What The Hell Is Michael Jamin Talking About?

Latest Episodes:

100 - Writer/Actor/Executive Producer Steve Lemme Sep 27, 2023

Show notes

This week, for the 100th episode we have Writer/Actor/Executive Producer Steve Lemme (Super Troopers, Beer Fest, Tacoma FD and many many more) talk about his early career, his on-going collaboration with Kevin Heffernan and doing stand up.Show NotesSteve Lemme on IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0501399/Steve Lemme on Twitter: https://twitter.com/SteveLemmeSteve Lemme on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/steve_lemme/Free Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlistAutogenerated TranscriptSteve Lemme:Some guys were psyched that I had gotten it out there and the studio was psyched because fucking, it was massive. It was a massive announcement that got all those views. And so it was like, then the guys that were kind of mad about it were like, but don't feel like you did the right thing here. What you did was wrong. I was like, I know what I did was wrong. I'll never do it again. They're like, so don't feel justified. I'm like, I know, but then guys are looking at each other. But it is pretty fucking sweet and I definitely did the wrong thing and I would not advise that to anybody.Michael Jamin:You're listening to Screenwriters need to hear this with Michael lemin.Hey everyone. Welcome back to another episode of Screenwriters. Need to Hear this. I'm Michael and this is episode 100 of this podcast. And as an honor, I thought I would bestow this great honor onto the man. Yes. Yeah, I'm giving you the honor. It's an honor for you Lemme onto the man who's kept me employed for the past four years or more. Ladies and gentlemen, if you're listening to the podcast in your car, please pull over and give a warm round of applause to Mr. Steven Lemme. Lemme.Lemme tell people who you are, just by the way, this is the in case they don't know. So Lemme, as we call him, is the star and exec creator and executive producer showrunner of the show. I'm currently running on Tacoma fd, but you may know him. He's got a long track record of indie movies. We're going to talk about how he got these old made, including Super Troopers, bottle Cruiser Club, dread Beer Fest, lamb and Salmon, a bunch of stuff, including the latest one is quasi. I know I'm skipping over your complete filmography, but I want to give you a chance to talk. Let me thank you for being on my show here.Steve Lemme:I feel like you could just go on forever talking about me.Michael Jamin:Yeah, that would be the ideal Pat podcast for you. Just tell me more about me.Steve Lemme:I would prefer that. I would prefer that.Michael Jamin:Why? Is that? Because you're tired of telling your story over and over?Steve Lemme:No, I don't really get tired speaking about myself, but what I get less tired of is like I've gone and done some publicity lately. For instance, I did watch What Happens Live with Andy Cohen. Do you know what that show is?Michael Jamin:No, I didn't know that. Where is that?Steve Lemme:It's on the Bravo Channel. All those shows.Michael Jamin:All the shows you don't watch. Yeah. Yeah.Steve Lemme:I watch them. I watch because,Michael Jamin:Because your wife watches them.Steve Lemme:Well, that's exactly how a lot of people get sucked into it. It's because somebody else is watching and you walk through the room and you're like, what stupid show are you watching? I started watching, it was Real Housewives of New Jersey, and I walked through, I was like, who are these fucking people? And my wife was like, it's Real Housewives of New Jersey. They're just, last week, this chick right here flipped up a table and called this other one a prostitution whore. And then they actually showed it on the tv. They replayed what happened last week in a flashback. I was like, wait a second, hold on. And I sat down and I was like, hold on a second. Hold on a second. What happened? Why would she flip up a table? What's wrong with her? And she's like, well, that's the thing she's on. And there was born another fan of these shows. And then you try to resist.Michael Jamin:But wait, I want to know, you got to answer the question though. Why is it you didn't want to talk about yourself in the beginning? I asked you, is it because you do so much publicity?Steve Lemme:I got off track, I got off track, but it's not that I don't want to talk about myself becauseMichael Jamin:I think it must get hard answering the same thing over andSteve Lemme:Over again again. Well, sometimes I fascinate myself, Michael, and so I find great comfort in hearing myself speak while I'm saying it. I'm like, oh, this is nice. What I'm saying right now is good. And I'm enjoying my own company. I'm a big believer in actually my way into the arts was my mom saying, because I didn't have a lot of money growing up. And actually that's actually, it's mostly true, but it's more that my mom was a teacher at a really wealthy private school. And so whatever is the reality or not, and I suspect it actually is real. I didn't have much money growing up. It felt less to maybe I was hanging out with people that had, it's like the kind where after Christmas, or you go to their house before Christmas and there's a million presents under the tree.Michael Jamin:Yeah, that's right. AndSteve Lemme:You're like, Jesus, I've got two. And even that's better than a lot of people. That's why I hesitate to complain about it and put myself in that place. But when I was a kid, I would complain about not having toys and my mom would hand me paper and crayons and pencil and pen and scissors and scotch tape and say, make something, entertain yourself. And she would say, if you can't have fun with yourself, you'll never be happy. And so, by the way, am I allowed to be dirty on this podcast?Michael Jamin:You can say whatever you want to say.Steve Lemme:I was about to make a masturbation joke, which I know youMichael Jamin:Would like. I was already there.Steve Lemme:But anyway, my point is, so now that's totally off the market.Michael Jamin:You're saying this. This is your introduction to the arts,Steve Lemme:Right? So anyway, oh, I was saying I enjoy spending time with myself, the arts, but the point is I went on Andy Cohen, watch What Happens Live. And this has happened so many times where the intro, the way they introduce you is dog shit. And he didn't mention the movies, he didn't mention Broken Lizard. He just said he's on a new TV series on Hulu called QuasiMichael Jamin:Thanks for getting everything wrong,Steve Lemme:Which was not true either. And then it's like, look, I'm aware that a lot of, there is a younger generation of people who aren't familiar with Broken Lizard or those movies or Super Troopers or Beer Fest or anything like that, or they haven't watched it, but there are fans there. And also a lot of times if I don't know my mustache, people won't recognize me, but if they say it, if you get a nice intro, at least it gives you some credibility. But in this case, I was some jackass at the bar, the celebrity bartender. And so anyway, I like a good intro. I like to get stroked.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Did I stroke you enough when I brought you on?Steve Lemme:You did. You did. But I could have listened to more. YouMichael Jamin:Could to the thing about you, and I've said this before and I'll say it publicly, there are one of the great joys of working with you is that you are an open book when you talk about stories from your past and you're brutally honest. And the best comedians that I've worked with are the same way. Mark Merrim is the same way. He'd say things in the room, you'd be like, whoa, I can't believe you're telling me this. And you're the same way. So it makes it so much easier to write for you because you're just being vulnerable and you're sharing yourself and there's no judgment there. It's just funny.Steve Lemme:Thank you for saying that. I know that about myself. Kevin will say, I have no filter. That's what he will say, but I'll tell him he's too filtered.Michael Jamin:Right?Steve Lemme:I'll say, Kevin, you need to open up a little bit and share of yourself. Interesting. But it also puts the other writers at ease and encourages them to tell stories. It's like if I'm willing to tell the story about, again, it's like a lot of these things tend to wind up being a little bit crass, but it's like if I'm willing to tell a disgusting story about myself or a story where I embarrass myself horribly,Michael Jamin:Or a sex dream you had, for example,Steve Lemme:I've had severalMichael Jamin:With one of your friends.Steve Lemme:Okay.Michael Jamin:I don't want to say who, that's a great example.Steve Lemme:No. So that's a great example. So can you hear the noise? We'reMichael Jamin:Doing an interview here.Steve Lemme:My wife has come in with the children, so she doesn't know, and I'm displaced. I don't have an office with doors anymore, so I'm,Michael Jamin:There's some damage to his house. So he's got to do an impromptuSteve Lemme:Yeah, the whole, but go ahead side of the house is flooded. Okay. So the story is, so Michael and I have, I'll even say the guy's name.Michael Jamin:Yeah, okay.Steve Lemme:It makes it better. We have a common friend named Eric Levy. You grew up with him in Fresh Chester?Michael Jamin:Yes, in high school. Yeah.Steve Lemme:He and I went to college together, and I don't even know if this is proper improper to say, but I'm not gay and neither is he. But I had a dream about him where he showed up at my house with 50 bags of McDonald's burgers and then it cuts to me fucking him in the ass. But he was on top of me.Michael Jamin:I still love this story and then go on.Steve Lemme:But I told the story because whatever we were riffing on, it was like, what about those? And then I told him about it.Michael Jamin:Yes. And how did he take videos? ISteve Lemme:Called him up laughing the next morning and was like, holy shit, this is so fucking funny. I had this dream about it. You're never going to believe it. And there's a lot of guys who would be like, I'm taking that one to the grave. But the additional joke for me is that when I have with Reba McIntyre, I had a sex dream about her. And to me, when you have a sex dream about somebody, what's the difference between actually having sex with them? Because in real life, if you have sex with somebody afterwards, it's just a memory and it lives longer in your memory. And so to me, it's like if you have a vivid sex dream about Reeb McIntyre, which I did, and then it lives on in your memory, it kind of counts.Michael Jamin:But no, because no consent. She didn't consent to that either. Did Levy,Steve Lemme:You're sayingMichael Jamin:I'm was a nonconsensual sex dream that you had with both of them?Steve Lemme:I don't know. I feel like there's a blurry line there.Michael Jamin:But this is just a good example. You told this story probably the first year to call him after you in the writer's room. And I just remember laughing my ass off thinking, oh my God, this guy's going to be game for pretty much everything we pitch. And this makes easier to write.Steve Lemme:Well, and that's why you and I wound up sitting next to each other because you would always mutter filthy little offerings under your breath to me.Michael Jamin:You would enjoy them. Yeah,Steve Lemme:I didn't. I enjoyed them quite a bit. I enjoyed,Michael Jamin:Lemme ask you that, because I don't know if I've ever asked you this or maybe I forgot. We met you. The show had just gotten picked up and we met through, we had the same management company, right? Yeah, of course weSteve Lemme:Did. I used to be with them. I'm not with them anymore, but Kevin is still with them.Michael Jamin:And that's how we had that meeting. And did you meet with other writers at our level or did you just laise out, say, fuck, we'll just hire these guys. I don't want to meet more people.Steve Lemme:Kevin and I get in trouble like that. We oftentimes do hire the first person we meet, which was you,Michael Jamin:Thank God.Steve Lemme:Yeah. But I think we did. God, they're really making a racket over there. I did. We did meet with one other set of showrunners, I believe. But then what happens anyway, if Kevin and I get past the first interview and make it to the second one by the second one, we're definitely bored and we realize we've made a mistake by prolonging this process. So with us with timing is key. If you get in with us early, if you ever hear about a Lemme Heffernan gig, get your resume to us immediately because youMichael Jamin:Hire the first person you seeSteve Lemme:You got the job. Yeah.Michael Jamin:That's so funny. I know you're good that way. What is it like, I haven't asked you this question, but you do most, you don't do all your projects with Kevin, you do a lot of your projects with him or ever it now, is it everything?Steve Lemme:No, I have some side projects.Michael Jamin:How do you decide what you're doing with him and what you're not doing?Steve Lemme:Well, I try to do most things with Kevin, and I think Kevin would agree to this. For whatever reason, I sometimes find that Kevin is a little tougher to drag into things. I believe he will corroborate this. So I had the idea, we've kicked around the notion of firefighters for a while, but I said to him, let's do it.And then he said, what's the hook going to be? And I came back with this rainiest city in the country hook because it was super troopers, the most asserted stretch of highway in the country. And even then I had to drag him and I want to be careful with this because we developed a show then together and really fleshed it out. So it's like, and he has also had many ideas in those TV sessions. He also had some ideas that he wanted to do, but the animation thing now is another one I felt. I feel like it took me a long time to just get him to really be into it.Michael Jamin:I know it did.Steve Lemme:And actually I'm going to tell you, I think he's only finally into it now. Today,Michael Jamin:Today, todaySteve Lemme:For the last few weeks I We'll tell the story. We'll tell the story. But now and again, to be fair, it's like I was bringing it up probably two years ago, maybe longer, and he would say, okay, sure. But then we'd be writing the series or then we went into pre-production on quasi, which he was directing, but I never just ever got the sense that he really wanted to do it.Michael Jamin:But do you get the sense that he ever wants to do anything?Steve Lemme:No, and that's my point. That's my point. And what I realized with Kevin, and it's fine again, it's like because we're busy, but sometimes you just have to move the ball forward and he'll tell me the same thing just in general about things, and I actually think this is true in Hollywood anyway, if you want to do something, you just have to move the ball forward on your own if you can't get interest. And eventually at some point there's like, okay, this is what I've got.Michael Jamin:Are you, you know what though? When I talk about you, I talk about you guys specifically when I talk about people who've done inspiring things, because when I describe…

Full show notes at the publisher

099 - Should I Write For TV Or Film? Sep 20, 2023

Show notes

On this week's episode, I discuss the differences between writing for TV versus film and the differences in the development phases. We also go into ways to create your own material and what to really focus on. Tune in for much more!Show NotesFree Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlistAutogenerated TranscriptMichael Jamin:If you write something great, the actors will come out of the word work to be in it, and you don't even have to pay 'em because they're getting footage and they're also being involved in something that could be really great and could blow up and could make their careers. But if the script's no good, you're going to have to beg 'em to do it because what's in it for them other than bad footage that they can't use? It'sListening to Screenwriters. Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin.Hey everyone, it's Michael Jamin. Welcome back to another episode of Screenwriters. Need to Hear this. I'm here with Phil Hudson again. Hello, Phil.Phil Hudson:Hey everybody. Good to be back.Michael Jamin:Hello, everybody. Today we're going to talk about something, well, something I think is very important. How about that? The question is, should you write for film or tv? I think a lot of people, at least from social media when they leave comments, I think a lot of people really aspire to be film writers because they have their story and maybe they think it's more prestigious. Maybe they like the idea of going to walking down a red carpet and seeing their work on a large screen. And so I just thought I talked to you about my feelings about film versus TV and why I greatly prefer working in television. And I think anybody who works in film is crazy. So it's not that they're crazy, but it's just like, wow. I see a lot of advantages for working in film. And to be clear, I am a TV writer, but I have sold a couple of movies and after selling those movies I was like, I don't want to do that again. I'd rather work in television, but I definitely see the appeal that people have. So I thought I may shed a little light on what my perspective is. That sounds good with you, Phil.Phil Hudson:I think this is an exciting topic and we were just talking before we started recording, the industry's changed even since I started studying this craft. Seriously, back then there was a viable feature market and it seems like it's gone the wayside, and I've seen the transition over the last decade with filmmakers and screenwriters coming into tv. I think because the money's better, there's more work, there's more creative freedom, and I'm sure you'll talk about it, but there's that saying of the director runs the film set and the writer runs the TV set.Michael Jamin:Yeah, if you want creative control, we have lots to talk about, but if it's creative control that you want, then you want to be in TV because the writer's in charge. If you want to be in charge in a film, then the director's in charge. Often the writer's not even invited to set. The writer has no say that will be rewritten. The director might hire multiple writers to rewrite. So if you think if it's about your vision, unless you are shooting yourself, forget it. You are really an afterthought. And like you said, they are making far fewer movies now than they were even 15, 20 years ago, probably a third as many. And when you look at the titles being released, you got a lot of remakes. You got a lot of sequels, you got a lot of reboots. Yeah, I mean, so they're makingPhil Hudson:Another, it's largely IP based material too. So it's other books that have blown up and they buy the rights to that. They then make that.Michael Jamin:So it is because they're easier to market, which is why you have Fast and The Furious 13, everyone knows that and it's why you have it, Indiana Jones five, because everyone knows it's just easier to market. And even Barbie, I don't know if it's Greta Go's Dream to make, when she was approached to write Barbie, she's probably Barbie, do I have to Barbie? What about my original idea? So obviously she wrote the Barbie movie and turned it into something very unique and special. But I can't imagine as a child, she grew up thinking, I want to write a movie about Barbie. They came to her with an offer and she turned into something unique and creative, but I don't think she came, maybe I shouldn't speak, but I can't imagine she brought the Barbie idea to them. I think they had to move the ip and yeah,Phil Hudson:I'm certain that's the case, but even then because of the success of Barbie, now Mattel is talking about creating their own cinematic universe,Michael Jamin:Right? Right. So get ready for more gi whatever it is. I don't know. Is that your dream? Now, indie filmmaking, by the way, is a completely different topic. Maybe we can brush on it a little. My area of expertise is definitely not independent filmmaking, but that's a whole different,Phil Hudson:But that's what I went to film school for and that's the Sundance world that I kind of been in. So I'm familiar with that. And there's a bit of a merge there. And we can talk about tko. Waititi is a really great example of that because he came out of the indie film world. He was a Sundance kid, and then he started doing more prolific stuff. And while I was touring for quasi handling social media for the broken lizard guys, that's one of the conversations we had with their, one of the Searchlight VPs of publicity. And she was like, yeah, Tika, he does one for us, we do one for him. You do Thor, you want to do Thor? Awesome. We'll make invisible Hitler. And it's a way for them to incentivize. But I would say Clin Eastwood, I would say even look at Christopher Nolan, that's the way it works. You get this deal at these big studios, I'll make your billion dollar film, and then they let you make the film you want to make, and one is going to make a ton of money, may win some awards, the other one's going to win some awards because they have the talent.Michael Jamin:So if it's your aspiration for me, just the thought of working film, you go, okay, I'll write a film and maybe I can sell it. But then, okay, then how many times are you going to sell a, it is hard to sustain that career. Whereas in television, oh, I know there's a TV show and maybe they have whatever, 10 or 13 episodes a season that sounds like you can make a living that sounds like you're working more steadily. And when I broke in, by the way, it's 22 episodes, so I was like, oh, okay, these people work all the time. And for 10 seasons, that sounds to me that was the lure of a steady paycheck was in television, maybe less so today, but certainly more so than being a filmmaker.Phil Hudson:Yeah, that's fascinating. One thing that's standing out to me from this conversation really just echoes what you've been saying throughout the history of the podcast, and we're approaching two years of this podcast, and that is you have to get out and do it yourself. Nobody's going to do it for you. You can't rely on anybody else. You have to get up and do it. And even the gre Gerwig, the Tiger Boy, tee Tees, they had a name for themselves as filmmakers before the big studio came with the big bag of money. They were the value, and that's where they came to take advantage of them, right? Yeah. Greta Gerwig has the way to make her film stand out in her way and her style, and that's why it's a big hit. I don't think it's largely because it's Barbie, it's because of what she did with Barbie that made it work. But that's something she has honed and developed over years and years and years of hard work before she hit it big.Michael Jamin:And also my friend Chrissy Stratton, who I'm going to have back on the podcast at some point, we had her run before. So I met her on King of the Hill. She's a writer on King of the Hill. But then she went on to a very long career, almost as long as mine, working in various TV shows. She might be just one or two years behind me, pretty much equal. And she works all the time in tv, but she had this film that she's been dreaming about for whatever, 10 or 15 years and then decided, you know what? I'm just going to make a short. And so on her own dime. And she raised the money. She's a successful TV writer, but in film, she's the no one. So she started from scratch and she called in a lot of favors and shot a movie on by raising her own money, real low budget.And we'll talk more about this journey and why she's doing it, but it's not like, even though she's big in tv, she's a no one in film. So it's kind of a level playing field. And one of the thing, well, I know I'm jumping around, but I just so you're aware, as I mentioned about creative control in film, well, lemme tell you about the experiences that I went through. So my writing partner and I, we wrote a writing sample, a feature sample. I was dreaming it was going to get sold, but he was like, it's not going to get sold, whatever. But I was like, maybe it will. We wrote a sample, our agent shopped it around, no one bought it as predicted, but there was a producer who was very interested in working. He's like, this is great. We can't it, but let's try coming up with some ideas together and sell those.And so we worked with this producer and we wound up selling two more ideas, but every step of the way, it was kind of exhausting. We're coming up with ideas, we're writing drafts, we're giving it to him. He's got notes we're not getting, and you're doing, it's called free revisions. You're doing notes after notes. We sold it to the studio, but the producer is basically the gate. So until the producer's happy with the draft, the studio will never see it. And so this is what free revisions is. So you're doing constant rewrites for the producer.Phil Hudson:This is a big deal for the W G A, by the way. It's a very big deal. It's part of the strike too.Michael Jamin:Yeah. I don't know what's going to obviously happen with it. And you're doing a lot of free work, which you're not getting paid obviously, and the studio's not seeing any of it. And then you get finally the producer's happy, you give it to the studio and then the studio has notes and then, okay, now you're again. So they say, do a revision. And again, you go back, you start doing the revision, you've turned into the producer and the producer's like, eh, I don't think it's good enough fellas. I need to do more work and more work. And then finally you turn that revision to the studio. I was at one point producer who I liked quite a bit, really good guy, but he also had development people working under him. So at one point his development person left, he brought in a new one, and now this new person has a new direction that we're going, oh my God.It was like, this is a never ending hell. That's how I felt. It's just a never ending hell because you have to please them. And I understand this is how the game is played, but I was like in tv, it doesn't work this way in tv, if I'm a writer on staff, I turn in my draft to the showrunner. If I'm not the showrunner, the showrunner has notes, great. Turn in another draft, we're done. Shoot, we're going to shoot it. And of course the network will have notes, but it's so much more streamlined because you have a timetable, we have to shoot this thing on Friday, so you can't keep this up in development hell for a year, which is what happens if you're doing film. You could be in hell forever on this. I was like, work done. And that'sPhil Hudson:The term too. It's development health, what you said. That's an industry term for what that is.Michael Jamin:And the money, in terms of the money, I got paid way more in TV than I do in film. SoPhil Hudson:That's what I was about to say. I just said, we talked about the podcast, that experience I had where that guy signed the script, signed the contract to write a script for that thing, and it kind of fizzled out, but the numbers on it were, it's like $160,000 to write a screenplay. Well, the average I understand is about six months to go through the whole process to write a script more than that. But then you have the notes and you have the feedback and you got all that stuff. So you're going to do one, maybe two of those a year. Well, you can go get an M B A and then go get a six figure paycheck that's going to pay you more than that. AndMichael Jamin:Just so you know, the movie's not getting made and it has nothing to do with you or it's just like it's a miracle movies. It's a miracle when a movie gets made. So if you want to see your work on the screen, even if it's been rewritten to death, forget it. Most movies just do not get made. So you're okay, but you used to make a good living writing movies that never got made. Maybe it's less so now because they're making because they're buying fewer. But back in the day, you could be a very successful screenwriter and never have a word of yours onscreen. But in TV it's different.Phil Hudson:One question that comes to mind for me, Michael, when you talk about free revisions and development, hell, you also advocate that writers write and they write for free. And if you don't want to write for free, don't do this because that's what this job looks like.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Phil Hudson:Right. What's the difference between the experience with the free revisions and the notes with the producer versus your definition of free writing?Michael Jamin:I mean, we're talking about two things. We're talking about improving your craft to write, to learn how to write. And so a lot of people just write one script and they think, well, I'm going to sell it and I'm done. Give me a paycheck. And my point is then you put it down and write another one and then write another one. And you'll notice that script number five is vastly better than script number one simply because you're getting better at writing. But the free revisions I'm talking about for these producers, when you become a professional at some point, I got to take home money. This is not a hobby for me. This is how I make my living. So I just didn't enjoy the process. I just thought like, ugh, it is no fun. It takes the joy out of it.Phil Hudson:Yeah, no kidding. So we have to write. We have to write. That's part of writing. Being a writer is writing. But what the WGA is fighting for is that writers should be paid for all of the professional rioting where other people are making money off of the sweat of their back. They're taking advantage of that situation because a bit of a power dynamic there where the producer has control and obviously they want to maintain their relationship and they want to make it as good as they can be. So I'm not saying it's a negative or a nefarious approach to it, but it's still a writers are sitting there not getting paid.Michael Jamin:I understand the producers are protecting their brand and they have a closer relationship with the studio. I get it. But they're not the ones doing all that work for free…

Full show notes at the publisher

Bonus: July Webinar Q&A Sep 15, 2023

Show notes

In July, I hosted a webinar called "How To Get Past Hollywood Gatekeepers" where I shared my thoughts on creative things you can do now with the strikes happening, as well as what you shouldn't be doing. This episode addresses questions you asked in our Q&A session that we didn't have time to answer. There's lots of great info here, make sure you watch.Show NotesFree Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlistAutogenerated TranscriptMichael Jamin:You shouldn't. You should not try to work. I mean, you don't go on any guild SAG projects or guild projects, but you could do, if it's a non SAG project, like a student film or something, you can do that. You're not violating anything. You're not getting paid, but you can build your network. Exactly. Or make your own stuff. If you write your own mini scene or movie or whatever and you shoot it on your phone, you're not breaking any strikes. You're not selling it, you're just shooting it. You're listening to screenwriters. Need to hear this with Michael. Hey everybody, welcome back. It's Michael Jamin. I'm here with Phil Hudson and we are going to answer some questions. So as you may or may not know, we host a webinar, a free webinar every three weeks usually, and I try to answer a different topic. And the last topic we did was called How to Get Past Industry Gatekeepers. And we did an exclusive v i P room afterwards where people could ask questions. This is where the questions are coming from, Phil, right?Phil Hudson:No, these are actually the ones from the webinar. We didn'tMichael Jamin:Oh, these are from the webinar. Okay.Phil Hudson:Yeah, because we shifted things up and for people who, dunno, you were spending a lot of time, we were staying on for an hour doing q and a with everybody, and so we just decided to give everyone an opportunity to hop in and get FaceTime with you. It's limited seats of V I P Q and A, and this is for the people who ask questions during the webinar who didn't get their questions answered rightMichael Jamin:Now I'm confused. Okay. Yeah, so to be clear, the webinar is free, but we also did a little bonus thing afterwards that people can buy in so I can answer more questions. So these are questions. I didn't get it. We didn't have time to answer and Phil's going to cue me. What is it? Yeah,Phil Hudson:No, I was going to say we're going to dive in and I think it's just two things. If you want to have a question answered by Michael, there's two ways to get that done and you're very, very open with your time. One is to join the webinar. We typically have one, sometimes two a month depending on the month, and it's a different topic typically every time. But we have a couple that people really like, so we might be focusing on those. But if you can't get your question answered there, the v i P is an opportunity for them to hop in with you and really just spend that time, time you turn your camera on. You ask myMichael Jamin:Question. Well, it's not one-on-one. A small group of people.Phil Hudson:So it's not one-on-one in the sense that you sit there and you get to talk to Michael. You don't have to. It's not, yeah. Thank you for clarifying. Yeah. So yeah, let's dive in. And we've done previous episodes. I've broken these into subjects. So there are a couple key categories. This is heavily weighted towards breaking into Hollywood because that was the topic,Michael Jamin:ButPhil Hudson:I think the craft questions are always good. So starting there, Norville, scs, if a character changes for the better over the course of a story, is there initial likability, something to focus on?Michael Jamin:Well, likability is a complicated thing. Sometimes people, you'll get a note from the studio saying these need to be likable. And that's not the same thing as the audience needs to the characters, which is a different, okay, so Tony Soprano is not a likable person. You don't want to spend 10 minutes with the guy, he might kill you, okay? But the audience likes to watch him because he's interesting. But often you'll get a note from the studio saying, these characters, they're too unlikable. I don't have an answer to that. It depends if you're doing a drama or a comedy, but generally the note you're going to get is these need to be likable characters, especially if you're doing a comedy. We're spending time with them, we're spending a lot of time with them. So even in Cheers, I'm sure one of the notes was Carla's too unlikable, so they probably softened her up so she wasn't, because you're spending time with him, this is your family, I guess. I dunno if that answers the question. It's the best I can do. Well,Phil Hudson:I think the question comes from Save the Cat, which you've admittedly never read and you've never read, but it definitely talks about how your character should do something to make us like them in the first three to five pages because we'll want to root for them and it's a redeeming factor and there's plenty of evidence as to why that's not necessarilyMichael Jamin:Accurate. I don't subscribe to that. I don't subscribe to that. So yeah,Phil Hudson:As good as it gets. You recommended, I read that for a script. I was writing one point. Is that it? Where is that? Not Jack Nicholson.Michael Jamin:Yeah, I mean I love that, but I don't rememberPhil Hudson:Telling you, but he throws the dog down the garbage shoot.Michael Jamin:Oh yeah, it was the first time we seen him. He throws the dog down the garbage shoot.Phil Hudson:It's the opposite of saving the cat.Michael Jamin:And it'sPhil Hudson:A classic, it's incredible film.Michael Jamin:And that's a film, right? So that's not a sitcom. So again, I don't subscribe to this thing. The character has to do something likable. What is that? I mean, I think they have to do something interesting. Engaging and throwing a dog on a shoot is kind of interesting for sure. SoPhil Hudson:Yeah, what kind of person would do that? Use his questions. Jackie Smite. What if you have a script for a very specific franchise? Is it simply foolish if you are an inexperienced or is it a bad idea in general?Michael Jamin:Bad idea in general. And it's foolish. You got 'em both write. You can't write for a franchise. You don't own the ip, it's not yours, let it go. You don't write a Marvel movie, don't write a Disney movie with the princesses. It's not yours, so let it go. Don't write anything with a franchise.Phil Hudson:This is a very common one. I mean, most people have an idea for a story and it's based off of existing ip. I remember talking to a friend in 2008, a couple months after I really started studying screenwriting. She's like, oh, I have this enemy franchise. I want to adapt for tv. And I was like, okay, I don't think you could do that. And yeah,Michael Jamin:Reach out to, if you get the rights from them, then do it, but you don't have the rights, so don't do it.Phil Hudson:And that is a process and we'll probably circle back on that because there's a question about attorneys, which we'll get to in a minute.Michael Jamin:Oh, okay.Phil Hudson:Cliff Johnson ii. I write drama features to half hour comedy and also differing genres. Is it limiting to spread myself thin or should I keep building a diverse portfolio?Michael Jamin:You don't need a diverse portfolio. I'd say specialize in whatever it is you enjoy the most. Focus on that, get really good at it, and then market yourself as the best damn thriller writer there is. Or the best broad comedy writer there is. You don't need a broad portfolio. You need to have a specific portfolio that really showcases your excellence in this one area.Phil Hudson:Yeah. You've given advice as well in the past that let's say you're a sitcom writer, well get really good at writing half hour single camera sitcoms that do multi, then do animated. So you stay in that genre, but you can build a portfolio within that genre to show your base. But it's different than writing violent westerns and Taylor Sheridan style.Michael Jamin:Yes. Right. I'm glad you pointed at that. So if you want to be a comedy writer, you might want a Yes. A broad you should have, should have a grounded single camera comedy, but it's all comedy. Yeah.Phil Hudson:Yeah. Awesome. Andrew James jokes, do you see everything from a certain comedic viewpoint when thinking of content or writing a script,Michael Jamin:A certain comedic viewpoint? I don't remember. Not sure what that means. There's things that strike me as funny. I'm not sure if I have. I thinkPhil Hudson:For me, I think I understand this question, but I don't want to interrupt you if you have something.Michael Jamin:No, what do you think?Phil Hudson:I think what's being asked is when I was told once that I have a particular view of the world and it often is a comical view of the world. I look at the ridiculousness of bureaucracy or rules and rather than get upset, I just make fun of them or I find ways to poke holes at them. To me it's really that question. Do you have that point of view to say, this is my Mike. Judge has, I would say, has a really clear point of view and the way he does his things. Do you look at things through a certain lens?Michael Jamin:I don't know if I do. I mean, I'm sure I have a voice. I'm always interested, I guess how do I like finding things, thinking of things that are funny, but I'm not sure if I have a specific I tact that I take, sorry, I can't help them more. I got to think about that more. Do I have a point of view? I tend to think silly and stupid, but I think I'm smart. I mean, I went to college and everything, but I don't think I'm dumb, but I think my voice is sometimes of a dumb person.Phil Hudson:When I think of your voice, I think of a lot of the things you share about the way you kid with your daughters,Michael Jamin:The way I kid with my daughters.Phil Hudson:Yeah, just like you've done a couple of social media posts where you're like, it's like dad jokes, but at a different level. It's an elevated dad joke almost.Michael Jamin:Well, I'm their dad.Phil Hudson:I know, but it's like dad jokes very punny. And then yours is one step further and you've done several of these quick bites on social media that are related to your conversations with your daughters. To me, that's Michael Jamin and Comedy.Michael Jamin:Oh yeah. I love having fun with my kids. They're so funny. Yeah.Phil Hudson:Cool. And then Phyllis Hill, Phyllis was pretty active, so we got a bunch of questions from her, but they were very good. I sorted through a bunch of 'em. And this is a little bit tied to something I know we've talked about before and I just thought it was good to put on the podcast. Have streaming platforms changed story structure, the same story structure that might've been used back during the day of network TV shows?Michael Jamin:Great question. Not in a hugely significant way. The biggest thing is probably, well, there's no commercial breaks, but so what? We still break the story still the same. We just don't go to commercial. But when we break it on the whiteboard, same thing. It doesn't matter. The only difference is streamers sometimes want you to have serialized stories. So the end, they want to end on a pregnant moment where, so it's continued. So the next story picks up where the last one ended. That's sometimes what they want so that you binge, but that's kind of easy. Often you can, if you go back and watch Weeds, the show Weeds, they did that really well see, they tell a full story and then at the end the story's over. They just do a weird little thing at the end of that story. And then that story would be the beginning. That beat would be the beginning of the next story. So it's super easy in terms of breaking it. It actually makes it kind of easy. It doesn't make, it's the same kind of storytelling. You're just adding one more beat at the end.Phil Hudson:Yeah, that's awesome. I think that's a very concise answer, Michael.Michael Jamin:I get paid by Word.Phil Hudson:I love that. I was going to say Charles Duma is Alexander Duma. I don't know who Charlie Duma is, but he's probably Alexander Dumas's cousin twice divorced. Some questions about your course which come up because during the webinar you're often, one of the things, people have a chance to win your course, you get lifetime access to the course. One person wins every time, but also you give a discount to the course.Michael Jamin:Yeah, if you're listening to this, come to these free webinars that I div, we give a good discount to anyone who attendsPhil Hudson:And that opens registration for that block of enrollment. Leonard h wanted to know, will the course do anything for someone working on documentaries?Michael Jamin:Yeah, I don't know. I mean personally I think yes, but I'm not a documentary filmmaker, but I have watched documentary films where I thought this would've been better if they went through my course. They would've dove into the emotional moments that I feel. But having never made a documentary, what the hell do I know? But I have watched documentaries where I thought this was good, but it wasn't great. It didn't really move me emotionally or I should. I think that's when documentaries really work is when or anything works when you finish watching it and you're still thinking about it, you're still feeling it the next day. So I don't want to promise, but I would think it would help. ButPhil Hudson:I have taken a documentary film class as part of my film school stuff. It's honestly one of the better classes I took. It was taught by a guy named Hank who was a Sundance fellow in the documentary labs and he done multiple documentaries. That's literally, he teaches and then he and his wife shoot documentaries and manage those tons of stuff in South by Southwest, the film fest, Sundance Film Festival, all that stuff. And absolutely story structure is a very vital part of that. And you get into the cinema verte and how you're doing your documentary and the influence of structure and story, but the story structure had to be there, or no one wants to watch what you're doing,Michael Jamin:Nobody cares. So the hard part is you can't invent that. You have to hopefully capture that and then know, oh, I captured this moment. This would be a good first act break.Phil Hudson:But they're scripted there. They're scripted. You need to understand what things you need to get, what beats you want to get as you tell the story. And then it evolves out of that. You often are surprised by what you get, but then there's the paper edit you do when you go into editing where you have transcripts of all the footage and you're looking for things. And it was a little bit uncomfortable for me then and still is now. He even encouraged that it's your job to tell the best version of that story as you can. And there is no such thing as cinema verite, truth of the camera, right? Truth of the lens. You can't because the moment you're there observing it, it changes. And that's a law of…

Full show notes at the publisher

098 - Writer/Executive Producer Alex Berger Sep 13, 2023

Show notes

On this week's episode, Writer/Executive Producer Alex Berger (Blindspot, Glen Martin D.D.S, Quantum Leap, and many many more) talks about his writing career, thoughts on breaking into the industry as well as his experiences taking a "Showrunners Course" through the studios.STORY NOTESAlex Berger on IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm1584238/Alex Berger on Twitter: https://twitter.com/alexbergerla?lang=enFree Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlistAUTOGENERATED TRANSCRIPTAlex Berger:They said, when you're interviewing a director, ask if you're the showrunner and you're interviewing somebody who's coming in to do an episode of your show, ask the director, do you cook? And if so, are you a person who uses a recipe or do you like to improvise? And there's no right answer to that, right? But if you cook and you're the person who is going to measure out the exact number of grams of flour and the exact number of grams of sugar, that's kind of how you're going to approach directing. If you're going to come in with a shot list, you're going to be going to stay on time. You're going to make sure that you move the set along. And if you're the person who likes to kind throw a little salt to throw a little sugar, you might be a little more improvisational on say you might be a little more, more. There's little things like that that you're going to how to dig in on this with those. NowMichael Jamin:You're listening to Screenwriters Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin.Hey everyone. Welcome back to Screenwriters. Need to hear this. Michael Jamin here. I have another wonderful guest today and this guest, we're going to talk about drama writing because he works primarily in drama and his story is fascinating how he broke in. And we're going to get to please welcome Mr. Alex Berger and he's worked on Alex. Let me introduce people to some of your amazing credits here and you can fill in in, I'm just going to go for some of the highlights. Well, I know you did Kil, you co-created Glen Martin d d s, which is the show. My partner ran Covert Affairs, the Assets Franklin and Bash the Mentalist Blind Spot. And currently you are a writer on Quantum Leap, so you got a lot of drama. Burger. Welcome, welcome to the podcast.Alex Berger:Thank you so much for having me. It's, it's good to be here. I've been enjoying listening to it.Michael Jamin:Oh man, I'm so happy you're doing this. Let's talk. Let's start from the beginning because I think it was so interesting about your background. So many people say, how do I get a showrunner attached to sell my show? And you kind of sold your show, your show, Glen Martin, d d s. You were pretty new to the scene and then you got a show on the air without much experience. So how did that happen?Alex Berger:Yeah, I'd been out here for probably five or six years and I'd had a couple of staff jobs. I'd had a job doing a sort of comedy variety show before that. That was a very sort of small potatoes thing. But that came about because Steve Cohen Cohen, who I know you've talked about before, was a friend of mine and had mentioned this idea that Michael Eisner had for a long time about a family who traveled the country in an rv and they had writers attached for a long time. Tim and Eric of Tim and Eric Show were attached to write the thing.Michael Jamin:I didn't know any of this.Alex Berger:They got a 60 episode order on their other show, and so they had to back out. And so Steve would come in and pitch a take. So I came in and I pitched a take, and Michael Eisner, who had just left basically running Hollywood, he was running, Disney had just started a company, and he had just had larynx surgery, so he couldn't talk. So every time I pitched something, he had to write his response on a computer, which was fun, but a little challenging.Michael Jamin:But what was the idea, how much, when you pitched your take, what did they give you?Alex Berger:He had said Family lives in an rv. Basically it travels the country and animation. And he had more than that. I mean, it is been almost 20 years, so I've forgotten. But he definitely had a real idea. He'd had this idea for 30 or 40 years that he'd wanted to do over the years at Disney and he wasn't able to do it. So he had a pretty formed idea of what he wanted the show to be. ButMichael Jamin:Was it dentist you came up with that throughAlex Berger:Development? I mean, that was sort of like Steve and I, Steve became sort of a, and it was almost like an incubator instead of a typical situation in which I would come in and pitch a show, he kind of brainstormed with me and created the ideas with me, and we kind of toyed with a couple of different versions of it and came up with the idea of him being, why is he on the road and what's he driving in? And came up with the idea of a dentist that was in his mobile dentistry unit and sort of built some of the characters around that. And it kind of kept getting added to,Michael Jamin:Because all that stuff became comedy gold throughout the seasons. We were like, what kind of idiot has a dental car? Who does he think, what kind of clients? How does that work? And it all became fodder for the show,Alex Berger:For the circus at one point. And it was doing dental work on animals, if I remember correctly. But it was definitely, I didn't think I'd seen that before. So that was kind of one of the things that was fun to explore.Michael Jamin:And so you came up with all the, well, at least the dynamics for the characters, because what I remember, we watched the, I dunno if it was a pilot or presentation that you saw, but yeah, the characters you invented were funny. You had the dumb kid, he had the daughter and she had an assistant, which we hadn't seen that before.Alex Berger:It was definitely even more than other experiences I've had in development, very much a team effort. And then we had sort of come up with a script, and then I think you had Eric Fogle on the show before, and Eric came on and was also sort of added his vision both in terms of look and feel and tone and story, and was digging in with us. And then Michael on his own, paid for an eight minute pilot presentation. So they made an eight minute stop motion, basically the first act of the show. And he took it downtown and took it everywhere. And we ended up setting it up at Nick at night with this 20 episode order. And I think that's when you guys sort of made the picture, right?Michael Jamin:So you started, I'm curious. It's funny how I never even asked you about this. So at that point you had to meet showrunners for a show you created, which we're going to talk about a second. Did you meet a lot of showrunners?Alex Berger:I met none of the showrunners. I met you guys after you'd been hired.Michael Jamin:Oh, really? I wonder how many they had. SoAlex Berger:The tote system was, they wanted to sort of make that decision. And so they met with showrunners and had decided they were very much immediately captivated by you guys and were really excited about, and I don't think it was a pretty quick decision. And then they had me come to meet you guys.Michael Jamin:Now the thing is, I imagine you were very easy to work with and to your great credit, I always felt like you just turned over the keys and it was like, okay, here you go. And it was never an ego thing if you, but was it difficult though for you?Alex Berger:I mean, I can give you the answer that I was thinking at the time, and I can give you the answer that I have in retrospect. I think at the time I felt like, I don't know. It's a good question. Let me give you the answer in retrospect first, which is in retrospect, I know that I was inexperienced to know, especially about comedy writing a lot and certainly about running a show. I think at the time I was very happy for you guys to come in and run it. And exactly as you said, take the keys. I think that I felt intimidated because it was a room full of really seasoned comedy writers. I knew I was one of the least experienced writers on the show, and yet my name was on the show. So it was a kind of a weird game. It's not like a typical situation in which a more experienced writer comes in, but they've never run a show.So they pair them with a show runner and then they're really a triumvirate or something. I definitely felt like experience wise and sort of comedy chops wise, I was with folks who'd broken 2, 3, 400 episodes of cool sitcoms that I really admired. So I felt like I wanted to contribute from a character and comedy perspective as much as I could, but I also felt like I was learning on the fly that I had my name on. So it was definitely tricky to sort of figure that out. But you guys were great about never feeling like you were stepping on toes, and you always would consult with me, especially at the beginning, but it was very clear that it was your show, but it was also that you wanted me to sort be on board with what we were doing.Michael Jamin:And I mean, it was a fun room. I mean, maybe I shouldn't speak for you. I thought it was a fun room. Yeah,Alex Berger:Yeah, it was great. I mean, it was like I'd never been in a sitcom room before. I mean, I've been in a couple of drama rooms as an assistant and a writer, and those rooms are more buttoned up and a little more like, let's come in at 10 and start talking about the story at 10 15. And there's definitely bits and sort of digressions, but a comedy room has a certain energy that you can't replicate. And it was really fun to be in that room. And I've been in rooms that are a little bit like that since, but never anything that was, I laughed quite so much, just had it.Michael Jamin:I was going to ask you about that, right? I haven't worked in any, we've done dark comedy, but never drama. And so I'm curious, you've done a lot of drama. So are the rooms, are they really what you're saying? Are they buttoned up? Are they sur because it's still a creative shop?Alex Berger:It's fun. I would say this is based on a very small sample size of my two years in Glen Martin. And then just listening to comedy writers talk, I think comedy writers find the genius through procrastination. I think that it takes the tangent sometimes to get you to the gold. And I know you guys, especially more than other comedy writers I've known, were very focused on story structure. I know from your time with Greg Daniels and Seaver had bought a book at the mall,And it was very important to you that the story felt like it had load-bearing walls, but it did feel like more free flowing and there were room bits and there was a whole sitcom inside that room of three characters, both people in the room and people we were looking out the window at. So that's definitely different than other shows I've been on, other shows I've been on, it's a little more like, all right, let's get to work. And especially these days with room hours have gotten shorter and so on less. And I've been in Zoom rooms for the last couple of years, so it's even less of a roomMichael Jamin:Basic. Oh, so gotten, haven't gotten, your last rooms haven't been in person either. YouAlex Berger:Haven't? Yeah, I've been in three Zoom rooms since the pandemic.Michael Jamin:It's funny you mentioned because comedy rooms have room bits and our offices were on Beverly Hills and Big glamorous street in Beverly Hills. We would look out the window, and you're right, we would create stories when we weren't making stories for the tv, we were making stories for the regular characters that we would see outside our windows.Alex Berger:Yeah, I mean truly. I know you had Brian and Steve and a couple of other people from the show on. I have not laughed that hard in a room.It was a blast. And I also think there's value to it creatively. It's not wasted time. I think it's just a different way of getting to the process. I remember hearing once of, I can't remember which one, it was a Simpsons writer who would be on draft. He had two weeks to write his draft, and he would past around the fox lot for 12 days and then write the draft in the last two days. And someone asked him, why don't you just write the draft for the first two days and then be done? And he said, because I need those 12 days of pacing to get me to the last two days. And I think copywriter are more prone to that kind of way of thinking. I think.Michael Jamin:See, see, I don't remember that way always. I always get nervous when that story's not broken. I always want to crack the whip seavers more. Like that's, but to me, I was always,Alex Berger:When you were in the room, it was more like, let's stay on story. And when see, it was a little more. And then when you guys were both out of the room, it was even more free flowing, which is not to say that all of the eps weren't trying to keep us on story, but its like it's was a silly show about silly characters and absurd, every premise of every episode had a massive degree of absurdity to it. And so you wouldn't be too serious in a room like that, or you wouldn't be ready to make that kind of show. I mean, at least that was my take on it.Michael Jamin:I would describe that as a writer's show. It was always about what made us laugh and not the 15 year old kids who shouldn't be watching or the 10 year old kids. I knowAlex Berger:It was either Brian or Steve who said it was a show with a demographic of nobody.Michael Jamin:Yeah,Alex Berger:The demographic of the 15 people in that room for sure. We all really enjoyed watch them. They're all really funny. They'reMichael Jamin:Funny.Alex Berger:It was on the wrong network.Michael Jamin:Oh, for sure. Steve and I were horsing around procrastinating on some work we were doing, and for some reason we stumbled on, maybe it was some guy's YouTube channel where he was talking about Glen Martin and this guy nailed it. It was like he was in the room. I don't know how he knew every, it seemed like he knew where we messed up. He knew where we got it. Right. I was justAlex Berger:Amazed. I saw that video and I was like, I can't believe somebody watched the show. I thought that literally, I could not imagine that this guy was that deep into the show.Michael Jamin:Oh no. I get a lot of comments on social media like, oh my God, you ruined my childhood. Really? Like you gave me nightmares.Alex Berger:My wife's cousin is like 25 or 26, and he's dating a girl. And on the second date, he asked her what your favorite shows are. And the second show she said was Glen Martin, d d s. And when he said, oh, my wife's cousin wrote that show, she was instantly smid with him. She gave him so much gr.Michael Jamin:Oh, that's so funny. I mean, it was a wild show, man. Too bad. That was a shame. We were going to spin it off too. We all, oh yeah,Alex Berger:Stone spin off right behind. OhMichael Jamin:Yeah, there you go.Alex Berger:The Drake Stone. Yeah,Michael Jamin:All my dolls. Yeah. As soon as they went under, they go here. Here take some. You must have some dolls, right? They give you some dolls. I haveAlex Berger:Alen Martin Puppet and an Alex Burger puppet, and my kids constantly want to play with them and I won't let them.Michael Jamin:Who were you in the show? I don't remember what kind.Alex Berger:I think…

Full show notes at the publisher

097 - TV Writer/Showrunner Bill Martin Sep 06, 2023

Show notes

On this week's episode, Writer/Showrunner Bill Martin (The Unicorn, The Neighborhood, 3rd Rock From The Sun, and many many more) talks about his showbiz career and starting out writing in sketch comedy then eventually transitioning over to scripted. Tune in as he also talks about his experiences working with a writing partner.SHOW NOTESBill Martin's IMDB Page - https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0551979/Free Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlistAUTOGENERATED TRANSCRIPTBill Martin:When we got on board, we just got an overall deal with A, B, C. So we were assignable to this and we thought, this is insane. We'd love the commercials about anybody, but there's no way they're going to put on. So we thought it was just like, we'll help out a pilot, meet some new people, and then we'll do something else. It was shocking to us that they put it on tv.Michael Jamin:Oh, howBill Martin:Interesting. Because it just seems so unlikely, but with anything you do, you know how it is. Once you're given your assignment, you've got to find a way to take pride in it.Michael Jamin:You're listening to Screenwriters Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin.Hey everyone, welcome back to Screenwriters. Need to hear this. I got another great guest today Actually. Ordinarily I would never have a sitcom writer who's more successful than me on my show. I out of Insecurity, but I'm doing it today to prove that I'm more magnanimous than he is. And so welcome to the show, bill Martin, whose credits are fricking crazy good and he had so many great credits. I'm going to list some of the great credits and I'm also, maybe I'll throw in some not so great credits to humble you, to keep you humble.Bill Martin:There are plenty of,Michael Jamin:But you started in Living Color and I wanted to talk about that. I love that show. But then she tv, third Rock from the Sun, grounded for Life, and I'm skipping many. Okay, cavemen, the singles table. Hank How to Rock Malibu Country Soul Man, which I believe, I think we met on that and I think you guys beat us out with good reason.Bill Martin:That's what I'm really here for. Revenge.Michael Jamin:Yes. Right, right, right. Living Biblically. We'll talk about that. And the, the unicorn, the neighborhood, the unicorn, which you and your partner created and the neighborhood. Are you guys running that as well, neighborhood or no? We are. You are. Damn. What's it like to be welcome to the show and what's it like to be a working sitcom writer? What's it like working on a network TV show nowadays?Bill Martin:Yeah. Well, I mean, I will point out that it's fantastic and I know that because I've also been a non-working sitcom writer. Plenty. I mean, that's the awful thing about this life we've chosen is that every spring is the panic of, oh my God, am I retired? I just don't know it yet.Michael Jamin:What do you know? Brian Bihar? Do you know who he is?Bill Martin:Yes.Michael Jamin:He said me and he said to me that people in the business are retired seven years before they know it.Bill Martin:Yes.Michael Jamin:I hadn't heard that. I was like, oh God, is the clockBill Martin:Running? I knew that makes perfect sense though. Yeah, yeah.Michael Jamin:But the thing is not even about staffing season anymore now you don't even know when you're not working. You justBill Martin:True. True.Michael Jamin:So what is it like, how is it, honestly, haven't written on a network television show in many years we've been on cable or whatever, streaming. And how has it changed? How has Network changed? More notes, last notes.Bill Martin:That's the weird thing is it has not changed. I mean, we are preserved in Amber. The neighborhood is just the good old days. It's a big writer's room. It's run throughs, it's show nights. It's really almost unreal. When we took the job, we expected it to, COVID obviously jumbled everything up, but once the covid restricted to Lifted, it was like, oh, this is exactly the classic sitcom situation.Michael Jamin:See, one of my fears is that multi cameras will go away because there's so few people still doing it. I mean, do you feel that way?Bill Martin:Yeah, we keep thinking that they're done, but at the same time, people are still watching friends in Seinfeld and there still aren't that many single camera comedies that are that sticky with people. So I'm not sure that they're being given up on yet. I mean, there's pros and cons to them, but I think that kind of warmth that you only have when you're watching an audience show is something that people still crave.Michael Jamin:But I mean in terms of there's so few multi-camera shows being made now, then let's say in 10 or 15 years if they want to make more, who's going to know how to do it?Bill Martin:The breeding pool is, yeah, the breeding pool has shrunk to the point where we'll all be just inbred ligers. Yeah, you're right. Frankly, that's why I'm working because there's not a minor league for it anymore. Yeah, I know N B C and a BBC are trying them. They are developing them, but really right now it's Monday night on c b s and that's about it. So we are fully prepared to just turn off the lights when we leave and that'll be the end. ButMichael Jamin:Now tell me how you broke in, because I think your first creative was living single, I mean not living single, but living color.Bill Martin:Living color andMichael Jamin:Living, which, so there was a sketch show, which huge for the young people. I mean it, Jim Carrey and all these huge stars came out of that, which you couldn't have been imagined back then. It's one of the first shows on Fox. But how did that come to be? How did you get on that?Bill Martin:That was purely a situation where Keenan burned through writers so fast that they were always hiringMichael Jamin:Really.Bill Martin:And we got our first agent and this says 92, and she said, there's openings that in living color. There's always opening today in living color because Kena was demanding and he was hard to work for, but it was a great job. And so we went in and pitched, and I think it was kind of a conveyor belt of new writers coming in there all the time. And we actually managed to stick for the final two years of the show and not get fired, which is a very small club for people who've worked for Keenan, I think.Michael Jamin:And so you put together a sketch packet. How did you even know what to do? I wouldn't know what to do to get hired in a sketch show.Bill Martin:It was write a couple of sketches for existing characters and write a couple of sketches that are new ideas or commercial parodies or something likeMichael Jamin:That. And did any of those ever make it to air?Bill Martin:No, but I think because of how anal my partner Mike Schiff is what we came in with were very thoroughly thought out ideas. I think that's what must have impressed Keenan, was that we didn't come in pulling stuff out of our ass. We were prepared.Michael Jamin:It was such an amazing show. And then you went to she tv, which is interesting. That show was produced. I don't know if it's any interesting for anyone other than me and you, but it was produced by Tamara Rawitz who gave me my first Yes, sheBill Martin:And Tamara was also the producer of In Living Color, where she wentMichael Jamin:There. Oh, I guess I did know that. And she, TV was another sketch show, but it didn't last very long.Bill Martin:Yep. No, I don't even know if they aired all the episodes. It was a summer replacement show when that was still a thing, and it was produced by George Slaughter of Laughin Fame and it felt Laughin vintage even in the mid nineties. It felt a little like a good old fashioned throwback variety show.Michael Jamin:Interesting. Because she went on to produce the Mike and Maddie show, and so she hired me on that and then she jumped ship. I thought she was going to be a big break in, but alright. And then Third Rock on the Sun. I should make it clear we've never even worked together, but you're one of these people. I always felt like one of these days we're going to work together and just never happened. ButBill Martin:Yes. And we also have the Alschuler Krinsky Bridge between us. That's right. Weirdly, they're some of my oldest friends and I've never worked with them either.Michael Jamin:Oh, I didn't know thatBill Martin:Either it's inevitable or we're like the opposite ends of a magnet that can never work together.Michael Jamin:Yeah, right, right.Bill Martin:We'll find out.Michael Jamin:But also, yeah, Abramson Thompson, we worked with him for many years and we great guy. But alright, so then Third Rock from the Sun, another great show. Tell me a little about your experience on that.Bill Martin:Well, those days there were sketch writers and there were sitcom writers and we were sketch guys and we'd written lots of spec sitcoms. We couldn't get a job. We kept working on sketch shows and we had, after she tv, we actually did a House of Buggin in New York, the John Zamo.Michael Jamin:Right. He's great.Bill Martin:That was a blast. It was fun to work in New York, although our producer had to take a brown bag full of cash to some guy in Brooklyn so that we were allowed to film there. So we're kind of in Sketch jail. But Bonnie and Terry Turner, who created she TV then created Third Rock in the Sun. And because they'd come from Saturday Night Live and they'd written movies, they'd kind of done a lot of different things. They didn't have those expectations that you hire, sketch people for sketches and sitcom people for sitcom. So we had a great experience with them on ctv. So we were some of the first people they thought of for Third Rock. So they helped us break out of the sketch jail.Michael Jamin:And did it feel like that? Why does it feel like a sketch jail? It seems fun to me. IBill Martin:Don't know. I think it's just that it took such a specific skillset to just crank out, joke, joke, joke, parody, parody, parody. I think it was just, it may not have been a bad thing. I think it was just because there weren't a lot of people who'd had a track record with it that they were desperate to find you. Yeah, I don't really know. It wasn't fair though.Michael Jamin:I'mBill Martin:Never going back to sketch jail.Michael Jamin:Right. So you don't want to do that ever again. You don't want to write sketches again.Bill Martin:Well, I guess there aren't really any sketch shows left. The sketch shows now I think you should leave is the greatest thing I've ever seen in my life, but it doesn't need me.Michael Jamin:But you don't have, in other words, that craving, we've never done it. I was like, well, I wonder what that been like. ButBill Martin:Yeah, sometimes the idea for a fun parody, it's still hits you every so often and there's just no place for parity other than that. So yeah, I do find myself saying, oh, that's a good idea. I hope Saturday Night Live does thatMichael Jamin:BecauseBill Martin:That's kind of the last game in town,Michael Jamin:But it's a whole new skillset that you had to learn. I mean, what was that jump like to go into scripted narrative to television?Bill Martin:Actually, it was pretty easy just because that's what we set out to do when I met Mike in film school in New York, and we were just cheers fanatics. And so we had written seven or eight sitcom specs before we got that job at a leaving color. So it was all we wanted to do it just that Keller was a job we could get.Michael Jamin:Right.Bill Martin:Interesting.Michael Jamin:We worked with the Stein Kelner who ran Cheers a couple of years. Oh yeah. To me that was so exciting to be, I don't know, because I love Cheers. Cheers was everything. That's why I wanted to be a sit car writer. It was so exciting to be able work. By the way,Bill Martin:Our cheer spec, the plot of it was was a John Henry man versus Machine Cliff Klavin racing a fax machine. That's how long ago it was. SoMichael Jamin:One of the wordsBill Martin:That was a legit idea.Michael Jamin:So he would deliver a letter faster than a fax machine could.Bill Martin:He claimed he could beat a faxMichael Jamin:Machine. That's funny.Bill Martin:The fax machine still took 18 seconds, but it was faster than Cliff.Michael Jamin:That's pretty funny. I like that idea. Oh, well. So then tell me your career. Honestly, you've so many shows way more than we have, so, so then you just jump after Third Rock. How many seasons were you there? You were four Seasons?Bill Martin:Five.Michael Jamin:Five until the end.Bill Martin:Yeah, halfway through our fifth season we left to create Grounded for Life, but it was all at the Car Seat Warner Company, so we didn't really say goodbye. We just moved one building over.Michael Jamin:Now it's so interesting because what was creating that life? Because back then, back then you might leave a hit show to create your own show. I'm not sure you'dBill Martin:Do that to Yeah, no, I think And we didn't know better. And because it was all part of Cari Warner, the risks were low. If it had failed, we could've gone back to Third Rock. I assumeMaybe It felt like we had a net, at least we weren't jumping ship completely. But because at that point, Cy Werner had five or six shows on networks. They owned network comedy, and we thought, and we pitched the show and it sold that, oh, this is easy. You just have an idea. And then Ly Warner puts it on tv. It's great. We were batting a thousand and in very short order, we were batting a hundred and then batting 50. And we realized we had a very skewed idea about how easy the business was at that point.Michael Jamin:And how did you come up with that idea? Walk me through the whole process of,Bill Martin:Well, Mike Schiff, my partner is a bit of a jerk. He's a curmudgeon, he's a grumpy guy, and he was itching to do something different. He didn't want to just do a multicam that hit all the same notes we'd already been hitting for a while. And we went out for lunch one day with our friend Chris Kelly, who ended up writing on the show, and Chris told us a story about taking his daughter to the CAMA dome and having to wait outside the ladies room down those stairs. And it turned into a really horrible, awkward situation. And the story was just hilarious. And we came back from lunch and Mike said, why can't we make a show? That's as much fun as hearing someone tell a great story. And that's kind of the genesis of Third Rock, which was, it was a hybrid back before, the word hybrid was kind of thrown around, but it was a show where you started in the middle, something had happened and someone would say, what's going on here? How did this happen? And you'd go back and tell the story in single Cam. And so it's just a way to make stories more fun to tell, and much, much harder to produce. It was a nightmare because we'd shoot three days of single cam and then two days for the audience. So everybody you worked on, it was gratified by it, but it was hell.Michael Jamin:But did you think about that when you came up with it? Because that would've been on my mind, do I really want to produce this show?Bill Martin:At the time, we thought it was going to be…

Full show notes at the publisher

096 - June Webinar Q&A Aug 30, 2023

Show notes

In June, I hosted a webinar called "The Truth About Screenwriting Contests and Pitch Fests" where I shared my thoughts on some of these writing contests and the potential scams out there, as well as some bad advice I always hear. This episode addresses questions you asked in our Q&A session that we didn't have time to answer. There's lots of great info here, make sure you watch.SHOW NOTESFree Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlistAUTOGENERATED TRANSCRIPTSMichael Jamin:When I'm in a writer's room all the time, we don't use these words that everyone seems to have learned on the internet. That's why when you said 15 minutes, 15 minute structure, what? It is unfamiliar to me because I've, in my 27 years, we don't talk like that. So when I teach you how we talk, it's like it's not as complicated as people wanted. When you learn from somebody, screenwriting, just find out, are they qualified to teach you? Forget. I don't care if they wrote a book. No, no. What shows have they written on? Hey everyone, it's Michael Jamin. Welcome back to another episode of Screenwriters Need to Hear this. I'm here with Phil Hudson. Welcome Phil.Phil Hudson:What up?Michael Jamin:What up? We're doing another q and a. So once a month I do a live webinar. You're all invited to go to be invited. Go to michael jamon.com/webinar. The one in June. The topic was, we always do a different topic, but the one in June was the Truth about contests, screenwriting Contests, and Pitch Fests. And afterwards I do a q and a and we try to get to as many questions as we can when we run out of time, and I can't answer all of them while Phil has kept a file. And now we're going to answer all those questions for you. So hopefully this will be very illuminating. Yeah, may seem a little random, but whatever. It's, it's knowledge. Alright, Phil. Yeah, so hit me with a question.Phil Hudson:Yeah, absolutely. Just again, for decorum purposes I guess, or flow, we took all the questions. If we don't answer your question here, it's probably addressed somewhere else. So we have previous q and a question, podcast episodes. You take questions all the time on your social media there. There's stuff everywhere. So if your question hasn't been answered, most likely it's been answered somewhere else. We've already answered. Your YouTube is actually a great place to go for our content. Yeah, subscribeMichael Jamin:To Michael Jamon,Phil Hudson:Writer.Michael Jamin:Yeah, Michael Jamen, writer on YouTube as well as Instagram and TikTokPhil Hudson:And Facebook. And you can go to Michael's site as well. And I believe in the footer there's a list of all your social media and they can click on that stuff. So yeah, I've broken your questions out into multiple sections by topic and I've had to fold some questions together because there were just a ton of questions in this podcast, in this webinar. So, okay. This first section is called Breaking In related to the Truth about Screenwriting contests and Pitch Fest. And Michael, you are not one to mince words regarding all of these hacks and sheets to get into the industry. And I think it's something a lot of people need to hear and hopefully have, are going to hear from you today.Michael Jamin:By the way, I want to say, I'm sorry, Phil, but the webinars are always free and if you miss it, we send you a free replay, which is good for 24 hours. And then if you miss that, you can purchase it on my website for a small fee@michaeljamin.com slash shop. So sorry if you missed it, but you had to wax at it for free. Okay.Phil Hudson:Yeah. And that's on demand and permanent. It's not, you watch it once and it goes away or it, it's like you get it and it's chock full of good information.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Phil Hudson:Awesome. So Natalie Faler, how do you even find a person to pitch your screenplay to? So since these contests don't help your career get started, how do you get your career started? How do you come become qualified to get hired or work in any of these production companies?Michael Jamin:So what you need to have, you look at your script as a writing sample. You can write a movie, tell whatever you want, a TV show, whatever it is. Everyone's get so focused on, well, how do I need a Bible? Do I need episode three and four and season 10? No, no. You just need one damn good script that will impress people. That's all. Just one and one is hard enough. So write your script. And then when you give it to somebody, if it's good, someone in the industry, they'll pass it along. If it's really good, if it's mediocre, they're not, if it's okay or bad, they're not going to pass it along. You don't get a chance to sell your TV show if it's bad. No, you have to write a great script. What's in your hands? So everyone just assumes that and they assume, well, I already have a good script. Okay, but does anyone else agree with you? Have you given to anyone who agrees with you that it's a great script because it's not up to you. They have to agree with you. They have to say, yeah, it's a great script and then doors will open. But first things first, learn how to writePhil Hudson:And that actually jumps us down, you address is can we, Drake ask typically how many episodes do you pitchMichael Jamin:One you first go for, you don't do any, you pi, you give one script. How are you going to pitch an episode? How are you going to pitch a show if you can't even get the meeting to pitch a show? And you can't get the meeting until someone reads a script of yours and says, this is a really good script sample. It's a work, it's a writing sample. That's it. It's not about selling anything. It's about impressing people with your ability to write. It's okay if you're not going to sell it, tell you how many scripts I've written the intention even to sell it. It was just to impress people.Phil Hudson:Yeah. The last part of this question is how do you become qualified to get hired or work in any of these production companies as an avenue of working your way up? And the answer is you start at the bottom.Michael Jamin:Yeah, you start at the bottom way at the bottom where you're not even thinking about that. You're thinking, well, how can I become qualified to get coffee for the person who works here? And then you, that's how you start making contacts. That's how you start working your way up. So everyone wants to start at the top. My recommendation is start at the bottom.Phil Hudson:Beautiful. Liz Romantic besides attempting to get representation from an agent, what's another way to get my screenplay seen by a producer?Michael Jamin:Oh, well again, working Do a fill does works at a production company versus a pa, then I got promoted to associate producer. That's how you do it. That's, that's another way to do it ano, is to start at the bottom. Start making your connections in Hollywood. Another way to do it is to, you can start your own channel on social media where you're putting out amazing, you're shooting and making your own amazing content and I'm, I'm talking about scripted, whatever it is you want to do as a scripted, start doing that. Start impressing people with your ability to write and amazing things will happen. But I was going to do a whole webinar on that as well. I know I'm not, I'm giving short shrift to that answer, but I'll explain in detail in future webinars.Phil Hudson:Yeah. Awesome. Rob Stagin Borg, they say Hollywood Ism All is always looking for new talent, but are they really?Michael Jamin:Yeah, they're looking to exploit you. And like I said, you want to be exploited. Why not? They're looking for someone to make them rich. Everyone is looking for someone to make them rich. And if you have the ability to make them rich, if they look at you and they see dollar signs in your face, you're in, you're in. Yeah. But the problem is no one wants to do that. They want to beg, come on, can. No one wants to, no one's interested in helping your career. They want to help their own career. And the way they help their own career is by finding someone who's this, who's got a ton of talent that they can exploit in a good way, but exploit.Phil Hudson:Yeah. Yeah. All right. Our buddy, the Jovan shares back, and this question is in reference to one of the topics of the webinar, which is available now for people to buy. If you want to go watch it, it's michael jam.com/shop. But this is in relation to the topic of what's the reality and value of competitions and screenwriting contests and all this stuff. And you're basically saying not a lot and most of 'em are not beneficial.Michael Jamin:Yeah. You can go listen to the webinar we talk about which ones I think are the best ones and the biggest ones. But the small ones, the little ones, it's only making them rich, not you rich. Yeah.Phil Hudson:So with that context, does this advice also go for short story competitions?Michael Jamin:I don't really know. I really don't know. I'm not in that world. I'm a TV writer.Phil Hudson:Yeah. And that might be short film contests and things, but there's the occasional short film that gets moved. Like the Poon Dynamite, right? Was it paca? I don't know. It was a short that was put into Sundance and then it got bought and then it got flipped into a feature. That'sMichael Jamin:Very, but they said short story though. This person said short story. Correct.Phil Hudson:In the context of screenwriting. Okay. I think it's really about short films because you talk you storyMichael Jamin:If, yeah, I mean if you can make something and a respective, especially a film festival, that's a little different. If you make something at a film festival that gets people's attention. But that's what I'm yelling it all along you. You've already made it. You've already made it and it's already great. SoPhil Hudson:Yeah, you've done the work. You're not hoping someone else will give you the in. Yeah. Alright. Sadie Wise heart, what are avenues with getting into the industry with just an associate degree? I keep hearing being a PA is great, but are there also other avenues? Michael, I've never once in my life been asked if I have an associate's degree. That's something people talk about, but I,Michael Jamin:No one cares. Phil, I want to know, can you get the coffee? Can you pick up lunch? Yeah. Do you know how to use the coffee machine? That's what I want to know. I don't need to see your diploma.Phil Hudson:This will be fun. So this is my diploma cover. I was handed when I walked across my stage at my college graduation. It's empty, right? There's no diploma in here. Why? My school went defunct, my school closed.Michael Jamin:They went out of business.Phil Hudson:There's no, there's no diploma. Did I earn it? Yep. Do I have the honors? Yep. Do I have photos of me? Did my family come? Yep. There's no diploma in there. If someone wanted to see my diploma, I couldn't even show it to them. That's how little it matters in the industry. Yeah. Can you do the job?Michael Jamin:But this person wants to know, are there other avenues other than pa? I mean, if you want to break into the business, you're going to have to start at the bottom. I'm you, I'm sorry. You don't get to become an executive producer unless you've, you know, got to start at the bottom.Phil Hudson:Yeah, yeah,Michael Jamin:Absolutely. But again, I have a i'll, I'll probably do a webinar coming up where I'll talk about things, other avenues to break into the business if you absolutely cannot move to LA and you insist on not starting at the bottom, what else can you do? It's going to be a harder, but there are things you can do, but it'll be harder.Phil Hudson:Yeah. Ah, we met a bunch of people are going to sign up for that one. That sounds like, that sounds like a lot of the questions we get. Okay, great. Rob Stagin Borg, again with so many services out there designed to help in Arian quotes, new riders. How can a new rider tell what is legit and what is this scam? A scam?Michael Jamin:I would assume everything's a scam. I thinkPhil Hudson:That's the answer.Michael Jamin:I mean, I don't know. I don't know what kind of service that they're talking about. If it's a coverage service, you're going to be read. The person reading your coverage is probably not qualified. They're no more qualified than you are unless you were able to find a writer, a working writer, a successful working writer with credits that you've seen on I M D B on shows. And those people are out there that have the time to help charge people to read, to give notes or whatever. That's your due diligence. You got to find them. But wouldn't, a service is different like a service is what are you going to get? You're going to get a minimum wage paying person reading your job. But if you can find a working writer to do that, and because of the internet, you probably can then expect to pay. You expect to pay for someone's expertise. They've earned it and you're going to have to pay more for it. Sorry. That's just how it goes. So if you want to pay $50, you're going to get $50 worth. If you want to pay $400, you'll probably get $400 worth.Phil Hudson:And you got your start taking lessons from a former writer who was retired and doing that, right?Michael Jamin:Yeah. Yeah. But that's a little different. But yeah, I, I wanted to learn from people who had the job that I had, who I wanted rather the job that I wanted getting charged.Phil Hudson:Dominique Davenport. Hey Michael and Phil, what's up Dominique? Hey, I'm a PA from Atlanta. I'm just now getting my footing in the industry. What steps should I be taking starting out?Michael Jamin:Good for you. You're already got your foot in the door. Maintain those relationships that you have with everyone who works there, from the producer to the associate producer to the coordinator. Just maintain those relationships and prove that you're a hard worker. That you'll go above and beyond because when they get their next job, they will bring you along with them. They don't want to want to train someone from scratch. So my advice to you is to be nice to whoever you've worked for as a pa, the coordinator, all the way up to the producer, the executive producer, show them that you're a hard worker. Show them that you hustle, that you go above and beyond because when they go to their next job, they're going to want to take you with them. Why is that? Because they don't want to hire someone brand new and have to break them in. And maybe that person doesn't have your work ethic, so it's just easier for them to work with the same people and promote those people. So you're, you've got your foot in the door. All you got to do now is continue doing more of the same, which is continue impressing people with how hard you work. Don't say no to anything. Get there early, leave late. Good for you. You're in, you're in. So just work your butt off and you'll do great.Phil Hudson:Yeah. Hannah Chartier, who's the writer…

Full show notes at the publisher

095 - Vanity Fair Editor Mike Sacks Aug 23, 2023

Show notes

On this week's episode Editor/Author Mike Sacks (Vanity Fair) discusses his career path, the importance of not asking for permission with your writing, as well as how he prepares for some of the artists he interviews.SHOW NOTESMike Sacks Website: https://www.mikesacks.com/Mike Sacks on Instagram: mikebsacksMike Sacks on Twitter: https://twitter.com/michaelbsacksAUTOGENERATED TRANSCRIPTMike Sacks:It's never been any time in publishing history where you could do this, where you could put out a book that looks professionally done. In the past, you'd have to buy 5,000 copies of your book, and they set Moldering in the basement. Yeah. Now it's a purchase. It's a paper purchase, so if someone wants it, they'll pay for it. Then it's published and it's not published until then.Michael Jamin:You're listening to Screenwriters. Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin.Hey everyone, it's Michael Jamin. Welcome back to another Screenwriters. Need to hear this. We've got a surprise twist for you today. I've done over 90 episodes and today we're taking a turn to the world of high literature and publishing something I know very little about. And I'm very pleased to welcome my next guest, Mr. Mike Sacks, and he comes from the Mike. Welcome. Let me give you a proper introduction. I'm not done with you yet, before I let you say something. So Mike is, aside from being an editor at Vanity Fair, he's written a number of books, I don't know, 11 or 12 something. A lot of books. He's gotten his work in Vanity Fair, Esquire, gq, the New Yorker, time, New York Times, Washington Post MCs, Sweeney's, radar Radar. Funny or Die. He was Die Mad New York Observer, premier Believer, vice Max. It goes on and on. So this guy's from the world of literature. So thank you so much, Mike, for being on this show. I want to learn all about your experiences.Mike Sacks:Well, I'm from the world of literature, meaning I have no money and plenty of time. So this is nothing else to do,Michael Jamin:But why? Okay, but why was it that I want to talk about your books and all that, but okay, so what attracted you to the world of literature though?Mike Sacks:My biggest dream was to get into tv. I mean, I wanted to write for Letterman. I wanted to write for SS n l, but I didn't know how to do it. I mean, I didn't know any writers. I didn't know anyone who knew any writers, very mysterious world. So what I thought at that time was that I would write for the written page and then be discovered like I would from AA or AA to be pulled up to the majors. It doesn't work like that. I didn't know it at the time, but over having done that for so many years, I just came to actually prefer that, I guess, to any other medium. I've done a little bit of TV and a little radio, and I do a podcast in the end. You know what, I came to love? I love the control. I love the fact that there's no one over my shoulder telling me what to do, how to do it, and I think if I were at 2021 to have gotten a job on Letterman or S N l, I would've been in heaven. I think now it sounds like hell, and I don't think I would've last would last a week.Michael Jamin:But tell me when you say no, no, you get to do what you want of that. Is that entirely accurate when you're are working with a publisher or even a magazine?Mike Sacks:Not always, especially when it comes to humor, which is one of the reasons I stopped humor for magazines. I mean, what I found is that most editors view themselves as humor writers in disguise, and if they hadn't have to have a job, they would be famous humor writers. So a lot of them consider themselves humor genius as very high humor iq. So I would get a lot of rewrites based on that and also based off of, I was writing a lot of stories and pieces based off of current news. So that goes bad very quickly. So I prefer now, what I've been doing now is self-publishing and putting out evergreen pieces where meaning it's not tethered to any sort of current news. So when I look back at some of the GQ pieces, the Esquire pieces written in 2008, 2012, to whatever it is, it just seems very dated. The humor that I love is always tethered to character, and it is not dated. I mean, even going back to, or even I guess last century, Charlie Chaplin, Woody Allen, Albert Brooks, Steve Martin's, all character based, and that to me is what interests me now, and I wanted to bring that to the written page rather than have something that is say, Trump's tweets from the Middle Ages or some shit that it's not going to last.Michael Jamin:But you've been on both sides of this because you are an editor at Vanity Fair. So you obviously, you're rewriting, you're telling people you know what, what's going to play in this magazine? But you're also saying, and then human magazines, that you also getting 'em on the other side, I mean, right.Mike Sacks:And I think I have that advantage of knowing how to deal with editors, knowing what not to say, not to drive them crazy, and if they do have a suggestion to, usually it's not worth fighting over. But my job, inventing affairs, is not to edit humor, it's to edit hard news, preferably hard news, rather than puff piecesMichael Jamin:Especially. Yeah. How did you get that at Vanity Fair? Well, I was How did, go ahead. I'm sorry. Go ahead. Yeah, I have anotherMike Sacks:Question. Yeah, yeah. It was one of those things that you just kind of stumble into, and I was New Orleans. I was living in New Orleans, working in retail. Then I moved back to Maryland working in retail and got my first editing job in dc, which is a very DC type of job. I was editing a newsletter for an association that provided shareholder information to large institutional investors. So DC has a million associations, a million groups, they all need editors for their newsletters. So I got this first job. From there, I got a job working nights and weekends as an editor at the Knight Ritter Wire Corp, which used to put out articles sent around the world. And then from there, the Washington Post, and then from there, vanity Fair. So it was just sort of stumbling into one job after another, where at the time, what I really wanted to do was go to California, go to New York and write humor.It just never really seemed to work out that way. I just kept getting these jobs, and on the side, what I would do on my own time, I would write for Mad and National Lampoon and then later New Yorker. So it was just one of those things. Now, if I had to do it over again, I probably would've gone straight out to California or to straight to New York, rather than live in New Orleans and Maryland for a while. But you know, do what you do. And I didn't have the balls to do it. I didn't know anyone. I didn't have anyone to tell me, Hey, you can do this. Right. To me, it seemed very mysterious, like, Hey, how do you go to the moon? I have no fucking idea. Yeah, but itMichael Jamin:Was, it was mysterious. But you still figured it out on this other, that's the thing. You didn't know how to do it, but you did know how to do it for this other thing over here.Mike Sacks:Well, that's the thing. I mean, that's the irony is that you stumble into what you end up want to be doing, and I didn't, if I had known graduating that I would've been the circuitous route, I probably would've said, screw it. I don't want to spend seven years doing nothing, working in retail and then trying to get into magazines. But it just ended up working to my benefit where I think writing for the written page is really the best fit for me, more so than writing for TV or the movies. Not to say that I wouldn't love to have a script produced and this and that, but I do. I think I've worked alone for so many years. I wouldn't have the patience to work with producers and that timeframe. I like to put it work out and keep moving down the road. I don't like to stumble and sort of stagnate with the same piece.I've met writers who three years later will meet again working on just trying to pitch this same project. We didn't go into writing for that. I got into writing. I loved it, and I loved to write what I wanted to write. And I see too many writers out there, even in the comedy business who are miserable. And I always do try to remember, this is why I got into comedying and into writing, is because I used to have fun with my friends, and I used to go home and write and enjoy myself. And if I ever lose that, it's not something that I would want to necessarily live with. So what I do have now is a two-track system where I do make a living as an editor, and then on the side I am able to write what I want, how I write, how I want to write it, and I don't have to put out material that is not something that is something that I want to put out. Everything I put out is what I want to put out.Michael Jamin:But how many hours a day do you devote to your side writing projectsMike Sacks:Today?Michael Jamin:Well, on an average day, how much do you do on the side?Mike Sacks:I'd say at least six hours a day. I mean, I get up early,Michael Jamin:You six hours a day on your non-paying. In other words, you're not, you're non vanity. Fair job, you'reMike Sacks:Yes. And that's always been the case. I mean, there's no other way to put out material, whether it's articles or books, then to just simply do it. And it did take me giving up a lot of TV watching and a lot of drinking, which I had been doing, and to sit down and make this my O C D compulsion where I have to do this every day, and if I don't do it every day, I'm miserable. I'm just an absolute best. AndMichael Jamin:You've been both traditionally published and indie published as you're talking about, and why don't you talk a little bit, but the differences in why one appeals more to you than the other?Mike Sacks:Well, that's a great question. Now, I think there's different elements to self-publishing versus traditional publishing. If you have the opportunity to be a MCs or the New Yorker, certainly take it. I think when it comes to self-publishing, what I prefer is self-publishing books. Now, I published about four or five traditional published books when I first started, and what I ended up finding out was in the end, can, if you are competent as an editor and a writer, and if you can find a good designer, you can do all this on your own. And there's a lot of advantages to that. The main advantage is in humor. Most producers, most agents, most publishers do not have our humor sensibility. I'd say their humor sensibility lies more in the hit radio market than maybe the alternative market, which I think most writers are into. So first of all, it's going to be very, very difficult to sell the idea that you want to an agent, and that's the first step, which can take years.Yes. I know a lot of people who reach out to agents with their humor ideas, and before they know it, it becomes something else entirely, whether it's now geared towards children, whether it's a rom-com or whether it's this or that or ya novel, and then they're stuck with something that after a year doesn't sell anyway, so they wasted a year on a project that they're not happy with. I don't think you need an agent now for books. In fact, when I say books, I mean comedy books. This is very specific. If you want to put out a comedy book that's like, or similar to the Woody Allen books, you grew up reading to the National Lampoon books, you grew up reading to Mark Lehner, to anyone, Simon Rich that you grew up reading, that is not going to happen anymore. One and two, it's not necessary for it to happen. Any advantage that you have in the mainstream market can be reproduced on your own end much better.Michael Jamin:Well, let's talk about that because you can't get into, or it would be a lot harder to get your book into Barnes and Nobles, right? Well,Mike Sacks:Here's the thing too. Yeah. Everyone dreams about having their book in Barnes and Noble or an airport bookstore. It doesn't fucking make a difference anymore. So you have one copy of your book in the humor section, which is next to the restrooms. I mean, how many people are going to be stumbling by it anyway? It's not going to be on the front table. Right, okay. It's just not going to be. So when it comes to getting a book, even chosen by an agent, skip the two, three year long process and put it out yourself because an agent typically doesn't even read the book. And if they do read the book, they don't typically understand the book. What they're going to get is not much money anyway. Comedy doesn't bring in much money, so they get you a 3000, $4,000 advance. So that's something you can reap on your own without getting that advance, by putting it out yourself and having a hundred percent or not a hundred percent, maybe 60% of the profit coming back to you. So what I have done and what I recommend people to do at this point, this has never been, it's never been any time in publishing history where you could do this, where you could put out a book that looks professionally done in the past, you'd have to buy 5,000 copies of your book, and they set moldering in the basement. Now it's a purchase, a pay per purchase. So if someone wants it, they'll pay for it. Then it's published and it's not published until then. Do you and the pro,Michael Jamin:But do you get, this is, I'm getting a little off topic, but do you order a handful just so you have and send out with when people want to sign copies? I,Mike Sacks:Well, yes, it, it's the very specific process that I had that I have, which is that you as well as writing it, putting it out yourself, designing it yourself, you have to market it yourself. And I don't know if you want to get into that now later. Yeah, yeah,Michael Jamin:Let's talk about that. Okay.Mike Sacks:Yeah. Okay. So I have a very specific process, and I've been on the other end of this because I've been as a receiver of these books at Vanity Fair. And we would get hundreds of books per week from publishers. And what publishers would do was they would send out willy nilly all these advanced review copies arcs, which would end up just being in the free pile at work, 99% of which is never even looked at, 99% of which isn't even right for the magazine. So they would send out these books to me at Vanity Fair, and it would be totally inappropriate for the magazine. We don't do poetry. We don't do humor, we don't do sci-fi, so why are you sending me the books Now, the disadvantage of that to the writers, they end up in the free pile in a magazine like ours, and then typically the editorial assistants will then sell these books to the strand or on line.So you have these advanced review copies where no money is going to the author and they're getting these review copies before anyone else. So what I've tried to do with my own marketing is I'll order say 50 books and I'll pay for those myself. It's cheaper when you're ordering your own book. It's cheaper than it would be if you're paying for it otherwise. And then I send it out to a very specific group. It's more like surgical precision rather than going wide. And that group consists of comedians and actors and people who, with one mention on their Instagram can do more than a hundred advertisements can in the back of any magazine be beyond that. To get even more specific, what I'll do is I'll w…

Full show notes at the publisher

094 - TV Host Michael Burger Aug 16, 2023

Show notes

On this week's episode, television veteran Michael Burger (Family Feud, Price is Right, Mike and Maty, and many many more) talks about his showbiz career. He looks back on memories from working on cruise ships as well as being able to work with some of his idols.SHOW NOTESMichael Burger's IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0121221/Michael Burger's Website: https://www.michaelburger.com/Free Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlistAUTOGENERATED TRANSCRIPTSMichael Jamin:So when you shoot a multi-camera sitcom the audience, they bring in an audience and it could take, I dunno, it could easily take five hours to shoot a half hour of television.Michael Burger:22 minutes. Five and a half. Yeah. Five hours to shoot. 22.Michael Jamin:And so what's the audience doing while they're resetting the scenes or the actors are changing?Michael Burger:Well, I've got a lot of stories. Some. I had a guy die once. What? And I just thought he was taking a nap. Yeah. I kept looking up going, God, I don't, A comic wants everybody engaged. Right? And he's just, and at the end, he's not leaving every, the bus is gone and they card him out and he died on the way to the hospital. I guess they revived him, then he died.Michael Jamin:You're listening to Screenwriters. Need to hear this with Michael. Hey everyone, welcome back to Screenwriters. Need to hear this. I'm Michael. I got a cool guest today. So as many of you know, my very first comedy writing job in Hollywood, I was a joke writer on a morning TV show on a b C called the Mike and Maddie Show. And my next guest is Michael Berger, the host of Mike and Mad Mike, thank you so much for joining me here. A areMichael Burger:You nice to see and reconnect with you again? It's been a fewMichael Jamin:And you are this, I know you're not quite a screenwriter, but I think have a lot to, I don't know, just a lot to add to the conversation because you're a professional talk show host and you posted so much. I'm going to blow through some of your credits real fast just so people, but don'tMichael Burger:Blow through 'em. I want you to land on 'em and marinate on 'em for a while.Michael Jamin:Let's linger on them unnecessarily for a long time. So obviously Mike and Maddie, but the Home and Family Feud, the live version as well as the Price is right, the live version, thousand Dollars Pyramid Match Game, iron Chef Personals, the Late Night Dating Show Straight to the Heart, not to mention your long history as a standup comedian on cruise ships, and then later doing warmup. I want for audiences for sitcom audiences, which I know you've, we've been on any of the same shows, which is, that's a whole nother level of comedy. I want to talk about that. But first I want to talk about where you began. It was, how did you become a comedian for cruise ships?Michael Burger:Well, a lot of these entries into showbiz come in through the side door. And this was certainly the case. I was a big fan of Steve Martin and back in the late seventies, there was a contest where they were looking for a Steve Martin lookalike and the payoff, the winner got a spot on the Tonight Show with Carson. So I figured this is my entry in, so I figured that I win this contest and I get my own show. Well,Michael Jamin:And you didMichael Burger:Well. You had to submit a cassette tape, audio cassette tape of you doing Steve Martin. No video cameras just a cassette. And they wanted that in theory, in front of a live audience while I had, I hadn't done any standup. There's no live audience, but my audience in the day was my classroom. So I went back to my high school and said, can I borrow the classroom and just do Steve Martin's material and I'll take my best cut from that. So I went to five teachers. I did five minute sets, and I submitted that tape with the best of the five to the radio station who said, yeah, great. Come on up to the tower records parking lot on Sunset, where there's 25 of us dressed like Steve Martin doing. You're a wild and crazy guy. I win that and go to San Francisco and I meet the western Halfie of the United States at the boarding house, and I win that. And the finals are at the Comedy store with the entire country represented. I'm one of six. Steve Martin is there, Carl Reiner is there. And the winner, the payoff is the Tonight Show spot. And I do, my thing and my twist on it was I came out white suit arrow through the head, no pants with boxers that said a B, C news brief.So I figured I'd add my joke and the guy I was up against that I thought was my competition, played banjo so well and looked like Steve. I thought, there's no way. Right. He does his bit, I do my bit. It's a tie between me and this guy from Nashville that looked like Steve. Steve Martin comes on stage and he's holding our wrists like a ref in a boxing match. And he holds up the other guy's hand. Okay, that guy wins. I lose, three months later I'm watching The Tonight Show and Johnny goes, oh, we have a guest tonight. And Steve Martin comes out and he's out for about 30 seconds and you realize it's not Steve. The real Steve comes out bound and gagged yelling, this guy's an imposter. That guy goes away. We never hear from him again. And that was my first taste at showbiz.Michael Jamin:And you were like, what? 20 something?Michael Burger:Yeah. Yeah. Maybe I was 27, 28. But what would you, somebody saw that and said, Hey, can you do that on a cruise ship? Can you do standup on a ship?Michael Jamin:But wait, what would've you done if you had won this? Because then you would've been on the Tonight Show, but you didn't have an act.Michael Burger:Well, I would do kind of what that kid did. The whole bit was to pay Steve Martin's movie off The Jerk that was coming out. And it was just a sight gag, but I certainly would've come up with something. And then, so what I wound up doing initially after that, and this is in the height of all the singing comedy telegrams, remember back in the day, dancing bears and roller skates? Yeah. So I did a Steve Martin lookalike Soundalike Comedy Telegram where Michael would hire me to make fun of somebody, and I would get all the information and I would go wherever they are, a bank, an office. I actually stopped a wedding once as Steve Martin air through the head white suit, hold on, I don't think this is right. And do a little Steve Martin thing. And there was a guy in the audience at a restaurant who came over after I just did this Rickles kind of riff. And he goes, that's very funny. Can you do ships? And I said, sure. And that's how I got on a cruise ship. And then I'd come on as Steve, and then I'd do my whole act after that, which I developed over time.Michael Jamin:But your act was basically kind of making fun of Steve, or was it all playingMichael Burger:Well, no, you quickly. No, I had some comedy ideas, but what I realized as soon as I got on the ship, 70% of the material comes from being on the ship. Right. I dunno if you've ever worked ships, but No. Oh, there's so much material. It's such a ripe group. And thenMichael Jamin:It's so interesting, you never even did the comedy clubs. You really came up your own way.Michael Burger:I really did. I did a few because of that little bit of notoriety, but the cruise ships were a better paying gig. You got to see the world and you really felt like you were in the business. You had a band behind you generally. There was an opening act. The only downside was if you didn't do well, you'd have to see these people for the next three days, four days, seven days.Michael Jamin:But howMichael Burger:Many I loved it.Michael Jamin:How many shows would you do on a, so you were like, let's say it was a seven day tour. How many shows would you do?Michael Burger:Two.Michael Jamin:That's it really?Michael Burger:Yeah. Yeah. I would do the three and four day cruises down to Ensenada and back. And so I would do welcome aboard show, I would be the headliner. I'd come out and do my hour, and then they said, you can do anything you want on Sunday night. So I'd go in the back lounge and then just try stuff. And that's really where you kind of learned what's funny, what's not. So I got to do, my God, for anybody listening that remembers the Catskills in those old days where you just work well clubs today, you go out and work material, I could go in that back room and I would go on at midnight and the buffet would start at midnight. And my goal as a performer was if I could keep people from getting up and leaving my show to go eat again, then I realized I had some pretty good material. So I would do an hour and a half, two hours in the back room.Michael Jamin:ButMichael Burger:The moment that really, maybe this is where you're headed, that launched my career was in the middle of the cruise. They had a passenger talent show. And on one of these cruises, the cruise director came up to me and said, Hey, can you fill in and host the Passenger Talent Show? I have other things to do. And he meant that as a verb. I mean, this guy was, he was all over the ship just right,Michael Jamin:Yeah. GoingMichael Burger:After whatever moved, you know what I mean? And I said, well, what do I do? And he goes, well, these people sign up throughout the week and then we turn 'em loose at midnight and they do whatever they do. Think America's Got Talent. And I said, well, what would you like me? Wait, introduce 'em, put a little show together, go at 11 o'clock at night, get with the piano player and you figure out maybe an order. I said, well, okay. It sounds like fun. So I did that. And I'm telling you, Michael, I had more fun doing that than any standup really. I had a chance to talk to somebody, where are you from? What do you do? And then you turn 'em loose. But because, and it's not unlike warmup where someone else is the star where someone else has the focus. You just set 'em up and turn 'em loose. Yeah. I had an 85 year old woman, get up and tap dance to the Lord's Prayer. You don't need to top that.Michael Jamin:Yeah. How do you, right.Michael Burger:I mean, I had everything. Right. So I started doing this and about at the same time, I was doing warmup for a game show. We're going to go way back now, a dance show called Dance Fever.Michael Jamin:Yes. WhichMichael Burger:Is again, these dancing shows, but way back, right.Michael Jamin:It was solid Gold and Dance Fever, those two shows. That'sMichael Burger:It. And they had three celebrity judges and they would judge the dancers. And the Cue card woman comes up to me on a commercial break and she goes, N B C is going to do a morning game show. And they want somebody new, somebody unknown, someone that no one's heard of. I said, that's me. I, I'm in the middle of the ocean. No one knows me. She goes, do you have a tape? I said, nah, I got a tape. Sure. I got a tape, I got no tape. So the very next cruise I go back on, I put 2,500 bucks on my credit card and I go buy that two piece video system where you had to buy the base unit, the head unit. And I brought that on the ship. I put it on a tripod, I put it back by the soundboard, and I pushed record and I videotaped every one of these passenger talent shows that I hosted and then cut everybody out.And it just kept my moment. My first demo tape was six minutes of me doing that. Right. So this woman at Dance Fever says, get me that tape. I'll get it to N B C. The two people in charge were Jake Talbert and Brian Franz. They were the presidents of daytime television, N B C. So she sends in the tape and I get a call, my agent and I come in, I have an agent at this point, and they go, do you know why you're here? And I said, yeah, Mary Steck was nice enough. I said, no, it's the guy at the end. I said, what do you mean the old guy? Yeah. What about him? Well, there's this charming old man that I'm introducing and playing with, and he grabs the mic out of my hand and goes, you must be saying something very funny, but I don't get it. Well, it's a huge laugh. And the N B C exec said the fact that that guy got the laugh and you let him have his moment and you didn't come back over with one more ad lib of your own tells me you got a sense of how to host. It's about making someone else shine. He said, we can teach you how to host a game show, but we can't teach you as the instinct to make someone else look better. Were youMichael Jamin:Aware of that though? I mean, we,Michael Burger:Not really. Yeah. I mean, I got better at it and I realized the sneaky joy of this is that if you get a laugh and get out of the way, put the onus back on them when you do a talk show. But when theyMichael Jamin:Said this to you, you're like, oh my God, I, I've been doing this all along and I didn't realize this. Or were you consciously doing that?Michael Burger:I think there was sort of a Midwest polite mentality, kind of how I was raised, don't interrupt, all that kind of stuff. It kind of goes part and parcel just being, I don't know, polite iss the perfect word. My dad was from Missouri, my mom was from Minnesota. We kind of raised in a polite family. I just thought that was the right thing. But I also realized that boy, you could use this to your advantage, 'em shine. And that I work at it to this day trying to be a better listener and try to be better at picking my moments. That's how it started. That's literally how my career started out at sea. AndMichael Jamin:Then so then what happened with that audition then?Michael Burger:So I got the pilot. I got the pilot for N B C Morning Talk show. My very first time on a lot is at N B C. And I'm parked six spots down from Johnny Carson. It's got a white Corvette. His license plate said 360 Guy thought that was a clever license plate all around Guy. Yeah. I'm six spots down from Carson. I just got off the boat. I am so far from showbiz. I'm walking on the set. We shoot the pilot at the same time. They're just about finished with a Tonight Show. We shot across the hall, very little security back in the eighties. I open the door and I walk in and I sit next to Gregory Peck. Colonel Michael going shelf is so easy. Yeah. He goes on, he comes out, I say, hi, Carson walks by, gives me one of these. Everybody walks out and we all go home. Kicker. The story is Pilot did not get picked up, but the production company, reg Grundy, who did all of those shows back in the day, sail of the Century and Scrabble, liked what I did and put me on retainer for a year to develop something else.Michael Jamin:But did they, and I never even asked you about Mike and Maddie did like Yeah. Did they coach you at all before you start doing this? Did they rehearse you or is it like, well, this is who we hired, let him do his thing?Michael Burger:It's a good question. In the game show world, when we were getting ready to do a game show, they would remind me that the first half of the game is fun and q and a and get some joy out of these contestants and root for 'em. And then when it shifts to the bonus round, there really needs to be a shift in tone. This money is serious money and this can change someone's life and this is not the place to go for a joke. Let's kind of shift the focus and really be there for 'em and root for 'em and console them if they lose and b…

Full show notes at the publisher

093- Writer/Producer Jack Burditt Aug 09, 2023

Show notes

This week, Emmy Winning Writer/Producer Jack Burditt (Modern Family, 30 Rock, Frasier and many, many more) discusses his career path, joining a show that is already established and working on shows with green screens.Show NotesJack Burditt on IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0120994/Jack Burditt on Twitter: https://twitter.com/jackburdittMichael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlistAutogenerated TranscriptJack Burditt:I don't know. There was something about it that I'm like, oh, this is a show I always wanted to write. This is, and it was fun. And it was like we could go bonkers at times,Michael Jamin:But you'd go bonkers. But then you'd ground it somehow.Jack Burditt:Yes, yes. You always wanted to try to ground it somewhere in there. And even if you're leading up to a bonker scene, you wanted something setting up like this is the reason why this mayhem is going to happen.Michael Jamin:You're listening to Screenwriters Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin.Hey everyone, it's Michael Jamin. Welcome back to Screenwriters. Need to hear this. Another great guest. Hats off to me because my next guest is a friend from, I've known him for many, many years and I honestly have to say this guy's writing credits our outstanding, he's, and he's, he's going to be embarrassed when I say this, but Jack, I'm, I'm here with Jack Birded and he's literally one of the most sought after comedy writers in Hollywood. And Jack, before you say a word, let me tell you everyone what you've written on this could take a long time. You got a lot of credits, so, well, most recently, he's the creator intro runner of the Santa Clauss, the Tim Allen show on Disney Plus. Where he, Santa Claus. I'm going to, I'm just going to skip many of your credits. You have too many. I'm just going to do some of what I think of my, your highlights.Modern family. He run a Mount Modern family for many years. Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt 30 Rock, which we're definitely going to talk about. That is literally one of my favorite shows of all time. And I want to know more about that Last Man Standing, which he created new adventures of old Christine. I'm with her watching Ellie, and I know I said that wrong. Watching Ellie Inside Schwartz created, he co-created Dag Just Shoot Me, which we worked on together, Inc. Frazier. Mad about you. What else did I, I'm sure, oh, the Mindy Project did I said that right? The Mindy Project. That's how you said that show.Jack Burditt:Yes, yes.Michael Jamin:I'm unfamiliar with her. And then most importantly, the one that everyone knows you for. Father Doubting Mysteries.Jack Burditt:Jack. Well,Michael Jamin:Thank you so much. Damn, Jack, the credits on. You are nuts. We were talking yesterday, we were picketing yesterday and I was like, Jack, come on. You got to be on it. My podcast. And you were kind enough to do this. I got a lot of questions for you, Jack. I want to talk about 30 Rock, most of all, because I had a lot of questions while we were drunk on a three hour hike around the Disney lot. But I was like, let's just save it for the podcast. Tell what was 30 Rock, because I know obviously you're LA and they flew you out because that was a New York show. So you lived out New York.Jack Burditt:Yeah, I mean, they didn't fly me out. I flew myself out. Yeah, okay. That's the first thing. Okay. They don't put you up, they don't like No, no, it, yeah, no, it was,Michael Jamin:But wait a minute. Do they give you any allowance for rent or is that No, you're just paying for it out of your salary. TheyJack Burditt:Give you a moving fee, I guess, and it's not much. And it's a one-time thing, so there's no, it's point.Michael Jamin:And then, so were you living in Manhattan then?Jack Burditt:Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And it was a big decision. I mean, that came about, I was, remember, I was actually thinking of a career move at that point. WhatMichael Jamin:Was the moveJack Burditt:To go to dramas? I don't know. A lot of sitcoms. I was like, eh, I don't know. Maybe I want to try something new. But I was supervising a pilot that season, a comedy pilot. And I remember just reading a lot of the drama pilots and go, oh, this might be interesting. And even at that time, I met on Friday Night Lights, which was going to be starting up and was really interest in that show because I thought, oh, this is a great pilot.Michael Jamin:But you had to put together a bunch of different drama specs, right, to do that. Yeah. Yeah.Jack Burditt:Okay. So I did that, and then I just read in the pack. There were some sitcoms in there too, and it was the Untitled Tina Faye project. And I read that and I'm like, oh shit, I want to be on this show.Michael Jamin:Mean it was great. But then had, okay, so then your agent submitted you and then what happened?Jack Burditt:Yeah, and he, not for a long time, could not give me a meeting with Tina. She wanted the people. She wanted, and she's going to do with Robert Carlock. And I didn't know him either. And my agent really spent a lot of time just saying, well, would you meet with this guy? And she read a spec of mine that she just didn't care about that much, but he talked her to a meeting with me. So at some point I got a call, it was a Friday. They're like, can you go to New York to meet with T? And I'm like, yeah. And they said, can you get, there's a plane leaving in three hours, can you get on that? And I said, sure. So I went out, flew out on a Friday night, got there Saturday, met with her Saturday afternoon. She was still doing, she's still the head writer on S N L.Right. She was still doing weekend update. And it was a show day at S N L. I went to her office there. And I just remember there was a lot of chaos going on. And then Gore's supposed to be doing a couple bits in the episode, but they didn't know at that point whether he was going to show up or not. And I was just, wow, curious. I go, well, what happens if you, he doesn't show up? She goes, yeah, you just deal with it. And I thought, she's so calm. I go, I want to work for her so bad.Michael Jamin:Yeah. That becomes basically an episode for 30 Rocky. That's what happens.Jack Burditt:I mean,Michael Jamin:So, alright. I'm just curious about the logistics. So you rent a place in Manhattan and then you shot it, was it in Queens? In Astoria, I imagine? No, you shot inJack Burditt:30. Yeah. Yeah. Silver Cup. So no, we shot it at Silver Cup in Long Island City, Queens. We would certainly shoot at 30 Rocket Times. But no, our offices, our main set was across the river.Michael Jamin:And then how did it work? How was she able to be in the writer's room and be on set? So how did she do that?Jack Burditt:It was tough. Mean, there was a lot of her shooting during the day, and then some of us going to her apartment at night and riding at nightMichael Jamin:Afterwards. So your hours must have been really tough.Jack Burditt:They were long hours. Yeah.Michael Jamin:What was the day, typical day on that show? I mean,Jack Burditt:I don't know mean it was always long. Always. I felt like it was always at least 12 hour days. But I mean, there were times, and we've been in the doing sitcoms or stuff. I mean, there were times we saw the sun come up.Michael Jamin:Yeah, I know. It isJack Burditt:The worst feeling in the world.Michael Jamin:It is the worst feeling. But that show, this was my complaint with 30 Rock. If you laughed out loud, you'd miss the next joke. It was that funny that I was like, I'd almost watch it in silence because like, I don't want to miss it. It was so funny that you couldn't laugh because you'd miss the next big joke, which was right around the corner. It was nuts. That show, I mean, so how was that different for you writing in that show? Was there different and it was a, I don't know, what was the secret? That was a, I just love that show. It was hilarious.Jack Burditt:Yeah. I mean, I don't know. There was something about it that I'm like, oh, this is a show. I always wanted to write this. And it was fun. And it was like, we could go bonkers at times,Michael Jamin:But you'd go bonkers. But then you'd ground it somehow.Jack Burditt:Yes, yes. You always wanted to try to ground it somewhere in there. And even if you're leading up to a bonker scene, you wanted something setting up, this is the reason why this mayhem is going to happen, or, yeah. Right. But I feel like on that show, we've been in rooms before and you pitch something really funny and everybody's pitching on top of it, and then the showrunner's like, yeah, but we can't do that. AndMichael Jamin:On that show it was like, we can that. So I mean, is that right? I mean, was there prettyJack Burditt:Much, yeah, quite often I'm things that I knew if I'd pitch on other shows, it would've been like a, yeah, that's really good. We're not doing that. Right. I thought, oh, it's got a shot here.Michael Jamin:But the thing is, I don't remember. I don't really remember. I don't remember the Beg, the early episodes. It couldn't have started out that broad. It couldn't have. Right. Because no one would've approved that. But no network is going to say you'd be this crazy red out of the gate. Right?Jack Burditt:Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it helped to have the power of Lor. Michaels behind it. He was an EP on it. But yeah, I, what the show became was a bit different from what it started, and there became more frenetic and a little bit more crazy as it went along. But I mean, even in that first season, I mean episode, I don't even know, maybe it was episode nine. By episode nine, we had Paul Rubins just playing this crazy character, and it was the first timer like, oh, maybe this is what the show can be.Michael Jamin:Oh, was really, is that what it was? Wait, the one time in Hits, and you'reJack Burditt:Like, yeah. Yeah.Michael Jamin:So I, I'm pretty sure you, well, you were in episode runs, weren't you? Weren't you in it once? IJack Burditt:Was in a few, yes.Michael Jamin:Yes, a few. And you TJack Burditt:Tina liked to, I think Tina and Robert Carlock. I don't like being on film, which is why theyMichael Jamin:Put you inJack Burditt:It. I think it was, but I also think it was partially, I did a lot of set duty. I was on set a lot during that run. And I think there's also the feeling of you put him in front of the camera so he knows what every actor's going through. And maybe it is helpful because in front of camera can be terrifying.Michael Jamin:Sure. But tell me, okay, so why were you on set most of the time? Why did they chooseJack Burditt:You? A lot the time. I mean it, I felt like in the early years, they just had, there were a few of us, there was me, they, John Regie, Kay Cannon, I don't know. There was a trust in some of us that they're like, you can sit on set. If something comes up, you can be there. Help rewriteMichael Jamin:It. Because Tina was there all the time. Right?Jack Burditt:A lot of the time. Yeah.Michael Jamin:And so she would say, Hey, can you take on another whack at this terrible scene? And then you'd got to just fix it on the set.Jack Burditt:Yeah. Yeah.Michael Jamin:So far, when we were doing Marin, I think I've told this before, but we did a scene in an anger management. Mark was in anger management. So they had a big circle where all of the other people in anger management. And so Mark yells me, he goes, jam and get in here. He wanted to be an extra in the scene. So I'm like, all right. He thought it'd be funny. So I'm sitting in the anger management scene, and then the director all cut, and then I get up and I go to the director, give him notes and all the extras. This guy is going to get fired. What the hell is he doing? Why is he talking to the director like that?Jack Burditt:That's hilarious. Do you remember the time on Just Shoot Me, were Steve was going to put me in a scene in the elevator and ask what he said? Yeah. Or I think somebody else had picked, maybe it should be Bird in the Elevator when George Siegel gets in there and Steve's like, yeah, fine, that seems good. But then the next day he's like, you know what Bird, it can't be in the elevator. This building is too nice of a building. And he basically going up too much of a dirt bag to be inMichael Jamin:That's, oh my God, we on, oh my. I dunno if I can say which. What? I was on a show, it was a network show, and we gave the lead character the last name. Well, you must know her. Linda ett. You know Linda, right? Yeah, yeah,Jack Burditt:Yeah,Michael Jamin:Yeah. So the network didn't realize, they didn't know her name, I guess, and they didn't like the lead being named Ti, they didn't like that name on her. She's like, what my name. But I remember we played, just Shoot Me at Ja, shoot me. We played, and it was best on pre-production. We played basketball. And then I would guard you because you were probably 35. I was like, I get the old, give me the old man. You were 35. Oh God. So now we were talking about this as well yesterday. You're running the Santa Clauss on Disney, and we were mentioning how, I hope you're comfortable talking about this, but the stress that comes with running a show versus being a Coex exec. And I wanted to get your take on, you feel what the differences are for you. What are the stresses for you when you're running a show?Jack Burditt:I mean, I guess the biggest stress of all is if something's not working, it's on you.Michael Jamin:It's on you. It'sJack Burditt:Just on you. I, and I just don't sleep. And it's like I, I'm like, I'm up at three in the morning going, Jesus, we don't figure this out. There's not going to be a script. There's not going to be. And it's just so many, I mean, how it is is a thousand questions a day, a thousand emails, texts, everything like that. And you just, you're overwhelmed. And I mean, what I like doing most is writing.Michael Jamin:But isn't that the hardest? I always say that's the hardest part of the job is the writing part, right?Jack Burditt:It's really hard, but it's also what I like the most. I love writing.Michael Jamin:But when they come to you with a wardrobe problem, aren't you just like, eh, put 'em on whatever. I don't really care.Jack Burditt:Yeah. Yeah. It's funny. In fact, every time I have run a show, always go to the head of wardrobe and I'm like, I don't know anything about it. Yeah. You see, the way I dress, I should never ever have a note on wardrobe. So I will always defer to you. And yet, I always wind up having a couple things like, no, this has got to be like this.Michael Jamin:I wonder if you feel this way as well. When I'm in a production meeting and everyone has a million questions and I'm like, oh, I got so much work to do. Can we get this over with? I got to go back and write. To me, that's not even the work. That's always like, this is nonsense I have to deal with. I got the writing is the hard part.Jack Burditt:Yeah. Yeah. I will say though, it, it's going to, production meetings is good because I think at first when you start writing, you're just like, I'll write anything. And then the production meeting,Michael Jamin:TheyJack Burditt:Say, no, clarifies what a jackass most production thinks you are fo…

Full show notes at the publisher

092 - May Webinar Q&A Aug 02, 2023

Show notes

In May I hosted a webinar titled "How To Get People To Attend Your Industry Event" where I discussed the idea of scabbing during a writers' strike, how having people striking is shutting down productions, and how to get someone to read your script. This episode addresses questions you asked in our Q&A session that we didn't have time to answer. There's lots of great info here, make sure you watch.Show NotesFree Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlistAutogenerated TranscriptMichael Jamin:That's how you do it is you really create relationships where people want to help you, but don't send anything unsolicited ever. And I was going to do a post about that as well ever, because you expose people to liability. So this is one of those things where no good deed goes undone. If you send a script out to someone unsolicited like it, it's just going to get that person in trouble. So that's why we won't do it. That's why we won't read unsolicited scripts. You're listening to Screenwriters. Need to Hear This with Michael. Hey everyone, welcome back. It's Michael Jamin. I'm here with Phil Hudson. Hey Phil.Phil Hudson:Hey, every, everybodyMichael Jamin:What up? He says, what up. Keeps it low key. So we are doing another Q and a episode. So every month Phil and I host a live webinar where we talk, we pick a topic, we dive into it real deep. The last one, this one is from May. The one we did in May had a bunch of questions and if anybody wants to go get that one, they're all the webinars. By the way, Phil, you know this, but I'm telling everyone who's listening, they're all free. They're all free. If you 10 live and we give you stuff like free stuff, download stuff that you can get if you 10 live and if you miss it, you can get a free replay 24 for 24 hours. But then if you miss that and you want to buy it, you can buy it for a slow low price on my website, michaeljamin.com. And this website, this sorry webinar was called How to Get People to Attend Your Industry Event Or Watch Your Stuff, right? Because everyone wants to entice industry types. So we give a whole hour long talk on that. And then we got a lot of Q and as, a lot of questions. And so here are the ones that I wasn't able to answer and for your enjoyment and listening pleasure. Alright, Phil, hit me.Phil Hudson:So for formatting, again, I've kind of grouped them into topics. So we'll go topic by topic. And again, if your question was asked and you don't get an answer, we probably already answered that. Yeah, there are a couple questions at times that we re-answer or readdress because everyone asked that question and people don't seem to get the answer when you tell them because you say it all the time. So yeah, that's okay. That being said, a couple things about the rider strike, just because it's topical right now, MB Stevens, w g a strike question. If the assistant loves our work and recommends it to an executive who wants to sign us, do we sign or wait until the strike is over?Michael Jamin:Oh, no one's going to, one's going to sign with you now. I really don't think anyone's going to sign. So you can sign, if they decide to sign you, you can go ahead and sign, but they're not going to solicit work for you right now.Phil Hudson:Oh, you think you're referring to agents and managers? And this question is about studio executives.Michael Jamin:Oh, studio.Phil Hudson:No. Yeah, they're saying if recommends you to an executive, so the answer is no. Right? Because that would be considered scabbing and the WGA has documentation about that. There's a whole site about it. You could go look up. But anyway, from an agent manager question, I think that's a good question. Lots of people have.Michael Jamin:Yeah, sorry, I was mis misinformed. Yeah, no, if it's a studio, you can't solicit any work for even try you.Phil Hudson:I think they said that even having a meeting with a studio executive about writing is considered an act of aggression against the WGA A and you're hurting your future industry anyway, so you wouldn't want to do that.Michael Jamin:You don't want to do that.Phil Hudson:I want to point out too, Michael, I get it. For a lot of people this feels a little unfair because they don't get any of the benefits of the W G A right now. However, the whole point of this is that they are fighting for your future rights. The way that other people fought for Michael Jamon rights and Steve Glam and Kevin ever, all the other people that we know who are writers, otherMichael Jamin:Writers that just in the 2008 strike cost me a lot of money. A lot of money and didn't, I'm not even upset about it. I don't losing obviously that money, but I always felt like it. I wouldn't have gotten any of this if it weren't for the people before me. So it's not really my money to have because it would've been zero without those people. So it's just like this, it's this honor thing that you have to do if you want to have any honor in your life. So yeah, don't shoot yourself in the foot. Yeah.Phil Hudson:Awesome. Ryan McCurdy, are there riders who are striking trying to shut down current productions in protests separate from picketing outside of the major studiosMichael Jamin:And they're being very successful, they're shutting down shows everywhere. I also know, I was talking to somebody about this just yesterday on the picket line, there's like, I dunno what they call it, it's like a guild strike force or whatever. And so they work the night shift from 6:00 PM to 6:00 AM and so it's only a couple of hardcore picketers. They go up like it's three in the morning and they start picketing studios if they know if that they're going to be doing a production there. And as long as there's more two or more people carrying a picket sign, people won't break the line you, but there has to be two or more. And so the transpo drivers, they're not going to break the line. No one, anyone who works in any union or guild, they're not going to break the lump, but there has to be two or more. And so these guys I was talking to actually this friend of mines, Mike Paler who's on Taco fd, he did it one night, he was there, it was 3:00 AM he's like it was bleary. So yeah, they'll shut down. And I did it as well back in 2008. I was running around as well to different sets. As long as there's locations, as long as there's two more writers, people honor that. The picket line.Phil Hudson:Yeah. One thing that's really important to note is that it's a very unified front from basically everyone in the industry where they understand that this is a reflection of a trend in the industry for everyone. And so the transportation department is who I was thinking of in their contract. They're allowed, they're no, they cannot force their drivers to cross a picket line. And so literally transpo won't show up to your set. And if you don't have transpo, you don't have a show.Michael Jamin:These are union guys and Teamsters. Yeah, teamsters. Teamsters. Don't mess with the teamsters. That'sPhil Hudson:Right. They got good sandwiches. There's your 30 rock reference.Michael Jamin:Oh that,Phil Hudson:Yeah. Liz Lemon. She like the teamsters show up and make sandwiches and she's trying to figure out where they get their steak sandwich. It's like a whole episode. It's like a thing. Anyway, engagement. This is our next section, which I think speaks a little bit more to the topic of the webinar. And these are just the whole topic. The whole thing was about this, how to get industry people to watch your stuff, attend your event. So the meat of this is in the replay, which is available right now @michaeljamin.com slash shop. It's just a nominal fee and it's lifetime access. You on demand, you can watch as many times as you want. Yeah, Fran, yeah. Shop,Michael Jamin:It's just kind of hard to hear. Yeah. Michael jamin.com.Phil Hudson:ShopMichael Jamin:With a P.Phil Hudson:Okay. S h o P. Yep. Fran, what if you don't have an event or something to watch? What about reading your script? Meaning how would you get people to read your script?Michael Jamin:Oh, how would get someone to read your script that that's a big ask of, I was going to do a post about this. Actually, that's a huge ask and you only get to ask that once. And if it's garbage or not up to snuff or mediocre, you forget it. You just shot yourself in the foot because you only get one chance for a great first impression. And it's big. You're asking someone in the industry to spend, let's say two hours on your script, maybe spend an hour on notes, maybe another hour on a phone call, giving you those notes during which you are going to be very defensive because no one likes getting notes and it's an unpleasant experience. I was the same way. I didn't like getting notes. I want to be told my script was perfect. And I, I've done this enough where you start giving notes and people are like, they get defensive. It's like, all right, look, I'm doing you a favor. It's a huge ask. So the best way to do it is, is the best way obviously. And Phil, this the best way is to have someone owe you a favor and I've owed you, that's how we met. You were very good to me and my wife and I felt like I owed you a favor. And that's how I read yourPhil Hudson:Script. And for everyone listening, I didn't know that you were who you were. I didn't, right, because it was the right thing to do and I would've done it for anybody in that situation. And I never looked at it as, I'm going to get something from this guy. It was literally like I just had to do my job and this was the ethical thing to do. And that paid off as, call it karma. It paid off the way it should have, which is you offered to read something, I sent you something and your response was, eh, it's a bit of a Frankenstein here. And that hurt. And I didn't ask you to read anything again for three yearsMichael Jamin:Until you, until were ready. But also, as far as I was going to do a whole, I could do a whole, I dunno, maybe a webinar in the future. So I don't want to rob from that. But basically if it's talking about agents, and I've spoken about this, you got to bring more to the table than just a script. But there are some agents that will read the unsolicited scripts, they will read from new writers, the big ones, you're not going to have anyone at U T A or I C M or ca read your script, but that's okay. There are much smaller ones, but you don't pay them, don't pay them upfront. That's not what agents don't do that. They work on commission. So that's how you do it is you really create relationships where people want to help you, but don't send anything unsolicited ever. And I was going to do a post about that as well ever, because you expose people to liability. So this is one of those things where no good deeded goes undone. If you send a script out to someone unsolicited it, it's just going to get that. It's just get that person in trouble. So that's why we won't do it. That's why we won't read unsolicited scripts.Phil Hudson:But to that note, Chandra Thomas, who's in the writer's room this season, she's a strike captain, super go-getter. She was kind enough after the season to reach out to myself and Hannah, our writer's assistant, and offer to read anything we had. I've never asked anyone else on, I've never asked our showrunners, I've never asked anybody to read anything except for Mike Rap who was a peer, who became a snap writer and we trade things. But beyond that, she offered. And that's incredibly kind gesture of hers. I still haven't sent her anything though. I don't want to waste her. AndMichael Jamin:That's because you forged a relationshipPhil Hudson:With her and I don't want to waste your time, so I still haven't followed up with her, but I haven't sent her anything. I don't want to waste her time,Michael Jamin:So,Phil Hudson:Alright, awesome. Josh Hunt does the book you suggest we publish, and I think this was you saying you need to put yourself out there and you need to do more. Don't wait for people. Does the book you suggest we publish? Should it be the same story as an existing pilot, we want to sell itMichael Jamin:Could do anything you want. I mean, make a name for yourself. Make a name, you know, putting out a book and whether you indie, publish it or get it by, pick it up by a publisher. If it only sells 500 copies or whatever, that's not going to move the needle. You have to make a hit, whatever. If it becomes a bestseller, people are going to reach out to you because they want to exploit you. When you want to be exploited, and I use the word exploit, it gets your attention. Obviously I'm being a little flip, but you want to create something that people want. And so if you create whatever your script is, whatever your book is, I don't know, whatever you want it to be, as long when it becomes a bestseller because and because people want to read it, by the way, your poorly written book will probably not be a bestseller. Your well-written book might be. And so then people will come after you because you got something they want, which is basically a platform, something that's comes with a built in audience. It's all about marketing so much about Hollywood. Is it? It's a business. I didn't read Fresh 50 Shades of Gray.It became a bestseller and they made a movie out of it. And that's just how it's done. And when you go back in time, this is how it's always been done for 40, 50 years, you go, oh, I didn't realize that was that movie that I loved was based on a book. Based on a book.Phil Hudson:Yep. Yeah, absolutely. Graham Garside. If established writers such as yourself cannot read established writer scripts for legal reasons or fear of co conflict of interest sake, who do you suggest we reach out to that can read them?Michael Jamin:Well, I kind of the same thing. You forge forge relationships. That's why people, I say, do I have to move to Hollywood? Well, you don't have to do a damn thing, but this is where you're going to make relationships. I met a kid today just on the picket line and I was talking to, he was a nice kid and he was actually friend. Oh no, a student of one of my friends who teaches at local university and he goes, this student is really good. He introduced me to him because I don't know, I can't really help him at, it's, we're all on strike. But he wanted to help this kid out, make a relationship. And so that only happens by being out here and by being good. It wasn't like the kid was bad, was a bad writer, he thought this kid had potential. So that's why that came.Phil Hudson:Well, it's right, there's capital and we talk about this principle in business leadership capital. There's capital being exchanged. It's goodwill in that that's that favor you're talking about being owed, feeling like you owe someone. So your friend is not going to put you in a position to be around someone who they don't think can, will make it or can cut it. Right.Michael Jamin:ThatPhil Hudson:Makes hi…

Full show notes at the publisher

Our TOPPODCAST Picks

Follow Us

Stay Connected

What The Hell Is Michael Jamin Talking About?

Related Podcasts

Links

Stay Connected