The Pivot

Latest Episodes:

Robert & Lori Crosby: Being Present in Others’ Pain Jan 13, 2026

Show notes

This week on The Pivot, we had a heartfelt conversation with Robert and Lori Crosby as they shared the vital work of their Reach Hurting Kids Institute. They opened up about what it truly means to apply a trauma-informed lens to ministry, explaining how shifting our perspective is key. Instead of seeing trauma-related behaviors as something to be taken personally, they teach us to see them as opportunities—chances to uncover deeper feelings and support a child’s path toward healing. Robert, with his researcher’s insight, and Lori, with her therapist’s heart, emphasize the power of a relational approach over a rigid, behavior-focused one. They talked about the beauty of flexible planning—the need to “pivot” to meet a specific child’s needs—and, most importantly, the profound importance of ensuring every single child genuinely knows and feels their inherent worth.

Thought-Provoking Quotes:

“It’s always amazing when you meet people who work in areas that are so heavy, and yet carry themselves so lightly. The area of children’s trauma, that’s as heavy as it gets, and yet [Robert and Lori] carry this joy with them.” - Andrew Osenga

“I had the chance to start doing research in the realm of children’s ministry, to research trauma as it intersects with ministry. And pretty quickly I realized this is something I’m really passionate about, and this is a place where the church can have a huge, huge impact.” - Robert Crosby

“Some of the clients I was working with were getting kicked out of churches because of trauma-related behaviors. And children kind of interpret that as they’re not good enough to be in the presence of God, which broke my heart.” - Lori Crosby

“A trauma-informed ministry leader recognizes the signs and symptoms of trauma. So if a child is hiding under a desk or they’re dysregulated and screaming, the leader doesn’t personalize the child’s emotional dysregulation, but walks alongside them, shows up, sits with them until the child is regulated, and then can help them heal from whatever they’re going through—help them feel safe, feel connected, feel valued.” - Lori Crosby

“What is the underlying feeling? How can I minister to that? How can I help them be okay so they can participate and engage and feel part of a community and feel loved, so that the church can be part of that child’s healing process?” - Robert Crosby

“You can share God’s love more powerfully by sitting down next to a hurting child and just having a conversation, just checking in with them while you’re building with Legos, maybe sharing a meal. Just showing them Jesus through genuine connection, really being interested in their lives and being curious and open and being present. That speaks so deeply to all of us, I think.” - Lori Crosby

“There’s often a disconnect between what we have planned and what a child actually needs. We have to have the freedom to say, ‘Okay, I’m prepared, but we’ve got to pivot and adapt so we can minister to them.’” - Robert Crosby

“There’s a correlation between the way a child understands and experiences the church and the way they understand and experience God. We’re a proxy for God in that way.” - Robert Crosby

“Relationships are the foundation of this entire approach. It’s getting to know the kids and building rapport and letting them know they’re loved and accepted and unconditionally cared for. This is what’s transformative.” - Robert Crosby

“I think sometimes we over spiritualize things. If you have someone struggling with anxiety or depression, and we [share] scripture verses, there’s so much baggage that a child’s bringing in. So if a child has experiences or is still currently under threat, and we’re trying to pray it away or theologically correct their behaviors which are protecting them from harm, that’s not helpful at all.” - Robert Crosby

“‘God’s not gonna give you more than you can handle’ is one of the most common misquoted scriptures that just does unfathomable harm to somebody who’s in the midst of trauma.” - Lori Crosby

“Maybe the pivot, the shift, is that miracles can happen instantly, but sometimes the miracle is the very long, painful journey we walk.” - Lori Crosby

“Just being present in the pain is what is the most helpful, because you don’t get to do or say anything that takes away somebody’s pain. We desperately want to, but the best thing to do is just sit in silence and be a loving presence who listens.” - Lori Crosby

Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned:

Trauma-Informed Children’s Ministry by Robert and Lori Crosby

Reach Hurting Kids Institute

Los Angeles County Office of Education

Promise Keepers

Tortured for Christ by Richard Wurmbrand

B.F. Skinner

Church of the Nazarene

Trail Life USA

Dollywood

*Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel!

*All episode music is by Andrew Osenga.

Guest’s Links:

Reach Hurting Kids website

Robert and Lori’s Facebook

Robert and Lori’s Instagram

Connect with Andrew:

How to Remember by Andrew Osenga

Hold the Light by Andrew Osenga

*The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.

Phil Vischer: Letting Go of Your Dream, and Asking “What’s Next?” Jan 06, 2026

Show notes

Creator of the beloved series VeggieTales Phil Vischer, whose influence impacted generations of children, joins The Pivot to talk about what happens when you build something incredible, only to watch it fall apart. Phil opens up about what to do when you discover that you’re not as important as you think you are, how to let God save you from your own ambition, and how to cope with devastating failure in order to turn around and build the life you were meant for—free from what others might think.

Thought-Provoking Quotes:

“All I wanted to do was make films and I wanted to be one of the good guys. And then I thought, Well, maybe I’m more than just a good guy who makes films. Maybe I’m like the next Walt Disney.” - Phil Vischer

“I don’t like leading people. Which is a bad thing to discover after you’ve hired a whole bunch of people. So my management style tended to be, find the most competent person who liked to be in charge and make them in charge of all the people.” - Phil Vischer

“You make a huge mistake when you decide that God needs you. Bad things happen.” - Phil Vischer

“[I felt like] I wasn’t doing big things for God if I was curtailing my ambition, not expanding it. I had such a view of evangelical workaholism.” - Phil Vischer

“The model I grew up with was if you’re enjoying life, you’re not trying hard enough. If you’re happy, you’re not doing it right. And finally, God got tired of watching me be that way.” - Phil Vischer

“I wrote 80% of every line that came out of a vegetable’s mouth for ten years. So you become somewhat personally attached to the characters you’ve created and are bringing to life with your writing. And then, someone says ‘We don’t need you to write them anymore.’” - Phil Vischer

“I realized that God was saving me from my ambition, that I was pushing a rock up a hill that He never asked me to push.” - Phil Vischer

“What’s your life’s work going to look like? Who’s the model for your life’s work? We pick almost every model in the world except Jesus.” - Phil Vischer

“We always talk about our successes in the church. We never talk about our failures.” - Phil Vischer

“We’re trying to help a generation stay connected to their faith. To throw out the bathwater, but hang on to baby Jesus.” - Phil Vischer

“I think a lot of people that have gone through what Phil has gone through could be bitter and angry, and I’m sure he had his moments. But I don’t get that from him now. I get a lot of wisdom and compassion and definitely curiosity and a sense of ‘What’s next?’” - Andrew Osenga

Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned:

VeggieTales

The Holy Post

Walt Disney

Experiencing God by Henry Blackaby

Biola University

Billy Graham

Disneyland

Willow Creek Community Church

Sixpence None the Richer

Wheaton College Radio

The Dead Sea Squirrels

The Toy That Saved Christmas

Blender

The Apple Dumpling Gang

Time Bandits

Coen Brothers

Wes Anderson

O Brother, Where Art Thou?

The Hudsucker Proxy

Slumdog Millionaire

*Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel!

*All episode music is by Andrew Osenga.

Guest’s Links:

Phil Vischer’s website

Phil Vischer’s Facebook

Phil Vischer’s Instagram

Phil Vischer’s X

Phil Vischer’s YouTube

Connect with Andrew:

How to Remember by Andrew Osenga

Hold the Light by Andrew Osenga

*The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.

[ENCORE EPISODE] Ashley Cleveland: Get to Know My Dear Friend Dec 30, 2025

Show notes

This episode with Ashley Cleveland came out in January 2018—the first time Andrew ever met Ashley. This interview had such a profound impact on Andrew that he’s referenced it again and again throughout the years, and we wanted to re-share it with you as we look to a New Year.

Thought-Provoking Quotes:

“I quickly became an alcoholic and a drug addict, but I also became a musician. I started getting a positive response, whereas everything prior had been pretty negative. So I look upon it as this marker that God gave me to keep me on the planet.” - Ashley Cleveland

“I knew less than anything about the industry. But a divide had been crossed, and suddenly I’m a songwriter. I dropped out of school after a couple of years and I went back to California and that’s really where I learned to be an artist. I cut my teeth in clubs.” - Ashley Cleveland

“I wound up pregnant, very ill with my addiction, so I turned to the church. And I have to say the church responded deeply and wonderfully.” - Ashley Cleveland

“I couldn’t even cope with myself, let alone a child. And yet once I heard that heartbeat, I knew it was gonna be beyond me to give her up. Suddenly, there was someone else, and that was really the beginning of faith for me.” - Ashley Cleveland

“I left that hospital knowing that there was a God and He loved me, though I had no earthly idea why.” - Ashley Cleveland

“You take the art wherever you go. I’m so glad I had a career with a small C because what that meant for me in practical terms was I was home.” - Ashley Cleveland

“For me, the best way to live is with my hands wide open and say, ‘Lord, you are the most surprising thing in my life.’” - Ashley Cleveland

“I’m so thankful to be alive. Everything else is gravy.” - Ashley Cleveland

Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned:

Anchor Hymns

Sally Lloyd-Jones

Neil Young

University of Tennessee

Pam Tillis

John Hiatt

NACA (National Association of Campus Activities)

Michael W. Smith

Steven Curtis Chapman

Rich Mullins

Twenty Feet From Stardom

C.S. Lewis

*Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel!

*All episode music is by Andrew Osenga.

Guest’s Links:

Ashley Cleveland’s Instagram

Ashley Cleveland’s Facebook

Connect with Andrew:

How to Remember by Andrew Osenga

Hold the Light by Andrew Osenga

*The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.

A Chance to Rethink: 2025 Recap with Andrew Osenga Dec 23, 2025

Show notes

Join Andrew for a really special end-of-the-year episode as he opens up about the creative work he put out in 2025. He shares some honest reflections about what he learned this year, what didn’t quite work out, and what he’s hoping to carry with him as we step into the new year. We’re talking about how to truly learn from those inevitable failures, seeing them as a chance to redesign the life we want, and the difficult but necessary process of letting things go. And, perhaps most importantly, he’s sharing why carving out space for both rest and community is so critical, especially when they’re the first things that tend to get sacrificed when life gets hectic. Here’s to another year of growing, changing, and simply being humans who make things.

Thought-Provoking Quotes:

“The truth is I made a lot of things for a long time that had no way to come out, and then they just sort of stacked up, and I was finally like, I’ve got to get this stuff out. I’ve got to just get these piles off the desk so I can do something else. And now I get the chance to start afresh.” - Andrew Osenga

“We learn from our failures.” - Andrew Osenga

“I love making music, but I also love having conversations and talking about ideas and just getting to talk to some of the most fascinating, incredible people.” - Andrew Osenga

“When I tell you the people we have lined up to talk to next year, I literally cannot believe it. Some of my absolute heroes, authors and artists, people that I could not believe said yes. I am so excited and nervous. It’s going to be so fun.” - Andrew Osenga

“Alison, my wife, is dealing with cancer, and that’s a long, long, long journey. It’s still really hard. She’s doing a little bit better than a year ago, and we’re really grateful for that. I thank you so much for your prayers.” - Andrew Osenga

“I need to find some things I can let go of. I hear other people’s stories, and what you find over and over and over is that community is so important and rest is so important. And when we get busy and spin too many plates, the things that immediately disappear are community and rest.” - Andrew Osenga

“We isolate and we ignore the Sabbath and we work, work, work by ourselves. That’s what I do. And all of the sudden, I start to think that I’m the reason everything is working or not working, I can do it all by myself, everything hinges on me, and it doesn’t. I start trusting in myself and not God. I’m leaning on myself and not those around me.” - Andrew Osenga

“This is a good time of year where you just have to pause a little bit and you get a chance to rethink, look at your schedule, look at your priorities, look at the things you’re planning on doing, and say, ‘What can I stop? How can I reschedule my time?’” - Andrew Osenga

Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned:

Amen. 30 Days of Prayers from the Headwaters by Andrew Osenga

*Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel!

*All episode music is by Andrew Osenga.

Connect with Andrew:

How to Remember by Andrew Osenga

Hold the Light by Andrew Osenga

*The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.

The People Who Shape Us: Jasmine Mullen Dec 16, 2025

Show notes

Lead singer of The New Respects and author Jasmine Mullen joins The Pivot for a walk down memory lane, revisiting a beautiful childhood, the band members who turned into family, and a unique form of childhood rebellion: playwriting (and yes, they talk about her adorable play about how the star of Bethlehem was chosen). Jasmine and Andrew reminisce about their younger selves, when Andrew was first working at a record company and met Jasmine, when neither of them knew what they were doing. Jasmine opens up about the strong bonds that have shaped her life and career, and made her into who she is today.

Thought-Provoking Quotes:

“All my childhood years were in this house. It’s my favorite place in the world. It’s so beautiful, it’s in the middle of nowhere. Last night when I was driving here there was a cow in the middle of the road. It’s kind of chaotic, but it’s really sweet.” - Jasmine Mullen

“Whenever I think of my mom, like in the fullness of herself, I think about her riding. There’s a huge hill in the backyard. She would ride down that hill on her horse bareback, and she was so cool.” - Jasmine Mullen

“Growing up, there’s a house on the hill to the right, and my mom’s mom and her dad lived in that house. Then my dad’s parents lived right across the street. And it was just so awesome, they were the best ever. God set me up so well with grandparents who are like storybook grandparents. I look back and I’m just like, ‘Lord, what a gift, what a blessing to have that kind of support that close.’” - Jasmine Mullen

“Darius Fitzgerald, Zandy Mowry, and I are family friends. We were raised together, kind of like family.” - Jasmine Mullen

“The word ‘friend’ was heavier to me than the word ‘family’ because it was something that you choose, and family just happens to you. Friendship is something that you can build on.” - Jasmine Mullen

“I was always super rebellious about not wanting to be in music because both of my parents are in music. So my form of rebellion was, ‘I’m going to write plays.’” - Jasmine Mullen

Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned:

The New Respects band

Ben Washington Is the Newbie on the Block by Jasmine Mullen

Ben Washington Is the Odd Man Out by Jasmine Mullen

Anchor Hymns

Brooke Fraser

Carly Bannister

“God of This City” by Chris Tomlin

Tyler Perry

*Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel!

*All episode music is by Andrew Osenga.

Guest’s Links:

Jasmine Mullen’s website

Jasmine Mullen’s Facebook

Jasmine Mullen’s Instagram

Connect with Andrew:

How to Remember by Andrew Osenga

Hold the Light by Andrew Osenga

*The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.

Reconciling Chronic Pain and Faith: Liuan Huska Dec 09, 2025

Show notes

Writer and speaker Liuan Huska joins this episode of The Pivot to share her studies on anthropology and her venture into journalism, as well as her book on reconciling chronic pain and illness with faith. Liuan shares about her family’s year-long travels through South America, her work with Christian conservation organization A Rocha, and reflects on how to find wholeness in the middle of life’s challenges.

Thought-Provoking Quotes:

“I just got more and more concerned about environmental issues, just being a human in this world today and noticing things and being sad about pollution and the way that humans have impacted creation in a negative way.” - Liuan Huska

“I had this image of God where He has to act in this certain way for me to maintain a relationship with Him. I had to let go of my images of who God is and what God does in the world.” - Liuan Huska

“If we pray and it matters to God, but it doesn’t actually make the tangible difference we thought it was going to make, then what difference does it make to engage with God and continue this personal relationship where we expect God to respond?” - Liuan Huska

“We have the ability to make a life for ourselves in different places and we can figure things out. You can go anywhere and really plug in and find community.” - Liuan Huska

“It has sometimes just hurt my heart to see that caring for the earth sometimes seems to be treated like an enemy of the church politically sometimes. We are called so clearly in the Scripture to care for the world, to care for the earth. And you look around you and think, This is a gift from God, why would we not want to steward it well?” - Andrew Osenga

Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned:

Hurting Yet Whole by Liuan Huska

A Rocha International

Liuan Huska’s Substack, Becoming Whole

University of Chicago

Christianity Today

U.S. Environmental Protection Agency

Disappointment with God by Philip Yancey

Parker Palmer

My South American Classroom by Liuan Huska

Catherine McNiel

Eugene Peterson

Behold the Lamb of God 2025

*Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel!

*All episode music is by Andrew Osenga.

Guest’s Links:

Liuan Huska’s website

Liuan Huska’s Facebook

Liuan Huska’s Instagram

Connect with Andrew:

How to Remember by Andrew Osenga

Hold the Light by Andrew Osenga

*The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.

Good Theology Meets Good Storytelling: Beth Felker Jones Dec 02, 2025

Show notes

On this episode of The Pivot, we’re joined by Beth Felker Jones, writer and professor of theology at Northern Seminary, and the mastermind behind the Church Blogmatics Substack, where she explores theological themes through storytelling. Beth shares about her journey to becoming a professor, her approach to teaching topics like sexuality to her students and what she’s learned by listening to their stories, and her perspective on the personal nature of our relationship with God.

Thought-Provoking Quotes:

“I remember quite early in my life wishing I had a cool, dramatic conversion story. I knew that was a thing Christians had and that they were beautiful to tell, and I didn’t have one. I think it took me a while to grow up in the truth, and that’s okay.” - Beth Felker Jones

“While dramatic conversion stories are really beautiful, so is the way God draws us near in quiet and domestic settings. It doesn’t have to be fireworks for God to be at work. It’s the same God.” - Beth Felker Jones

“Family is maybe the number one form of evangelism.” - Andrew Osenga

“I love how stories draw us in, and I think that Scripture is primarily a story, a true story. God is at work in love for the world, and Scripture invites us to live in that story and to imagine our lives through that story.” - Beth Felker Jones

“We learn from [stories]. We learn to consider the lives of others, and we learn about love and grace and the way sin works in the world.” - Beth Felker Jones

“I think a lot of people walk out the door of the church because they’ve heard songs that tell them that God is one thing that He’s not, or that doesn’t give space for their suffering or doubt.” - Andrew Osenga

“I learn from my students here. They tell me beautiful stories about falling to the bottom, about their lives falling apart, about a deep hurt that they never thought would come, and about how God has been with them and uses them to bear witness through those troubles.” - Beth Felker Jones

“I suspect that every culture has its inherent beauties and its characteristic tendencies to sin. We can claim the beauties and fight the sin. But culture by itself isn’t just this big, bad thing. Often, it’s beautiful. God loves people and the world and art and thought and all the things that make up culture. God doesn’t throw those out, God redeems them.” - Beth Felker Jones

“I don’t think it’s an accident that the Bible uses marriage, human marriage, as a metaphor for our relationship with God. It’s not the only metaphor, but there are some real ways in which we can learn about one from the other.” - Beth Felker Jones

“I am not of the school which thinks the point of theology is to logically prove all things and line everything up in neat rows. I think theology is more like a poem in that we’re using a really beautiful thing, language, to point to something beyond God, who cannot be fully captured in our language, but who nonetheless has chosen words to communicate with us.” - Beth Felker Jones

Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned:

Why I Am Protestant by Beth Felker Jones

Church Blogmatics Substack

(Check out Andrew’s guest appearance on Beth’s Substack in December!)

Pope Gregory I (Gregory the Great)

*Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel!

*All episode music is by Andrew Osenga.

Guest’s Links:

Beth Felker Jones’ website

Beth Felker Jones’ Facebook

Beth Felker Jones’ X

Beth Felker Jones’ Instagram

Connect with Andrew:

How to Remember by Andrew Osenga

Hold the Light by Andrew Osenga

*The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.

Claude Atcho: The Value in Starting Over Nov 25, 2025

Show notes

Pastor and author Claude Atcho joins The Pivot to discuss the challenging transition from a large, established church to a smaller, new gathering. He explains how this move required him to shed the role of a seasoned veteran and embrace starting over as a newbie. Claude shares insights into the difficulties of driving significant change for one’s family, especially when the decision seems counterintuitive on paper, and offers advice on prioritizing learning and growth over the comfort of established competence.

Thought-Provoking Quotes:

“I remember as a kid really enjoying going to the library, just enjoying the fact that people are creative and they’ve taken the time to capture stories, write them down, or tell somebody else’s story.” - Claude Atcho

“Books mark different transitions in my life.” - Claude Atcho

“Growing up, I loved sports, and came to the realization that most young boys have; Oh, being a pro athlete is probably not in the cards for me. And what does that mean? How do I experience that transition of my future, this taste of realism? How do I find my place in things?” - Claude Atcho

“I wanted to write [my book] for Christians who wanted to think about both literature and how literature can form us and how story matters and can form us, particularly when we put stories in conversation with a story of the kingdom.” - Claude Atcho

“There’s something unique about story and language and it can do something in us that sometimes other things can’t do.” - Claude Atcho

“I think I can use competence as a shield to protect myself from feeling out of control or vulnerable. Starting as a learner, I had to be present to everything in a new way, and I think that was good for me. I’m still learning to do that.” - Claude Atcho

“Major transitions happen in people’s lives all the time, I think I was just not aware of that. I feel like, Oh, I’ll do this forever. No I won’t. I hope to have a good long run wherever I go, but this is happening all the time.” - Claude Atcho

“Rhythms of relationship with Jesus are a way to remind ourselves that this is not a place to be ultimately comfortable, but that we find comfort with Him.” - Andrew Osenga

Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned:

Reading Black Books by Claude Atcho

Rhythms of Faith by Claude Atcho

The Picture of Dorian Gray by Oscar Wilde

*Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel!

*All episode music is by Andrew Osenga.

Guest’s Links:

Claude Atcho’s website

Claude Atcho’s X

Claude Atcho’s Instagram

Connect with Andrew:

How to Remember by Andrew Osenga

Hold the Light by Andrew Osenga

*The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.

Andrew Torrance: Where Science Meets Spiritual Understanding Nov 18, 2025

Show notes

On this episode of The Pivot, we’re joined by Andrew Torrance, Professor of Theology and Co-Director of the Logos Institute for Analytic and Exegetical Theology. Andrew shares about his work with the Scientists in Congregations program that opens up avenues for conversations between faith and scientific communities to learn how they can work together for a better understanding of the world and of our place in it.

Thought-Provoking Quotes:

“[Science] is not a threat to faith, but it’s something that can really be an important part of the life of the church.” - Andrew Torrance

“There’s ways in which science actually exposes the many mysteries that confront the human understanding rather than resolving all of them.” - Andrew Torrance

“What does it mean to be a human that’s been created in the image of God? What are the ways in which human beings are unique in the world?” - Andrew Torrance

“I just love the outdoors. I think that’s what really attracted me towards science, just really trying to understand the natural world in which we find ourselves.” - Andrew Torrance

“How do we think about the relationship between the brain and understanding? Are these two things distinct from one another? There are a lot of psychologists today that want to say we’re purely physical beings, and there’s some that want to recognize that our brain is accompanied by a mind. Human consciousness and our understanding isn’t reducible to the physical brain processes. There’s unique qualities that distinguish the two.” - Andrew Torrance

Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned:

St. Andrews University

Joe Rogan

Scientists in Congregations

Søren Kierkegaard

Karl Barth

*Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel!

*All episode music is by Andrew Osenga.

Guest’s Links:

Andrew’s St. Andrews University page

Connect with Andrew:

How to Remember by Andrew Osenga

Hold the Light by Andrew Osenga

*The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.

How Trauma Rewrote My Worldview: Ross King Nov 11, 2025

Show notes

In this powerful episode of The Pivot, Andrew sits down with fellow Christian musician and songwriter Ross King. In this interview (recorded before he lost his wife Staci to cancer), Ross shares how significant traumas—including his father’s drowning and his wife’s cancer diagnosis—have profoundly changed his loyalties to his own mindset. He discusses the nuanced process of grief, not just for what is lost, but for “the life we wanted,” and the challenging honesty of songwriting through profound suffering. This candid discussion explores how unexpected challenges can lead to difficult but ultimately redemptive personal adjustments, fostering deeper relationships and a re-evaluation of faith.

Thought-Provoking Quotes:

“We are both married to cancer patients. Both of our wives have aggressive, advanced cancer. I don’t share a lot about that, we’ve needed to kind of keep it in our house, but it’s been encouraging for me to watch you wrestle with it publicly. Cancer changes everything.” - Andrew Osenga

“Yeah, I think cancer is afraid of God. But right now, it doesn’t seem like that’s causing any difference in what we’re going through. For me, it was returning to; I really want to be close to God. That’s something I would have said as a kid, but then I probably got too cool to say that. And now I want to say it again, because I really kind of miss that guy.” - Ross King

“I really want closeness to God, but I’m telling you, I’m way too weak and fragile and broken and scared to beg for that, whatever it takes.” - Ross King

“I have this theory that heavily traumatizing things do one of two things to a person’s soul, spirit, psyche. And those two things are on a spectrum, they’re not black and white, but on the two ends of the spectrum are, I will never let that happen to me ever again. I’ll do whatever it takes to make sure that doesn’t happen to me ever. And this is on the other side, for those who are listening and not seeing on the other end is, Oh, this is why people are so crazy and wounded. I have empathy.” - Ross King

“We, in addition to grieving the actual thing that’s happening, we have to grieve the death of the life we wanted. Because it’s a real thing. And no one knows how to help us with that, right?” - Ross King

“If your marriage falls apart, there’s a divorce proceeding. If someone dies, there’s a funeral. If there’s a loss of a job, there is a severance package or unemployment. This particular loss, there is no system for it. And so you have to weep and learn to [deal with the notion]; I wanted my life to be different.” - Ross King

Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned:

Leonard, the Lonely Astronaut album by Andrew Osenga

Al Gore

Mitt Romney

*Watch this interview on the YouTube channel!

*All episode music is by Andrew Osenga.

Guest’s Links:

Ross King’s website

Ross King’s YouTube

Ross King’s Instagram

Ross King’s Facebook

Connect with Andrew: