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The Argument

Has affirmative action gone too far? Should we abolish internet anonymity? Is liberal hypocrisy worth defending?

Welcome to The Argument, a weekly podcast from Jerusalem Demsas and Matthew Yglesias, where two friends argue about politics, policy, and whatever else is on their minds.

This is a debate show for people who want the nitty-gritty without the typical screaming matches or softball interviews. Each week, one host argues a distinctive point of view — armed with facts and research, not just pundit bluster — and then Matthew and Jerusalem hash it out.

New episodes post every Thursday.

You can find The Argument on Substack, YouTube, and wherever you get your podcasts.

www.theargumentmag.com

Latest Episodes:

Best Of: Liberalism Under Pressure w/ Ezra Klein, Matt Yglesias, & Derek Thompson Dec 29, 2025

Show notes

At the end of the year, I wanted to revisit our very first podcast conversation with some of my favorite liberal journalists.

In our very first live show in Washington, D.C., Derek Thompson, Ezra Klein, and Matt Yglesias joined me for a disagreement-ridden conversation to tape the first episode of our new video podcast, The Argument.

We talk about why Matt spends so much of his time arguing with the left, whether Ezra thinks it matters “who shot first” as the right ramps up its attacks, why Derek picked a fight with the New Antitrust Movement, and much, much more.

The Argument is a podcast dedicated to honest, unflinching debate about the biggest questions facing democracy, culture, and our future. As the host, I will bring together voices across the political spectrum to argue, challenge, and persuade. Each episode is a space where disagreements are confronted directly with clarity and conviction, rather than hidden or shouted down.

Editor’s note: This episode was taped on Sept. 5, before the assassination of Charlie Kirk and the escalating threats from the Trump administration.

For a full-length, ad-free version of our video podcast, you can become a paid subscriber. You can watch the full version with ads for free by subscribing to our YouTube channel here. The audio version is also available wherever you get your podcasts.

Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | YouTube | Overcast | Pocket Casts

Articles discussed:

“Messing With Texas: How Big Homebuilders and Private Equity Made American Cities Unaffordable” by Basel Musharbash
“The Anti-Abundance Critique on Housing Is Dead Wrong” by Derek Thompson
“How do we live with each other?” by Jerusalem Demsas
“How to Blow Up a Planet” by Trevor Jackson
“What I Got Wrong About DEI” by Eugenia Cheng

Support the Show: Get a full transcript, show notes, and an ad-free version: TheArgumentMag.com

New episodes every Thursday—subscribe so you never miss a debate!

The Argument is produced by Justin Zuckerman, fact-checked by Eli Richman, with music by Breakmaster Cylinder and art by Ben Tousley.

How Liberal Elite Failure Fueled Far-Right Populism Dec 22, 2025

Show notes

Why is far-right populism on the rise? Political scientist Gabriele Gratton has a controversial theory: For decades, technocrats moved policy decisions — on austerity, climate, and more – away from the realm of mass politics and toward independent authorities, courts, and experts. The result? A populist backlash fueled by the desire to reassert control over policy.

In Gratton's telling, the populist backlash isn't irrational; it's a democratic response to elite failure. But his prescription isn't to abandon liberalism. This conversation explores how we got here and whether liberal democracy can course-correct before it's too late.

The Argument is a podcast dedicated to honest, unflinching debate about the biggest questions facing democracy, culture, and our future. As the host, Jerusalem Demsas brings together voices across the political spectrum to argue, challenge, and persuade. Each episode is a space where disagreements are confronted directly, with clarity and conviction, rather than hidden or shouted down.

We want to hear from you! If you liked the episode, disagreed with it, or have a guest or episode suggestion, reach out at podcast@theargumentmag.com.

For a full-length, ad-free version of our podcast, you can become a paid subscriber. You can watch the full version with ads for free by subscribing to our YouTube channel. The audio version is also available wherever you get your podcasts.

Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | YouTube | Overcast | Pocket Casts

The Argument podcast with Jerusalem Demsas is available wherever you get podcasts. New shows drop every Monday. If you like the show, leave a comment and ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen.

Articles, studies, and posts referenced in the episode can be found on our website.

Support the Show: Get a full transcript, show notes, and an ad-free version: TheArgumentMag.com

New episodes every Thursday—subscribe so you never miss a debate!

The Argument is produced by Justin Zuckerman, fact-checked by Eli Richman, with music by Breakmaster Cylinder and art by Ben Tousley.

America’s Reading Crisis: What Mississippi Got Right Dec 15, 2025

Show notes

America's literacy problem is a policy choice. As schools shifted away from phonics toward guessing-based instruction, a generation of kids paid the price. But a quiet reversal is underway in an unexpected place. Mississippi rebuilt reading instruction from the ground up and saw real gains. If it worked there, why are other states so resistant to copying it?

We want to hear from you! If you liked the episode, disagreed with it, or have a guest or episode suggestion, reach out at jerusalem@theargumentmag.com.

Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | YouTube | Overcast | Pocket Casts

Articles, studies, and posts referenced in the episode can be found on our website.

Support the Show: Get a full transcript, show notes, and an ad-free version: TheArgumentMag.com

New episodes every Thursday—subscribe so you never miss a debate!

The Argument is produced by Justin Zuckerman, fact-checked by Eli Richman, with music by Breakmaster Cylinder and art by Ben Tousley.

Why We Feel Screwed: Immigration, Growth, and the Zero-Sum Mindset Dec 08, 2025

Show notes

Why do so many people believe immigrants are screwing them even when the evidence says otherwise? Economist Sahil Chinoy joins host Jerusalem Demsas to break down his massive 20,000-person study on zero-sum thinking — the worldview that assumes someone else’s gain must be your loss.

They dig into how family histories of enslavement and immigration shape attitudes today, why young Americans are so much more zero-sum than older generations, and how economic stagnation fuels a sense of scarcity. They also explore why some policy fights (housing, redistribution, trade) trigger zero-sum instincts more than others, and what can actually shift those beliefs. If you want to understand the psychology and politics behind America’s “fixed-pie” debates, this episode is a must-listen.

We want to hear from you! If you liked the episode, disagreed with it, or have a guest or episode suggestion, reach out at jerusalem@theargumentmag.com.

Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | YouTube | Overcast | Pocket Casts

Articles, studies, and posts referenced in the episode can be found on our website.

Support the Show: Get a full transcript, show notes, and an ad-free version: TheArgumentMag.com

New episodes every Thursday—subscribe so you never miss a debate!

The Argument is produced by Justin Zuckerman, fact-checked by Eli Richman, with music by Breakmaster Cylinder and art by Ben Tousley.

Is Inequality the Problem? Dec 01, 2025

Show notes

Rising income inequality hurts democracy, health, happiness, and basically anything you can think of … right?

Sociologist Lane Kenworthy doesn't think so. In his new book Is Inequality The Problem? Kenworthy argued that inequality is overrated as “the” cause of our problems — and discussed why the data pushes him toward a different set of priorities. Host Jerusalem Demsas is skeptical. Together, they dig into happiness, health, and populism, and they discuss why expanding the social welfare state might matter more than obsessing over the 1%.

We want to hear from you! If you liked the episode, disagreed with it, or have a guest or episode suggestion, reach out at podcast@theargumentmag.com.

Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | YouTube | Overcast | Pocket Casts

Articles, studies, and posts referenced in the episode can be found on our website.

Support the Show: Get a full transcript, show notes, and an ad-free version: TheArgumentMag.com

New episodes every Thursday—subscribe so you never miss a debate!

The Argument is produced by Justin Zuckerman, fact-checked by Eli Richman, with music by Breakmaster Cylinder and art by Ben Tousley.

The Climate Movement’s Biggest Miscalculation (with Robinson Meyer) Nov 24, 2025

Show notes

Climate activists spent a decade arguing that if Democrats passed a huge climate bill, created green jobs, and centered “climate justice,” voters—especially the young—would reward them.

They got their bill: the Inflation Reduction Act, the biggest climate law in U.S. history. Then youth support for Democrats, Republicans tore key pieces out all while red states took the money and blue states made it almost impossible to build wind, solar, or transmission.

In this episode, Jerusalem Demsas talks with Rob Meyer, founding editor of Heatmap News, about what the last few years have revealed about the U.S.' climate politics.

We want to hear from you! If you liked the episode, disagreed with it, or have a guest or episode suggestion, reach out at jerusalem@theargumentmag.com.

For a full-length, ad-free version of our podcast, you can become a paid subscriber. You can watch the full version with ads for free by subscribing to our YouTube channel here. The audio version is also available wherever you get your podcasts.

Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | YouTube | Overcast | Pocket Casts

Articles, studies, and posts referenced in the episode can be found on our website at https://www.theargumentmag.com/s/the-argument-podcast

Support the Show: Get a full transcript, show notes, and an ad-free version: TheArgumentMag.com

New episodes every Thursday—subscribe so you never miss a debate!

The Argument is produced by Justin Zuckerman, fact-checked by Eli Richman, with music by Breakmaster Cylinder and art by Ben Tousley.

How Silicon Valley Became MAGA-Curious Nov 17, 2025

Show notes

Silicon Valley’s sharp right turn didn’t come out of nowhere. Former tech worker and current tech writer Jasmine Sun walks us through how a once-solidly liberal sector became MAGA-curious.

We talk about:

The rise of “effective accelerationism” (E/acc)
Why parts of the tech elite feel betrayed by the Biden administration
How backlash to regulation, internal employee revolts, crypto crackdowns, and AI safety debates pushed founders toward Trumpworld

Sun maps the ideological split between the engineers who see themselves as the last “live players” in American society and the regulators who believe they’re the only ones standing between the public and untested technology.

This episode is also about the culture of progress. Host Jerusalem Demsas and Sun, who both attended Progress Conference in October, share their observations about the emerging populist backlash to AI, the failure of the DOGE experiment, Chinese AI and manufacturing strategies, and the widening value gap between tech elites and the rest of the country.

We want to hear from you! If you liked the episode, disagreed with it, or have a guest or episode suggestion, reach out at jerusalem@theargumentmag.com.

Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | YouTube | Overcast | Pocket Casts

Articles, studies, and posts referenced in the episode can be found on our website at https://www.theargumentmag.com/s/the-argument-podcast

Support the Show: Get a full transcript, show notes, and an ad-free version: TheArgumentMag.com

New episodes every Thursday—subscribe so you never miss a debate!

The Argument is produced by Justin Zuckerman, fact-checked by Eli Richman, with music by Breakmaster Cylinder and art by Ben Tousley.

Arguing the Politics of Climate with Bill McKibben Nov 10, 2025

Show notes

What if climate policy can’t survive voters, courts, and NIMBYs?

Bill McKibben is a pioneering climate writer and activist whose books and campaigns helped mainstream the case for rapidly replacing fossil fuels with clean energy. On today's episode, McKibben and host, Jerusalem Demsas, argue about the politics and economics of climate and discuss his new book Here Comes The Sun.

McKibben's case: sun, wind, and batteries are now the cheapest new power on earth and China is sprinting ahead while America stalls. But Demsas is skeptical about McKibben's political strategy, particularly when it comes to the very live fight in Congress over permitting reform.

They get into:

Messaging that wins (“energy” vs. “climate”)
The politics of transmission
Carbon capture: necessary for industry or a costly detour?
Why climate activists are hostile to technological progress
The global picture: balcony solar in Utah, village microgrids in Africa, and cheap panels vs. imported fuels

We want to hear from you! If you liked the episode, disagreed with it, or have a guest or episode suggestion, reach out at jerusalem@theargumentmag.com.

Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | YouTube | Overcast | Pocket Casts

Articles, studies, and posts referenced in the episode can be found on our website at https://www.theargumentmag.com/s/the-argument-podcast

Support the Show: Get a full transcript, show notes, and an ad-free version: TheArgumentMag.com

New episodes every Thursday—subscribe so you never miss a debate!

The Argument is produced by Justin Zuckerman, fact-checked by Eli Richman, with music by Breakmaster Cylinder and art by Ben Tousley.

Why Free Speech Is Losing on the Left and the Right Nov 03, 2025

Show notes

Why is free speech losing ground? From crackdowns on immigrants, protesters, and law firms to campus speech codes, social-media “jawboning,” and government pressure – we're witnessing the erosion of the free speech culture that once defined American democracy.

Greg Lukianoff is the president of the Foundation for Individual Rights and Expression (FIRE), a free speech organization. In this episode, he and Jerusalem discuss why defending free speech always means defending the unpopular, how bureaucratic cowardice and partisan outrage feed each other, and what a real revival of liberal tolerance would look like.

We want to hear from you! If you liked the episode, disagreed with it, or have a guest or episode suggestion, reach out at jerusalem@theargumentmag.com.

Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | YouTube | Overcast | Pocket Casts

Articles, studies, and posts referenced in the episode can be found on our website at https://www.theargumentmag.com/s/the-argument-podcast

Support the Show: Get a full transcript, show notes, and an ad-free version: TheArgumentMag.com

New episodes every Thursday—subscribe so you never miss a debate!

The Argument is produced by Justin Zuckerman, fact-checked by Eli Richman, with music by Breakmaster Cylinder and art by Ben Tousley.

Trump's Tariffs, Explained Oct 27, 2025

Show notes

Economics writer Joey Politano joins host Jerusalem Demsas to explain the great tariff comeback story. From bananas and coffee to washing machines and Christmas ornaments, Trump’s new trade war is making life more expensive – but why?

They unpack how tariffs actually work, why Trump’s obsession with them never went away, and what it says about America’s growing economic nationalism. Plus: why are politicians obsessed with reviving a 1950s manufacturing economy and can tariffs even make that happen?

The Argument is a podcast dedicated to honest, unflinching debate about the biggest questions facing democracy, culture, and our future. As the host, Jerusalem Demsas will bring together voices across the political spectrum to argue, challenge, and persuade. Each episode is a space where disagreements are confronted directly, with clarity and conviction, rather than hidden or shouted down.

We want to hear from you! If you liked the episode, disagreed with it, or have a guest or episode suggestion, reach out at jerusalem@theargumentmag.com.

Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | YouTube | Overcast | Pocket Casts

Articles, studies, and posts referenced in the episode can be found on our website at https://www.theargumentmag.com/s/the-argument-podcast

Support the Show: Get a full transcript, show notes, and an ad-free version: TheArgumentMag.com

New episodes every Thursday—subscribe so you never miss a debate!

The Argument is produced by Justin Zuckerman, fact-checked by Eli Richman, with music by Breakmaster Cylinder and art by Ben Tousley.