The Symbolic World

Latest Episodes:

413 - Heidi White - The Divided Soul: Duty and Desire in Literature and Life Sep 25, 2025

Show notes

In this conversation, I sit down with author and educator Heidi White to discuss her new book, The Divided Soul. We explore the story of the prodigal son, the tension between duty and desire, and how these themes echo through literature, culture, and our own lives. Heidi shares insights from the Bible, classical works, and pop culture, showing that many stories reflect this deep human struggle.
YouTube version: https://youtu.be/1LjDeZpSviw
Buy Heidi’s book: https://www.goldberrypress.com/products/the-divided-soul-duty-and-desire-in-literature-and-life
Heidi’s Substack and podcast: https://closereads.substack.com/
Instagram: @heidiwhitereads
📖 Let's take our stories back. Check out our latest book in the Tales for Now and Ever series, Rapunzel and the Evil Witch: https://rapunzelbook.com/
Fr. Stephen De Young's Jubilees and the Nephilim course is now finished and available for purchase: https://www.thesymbolicworld.com/courses/jubilees-and-the-nephilim
Timestamps
00:00 - Coming up
01:40 - Intro music
02:04 - Introduction
02:48 - The prodigal son
05:32 - Duty and desire
07:17 - Paradise as unity
13:02 - Why the duality?
17:36 - Sins of the right hand and the left hand
20:49 - Ordering desire
27:30 - Examples
33:28 - Repentance and sacrifice
38:04 - Christ's version of this pattern
44:24 - Heidi's vision
💻 Website and blog: http://www.thesymbolicworld.com
🔗 Linktree: https://linktr.ee/jonathanpageau
🔒 BECOME A PATRON: https://thesymbolicworld.com/subscribe
Our website designers: https://www.resonancehq.io/
My intro was arranged and recorded by Matthew Wilkinson: https://matthewwilkinson.net/

412 - The Age of Self-Esteem Sep 22, 2025

Show notes

This is August's patron video that I decided to make public. In it I explore the modern idea of self-esteem—where it came from, how it shapes our culture, and why it so often leads us into confusion and disorder. I contrast this with the Christian vision of humility, which offers a path to true freedom and joy.
YouTube version: https://youtu.be/e__8eVCgjCE
Please consider becoming a patron to get exclusive access to videos like this: https://thesymbolicworld.com/subscribe
📖 Let's take our stories back. Check out our latest book in the Tales for Now and Ever series, Rapunzel and the Evil Witch: https://rapunzelbook.com/
Join Fr. Stephen De Young in his Jubilees and the Nephilim course, now streaming live on The Symbolic World: https://www.thesymbolicworld.com/courses/jubilees-and-the-nephilim
Our website designers: https://www.resonancehq.io/
My intro was arranged and recorded by Matthew Wilkinson: https://matthewwilkinson.net/

411 - Dr. Michael Levin & Dr. John Vervaeke - Brave New Biology: Intelligence Trumps DNA Sep 20, 2025

Show notes

Dr. Michael Levin is a professor in the Department of Biology at Tufts University and an associate faculty member at the Wyss Institute at Harvard. He directs the Allen Discovery Center at Tufts, where his team integrates biophysics, computational modeling, and behavioral science to study how cellular collectives make decisions during embryogenesis, regeneration, and cancer.
Levin’s research centers on diverse forms of intelligence and unconventional embodied minds, bridging conceptual theory, experimental biology, and translational work aimed at regenerative medicine. His lab also pioneers efforts in artificial intelligence and the bioengineering of novel living machines.
YouTube version: https://youtu.be/iwOJ9PWcPmo
Read more about Dr. Michael Levin’s work: https://drmichaellevin.org/
X: https://x.com/drmichaellevin
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@drmichaellevin
John Vervaeke's YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@johnvervaeke
📖 Let's take our stories back. Check out our latest book in the Tales for Now and Ever series, Rapunzel and the Evil Witch: https://rapunzelbook.com/
Join Fr. Stephen De Young in his Jubilees and the Nephilim course, now streaming live on The Symbolic World: https://www.thesymbolicworld.com/courses/jubilees-and-the-nephilim
Timestamps:
00:00 - Coming up
01:14 - Intro music
01:40 - Introduction
02:23 - What Michael does
06:19 - Example experiments
07:51 - Memories outside the brain
12:46 - Terminology: memory
13:59 - Communicate to biological cells
15:54 - Limitations?
17:39 - Platonic patterns
34:06 - Incarnation and constraints
39:26 - Causes
49:28 - New beings in new spaces
52:25 - What the Enlightenment dismissed
55:32 - Molecular medicine
57:36 - Subtle bodies
01:00:45 - Ethics
01:03:37 - Medical and meaning applications
01:11:42 - Frightening
01:14:31 - Against the status quo
01:19:03 - Should we dabble in this technology?
💻 Website and blog: http://www.thesymbolicworld.com
🔗 Linktree: https://linktr.ee/jonathanpageau
🔒 BECOME A PATRON: https://thesymbolicworld.com/subscribe
Our website designers: https://www.resonancehq.io/
My intro was arranged and recorded by Matthew Wilkinson: https://matthewwilkinson.net/

410 - Fractals: The World Is Full of Meaning (Midwestuary talk) Sep 12, 2025

Show notes

I’ve spoken about fractals on my channel for many years. In this talk, I explore the topic directly—showing how fractals are a fundamental structure of reality. Understanding these patterns is essential if we want to see the world symbolically and build true fellowship rooted in spirit rather than mere rules.
YouTube version: https://youtu.be/S6xHkyhoN20
This talk took place at the 2025 Midwestuary conference.
Estuary Hub Link: https://www.estuaryhub.com/
https://www.southeastuary.com/
📖 Let's take our stories back. Check out our latest book in the Tales for Now and Ever series, Rapunzel and the Evil Witch: https://rapunzelbook.com/
🔗Join Fr. Stephen De Young in his Jubilees and the Nephilim course, now streaming live on The Symbolic World: https://www.thesymbolicworld.com/courses/jubilees-and-the-nephilim
💻 Website and blog: http://www.thesymbolicworld.com
🔗 Linktree: https://linktr.ee/jonathanpageau
🔒 BECOME A PATRON: https://thesymbolicworld.com/subscribe
Timestamps:
00:00 - Coming up
00:28 - Intro music
00:51 - Introducing Jonathan
02:08 - Start of talk
04:59 - Heaven and earth
07:44 - Produce variation
13:44 - Revelation
19:18 - Resistance to embodiment
22:05 - Heaven provides influence
25:21 - A nation: embodiment
35:56 - Too close to multiplicity
38:27 - A luminous hierarchy
41:22 - What can make a hierarchy fragile
Our website designers: https://www.resonancehq.io/
My intro was arranged and recorded by Matthew Wilkinson: https://matthewwilkinson.net/

409 - The Strange Symbolism of K-Pop Demon Hunters: Shame, Attention, LGBT, Jung Sep 05, 2025

Show notes

I finally watched K-Pop Demon Hunters after so many of you kept asking about it. In this episode, I explore the strange mix of symbolism: demons, idols, and the way the film deals with shame, music, and attention. There are fascinating elements in the story, but also some deep problems from a symbolic and Christian perspective. Let’s dive in together.
WARNING: This episode contains spoilers.
YouTube version: https://youtu.be/Rh89J2eAf7o
📖 Let's take our stories back. Check out the latest book in the Tales for Now and Ever series, Rapunzel and the Evil Witch: https://rapunzelbook.com/
Latest course: Join Fr. Stephen De Young in his Jubilees and the Nephilim course, now streaming live on The Symbolic World: https://www.thesymbolicworld.com/courses/jubilees-and-the-nephilim
💻 Website and blog: http://www.thesymbolicworld.com
🔗 Linktree: https://linktr.ee/jonathanpageau
🔒 BECOME A PATRON: https://thesymbolicworld.com/subscribe
Do you want to know more about symbolism and learn how to do your own analysis? Join the Symbolism Masterclass, the culmination of my life’s work on this topic. It’s both for beginners and long-time followers. Over 6 classes and more than 18 hours of content, that you can follow at your own pace, you’ll uncover the hidden structures of reality—from sacred time to the dance of opposites—and learn to live with intention in an age of distraction, confusion, and the crisis of meaning. Register here: https://www.thesymbolicworld.com/courses/symbolism-masterclass
Our website designers: https://www.resonancehq.io/
My intro was arranged and recorded by Matthew Wilkinson: https://matthewwilkinson.net/

408 - Andrew Gould & Michael Diamant - Architecture: The Most Important Art Aug 30, 2025

Show notes

In this conversation I’m joined by Andrew Gould and Michael Diamant to explore the importance of traditional architecture and city planning. We discuss why so much of our built environment feels alienating, how modernism abandoned human proportion and beauty, and why recovering classical forms matters for culture, community, and even our spiritual lives.
Michael shares the story of the Architecture Uprising movement across Europe, and Andrew explains how he approaches designing buildings that are rooted in tradition yet alive for today. Together we reflect on how beauty is not just a luxury—it’s essential for human flourishing.
Youtube version: https://youtu.be/uS_3FB7foVc?si=5zMFNf8ALUUAov9d
Architects, go to https://newtrad.org/
Follow Michael on X / Twitter: https://x.com/michael_diamant
Andrew Gould's website: https://newworldbyzantine.com/
Follow Andrew on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/andrew.gould.1401
Buy Rapunzel and the Evil Witch: https://rapunzelbook.com/
Timestamps:
00:00 - Coming up
00:48 - Intro music
01:13 - Introduction
06:14 - What's great about ugly architecture?
09:27 - Politics
10:51 - The Brutalist
13:03 - City planning
15:28 - Density
20:28 - What is driving the madness?
27:03 - The options for architects
30:17 - What architecture is today
34:26 - Classical beauty
40:10 - Bad classical architecture
45:52 - Defending your culture
51:05 - Andrew Gould's work
01:01:02 - Architectural fashion
01:04:58 - The film industry
💻 Website and blog: http://www.thesymbolicworld.com
🔗 Linktree: https://linktr.ee/jonathanpageau
🔒 BECOME A PATRON: https://thesymbolicworld.com/subscribe
Our website designers: https://www.resonancehq.io/
My intro was arranged and recorded by Matthew Wilkinson: https://matthewwilkinson.net/

407 - Heather Pollington - Rapunzel and the Evil Witch Aug 29, 2025

Show notes

📖 RAPUNZEL AND THE EVIL WITCH IS NOW AVAILABLE FOR SALE: https://rapunzelbook.com/
Heather Pollington and I are thrilled to share our brand-new storybook with you, 'Rapunzel and the Evil Witch'! Following 'Snow White and the Widow Queen' and 'Jack and the Fallen Giants', this third fairy tale feels like the culmination of our work so far. With this book you’ll begin to notice the different threads connecting across the series. Heather has created stunning illustrations that weave medieval and Byzantine influences into a style perfectly suited to the fairy tale world.
In this episode, we walk through the process behind the book, the symbolism of Rapunzel’s story, and what's unique about our version of the story. We show many of the book's illustrations. I can't wait to hear what you think!
YouTube version: https://youtu.be/aEWgHif0NS8
Timestamps:
00:00 - Announcement and opening
01:36 - Intro music
02:02 - Introduction
03:41 - Heather's journey to Rapunzel
06:40 - Critiques of fairy tales
07:46 - Tangled
10:12 - Exploring Rapunzel imagery
10:24 - Early sketches
12:14 - Iconography and Palekh fairy tale tradition
15:54 - Frontispiece
17:51 - Green flowers
20:12 - The witch's garden
22:59 - The dark exchange
25:48 - The circle of protection
28:55 - A sense of freedom
30:43 - The moon tower
35:04 - The haunting melody
37:40 - Love in the tower
41:47 - The dream
43:27 - Flax into gold
46:02 - Rain from heaven
53:43 - The wooden throne
56:28 - Order
💻 Website and blog: http://www.thesymbolicworld.com
🔗 Linktree: https://linktr.ee/jonathanpageau
🔒 BECOME A PATRON: https://thesymbolicworld.com/subscribe
NEW COURSE: Jubilees and the Nephilim, by Fr. Stephen De Young
- Register now: https://www.thesymbolicworld.com/courses/jubilees-and-the-nephilim
- Course Length: 6 Weeks, 12 Hours
- Dates: Live classes are on Tuesday at 7 - 9 pm Central Time, starting August 19th through September 23rd, 2025
- Participants will be given access to lesson recordings.
- The course is hosted on the Symbolic World Circle Community platform. Sign up as a free member before making your purchase.
- Price: 180 USD, Involved patrons qualify for 10% discount.
Step into the strange and revelatory world of the Book of Jubilees, an ancient retelling of Genesis that shaped ancient Jewish thought and still echoes through Christian tradition. In this course, Fr. Stephen De Young guides students through the book’s expansion of biblical history, unveiling the significance of the fall of the angels, the rise of the Nephilim, and the heavenly origins of the feasts of the Old and New Testaments. Along the way, he'll explore how Jubilees reinterprets creation, demonology, and the prophetic structure of time, and why these themes mattered not only to Second Temple Judaism, but to later Christian understandings of the unseen world.
Our website designers: https://www.resonancehq.io/
My intro was arranged and recorded by Matthew Wilkinson: https://matthewwilkinson.net/

406 - Symbolism Explained: The Fundamental WWII Duality That Still Haunts Us Today Aug 19, 2025

Show notes

In this episode, I explore the symbolism of World War II through the imagery of the Axis and the Allies. Beyond politics, these symbols reveal a deeper story about unity and multiplicity—the tension between the “one” and the “many.” I look at how the propaganda and narratives of that time shaped the post-war consensus we still live in today, and why those stories are now reaching their limits. My hope is to help you see how these patterns influence our culture and why finding balance is so important.
YouTube version: https://youtu.be/vLpEDlgEleg
Visit https://www.rapunzelbook.com to pre-order our new fairy tale story, Rapunzel and the Evil Witch.
NEW COURSE: Jubilees and the Nephilim, by Fr. Stephen De Young
- Register now: https://www.thesymbolicworld.com/courses/jubilees-and-the-nephilim
- Course Length: 6 Weeks, 12 Hours
- Dates: Live classes are on Tuesday at 7 - 9 pm Central Time, starting August 19th through September 23rd, 2025
- Participants will be given access to lesson recordings.
- The course is hosted on the Symbolic World Circle Community platform. Sign up as a free member before making your purchase.
- Price: 180 USD, Involved patrons qualify for 10% discount.
Step into the strange and revelatory world of the Book of Jubilees, an ancient retelling of Genesis that shaped ancient Jewish thought and still echoes through Christian tradition. In this course, Fr. Stephen De Young guides students through the book’s expansion of biblical history, unveiling the significance of the fall of the angels, the rise of the Nephilim, and the heavenly origins of the feasts of the Old and New Testaments. Along the way, he'll explore how Jubilees reinterprets creation, demonology, and the prophetic structure of time, and why these themes mattered not only to Second Temple Judaism, but to later Christian understandings of the unseen world.
💻 Website and blog: http://www.thesymbolicworld.com
🔗 Linktree: https://linktr.ee/jonathanpageau
🔒 BECOME A PATRON: https://thesymbolicworld.com/subscribe
Our website designers: https://www.resonancehq.io/
My intro was arranged and recorded by Matthew Wilkinson: https://matthewwilkinson.net/

405 - Fr. Josiah Trenham - Marriage: The Bedrock of Civilization Aug 05, 2025

Show notes

In this episode, Father Josiah Trenham returns to the podcast for us to talk about the profound meaning and cosmic significance of marriage. We explore why marriage is a crucial civilizational cornerstone rooted in divine order, not only from a Christian perspective, but universally in all flourishing societies. We discuss how it compares to and co-exists with monasticism and the meaning of marriage and the wedding ceremony not just as a gate to self-fulfillment and a joyful experience, but also as self-sacrifice. We also discuss how rediscovering the beauty of marriage can help restore sanity in our fragmented secular world.
This conversation is also a preview of the upcoming Marriage Conference in Riverside, CA (Oct. 10–12), where I’ll be speaking alongside Father Josiah, Archbishop Cordileone, Dr. Brad Wilcox, and others. Learn more at https://www.themarriageconference.com/
Subscribe to Fr. Josiah's YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@PatristicNectarFilms
—
NEW COURSE: Jubilees and the Nephilim, by Fr. Stephen De Young
- Catch the early bird special of 15% off with code: EARLYJUBILEES, valid until 11:59 pm EST (midnight) of August 8th.
- Register now: https://www.thesymbolicworld.com/courses/jubilees-and-the-nephilim
- Course Length: 6 Weeks, 12 Hours
- Dates: Live classes are on Tuesday at 7 - 9 pm Central Time, starting August 19th through September 23rd, 2025
- Participants will be given access to lesson recordings.
- The course is hosted on the Symbolic World Circle Community platform. Sign up as a free member before making your purchase.
- Price: 180 USD
Step into the strange and revelatory world of the Book of Jubilees, an ancient retelling of Genesis that shaped ancient Jewish thought and still echoes through Christian tradition. In this course, Fr. Stephen De Young guides students through the book’s expansion of biblical history, unveiling the significance of the fall of the angels, the rise of the Nephilim, and the heavenly origins of the feasts of the Old and New Testaments. Along the way, he'll explore how Jubilees reinterprets creation, demonology, and the prophetic structure of time, and why these themes mattered not only to Second Temple Judaism, but to later Christian understandings of the unseen world.
—
Timestamps:
00:00 - Coming up
01:00 - Intro music
01:24 - Introduction
04:01 - Marriage, monasticism, and St. John the Baptist
09:16 - The symbiosis between monasticism and marriage
12:32 - Why marriage fails
16:14 - The fruits of abandoning marriage
21:37 - Contract
24:15 - Acknowledge the ideal
27:53 - The nuclear and extended family
29:40 - The crowns
34:23 - A new independent union
38:03 - Aspects of marriage
43:19 - Refined love
45:42 - Pagan monogamy
50:39 - Marrying young
55:18 - 50s Housewife vs boss babe
57:01 - Having children
01:00:39 - Hopes

404 - Fr. Stephen De Young - How to Read Extra-Biblical Texts Like Jubilees (and Why It Matters) Jul 31, 2025

Show notes

Fr. Stephen De Young returns to the channel to explore how we should approach extra-Biblical literature—looking especially at the Book of Jubilees in anticipation of his upcoming Symbolic World course: Jubilees and the Nephilim. We discuss a different, more ancient way of doing theology—through story, ritual, poetry, and image rather than flat modern academic argument. If you’ve ever wondered how texts like Jubilees, Enoch, or the Lives of Adam and Eve connect to Christian theology, this conversation is for you.
YouTube version: https://youtu.be/poAELqTQTo0
NEW COURSE: Jubilees and the Nephilim, by Fr. Stephen De Young
- Catch the early bird special of 15% off with code: EARLYJUBILEES, valid until 11:59 pm EST (midnight) of August 8th.
- Price: 180 USD (Discounted to 158 USD)
- Register now: https://www.thesymbolicworld.com/courses/jubilees-and-the-nephilim
- Course Length: 6 Weeks, 12 Hours
- Dates: Live classes are on Tuesday at 7 - 9 pm Central Time, starting August 19th through September 23rd, 2025
- Participants will be given access to lesson recordings.
- The course is hosted on the Symbolic World Circle Community platform. Sign up as a free member before making your purchase.
Step into the strange and revelatory world of the Book of Jubilees, an ancient retelling of Genesis that shaped ancient Jewish thought and still echoes through Christian tradition. In this course, Fr. Stephen De Young guides students through the book’s expansion of biblical history, unveiling the significance of the fall of the angels, the rise of the Nephilim, and the heavenly origins of the feasts of the Old and New Testaments. Along the way, he'll explore how Jubilees reinterprets creation, demonology, and the prophetic structure of time, and why these themes mattered not only to Second Temple Judaism, but to later Christian understandings of the unseen world.
Timestamps
00:00 - Coming up
00:55 - Intro music
01:20 - Introduction
02:11 - Jubilees
05:08 - A different way of doing theology
15:23 - Why do we have peripheral stories?
22:34 - The twelfth apostle
24:16 - Blood libel
27:09 - Adam's skull
31:19 - Sacred geography
34:09 - The sacramental reality
39:01 - The modern trade
41:52 - UFOs, psychedelics, and materialism
44:43 - Reading extra-biblical texts and Jubilees
47:53 - What can extra-biblical traditions offer us?
💻 Website and blog: http://www.thesymbolicworld.com
🔗 Linktree: https://linktr.ee/jonathanpageau
🔒 BECOME A PATRON: https://thesymbolicworld.com/subscribe
Our website designers: https://www.resonancehq.io/
My intro was arranged and recorded by Matthew Wilkinson: https://matthewwilkinson.net/

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