We Saw the Devil: A True Crime Podcast

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The Lindsay Clancy Trial: The Jurors Speak, Reddington Makes Moves, & "Repeal the 19th" Sep 09, 2026

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The jury foreperson has a name now. Roni Carlson. She and two other women from that panel sat down with NBC10 this week and told everybody what actually went on in there for seven days, and one detail has been rattling around my skull since.
The holdout admitted he had reasonable doubt.
Out loud. To the room. She was so relieved she started filling out the verdict forms, all three of them, signed her name on each one. And then he said, "But I'm still not going to say that she's not guilty by reason of insanity."
He wasn't confused. He got there. He walked all the way to the answer and then just declined to be moved by it, and that's the thing I can't put down, because it's the whole summer in one sentence.
The rest of what those women described isn't much prettier. They said he was arrogant. Said he wouldn't engage. Said he brushed off the nurses on the panel when they walked him through the medications and the toxicology, which, if you're a woman who has ever been in a meeting, you already knew was coming.
Meanwhile Kevin Reddington had a week.
He went on Good Morning America and asked the President to pardon a woman facing state charges, which the President cannot do and which Reddington later admitted he knows perfectly well. I break down what that stunt was actually for and who it was actually aimed at, because it wasn't Trump.
He floated a plea. He said he'd like to chat with the jurors, which is a normal thing for a lawyer to say and a slightly less normal thing to say five days after accusing one of them of perjury in open court.
And before the courthouse doors shut, he announced his next client. She's charged with murdering her grandmother in North Adams and she's been sitting in a cell for nearly four years waiting for a trial. Every allegation in that case is unproven and she's pleaded not guilty, and I say so about eight times, because half the outlets covering it have already decided what it rhymes with.
Also in here: the math Tim Cruz is staring at before the September 29 hearing, why a plea is probably the most humane outcome available and will satisfy nobody, and how a Brockton defense attorney became a folk hero to women who couldn't have picked him out of a lineup in July.
Then the repeal-the-19th crowd, who did not go home after the mistrial and who are not who you think they are.
And at the end, the boys. I went and read the actual research on raising sons who don't turn into manosphere sycophants.
IF YOU NEED SUPPORT
National Maternal Mental Health Hotline: call or text 1-833-TLC-MAMA (1-833-852-6262). Free, confidential, 24/7.
Postpartum Support International: 1-800-944-4773, or text "Help" to 800-944-4773. Warmline, not a crisis line. A volunteer calls you back.
In crisis: dial or text 988, or text HOME to 741741.
Postpartum psychosis is a medical emergency. Go to an emergency room.
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The Lindsay Clancy Trial, Day 27: Holdout. 11-1 Sep 04, 2026

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A judge in Plymouth, Massachusetts spent Thursday afternoon reading twelve adults the definition of a word.
Not the evidence. Not the eighty-odd witnesses. A definition. Reasonable doubt. Because a note came out of that jury room saying one person in there will not take it.
Disagreeing with eleven people is allowed. That's the job. Refusing the standard itself is something else, and it's about to blow up five weeks of trial.
Six days of deliberation. Thirty-six and a half hours. Split eleven to one. Judge Sullivan has already spent the dynamite charge, and under Massachusetts law he can't use it again without the jury's permission. Kevin Reddington stood up in open court and asked him to throw the holdout off the panel. Sullivan said no. They're back Friday morning.
This episode: what actually happened in that courtroom Thursday, why courts almost never remove a holdout juror and why you should be glad they don't, and what a mistrial would actually mean for this case.
Plus the number nobody in the discourse wants to look at. For three weeks the argument was that a jury of nine women and three men would split along sex. That prediction needed nine to three. It got eleven to one, and there is no way to reach eleven from a pool of nine women without bringing men along.
And there is one thing I'm not telling you in this episode, about the identity of the holdout, and the reason why is the most important part of the whole hour.
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The Lindsay Clancy Trial, Day 26: Breaking News & Everyone's Lost Their Damn Minds Sep 02, 2026

Show notes

The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders has a formal diagnosis for caffeine withdrawal.
It does not have one for postpartum psychosis.
That's where this episode starts, and it turns out to explain almost everything about the six weeks that followed.
As I record this, the jury in Plymouth has told the judge for the second time in two days that it cannot agree on whether Lindsay Clancy was criminally responsible. Five weeks of trial. More than eighty witnesses. The judge has now read them the Tuey-Rodriguez charge, the last instruction he has, and under Massachusetts law he can't read it again without their consent.
Twelve people who saw every exhibit can't get there. The internet got there in nine minutes.
This episode is not about whether she's guilty. It's about the machine that spent August turning three dead children into content, and it hits everybody.
The women who made this their entire personality: the pink shirts, the "Same, Lindsay" trend, a hundred and sixty-four thousand TikToks, twenty-five Etsy designs, a crowd cheering a defense attorney like he'd walked out of Selma, and a fifty-six-year-old woman arrested in a courthouse parking lot.
And the men who decided the correct response to a psychiatric emergency was a constitutional amendment. A retired UFC champion who was calling to repeal the 19th two years before he'd ever heard her name. A podcaster on episode 1,825. A commentator who looked at a stranger holding her own baby and asked where CPS was.
Also in here:
Why parasocial defendant worship is a format and not a female pathology, and what ten thousand people mailing $290,000 to Luigi Mangione proves about that.
The Andrea Yates conviction that got overturned because an expert witness testified about a Law & Order episode that had never been filmed. All 269 episodes were searched. It did not exist. Twenty-five years later, a major podcaster covering this case said out loud that he didn't need his story verified.
The nine murder-suicides a week that nobody is holding a rally about, and why there is no federal database counting them.
Three fathers who raised the exact defense Clancy is raising. Nobody proposed taking anyone's vote away.
And the number that ends the argument: the UK has around 21 psychiatric units where a woman in this emergency is admitted with her baby. France has 15. The United States has four million births a year and zero.
Six weeks of the loudest people in America screaming about dead children, and not one of them proposed a bed or a solution.
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The Lindsay Clancy Trial: Verdict Watch (Day 3) & The Philadelphia House of Horrors Update Aug 31, 2026

Show notes

Three days. Seventeen hours. Twelve jurors, five possible verdicts, and a door nobody can see behind.
Day three of deliberations in the Lindsay Clancy trial ended Monday afternoon with no verdict and instructions to come back Tuesday. Robin breaks down where the case actually stands...the criminal responsibility standard, what "not guilty" would really mean here, and why the jury's request for the pill bottles and the knife tells you they're doing the work.
Then the sidewalk: the pink shirts, the twenty-five-plus Etsy designs, the defense attorney fan merchandise, the free coffee at a verdict watch, and the fact that somebody bought the Duxbury house.
Plus a viral post arguing that a not-guilty verdict from a nine-woman jury is grounds for repealing the Nineteenth Amendment, and the math problem that argument doesn't survive.
And in Philadelphia in the House of Horrors case...fifty hard drives, five urns, four missing women, no bodies, and what investigators say they found on one of those drives this week, which is something Western media very much claims doesn't exist as a theory.
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The Lindsay Clancy Trial Recap: Day 2 of Jury Deliberations Aug 30, 2026

Show notes

On Friday morning, twelve people in Plymouth, Massachusetts asked to see two things: a bag of prescription pill bottles and the knife Lindsay Clancy used on herself. That request is the entire factual content of the biggest news day in this trial since closing arguments, and within hours it had been publicly interpreted as a conviction, an acquittal, a hung jury, and a verdict coming Monday before lunch.
This episode walks Friday minute by minute, then does the thing this show exists to do: separates what happened from what people needed it to mean.
Also covered: the prosecution's rebuttal psychiatrist, Dr. Avram Mack, resigned from Nemours Children's Health on the same day he finished testifying, and Nemours will not say why. What that fact does and does not establish. The full evidentiary record the jury is working through, including why the central dispute is not whether Clancy was mentally ill. The five verdict options and what an insanity finding actually means in Massachusetts, which is not what the internet says it means. The sidewalk outside the courthouse, where pink t-shirts and handwritten signs reading "1st Degree MURDER" sat on benches thirty feet apart.
And a Reality Check on why women are responding to this case the way they are, built on a fact most of the coverage has missed entirely: postpartum psychosis, the condition at the center of this five week trial, is not in the DSM.
Recorded Sunday afternoon. The jury returns Monday at 9 a.m. Eastern. Nothing in this episode assumes a verdict.
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The Lindsay Clancy Trial, Day 21 Recap: The Last Witness Broke Ranks + Closings Aug 27, 2026

Show notes

Day 21. The last day of evidence in Commonwealth v. Lindsay Clancy.
Judge William Sullivan opened with a line from Henry V. Four hours later, defense attorney Kevin Reddington was reading the prosecution's own opening statement out loud to the prosecution's own final witness and asking him if he agreed with it. Dr. Gregory Saathoff, forensic psychiatrist at the University of Virginia and senior psychiatrist for the FBI's Behavioral Analysis Unit, said the statement minimizes what Lindsay Clancy was going through.
That is the state's closer telling a jury the state's theory is too small.
He also gave prosecutors the cleanest planning testimony of the trial. Both things happened the same day, from the same witness, under oath.
This episode walks Day 21 in chronological order, start to finish.
This episode contains discussion of child death, suicide, and psychiatric crisis.
If you are struggling: call or text 988 for the Suicide and Crisis Lifeline. For postpartum mood disorders, the National Maternal Mental Health Hotline is free, confidential and available 24/7 at 1-833-TLC-MAMA.
We Saw the Devil publishes three times a week.
Website and full archive: wesawthedevil.com Patreon: We Saw the Devil Twitter: @wesawthedevil Instagram: @wesawthedevilpodcast TikTok: @wesawthedevilpolitics Facebook: wesawthedevil Robin on Instagram: @robin_wstd
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The Lindsay Clancy Trial, Day 20: "Committing The Act Is Not Curative Of The Voice" Aug 26, 2026

Show notes

***Due to time constants, this episode is unedited.
Day 20 was the last full day of evidence in the Lindsay Clancy murder trial, and it was the strangest day of the whole five weeks.
The morning belonged to Dr. Kirk Heilbrun, the forensic psychologist the Commonwealth hired to explain postpartum psychosis to a jury. On cross examination, Kevin Reddington established that Heilbrun last treated a patient with postpartum psychosis in 1982, has never published a word on it, wrote his only article on psychosis in 1977, and has been paid roughly $54,000 at $300 an hour.
That same witness told jurors Lindsay Clancy committed what he called altruistic filicide. That she killed her three children out of love, so they would not be left behind or suffer without her after she took her own life. The prosecution has argued for five weeks that this was planned and methodical. Their own expert just told the jury it was despair.
The afternoon belonged to Dr. Gregory Saathoff, forensic psychiatrist at the University of Virginia and a senior psychiatrist for the FBI's Behavioral Analysis Unit. He gave that jury something no witness had given them in five weeks: a moment by moment account of how Cora, Dawson and Callan died, sourced entirely to Lindsay Clancy's own words. The refrigerator. The chicken nuggets. The 5:34 phone call. The voice. The order. And then he spent the rest of the day taking it apart.
We go through the whole day in order, gavel to gavel, because the order is the argument.
In this episode:
The Monday mistrial motion, and why "mortal sin" has now been put in front of this jury twice.
Heilbrun's direct: bipolar two, peritraumatic dissociation, and the eighteen minute problem. "Why the basement. Who among the children goes first. What do you say to the kids to keep them from panicking."
The cross: 1982, the $54,000, the "beast" question, the day program in Rhode Island that would not take her, and Reddington standing behind Lindsay Clancy's wheelchair.
Saathoff's five attacks on the voice, including the line that is going to end up in closing arguments: "Committing the act is not curative of the voice. I've not ever seen that."
Why the chicken nuggets are contested evidence and not a poignant detail.
The circus outside the courthouse, the livestream, and the TikToker the defense actually tried to put on the stand.
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The Lindsay Clancy Trial, Day 19: Mistrial Over "Mortal Sin" Aug 25, 2026

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Day 19 of the Lindsay Clancy murder trial in Plymouth Superior Court, and the prosecution's rebuttal case fell apart in slow motion. Forensic psychologist Dr. Kirk Heilbrun called the postpartum psychosis defense "convenient," offered the clearest alternate theory yet, and then said the words "isn't suicide a mortal sin" in front of the jury. Kevin Reddington moved for a mistrial.
Judge William Sullivan denied it and then reprimanded the prosecution anyway. The jury went home early. Closing arguments are Wednesday.
But the story nobody is covering is the firm. Both of the Commonwealth's rebuttal experts were retained through Park Dietz and Associates, named for the psychiatrist whose false Law & Order testimony got Andrea Yates' conviction overturned in 2005. The defense's star witness on Friday was Dr. Phillip Resnick, who was the Yates defense expert. This trial is a rematch, and the two prosecution experts cannot even agree on what is wrong with Lindsay Clancy.
IN THIS EPISODE
Reddington takes apart Dr. Avram Mack on the DSM's four week postpartum window, the WHO's different standard, and the proposed six week revision. "Postpartum is not a disease, doctor." Mack admits it is roughly the third time in his career he has testified on criminal responsibility, and that he has treated about ten women with postpartum psychosis since 2001. On cross he concedes that blood work and thyroid testing should have been done, and as far as he can tell were not.
Then the firm. Park Dietz and Associates, the Andrea Yates conviction reversal, the joint evaluation at Tewksbury, and why "two independent experts" is doing a lot of work in that sentence.
Then Heilbrun. His testing found no malingering and a slight tendency to underreport symptoms. He diagnosed bipolar II, which splits the Commonwealth's own two experts. He offered "suicide combined with altruistic filicide" as the alternate theory, a theory in which love is the motive. He attacked the 18 minute voice on three fronts. And he used the word "convenient."
Then the mistrial. "Intentional misconduct," Sullivan's instruction from the bench, and the second time religion has entered this trial through the prosecution's door.
SOURCES
Boston Globe, CBS Boston, ABC News, Boston 25 News, CNN, Fox News Digital, Court TV, and archival reporting from the Washington Post, NBC News and Psychiatric News on the 2005 Andrea Yates reversal.
IF YOU NEED IT
National Maternal Mental Health Hotline: call or text 1-833-TLC-MAMA. Free, confidential, 24/7.
988 Suicide & Crisis Lifeline: call or text 988.
Keywords:
Lindsay Clancy trial, Duxbury Massachusetts, Plymouth Superior Court, postpartum psychosis, insanity defense, Kirk Heilbrun, Avram Mack, Kevin Reddington, Judge William Sullivan, Park Dietz, Andrea Yates, altruistic filicide, true crime podcast, trial coverage
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Lindsay Clancy Trial Day 18 + Karmelo Anthony Retrial Hearing Aug 22, 2026

Show notes

The Clancy defense rests after five days and ten witnesses. The prosecution's rebuttal opens with a psychiatrist who says depression is not psychosis. And in Texas, a retired judge has until Monday to decide whether Karmelo Anthony's murder conviction still exists.
First: where the Lindsay Clancy trial actually stands after Day 18, and every verdict legally on the table in Massachusetts. First degree, second degree, manslaughter, lack of criminal responsibility, hung jury. What each one actually means, why a finding of not criminally responsible does not mean she walks out the door, and the single word in the jury instruction that decides all of it.
Then: the Karmelo Anthony retrial hearing in Collin County. Judge John Roach lost the case by going on television. The original murder trial was held in a room with twenty-seven public seats and no livestream, which the court administrator admitted this week was available the entire time. And the unwritten "gentleman's agreement" between prosecutors and the defense collapsed mid-trial over whether Anthony could take the stand, which is why the jury never heard from him.
Both sides then opened the sealed background files on Austin Metcalf and Karmelo Anthony in open court. We cover both, and what each one legally would and would not have been allowed to prove.
Content advisory: this episode covers the killing of three children and the killing of a seventeen-year-old. Part one includes what Clancy told her children during the killings, testified to publicly for the first time this week.
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Lindsay Clancy Day 17 Recap: Chaplain Testimony & What the Jury Never Heard Aug 21, 2026

Show notes

Day 17 was the shortest day of the Lindsay Clancy trial and possibly the day that decides it.
One witness. Sheila Cavanaugh, a board-certified chaplain at Brigham and Women's Hospital who has visited Lindsay Clancy roughly 200 times since her three children were killed. She was there the day after. She was there when they pulled the breathing tube out on January 31, 2023, and Clancy's first words were that she was glad her children were safe. And she was there when Clancy described a persistent male voice that told her if she did not follow the command, neither she nor her children would be safe.
That date matters. The Commonwealth's timeline says the first report of voices came on February 6. The chaplain just moved it up six days, and the defense now has two sources placing the voice earlier than the prosecution's story allows.
Then Jennifer Sprague got up and ran the sharpest cross of the week: you wrote down everything else, so why is the voice not in your notes?
Outside, about 300 women in pink stood silent on the courthouse lawn in a demonstration called Stand in Peace, organized by a woman who drove down from Maine. Shirts that said "She Needed Help." Applause for a defense attorney.
And after the jury went home before lunch, the lawyers stayed and had the most consequential argument of the entire trial: what instructions the jury gets. Involuntary intoxication, in or out. Involuntary manslaughter as a lesser charge, in or out. First degree, second degree, or both. Those three answers determine the shape of every possible verdict in this case, and not one juror was in the room to hear it.
Plus: why Judge Sullivan pulled every juror aside individually for the first time in 17 days, what Dr. Phillip Resnick's filicide research has to do with Friday's testimony, why the Commonwealth stacking three rebuttal experts tells you something, and a Reality Check on what happens when a murder trial becomes a movement.
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/we-saw-the-devil-a-true-crime-podcast--4433638/support.
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