Water For Fighting

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Matt Leopold Jul 03, 2023

Show notes

In this episode, Brett gets to spend some time with the former top attorney for the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency – Matt Leopold. In addition to his time at the EPA, Matt served as General Counsel at the Florida Department of Environmental Protection; handled environmental issues for Governor Jeb Bush; and was an environmental attorney for the U.S. Department of Justice.

They talk about growing up in West-Central Florida; split(?) allegiances between his undergrad and law schools; his consequential tenures as the top environmental lawyer on the state and national stages; what happened in the Sackett v. EPA case; and what the Supreme Court’s decision means for regulators and the regulated moving forward.

If you want to get in touch with Matt, email him here: mleopold@hunton.com

To check out the Hunton, Andrews, Kurth Law Firm, go to their website here: https://www.huntonak.com/en/

To read the Sackett v. EPA decision, go here: https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/22pdf/21-454_4g15.pdf

To get a quick view of how the United States Department of Justice’s case against BP turned out in relation to the Deepwater Horizon disaster, follow this link: https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/bp-exploration-and-production-inc-agrees-plead-guilty-felony-manslaughter-environmental

Please support our sponsors, RES and Sea & Shoreline.

Sea & Shoreline is a Florida-based aquatic restoration firm that is on a mission to restore Florida’s water bodies and to protect our coastline communities against severe storms. You can check out their projects at www.seaandshoreline.com

RES is a national leader in ecological and hydrological restoration, offering nature-based solutions with guaranteed performance through innovative delivery options. Discover more about their work and commitment to Florida and its environmental challenges by visiting www.res.us.

Our theme song is “Doing Work For Free”, by Bo Spring Band (Apple Music) (Spotify) (Pandora)

Matt Posner Jun 26, 2023

Show notes

In this episode, Brett travels to Pensacola for a conversation with the prolific Executive Director of the relatively new Pensacola and Perdido Bays Estuary Program – Matt Posner. They talk about growing up in Pensacola; the value of the education and experiences he gained on the way to his current role; the importance of fostering partnerships as the head of a small agency; and the exciting new programs his team is spearheading that could breathe new life into the region’s estuaries.

See for yourself how things are going at the Pensacola and Perdido Bays Estuary Program

Check out the remarkably well done 2023 State of the Bays webpage.

See how the Estuary Program’s work relates to that of the Northwest Florida Water Management District, and here.

You can also review the Florida Department of Environmental Protection’s interactive map showing the water quality challenges in the Pensacola and Perdido bays area and beyond.

Please support our sponsors, RES and Sea & Shoreline.

Our theme song is “Doing Work For Free”, by Bo Spring Band (Apple Music) (Spotify) (Pandora)

Jon Steverson Jun 19, 2023

Show notes

In this episode, Brett is joined by lobbyist, consultant, policy expert, and former Secretary of the Florida Department of Environmental Protection – Jon Steverson. They talk about growing up the son of an accountant and an English teacher; working for three different governors; his unintentionally controversial tenure as the DEP Secretary; and his approach to working in the legislative process. And of course, no conversation with Jon is complete without a mention of the Williams/Steverson Family Reunion and the Bonifay Rodeo.

Learn more about Jon’s work as Senior Policy Advisor with the Holland & Knight law firm and how he can help you.

See what all the fuss about the Bonifay Rodeo is.

Jon talks about his time with the Florida Association of Counties. See what those good folks are up to.

Florida Department of Environmental Protection’s State Parks website

Please support our partners, RES and Sea & Shoreline.

Our theme song is “Doing Work For Free”, by Bo Spring Band (Apple Music) (Spotify) (Pandora)

Greg Knecht Jun 12, 2023

Show notes

Learn more about the work Greg did to help restore the Everglades and its associated natural systems with the Florida Department of Environmental Protection. Learn all about The Nature Conservancy’s presence and mission in Florida. Learn more about how you can help support the mission of The Nature Conservancy Please support our sponsors, RES and Sea & Shoreline. Sea & Shoreline is a Florida-based aquatic restoration firm that is on a mission to restore Florida’s water bodies and to protect our coastline communities against severe storms. You can check out their projects at www.seaandshoreline.com RES is a national leader in ecological and hydrological restoration, offering nature-based solutions with guaranteed performance through innovative delivery options. Discover more about their work and commitment to Florida and its environmental challenges by visiting www.res.us. Our theme song is “Doing Work For Free”, by Bo Spring Band (Apple Music) (Spotify) (Pandora) Transcript : Welcome to Water for Fighting, where we discuss the past, present, and future of water in Florida with the people who make it happen. I’m your host, Brett Seifers. This week’s discussion is brought to you by Sea and Shoreline and Resource Environmental Solutions. Sea and Shoreline is a Florida-based aquatic restoration firm that’s on a mission to restore Florida’s water bodies and to protect our coastline communities against severe storms. You can check out their projects at seainshoreline.com. And of course, RES. RES is a national leader in ecological and hydrological restoration, offering nature-based solutions with guaranteed performance through innovative delivery options. Discover more about their work and commitment to Florida and its environmental challenges by visiting www.res.us. I’m so excited to introduce this week’s guest, Greg Connect. When I met Greg, he was at the Department of Environmental Protection where he worked for two decades on some of the most consequential environmental restoration programs in the state. He’s now the newly minted executive director of the Nature Conservancy in Florida, which is why I’m so grateful to have stolen a little bit of his time for this conversation. So let’s get right to it. Welcome to the podcast, Greg. Thank you, Brett. Honored to be here. Nice. I usually start at the beginning with these conversations, but since it’s so fresh for you, let’s start with how it’s going with the new gig you’re just named in March, right? The executive director. Seven weeks ago. Yep. Okay. First of all, congratulations publicly. And second, have you had a chance to come up for air yet? It’s certainly been a whirlwind since I started the interview process was, was pretty intense in organization like TNZ that’s, it’s global. And in this case, you know, we have 50 state directors. I’m one of 50, but Florida is an incredibly important state for the organization. So it’s pretty rigorous. They take it very seriously. And so one of my commitments. as part of the interview process was to get out on the road and meet our board of trustees and meet some of our donors and get out and meet staff. So I’ve kind of been on the road the last seven weeks out meeting people and including partners. That’s awesome. Now that we got that part out of the way, and then we’ll talk more about, obviously the conservancy later on, but I wanna start and get back to the beginning for you. You are a Polk County boy, right? I am a Polk County boy. Winter Haven. Is that where that’s, okay. Yep. And like our mutual friend, Jennifer Fitzwater, your family’s actually from Missouri, right? St. Louis, Missouri, or the outskirts, yeah, I guess. What brought your parents to Florida? Great question. My father was a chemical engineer, went to school in Missouri, met my mother, his wife, there in Missouri, graduated from Missouri School of Mines. with a degree in chemical engineering and got a job with US AgriChem. Ended up with a job here in Florida, in Polk County specifically, Winter Haven, working as a plant manager for US AgriChem, in Fort Meade, in Wachula, in Bowling Ground, the metropolises of those back in the 60s. Yeah, and those are my old stomping grounds when I was at Swift Mud, and I know that those are not what you would call your typical bustling metropolises. So you live in Winter Haven, which I guess like almost dead center in the county, right? Pretty much so. Yeah. And going down south to Fort Meade and Wachula where your dad was working, it sounds like an interesting backstory. Tell me a little bit about him personally and why he made some of those choices. Well, I think at the time, I’m guessing it was probably about a 60 minute drive, depending on where he was going, which plant we moved to, to Winter Haven because it was. I’m gonna say metropolis. There wasn’t a whole lot in Winter Haven at the time either, but it was a larger city. And so he just decided even as his job kind of went further and further south or the mines expanded further south just to not move the family because we had already put in roots in Winter Haven. I’m so glad that I literally went to elementary all through high school and still meet people that were like, oh. I went to Winter Haven High School. And so there’s, being in one place for 18 years, or in my case, going to a community college there really did kind of form a long bond with a specific place that you watch change just over time as well. Yeah, I guess getting that obligatory, anytime I talk to someone else, we spent the, till I was about five years old in South Lakeland and grew up in East Hillsborough County. So I’ve got, anytime I hear somebody from Polk County, it’s the obligatory, can you believe how huge Polk County is now population-wise? I mean, it’s enormous. I think we’re 700, maybe pushing to 750,000 people. I mean, when I was there, this is 2015 to 2005 to 2007, it was probably 400,000 people, 450,000 people, incredible. Yeah, it’s definitely changed when I, even in junior high and high school, I worked. citrus and cattle after school or you know with a friend of mine is he was in the citrus business and you know all those places I drive down there now and they’re you know they’re all gone and they’re you know they’re subdivision so yeah it’s definitely changed. Is it I mean is it weird for you I guess that’s I mean that’s the description is the same you know same with yeah I think anyone that you know grew up in these kind of suburban areas is how much it looks different than the place you grew up. And I grew up in the middle of what used to be orange groves and strawberry fields. And it’s just, it’s houses. Yeah, I mean, there’s that, right? So there’s just kind of the stark contrast. And what I would say is it all kind of at least ties back to the nature conservancy or conservation for me in thinking about those places that the pastures I worked in and those orange groves and the importance of agriculture. my afternoons when I wasn’t working fishing specifically, you know, Lake Roy, those places really had an impact on me. And as I see those going away and recognizing that we’re losing more and more, you know, natural spaces and agricultural spaces, it’s a great concern. And we’ll get to, I think, a little bit more of that later because I think it speaks to a broader conversation. I would say. interesting, somewhere between interesting and exciting things going on in that regard. It seems like it’s getting some significant attention, but let’s stick with a bit with those early days in Winter Haven and what Greg Connect was like growing up. If someone follows you on Instagram, they know that you spent an immense amount of time outdoors. Was that always your MO? Oh yeah. I was, like I said, fishing. You know, a friend had a John boat, pretty much water-oriented during dove season, hunting after school with my buddies, between that and then, you know, getting the car and that side of things. Probably typical smile, what I would say small town, America boy and his, you know, that had access to the water. You couldn’t beat it. I could walk, every day I could walk halfway around a lake just with a fishing pole and just have a. Yeah, it’s one of the interesting things. It’s been such a while now that I forget the stat, but Polk County has something like 550 odd lakes. I’m like, you know, beyond the other, you know, gorgeous natural features, like that’s an enormous number of lakes and places to recreate and be around. So very cool. When you were a kid, did you have any idea what you want to be when you grew up, so to speak? Did you know what you were going to study in college? Do you know what the plan for your life was? Did it have to do with the outdoors? Well, certainly had, I have vivid memories of getting National Geographic magazine and looking at, and it’s still kind of that way today, especially now that I know people who actually work with National Geographic like Carlton Ward, it’s pretty cool, right? But I think back in those days, and I would see these articles, and one that had a… pretty formative impact on me was, I can think of actually too, that my father was wonderful about having an evening conversation at the dinner table or after dinner, kind of sitting there chatting and asking me how my day at school was, blah, or what’s new. And I remember one, in this National Geographic, and I had to have probably been, I’m guessing 10 or 12 years old, but it really shaped the way I think about things. It was an article about shark fishing in the Sea of Cortez. And, you know, this, of course, National Geographic, the photography was amazing, you know, had this pretty graphic photograph of sharks, you know, in nets, you know, hundreds of them. And I was just devastated about this impact and went to my father and said, “‘Oh my God, we have to stop this. “‘This is just terrible.'” And I remembered my father saying, these people who were fishing for sharks to do, they have to eat. There were multiple of those conversations, whether it was National Geographic or other things like that, that as an outdoors person, I had this direction towards the outdoors and critters and all of that. For me, it was principally thinking about it from the wildlife standpoint and my father everything we do has an impact and it’s not as easy as just always thinking about in this case, the sharks or polar bears or whatever. And it seems like that’s kind of your, your general attitude, at least as, as long as I’ve known you is things are more complicated than just black or white. And so is that, is that kind of, that’s where it comes from is your dad’s on your shoulder, you know, so to speak, you know, in your ear saying, Hey, it’s, you know, look at, look at all the angles here. Yeah, certainly. I mean, he at least taught me to, you know, to walk a mile in somebody else’s shoes, if you will. And I would say that it brings back good memories of, you know, there were also conversations that there was that point that we just philosophically disagreed on how much impact was, you know, was okay, right? Right. And so, but again, what I would say he taught me was that… Everyone you meet in this case it happened to be my father isn’t always going to agree with you, right? and so you either have to figure out a way to work with those people or You know, you can just you can you can write them off But the you know, the outcome is probably not gonna be good certainly with family. Yeah. Oh definitely Although, you know Thanksgiving it’s weirder and weirder every year doesn’t yeah I want to talk about something for a minute because you and I were talking about how you were massive poor decision maker. I’m gonna lead that with saying that you were a cave diver. And I want you to explain to me, because I’ve asked this question of a couple other folks that I know that have done that, is are you crazy and why did you do that? Well, you know what I would say is, one, it’s not really dangerous if it’s done appropriately. I started diving in about 1983, and much like everything else in my life, Once I decide to do something, I mean, I don’t have 15 different hobbies. I really have, and my father actually said, you don’t have hobbies, you have, you know, they become passions. And so with diving, I didn’t go, you know, just learn how to dive. Then I actually started helping teach from the same person who taught me and then, you know, took more and more. And so it was just one more thing, one more place when you couldn’t go offshore or I didn’t have access or couldn’t make it to the Keys. It’s like, well, wait a minute, there’s really pretty water here in Florida. Why can’t I just figure out how to go do that safely? And so on top of that, like I said, once I kind of start something, I wanna kind of, I probably take it to the extreme. And so it was like, oh, well, not only did I learn how to cave dive, then it became Like, well, what’s the cutting edge? And so literally, you know, started doing, you know, mixed gas and all kinds of stuff. And the amount of effort that it was taking became too much, but it was amazing. And I’m so glad people are still doing it. Yeah. And I mean, you ended up teaching diving, right? And ran a shop as well. Was that all down in Polk County? Some of that made its way up here. I ran a shop in Winterhaven that was a water sports store. you know, when you’re young and you kind of think, oh, well, I don’t really need much to live on. Gee, if I can go diving every weekend and take people to Cozumel or whatever, what else could you ask for? And then, you know, at some point it starts to dawn on you that, yeah, but living in your parents’ home until you’re in your 40s, you know, it’s gonna be harder to find a bride. And so, you know, my wonderful now wife convinced me that, well, You know, she actually said she was coming up to at Florida State University. We were dating at the time and she said, you can come with me or you can, I’m going to use her words, you can stay here and be a bum. So anyhow, all of that to say, I came up to FSU and, and taught scuba here. And it was a, you know, it was a perfect opportunity. I want to take just a moment to talk about my friends at res. Florida is a treasure trove of natural wonders, but the cost of that treasure is our collective responsibility to restore. and protect its ecological and water resources. That’s where my friends at RES, the nation’s leader in ecological and hydrological restoration are at their best. With an extensive Florida-based team, RES provides top-notch nature-based solutions that uplift Florida’s ecosystems and the communities that rely on them. From water quality to hydrological restoration, wetland mitigation to coastal resilience, RES addresses the complex challenges facing our state with our unique operating model of taking full responsibility. for their project’s performance over time. Working with both the public and private sectors, RES is tackling the issues affecting Florida’s water and land resources the most. Their long-term, cost-effective, and sustainable projects rehabilitate impaired ecosystems, helping them do the work nature intended. Cleansing water, sheltering wildlife, buffering storms, and sequestering carbon from the atmosphere. Join RES on their mission to restore and uplift Florida’s ecosystems. Visit www.res.gov. dot us to learn more about res and their commitment to creating a resilient future for Florida. All right, let’s get back to the conversation. Yeah, I mean I didn’t want to let to go unmentioned you and angela you know kind of the environmental power couple because she’s at Dp still um, and you spent many years there and was she a big part of influencing you in terms of professionally when you got past the diving Well, yeah, I mean, like I said, she’s the one who convinced me to finish school, has supported me ever since, including I joined TNC about 11 years ago. And so I’ll…

Full show notes at the publisher

Mike Register Jun 05, 2023

Show notes

In this episode, Brett travels to Palatka to sit down with the Executive Director of the St. Johns River Water Management District – Mike Register. They discuss how a young engineer out of the University of Florida charts a path to a more than three decade-long career at the agency he now runs; his approach to solving problems and working with stakeholders; the complicated processes involved in the development of Regional Water Supply Plans and Minimum Flows and Levels; and his thoughts on the future of water in Florida.

Learn more about Regional Water Supply Plans.

Learn more about how the District is working with farmers to meet their needs and the needs of the environment.

Learn about the Indian River Lagoon, its challenges, and the District’s role in restoration.

If you want to find out how you can protect drinking water supplies in the St. Johns River and beyond

Don’t forget to support our sponsors, RES and Sea & Shoreline.

Our theme song is “Doing Work For Free”, by Bo Spring Band (Apple Music) (Spotify) (Pandora)

Dean Saunders May 29, 2023

Show notes

In Episode 2 of Season 2, Brett travels to Lakeland for the opportunity to hear from the person who brought the idea of conservation easements (they called it something different in the early 90’s) to Florida: 8th generation Floridian, long time real estate broker, and former member of the Florida House of Representatives – Dean Saunders. They talk about his time with Senator and then Governor Lawton Chiles; how conservation easements and Bright Futures were born; and how a young pancake dinner salesman became one of the most prolific land brokers in the state.If you’d like to learn more about conservation lands in Florida, including easements, check out the Florida Natural Areas Inventory (FNAI) Learn more about the Bright Futures Scholarship program.Get to know who Senator and then Governor Lawton Chiles was. If you’re buying or selling real estate and want Dean’s help, find him here: https://www.saundersrealestate.com You can also reach Dean directly by email If you’re interested in finding out more about my day job and the amazing folks I work with, head here: www.anfieldflorida.comThis season of Water for Fighting is brought to you by my friends at Resource Environmental Solutions and Sea & Shoreline.Sea & Shoreline is a Florida-based aquatic restoration firm that is on a mission to restore Florida’s water bodies and to protect our coastline communities against severe storms. You can check out their projects at www.seaandshoreline.com.RES is a national leader in ecological and hydrological restoration, offering nature-based solutions with guaranteed performance through innovative delivery options. Discover more about their work and commitment to Florida and its environmental challenges by visiting www.res.us. Transcript :Welcome to Water for Fighting, where we discuss the past, present, and future of water in Florida with the people who make it happen. I’m your host, Brett Seifers. This season of Water for Fighting is sponsored by Sea and Shoreline. Sea and Shoreline is a Florida-based aquatic restoration firm that is on a mission to restore Florida’s water bodies and protect our coastline communities against severe storms. You can check out their projects at seainshoreline.com. The season is also brought to you by Resource Environmental Solutions. REZ is a national leader in ecological and hydrological restoration offering nature-based solutions with guaranteed performance through innovative delivery options. Discover more about their work and commitment to Florida and its environmental challenges by visiting www.res.us. More about these good folks a little bit later. As advertised, we’re continuing to broaden our horizons a little bit more this season and today’s guest fits right into that philosophy. I’m so excited to be joined by a former member of the Florida House of Representatives and the founder, managing director, and senior advisor for Saunders, Ralston, and Dantzler, Dean Saunders. Dean served in the Florida House for two terms between 1992 and 1996, where he was instrumental in the creation of legislation that served as the foundation for the development and expansion of conservation easement programs here in the state of Florida. Since then, he has brokered some of the most consequential conservation purchases ever made in the state of Florida. Dean, thank you for joining me on the podcast. It’s good to see you. Yeah, good to be here. Let’s start at the very beginning. You and I talked for a few minutes before I got here, and you said that you’re an eighth generation Floridian. Is that right? That is correct. So tell me about your parents then, I guess, and their parents and parents and parents. Oh. So my parents, my dad, the Saunders side, were really cracker conks. Actually, the Saunders helped found the Bahamas in the 16. 1649 when the Lutheran adventurers left the Bermuda and went to the Bahamas. And then from the Bahamas they made it to Key West in about 18… between 1845 and 1847. And then migrated up the coast and then settled in the Dunedin area, a little community called Curlew, settled by the Saunders and then by ultimately my other side of my dad’s side of the family, the Sutton’s and Bechtons and a whole bunch of… names over there. And my great-great grandfather founded the Curlew Methodist Church, which at the time was the second oldest church in what was then Hillsborough County. Wow. So now of course it’s Pinellas County. Right, I was going to ask about that. Yeah, yeah. And then my mom, she came from Michigan. She was adopted and so her adoptive mother moved to Dunedin and that’s how she met my dad. My mother, actually her biological father is Native American. He was in Ottawa. I think Ottawa and Chippewa from Michigan. And so I’ve actually located her half brother. She never knew she had and he never knew he had a half sister until about a year ago. Wow, that is that is recent. Yeah, so is that the I had a friend who calls them I guess you purrs are they the you purrs the ones that are not the north side of Michigan or is it a different part of? Michigan that well, well, no, they were not part of the Upper Peninsula, but good catch I mean there were there’s several bands of the Ottawa and I think it’s the Little River Band that okay My folks were part of interesting So then let’s go back to you’re now here in Florida. Your parents, where were you born? So I was born in Claremont. Okay, which is much different now than it was when you were born there. True. But what were you like as a kid? What did you like doing? What did your dad do for a living? So my dad managed some groves for the Artie Keene family, a big citrus growing family out of Orlando, and he managed about thousand acres of their groves and a lot of them were in and around Claremont. Had he always done that from when you were in Dunedin? So dad went to University of Florida, majored in citrus and then he actually moved to Lakeland. He was working for the Soil Science Foundation here in Lakeland and then he got a job with Mr. Keene to be the manager of his citrus groves and so he moved to Claremont. So did you grow up in the groves with your dad? Oh yeah, yeah. I mean, as a little kid, I mean, fishing, swimming in the lakes, playing baseball. When I was 13, I started working in the Orange Coast. I remember it was, Easter break was coming up, and it was, so we had Thursday, Friday, and Monday off for Easter. I mean, back then, you could still call it Easter break. But now we call it spring break. And I remember it was a Wednesday evening, and Dad said, oh, by the way, you’re going to start working in the morning, so you need to make a lunch tonight. 630 in the morning. I did that until I graduated from college. I would come home in the summers and I’d work in the orange groves. So I started working 10-hour days in vacations and summer and whatnot. But it’s interesting. You have people that have different stories and some folks intentionally avoid the things that their fathers did before them or their mothers did before them. And I didn’t want to assume you’re one of the most significant land brokers in the entire state, probably the Southeast. And so I didn’t want to assume that, hey, just because you’re buying and selling doesn’t mean that you’re necessarily, it’s part of who you are. But it sounds like it is and has been. Well, yeah, yes and no. I mean, so my grandfather was a commercial fisherman. And so my dad’s on the Saunders side. Ever since we came from the Bahamas, we were either farmers or fishermen, right? And mostly fishermen. But my dad went on the agricultural side. the next Jaco Stowe, you know, at the time. I wanted to be a marine biologist, but later realized that there weren’t that many jobs at the time in that field. And so I migrated into majoring in citrus and agriculture and thought I would be, I’d always enjoyed sales. And I can remember when I was eight or nine, my dad was a great grove manager, but sales were not one of his things. And the Rotary Club was having pancake supper and they had tickets, right, to sell. So I took my dad’s tickets and I walked all over Claremont selling pancake supper tickets. And he was the top salesman. So he sold the most tickets. And it was actually me that had sold them. And he got a little black and white, 8-inch black and white TV as his prize for selling the most tickets. And he gave it to me. I enjoyed the sales. I enjoyed getting around and meeting with people and talking to people. You know, is Dean again, you know, what are you selling now? Do you know? Right. What do you attribute that to? Is it that, that persistence or were you always an extrovert? Is that kind of your thing? I, yeah, I just think, you know, yeah, I was, I, you know, enjoy people and enjoyed sales, I mean, it was a, just something to do, I don’t know, I just liked it and so I always thought I’d probably end up in fertilizer sale or chem, chemical sales or something. I was really thinking more national chemical companies at the time, ag chemicals. But when I graduated in 82, was a farm recession. Now the country in general was doing okay, but the farm community was not. And so I ended up going to work for Golden Gem Citrus Growers. And I know that one of your next questions is gonna be, well, how did I get to work in for Lawton Childs? So just to go to that story, I came home from work one day and I’d been at Golden Gem for about three months. Is this after college that you’re talking about? This is after college. After, you know, so 1983, my dad says, This guy called, his name is Charles Kennedy, says he’s administrative assistant to Lawton Childs. He called and I said, well, okay, do you have his number, Dad? I can return his phone call. No, he just said he’d call you in the morning. I said, Dad, what? So, sure enough, at six o’clock in the morning, he called me, I was already at the Golden Gym offices and he just said, Dean, I know you’re at work and you probably can’t talk, so just listen. He said, I’m. Charles Kennedy, administrative assistant to US Senator Locke-Chiles. And the senator would like to hire somebody to work agricultural issues for him. He’s looking for a cracker with a background in agriculture, preferably in citrus, who enjoys politics. You were referred to us by the University of Florida. Would you be interested in discussing this with us? And I said, yes, sir, I would. And I went down to Lakeland that night, and two weeks later I was working for Long Chiles. Wow. So that’s what brought me to Lakeland. Okay. So, I mean, you glossed over it a little bit, but you mentioned you were referred by the University of Florida, but you actually went to the University of Florida. Correct. And so while I was at Florida, I was very active in student government and my fraternity. I was a member of Alpha Gambrough Fraternity. was president of AGR and I was president of the Student Senate while I was there and member of Florida Blue Key and all the kinds of things that one does to be in leadership positions, never thinking that I would ever use that in any political fashion after school. Yeah, that’s the part I was curious about is the University of Florida, even in the A’s, it’s an enormous school now, but it’s always been a big school in Florida, and so Dean Saunders or you ask the president of the university, like, oh, you need to call this kid Dean Saunders. Yeah. So they reached out to the lobbyists for IFAS, Institute of Food and Agricultural Sciences, who were looking for somebody, and if you all got somebody that you would recommend. And so there they recommended me. Right, so then let’s talk about then your time while he was Senator Lawton Childs. What did you do for him? How did that work? Lakeland, I assume, the entire time? So we were headquartered in Lakeland and I was here. So I was working administrative kind of issues, mostly. But he wanted me to be a, my title was agricultural liaison. I went to meetings with Florida Citrus Mutual or the dairy farmers or the, actually the sugar growers had an association at the time. They don’t anymore. It’s been disbanded. Or the cattlemen’s meetings or farm bureau meetings. Association meetings. I mean Busy is what you were. Nursher Men and Growers Association. All of the agricultural groups in the state, I got to know the leadership of those organizations. And that’s what the Senator wanted me to do. He wanted me to be out and meeting with those folks. So they knew they had an advocate and a voice in Washington for their needs. And so that’s really what I did. And then at some point, Mr. Kennedy came to me and said, like for you in addition to doing the work that you’re doing with the agriculture community, we would like for you to travel with the Senator, advance his trips, do the follow-up, and conduct town hall meetings on a regular basis in a 20-county district. So I was the quote, not only the agricultural liaison, but then they called it I think, Central Florida District Assistant. Okay. So when the Senator was in any of my counties, I’d pick him up at the airport, I’d That kind of thing. At that point, I mean, you’re working for who become probably one of the most famous, if not the most famous politicians from Florida, at least in the modern era. But did you consider yourself getting deeper into the political side of thinking at that point? Or do you still think of yourself as an ag person, an ag liaison, a person that wanted to work around those issues? No, I saw myself latter, really more, I was still an ag guy. I was, I’m working for the senator. I was very loyal to him, worked hard for him on his behalf, and did what he asked me to do, right, and represented his interest. But at the same time, I was an advocate for the agriculture community. And he knew it, they knew it, but I never really thought of me in that light, right? Right. That just wasn’t my particular interest at the time. I was interested in doing a good job and really being an advocate for agriculture. That sounds great. Talk about that transition then from Senator Childs to Governor Childs and then how you fit into that picture. So you asked me earlier was I always in Lakeland and I was always in Lakeland, but I had an interlude. The Farm Bureau, Florida Farm Bureau Federation hired me and so I took a year off from service with Senator Childs. to work for Florida Farm Bureau in Gainesville, which is where our oldest daughter was born. Okay. And so I did ag issues again for Farm Bureau, more national sort of issues. I did some state lobbying. And then in 1986, when the Democrats took control of the Senate again, Lawton became chairman of the Budget Committee. And he called me shortly after that and said, Dean, I’d like for you to consider coming back. Actually, we had dinner. And he said, I’d like. I’d like for you to come back to work for me. I’d like for you to come to Washington and handle ag issues for me. I’ll have more money, I can pay you out of the budget committee, go on staff and whatnot. And I said, well, I said, Senator, let me think about it and pray about it, visit with my wife about it. And I came back about a week later and I said, as much as I would find the opportunity exciting and to work for you again would be phenomenal, I just don’t want my opportunities to be in Washington. Because I know if I move to Washington, future opportunities will be there. And we really want to live in Florida. We love our state. We don’t want to be that far away from our parents. And I now have a daughter to consider. So he said, okay, well, how about if we just let you work out of the Lakeland office and you fly up to D.C. to do the work you need about once a month? And he said, but listen, if I make this trade off with you, you’re going to have to travel with me again. So that’s what we did. Okay. And then so what year was that when he took over that committee and asked you to come back? That was in 1986, right after the el…

Full show notes at the publisher

Steven Hawley May 22, 2023

Show notes

In our Season 2 opener, Brett has a conversation with noted filmmaker and author, Steve Hawley. Steve has a brand new book out called, Cracked: The Future of Dams in a Hot, Chaotic World. They discuss the mythology surrounding the benefits of many of the world’s dams; the benefits of restoring once-dammed rivers; Dam Removal 101; and why he’s cautiously optimistic about the future of the world’s natural systems.Go buy Steve’s new book here:To get it straight from the publisher, Patagonia To buy it from Steve’s favorite book store To find it at Amazon Read Steve’s first book, Recovering a Lost River.Watch Steve’s film, Dammed to ExtinctionWatch on Amazon PrimeWatch on VimeoTo learn more about restoration work being done on the Klamath River, check out this amazing video.I encourage you to find out more about what my friends at Sea & Shoreline and RES are doing to restore and protect Florida’s natural places and communities here: https://seaandshoreline.com and here: https://res.usOur theme song is “Doing Work For Free”, by Bo Spring Band (Apple Music) (Spotify) (Pandora) Transcript 00:07Welcome to the second season of Water for Fighting, where we discuss the past, present, and future of water in Florida and beyond with the people who make it happen. I’m your host, Brett Seifers, and I’m so grateful to be back with you for another season. I wanna start by thanking my new partners who helped make this podcast a reality, Sea and Shoreline and Resource Environmental Solutions, widely known as RES.00:29REZ is a national leader in ecological and hydrological restoration, offering nature-based solutions with guaranteed performance through innovative delivery options. Discover more about their work and commitment to addressing Florida’s environmental challenges by visiting www.res.us.00:47Also, Sea and Shoreline is a Florida-based aquatic restoration firm that is on a mission to restore Florida’s water bodies and to protect our coastline communities against severe storms. You can check out their projects at seaandshoreline.com. More on both of those great companies later on. But now let’s talk a little bit about the season in front of us.01:07As implied by the Florida and beyond from a second ago, we’ll be broadening our horizons a bit on the show. I think you’re going to find the conversation lineup for this season to be both interesting and thought-provoking. I should note that much of the season’s lineup is thanks in part to the feedback I’ve gotten from you, the listeners, so please keep sending your suggestions. Let’s get on with the season opening guest. Our guest is a filmmaker, an author, who has dedicated an already storied career to making the case that we have been terribly misinformed about the benefits of dams,01:37and even religious cost. His name is Steve Hawley. And Steve has a new book out called Crack The Future of Dams in a Hot Chaotic World. Steve, thank you for joining me on the podcast. Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it. You’ve written a well-documented and beautifully illustrated book, but this is a personality driven podcast. So if you’ll indulge me, I’d like to start by talking about you for a bit. That’s all right. Sure.01:59Let’s start with where you live and where you were born and take it from there. Yeah, I live about an hour east of where I was born. I’m from Hood River, Oregon, and grew up in Portland. And I think maybe the most pertinent and interesting thing about my ever lengthening life history here, I’m in my early fifties is that in my formative years, one of my best friends growing up was a fly fishing nerd and02:28energy and still is a fly fishing nerd as a matter of fact and introduced me to the world of Rivers and steelhead and salmon and quite clearly that’s shaped some of my career choices was that part of Growing up what were your what were your parents like were were they from Oregon as well or did they come from somewhere else? My mother grew up in Salem and Eugene my dad grew up in Berkeley, California and in outside of Boise, Idaho02:57And they’re both school teachers. My dad is a PE teacher. My mom taught second and third grade. Okay. What were you like as a kid? You mentioned your, your friend who was the, the fly fishing nerd. Did you start fishing when you were really young or did you have other interests as well? I loved, I, I, I took to fishing right away. Neither of my parents were super outdoorsy people or fishermen, but my dad would always, you know, particularly on Sundays after church, if we wanted to go fishing somewhere, we’d hop in his old pickup truck.03:25He’d take me to some spots out along the Clackamas River. That those were really formative experiences, but it really took off when I when I connected with this friend of mine who whose whose father taught a whole bunch of us skinny, you know, East County, East Multnomah County kids to really appreciate rivers in a way that I couldn’t have done without getting to know this family. How old were you at that point? When you when you started to connect with that one kid and his and his dad?03:5516 maybe. Okay. It was high school. Yeah. So as soon as one of them had a driver’s license, then that really opened up doors as well, of course. Did that extend beyond high school into college, that sort of thing? Yeah, I had one of those kids, another friend of ours, pretty much designed his whole college career around getting out to fish. I lived with him in tiny little Ashland, Oregon, where I went to…04:18college and this guy managed to get all of his classes into two days a week so he could have the other five days a week to fish. I didn’t quite have quite that level of dedication but it was truly the case that what we were taught when we were 15 and 16 is stuck with this sort of core group of friends who are who are still at it you know still out on rivers whenever we can get there. So you still hang out with him go fishing? Yeah a couple times a year. Awesome, awesome. Yeah.04:44What were you studying in college? Was it something related to natural sciences or engineering or geology, something like that? Well, I still have ongoing case of math phobia. And so I have a degree in English, but I took every science class that I could that didn’t have a lab attached with it. So a lot of ecology, a little biology, some geology.05:14Really, because of that introduction to the natural world through fishing, I became sort of fascinated with all of the facets of the earth sciences, I suppose. And that’s still sort of fascinating subject for me. We know what is, what is this place that we’re inhabiting? What is its history? What makes it work? What hurts it? What helps it? I’m always interested in, in kind of the origin stories of a sort, you know, with folks and.05:42they get to a point in their career and they’re doing things that are really special. But for me, it’s the curiosity is where does that come from? And that’s a really interesting origin there. When did that start to stretch into thinking about dams, writing about dams, working on those sorts of issues? Was it from a personal experience or was it something that you got into from another direction?06:11What I started considering at a relatively young age was just this massive transformation of the Columbia River system. The Columbia was once upon a time, relatively recently, one of the world’s top producers of salmon and was the world’s very best producer of Chinook salmon. And what we’ve done over the past three quarters of a century is transform that system, that natural system that existed for hundreds of thousands of years,06:41That same river basin becoming one of the world’s top producers of hydropower. And so I started wondering what the trade-offs have been. And, you know, that’s one of the reasons I’ve spent so much time writing about this topic is those trade-offs are not often well considered. I don’t think over the long haul, I think the system that we’ve transformed is going to cost a lot more than it ever has come to. Yeah. I want to talk about that a bit because.07:10You tell story after story of, and I’ll call it the false promise of dams, as it relates to the supposed economic and even cultural value. You tell that really cool story about the video that you show on the face of the dam. But you made some strong arguments that that’s not the case necessarily. Can you talk a little bit about some of those assumptions that we make about those benefits like hydropower, agriculture, and the reality that you ended up seeing as you researched it?07:38Yeah, I think the trade-off to keep in mind is that the benefits that were promised have never quite been delivered. Maybe the second part of that is the ecological cost has been far higher than anybody has previously calculated. And that second part is especially true under any kind of climate change scenario that you’d want to consider. So, you know, recall that a lot of these projects were built…08:02And I guess the big dam building frenzy was in the last century, starting probably with the depression and the federal programs to kind of put people back to work. And that’s an honorable motivation, but the benefits that were supposed to be delivered from water control projects were supposed to be kind of a rising tide that would lift all boats. And that’s not really what happened. For instance, the Columbia basin projects just west of me here in Washington state, the hope was to put 10,00008:30families on their own working farms. And we never really got much more than a quarter of that. You know, it turned out that there’s about 2,500 families on some rather larger working farms. And so then the problem became, and this is something that the engineers never considered because what was really required was a type of social engineering. Where were you going to find the labor pool to work?08:56you know, almost a million acres of newly irrigated land. And the answer to that question has been migrant labor. And there’s a, in the book, I outlined the whole kind of sorted history of our relationship with immigrant labor. And we’ve had kind of a Jekyll and Hyde relationship.09:13with mostly Latin American and Hispanic workers. At first we invited them under a program called Bracero’s. And then a lot of the folks that we invited, we ended up uninviting in a rather unfriendly way. That kind of contrasting treatment of the labor pool that is still in this country, responsible for putting a lot of our food on the table, that’s never really been resolved. The immigrant issue that we have in this country is in a large part, particularly in the Western United States, driven by…09:43the water projects that we built in the last century. You know, so that’s the economic cost. And we can talk a little bit about the environmental cost, which has been enormous. Sure. And you mentioned climate change, right? So at one point you talked about in particular methane and how these reservoirs on the backside of these dams are causing more methane thereby supposedly it would be counteracting the benefits of saying, using hydropower instead of saying, you know, coal or oil or something like that, right?10:12Yeah, there’s a whole mythology around hydropower that borrows heavily on the virtuous intent, you know, of building large public water control projects. And part of that mythology is that10:23hydro power is clean and green. It never has been. First of all, we talked a little bit already about the transformation of one of the greatest salmon-bearing river systems on earth into one that produces electricity. And so the loss of that resource, which has cultural, social, and even for indigenous people, religious implications, the costs have never really been fully calculated. And then you fast forward to our current predicament with climate change. In the book, I…10:51talk about a researcher on the Washington State University campus who’s been part of this global team of scientists. And they’ve recently figured out that the world’s reservoirs, impoundments behind dams, have a greenhouse gas equivalent footprint, in other words, methane, that is equal to the greenhouse gas footprint of the nation of Germany, which is the world’s sixth largest producer of greenhouse gases.11:21contribution to climate chaos, and yet we still have policies in place that say, well, hydropower can be part of the solution, but it’s not. The science tells us differently. All right, let’s take a quick break here to talk about my friends at Sea and Shoreline. Since its creation in 2014, Sea and Shoreline’s heralded experience with scientifically validated methods of aquatic restoration has proven successful across more than 150 environmental projects.11:49The company continues to be the industry leader in rehabilitating threatened and corrupted aquatic environments, with proven success in places such as Crystal River, Homasasa River, the Caloosatchee River, and the Indian River Lagoon. I have seen firsthand how Seah and Shoreline completely reset the ecosystem in Crystal River, transforming it from an algae-dominated system to a plant-based system. The water used to be full of lingbia and hydrilla, with a thick bottom layer of muck that smelled like rotten eggs. Through muck removal,12:18and planting of native eel grasses, the system is now beautiful and crystal clear with lush eelgrass meadows. The manatees are feasting, varieties of fish have returned, eco-tourism is booming, and property values have significantly increased. For more information about Sea and Shoreline and what they’re up to, visit seainshoreline.com. You mentioned the cultural and even religious aspect. Can you expand on that? Because you talked about the salmon a lot and obviously now I know why because you’re a big fisherman.12:48And even beyond that, I understand that it’s an important issue to you. But those salmon are often a part of these cultures and even the religious aspects of some of these communities. Right? Absolutely. We’re the town where I’m.13:04speaking to you from in Moscow, Idaho was no until the mid 19th century for thousands of years have been home to the Nez Perce and they were salmon people. They will tell you that they’ve been here since the beginning of time and that one of the foods that sustained their lives and their culture and their villages and their families for that.13:24long stretch of time with salmon. You know, in their origin story and their creation myth, first there was water and then the salmon came. And you know, their relationship to that creature means almost everything to them. The only comparison I could make is it’s as important to the Nez Perce spiritual belief as the elements of communion are to Catholics. It’s that important. And one of the things that our government has done is disregard that.13:51the belief that salmon are key to the spiritual as well as physical well-being of indigenous people in this part of the world. You wouldn’t do that if it was a mainstream Christian religion, right? You wouldn’t say, well, you know, the elements in communion just aren’t that important. So we’ll just do away with them and let people, you know, make their own way through an uncertain future. It’s really, it’s an environmental story. The disappearance of salmon is what I’m referring to here, but it’s also, this becomes a human rights issue.14:22And I think that’s one of the more sort of fascinating and maybe hopefully will inspire some emotions amongst people who pick up the book because these people have been very patient with our federal government. And now we’re in a situation with climate change where time is running out to do something, to do the right thing. And hopefully we’ll manage to at least take a few steps in that direction.14:48Yeah, let’s talk about the federal government for a bit. The Bureau of Reclamation comes in for some serious criticism throughout the book, obviously. But the politics of these dams…

Full show notes at the publisher

Ann Shortelle Apr 10, 2023

Show notes

In the last episode of the season, Brett sits down with limnologist, business owner and two-time water management district executive director – Ann Shortelle. They talk about building a family and career in Florida; being one of only three people to serve as executive director of two different water management districts; how she wants young women and girls to embrace math and science more; Notre Dame super fandom; and how she became a “Lake Doctor”. To learn more about the North Florida Regional Water Supply Partnership, go here: https://northfloridawater.com To learn more about the Central Florida Water Initiative, check here: https://cfwiwater.com and here: https://floridadep.gov/water-policy/water-policy/content/central-florida-water-initiative-cfwi To find out more about DEP’s Office of Water Policy and Ecosystems Restoration, head here: https://floridadep.gov/water-policy To see what they’re up to at the Suwannee River Water Management District these days, check out their website here: https://www.mysuwanneeriver.com To wade through the Wikipedia page on the Rodman Dam and Reservoir, go here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rodman_Reservoir You can email Ann directly here: abshortelle@gmail.com Our theme song is “Doing Work For Free”, by Bo Spring Band (Apple Music) (Spotify) (Pandora) Transcript speaker:Water for Fighting, where we discuss the past, present, and future of water in Florida with the people who make it happen. I’m your host, Brett Seifers. I’ve decided to close out the season by talking to one of the smartest people I know, and easily my favorite limnologist, Dr. Anne Shortell. When I met Anne, she was just hired as the director of the Office of Water Policy at the Department of Environmental Protection, and she would go on to be one of only three people ever to serve as executive director of two different water management districts. She’s currently the co-owner 2030 Consulting out of Gainesville and even though we’re talking by phone, I couldn’t be more happy to have her on the show. So let’s get on with it. Anne, thanks so much for joining me today. Thanks for having me. I’m honored to be here and thanks for noting that I actually can’t keep a job. Oh boy. We’ll get to some of that. Trust me. Trust me. First of all, where are you at the moment? Dallas, Texas. And why are you in Dallas, Texas? Well, I have a daughter and son-in-law and twin granddaughters here and we are currently in the final days of Baby Watch for number three. Wow. Wow. That’s awesome. And we’ll get to a little bit more of that pretty soon, but I want to start with when you were born. And you were born in, let me see if I pronounced this correctly, Saul St. Marie? Is that right? Sue St. Marie. There you go. And that’s in Michigan. Yes. much about your beginnings because you’re an Air Force brat. So your family’s not actually from Michigan, right? Correct. They’re from upstate New York. Where in upstate New York? Because Ryan Matthews, who I spoke with last week, his family’s from Troy, New York. Uh, not too close to where my family is, has their roots, Janesden, New York is in the extreme western portion, close to Buffalo. really about 60 miles from Buffalo. Wow, cold times. And do you still have a lot of extended family up there? We have, you know, there’s cousins about and you know, once removed type family. It’s generally a fairly small family and most of my generation and the next generation have moved elsewhere. Okay, so do you consider yourself in any way a New Yorker or are you just, hey, I’m an Air Force brat And so I’m from everywhere. Air Force brat and no, I do not consider myself a New Yorker. Well, I mean, you’ve been in Florida for a long time. So I hate to try to bash you over the head with that, but sometimes it is what it is. So where did your parents end up after the Air Force days were over? Well, my dad’s last active duty station was Eglin Air Force Base out on the Panhandle. So he retired there. and my dad actually moved to Gainesville where we, Kevin and I were raising our family. Nice. So then tell me about young Anne. You end up as an accomplished academic, and I know for a fact that you’re a huge sports fan, especially Notre Dame football, but were you bookish as a kid? Did you enjoy the outdoors and sports more or was it both? Well, I always enjoyed the outdoors sports, but as a spectator, I’m not all that coordinated. And I enjoyed academics, but I don’t really consider myself bookish. Although, you know, I’ve read all the Nancy Drew mysteries from back in the day. So maybe I am. I think I started my scientific career when I was in grade school. Wow. Tell me about your, your favorite parts of exploring nature and the outdoors as a kid. Or was that, was that something that you like doing? So when we lived in Oklahoma, I could walk to school and you had to, you know, cross this little creek on the way to school. And in the, in the spring, I would pester my mom for mason jars and come home every day with tadpoles, probably decimated the population in the, in the creek. But for sure, I then spent hours, countless hours and days trying to rear these guys into little frogs, I admit to having lost some. But those, yeah, those were the beginnings. And by high school, we were moving around all the time. And by high school, nationally, we had the National Environmental Policy Act. And I kind of felt like I was an environmental sleuth. I mean, as a teenager, I probably arrested with my little brownie camera outside of, you know, outside the gates of some ne’er-do-well looking industries taking shots and speculating what was really going on there. Little did I know, right? Yeah, exactly. And so just to pull on that thread a little bit, was there a place that you were looking at that you were sleuthing out to end up being a ne’er-do-well? an exercise of that curiosity that stayed with you? For me, it’s mostly curiosity. There was one place in my high school days that looking back, I can see, well, I wasn’t far off on that one. But in general, most industries are trying to do the right thing. They’re trying to improve environmentally, whether it’s air, whether it’s water, all the different things. I mean, back in the day, folks were what was usual and customary and we didn’t understand all the consequences, you know, 50 years ago. So yeah, that seems fair. And we have tons of examples of that, you know, in Florida, where you had the, I think most specifically the federal government, you know, thinking you’re doing the right thing. And in the end, I’m thinking of straightening the Kissimmee River, you know, all the way down to Lake Okeechobee and what a mess that made. Absolutely. So where family when you graduated from high school? You mentioned high school? In Georgia, Robbins Air Force Base, one in Robbins, Georgia. Is that, gosh, was that Atlanta or Macon? It’s just south of Macon. Okay. And so you go on to study both biology and chemistry in college. And I was going to ask how you ended up at Mercer for that, but I think I know the answers because it was close by and it’s a really good school. Is that right? arrogance associated with it. It turns out, you know, back in the day we were we were schooled, you know, you can be anything, you know, study hard, the world is your oyster, you can do whatever you want. And I was just arrogant enough to assume that that meant I only needed to apply to the college that I wanted to go to. Go to the college of your choice. Well, I didn’t get in and by then it was It was so late. It was too late to you know kind of go away to school all all of these other choices that I’ve looked at And eliminated because of course I was going to the one school but Mercer had and it is a good school by the way But they had a reciprocal any of the counties adjoining they had you know kind of this admission policy I maybe they assumed you weren’t gonna live on campus I did but I mean Mercer because I had not gotten the college of my choice. You mentioned that three times now, not getting into the college of your choice. So you do not want to mention it? I was trying to avoid mentioning William & Mary, but now I’ve said it. Also a lovely school, but known for chemistry and biology or you want to study something else at William & Mary? years old, you’re not necessarily making these choices based on how the programs look. Grad school, yes. You know, undergraduate, not so much. I just fell in love with it when I visited there and eliminated all my other choices and that was not a good thing. Of course, I got my revenge, if you will, my admissions revenge when they, because I kept my application active. the first semester of my freshman year at Mercer and you know had a little party and burned the thing and As one does when they’re when they’re young. Yes, and so When did the plan to become as as our mutual friend John? Stevenson says when he refers to you as a lake doctor. So when did that materialize? Well, I had many wonderful teachers and professors along the way and in my sophomore year at Mercer, one of my professors who was a University of Michigan graduate said, you know, Ann, you ought to look at going to their field station. University of Michigan’s got this field station up at Douglas Lake. I think you’d like it. I think it broadened your horizons. Long story short, I applied, I went, took my first Limnology class, and I realized at that time I’ve found the career when in fact I couldn’t have articulated, I didn’t even know what a limnologist was. For people either who don’t know, I said lake doctor, but it’s slightly more complicated than that, I understand. What is a limnologist for folks out there that don’t know? Well, so classically, it’s the physical, chemical, and biological science of lakes and reservoirs, surface waters. including myself, are happy if our feet are wet. So we’ve branched out into rivers and streams and wetlands. You know, we pretty much stop at the estuary, you know, where as things start to get salty, we’re less in a comfort zone. Interestingly, it’s generally less about groundwater, or it was, radically over the last 50 years as we realized the interaction between the surface water and the groundwater. Yeah. And that’s especially true here in Florida, obviously, and especially true in two places where you headed up. We’ll talk about that pretty soon. But I want to stick for a second on your choices that you’re making here, which are endlessly fascinating now. So you have this professor you really like, and he says, you’ve got to go to Michigan and you say great, but what I’m actually gonna do is go to the school that is the arch enemy of the University of Michigan. I guess maybe second to Michigan State, which is Notre Dame, but there’s a lot of kismet, luck, fate involved in that as well, I assume? Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, and as you already mentioned, I’m a big college football fan, so that helped too. Although, you know, Michigan would been would have been a good choice as well. But I did end up doing my graduate studies at the University of Notre Dame. Yeah and so you’re at Notre Dame and that’s how I know you more than anything else is that you are all Irish and and so you went to Notre Dame and you meet a dashing young engineer there named Kevin has two degrees from Notre Dame. He went there as an undergraduate and became an electrical engineer, a systems engineer, moved away, worked for a while, came back to graduate school and that is indeed where we met. His family is from Connecticut. He had from back in the day, our girls just found his acceptance letter to you know Notre Dame. So he got into the college of his choice. Unlike me, but it was a match made in heaven. We dated and got married after I finished my degree at Notre Dame. So did you end up in Florida right after that? Tell me because I’ll give you where I’m at in terms of my knowledge of Anne Shortell and Kevin Shortell history. I meet you in 2011. I know you went to Notre Dame. two periods and that’s a that’s a fair number of years there. So what happened after you graduated and you both got married and moved on? So he had already finished and had moved to the Boston area and he was a little bit more of a homebody than me. Recall I’m an Air Force brat, I’ll go anywhere, right? Right. And he grew up in the same house in Connecticut, you know, for his entire childhood Boston, not far away. So I followed him there when we got married. That was a big career decision point, right? You know, do I do a postdoc, da da da da da? We made the decision, well, we’re going to start out in Boston. And we loved Boston. We were all over New England, having, you know, the time of our lives as newlyweds. And, you know, life just intervenes in those times. was skyrocketing, my mom got sick. I mean, you know, my dad and mom had retired to Florida. Our best friends up there at the time were Bill and Wendy Graham. Wendy Graham was, who’s the University of Florida’s head of the Water Institute there now. Back in the day, they had, they had come up and she was at MIT for her doctorate and Kevin and Bill you know, worked at the same small firm. And so we were all fast friends. And they were coming back to Florida and we were looking at the housing and saying, you know, we could do really well in Florida. And Kevin’s like, Florida? Are you, you know, what? But the rest is history, as they say. We moved to Gainesville and stayed there for the entire time we raised our family. And so, yeah, you mentioned raising a family. You have two daughters. What are their names? And So Janet was born in 89 and Jennifer was born in 91. And so you go straight to Gainesville. Are you living in the, or is the house that you have now, is that the same one that you’ve lived in the entire time or have you moved around a little bit since you were there? No, we found that house and that’s been our homestead all this time. Wow, that’s very cool. Yeah, exactly. I can relate, that’s for sure. I’m the son of two Navy brats. But I picked up from my mom the desire not to move all the time. So that’s kind of stuck. My dad used to love, boy, he loved moving. But you’re now both in the private sector, right? And so tell me a little bit about that. Tell me about the work that you did before you ended up in government service. You know, kind of for me, classic environmental consulting, developing clients, trying to help them be successful, mindful of choices that they need to make to develop their product or to deliver energy or whatever their particular challenges were in a cost-effective way, but also in an environmentally responsible way. France all over the country. And there were some fantastic folks that I met along the way, and really with very, very few exceptions, the folks that I was trying to do the right thing. So that was successful. I had fun for a long time. Nice. And then you decide to give all that fun up and come into government at DEP, no less. Yeah, exactly. I mean, when you got there, it was, you know, the trumpets and bugles, a calling, and everyone is very excited to get you in the building, myself included. How did that happen? Yeah, well, serendipity is a real thing, right? Governor Scott was elected. I was invited to be on his transition team. He was looking for a scientist. He got me. Now what are the odds? And my eyes were opened during that time period of, you know, the whole government, the workings of government and the policy aspects. Just, you know, those doors kind of cracked open for me and I saw what some of the possibilities were. And I’m also, you already know this, easily bored. to work in that administration. And, you know, DEP would be the obvious place to start. But as you know, I went there as green as a turnip or something. I don’t think green, I guess the leaves are green. In terms of policy, and you and John Stevenson, who was not the secretary yet, affairs director, sc…

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Ryan Matthews Apr 03, 2023

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In his second-to-last episode of the season, Brett sits down with attorney, lobbyist, and former secretary of the Department of Environmental Protection – Ryan Matthews. They discuss his family’s deep roots in Upstate New York; the example left behind by a renowned attorney and lobbyist father; the joys and challenges of leadership; and his flirtation with a life of crime.To learn more about Section 404 of the Clean Water Act, go here: https://floridadep.gov/water/submerged-lands-environmental-resources-coordination/content/state-404-programTo learn more about the Central Florida Water Initiative, check here: https://cfwiwater.com and here: https://floridadep.gov/water-policy/water-policy/content/central-florida-water-initiative-cfwiTo reach Ryan at his law firm, Gray-Robinson, head here: https://www.gray-robinson.com/offices/tallahassee-flYou can email Ryan directly here: Ryan.matthews@gray-robinson.com Our theme song is “Doing Work For Free”, by Bo Spring Band (Apple Music) (Spotify) (Pandora) Transcript speaker:Welcome to Water for Fighting, where we discuss the past, present, and future of water in Florida with the people that make it happen. I’m your host, Brett Cypherz. As we get into the last two episodes of the first season here at Water for Fighting, I like us to close out with individuals who I think are really going to grab your attention. And that’s why I think it’s so fitting that today’s guest is one of the most well-liked and respected environmental lobbyists working in Tallahassee today. And that’s Ryan Matthews. I had the privilege of getting to know Ryan over a decade ago when he was making his first as the director of office water policy and eventually as a DEP secretary. He would go on to use his skills to represent some of the largest utilities, local governments, professional associations and businesses in the state and is now doing that as a shareholder for the highly regarded Gray Robinson law firm. Now on to the conversation. Welcome to the podcast, Ryan. Oh, are you sure? Thanks. Out of nine guests now that I’ve had on the show, nearly all of them are either from here or somewhere else in Florida. or somewhere other all together and you fit in that last part. You’re from New York, right? I am upstate New York. So, you know, most people see 95% of New York is New York City. I am from CalPastor, Troy, New York. Okay. And so is that the deal is I’ve known people from New York City and that, and basically every place it’s not New York City is, is upstate, right? Is that kind of the deal? Effectively. Yeah. But you’re actually up the state. Upstate. I mean, you know, side of the capital Albany. So the home of Uncle Sam. No big deal. Oh, there’s an actual Uncle Sam. There’s an actual Uncle Sam. Oh, wow. Yeah. Very. There you go. New Saliva. So your mommy and dad are both from Troy, correct? They are as well as I mean, really, the entirety of my extended family is from Troy, New York. So my parents met when they were about 10 years old. at 12. So that’s how it is in New York then. That’s how it is. How do I say small town? I mean small town. Tell me about what, and that’s interesting. I’m like that they, you know, from 12 years old, that’s a huge deal. That doesn’t happen often anymore. It’s a unique story. They lived a couple blocks away from each other. So obviously in elementary school or grade school, if you’re a northerner, they met and, you know, started dating at 12. They took one year off of their relationship from being together. And that was till the time my dad passed at 61, we’re together from 12 years old. Wow. So you said your entire extended family is from Troy. What brought your mom and dad down to Florida then? I mean, the short answer is winter. That’s kind of something that is pretty harsh up there. My dad played quarterback. He was a five, nine quarterback at the University of Rochester. managed to escape Troy for a short period of time. And then he decided to go to law school. And he decided to go to law school at the University of Miami in Coral Gables. And we can get into the issues that caused me as a child later on. But, you know, Escape in New York, they decided to go to Miami. My mom was a registered nurse down there. You know, you’re talking late 70s, early 80s. So from a, you know, health perspective, you’re talking about emergence of HIV and sort of the civil unrest in Miami at the time. I have some great stories about things that occurred. But yeah, it was literally, let’s go to law school. My mom, who was always his partner, said, absolutely, let’s go to Florida. Wow. So he was the one person in the entire Matthews family that figured out that winter is horrible in New York. They all seem to embrace it. Now, you moved down. I think you said eight months old. Is that right? I was eight months. So Born there my dad then took the bar here in Florida And I think while he was sort of looking for next steps I stayed in New York with my mom So he was on sort of this original path that was not you know environmental law And I have a quick story about that. That’s pretty funny. So He was a 3L at the University of Miami last year law school. Had a fairly prominent internship if you will with a criminal defense attorney down there. And this one client just happened to be a you know high-ranking member of a certain drug cartel that they were going to federal court. Ultimately win the case that they were representing this group of gentlemen on and they come home to their really small apartment in a bad area town you know, boxes of chocolates and dozens of roses that are in their apartment. And my mother said, if you represent these people and they know where you live, you’re gonna do something else. So criminal law very quickly became environmental law. Yeah, I hear my dad was in the IRS in the early to late 70s out of Miami, the Miami office, and and my mom did not enjoy his tenure down there, which is why we ended So what was little Ryan Matthews like? You grew up here in Tallahassee though, right? I grew up in Tallahassee. I mean, so when we moved, my dad met Wade Hopping probably early, 1981. We moved to Tallahassee shortly thereafter, probably latter part of that year. So I spent a majority of my life here. Young Ryan Matthews was sports obsessed living in Tallahassee. I mean, we had sort of, conference basketball, FSU basketball. We had, you know, fantastic FSU football at the time. So if there was a baseball, basketball, or football game going on, I was there. How on earth does that work at this point? So you’re from New York, you’re family bills, fans. It’s like, how does the sports dynamic work in the Matthews house? Cause your dad is, University Miami law. Abbot hurricane family. fighting what’s of University of Rochester? It’s a good question, I don’t know. I don’t know. Probably why if I have nine quarter back could actually play football. So not a lot on TV, so I mean Miami though, however. And that’s how it was when you were growing up, was all University of Miami, is that the? Pushed on me from my father, which I rejected outright. I mean, I was a diehard and am a diehard Seminole fan. It may be just in spite of sort of his actual fandom of the University of Miami. So. the relationship that I created, I mean, you can imagine me in my, you know, 10, 11, 12 years old, white right one, two, and three, where I’ve got a father, and for those who knew my father, was not shy about rubbing it in my face that, you know, I just had my heart crushed because we missed another field goal to the right. I think that sort of, you know, it spurned or caused our relationship to be quite dynamic from the start. But I mean, in terms of a North versus South sports relationship, I mean, obviously, it’s much more professional sports related up there. I’ve got family, you know, split in between being Mets and Yankees fans, a lot of New York giant fans. But so college football and the passion that we have down here for college football, I think it’s missing up there. Yeah. Unless you’re a big Syracuse fan, I’m not. was the basketball. You can, they can survive it with that. I have a friend who’s a Syracuse fan, but she’s also a Florida State fan, but she went to the University of Central Florida just to give you an idea of how weird it gets. And we’re gonna get to that in a little bit, cause we’ll have to come, I think we’re gonna have to come back to the sports part when we get to a little bit later when you’re college career, cause you get, you throw all of this giant curveball in there. But I wanna talk about still, you’re a kid, you love sports, is hilarious. By the way, it’s like your dad was for a guy that’s setting up as a litigator. He kind of ended up lobbying like that. I thought it was interesting that you mentioned that because he was one of my favorite people to hear because he was so passionate. He was always grinding at an issue and really passionate about it. So that was an interesting nugget I didn’t expect there. So let’s get back to you as a kid though. Sure. You played baseball. Is that your big one? Did you play like a lot of kids you play a bunch? I played everything. Baseball was the most consistent and it was year round for me, which was a little bit different back then. I mean, this was sort of the onset of travel baseball. Now, you know, every eight year old has a travel something team. Things have changed quite a bit. But yeah, I played baseball year round all my life. So what position did you play? What was your main position? Like what got you to pick past high school travel ball? catcher so I hit left-handed but I threw right-handed and my father used to say that he did not teach me to hit left-handed I simply picked up a bat and hit left-handed and if you can you can do that NBA catcher you’re generally in pretty high demand. Yeah I mean I that always seems to be the way especially when you you know in the in the earlier ranks is no one’s no one’s hitting left I mean where you find a left-handed hitter a left-handed pitcher they’re like gold. That’s just it I mean the vast of kids are throwing the ball right handed from a pitching standpoint. So if you can be left handed, you’ve got to just sort of a one on one. Yeah, curve balls out. And so you ended up in playing baseball at Santa Fe College and that’s in Gainesville, right? It is. It is. I had very briefly attempted to walk on at Florida State University where I attended my freshman year, but realized that that might have been a different caliber player at that point. I saw that in the bio. And my assumption was you go to Santa Fe because you want to try to walk on at UF. But it was used tried floor state and then went to Santa Fe. Yeah, so coming out of high school, I probably had a number of opportunities to play. At Small Division I, a lot of Division II baseball programs was struggling as many 18 year olds do about, you know, what does their future hold? What do they wanna do? How much do they really love? What they love at the time? And I made the decision, you know what? I’m going to try to walk on an FSU, don’t really love baseball, probably played it too much up until that point. And then I think the heartbreak of not making FSU’s team, which I watched all my life, I kind of said, well, maybe I do really like baseball. And so Sanfe was an easy choice. When you say the idea of not making it, is that is not getting drafted or not playing at a… division one school. It’s probably both simultaneously. You know, realizing that just because you were really good in high school doesn’t mean that you’re going to be really good at the best college program or that you’re ultimately going to become a professional baseball player like so many you know, five, six, seven, eight year old boys want. Yeah. So when you’re faced with that reality it was sort of alright well let me play junior college baseball for a couple years, have fun, but also you know, at about 20 say to wake up at 5 a.m. to lift weights and run. Maybe I can just drink beer like a normal college kid. But at that point then, let’s get to the psychology of the decision making at this point. Sure. Your dad’s a University of Miami grad. You grew up a Florida state fan. You got a Santa Fe to play college, perfectly natural thing to do under your circumstances. And then now, help me with the logic train of instead of going back to Tallahassee for the big, you know, the major colleges in Florida, University of Florida, do undergrad. Is that right? It’s true. Well, I mean, a couple of things, right? I was already in Gainesville, so easy transition there. And I love Tallahassee, and I’ve always liked Tallahassee, but it is, for me, it was important to spend time elsewhere and just get to know a different place. And I love Gainesville. Gainesville, the town, is so much fun, kid but my allegiance to Florida State never never waned. Was that was that weird down there you’re going to school in a place where and they’re you know lively. They’re lively. I was pretty vocal about it probably because I was just that you know young guy who wanted to maybe cause some some issues so I proudly wore my Florida State stuff on campus and surprisingly never got punched in the face. That’s yeah. Well you didn’t get punched but you did start a life of crime there. Or is that when the life of crime is there? I dipped my toe, I dipped my toe. Tell me about that. It must feel either vindicating or hilarious or something now because there’s a thousand after market ticket sale services where you can buy yourself tickets however you wish. Yeah, there is. There wasn’t at the time. So we had a really good setup where, you know, for those who attended the University of Florida, we had a house with five guys, caddy corner to the law school. So you’re talking, you know, steps away from the swamp. And you mentioned the liveliness of Gainesville and the students there. So, you know, 2001, UF’s got a good football team. I mean, we’re talking like Rex Grossman days for those who, you know, remember college football well. Tennessee was in town, which east rivalry. You know look, college students get tickets for basically free. And if there was an opportunity to make some money on those tickets, young Ryan Matthews was gonna take advantage of that opportunity. So we had had a tailgate early on in the morning for this big night game as we were want to do. A van with a gentleman with a cardboard sign that said I need tickets hanging out, pulled up into the driveway and I said let’s let’s enter into a transaction my tickets. Turns out that gentleman was an undercover cop. And at the time, scalping tickets was illegal. So yeah, I pleaded no contest to ticket scalping violation. Thankfully, I’m still, you know, statute of limitations or whatnot has passed. I’m okay. I’m gonna say we can put in a word with the governor, try to get that expunge for you. So you graduate after your time in foreign territory at the University of Florida. law school, how much of that is related to your father’s practice? Initially, none of it. I was actually adamantly opposed to doing what my father did. And that’s not a shot in any way, shape, or form. It’s actually the opposite. I revered what my father did and I saw how well respected he was. And I thought, by walking in his shoes, I number one didn’t want to get accused of getting anything because of who he was right or what he did But number two, I also just said why would I want to become an environmental lawyer? It doesn’t make any sense to me at the time right so I was working in DC on the Hill and I was working for Senator Bill Nelson at the time and My father called me And he said listen, you know you’re doing good things. That’s fantastic fact that you’re working for a Democrat in DC. If you want to always for the rest of your professional career work for Democrats then stay in the job you’re in. And I said, well that doesn’t sound…

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Jennifer Fitzwater Mar 27, 2023

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In this episode, Brett has a conversation with recently retired Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission (FWC) Chief of Staff – Jennifer Fitzwater. They discuss how a kid from the Midwest makes her way to law school and a career in resource protection; what it’s like to have been the Chief of Staff for two separate state agencies; the difficult and complicated work going into solving challenges like manatee habitat loss and red tide; and what life’s been like since she rowed off into the sunset.To learn more about what the Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission does, go here: https://myfwc.comTo learn more about manatee protection efforts, check here:https://myfwc.com/research/manatee/rescue-mortality-response/ume/ and here: https://www.manateerescue.orgTo learn more about where Red Tide is appearing and the research to help stop it, head here: https://myfwc.com/research/redtide/statewide/ and here: https://myfwc.com/research/redtide/taskforce/Jennifer also spoke about her concerns regarding Lyme Disease and its potential impact on state workers who spend their days outside. To learn more about the disease and those risks, go here: https://www.floridahealth.gov/diseases-and-conditions/lyme-disease/index.html and here: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S2213078018300100Our theme song is “Doing Work For Free”, by Bo Spring Band (Apple Music) (Spotify) (Pandora) Transcript speaker:Welcome to Water for Fighting, where we discuss the past, present, and future of water in Florida where the people make it happen. I’m your host, Brett Seifers. I’m so excited to introduce this week’s guest, Jennifer Fitzwater. Jennifer spent the last 30 years in public service, but I first met her in 2003 when she was the Legislative Affairs Director of the Florida Department of Environmental Protection. She would go on to become the Chief of Staff of that agency and ultimately retired as the Chief of Staff of the Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission. Now onto the conversation. Welcome to the podcast, Jennifer. Thanks, Brett. Glad to be here. So you retired from public service last September after a 30 year run state government How’s retired life treating you? Retired life is awesome Yeah, retired life is great Brett. Well before we started recording you talked about how that happened Which was like the immediate decompression going to was it Europe? I did I went to I went to Europe So the short version of the long story is I retired on Friday, Saturday. I was on an airplane to France where we spent three two and a half weeks. Wow. Awesome. So yeah, it was easy to kind of walk away and change get a change in mindset. Yeah. And we’ll get to some of that mindset in a little bit, but I want to start by going all the way back to the beginning. in St. Louis, Missouri, which I did not know before I saw your your bio, but you still have immediate family there, right? I do. All of my immediate family, my father and my brother, both still are in St. Louis, so I go there somewhat regularly to visit folks and, you know, kind of go go to the old stomping grounds. What was Jennifer Fitzwater like as a kid? I mean, did you enjoy the outdoors? I did. I did. I was an athlete from when I was very young. I started gymnastics when I was five, so there was a lot of that. But as far as family life and growing up in my neighborhood, we were always outside. Our neighborhood had woods right behind the neighborhood and a big field, so me and the neighborhood kids were always out getting into trouble. Every year our vacations we went camping to all the state parks throughout Missouri. So we spent a lot of time outside. That’s some gorgeous ones there too. What was your favorite in around there? When I was a kid, Elephant Rocks State Park, which is southeast part of the state, was always a fun one. Merrimack River State Park. That was close to St. Louis. But I had an opportunity. ago to go back up to Missouri in the south central part of Missouri to go to one of their newest state parks, Echo Bluff State Park. And that is beautiful. It’s absolutely gorgeous. It’s in the Ozark Mountains, kind of midway between Poplar Bluff and Springfield. Wow. You mentioned gymnastics. You’re a competitive rower. As long as I’ve known you, you’ve been a competitive rower. Did you do rowing back then as well or other sports, No, growing up it was mostly gymnastics. We did a little bit of track and field, but nothing as much as gymnastics. I started rowing in 1998 here in Tallahassee. So after I was out of college, had a job, been working for a few years, I saw a little ad in the Newspen, the Tallahassee Democrat, hey, did you ever want to learn how to row? And I was like, that. So going back to Missouri, you got your undergraduate degree in Missouri. Tell me about I want to understand the distinction. Yeah, I just think it’s all in Mizzou, but is it in my mind is University of Missouri Columbia? University of Missouri, Columbia is what people think of as Mizzou. And yes, that’s where I did my undergraduate work. But you ended up at Alvern University graduate school, is that right? Correct. How did you get, why Auburn? Like how did you get to Auburn? Great question. When I was at the University of Missouri, my undergraduate degree was in Fisheries and Wildlife Science and I wanted to, after I got my bachelor’s degree, I wanted to go on to get my master’s degree. And so I was looking for professors around the country in wildlife on things that I wanted to work on. And there was a professor at Auburn University doing waterfowl research. So I went down to work with him. That was really how I got to Auburn. It had nothing to do with the school itself, or the location. It was all about going down and working with him. Oh, that’s, I mean, that’s really, you know, that’s cool to see something like that and then go after it in that way. It was a little bit of a culture shock, I guess. growing up St. Louis. I don’t know if you’ve ever been to Auburn, but in 1986, it was really small. I have a cousin and I don’t know if she’ll hear this podcast ever, but she went to Auburn University the same time and was in some of the same classes as Bo Jackson. And so it was that same period. I wasn’t in that way. But she seemed to love it, but it was a small school, right? The school, I mean, Auburn was the school. I mean, you know, the town, it was there, you know, at least when I was there. It’s certainly grown since I’ve been there. So you’re, you’re undergrad and your graduate degrees, both in, and again. And so obviously, when you, you talk to your master’s degree and wildlife science, you know, under your you obviously go to law school. Obviously, because that’s what everyone did. Did any of your classmates go to law school? No, and I don’t know anyone in the wildlife program, whether Missouri or at Auburn that’s ever gone to law school, nor have I met a fellow lawyer that has a wildlife degree. So, no, it was not the most common thing to do. Yeah. So why? So when I was, as I mentioned, when I went to Auburn, it was to do, to work with my major professor on waterfowl research. I quickly learned that I didn’t have the patience to do field work and data collection. My master’s thesis was dealing with wood ducks and their nesting behavior, and to get enough data to be statistically significant. worth of data collection. And I knew what the answer to the hypothesis was going to be two months in. So I, yeah, I didn’t have the patience to do it. Well, that’s the, that’s the magic of being an attorney I hear is being, being right both all the time and immediately. So playing, playing to your strengths there then. Yeah. Yeah. So right out of law school, you go straight to the Department of Environmental Was that before it merged you know with DNR to become DEP as we know it now I Started with the Department of Environmental Regulation in October of 92 the A couple things happened The secretary at the time when I started was Carol Browner President Clinton tapped her to be secretary of EPA December of and she was confirmed in January of 93. That year, 93, the Florida legislature combined Department of Natural Resources and Department of Environmental Regulation. So I can’t, I think that was a March, May session. So, you know, starting May is when that transition started to take place. So, you know, six months in, I was at a new place. That’s, yeah, that’s crazy. I mean, feel like there was some sort of bait and switch or was it just like, Hey, you know, I’m right out of law school. This is how it’s going to be. And you just go, yeah, it was, it was just, we, we all went with the flow. I mean, for the most part, the two agencies were doing, so I was in the legal office at the time. So all of the lawyers that were with the department of environmental regulation, they were dealing with, you know, regulatory aspects of things. they were dealing with totally different things. So it wasn’t like there was a turf war over who’s gonna get the job to do whatever. We were all just doing very different things. Were they shocked to have, so you have the merge and your DER and these DNR scientists are looking over and they find out this lawyer is actually a scientist. I mean, did that help in that merge period or to give you street cred with your DNR partners? You know, honestly, at the beginning of the merger, I didn’t really have a whole lot of interaction with many of the DNR folks. Again, I was working, when I started in the General Counsel’s office, I was working on water issues. So mostly industrial wastewater issues. So when we merged, I was still doing those kinds of things. So I didn’t. certainly a wildlife degree wasn’t of any particular import to, you know, industrial wastewater, but the science behind it I think was helpful if for no other reason than just to understand conversations that people were having and you know kind of have that basic science background was helpful. For people like me who do not have you know hard sciences background it takes you a lot longer to learn the vocabulary and a lot more listening to understand what folks are saying. But you mentioned the type of case. I think at one point you mentioned you also worked on Everglades related issues. Or was it largely just, hey, we’re just doing compliance issues and things like that. So I did a little bit of all of it. So kind of the trajectory, if you will. When I started I was, I also handled some domestic wastewater issues. Those aren’t really very exciting and they’re all pretty similar around the state. Give me some poor utility guy out there saying, but I think it’s a similar. Yeah, they’re very, I mean, they’re important. Yeah, it’s important. But it’s not glamorous headline unless of course there’s some sort of spill or something. I was very fortunate that I got to work on some pretty high profile cases and the industrial, wastewater area. So worked on a couple big paper mill cases, a lot of phosphate industry cases. And I got to work on and I, you may remember this from a long time ago, but I had an opportunity to work on a project. I think this was like mid 90s, mid to late 90s. It was in Tampa Bay. It was the Tampa, Tampa water resource recovery project. And Fascinating project that I think was just way ahead of its time. It was an indirect portable reuse project. Oh, okay But the process that they used or that we used was just very different and it was designed that so that everybody all the regulators from the federal state and local side of things all of the engineers from the project side of things all of the public were throughout the entire process. So that at the end, every permit was going to be issued at one time and it was a fascinating project. It took a lot of work and a lot of time. A lot of people were involved and unfortunately it was just I say it was ahead of its time because people were not ready. People in the Tampa Bay region were not ready to you know take Howard F. Curran wastewater and put it in the Hillsborough River just upstream from the water, drinking water intake. But that issue, as all issues do, is back, right? And I think the level of discomfort is changed to something else to maybe more of a recognition of reality in that sense. I think so. I think so. I think back then it was just so, we weren’t in the position that we are now our water resources. So I think there’s just more acceptance of, hey, we’re gonna really have to be creative to provide for our water supply issues. It seems like that process, it’s an interesting one and one that I’ve seen a few times and I’m gonna throw an acronym out there and not knowing what it stands for. ETDM, do you remember? Oh yeah, Efficient Transportation Decision Yeah. Matrix sounds more fun. Matrix sounds more fun. But that mean, but that was, it’s a successful way of bringing people into understanding the, surprising that that’s not used more often. Well, it was a, it was a hard process because not only, so you’ve got a couple of different state agencies and so for that particular project, you had a couple of different state agencies. You had the federal government there. So you had the Corps of Engineers. had the Environmental Protection Agency. So that comes with all of the federal rules of what they can talk about and what they can share in an open forum. And then you have the public. I mean, it’s a lot of work. It’s a lot of work. Yeah, and then the disappointment at getting to the end of it is like, okay, well, that was fun. Well, that was really fun. It was great working with all of you. I got a piece of the, I got a square of the card. bit from the room we were in. Oh, that’s hilarious. It’s a memento. Fair enough. All that to say, I had a real opportunity because of the bosses that I had that they let me work on some of these projects, which then led me into working on Everglades issues. Nice. And the assumption is that over that period of time, you show yourself capable of working across other working on big issues and that leads me to when I met you. I think it was probably 2002, 2003 at the latest and you were already the Legislative Affairs Director at the department. Right. But that had started pretty soon before that, is that right? It started, I started working on legislative issues while I was still on The general counsel at the time really had the foresight to go to the legislative affairs director and say, hey, it would be really helpful if you had a lawyer helping with reviewing legislation, drafting legislation, helping on that end on a full-time basis. I mean, certainly there was always the consultive process where they come back. to do it full time. So I started working with the legislative affairs department probably around 99 maybe 1999, which then led to doing congressional work in the 99-2000 era, which going back to Everglades, that was the time period when SERP was being negotiated, written, and developed. So. Wow. I mean, what an interesting time though to be put into a position like that. Yeah. It was surprising to me, honestly. Because I was, you know, didn’t even have 10 years under my belt. And it was, hey, go to Washington, figure this stuff out. This is so then you’ve demonstrated another facet of aptitude then in terms of dealing with, you know, legislative issues, policy issues. So I was going to ask like this, was that transition hard going from what you’re doing before to being in the guts of an agency to being in front of legislators? But you were doing that. You were essentially already doing that, except on a more federal level. And then did you get pulled into some of those conversations with the state legislature as well during that period? I did. I did. I had the legislature. legislative affairs director at the time was gracious enough to allow me to be part of the conversation and to have that opportunity. So before I became legislative affairs direct…

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