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    News

    What Do You Mean By That?

    Join multi-ethnic co-hosts Sara + Misasha – two wickedly smart, heart-led, long-distance best friends – as they help folks talk smarter and think deeper about the world around us. Whether it’s about science, history, current events, social justice, or more, their community consists of people who want to be better humans, to benefit all of us.

    We won’t let the fire hose of information overwhelm us. Whether you’re a seasoned expert or new to the work, you’ll find yourself listening, learning, and feeling inspired to do something new after each episode.

    If you can never get enough knowledge but also don’t want to feel overwhelmed… Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of curious folks who constantly wonder: what do you mean by that?

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    Latest Episodes:
    118: Radical Empathy with Terri Givens Jun 09, 2021
    Show notes

    If you've been listening to our podcast for a while, you know that we lean into heart-led action to create change - and today we get to interview an expert on where that heart-led action comes from. Terri Givens is a woman of many talents, but one of them is author, and we're talking to her about her book Radical Empathy, which provides a framework as to how we reach radical empathy for ourselves, and where radical empathy can be used to make change and bridge racial divides (hint: it's pretty much everywhere).

    We're also super excited to announce that Terri is the one who wrote the foreword for our forthcoming book Dear White Women: Let's Get Uncomfortable Talking About Racism - which is now available for preorder!

    Have questions, comments, or concerns? Email us at hello@dearwhitewomen.com

    What to listen for:

    • The six steps to radical empathy - and how it's tied into action
    • How Terri's personal story, including race, contributed to her analysis that outlines this path to bridge racial divides
    • What role does our empathy towards ourselves play into our ability to extend empathy to others, with regards to "invisible" health issues?

    About Terri: Terri Givens is the CEO and Founder of Brighter Higher Ed. She is also a political scientist with more than 30 years of success in higher education, politics, international affairs, and non-profits. She is an accomplished speaker and uses her platform to develop leaders with an understanding of the importance of diversity and encourages personal growth through empathy.

    Terri has held leadership positions as Vice Provost at University of Texas at Austin and Provost of Menlo College (first African American and woman); professorships at University of Texas at Austin, and University of Washington. She was the founding director at the Center for European Studies at the University of Texas and led the university's efforts in Mexico and Latin America as Vice Provost for International Activities. At Menlo College she has led faculty and staff in developing programs for first-generation students, updating curriculum and infrastructure for evidence-based assessment.

    Terri is the author/editor of books and articles on immigration policy, European politics, and security. Her most recent book is the memoir, Radical Empathy: Finding a Path to Bridging Racial Divides.

    Where to buy Radical Empathy: https://policy.bristoluniversitypress.co.uk/radical-empathy

    Where to pre-order Dear White Women: Let's Get (Un)comfortable Talking About Racism: https://thecollectivebook.studio/dear-white-women

    Like what you hear? Don't miss another episode and subscribe!

    Catch up on more commentary between episodes by following us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter – and even more opinions and resources if you join our email list.


    117: One Year: An Intro to Our Summer of Action Jun 02, 2021
    Show notes

    We're here, just over one year after the murder of George Floyd, with a question: now that we've spent a year in discussions centered on being more open about racism, systemic racism, and how we can be more anti-racist, what have we actually done about it? How do we feel? Where do we go from here, and more importantly - where should we collectively be moving as a country?

    Today's episode is a conversation - a reflection of what we've experienced last year collectively and personally, and most importantly, an introduction to our summer of action. Let's move past "muted and listening" and onto action, because that's how we're actually going to make change, together.

    Have questions, comments, or concerns? Email us at hello@dearwhitewomen.com

    What to listen for:

    • The biggest shifts that Misasha & Sara have seen, both personally, and as a collective in our culture, in the one year since George Floyd was murdered
    • Why we need to move beyond "muted and listening," and into concrete action
    • Introducing our summer of action series of episodes designed to push you to take steps to move the needle on anti-racism, in your own spheres of influence
    • So tell your friends to follow Dear White Women wherever they listen to podcasts!

    Like what you hear? Don't miss another episode and subscribe!

    Catch up on more commentary between episodes by following us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter – and even more opinions and resources if you join our email list.


    116: We're Not Your Lotus Flower: Asian Women in America May 26, 2021
    Show notes

    This episode is personal, as we're both Japanese women. We've been called exotic. We've had White men visibly change their reactions to us when they find out we're Japanese. We've then had to hear about their "other Asian girlfriends". For the record? That's disgusting.

    But we need to talk. We need to talk about what we've personally experienced, what our Asian female friends have experienced, and the history that we, as a country, don't want to talk about - namely, how Asian women are seen by Americans, and in particular, White men. Because, more often than not, we're seen as invisible, exotic, sexual toys. And we're done with that B.S., to be quite clear.

    Because what happens when we don't talk about it? Atlanta, and the further perpetuation of historical inaccuracies, untruths, and stereotypes that we need to change right now.

    Have questions, comments, or concerns? Email us at hello@dearwhitewomen.com

    What to listen for:

    • The role the US government and military played in the creating the hypersexualized steroetypes of Asian women
    • Two harmful female Asian stereotypes: The Lotus Flower and Dragon Lady
    • How our history, unaddressed, leads to false and damaging notions of Asian women - and leads to killings like in Atlanta

    For more reading:

    How a Long History of Intertwined Racism and Misogyny Leaves Asian Women in America Vulnerable to Violence

    A Sociologist's View On The Hyper-Sexualization Of Asian Women In American Society

    Fetishized, sexualized and marginalized, Asian women are uniquely vulnerable to violence

    Like what you hear? Don't miss another episode and subscribe!

    Catch up on more commentary between episodes by following us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter – and even more opinions and resources if you join our email list.


    115: Asians at Work, with Jerry Won May 19, 2021
    Show notes

    When's the last time you had a conversation with someone of Asian descent? Not just a transactional conversation, or a "hi how are you" mumbled in passing, but one where you saw them as a product of their history and experiences and asked them something perhaps more sensitive and interesting than "where are YOU from?" Something about their goals, their passions, and how their identities may have played into shaping who they are, rather than relying on the stereotypes that are so pervasive in American culture?

    Our guest today, Jerry Won, is the host of Dear Asian Americans, a podcast featured by Apple Podcasts at the TOP of the list of podcasts to listen to for Asian American Pacific Islander Month this May. His podcast growth has more than quadrupled since the latest slew of anti-Asian hate - and he's used it as an opportunity for personal and professional growth to get more narratives of the often under-celebrated Asian community in America out into the world.

    Have questions, comments, or concerns? Email us at hello@dearwhitewomen.com

    What to listen for:

    • How Asian cultural norms might shape how vocal Asian people in America might be
    • What Jerry thinks about the model minority myth, and how it places an artificial divide between Asians in America and other minoritized communities
    • The hypocrisy of people who stand against immigrants, when most of us are descendants of immigrants - even if you look White
    • How making assumptions about your Asian colleagues may be harming them

    About Jerry:

    Jerry Won is a storyteller, brand builder, and community leader. He is the Founder & CEO of Just Like Media, an Asian American storytelling company whose podcast brands include Dear Asian Americans, recently featured as the top podcast for APAHM by Apple, and currently working with McDonald's on the #WeAreAPA campaign.

    He is a keynote speaker and workshop facilitator and has worked with organizations such as Johnson & Johnson, LEK Consulting, Horizon Media, and Pepsi. Jerry speaks on a variety of topics including authentic storytelling and the Asian American experience in the workplace.

    Prior, he was a Senior Strategy Consultant at Accenture and sales leader at start-ups and F500 companies. Jerry has a BS from USC Marshall and an MBA from Michigan Ross, where he served as President of the Student Government Association. He has served in board and leadership roles of alumni organizations and community non-profits.

    Along with his wife Kyung and his two children, Jerry lives in Southern California.

    Like what you hear? Don't miss another episode and subscribe!

    Catch up on more commentary between episodes by following us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter – and even more opinions and resources if you join our email list.


    114: Do You Know Why It's Called the Model Minority Myth? May 12, 2021
    Show notes

    Continuing with this focus on our Asian stories during Asian American and Pacific Islander Heritage Month this May, we want to dismantle one of the most harmful stereotypes of Asian Americans: that of the "model minority." But what is it, exactly?

    It's many things - we've got tons of examples. But fundamentally, it's the thing that has us believe that all Asians are subservient, meek, and inherently successful - and ignores the complicated history of Asian immigration, the fact that Asians aren't a monolith, and why this label hurts all of us.

    But, other people might argue - as stereotypes go, it seems like a great thing to be called, right? We disagree. And today, we're going to talk about why we stand against this idea of Asian people being thought of as a model minority.

    Have questions, comments, or concerns? Email us at hello@dearwhitewomen.com

    What to listen for:

    • What is the model minority myth, and where did it originate?
    • The immigration policies that limited and shaped the influx of people of Asian descent into the United States until the mid-1900s.
    • The tremendous disparities between the incomes and "success" of Indians in America compared to say Burmese in America - and yet we are all lumped together as "Asian"
    • Why we firmly stand against the idea of the model minority

    Like what you hear? Don't miss another episode and subscribe!

    Catch up on more commentary between episodes by following us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter – and even more opinions and resources if you join our email list.


    113: Anti-Asian Racism Ain't New, People May 05, 2021
    Show notes

    In your elementary, middle, and high school years - what did you learn about Asian American history? Can you name even one specific thing that you learned about the role of Asians in American history? If you can't name many, you aren't alone - these weren't generally taught in schools when we were growing up. And given how things are slow to change, there's a high chance your children aren't learning these in school now either. The importance of representation in curriculum is a favorite topic of ours, and today we're turning this focus on the history of Asian Americans in the United States.

    Because if you know the history, you'll know that anti-Asian racism ain't new, people. In fact, it's basically been built into American society for as long as Asians have been in this country. So get ready, because today we're going to anti-racism school.

    Have questions, comments, or concerns? Email us at hello@dearwhitewomen.com

    Things to listen for:

    • Specific histories of hate against Asians in American - including Yellow Peril, periods of disease-blaming, Japanese Incarceration, Vincent Chin, and more.
    • The institutional responses to anti-Asian hate (hint: it wasn't supportive of the Asian experience)
    • The erasure of Larry Itliong from the history of the Delano Grape Strike and the United Farm Workers foundation - especially in contrast with Cesar Chavez
    • What teachers, parents, and really everyone can do to make sure Asian American history gets taught in schools

    Like what you hear? Don't miss another episode and subscribe!

    Catch up on more commentary between episodes by following us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter – and even more opinions and resources if you join our email list.


    112: Asians at (Public) School, with Alan Mak Apr 28, 2021
    Show notes

    We're kicking off a five-episode series that takes a deeper look into what it means to be Asian/Asian-American in this country - looking at the history behind anti-Asian discrimination, but also really talking about what being Asian means for us, and for our guests. Today we talk about all of that, and more, with Sara's dear old friend Alan Mak, who is the co-founder and CEO of Version Tomorrow as well as the managing partner of the well-known fashion brand Public School.

    This is a conversation not to be missed.

    Have questions, comments, or concerns? Email us at hello@dearwhitewomen.com

    What to listen for:

    • What it was like growing up visibly Asian, in a predominantly White community
    • The story in the NY city restaurant and what it says about White adjacency
    • What both Misasha and Alan think about as they stand on the sidelines of their kids' sports games - being one of the only non-White people there
    • Race consciousness in the fashion industry
    • What Alan wishes more White people knew about his Asian experience

    About Alan Mak

    Co-Founder & CEO – Version Tomorrow Managing Partner – Public School Alan Mak is Co-Founder and CEO of Version Tomorrow and Managing Partner of CFDA award-winning fashion brand Public School.

    With nearly 20 years in the fashion industry, as a founder of multiple apparel brands and managing sourcing and production for numerous Advanced Contemporary fashion brands, Alan is currently transforming supply chains and pushing boundaries in material innovation, sustainability and circularity within the fashion industry.

    Alan began his career as an Equity Research Analyst covering the Retail and Ecommerce sectors and was also a Competitive Intelligence Analyst in the Enterprise Software industry. Alan is a graduate of Duke University and his current interests lie at the intersection of fashion, consumer and technology.

    IG: @alancmak

    About Version Tomorrow

    VERSION TOMORROW is the first of its kind ultra-premium basics and "blanks" platform that was built from the ground up with the idea that quality needn't be sacrificed in order for the product to be sustainable. VERSION TOMORROW makes the highest quality, sustainable basics using our own blend of recycled cotton and organic cotton that enables creators of all kinds to easily make sustainable "merch". VERSION TOMORROW won the 3.0 CFDA + LEXUS FASHION* INITIATIVE.

    About Public School

    PUBLIC SCHOOL is a New York story. Founded in 2008, PUBLIC SCHOOL continues to evolve the landscape for menswear and women's wear. The brand blends high and low references from music, art and culture to create a platform that transcends fashion and promotes the ideas of social consciousness and justice. PUBLIC SCHOOL has received numerous industry accolades including winning the CFDA Swarovski Award for Emerging Talent - Menswear, the CFDA Vogue Fashion Fund, the CFDA American Designer of the Year - Menswear, and the International Woolmark Prize.

    Like what you hear? Don't miss another episode and subscribe!

    Catch up on more commentary between episodes by following us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter – and even more opinions and resources if you join our email list.


    111: Pay Attention to Where You Pay Attention with Michael Goldhaber Apr 21, 2021
    Show notes

    If you're listening to this episode while scrolling through your phone, we want you to stop and pay attention. This episode, after all, will be all about attention - how we use it, where we spend it, and why some people are so good at pulling attention towards them, good OR bad.

    We want to thank Charlie Warzel at the NY Times for bringing this week's guest, Michael Goldhaber, to our attention. After all, how often do you get to connect with a visionary human being who predicted the destructive forces of social media and the fight for people's attention - all the way back in the 1980s and 1990s (in other words, before social media even existed)?

    Have questions, comments, or concerns? Email us at hello@dearwhitewomen.com

    What to listen for:

    • What is the attention economy?
    • The role of positive vs negative attention - and the role that social media now plays in our human need to matter
    • How does the attention economy deepen inequality?
    • Can an attention economy and a democracy coexist?

    Want to read more?

    NY Times: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/04/opinion/michael-goldhaber-internet.html

    Michael Goldhaber from 1997: https://www.wired.com/1997/12/es-attention/

    About Michael Goldhaber:

    Michael H. Goldhaber, though a Ph.D. in theoretical physics, has spent much of his life looking at the social impacts of technology, the nature of human thought, and related issues. (A.B., Physics, Harvard, 1963, Ph.D., Physics, Stanford, 1968)

    In 1968, he cofounded Scientists and Engineers for Social and Political Action, which soon became "Science for the People."

    In about 1982, working at the Institute for Policy Studies, in Washington, DC, he first realized that what was known at the time as "The Information Revolution" actually amounted to a move into a quite new kind of economy, which he labeled "the Attention Economy." He has been writing and speaking about that on and off since, continually re-evaluating what it means. Some of his articles about it are to be found on the online journal about the Internet, First Monday.

    He has recently re-activated his blog, www.goldhaber.org which is mostly on the subject. Recently, Charlie Warzel in The New York Times called him "the Cassandra of the Internet Age" for his predicting the many of the problems caused by the Internet and social media, largely before social media even existed.

    In 1986, he published a book Reinventing Technology: Policies for Democratic Values. (Routlege)

    He lives in Berkeley, California with his wife, Karen Weinstein, and dog, Charlie. He has also pursued abstract painting, novel writing, gardening, and progressive politics.

    Like what you hear? Don't miss another episode and subscribe!

    Catch up on more commentary between episodes by following us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter – and even more opinions and resources if you join our email list.


    110: Why We Should All Care About the Filibuster Apr 14, 2021
    Show notes

    The filibuster is a political tool that we've been hearing more about in the media - but what is it really, and what role does it play in not only stalling political agendas but importantly, in keeping Black and Brown people suppressed? If we're going to see it stay - or possibly go away - we need to know more. We're talking about this today on why we should all care about the filibuster.

    Have questions, comments, or concerns? Email us at hello@dearwhitewomen.com

    What to listen for:

    • A brief history of voter suppression and the role of the filibuster in legislative action
    • An explanation of what the filibuster is and how it has been employed and changed
    • What the filibuster has been used for (to block progressive legislation)
    • How we can and should address the future of the filibuster

    Like what you hear? Don't miss another episode and subscribe!

    Catch up on more commentary between episodes by following us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter – and even more opinions and resources if you join our email list.


    109: What SCOTUS May Decide About Social Safety Nets - Including Abortion Apr 07, 2021
    Show notes

    While "socialism" has often been the catchphrase used to instantly dismiss any talk of building social safety nets, people in a society do need some fundamental assurances of safety in order to function - and function well.

    Particularly if you're a woman, love a woman, or are a person of childbearing age, one specific angle of social safety nets is going to be considered before the Supreme Court. That is to say, access to decisions about women's reproductive rights: abortion.

    Take a listen to learn about the upcoming court cases that may reduce both the role of the government in general and delegate decision-making about important topics like pregnancy to various states instead. Think about who might be in charge of making decisions for you, if that happens…

    Have questions, comments, or concerns? Email us at hello@dearwhitewomen.com

    What to listen for:

    • What happened to the makeup of the Supreme Court during the Trump presidency, and why that's important right now
    • The nondelegation doctrine and its impact on the role of Congress in providing social safety nets, as well as the current thinking around it
    • Two specific challenges to Roe v. Wade from Alabama and Mississippi that may be heard - and considered - by the Court soon
    • What the impact of these reproductive rights cases - or, more broadly, social safety net cases - may have on everyone

    Like what you hear? Don't miss another episode and subscribe!

    Catch up on more commentary between episodes by following us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter – and even more opinions and resources if you join our email list.


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