The Gray Area with Sean Illing

Latest Episodes:

What Clarence Thomas really thinks Aug 14, 2023

Show notes

In this episode, which was originally published in August 2022, Sean Illing talks with Corey Robin, author of a 2019 book about the life and thought of Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas. Robin discusses how Thomas — whose concurring opinion in the case that overturned Roe v. Wade garnered recent attention — developed the ideological basis of his extremist judicial philosophy, how his views went from the hard-right fringe to more mainstream over the course of his 30 years on the Supreme Court, and how the failures of the 1960s movements shaped his fundamental pessimism about racial progress in America.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Corey Robin (@CoreyRobin), author; professor of political science, Brooklyn College and CUNY Graduate Center

References:

The Enigma of Clarence Thomas by Corey Robin (Metropolitan; 2019)
"The Self-Fulfilling Prophecies of Clarence Thomas" by Corey Robin (New Yorker; July 9)
Clarence Thomas's opening statement, Anita Hill hearing (C-SPAN; Oct. 11, 1991)
Invisible Man by Ralph Ellison (1952)
Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health Organization (2022); Thomas's concurrence
American Negro Slave Revolts by Herbert Aptheker (1943)
Reconstruction: America's Unfinished Revolution - 1863–1877 by Eric Foner (1988; updated 2014)
The Culture of Narcissism: American Life in An Age of Diminishing Expectations by Christopher Lasch (Norton; 1979)
The Rhetoric of Reactionby Albert O. Hirschman (Harvard; 1991)

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This episode was made by:

Producer: Erikk Geannikis
Editor: Amy Drozdowska
Engineer: Patrick Boyd
Deputy Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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The new crisis of masculinity Aug 07, 2023

Show notes

What does masculinity mean these days? Sean Illing speaks with Christine Emba, a columnist at The Washington Post who wrote the piece “Men are lost. Here’s a map out of the wilderness.” Together they discuss the confusing state of manhood, why figures like Jordan Peterson and Andrew Tate hold appeal, and how masculinity could be redefined.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Christine Emba (@ChristineEmba), Washington Post columnist and author of Rethinking Sex: A Provocation

References:

“Men are lost. Here’s a map out of the wilderness” by Christine Emba (The Washington Post, July 10, 2023)
Rethinking Sex: A Provocation by Christine Emba (Sentinel, 2022)
“Did the sexual revolution go wrong?” from The Gray Area (Vox, May 11, 2022)
“Men and boys are struggling. Should we care?” from The Gray Area (Vox, December 12, 2022)
“The Rage and Joy of MAGA America” by David French (The New York Times, July 6, 2023)

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This episode was made by:

Engineer: Patrick Boyd
Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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How we all became a brand Jul 31, 2023

Show notes

What does it mean to be “authentic” in the digital age? Sean Illing speaks with Tara Isabella Burton about her new book, Self-Made: Creating Our Identities From Da Vinci to the Kardashians. They discuss the history of self-creation, how it’s evolved into personal branding, and why a more collective mindset could benefit all of us.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Tara Isabella Burton (@NotoriousTIB), author of Self-Made: Creating our Identities from Da Vinci to Kardashian

References:

Self-Made: Creating our Identities from Da Vinci to Kardashian by Tara Isabella Burton (Hachette, 2023)
Strange Rites: New Religions for a Godless World by Tara Isabella Burton (Hachette, 2022)
The Brothers Karamazov by Fyodor Dostoyevsky

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This episode was made by:

Producer: Erikk Geannikis
Engineer: Patrick Boyd
Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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The therapeutic potential of MDMA Jul 24, 2023

Show notes

In the ‘80s and ‘90s, MDMA (also known as molly or ecstasy) was dismissed as a club drug and became the target of anti-drug propaganda. Today, it’s on the brink of being legalized for use in clinical therapy to treat conditions like PTSD. How did that happen? And what have we learned about the therapeutic potential of MDMA? Sean discusses all this with Rachel Nuwer, author of I Feel Love: MDMA and the Quest for Connection in a Fractured World. They talk about why they’re excited by the research underway and what it might mean for everyone's well-being.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Rachel Nuwer (@RachelNuwer), journalist and author of I Feel Love: MDMA and the Quest for Connection in a Fractured World

References:

“The extraordinary therapeutic potential of psychedelic drugs, explained,” by Sean Illing (Vox; March 8, 2019)

How to Change Your Mind: What the New Science of Psychedelics Teaches Us About Consciousness, Dying, Addiction, Depression, and Transcendence, by Michael Pollan

“Rolling under the Sea: Scientists Gave Octopuses Ecstasy to Study Social Behavior,” by Rachel Nuwer (Scientific American, December 1, 2018)

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This episode was made by:

Producer: Erikk Geannikis

Engineer: Patrick Boyd

Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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Is the journey to self-discovery pointless? Jul 17, 2023

Show notes

There are many ways people are trying to know themselves these days – from taking the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator test to analyzing their astrological birth charts to identifying their attachment styles. But are any of these methods helpful? Allie Volpe, a senior reporter at Vox, discusses this with Mitch Green, a philosophy professor at the University of Connecticut and author of the book Know Thyself: The Value and Limits of Self-Knowledge. Together they explore why there’s an increased interest in self-knowledge, the merits of self-discovery, and the best way to truly know ourselves.

Host: Allie Volpe (@allieevolpe), Senior Reporter, Vox

Guest: Mitch Green, Philosophy professor at the University of Connecticut

References:

“A personality test can’t tell you who you are” by Allie Volpe (Vox, Jun. 2023)
Know Thyself: The Value and Limits of Self-Knowledgeby Mitchell S. Green (2017, Routledge)
“Why the Meyers-Briggs test is totally meaningless” by Joseph Stromberg and Estelle Caswell (Vox, Oct. 2015)
Strangers to Ourselves: Discovering the Adaptive Unconscious by Timothy D. Wilson (Harvard University Press, 2004)

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This episode was made by:

Engineer: Patrick Boyd
Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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Parenting through the climate crisis Jul 10, 2023

Show notes

Does being a parent today necessarily mean also being a climate activist? Sean Illing speaks with moral philosopher and political theorist Elizabeth Cripps about her new book Parenting on Earth, in which she discusses the real-life moral obligations of raising children in our current ecological crisis. Drawing from her experience raising two daughters, Elizabeth and Sean talk about how both to want the best for your children and to build a better society, the conflicts that arise from putting trust in institutions, and arguments made by some that we shouldn't be having kids at all.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Elizabeth Cripps (@ebcripps), senior lecturer in political theory, University of Edinburgh; author

References:

Parenting on Earth: A Philosopher's Guide to Doing Right By Your Kids and Everyone Elseby Elizabeth Cripps (MIT Press; 2023)
What Climate Justice Means And Why We Should Care by Elizabeth Cripps (Bloomsbury; 2022)
"Moral Saints" by Susan Wolf (Journal of Philosophy, vol. 79 no. 8; Aug. 1982)
Family Values: The Ethics of Parent-Child Relationships by Harry Brighouse and Adam Swift (Princeton University Press; 2014)
How to Blow Up a Pipeline by Andreas Malm (Verso; 2021)
"The case for a more radical climate movement" by Sean Illing (Vox; Oct. 1, 2021)

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This episode was made by:

Producer: Erikk Geannikis
Engineer: Patrick Boyd
Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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Seeing ourselves through darkness Jun 29, 2023

Show notes

When we find ourselves in a dark place, what if we didn't "lighten things up"? Sean Illing talks with philosopher Mariana Alessandri, whose new book Night Vision offers a new way of understanding our dark moods and experiences like depression, pain, and grief. Alessandri describes the deep influence of what she calls the "light metaphor" — the belief that light is good and darkness is bad — and the destructive emotional cycles it has produced. They discuss the influence of Stoic philosophy, Aristotelian ethics, and contemporary self-help — and explore what new paradigms for emotional intelligence might entail.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Mariana Alessandri (@mariana.alessandri), professor of philosophy, University of Texas Rio Grande Valley; author

References:

Night Vision: Seeing Ourselves through Dark Moodsby Mariana Alessandri (Princeton; 2023)
Plato's "allegory of the cave" from the Republic, VI (514a–520a)
The Power of Positive Thinking by Norman Vincent Peale (1952)
The Encheiridion (or "Handbook") of Epictetus (c. 50 – c. 125 AD)
The Dialogues and letters of Seneca (c. 4 BC – 65 AD)
The Meditations of Marcus Aurelius (121 – 180 AD)
The Tusculan Disputations of Cicero (106 – 43 BC)
Aristotle, Nicomachean Ethics
It's OK That You're Not OKby Megan Devine (Sounds True; 2017)
Our Lord Don Quixote by Miguel de Unamuno (1914; tr. 1968)
Borderlands/La Frontera: The New Mestizaby Gloria Anzaldúa (Aunt Lute; 1987)

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Support The Gray Area by making a financial contribution to Vox! bit.ly/givepodcasts

This episode was made by:

Producer: Erikk Geannikis
Engineer: Patrick Boyd
Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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Best of: A new philosophy of love Jun 26, 2023

Show notes

Sean Illing talks with Carrie Jenkins about her new book Sad Love, and her call to rethink the shape and boundaries of romantic love. In this far-ranging discussion about the meaning of romantic love, Sean and Carrie discuss the connection between love and happiness, what we should expect (and not expect) from our romantic partners, and whether or not loving a person must entail that we love only that person.

This was originally released as an episode of Vox Conversations in September 2022.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Carrie Jenkins (@carriejenkins), writer; professor of philosophy, University of British Columbia

References:

Sad Love: Romance and the Search for Meaning by Carrie Jenkins (Polity; 2022)
"A philosopher makes the case for polyamory" by Sean Illing (Vox; Feb. 16, 2018)
What Love Is: And What It Could Be by Carrie Jenkins (Basic; 2017)
Nausea by Jean-Paul Sartre (1949)
Nicomachean Ethics by Aristotle (see Book I, or Book X.6-8 for robust discussion of eudaimonia)
Marina Adshade, economist
Man's Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl (1946; tr. Ilse Lasch)

Enjoyed this episode? Rate The Gray Area ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ and leave a review on Apple Podcasts.

Subscribe for free. Be the first to hear the next episode of The Gray Area by subscribing in your favorite podcast app.

Support The Gray Area by making a financial contribution to Vox! bit.ly/givepodcasts

This episode was made by:

Producer: Erikk Geannikis
Editor: Amy Drozdowska
Engineers: Patrick Boyd & Cristian Ayala
Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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The future of tribalism Jun 22, 2023

Show notes

Sean Illing talks with evolutionary anthropologist David Samson, whose new book Our Tribal Future delves into how tribalism has shaped the human story — and how we might be able to mitigate its negative effects in the future. Sean and David discuss how and when tribal organization came on the scene, what changed in human organization when it did, and how taking advantage of some positive aspects of tribal alignment could provide a path toward inoculating humanity against stubborn, regressive divisiveness.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: David Samson (@Primalprimate), professor of anthropology, University of Toronto; author

References:

Our Tribal Future: How to Channel Our Foundational Human Instincts into a Force for Goodby David R. Samson (St. Martin's; 2023)
"Dunbar's number" by Robin Dunbar (New Scientist)
The Nunn Lab, Duke University
PDF: Surgeon General's Advisory on Our Epidemic of Loneliness and Isolation (May 3)
"Human Response to Disaster" by Charles E. Fritz (Proceedings of the HFES, vol. 18 no. 3; 1974)
Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankindby Yuval Noah Harari (Signal; 2014)
The Expanding Circle: Ethics, Evolution, and Moral Progress by Peter Singer (Princeton; 2011)
"Peter Singer on his ethical legacy" (The Gray Area; May 25)
Blueprint: The Evolutionary Origins of a Good Society by Nicholas A. Christakis (Little Brown Spark; 2019)
Bill Nye debates Ken Ham (Feb. 4, 2014)
God and Evolution? The Implications of Darwin's Theory for Fundamentalism, the Bible, and the Meaning of Life by Daniel J. Samson (Solon; 2006)

Enjoyed this episode? Rate The Gray Area ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ and leave a review on Apple Podcasts.

Subscribe for free. Be the first to hear the next episode of The Gray Area. Subscribe in your favorite podcast app.

Support The Gray Area by making a financial contribution to Vox! bit.ly/givepodcasts

This episode was made by:

Producer: Erikk Geannikis
Engineer: Patrick Boyd
Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

When you can't separate art from artist Jun 15, 2023

Show notes

What do we do when an artist we love does something monstrous? Constance Grady, a culture writer at Vox, talks with Claire Dederer, the author of Monsters: A Fan’s Dilemma. They discuss how to reckon with the facts and feelings of consuming art by someone who's done something bad, if it's possible to separate the art from the artist, and what responsibility — if any — comes with being a fan.

Host: Constance Grady, (@constancegrady), culture and gender writer

Guest: Claire Dederer, author of Monsters: A Fan’s Dilemma

References:

Monsters: A Fan’s Dilemma by Claire Dederer (Penguin Random House, 2023)
“What Do We Do with the Art of Monstrous Men?” by Claire Dederer (The Paris Review, 2017)
Dept. of Speculation by Jenny Ofill (Penguin Random House, 2014)
Mad at Miles: A Blackwoman’s Guide to Truth by Pearl Cleage (Cleage Group Publication, 1990)

Enjoyed this episode? Rate The Gray Area ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ and leave a review on Apple Podcasts.

Subscribe for free. Be the first to hear the next episode of The Gray Area. Subscribe in your favorite podcast app.

Support The Gray Area by making a financial contribution to Vox! bit.ly/givepodcasts

This episode was made by:

Engineer: Patrick Boyd
Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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