade of OCD in that, it requires 100%, okay? So, so, This is actually really one of the first common questions we get when we're doing psychoeducation with clients. Which is why do I have a fear that God will punish me for my intrusive thoughts? You want to share a little about that. Katie O'Dunne: Yeah, I mean there are so many, there are so many layers with this and again, latching on to what's the most important but also latching on to particular teachings. Whether it's in a church or a mosque or a synagogue where I always say there are particular scriptures, particular, teachings, particular sermons, where you might hear things that relate to punishment in some way, or relate to rigidity, but I think folks, with OCD hear those, through a very different lens than maybe someone else in that congregation and we might hear something once at age, five or six and for the rest of our lives latch on to this idea that we're doing something wrong or that God is going to punish us, we tend to always see everything through that really, really negative lens and maybe miss all of the other things that we hear about compassion and about love and forgiveness. And I think there's also this layer for individuals with OCD often holding themselves to a higher standard than everyone else and that includes the way that they see God as viewing them. So I'll often ask folks. How do you think, how do you imagine God, viewing a friend in the situation? Just like we might do a self compassion work and they're like, Well, I believe God would be really forgiving of my friend and that they might not be perfect but that they were created to live this beautiful life. And then when asking the same thing about themselves, It's but God called me to be perfect and I have to do all of these things right. I'll ask often ask folks, What does it look like to see yourself through the same loving eyes through which God sees you or which you imagine that God sees those around you which is something we don't often do with OCD. Kimberley Quinlan: And what would they often say? Katie O'Dunne: Ah well it's so I'll actually use self-compassion practices to to turn things around. And I'll say I'll ask someone to name three kind things about themselves and then to put their hand over their heart and actually say it through the lens of God saying that to them. So I'll have them say something like The Divine created me to be compassionate, the Divine believes that I am a kind person, the Divine wants me to have this beautiful life and to be a good runner or a good baseball player or whatever that is. And it's always really difficult at the beginning just like any self-compassion practice. And then I'll watch folks start to smile and say Well maybe God does see me in that way. Kimberley Quinlan: That's lovely. Katie O'Dunne: Maybe create me in a beautiful way. DO NOT FEAR…SHOULD I TURN MY FEARS OVER TO GOD? Kimberley Quinlan: Mmm. That's what it's bringing them. Back to their religion and their faith when they do that, which is so beautiful, isn't it? Mmm. Okay, This question is very similar but I really think it was important to to address is there are some scriptures where people here that they aren't allowed to fear or that they must turn their fears over to God. Do you have any thoughts or you know, responses that you would typically use for that concern? Katie O'Dunne: Mm-hmm. Katie O'Dunne: Yeah, I think, you know, it looks very different across faith traditions and across scriptures and individuals, of course, view Scripture and in very different ways but depending on their denomination, or depending on their sect, but I think sometimes, unfortunately, those scriptures are used out of context. We see this often where there might be a particular verse that's pulled that from a translation perspective isn't necessarily really about anxiety in the same way that we're defining anxiety through an OCD lens or isn't really about intrusive thoughts, in the way that we're defining it through the lens of OCD. And I think it's really unfortunate when we hear religious leaders or folks in communities say, Well, you aren't allowed to fear or if you just prayed a little bit harder, your anxieties would be able to be turned over to God. And I think we're hearing that or they're using that and maybe a different way than the passage was intended. And then we're hearing this through a whole nother another layer where it actually could be flipped. And instead, when you're you're saying, Don't fear. I always tell folks. So what does it look like instead to not fear treatment or to do it even if you're afraid. To ask God, to give you strength in the midst of that fear and to approach that in a different way. But I think sometimes those who are taking particular passages out of context, might not fully understand the weight of OCD, or what comes with that condition. 00:15:00 HOW DO I KNOW IF IT IS…
Full show notes at the publisher5 TIPS FOR HEALTH ANXIETY DURING A DRS VISIT If you want my five tips for health anxiety during a Drs visit, especially if you have a medical condition that concerns you, this is the episode for you. Hello and welcome back everybody. Today, I'm going to share some updates about a recent medical issue I have had, and I'm going to share specific tips for dealing with health anxiety (also known as hypochondria). A lot of you who have been here with me before know I have postural orthostatic tachycardic syndrome. I also have a lesion on my left cerebellum and many other ups and downs in my medical history where I've had to get really good at managing my health anxiety. I wanted to share with you some real-time tips that I am practicing as I deal with another medical illness or another medical concern that I wanted to share with you. Here I'm going to share with you five specific tips, but I think in total, there's 20-something tips all woven in here. I've done my best to put them into just five. But do make sure you listen to the end of the podcast episode because I'm also going to give some health anxiety journal prompts or questions that you can ask yourself so that you can know how to deal with health anxiety if you're experiencing that at this time. Before we get into it, let me give you a little bit of a backstory. Several months ago, I did share that I've been having these what I call surges. They're like adrenaline surges. They wake me up. My heart isn't racing. It's not like it's racing fast, but the only way I can explain it is I feel like I have like a racehorse's heart in my chest, like this huge heart that's beating really heavily. Of course, that creates anxiety. And so then I would question like, is it the heartbeat or is it just my anxiety? You go back and you go forward trying to figure out which is which. But because this was a symptom that was persisting and was also showing up when I wasn't experiencing a lot of stress or anxiety, I thought the right thing to do is to go and see the doctor. WHAT HEALTH ANXIETY FEELS LIKE Before we get started, be sure to make sure you're not avoiding doctors. Make sure you're not dismissing symptoms. We do have to find a very, very wise balance between avoiding doctors but also not overdoing it with doctors. We'll talk about that a little bit here in a minute. But first, I wanted to just share with you what health anxiety feels like for me. Because for me, I'm very, very skilled at identifying what is anxiety and what is not. I've become very good at catching that by experience, folks. It's not something that comes naturally, but by experience, I can identify what is health anxiety and what is a real medical condition or what is something worthy of me getting checked out. For me, for the health anxiety piece, it's really this sort of anxiety that is a sense of catastrophization and it's usually in the form of thoughts like, what if this is cancer? What if this is a stroke? All the worst-case scenarios. What if this is life-threatening? What if I miss this and you are responsible, you should have picked it up. These are very common health anxiety intrusive thoughts or health anxiety thoughts that I think you really need to be able to catch and be aware and mindful of. First of all, that is the biggest symptom for me. The other thing is when you have health anxiety, you do tend to hyper-fixate on the symptom and all of the surrounding symptoms that are going with that. And then you can really catastrophize those like, "Well, my heart's beating really heavily and I feel dizzy. Oh my gosh. And I've been having a headache. Yeah, you're right, I've been having a headache. Oh my gosh." I call it 'gathering.' That's not an actual clinical term, but I do use it with my clients. We gather data that is catastrophic to make it seem like, yeah, we actually have a really big point, and this is actually a catastrophe. Some other health anxiety symptom that I experience is panic. When you notice a symptom, it is very common to start panicking. And then again, you go back to this chicken or the egg or is it the horse or the carriage in terms of I'm panicking, and now the panic has all these symptoms. Are these symptoms an actual medical condition or are they actually just anxiety and panic? You could spend a lot of time stuck in that cycle trying to figure that out. Let's now talk about how to manage these symptoms and some tips and tools that you can use. Tip #1: No Googling Let me tell you what has recently happened to me. I've been having these symptoms. I made an appointment to see my cardiologist. It was two months out and I was like, "It's not a big deal. I can handle these symptoms." I'm feeling super confident about my ability now to just ride out some pretty uncomfortable sensations and not catastrophize. I go in for my checkup, they do an echocardiogram, and it's taking a long time. She's asking me these strange questions like, "Why are you here again," as she's doing it. She's checking, she's looking, she's squinting at the screen. "Why are you here again? What are your symptoms?" Click, click, click, looking at the heart, whatever. Again, I'm in my mind going, "Kimberley, let your brain have whatever thoughts it wants. We're not going to catastrophize." I was doing really, really well. I got up and I answered her questions. I did the whole appointment. She cleaned me off when I was done and said, "Great, you've got 24 hours and then the doctor will email you with your results." And then yesterday afternoon, I get a call from the nurse saying, "We need to book you a video appointment with the doctor to discuss your results." As you can imagine, my brain went berserk. My health anxiety thoughts were saying, "This is really bad. Why would he need to make a video appointment? This can only end badly. This must be cancer. This must be heart problems. Am I going to have a heart attack and so forth?" Of course, my brain did that. I'm grateful my brain does that because that's my brain being highly functioning and aware. But the number one rule I made with myself in that exact moment, even though that was very anxiety-producing, is no Googling. Kimberley, you are not allowed to pick up the computer or the iPhone and Google anything about this. That is tip #1 for you. I'll tell you why. A lot of my patients say, "But why? It's no harm. I'm not doing any harm." And I'll say, "Yes." I've actually just seen my cardiologist. But now that I've had my appointment, he encouraged me to do a little research. What was hilarious to me is every single website is different and some catastrophize and some don't. Some go, "This could be very normal." Other ones say, "This could be cancer, cancer, cancer, cancer." This is why I'm telling my patients all the time, don't Google because what you read is different. It's not like this is going to be a factual thing. Most of the time people who have articles that rank high on Google searches are the ones who have optimized their website to be very easy to Google. The reason they have become number one on the Google algorithm is because they've included keywords like cancer for blah, blah, blah, and all of these health issues and health names. The ones that are at the top, some of them are very reasonable, helpful, and accurate, but a lot of them are not. They've just really done a great job of putting in lots and lots of keywords that makes them highly searchable and come up high on the algorithm. Please, number one, do not Google. Go to your doctor for questions if you have any. Unless they've encouraged you to do research, do not Google. TIP #2: FOLLOW IMPORTANT HEALTH ANXIETY CBT TECHNIQUES I've actually categorized this in a bigger category and I've called it important health anxiety CBT techniques, because there are some important CBT tools that you're going to need here and here we go. While I was in getting my echocardiogram, I was laying and I was having some anxiety because she was squinting and asking some strange questions, not in the normal of what I'd experienced. I could feel the pull to check her face for reassurance like, does she look concerned? Does she look relaxed? What's going on with her? I wonder what she meant. What I want to encourage you to do is acknowledge and catch when you're checking their face to try to decipher what the nurse or the assistant or the doctor is doing and saying. Because really, all I'm doing there is mind reading because I have no idea what she's thinking. I was laughing at myself because she was squinting and looking concerned. I was like, "I wonder if she's trying not to pass gas." We could mind read that she thinks I have cancer and that there's a big problem, or maybe she's just trying not to pass gas right now. Maybe she's thinking about a fight she just had with her partner. My attempt to analyze her facial expression is a complete waste of my time. You could use that tip anytime you want. The next tip for you is no reassurance seeking with nurses or doctors. Now, I actually felt almost into this trap. If I'm being completely honest, I did fall into this trap, but I caught myself really quickly. As she was finishing up, she took off her gloves and got ready to discharge me, and I said, "So, you'd let me know if there was..." I paused because what I was going to say is, "You'll let me know if there's something wrong, right?" I was going to say that. And then I was like, "No, no, no." I stopped myself and said, "You know what? I know the deal. I've done these enough times. I know I have to wait for the doctor." But I caught myself wanting to get confirmation from the nurse and I already know that nurses are not allowed to give me any diagnosis anyway. I caught myself wanting to get some expression of relief from her like, "No, you're fine. Everything looks good," or whatever. Sometimes they accidentally give you that reassurance. But I caught myself seeking reassurance from her. In addition to that—let me talk to you a little later about how we do that with doctors as well—often if you're in the office with a doctor, you may find yourself at the end of the session going, "I'll be fine, right? It's not bad, right?" It's okay, we're all going to ask some of those questions. I'm not going to be the reassurance-seeking police with you. But what I want you to do is really drop down into catching when we're engaging in reassurance seeking and using it too much to reduce our own anxiety about it, to take away our own anxiety or fear. Now, another CBT technique or sort of rule that we often set in clinical work when I'm talking with my clients who have health anxiety is also not swaying the doctor or the nurse to answer things in the way that you want. A lot of people fall into this trap. For me, I just had my doctor's appointment. We are working through and there are some little problems that we will work out. But I caught myself there wanting to sway him to be very positive. We had talked about it ultimately. He had said, "There are some issues. It could be this, it could be that, it could be this." He listed off three or four options. Some were very, very small, and of course, the third one is always like, it could be cancer. They always say at the end, like whatever. When they give you these three or four or five options on what the problem might be, it's very important that you be mindful and aware of how you're trying to sway the doctor to give you certainty. This is what my doctor said, and I'm going to be brief. I'm not going to bore you with my medical stuff, but he'll say, "It could be that you recently had COVID or an illness or a virus. It could also be this other condition, which is common, and if it's so, we'll treat that. It could also be that there could be some rheumatoid arthritis and that's a longer treatment. And then the final thing, which we don't think so, but it also could be cancer. "Let's say he lists off these four options. Now, this is very common. Doctors will do this often because their job is to educate us on all of the possibilities so that we can create a treatment plan that doesn't ignore big issues, but we have to be careful that we don't spend their time and our time going, "You think it's the first one, right? It's probably just the first one. I probably just had a virus, right?" I'm really swaying him towards giving an answer when he's already told us that he or she doesn't know yet. He's already said, "I don't know yet. We're going to need to do extra tests." Catch yourself trying to get them to reassure you and confirm that it's definitely not the C word. The cancer word is what I'm saying there. Catch yourself when you're doing those behaviors in the office with either the nurses or the technician or the doctors. Very, very important. Now, one other thing I want you to also catch is if you're coming to them with something, let's say you are coming to them with a concern that you've pretty much know is your health anxiety, but you want reassurance that it's not, also be careful that you don't overly list things to convince them that something is wrong. A lot of you don't do this, I know, but I have had a lot of clients who've come back to me after seeing the doctor and said, "Do you have any other symptoms," and they would list even minor symptoms that they had a month ago that they knew had nothing to do with it. But they felt like if they didn't say it all, if they didn't include every symptom, every stomach ache, every headache, everything, they could miss something. So also keep an eye out for that. That's some sort of overall general CBT techniques we use for health anxiety that help guide people into not engaging in those health anxiety compulsions. TIP #3: HEALTH ANXIETY HELP DURING YOUR DOCTOR'S VISIT This is a really important part of it. From the minute that I got the call from the nurse that he wanted a video call with me, my mind went to, again, the worst-case scenario. It just does. It just does. I think that that is actually really, really normal. I really do. I think that is what happens naturally for anybody. First of all, I don't want to even go too over in terms of pathologizing that. I think that's a normal thing for anybody to experience. The first thing I want you to practice is validating your anxiety. It's a part of self-compassion practice. It's going, "It makes complete sense, Kimberley, that this is concerning you." That's one of the most important self-compassionate statements you could make for yourself. "It makes complete sense that this is hard, this is scary. Of course, it's making you uncomfortable." It's validating. You might even move to a common humanity, going, "Anybody in this situation would have anxiety." Then you can also move into mindfulness skills, which is—this was one that I hold very true—just because I feel anxious doesn't mean there's danger or there's a catastrophe. It's my body's natural response to create anxiety when it feels threatened. That keeps me alive. That's a good t…
Full show notes at the publisher5 TIPS FOR HEALTH ANXIETY DURING A DRS VISIT If you want my five tips for health anxiety during a Drs visit, especially if you have a medical condition that concerns you, this is the episode for you. Hello and welcome back everybody. Today, I'm going to share some updates about a recent medical issue I have had, and I'm going to share specific tips for dealing with health anxiety (also known as hypochondria). A lot of you who have been here with me before know I have postural orthostatic tachycardic syndrome. I also have a lesion on my left cerebellum and many other ups and downs in my medical history where I've had to get really good at managing my health anxiety. I wanted to share with you some real-time tips that I am practicing as I deal with another medical illness or another medical concern that I wanted to share with you. Here I'm going to share with you five specific tips, but I think in total, there's 20-something tips all woven in here. I've done my best to put them into just five. But do make sure you listen to the end of the podcast episode because I'm also going to give some health anxiety journal prompts or questions that you can ask yourself so that you can know how to deal with health anxiety if you're experiencing that at this time. Before we get into it, let me give you a little bit of a backstory. Several months ago, I did share that I've been having these what I call surges. They're like adrenaline surges. They wake me up. My heart isn't racing. It's not like it's racing fast, but the only way I can explain it is I feel like I have like a racehorse's heart in my chest, like this huge heart that's beating really heavily. Of course, that creates anxiety. And so then I would question like, is it the heartbeat or is it just my anxiety? You go back and you go forward trying to figure out which is which. But because this was a symptom that was persisting and was also showing up when I wasn't experiencing a lot of stress or anxiety, I thought the right thing to do is to go and see the doctor. WHAT HEALTH ANXIETY FEELS LIKE Before we get started, be sure to make sure you're not avoiding doctors. Make sure you're not dismissing symptoms. We do have to find a very, very wise balance between avoiding doctors but also not overdoing it with doctors. We'll talk about that a little bit here in a minute. But first, I wanted to just share with you what health anxiety feels like for me. Because for me, I'm very, very skilled at identifying what is anxiety and what is not. I've become very good at catching that by experience, folks. It's not something that comes naturally, but by experience, I can identify what is health anxiety and what is a real medical condition or what is something worthy of me getting checked out. For me, for the health anxiety piece, it's really this sort of anxiety that is a sense of catastrophization and it's usually in the form of thoughts like, what if this is cancer? What if this is a stroke? All the worst-case scenarios. What if this is life-threatening? What if I miss this and you are responsible, you should have picked it up. These are very common health anxiety intrusive thoughts or health anxiety thoughts that I think you really need to be able to catch and be aware and mindful of. First of all, that is the biggest symptom for me. The other thing is when you have health anxiety, you do tend to hyper-fixate on the symptom and all of the surrounding symptoms that are going with that. And then you can really catastrophize those like, "Well, my heart's beating really heavily and I feel dizzy. Oh my gosh. And I've been having a headache. Yeah, you're right, I've been having a headache. Oh my gosh." I call it 'gathering.' That's not an actual clinical term, but I do use it with my clients. We gather data that is catastrophic to make it seem like, yeah, we actually have a really big point, and this is actually a catastrophe. Some other health anxiety symptom that I experience is panic. When you notice a symptom, it is very common to start panicking. And then again, you go back to this chicken or the egg or is it the horse or the carriage in terms of I'm panicking, and now the panic has all these symptoms. Are these symptoms an actual medical condition or are they actually just anxiety and panic? You could spend a lot of time stuck in that cycle trying to figure that out. Let's now talk about how to manage these symptoms and some tips and tools that you can use. Tip #1: No Googling Let me tell you what has recently happened to me. I've been having these symptoms. I made an appointment to see my cardiologist. It was two months out and I was like, "It's not a big deal. I can handle these symptoms." I'm feeling super confident about my ability now to just ride out some pretty uncomfortable sensations and not catastrophize. I go in for my checkup, they do an echocardiogram, and it's taking a long time. She's asking me these strange questions like, "Why are you here again," as she's doing it. She's checking, she's looking, she's squinting at the screen. "Why are you here again? What are your symptoms?" Click, click, click, looking at the heart, whatever. Again, I'm in my mind going, "Kimberley, let your brain have whatever thoughts it wants. We're not going to catastrophize." I was doing really, really well. I got up and I answered her questions. I did the whole appointment. She cleaned me off when I was done and said, "Great, you've got 24 hours and then the doctor will email you with your results." And then yesterday afternoon, I get a call from the nurse saying, "We need to book you a video appointment with the doctor to discuss your results." As you can imagine, my brain went berserk. My health anxiety thoughts were saying, "This is really bad. Why would he need to make a video appointment? This can only end badly. This must be cancer. This must be heart problems. Am I going to have a heart attack and so forth?" Of course, my brain did that. I'm grateful my brain does that because that's my brain being highly functioning and aware. But the number one rule I made with myself in that exact moment, even though that was very anxiety-producing, is no Googling. Kimberley, you are not allowed to pick up the computer or the iPhone and Google anything about this. That is tip #1 for you. I'll tell you why. A lot of my patients say, "But why? It's no harm. I'm not doing any harm." And I'll say, "Yes." I've actually just seen my cardiologist. But now that I've had my appointment, he encouraged me to do a little research. What was hilarious to me is every single website is different and some catastrophize and some don't. Some go, "This could be very normal." Other ones say, "This could be cancer, cancer, cancer, cancer." This is why I'm telling my patients all the time, don't Google because what you read is different. It's not like this is going to be a factual thing. Most of the time people who have articles that rank high on Google searches are the ones who have optimized their website to be very easy to Google. The reason they have become number one on the Google algorithm is because they've included keywords like cancer for blah, blah, blah, and all of these health issues and health names. The ones that are at the top, some of them are very reasonable, helpful, and accurate, but a lot of them are not. They've just really done a great job of putting in lots and lots of keywords that makes them highly searchable and come up high on the algorithm. Please, number one, do not Google. Go to your doctor for questions if you have any. Unless they've encouraged you to do research, do not Google. TIP #2: FOLLOW IMPORTANT HEALTH ANXIETY CBT TECHNIQUES I've actually categorized this in a bigger category and I've called it important health anxiety CBT techniques, because there are some important CBT tools that you're going to need here and here we go. While I was in getting my echocardiogram, I was laying and I was having some anxiety because she was squinting and asking some strange questions, not in the normal of what I'd experienced. I could feel the pull to check her face for reassurance like, does she look concerned? Does she look relaxed? What's going on with her? I wonder what she meant. What I want to encourage you to do is acknowledge and catch when you're checking their face to try to decipher what the nurse or the assistant or the doctor is doing and saying. Because really, all I'm doing there is mind reading because I have no idea what she's thinking. I was laughing at myself because she was squinting and looking concerned. I was like, "I wonder if she's trying not to pass gas." We could mind read that she thinks I have cancer and that there's a big problem, or maybe she's just trying not to pass gas right now. Maybe she's thinking about a fight she just had with her partner. My attempt to analyze her facial expression is a complete waste of my time. You could use that tip anytime you want. The next tip for you is no reassurance seeking with nurses or doctors. Now, I actually felt almost into this trap. If I'm being completely honest, I did fall into this trap, but I caught myself really quickly. As she was finishing up, she took off her gloves and got ready to discharge me, and I said, "So, you'd let me know if there was..." I paused because what I was going to say is, "You'll let me know if there's something wrong, right?" I was going to say that. And then I was like, "No, no, no." I stopped myself and said, "You know what? I know the deal. I've done these enough times. I know I have to wait for the doctor." But I caught myself wanting to get confirmation from the nurse and I already know that nurses are not allowed to give me any diagnosis anyway. I caught myself wanting to get some expression of relief from her like, "No, you're fine. Everything looks good," or whatever. Sometimes they accidentally give you that reassurance. But I caught myself seeking reassurance from her. In addition to that—let me talk to you a little later about how we do that with doctors as well—often if you're in the office with a doctor, you may find yourself at the end of the session going, "I'll be fine, right? It's not bad, right?" It's okay, we're all going to ask some of those questions. I'm not going to be the reassurance-seeking police with you. But what I want you to do is really drop down into catching when we're engaging in reassurance seeking and using it too much to reduce our own anxiety about it, to take away our own anxiety or fear. Now, another CBT technique or sort of rule that we often set in clinical work when I'm talking with my clients who have health anxiety is also not swaying the doctor or the nurse to answer things in the way that you want. A lot of people fall into this trap. For me, I just had my doctor's appointment. We are working through and there are some little problems that we will work out. But I caught myself there wanting to sway him to be very positive. We had talked about it ultimately. He had said, "There are some issues. It could be this, it could be that, it could be this." He listed off three or four options. Some were very, very small, and of course, the third one is always like, it could be cancer. They always say at the end, like whatever. When they give you these three or four or five options on what the problem might be, it's very important that you be mindful and aware of how you're trying to sway the doctor to give you certainty. This is what my doctor said, and I'm going to be brief. I'm not going to bore you with my medical stuff, but he'll say, "It could be that you recently had COVID or an illness or a virus. It could also be this other condition, which is common, and if it's so, we'll treat that. It could also be that there could be some rheumatoid arthritis and that's a longer treatment. And then the final thing, which we don't think so, but it also could be cancer. "Let's say he lists off these four options. Now, this is very common. Doctors will do this often because their job is to educate us on all of the possibilities so that we can create a treatment plan that doesn't ignore big issues, but we have to be careful that we don't spend their time and our time going, "You think it's the first one, right? It's probably just the first one. I probably just had a virus, right?" I'm really swaying him towards giving an answer when he's already told us that he or she doesn't know yet. He's already said, "I don't know yet. We're going to need to do extra tests." Catch yourself trying to get them to reassure you and confirm that it's definitely not the C word. The cancer word is what I'm saying there. Catch yourself when you're doing those behaviors in the office with either the nurses or the technician or the doctors. Very, very important. Now, one other thing I want you to also catch is if you're coming to them with something, let's say you are coming to them with a concern that you've pretty much know is your health anxiety, but you want reassurance that it's not, also be careful that you don't overly list things to convince them that something is wrong. A lot of you don't do this, I know, but I have had a lot of clients who've come back to me after seeing the doctor and said, "Do you have any other symptoms," and they would list even minor symptoms that they had a month ago that they knew had nothing to do with it. But they felt like if they didn't say it all, if they didn't include every symptom, every stomach ache, every headache, everything, they could miss something. So also keep an eye out for that. That's some sort of overall general CBT techniques we use for health anxiety that help guide people into not engaging in those health anxiety compulsions. TIP #3: HEALTH ANXIETY HELP DURING YOUR DOCTOR'S VISIT This is a really important part of it. From the minute that I got the call from the nurse that he wanted a video call with me, my mind went to, again, the worst-case scenario. It just does. It just does. I think that that is actually really, really normal. I really do. I think that is what happens naturally for anybody. First of all, I don't want to even go too over in terms of pathologizing that. I think that's a normal thing for anybody to experience. The first thing I want you to practice is validating your anxiety. It's a part of self-compassion practice. It's going, "It makes complete sense, Kimberley, that this is concerning you." That's one of the most important self-compassionate statements you could make for yourself. "It makes complete sense that this is hard, this is scary. Of course, it's making you uncomfortable." It's validating. You might even move to a common humanity, going, "Anybody in this situation would have anxiety." Then you can also move into mindfulness skills, which is—this was one that I hold very true—just because I feel anxious doesn't mean there's danger or there's a catastrophe. It's my body's natural response to create anxiety when it feels threatened. That keeps me alive. That's a good t…
Full show notes at the publisher5 TIPS FOR HEALTH ANXIETY DURING A DRS VISIT If you want my five tips for health anxiety during a Drs visit, especially if you have a medical condition that concerns you, this is the episode for you. Hello and welcome back everybody. Today, I'm going to share some updates about a recent medical issue I have had, and I'm going to share specific tips for dealing with health anxiety (also known as hypochondria). A lot of you who have been here with me before know I have postural orthostatic tachycardic syndrome. I also have a lesion on my left cerebellum and many other ups and downs in my medical history where I've had to get really good at managing my health anxiety. I wanted to share with you some real-time tips that I am practicing as I deal with another medical illness or another medical concern that I wanted to share with you. Here I'm going to share with you five specific tips, but I think in total, there's 20-something tips all woven in here. I've done my best to put them into just five. But do make sure you listen to the end of the podcast episode because I'm also going to give some health anxiety journal prompts or questions that you can ask yourself so that you can know how to deal with health anxiety if you're experiencing that at this time. Before we get into it, let me give you a little bit of a backstory. Several months ago, I did share that I've been having these what I call surges. They're like adrenaline surges. They wake me up. My heart isn't racing. It's not like it's racing fast, but the only way I can explain it is I feel like I have like a racehorse's heart in my chest, like this huge heart that's beating really heavily. Of course, that creates anxiety. And so then I would question like, is it the heartbeat or is it just my anxiety? You go back and you go forward trying to figure out which is which. But because this was a symptom that was persisting and was also showing up when I wasn't experiencing a lot of stress or anxiety, I thought the right thing to do is to go and see the doctor. WHAT HEALTH ANXIETY FEELS LIKE Before we get started, be sure to make sure you're not avoiding doctors. Make sure you're not dismissing symptoms. We do have to find a very, very wise balance between avoiding doctors but also not overdoing it with doctors. We'll talk about that a little bit here in a minute. But first, I wanted to just share with you what health anxiety feels like for me. Because for me, I'm very, very skilled at identifying what is anxiety and what is not. I've become very good at catching that by experience, folks. It's not something that comes naturally, but by experience, I can identify what is health anxiety and what is a real medical condition or what is something worthy of me getting checked out. For me, for the health anxiety piece, it's really this sort of anxiety that is a sense of catastrophization and it's usually in the form of thoughts like, what if this is cancer? What if this is a stroke? All the worst-case scenarios. What if this is life-threatening? What if I miss this and you are responsible, you should have picked it up. These are very common health anxiety intrusive thoughts or health anxiety thoughts that I think you really need to be able to catch and be aware and mindful of. First of all, that is the biggest symptom for me. The other thing is when you have health anxiety, you do tend to hyper-fixate on the symptom and all of the surrounding symptoms that are going with that. And then you can really catastrophize those like, "Well, my heart's beating really heavily and I feel dizzy. Oh my gosh. And I've been having a headache. Yeah, you're right, I've been having a headache. Oh my gosh." I call it 'gathering.' That's not an actual clinical term, but I do use it with my clients. We gather data that is catastrophic to make it seem like, yeah, we actually have a really big point, and this is actually a catastrophe. Some other health anxiety symptom that I experience is panic. When you notice a symptom, it is very common to start panicking. And then again, you go back to this chicken or the egg or is it the horse or the carriage in terms of I'm panicking, and now the panic has all these symptoms. Are these symptoms an actual medical condition or are they actually just anxiety and panic? You could spend a lot of time stuck in that cycle trying to figure that out. Let's now talk about how to manage these symptoms and some tips and tools that you can use. Tip #1: No Googling Let me tell you what has recently happened to me. I've been having these symptoms. I made an appointment to see my cardiologist. It was two months out and I was like, "It's not a big deal. I can handle these symptoms." I'm feeling super confident about my ability now to just ride out some pretty uncomfortable sensations and not catastrophize. I go in for my checkup, they do an echocardiogram, and it's taking a long time. She's asking me these strange questions like, "Why are you here again," as she's doing it. She's checking, she's looking, she's squinting at the screen. "Why are you here again? What are your symptoms?" Click, click, click, looking at the heart, whatever. Again, I'm in my mind going, "Kimberley, let your brain have whatever thoughts it wants. We're not going to catastrophize." I was doing really, really well. I got up and I answered her questions. I did the whole appointment. She cleaned me off when I was done and said, "Great, you've got 24 hours and then the doctor will email you with your results." And then yesterday afternoon, I get a call from the nurse saying, "We need to book you a video appointment with the doctor to discuss your results." As you can imagine, my brain went berserk. My health anxiety thoughts were saying, "This is really bad. Why would he need to make a video appointment? This can only end badly. This must be cancer. This must be heart problems. Am I going to have a heart attack and so forth?" Of course, my brain did that. I'm grateful my brain does that because that's my brain being highly functioning and aware. But the number one rule I made with myself in that exact moment, even though that was very anxiety-producing, is no Googling. Kimberley, you are not allowed to pick up the computer or the iPhone and Google anything about this. That is tip #1 for you. I'll tell you why. A lot of my patients say, "But why? It's no harm. I'm not doing any harm." And I'll say, "Yes." I've actually just seen my cardiologist. But now that I've had my appointment, he encouraged me to do a little research. What was hilarious to me is every single website is different and some catastrophize and some don't. Some go, "This could be very normal." Other ones say, "This could be cancer, cancer, cancer, cancer." This is why I'm telling my patients all the time, don't Google because what you read is different. It's not like this is going to be a factual thing. Most of the time people who have articles that rank high on Google searches are the ones who have optimized their website to be very easy to Google. The reason they have become number one on the Google algorithm is because they've included keywords like cancer for blah, blah, blah, and all of these health issues and health names. The ones that are at the top, some of them are very reasonable, helpful, and accurate, but a lot of them are not. They've just really done a great job of putting in lots and lots of keywords that makes them highly searchable and come up high on the algorithm. Please, number one, do not Google. Go to your doctor for questions if you have any. Unless they've encouraged you to do research, do not Google. TIP #2: FOLLOW IMPORTANT HEALTH ANXIETY CBT TECHNIQUES I've actually categorized this in a bigger category and I've called it important health anxiety CBT techniques, because there are some important CBT tools that you're going to need here and here we go. While I was in getting my echocardiogram, I was laying and I was having some anxiety because she was squinting and asking some strange questions, not in the normal of what I'd experienced. I could feel the pull to check her face for reassurance like, does she look concerned? Does she look relaxed? What's going on with her? I wonder what she meant. What I want to encourage you to do is acknowledge and catch when you're checking their face to try to decipher what the nurse or the assistant or the doctor is doing and saying. Because really, all I'm doing there is mind reading because I have no idea what she's thinking. I was laughing at myself because she was squinting and looking concerned. I was like, "I wonder if she's trying not to pass gas." We could mind read that she thinks I have cancer and that there's a big problem, or maybe she's just trying not to pass gas right now. Maybe she's thinking about a fight she just had with her partner. My attempt to analyze her facial expression is a complete waste of my time. You could use that tip anytime you want. The next tip for you is no reassurance seeking with nurses or doctors. Now, I actually felt almost into this trap. If I'm being completely honest, I did fall into this trap, but I caught myself really quickly. As she was finishing up, she took off her gloves and got ready to discharge me, and I said, "So, you'd let me know if there was..." I paused because what I was going to say is, "You'll let me know if there's something wrong, right?" I was going to say that. And then I was like, "No, no, no." I stopped myself and said, "You know what? I know the deal. I've done these enough times. I know I have to wait for the doctor." But I caught myself wanting to get confirmation from the nurse and I already know that nurses are not allowed to give me any diagnosis anyway. I caught myself wanting to get some expression of relief from her like, "No, you're fine. Everything looks good," or whatever. Sometimes they accidentally give you that reassurance. But I caught myself seeking reassurance from her. In addition to that—let me talk to you a little later about how we do that with doctors as well—often if you're in the office with a doctor, you may find yourself at the end of the session going, "I'll be fine, right? It's not bad, right?" It's okay, we're all going to ask some of those questions. I'm not going to be the reassurance-seeking police with you. But what I want you to do is really drop down into catching when we're engaging in reassurance seeking and using it too much to reduce our own anxiety about it, to take away our own anxiety or fear. Now, another CBT technique or sort of rule that we often set in clinical work when I'm talking with my clients who have health anxiety is also not swaying the doctor or the nurse to answer things in the way that you want. A lot of people fall into this trap. For me, I just had my doctor's appointment. We are working through and there are some little problems that we will work out. But I caught myself there wanting to sway him to be very positive. We had talked about it ultimately. He had said, "There are some issues. It could be this, it could be that, it could be this." He listed off three or four options. Some were very, very small, and of course, the third one is always like, it could be cancer. They always say at the end, like whatever. When they give you these three or four or five options on what the problem might be, it's very important that you be mindful and aware of how you're trying to sway the doctor to give you certainty. This is what my doctor said, and I'm going to be brief. I'm not going to bore you with my medical stuff, but he'll say, "It could be that you recently had COVID or an illness or a virus. It could also be this other condition, which is common, and if it's so, we'll treat that. It could also be that there could be some rheumatoid arthritis and that's a longer treatment. And then the final thing, which we don't think so, but it also could be cancer. "Let's say he lists off these four options. Now, this is very common. Doctors will do this often because their job is to educate us on all of the possibilities so that we can create a treatment plan that doesn't ignore big issues, but we have to be careful that we don't spend their time and our time going, "You think it's the first one, right? It's probably just the first one. I probably just had a virus, right?" I'm really swaying him towards giving an answer when he's already told us that he or she doesn't know yet. He's already said, "I don't know yet. We're going to need to do extra tests." Catch yourself trying to get them to reassure you and confirm that it's definitely not the C word. The cancer word is what I'm saying there. Catch yourself when you're doing those behaviors in the office with either the nurses or the technician or the doctors. Very, very important. Now, one other thing I want you to also catch is if you're coming to them with something, let's say you are coming to them with a concern that you've pretty much know is your health anxiety, but you want reassurance that it's not, also be careful that you don't overly list things to convince them that something is wrong. A lot of you don't do this, I know, but I have had a lot of clients who've come back to me after seeing the doctor and said, "Do you have any other symptoms," and they would list even minor symptoms that they had a month ago that they knew had nothing to do with it. But they felt like if they didn't say it all, if they didn't include every symptom, every stomach ache, every headache, everything, they could miss something. So also keep an eye out for that. That's some sort of overall general CBT techniques we use for health anxiety that help guide people into not engaging in those health anxiety compulsions. TIP #3: HEALTH ANXIETY HELP DURING YOUR DOCTOR'S VISIT This is a really important part of it. From the minute that I got the call from the nurse that he wanted a video call with me, my mind went to, again, the worst-case scenario. It just does. It just does. I think that that is actually really, really normal. I really do. I think that is what happens naturally for anybody. First of all, I don't want to even go too over in terms of pathologizing that. I think that's a normal thing for anybody to experience. The first thing I want you to practice is validating your anxiety. It's a part of self-compassion practice. It's going, "It makes complete sense, Kimberley, that this is concerning you." That's one of the most important self-compassionate statements you could make for yourself. "It makes complete sense that this is hard, this is scary. Of course, it's making you uncomfortable." It's validating. You might even move to a common humanity, going, "Anybody in this situation would have anxiety." Then you can also move into mindfulness skills, which is—this was one that I hold very true—just because I feel anxious doesn't mean there's danger or there's a catastrophe. It's my body's natural response to create anxiety when it feels threatened. That keeps me alive. That's a good t…
Full show notes at the publisherToday, we're talking about the Top 5 Relationship Rules I have that have changed my life. This episode was inspired by a letter I wrote to all of you. For those of you who signed up for my newsletter, I give you tools and tips, and stories, and I tell you funny jokes sometimes. But I was writing the newsletter while I was in Australia just before I left when I was there in December, and I was reflecting on how beautiful my relationships are with my family now. And I was reflecting on why. Why are they so beautiful? Well, number one, they're beautiful people. But number two, more importantly, I have learned these relationship rules, which have allowed me to have the most beautiful relationship with my family and the most beautiful relationship with my husband, my kids, my friends, and you guys.
Now, that doesn't mean there are no bumps. That doesn't mean there are no arguments. A few weeks ago, I wrote in the newsletter about how I had an argument with my husband. Of course, I was joking about how wrong he was and how right I was. But it doesn't mean we don't have conflict, but we get to coexist because of these relationship rules, and I want to share them with you.
Before we proceed, I want to say, these mightn't work for you. I think they work well, but I don't want you to feel guilty, ashamed, embarrassed, angry, or whatever the feelings are if you feel like these don't match you. So take what you need here. Leave what isn't helpful for you; if it's useful for you, wonderful. If it doesn't sit right, one of them doesn't sit right, that is not a problem. It's totally okay to use what helps you. When I'm talking on this podcast, I'm giving you ideas, so be curious and consider them, but it doesn't mean that I'm always right, I think I'm right, or I know what's right for you.
All right, here we go. I'm going to go through them quickly and then elaborate a little later once we get through, okay? But I want to remind you that these relationship rules help me stay solid in my relationships, and they've gotten me through some of the hardest periods and seasons of my life. So, let's see if they're helpful for you.
1. It is not your job or my job to manage our family's emotions.Their emotions are their responsibility, and it is their job to regulate their emotions when they're upset with us. And it's our job to regulate and manage our emotions when we are upset. Now, what does regulate mean? It means you're allowed to have them. We're not saying that no one's allowed to be upset, but we have to communicate and share with them and regulate by not throwing things, lashing out, saying unkind things, saying things that aren't true, saying 'you' statements like, "You're so blah, blah, blah." We want to use 'I' statements like, "I feel this way about that," or "I would like this thing to happen." So, we want to regulate as best as we can. Our job is to regulate what shows up for us, and their job is to regulate what shows up for them.
2. It is not your job to please the people you are in relationship with.Now, they get to have expectations and they get to communicate with you on what their expectations are, and you get to have expectations and you get to communicate their expectations. Now, this is so important, then we can have a respectful conversation. A lot of the time these days, I see people in relationships or even online where somebody disagrees and they're so hurt. They're like, "You've harmed me by saying that. I'm so hurt by what you said." But the person gets to have their thoughts and their feelings. It's not our job to manage it, and it's not our job to please them either. So you get to have your beliefs and thoughts and ideas, and you get to disagree with other people as well. It's as long as we're able to do it respectfully. And when I say respectful, I'm not saying it in a people-pleasing way either. It is not our job to please people. It's just not.
Here's a deeper one. Let me just jump into this a little: I'm still working on this and I get therapy. I have a lot of practice and I've read about the idea of my happiness. That's my job. My happiness is my job. And I easily get caught up in, "No, if my partner would just do A, B, and C, then I can be happy," or "If my kids just do A, B, and C, then I can be happy." And that is true to a degree. But the problem with that rule, if you want to keep that rule, is you have no empowerment and no responsibility. It's all up to them. Your life is in their hands. Your happiness is in their hands.
And so, I like to think about, yeah, people can't always please me, like I just said, and people are going to upset me. And then it's my job to decide what I want to do with that, and it's my job to determine how I'm going to cope today with the fact that they may not be living up to the way I want them to. So that's really important.
3. They are allowed to have their feelings about our choices.This is a big one for my husband and I. We say this to each other all the time. It's like, "You're allowed to have your feelings about that and so am I." This one is so hard for me, especially in my marriage because if I upset him, I'd be like, "You shouldn't be upset." And he's like, "I'm allowed to be upset. I'm allowed to have my feelings about it." And I'm like, "No, but you shouldn't." And he's like, "Yeah, but I am. I do."
It is okay if they don't like everything about us and if they disagree. It is our job to live according to our values, which doesn't always align with their expectations of us. Our job is to go and live our lives and let them have their feelings about it. Then, we can communicate respectfully about our misalignment. "But that has been so beautiful for me." To say, "You're allowed to have your feelings about me, specifically me as a public person." When I used to speak at a conference, or online or on Instagram, and someone would say something negative, I used to be like, "Oh, how dare they say something so mean? How could they disagree with me or not like me?" It was so painful because I had made this rule that they should only have good feelings about me.
And now I'm okay. You can have all your feelings about me. You might like me, or you might hate me. You might like me one day and not like me the next. You might agree or not agree, and you get to have your feelings about me. I give you permission. It is so freeing to say, "I'm going to let everyone have permission to have their feelings about me." That's okay. I'm not for everyone. That sentence literally has healed me on the deepest level, probably more than any sentence. You're allowed to have your feelings about me. So important.
4. It is okay if they struggle to understand us.In fact, I encourage you to accept that they will not always understand us. Sometimes people won't have the capacity to understand us, and that doesn't make us wrong. And it also doesn't mean that you won't be able to find a way to coexist and still love each other unconditionally. That's so true.
I always tell my patients, let's say I come in and I'm wearing my favorite boots, which are a bit sassy, and you come in, and you're like, "I hate your boots. They're the ugliest boots ever." I could even say, "Ah, you're supposed to love my boots." Or I could say, "That's cool. You don't have to love my boots. You get to have your feelings about them. And it's okay if you don't understand how rocking my boots are."
Now, this also goes for who you are. They get to have their feelings about who you are. They get to not like who we are, as long as they're respectful, they don't cross any boundaries, and they're not abusive. They get to be upset, and it's okay that they don't understand us. As I said, some people can't understand us. So important.
5. You get to (and they get to) change their mind or change, period.Again, this one was so hard for me. Now, for those of you who don't know me, I've been married almost 20 years. It will be 20 years this year, which means my husband's done a ton of changing, and so have my family, my friends, and so have you guys. There's a lot of change. But they get to change. If somebody changes, we can't go, "Wait, that's not fair. I didn't go into this relationship with you being this new version of you. You have to be the old version of you." That's not a real relationship. That's saying you must stay the same and can't express and be who you are.
We could say, "You've changed, and these are my feelings about it," as long as I'm doing it, not in a judgmental way or not in a way that's trying to change them back because people get to change. They get to change their mind. So that's another big one for me, is if someone says, "I like this," and then they come back and say, "I actually really don't," I have to remind myself they're allowed to change their mind because they're allowed to have their feelings. And it's okay that they don't understand us, and they're going to manage their own emotions, and I'm going to manage mine.
We can't hold ourselves to the expectation that will never change. As we go through different seasons in our life, we will change. And that might feel scary. But we can try using our mindfulness skills and our regulation skills to navigate the change and the emotions you have to feel.
So those are the five relationship rules that have changed my life. Now, here's the kicker. None of it is fun. None of it. This is some hard work. I nearly said that S word, which is fine. I'm allowed to swear, but it's some hard shit. This is some terrible stuff to work through, but with it comes stronger and more unconditionally loving relationships.
When I gave my husband permission to have his feelings about me, he was happier, and he loved me more because it meant that he didn't have to pretend to be somebody else or he didn't have to pretend to like something and get resentful because he actually didn't like it. When I allowed myself to be different from my family, and I accepted that they might have feelings about that, and I gave them permission to have feelings about that, there wasn't a problem anymore.
The biggest problem, the biggest pain, the most suffering came when I was like, "No, they shouldn't feel this way about me. That's not fair"! But, it is fair. They get to have their feelings based on their own personal and their upbringing and their own incapacities and their own limitations. They get to have their feelings. It mightn't be perfect, but I'm not perfect.
You guys, I could add a fifth or sixth one here. I didn't write this one in the email, but I'm not perfect, and neither are they, and that's okay. Sometimes I would say, "No, but they need to be this way because that's the right way. This is the right way to be." And I get it. Yeah, there is sometimes real right and wrong, like you shouldn't harm people or say horrible things or critical things or racist things or misogynist things. We get that, and I agree with all that. But at the end of the day, the people in our lives will be imperfect, and we have to get better about not being black and white and cutting them off because they did a "bad" thing.
I think cancel culture has taught us a lot in this idea of like, "You're dead to me. You're done. You're canceled." Relationships don't work like that. We're human beings. We make mistakes. I've made a million mistakes. I've actually-- okay, now I'm going on and on. But we also have to learn to accept that we make mistakes and be willing to apologize for it. It's a humble thing to do. It's not fun, not fun at all, but we can also say we're sorry too.
So that's it, you guys. There's a humbling; there's a humanity that we connect with when we can allow everyone to have their feelings, when we can allow ourselves to have our feelings when we can have limits and boundaries and clearly communicate that with our loved ones, but then also understand that sometimes they may not get it.
Now there will be situations if you say, "I don't like that," and they will not respect you. You may need to make a limit and a boundary with them where they don't have as much access to you. That's 100% valid. And again, I'm not here telling you to accept other people's bad behavior. Absolutely not. But we can accept that they have some feelings about it, as long as they're communicating respectfully, kindly, compassionately, or at least they're trying. At least they're trying.
So that's it, folks. The five relationship rules that have literally changed my life and my relationships. I hope it's helpful. It is a beautiful day to do hard things, and I will see you next week.
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