So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast

Latest Episodes:

Ep. 205: An anarchist's perspective with Michael Malice Feb 01, 2024

Show notes

Michael Malice is a self-described "anarchist without adjectives" and is the author of several books, including most recently "The White Pill: A Tale of Good and Evil." He is also the host of the podcast, "YOUR WELCOME," and the subject of the biographical comic book, "Ego & Hubris: The Michael Malice Story."

Michael joins us today to explain why he hates the term "free speech," and gives his thoughts on McCarthyism, anarchism, Twitter, and more.

Timestamps

0:00 Introduction

0:46 Who is Michael Malice?

6:45 What is an anarchist without adjectives?

7:26 The definition of anarchism/prominent anarchists

8:01 How do we have free speech in an anarchist society?

16:54 The McCarthy Era

20:38 Students for Justice in Palestine

24:57 Should we advocate for a culture of free speech?

30:44 "Hitman"

34:01 What is the core right under an anarchist system?

36:26 Elon, Twitter, and free speech

44:38 Emma Goldman and McCarthyism

55:27 Cancel culture

1:01:37 From Emma Goldman to Solzhenitsyn

1:05:31 What is it like to live under an authoritarian regime?

1:12:23 The war in Ukraine

1:15:24 Outro

Show Notes

"Dear Reader: The Unauthorized Autobiography of Kim Jong Il" by Michael Malice

"Hitman: A Technical Manual for Independent Contractors" by Rex Feral (pseud.)

"Khrushchev's Secret Speech" (Encyclopedia Britannica entry)

"My Disillusionment in Russia" by Emma Goldman

"Schenck v United States" (1919)

"The Anarchist Handbook" by Michael Malice

"The Gulag Archipelago" by Alexandr Solzhenitsyn

"The New Right: A Journey to the Fringe of American Politics" by Michael Malice

Episode Transcript

Ep. 204: "Liar in a Crowded Theater" with Jeff Kosseff Jan 18, 2024

Show notes

Jeff Kosseff is an associate professor of cybersecurity law in the United States Naval Academy's Cyber Science Department. He is the author of four books including his most recent, "Liar in a Crowded Theater: Freedom of Speech in a World of Misinformation." He has also written books about anonymous speech and Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act.

Timestamps

0:00 Introduction

2:30 Jeff's focus on the First Amendment

4:27 What is Section 230?

9:30 "Liar in a Crowded Theater"

16:27 What does the First Amendment say about lies?

19:35 What speech isn't protected?

21:27 The Eminem case

27:33 The Dominion lawsuit

38:44 "The United States of Anonymous"

46:39 The impact of age verification laws

49:43 "The Twenty-Six Words that Created the Internet"

58:40 What's next for Jeff?

1:01:35 Outro

Show Notes

Podcast Transcript

Brown v. Entertainment Merchants Association (2011)

FIRE's guide to Section 230

Nikki Haley on social media anonymity

Schenck v. United States (1917)

"The Twenty-Six Words That Created the Internet" by Jeff Kosseff

NBC News: "Judge allows lawsuit against Snap from relatives of dead children to move forward"

"The United States of Anonymous: How the First Amendment Shaped Online Speech" by Jeff Kosseff

United States v. Alvarez (2012)

Transcript

Ep. 203: 'Undefeated' with Coach Bill Courtney Jan 04, 2024

Show notes

Bill Courtney is an American football coach, entrepreneur, author, and the subject of the academy award winning 2011 documentary "Undefeated," which tells the story of Courtney leading a high school football team in an economically depressed area of Memphis, Tenn. to the playoffs.

Courtney is the host of the An Army of Normal Folks podcast, in which he shares stories of "ordinary people doing extraordinary things in and around their communities." His book "Against the Grain: A Coach's Wisdom on Character, Faith, Family, and Love" was released in 2014.

In this episode, we discuss coaching, the surprise success of "Undefeated," and how talking across lines of difference can heal a polarized America.

Chapters:

0:00 Introduction

2:25 Courtney's background

5:41 The influence of coaches

16:50 How Courtney ended up at Manassas High School

18:50 Coaching in difficult environments

24:30 Bridging divides

30:12 Forgiveness and grace

35:57 Daryl Davis

42:45 The "death spiral" of division and polarization

53:15 What happened to Manassas after Courtney left?

54:00 How did the filmmakers find Manassas?

59:21 Was the documentary good for the school and the kids?

Show Transcript

Ep. 202: The backpage.com saga Dec 21, 2023

Show notes

We're joined today by Elizabeth Nolan Brown, Robert Corn-Revere, and Ronnie London to discuss the history and verdict of the Backpage trial.

Backpage.com was an online classified advertising service founded in 2004. As a chief competitor to Craigslist, Backpage allowed users to post ads to categories such as personals, automotive, rentals, jobs and — most notably — adult services. In 2018, the website domain was seized by the FBI and its executives were prosecuted under federal prostitution and money laundering statutes. The trial concluded this year, resulting in the acquittal and convictions of several key executives.

Some First Amendment advocates are concerned that the Backpage case represents a "slippery slope" for the prosecution of protected speech and the rights of websites that host user-generated content.

Elizabeth Nolan Brown is a senior editor at Reason Magazine, where she has written about the Backpage case in detail.

Robert Corn-Revere is FIRE's chief counsel and a frequent guest of the show. Prior to joining FIRE, he represented Backpage in private practice.

Ronnie London is FIRE's general counsel and another frequent guest of the show. He also represented Backpage when he was in private practice prior to joining FIRE.

Timestamps

00:00 Introduction

06:55 The origins of Backpage

10:40 The significance of classified ads

14:52 Are escort ads protected?

19:07 Federal memos indicating Backpage fought child sex trafficking

23:19 Backpage content moderation

34:44 Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act

42:59 "De-banking" and NRA v. Vullo

52:24 The verdict

1:00:34 Could these convictions be overturned?

1:02:49 Outro

Show notes

Backpage.com url

2018 Backpage indictment

Elizabeth Nolan Brown's 2018 Backpage profile

Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act

NRA v. Vullo

The Travel Act

Ep. 201: Crisis on Campus - X Space recording Dec 12, 2023

Show notes

Nico and FIRE President & CEO Greg Lukianoff appeared on an X Space to discuss the fallout from the recent congressional hearing on anti-Semitism involving Harvard President Claudine Gay, MIT President Sally Kornbluth, and former Penn President Liz Magill, who resigned last week following backlash over her testimony.

Timestamps

0:00- Introduction

1:53 - History of FIRE

5:40 - MIT/Harvard/Penn presidents' testimony

11:35 - How speech codes are abused and conflict over the definition of genocide

14:05 - Penn "water buffalo" incident

16:20 - Will universities take the wrong lesson from these hearings?

21:25 - Double standards on campus

23:41 - Standards for hostile environment harassment, Title VI

26:43 - Is there a university that is currently handling the situation well?

31:19 - Institutional neutrality

38:29 - Guidance for donors

41:51 - The mission of the university

47:35 - College admissions and political litmus tests

51:20 - Faculty viewpoint diversity

57:17 - The path forward

Show notes

Show Transcript

The Canceling of the American Mind

Congressional hearing

FIRE's College Free Speech Rankings

Kalven Report

"Mighty Ira"

Richard Berthold ("anyone who can blow up the pentagon has my vote")

Student arrested for true threats at Cornell

Skokie case (neo Nazi protest in Illinois)

The Eternally Radical Idea (Greg's Substack)

Penn "water buffalo" case

Ep. 200: The state of free speech Nov 30, 2023

Show notes

We're joined by First Amendment attorney Marc Randazza and British journalist Brendan O'Neill to discuss the state of free speech in the United States and Europe.

Randazza is a First Amendment attorney and the managing partner at Randazza Legal Group. He has represented controversial figures throughout his career, including Alex Jones, Mike Cernovich, Chuck Johnson, and founder of the neo-nazi website the Daily Stormer, Andrew Anglin.

O'Neill is a British author and journalist who served as editor of Spiked from 2007 to September 2021 and is currently its chief political writer. His book, "Heretic's Manifesto," was released in June. He last appeared on the podcast on October 20, 2016.

Timestamps

0:00 Introduction

6:35 Do lawyers want to defend their enemies any more?

13:00 The oldest form of intolerance

17:19 Israel/Hamas and double standards

32:28 Hate speech laws in Ireland

51:35 Censorship from internet intermediaries

52:33 Debanking and corporate censorship

55:36 PruneYard case

1:01:44 Social media and the internet

1:05:18 The Digital Services Act

Show Notes

Show Transcript

Brendan O'Neill at Oxford Union

EU Digital Services Act

Proposed Irish hate speech bill

PruneYard Shopping Center v. Robins (1980)

Ep. 199: Israel, Hamas, and censorship at home Nov 09, 2023

Show notes

The FIRE team gets together to discuss the October 7 attacks in Israel and the resulting censorship on college campuses in the United States.

FIRE President and CEO Greg Lukianoff, Director of Campus Rights Advocacy Alex Morey, and General Counsel Ronnie London join host Nico Perrino for the conversation.

** We will conduct a listener survey starting Monday, Nov. 13. "So to Speak" listeners who subscribe to the show's email list will receive an email with a link to the survey. If you are not an email subscriber, you can subscribe at the bottom of sotospeakpodcast.com or by subscribing to the general FIRE email list at thefire.org and noting that you would also like to subscribe to the "So to Speak" list. We appreciate your feedback: It will help us improve the show!

Timestamps

5:13 - October 7 attacks on Israel

6:04 - Greg's initial thoughts

14:58 - Alex's initial thoughts

20:29 - Protected vs. unprotected expression

28:11 - Statements from donors, students and faculty; double standards

40:49 - Institutional neutrality and the Kalven Report

51:01 - Combating Anti-Semitism, the Daryl Davis example

54:46 - Students for Justice in Palestine

1:01:48 - Tearing down posters

Show Notes

Transcript
Harvard student group letter (The public-facing Google Doc that originally hosted the letter was deleted.)
Bill Ackman letter to Harvard
The Kalven Report
Daryl Davis
FIRE Letter to University of Florida President Ben Sasse re: Students for Justice in Palestine (after recording this episode, Brandeis University derecognized its campus chapter of SJP. Here is FIRE's letter to Brandeis).
Ron DeSantis, Tim Scott, and Marco Rubio call to revoke student visas
Trump Truth Social post calls for the expulsion of students who support Hamas

Ep. 198: 2023-24 Supreme Court Preview Oct 25, 2023

Show notes

The Supreme Court handed down some big First Amendment victories last term. What lies ahead for the Court in the upcoming term? FIRE Chief Counsel Robert Corn-Revere and FIRE General Counsel Ronnie London join the show to discuss important First Amendment cases that will be heard during the Court's 2023-24 session.

Timestamps:

0:00 - Introduction

1:47 - Murthy v. Missouri (government jawboning)

14:40 - NRA v. Vullo (government jawboning)

25:49 - NetChoice cases (social media regulation)

46:39 - Social media blocking cases

56:15 - Vidal v. Elster (trademark registration)

1:05:17 - Gonzalez v. Trevino (First Amendment retaliation)

Show Transcript:

https://www.thefire.org/research-learn/so-speak-podcast-transcript-2023-24-supreme-court-preview

Cases Discussed:

Murthy v. Missouri (government jawboning)

NetChoice, LLC v. Paxton (social media regulation)

Moody v. NetChoice, LLC (social media regulation)

O'Connor-Ratcliff v. Garnier (social media blocking)

Lindke v. Freed (social media blocking)

Vidal v. Elster (trademark registration)

Gonzalez v. Trevino (First Amendment retaliation)

Nat'l. Rifle Ass'n. of Am. v. Vullo (government jawboning)

Ep. 197 'Are cakes speech?' with Alliance Defending Freedom's Kristen Waggoner Oct 12, 2023

Show notes

President, CEO, and general counsel of the Alliance Defending Freedom, Kristen Waggoner, joins us for a discussion on freedom of speech and religious liberty. ADF has played various roles in 74 U.S. Supreme Court victories and since 2011, has won cases before the Court 15 times.

According to its website, "ADF is the world's largest legal organization committed to protecting religious freedom, free speech, marriage and family, parental rights, and the sanctity of life."

ADF has litigated many high profile and controversial free speech cases, including the recent Supreme Court case involving a web designer who didn't want to be compelled to design websites for same-sex weddings. Before that, ADF litigated the 2018 Masterpiece Cakeshop case, which involved a cake designer who similarly didn't want to provide his services for same-sex weddings on religious grounds.

After the initial conversation was recorded, The Washington Post and The New Yorker released articles critical of ADF. Nico and Kristen recorded an additional, brief conversation to address these articles. That is included at the end of the podcast.

Transcript:

https://www.thefire.org/research-learn/so-speak-podcast-transcript-are-cakes-speech-alliance-defending-freedoms-kristen

Timestamps:

0:43 - Introduction

6:16 - Kristen's path to ADF

12:54 - ADF's international team

14:20 - Pavi Rasanen controversy

19:24 - What does it mean to be a ministry?/blasphemy laws

22:56 - ADF's Supreme Court cases

26:58 - 303 Creative LLC v. Elenis

28:56 - Public accommodation laws/Masterpiece Cakeshop

40:40 - Pre-enforcement challenges