Stay ConnectedBurnt Toast is your body liberation community. We’re working to dismantle diet culture and anti-fat bias, and we have a lot of strong opinions about comfy pants.
Co-hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (NYT-bestselling author of FAT TALK) and Corinne Fay (author of the popular plus size fashion newsletter Big Undies).
Copyright: © Virginia Sole-Smith
Jamilah is an award-winning writer, cultural critic, and leading voice in digital feminism, known for shaping online conversations around race, gender, and relationship. She writes the Care and Feeding Parenting Advice column for Slate, and her work has appeared in outlets like the Los Angeles Times, Vanity Fair, and the Washington Post.
I've been a fan of Jamilah from Slate's Care and Feeding Parenting Podcast, where she was a longtime co-host. Today we get into who gets to call themselves a single mom, the kind of social life co-parenting lets you have, the importance of friends, and we ask: Is dating (especially for single moms) a diet?
Corinne hops on to debrief with me about my conversation with Jamilah. Indulgence Gospel segments are audio-only so don't miss out! You can listen right here (tap "play" above) or add us to Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen.
Another great way to support Burnt Toast is to MAKE SURE you are following us for free in your podcast player! And if you have two more seconds, please leave us a rating and/or review! Just scroll down wherever you're listening and tap the stars, five of them please, and leave a little note about why you love Burnt Toast. Both of these things really help new listeners find conversations like these!
BUTTER
Jamilah: Old Wisconsin Yumbo honey brown sugar turkey sausage stick.
Virginia: Kin by Tayari Jones
EPISODE CREDITS
Co-hosts: Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay.
Producer: Kim Baldwin.
Logo design: Deanna Lowe.
Theme Song: Farideh.
Video Editor: Elizabeth Ayiku
Audio Engineer: Tommy Harron
Follow us on social!
Virginia is on Instagram and Threads as @v_solesmith and on Bluesky at @virginiasolesmith.
Corinne is on Instagram at @selfiefay, on Bluesky at @corinnefay and on Patreon at Big Undies.
Support the Me Little Me Foundation, a virtual food pantry supporting multiply marginalized folks recovering from eating disorders.
Thanks for listening and supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!
We're getting into:
⭐️ What the heck is a peptide? Why would one stack them?
⭐️ Clavicular, the 20-year-old looksmaxxer extraordinaire.
⭐️ Why Bro Science is exhausting and deliberately hard to fact-check.
⭐️ Why are so many peptide fans... also anti-vax?
To hear that bonus segment, read the transcript, and join us in the comments, you do need to be an Extra Butter subscriber.
Butter
Virginia: toe spreaders, Petra Fisher
Corinne: Instant Glow Serum
EPISODE CREDITS
Co-hosts: Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay.
Producer: Kim Baldwin.
Logo design: Deanna Lowe.
Theme Song: Farideh.
Video Editor: Elizabeth Ayiku
Audio Engineer: Tommy Harron
Follow us on social!
Virginia is on Instagram and Threads as @v_solesmith and on Bluesky at @virginiasolesmith.
Corinne is on Instagram at @selfiefay, on Bluesky at @corinnefay and on Patreon at Big Undies.
Support the Me Little Me Foundation, a virtual food pantry supporting multiply marginalized folks recovering from eating disorders.
Thanks for listening and supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!
Emma is the author of the nationally bestselling novel Housemates and the story collection Fat Swim. Her essays, literary criticism and reporting have appeared in The New Republic, Granta, and Esquire among others, and she writes the Substack newsletter Frump Feelings. She lives in Philadelphia.
Emma joined me to chat about her new short story collection Fat Swim, fat characters in fiction, what thin authors get wrong, why we’re over Jonathan Franzen and so much more.
Corinne is going to hop on to debrief this interview with me. We're talking about fat kids in fiction, our Default Outfits and MORE! Paid subscribers all get commenting privileges and a full episode transcript. JOIN US HERE.
Photo by Kenzi Crash
EPISODE CREDITS
Co-hosts: Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay.
Producer: Kim Baldwin.
Logo design: Deanna Lowe.
Theme Song: Farideh.
Video Editor: Elizabeth Ayiku
Audio Engineer: Tommy Harron
Follow us on social!
Virginia is on Instagram and Threads as @v_solesmith and on Bluesky at @virginiasolesmith.
Corinne is on Instagram at @selfiefay, on Bluesky at @corinnefay and on Patreon at Big Undies.
Support the Me Little Me Foundation, a virtual food pantry supporting multiply marginalized folks recovering from eating disorders.
Thanks for listening and supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!
In the original episode, we asked, "Is Mel Robbins a Diet?"
Plot Twist (or is it?): Mel is now selling nutritional supplements. Protein shots, to be exact—so we decided to give them a try.
Paid subscribers can listen or WATCH Corinne try Mel Robbins' Pure Genius protein shot and give us her honest review. 👀
Free list: You won't want to miss this! Subscribe here.
EPISODE CREDITS
Co-hosts: Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay.
Producer: Kim Baldwin.
Logo design: Deanna Lowe.
Theme Song: Farideh.
Video Editor: Elizabeth Ayiku
Audio Engineer: Tommy Harron
Follow us on social!
Virginia is on Instagram and Threads as @v_solesmith and on Bluesky at @virginiasolesmith.
Corinne is on Instagram at @selfiefay, on Bluesky at @corinnefay and on Patreon at Big Undies.
Support the Me Little Me Foundation, a virtual food pantry supporting multiply marginalized folks recovering from eating disorders.
Thanks for listening and supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!
This is a special episode because we recorded in person! I traveled to New Mexico to see Corinne, have new Burnt Toast headshots taken and visit Meow Wolf with my kiddo and my boyfriend. It was a glorious trip and I'm excited to share some of the behind the scenes with you today.
In this episode we're talking about:
⭐️ Why it's so hard to have your photo taken.
⭐️ Thin friends not putting their fat friends on the grid.
⭐️ The art of a good selfie.
One audio note: our Airbnb in Santa Fe was an acoustical odyssey, so please bear with us on the sound quality.
You need to be a paid Just Toast subscriber to listen to this full conversation. Membership starts at just $5 per month! Learn more at https://www.patreon.com/virginiasolesmith/join.
Sign up for just $5!🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈
Virginia
We're recording in person from an Airbnb in Santa Fe, New Mexico. If the audio is not perfect today, it's not Tommy's fault. It's that we're doing it in an adobe room and that creates some echoes.
Corinne
We have covered the floors with soft things, but it's still very echo-y.
Virginia
So bear with us. This is only our second ever in person episode, so it's going to be a really fun one.
This is a Just Toast episode. As we explained on our previous Extra Butter episode, we're no longer calling it the Indulgence Gospel, although we always will in my heart.
We're trying to make it clear what kind of episode you're listening to. So if you are listening to this whole episode right now, you are a Just Toast subscriber, which means you are a regular paid subscriber tier. There's also our premium tier, Extra Butter, for a little more money where you can get behind every single paywall. Whichever tier you are, we're very happy you're here.
Corinne
We're going to talk about something we did yesterday.
Virginia
Corinne and I did something together for the first time.
Corinne
If you're a longtime listener subscriber, you may have noticed that we have no photos together.
Virginia
Except one we took in a hot tub two years in Hot Springs.
Corinne
Yesterday, while Virginia is here in New Mexico, we got some photos taken by a photographer named Molly Haley.
Virginia
Who is an old friend of yours.
Corinne
We went to middle school and high school together.
Virginia
Since we were doing a photo shoot, we thought, well, we've got to talk about photos on the podcast because it's a whole thing.
Corinne
Photos can be hard!
Virginia
I would amend that sentence and say photos are hard.
Corinne
Although your child would disagree.
Virginia
My 8-year-old keeps telling us that that's a silly thing to think and photos are great and they love having their photo taken.
Corinne
They're not wrong.
Virginia
No, it's a lot of stuff. A lot of diet culture noise. It's a lot of being seen, I think. Being perceived.
Corinne
Would you say that you've struggled with photos?
You are listening to Burnt Toast. I'm Virginia Sole Smith. Today my conversation is with Keri Harvey. Keri is an NASM certified personal trainer and a pain-free performance specialist specializing in beginner strength. She's a part owner of Form Fitness Brooklyn and has recently gotten into powerlifting. She just competed in her first sanctioned meet and won first place in her weight class. Keri began her career in personal training after her own fitness journey transformed from aesthetic focused to working on feeling strong and capable in everyday life, a very Burnt Toast trajectory. Her training style involves feeling less focused on the number on the scale and more on how people feel. She's a firm believer in setting performance-related goals, such as feeling less winded after the dreaded subway station steps. Keri was featured as one of Self magazine’s Everyday Athletes and collaborated as a fitness expert in Shape, Self, Livestrong, and Women’s Health magazines. Her ultimate goal is to help cultivate an inclusive and welcoming environment in the gym, and for all of her clients to leave each session feeling strong and powerful. Keri is hosting a pop-up strength class called Strong on Purpose in Houston, Texas on April 11th.Keri joined me to chat about her relationship to fitness and movement, getting stitched by toxic gym bros on TikTok, misconceptions about fat personal trainers and so much more. We've also got answers to some of your listener questions. This is a great episode. I think you're going to get so much out of it.Here is Keri.If you enjoy this conversation, a paid subscription is the best way to support our work!Join Burnt Toast🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈Episode 240 TranscriptVirginia We are really big fans of yours here at Burnt Toast. For anyone who doesn't already follow you on Instagram or TikTok, why don't you just tell us a little bit about yourself, your work and your relationship with fitness and movement?Keri I am a certified personal trainer. I currently am a part owner at a gym called Form Fitness Brooklyn, which is a personal training studio. The reason that I'm here and the reason that I exist in this field is because there's not a lot of body diversity in the fitness industry. I wanted to be a part of helping other people feel seen.I live in a larger body and I show up every day in this body and do a lot of really cool things with it because I want to and because I want other people to feel like they can, as well. My relationship with fitness is one of exploration, being curious about what I can do and trying to approach it from a viewpoint of being balanced in acknowledging the fact that no one is ever at one hundred percent. I'm trying to make sure that I don't stress myself out too much trying to be perfect and just focusing on showing up as me and seeing what I can do. It has done wonders for my mental health and my physical health, because I'm showing up consistently.Virginia I love that. I was just watching a reel you did about working out with a migraine, which as a fellow migraine girlie, I found deeply relatable. That feeling of, This isn't going to be the best, but it's probably going to make me feel a little bit better. And I'm annoyed about it, but I'm here anyway.Immediately, I'm like, Why don't I live in Brooklyn so I can come to your gym? We need more body diversity. We need more of this whole ethos in the fitness space, for sure.Keri Absolutely.Virginia If I remember correctly, you went viral on TikTok. Some gym bro ... Oh, the gym bros of TikTok. I could do a whole podcast just on that, but we'll move on. A gym bro stitched you as an example of who not to hire as a fitness trainer - sorry, I can't even say that without laughing - then another less gym bro stitched him and schooled him on anti-fat bias. Then you made a response video. Am I remembering that narrative correctly?Keri That's absolutely how it went.Virginia How did you feel about all of that? Did you feel supported in that moment by the other guy's response?Keri That's such a loaded question. I did feel supported, and at the same time, it is a little strange having people stitch your videos, whether it's to be positive or negative, and not reach out and tell you that they're doing it.Virginia That feels like an etiquette breach, for sure.Keri It feels like people are talking about you behind your back, whether it's positive or negative. So that was a little bit weird. However, I did feel supported in knowing that there are people in this industry who are not poisoned by the idea that the way someone's body looks tells you about them as a person, or that there is something wrong with the way that someone's body looks.One person who stitched my video and had positive things to say, his statement really stuck with me. He said that 'The world is really big and there are people with all kinds of goals. And so Keri may be right for someone, even if she's not right for you.' I've really taken that with me because that's the truth.Everyone has different goals fitness-wise, and you should have your own personal goals. But the world is very big and just because one trainer is not right for you doesn't mean they're not right for someone else and vice versa.Virginia I've been on the receiving end of some gym bro critiques. I always think, Sir, I'm not for you. You are not for me. Why are you spending your time on this? How much am I bugging you just by existing that you needed to spend this time to make this video?I'm not going to lie, there's something a little satisfying about the idea that I'm not thinking about him at all, but he is so annoyed he has to make a video about us. That feels like a little bit of a win maybe.Keri Absolutely. I always think about like the fact that they're raising their blood pressure arguing with their phone because I'm not wasting my time arguing back.Virginia And you know they're so careful with their macros and everything, and yet to risk it.Keri Don't risk it. You're going to pass out. You should calm down.Virginia We love your content. You make really great videos. I used to do a lot of video making. I took a long break from it. Getting back in the game is not easy. There is a lot of work that goes into making Instagram content and TikTok content. I don't think people understand that.I wonder how you think about the importance of showing yourself working out in a gym because that representation, like you were saying, matters so much.Keri I am very, I think the word that I want to use here is purposeful, about the way I show up in the gym and the way I show myself on social media inside of a gym. Because I have Form Fitness, I don't have to go to a big box gym and workout. However, I do - one, because I like to get out of the space. And two, because I want to know what it's like for my client who's like, 'Listen, I'm really nervous about walking into this gym because I don't know what that's like if I'm just in this small room where I know that everyone views fitness and bodies the way that I do.' I walk into spaces that make me uncomfortable so that I can feel what my clients feel. Then when I'm filming content, I'm also really not worried about "Can you see my belly outline?" "Is my arm fat hanging out of the bra behind me?" Because that's just bodies. They move and jiggle because you are moving. That's how that works. I really try to make sure that when I'm posting online, I'm showing you that too because not a single person stops me in the gym and says, "Hey, your belly." No one would ever do that, and I want you to know that.Virginia It's a lot like going to a public swimming pool in the summer and being like, Oh wait, it's just bodies. Everything we see online about getting in a swimsuit is actually bullshit because everyone's here just to cool off.Keri The more that I have found freedom in that, the more I realize bodies are so beautiful because they're different. That's what makes them so beautiful. Why would I be worried about looking like someone else? There's so much beauty in my body.The other thing that I was going to say about filming at the gym is my consistent showing up there has helped me make friends with people who don't look anything like me and have different goals than me. I posted a video about that a little while after the internet trolls started coming, about the fact that the people on the internet are not the same people who are inside the gym. The ones who are doing the work, who are showing up every day - they don't think anything like those trolls on the internet. I have a lot of really cool relationships with people who look nothing like me and have different goals than me, but we're there and we're working hard. You can work on your stuff. I'm going to work on my stuff and no one is rude or nasty in any way. The gym can be a safe place and I want people to see that.VirginiaI really need to hear this. I am a longtime home weightlifter and I definitely am getting to the point where the amount of weights I would need to buy at home is like, you know, the math is starting to not math. As a fat woman, I have a lot of gym fear. As a formerly very un-athletic child, all my physical education trauma kicks in. It's so real. I have had some not great experiences in gyms, although as we're talking about this, I'm realizing I've had those experiences fat and I've had them thin. Some of it is just being a woman in a male-dominated space. Anyone listening who feels similarly terrified of the gym, I really get it. It's so real. What you're saying is really helpful.Keri I'm glad. At the end of the day, just walking outside, unfortunately we encounter some characters, but I think that when you feel comfortable in a space because you know that you belong there, you're able to focus on you. For the most part, that's what everybody else in the gym is doing, too.If they're not, then that's a huge issue that has absolutely nothing to do with you. But if you are able to show up enough times to start feeling a little more comfortable there, then you won't be as worried about what other people around you are thinking, because nine times out of 10, they're only thinking, 'How many reps did I just do?' and 'Is my form right?'Virginia 'When do I have to leave to pick up my kid?' It's so true.It is the deep irony of fatphobia that all the trolls are like, 'We're so concerned for your health, we're so concerned for your health.' And yet also fat people are made to feel uncomfortable in health-promoting spaces. Which is it guys?Keri I had that happen literally today. I opened my Instagram and someone had commented on a video, "You're saying this is your favorite workout, but you're still fat." Yes. This is the body I live in. And yes this is my favorite workout. You literally just repeated what I said to you.But that's the thing, right? You're complaining that I'm not moving my body, and yet I'm showing you that I am.Virginia Literally right in front of you. It's just a reminder yet again that you'll never get anywhere with internet trolls, and that's not who we do any of this for.Keri Absolutely. That's right.Virginia On a related note to just all the things you are doing in the gym, I think thin people don't always realize, but fat people are very strong. I feel like often people would look at me and not realize how strong I am, but I can carry the 20 pound bag of cat litter down the stairs to the basement. I can carry my third grader up to bed, which is a real accomplishment at this point. What other misconceptions do you find people have about what fat people can and can't do, especially in fitness spaces?KeriIn general, there's a lot of people with the idea that fat people just aren't athletic, don't have the ability to be athletic. I'm in the same boat as you. I did not grow up as an athletic kid. I did whatever I could to avoid P.E.When we look at sports, and even the Olympics, when we see all of these bodies, some are fat bodies, some are smaller bodies, and they're all able to do all these amazing things. It's a reminder that the size of someone's body has nothing to do with their abilities. I think there are a lot of people who still don't realize that.Virginia I think gracefulness is another one. People don't think fat people can be graceful in the same way or coordinated in the same way. Something I've really appreciated about your content is I think you move really gracefully. I think it's a narrative that we're sometimes in our heads about, especially forms of fitness that require faster movements or things along those lines.Keri I'm thinking about jumping right now. That's a big one.Virginia People have a lot of fear of jumping.Keri Absolutely. And, you know, there are people in all sizes of bodies who experience joint pain. That's a thing that no one is exempt from. However, I think that when you learn what things your body likes and what things it doesn't, that's great because there are some forms of movement that you may choose to not participate in. I never want anyone to just assume that they can't do certain things. You don't know until you try. When you try, you also need to be able to learn how to scale up, scale back and figure out what feels right.Virginia You have a great reel about making child's pose work in a bigger body. Sometimes this assumption of, 'I can't do this type of movement.' It's like, 'Well, maybe that's because you've only seen a thin body do it.' Actually, you totally can. It just looks different for your body.Keri I love being the first person to show someone that a squat can be wider if you need some room for your belly because it's always such a light bulb moment. I'm sure it was the same for me when I first was starting out, but then when I actually widened my stance and was able to sit into it, it was like, Ah. It was amazing.Virginia It feels so good.Keri The realization that there's nothing wrong with your body. You just need to adjust.Virginia On the flip side, what you were just saying about joint pain is making me think how sometimes we assume body size is the reason we won't be good at something. It's actually nothing to do with the body size. You're stiff, but thin people are also stiff. There are other examples of that too, right?KeriAbsolutely. A lot of us are sitting at a desk all day long. We're hunched over a computer, hunched over our phone. All of these things create stiffness. All of these things result in maybe a little bit of joint pain for some people. There's also the genetic side of things and medications. This has nothing to do with the size of your body. It's depends on the person type of situation.VirginiaThat's really helpful for people to keep in mind. We're going to get into some listener questions, but before we do, I want to make sure we talk a little bit about rest, both literally and figuratively. Obviously, your body needs rest in between workouts, but in the world, especially right now, our hearts need rest, like we need rest. What is your relationship to rest like right now?Keri I do not play about my rest. As someone in a field where I'm constantly people-facing and every hour that I spend with my clients is one where I…
Full show notes at the publisherThis normally where we would say "Welcome to Indulgence Gospel After Dark, " but today we're saying, "Welcome to Extra Butter."
Longtime listeners know that we used to call the Virginia and Corinne episodes "Indulgence Gospel" in honor of a troll comment. We still love the name and are having a hard time letting it go, but we wanted to make it easier to know what kind of episode you're listening to when you listen to Burnt Toast.
Burnt Toast has three membership tiers:
Burnt Toast free member 💛 (Free!)
Just Toast member 🍞 ($5/month or $50 annually)
Extra Butter member 🧈 ($10/month or $100 annually)
And Today we have an Extra Butter Episode! If you're listening to this episode, you're part of the premium tier, which means you're one of our favorite Burnt Toasties. You can get behind every paywall! Your support makes all our work possible and keeps Burnt Toast and ad and sponsor free space.
Today we are talking about:
⭐️ Fat fashion. Is it getting harder to shop?
⭐️ Virginia's bad boyfriend (J. Crew).
⭐️ How the oversized fashion trend leaves out fat people.
We're also answering listener questions about:
⭐️ Skinny jeans, yay or nay?
⭐️ Managing a wardrobe to fit weight fluctuations.
⭐️ How are we wearing layers during perimenopause?
To hear the whole thing, read the full transcript, and join us in the comments, you do need to be an Extra Butter subscriber. Learn more at https://www.patreon.com/virginiasolesmith/join.
Who doesn't want extra butter on their toast?🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈
Corinne:
Today we have a very exciting (for me) topic, which is we're going to talk about fat fashion, spring edition.
Virginia:
Is it getting harder to shop?
Corinne:
I mean, quick answer: yes.
Virginia:
Absolutely. It's terrible out there. Is it the state of the world, is it retail, or is it both? We're going to get into how it's feeling like there are fewer plus-size options, and we're going to get into some of your practical questions.
Today we are talking about:
⭐️ The new, skinny American Girl dolls
⭐️ Does taking a GLP-1 make you a better parent?
We're also answering listener questions about:
⭐️ The diet culture voice in your head
⭐️ Colonoscopy prep and the feelings it brings up
⭐️ Virginia's review of the Heated Rivalry books
You need to be a paid Just Toast subscriber to listen to this full conversation. Membership starts at just $5 per month! Learn more at https://www.patreon.com/virginiasolesmith/join.
Sign up for just $5!🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈
Virginia
Today we are catching up on some things we are mad about in March.
Corinne
Some people have been annoying us.
Virginia
We have a list, and you may or may not be on the list. First up is ...
Savala is a writer, public speaker and professor at UC Berkeley. Her brand new book, Good Woman: A Reckoning is out now.
Her first book, Don’t Let It Get You Down: Essays on Race, Gender and the Body, was shortlisted for the William Saroyan Prize and celebrated as a “standout collection” by the New York Times. Savala's writing has been featured in Vogue, Harper’s Magazine, the New York Times, NPR, TIME and more.
Today is the second part of my conversation with Savala. In part one, we talked about bodies, race and gender. Today in part two, we're getting into sex, divorce and classy and trashy Butters.
One last thing! If you order Good Woman from my local independent bookstore, Split Rock Books, you can take 10% off if you have also ordered a copy of my book Fat Talk from them. Go to Split Rock Books and use the code "fat talk" at checkout.
Here's Savala.
You need to be a paid Just Toast subscriber to listen to this full conversation. Membership starts at just $5 per month!🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈
Virginia
All right, we've got to talk about men a little bit.
Savala
Do we have to? No, I'm kidding. I love them.
Virginia
I really questioned whether we did. You write really well about men in this book. You articulate a lot about a certain kind of man that is going to be very familiar to a lot of our listeners. You call him the "voting booth feminist." Define voting booth feminist and tell us how that particular type of man, perhaps without realizing it, contributes to this narrative about what a "good woman" should be.
Savala
Well, the voting booth feminist is alive and well, Virginia. I was married to one.
You're listening to Burnt Toast. I'm Virginia Sole-Smith. Today my conversation is with none other than the beloved, the brilliant, Lindy West. Lindy is the author of four books, The New York Times bestselling memoir, Shrill, as well as the essay collections, The Witches Are Coming and Shit, Actually, and her brand new memoir Adult Braces, out now.Lindy is a former contributing opinion writer for The New York Times. Her work has appeared in This American Life, The Guardian, Cosmopolitan, GQ, Vulture, Jezebel and many others. She is the co-host of the comedy podcast, Text Me Back!!! and the author of the newsletter Butt News. Lindy was a writer and executive producer on Shrill, the Hulu comedy adapted from her memoir, and she co-wrote and produced the independent feature film, Thin Skin. She lives on the Olympic Peninsula in rural Washington state. Lindy joined me to chat about her brand new memoir, Adult Braces. We get into her relationship to fatness, having people comment rather relentlessly on her marriage, why more best friends should start podcasts and so much more—including a quesadilla she invents in real time while we recorded. You are going to love this one. This conversation with Lindy is so juicy that we're breaking it up into two episodes! In Part 1 we’re talking about her brand new memoir, Adult Braces, as well as her eating disorder therapy, being a public fat person and having people comment on her body and her marriage.In Part 2, we're getting into non-monogamy, the benefits of being in a throuple, podcasting and so much more! If you're already a paid subscriber, you've got both parts of the episode right here, right now in your inbox! Everyone else: Join Burnt Toast today to hear the whole thing! Membership starts at just $5 per month and also gets you commenting privileges.One last thing! You will want to read Adult Braces after hearing this conversation. If you order it from my local independent bookstore, Split Rock Books, you can take 10% off if you have also ordered a copy of my book Fat Talk from them. Go to Split Rock Books and use the code "fat talk" at checkout.Here's Lindy West.If you enjoy this conversation, a paid subscription is the best way to support our work!Join Burnt Toast🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈Virginia We are here to talk about your new memoir, Adult Braces. My producer Kim and I both read it. We loved it. Like, crying laughing, full body experience reading this book. LindyThank you so much!VirginiaDo you want to give us a brief summary of what the book is about?Lindy The book is about a road trip that I took in 2021 from Seattle to Key West and back, which I decided to do when I was having a crisis in my life. I needed to get away from my house, and I needed to get away from my family and my responsibilities.I had found out a couple years earlier that my husband had a secret girlfriend, which was sort of illegal in our relationship, sort of not. That was quite a topic of conversation for several years, and we eventually figured it out. But then I was exhausted from a year of COVID and three years of non-stop couples therapy. I was like, I gotta get out of here. So I left and I drove to Florida in a van that I rented. I slept in the van. I just wanted to be out in the world and be brave and alive. The road trip stories are interspersed with chapters about my life before. A big message, at least for me, is that it's really easy to read my crisis as this monogamy/polyamory conversation, but when I think back on it, everything about my life was messed up before that. I had so many other problems, in my mental health, in the way that I managed my career, my life and my brain chemicals. I wanted to build a full picture of that, because I think the easy story is like, 'Oh, no good husband.' But it was a lot more complicated than that, and a lot of it stemmed from work that I had to do on myself, which is ultimately the only work that I can do. I can't do work on my husband.Virginia Nope. A lot of us learned that the hard way.Lindy Right! That was actually one of my problems. I was constantly waiting for my husband to transform into the person that I had imagined would be my husband, and that's not how people work.Virginia It's annoying, but true. Lindy It's very annoying. The book is about all of those figurative journeys happening at once, and also my literal journey. Virginia It's spectacular. The van alone. I'm obsessed with the van. There's a mural on the outside of the van. It's incredible.Lindy The van has a big, scary rabbit on one side and then a big, anxious sheep on the other side. The van was named BAAA, like the noise a sheep makes. I think I'm going to make some social media content out of this. I'm trying to be an influencer in order to promote this book. I want the van. I want that van. I want it in my possession.VirginiaI was sad when you gave it back. LindyI know! Me too, and now the company has gone out of business. I tried to rent the van for my book tour and they don't exist anymore. Someone has that van. I think I'm going to do a social media campaign called "Help me find my van," so that I can buy it.Virginia Burnt Toast listeners, if any of you have a van with a rabbit on one side and a sheep on the other, hit us up. Even if it's a different van with that art, I think Lindy would be interested.LindyYes. I will pay upwards of $1,000.Virginia To get that van back. It was a sad moment. It was like the end of those movies with a person on a journey with an animal, and they say goodbye. It was like the volleyball in that Tom Hanks movie.Lindy Oh, my God, yeah. I had to watch BAAA float away on the ocean. BAAA had really been there for me. BAAA is an old lady now. Maybe she doesn't exist anymore, because she already had 250,000 miles on her and then I drove her another 50,000.VirginiaShe was in her golden years. LindyShe was in her golden years. But I think those Ford Transit vans are built to last, so I think someone has her. It turns out all the van companies are going out of business because I had a really hard time finding a van. I called three different companies that had all recently gone out of business, because #vanlife is not that popular anymore now that people have #donthavetowearamasklife.Virginia They had a little Renaissance moment there.Lindy I called this other company that was going out of business, and I was like, "Well, what are you doing with your fleet?" I know the all the terms now. I was like, "What's happening to your fleet? Can I buy one of your vans?" And he was like, "Yeah, they're $90,000." Sorry, excuse me?Virginia It doesn't even have a rabbit on it, sir.Lindy This van is blank. I think that if there's any hope for me getting a van, it's got to be old lady BAAA. If you're listening and you know where BAAA ended up, please call me.Virginia I mean, I'm now picturing that BAAA probably has a new owner who also really loves her. There's going to be a complicated journey to restore BAAA to her rightful owner, which is you, but ...Lindy Ok, now that you said that I don't want to take BAAA away from her new family.Virginia Well, maybe it could be a joint custody situation, you know? Let's be open-minded to different family structures.Lindy That's true. You're so right. God, that was very regressive of me.Virginia But yes, I hope that you can be reunited. LindyThank you.VirginiaAlong with the story of BAAA, you talk about many vulnerable things in the book. One of them that I know our listeners will be really moved by is your exploration of having an eating disorder and starting treatment for that. It was just so relatable. Like when you wrote about reading through the list of nutritionists from your doctor, and only one doesn't mention weight loss. When you're looking for eating disorder treatment! Lindy It's a snapshot of what most people are going to the nutritionist for: weight loss. That's what everyone's looking for, in every direction. So, I get it, but it was very frustrating. Luckily, the one lady that wasn't weight loss focused is the best person I've ever met, so it all worked out.Virginia What was it like working with someone who was like, "Actually, you don't need to lose weight. You need to eat more food?"Lindy It's been amazing. I mean, it's frustrating, because you still have the diet culture voice inside your head, even if you've done as much healing as you thought was humanly possible. I realized once I started working with her that some tiny part of my brain had been like, Once you see the nutritionist, maybe you will lose weight. Not that that was my goal. But there's always this little, dee de dee dee, then your life will be perfect. It's really hard to deprogram that. Grace, my now therapist, just kept being like, "Your job is to eat whatever you want all the time." And I'd be like, "Yeah, but what if I want vegetables?" She was like, "That's fine, but you're not allowed to not eat candy." And I was like, "But don't you want to give me some kind of guideline for how to be perfect?" And she was like, "No, that's disordered."Virginia That’s the opposite of what we're doing now.Lindy I find myself still searching for someone to tell me how to live so that I don't have to figure it out. Unfortunately, the answer is listening to your body and learning how to know yourself. So I'm doing that instead. VirginiaShe said joyfully.LindyAgain, I'm not trying to lose weight. I'm not on a weight loss journey. I think after so many years of living untreated in diet culture, I don't have any kind of a natural relationship with food. And it is a lot of work to figure out how to listen to my body. So even from a non-diet culture perspective, I was hoping that some part of this therapy was going to be her handing me a worksheet. Even if the worksheet said "One piece of cake for breakfast, one piece of cake for lunch, one piece of cake for dinner." I just was like, Making the choices is triggering to me.Virginia The decision fatigue! It's a lot of work, every meal. I have to, again, make the decision to eat and what to eat and how. All day long we do this??Lindy I have to do the grocery shopping?Also, when you've been shamed your whole life for those choices, making the choices is stressful. Now I feel like, either direction, I'm doing something bad. I'm either doing diet culture by choosing to have a salad, even if I want one. I still am like, Am I betraying myself? Or the opposite, if I choose to eat something sort of indulgent or whatever, then I'm doing fat person. Which is fine.Virginia You have to negotiate it in both directions.Lindy Yes! Except then I'm like, Well, but if I'm eating something decadent, is that just reactionary? Because I know I'm not supposed to do diet culture. So then do I even want this ice cream? I'm still, to this day, fairly lost. I'm way better than I was five years ago, and I've definitely figured some stuff out, which is just having routines. It's like, I have oatmeal. Done.Virginia One less decision.Lindy In the morning, I have oatmeal, and then I have certain staple things I keep around. I'm so angry that my head has been messed with to this degree. You know what I mean? Virginia Yes. And you were trying to navigate recovery as a public fat person, which brings a whole other layer. I have had a tiny fraction of what you experience, and it's bananas. The amount the world feels like they can engage with our bodies and have opinions and theories and comments and all of that. You doing it, especially when you first started doing it, was such a gift to the rest of us. You were really on the front lines. Lindy It's really hard, and that's the thing that I write about in the book. Obviously, the mean people are the worst. But there's a way that my fans feel an ownership over me that is a little bit ... not claustrophobic - I appreciate it, it's very loving - but also, I feel surveilled. I'm definitely being watched. People notice if my body changes, and that is confining in a certain way. It's hard to navigate, because you don't get to just have a private relationship with your body, which, to be fair, I voluntarily gave up because I said "I'm going to present my body for public conversation," basically.Virginia I don't know that we ever have informed consent around that though. I don't think you could have known when you decided to publish that first essay in The Stranger what this would be like. You know what I mean? I don't think you could wrap your head around where it would have gone.Lindy I can't blame the fans, especially since so much of this stuff was grassroots on the Internet. I used to be a fat girl lurking on Tumblr, taking from other fat people who came before me. I don't want to build a wall around myself and say, "No, you can't look at me, and you can't feel anything about my body, and you can't have any opinions or connection to it," because I did the same thing. But navigating of it is hard, and complicated.Virginia It is complicated. I can understand, especially when navigating your own recovery and wanting to make choices for yourself, but feeling like people will feel let down. It's complicated. We all do it with other public figures all the time. Lindy Oh, I don't like it when famous fat people lose weight. I don't trust it at all, but I don't say anything about it. You know what I mean?Virginia At least, not super publicly. Maybe in my own head.Lindy Just to the group chat. "Oh, ozempic, got another one?" I'll send that text. I do have this fear that if eating disorder treatment and recovery did cause me to lose weight, because I changed my relationship with food in such a way that my body changes—which I don't know if that would happen or not, there's no way to know, probably not—but if it did happen, it's so scary to think that I could be perceived as having betrayed people, or that I'm one of those people that I look at and send to the group chat and say, "Oh boy." Which is why I shouldn't do that.Virginia Sure, fine. Now that you're putting it that way, I suppose.Lindy It depends on the person. Look, just don't take me on your weight loss journey. I don't need to hear about your journey.Virginia That's really the key to me. People do what they do with their bodies, and that's fine, but I really appreciate it when a celebrity says nothing. If you start justifying and explaining it, odds are that you're causing harm to somebody.LindyIt's not that hard to not say anything.Virginia Yeah, just have your body. That's fine. You do you.Related to people dissecting your body online, another experience we unfortunately share is having our personal lives written about and commented on online, particularly in regards to marriage. In my case, my divorce. It made the Daily Mail, which is a real point of pride for me. You write really candidly about your marriage with Aham in this book and there are many difficult parts. Did it feel like you were taking some control back over the narrative to write about it? How do you feel about how people might react once they read what you've written?Lindy I wanted to take control of the narrative. People react so intensely to non-monogamy. It's very scary to a lot of people, and I get it. You're sort of promised an equation for happiness, which is one…
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