Transforming Engagement: The Podcast

Latest Episodes:

Youth & Campus Ministry Burnout | Panel with Octavia Miller, Joe Phenisee, and Amanda Rigby Jan 09, 2024

Show notes

If you're a youth or campus ministry leader - or you have one on your staff - you won't want to miss this conversation! Join us today as we bring together a vibrant panel of three exceptional leaders in youth and campus ministry: campus coach Octavia Miller, campus pastor Joe Phenisee, and Reverend Amanda Rigby.

We'll dive into their personal journeys into ministry, explore the challenges leading to burnout, uncover the telltale signs of burnout within their ministries, and gain valuable insights into their joys, frustrations, and aspirations for the pivotal roles they play in guiding and supporting the younger generations within the church. We hope this conversation deepens your understanding of the vital work these leaders undertake.

Youth & Campus Ministry Burnout | Mark DeVries Dec 05, 2023

Show notes

In today's episode, we had the pleasure of chatting with Mark DeVries, the co-founder of the Ministry Architects and the Center for Youth Ministry Training. Mark brings a wealth of experience, having served as the Associate Pastor for Youth and Their Families at First Presbyterian Church in Nashville for 28 years. He joked with us that he is a Youth Minister who is about to enter into Medicare. We are excited to share with you his insights and experiences in youth ministry.

Reflecting on a pivotal moment in his ministry career, Mark opens up about facing burnout in the early 2000s. He emphasizes the crucial need for ministry leaders to have a coach or spiritual director, saying: "I often say to our staff, if you are a coach and you do not have a coach, you are a hypocrite. You don't really believe in coaching; you just believe in your job."

Mark delves into his exploration of systems using the Edwin Friedman Model, highlighting the significance of addressing underlying system issues rather than merely dealing with surface-level content problems.

Drawing on a powerful metaphor, Mark encourages the creation of an "island of viral health" within an organization. He suggests that even in challenging environments, leaders can architect a healthy culture for their ministry.

We are confident that you will discover many, many nuggets of wisdom in this insightful conversation with Mark DeVries.

Each week, we ask our guest to highlight an organization that is doing good work. Mark talks about a local organization in Nashville, the Presbyterian Latinx Ministry Fund, which provides ESL, food pantry, and other support to Nashville's Latinx community.

Youth & Campus Ministry Burnout | Reverend Amanda Rigby & Dr. Elizabeth Watters Nov 28, 2023

Show notes

In our country, the undeniable truth is that a mental health crisis is profoundly affecting youth and families. What if there was a more robust connection between youth ministry leaders and mental health professionals? Could this create a supportive environment for young people and those caring for them?

Today, we welcome Reverend Amanda Rigby, the pastor of Christian Education and Formation at Edenton Street United Methodist Church, and Dr. Elizabeth Watters, a licensed marriage and family therapist. Together, they co-founded The Well Mental and Spiritual Care.

They introduce a groundbreaking model that emphasizes collaboration between a youth ministry leader and a licensed family therapist.

Through their personal experiences, the guests candidly discuss their own seasons of burnout and the strategies they employed (and are still employing) to navigate these challenging seasons.

The conversation extends beyond their individual journeys, addressing the broader societal context of the mental health crisis affecting youth and families. Amanda and Elizabeth stress the importance of collaboration between mental health professionals and youth leaders to establish a supportive environment. They advocate for open conversations, the sharing of personal experiences, and breaking the stigma surrounding mental health in faith settings. Additionally, they underscore the need for safe spaces, proper training, and dedicated budgets for mental health support.

You'll hear Amanda reference another episode she recorded with us in this conversation. Stay tuned to hear more from Amanda on an episode releasing in just a few weeks along with a panel of youth and campus ministry leaders.

We hope this conversation sparks further dialogue and action, encouraging us all to contribute to a more supportive and compassionate environment for the well-being of our young people and those who guide them.

In each episode, we ask our guests to highlight an organization that is doing work. Amanda and Elizabeth point us to The Trevor Project, an international organization whose mission is to end suicide among LGBTQ young people through advocacy, education, and crisis support.

Cited Resources from this Episode:

The Prophetic Imagination by Walter Brueggemann
ARC Framework

More Listener Resources:

If you are a Christian leader or pastor seeking a space for support, growth, and transformation for yourself or for your team, we invite you to participate in one of our cohort programs, called a Circle. To learn more and to get on the waitlist to be notified when our next Circle is offered, click here.
NEW: Get our latest free resource, Disillusionment with Ministry: 4 ways to renew your purpose in the midst of disappointment.
Download the free Clergy Burnout Report

Youth & Campus Ministry Burnout | Charlie Conder Nov 21, 2023

Show notes

We're pleased to welcome Charlie Conder, Lead Coach for the Youth Cartel, an organization dedicated to encouraging and challenging adults who minister to youth through holistic professional coaching. Charlie led a large youth ministry; in fact, her middle school participants grew to be half the size of the entire church. She discusses the challenges she faced as her ministry grew, leading to significant stress and physical and mental burnout.

Charlie emphasizes the importance of recognizing signs of burnout, understanding the manifestation of stress in one's body, and the need for a more holistic approach to leadership. She also shares more about her decision to step away from ministry, the grieving process involved, and the guilt associated with prioritizing personal well-being. The conversation touches on the role of leaders in creating a culture that values self-care, open communication, and supporting one another.

In each episode, we ask our guests to highlight an organization that is doing work. Charlie wanted to shout out Terre Haute Friendship House, which offers an inclusive and affordable housing model that brings individuals with and without disabilities together in community to reach their full potential in Terre Haute, Indiana.

About our guest:

Charlie Conder grew up in rural Illinois but has been living in metro Atlanta, GA for the past 19 years. She has two grown daughters who stop by to shop in the pantry from time to time. Before being called into ministry, Charlie taught Middle School for 6 years. For the last 18 years, Charlie has been serving in the local Methodist Church. She currently works for Orange as an XP3 student specialist and is the Lead Coach for The Youth Cartel. Charlie has never passed a dog that she didn't want to pet and her most favorite thing in the world is a Swedish Fish. But only the OG red ones. You can find her at charlieconder.com and on Instagram at @charlieconder.

Listener resources:

If you are a Christian leader or pastor seeking a space for support, growth, and transformation for yourself or for your team, we invite you to participate in one of our cohort programs, called a Circle. To learn more and to get on the waitlist to be notified when our next Circle is offered, click here.
NEW: Get our latest free resource, Disillusionment with Ministry: 4 ways to renew your purpose in the midst of disappointment.
Download the free Clergy Burnout Report

Youth & Campus Ministry Burnout | Matt Wiggins Nov 14, 2023

Show notes

Welcome to a brand new season of Transforming Engagement, the Podcast! This time, we're diving deep into a topic that's been a long time coming – Youth & Campus Ministry Burnout.

We open this season with a special guest, Matt Wiggins, who sparked our journey into the world of youth and campus ministry burnout. It began when he came across our Clergy Burnout Report during Season 2 and reached out. Matt had an important question: What about the unique challenges faced by leaders working with the younger generation, those often nonordained, part-time, or volunteer youth ministry leaders?

Youth ministry can be a revolving door, with an average staffing turnaround of just 18 months. People step into these leadership roles for various reasons – a stepping stone to their next calling, a deep-seated passion, or sometimes a blend of both.

This season, we'll be delving into the distinct challenges that leaders in youth and campus ministry encounter. From a professional standpoint, they often find themselves underpaid and overworked. Moreover, they can feel somewhat sidelined from the central church leadership structure. While this may sometimes spare them from certain decisions, it can also mean exclusion from representing the very people they serve in crucial church matters.

And let's not forget that youth ministry leaders are on the frontlines supporting a generation facing unique challenges like never before. Gen Z youth have been profoundly impacted by the pandemic, experiencing disruptions to their lives and critical development time lost in connecting with peers, schools, and communities.

Your host for this season is Rose Madrid Swetman, the Associate Director of the Center for Transforming Engagement. We're incredibly thankful to Matt Wiggins for his invitation to explore this pressing topic.

In this exciting season, we'll be joined by leaders in the youth and campus ministry field from across the United States. Together, we'll explore a world of insights, engage in meaningful discussions, and dare to dream about innovative ways to support these dedicated leaders and the generations they serve.

Youth & Campus Ministry Resources:

NEW: Get our latest free resource, Disillusionment with Ministry: 4 ways to renew your purpose in the midst of disappointment at https://transformingengagement.org/resources/disillusionment-with-ministry/
Download the free Clergy Burnout Report at https://transformingengagement.org/pastor-resources
Find the support you need with a cohort of peers in one of our upcoming Resilience Circles. The 2024 waitlist is currently open. Visit https://transformingengagement.org/circles to learn more.
Visit our website to learn more about today's guest, get the transcript, and link to more resources at https://transformingengagement.org/podcast

More related resources from this episode:

Matt and Rose cite these resources and organizations in their conversation: Ministry Architects, Doug Fields, Springtide Research, the Surgeon General's report on Youth Mental Health (2021), and the Barna Report: Pastors Share Top Reasons They've Considered Quitting Ministry in the Past Year (2022)

In each episode, we ask our guests to highlight an organization that is doing work. Matt Wiggins brought our attention to Davidson Lifeline, a grassroots organization in Davidson, North Carolina whose mission is to support mental health awareness and suicide prevention in their community.

Church After Mars Hill | Season Epilogue Aug 08, 2023

Show notes

Catch the final episode in this season of Transforming Engagement, the Podcast, where we've been considering Church After Mars Hill and using The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill as a case study. We've considered a number of aspects of that story:

Patriarchy and mutuality

Whiteness and diversity

Violent imagery and peace making

Toxic cultures and psychological health

Models of church

Art as transaction and transcendence

The move toward a Tov culture.

But as we come to the close of this conversation and the end of this season of the podcast, what are we to do now?

Join us for the final installment of Season 4 of Transforming Engagement, the Podcast, as host Joel Kiekintveld shares his insightful perspectives.

If you've enjoyed this season of Transforming Engagement, the Podcast, please spread the word and share it with your friends!

And if you would like to catch up or re-listen to any episode from this season, you can find them all, including show notes and transcripts, at transformingengagement.org/podcast

Church After Mars Hill | Laura Barringer & Dr. Scott McKnight Aug 01, 2023

Show notes

We're joined this week by father-daughter team, Dr. Scot McKnight and Laura Barringer, co-authors of A Church Called Tov: Forming a Goodness Culture That Resists Abuses of Power and Promotes Healing.

Their book was inspired by the events at Willow Creek Church, prompting them to explore toxic church cultures and the need for change. They contrast toxic church cultures with tov cultures (tov meaning "good" in Hebrew).

In toxic church cultures such as Mars Hill or Willow Creek, the marks include narcissism, fear, institution creep, false narratives, loyalty culture, celebrity culture, and a focus on leadership culture. On the other hand, tov cultures are characterized by empathy, grace, people-first approach, telling the truth, justice, service culture, and Christlikeness culture.

Their book has provided language and hope for those who have experienced toxicity in churches, giving a voice to the wounded resistors. In their upcoming book, Pivot, Scot and Laura focus on the "how" of building tov cultures.

We hope you'll find that this conversation continues our goal of not only exposing the characteristics of toxic church culture but also offering hope for restoration and the rebuilding of a different and healthier community of believers.

Listener resources:

Check out A Church Called Tov: Forming a Goodness Culture That Resists Abuses of Power and Promotes Healing by Scot McKnight and Laura Barringer
Pre-order Scot and Laura's follow up book, Pivot: the Priorities, Practices and Powers that Can Transform Your Church into a Tov Culture , coming in September 2023
Read Laura Barringer's article, "Willow Creek's Core Meeting: A Response" in Christianity Today.
More works referenced in this episode: Lectures on Calvinism by Abraham Kuyper; H. Richard Niebuhr; David Brooks; Organizational Culture and Leadership by Edgar Schein.
If you are a Christian leader or pastor seeking a space for support, growth, and transformation for yourself or for your team, we invite you to participate in one of our cohort programs, called a Circle. To learn more and to get on the waitlist to be notified when our next Circle is offered, click here.

Church After Mars Hill | Dr. Chelle Stearns Jul 25, 2023

Show notes

In this episode of "Church After Mars Hill," host Joel Kiekintveld is joined by Dr. Chelle Stearns to focus on the intersection of art, expression, and theology within the modern Western church.

Many churches invest heavily in elements like worship teams, video production, and visual presentations. However, this often lends itself to one-way communication, prioritizing the leaders and visuals at the front of the room, rather than fostering genuine community-building and open conversations among the congregation.

The conversation centers on the modern church's tendency to view art and worship in a consumer-oriented manner, rather than tapping into their potential to create communal connections.

What if we shifted away from using artistic expression as a transactional or manipulative tool, solely flowing from the stage to the congregation? What if, instead, we invited a communal expression of art, beauty, and wonder - even when it challenges our established beliefs?

By embracing art as a means of encountering the divine, deepening spirituality, and embracing the diverse expressions of beauty within our congregations, churches can create more meaningful and transformative experiences for their congregants and the community they serve.

Listener Resources:

Read works referenced in this conversation: The Return Of the Prodigal Son by Henri Nouwen; The Pastor in the Secular Age by Andrew Root; The Ethics of Beauty by Timothy Patitsas
View Rembrandt's The Return of the Prodigal Son
If you are a Christian leader or pastor seeking a space for support, growth, and transformation for yourself or for your team, we invite you to participate in one of our cohort programs, called a Circle. To learn more and to get on the waitlist to be notified when our next Circle is offered, click here.

Church After Mars Hill | Dr. Dwight Friesen Jul 18, 2023

Show notes

In this episode, we explore a new perspective on church with Dr. Dwight Friesen, who asks us: "How do I start where I am? Wherever I am, how do I discover being church here?" Instead of viewing church as a megachurch attracting distant members, we shift our focus to being church in our own context. We're honored to be joined by Dr. Dwight Friesen, an Associate Professor of practical theology at The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology, who is dedicated to rediscovering the true essence of being a church within a specific place and neighborhood.

To provide some context, Dwight shares his initial connection with Mark Driscoll, the founder of Mars Hill, during the mid-1990s when they were both starting as pastors in Seattle. They even considered merging their churches at one point, but theological differences and subsequent events led them to go their separate ways.

While Mark Driscoll went on to build a megachurch at Mars Hill, Dwight and his partner Lynette took a different approach. They emphasized the significance of community, proximity, and actively listening to the needs of their neighborhood. Instead of imposing a predetermined "church model," Dwight deliberately focused on understanding and addressing the specific needs of their immediate community.

This conversation challenges the traditional megachurch model, which often relies heavily on attracting new members for economic prosperity. Instead, it encourages us to explore how to be church in our current contexts and locations. By paying attention to the culture and listening to the needs of people in our own neighborhoods, we can bear witness to systemic forms of oppression and transformation. This awareness calls for a different kind of faithfulness—an active presence that engages with the realities of the moment.

Dwight raises a thought-provoking question: "How do we discover what it means to participate in what God is doing here without assuming what the good news should look like, but rather being open to discovery?"

Church After Mars Hill | Dr. Doug Shirley Jul 11, 2023

Show notes

As we continue to examine the case study that is Mars Hill Church, we're asking a couple of questions in this conversation:

First, how do we create faith communities that know what abuses of power look like and call those behaviors out?

And second, how do we build environments that seek to be psychologically healthy for everyone?

Our guest this week is Doug Shirley, EdD, core faculty with The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology with expertise in counseling, Divinity, and pastoral community counseling. Doug's passion lies in understanding and improving the emotional, relational, and spiritual lives of individuals in helping and healing professions.

The sheer number of individuals seeking help for mental health issues following the Mars Hill debacle underscores the unhealthy nature of the church environment. Our conversation explores strategies for creating psychologically healthy spaces within faith communities, emphasizing the importance of two-way dialogue, accountability, openness, and honesty.

Listener resources:

This conversation references: Finite and Infinite Games by James Carse; The Priest in Community by Urban T. Holmes, III; The Emotionally Healthy Leader by Peter Scazzero; Life Together by Dietrich Bonhoeffer; Trauma and Recovery and Truth and Repair by Judith Herman, MD; the words and thoughts of Dr. Steve Call from The Reconnect Institute, Nadia Bolz-Weber, Resmaa Menakem, Brian McLaren, Dr. Tali Hariston, and Parker Palmer.
If you are a Christian leader or pastor seeking a space for support, growth, and transformation for yourself or for your team, we invite you to participate in one of our cohort programs, called a Circle. To learn more and to get on the waitlist to be notified when our next Circle is offered, click here.

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