The Voices of War

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109. Chris Gunness: Israel's Opposition to UNRWA and the Campaign to Delegitimise the Organisation Feb 27, 2025

Show notes

Chris Gunness discusses the role and mandate of UNRWA, the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees, and the challenges it faces amidst the ongoing conflict in Gaza. He highlights the size and scope of UNRWA's operations, providing education, healthcare, and social services to millions of Palestinian refugees across the Middle East. Chris also addresses the historical context of the Palestinian refugee crisis and the failure to find a durable solution. He explores the motivations behind Israel's opposition to UNRWA and its campaign to delegitimise the organisation. The conversation delves into the impact of the information war and the desensitisation of the Israeli population to the suffering of Palestinians. The conversation then delves into the impact of the smear campaign against UNRWA, the role of media in shaping narratives, and the asymmetry in the information war. We discuss the systematic efforts to dismantle UNRWA and the consequences of its defunding. The conversation also explores the enduring impact of the recent events in Gaza on geopolitics and the potential for a just and durable solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
Keywords
UNRWA, Palestine, refugees, Gaza, genocide, humanitarian, Israel, mandate, education, healthcare, social services, history, right of return, durable solution, occupation, genocide, asymmetry, information war, desensitisation, UNRWA, smear campaign, media, information war, defunding, humanitarian organisations, Gaza, geopolitics, Israeli-Palestinian conflict
Key Takeaways
• UNRWA is a massive organisation that provides education, healthcare, and social services to millions of Palestinian refugees across the Middle East.
• The Palestinian refugee crisis is a result of the 1948 Middle East War and the failure to find a durable solution, including the right of return for refugees.
• Israel opposes UNRWA and seeks to delegitimise the organisation due to its fear of a demographic shift and the potential loss of a Jewish majority.
• The information war and asymmetry in power contribute to the desensitisation of the Israeli population to the suffering of Palestinians.
• The international community must read and understand the history and context of the conflict to challenge false narratives and work towards a just and lasting solution. The smear campaign against UNRWA and the defunding of humanitarian organisations have had a significant impact on their operations and reputation.
• The asymmetry in the information war, with right-wing Zionists dominating the narrative, has hindered the dissemination of accurate information.
• The recent events in Gaza have further damaged the prospects for a just and durable solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
• The enduring impact of the events in Gaza includes a loss of faith in international law and a potential increase in regional instability.
• There is a need for independent investigations and accountability for the crimes committed during the recent conflict.

108. Return of The Voices Of War Feb 27, 2025

Show notes

In this monologue, I reflect on my absence before expressing frustration with the limited and oversimplified coverage of war and conflict, especially Israel's war on Gaza. I unequivocally criticise Israel's actions, highlighting the need to look beyond headlines and focus on immediate reduction of human suffering. I also announce upcoming interviews with experts to shed light on geopolitical machinations and analyse global conflicts, including Chris Gunness, Francesca Albanese, and David Petraeus.

107. 2023 Wrap-Up: A Year of Insight and Inquiry Feb 27, 2025

Show notes

As 2023 draws to a close, I want to take a moment in this special year-end episode to reflect on the enlightening journey we've embarked on together through 'The Voices Of War.' This year, we’ve traversed a wide array of topics, spanning more than 35 hours of interviews across 26 episodes, reaching over 100,000 downloads, and connecting with listeners in more than 150 countries. Our conversations have taken us deep into the heart of current global conflicts, including the ongoing Russian invasion of Ukraine and the Israel-Hamas war, where we've attempted to unravel the complex layers of these protracted struggles. We've dived into the dark waters of radicalisation, seeking to understand the roots and paths that lead individuals down this route. We explored the rapidly evolving field of artificial intelligence and its ethical implications in both civilian life and warfare, highlighting how technology is reshaping the character of war, if not its nature. We've grappled with the ethics of war, questioning the moral dilemmas faced by those on the front lines and the decision-makers behind them. We delved into war’s impact on mental health, and the unseen scars it leaves on individuals and societies, offering a sombre yet necessary reflection on the unspoken costs of conflict. We’ve looked at dehumanisation, the impact of information on our behaviour and we explored how our desire for status makes us vulnerable to exploitation. All these topics sought to contribute to the same goal—to scratch below the simple narratives of war, that dominate our mainstream and social media channels. Lastly, as I prepare for my transition from the Army to civilian life (a surprise to some but not to others), these conversations have certainly enriched my perspective on the world we live in. I hope they have done the same for you. Thank you for joining me on this journey and here's to continuing our quest for nuance and depth in 2024. #TheVoicesOfWar #2023WrapUp #Podcast #Reflections #GlobalConversations #WarAndPeace

106. Jason Pack – Aspirations of Peace in the Middle East: A Deep Dive into Regional Dynamics and the Global Enduring Disorder Feb 27, 2025

Show notes

Today, I spoke with Jason Pack, author of the acclaimed book ‘Libya and the Global Enduring Disorder’, and a recognised expert on the Middle East. Jason also hosts the excellent Disorder podcast and serves as a senior analyst for emerging challenges at the NATO college in Rome. With over two decades of research in the Middle East, Jason brings a unique perspective to understanding the complexities of the region’s geopolitics.

This is Jason’s second appearance on the show. We first spoke back in May of 22, in Episode 55. That time, we explored Jason’s excellent book and his concept of the Global Enduring Disorder. You can listen to that episode here. Today, Jason joins me to discuss the recent escalation of violence in the Middle East, how it relates to the idea of the Global Enduring Disorder and what we might need to consider when looking for an enduring and just peace in the region.

00:00 Introduction to Jason Pack

Jason discusses his background and the relevance of his work in current global affairs.
Jason shares his transition from studying to focusing on Middle East geopolitics post-9/11, including his experiences in Beirut, Egypt, Syria, and Libya.

06:20 The Concept of Global Enduring Disorder and Orderers vs Disorderers

Jason explains his concept of 'Global Enduring Disorder', contrasting the current global landscape with the past, focusing on the shift from order to disorder.
Jason proposes a perspective to view global politics as a struggle between forces of order and disorder, expanding beyond traditional ideological divides.

13:15 The Impact of American Foreign Policy in the Middle East

An Analysis of the influence and consequences of American hegemony in the Middle East, particularly regarding the Israel-Palestine conflict.

15:15 Interconnected Global Conflicts

Jason discusses how various global conflicts, including the Israel-Palestine issue, are interconnected and influence each other.
Exploring the involvement of Russia and Iran in fostering global disorder, including their potential roles in the Israel-Palestine conflict.

23:05 The Three Blocks of Middle East Geopolitics

Jason categorises the Middle Eastern geopolitical landscape into three distinct groups, focusing on their respective roles and alliances.

25:56 The Pivotal Role of Qatar in Middle Eastern Peace

Jason discusses Qatar's unique position in the Middle East and its potential role in bringing peace and stability to the region.

33:15 The Middle East Peace Process: A New Approach

Exploring a novel approach to the Middle East peace process, involving regional players and addressing underlying causes.

39:10 Addressing Root Causes of the Israel-Palestine Conflict

Discussion about the necessity of addressing the underlying causes of the Israel-Palestine conflict, including the creation of a Palestinian state and the role of external influences.

42:15 The Complexity of the Israel-Gaza Conflict in Global Perception

Jason delves into the reasons behind the global attention on the Israel-Gaza conflict, highlighting the unique position of Jews and Israel in global dynamics and the disproportionate global response to the conflict.

52:38 The Potential of Qatar in Resolving Middle East Conflicts

Jason reiterates the strategic importance of Qatar in bringing peace to the region, emphasising its unique position as a mediator among various conflicting parties.

55:09 The Influence of Gulf States in Global and Regional Politics

Jason discusses the growing influence of Gulf states like the UAE and Qatar in global and regional politics, highlighting their roles in funding, cultural influence, and diplomacy.

01:02:14 Closing Thoughts: Challenges and Hope for Middle East Peace

Jason concludes with his thoughts on the ongoing challenges in achieving peace in the Middle East and the potential for a new approach involving Gulf states to bring stability to the region.

Resources:

The Road to Middle East Peace Runs Through Doha, Foreign Policy: https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/11/07/qatar-israel-hamas-gaza-war-middle-east-peace/
Episode 55. Jason Pack - On the ’Global Enduring Disorder: https://thevoicesofwar.com/55-jason-pack-on-the-global-enduring-disorder/
Jon Wiener Podcast on plan to end war in Gaza: https://www.thenation.com/podcast/world/sms-guttenplan-powers-113023/

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105. Professor Greg Barton - Terrorism, Jihadism, and Violent Extremism: Exploring the Roots and Impacts of Radicalisation Feb 27, 2025

Show notes

Today, I spoke with Professor Greg Barton, a prominent Australian academic with a distinguished career specialising in global Islamic politics and countering violent extremism. His expertise, particularly in the realm of Islamic thought, positions him as a leading authority on issues of terrorism, extremism, and the development of effective interventions. Author of several influential articles and books, Professor Barton offering deep insights into the convergence of religion, politics, and societal challenges. This is Greg’s second appearance on the show. Last time he joined me was on Episode 81, where we discussed the process of radicalisation generally. On that occasion, we used the Russian invasion of Ukraine, the Covid pandemic as well as far fight extremism as the vehicle for our discussion. Today, Greg joins me for a follow-up with a particular focus on the events unfolding in the Middle East and their impact globally. Main topics we covered include: 0:00 Introduction to Professor Greg Barton: A brief introduction to the episode and Professor Barton's background in global Islamic politics and countering violent extremism. 5:52 Deliberate Provocation by Hamas: Analysis of Hamas' tactics in Gaza and their global impact, including use by extremist groups for support generation. 8:10 Waning global support for Israel: An assessment of how global support for Israel might be shifting in the face of their response to the October 7th attack. 16:43 International Humanitarian Law: A reflection on Israeli application of the laws of war on their military operations in Gaza 23:42 Jihadism vs. Islamism: Clarifying the Concepts: A discussion aimed at differentiating between Jihadism and Islamism, with a focus on Hamas. 39:06 Decoding the Radicalisation Process: Exploring the 'triple P model' of radicalisation and how individuals are drawn to extremist ideologies. 44:08 Battle for Hearts and Minds: An analysis of the likely impacts of current military actions in Gaza on future cycles of violence. 53:34 Radicalisation at scale: A reflection on the ongoing global polarisation via mainstream and social media 57:25 Human Nature and Extremism: Emphasising the inherent potential for good in human beings and how this can be leveraged to counteract extremist ideologies. 1:08:20 Greg’s biggest concern: A reflection on how the current situation can descend into an even greater calamity. Professor Barton's insights offer a comprehensive understanding of the intricate dynamics of global Islamic politics, terrorism, and the ongoing challenges in countering violent extremism. His unique perspective combines academic rigour with a deep understanding of the human elements at play in these critical global issues. I hope you get as much out of this conversation as I have. Resources: • You can listen to Greg’s previous episode here. • You can view my short reflection on the current situation here. Finally, don't forget to review, rate, and share The Voices of War to help us continue exploring the complex narratives of war. To comment or take the conversation further, please connect with us here: https://www.thevoicesofwar.com https://www.twitter.com/twitter.com/thevoicesofwar https://au.linkedin.com/company/the-voices-of-war https://www.youtube.com/youtube.com/thevoicesofwar

104. Nadim Shehadi – Beyond Gaza: Unpacking the Middle East’s Entrenched Conflicts and Power Dynamics Feb 27, 2025

Show notes

Today, I spoke with Nadim Shehadi, a distinguished Lebanese economist and academic, who delved into the intricate mesh of Palestinian, Israeli, and broader Middle Eastern politics, economics, and conflicts. With a rich background that spans prestigious positions at the Fletcher School, Chatham House, and Oxford as well as personal experiences of previous wars in Lebanon and beyond, Nadim brings a nuanced perspective to the complexities and tragedies of the region.
Some of the key topics we covered are:
· Gaza Dynamics: Analysing recent events in Gaza, Nadim offers an expert take on the guerrilla warfare tactics of Hamas and the cyclical nature of the conflict with Israel. · Global Reactions: The discussion turns to the diverse international reactions to the Gaza conflict, highlighting the polarising effect on global politics. · Trap Warfare: Nadim introduces the concept of 'trap' warfare, elucidating how Hamas's tactics bait international disapproval for Israel. · Lebanese Sovereignty: The conversation addresses Hezbollah's role in Lebanon, discussing the challenges to Lebanese sovereignty and governance. · Civilians in Conflict: An exploration of the civilian experience in Gaza and Lebanon, emphasizing the human cost of ongoing tensions. · Resistance and Negotiation: Nadim contrasts the methodologies of armed resistance and negotiation in political struggle. · Lebanon's Political Mosaic: A historical overview of Lebanon's political evolution, with insights into its unique culture and the legacy of empires. · Intricacies of Conflict: Nadim delves into the intricate connections between local politics and broader regional dynamics, underscoring the international community's involvement. · Regional Dynamics: The discussion highlights the strategic roles of Arab states, the Gulf region, Egypt, Jordan, the European Union, and the United States in fostering stability. · Critique of U.S. Policy: Nadim offers a critical analysis of the U.S. foreign policy in the Middle East, noting a misalignment with the complex regional context. · Security Concerns for Israel: Insights into Israel's security priorities and the existential challenges it faces from regional adversaries. · Underestimating Iran: A critique of the U.S. administration's oversight of Iran's influence in the region, particularly in relation to the JCPOA. · Policy Proposals Examined: Nadim assesses Antony Blinken's policy proposals, suggesting they lack the depth required to grasp the region's nuanced challenges. · Survival Mentality: The conversation closes with a personal reflection on living under constant threat, depicting the day-to-day reality of Middle Eastern geopolitics.
Nadim Shehadi's expertise sheds light on the historical and current challenges facing the Middle East, offering a profound examination of the power dynamics at play. This episode is a must-listen for anyone seeking to understand the deeper narratives that shape this complex region.
Resources:

Lebanon is revisiting the ghost of the 2006 Israel-Hezbollah war by Nadim Shehadi
Some reflections on events unfolding in Gaza by Vedran 'Maz' Maslic

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103. Dr David Livingstone Smith - Dehumanisation in the Israel-Palestine War and its consequences Feb 27, 2025

Show notes

Today, I spoke with Dr David Livingstone Smith, who is a philosophy professor at the University of New England. He specialises in the study of dehumanisation and mass violence. David is the author of several award-winning books, including ‘Less Than Human: Why We Demean, Enslave and Exterminate Others’ as well as ‘On Inhumanity: Dehumanization and How to Resist It’. David’s most recent book that is: 'Making Monsters, The Uncanny Power of Dehumanisation'. David joined me to provide his expert opinion on dehumanisation we are witnessing as part of the ongoing war between Israel and Hamas. Key Topics Covered:

Dehumanisation and Its Roots: David delves into the psychological and social aspects of dehumanisation, explaining how it serves as a precursor to violence.
Israel-Hamas Conflict: A focus on the risks and implications of dehumanisation in the ongoing war between Israel and Hamas.
The Role of Fear: David discusses how politicians, particularly authoritarian ones, capitalise on fear to manipulate behaviour.
Social Dynamics: The conversation touches on how social forces and community behaviour can either inhibit or encourage violence.
The Power of Public Opinion: David emphasises the need for influential voices to steer public opinion towards constructive solutions.

Resources:

You can find my previous discussion with David here.
David’s Substack, which includes all the essays he mentioned is available here.
Less Than Human: Why We Demean, Enslave and Exterminate Others
On Inhumanity: Dehumanization and How to Resist It

#Dehumanisation #IsraelHamasConflict #SocialDynamics #TheVoicesOfWar #DavidLivingstonSmith #IsraelPalestineWar #IsraelHamasWar #Israel #Palestine #Hamas

102. Special Release: Chris Gunness - Scratching Beneath the Complexity of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict Feb 27, 2025

Show notes

My guest today is Chris Gunness who is a seasoned journalist and diplomat with decades of experience reporting on and working in the Middle East. Chris began his career at the BBC in 1982, and for 23 years, he served in numerous capacities including reporter and foreign correspondent. In 2005, he transitioned to diplomacy, joining the United Nations Special Coordinator for the Middle East Peace Process, and later became the Spokesman for the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees (UNWRA). Post-UN, Chris founded the Myanmar Accountability Project in 2021, which brings criminal prosecutions against members of the Myanmar Junta and he is currently the Director of this initiative.

Chris joined me for his reflections on the tragic escalation of violence in Israel and across Gaza and the West Bank.

Some of the topics we covered include:

Underlying Causes of Conflict: Chris delved into the root causes of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, highlighting the blockade of Gaza, the ongoing Israeli occupation and unfettered settlement expansion.
The Blockade of Gaza: Chris discussed Israel's control over Gaza's land, sea, and air borders, emphasising the humanitarian crisis this has caused.
Dehumanisation: Chris talks about the ‘Red Lines’ policy and how it reflects the dehumanisation of Palestinians.
Role of the International Community: Critical reflection on the international community's role in perpetuating the conflict, particularly the U.S.'s unwavering support for Israel.
Need for a Mandela Figure: Chris suggested that the conflict needs a leader with a vision of peace and the courage to see it through.
Israeli Cabinet's Rhetoric: He points out the dehumanising language used by some Israeli cabinet ministers, such as ‘Gaza needs to be put on a diet’

Resources:

Professor Rashid Khalidi - Understanding the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict: An Exploration of Root Causes and Geopolitical Dynamics

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101. Professor Rashid Khalidi - Understanding the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict: An Exploration of Root Causes and Geopolitical Dynamics Feb 27, 2025

Show notes

In today's episode, I am honoured to host Professor Rashid Khalidi, a distinguished scholar and the Edward Said Professor of Modern Arab Studies at Columbia University. Known for his profound insights into Middle Eastern politics, Professor Khalidi is also the author of the ground-breaking book ‘100 Years' War on Palestine: A History of Settler Colonialism and Resistance, 1917–2017’. He joined me to discuss the intricate dynamics of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, the geopolitics of the Middle East, and the role of international actors in shaping the region. Given the ongoing escalation of violence in Israel and across the Occupied Territories, the importance of nuance cannot be understated.

Some of the topics we covered include:

Historical Roots of Zionism: Understand the pivotal roles played by Britain and the United States in the creation of Israel and support of Zionism.
Israeli Settlement Expansion: Explore the controversial policies surrounding Israeli settlement expansion and their impact on the region.
Life Under Occupation: Gain insights into the daily struggles faced by Palestinians living under Israeli occupation.
Western Hypocrisy in International Politics: Examine the dichotomy between interests and values, and how Western nations often display hypocrisy in their international political stances.
Religious Influence in Israeli Politics: Delve into the role of religious ideologies in shaping Israeli political policies.
De Facto Annexation of Palestinian Territories: Learn about the unofficial yet impactful annexation of Palestinian lands by Israel.
Challenges in Palestinian Diplomacy: Understand the hurdles faced by Palestinian leadership in their diplomatic efforts.
Global Geopolitics and the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict: Explore how the conflict fits into broader geopolitical trends and alliances.
The 'Shared Values' Argument Between the U.S. and Israel: Examine the evolving narrative of 'shared values' and its implications for U.S.-Israel relations.
Potential for Change in Israeli-Palestinian Relations: Discuss the possibilities for meaningful change in the conflict, particularly in the context of shifting global public opinion.

Don't miss this enlightening episode that offers a comprehensive and nuanced understanding of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, Middle Eastern geopolitics, and the role of international actors.

Resources:

Professor Rashid Khalidi’s book: The Hundred Years' War on Palestine: A History of Settler Colonialism and Resistance, 1917-2017

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100. Carl Miller - The AI Revolution: Exploring its Ethical, Social, and Political Ramifications Feb 27, 2025

Show notes

Today, I welcome back Carl Miller, a leading expert in the ethics of artificial intelligence and the Research Director at Demos, a UK-based think tank. After his insightful discussion on information warfare, cyber-attacks, and weaponisation of social media in Episode 51, Carl returns to delve deeper into the ethical, social, and political ramifications of AI. From exploring the centralisation of power in AI development to discussing real-world case studies on deepfake technology and ethical risks, this episode offers a comprehensive look at the complex landscape of AI governance and ethics. Carl also shares inspiring stories of AI's potential for social good, making this a must-listen for anyone interested in the future of AI and its impact on society.

As you’ll hear, Carl also shared details about his latest project Recursive Public, an experiment in identifying areas of consensus and disagreement among the international AI community, policymakers, and the public on key questions of governance. Please consider supporting this important and worthwhile AI governance project. You can register here.

Some of the other topics we covered are:

A Think Tanker's Foray into AI Ethics
- Carl’s background in public policy and his role at Demos, a leading UK think tank with a focus on AI ethics and governance.

Understanding Power Dynamics in the AI Era
- Carl defines the concept of power in the digital age and its implications for AI governance.
- Categorising different forms of power, including economic and coercive power, and how they relate to AI development.

Who Holds the Reins of AI? The Centralisation of Power
- An in-depth look into the entities that hold the levers of power in AI, from tech giants to governmental bodies.

Centralisation of AI Technologies
- Discussion on the centralisation of AI technologies like GPT and its societal implications.

Fostering a Collaborative Community in AI
- Carl emphasises the need for a less hostile, more collaborative approach to AI ethics and governance.

Ethical Concerns: AI's Potential for Social Harm
- Exploration of the ethical risks associated with AI, particularly in polarised societies and areas lacking human rights frameworks.

The Agency of AI: A Risk Assessment
- Discussion on the conditions under which AI could become a dangerous entity, including the potential for autonomous action.

Deepfakes and Misinformation: A Case Study
- A real-world example of how deepfake technology was utilised to create misleading news broadcasts in Venezuela.

Positive AI Use Cases: Empowering the Marginalised
- Inspiring stories from India where AI is bridging the digital divide and improving access to government services.