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Lyle Seigler Mar 20, 2023

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In this episode, Brett sits down with the Northwest Florida Water Management District’s executive director – Lyle Seigler. They discuss Hurricane Michael recovery; springs restoration and protection efforts; the district’s relationship to the regulated community; and what happened to change a town in Walton County from the county seat to a trivia question. To see tools used by the Northwest Florida Water Management District to track Hurricane Michael damage and recovery go here. https://nwfwater.com/water-resources/hurricane-michael/ To learn more about the district’s spring restoration and preservation efforts, head here. https://nwfwater.com/water-resources/springs/ To reach out to Lyle directly, email him at: Lyle.Seigler@nwfwater.com Our theme song is “Doing Work For Free”, by Bo Spring Band (Apple Music) (Spotify) (Pandora) Transcript speaker:Welcome to Water For Fighting, where we discuss the past, present, and future of Water and Florida with the people who make it happen. I’m your host, Brett Cypher. I spent over 20 years working with and getting to know the people who made Water Their Life’s Work. And I created this podcast to allow you, the listener to get to know them as well. Before we get to today’s special guest, I want to give a shout out to podcast reviewers Erigon349 and Elizabeth Alia. Erigon, thanks for listening. I’ll keep working hard to bring good people and their wealth of experience to you. So stay tuned. And to Elizabeth, those folks out west are lucky to have such a brilliant attorney and professor and a learned from, but we miss you back so come see us soon. Now I wonder the conversation. I think you’re going to like today’s guest, Laugh Seaguller. Laugh is currently the executive director of the Northwest Florida Water Management District, but he also happens to be my dear friend. He’s a native of Walt County in the Panhandle, with his family being from the county’s original county seat, a place called Uchiana. He’s the son of a lifelong fishing game warden, and he’s dedicated his life to the entire career to public service and roles such as County Administrator for Walton County. However, he spent most of his career with the Florida Department of Transportation. Laal, what a unique pleasure it is to have a conversation with you today. Welcome my brother. It’s a pleasure to be with you, Brett. Thank you for the opportunity. Laal, do you say that you grew up in Uchiana or Diffuniax Pranks? Uchiana. Uchiana it is. We’ll hold true to the original settlement and the county seat. British Presbyterians and they settled there. Uchianna was the county seat beginning in 1845 and that was the year that Florida received at Statehood. Up until 1885 when the courthouse burned and it probably comes as no surprise to you being in Walden County, it was an act of arson. The county seat then moved to the Funiac Springs. My grandmother’s maiden name was McClean. And in 1847 he served as president of the Florida Senate. I love people hearing stories about these places in Florida. They probably don’t know much about everyone. I think that at least that lives in North Florida knows Diffini X Springs, but I bet they don’t. But you and Brad Drake are the only folks that I know of that talk about Uchiana and it being the original county seat outside of here. Brad Drake and now representative Shane Abbotna, That’s right. Well I mentioned in the introduction you’re the son of a fishing game officer right? Absolutely dad served 32 years with what was then the Florida Game and Fish Commission. He was also a Colonel in the Army National Guard right? Very much so he was very much the Colonel, love and discipline came hand in hand with dad. That’s what I was going to ask you. Tell me a little bit about your dad and growing up with officer, an army officer, and what that led to you in terms of your connection to the natural world around you as well. Well, what that looked like day to day there at home, he was very much accustomed to being in charge. So when he came through the door, Mother would always remind him that the orders stop here. And so he coined Mother as the Pentagon, and obviously I agreed. So whether we were working around homebreath in the field, hunting, or the way we were or occasionally on the water, that is still not only a passion for the natural world, but also a deep-seated commitment. And I’ll say an obligation to be a good steward of what God has entrusted us with. So out in public, I finally recall instances where someone would ask Dad about pond management or ask him about the river condition. And I would give close attention to every detail because I could envision myself being just like daddy. Back in that day with the Game and Fish Commission, when Dad started in 1967, you actually worked both sides of the agency, a law enforcement and fisheries management. So, with that being said, Dad was truly my hero and I’ll never be the godly example that he demonstrated in each step of my parents smile in the way I conduct myself both partially and professionally. Was part of that growing up with him and seeing him as that example. Was that did he instill that interest in water in the environment as well? Or was it more of a I want to be like the kernel? And so I better pay close attention. You said you were paying close attention. Was that the reason why or independently I mean, you had no choice, but you live outside here. Yes, to both, Brett. We’re so blessed with the resources that we have here in the Panhandle. And so I had a passion for everything outdoors from an early age, but also as you stated, I saw the success of the kernel of Dad. And obviously I wanted to be just like Dad. And so because of that, because of that example, service has really been an integral part of your life. Was that something that your parents encouraged in you or did that sink in? And I know I’m asking to similar questions, but they’re distinct in the way of you’re interested in the natural world and the other part is you’re interested in public service because you’ve been in public service for 30 years now, right? Absolutely. The Christian service values and foundation that both mom and dad Demonstrated they were very much godly parents and so that that level of service that expectation that was that was where that stemmed Often described the job of county administrator city manager as the worst jobs in government Sometimes I get a quiet nod and sometimes I just get a laugh from some you spent as the Walton County Administrator. I assume that you can attest to the fact that it is not the best job in government. Yes, Brett, you’ll probably get both a laugh and a nod from it when we talk about the County Administrator role. So I will substitute worst job with most challenging because politics and personalities and preferences and at times overwhelming. However, that role was a very fulfilling job as well. We were able to see immediate positive impacts in the lives of those that we served and loved. And so would that be and said whether it was health, welfare or safety, it was fulfilling to see those projects come to fruition. out your public service career. A lot of times it seems that folks get into public service and often you don’t get to see the end product. You’re governing but it doesn’t feel like you’re doing something tangible. So that must be a good feeling. I know it has been for me and the times when I got to enjoy roles that actually produce something tangible. County Administration to DOT to DEP to the water management district is it seems like all of those lend themselves to that that kind of tangible end product. Each of those positions of service lend to that and when we see the lives of those once again that we live around that we are related to and the folks that we love. When we see those lives impacted in a positive way and we can see those projects in place. That is a blessing. I want to get to the ones because you and I, obviously you and I have shared history at the Water Management District and quite a bit of it. I’ll get to that in a little bit, but I want to pause because I don’t know the one place where I don’t know much about what you did was when you went to DEP and that was in the Panama City office. West Florida office for DEP during that exact same time. What did your role entail out of the Panama City office there? When you and I met around Christmas of 2016 my current role was administrator for both Panama City and Tallahassee for DEP Northwest District. Sean Hamilton served as the Northwest Secretary Hamilton and so my focus was the regulated community and compliance but also heavy on the outreach side. I remember a specific conversation that Sean and I had and he requested that I look at strengthening existing relationships repairing broken relationships and creating new relationships within the Panhandle. When I met you and it was first we had a conversation on the phone that I recall. And then you came in and I think I knew within, you were having lunch, you were having Christmas lunch that day. And I came in and you and I sit there in the office and had a brief conversation. Yeah. And you said, hey, let’s move on. I think I knew within 45 seconds of talking to you that we needed to work together So that was probably one of the easiest decisions that are made. You’ve been a blessing to me, Brent. Let’s move from DEP. And now you’ve agreed to come to work at the district. You’re hired as the director of the Division of Regulatory Services. Quickly move you to Chief of Staff, because I can’t live without you. And now, the executive director. I don’t know the answer to this question. But share with our listeners what your general management philosophy has been because that’s why I like to begin with. Brett, you and I have worked together and we agree upon that leadership style and that is that of a servant leader. And when I say that, what comes to mind is active listening and awareness and commitment to growth and community building, all on a solid foundation of integrity and respect I am committed to demonstrating genuine love, care and concern to one of the most appreciable assets we have and that’s our team members. That’s the men and women out there each day doing the job. And you have what about 110, right? Are we still a little right around there? Yes, we have around 110 folks to manage the 16 counties. And I’m committed to them. I’m committed to the resource. They are by far the brightest and the best. I’ve said that many times. myself with the best of the best. And courage and faith are my core values, as you well know. Being clear is kind. I subscribe to addressing whatever the issue is directly. However doing so in a courteous and respectful and professional way. I’ve said before, I saw front in a strong back and that helps you to deal with the difficult issues, whatever in uncomfortable situations and conversations with focus. Let’s talk about that a bit. It’s one of the reasons why I think that folks in Northwest for are lucky to have you and that you’re lucky to have those 110 folks because you have a place that’s unique that you have 110 folks pulling in the same direction that care about the same thing. You have a phenomenal board but some people believe that government’s relationship to the regulated community part of what you have to do is still has a pretty significant regulatory function. But a lot of people believe that that relationship should be by its very nature adversarial. Why do you disagree with that? You explain who you are and I think that’s pretty clear. But how do you see your relationship with your responsibility to the law but also to service? and solutions stem from positive relationships. And yes, we’re going to hold true to the integrity, to the intent of the rule, but we’re also going to invest in the lives of those that we serve, and we’re going to be solution oriented. Let’s move forward to a bit to some of the most difficult moments that we had together at the Water Management District, and that you are still dealing with, in the moment. Let’s go back in time October 10th, 2018 Hurricane Michael comes and slams dead smack into the panhandle. It leveled everything in its path, tens of thousands of acres of district-owned and district managed property. I was driving through there, you and I were just talking before, we started recording about Camping last weekend. Pointing out to my daughter at still the the broken matchsticks of of trees strewn throughout this area. That’s always going to be with us, it seems. But tell me about some of the progress you’ve made and recovered the district’s part of these lands in this region. You did it so well in front of few weeks, tell us a little bit about that progress. Brett on October the 10th of 2018, Hurricane Michael impacted 87,130 acres of district land. That’s 41% of our holdings here in the Panhandle. As you stated, the overstory was decimated. The district worked closely with DEP and DEM to analyze the effects on floodplain changes and to identify debris removal for the waterways of the panhandle. During the past fiscal year, the district conducted Hurricane debris cleanup on 1800 acres and I’m talking about an Econphina Creek, Shippoala River, Appalachia-Cola River and we’ve repaired 12 miles of management roads. We’ve conducted just over 12,000 acres of prescribed burning. The district continues to remove hurricane debris from our impacted areas in this current physical year. We’ve cleaned up 1500 acres. The district also plans to, the district also plans to plant at least 550,000 long leaf pine trees on 750 acres during this physical year. prescribed fire to restore habitats to pre-Hurricane conditions. I am thankful to an amazing governor that is committed to and demonstrated what response and recovery looks like. As you and I have agreed upon and discussed many times, we have a passionate group of men and women that are committed to these efforts. Let me sidetrack you a bit from the hurricane itself. It’s a subset that I think a lot of people don’t realize how many trees, whether it’s from Hurricane Michael, but even in general, as part of your restoration strategy at the district, that includes a lot of lay management activities. One of those things includes planning of trees and the district plants about, I think on average, about a million pine trees a year. Is that still correct? That is correct. stone of our 20th million long leaf. Wow. It’s incredible. The things that that’s the small dedicated group can accomplish under these circumstances. But it also speaks to the support that you’ve gotten. You mentioned that from the governor to the secretary to the legislature, someone ever saying no when the district asked for help. And so that’s been huge. Absolutely. Everyone has been very cooperative and moving forward. We plan to finish these recovery efforts a year early. While we’re sitting, it didn’t unplanned, but you and I met in Jackson County administration office and the conference room I’ve sat in many times that you’ve sat in many times meeting with members of the Jackson County Commission, meeting with their extremely talented County Administrator, Willand Daniels. And it’s fitting because I wanted to talk a little bit about Springs Restoration, Springs Protection. It’s been a priority of the district. It’s been a significant priority of the district and it’s boarded for many years going back well over, well over a decade. and those landmark resources like we’ll call it spring, like Jackson Blue here. Here in Jackson County with Jackson Blue, to begin with, we’ve implemented 33 agriculture, BMP projects on over 7,500 irrigated acres. And since 2013, we’ve had 144 projects that’s been implemented with 83 unique producers and of the 144 projects, 138 of them have been completed on 70,000 acres. And that nitrate reduction is estimated to be over 225,000 pounds of…

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Fred Aschauer Mar 13, 2023

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In this episode, Brett talks with well-known environmental attorney and former DEP general counsel, Fred Aschauer. They discuss Florida’s U.S. Supreme Court fight to save the Apalachicola River and Bay; growing up between Florida and New York; and how joining a heavy metal band led to a music scholarship and a haircut. To learn more about Florida’s case against Georgia in the U.S. Supreme Court, head here.First Special Master’s ReportSecond Special Master’s ReportFlorida’s Response to Second ReportMore Resources on the caseTo find out more about Fred’s environmental law practice.To get in touch with Fred directly, email him at: faschauer@llw-law.comOur theme song is “Doing Work For Free”, by Bo Spring Band (Apple Music) (Spotify) (Pandora) Transcript Speaker 1 00:00:08 Welcome to Water for Fighting, where I discussed the past, present, and future of water in Florida with the people who make it happen. I’m your host, Brett Ciphers. I’ve spent over 20 years working with and getting to know the people who’ve made water, their life’s work, and I created this podcast to allow you, the listener, to get to know them as well. Today’s my pleasure to introduce former general counsel at the Florida Department of Environmental Protection and current environmental law attorney at the Lewis Longman and Walker law firm, Fred Ash Ier. Fred grew up in Long Island, New York, and Port Charlotte here in Florida where he graduated high school. He went to Edison Community College on a music scholarship. More on that later. Fred’s a veteran of the US Army and would eventually graduate with honors from the Florida State University College of Law. Let’s join that conversation in progress. You’re, you’re a bonafide, uh, Florida boy now you’ve got, for the record, a Florida State Seminoles Correct. Shirt on, um, go Noles, but you have roots in New York and also Charlotte County down south. Um, how long have you been in Tallahassee at this point? Speaker 2 00:01:10 Oh, um, since 1997. Okay. So I, I, my wife and I have lived in Tallahassee longer than I lived anywhere else. We came here after the army to, to, for me to go to Florida State, went to Florida State, um, finished my undergrad. I had two year degree when I got here from, um, Edison Community College, now Edison State College. Um, came up here, studied business, and then went to law school, and then we just stayed. Man, it’s, it’s a great place to raise children. I is. Uh, and when we, when I graduated law school, we had our, our first son, uh, first son, first child, and, um, he was like three years old and it just, I got an offer from that firm and it just made sense. Speaker 1 00:01:50 And you have two grown boys, right? Speaker 2 00:01:52 I do. I Speaker 1 00:01:53 Do. Um, and so they were, so you were here when, when you got both of them, correct? Speaker 2 00:01:59 Well, um, so, you know, my family’s uni, it’s unique. So my oldest is actually adopted, and we adopted him when he was almost 10. That’s, so Frederick was Frederick’s two years younger. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So when we adopted Fred Lee, yes. Frederick, Fred Lee, a lot of Fred’s. Yep. Frederick. Yes. He did not make fun of George Foreman in my house, <laugh>. Um, so when we adopted Fred Lee, he was almost 10. He was nine, Frederick was seven. Mm-hmm. Um, he was, Fred Lee lived in Tampa at the time, so, okay. Yeah. Speaker 1 00:02:28 Tell me about growing up you, New York, Charlotte County. It’s a, it’s an old story. Uh, folks, you know, coming from somewhere else, you know, living here, but you kind of went a little bit of a back and Speaker 2 00:02:39 Forth to I did, I did. So, um, yeah, we moved to Charlotte County when I was seven. I was born on Long Island. Uh, I don’t, I honestly don’t remember much of that. I remember, you know, like living in an apartment, um, doing some fishing with my stepdad on Sundays. Speaker 1 00:02:56 Um, you need those fish. Did you? Speaker 2 00:02:58 I don’t know, know. I don’t <laugh> I don’t remember if we did <laugh>. Exactly. Um, so we moved to Charlotte County when I was seven. Um, and I lived there till I was 13. Then I, um, a couple years, a couple years before that, had met my biological father for the first time. So after sort of visiting with him a couple times back forth, uh, on a, what was at the time to be just a summer vacation with my biological father, I went up to New York and about halfway through called my mom and said, Hey, I’d live up to stay here. Speaker 1 00:03:35 Is that, I mean, not, I mean, the obvious awkwardness of having that conversation with your mom, but 13 years old is a rough age to move from one place to another, especially across the country. Speaker 2 00:03:49 So not really. Um, I mean, not, I, I, my mother meant the world to me, mother. My mother’s past my mother meant the world to me, but I, I was a 13 year old boy mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And, um, and you know, me, I’m a I’m, I can be a bit crazy <laugh> and, uh, you know, sort of rambunctious. And that’s my dad. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and that’s my dad. Um, and so I saw that, you know, and I saw that personality, and I was 13 year old boy. My mom had divorced my stepdad for what, at that point had been a few years. And so I was, um, I, I guess I was sort of looking for, you know mm-hmm. <affirmative> that in my life. And, um, I lived with my dad until I was 16, and then he decided to move to Florida too. <laugh>. Oh, there you go. So, so we, um, and that, that move was, um, it was, it was interesting. Speaker 2 00:04:42 My dad did not have a lot, and so we packed on everything that we had, he and I on a Greyhound, and we moved to Florida on a Greyhound, and I think it took us like four days to get to Charlotte County. Oh my goodness. From, from the Oh, yeah. Yeah. And we, we, we spent, we overnighted in like the Washington DC Greyhound, and I remember that. And it’s, it was <laugh> that was not a safe place. But my dad, um, my dad and I, I, I think everyone feels this way about their dad. My dad was a Marine, he was, you know, black belt and like TaeKwonDo, wherever, and I just viewed him as a certified badass. And so I did, I I, I recognized it as an unsafe place, but I did not feel unsafe. Sure, sure. You know, so, Speaker 1 00:05:22 Um, you mentioned fishing and I ma I was making fun of the river there. It was, we’re a podcast about water here and the environment. So, and you mentioned fishing. Was that something that you grew up doing with your Speaker 2 00:05:34 Dad? It, no, actually only with my stepdad. Okay. Um, and so after he, um, and my mom divorced, I really didn’t fist much after that. And, and now I don’t have the patience for it. Speaker 1 00:05:45 <laugh>, I hear you. I hear you. Um, I’m gonna read some names to you and you tell me what they have in common. Ronnie James dio, let me kill Mr. Cliff Burton John at Whistle Fred Ash Hour. Speaker 2 00:06:00 So, um, I actually only recognize a couple of them as Bass <laugh>. Uh, I guess I did not know that I, I’m not a big deal fan, I guess I didn’t know that Ronnie James, the played bass in the band. Speaker 1 00:06:14 Um, maybe he wasn’t good at it. I don’t Speaker 2 00:06:16 Know. I’m assuming he does by the list. Um, so he definitely Speaker 1 00:06:20 Did <laugh>. He could, Speaker 2 00:06:23 I dunno. Um, but yeah, they’re, they’re all, uh, myself included. Uh, well, I think they all, they’re all bass players, and a couple of them were heavy metal bass players, myself included. Speaker 1 00:06:33 Yeah. I mean, and some could be, you know, debatable, whether or not, you know, the who is, you know, I don’t think anybody would Speaker 2 00:06:39 Call it. Yeah, yeah. That’s what, yeah, I know. That’s why I qualified. But, but Metallica for sure, and that’s of, of the list of the list, he’s definitely, he was more of an idol. Speaker 1 00:06:47 So Motorheads not, Speaker 2 00:06:48 Not, no, no, no. I mean, it’s like Le me’s cool, but I just didn’t take him. Speaker 1 00:06:55 I hear you. Okay, fair enough. Um, I mean, I, I imagine the record sales speak for themselves between Metallica and Motorhead, so Yeah, Speaker 2 00:07:04 I, I’d say so. Close Speaker 1 00:07:05 That too. Um, but I really ask that because trying to follow your, your biography here, um, you know, across time. And so you actually go to school originally on a music scholarship, is that right? At, at Edison? Speaker 2 00:07:19 I did. At, at, that was my, so my first two years were at Edison Community College. Um, I, I bought a guitar when I was 17 or 18 years old. And, um, I was, you know, plucking out the strings in my bedroom and, and not doing very well at that. I was, I definitely was not going to teach myself how to play. Wow. Um, and at the time, I was hanging out with some folks who were in a band. They were in a band, uh, and they, like many bands in Charlotte County, they rented a storage unit and, you know, put all the eggshells, the egg cartons on the walls. And, um, and I would go hang out with them outside their storage unit. We’d listen to them play, just hang out and, uh, probably drink beer, although I don’t think I was of age at the time, but mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. So Speaker 1 00:08:08 Unfortunate. Speaker 2 00:08:09 Yeah. So bass players, bass players are not easy to find. And so the band was actually without a bass player. And they asked me a, after finding out that I had a guitar, and I was starting to learn that they offered to sell me a bass and speaker so I could practice with them under a condition, though. They, and it was the, and the condition actually led to me leaving the band. So they made their bed and they slept in it as well, <laugh>. So they, they re they were like, look, you need to take lessons. We, you have to get good, or at least, you know, <laugh> be able to keep time. And, and, but you need to do that quickly, so you need to take lessons. Um, and so I did, and I started taking lessons from this guy named Jay Hek, uh, on Pine Island. Speaker 2 00:08:56 So I would drive from Charlotte County down, go to Pine Island, take lessons with him there, and he was a, um, he was professional musician, uh, not like, you know, like a recording artist mm-hmm. <affirmative>. But, uh, he made his living playing music on the weekends in the local music scene and giving lessons. Um, and he played jazz music, and he started introducing me to, um, jazz and classical music. Um, and I really took an interest in it. And there’s a jazz bass named John Patagucci, who is, I mean, when I heard him, I was completely blown away by what he could do with a bass. And, um, so he started introducing me to Jazz and Classical, and I started to get interested in that. And then after only about six months, he said, Hey, why don’t you go, the, the local community college has a pretty good music program, and they offer scholarships. And I was like, okay. Um, you know, I was, I was young than Tom. I didn’t know about it. Right. So I agreed, and I went down and I tried out, and again, remember basis are hard to find right? Speaker 1 00:10:06 <laugh>. Speaker 2 00:10:07 So I go down and, um, I, I do my little audition, and they gave me a scholarship. And so I started playing there, and within six months, I started actually making money, and I left that, I left the band because I wanted to pursue other music Speaker 1 00:10:21 Interests. And that’s the standup base at that point. Is that Speaker 2 00:10:24 Right? Right, right, right. Yeah. Wow. And if I ever picked it back up again, that’s what I would do. I would get a standup base. Speaker 1 00:10:29 Yeah. I mean, that’s, it is pretty cool. So obviously, uh, classically trained, uh, musician goes from music scholarship, uh, to the United States Army. Just how much time did it take them to cut all that hair of yours from your heavy metal days? Or did you, or did you still have your heavy metal hair at this point? Speaker 2 00:10:48 Um, no, I did not. So, um, that’s at some point I cut it off. I, I did have long hair. I had, um, I don’t know. So a a basis you left off was Jason Nutted, who replaced Cliff mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. And, uh, at the time, Jason had the sides of his head shaved, uh, basically a Mohawk. Right. The sides of his head, shaved top and, and, and, uh, back long. And I, I had that haircut, um, when I was playing in the band within my first year at Edison, I, I cut my hair and got a, you know, a quote unquote normal haircut. So whether it would’ve been long or short though, you know, I mean, you, you were, you were in process too. It doesn’t take that long to cut your Speaker 1 00:11:30 Hair. It does not. No. Yeah. They don’t, um, they don’t, uh, they don’t waste a lot of time. So you meet your lovely wife mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, while you’re in the Army in Germany, correct? Correct. And, and so you bring that plus the Army College Fund, I assume, and the GI Bill, uh, back home with you, you said something about studying bus. I know you went to law school. Did you start studying business at first? Speaker 2 00:11:53 I did. I did. I’m a pretty practical guy. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I think, you know, that we’ve been friends for a while. Um, and so at some point in the Army, my, my wife will tell you, she convinced me to go to law school, and that may very well be true, like in, you know, reconstructing it. I probably take more credit than I deserve. But, um, my wife, uh, was a big proponent of me going to law school, um, because I’m smart and I like to argue, like that’s <laugh> a very common Speaker 1 00:12:23 Theme. So Yeah. If you, Speaker 2 00:12:25 Yes. Um, and so I knew, I mean, when I went to undergrad, I knew I wanted to go to law school. So undergrad, it was never, ever about a, an undergraduate degree. I, I really could not have cared what undergraduate degree Okay. That I studied. However, I’m practical. And I said, if the law, if I don’t get in or if law doesn’t work out, I want a degree that I think is useful. So I studied finance. Speaker 1 00:12:46 That’s very practical. I assumed you lost a bet when you said you wanted to go to law school after, but, uh, but no, I suppose a lot of folks reach a point when they’re pretty young and they’re teenagers and say, I wanna be, I want to go be an attorney. But yours was as you’re in undergrad, is that what you’re Speaker 2 00:13:05 Saying? No, it was when I was in the Army when Speaker 1 00:13:07 The arm, Speaker 2 00:13:07 Oh, sorry. Yeah, yeah. When I was in the Army. So the, the undergraduate degree was a means to an end. Okay. Yeah. Speaker 1 00:13:12 When you and I met you were the general counsel at D E P and you were running the state’s lawsuit for the department, correct. For against Georgia and the US Supreme Corps, I believe it’s original action 142, if I remember correctly. Uh, I have trouble to this day thinking about this case objectively, but I wanted to have you in, I wanted you to talk a little bit about that, but, um, but I’d like, are you willing to discuss Florida’s basis for the case? A little bit of kind of level setting for folks that don’t know much about it? Speaker 2 00:13:45 Yeah, absolutely. I, I’m with you. Uh, as far as objectivity goes, so full disclaimer, I do not see the case objectively <laugh>. Right? Like, as a lawyer, you’re supposed to see both sides, right. But I was ultimately the state of Florida, you know, through the governor’s office, through, uh, sec, the Secretary John Stevenson at the time is really sort of behind the, the, the, the policy, the why for the case, right? I’m, as the general counsel sort of making sure the train stay on time, if you will, making sure the state’s getting what it, what it pays for, right? Right. Make testing the lawyers, I mean, these are all brilliant lawyers. Latham Watkins was the law firm represent…

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Julie Espy Mar 07, 2023

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In this episode, Brett sits down with national water quality data expert – Julie Espy. They discuss her rise through the ranks at the Florida Department of Environmental Protection; whether Florida’s Basin Management Action Plans (BMAPs) are still the best tool to remediate water quality degradation; and why one should never, ever, call her a SoonerTo learn more about the state’s Basin Management Action Plans, go here: https://floridadep.gov/dear/water-quality-restoration/content/basin-management-action-plans-bmapsTo find out more about SAS, visit their webpage here: https://www.sas.com/en_us/home.htmlTo reach out to Julie directly, email her at: Julie.espy@sas.com Our theme song is “Doing Work For Free”, by Bo Spring Band (Apple Music) (Spotify) (Pandora) Transcript Speaker 1 00:00:15 Welcome to Water for Fighting, where we discuss the past, present, and future of water in Florida with the people who make it happen. I’m your host, Brett Cyphers. I’ve spent over 20 years working with and getting to know the people who’ve made water, their life’s work, and I created this podcast to allow you, the listener, to get to know them as well. This episode of Water for Fighting is brought to you by Florida Water Advocates, Florida Water Advocates, where we’re tackling the water resource challenges of the future Today, I think you’re all really gonna like today’s guest, Julie Espy. Julie May be an Oklahoma native, but she’s an honorary Florida woman since she graduated from college and moved here in 1994. Julie worked her way up the ranks in the Florida Department of Environmental Protection over 23 years, finishing as the director of the Division of Environmental Assessment, and she’s now the National Director of Water Quality and Environmental Data Solutions at sass. Let’s get right into it. So you grew up in Oklahoma as the daughter of two Oklahoma State Cowboys. Is calling someone a sooner in your family fighting words?Speaker 2 00:01:17 Uh, absolutely. My dad pretty much wears orange and black or garnet and gold every single day. Uh, so yes, he would, uh, he would definitely disown me if I, uh, called him a sooner.Speaker 1 00:01:30 Well, tell me what that, that was like growing up in Oklahoma, where, well, where was your father from? Because you said he was in the military as a helicopter pilot, is that right?Speaker 2 00:01:38 My grandfather. YourSpeaker 1 00:01:39 Grandfather, yeah. Okay.Speaker 2 00:01:40 So my dad grew up kind of all over, you know, in Germany. Uh, he was born in New Hampshire, although he never really lived there, I don’t think. Um, and he has siblings, so they were all born in different parts of the world. Uh, but my grandfather and grandmother settled in Latin, Oklahoma. It is a, um, big army facility, Fort Si. Uh, so it’s a big, oh my goodness, <laugh>. It’s a big training facility, so almost anyone who’s ever been in the army has gone through Fort Sill. I, uh, I’ve, I can go in anywhere and find somebody who’s probably been through there.Speaker 1 00:02:14 Yeah, me too. I was in, I was in the Army, but I managed to, uh, Dodge Fort Sill, thankfully.Speaker 2 00:02:19 So I’ll say lucky you <laugh>. Right? I mean, I loved Oklahoma. Um, it was, it was totally different, obviously than Florida, but, uh, good people there. Southwest Oklahoma is beautiful in its own way. Um, very different. Oklahoma in a lot of ways is sort of like Florida. It’s very diverse. Northeast Oklahoma’s hills of the Ozarks, lots of trees and water. Southwest Oklahoma, not so much.Speaker 1 00:02:45 That was gonna be one of my questions is do they in fact have trees, water and trees in southwest Oklahoma?Speaker 2 00:02:51 Um, not too much, really. Uh, you hear the, you know, the song Oklahoma and the Open Plains, it’s very much so, uh, kind of western Oklahoma and certainly southwest Oklahoma. It’s one of the reasons why I left is because there isn’t a lot of water. I, I knew I wanted to study biology and water ecology and those types of things. So when I graduated college, I was like, okay, I gotta find somewhere to land.Speaker 1 00:03:15 Well, let’s talk about that because, um, I saw your, I saw your bio and so you studied biology in college at, what was the,Speaker 2 00:03:22 What was it, Cameron University?Speaker 1 00:03:23 Cameron University, home of the Fighting Aggies. Aggies Fair.Speaker 2 00:03:27 Like the, it was formerly an agricultural school.Speaker 1 00:03:30 And, and so you trained as a biologist and your first job out of college is as a chemist, <laugh>, is that right? KindSpeaker 2 00:03:37 Of, yes.Speaker 1 00:03:37 Well, tell me about that.Speaker 2 00:03:39 Uh, so when I moved to Tallahassee, I, you know, one of the first jobs I got was at a private lab here in, in Tallahassee that serviced, um, a lot of the municipalities and things like that. Uh, so I just kind of took the first science job, obviously, that I could, you know, get my hands on. And we did all of like, nutrients and biochemical oxygen demand, you know, bods and fetal coliforms and all of those types of analyses in that laboratory. So I learned a lot. Yeah. Yes.Speaker 1 00:04:08 So you start in a chemistry lab, and then you get your first job at d e p. What year was that?Speaker 2 00:04:14 98. 1998. AndSpeaker 1 00:04:16 That’s the biology section? Yes. Your first job at d e P was in the biology section, right? Correct. Yeah. And you said it was 1998? Yes. And you were a bug picker as you put it. Um, what on earth is a bug picker?Speaker 2 00:04:34 Yes. Um, well, uh, one of the types of samples that they take into the laboratory is something that’s collected out in the field. Um, and it consists of basically leaves and grass and sand and all those types of things. But what they’re really trying to get at are the macroinvertebrates or the little bugs that live in the streams, in the lakes, uh, because those organisms are, they integrate water quality over time. So it gives you a, a better picture of what’s going on in the system as far as water quality conditions than maybe just taking a one-time sample and getting kind of that snapshot. The thought is that the macroinvertebrates, you know, give you that picture or that, you know, picture of water quality health over time. So my job was to sort through the leaves and the dirt and all that kind of stuff, and pick out the bugs that then we handed off to folks who would do identifications because, uh, certain ones are good bugs and certain ones are indicators of maybe poor water quality condition. So that was kind of what I did. WhatSpeaker 1 00:05:38 Would be the, the application at that point for that, that data in terms of the type of bug?Speaker 2 00:05:44 Yeah, so the, um, the stream condition index was a, or still is, uh, a way to tell you which streams are healthy. So they have a, a healthy ecosystem, meaning that the water quality is healthy. And if you had poor organisms, you know, organisms that could tolerate water quality or water pollution, um, then those would be streams that, you know, would, might, might get targeted for, say, restoration or those types of a, uh, activities.Speaker 1 00:06:12 You move from there to the watershed assessment section. Is that right? That’s correct, yeah. And what do, what, what was the change there for you in terms of what you did on a day-to-daySpeaker 2 00:06:22 Basis? Yeah, so that’s, like I just said, it’s kind of the next step, right? So we’re, you know, collecting the data in the laboratory, we’re analyzing it and turning out the results, and then those results, you know, end up in actions. Um, and so by moving to the watershed assessment section, that was really what we did, is we took that data and did an evaluation. You know, we looked at the water quality data, we looked at the cis or the stream condition index samples, and, uh, did an assessment to evaluate all the different waters in the state. Um, really that’s like the basis for, uh, water quality restoration in the state. Um,Speaker 1 00:07:00 Okay. And so you’re, you’re literally taking it is what I wanted to, to get to, which was the long train of how you go from looking at, uh, some water body or natural system and saying, is there something wrong with it? If there is, what is it? And then, uh, once you know what it is, how do you fix it? That’s right. Uh, and so you’re at, you’re at step two, but we get to I think, step three in the process, which is by the time I met you and when I met you, you were the director of, uh, what’s affectionately known as deer. Yes. But it’s the division of Environmental Assessment andSpeaker 2 00:07:35 Restoration.Speaker 1 00:07:35 And Restoration. Yes. Uh, my apo, well, ours gotta come from somewhere <laugh>. Um, and it’s, I consider it, and somebody may argue with me, but they’re wrong. Um, but I consider that one of the four hardest jobs in the entire department. Uh, which I mean, it’s, it’s a tough one, right? Yeah.Speaker 2 00:07:53 It’s definitely a lot to take on. Um, you know, we’re trying to identify waters, um, you know, some people want their water identified as impaired and others don’t want that water body identified as impaired <laugh>. So you’re always kind of battling that, and we’re trying to do it for the entire state, you know, so it was a big job, um, and trying to develop, you know, the right water quality restoration strategies, um, cuz you know, one size doesn’t fit all. It was definitely challenging, but I, I really loved the challenge when I was there.Speaker 1 00:08:24 And it’s, it’s a more, that’s more, uh, public facingSpeaker 2 00:08:28 Absolutely.Speaker 1 00:08:29 Farther the drop, especially. It’s gotta be weird for na people who do science for a living to be in the position where now you’re the, you’re very public facing and ISpeaker 2 00:08:38 Got very used to public speaking in that job. Yeah, absolutely.Speaker 1 00:08:41 And, and so, okay, so we’ve identified, basically you worked in all, you know, all three of the major steps there. Uh, but talk me through the process. So take a, take a water body or some natural system and talk me through that beginning, the beginning to the end. And may, and maybe it’s one that, you know, over your, over your time, you may have seen, you know, from the beginning to, to bmap implementation or base management action plan implementation.Speaker 2 00:09:06 Yeah. Oh, wow. Um, there are several. I mean, I could just, I’ll, I’ll touch on we’ll, Callis, since that’s really, uh, how we kind, it’s good. That’s best. Yeah, that’s a good one. Right. Um, I have, you know, we monitored COLA for years back, you know, when I was in the biology section, we had routine monitoring. We did out there on a quarterly basis. We were collecting water and biology and looking at plants and algae and all of the different ecosystems and trying to do a really good assessment of what was going on. Um, all of that data got used by one of our modelers at D E P who developed a, a watershed model, um, to determine the total maximum daily load or the, the maximum amount of nutrients that that system, you know, could, uh, assimilate or use and still be healthy. And then, uh, went into the basin management action plan development phase where we take that TMDL target and determine what are the best activities and projects and all of the different things that can be done in the watershed to restore it to a healthy condition. And, and actually COLA is a system that I’ve seen change over my time here in Tallahassee from when I first moved here in 1994. So that one’s been really, you know, kind of fun and interesting to, to see through the whole process. Um, ac you know, the b m a’s been in place now for several years. You, you’re very familiar with that. And, um, we are starting to see improvements in water quality. So that’s been a, a real, you know, like I said, a good one to watch.Speaker 1 00:10:39 Tell me about the, the, the development of the TMDL itself. And you mentioned a model and, and models come in for, uh, a certain amount of criticism, and I understand it’s cuz we’re, it’s not, it’s not measurements like when you’re doing your, the, the watershed assessment side of things or Right. Or bug picking <laugh> where you’re, you’re looking at real, you something real, right? Uh, a real measurement where you can say, okay, this is what was happening before and this is what, uh, say the, the total nitrogen level is, you know, at the vent now, um, the advent of the meric nutrient criteria kind of put, uh, a solid line mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, in that process, most of them are what 0.35 milligrams per liter. We’re talking aboutSpeaker 2 00:11:25 Nitrogen for springsSpeaker 1 00:11:26 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, right? For springs mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, and some are a little different, but not much different. Tell me about the differences, how, how you des determine the differences there when you look at, uh, say we’ll call spring versus one that has maybe a, a lower tmd.Speaker 2 00:11:42 Yeah. Well, so we kind of, you know, when COLA was developed, we didn’t have numeric nutrient criteria quite yet, but it ended up, you know, cuz it actually has a lower level than the, than the numeric nutrient criteria. But we knew when we developed numeric nutrient criteria that we needed something, we needed a number to put, you know, as a starting place. And then when you go into TMDL development, you’re really looking at the specifics, right? Because as numeric nutrient criteria were developed, it was, like I said, we’re trying to cover the whole state, right? Um, so you do the best you can to develop the appropriate criteria that would apply, you know, for all streams or all springs in the state. And then as you do a tmdl, you’re really looking at, well, what are the specific uses, uh, land uses or activities in the watershed and trying to establish the appropriate number for that particular water body. And that’s really, you know, that’s where the rubber meets the road, so to speak, I think.Speaker 1 00:12:40 And so you, you start with the model, you start with your total maximum daily load. And as you’re moving, uh, toward the BM map, obviously you ha you mean models are, you know, are predictive in nature. But, uh, I continue to hear, um, and I know that Moda Homan has talked a lot about it in public, uh, venues, which is adaptive management. Can you tell me, when you look at something that looks like a hard and fast number, right? And you’re doing restoration of a place like, uh, we’ll springs in the we’ll river, uh, where does adaptive management fit into that picture?Speaker 2 00:13:15 Right? Um, you know, so in a basin management action plan, you know, as, as, as we’ve developed that program over time and, and just in literature and research that has been done, you know, certain activities that are gonna have beneficial nutrient reductions, right? What that number is, is not, you know, super well defined. It’s not black and white, but you know, you’re gonna get a reduction. You have some idea of what that reduction will consist of. And so as you are applying those activities and those restoration strategies in the bmap, you’re also monitoring and saying, you know, is, is that matching what I expect to see? And so if it’s not, then more may need to be done to, to achieve that tmdl or maybe less, you know, maybe you’re getting a, a better benefit from an activity than what was predicted or what was known at the time. And that’s really what I think, you know, what what is meant by adaptive management, you’re trying, you know, the goal is to achieve the tmdl, get the healthy condition, and you’re doing the best you can to get there as time goes on.Speaker 1 00:14:20 And so the B M A P process has come under some criticism. I mean, I don’t know, have you ever dealt with a bmap that wasn’t criticized <laugh>? I haven’t, I haven’t…

Full show notes at the publisher

Frank Bernardino Feb 28, 2023

Show notes

In Episode 4, Brett sits down with his partner: long time water policy and budget guru, Frank Bernardino. They talk about the history of wetland mitigation in Florida; the water resource funding gap and how he proposes we close it; and his life as a young song writer in Miami.

Here’s the best way to reach Frank: Frank@anfieldflorida.com

If you’d like to learn more about what Frank and I do at Anfield Consulting, check us out at: www.anfieldflorida.com

To learn more about how Florida regulates wetland mitigation, and stormwater in general, check out this handy Florida Department of Environmental Protection page.

Check out a few resources explaining “SB 444”, the Water Protection and Sustainability Program and Trust Fund from 2004

Data and analysis regarding the “needs gap” from the Office of Economic and Demographic Research

Our theme song is “Doing Work For Free”, by Bo Spring Band (Apple Music) (Spotify) (Pandora)

Eric Draper Feb 20, 2023

Show notes

In this episode, Brett talks with one of the most renowned environmental advocates in Florida – Eric Draper. Draper is most known for his advocacy on behalf of Everglades protection and the Florida Forever land-buying programs, but he recently served a successful tour as the Director of the Florida State Parks Service. They talk about effective environmental advocacy; Eric’s continued concern about the global effects of climate change; and the importance of developing partnerships instead of enemies. Get a transcript of this episode.

Here’s the best way to reach Eric. Email, LinkedIN

Here’s a link to the Florida Forever land buying program statute. Florida Forever Land Acquisition Program

As advertised, Eric has dedicated an entire career to the environment, and he was recognized for that by Audubon in 2021. Eric Wins 2021 Audubon Florida’s Teddy Roosevelt Award

Here’s a link to one program that Eric is excited about these days.Florida Wildlife Corridor Act

Our theme song is “Doing Work For Free”, by Bo Spring Band (Apple Music) (Spotify) (Pandora)

Brian Armstrong Feb 13, 2023

Show notes

In this episode, Brett sits down with Southwest Florida Water Management District’s Executive Director – Brian Armstrong. Armstrong has a career in water management spanning 25 years, nearly all of them at the same water management district. They discuss growing up on the water; the importance of alternative water supplies; who’s cooler, geologists or engineers; and an incredible story of lake and wetland restoration that doesn’t get nearly the recognition it deserves.

Water Wars History

Southern Water Use Caution Area

Facilitating Agricultural Resource Management Systems (FARMS)

Springs Restoration and Protection Program

Our theme song is “Doing Work For Free”, by Bo Spring Band (Apple Music) (Spotify) (Pandora)

Henry Dean Feb 06, 2023

Show notes

In the very first Water for Fighting podcast, Brett has a conversation with the Godfather of Florida water management – Henry Dean. Dean currently serves on the St. Johns County board of county commissioners, but his thirty-year career in water resource protection spans five governors, two water management districts, and various other committees and agencies. They discuss the dawn of water management districts and the Florida Department of Environmental Protection; management styles; and a career ultimately defined by its successful relationships. Download a transcript of this episode.

ELMS Committee – (Environmental Land Management Study)

Comprehensive Everglades Restoration Plan (CERP)

Kissimmee River Restoration Project

Indian River Lagoon (IRL) Restoration Program

St. Johns County Commission

Our theme song is "Doing Work For Free", by Bo Spring Band (Apple Music) (Spotify) (Pandora)

Trailer Feb 01, 2023

Show notes

Mark Twain is said to have quipped, “Whiskey is for drinking, and water is for fighting." And in Florida, the subject of water can bring out the strongest of opinions. The Water for Fighting podcast will discuss the past, present, and future of water in Florida with the people who make it happen. The host, Brett Cyphers spent over 20 years working throughout Florida government getting to know the people who’ve made water their life’s work and created this podcast to allow you, the listener, to get to know them as well.

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