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The Argument

Has affirmative action gone too far? Should we abolish internet anonymity? Is liberal hypocrisy worth defending?

Welcome to The Argument, a weekly podcast from Jerusalem Demsas and Matthew Yglesias, where two friends argue about politics, policy, and whatever else is on their minds.

This is a debate show for people who want the nitty-gritty without the typical screaming matches or softball interviews. Each week, one host argues a distinctive point of view — armed with facts and research, not just pundit bluster — and then Matthew and Jerusalem hash it out.

New episodes post every Thursday.

You can find The Argument on Substack, YouTube, and wherever you get your podcasts.

www.theargumentmag.com

Latest Episodes:

Derek Thompson on the antisocial century Aug 27, 2026

Show notes

Americans are spending more time alone than ever before. Derek Thompson, author of "The Anti-Social Century" and co-author of Abundance, joins Jerusalem Demsas and Matthew Yglesias to argue that this isn't loneliness in the traditional sense. This new brand of loneliness is a choice, and Derek fears it's spreading across the world. Jerusalem presses him on whether the data actually supports the trend, and Matt talks about how social technology has helped him stay connected to friends.

Plus a peer review of a new paper on joint custody after divorce in Sweden, and why both hosts are skeptical of its headline finding.

(00:00) Why Derek Thompson is obsessed with loneliness
(05:33) Americans are choosing to be alone
(12:33) The difference between being alone and being lonely
(17:48) The studies that show forced socializing works
(32:29) Are guilty pleasures a modern phenomenon
(34:35) Why English-speaking countries are lonelier
(43:10) Is American happiness actually declining?
(47:01) Matt's case that phones make him less lonely
(52:30) Social fitness: socializing as exercise
(59:14) Weakness of the will and winter camping videos
(01:02:02) Peer review: How joint custody affects parents and kids

Support the Show: Get a full transcript, show notes, and an ad-free version: TheArgumentMag.com

New episodes every Thursday—subscribe so you never miss a debate!

The Argument is produced by Justin Zuckerman, fact-checked by Eli Richman, with music by Breakmaster Cylinder and art by Ben Tousley.

Are elites just whoever you don’t like? Aug 20, 2026

Show notes

Who actually counts as an elite in America?

The Argument ran its own poll on elite perception, and the results scramble a lot of conventional wisdom. Billionaires and celebrities are the only groups a majority of Americans call elite. College professors, journalists, and people with graduate degrees barely register. Jerusalem Demsas and Matthew Yglesias dig into what that means for the anti-elite politics of both parties, and why Matt thinks the poll is an overwhelming win for the Bernie Sanders crowd. Matt even takes the poll on elites himself to see where his views match up.

Plus a peer review of a new paper on Ivy League admissions and elite networks.

(00:00) The Argument's poll on who counts as elite
(02:11) Celebrities, by definition, are elite
(10:01) Poll results, Bernie Sanders, and Chris Rufo
(21:26) Is the turn against feminism real?
(34:45) Hollywood, Green Book, and cultural power
(42:30) Career success vs. marriage and kids
(53:17) Progressive incoherence on population and climate
(01:00:23) Nobody thinks politicians are elite
(01:02:23) Peer review: Ivy League admissions and elite networks

Support the Show: Get a full transcript, show notes, and an ad-free version: TheArgumentMag.com

New episodes every Thursday—subscribe so you never miss a debate!

The Argument is produced by Justin Zuckerman, fact-checked by Eli Richman, with music by Breakmaster Cylinder and art by Ben Tousley.

What's wrong with Bowling Alone? Aug 13, 2026

Show notes

Is there really a loneliness crisis?

Jerusalem Demsas and Matt Yglesias read Robert Putnam's Bowling Alone, the 2000 classic that diagnosed America's collapse in community life. They argue about how bad the loneliness problem really is today, and whether Putnam's diagnosis about the loss of associational life actually holds up. They also get into Putnam's uneasiness about telling people to go to church, whether social capital really explains crime and civic health, what happened to the arguments the left already won, how much television and phones are to blame, and more.

(00:00) Why we're reading Bowling Alone in 2026
(05:14) Bowling alone is more concerned about church attendance
(12:08) Does social capital explain anything?
(17:00) Television, the internet, and the usual suspects
(27:26) How American associational life reorganized
(36:53) Has cooperation actually declined?
(43:57) Voting, civic engagement, and what counts
(55:57) The arguments the left already won
(01:05:21) Why do young people who are doing fine feel so bad?
(01:12:58) "Get off your phones" and other bad prescriptions

Support the Show: Get a full transcript, show notes, and an ad-free version: TheArgumentMag.com

New episodes every Thursday—subscribe so you never miss a debate!

The Argument is produced by Justin Zuckerman, fact-checked by Eli Richman, with music by Breakmaster Cylinder and art by Ben Tousley.

#MeToo didn’t go far enough Aug 06, 2026

Show notes

Many people say the #MeToo movement went too far. Jerusalem Demsas disagrees: she thinks it didn't go far enough. Matt Yglesias wants to talk about what the movement actually was, and worries about the risks of a leaderless movement without clear standards. They get into the difference between social and legal standards for misbehavior, why the Aziz Ansari story split the discourse, and what vibe shift actually took place.

Plus a peer review of a new paper on migration, gentrification, and the people who prefer to move to better neighborhoods rather than fixing the ones they're in.

(00:00) Jerusalem's hot take: #MeToo didn't go far enough
(04:36) What Matt Yglesias thinks
(08:24) The "abolish police" problem for #MeToo
(09:54) Feminists using culture instead of the legal system
(21:11) Aziz Ansari and unfair consequences
(27:49) Social accountability vs. legal accountability
(35:05) The gender gap on #MeToo
(47:49) The Srinivasan essay and what #MeToo really was
(01:02:52) Peer review: Move or fix the neighborhood

Support the Show: Get a full transcript, show notes, and an ad-free version: TheArgumentMag.com

New episodes every Thursday—subscribe so you never miss a debate!

Once a month, The Argument podcast does a book club episode. This month we are reading Bowling Alone by Robert Putnam. Read along if you are interested, and comment with any questions/ideas you'd like us to explore!

The Argument is produced by Justin Zuckerman, fact-checked by Eli Richman, with music by Breakmaster Cylinder and art by Ben Tousley.

You don't actually want to buy a house Jul 30, 2026

Show notes

Most Americans still see buying a home as the ultimate financial goal, but Jerusalem Demsas thinks homeownership is overrated. Matt Yglesias, a proud homeowner, disagrees. They get into why the American Dream might be a bad financial deal, what's really driving people's demand for stability, and whether the Singapore model has something to teach us.

Plus a peer review of a new paper using Swedish lottery data to ask what money actually does to marriages.

(00:00) Homeownership is overrated
(04:42) The "only path to wealth" myth
(10:16) The home equity piggy bank
(17:25) The illiquidity problem
(22:21) Homeownership brain
(27:30) What everyone actually wants: stability
(32:57) Rent control is back
(35:28) A Singapore-style savings idea
(45:17) The YIMBY case for more homeowners
(46:45) Peer review: Lottery winners and marriage

Support the Show: Get a full transcript, show notes, and an ad-free version: TheArgumentMag.com

New episodes every Thursday—subscribe so you never miss a debate!

The Argument is produced by Justin Zuckerman, fact-checked by Eli Richman, with music by Breakmaster Cylinder and art by Ben Tousley.

Why AI might not replace us after all Jul 23, 2026

Show notes

Most Americans fear that AI is about to cause widespread job losses, so Matt Yglesias and Jerusalem Demsas brought in their first-ever guest, Timothy B. Lee of the Understanding AI newsletter, to break it all down. Matt thinks a white-collar wipeout is coming. Jerusalem and Tim think we've got enough time to adapt.

Plus, a peer review on a new paper about the effects of mixed-use zoning.

(00:00) Our first guest: Tim Lee on AI and jobs
(02:27) Matt's case for the white-collar wipeout
(05:43) Jobs are bundles of tasks
(08:26) The O-ring theory: why one human still matters
(18:02) Tim's answer: it's all about timescales
(21:27) Chess, Starbucks, and the human preference problem
(24:28) The protectionism scramble: gas pumps and self-driving trucks
(30:47) The "canaries in the coal mine" study on young workers
(38:45) Channeling 2015 Matt: just run a hotter economy
(49:30) Peer review: What's actually wrong with zoning?

Support the Show: Get a full transcript, show notes, and an ad-free version: TheArgumentMag.com

New episodes every Thursday—subscribe so you never miss a debate!

The Argument is produced by Justin Zuckerman, fact-checked by Eli Richman, with music by Breakmaster Cylinder and art by Ben Tousley.

What AOC and Bernie Sanders get wrong about the oligarchy Jul 16, 2026

Show notes

Bernie Sanders and Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez have been packing arenas on their "Fighting Oligarchy" tour, but Matt Yglesias doesn't think the oligarchy is real. Jerusalem Demsas is more sympathetic: donors really do get access that regular people can't, and the discomfort with that is about democracy, not policy outcomes. But the discourse frustrates her too, since "the oligarchy" shifts from a cabal of billionaires to the entire top 10 percent, depending on the argument. They also get into why the study Bernie cites doesn't show what he thinks it shows, how the Republican donor class spent a fortune failing to stop Trump, Mark Zuckerberg's gold-chain era, and the self-interested class that actually has captured American government: homeowners.

Plus a peer review of a paper showing that immigration lowers mortality among the elderly, and what AI does to that argument.

(00:00) Is the oligarchy real?
(03:22) What donors actually buy: access and face time
(12:52) Mark Zuckerberg, the most destructive billionaire
(17:30) Citizens United and the money-buys-elections theory
(21:51) Tom Steyer and the billionaires who lose
(27:18) The real cabal: homeowners
(34:29) The study Bernie cites (and what it actually shows)
(41:04) Why small-d democracy is underrated
(43:17) Money, media, and public reasoning
(53:05) Peer review: Does immigration help the elderly live longer?

Support the Show: Get a full transcript, show notes, and an ad-free version: TheArgumentMag.com

New episodes every Thursday—subscribe so you never miss a debate!

The Argument is produced by Justin Zuckerman, fact-checked by Eli Richman, with music by Breakmaster Cylinder and art by Ben Tousley.

Was Jane Jacobs the first NIMBY? Jul 09, 2026

Show notes

For this month's book club, Jerusalem Demsas and Matt Yglesias read The Death and Life of Great American Cities, the 1961 classic that changed how everyone thinks about neighborhoods. Rereading it as YIMBYs, they find a book that's right about what makes a street feel alive and wrong about almost everything that followed: Jacobs's push to devolve power to the neighborhood level became the veto that now blocks new housing everywhere. They also get into why Jacobs ignored the economics of cities, what Austin gets right that Greenwich Village lost, and the one place Jerusalem agrees with Jacobs completely: city parks are overrated.

Plus a peer review of a new paper on how the typewriter transformed women's economic lives.

(00:00) Rereading the most famous book about cities
(06:00) Greenwich Village, gay bars, and what made her neighborhood special
(15:23) Jacobs's four principles: mixed uses, old buildings, density, and small blocks
(23:17) The blind spot: cities are economic engines
(27:47) How Jacobs's victory became the NIMBY veto
(36:03) Height limits and what Americans actually want
(44:40) The zoning contradiction at the heart of the book
(46:18) It's the people, not the buildings
(49:58) Montreal, Berlin, and why isn't everyone moving to Philadelphia?
(55:21) What would Jane Jacobs think of Austin?
(01:01:15) The case against city parks
(01:16:41) Peer review: How the typewriter changed women's lives

Support the Show: Get a full transcript, show notes, and an ad-free version: TheArgumentMag.com

New episodes every Thursday—subscribe so you never miss a debate!

The Argument is produced by Justin Zuckerman, fact-checked by Eli Richman, with music by Breakmaster Cylinder and art by Ben Tousley.

Is assimilation racist? Jul 02, 2026

Show notes

Should immigrants have to assimilate? Jerusalem Demsas and Matt Yglesias take on the growing idea that immigrants shouldn't have to assimilate to belong in America. Jerusalem, the daughter of immigrants, disagrees, and makes the case that assimilation is not only good for the country but that immigrants largely self-select for liking America. The conversation turns to patriotism, and why Jerusalem thinks the left has ceded the American flag to the right by defining the country entirely by its worst chapters.

Plus a peer review of a buzzy new paper claiming the iPhone is responsible for a significant decline in birth rates, and why they both think the number is too wild to be true.

(00:00) Should immigrants have to assimilate?
(08:24) Why Europe's assimilation panic doesn't fit America
(14:21) Assimilate to what? The liberal democracy line
(22:59) The "emerging Democratic majority" own-goal
(30:39) Cultivating "Americanness" and bilingual education
(39:09) Teaching the norms: the Germany shower story
(45:14) Why America beats Europe at assimilation
(50:10) Reclaiming patriotism for the left
(57:05) Don't Tread on Me and bringing back the Pledge
(01:01:20) Peer Review: Is the iPhone birth control?

Support the Show: Get a full transcript, show notes, and an ad-free version: TheArgumentMag.com

New episodes every Thursday—subscribe so you never miss a debate!

The Argument is produced by Justin Zuckerman, fact-checked by Eli Richman, with music by Breakmaster Cylinder and art by Ben Tousley.

The Biden legacy: A ranking of failures Jun 25, 2026

Show notes

The Bidens are back in the news, thanks to Jill Biden’s new book and Joe’s apparent difficulties raising money for his presidential library. So Jerusalem Demsas and Matthew Yglesias do the thing the party keeps avoiding: they rank the worst parts of Joe Biden's presidency, from the economy and inflation to immigration, Israel and Gaza, the Kamala Harris pick, and the decision to run for reelection at all.

Plus a peer review of a new paper on why marriage is collapsing for non-college Americans, and why it isn't the girlbosses.

(0:00) Why Democrats are distancing from Joe Biden
(7:25) Kamala Harris: could Democrats have replaced her in 2024?
(15:00) Biden's cabinet and the identity politics trap
(25:00) Bidenomics: how Elizabeth Warren's staffers took over
(35:14) Biden's border crisis: why the White House ignored it
(45:00) Israel-Gaza: the war splitting the Democratic Party
(55:00) Why Israel dominates every political conversation
(01:05:00) How grievance against Obama shaped Biden's White House
(01:10:25) Peer review: why marriage rates are collapsing in America

Support the Show: Get a full transcript, show notes, and an ad-free version: TheArgumentMag.com

New episodes every Thursday—subscribe so you never miss a debate!

The Argument is produced by Justin Zuckerman, fact-checked by Eli Richman, with music by Breakmaster Cylinder and art by Ben Tousley.

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