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    True Crime

    True Crime Conversations

    True Crime Conversations explores the world’s most notorious crimes by speaking to the people who know the most about them. Hosted by Gemma Bath.

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    Latest Episodes:
    The Dunblane Massacre: Britain's Deadliest Mass Shooting Jun 02, 2021
    Show notes

    It’s a Wednesday morning in March 1996, and the bell sounds at Dunblane Primary School near Stirling in Scotland.

    Students scramble to their classrooms, their minds are caught up in homework and friendships, and the game they were just playing in the yard.

    A class of twenty-eight Primary 1 pupils, aged between four and six, congregate in the gymnasium, preparing for their morning PE lesson.

    In a nearby classroom sits an eight-year-old boy whose name is Andy. He has blue eyes and sandy coloured hair and loves nothing more than tennis. On the weekends, he plays adults. Sometimes he even beats them. Today, he is known as Andy Murray, one of the greatest tennis players to have ever lived.

    It’s just after 9:30am when eight-year-old Andy hears something.

    Two gunshots just outside his classroom.

    They sound like they’re coming from the gymnasium.

    The man holding the gun has on him 743 cartridges of ammunition. He’s already cut cables at the bottom of a telegraph pole at the school’s entrance and he’s about to execute the deadliest mass shooting in British history.

    25 years later the question remains: why?

    Who was this man, armed with more weapons than anyone could ever need, marching into a local primary school?

    And is there a world in which this massacre could have been prevented?

    CREDITS

    Guest: Christopher Berry-Dee

    Host: Jessie Stephens

    Producer: Gia Moylan

    Audio Producer: Ian Camilleri

    RESOURCES WE USED:

    Andy Murray: The Man Behind the Racquet

    Judy Murray | THE DUNBLANE MASSACRE | Driving Force

    CONTACT US

    Tell us what you think of the show via email at truecrime@mamamia.com.au

    Join our closed Facebook community to discuss this episode. Just search True Crime Conversations on Facebook or follow this link https://bit.ly/tcc-group

    If any of the contents in this episode have caused distress, know that there is help available via Lifeline on 13 11 14 or Beyond Blue on 1300 22 4636

    See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

    Mamamia acknowledges the Traditional Owners of the Land we have recorded this podcast on, the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation. We pay our respects to their Elders past and present and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander cultures.

    Become a Mamamia subscriber: https://www.mamamia.com.au/subscribe

    See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.


    The Belrose Bomb May 26, 2021
    Show notes

    It’s June 15, 1998, a cool winter’s evening on Sydney’s northern beaches.

    The leafy, quiet and friendly suburb of Belrose is located about 19 kilometres northeast of Sydney’s CBD. For a man named Brett Boyd, it's no accident he lived there.

    The 27-year-old had moved away from the bustling nightlife of Kings Cross. His friends were involved heavily in the club scene - some dealing drugs like cocaine. Elements of the work had begun to scare him, and so he retreated to a suburb where he felt safe.

    Arriving home on that Monday in June at about 6:30pm, Brett noticed a package waiting at the door. It was addressed to his girlfriend, 23-year-old bikini model Simone Cheung. They’d met through a mutual friend and had been dating for a few years.

    Simone wasn’t home at the time, and so Brett instinctively picked the package up.

    A neighbour would later report hearing a loud explosion. The kind of sound that stood out. They then saw Boyd walk from his doorstep on Opala St, before collapsing.

    An explosion had broken windows and blasted holes through the carport. Debris even landed on the roof of the shed next door.

    What Brett had picked up was a bomb designed to kill.

    But who had left it there? And why was it addressed to his girlfriend?

    When Brett woke up in hospital, he was convinced he knew.

    CREDITS

    Guest: Poppy Damon and Alice Fiennes

    Host: Jessie Stephens

    Producer: Gia Moylan

    Audio Producer: Ian Camilleri

    RESOURCES WE USED:

    Former fugitive breaks silence 17 years after accused of notorious hate crime | 60 Minutes Australia

    CONTACT US

    Tell us what you think of the show via email at truecrime@mamamia.com.au

    Join our closed Facebook community to discuss this episode. Just search True Crime Conversations on Facebook or follow this link https://bit.ly/tcc-group

    If any of the contents in this episode have caused distress, know that there is help available via Lifeline on 13 11 14 or Beyond Blue on 1300 22 4636

    See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

    Mamamia acknowledges the Traditional Owners of the Land we have recorded this podcast on, the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation. We pay our respects to their Elders past and present and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander cultures.

    Become a Mamamia subscriber: https://www.mamamia.com.au/subscribe

    See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.


    Buried Without A Body: The Murder Of Helen McCourt May 19, 2021
    Show notes

    It’s 4pm on the 9th of February, 1988.

    A 22-year-old woman named Helen McCourt, with long, dark brown hair picks up the phone.

    She's about to leave work at the Royal Insurance office in Liverpool, having negotiated with her boss to leave an hour early.

    Helen is ringing her mother, Marie. She tells her that tonight she’ll be going out with her new boyfriend, but asks that her mother have tea ready when she arrives home so she’ll have enough time to wash her hair.

    Marie agrees. Sitting with her daughter Helen and discussing her work or her relationships or her friendships are among one of her favourite things to do.

    Once Helen puts down the receiver, she walks out into the wintery afternoon. It's raining, with fierce gusts of winds, as is often the case in northern England. In just a few hours, the temperature will be near freezing.

    Helen estimates it will take her about an hour and fifteen minutes to arrive home, which she shares with her mother and younger brother in Standish Avenue.

    But 5:30pm comes and goes. Helen’s tea goes cold. Her mother looks out the window at the foul weather making the streets unbearable.

    Where is Helen?

    And how close has she come that evening to opening the front door?

    CREDITS

    Guest: Marie McCourt

    Host: Jessie Stephens

    Producer: Gia Moylan

    Audio Producer: Ian Camilleri

    CONTACT US

    Tell us what you think of the show via email at truecrime@mamamia.com.au

    Join our closed Facebook community to discuss this episode. Just search True Crime Conversations on Facebook or follow this link https://bit.ly/tcc-group

    If any of the contents in this episode have caused distress, know that there is help available via Lifeline on 13 11 14 or Beyond Blue on 1300 22 4636

    See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

    Mamamia acknowledges the Traditional Owners of the Land we have recorded this podcast on, the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation. We pay our respects to their Elders past and present and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander cultures.

    Become a Mamamia subscriber: https://www.mamamia.com.au/subscribe

    See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.


    The Husband Poisoner May 12, 2021
    Show notes

    For Desmond Butler, it began with a headache. Then diarrhoea. Nausea that felt like a hangover.

    He was otherwise a healthy man, not yet 30. He shared two children with his wife Yvonne Gladys Butler, a striking woman, small and doll-like. Desmond also attracted the attention of neighbours, with dark, thick floppy hair, an athletic physique and perhaps a wandering eye.

    It was October 1947, and the young couple lived in a small house in the then working-class suburb of Newtown in Sydney.

    But back to Desmond’s headaches.

    Over the course of a week, his symptoms worsened.

    Extreme fatigue. Aches and pains throughout his whole body, and a strange stiffness in his legs. Pins and needles travelled to his feet.

    Before long, Desmond saw a doctor. They could find nothing, physically, wrong with him. The doctor’s order was Bonox… a drink otherwise known as beef tea. It was gentle on the stomach and high in iron, concentrating also the nutrients from beef in a drink. Every night, Yvonne continued to serve him Bonox. But his condition did not improve. It got worse.

    While out with friends one night, Desmond fell to the floor. His legs were no longer working. He shouted at the top of his lungs: “I feel like I’m on fire!” Rushed home and put to bed, his friends didn’t know what to make of Desmond’s mystery illness. Was it possible he was putting it on?

    As time wore on, neighbours began to notice a smell around the Butler house. It smelt like urine and faeces. Desmond no longer had control of his bowel, and Yvonne could only wash him with a sponge in bed given she was unable to lift him. His screams were heard throughout the neighbourhood - like an animal in excruciating pain.

    Finally, he was rushed to hospital again.

    A friend explained to the doctor: “He’s in so much pain he’s been threatening to eat poisoned wheat. His wife told us so”.

    He likely didn’t know what the repercussions would be for such a statement.

    Desmond was not admitted to hospital. He was taken into custody. In 1947, suicide was a crime. And Desmond had just threatened it.

    And so people believed Desmond Butler had lost his mind - imagining symptoms for which there was no physical explanation.

    But they were real.

    And they did have a physical explanation.

    But by the time police made a startling discovery, it would all be too late.

    CREDITS

    Guest: Tanya Bretherton, author of The Husband Poisoner

    Host: Jessie Stephens

    Producer: Gia Moylan

    Audio Producer: Ian Camilleri

    CONTACT US

    Tell us what you think of the show via email at truecrime@mamamia.com.au

    Join our closed Facebook community to discuss this episode. Just search True Crime Conversations on Facebook or follow this link https://bit.ly/tcc-group

    If any of the contents in this episode have caused distress, know that there is help available via Lifeline on 13 11 14 or Beyond Blue on 1300 22 4636

    See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

    Mamamia acknowledges the Traditional Owners of the Land we have recorded this podcast on, the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation. We pay our respects to their Elders past and present and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander cultures.

    Become a Mamamia subscriber: https://www.mamamia.com.au/subscribe

    See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.


    The Man Who Murdered Luke Batty May 05, 2021
    Show notes

    It was February 12, 2014, a hot summer evening, and eleven year old Luke Batty was at cricket practice on a sports oval in the Melbourne suburb of Tyabb.

    With blue eyes and dark blonde hair, Luke had just started Year Six. He was happy and empathetic, a best friend to his single mother Rosie.

    Rosie was on one end of the cricket ground, and his father, Greg Anderson was at the other.

    After speaking to his father, Luke ran back over to Rosie and said: “Oh mum, I haven’t seen dad for a while. He’s asked me if I can have a few extra minutes.”

    Rosie remembers thinking, “Aw that’s nice.”

    She had invited someone over for dinner, and Greg had coaxed Luke over to the cricket nets. Suddenly, the park stood still in response to a sound of anguish, unlike anything they’d ever heard.

    Her former partner, in what felt like the blink of an eye, struck his son with a cricket bat before stabbing him to death.

    In the hours following, Anderson resisted arrest and threatened paramedics with his knife. Police had no choice but to shoot. He died in hospital from both gunshots and self-inflicted stab wounds.

    What happened to Luke is a story that haunts Australia more than seven years later. In response, his mother Rosie Batty has dedicated her life to campaigning for domestic violence reform and has fundamentally changed the conversation about family violence.

    CREDITS

    Guest: Rosie Batty

    Host: Jessie Stephens

    Producer: Gia Moylan

    Audio Producer: Ian Camilleri

    CONTACT US

    Tell us what you think of the show via email at truecrime@mamamia.com.au

    Join our closed Facebook community to discuss this episode. Just search True Crime Conversations on Facebook or follow this link https://bit.ly/tcc-group

    If any of the contents in this episode have caused distress, know that there is help available via Lifeline on 13 11 14 or Beyond Blue on 1300 22 4636

    See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

    Mamamia acknowledges the Traditional Owners of the Land we have recorded this podcast on, the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation. We pay our respects to their Elders past and present and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander cultures.

    Become a Mamamia subscriber: https://www.mamamia.com.au/subscribe

    See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.


    Dennis Costas: The Murderer Who Forgets Apr 28, 2021
    Show notes

    In July 2011 a man named Dennis Costas called in sick to work. He told his employer he was suffering from sciatica. For the rest of the afternoon, he drank heavily, characteristic of a man with a serious drinking problem.

    Speaking to Dr. Richard Taylor, he said he couldn’t remember much from that day.

    “My recollection is very distorted…” he said. He took a nap at some point and “After that,” he explained, “I really don’t know what happened. All I can remember is putting out the fire. My vision was blurred. I heard a voice and I came out of the flat door. I went back in again and then out to the lobby. There was a fire in the living room, and I put water on it.”

    There was a lot he said he couldn’t remember from that afternoon, and into the early hours of the next morning.

    At 3.50am, police were called to a four storey low-rise apartment block in Upton Park, East London, by a resident who said they were awoken to banging on their door.

    When police arrived, residents were scattered across the carpark. Police ran to the top storey, where they saw a person walking towards them, like something out of a horror movie.

    One police officer said he had never seen anything like it before. The person had burns to their face and body, and the officer said: “For a split second, a feeling of unreality overcame me.”

    Eventually, the person gave her name as Sophia.

    She had arrived home at 3am and her former boyfriend had been waiting inside.

    He doused her in petrol. And lit a match.

    That man, she said, was Dennis Costas.

    A man who claimed he had no recollection of what had taken place.

    So, had Dennis been involved?

    And, why didn’t he remember it?

    CREDITS

    Guest: Dr. Richard Taylor, author of Mind Of A Murderer

    Host: Jessie Stephens

    Producer: Gia Moylan

    Audio Producer: Leah Porges

    You can listen to The Quicky's episode about the George Floyd Trial here.

    CONTACT US

    Tell us what you think of the show via email at truecrime@mamamia.com.au

    Join our closed Facebook community to discuss this episode. Just search True Crime Conversations on Facebook or follow this link https://bit.ly/tcc-group

    If any of the contents in this episode have caused distress, know that there is help available via Lifeline on 13 11 14 or Beyond Blue on 1300 22 4636

    See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

    Mamamia acknowledges the Traditional Owners of the Land we have recorded this podcast on, the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation. We pay our respects to their Elders past and present and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander cultures.

    Become a Mamamia subscriber: https://www.mamamia.com.au/subscribe

    See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.


    The Queensland Backpacker Murder Of Mia Ayliffe-Chung Apr 21, 2021
    Show notes

    It’s August 23, 2016, in a sleepy Queensland town named Home Hill, south of Townsville.

    Shelley’s Backpackers is a modest hostel in the small regional town, where backpackers on working holiday visas stay while completing their mandatory farm work.

    The days are long. And hot. They see snakes and operate heavy machinery without any training. Aren’t those brown snakes meant to be deadly, they think to themselves. At night, they sleep in dormitories, some sharing rooms with strangers.

    On the evening of August 23, a few of the British backpackers go to the pub. They have a few beers and something to eat, before heading back for an early night. Among them, is a 21-year-old woman named Mia Ayliffe-Chung. Another is Chris Porter.

    When they return to the hostel, everyone climbs into their separate beds and drifts off to sleep.

    Mia, at this point, had only been working there a week. Already, though, she was anxious. Something was troubling her.

    A few hours later, Chris awoke to screams, unlike anything he’d ever heard.

    Something was terribly wrong.

    And shockwaves were sent from this tiny Queensland town, all the way back to England.

    CREDITS

    Guest: Rosie Ayliffe, author of Far From Home

    Host: Jessie Stephens

    Producer: Gia Moylan

    Audio Producer: Ian Camilleri

    CONTACT US

    Tell us what you think of the show via email at truecrime@mamamia.com.au

    Join our closed Facebook community to discuss this episode. Just search True Crime Conversations on Facebook or follow this link https://bit.ly/tcc-group

    If any of the contents in this episode have caused distress, know that there is help available via Lifeline on 13 11 14 or Beyond Blue on 1300 22 4636

    See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

    Mamamia acknowledges the Traditional Owners of the Land we have recorded this podcast on, the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation. We pay our respects to their Elders past and present and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander cultures.

    Become a Mamamia subscriber: https://www.mamamia.com.au/subscribe

    See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.


    The Ugly Business Of Illicit Sex In America Apr 14, 2021
    Show notes

    Los Angeles is known as the city of dreams.

    The most populous city in California, Los Angeles is surrounded by mountain ranges, forests, beautiful beaches belonging to the Pacific Ocean and desert.

    It is the home of countless celebrities - and even more who hope to become celebrities. It is the land of hope.

    But Los Angeles is also one of the largest sites of human sex trafficking in the United States.

    If you were to drive down Figueroa Street at night, you’d see women on the sidewalks in bikinis, high heels and short dresses, even in the depths of winter. You’d also see cars parked nearby. Inside are their pimps, keeping a close eye on the women who work for them.

    If you asked any of those pimps, they’d tell you that those women choose to work for them.

    But for some of these women, is it really a choice?

    CREDITS

    Guest: Mariana Van Zeller the host of Trafficked

    Host: Jessie Stephens

    Producer: Gia Moylan

    Audio Producer: Ian Camilleri

    CONTACT US

    Tell us what you think of the show via email at truecrime@mamamia.com.au

    Join our closed Facebook community to discuss this episode. Just search True Crime Conversations on Facebook or follow this link https://bit.ly/tcc-group

    If any of the contents in this episode have caused distress, know that there is help available via Lifeline on 13 11 14 or Beyond Blue on 1300 22 4636

    See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

    Mamamia acknowledges the Traditional Owners of the Land we have recorded this podcast on, the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation. We pay our respects to their Elders past and present and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander cultures.

    Become a Mamamia subscriber: https://www.mamamia.com.au/subscribe

    See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.


    The Apology Line Apr 07, 2021
    Show notes

    A man calls a phone number in Manhattan.

    His name is Johnny. And he has a confession.

    The phone line connects him to Mr Apology. A man whose real name is Allan Bridge, an artist performing a long-form social experiment.

    There are posters up all around New York City, inviting “amateurs, professionals, criminals…” who have “wronged people.”

    It continues: “It is to people that you must apologise, not to the state, not to God, get your misdeeds off your chest.” The instructions read, “describe in detail what you have done and how you feel about it.”

    The messages were to be recorded, and at some point, played for the public.

    Johnny’s voice bellowed down the receiver.

    He spread AIDS to both genders, he confessed.

    It was the 1980s - and the AIDS crisis was rapidly accelerating. It seemed Johnny had no desire to change.

    Johnny’s voice was among thousands and thousands who would call the hotline over fifteen years.

    Some were ordinary civilians. Some were criminals. Their confessions were shocking. And the project itself would take its toll on Mr Apology.

    CREDITS

    Guest: Marissa Bridge, host of 'The Apology Line' podcast

    Host: Jessie Stephens

    Audio Producer: Ian Camilleri

    Producer: Gia Moylan

    CONTACT US

    Tell us what you think of the show via email at truecrime@mamamia.com.au

    Join our closed Facebook community to discuss this episode. Just search True Crime Conversations on Facebook or follow this link https://bit.ly/tcc-group

    If any of the contents in this episode have caused distress, know that there is help available via Lifeline on 13 11 14 or Beyond Blue on 1300 22 4636

    See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

    Mamamia acknowledges the Traditional Owners of the Land we have recorded this podcast on, the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation. We pay our respects to their Elders past and present and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander cultures.

    Become a Mamamia subscriber: https://www.mamamia.com.au/subscribe

    See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.


    Exposing The Secrets Of Luna Park's Ghost Train Fire Mar 31, 2021
    Show notes

    It’s a cold winter’s night at Sydney’s Luna Park, nestled in the northern shore of Sydney Harbour. It’s June 9, 1979, and swarms of people ride the roller coaster and play inside Coney Island. The Tagline for the amusement park is “just for fun” - and it’s arguably one of the biggest attractions in Sydney.

    But one of the most popular rides is The Ghost Train, which runs along 180 metres of electric track, most of it in total darkness. Dancing skeletons and dragons heads and an imitation fire make the ride spine-tingling, with a haunted voice cackling: “you’ll shiver and quake on the ghost train.”

    It’s almost closing time and a 12-year-old boy named Jason Holman is with four friends, about to board The Ghost Train. For 45 years The Ghost Train has been running, without the slightest incident. Once you’re in, it only goes for two and a half minutes, but that’s enough time to deliver a thrill.

    There’s nothing out of the ordinary. Two of his friends board the ride on one carriage, and then the next two in the following carriage.

    Jason is last.

    Just moments later, Jason’s four friends, students at Waverley College in Sydney, would be dead.

    He will survive, being dubbed the luckiest boy alive.

    But he doesn’t feel lucky.

    42 years later, he still has questions.

    CREDITS

    Guest: Caro Meldrum-Hanna, co-creator of Exposed: The Ghost Train Fire

    Host: Jessie Stephens

    Audio Producer: Ian Camilleri

    Producer: Gia Moylan

    CONTACT US

    Tell us what you think of the show via email at truecrime@mamamia.com.au

    Join our closed Facebook community to discuss this episode. Just search True Crime Conversations on Facebook or follow this link https://bit.ly/tcc-group

    If any of the contents in this episode have caused distress, know that there is help available via Lifeline on 13 11 14 or Beyond Blue on 1300 22 4636

    See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

    Mamamia acknowledges the Traditional Owners of the Land we have recorded this podcast on, the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation. We pay our respects to their Elders past and present and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander cultures.

    Become a Mamamia subscriber: https://www.mamamia.com.au/subscribe

    See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.


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