The Gray Area with Sean Illing

Latest Episodes:

Is ethical investing a scam? Dec 16, 2021

Show notes

Vox's Emily Stewart talks with Tariq Fancy about whether or not "socially responsible investment" is a scam. Fancy is a former executive who led sustainable investing at BlackRock, one of the world's largest asset management firms. The two discuss why these investment vehicles were developed and promoted, the failure of corporations to voluntarily self-regulate, and the need for government action to actually address the issues that ESG funds claim to be taking on.

Host: Emily Stewart (@EmilyStewartM), Senior reporter, Vox

Guest: Tariq Fancy (@sosofancy), founder & CEO, Rumie Initiative; former CIO for sustainable investing, BlackRock

References:

"The thorny truth about socially responsible investing" by Emily Stewart (Vox; Oct. 10)
"Blackrock's former sustainable investing chief now thinks ESG is a 'dangerous placebo'" by Silvia Amaro (CNBC; Aug. 24)
"BlackRock's Message: Contribute to Society, or Risk Losing Our Support" by Andrew Ross Sorkin (New York Times; Jan. 15, 2018)
"Harvard Will Move to Divest its Endowment from Fossil Fuels" by Jasper G. Goodman and Kelsey J. Griffin (The Crimson; Sept. 10)
"The Illusory Promise of Stakeholder Governance" by Lucian A. Bebchuk and Roberto Tallarita (Cornell Law Review; Dec. 2020)
"In His Final Shareholder Letter, Jeff Bezos Explains a Profoundly Simple Lesson Most Leaders Overlook" by Jason Aten (Inc.; Apr. 16)
"Little Engine No. 1 beat Exxon with just $12.5 million" by Svea Herbst-Bayliss (Reuters; June 29)

Enjoyed this episode? Rate Vox Conversations ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ and leave a review on Apple Podcasts.

Subscribe for free. Be the first to hear the next episode of Vox Conversations by subscribing in your favorite podcast app.

Support Vox Conversations by making a financial contribution to Vox! bit.ly/givepodcasts

This episode was made by:

Producer: Erikk Geannikis
Editor: Amy Drozdowska
Engineer: Paul Robert Mounsey
Deputy Editorial Director, Vox Talk: Amber Hall
Vox Audio Fellow: Victoria Dominguez

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The good life is painful Dec 13, 2021

Show notes

Sean Illing talks with psychologist Paul Bloom about his new book The Sweet Spot, and whether it's necessary to experience suffering in order to live a fulfilling, meaningful life. They discuss the rich philosophical history of the question: what does it mean to be happy? They also talk about why some people are drawn to scary movies, whether or not to plug in to the Matrix, and why a good paradigm for a well-lived life might be found in the example of... a stand-up comedian.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), Interviews Writer, Vox

Guest: Paul Bloom (@paulbloomatyale), psychologist; author

References:

The Sweet Spot: The Pleasures of Suffering and the Search for Meaning by Paul Bloom (Ecco; 2021)
The Twilight Zone, season 1, episode 28: "A Nice Place to Visit" (1960)
"Masochism as escape from self" by Roy Baumeister (Journal of Sex Research, 25 (1); 1988)
Anarchy, State, and Utopiaby Robert Nozick (Basic Books; 1974); an excerpt on the "experience machine"
"If you like it, does it matter if it's real?" by Felipe de Brigard (Philosophical Psychology, 23 (1); 2010)
"High income improves evaluation of life but not emotional well-being" by Daniel Kahneman and Angus Deaton (PNAS; 2010)
Flow: The Psychology of Optimal Experienceby Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi (Harper Perennial Modern Classics; 1990)
"What Becoming a Parent Really Does to Your Happiness" by Paul Bloom (Atlantic; Nov. 2)
"A psychologically rich Life: Beyond happiness and meaning" by Shigehiro Oishi and Erin C. Westgate (Psychological Review; 2021)
"Happiness: The Three Traditional Theories" by Martin E.P. Seligman and Ed Royzman (2003)
Trying Not to Try: Ancient China, Modern Science, and the Power of Spontaneity by Edward Slingerland (Crown; 2015)

Enjoyed this episode? Rate Vox Conversations ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ and leave a review on Apple Podcasts.

Subscribe for free. Be the first to hear the next episode of Vox Conversations by subscribing in your favorite podcast app.

Support Vox Conversations by making a financial contribution to Vox! bit.ly/givepodcasts

This episode was made by:

Producer: Erikk Geannikis
Editor: Amy Drozdowska
Engineer: Paul Robert Mounsey
Deputy Editorial Director, Vox Talk: Amber Hall
Vox Audio Fellow: Victoria Dominguez

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The father of environmental justice Dec 09, 2021

Show notes

Vox's Jamil Smith talks with Dr, Robert Bullard, a pioneer in the crusade for environmental justice, about his more than four decades in the fight. They discuss how the movement to recognize environmental civil rights began, overcame some of its early opposition, and the landmark legal case that established a constitutional protection against racist environmental policies and practices. Bullard, a member of the White House Environmental Justice Advisory Council, also discusses how the Biden administration plans to address disproportionately affected communities.

Host: Jamil Smith (@JamilSmith), Senior Correspondent, Vox

Guest: Robert Bullard (@DrBobBullard), co-chair, National Black Environmental Justice Network; professor, Texas Southern University

References:

"Another Reason We Can't Breathe" by Jamil Smith (Rolling Stone; Oct. 27, 2020)
The 17 Principles of Environmental Justice (adopted by the NBEJN on Oct. 27, 1991)
"Environmental Racism: Recognition, Litigation, and Alleviation" by Pamela Duncan (Tulane Environmental Law Journal, vol. 6, no. 2; 1993)
Dumping in Dixie: Race, Class, and Environmental Quality by Robert Bullard (Routledge; 1990)
"One reason why coronavirus is hitting Black Americans the hardest" by Ranjani Chakraborty (Vox; May 22, 2020)
"There's a clear fix to helping Black communities fight pollution" by Rachel Ramirez (Vox; Feb. 26)
"The Path to Achieving Justice 40" by Shalanda Young, Brenda Mallory, and Gina McCarthy (White House; July 20)

Enjoyed this episode? Rate Vox Conversations ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ and leave a review on Apple Podcasts.

Subscribe for free. Be the first to hear the next episode of Vox Conversations by subscribing in your favorite podcast app.

Support Vox Conversations by making a financial contribution to Vox! bit.ly/givepodcasts

This episode was made by:

Producer: Erikk Geannikis
Editor: Amy Drozdowska
Engineer: Paul Robert Mounsey
Vox Audio Fellow: Victoria Dominguez
Deputy Editorial Director, Vox Talk: Amber Hall

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Jill Lepore on Elon Musk's imaginary world Dec 06, 2021

Show notes

Sean Illing talks with historian Jill Lepore about her new podcast: The Evening Rocket explores Elon Musk and the new form of extravagant, extreme capitalism — which Lepore dubs "Muskism" — that he has ushered in. They discuss the formative role played by science fiction stories, why the super-wealthy are drawn to space travel, and why, according to Lepore, Elon Musk is not much of a futurist after all.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), Interviews Writer, Vox

Guest: Jill Lepore, podcast host; professor, Harvard University

References:

Elon Musk: The Evening Rocketby Jill Lepore(Pushkin/BBC; Nov. 2021)
Lo and Behold, Reveries of the Connected World, dir. Werner Herzog (2016)
The Mars Trilogy (Red Mars, Green Mars, Blue Mars) by Kim Stanley Robinson (Del Ray; 1992, 1993, 1996; re-issue 2021)
Technocracy Digest issues on the Internet Archive
"Science Fiction and Mrs. Brown" by Ursula K. Le Guin (1976)
Elon Musk on The Late Show with Stephen Colbert (Sept. 10, 2015)
Elon Musk's Neuralink demonstration (Aug. 28, 2020)
"Newt Gingrich trying to sell Trump on a cheap moon plan" by Bryan Bender (Politico; Aug. 19, 2019)

Enjoyed this episode? Rate Vox Conversations ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ and leave a review on Apple Podcasts.

Subscribe for free. Be the first to hear the next episode of Vox Conversations by subscribing in your favorite podcast app.

Support Vox Conversations by making a financial contribution to Vox! bit.ly/givepodcasts

This episode was made by:

Producer: Erikk Geannikis
Editor: Amy Drozdowska
Engineer: Paul Robert Mounsey
Deputy Editorial Director, Vox Talk: Amber Hall
Vox Audio Fellow: Victoria Dominguez

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

E.O. Wilson's plan to save the world Dec 02, 2021

Show notes

Vox's Benji Jones talks with the celebrated entomologist, biologist, and naturalist E.O. Wilson. They talk about Wilson's sixty-plus years as a leading thinker in his field, how his expeditions studying ant species around the world informed his understanding of human beings, and how his discoveries and ideas have mainstreamed the idea of biodiversity and inspired bold new conservation movements.

Host: Benji Jones (@BenjiSJones), Environmental reporter, Vox

Guest: E.O. Wilson, author; professor emeritus, Harvard University; chair, E.O. Wilson Biodiversity Foundation (@EOWilsonFndtn)

References:

Sociobiology: The New Synthesis by Edward O. Wilson (Harvard; 1975)
"What 'extinction' really means — and what it leaves out" by Benji Jones (Vox; Sept. 30)
"The case against the concept of biodiversity" by Clare Fieseler (Vox; Aug. 5)
The Theory of Island Biogeography by Robert H. MacArthur and Edward O. Wilson (Princeton; 1967)
Half-Earth: Our Planet's Fight for Life by Edward O. Wilson (Liveright; 2017)
The Half-Earth Project

Enjoyed this episode? Rate Vox Conversations ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ and leave a review on Apple Podcasts.

Subscribe for free. Be the first to hear the next episode of Vox Conversations by subscribing in your favorite podcast app.

Support Vox Conversations by making a financial contribution to Vox! bit.ly/givepodcasts

This episode was made by:

Producer: Erikk Geannikis
Editor: Amy Drozdowska
Engineer: Paul Robert Mounsey
Deputy Editorial Director, Vox Talk: Amber Hall
Vox Audio Fellow: Victoria Dominguez

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Workers of the world, stay home! Nov 29, 2021

Show notes

Sean Illing talks with Anne Helen Petersen and her partner Charlie Warzel about their new book, Out of Office: The Big Problem and Bigger Promise of Working from Home. They talk about a new model of remote work, why Americans have a problematic relationship with work, and how to move toward a rational future (as opposed to a national emergency) of working from home.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), Interviews Writer, Vox

Guests: Anne Helen Petersen (@annehelen) & Charlie Warzel (@cwarzel), authors

References:

Out of Office: The Big Problem and Bigger Promise of Working from Homeby Charlie Warzel and Anne Helen Petersen(Knopf; Dec. 7, 2021)
"How millennials became the burnout generation" by Sean Illing, in conversation with Anne Helen Petersen (Vox; Dec. 3, 2020)

Enjoyed this episode? Rate Vox Conversations ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ and leave a review on Apple Podcasts.

Subscribe for free. Be the first to hear the next episode of Vox Conversations by subscribing in your favorite podcast app.

Support Vox Conversations by making a financial contribution to Vox! bit.ly/givepodcasts

This episode was made by:

Producer: Erikk Geannikis
Editor: Amy Drozdowska
Engineer: Paul Robert Mounsey
Deputy Editorial Director, Vox Talk: Amber Hall
Vox Audio Fellow: Victoria Dominguez

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

How progressives get back in the game Nov 22, 2021

Show notes

Sean Illing talks with Briahna Joy Gray, the former national press secretary for the Bernie Sanders 2020 Presidential campaign, and current host of the Bad Faith podcast. They discuss the practical challenges facing the Left in the Biden era, untangle the ways in which race and class affect electoral outcomes and should influence messaging strategies, and assess the state of the ongoing effort for a platform of robust, material economic changes.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), Interviews Writer, Vox

Guest: Briahna Joy Gray (@briebriejoy), Host, Bad Faithpodcast

References:

"Looking for Obama's hidden hand in candidates coalescing around Biden" by Carol E. Lee, Kristen Welker, Josh Lederman and Amanda Golden (NBC News; Mar. 2, 2020)
"'Accelerate the Endgame': Obama's Role in Wrapping Up the Primary" by Glenn Thrush (New York Times; Apr. 14, 2020)
"Race and Realignments In Recent American Elections" by Michael Barber and Jeremy C. Pope (working paper; Nov. 8)
"Commonsense Solidarity: How a working-class coalition can be built, and maintained" by Jared Abbott, Leanne Fan, et al. (Jacobin & Center for Working-Class Politics; Nov. 2021)
Bad Faith, ep. 117: "Are Progressive Policies Really Popular? w/ Matt Bruenig, Eric Levitz, & Osita Nwanevu" (YouTube; Oct. 22)
"A Problem for Kamala Harris: Can a Prosecutor Become President in the Age of Black Lives Matter?" by Briahna Joy Gray (The Intercept; Jan. 20, 2019)
"How Barack Obama helped convince NBA players to end their strike and return to play" by Ricky O'Donnell (SB Nation; Aug. 29, 2020)
White Fragilityby Robin DiAngelo (Beacon; 2020)
Why I Am Not a Feminist: A Feminist Manifestoby Jessa Crispin (Melville House; 2017)

Enjoyed this episode? Rate Vox Conversations ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ and leave a review on Apple Podcasts.

Subscribe for free. Be the first to hear the next episode of Vox Conversations by subscribing in your favorite podcast app.

Support Vox Conversations by making a financial contribution to Vox! bit.ly/givepodcasts

This episode was made by:

Producer: Erikk Geannikis
Editor: Amy Drozdowska
Engineer: Paul Robert Mounsey
Deputy Editorial Director, Vox Talk: Amber Hall
Vox Audio Fellow: Victoria Dominguez

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The highs and lows of the "creator economy" Nov 18, 2021

Show notes

Vox's Rebecca Jennings talks with Taylor Lorenz, tech culture reporter for the New York Times, about the creator economy: what it is, who's in it, and why more people are paying attention to it. They also talk about the hidden toll of running your own individual media company, the elusive term "cheugy," and the perils of reporting on internet culture and becoming (as Taylor occasionally has) part of the story.

Host: Rebecca Jennings (@rebexxxxa), senior correspondent, Vox

Guest: Taylor Lorenz (@TaylorLorenz), technology reporter, New York Times

References:

"For Creators, Everything Is for Sale" by Taylor Lorenz (New York Times; Mar. 11)
"The sexfluencers" by Rebecca Jennings (Vox; Oct. 28)
"my boss is an app and I owe it money" by @prophethusband (Mar. 23, 2018)
"The D'Amelio kids are not all right" by Rebecca Jennings (Vox; Sept. 14)
Chasing Camerondir. Brandon Ayres (Netflix; 2016)
"NFTs Weren't Supposed to End Like This" by Anil Dash (The Atlantic; Apr. 2)
"What Is 'Cheugy'? You Know It When You See It" by Taylor Lorenz (New York Times; May 3)
"What is cheugy? Here are 10 ways to know if you fit the description" by Alexander Kacala and Miah Hardy (The Today Show; May 6)

Enjoyed this episode? Rate Vox Conversations ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ and leave a review on Apple Podcasts.

Subscribe for free. Be the first to hear the next episode of Vox Conversations by subscribing in your favorite podcast app.

Support Vox Conversations by making a financial contribution to Vox! bit.ly/givepodcasts

This episode was made by:

Producer: Erikk Geannikis
Editor: Amy Drozdowska
Engineer: Paul Robert Mounsey
Deputy Editorial Director, Vox Talk: Amber Hall
Vox Audio Fellow: Victoria Dominguez

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Why Chris Hayes thinks we're all famous now Nov 15, 2021

Show notes

Sean Illing talks with Chris Hayes, author, commentator, and host of All In With Chris Hayes on MSNBC. They discuss his recent essay in the New Yorker about fame and the internet, why we seek attention from strangers online, and how some German philosophers might offer guidance for our predicament.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), Interviews Writer, Vox

Guest: Chris Hayes (@chrislhayes), host, All In With Chris Hayes on MSNBC

References:

"On the Internet, We're Always Famous" by Chris Hayes (New Yorker; Sept. 24)
“We Should All Know Less About Each Other” by Michelle Goldberg (New York Times; Nov. 1)
Plato, Phaedrus (c. 370 BCE)
Amusing Ourselves to Death: Public Discourse in the Age of Show Business by Neil Postman (Penguin; 2005)
G.W.F. Hegel, Phenomenology of Spirit (1807)
Introduction to the Reading of Hegel: Lectures on the "Phenomenology of Spirit" by Alexandre Kojève (1947; tr. 1969)
The Attention Merchants: The Epic Scramble to Get Inside Our Heads by Tim Wu (Vintage; 2017)
Why Buddhism is True: The Science and Philosophy of Meditation and Enlightenmentby Robert Wright (Simon & Schuster; 2018)

Enjoyed this episode? Rate Vox Conversations ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ and leave a review on Apple Podcasts.

Subscribe for free. Be the first to hear the next episode of Vox Conversations by subscribing in your favorite podcast app.

Support Vox Conversations by making a financial contribution to Vox! bit.ly/givepodcasts

This episode was made by:

Producer: Erikk Geannikis
Editor: Amy Drozdowska
Engineer: Paul Robert Mounsey
Deputy Editorial Director, Vox Talk: Amber Hall
Vox Audio Fellow: Victoria Dominguez

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The stories soul food tells Nov 11, 2021

Show notes

Vox's Jamil Smith talks with Caroline Randall Williams, academic, poet, and co-author (with her mother, Alice Randall) of Soul Food Love. They discuss the ways in which the African American culinary tradition is interpreted, how to tell stories through cooking, and why what we cook and eat is inextricably bound up with who we are.

Host: Jamil Smith (@JamilSmith), Senior Correspondent, Vox

Guest: Caroline Randall Williams (@caroranwill), author; writer-in-residence of Medicine, Health, and Society, Vanderbilt University

References: