One Page Plan (How I Stay Motivated In Sales) | Selling Made Simple
Nov 29, 2022
Look, everyone’s felt unmotivated at work at one time or another. But salespeople in particular struggle with a lack of motivation the most. And if you’re not motivated to sell, you’re not motivated to earn.
So how do to stay on the course to success, even on those “blah” days? You sell by the numbers. You can start by creating your very own One-Page Plan. And today, I’ll show you how.
Which is why today we’re covering the best motivation system I’ve found to keep me going—selling by the numbers—breaking down your yearly goals into smaller monthly, weekly, and daily goals.
How It Boosts Motivation
How does selling by the numbers boost motivation in the first place? Well, there are actually four reasons why this approach to sales works so well.
1. One Path to Success
First, it’s a single path to success. Compared to the “winging it” approach, selling by the numbers gives you clear, weekly (and even daily) goals so you can quickly know when you’re winning and when you’re falling behind. Achieve those goals, and you’re making progress. Simple as that.
2. Easy to Communicate
Two, it’s easy to communicate to your management. When you’ve clearly defined your goals, it’s easier to get your supervisors behind a plan. And with their support, your 10X more likely to stay on track.
3. Forces You to Decide What You Want
Third, selling by the numbers forces you to decide what you want. This framework moves backward, so you’re defining what your goals are right at the start. And as long as you’re following the plan each day, you can rest assured you’re continually working towards those goals that actually matter.
4. Walk Away Power
And four, selling by the numbers lets you walk away from bad leads if you want. With this framework, you can easily refer to your plan, see if you need that buyer to hit your numbers, and if not, walk away from all the trouble.
And that is something every sales rep would love to do.
The Selling By the Numbers Framework
Alright so the question is, how does the Selling By the Numbers Framework work? Essentially, this five-step framework starts from the end and moves backward to define how to reach your goals.
1. Define Your Wants
Defining your wants.
What do you want your life to look like in 5, 10, 20 years? What do you need to achieve that?
Now don’t go straight for the income figure. Because money in and of itself isn’t a want. It’s a means to an end. And we’re going to be dealing with it specifically in the next step.
Instead, a want is something like being able to send your kid to college. It’s that shiny new Corvette. It’s that safety net to keep your family safe during an emergency.
Get it?
So step one, determine your want. And then…
2. Set Your Income Goal
Step two, set your income goal to achieve that want. How much extra dough do you need to earn to be able to afford that want?
Now for tangible goods you can buy right now like that new car, that’s easy. You know the price. But for wants that you don’t need fulfilled right away, you’ll have to work out a savings plan.
For example, say you want to be able to send your kid to college in 15 years. Tuition is around $225,000 so that breaks down to an extra $15K saved per year. Make sense?
3. Determine Your Starting Point
Determining your starting point. This one’s simple, where are you now compared to your income goal?
All you have to do here is take what you’ve earned already and subtract it from the final goal. Then you need to take into account the givens for this year. Do you have recurring revenue from certain accounts? Are you losing any long-time customers? What kinds of sure-things are out there this year?
Take it all in when determining where you’re at now. The more accurate you are at this stage, the easier it’ll be to achieve your income goals on schedule.
4. Establish Your Waypoints
Step four is where the magic starts to happen. Because this is when you start creating quarterly, monthly, weekly, and even daily goals.
Let’s say we’re aiming for the extra $15K per year to afford our kid’s college. What we’ll do here is go backwards from that. If the average commission of a closed deal is $1,000, that means you need to close an additional 15 deals each year.
Now it’s time to look at your close rates on each step leading up to a sale. How many proposals turn into a sale? How many demos into proposals? And so on and so on.
So breaking that all down, your data may look something like this:
Sales target = $15,000
Average dollar value of closed deals = $1,000
Closed deals = 15
Proposals given = 30
Demos scheduled = 60
Discovery calls scheduled = 120
Decision makers spoken to = 480
Calls made = 2400
So if you make an extra 2400 calls this year, you’re on your way to earning that extra $15K. Now with that info in hand, it’s time to break these numbers down into quarterly, monthly, weekly, and daily goals. Which would look like this…
Quarterly
Calls made = 600
Decision makers spoken to = 120
Discovery calls scheduled = 30
Demos scheduled = 15
Proposals given = 8
Closed deals = 4
Monthly
Calls made = 200
Decision makers spoken to = 40
Discovery calls scheduled = 10
Demos scheduled = 5
Proposals given = 3
Closed deals = 2
Weekly
Calls made = 48
Decision makers spoken to = 10
Discovery calls scheduled = 3
Demos scheduled = 2
Daily
Calls made = 10
Decision makers spoken to = 2
Discovery calls scheduled = 1
And voila! You now have the ultra-specific goals you need to complete each day to achieve your final want.
5. Create Your One-Page Plan
Creating your one-page plan.
This one-page plan summarizes it all: your want, your income goal, your starting point, and your quantitative waypoints you need to achieve—and it’s all on one single sheet you can look at every day.
If we’re sticking with the extra $15K example from before, your one-page plan will look something like this:
My One-Page Plan
Want: To have enough money saved up over 15 years to pay for Molly’s tuition in full.
Income Goal: $150,000 per year
Starting Point: $130,000 + $5,000 recurring yearly revenue (additional $15,000 per year needed)
My Waypoints:
Quarterly
Calls made = 600
Decision makers spoken to = 120
Discovery calls scheduled = 30
Demos scheduled = 15
Proposals given = 8
Closed deals = 4
Monthly
Calls made = 200
Decision makers spoken to = 40
Discovery calls scheduled = 10
Demos scheduled = 5
Proposals given = 3
Closed deals = 2
Weekly
Calls made = 48
Decision makers spoken to = 10
Discovery calls scheduled = 3
Demos scheduled = 2
Daily
Calls made = 10
Decision makers spoken to = 2
Discovery calls scheduled = 1
All that’s left is sticking that one-page plan somewhere you’ll see it every day. I put mine right next to my monitor so I remember to stay focused all day long.
And that, my friends, is how you keep up your motivation by selling by the numbers.
Storytelling in Business - Drive More Engagement With Prospects | Salesman Podcast
Sep 01, 2022
The everyday sales pitch is boring.
Running through features, hitting on target metrics, going through product slide after product slide after produ…
Truth be told, the everyday sales pitch sucks. And your buyers think so too.
But it doesn’t have to be this way. You can deliver a powerful, effective message while driving engagement, stirring emotions, and generating real buying intent.
And it’s all thanks to storytelling in business.
In this guide, I’ll show you how to incorporate compelling stories during your sales pitch using a simple five-point framework. I’ll also cover why business storytelling drives serious selling success, pro tips for how to tell a good story, and three goals every sales story should have.
Now, let’s dive into this potent sales technique
Why Storytelling in Business Just Plain Works
If there’s one thing that unites all humans, it’s that no one likes change. It can be scary. And adapting to it takes work. So, why should you go through the necessary changes to bring storytelling into your processes?
As it turns out, there are four reasons in particular why a business story just plain works.
A) Engaging on a Fundamental Level
First and foremost, a compelling story is engaging. And not just “meh” engaging. But engaging on a fundamental, biological level.
See, we’ve been hard-wired for thousands, even tens of thousands of years to pass on important information via storytelling. In fact, some of the earliest evidence of stories come from cave drawings in France that go back as far as 30,000 years.
Studies have shown that how character-driven a story is can predict how much people are willing to donate to charitable causes. A message wrapped in a well-constructed story is more likely to be understood (and even recalled weeks later). And even our conception of ourselves, our own identity, is built on a storytelling foundation.
Humans are storytellers and story-listeners. And when you incorporate that nature into your selling process, you’re tapping into that biological underpinning.
B) Taps Into Emotions
Logic is an important aspect of any sale. If you can’t make the numbers, the buyer isn’t going to bother giving you a try. Hey, it’s just business.
But sales is about emotion too. Sometimes it’s even more important than logic.
Emotion is the driving factor behind decision-making. It’s the excitement, the trust, the gravitational pull that causes buyers to say, “Yes! I want this.” And logic, while important, is more about justifying that purchase decision.
When you’re telling your great story to prospects, you’re helping them feel the same ups and downs as your “characters” or past buyers. And as a result, you’re priming their emotions to make a purchase decision.
“Fundamentally, we make decisions emotionally, and if all we're doing is spouting features and benefits, we're really engaging the logical part of the brain. The logical part of the brain does not make decisions. But analyses and captures information to weigh pros and cons, but decisions are made emotionally. And what stories do is they tap into the emotional center of the listener, and that's where the decisions are made.” – Interview with Adrian Davis, President & CEO of Whetstone Inc.
C) Lets the Buyer Feel Like the Hero
In the same vein as the last point, when your buyer feels the emotions of your narrative’s hero, they start feeling like the hero themselves. And that is key to driving real action.
Unfortunately, a lot of sales reps don’t get this point until far later in their careers. They try to make themselves look like the hero—the rep who knows it all, who has all the expert knowledge, and who has helped countless others.
But the truth is, the buyer does not care about you.
On a human-to-human level, of course they do. But when they’re faced with serious change (switching vendors, putting their reputation on the line, etc.), they need to feel the jubilation that comes from being the reason for a massive business success.
And it’s up to you to help them feel that way.
“I think most of us want to come in as salespeople, and I sell all the time, so I'm no different, and we want to be the hero. Well, I’ve got bad news, we're not the hero, we need to make our customer the hero.” – Interview with Ken Rutsky, Consultant, Speaker, Mentor, & Author
D) A Subtle Way to Boast Success
Last but not least, a story is a way to hint (just hint) at your own success. Without straying too far from the real hero of the story—the buyer—telling a story about a past client lets you say, “Hey, I’ve helped plenty of people like you. See?”
As we all know, social proof is the undisputed king of tools for building trust. But if you bombard prospects with testimonials and case studies right off the bat, they’re only going to head for the hills. They’re just not at that stage of the buyer’s journey yet.
But when you tell a story that really connects with your prospects, you’re helping them understand the problem, explore the solution, and see that you are ultimately the gatekeeper to their success.
This lets the prospect know that you have a deep understanding of your target audience. That you've seen relatable experiences and you answer their questions in an authentic way.
Pretty cool, right?
The Sales Rep’s Storytelling Framework
Now that you understand why storytelling in business-to-business sales is so important, it’s time to dive into the how.
Lets get into some storytelling skills for the business world.
Now, there are plenty of different ways to approach great storytelling. But what I’ve found works the best is following a simple five-step process I like to call The Sales Rep’s Storytelling Framework.
It looks a little something like this:
Illustrate the Current Reality
Dive Into the Unresolved Pain
Encountering the Success Blockers
Illuminate the Future Reality
Build the Reality Bridge
1. Illustrate the Current Reality
The very first step to telling an effective sales story is to start with a previous customer you helped overcome a problem—a problem that’s strikingly similar to what your current prospect is going through.
Maybe it’s that their business’ growth has stalled in recent months. Or their team isn’t working nearly as efficiently as they should. Or it could be that they’ve hit a success roadblock that they just can’t seem to overcome.
Whatever the problem is, it should be a problem that resonates with your prospect. And it should be a problem that they themselves are encountering in their current reality.
Some points to drive home here are that:
The current reality, well… it sucks. And frankly, it might always suck. Unless something’s done about the situation of course.
It might not be the hero’s fault. Things change in business. And most things are out of people’s control. They’re a victim of circumstance.
This stage is laying the groundwork for the amazing solution to come later. So the bleaker you make this part of the story, the better.
How to Tell a Good Story Pro Tip: Do your research. The more intimately familiar you are with your prospect (problem they’re facing, pain points, goals, etc.), the more this introduction to the story is going to resonate with your prospect. And consequently, the more effective the story will be.
“If you want to close deals, if you want to win business, make it about them. It's not about you. It doesn't matter how great your product is. What is it going to do for them? Do your research on them, give them as many good examples of how it's helped similar people, but make it 100% about them.” – Interview with Daniel Disney, Author, Speaker, & Founder/Owner of The Daily Sales
2. Dig Into the Unresolved Pain
Once you’ve introduced the hero and the broad strokes of the problem, it’s time to really drive the pain home. In copywriting terms, this is what’s known as “agitating” the pain. And it’s an essential step to get your prospect to really connect with the story on an emotional level.
Your goal here is to make your prospect really feel what the hero is going through. And you do that by adding more detail, fleshing out the thoughts and emotions of the hero, and upping the tension.
Some questions you may want to cover are:
What are the consequences of this pain? – Think along the lines of missed revenue goals, delayed product launch, costly inefficiencies, etc.
Who do they look stupid in front of because of the pain or problem? – Their boss? Their colleagues? Their family members and friends?
Who is judging them? – Saying they could do the job better? Thinking the hero should never have had the position in the first place?
What is on the line? – A raise or bonus? A job? An entire department?
How to Tell a Good Story Pro Tip: Come at the problem from all the angles here. Money is a motivating factor, sure. But it’s not the only thing people consider when making a choice. Don’t be afraid to dive into the social consequences too.
“The number one fear that will stop most people from doing most things isn't failure, it's embarrassment.” – Interview with Michael Reddington, Certified Forensic Interviewer & President of InQuasive, Inc
3. Encountering the Success Blockers
At this stage of the story, the unrelenting pain points should force the hero into action. But before they settle on a solution (your solution), they encounter two roadblocks to success:
The Status Quo
They’re Lost
Blocker #1: The Status Quo
As we all know, the status quo is the existing state of affairs—it’s where we’re at now. It’s where everything stays the same and nothing changes, for the worse or the better.
And as a sales rep, you should know that the status quo is generally the enemy. It’s what keeps buyers from finding new (and more effective) solutions to their problems. And it’s what needs to be dealt with before they adopt your solution.
In our story, the status quo is built including four elements:
Selection Overwhelm – Selection overwhelm is when a buyer knows that they have a problem, but they don’t take action because they see so many potential solutions in the marketplace. This is where product differentiation comes in, a topic I’ve talked about plenty before. And at this stage in the story, it’s a great spot to reiterate just what makes your solution so superior to the competition.
Confirmation Bias – Confirmation bias is one of the tougher aspects of the status quo to overcome. Essentially, this bias is our mind’s tendency to stick by our previous decision and defend it wholeheartedly. The reason we have this bias is because it protects our self-image. If we admit that the previous solution we chose isn’t up to snuff, it’s a blow to our ego. And rather than finding a new, better solution, we stand by our old one. It’s your job to prove that this is a mistake.
Blowback Risk – The blowback risk is the very real risk that your potential buyer will look stupid if your proposed solution does not work out. Your reputation and brand in your industry will make a massive dent in this fear when you demonstrate your expertise and develop a network of satisfied customers.
Initial Cost of Change – Finally, the initial cost of change is that first chunk of energy that the buyer needs to spend to start using your solution. Fighting for the budget, implementing your product, and any other number of time-consuming tasks may all need to be taken care of before the buyer starts seeing benefits. The easier you can make it for the buyer, then, the more likely they’ll be to sign on.
“Buyers are looking to make a choice or an improvement in their environment. And a ‘do nothing deal’ happens when they decide to stick with their status quo.” –Interview with Tom Pisello, Chief Evangelist for Sales Enablement at Mediafly
Blocker #2: They’re Lost
That status quo is without a doubt the biggest barrier to buying. And when you deal with it effectively (or rather show how you dealt with it with past customers), there’s only one blocker left: the buyer is lost.
They don’t have all the answers. At least not yet, anyway.
And in the complicated world of B2B buying, knowing which solution is right for their problem (and how to implement it effectively) is confusing.
That’s why they’re looking for help. They’re looking for a guide, a mentor of sorts, that can simplify the process for them and tell them exactly what they need to know to make the right decision.
Sound familiar? Yep, that’s you!
But don’t jump into the story just yet. Instead, we’re first going to move on to the next step to really build the excitement.
4. Illuminate the Future Reality
Now that we’ve explained the current reality for the hero, dug deep into their pain points, and effectively described their success blockers, it’s time to paint a picture of their reality after implementing the solution.
The goal of this step is to generate enthusiasm in the buyer and to put them in the shoes of the hero.
How did the hero’s life improve after adopting the solution? Were they able to achieve or even outperform their professional goals? Did their stress levels drop? Did the higher-ups recognize all the hard work the hero went through to achieve these results?
Now’s the time to show just what’s possible when your buyer breaks through their wall of status quo and finds the right guide to get them the results they’re after.
How to Tell a Good Story Pro Tip: Get visceral with the future. Details are key here to driving real connection here. The more detailed and relevant you can make this for the buyer, the better they’ll be able to imagine themselves in the shoes of the hero. And that’s exactly what we’re after here.
“The average human being struggles to envision the future. They can see the present, they can see the past, but they really struggle to see the future. And what a before and after picture allows someone to do is think of the present photo, and that after photo as the future. That's why I think that salespeople have an opportunity, and I would dare say maybe even a responsibility, to preview the future for their customers that their customers aren't going to be able to envision on their own.” – Interview with Joey Coleman, Author, Speaker, & Chief Experience Composer at Design Symphony
5. Build the Reality Bridge
Finally, it’s time to tie everything together. It’s time to explain that you are the guide/mentor that took the hero from their current reality to their better future reality.
It was you that let them bridge the gap across their success blockers.
It was you that helped them see why your product stood out from the competition. Why adopting a new solution is a good investment. Why they don’t have to be concerned about blowback. And why implementing your solution doesn’t have to be stressful and time-consuming.
It was you that helped them achieve those jaw-dropping performance results, reduce their stress, and show the C-suite why the buyer is the best person for the job.
And yes, of course, you can do the same thing for the prospect too. You can make them the hero in their own story. All they have to do is say, “yes.”
If you’ve done everything right up until this point, you’ll now be talking to an engaged, excited, and ready-to-start prospect who’s just dying to work with you.
And it’s all because you told an excellent story.
“How you know that you actually won the prospect over is when they lean forward and say, “Can you tell me more about how you worked with Fred? What exactly did you guys do?” – Interview with Adrian Davis, President & CEO of Whetstone Inc.
How to Tell a Good Story: 3 Goals
Now that you understand how to tell a good story during your sales pitch, let’s go over three guiding principles you should never forget.
These are the ultimate goals you should be shooting for with your storytelling.
When you hit the three goals below, you’re using storytelling in business to its maximum effect.
Goal #1: Connect to the Buyer
Above all else is connection.
You want the buyer to feel like they are the heroes of the story. They are the ones that can achieve all the success you touched on. And in order to do that, you need to drive buy-in.
So, how do you get your prospect into the shoes of the hero?
First is research. Match your story to the real problems, pain points, and other details to those of the prospect.
Second, try dropping in key phrases that “transport” the prospect into the story. Phrases like:
“Does this sound familiar?”
“How would you have solved this?”
“Could you see yourself there too?”
Beyond just putting the buyer into the role of the hero, they also keep your audience engaged and part of the story.
Goal #2: Requalify the Prospect
Your story is also a great way to actually requalify the prospect to see if they’re a good fit for your solution.
Ask the buyer outright, “do you have these issues?” or “how would you have solved this?”
If their response is no, that’s fine. Just pivot to a different story and test that.
But if you aren’t making any headway and continue to get negative responses, it’s a good sign that this lead isn’t right for your business. And from there, you can take the appropriate actions to refer the lead to someone else.
Goal #3: Close, Close, Close
Finally, the goal of the story is to (duh) close, close, close!
If the buyer has been nodding their head throughout the story, you know it’s time to pounce. After you share that you’re the mentor that they’re looking for to achieve similar outcomes, ask, “Would it make sense for me to help you navigate this too?”
Making this ask is a powerful way to close the emotional side of the sale right then and there.
“If you can understand what your customer’s “good” looks like in six months time, guess what, you're selling to his perception or her perception of value. And that's what a customer buys. Customers don't buy technology, they buy outcomes, I believe.” – Interview with Julian Reading, Sales Enablement Expert
Wrapping Up
Storytelling in business is a powerful tool for any sales rep looking to boost their selling effectiveness. That’s because it’s fundamentally human, taps into a prospect’s emotions, lets them feel like the hero, and subtly sells your success.
But to get the most benefits possible, you need to know how to tell a story. And with The Sales Rep’s Storytelling Framework, effective storytelling in sales is easy. Just:
Illustrate the Current Reality
Dive Into the Unresolved Pain
Encountering the Success Blockers
Illuminate the Future Reality
Build the Reality Bridge
With this framework, you can add some life to your sales pitch. No more driving buyers to sleep by endlessly slogging through features and metrics. Instead, prospects will be more engaged, more receptive to your solution, and (of course) more likely to buy from you.
Your B2B Buyer's Journey: A Comprehensive Guide For Sellers | Salesman Podcast
Aug 30, 2022
Times have changed for B2B salespeople.
Not too long ago, buyers used to do light research on a solution before reaching out to a sales rep for more detailed information. These interactions helped educate buyers about the product. But they also gave salespeople all the power when it came to controlling the buyer's journey.
These days, however, the buyer's journey is in the hands of the buyer. Pricing, product features, case studies—these sales assets (and many more) are typically all available online. And buyers now move through 70% of the buyer's journey on their own, not at the urging of a sales rep.
So, how do you navigate this new B2B selling landscape? And how do you determine what your own buyer's journey is for your ideal customers?
That's exactly what this guide examines. Inside, we'll be defining the buyer's journey, explaining how it's changed over the years (and what that means for you), and detailing what you need to consider when redefining your buyer's journey.
What Is the Buyer's Journey?
As a quick refresher, let's outline exactly what a buyer journey is. Also known as a customer journey or purchase cycle, a buyer's journey is essentially how your buyers go from being unaware of their problem to deciding to purchase your solution.
As you know, buyers don't wake up one day and make purchase decisions on a whim (especially true in the B2B world). Instead, buyers need to first recognize they have a problem, learn more about it, and research the best solutions before deciding on a solution.
The length of a buyer's journey tends to depend on the level of risk involved.
For pricier solutions, the buyer's journey is longer. Buyers need to do more research to justify their purchase. And they'll need more convincing to jump onboard.
For less expensive solutions, the opposite is true. With less at stake, buyers feel more comfortable making quick decisions.
As a buyer progresses through different stages of the customer journey, they'll have different concerns that need addressing before moving to the next stage. And it's your job as a successful sales rep to meet those needs every step of the way.
For example if your buyer is already at the consideration stage because they've consumed someone elses inbound marketing efforts then their buying process is nearly complete and it's going to be difficult to win business from them.
Alternatively, if you're prospecting a slightly different buyer persona and they're still in the research and decision process then you've still got a chance to solve a pain point or two and influence their purchase process.
Breaking Down the Buyer's Journey Stages
So, what are the buyer's journey stages? First, let's take a closer look.
No Awareness – This stage is when the buyer doesn't even know they have a problem. That can mean they're entirely unaware of it in the first place, or (more likely) they don't understand that a current inefficiency can actually be fixed.
Awarenessstage – This is when the buyer acknowledges the problem exists and seeks out more information about it. A buyer in this stage will respond to content types that examine their problem and shed light on why this problem exists in the first place.
Exploring Solutions – Now that your buyer fully understands the problem they're dealing with, they're going to start researching solutions. What types of solutions are out there on the market? And which type will fix their problem?
Comparing Vendors – This is when buyers get into the nitty-gritty. After determining the solution type, it's time to drill down into how the vendors stack up against one another. Which has the most valuable features? How do they compare on price? And what services will align best with their business?
Purchase Decision – The final stage of the B2B buyer's journey is making a purchase decision. This stage is when buyers have settled on a solution but still need a bit of a push over the edge. They need reinforcement that they're doing the right thing. And they need reassurance that this solution is right for them.
Then Vs. Now – What's Changed in the B2B Buyer's Journey?
While the stages of the B2B buyer's journey haven't changed, the sales rep's role in that journey certainly has. And that's all thanks to an increasingly digitalized sales cycle.
According to HubSpot, a whopping 77% of purchasers won't talk to a salesperson until they've done their own research. And that was in 2015. These days, the numbers are even higher.
Decision-makers are relying on their research to learn more about their problems and possible solutions than ever before. They're leaning into marketing automation and search engine results pages to educate them rather than calls with sales reps.
As a result, sales reps like you need to understand the difference between the old buyer journey and the new buyer journey and then tailor your sales process accordingly.
The Old Buyer Journey
In the old days, the sales rep would shoulder most of the burden to ushering potential buyers through the active research process and customer journey.
As you can see from the traditional buyer's journey above, educational materials would only play a role in informing buyers about the problem and touching on the solutions.
From the third stage on, buyers would get most of their information and educational materials from the reps, not from their own research. This, of course, put a lot of control in the hands of the reps and this is why a hard sales pitch became common place.
Reps could assess where the buyers were in their journey and feed them materials that they needed to move on to the next phase.
These materials might include:
Articles
How-To Guides
Relevant content
White Papers
Product Spec Sheets
Case Studies
Demo Videos
Product Comparison Guides
Free Samples
The New Buyer Journey
Where the traditional buyer's journey allowed for maximum control, the modern buyer's journey is much more hands-off for sales reps like you.
Rather than coming to you for educational materials, buyers now expect to access much of that information independently. And that's even more true today in a post-COVID era.
A 2020 McKinsey study, for example, found that 70-80% of B2B decision-makers prefer remote human interactions or digital self-service models vs. “traditional” in-person models. Just 20% of buyers said they hope to return to in-person sales. And that's even in industries where field sales have dominated, like pharmaceuticals and medical products.
Buyers now expect to access the content they need to move through the first four stages of a customer journey by themselves. They want to learn about their problems, possible solutions, and various vendors on their own first. Then and only then are they willing to get on the phone with a salesperson.
You'll also notice the modern buyer's journey is longer than the traditional journey. Whereas educating buyers and closing a complex sale could happen in the span of just a few days before, most buyers are now taking longer to get to that “yes” decision.
What This Shift Means for You
So, what does all this mean for you as a B2B salesperson? Well, there are a few key takeaways here.
A) Prepare for a Longer Sales Cycle
Turning a prospect into a confirmed buyer takes longer than ever. Demand Gen Report found about 58% of buyers report their decision-making process is becoming longer year over year.
Part of that is due to more readily available competition. With so many products ripe for the picking in the digital world, B2B buyers have many options to choose from. Of course, some of those options won't be right for the job. But even still, simply weeding through all the not-right products out there takes time.
On top of that, B2B deals are becoming increasingly complex. On average, it takes input from 6 to 10 decision-makers to settle on a solution, according to Gartner. That means there are bound to be more emails, product demos, sales calls, and nurturing cycles than most B2B salespeople were used to even a decade ago.
Here's how you can adapt to a longer sales cycle:
Avoid pushy sales tactics and adopt an educational attitude.
Develop a solid sales cadence to keep prospects engaged over time.
Work on building out educational and valuable content for every stage of the buyer journey.
Keep detailed accounts of what content your buyers have engaged with so you understand when to step in.
Focus on customer lifetime value where possible with your buyer personas. It's far easier to close one target audience more than once than it is to close fresh prospects over and over.
B) Focus on Strategic Content
In the world of B2B sales, the salesperson with the best content is king.
These days, buyers are interacting with content more than ever before. And they're doing it on their own too. Research from FocusVision found that B2B buyers now consume at least 13 pieces of content before making a buying decision.
That's why it's so important for you as a sales rep to make the shift to creating valuable, customer-focused content for every stage of the buyer's cycle. On the one hand, it reinforces you as a thought leader.
Selling expert Victor Antonio said the same thing when Salesman.org interviewed him:
“The majority of executives don't want to talk to a salesperson, they simply don't. They want to do the whole customer journey by themselves. And then, when I'm ready, I'll reach out to you. Well, how do I reach out? Well, this is the guy that's got content, he seems to know what he's talking about. I'm going to go call Will, see what's happening over there.”
Great content, then, builds trust. And it funnels more buyers into your pipeline.
Beyond that, great content also caters to your buyers' desire to move through the cycle at their own pace. You're meeting them where they want to be rather than forcing them into a journey they don't want to participate in. And that is how you appeal to buyers today.
C) Adopt an “Education First, Salesmanship Second” Mindset
The modern B2B buyer's journey is no longer linear. Instead, decision-makers will flow from Awareness to Exploring Solutions to Comparing Vendors and back to Awareness again, all in a single cycle. What's more, they may dip their toes in each stage at the same time.
Rather than a straightforward path, then, Gartner suggests a B2B buyer journey may look closer to this:
Throughout such a complicated journey, individual salesmanship is likely to be lost in the shuffle of information.
What takes its place in importance is your ability to provide educational materials every step of the way. And the more focused you are on delivering value rather than simply talking your way into a sale, the better your numbers will be.
D) Equip Yourself With Alignment Tools
You've already seen how the modern buyer's cycle is heavily dependent on delivering quality, educational content.
In the old world, you would know exactly what content your buyer is consuming because, well, you showed it to them in the first place. But with so much research and engagement happening before you even speak to a lead, you need to know exactly what your buyers have interacted with beforehand. That's where your CRM tool comes in.
With the right CRM (customer relationship management) tool, you'll have a complete record of which content leads have already consumed and where they may be at on the buyer's journey.
Mapping Your Buyer's Journey
The purpose of changing up your buyer's journey is to create a sales cycle that more buyers respond to positively. And for most B2B businesses, that means shifting away from a product-focused approach and towards a buyer-focused model.
Jeff Koser of Zebrafi put it best in a recent interview with Salesman.org:
“[Buyers] don't care about your product, they care about themselves. And they have to. It's their job. That's why there's such a fundamental difference between the buying journey that a prospect wants to go down versus a sales cycle that most salespeople try to conduct. And by shifting to pain, business issues, and value, you're actually making more of the shift to the buyer's journey that they want to participate in.”
To figure out how your own customers are moving through the buyer's journey, you need to take into account the following factors:
Which step you're meeting them at
Where they've been
What pain points they're experiencing
What their next step will be
How you get them to that next step
1) Which Step Do You Meet Them?
Where are you currently reaching out to buyers? Again, if it's in the earlier stages, you should consider shifting that to later in the sales cycle.
Generally speaking, you will likely want to steer clear of direct interactions until late in the Comparing Vendors Stage/Purchase Stage.
True, there was a time when you could swoop in during the solution exploration stage. But today, ushering buyers through this part of the customer journey is better left to educational content.
It is worth noting, of course, that every industry is going to be different. And your unique buyers may respond better to earlier outreach.
But the key here is to test alternative contact points and measure the varying effectiveness. Don't rely on old models to tell you when you should push for a call and when you should step back and let the buyer take the lead.
2) Where Have They Been?
You'll also need to consider the context for how they're moving through your buyer's journey.
Which stages have they been through already? Have they shown strong engagement with materials from those previous stages?
A robust CRM will be helpful here as it'll let you see what content from which stages buyers have consumed so far.
3) What Pain Are They In?
Next up is determining the pain points buyers are likely experiencing.
In general, there will be specific pain points associated with particular stages in the buyer's journey.
To give you an idea of where to start, buyers may experience the following pain points in these stages:
No Awareness
I know my business can be run more efficiently, but I don't know-how.
Can we generate more revenue?
Is it possible to attract more qualified talent?
Awareness
There is a gap in our processes that I need to understand better.
We are missing out on earning potential; let's figure out why.
There is a problem in our business, we need to give it a name and define it.
Exploring Solutions
We don't know which solution types will solve our problem.
We don't know which solution types apply to our business model.
We don't know which solution types are available in our industry.
Comparing Vendors
Which product offers the features we need to make this a successful solution?
Which product offers additional features that increase their business value?
Purchase Decision
I'm concerned this isn't the right decision and needs reinforcement.
4) What Is Their Next Step?
Next, you'll need to define where you want the buyer to go next.
This can be as simple as naming the next stage of the buyer's journey. For instance, if you determine the optimal place to interact with buyers is in the Comparing Vendors Stage, the next step would be ushering them into the Purchase Decision Stage.
5) How Do You Get Them To The Next Stage?
For most stages of the buyer's journey, the answer here will be valuable content.
Content should be the backbone of your buyer journey. And content (not pushy salesmanship) should be the driving force of what moves a buyer from one stage to the next.
But what content type works best for each stage?
Below are just a few examples of the best content types for each stage of the buyer's journey.
No Awareness & Awareness Stages:
Blog posts
Social media posts
Educational webinars
Checklists
Exploring Solutions Stage:
How-to video
Whitepapers
Ebooks and in-depth guides
Comparing Vendors Stage:
Product comparison guide
Product spec guides
Case studies
Reviews and testimonials
Purchase Stage:
Sales calls
Consultation offer
Discounts
Live demo
Free trial
Creating Your Journey Statement
A journey statement is essentially the combination of all the information you learned when defining your buyer's journey. It should help you define:
When you're meeting buyers
What stages of the buyer journey they've been through
What pains they're currently experiencing
What are their next steps
How you help move them to that next step
It should look something like this:
I help (buyers at the optimal engagement stage), who have (which stages they've been through), solve (main pain points at that stage) and move towards (next stage) by (how you move them).
Example:
I help buyers at the Purchase Decision stage, who have made their way up through the Comparing Vendors stage, justify their decision to buy our product and move towards a purchase by showing them what it's like to work with us using live demos and more.
Your journey statement (when well-defined) will help you better understand your role as a sales rep and let you engage buyers at the optimal point in the buyer's journey.
Wrapping Up
The buyer's journey isn't the same as it used to be. Buyers have more control over their progression. B2B salespeople need a more sophisticated content strategy. And a more modern cycle requires reps to shift from a product-focused approach to one focusing on providing value instead.
And while acclimating to this new B2B sales landscape may take some adjustment, you can do so successfully if you put in the work and focus on customer success more than anything.
As Wistia VP of Sales and Customer Success, Peter von Burchard, put it in our interview:
“Customer success is really understanding the journey that the customer is on, and the problem that you're solving as a solution and finding a way to align yourself as a company with getting those customers to achieve that end. And I think it's really about aligning the business and the solution with the goals of the customer and helping execute on that.”
How To Create a Winning 30-60-90 Day Sales Plan (+ Sales Plan Template)
Aug 29, 2022
You’ve got a job interview for your dream sales job.
You have the experience and a track record of success. The only thing between you and your offer letter is your (hopefully) future sales manager.
Impress them with your exceptional selling skills and expertise, and you’ve got the job.
But the question is: how?
This Salesman.org sales plan template guide will show you how to put together a winning 30-60-90 day sales plan to impress your sales manager with your sales knowledge and expertise and nab your dream sales position.
What Is a 30-60-90 Day Sales Plan?
A 30-60-90 day sales plan outlines the measurable goals for your first three months on the job. Think of it as your personal value proposition that shows your superiors you’re a self-starter and helps you be laser-focused on achieving results.
It expands on what success looks like in the first 30, 60, and 90 days, respectively. The idea here is to lay out your clear-cut plans for measuring a successful transition and keeping everyone focused in the right direction.
Why Do You Need a 30, 60, 90 Day Plan?
Your dream sales job is also somebody else’s dream job. This means you have to stand out in your interview and make sure the hiring manager can see what a great addition you can be to the organization.
The only way to do this effectively is to create a sales plan that shows your vision of the future of the sales territory or customers you’ll be taking over. It should outline your interaction with your sales team, sales strategies, sales cycle, target audience and revenue goals.
Each aspect of your 30-60-90 day sales plan should detail a specific focus, your priorities and goals, and a plan for measuring success. Getting this right will help you maximize your progression into a new role by identifying potential partners to sell two and establishing a general framework for success.
Here’s are the biggest benefits of developing a 30-60-90 day plan:
Creates a clear focus for your first 90 days on the job, boosting your productivity and maximizing results
Ensures your goals are set properly in your 30-60-60 day plan, letting you integrate quickly and smoothly into the organization
Proves you’re capable of self-management and achieving goals and are an employee worthy of development.
If you bring in a well-thought-out plan into a job interview, you’ll have an advantage over other under-prepared candidates, significantly improving your chances of getting hired.
Other Scenarios Where Having a 30-60-90 Day Sales Plan Makes Sense
Putting together a 30-60-90 days sales plan takes time and effort, but the good news is you don’t have to do it often. When you write a sales plan it becomes a sales tool that can be used over and over.
Besides the interview process, you can also use your sales plan for the following circumstances:
Scenario 1: First Week on the Job
You got a brand-new job—or maybe you’ve earned an internal promotion.
Regardless of the circumstance, you should create a 30-60-90 days sales plan within the first week on the job. Doing this will demonstrate your commitment to your new role and give you a well-defined plan to ensure you’re off to a good start.
Scenario 2: New Territory Management Assignments
If your company follows the territory management approach, creating a 30 60 90 day plan for new sales territory is a no-brainer.
Your plan should clearly define geographic boundaries for territories you’re responsible for and the metrics you’ll use to evaluate territory performance. It should include any new business goals, changes in the company mission or types of sales that you'll be making.
Steps To Create a Winning 30-60-90 Day Sales Plan Template
Next, let’s understand how you can draft an effective 30 60 90 day sales strategy plan.
Step 1: Know Who You’re Creating the Plan For
You should know who you’re making the plan for. This involves thinking from the perspectives of two stakeholders: your team and you.
A) Align Your Plan With Your Organization’s Goals
Understand your sales team’s priorities and goals and align your sales plan with them.
For a job interview, try to connect with a salesperson already working with the company on LinkedIn. Strike a polite conversation and ask them what goals they’re being pushed towards corporately.
If you’re new on the job or handling a new territory, speak to your sales manager and ask them about goals that matter most to the organization.
Find out current revenue targets, sales and marketing initiatives and any strategies and tactics that are working for the sales team.
B) Identify Your Own Priorities
What are your current priorities and personal goals?
Do you want to earn more money? Or do you want to focus on building now to set up your territory for even bigger successes? Maybe you want to position yourself as a legendary adviser for all things sales.
You must identify your own priorities before you start building your 30 60 90 day plan. This will give you a clearer perspective on how to approach things and set yourself up for success.
Do you want to install new sales tools, motivate your team or start pushing a new product or service? Creating your sales plan can reduce the time to implement a more effective sales action plan.
Don’t worry; we’ll also share a super-easy template you can follow and ensure better outcomes.
Step 2: Figure Out How to Measure Your Success
Now that you know your sales goals, your next step is to measure progress against those goals.
In the words of Peter Drucker, “If you can’t measure it, you can’t improve it.” When you know how to measure success, you can improve your plan further by identifying and eliminating weak aspects.
Here are a few tips to help you get started on the right track:
Gain in-depth knowledge of product features
Have the ability to demo the product at a high level
Have built key relationships built-in potential growth accounts
Developing a more targeted customer profile
Become known, liked, and trusted with all current partners
Improved sales performance or increased sales activities
Have a list of 100 potential partners to prospect over the next 12 months
Step 3: Draft Your 30-60-90 Day Plan Breakdown
At this point, you’ve already done most of the hard work.
You can now focus on documenting the information you currently have to create a more formal 30-60-90 day sales plan that you can then share with your sales manager. For each section of your plan, ask yourself “what does success look like?“.
Note: We’ve also added critical questions below to help you create a more impressive sales plan.
Stage 1: 30 Days
As mentioned, the first step is to ask yourself what success looks like after 30 days are complete.
When applying for a job, success in the first 30 days is likely completing your onboarding and training process successfully. In addition, you can also add the following criteria if you want to be more specific:
Understanding corporate priorities, new roles and responsibilities
Intermediate knowledge of key products and services
Knowing the product's position in the market vs. the competition
Developing key connections within the organization with customer support, sales leadership, team members etc
Going through previous rep's sales CRM data and outlining a few key accounts to target
The 30-day section of your sales plan should define your success goals and briefly explain how you plan on achieving them. It should also share how you‘ll know you’ve been successful in meeting these goals.
Let’s explain this using an example.
Success goal: Having intermediate knowledge of key products and services offered by the organization.
To complete I will: Spend an hour every week with the product specialist for each product and have them quiz me on my knowledge.
I will have success if: In the 30-day review meeting with my sales manager, they can quiz me about our product range like a potential partner would and I can answer their questions confidently.
This will allow you to show off your self-starting nature and help you understand your responsibilities better.
Be sure to schedule a meeting with your sales manager to discuss successes and any issues you had during the 30 days before moving on to the 60-day and 90-day time periods. It’ll make the transition smoother.
Stage 2: 60 Days
With the first 30 days up, you have to amp up your sales efforts in the second month.
You’ll be spending more time in the field or talking to potential partners at this stage. Keeping this in mind, you should understand your marketplace and products at a high level. Regardless of what you’re selling, after 60 days of being immersed in it, you should know everything related to the offering—big or small.
Another good tactic is to role play with co-workers and shadow your senior sales professionals to understand their sales processes and approaches.
Here are some pointers to include in the 60-day section of your sales plan. Notice how some of them are mandatory, while others are more flexible depending on your role, experience, and onboarding process.
Started developing at least five new leads — Mandatory
Have shadowed the top two performing sales reps in the company — Mandatory
High-level understanding of key products — Mandatory
Completed role-playing sessions with other sales professionals in the team
Have contributed to a sales meeting by adding value to the conversation
Completed all formal sales onboarding or training that needs to be done
Of course, these objectives will vary depending on why you’re drafting the 30-60-90 day sales plan. For instance, if you’re an experienced sales professional who has been recently assigned a new sales territory, your success criteria will look something like this:
Knowing your target territory — Mandatory
Setting measurable and realistic setting goals — Mandatory
Developing a territory management plan — Mandatory
Recording daily development in CRM
Attending meetings with other sales professionals
Information overload, we know. But getting this step right will help you achieve greater success. Plus, once you get the hang of things, everything will become easier.
Stage 3: 90 days
This is where you hit the ground running.
Your 31-90 day plan sets out what you’re planning on doing for the rest of the time in the specific sales role. Here, you should have an optimized prospecting list and have your foot in the door with at least a couple of potential new key accounts.
Only a few things can go wrong at this point, which might stop your 30-60-90 day sales plan from being fabulous. Don’t worry, though. We’ll cover 30-60-90 day sales plan mistakes later to make sure all your hard work pays off.
At this point in your new sales role you should have a lead generation strategy, be on top of all the new sales enablement tools and content, understand your customer pain points and have a few new customers on the go.
At the 90-day meeting with your sales manager, discuss any 3-4 points from the following success criteria:
Clear and optimized prospecting list in use — Mandatory
Daily schedule established for prospecting, following up and staying on top of everything else — Mandatory
Become a solid member of the team — Mandatory
Had at least one round of feedback on performance from the sales manager
Closed at least a couple of deals without too much babysitting from others
Foot in the door with a couple of exciting key accounts
And that’s it! That’s how you create a solid 30-60-90 day sales plan.
Mistakes To Avoid When Creating a 30-60-90 day sales plan
The whole point of creating a 30-60-90 day sales plan is to give you a clear direction in your new sales role. But there are a few errors that may make it less effective…
Mistake 1: Not Including Success Measurement
We get it: you don’t want to make promises you can’t keep. But not including specific ways of measuring your success on your sales business plan is a huge red flag that may cause your sales manager to question your capabilities.
You must be willing to put your money where your mouth is. So make sure you include measurable success criteria for each section of your 30-60-90 day sales plan.
Mistake 2: Making an Ambiguous Plan
Planning is about being specific and granular.
If you’re going to be ambiguous, your plan isn’t going to inspire confidence in your new sales leadership role and may fall flat.
Sales managers want to see numbers and progress towards a target rather than vague business strategy and generic sales plans.
Mistake 3: Lack of Sales Manager Follow-ups
Similar to how following up is necessary to win deals, holding meetings with your sales manager is important for improving your 30-60-90 day sales plan and self-improvement. Don’t forget to schedule meetings with your sales manager at the 30, 60, and 90-day points to review your progress and ask for advice on your sales process.
30 60 90 Day Sales Plan Template
As promised, right click and save as to download your 30 60 90 day sales plan template. This free template will take you through the process of creating a sales plan.
Replay: Do Sales People REALLY Need ALL That SOFTWARE?! | Salesman Podcast
Aug 26, 2022
Chris Smith is a sales and marketing expert, USA Today bestselling author and co-founder of Curaytor.
On this episode of the Salesman Podcast Chris shares how software and what tools modern, internet based B2B sales professionals really need to close business in their marketplaces.
Close Sales Faster By Understanding Your Buyer’s Journey | Selling Made Simple
Aug 25, 2022
Most people think the best sales reps are selfish, that they only think about closing a deal from THEIR side, not the buyer’s. They’re focused on the sales funnel, not the buying process.
But it turns out the most successful reps put 90% of their energy into understanding WHY buyers make a purchase. They focus on what’s known as the buyer’s journey. Because doing so makes nurturing a deal and closing 10X easier.
And guess what, you can do the same too.
What Is the Buyer’s Journey?
Basically, the buyer’s journey is how your buyers go from being unaware of their problem to deciding to purchase your solution.
Most sales professionals break the journey down into five stages:
1. No Awareness
No Awareness where the buyer doesn’t even understand they have a problem.
2. Awareness
Awareness where they’ve acknowledged the problem exists and are seeking more information about it.
3. Exploring Solutions
Exploring Solutions where the buyer is trying to find the right product to solve their problem.
4. Comparing Vendors
Comparing Vendors where they are weighing the pros and cons of different solutions.
5. Purchase Decision
And Purchase Decision where, you guessed it… they decide to purchase a particular solution.
Now, as they move through these five stages, they’ll interact with touch points that push them forward to the next stage. Touch points could be content like articles, case studies, and testimonials, but they’ll also be initial conversations with sales reps, demos, and sales calls.
How Has the Buyer’s Journey Changed?
How the buyer’s journey has changed recently.
Here’s what the old buyer’s journey looked like:
About 40% of the journey was covered by content the buyer would consume on their own. After that, sales would get involved and help guide the buyer through the remaining 60%.
But these days, the buyer’s journey looks more like this:
Nowadays sales reps are typically only involved in the final 20% of the journey—a huge change from the model of the past. This model has only gotten even more hands-off since the rise of COVID.
In fact, a study from McKinsey found that 70-80% of B2B decisionmakers now prefer remote or digital self-service models vs. traditional models.
This shift spells out three distinct changes for sales professionals like you:
1. The Sales Cycle Is Longer Than Ever
The sales cycle is longer than ever, which means more in-depth sales cadences and customer lifetime value are incredibly important.
2. Content Needs to Be More Strategic
Two, content needs to be more strategic. B2B buyers now consume at least 13 pieces of content before making a buying decision. As a result, your content needs to be specifically tailored for the buyer’s journey stage they’re currently in (more on that in just a bit).
3. “Education First, Salesmanship Second”
And finally, you need to adopt an “education first, salesmanship second” mindset to be successful in this new world of sales. Longer relationships, a complicated journey, and fewer sales rep touch points mean buyers will focus more on the value you provide, not the charm you exude.
Mapping Your Buyer’s Journey
Now, the question is how can you change up your buyer’s journey to create a sales cycle tailored to this new reality?
This is where the Buyer’s Journey Framework from the Selling Made Simple Academy comes in.
The first step is to understand how your own customers are actually moving through the buyer’s journey. And that takes plotting out five factors.
1. Which Step Do You Meet Them?
Which step do you meet them?
If it’s earlier in the cycle, you may want to consider shifting your personal touch points to later in the journey. Rather than having a sales conversation with prospects in the No Awareness stage, better to leave things to a well-crafted piece of educational content.
Now it’s worth mentioning that every industry will be different. So don’t be afraid to experiment with different methods in yours. But the key is to not rely on old models where you may close a deal during your first conversation.
Instead, know when to step back and let the buyer take the lead.
2. Where Have They Been?
Factor number two is knowing where the prospect has been.
Which stages have they been through already? What kind of content are they consuming on a regular basis? Where are you seeing the most engagement?
A robust CRM is golden here so be sure to equip yourself with tools like HubSpot as soon as possible.
3. What Pain Are They In?
Next up, what pain are they in?
There are usually specific pain points for each stage of the buyer’s journey. Knowing which pain points match up with which is essential for delivering the right messaging.
Here are some examples of possible pain points for each stage.
No Awareness
I know my business can be run more efficiently, but I don’t know how.
Awareness
There is a gap in our processes that I need to understand better.
Exploring Solutions
We don’t know which solution types will solve our problem.
Comparing Vendors
Which product offers the features we need to make this a successful solution?
Purchase Decision
I’m concerned this isn’t the right decision and needs reinforcement.
4. What Is Their Next Step?
The fourth factor you need to consider is what is the buyer’s next step?
In the best-case scenario, the next step is going to be the next step in the buyer’s journey, like moving from No Awareness to Awareness.
With that next step in mind, you can then move on to…
5. How Do You Get Them to the Next Stage?
How do you get buyers to the next stage?
For most stages, it’s going to be valuable content that does the trick. Use the individual pain points you picked out when deciding what pain the prospect was in during step number three. From there, generate educational content that addresses those pain points.
Now in general you’ll want to keep content for earlier stages more simple. Blogs, social media posts, that kind of thing. And for later stages you can get more in the weeds with product spec guides, whitepapers, and case studies.
What’s important here is that you’re meeting prospects where they are and ushering them to the next stage. Skip the salesmanship. And focus on education instead.
Summary
Not taking the buyer-focused approach isn’t just wrong in principle (after all, your job is to be a problem solver, not a shyster). But it also makes qualifying, nurturing, and closing prospects 10X easier.
Proven 4-Step Cold Email Framework (Any Industry) | Selling Made Simple
Aug 23, 2022
Let’s face it—most cold emails suck. Cheesy openers, misleading subject lines, body copy that drawls on and on. It’s no wonder why the response rate for them is often less than 2%.
But the most frustrating thing about it is cold emails don’t HAVE to suck! Because there’s a simple, 4-step structure you can follow to make any email stand out in any industry for any customer…
Today we’re hitting on a subject that should be near and dear to any sales professional, cold email.
We’ll be covering one of my favorite Selling Made Simple Academy processes, The Strategic Cold Email Framework. It’s made up of just 4 short steps:
Get Attention
Demonstrate the Need
Earn Their Trust
Call to Action
Now, I love this framework because it’s just so versatile. You can apply it to any industry, from textiles and candy bars to professional services, luxury goods, and enterprise-level software.
And like I said, it comes directly from the Selling Made Simple Academy. We won’t be able to cover it as in-depth here, of course. But it’ll be a great overview so you can at least get some actionable strategies you can start using today.
And at the end, we’ll put it all together and share a template you can start using today.
1) Get Attention
In the increasingly busy and crowded world of email, if you can’t stand out from the rest right off the bat, your cold email is going straight to the trash. Buyers won’t even bother opening them.
So, which subject lines get opened rather than sent to junk?
A. Direct Subject Lines
Direct subject lines like “The world’s fastest CRM tool – 20% off today”
B. News Subject Lines
News subject lines like “Law [X] has moved on. Has your insurance followed?”
C. How-to Subject Lines
How-to subject lines like “How to reduce your advertising spend in 14 days”
D. Question Subject Lines
And question subject lines like “Is [X] costing you more to operate than it should?”
2) Demonstrate the Need
Once you’ve got their attention, it’s time to demonstrate the need.
What can you offer? And why should they devote their time to listening to you?
One of the best ways to do this is by using the reality gap method. This method involves three steps.
A. Current Reality
Outline their current reality, typically by highlighting a problem they’re dealing with today. Next…
B. Desired Future Reality
Show their desired future reality once that problem is solved. And last…
C. Reality Bridge
Build the reality bridge by providing the steps they need to take to get them from where they are now to where they could be—i.e., use the solution YOU are offering.
Here’s what that might look like in practice:
Hi [NAME],
I recently worked with [NAME], he is in the [INDUSTRY] like you.
Traditional salespeople had failed [NAME]. Here is his story – [LINK TO INSIGHT POST]
He went from zero motivation,to proactively racing to get to his desk each morning to prospect.
All by implementing proven frameworks to relieve the pressure of choice from his job.
Does it make sense to jump on a quick call to see if you can use these frameworks too?
Cheers,
Will
3) Earn Their Trust
Earning the buyer’s trust.
Social proof is the name of the game here.
What kinds of success stories have you had with past clients? What amazing ROI did you achieve that lines up with what you can offer this prospect?
Try to include social proof directly in the body copy. For instance, when building out a reality gap, use quantitative results from people in similar companies, preferably ones the prospect will recognize.
But if you really want to see your open and clickthrough rates explode, use a referral.
A referral is without a doubt the most effective piece of social proof in your arsenal. So if you have a colleague in common, be sure to leverage their name right in the subject line.
Another trick you can use is to include links to testimonials in your email signature. It’s an easy way to point prospects to even more social proof without seeming overtly spammy.
4) Call to Action
And the final step of the Strategic Cold Email Framework is the call to action.
At the end of the email, just ask this:
“Does it make sense to jump on a quick call to… [achieve a result]?”
Simple.
Don’t mix up your messaging by having multiple CTAs. Don’t overcomplicate things with a lot of fluff. Just ask the question. Bam.
Pulling It All Together
Now, what does this look like when we put it all together?
Well here’s the cold email template I mentioned earlier that has all four elements in one winning email.
Subject: Referral from [NAME] at [COMPANY]: Should we connect?
Message:
Hi [NAME],
I was chatting with [NAME] last week, and he said [INDUSTRY] is tough at the moment.
I told him that we help [INDUSTRY] salespeople close more sales in just 28 days, guaranteed! He was a little shocked…
That is a bold statement, right?
Well, we have helped [RELEVANT COMPANY] increase their sales by X% in the past few months. [NAME] their sales manager is dancing on tables right now.
Does it make sense to jump on a quick call to see if we can increase your sales too?
Thanks,
Will
See how we’re leveraging social proof right in the subject line and first sentence? Then we’re moving on to demonstrating the need and giving proof. And finally we’re wrapping up with a clear, straight-to-the-point CTA.
This is the exact template I use with my cold outreach. And if you use it for yours, I guarantee you’re going to see some pretty spectacular results.
And the coolest thing is that is isn’t just the Salesman.org team using this cold email framework, there are literally thousands of ofther sales professionals using it too.
Here you can see the Selling Made Simple Academy community and there are thousands of examples of people sharing their emails, getting feedback and getting success from them too.
If you’d like to find and close more deals in the next 30 days or your money back, click the link below to book a call with one of our team and we’ll see if you’re a good fit for our program.
Sales Territory Management 101: A Sales Rep's Complete Guide | Salesman Podcast
Aug 22, 2022
Many businesses organize their sales teams into territories based on geography, demographics, or other criteria. Your company has also decided to jump on the sales territory management bandwagon to ensure better outcomes.
But how can you ensure you continue hitting your monthly sales quota under this new arrangement?
Your experience and your prospect's willingness to buy your product affect your success, but one thing is sure you cannot simply… wing your sales territory management.
You need a territory management plan—a solid one at that.
This Salesman.org guide will lay out the basics of sales territory management and help ensure you direct your time and energy on activities that have the most impact.
What Is Territory Management?
A sales territory is a customer group or geographic area over which either an individual sales reps or a sales team has responsibility.
Each territory is defined based on specific factors, such as its history, geography, or sales potential—sometimes a combination of these factors. The ultimate aim of managing sales territories this way is to maximize sales and profits while efficiently allocating resources.
Sales territories have to be balanced. Otherwise, bad things can happen to performance:
If your territory is being under-serviced, you and your team can spread too thinly, resulting in inadequate activity levels. As a result, you'll seek out a few leads, identify fewer prospects, and generate lower revenue.
If your territory is being over-serviced, you'll have little work and too many team members to service a smaller area. This will increase costs and overall prices, which will ultimately lead to reduced sales.
If you want to get the most value from your prospects, you need to get your territory management right. And the best way to get this? Have a solid territory management plan.
5 Easy Steps To Create an Effective Sales Territory Plan
Below, we've created a step-by-step rundown to help you create a winning enterprise territory management plan template and set yourself up for sales success.
Step 1: Familiarize Yourself With Your Target Territory
The first step when managing a sales territory is to analyze your current and potential customers thoroughly. Think about what your customers have in common, including:
Their location
Their purchasing behavior, i.e, the product or offering they buy from your business
The pain points your product or offering solves for them
The events that cause them to buy—or not to buy—your product
Also, figure out the needs of the market that are not currently being fulfilled. This analysis will tell you how to position your products or services uniquely, giving you an edge over your competition.
Step 2: Do a Self-analysis
Be aware of your strengths and weaknesses and your capacity to win business from your new prospects. This will help you develop a territory plan that plays to your strengths while improving any weak areas.
Besides your capabilities, you should also consider your organization's resources and think of ways to utilize them efficiently on your sales patch.
Step 3: Set Measurable Goals
Using the information collected from Step 1 and Step 2, develop goals you want to achieve from implementing your territory management. The goals you could measure include:
After identifying your territory management goals, it can be valuable to document them to remain top of mind. There are a few ways you can do this:
Goal Statement: Your goal statement should address what you plan to achieve and what is at stake in your sales territory. When you put your goals on paper, it becomes concrete. Instead of wondering about objectives, you know what you want to achieve from which activity.
Key Milestones and Deadlines: With a roadmap for approaching your prospects, you will close sales and achieve your goals faster. Break down your plan into smaller milestones to make your road to success clear. For instance, if you want to close $100,000 of new business this year, you can track progress by breaking your plan down into smaller milestones, such as $15,000 by Month 2, $32,000 by Month 3, and so on.
Measurable Metrics: You'll need clearly defined KPIs to ensure your business goals are met in an efficient mannor. To get started on the right track, consider metrics like total sales created, leads contacted, and leads closed. Choose metrics that give you insight into productivity and can help track your progress against those goals effectively.
Your goals must be realistic and simultaneously push you to improve and grow to meet your sales targets.
Step 4: Chalk Out Your Territory Action Plan
Creating the plan is where all the action begins!
Generally, your sales manager will create a map for you to prevent any overlap between different territories and sales reps. Your job is to ensure you visit all opportunities within your region in a timely and effective manner.
Think about how often to call each account and whether the calls should be in person or by phone—or the more remote-friendly option: virtually. By planning out the nuances beforehand, you'll minimize time, effort, and money wastage and can direct your focus on converting your clients.
Put your call plans on a calendar and stick to it. This will force you to have the discipline needed to become a successful territory manager.
Step 5: Effective Record-Keeping
As you implement your territory management action plan, you should maintain an accurate and up-to-date record of outcomes in your organization's CRM. This will help you track your plan's effectiveness.
Log everything. If your data tracking starts taking too much time then invest in selling software to help.
Sales Territory Management Best Practices
Besides creating a sales management plan, you'll have to adopt a few best practices and make them a part of your daily routine to have massive sales success.
A: Create a Contact Rotation Schedule
Regularly check in on prospects to ensure they have all the information resources to move forward in the buying process. But while you do this, don't come off as too salesy and end up overwhelming them.
It's why we highly recommend creating a contact rotation schedule. Use it to determine the communication channel that works best for your specific territory and at what point in the sales process. It'll also make it easier to decide when and how often an account needs a phone call, an in-person visit, or a promotional email.
B: Don't Forget Your Current Accounts When Finding New Leads
Your sales territory management plan should have a dual focus on providing services to high-value accounts and developing relationships with potential new accounts.
High-value accounts are those guaranteed to bring in higher volume sales in shorter periods when compared to other accounts. However, while high-value accounts will help you meet your sales quotas, they aren't enough to smash through it. You'll also have to cultivate new accounts to expand the business and ensure professional growth.
C: Change With the Seasons
Customer requirements change with the seasons. Depending on the product you're selling, your territory's customer base and conditions might vary during the year.
To avoid issues, analyze your territory by looking at sales data over time. Find out:
What product or service do people buy during different times of the year?
When are they buying it?
How much do they spend on them?
Based on the data, identify whether your business has slow and busy seasons. Then adjust your goals, priority level, and plan of action as needed.
D: Align Your Sales Efforts With Other Departments
You are not the only one interacting with customers. While other departments may not be talking to your buyers face-to-face, they're still interacting with your accounts.
Try to collaborate with other departments—marketing and customer service—and get them involved with your territory. Maintaining consistent interactions will help you learn valuable insights that you can apply when selling.
E: Refresh Your Sales Map
Territory management is a never-ending cycle where you must continuously evaluate, implement, assess, and improve your action plan.
Yes, this regular evaluation and improvement is a lot of work. But it'll help you achieve more tremendous success and close more deals over the longer term.
Even after you draft a strong territory management plan, nothing is set in stone. Conditions can change at any time, regardless of your industry, economy, organization. So keep measuring progress and modifying aspects of your plan to stay relevant and get your desired results.
Once you get a firm grasp over your territory, accounts, and current and potential customers, you can effectively crack the complicated code of successful treasury management. All the benefits—and bonuses—will soon follow.
Replay: How To Stay In Control Of The Sales Conversation | Salesman Podcast
Aug 20, 2022
Deb Calvert is the President of People First Productivity Solutions, offering sales training, coaching, and leadership development programs. Deb also leads the Stop Selling & Start Leading® movement and founded The Sales Experts Channel.
In this episode of The Salesman Podcast, Deb explains how we can use selling questions to remain in control of the sales conversation.
You'll learn:
Sponsored by:
Free SalesCode assessment
Learn your strengths and weaknesses in an instant. Taken by over 10,000+ of your competitors. Don't get left behind.
Take the free assessment
Featured on this episode:
Host - Will Barron
Founder of Salesman.org
Guest - Deb Calvert
President of People First Productivity Solutions
Coming up on today's episode of the Salesman podcast.
Deb Calvert:
Your role as being a leader in any sales conversation. The word origin of lead is guide. So you are the guide. What buyers really want is to be inspired and to be led. If you be as a leader, you become perceived as a leader, and leaders, they operate in the realm of something that's of interest to others.
Will Barron:
Hello, Sales Nation. My name is will Barron, and I'm the host of the Salesman podcast. The world's most downloaded B2B sales show. And on today's episode, we have the legend that is Deb Calvert. She is the author of Discover Questions. One of the only sales specific books that I recommend to you guys, Sales Nation, and to anyone else who wants to learn how to sell as well. And we'll get into questions on this episode, how to use questions to stay in control of the sale, no matter what stunts your buyers are trying to pull on you. Everything that we talk about is available in the show note to this episode over at salesman.org. And with that, let's jump right into it.
Who Between the Buyer and the Salesperson Should be in Control of the Sales Conversation? · [01:21]
Will Barron:
Conversations is what I want to talk about in this episode. We're going to look at how we can put ourselves, to use your words, in the driving seat of sales conversations moving forward. But let's get right back to basics here for someone who's perhaps relatively new to sales, whose job is it to control and drive a sales conversation forward? Is it the salesperson or is it that we should be listening to the buyer and we should just be sucking up to them and doing whatever they say and letting them be in control of the whole sales process?
“Let's use this metaphor. Imagine being in a car and someone's in the driver's seat and that should be the salesperson, but I think that the buyer should be metaphorically the navigator they should absolutely be involved and you should be very closely listening to them. But before you can even get those roles worked out, you've got to make sure that you're both going to the same place.” – Deb Calvert · [01:40]
Deb Calvert:
Well, yes, we should listen to the buyer, but let's use that metaphor. So imagine being in a car and someone's in the driver's seat and that should be the salesperson, but I think that the buyer should be metaphorically the navigator they should absolutely be involved and you should be very closely listening to them. But before you can even get those roles worked out, you've got to make sure that you're both going to the same place. So knowing that destination, you want your buyer to be in the car with you. But here's the thing that I see. And I guess this is really why this conversation is so important. I see a lot of sellers who are thinking that it would be rude or presumptuous to get into the driver's seat, and so instead they end up driving around aimlessly, looking, hoping somebody's going to want to get in the car with them.
Deb Calvert:
So that implies first of all, that like it or not, you're in the driver's seat, but are you going to get a buyer in there with you? And the only way you do that in fact is ironically, by making sure it's clear that you're in the buyer's seat to you and to your buyer. You already are there, but making sure that your buyer is going to get into the car with you, that's what this is really all about. And the only way you get them there, just like an Uber driver, is by making sure you're going to that destination where they want to go. And that's how they get in the car with you. Does that make sense? It's very ponderous.
Why Step One in a Sales Conversation Should be Setting a Clear Goal and Guiding the Buyer Towards That Goal · [03:07]
Will Barron:
That makes great sense. And Deb, is that step one then of both creating the conversation and the navigation system, is it to suss out going back and forth with the buyer where we are going, is that step one of stating that we're in control and then progressing it towards potentially a close?
“Your role is being a leader in any sales conversation. The word origin of lead is guide. So you are the guide in that conversation with your buyer, and that is driving. You're taking somebody someplace, just like a guide would.” – Deb Calvert · [03:40]
Deb Calvert:
I believe it is. And even before that, it's step one of working out in your own mind, your role. Your role as driver. Your role, we'll even position this a little differently. I think people might like this better. Your role as being a leader in any sales conversation. The word origin of lead is guide. So you are the guide in that conversation with your buyer, and that is driving. You're taking somebody someplace, just like a guide would.
Deb Reveals Why Most Salespeople Shy Away from Leading the Sales Conversation · [04:01]
Will Barron:
I want to get into questions and how we can navigate this moving forward, but why do perhaps some of the audience and perhaps myself as a younger sales rep, and you can give us your thoughts on this as well, Deb. Why do we sometimes shy away from this leadership role? Is it that we just don't want the responsibility of it? Why isn't it that we're doing this by default?
Deb Calvert:
Well, let me separate it from age, because I see a lot of older salespeople who do this too. It's that a seller isn't understanding the buyer and what they really want from a seller. So this is based on research. There are two bodies of research. So it's not just the recent research that went into Stop Selling and Start Leading. But it's the bigger body been going on now for almost 25 years, that'll age me, with discover questions.
“The job of a leader is to take followers to a place the followers want to be. That's what guides do too. So if you think about being in the jungle and chopping down the vines that are in the jungle. As a guide, you're taking somebody somewhere, and you're making it easy for them to get there. But nobody is going to go through that jungle with you if it's not a place they want to be. And frankly, they don't need you, unless it's a place that is a little hard to get to, and they see that you, uniquely, you have some expertise that could get them there.” – Deb Calvert · [05:15]
Deb Calvert:
And what buyers really want is to be inspired and to be led. So let me see if I can't use a couple of other visuals here. The job of a leader is to take followers to a place the followers want to be. That's what guides do too. So if you think about being in the jungle and chopping down the vines that are in the jungle. As a guide, you're taking somebody somewhere, and you're making it easy for them to get there. But nobody is going to go through that jungle with you if it's not a place they want to be. And frankly, they don't need you, unless it's a place that is a little hard to get to, and they see that you, uniquely, you have some expertise that could get them there. Well, this is all about positioning that, whether you're using questions, whether you're using inspirational language, but it's all about leadership either way.
Deb Calvert:
And so step one is yes, knowing where your buyer wants to go. But even before that, having the mindset that you are a leader who is committed, interested, able to take them there.
How to Squash Buyer Assumptions About Salespeople and Present Yourself as a Thought Leader · [06:27]
Will Barron:
It makes all sense, right? I think everyone's nodding their head in agreement with this. And for us to give buyers the ideal buying outcomes, we've sold the same product hundreds of thousands of times. They've probably not bought this product as many times as we've sold it. We've got insights. We've got resources in our own organisation. We can help these people, Deb. But just to play devil's advocate slightly here from the perspective of the buyer. I think most buyers, until they've dealt with you perhaps a couple of times, and perhaps we can talk about how we can set ourselves up to be known and perceived as leaders. Most buyers, when a salesperson reaches out to them, think, “[inaudible 00:06:37], another pesky salesperson trying to grab my money and take something and take up a load of my time.” So how do we set up the conversation so that we come across as a leader? So then I'm assuming that once we're perceived as a leader, all this gets easier as we go throughout the sales process.
“The fastest, quickest way to get away from that being perceived as a pushy salesperson who just wants to reach into my pocket, is that you've asked me a question, or you've somehow demonstrated that you care about me and you're interested in where I want to go and what's important to me.” – Deb Calvert · [07:21]
Deb Calvert:
It does. If you behave as a leader, you become perceived as leader. And leaders, they operate in the realm of something that's of interest to others. See, it's not true that leaders live in ivory towers or that leaders are lonely at the top. That's not true. Real leaders, the ones who inspire us that we choose to follow, they have an interest in us. So the fastest, quickest way to get away from that being perceived as a pushy salesperson who just wants to reach into my pocket, is that you've asked me a question, or you've somehow demonstrated that you care about me and you're interested in where I want to go and what's important to me.
Deb Calvert:
I say questions because that is frankly the fastest, easiest, clearest way to demonstrate that. Otherwise, you're in the assuming place and that's always dangerous. But a question, some great questions. And this is going to depend on the industry you work on a little bit. It's going to depend on your personality a little bit. It's going to depend on your buyer and what you know about them. But by and large, it's a question that sounds like, “What is it that you hope to accomplish?” Not what do you want to do with my product? That's too early. But bigger. What do you want? What do you hope to accomplish? What are your goals? What are the things that you value right now that are urgent and important to you?
Deb Calvert:
And when we start there, it does change the conversation, it does engage the buyer, and it does differentiate you from just that person who's waiting with baited breath to pounce on some opening that is all about you and serving your own interest.
Will Barron:
So two things I think you really subtly hear, Deb, and you might not have even realised it, because you're so ingrained in all of this. One, and I've never heard it put like this before. You said you want to be a leader that people choose to follow, as opposed to, we've probably all had that sales manager that's cracking the whip and constantly got us nervous about hitting target and trying to bully us into doing more work. We want to be a leader that inspires. You've used that word a few times. So I think that's important here just to frame up what a leader is and what we are aspiring to be, as salespeople, in front of our audience of buyers.
Will Barron:
And the other thing, and I want to just get clarification from you here. When we ask a question like, “What is your goals?” Are we keeping it an open-ended question like that? Or are we asking a more close ended question of, “What are your goals with your marketing this year with this range of products that I also happen to sell?”
The Differences Between a Leader and a Manager in Sales · [09:41]
Deb Calvert:
Yeah, those are two very important questions. I'm going to start with the first one, because people often misunderstand this very important thing. Managing and leading are not the same. There are lots of managers who have authority. You to do what they say if you want to keep your job. That's not leadership. Ideally a manager and a leader are the same person, but it doesn't always work that way. Leadership happens at every level and in every kind of a relationship. And leadership is, as I said, it's to guide, whereas manage the word origin there means to handle. I've got to get today's work done today. So that puts leaders more often in the longer term and managers in the shorter term. And I don't mean this to sound disparaging to managers, both leaders and managers are important, but if you don't have a title of manager and you're working with, for example, a buyer where you have no authority, you can still lead. So yeah, really, really good clarification there.
Comparing the Effectiveness of Open-ended Versus Closed Questions in Sales Conversations · [10:43]
Deb Calvert:
The other question is a good one. A broader versus a more narrow question. And I do strongly recommend, as counterintuitive as it may sound, because it will feel like it's going to take longer, but I strongly recommend, you start with that broader approach. What are your goals for the year, period? What are your goals for your legacy? What are your goals for your team? These are all bigger questions. They have nothing at all to do with your product. They have nothing at all to do with marketing or positioning or branding. Later, right? Later that question will be fine. But we had started talking about how do you open up the conversation and reposition yourself so that people will willingly choose to follow you. Will stick around with you and take the call with you.
“Let's say you're a media rep. If you ask, “What are your goals for your marketing?” If you're selling some sort of technology, “What are your goals for your user experience? What are your goals for your tech support?” If you ask it in a very narrow way, it becomes too quickly about you and about what you sell. But when you ask it in the broader way, you immediately tap into whatever truly matters to that individual. And then you're talking their language and you're showing them that you care about what matters to them.” – Deb Calvert · [11:40]
Deb Calvert:
And let me go ahead and explain and why. When we ask very narrow questions, let's say you're a media rep. If you ask, “What are your goals for your marketing?” If you're selling some sort of technology, “What are your goals for your user experience? What are your goals for your tech support?” If you ask it in a very narrow way, it becomes too quickly about you and about what you sell. But when you ask it in the broader way, you immediately tap into whatever truly matters to that individual. And then you're talking their language and you're showing them that you care about what matters to them. And you're much more likely to be in that space of tapping into what they truly value. That's where you motivate them and inspire them and get their attention and cause them to think about why they ought to spend more time with you.
How to Leverage Open-ended Questions to Spark Buyer Curiosity and Drive Sales Conversations · [12:36]
Will Barron:
I feel like if someone asked me a more open-ended question, especially the top of a conversation, I'm more likely to go, “Oh,” and take a step back and actually think about the answer as opposed to, “I'm not interested in that,” which is obviously the response that a lot of sales people will get as soon as they do manage to jump on the phone or so on, because the buyer probably feels like they're being sold out, influenced. And I feel like, yeah, as you were saying that, Deb, I feel like I'd be going, “Oh, maybe I need to think about my goals and write this stuff down. And hopefully this person can give me some insights.” That's the change in dynamic that I would feel in that conversation.
Deb Calvert:
It is. And I always appreciate how practical you make the conversations. But I'm going to go a little impractical here for just a moment because I think it's so important for the mindset piece of this. And I'm going to look away from you because I have a quote that I cut out of a newspaper something like 30 years ago. And I have my file organiser. I had taped it on there, and so I can keep that file organised there for this quote, but I want to make sure I quote it very, very quickly. I mean, very correctly. And the quote is from a guy named Daniel H Burnham. It says, “Make no little plans. They have no magic to stir men's blood. Make big plans, aim high in hope and work.”
Deb Calvert:
Okay. So what does this have to do with what we're talking about? Well, it is the same thing. It's this bigger everything. Bigger plans, bigger ideas, bigger hopes and dreams. That's where people get inspired. We talk about the little stuff. Let me illustrate it this way. Dr. Martin Luther king Jr., he said, “I have a dream.” And his whole speech, what people remember is the dream. He didn't say, “I have a list of measurable objectives.” And it would not have had the same magic if he had said it that way.
Deb Calvert:
It's okay to indulge in that, especially early on. That's what captivates people and gets their interest. That's where you are going to be able to drive a conversation, a relationship, a sale, is if you first get people on board with you. Get them in the car with you and then invite them to navigate, but stay in the driver's seat.
How to Nudge a Sales Conversation Forward · [14:55]
Will Barron:
So what do we do then, Deb, next? Hopefully the buyer now has, they've come out with some spiel and they've poured their heart out to us, and we've got a gist, an idea now of both the business objectives and perhaps some of their own personal objectives as well. And how they align and intermingle. How do we, considering the conversation here is about being in control of the conversation. How do we then nudge the conversation forward rather than just doing essentially psychoanalyst on this individual and charging them some kind of psychiatry fee after the fact?
Deb Calvert:
I'm going to give you and your listeners the very best example that they can relate to. And then I'll break it down a little bit. You do this really well. Anybody who listens to your podcast, without perhaps knowing it, already has the answer to that question you just asked. This is how you do it. You pay attention to what Will's as the driver of the conversations with the guests he brings onto his podcast.
Will Barron:
Let me just say this, Deb, and to interject here. I have no idea what you're going to say. So whatever I'm doing, I'm doing it by accident and inadvertently.
“This is what smart sellers do. They learn, they adapt and they follow some of their better instincts. They also are humble enough to do those adjustments along the way.” – Deb Calvert · [16:25]
Deb Calvert:
Well, you're paying attention to your sum of your good instincts, and you've probably learned along the way. I bet if you went back and listened to some of your early podcasts, you might even be horrified. I know I was when I listened to some of the first podcasts or sales calls that I had a chance to play back. But this is what smart sellers do. They learn, they adapt and they follow some of their better instincts. They also are humble enough to do those adjustments along the way.
“First of all, they (good salespeople) don't plan ahead for every single question that they're going to ask. If you script your questions, you might as well not have your buyer in the passenger seat, navigating at all.” – Deb Calvert · [16:55]
Deb Calvert:
So what a good salesperson or a good podcaster or a good friend who converses with you, what we do in conversations that takes us step by step to a place where we're leading in a place where we're using questions effectively. They do a couple things. First of all, they don't plan ahead for every single question that they're going to ask. If you script your questions, you might as well not have your buyer in the passenger seat, navigating at all. In fact, that's exactly how they'll feel. They'll feel completely marginalised and they'll feel like it's very robotic and generic. And it's very disinteresting to them.
Deb Calvert:
Many podcasters, to keep my comparison going here, many podcasters send a list of questions. In fact, you can tell, send the same questions to everybody who's ever on their podcast. And I guess some guests actually are okay with that, or maybe even like it, because it helps them to feel more prepared. I think after that initial security blanket aspect of it wears off, they also eventually feel, and certainly listeners feel, that it's a little bit boring, and they're not really getting a full amount of information, and it doesn't create opportunities for real, genuine, personalised, relevant, meaningful dialogue.
Deb Calvert:
Okay. So first thing is that they don't ask scripted question. Second thing, it's hard, but you listen. You listen to the answer for every question that you asked, and that's a skill and it requires some skill building, but you'll notice as you are listening, to Will, as an example of what I'm describing here. He doesn't ask a question that's unrelated to what I've said. Now, maybe sometimes you have to do that because maybe sometimes guests or buyers get way off course and you've got to rein them in with a question that's different from what they've just said. But more often, your question is a natural one. It drills down around something that they've said it, but builds on what they've just said. For example, your question was, “Okay, that's what we do first. Now tell us, Deb, what do we do next?” It's natural for conversation to flow in that way.
Deb Calvert:
And the third thing is that as they're listening, and as they're drilling down, and as they're creating this two-way dialogue that it's a back and a forth, they also do advance the conversation. Will's last question did a good job with that, too. And people are going to start to think we plan this, Will, because [inaudible 00:19:19], but we didn't. But what I mean by advancing the conversation and building on the conversation and directing, driving, steering the conversation without being manipulative or rude in the way that you do it, is that you select out the pieces that are most useful to the goal, the destination that you want to reach. You don't ignore the other important pieces. If I had said something very big, very emotional and took us on a different tangent, you'd have been okay with that. But since our topic is, how do you stay in the driver's seat, and why is that important in a sales conversation, you extracted some of what I had said before and decided to emphasise that as we move forward.
Will Barron:
Okay, Deb, tell me this. What is your favourite food?
Deb Calvert:
Now there's a tangent, right?
Will Barron:
[crosstalk 00:20:15] I was only joking. [crosstalk 00:20:16]
Deb Calvert:
Where's he going with that? Even though it's a fun question and I'm laughing as he asks it, I still had that [crosstalk 00:20:22]
Will Barron:
Well, it's because you are listening, right? You are actively paying attention. And you're right, I don't send questions across. What I do is typical. We went back on forth. I like to have a headline and a place where we're going to, essentially. And what I try and do in the podcast is, you highlighted it there and this is something I do consciously do, Deb. That is I try and break it down into steps. So at the end of the show, we can wrap it up with, here are the four steps to do X or Y.
Will Barron:
Now some podcasts, when you have someone who's just got a really motivational story, sometimes the story's good enough. But I even find when I interview those kind of people, we've had Olympic athletes on the show, I've had astronauts on the show, I've had UFC fighters on the show, I find that just throwing this story back up for the 17 [inaudible 00:21:11] time that week. And so I do try and break things up the best I can with them as well.
The Benefits of Separating Sales Conversations into Different Sections · [21:18]
Will Barron:
But is that something that we should be thinking about in our sales conversations, that the conversation is in multiple parts and we know that we're making progress, because we can say, well, we've gone from getting the big picture. Now we've narrowed things down to part B, C, D, E, and F is perhaps we ask the question, “Does it make sense to jump on board? Have another call? Bring in your partners?” Should we be thinking of a sales call that we're trying to stay in control of as having separate sections?
Deb Calvert:
Absolutely. So we're in the car, we're driving to our destination, you've got to have things along the way that you're checking off. Am I going the right way? Do I have enough gas? Am I able to make it or do I need to stop for the night? So that yeah, sure, sure. What I really like about this question is that it's making me think about what the typical salesperson does that isn't that. And having those criteria or those chapters worked out, I think that's really smart.
Deb Calvert:
Too often, sellers make those checkoffs. Is this a qualified buyer? Did I hear a hint of any need? Like have they ever used or even heard about my product? And do they seem to be giving me a little smile or something that's at least a little bit affirming, and then I'm going to be able to dive in. So we're already doing this, but are we doing it in the right way? I love this question. Yeah. Yes. The answer is yes, people should do that.
“I believe that you have to open a relationship before you can ever close a sale.” – Deb Calvert · [23:05]
Deb Calvert:
So that's what they shouldn't do. Let's talk about what they should do instead, very much in a better way. So I believe, and you'll find people who have different answers. I believe that you have to open a relationship before you can ever close a sale. So let's call step one, that we've established enough rapport because of my very broad questions and my true interest in you and understanding what you value and where your head's at right now. That's the first thing. And it doesn't have to take a long time. We know from all sorts of research on what causes people to trust each other and whatnot, that that can be built quickly. So you want to be effective and efficient using questions to get there.
Deb Calvert:
And then next as I'm narrowing down, I think the next thing is partially qualifying, but it's not qualifying the way BANT or some other training out there would do it. That's further down in the funnel, in my opinion. The next thing though, it's going to feel a little bit like qualifying to you, but you don't want it to feel that way to the buyer, but it is about now shifting the conversation, drilling down in the conversation to help them understand a little bit more about your product without you selling it.
Deb Calvert:
I call these in discover, I call these solution and example questions, and it's about, what are your thoughts about, and tell me a little bit about the contrast between where things are now and where you want them to be. It's enriching the story. It's getting them to start selling themselves in a way, but it's giving you tremendous more insight and you'll pick up some things that qualify for you. Which parts of my product service will they want? Which ones don't they want? And their storytelling as you invite some very broad information is going to serve you really, really well. So long as you're listening and can pick up on it.
Will Barron:
I like this idea of contrast. Have you read, Nancy, I think it's Nancy Duarte's books on presentations.
Deb Calvert:
I have met Nancy. Now, I'm sure I've read her books because usually when I meet people, I like to read their books, but it's not … I think I told you before, I read one or two business books every week. I used to read one a day. So tell me the names, maybe I'll [crosstalk 00:25:15] or a key theme.
Will Barron:
I'll link them all in the show notes. I'm getting a lot of value out of them. So I don't typically read traditional sales books. Obviously, we've got yours on the desk here so I love that. But I tend focus on books around sales and I feel like I learn more from them that is then applicable to a sales role, because I think a lot of sales books point out the obvious and try and sell you on some kind of training on the back of it.
Will Barron:
But with that said, Nancy's books, a big part of presentation techniques that she teaches is to contrast either this is what it was like and this is what it could be like, and future pacing people, or this is how things have always been done, this is how things could be done and going back and forth. And that's how she reckons that. For example, she uses Martin Luther King's presentation. She breaks it down and it's here now there's the problems, here's the future, here's things in the past, and going back and forth between all these different opportunities to contrast where we are right now, where we could be, if things go right where we could be, if things go wrong.
Will Barron:
And I find that's really valuable in my own sales calls and the training that we do as well, Deb. As you use the storytelling, it starts to paint a real picture in the mind of the buyers, rather than saying our product is going to do X, Y, Z. We're starting to paint this story in the buyer's mind using contrast at this point in the conversation of, they think our product could do X, Y, Z, and if they don't do anything, they think that the future is going to turn out this way.
Getting the Buyer to Buy Into Having a Conversation Before Asking Them to Buy · [26:50]
Will Barron:
So how can we get the buyer to think about all of this themselves so we're not putting words in their mouth by perhaps asking questions that allow this contrast and, and sharing of future, the different futures? How can we draw that out of the buyer so again, they're painting the picture and we are listening to it, rather than us saying, we can do X and if you don't do it, you're going to get Y?
Deb Calvert:
I mean, and that is so smart because then you're getting buy-in before you ever ask for the buy. It's their idea, not yours. And in customer experience research, this is called, they're participating in creating what they want. This is the E question in the acronym discover. I call it an example question because that's what we're after. And its purpose is to give people the same sort of experience that when you go to buy a new car, that experience is that they put you behind the wheel of the car. They're so much in a hurry to get you to take a test drive because they know you're going to smell the new car interior. You're going to feel that lumbar support. You're going to love how the cup holder's positioned. It's going to be so different from what you're driving right now in positive ways.
Will Barron:
Deb, I think me and you buy cars differently, if you are really interested in lumbar support and cup holders.
Deb Calvert:
That's the purpose of the test drive. And then afterwards, yes, they're going to pop the top and they know you've already done a lot of research about, you want to V8 in this one, you had that power as you accelerated. Yeah. Yeah. But yes, I'm very much about comfort in my recent purchase.
Will Barron:
Sorry to interrupt you there.
Deb Calvert:
That's great. There's the age difference coming through. I even like car colour, Will. So yes, so you can't do that unless you sell a product where they get a hands on demo. You've got to do it in their mind instead. And a question about contrast will help do that. So you ask a question like, “Tell me the difference between the experience that you've been having with your X, Y, Z, and what you would consider the ideal experience.” You get them to begin imagining that.
Deb Calvert:
Or you give them a little bit of a something like, “What would it be like for you if, instead of having to have somebody on your team do transcription, you could have 95% accurate transcription with AI. What would that be like for you?” And then of course the follow up is, how important would that be to you? You want to know and magnify that value. So, whatever it is that you have to offer and that you know is likely going to be important, you're asking them to give that contrast and be able to fully feel and experience it as much as they can.
Will Barron:
So at the top of the conversation, Deb, we've built some rapport, we've asked these big open ended questions, the buyer went, “Oh, this is not what I was expecting from this call.” And there's a tonne of value, and perhaps we're helping them refine what their goals are, to a certain extent on the call, then we start to compare and contrast what life would be like hitting those goals and not hitting those goals. And hopefully at some point our product or service is now nearly in the picture, even though we're not perhaps talking about it directly. How do we then stay in control of the conversation?
How Salespeople Can Stay in Control of the Conversation and Prove to the Buyer That Their Product Will Fix Their Pain Points · [30:10]
Will Barron:
And perhaps at this point, I don't know how many minutes we are into the conversation at this point, but how do we start to perhaps steer it towards, to gauge a reaction of whether they think that our product is suitable for them from a perspective of ignoring banter. We assume that most of that has been ticked off, because we've done our research before picking up the phone. So we know that they're somewhat qualified. How do we steer them towards now taking that future reality that they want to move towards and having our product as perhaps the bridge to help them get there.
Deb Calvert:
Let me pick up two threads and then I'll answer that question. So you listed a lot of benefits that are really important that we're building up here, but you left one out that's especially important. And that is, as they're telling these stories, as they're making these contrast, you're also overcoming any price objection that would've come automatically later on. When they ask about price, it's going to be offset by all this value that's been building up. And it really is true, this actually happens. So you're also supplanting price as the primary consideration in their mind. Okay.
Deb Calvert:
And then the second thing you said was who knows how long we are into this conversation by now. So I want to offset that and let people know that this is actually a much more efficient way of selling. It's effective. You're going to get more yeses more often. You're going to have a longer conversation right now, but not hours like you might be imagining that it would be. Purposeful, good, well crafted, good sequence in your questions, makes everything happen faster, ultimately, including the yes, the advancing of this sale to a yes.
Deb Calvert:
Okay. So how do you do it? So now we have gotten them to tell us what their goals are. We've gotten them to tell us these contrasts between current state and desired future state. We've gotten some indication of value. What matters most? Why does it matter? How important is it? And now that we're moving down this narrowing, we're at the place now where we're bridging between probably value that's on the table and the decision process. We need to understand it and begin getting them to think about it. so we've asked some questions like what are your thoughts about, and what would that mean to you? And give me the difference between. So value again.
Deb Calvert:
So you told me what's most important to you is. What's it going to take internally for you to make that happen? And what will your primary criteria be as that decision's made, for you and for others? And how is my product stacking up here as you evaluate it based on these criteria? And what have we not talked about that would seal the deal and make that happen for you and for others inside the company? Okay. So, now we're in the realm of selling, but still we're getting information and it's the buyer who is navigating as you steer with your questions.
How to Drive a Sales Conversation into a Close · [33:01]
Will Barron:
So what's the final step in this process? I feel we've got four steps so far, Deb. Is it always to ask a question like, does it make sense to do X, Y, or Z, and get a definite yes. Or is the opportunity to go back to open-ended questions? What was the end goal with all of this process?
“But at some point, you need to know yes or no. Being caught up in endless continuances and maybes doesn't serve you or them well at all.” – Deb Calvert · [33:45]
Deb Calvert:
Yeah. We do want to get to a place where there's a yes or a no. It may be in the same sales call, it may not be. It depends on the complexity of your sale, of course. So, we've been sort of talking about the discovery process at this point. For certain kinds of products, you could bridge that straight into a close. For others, there are going to be more meetings and demos and timeframes that come into play. But at some point, yes, you need to know yes or no. Being caught up in endless continuances and maybes doesn't serve you or them well at all.
Will Barron:
So is it fair to say then that we are starting with big, audacious questions and then slowly, perhaps even get more strategic with the questions and they're getting narrow and more closed as we go towards the end of the conversation?
“They're getting more narrow in focus and more about you and the need as it does now fit your product. So the big need is, in my company we have committed to. And my role in that is that I'm responsible for. And that means I'm going to need. And your product does. And now let's make it happen.” – Deb Valvert · [34:10]
Deb Calvert:
Yeah, absolutely. They're getting more narrow in focus and more about you and the need as it does now fit your product. So the big need is, in my company we have committed to. And my role in that is that I'm responsible for. And that means I'm going to need. And your product does. And now let's make it happen.
Will Barron:
That could be on a poster, Deb. Literally what you just said then should be on a poster as a general framework for people as they're on conversations to prompt them to move down this funnel of questioning.
Deb Calvert:
Well, you call it the question sequence funnel and discover questions, but you're right, I need to revise it because that was better than what's in the book.
Will Barron:
I would have a poster like that. It'd be something that you could even have it on the desk sitting here. But that would be a cool thing to have, especially if you've got your little office cubicle, especially if you're doing inside sales. Something like that could be a real subtle, useful prompt for people to just subconsciously encourage them to keep moving forward and making progress and staying in control of the sale.
What To Do When You’re trying To Be a True Inspirational Leader But the Prospect is Still Treating You Like a Pesky Salesperson · [35:19]
Will Barron:
There's two things I want to quiz you on to wrap up the show, Deb. One is completely off topic so I'll save that for in a second. But what do we do when we are trying to be the true inspirational leader? We're trying to help our buyer navigate us towards a place where everybody wins. We deliver our product, they get an incredible service that far outweighs in the value that they get, that the price that they're paying for it. What do we do when the buy still is retreating, goes like a pesky salesperson, even though we are pretty much doing everything right, what kind of questions can we ask that are perhaps a hard restart that allow us to re-grab hold of any control that we possibly can?
Deb Calvert:
I was listening to some chorus recordings for a newer client last week, and I loved this example. So I'll give you a fresh new example. This seller had done a lot of things right. And there were two buyers, this was all in a Zoom meeting and it was the third or fourth meeting. And it was still very much the buyer having all those stereotypes in mind, literally saying things like, “I know that's probably going to work out better for you commission wise, but,” and always assuming the worst kinds of statements that were not deserved by this particular seller.
Deb Calvert:
And so finally the salesperson, I mean, I don't think this was made up or acting at all, but the seller eventually just said, “Okay, look, I work really hard at not being like every stereotypical sales person out there, and you're giving me a really hard time. Am I ever going to be able to earn your trust and be viewed differently?” And he just, and he didn't say anything else. He just like froze and looked into the camera at the end of that. And I watched the buyer get really, really uncomfortable. And the other person, the other buyer who hadn't been acting that way was so embarrassed.
Will Barron:
[crosstalk 00:37:12] watching, yeah?
Deb Calvert:
Yeah. And it broke things down. And the buyer acknowledged, yeah, I have been kind of hard on you and maybe that's not fair. And would you give me another chance? I'm sorry I was acting that way.” I don't know if it'll work in every situation, but a moment of real, that came from a place of integrity, I think, and a moment of just real … It requires confidence. It requires leadership to do something like that. And it was effective.
Be Assertive, Not Aggressive and Take Control of a Sales Conversation · [37:45]
Will Barron:
Is there a level of assertiveness here that … We're doing the job. We're doing the job the best we can. We're being professional. We're trying to help the buyer. It's going to be clear if you're trying to just rip someone off. It's going to be clear through your subconscious, body language, and all that stuff that we can talk about in another episode. We're coming from the place here that hopefully the audience do have integrity what they do. They're listening to a show like this, right, because they want to improve their professional skills. How much of this is being, I guess, how can I put it? How much of it is being just candid and open and honest with the buyer versus being assertive and saying, “Hey, look, you are not being professional here. And I'm trying my best.”
Deb Calvert:
I do think that assertiveness is appropriate. Let's make sure everybody understands that assertiveness means equally that my needs are being met and your needs are being met. Different from aggressiveness where I begin to trample on your needs because I'm so forceful with my own. So it requires this balance, which in essence is what we've been talking about all along. I ask questions. I listen. I have an interest before I try to be interesting. There is some give and take here.
Deb Calvert:
But too many sellers do the other extreme and they're so deferential. So there's aggressive, there's assertive, and then there's passive and you're not supposed to be passive. That's where you're not in the driver's seat and you're expecting the buyer to do their job and yours too. So assertive is a very good summary of what we've been talking about here.
Will Barron:
I'm glad you said that, Deb. And the reason I asked that is we've got thousands and thousands of sales assessments over at salesman.org now of our sales code assessment. And we find that the majority of salespeople are either passive or aggressive on the as assessment, and the accuracy of assessments is a bit wishy washy with very specific terms like this.
Will Barron:
But there is clear correlation between the people who drive the most revenue and who hit the most commissions each year being slap bang in the middle of being assertive. So you kind of framed it up the way that we frame it up in our training as well. And it makes total sense, right? Because if you are unable to ask for the business and your needs are getting met and their needs are getting met, nothing's going to happen if you try and bully someone. They're going to have buyer's remorse, even if they do buy, and you're going to have people complaining, customer service are going to get hounded.
Will Barron:
And of course, if you're on the far end of all this, and you're just passive and you are in the backseat while someone else is navigating and driving. You've got no control and you've no idea. If you're in the backseat, you're not doing your job right because you're not adding any value to the conversation. You're just there along for the ride.
Deb Calvert:
Yeah, it's true. That's not leadership and that's not what buyers want. So I want to underline that everything we're talking about, it's not just about what works in selling, it's about what buyers want from you. So feel emboldened by that.
Actionable Tips For Keeping Multiple Conversation Threads in Your Head and Add Value to a Sales Conversation · [40:50]
Will Barron:
I've got one final question, Deb, and this is something that it's totally left field and nothing to do with anything we've talked about so far, but it's a skill that you've done about five times in the interview so far, because I've asked some pretty average questions and you've pulled them back from their brain and given really good answers. But you're very good at holding seemingly multiple threads of a conversation in your head at once and multiple times, you've said, “Well, I'll answer this then I'll answer this.” And by the time you've answered the first part, I forgot the second part that I asked you originally. And you've got all this wrapped up in your brain. And is there any strategies to that? Is there anything you are doing to keep track of all these different threads of conversation? Because I feel that could be really valuable to sales people, especially if you ask a big open ended question and the buyer comes at you with seven different opportunities for you to continue the conversation, keeping track of three or four of them, I find personally, is difficult.
“It is not true that buyers are going to feel like you're not listening to them or that you're not making eye contact with them if you take notes. In fact, buyers like it, they feel important when you take notes.” – Deb Calvert · [41:48]
Deb Calvert:
Well, I think note taking helps. So, if the next thing I tell you seems daunting, just know that you can take notes. It is not true that buyers are going to feel like you're not listening to them or that you're not making eye contact with them if you take notes. In fact, buyers like it, they feel important when you take notes. So it's a good thing and it will help you track those different threads that you want to respond to.
Deb Calvert:
The second thing is that it's a discipline and it all goes back to what we have talked about. It's about listening. So I'll provide one tip since that's what you're asking for. And I love how you always get things to the practical level. One way that you can listen at this level and retain more information is by dumping the other stuff out of your head. Be confident enough not to be worried that if you don't respond right now, which means you might interrupt, or if you don't respond because it's fresh in your mind and your passion is going to come out if you answer that one thing right now. Those are fallacies.
Deb Calvert:
So to dump things out of your mind means that you will not be trying to craft your answer. Have confidence that it's going to come. You made it a little note about it mentally or on paper. The answer's going to come when the time is right. Listen for what else is there.
“Don't listen for what's similar. It will make you rude and it will make you narrowly focused. Listen in every conversation you ever have for what's not familiar, for what's different, for what is coming out a little unlike what you already expected or are used to. That's where the real gold is because that's where you get to learn more and it's where you're going to be dignifying the other person who's speaking.” – Deb Calvert · [43:15]
Deb Calvert:
And the other part of that tip is different from what most people do. We mostly listen for and respond to what's similar or what's immediate. That's why we interrupt because we think we have to catch the one thing before another thing gets piled onto it. Not true. Don't listen for what's similar. It will make you rude and it will make you narrowly focused. Listen in every conversation you ever have for what's not familiar, for what's different, for what is coming out a little unlike what you already expected or are used to. That's where the real gold is because that's where you get to learn more and it's where you're going to be dignifying the other person who's speaking.
Will Barron:
That makes total sense. I love that, Deb. And just for context, I know the audience will get to see it here. So I start off the show with a few questions, just so I'm on track, and then I will write down BANT. Make it clear, choose to follow, questions, leader, navigate, objections. So objections are something that I wanted to come back to, but we're not going to have time to come back to. So that's how I try and keep track of this.
Will Barron:
But I was just amazed the way you were doing a better job of it than me. I don't think you're writing notes there. I think you're just doing it all mentally, and that's a real skill. Clearly you're just crushing it and you're an expert in asking questions and answering them. You're proving that the case study is perfect of yourself, Deb. But I just thought that was interesting for the audience as a little tidbit to add on the end of the show.
Parting Thoughts: Deb’s Books and How to Get in Touch with Her · [44:30]
Will Barron:
And with that, Deb, I guess the next step very clearly for the audience is to buy both the books that we've mentioned so far. So tell us more about both of them and where we can find more about you as well.
Deb Calvert:
Well, Discover Questions Get You Connected is now seven years old. It continues to show up on lots of lists like HubSpots, they curate ratings from Amazon. And more recently it was on another list of top 10, top 20 most highly sales books of all time for sales people. Things like that. I'm very proud of that book. It's based on research with buyers and observations of calls with sellers in the field or on the phone. So it's sounds very wonky and academic, but hopefully as most of those reviews will tell you, it's also very much about examples and clear ways that you can improve your question asking and rapport building skills.
Deb Calvert:
And the other book also based on buyer research is called Stop Selling and Start Leading. It's based on a body of research with B2B buyers. It gave them choices of behaviours that they could have in sellers and ask them if they would like those and if they'd respond by buying. And it turns out that the ones they like are behaviours more often associated with leaders than with sellers, hence the conclusion that you want to be a leader as you're working with buyers.
Will Barron:
Perfect. And I want to [inaudible 00:45:49] both available on Amazon. I link to them both in the show note to this episode as well. Deb, just plug your homepage whilst we're at it, and tell us a little bit also about the sales experts channel.
Deb Calvert:
Okay. So my company is called People First Productivity Solutions, peoplefirstps.com. Tonnes of stuff there. I like to give stuff away. And the sales experts channel is my pet project, my give back to the sales community, where I invite lots of other sales experts around the world. We've had over 300 writers, authors, bloggers, podcasters researchers, thought leaders come in and contribute inspirational and educational content. We've got 70,000 people over there. So if you're not there, you might find that there's a tonne. The salesexpertschannel.com.
Will Barron:
Perfect. Again, I'll link to all this in the show notes over at salesman.org. [inaudible 00:46:38] Deb. And thank you again. I really enjoy, I don't say this to everyone and usually I would say this off air after the show, but I really enjoy chatting with you. There's never a question that I can't ask you. And without Deb, thanks again for the insights and for joining us on the Salesman podcast.
This Is the Future Of Sales - Don't Get Left Behind | Selling Made Simple
Aug 19, 2022
In just seven years, the SaaS industry has grown from $31.5 billion to an astounding $171.9 billion. And by 2024, it’s on track to reach $369.4 billion!
For sales reps like you, the writing on the walls is this—no matter what you sell today, you’ll be selling SaaS in your next sales role. And that my friends is a good thing. Today we’re talking about why, and what you can do to take advantage of this massive sales industry shift.
Let’s get real here. The job you have right now? You probably won’t have it forever. Businesses go under. Goals and needs change. And salary objectives shift. That’s okay! The average person will change their job five to seven times during their working life.
What matters, though, is how prepared you are for that next job. And as a sales professional, it’s incredibly likely that your next position is going to be in an SaaS company. So in order to make that transition as smooth as possible, you owe it to yourself to find out what this industry is all about. And most importantly, what does working in it mean for you?
Alrighty, so starting out, let’s hit a basic question…
1. What Is SaaS?
Well, SaaS is short for “software as a service.” Basically, it’s a model where businesses license software to customers in exchange for a subscription, be it monthly, yearly, or any other timeframe. These businesses also “deliver” the software in a sense by hosting it over an internet connection.
As a result, customers don’t have to install via a CD, have a tech crew come in and set up their system, or engage in any other cumbersome physical onboarding. Connection is on-demand. And with just a few clicks, customers can start using the product for their business.
Think of apps like Dropbox, HubSpot, or cloud-based Microsoft Office 365
Okay so the question is…
2. Why Will You Be Selling It
Well to put it simply, companies across the world are making the shift to this model because it offers some very real and very lucrative benefits. For instance…
A) It Brings In More Revenue
It brings in more revenue. And it brings in more consistent revenue. See, an SaaS model is built on recurring subscriptions. If a customer doesn’t cancel their subscription, they’ll be billed again for the next cycle. And that means the default is staying a customer.
Compare that to the traditional model. The default after a purchase is nothing. Because it takes work for that customer to buy again.
So as long as an SaaS company is keeping its buyers happy, those customers won’t go through the hassle of canceling.
And given our tendency toward the path of least resistance, that often means an SaaS company will bring in more money over time compared to traditional models. Plus, that revenue is consistent, making it easier to plan ahead.
B) Allows for Automatic Upsells
Allows for automatic upsells. SaaS products typically have multiple tiers to choose from. The more you pay, the more functionality and features you gain access to.
So as an SaaS customer’s needs grow and expand, they can seamlessly choose to upgrade to a new tier. No searching for a new provider. No going through a whole new lengthy sales cycle. Instead, they can make the switch with just the click of a button. Easy as that.
C) Higher Business Valuations
Higher business valuations. Now, there are two components to this idea.
First, SaaS is expanding. Remember what I said before? About SaaS growing 5X over the last seven years? And nearly 12X from 2015 to 2024? That means the future is SaaS. And businesses are valuated according to that trend.
Secondly, and this might be above our heads as just knuckle-dragging salespeople. But we sell what drives a company’s shareholder value. The easier it is for US to sell, the better a company is going to fare. And the more it’s going to be worth.
3. Why This Shift Is Great
Why is this shift great for you as a sales professional? What does all this mean for on-the-ground benefits?
Well, first and foremost, there’s…
A) Long-Term Residual Commissions
Long-term residual commissions. If your mouth isn’t watering already at the thought here, it should be.
Many SaaS businesses reward their salespeople with commissions that continue over the course of a customer’s relationship with the product. So if a client stays subscribed for, say, 10 years, you will continually earn a commission for that lifetime.
Just imagine, a single sale can lead to a decade of recurring payouts. Sounds like heaven! The only trick here is that the better you sell them on your product, the more likely they’ll be to stick around. So it’s still worth putting in the effort up front and focusing on your skills.
B) An Easier Closing Cycle
For SaaS products, most customers get the majority of their info from automated funnels. Ebooks, case studies, how-tos, in-depth articles—this is where your clients will dive deep into what your product can do AND what they can do with it.
As a result, you don’t have to do as much selling as with traditional models.
On top of that, implementation is as easy as a click of a button. And the ability to split costs on a month-by-month basis lowers the biggest barrier to buying—expense.
And you know what that means—it’s easier to close!
C) Clearer Selling Points
SaaS products are, by their very nature, dependent on the internet. And that dependence brings with it a few very clear selling points that you can use to nudge buyers towards that “yes.”
For instance, many SaaS products are designed to work in tandem with other solutions. For instance, HubSpot integrates with over a hundred different apps to simplify automating your business, updating your contacts, and much more.
That dependence on internet connectivity also allows for regular software updates and hassle-free cancellations.
And these, like integrations, make selling your product easier. Giving you more time and the opportunity for more sales success.
We all know the stereotype of the dodgy used car salesman. But contrary to popular belief, sales isn't about tricking people into buying. Instead, it's about giving customers the solution to their problem (whether they know they have the problem or not).
The tricky part for salespeople is finding out if their solution is a good fit for their buyer's needs.
Is that buyer actually struggling with a problem you can solve? Do their needs align with what you can provide? Are they equipped with the resources to use your solution correctly? Discovery calls are designed to provide this invaluable information and more.
With this discovery info, you can better qualify leads, craft the perfect sales pitch and close more deals.
This guide will help you uncover your buyer's actual needs and home in on their underlying business problem with a simple step-by-step sales process. We'll be looking at nine open-ended discovery questions along with 12 powerful follow-up questions.
What Are Discovery Questions?
Discovery questions are the questions you ask sales leads during a discovery call. Of course, you've likely already learned a bit about the prospect before jumping on the phone. But your discovery call will help you fill in the details about their situation and create a clearer picture of their needs.
The answers to your discovery questions let you determine several things.
If your product offering can solve the needs of a sales lead.
If you can deliver your product within the buyer's constraints (i.e., timeline, budget, etc.).
The best way to pitch your product.
If the prospect's answers line up well during your discovery call, then they'll move on to the next phase of the sales process. If not, you can redirect them through another nurturing campaign. Or they'll drop out from your sales funnel entirely.
So, what makes a sales discovery question effective at uncovering your sales lead's genuine business problems?
Principles of Great Sales Discovery Questions
The types of discovery questions (and how you ask them) determine the quality of the information you extract on your call. With the right discovery call questions, you can get to the heart of your prospect's needs. The wrong one? You may lose the buyer's trust and sink the deal entirely.
So, what do great sales discovery calls look like?
They're Open-Ended – Avoiding “yes or no's” gets the sales lead talking and lets them avoid feeling “trapped” into an answer.
They're Informed – Do your research beforehand. Novice-level questions torpedo your credibility in an instant. But informed ones prove you're a professional worthy of trust.
They Move the Needle – Each question you ask should always take you one step closer to qualifying or disqualifying. They allow sales reps to dig deeper and move the entire sales process forward. There's value in building rapport, but time is precious. So don't waste it on filler. Try to keep questions in line with proven frameworks like MEDDPICC.
They're Ripe for Follow-Up Questions – A discovery call should be a conversation, not an interrogation for your prospect. They should add value to the potential buyer. Asking relevant follow-up questions lets you naturally uncover pain points and hints for creating a perfectly catered sales pitch. Plus, it helps build rapport which will help your deals close faster.
9 Qualifying Discovery Questions for Sales
Asking the right discovery call questions is key to uncovering the information you need to create an irresistible sales pitch.
So lets get practical. Below are nine discovery questions you should always use on your discovery calls. You'll also find 12 follow-up questions you can use to extract even more valuable info.
1. “Tell Me About Your Company & Your Role”
Once you've broken the ice, it's time for some sales discovery. This question lets the potential buyer take the lead and ease into the conversation at their own pace. Best of all, people love talking about themselves. So they'll often be excited to share.
Besides building rapport, you'll also be uncovering hints about the prospective buyer. Hints like do they have decision-making power in this deal? What areas of the business do they oversee? And what difficulties have they been hitting recently?
Great Follow-Up Question:
“What specific metrics are you responsible for?” – Perfect for aligning your pitch to what's specifically essential to their role. Plus, it may help uncover their decision-making power along the way.
2. “Tell Me About Your Upcoming Goals”
This question is an excellent lead-in to get more information specifically related to the prospects business needs. It's a fundamental discovery call question. For example, are they looking for a way to save on costs? Streamline their processes? Boost their customer satisfaction?
Plus, the open-endedness of it keeps the conversation moving forward without sounding pushy.
Great Follow-Up Question:
“What is your timeline for achieving those goals?”– The buyer's answer to this question lets you determine if the implementation for your product matches up with their timeline needs.
3. “What's Keeping You From Achieving These Goals?”
It may be vague. But by keeping things general, you'll be able to extract which problems are the most pressing for the decision maker. Along the way, you can determine if they're struggling in areas related to your product offerings.
This question also leads the buyer into a “challenge-oriented” state of mind. The more concrete those challenges become in their heads, the more valuable your product will seem if it can solve them and the more likely you'll be to move forward in the sales process.
Great Follow-Up Question:
“Why are you having those problems?”– The answer here helps identify if their current solution is working and if yours can help.
4. “What Happens if These Problems Go Unresolved?”
Setting up the “what if” scenario should be a go-to in your sales toolbox when talking with the decision maker. It solidifies the risks involved in letting this problem go. It underscores the challenges the prospect is facing. And if the consequences are dire, it makes your solution to their problem that much more appealing.
Beyond that, this question also lets you gauge the buyer's urgency, whether you need to increase that urgency in your final pitch and their real pain points.
Great Follow-Up Question:
“What would success look like exactly?”– This follow-up helps you determine if their expectations are realistic and if you can help—both vital for deciding whether to qualify or disqualify.
5. “Who Else Is Involved in Choosing a Solution?”
One of the essential aspects of any qualification framework is determining the authority of your contact. Do they have decision-making power? Or are they just the gatekeeper who reports back to the actual authority?
Rather than asking, “Who's really in charge here?” this question lets you uncover that information without eroding the rapport with your current contact.
Great Follow-Up Questions:
“Do you already have specific criteria crafted for choosing a solution”– The holy grail of qualifying and disqualifying information. Some buyers won't give up these criteria willingly. But if you've built up a great rapport, you may be able to get access.
“Who created those criteria?”– A subtle hint at who the decision-makers are.
6. “If We Can Find the Right Solution for Your Problem, What Will It Take To Implement The Solution?”
The point of this question is three-fold.
First, this question gives you a clearer idea of the process ahead. What steps will we need to go through to get the deal approved? Which departments will it have to pass through beforehand? The info here will help you nail down a timeline and hint at their authority.
Second, it further connects your product to the idea of solving their underlying problem. And that makes it easier for them to get to “yes.”
And lastly, using the vital “we” language puts you and the buyer on the same team and boosts rapport.
Great Follow-Up Questions:
“What are the main hurdles you see for a smooth implementation?” – This further clarifies the last question and gives you an idea of the potential challenges involved ahead, not just the decision-making process.
“What are your other options for solving this problem?” – This question reveals your competitors or whether the buyer is considering putting the project off. Either way, it'll give you specifics to leverage in your pitch.
7. “What Is Your Implementation Timeline?”
Now we're a bit more in the nitty-gritty. And by this point, you'll have built up a strong rapport, so tackling these details should be acceptable. How much time do we really have here? And is it even feasible?
Here you'll want to be checking for realistic expectations and disqualifying information, too. If the prospects current solution isn't driving some serious pain points, then now is the time to end the discovery call and move on.
Great Follow-Up Question:
“Are you ready to begin solving this today?” – How urgently are they ready to fix this problem? Ideally, you'll want them to be excited about the solution. And if they aren't, it's your job to build that excitement.
8. “What Is Your Approximate Budget?”
Discussing monetary terms can always be tricky. So be sure to leave this question for later in the discovery conversation. Keeping figures ballpark is a great way to soften the blow, too.
That being said, enquiring about the budget is a necessity. If they can't afford the project, then this deal is a non-starter.
Great Follow-Up Question:
“Is the budget owner an ‘executive sponsor'?” – Are there any senior-level employees directly involved? If so, will you be speaking with them too?
9. “How Will This Make Your Life Better?”
Last but not least, it's essential to wrap up your conversations by helping your sales lead envision their future specifically. Will they have more time on their hands? Can they finally start attracting their ideal audience? Will their department be able to boost their efficiency and meet lofty goals?
Get the buyer to think about those benefits. Doing so makes your solution more appealing. It also motivates your sales lead to sell your product more passionately to other stakeholders.
Great Follow-Up Question:
“How can I help make this easy?” – This final question lets the buyer ask you questions and request more information if needed. Plus, it's a great way to continue building rapport.
Learn To Ask the Right Questions
A strategic discovery call does more than just let you see if a sales lead is a good fit for your business. It also allows you to uncover valuable information that can be used to deliver a spot-on sales pitch. For you, that means higher close rates and better commissions.
If you're getting on plenty of sales calls with leads but still struggling to understand what their business problems are, asking these nine discovery questions will help.
How I Do A Full Weeks Sales Activity in 6 Hours 🕑 | Selling Made Simple
Aug 16, 2022
Look, I’m a busy guy. I run a sales training company, produce hours of content each week, run 15-20 weekly training calls, and single-handedly sell 7-figures worth of enterprise level training packages. But I also take my dog on long walks every day. I practice drums each morning for an hour. And my family life is full and fulfilling.
It’s true you don’t have time to do it ALL in sales. But if you prioritize your time for maximum productivity like I do, you can still be highly successful in B2B sales while living your best life. Here’s how.
1. Reverse Engineering
So much time is wasted on tasks that don’t do a damn thing to help you reach your goals. It’s a problem that comes from having the wrong perspective.
Instead of looking forwards to decide what needs to be done to reach your destination, look backwards. Imagine what you want, typically it’s going to be a financial goal. From there, start moving backwards in time. What do you have to do each year that’ll build up to that goal? What about each month? Each day?
Say you want to earn an extra $50k this year. Let’s start there. $50k in commissions equals an extra 30 closed deals. For every closed deal, there are 24 discovery calls that don’t work out. Which means you need 750 discovery calls in a year or about 190 per quarter, 63 per month, and around 15 per week.
And with those numbers in mind, you’ve got EXACTLY the work you need to do each day to reach your goal.
2. Time Blocking
Next up is time blocking.
This is one of my favorites. I’ve even talked about it before.
Essentially, you need to start scheduling your important tasks. Don’t just have a mental to-do list that you’re crossing off throughout the day. Instead, put all the tasks you need to have done into your calendar.
But here’s the most important part—you have to stick to those times. Don’t spend a second more or a second less on the tasks that you schedule. If you waver even just a little from those scheduled times, tasks will start to bleed over into others. And the entire system falls apart.
So schedule it. And stick to it like hell.
3. Paper To-Do
Keeping a paper list with you at all times makes it easy to add to it and cross things out throughout the day, no matter where you are.
Feel free to plug them all into a digital list at the end of the day to keep things organized. I do the same thing with the app Things on iOS.
But there’s something so viscerally satisfying about crossing tasks off one by one.
4. Phone Pruning
This one’s going to hurt. But trust me, it’s worth it.
Get rid of the distractions on your phone. Facebook, WhatsApp, LinkedIn even. If you’re spending non-work time on it, nix it. Now, there are some features out there that make it 10X easier to concentrate while at work. I use the Focus feature on iOS all the time.
But eliminating ANY temptation whatsoever is a powerful way to keep your eye on the ball at all times.
5. The Pomodoro Technique
This technique is surprisingly effective for how simple it really is. Next time you’ve got a task you don’t want to be doing, say cold calling or updating your CRM, commit yourself to it for 25 minutes. That’s it. And then schedule a five minute break.
When you structure your entire day with this technique, something pretty amazing happens—you stop wanting to stop.
I’ve found the hardest thing for me is simply getting started on a task. After that part’s over, my momentum usually just keeps me going and going.
With this technique, you’re making the biggest barrier (getting started) easier to overcome. After all, it’s just 25 minutes!
6. Parkinson’s Law
I like this one a lot because it’s so unintuitive. Parkinson’s Law basically states that the time it takes to finish a task depends on how much time you allot to doing it.
So if you’re giving yourself three hours to perform some menial task that should only take one hour, it’s still going to take three hours to do.
The moral of the story here is that you should experiment with harsher self-imposed deadlines. Sure what you produce might not be quite as polished, but you’ve now bought yourself time to polish and refine the finished product, rather than being in a rush to finish it last minute.
7. Continuous Structure
Technique seven, continuous structure.
How often do you find yourself struggling to be productive after a lazy weekend? All the time, right?
Well the problem is, you’ve only got one brain. And when your habits and your thoughts are one way at the office and the complete opposite at home, making the switch between the two can be damn difficult.
So instead of trying to keep the two separate, try using the same techniques in both.
If you find for example that time blocking is doing wonders in the office, try doing it for date night with your partner each week. Fight to protect it like you would a massive client meeting.
You may be surprised how well these techniques work in both worlds.
8. The Power of “No”
And eight, the power of no.
Stop being so nice. Just stop it. Agreeing to every demand, every unreasonable meeting time, every covering of someone else’s blunder—it’s sucking the energy right out of you. Even worse, it’s letting colleagues, clients, and yes, bosses, know that it’s 100% a-okay to walk all over you.
Listen, you’ve only got one life. And if you want to make your goal omelet, you’re gonna have to break a few eggs.
Start getting comfortable with saying no more often. Saying “no” gives clear boundaries. It stops clients walking all over you. And saying it just a few times a day will free up hours and hours of time each week.
Time you can spend on more important things like I don’t know, say doing what you want.
So say no. There’s no way you’ll regret it.
How much you can get done each day comes down to time management. And if you want to get better at using your time more wisely, use these eight techniques…
Buying Signals: Know Exactly When To Close The Sale
Aug 15, 2022
Only 19% of sales close, so you can have lots of selling conversations and the best closing skills but still not win new business consistently. That's because there is more to closing a sale than asking for the business.
Not all prospects are a good fit for your product or service. And if your potential buyer isn't ready to make a purchase, then your odds of successfully closing the deal is dead. That's why you need to recognize your prospects' buying signals.
But this isn't only about identifying when your leads are ready to buy your product or service. These signs occur throughout the buyer's journey.
So, you need to watch and listen for buying signals during prospecting calls, discovery calls, demos, and every other prospect engagement. This includes phone calls, emails, social media interactions, data within your sales tools and video calls.
But what are buying signals?
Definition of the term ‘buying signals'
Buying signals are verbal and non-verbal cues, signs, or indicators that tell you when the lead is either ready to buy or interested in moving forward in their buying process.
You will often see buying signals from your prospect when a lead schedules a discovery call or when an opportunity responds to an email you've sent requesting additional information. In both cases, the prospect is giving buying signals indicating their interest in moving forward even though they aren't ready to become customers yet, by signing on the dotted line.
Buying signals are like road signs, helping you recognize how to proceed with each prospect. A lack of buying signals might even mean not advancing them through the sales process.
Why are buying signals essential to recognize?
Spotting these buying signals is more critical than ever because sales reps are getting less time with prospects. For example, B2B buyers currently spend only 17% of their time meeting with potential suppliers. And if the prospect is considering multiple solutions, your time with this potential customer drops to as little as 4-5% of the time it takes for them to make a buying decision.
This lack of face time with your leads gives you less time to pick up on indicators that the lead is interested in buying or moving forward with the sales process. So, it's essential that you learn to quickly recognize buying signals as they happen so you can respond appropriately. Reading the prospect's buying signals can also save you time by allowing you to disqualify potential customers too. You want to disqualify potential buyers because you don't want to spend precious selling time with prospects who aren't a good fit for your product.
They are less likely to close or may take longer to close and are more likely to be dissatisfied or churn. Churn is when a customer cancels their subscription to your product after a short period or chooses not to renew.
Ultimately, by spending your time with highly qualified leads who will most benefit from your solution, you significantly increase your close rate.
What are buying signals in sales?
Buying signals can be verbal or non-verbal, and some are more subtle than others, but with practice, you can learn to recognize all the different buying signals communicated by your prospects.
Here are some examples of positive buying signals or signs when a prospect is interested in buying from you:
Non-verbal buying signals:
Nodding, direct eye contact, and paying attention during your conversation or presentation. This is a sign the lead is interested. If you can't see the other person, listen carefully to determine if they are fully engaged in the conversation.
Smiling and appearing excited about your product or service is undoubtedly a positive sign. If you cannot see the person, you can listen for a positive tone in their voice.
Involving others on the buying committee in meetings, calls or email communications indicates the prospect is seriously considering taking the next step in the buying process.
Responding quickly to email communications shows the prospect is interested in continuing the conversation with you.
Quality of email responses is a buying signal, too, since a prospects willingness to provide detailed and timely responses to email inquiries reveals their level of interest in advancing through the buying process.
Open Communication buying signals:
Openly discussing the needs, challenges, and problems the lead want to solve shows that the prospect is intent on finding out if your product is the best solution.
Telling you about problems or issues with their current vendor is a transparent buying signal from your sales lead revealing that they are unhappy with the solution they are using. This enables you to learn more about the potential customer's preferences.
Sharing their goals, ideal end-state, or desired results is also an indicator that the prospect wants to give you the information needed to determine if your product or service will meet their needs.
Expresses an interest in future communications like scheduling another meeting, a discovery call, demo, or proposal. Or if the potential buyer asks when they will hear from you again. This is a buying sign demonstrating the prospect's interest in advancing the buying process.
Repeating or confirming attractive benefits indicates what the prospect is most excited about or interested in.
Questions that are a buying signal:
Asking questions during a demo or presentation instead of waiting until the end is a sure sign the buyer is interested in learning more about your product or service and its ability to meet their needs. When the lead asks questions like “how quick can we get started” you know you're close to getting a contract signed.
Questions about payment methods are a strong indicators the lead is close to making a buying decision. The lead being proactive about the price means your deals are on track.
Prospects picturing themselves using your product or service is a strong buying signal. This is seen when potential customers ask questions in terms of ‘When I use the product, will…?' or ‘How quickly will I see an improvement?' or ‘Will I see X that quickly too?'
Asking about delivery, installation, or on-boarding procedures and timing are strong buying signals since the prospect is wondering how soon they can benefit from your solution.
Requesting general pricing information is a buying signal that shows a prospect is interested.
Requests that are buying signals:
Wants to know more about your company. A request from the prospect indicates they like your solution and are trying to determine your company's longevity or its financial stability.
Requesting case studies or research reports by a prospect in a complex sale shows how interested they are in your product or service
Asking to speak with existing customers demonstrates that the prospective customer has a strong interest in moving forward
Asking to try the product before they buy is a strong buying signal. Prospects who are interested in taking the time to try a product during a free trial are seriously considering buying. If you offer a free trial, be sure to check in with the prospect at previously agreed-upon intervals to ensure everything is going smoothly.
Requesting a quote is a buying signal, but it's essential to present the pricing to the prospect, so you have the opportunity to get feedback from the potential customer. And, in this case, you want to be sure you are presenting to the decision-maker. Otherwise, you may never find out where you stand in comparison to competitors.
Examples of negative buying signals or signs when a potential buyer is not interested in buying from you:
Unresponsive or reluctant to schedule time to learn more. When a prospect won't respond to your social media, email or phone messages, or they are hesitant to schedule another call after initially speaking with you, is a clear sign the buyer isn't interested.
Indicating they are still looking into other options may mean the prospect isn't interested. Or, at the very least, it means ‘not now.'
Reluctance to talk about their needs, challenges or goals is a sign the prospect isn't presently interested in learning more about your solution.
Unwilling to share their budget may be a sign that there isn't a need currently, the prospect isn't interested, or there isn't sufficient funding available to make a deal happen.
Hesitant to identify or introduce the decision-making is a negative indicator since initial contacts are often not making the final buying decision. If you can't find out who is making the final decision at the prospect's company, you are wasting your time.
Telling you, they are not interested is a sure sign that this prospect will not become a customer… at least not now.
How to get better at spotting buying signals
An excellent way to develop your ability to recognize buying signals is to record your phone and video calls. Then review each call to see which buying signals were displayed by the prospect. Next, identify the ones you didn't recognize in real-time during the live call, so you don't miss them next time around. Doing this consistently will help you hear and see buying signs more quickly until it becomes automatic.
Conclusion
Even the most skilled reps don't close every prospect. It doesn't matter how well your sales and marketing team have done, the buyers purchasing intent is down to you to understand.
But the better you get at recognizing buying signals, the more time you'll end up spending with highly qualified prospects. This increases the percentage of prospects that you close. And it prevents you from wasting valuable selling time with leads who aren't a good fit for your product or service. This makes it easier to hit or exceed your quota targets and increases your number of sales.
So, learn to identify buying signals, revisit all your calls to figure out which signs you missed, and you'll soon become proficient at knowing when to progress the sale to a close.
Replay: What Is MEDDIC? (Win More Sales With This Process) | Salesman Podcast
Aug 12, 2022
In this episode of the Salesman Podcast, Andy Whyte dissects each step in the MEDDIC process and explains how B2B sales professionals can leverage the framework to both progress and close more sales.
Andy is the author of MEDDIC: The Ultimate Guide and an expert on using MEDDIC in the complex sale
You'll learn:
Sponsored by:
Free SalesCode assessment
Learn your strengths and weaknesses in an instant. Taken by over 10,000+ of your competitors. Don't get left behind.
Take the free assessment
Featured on this episode:
Host - Will Barron
Founder of Salesman.org
Guest - Andy Whyte
Author: MEDDIC: The Ultimate Guide
Coming up on today's episode of the Salesman Podcast.
Andy Whyte:
I think the thing is this, a lot of… MEDDICC is probably the most widely used methodology or framework or whatever you want to call it, in enterprise sales. What you find is that everyone has a different word for it. As a salesperson, you really only have one thing, one asset that really is going to dictate how successful you are and that's time.
Andy Whyte:
The paper process is the one that will have the biggest impact on whether your deal will close on time when you think it will. Because once you're a vendor of choice, once you're past selling and you're into closing, it's the paper process that takes the time and…
Will Barron:
Hello, Sales nation. My name is Will Barron and I'm the host of the Salesman Podcast, the world's most downloaded B2B sales show. On today's episode, we have an absolute legend. We have Andy Whyte. He is the author of the book MEDDICC. You can find at meddicc.com, which is M-E-D-D-I-C-C.com.
Will Barron:
On today's episode, unsurprisingly, we're talking about MEDDICC as a framework and how it can help you close more complex and enterprise-level sales. Everything we talk about in this episode is available in the show notes over at salesman.org. With that said, let's jump right into it. Andy, welcome to the Salesmen Podcast.
Andy Whyte:
Thank you, Will. It's awesome to be here. As I've mentioned to you before, I'm a big fan. I've been watching the shows. Thank you for having me on.
Andy’s Definition of MEDDICC · [01:30]
Will Barron:
I appreciate it. I'm excited to have you on. On this episode, we're going to get into MEDDICC. We're going to hopefully break down the analogy and go through each of these sections the best we can in the time that we have. But Andy, how do you describe MEDDICC? Would you say it's a sales methodology or do you have a better way or a different way of describing what it is?
Andy Whyte:
Yeah, great question. I think the thing is this, a lot of… MEDDICC, is probably the most widely used methodology or framework or whatever you want to call it in enterprise sales. What you find is that everyone has a different word for it. I personally, don't really mind what you call it, whether you call it a framework or a methodology. The only caveat I have around that is that one of the beautiful things about MEDDICC is it works with any other sales methodology. It plays very, very nicely.
“At its core MEDDICC is, I would say, a qualification framework. It helps people to qualify, should I be in this deal? And if I should be, what should I be doing to ensure I'm going to win it?” – Andy Whyte · [02:28]
Andy Whyte:
In fact, I think it enhances other methodology. Whether you use something like Sandler or Challenger Sale or any one of the many great methodologies that are out there, it kind of can work very well with MEDDICC. But at its core MEDDICC is, I would say, a qualification framework. It helps people to qualify should I be in this deal? And if I should be, what should I be doing to ensure I'm going to win it?
Why is The Sales Qualification Process So Important? · [02:47]
Will Barron:
For someone who is perhaps less familiar with a complex sale or high value deal size sale, why is the qualification process so important? Just to set up the rest of our conversation here.
“As a salesperson, you really only have one thing, one asset that really, it's going to dictate how successful you are and that's time. If you are a salesperson who is running around chasing after every single opportunity you have without kind of putting yourself on the front foot by identifying what your chances are of winning, then you're going to spread yourself very, very thin.” – Andy Whyte · [02:53]
Andy Whyte:
Yeah. Good. Good question. So as a salesperson, you really only have one thing, one asset that really, it's going to dictate how successful you are and that's time. If you are a salesperson who is running around chasing after every single opportunity you have without kind of putting yourself on the front foot by identifying what your chances are of winning, then you're going to spread yourself very, very thin.
“Not all good salespeople are good forecasters, but all good forecasters are good salespeople.” – Andy Whyte · [03:21]
Andy Whyte:
I have this saying which is that not all good salespeople are good forecasters, but all good forecasters are good salespeople. If you're a sales leader and if you're talking about, as we all do, to aspire to the very best jobs in sales, what sales leaders of the best jobs out there are looking for is they're looking for somebody who can accurately forecast, who can say, “I've got this deal and I'm going to win it and it's going to close on this date.” So it can be forecasted out.
Andy Whyte:
And if you are a salesperson that can do that, then you will always have the best job. You will always work for the best companies. But the key to being able to answer those questions and forecast accurately is being able to qualify your pipeline.
Will Barron:
I love it. I love it. Just a personal anecdote from my side, 99% of the friction I've had with sales managers and sales leadership in the past when I was working in sales was the fact that I would always hit target, I'd always do pretty well, not the best, but I'd always do pretty well. But there was no forecasting.
Will Barron:
It would always look like it would just flukally, I had to close one big deal a year that would crush it 80% or 20% of the target and get me beyond my 80% mark. It looks like it comes in flukally. It doesn't go in flukally. It came on the back of hard work but because I wasn't using a methodology or a system like MEDDICC as well as what I should have been to qualify, I just got managers on my back all the time and that made the last part of my final sales job, it a bit of a mess and a bit of a pain.
Andy Breaks Down the MEDDICC Framework · [05:02]
Will Barron:
There's definitely value in this, not just in getting more deals done but from having a better relationship with your internal stakeholders as well. So without Andy, breakdown MEDDICC. Give us the high level of what the acronym stands for and then we can perhaps go through each step as best we can with the time that we have.
Andy Whyte:
Of course, yeah. To do that, if I may, I'll just take us back in time a little bit to where MEDDICC was formed because it beautifully explains why MEDDICC exists. MEDDICC was created by a guy called Dick Dunkel in the '90s. I think it was 1995 in a company called PTC, Parametric Technology Corporation.
Andy Whyte:
They were a big, big organisation, over 1,000 salespeople. They had this challenge where they started to plateau, they were starting to lose sales people. It was kind of that sort of growing pain at that size issue. The sales leader at the time, a guy called John McMahon, who is by the way, the pound for pound, the greatest sales leader of all time. This guy is the Maradona of sales leadership, the [inaudible 00:05:57] of sales leadership, he's the guy, greatest of all time.
Andy Whyte:
He pulled the guy called Dick Dunkel, as I mentioned, out of the field, who was a great, great salesperson. He said, “Dick, we need more people like you basically. We need you to train the sales team to be like you.” And so he was doing that and if you can imagine, there's a thousand salespeople, that's lots of different teams and regions.
Andy Whyte:
What Dick was doing was travelling around meeting the teams. He ran this exercise, which I think is brilliant, which he still runs today, by the way, where he asked three key questions. Number one, why do we win deals? Number two, why do we lose deals? And number three, why do deals slip? What he noticed by asking those questions to multiple different teams with those six elements that were the same everywhere he went, they were six common elements of the reasons why if they had these elements in strength, they would win. If they didn't have them and they were weak on them, they would lose or the deal would slip.
Andy Whyte:
And of course, you can guess where I'm going with this. Those elements became MEDDICC and the astute of the audience amongst us that would have read the show notes or looked at the title or seen my book will see that there's two Cs in my MEDDICC. That totals to seven letters, not six letters and you're absolutely right. It initially started with MEDDICC with one C, there's now two Cs. There's sometimes even a P and other letters in it.
Andy Whyte:
But I'll get into what it stands for now, if you like. The first letter is M and it stands for metrics. The high level version of this is I like to say, imagine yourself six months from now, sat down having a quarterly business review with your customer. You've won the deal, what would be the KPIs in which you're measuring the success of your solution with them? Those, whatever the answers to those are, it maybe improvements in conversion rate, it maybe efficiency improvements or anything depending on what the value is of what you sell, those are the metrics.
Andy Whyte:
The idea is you want to find those as early as possible in the deal through good discovery and kind of make them the headlines of your deal. That's the metrics. Of course, we can get into more detail on all of these as we go, if it helps you.
Will Barron:
Sure. Let's go each of them as quick as we can and then we'll dive into them. Because I don't think we have time to go into all of them. We'll perhaps pick on the ones that you feel most salespeople get wrong most often.
Andy Whyte:
Beautiful. Let's do that. The second letter is E, and it stands for economic buyer. This is the person who has the overall authority in your deal. This person can say no when others say yes and yes will never say no. They can create budget out of thin air. These are generally senior people.
Andy Whyte:
Then you've got the decision criteria. Now this one's really kind of easy, because it's kind of the clues in the name, it's the criteria in which the customer is going to base the decision. Very easy in a RFP, this one. It's like what are the things they're scoring you against? It can be more holistic things like partnerships and your roadmap or whether they like you even you as a company. And then the second D is decision process. This is really how are they going to make their decision? What's the process they're going to go in? What authorizations? What stakeholders? All that sort of stuff.
Andy Whyte:
And as I mentioned before, there's sometimes a P which stands for paper process, which is really just the contract, the NDA right through to getting stuff signed. And then this is an interesting one, we should definitely dive more into. It's I. It initially stood for identify the pain. I actually say there's three Is: identify the pain, indicate the pain and then implicate the pain. So we can perhaps go back into that one a bit more detail.
Andy Whyte:
And then you have the most important of all, the greatest CROs I've spoken to about MEDDICC will tell you this and that's champion. No champion, no deal. Big champion, big deal. And we can talk more about champions because I think it's probably the most used term to describe a customer, but it's also the most incorrectly used term.
Andy Whyte:
And then the last C which I have on my book, which is commonly implemented as well stands for competition. Now, everyone listened to this goes, “Oh, you don't need to explain that one, Andy.” But actually, it's a commonly misunderstood one because most people think of the competition as your rival solution, the other company out there that you normally don't like them and they're worse than you, of course and they're selling the same thing as you are, maybe a bit different. Obviously not as good as what most salespeople would say.
“Competition in today's world where our customers have so much options and so much opportunity, is any one person or thing that is vying for the same budget or resources that you are.” – Andy White · [10:28]
Andy Whyte:
Now, the catch here is actually the competition. In today's world, where our customers have so much options and so much opportunity is any one person or thing that is vying for the same budget or resources that you are. That could be both or it could be three things, it could be the rival solution, it could be the customer themselves looking at what you do and saying, “Well, we can build that ourselves.” Or it could be something that's does a similar thing to what you do but a completely different solution or platform or something like that that could still the people that are going to implement your solution or steal the budget for it. That's it. That's MEDDICC in probably three or four minutes.
Andy Describes the KPIs That Can Potentially Help in Identifying and Solving Customer Pain Points · [11:05]
Will Barron:
Perfect. Well, let's start at the top here because I feel like metrics are something that often get forgotten. We as salespeople will often go into a room virtually now I guess, these days, sit down with people and go, “Hey, you have this problem, we have this solution. You've got some budget, we've got something to suck the budget away from you.” I find typically there's not a lot of discussion of what does success look like for you.
Will Barron:
Do you care to solve this problem or not? Just because you've got this problem, oversells it. Or the place is on fire constantly. Everything is falling apart behind the scenes. But I don't care to solve all the issues because they don't drive revenue, for example. So with that said, what would be an example of a KPI of success if we're selling to the enterprise or we're trying to do a large deal here. What kind of KPIs would we be trying to pull out from the potential buyer?
Andy Whyte:
Sure. Well, I predominantly have worked in marketing technology, which is a good place to use as an example, because unlike so many other technologies out there, we are all consumers. We're generally always being marketed to, so we can kind of relate to these things. And I like to… In fact, the sales MEDDICC group who are a consultancy that implement MEDDICC, they break metrics into two: metrics ones and metric twos.
“What happens so much for salespeople today, is they spot an opportunity, whether it's inbound or outbound and they know they can help a company and at the first chance they get, before they've even joined the Zoom call, they're straight away telling the customer about how ugly their baby is.” – Andy White · [12:31]
Andy Whyte:
This is really, really key. Because what happens so much for salespeople today, is they spot an opportunity, whether it's inbound or outbound and they know they can help a company and at the first chance they get, their laptop lid, before it's even up, before they've even joined the Zoom, they're straightaway telling the customer about how ugly their baby is. They come on and they go, “Will, my solution, you… When you email me, you don't personalise it or whatever the value is and it's horrible and look at your competitor. They're so much better than you. You suck basically.”
Andy Whyte:
And the customer's going, “Thanks a lot. I don't really… Do I really want to introduce you to my boss, because you just told me I suck and now my boss will think I suck as well.” But that's the common mistake we do. And we even do it in outreach, we show like bad examples.
Andy Whyte:
What the difference between metrics ones and metric twos are as metrics ones are where you research the customer ahead of your meeting and you think about your existing customers and the value you provide to them and you think about, “Well, which of my existing customers have relevant value to the customer I'm about to go and see?” And so when I sit in front of you as a person in a marketing department, for example, I can say, “Hey, I work for X company. Here is the value that I provide to my customers. Here's an example of a customer that before working with me had these problems.
Andy Whyte:
And now since working with me and my solution, they've not got these problems. Look how great it looks. By the way, these are the metrics, these are the things that they're getting, the areas of value. Their conversion rate has gone up or their checkout-dropout has fallen off,” or whatever those metrics therefore become.
Andy Whyte:
What that will do is build trust, which is very hard to do in today's world in COVID times. It will help build trust and value and the customer is more likely to open up to what you want them to be able to do, so you can do good discovery and find the metrics twos, which is the metrics that are specific to their needs.
Andy Whyte:
Now, they could be exactly the same as the metric ones if they were a close enough company, but the idea is you almost have to use the metric ones to unlock the metrics twos and then you can really, really personalise what value you're going to bring.
The Crucial Customer Metrics Salespeople Need to Monitor When Identifying Buyer Goals and Areas of Improvement · [14:51]
Will Barron:
Is the end goal here Andy to get a one singular holy grail metric that the company is working for? Or can it be just as effective to say, “We can potentially fix/solve, improve one, two, three, four, five different things.” Is one way better or should we focus on one or go for multiple?
Andy Whyte:
It's a great question. There isn't a single answer to that. And so it really is going to come down to the opportunity itself. I'll give an example of that based on something that I think everyone will know. I used to work for the leading social media software provider. In that example, I could be talking to, let's say, Unilever, a gigantic company. They could be spending an absolute fortune on Facebook advertising for Lynx Aftershave or something like that. So my metrics to them might be, “Well, I can help you identify more people that are likely to buy Lynx by using our data platform and our services.”
Andy Whyte:
That's a metric, that's going to not only increase their goal of getting more people to engage with Lynx, but it's going to save them money. So there's one metric, increased revenue on the end, metric number two, it's going to decrease their ad spend, it's going to give them more bang for their buck, basically.
“Metrics depend on who you're talking to, who you're selling to and what their needs are.” – Andy White · [16:26]
Andy Whyte:
But then over here, you could have another metric completely separate, which is to say, “Hey, what happens if an intern goes rogue on your Facebook page and just starts causing havoc?” Well, that would be an entirely different metric from these sort of revenue metrics. Then all of a sudden, it's like a brand risk and it could affect the share price. It depends on who you're talking to, who you're selling to and what their needs are. It could just be one, but it could be many.
How to Identify and Engage with The economic buyer · [16:40]
Will Barron:
Okay, perfect. You've transitioned perfectly to the second part here of MEDDICC, the economic buyer. Does the economic buyer when we're talking about people, does the economic buyer have to be our champion? Can we just know, identify who the economic buyer is and be cordial and polite to them or do we actually need to engage with them and kind of build a relationship with them directly?
“According to data from iSEEit, 80% of deals that were won had engagements with the economic buyer. 80% of deals that were lost or slipped didn't have engagement with the economic buyer.” – Andy Whyte · [17:12]
Andy Whyte:
I have a really good answer for this one and it's data backed, which I'm sure you will like. There's a SaaS company called [inaudible 00:17:11] and they provide MEDDICC software. It helps implement MEDDICC into Salesforce. They were able to analyse the data of won deals and lost deals. Here's the stat. 80% of deals that were won had engagements with the… Sorry, it's over 80%. I can't remember the exact figures but had engagement with the economic buyer.
“If you want to be successful, consistently successful, you absolutely have to be engaged with the economic buyer. I would be as bold as saying that if you aren't engaged with the economic buyer, then you are order taking, not selling.” – Andy Whyte · [17:42]
Andy Whyte:
80% of deals that were lost or slipped didn't have engagement with the economic buyer. That's the data backed to answer your question. The economic buyer is not the same person as a champion. It's someone more senior than the champion. You absolutely, if you want to be successful, consistently successful, you absolutely have to be engaged with the economic buyer. I would be as bold as saying that if you aren't engaged with the economic buyer, then you are order taking, not selling.
Will Barron:
Sure. Let me give a anecdote here without giving too much away. Let's say salesman.org is looking at partnering with a big CRM company right now and there's discussions ongoing in the background. When the show goes out, it'll all be signed, sealed, and delivered hopefully. So let's say that this is the case. Hopefully, this is being addressed to the audience and make it real for them as well.
How Salespeople Can Engage The Economic Buyer and Close More Deals By Adding Value to The Conversation · [18:55]
Will Barron:
So I have daily conversations with a champion within the organisation. I could probably ring the economic buyer, the CMO of the entire organisation and he'll probably answer my call and have a chat with me. But there's not much value I don't think I could give him that otherwise couldn't be just passed through their own internal chain of command.
Will Barron:
How do I engage with that CMO without pestering them, without communicating with them unnecessary information that they can just get from their own team? What value can I add to that individual to increase the level of engagement so that I can spend with them?
Andy Whyte:
Yeah, great question. You're a bit of a unique case to the answer to this. If I may, I will broaden out the answer because I don't think too many managing directors of the company would be in this sort of situation where they're doing a sponsorship deal. Let's imagine that you the… You're a middle manager or something like that or not middle manager, you're middle ranking in this.
Andy Whyte:
Now, what you most likely have and what most people listen to this podcast will have whether they are individual contributors, sales leaders, is they'll have a boss or maybe a few bosses above them. This is multi-level selling 101. It's not necessarily your job, Will, as the salesperson to contact the economic buyer. It's your boss's job. And they should do that early on. Now this is a really, really, really good tip and this is not one of my tips.
“The idea should be that you should, before you've even had the first meeting with a potential customer, you should get your boss to write to the person's boss that you're going to meet.” – Andy Whyte · [20:02]
Andy Whyte:
The idea should be that you should, before you've even had the first meeting with a potential customer, you should get your boss to write to the person's boss that you're going to meet. There is no ask here. It's very straightforward. You simply just write to them and say, “Hi, Sara. I'm Andy. It sounds like our teams are meeting next week to talk about these things. I'm really, really excited by it. We're really excited to talk to you because we've helped companies just like you do A, B and C areas of value. I didn't have any ask at the moment, but I just wanted to open this line of communication to you just in case you had anything you want to talk to me about.”
Andy Whyte:
Now, chances are you will get a reply if you've teed it up. But that's it. If you set the bar, then you can constantly re-engage those things, add value, ask questions and that sort of thing. Yeah, but it's a good question. A lot of people… If it was easy to contact the economic buyer, everyone would do it and that's why it's such a awesome thing to have as a focus because the more you do it, the better you're going to be.
Will Barron:
Sure. That makes total sense. It's almost a level of professionalism and the fact that we're taking this deal so seriously that we're willing to have our higher ups are not ours. And then myself included, those [inaudible 00:21:17] sales people, pestering people higher up the food chain. So that makes total sense and especially if we're dealing with the enterprise.
Will Barron:
I think that… I'm hesitant to use this word, but I feel like that's the appropriate thing to do, isn't it?
Andy Whyte:
Yes. Yes, it is absolutely right.
The Difference Between the Decision Criteria and the Decision Process in MEDDICC · [21:33]
Will Barron:
Cool. Okay. Well, let's move on to decision criteria again. Tell me your thoughts on how separate the decision criteria is versus the decision process. Are these… I know in the acronym MEDDICC, they're separate elements but should these be… Are they related or should they be kept in separate silos?
Andy Whyte:
Yeah, people quite often try and push them together and I think that's… Those would be people that haven't had a great implementation of MEDDICC because they are very, very different, even though they're both kind of got the same D in them. The reason why it's the decision process itself is really about how are they going to make their decision? What is the process? Who are the people involved? And so that's over there and then the decision criteria is what are they going to make their decision based upon?
“What the best salespeople do is they uncover the decision criteria. Now, you know as well as I do, quite often buyers, they won't have a decision criteria. They know they want something, so it's your job because then you can become the trusted advisor and you can craft the decision criteria for the customer.” – Andy Whyte · [22:30]
Andy Whyte:
Now, this is a really good one to dig into, because it's the one that can really be a game changer for salespeople. What the best salespeople do is they will uncover the decision criteria. Now, you know as well as I do, quite often buyers, they won't have a decision criteria. They know they want something [inaudible 00:22:41], they won't have it. So it's your job. And that's actually a good thing, by the way, because then you can become the trusted advisor and you can craft the decision criteria for the customer.
Andy Whyte:
So you can do some discovery and find out what they need. And of course, the elite salespeople will be including their own unique capabilities as decision criteria. They'll have a meeting, they'll do some great discovery, they'll get what they think is the decision criteria and then they'll follow up after the meeting and say, “Have I heard this, right? It sounds like this is your decision criteria.” You can even be as bold as calling it that and put all the things you think that they're making a decision on and then include…
Andy Whyte:
And also, it sounded like whatever solution you're going to go for, it absolutely must have these things which will be your decision criteria, which is bad news for your competition, especially if they don't have those features, functionality or they're weaker in that area. You can really set yourself up for success. This is something I noticed from watching a few of your former guests that when we talk about procurement, everyone's sort of, “Oh no, procurement.” And they shudder and they think that's a terrible thing.
Andy Whyte:
Now, I feel like if we were to talk to procurement people and tell them that we do that and the reasons why, there'll be very offended because most procurement professionals I know, they would be offended because they'll say, “No, no, we are just trying to find the best value for our company. We're not just trying to get the best price. We're trying to find the best value.”
Andy Whyte:
Now, if you imagine that scene, when you go into what is effectively a negotiation for a procurement. We never just go in there to have a cup of tea with them. They're always going to do something. And you go in and they do that classic, “Will, I'm looking at your training package here. You're twice the price of the other quote we've had.”
Andy Whyte:
Now, most sellers at that point, they'll get into sort of, “But mine's got the videos in it,” or this or that. But if you've really nailed the decision criteria, then you'll be able to say, “Cool, okay.” What you're saying is if you've not got the budget for this or you've got to isolate the objection, they'd be, “No, you just seem expensive.” And you say, “Okay. Well, we could make it cheaper. If you're looking for cheaper, we could take these things out but it sounded like you needed those things.” And those are obviously the things you've put in the decision criteria that are unique to your solution.
Andy Whyte:
And then all of a sudden, all of a sudden the dynamic changes because the procurement person can clearly see based on the criteria of what they need, only you can provide it and you've actually obviously set that up and it's just a really smart way. That obviously works not just with procurement, but with anyone you're having a conversation with around the decision criteria.
Will Barron:
I've shared this anecdote on the show before. I won't share it in full. But we used to do this selling medical devices here in the wonderful UK to the NHS. There's only really two endoscopic camera systems… Probably in the market, there was only two that surgeons want to use. I worked for both companies and so I'd just do the opposite both times.
Will Barron:
Basically, HD cameras had just come in to the marketplace. One company used interlaced footage, which really made very little difference. But in fast movement when the camera's inside the patient, perhaps it looks smoother and better. And then the other brand used non-interlaced footage, which on a static camera perhaps looked better. Not really much difference between the two in all honesty when you're inside a patient and you're performing your procedure, the last thing you really care about is how the lines are drawn on the screen at 60 frames per second.
Will Barron:
Well, we used to use this as… Well, I used to use this as leverage with procurement. I'd asked them, “What are you looking for? This, this and this?” A lot of the times, they didn't know what they were looking for. I would always spend the extra hour of procurement, I'd always spend that extra bit of time trying to almost provide a bit of a service to help them make a good decision.
Will Barron:
Sometimes it was us, sometimes it wasn't us. But whenever we got to an RFP or request for proposal stage of the buying process, which we'll come on to in a second, the decision process, it always included whatever company I worked for the appropriate must have interlaced footage or must not have interlaced footage, immediately locking out the competition and 99 times out of 100, we'd win those deals.
How Salespeople Can Influence The Procurement Officer’s Decision Criteria · [27:06]
Will Barron:
I feel like we're only touching the surface of each of these steps here, Andy, but there's a lot of strategy that can come on the back of this that can… A little bit of work up front can really pay dividends towards the end of the sales process, can it?
“I always liken sales to sports because it's a performance activity.” – Andy Whyte · [27:21]
Andy Whyte:
Yeah, you're absolutely right. And that's the most beautiful… I always liken sales to sports because it's a performance activity. There was things that… Imagine that 30 yard out free kick that Ronaldo takes and he calls into the top right hand corner. What you've talked about there is the sales equivalent of that.
“When you are able to influence the decision criteria of an RFP, that's elite selling.” – Andy Whyte · [27:35]
Andy Whyte:
When you are able to influence the criteria of an RFP, the decision criteria of an RFP, that's elite selling that is. Everyone can do it. But if you just need to lean in and make sure you kind of really focus on building that decision criteria.
Will Barron:
Yeah. This is a stupid way of describing it. I can't think of off the top my head a better way of describing it. I think it's just big boy selling. It's selling in the big leagues. It's what you do, adding strategy to a longer term enterprise sale or didn't have to be enterprise sale. But when you have a methodology and a strategy and you stick to it and you refine it and you learn an A/B test from your customers, what works, what doesn't work.
Customer Relationships Versus Selling Strategies · [28:20]
Will Barron:
In my mind, that's the difference between a sales professional and then you have other salespeople who are trying to blag it and use quick wit and banter and even trying to leverage relationships more than strategy. I feel like nine times out of 10 again, I'm not the greatest salesperson, I'm pretty good, but I will wipe the floor was someone who comes in thinking that they can blag it with just a few levels of strategy every single time.
Andy Whyte:
Yeah, yeah. I used to play football as an amateur. In the changing room, we used to have this quote above the wall that said, “Hard work always beat talent when talent doesn't work hard.” That said, with something like MEDDICC, if you embrace it, it's a blueprint for success. It really is.
Why Is It Important That Salespeople Know How The Buyer Makes Purchasing Decisions? · [29:11]
Will Barron:
For sure. Okay, so we've touched on decision criteria. Let's touch on decision process now. We've kind of alluded to it slightly in that last point. But why is it important that we… It's a stupid question to ask but why is it important that we know how the buyer makes purchasing decisions? Sorry, or the process of of choosing, I guess.
Andy Whyte:
Yeah, sure. Well, it's that classic thing of we've all been in those deals where we thought that we're doing great and all of a sudden, [inaudible 00:29:35]. “Well hang, what happened there?” And it's those seven other stakeholders that we never knew were involved in the process. That's not because we…
Andy Whyte:
That's not because they're weird, it's just that companies… We always think as salespeople, we get up in the morning and all we do is sell and depending on how complex the sales we have, we could even have a one deal a quarter we're working on. And so that's what we think about, but the companies we're selling to, we're just not even probably 5% of their day. And so there's always going to be stakeholders and they're going to rely on other people that maybe are close to the process.
“If you don't understand your decision process and your paper process, you have no chance of forecasting accurately.” – Andy Whyte · [30:33]
Andy Whyte:
And so you need to know who those people are, you need to know how they're evaluating who those people are. There's almost two stages. There's the validation side of the decision process, where they're kind of figuring out what they need and who to trust for it. And then there's like the authorization side of things where it's about now we're into procurement process, legal side of things and all. Going back to what I said at the top about forecasting, if you don't understand your decision process and your paper process, you have no chance of forecasting accurately. You really, really don't. Yeah, that's why it's so important.
Why It’s Not Inappropriate to Ask Your Clients Their Buyer’s Decision Process · [30:50]
Will Barron:
Just to double down on this for a second, it's more than appropriate, especially with procurement, to ask what your decision process is, right? It's not an unreasonable question to ask, especially in a larger deal size.
Andy Whyte:
Correct. I tell you, I had an anecdote this week from a gentleman called [inaudible 00:31:06] in Germany, he's a top MEDDICC consultant there. He told me that the head of procurement at Siemens who are obviously a gazillion dollar company told him that he prefers to buy from companies that use MEDDICC because they go to him and his team and they're looking for the right things. They're professional and they're trying to run an efficient process from both sides. Yeah. Absolutely right.
Will Barron:
Perfect. Okay. Paper process, an extra P. MEDDPICC with a…
Andy Whyte:
MEDDPICC, yeah.
Will Barron:
Is that what it gets [inaudible 00:31:41].
Andy Whyte:
Yeah, yeah. And it's so funny people get so so precious over whether it's MEDDICC, one C, two Cs, Ps and that sort of stuff. I'm just like look into them all and find the one that works best for you. Because they all have their pros and cons.
Will Barron:
Sure.
Andy Whyte:
But yeah, MEDDPICC is similar to the decision process. But it's that… All the things that can happen, especially today with the cloud, as in the world I sold the technology sales, you've got data privacy, user privacy, you've got infrastructure security, you've got lawyers, you've got a gazillion different contracts and everything.
Andy Whyte:
That's what it comes down to. It's not just that. It's like who's signing it? Who has to approve it before it's signed? What if someone goes on holiday? And so it's really just keeping on top of those things. What can go wrong here and how am I going to mediate that if it happens? It's a really straightforward one, but it's a really important one.
Will Barron:
Crazy important. Doubling down on this analogy here of me selling medical devices, but if we ever wanted… Surgeons would always want the camera systems to be able to put data on the hospital network so that they open a computer in a different room and they get all the files and the images and the videos from the procedure in there all nicely and all wrapped up in a bow.
Will Barron:
Very rare were we able to actually integrate that because as soon as we get anywhere near one of these cameras stats with an ethernet cable, IT come running in the room, bashing heads and waving keyboards to attack people because they know that as soon as it gets plugged in, they've got a responsibility to maintain it, to maintain the licences and there's obviously additional costs and paperwork that go along with that.
Andy Describes How Salespeople Can Avoid Some Existing Pain Points To Avoid Making the Deal Complex and Help Close the Deals Faster · [33:14]
Will Barron:
So this point for us, it was almost our job to avoid existing and this sounds counterintuitive, but to almost do as limited integration as what we possibly could, that the end user was happy so that we didn't have to involve other people, because then the deal would never get done because it would become too complex. So it can work both ways. Can it, right?
“The paper process is the one that has the biggest impact on whether your deal will close on time when you think it will.” – Andy Whyte · [33:36]
Andy Whyte:
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Right. Yeah, the paper process is the one that have the biggest impact on whether your deal will close on time when you think it will. Because once you really… Once your vendor of choice and once your past selling and your into closing, it's the paper process that takes the time and whether it's understanding if the company you're selling to has internal or external legal counsel, I straightaway… If I'm looking at a deal in my team and someone's forecasting a deal within a month and we haven't got legals, then we find out they've got an external legal team, forget it. You're going to see more reding on that contract than anything at all. It'll look like your background.
Implicating Versus Identifying Customer Pain Points · [34:35]
Will Barron:
Okay. Well, so from then on, and let's rattle through these last three. I'm going to put you on the spot. I'd love to have you back on to perhaps get into one or two of these in detail in a future episode. Let's rattle through the last three of these now. Just because of time constraints. Or implicating pain. You mentioned that there's potentially three Is that we could stick on this one.
“Identifying the pain is what you can almost not fail to do if you're a salesperson today. You talk to a customer and you find some pain.” – Andy Whyte · [34:45]
Andy Whyte:
Yes. I'll give you the really short version. Identifying the pain is what you can almost not fail to do if you're a salesperson today. You talk to a customer and you find some pain and what the average sales person will do will accelerate into their sales point, their PowerPoint presentations, “Hey, I found some pain. Let me tell you how I solve it.” That's not great. That's pretty poor selling.
Andy Whyte:
The next level up, which is what the majority in certainly in my world events price sales do, which is they indicate the pain. They find some pain, they go, “Okay, how much of that is a pain and how much is it costing you?”
Andy Whyte:
And then they'll indicate back to the customer by a business case or an ROI or something like that. “It's costing you 2 million a year,” and the customer feels, “Well, that's a little bit more painful than seeing your slide deck. But it's okay, I'll take that into account.”
“Now, implicating the pain is the one that really elite sellers do. Where it's like, I've found some pain, I've quantified it, but now I'm going to really make you feel it.” – Andy Whyte · [35:38]
Andy Whyte:
Now, implicating the pain is the one that really elite sellers do. Where it's like, I've found some pain, I've quantified it, but now I'm going to really make you feel it. So via a really smart discovery where I'm asking you what the implications of the pain, how much is it costing you and just digging deeper, SPIN Selling basically.
Andy Whyte:
Digging deeper and deeper and deeper to the point where it sort of starts as, “That's not great.” But at the end of the discovery session, I've dug in so deep to it, you're just like, “Will, can we just forget about this and just get the contracts done already because I really need to solve this?” It's not easy to do. It takes a lot of skill and discovery. But the sellers that can do it will always overachieve on that quote, because they're the ones that are really bring the pain up and they'll sell more higher value deals because of it.
How to Strategically Implicate a Customer’s Pain Points · [36:19]
Will Barron:
Sure. Again, just continue this analogy for me. Tell me if I'm right or wrong here. But a lot of this would be, well, we want these cameras, because we will be able to do the procedures quicker. So then I would start to lay on top, well, you're using a standard definition screen camera system right now, a high definition camera system. Maybe you're going to have better patient outcomes and it's difficult to quantify. So now I bring a surgeon in that will… “Are you going to perform better?” Because the surgeons want the latest toys.
Will Barron:
So they'll agree with whatever what kind of pitch it to a CFO in the NHS. We're bringing them in, “Hey, do you think you'll be able to perform a safer procedure and reduce the chances of the NHS get sued? Any kind of patient problems on the back of this?” And of course, they say yes. And they go on board. And there'll be two or three other things that we would layer on top of that. Would that be on the right tracks of this I here?
Andy Whyte:
That's it. It's exactly it. Yeah. And it's that thing around with the example there, it's like the implicating the pain would be really digging into, in the case of the surgeon, I'll be digging into the feelings they have of what if something… How many bad issues going wrong will this solve and how many, like you said better outcome for patients. I'm not knowledgeable enough about the space to know what they were treating, what they're solving. But if I did, I'd be like scratching on that little wound a little bit, so to speak, to try and really open it up so that it…
Andy Whyte:
[inaudible 00:37:46] Yeah, actually, this is a really big problem. And I need to solve this immediately, if not sooner. That's kind of the trick.
Will Barron:
Because we tie into the… And this sounds manipulative post mortem. But during the conversation, it's not manipulative. You're asking questions and they're giving you answers that they feel are appropriate. I wouldn't feel like maybe you could do this in a manipulative way if you chose to. But I would only be asking, I'd be asking relatively open-ended questions so they could choose not to give me the response I was looking for.
Will Barron:
But you get to the point where you'd be talking about their careers and how many legal actions can you have against you before the general medical council in the UK go, “Hey, there's a problem here.” A lot of that can be tied to very literally just being able to see better on a screen. Maybe I'm in a good position here or I was in a good position, because that's an obvious wave of add an implication and maybe a software product would be more difficult to add this. Maybe that's a conversation for another time. Next, go on to champion.
Andy Whyte:
Champion.
Who is a Sales Champion? · [38:45]
Will Barron:
Do we have a champion? Do we have multiple champions? Are the different levels of champion? Do we need a champion and do we need to identify the person who's going to kibosh the whole thing and the enemy? How does this framework work in regards to all that?
Andy Whyte:
Yeah, great, great way of phrasing it. You can have more than one champion for sure. But the most important thing with a champion is that it's a qualified champion. In MEDDICC, there's three qualifying criteria. And these are really, really important. It's okay if you haven't qualified this, it doesn't mean you need to rule out talking to this person but before calling them a champion, you have to have these things, three things.
Andy Whyte:
Number one, power and influence. Okay, it's not rank. It's just when they speak, when they say something, do people listen. The second is they have to have a mutual win with you. They want to… There has to be something in it for them, your success needs to equal their success. The third is they have to be selling on your behalf. You can't be there all the time. There's going to be lots of conversations when you're not there and they need to be selling in your behalf. And what that means is when somebody says, “Well, I think we can build this ourselves,” or, “I like the competition or whatever it is,” they stand up and step up for you.
Andy Whyte:
Obviously, these three qualifying criteria, some are easier than others. You can see power and influence in a meeting, see if their people listen to them. You can kind of talk to them about your mutual win. The one around selling for you, the real easy hack here to understand if they talk to you to say, “Hey Jess, surely you've been talking about this project internally?” “Oh, yes, yes, we have.” “Has there been anyone that's not been in favour of our solution?” “Oh, yeah. There's Steve. He didn't like it.” “What did Steve say?” “Oh, well. Steve told me this.”
Andy Whyte:
So first one, tick. Jess has told you what Steve said. That's a good sign. The real ultimate test is, “And what did you say to Steve?” She says, “Well, I told Steve and I made sure everyone else knew that Steve was wrong as well.” That's the champion. That's the first part. You've got your champion. And you can have more of those than you want. But it's really important you have a proper champion, rather than thinking just everyone likes me. “Everyone likes me.” That's no good.
Andy Whyte:
The next one is the competition's champion, your counter champion, if you like. Now, it really comes down to who has the stronger champion, right. And if you find out that your competition has a stronger champion, you've got two choices, you either build up your champion to be stronger, you've got to train them, you've got to support the order, give them the talk track or you've got to find another champion because whoever has the strongest champion will win. It's basically the law.
How To Identify and Nature Your Sales Champion · [41:36]
Will Barron:
I feel like I could ask you 15 questions here. I guess the most important thing here to understand for the audience, I don't know if there's data on this, I'm asking you anecdotally, do these champions come about because they like the salesperson or the people in the organisation personally?
Will Barron:
Is this all based on relationships or is this typically because the champion knows that your product or service is the correct thing and they're excited to get it implemented?
“The best champions actually often don't have to like you.” – Andy Whyte · [41:53]
Andy Whyte:
Yeah, brilliant question. Absolutely astounding. Because this is the thing. The best champions actually often don't have to like you. In fact, they can be a bit of a pain in your ass. They can. And so, yeah, that's the thing. The Challenger Sale is the book that gets talked about all the time and rightly, it's a good book. But the followup book, The Challenger Customer, for me, is a better book. And in that book, it talks about the difference…
“The different types of buyers. And actually, the one that's your friend is actually not as good as the person that the persona that is actually just wants the best for their company.” – Andy Whyte · [42:39]
Andy Whyte:
And I think one of the reasons why it doesn't get as much hype, by the way is because people think it's for customer success people or something, it's about customers, but it's actually talking about the person you're selling to. And it's saying that where there's challenge of salespeople, there's also challenge of buyers. It should be called The Challenger Buyer. They should bring me up. They can have that one for free. But that's it. What they talk about is the different types of buyer. And actually, the one that's like, your friend is actually not as good as the person that the persona that is actually just wants the best for their company.
Andy Whyte:
They don't care if it's you, they don't care if your logo is blue or red or what you do, they just want to get the best and that's that. Yeah, you almost actually just want… I'd rather have that champion because they definitely have more power and influence because people are like, “Well, it's really hard to impress that person.” So if you've impressed that person, it's worth more than the person that seems like everybody.
Which One is More Important: Customer Relationships or Understanding the Buyer and Delivering Value? · [43:15]
Will Barron:
Yeah. We'll come on to a competition in a second but just to drill this home. How important are relationships versus how important is it to understand the buyer and just deliver value to them as a whole, across the whole like in the MEDDICC methodology?
“As a salesperson, you don't necessarily have to be liked. In fact, sometimes it can be a bit of a hindrance.” – Andy Whyte · [43:55]
Andy Whyte:
Yeah. Well, here's a probably an unpopular opinion. Everywhere I've worked, there's always been a successful sales person who I thought, I won't say what I thought, but you just think, “I don't like that person. They don't seem to…” I know it's not me. I know they're like that with their customers, but they're still wildly successful. That, to me, proves that you don't necessarily have to be liked. In fact, sometimes it can be a bit of a hindrance. If you just want people to like you… Earlier in my career, that was me. I was scared of asking the difficult questions and all that sort of stuff. So that the more outcome driven sellers, I think are the better ones. I have a really nice analogy for how I think salespeople should be. We should never be apologetic, we shouldn't be, “Thank you so much for your time.” You, yourself as a great example of this, you were selling technology that literally helped save people's lives.
“They should be calling you up and clearing their calendar to talk to you. If you don't feel like that about the product you're selling, then you're probably in the wrong job.” – Andy Whyte · [44:27]
Andy Whyte:
They should be calling you up and clearing their calendar to talk to you. If you don't feel like that about the product you're selling, then you're probably in the wrong job. And so this is the analogy, this is the mindset. There's a film called Limitless, I don't know if you've seen it. It's got Bradley Cooper. It's one of my favourite films. But for those that haven't seen, it's basically about a pill that says we use 6% of our brain. The pill unlocks 100% of our brain power. So you can learn a language in like an hour or something like that, learn Kung Fu in an hour.
Andy Whyte:
If you were a salesperson of an FDA approved pill that did that, how would you be as a salesperson? You would be so confident. You wouldn't let anyone waste your time. If we take that mindset into sales, that's how we should be. There's two things that will happen. People won't waste your time, but also people are like one, “This guy seems very busy. I better make the most of his time before he goes on to the next person.” And that's kind of the mindset, I think we should have.
Will Barron:
For sure. That film, the NZT or B or whatever it's called-
Andy Whyte:
NZT.
Will Barron:
Is based on a drug called modafinil.
Andy Whyte:
Let me write that down.
Will Barron:
We're going off topic here. It's a narcoleptic drug, but people do use it as a smart drug. I've experimented with it in the past and it's not your… You barely notice it. What it does for me though, what it does in general, is why people use it as a smart drug, it removes that little bit of voice at the back your head when you go. “God, I was doing my accounting today. I've got to do this VAT return.” That little bit of voice doesn't exist, and you literally just sit down and do the work.
Will Barron:
So it doesn't turn you into an incredible author and a superstar kind of ladies man like it does in that film. I just thought it would be funny to mention, there are literally people selling that drug right now who are probably going… They're probably on the drug as well. They're probably going, “Yeah, I appreciate what you're saying here, Andy.”
Andy Whyte:
I didn't know that. I didn't know that.
Competitors In and Out of an Organisation You’re Trying To Sell To · [46:22]
Will Barron:
Well, there we go. Final thing here, competition. So you touched on at the top of the show, the fact that this isn't just our direct competitors, it's anyone who can take a budget. Is there anything else that we need to add to that to make that clear in the audience's minds?
“By the way, if a salesperson ever says, “There's no competition here,” they're either lying or they're not close enough to the deal.” – Andy Whyte · [46:54]
Andy Whyte:
No, I think that's it. It's anyone that can take not just the budget, but the resource as well. If your solution requires expertise or people to help implement it, then that can be a thing as well. That's a really, really important one. Because people just go… By the way, if a salesperson ever says, “There's no competition here,” they're either lying or they're not close enough to the deal.
Will Barron:
For sure. Okay. So just to wrap up then, I've got one final question that I ask everyone that comes on the how.
Andy Whyte:
Okay.
Andy Reveals the Steps Most People Get Wrong in the MEDDICC Methodology · [46:05]
Will Barron:
Well, before that, out of these one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight steps, if we include some of the extra ones, what do people get wrong the most? What's the biggest hurdle for salespeople? What if you could wave a magic wand and fix one of them would solve kind of 60-80% of your clients' issues?
“Stop calling coaches, stop calling the person that talks to you the most your champion. Test them, test them and test them. That's the one. When you have a champion, you know very, very quickly how you're going to win and if you're going to win.” – Andy Whyte · [47:34]
Andy Whyte:
Yeah, the one that people get wrong the most is their definition of metrics. But the one that will have the biggest impact of getting right is the qualifying criteria of the champion. Stop calling coaches, stop calling the person that talks to you the most your champion. Test them, test them and test them. That's the one. When you have a champion and you know very, very quickly how you're going to win and if you're going to win.
Will Barron:
Is that because people don't have a champion or is that because there's a champion there and we haven't identified them?
“If you're in the right deal and you've got the best value to offer, then the champion will be there. You just need to find them.” – Andy Whyte · [48:04]
Andy Whyte:
Well, I guess this comes back to qualification. If you're in the right deal and you've got the best value to offer, then the champion will be there. You just need to find them.
Will Barron:
Sure.
Andy Whyte:
And you've got to look high, low and wide for them. That's what salespeople are afraid to. It's hard. You upset people when you go high and wide and you go around people and you need to be kind of really confident in what you're doing. And here's the thing, if somebody is blocking you from talking to someone else that's going to progress your deal, they're not a champion. They failed the qualification of your success is their success. Yeah, you've got to get high and wide.
Andy’s Advise to His Younger Self on How to Get Better at Selling · [48:40]
Will Barron:
Love it. That makes total sense. Okay, Andy. Well, with that, final question, mate, that is given to everyone who comes on the show. If you could go back in time and speak to your younger self, what would be the one piece of advice you'd give him to help him become better at selling?
Andy Whyte:
What a great one. Listen to the Salesman Podcast.
Will Barron:
Nothing to do with the podcast and nothing to do with MEDDICC either.
Andy Whyte:
Well, this is genuinely what I would say is I would tell myself to ensure that I qualify out of deals more quickly. This is what I'd say. I guarantee the audience listening to this right now, ask yourself, have you or anybody you know ever regretted qualifying out of a deal? Have you ever qualified out and walked away and gone, “You know what? I could have won that one.” It never happens and here's the real goal of this.
Andy Whyte:
If you were to be qualifying out of a deal that you really should be winning, the customer will tell you. They'll say, “No, Will. Will, Will, Will, Will, Will! Stick with me here mate. We're onto something here. I know we're difficult to work with or I know I made it seem like I wasn't interested but I really am.” And so best case scenario, the customer starts paving because they've made you feel like you should qualify out or second best case scenario, it's not even a bad scenario. You save yourself a load of time and heartache by chasing [inaudible 00:49:51].
Will Barron:
I love that. I've had customers come back to me and apologise and they were trying to get a discount, they were trying to do this, they're trying to do that. Sometimes, they're just buying time. You feel like they're fobbing you off, but they're just buy in time because they know the budget is coming in six months and they're too nervous to tell you that they're embarrassed about it for whatever reason.
Parting Thoughts: Andy’s Book and How to Contact Him · [50:10]
Will Barron:
I love that. No one's ever said that on the show before, Andy. That's really insightful. I appreciate that mate. With that, tell us where we can find out more about you and then where we can find the book as well.
Andy Whyte:
Yeah, thank you. Well, the book is on Amazon. It's MEDDICC with two Cs, Andy Whyte is W-H-Y-T-E. The reason why I sort of laugh is because I found myself between two of the most unfortunate kind of ointments on the Amazon results page.
Andy Whyte:
Don't buy those or you can if you need them, no judgement . It's MEDDICC, it's on Amazon. You can find me at meddicc.com, M-E-D-D-I-C-C.com. Actually just to be awkward, my social profiles are @meddpicc on Twitter and on Instagram.
Will Barron:
Perfect. Well, I'll link to all of that in the show notes for this episode over at salesman.org. With that, Andy, I want to thank you for your time. I would love to have you back on to perhaps dive into two or three of these in more detail in the future. With that one, thank you again for joining us on Salesman Podcast.
Cold Calling 101: 5 Steps to Cold Calls That Work! | Selling Made Simple
Aug 11, 2022
Few things strike fear into the heart of sales reps quite like cold calling. Do you know where that fear comes from? A lack of control. The more control we have over any situation, the less afraid we’ll be. Same goes for cold calling.
So if you want to eliminate cold calling fears FOR GOOD, you just need a simple process or framework to follow so you know what to do at each step of the call. That’s where control comes from. And that’s what we’re talking about today.
The first step of the Cold Calling 101 is…
1. Confirm
Confirm you’re speaking to the RIGHT person. And that means the decision maker. You want to be speaking directly with whoever decides whether to buy. Because otherwise, you’ll be dealing with a gatekeeper who then has to go convince their boss to make the purchase. And along the way, your product’s value will likely be diluted.
So what does that sound like in practice?
“Hi, Will Barron from Salesman.org. Who’s in charge of sales training at X?
Scenario 1: “That’s me.” — Move on to the next step
Scenario 2: “That’s Barry.” — Now we need to get in touch with Barry.
“Ok thanks. Could you connect me with him? Can I tell them that you referred me?”
2. Break
This step is all about breaking the prospect out of their status quo, i.e. being comfortable with the solution they’re using right now. So ask them how their current solution is working out. As it turns out, most people will tell you there’s some kind of problem. Things could always be cheaper, faster, more effective.
So pop the question, like this:
“OK great, how are you training your sales reps right now?”
No matter what their response is, it’s important to still move on to the next step. Even if they tell you they’ve already got a solution that’s working great, still push forward to
3. Value
This is when you give a short snippet of the value you can offer. Don’t go too crazy on the details here. Just hit the biggest problem and the most important way what you’re selling solves it. One sentence should do the trick.
Now remember, you’ve got to push through to this step, regardless of whether they seem pleased or not with their current provider. Buyers will be open to new solutions more often than you might expect.
And if they push back, you only have three more sentences to get through (15 seconds max).
Now let’s look at what a value statement looks like in practice.
“We help salespeople find and close more sales in the next 30 days or your money back.”
See? Quick, succinct, and hit’s all the main points. Doesn’t have to be more complicated than that.
4. Tie-In
Here’s where you tie in the value of your product to what the prospect is going through.
How can you help? What kinds of benefits that matter to THEM can they expect to see from working with you?
And more than anything else, why the hell should they care?
Here’s what it might look like in our scenarios.
Scenario 1: “It seems like you’re not happy with your current sales training solution. Would it make sense to see if we can solve this problem for you?”
Scenario 2: “Would it make sense to see if we can turbocharge your current solution so you can train more effective sales reps more quickly?”
Once you bridge this gap, you can move on to the all-important final step…
5. Close
This is where the rubber meets the road ladies and gentlemen. Where everything you’ve done until now combines into the sweet success of a “yes” or the bitter pill of the “no”.
It’s time to make the ask.
Now of course the goal here isn’t to make the SALE. Because no one in their right mind is going to agree to buying after a thirty second conversation. Instead, your aim is just to set up a sales meeting. Schedule a call. That’s it.
So what does that look like?
“Ok great, it looks like we might be able to help. Does it make sense to jump on a quick 10-minute call tomorrow to discuss?”
Bam, simple as that.
Now the nature of cold calling here means you’re likely to get a “no”, even if you’ve done everything right. But that doesn’t mean it’s time to give up. Instead, give them your contact info and ask for theirs as well. You can then plug them into your nurture sequences so that if something DOES change on their end, you’ll be the ones at the top of their mind.
And if you get a “yes” out of it all, well then mark your calendar because you just scored a sales call with a brand new lead. Congrats!
Personal Branding Examples (How To Become A LEGEND In Your Industry!)
Aug 11, 2022
Do you want to become a legend in your industry?
How would that affect your sales performance? What would your day look like if you had inbound leads hitting your inbox rather than having to cold call until your fingers bleed from dialing?
On this episode of The Salesman Podcast, Shama Hyder shares a bunch of personal branding examples and a step by step process to getting known in your industry
Sharma is known as the “Zen Master of Marketing” by Entrepreneur Magazine and the “Millennial Master of the Universe” by Fast Company.
You'll learn:
Sponsored by:
Free SalesCode assessment
Learn your strengths and weaknesses in an instant. Taken by over 10,000+ of your competitors. Don't get left behind.
Take the free assessment
Featured on this episode:
Host - Will Barron
Founder of Salesman.org
Guest - Shama Hyder
Zen Master of Marketing
So I think as any good salesperson will tell you, especially in the B2B world, relationships are everything. So the first thing that you have to keep in mind, especially with something like personal branding, is that you're going to have to look at the ROI in both quantitative and qualitative ways. It's not necessarily about how many people can you get in front of, it's how are you viewed by that audience? Are you another salesperson? Are you a respected resource? Are you someone they feel looks out and has their best interests in mind?
Will Barron:
Hello sales nation, I'm Will Barron, host of the Salesman Podcast. The world's biggest B2B sales show where we help you not just take your target, but really thrive in sales. If you enjoy this content, make sure you click subscribe. And with all that said, let's meet today's guest.
Shama Hyder:
Hey, this is Shama Hyder founder and CEO of Zen Media.
Will Barron:
In this episode, we're diving into personal brand in sales. Why it's important, how to measure it, how to leverage it the best you possibly can, and the first thing you should do after consuming this content to make a real impact on LinkedIn in front of your potential customers. Let's jump in.
How to Analyze the Size and Depth of Your Personal Brand · [01:12]
Will Barron:
Before we dive into the how of building a personal brand. How do we, if we even can, how do we measure our progress with it? Is it the number of Twitter followers we have? Or for a B2B sales professional, is there a better way to measure the personal brand that we have in perhaps within our vertical?
Shama Hyder:
So I think as any good salesperson will tell you, especially in the B2B world, relationships are everything. So the first thing that you have to keep in mind, especially with something like personal branding, is that you are going to have to look at the ROI in both quantitative and qualitative ways.
Shama Hyder:
So the qualitative is that really important, hard to put numbers on at times, but just as important. So, it's your reputation, it's how someone says, “oh, you are everywhere”, or “I've heard of your company before”. Anybody who's been in sales knows the difference when they call someone and they get hung up on versus, “oh, I've heard of you guys”. And that's the game changer. When someone says, “I've heard of you”, and you have that instant credibility, your reputation precedes you. And I think that's what you're really looking for when you build a brand where you've already have that credibility, you have that respect, and you have that time. So if you get their time and you've got their attention, then you're one step closer to actually closing the sale.
The Benefits of Being Super Specific with the Type of Audience You Want Be In Front Of · [02:27]
Will Barron:
I think you just touched on something here and I think you consciously did this of being everywhere. And I think this is the salesperson's biggest competitive advantage versus the marketing team or other development teams in that, my background in medical device sales, there was only 16 urologists here in Yorkshire here in the UK that I needed to be in front of. If they all bought something from me every year, I'd smash my target, which was a couple of million quid. It's not that difficult to be everywhere in front of 16 people, versus a CEO of an organisation, your customers, you're trying to be in front of thousands of people. So how can we leverage this fact that we only need to be in front of a handful of people rather than tens of thousands? How can we leverage that as sales people versus perhaps how a marketer would?
“It's depth rather than breadth. And that is also something to be said about your personal brand. It's not a popularity contest. It's not how many people know you. It's what the people that you are trying to get in front of think of you. How are you creating resonance and relevance with that group?” – Shama Hyder · [03:17]
Shama Hyder:
Sure. So it's not necessarily about amplification all the time. And what I mean by that is it's not necessarily about how many people can you get in front of. Which of course, if you have a niche audience, that's not really the case. It's how are you viewed by that audience? Are you another salesperson? Are you a respected resource? Are you someone they feel looks out and has their best interests in mind? Are you someone they feel like keeps up with the industry, that cares about their patients, their practise. I think it's conveying all of this information. So it's depth rather than breadth. And that is also something to be said about your personal brand. It's not a popularity contest. It's not how many people know you. It's what the people that you are trying to get in front of think of you. How are you creating resonance and relevance with that group?
Who Decides How You Are Perceived in Your Industry? · [04:03]
Will Barron:
Before we've picked up the phone, perhaps they've Googled us before we've outreached to them, or perhaps we have outreached to them and we're in the process of booking call and they've Googled us. Who decides that initial perception of whether you are an industry thought leader, whether you are to be trusted? Is it the content that we put out? We'll touch on content in a second. Or is it how they interpret the content? If that makes sense. Who's in control of that initial, oh, that seems like a reasonable person to chat to.
Shama Hyder:
So it's a combination of things, . And here's the crazy thing. We often think it's one person it's not always one person. Especially if you look at B2B tech sales, what a lot of research shows is that it's a group decision making process now more than ever before. And so it's not always one person who says, “aha, I think X, Y, Z.” I think about, like I do keynotes all over the world and more and more, my bookings are by younger millennials, people who are not necessarily in decision making positions, and roles in their company, but they've read my books, they've followed for a while. And they're the ones that bring me to their bosses and they're “we got to get her in.” And so you've got to be able to realise that it's not a one track, you have this one person you need to influence. You also have to influence this sphere of people that influence their decisions.
Shama Hyder:
And what you're really looking for is content, but also consistency in that content. And that's the other mistake so many people make, especially salespeople, which is funny because sales is all about multi-touch, multi-point we all know this. And so it's funny because it's not about one tweet, one LinkedIn post. It's what you do consistently over time. And I feel like consistency is such an unsexy word. People don't like it. It's the cousin of prudence, . Nobody wants to hear the word consistency. But it's absolutely crucial when you're building brand and you're trying to build that trust and credibility and shorten your sales cycle.
Shama Hyder:
So for B2B folks, they say, that's the best thing you can do as you build these profiles, as you build this presence, you are going to shorten that sales cycle considerably. That doesn't mean you can be shortsighted about it because it does take time, but where something might have taken eight months, a year, can be a lot shorter because they already trust you. They already think that you are the best of the best.
How to Build a Personal Brand in B2B Sales · [06:56]
Will Barron:
For sure. I think it immediately separates you from the competition. If you're known, liked, and trusted within an industry, if you just do a couple of talks a year. I used to do it all the time to surgeons. I'd get up on stage and explain kind of the future of endoscopy, the different equipment that we're using. I worked for the two biggest competitors in the industry, so it'd be kind of a vendor agnostic. But I'd get people come and talk to me after the fact, and they'd very often become customers kind of a year or so down the line. So with that said, is there a series of things that B2B salespeople should be doing to build a personal brand? And then we can kind of dive into the nitty gritty of practically what they should be doing day in, day out. For example, context, speaking, are there any real high leverage items that people or activities people should be doing to build their personal brand in a specific vertical?
“The highest leverage thing that you can do to build your personal brand regardless of vertical, is perhaps the most important and the most overlooked, which is ask yourself why and what are you trying to accomplish?” – Shama Hyder · [07:13]
Shama Hyder:
The highest leverage thing that you can do to build your personal brand regardless of vertical, is perhaps the most important and the most overlooked, which is ask yourself why and what are you trying to accomplish? And I know this seems like a simple question, but it's amazing how many people dive in because they think that's what they're supposed to be doing without really saying, what's the goal? Am I looking to shorten that sales cycle? Am I looking to build trust? Am I looking to just get visible? Maybe my target market doesn't even know who I am. I don't even exist. What does that look like? And I think then the question becomes, and again, this is so important, how do I add value to my target market?
Shama Hyder:
This is the big difference I think between sales from yesteryear and sales now. Perhaps it's always been this way, but that it's highlighted so much more now, how can you add value to your given audience? Absolutely crucial in sales. And most people never ask themselves that. If you asked yourself that, get on stage, you would talk about these vendor agnostic solutions that there might have been, but you're really trying to educate and you're providing value. So whether that's through the stage, whether that's through online, that's the key. What is it that your audience is hungry for?
Shama Hyder:
And I'll go a little deeper into this Will, if you don't mind, because I think this might be helpful for your audience listening. So many people don't know this, but I did my thesis on Twitter when it had about 2000 users. Yeah, so it's crazy, long time ago, about 10 years now, today, of course, Twitter has 375 million users.
“Why do people use social media? And I think this is an important question to answer because before you can try to figure out how to use it, you have to understand what drives people to use it.” – Shama Hyder · [08:55]
Shama Hyder:
So very different landscape. One of the things that I looked at in my academic research for grad school was why do people use social media? And I think this is an important question to answer because before you can try to figure out how to use it, think you have to understand what drives people. Like as sales people, we're all about the motivation. What is the motivation? So when I looked at that, my hypothesis was that we use it to connect with each other, to have that sense of community, but I was wrong. The primary reason people use social media is to showcase their own identity. Okay. And I know it might sound narcissistic first glance, or, oh my God the world is a giant selfie.
Shama Hyder:
But if you stop and think about it, you realise that's how we've always become who we are. It's the feedback we get, who we are, and we adapt to fit our community and so forth. Identity is a very changing thing. But translate this to sales and marketing, and what this means is it used to be so much about what does your brand say about you? Like we've all been these branding exercises for a company perhaps, or we're looking at, what does our brand stand for? Who do we want to be? What do we… We've all been there, but what this research shows us is the right question to be asking isn't what does our brand say about us? The right question to be asking is what does doing business with us, allow our customers to say about their personal brand?
How Your Personal Brand Affects the People That Choose to do Business with You · [10:10]
Will Barron:
What would be an example of that in the B2B space?
“If someone chooses to do work with your company, they're doing it not because of what your company is, but what it allows them to say about themselves.” – Shama Hyder · [10:28]
Shama Hyder:
So if someone chooses to do work with your company, they're doing it not because of what your company is, but what it allows them to say about themselves. And so I'll give an example. We've done projects with McKinzie. They're a client, McKinzie Consulting. And so if you look at those guys, when people hire them, for business issues, big challenges, when the fortune 100 go to them for different things, they're going to them because it allows them to say, “we care about strategy and we're going to look for one of the best in the industry to help us”. It allows them to say about their brand. When a CEO hires a business coach, they're hiring someone because it says, “I care about my leadership. I care about my career. I care about this.” When people come to us for marketing and new media, and how do we how do we stay relevant and make sense in the digital age, what they're saying is “I want to be innovative. So I'm working with you”, and that's very important when you're in sales to try to figure out how can you help support your customer's goals?
Shama Hyder:
And I'll give you another great example. So Chase Business is one of our clients. We've got this amazing campaign with them right now called a Chase Bizmobile that has been going all across America. It's literally like an amazing trailer, for lack of a better word, but it's really outfitted cool. We help design, put it together, we got some great partners we're working with to roll that out. But the whole point was chase business, it's a bank, Chase is a bank they're in the banking business. But what they had to stop and ask themselves were “what does that mean for our customers?” And their customers are interested in their business. So Chase looked at it and said, “how do we help support our customers businesses?” Being, “yes we're their banking partner, but we want to be their business partner”. And so great kind of example of that, of where this Bizmobile that's going around, has expert advisors. We actually do a lot of these sessions for them on marketing, on technology, helping business owners, who are their customers, reach their goals.
Shama Hyder:
And so it's so easy, especially when you're in sales to get siloed. Like I am selling this one thing without saying, what is the goal of my customer, my client? What are you trying to do? And when you step back a little bit, it's amazing, think about the relationships that we have with someone when they say, “you know what, my product's not right for you. This is who you need to talk to”, or “you're just not ready for this yet. But let me tell you exactly what you need.” It's amazing when someone steps back and has true empathy for their customer, their client, and with that empathy helps them solve the greater issue. It may not be what they're looking for from you right now, but I promise you they'll think of you. They will turn to you. You will have their trust for when you need it.
Will Barron:
I'm going to give the audience a sneak peek here, and then we'll pull it back to the conversation because I've been following your Instagram, or the business' Instagram profile. So I've seen your Chase bus. And it's very similar to something that I want to do. I'm trying to work with a couple of the audience will… the biggest brands in the sales industry are kind of back and forth in negotiations over this. I really want to get a VW camper van and turn it into an interview, essentially, studio and drive around the UK and Europe interviewing business leaders and sales experts. So that's a sneak peek for the audience that might crop up before the end of the year. And I saw what you were doing on the Instagram profile. I was like, “yes, this is very similar, this is what I want to do moving forward”. So I'm glad we're on the same wavelength with that, but-
Shama Hyder:
Yeah, let us know if you need help designing it and getting it out there. So yeah, it's been such a fun campaign and that's a fabulous idea. And see the right brand partner, for example, Will, the person that partners with you on that or says, we want to sponsor this. They'll be really smart because their audience, who they want to get in front of is who's listening to this podcast. They're professionals, they already trust you, they enjoy the content, they trust that you're bringing good resources to them. So it's already a very natural fit and connection. And if they're smart, they're going to leverage that. So much of this becomes about making those connections and sales not being sort of a blunt force instrument, but really being fine tuned, looking for influencers who already have that trust, who have that credibility and then making smart partnerships and leveraging that to grow your brand further.
Will Barron:
Well, I'm going to take that clip where you said it was a smart move and show it to these organisations I work with. So thank you for that. That was awesome.
Understanding What Your Customer Really Needs · [15:05]
Will Barron:
But going back to the branding element of this, and kind of what we're talking about is high level. This is what an organisation could perhaps do. How do we narrow this down for an individual? And I had one idea that popped in my head as, you were talking Shama, of perhaps if we don't do a deal with someone without mentioning any names, that's a small blog post of, I couldn't work with this person because of X, Y, Z. I encourage them to look at 1, 2, 3. That's a nice little blog post that can be then shared around within your little niche, within your vertical. And I imagine if you did clearly, there's elements of being able to write and other things here, which we can perhaps drill down into a little bit deeper on the content creation front.
Will Barron:
But something like that builds trust, it shows that you're at least an expert in your product and the competitors as well. Is that something that we should be aiming for? Bits of content like this, that take a one-on-one conversation that salespeople have all the time, but then perhaps add a bit of scale to it, because 30 people can see it, 40 people can see it.
Shama Hyder:
Absolutely. If you are an individual, you also have this distinct advantage because you can step back and say, “what does my client really need?” And not just right now, but overall.
Shama Hyder:
So I'll give you a very simple example. Let's say you're in B2B sales for technology, for IT. Very common, you sell IT and you usually sell it to companies, startups that are growing really fast. Okay. I'm just making this up. So let's say your audience is startups that are scaling really fast and you give them IT infrastructure, great. You know, already that those startups are facing much greater challenges than just IT. It's not so much a stretch to put together a guidebook, a resource that says here's what working with so many startups that are scaling fast has taught us that we've been able to curate all this information and here's a directory of resources.
Shama Hyder:
Of course, you can have your IT, but maybe they need other things with HR. Maybe they need other things with finding good talent. And so maybe this is a resource book that helps them get where they need to go. And you're a part of that puzzle. But the more you can step back from “what's in it for me?”, and look into “how can I help them with the bigger picture?”, that's really where you're going to get the most bang for your buck.
Will Barron:
That makes total sense. And for me, medical device sales, I would put together and I carry out my own iPad. The corporate iPad that could never be touched or changed. I carry around my own iPad as well. And I had basically pinched a load of slides from the previous organisation I worked for, I re-rendered them with my own backgrounds and stuff. And the new call stats, corporate backgrounds from the new company I worked at and it had all our products, competitor products, the differences, the changes, the balances between the weight of the different elements of them. These are all like glass optical lenses that would go inside people. And surgeons loved it. And there was always a fine line to balance on because corporately they hated it, they didn't allow it, they told me off many times, but I kept doing it because it closed deals. People enjoyed it. And it was a reason, an opportunity to spend time with someone. And because it had not just our equipment in it, which the corporate one did, it had everything in it, people loved it.
How to Use Video Content as Your Competitive Advantage in Sales · [18:32]
Will Barron:
And so again, positioned you as a somewhat of an expert in the field. If you've got all this information about the competitors, and then they're just trying to pitch their own products, whereas you are kind of going across the board with this. But Shama for someone who can't… I'm an okay writer, I'm not a fantastic writer, I'm okay. From years of practise now doing the podcast and the blog content. For someone who sucks at writing, but, and there's a stereotype here perhaps, is somewhat chatty, somewhat charismatic, how does video play into all of this and how can video be a competitive advantage over someone who's just writing blog posts?
“64% of people will finish watching up to a 30 minute commercial video clip versus 24% that'll finish reading an article.” – Shama Hyder · [19:13]
Shama Hyder:
Yeah. So video's fantastic. I think sometimes the challenges with the opposite where you couldn't do video, but you're a good writer, you have to find the medium that makes sense for you. But video I'm so thrilled about because I've been gung ho on this for a long time. And if you look at the stats, they're so compelling, 64% of people will finish watching up to a 30 minute commercial video clip versus 24% that'll finish reading an article. That's staggering. And of course, some of some people on here might be like, “oh, but I love to read.” Yeah, but you are not your audience. I read these novels, like 800 page Diana Gabaldon books, I love it. But not everyone is that way. And the truth is, think about everyone on here listening, has at some point watched an infomercial and could not change the channel until someone else walked in the room and they said, “what are you doing?What are you watching?” And then they're like, “I don't know. But these knives though!” or, “Wow, Oxy really does get it clean!”
Shama Hyder:
I mean, we've all been there where we've been completely mesmerised or transfixed by something by video and it's human. It's human. So video was such an amazing tool. I'm very excited with what LinkedIn is doing with video right now. So LinkedIn to me is like a B2B salesperson's best friend. What an amazing platform. You can reach people, you can have valuable conversation, for nurturing, attraction, all those things, I love LinkedIn. And now with LinkedIn video, it's such a no brainer. So if you are in B2B sales and you haven't played with that yet, I highly recommend it because like all things, it will reach saturation and we will lose visibility.
Shama Hyder:
And I'll give you an example. This is the stuff I love talking about marketing, technology, so forth. I keynote somewhere, I do a quick video after, whatnot. I'm always sharing this information. Sharing these videos on YouTube, for example, just randomly might get like 4,000, 5,000 views. It's nothing crazy to write home about, but sharing that same video on LinkedIn very quick on my iPhone, shoot it, edit it, quick post, that maybe five minutes, maybe less, five minutes is kind of long. Usually mine are about two to three minutes. Will average a quarter million views within 48 hours and 10% engagement. So very high targeted audience, very engaged. And I find that fascinating, so I'm so gung ho about video. I think anyone who feels comfortable on camera should absolutely go for it. And the only way you learn is by doing, your first videos may be utter BS, but as you do [inaudible 00:21:37]
Will Barron:
Will be BS, right. It will a hundred percent be terrible. There's zero doubt in my mind, or I'm sure yours that everyone's first video after watching this is going to be absolutely atrocious, right?
Shama Hyder:
I cringe at mine. I mean, Will, when I started doing videos and I look back and I'm like, “what was I thinking?” Like I have my dog in my lap like I thought that was cute. I didn't know. It was really funny. So I look back and I'm like “ah, face Palm, these are so bad.” But I wouldn't be as comfortable as I am on camera doing the things that I'm doing if I hadn't gone through that process. Like there's not a shortcut through that. I do think you can have natural inclinations. Like I enjoy public speaking, I enjoy sharing my passions, so I have natural inclinations for that, but I definitely was not as good of a speaker or doing media interviews and stuff as I am now, because it was 10 years ago, that's a lot of practise show after show. So many things, and that's how you get better. But I am such a firm believer in video, highly think it's the highest ROI right now, especially if you're looking at LinkedIn.
Want to Create Your First Video For LinkedIn, Here’s a Topic Idea For You · [22:50]
Will Barron:
Perfect. And I want to offer the audience a challenge here, Shama, what should be the video that after listening to this, and most people listen to this, either driving the car or jogging, so please do it when you get to your office and please don't do it on the treadmill. Cause that's asking for a broken hip, what should the first video that they should be uploading be? What should the title be? What should the subject be? And I guess what's the generic kind of video that the audience should put out there, just to get the first one done, just to get it out?
Shama Hyder:
And if you do decide to stop what you're doing right now and take a funny video, please send it to Will and I, tag us, we love it. Don't hurt yourself, but I'm always up for a good laugh. So it's very simple, great question Will, very simple challenge. If everyone listening says “I want to do this, I don't really know like how to start”, start with the most simple thing possible, which is, I'll give you two prompts. You can choose one or the other. You can either do what I wish every single one of my clients knew. And you could do that so quickly because I promise if I asked almost anyone on this podcast, what's the one thing you wish your clients knew, you'd have an answer, whatever that was. Like “do this early and do this before you actually need it”. Or whatever it may be, or “don't listen to X, Y, Z”. So what is that?
Shama Hyder:
My second prompt would be share what is it that you have learned as a professional? What's the one thing that you really distilled in all your years? And it may be that relationships matter, it may be that having a good mentor at work, whatever it is, share something that's valuable. And again, you'll notice it has nothing to do with your industry particularly. But these are two really good starting points. And you can choose either/or.
Will Barron:
Yeah. And that's almost a full podcast, video, YouTube, Instagram, LinkedIn series there of, every week what's the one thing I wish my clients knew this week? Or what's the one thing I've learned this week, that could help my clients? That's super simple. And if you've connected with the right people on LinkedIn and hopefully you've messaged them, you've not just spammed them a bunch of connection requests, you've gone back and forth with them. The engagement there is going to bring that up in the feed. And if they're on LinkedIn regularly, you are going to be top of mind constantly. Even if they don't watch the video, they're going to see your face, right. And how powerful is that?
Shama Hyder:
Yeah. And I it's funny I do these videos and people tell me all the time when I run into them, they're like, “oh my God, I've seen your videos like 15 times, they pop up” and the thing is you have to play to algorithms, and right now LinkedIn is giving preferential treatment to video. So absolutely ride that wave.
Things That Can Negatively Affect Your Personal Brand · [25:20]
Will Barron:
Perfect. So a couple more things I want to ask you before we kind of wrap up here, Shama, and the first one, and this is something I'm trying to ask people more often, is there anything that you've done that has negatively affected your personal branding over the past few years? Is there anything that stood out, maybe it's a cautionary tale or maybe it was just something that didn't really massively, significantly impact it, but would be interesting for the audience?
Shama Hyder:
Yeah. You know, I would say the biggest thing again, what I said is the opposite of, it's not staying consistent. So what's funny, like even on Instagram, and my team really gets on me about this because I'm so sometimes busy doing, that they're like “you got to share, share, share, share.” So now I've gotten better and I send my team things because we're creating so much content all the time. But documenting that process I think is important. And so times where I've seen that dip is when I have not been consistent in sharing my stories and continuously building that brand.
“We live in such a fast paced world that you have to stay consistent to stay top of mind. And as we know, so much of the game of sales is staying top of mind.” – Shama Hyder · [26:48]
Shama Hyder:
And it's so funny you say personal brand and the perception is like a celebrity or building a brand for the sake of building a brand. But really when I say personal brand, I'm much more mean like your reputation, the value you're bringing, the community you're building. Even, when I go a couple of weeks without sharing something and I do then, my community says, “oh my God, where have you been?” So I'm like “oh, okay”. So it's funny, we live in such a fast paced world that you have to stay consistent to stay top of mind. And as we know, so much of the game is staying top of mind.
Being Personal Versus Professional In Your LinkedIn Videos · [27:35]
Will Barron:
And people are interested in you as well, right. And tell me if I'm totally wrong here, I think that's still important in B2B sales. So this is clearly a business to business audience that I've built here. You know, probably 20 odd thousand people will listen to this audio anywhere from, well, we've had anywhere from kind of a thousand to a hundred thousand people will watch the YouTube video depending on the YouTube algorithm.
Will Barron:
People ask me, as much as questions I get asked about sales or how I should do this, or I want get a promotion. I get asked about this car, this GTR that I'm aspiring to own in the future. People seem to be just as bothered about my buying ridiculous things that are total waste of money, as they are with improving the sales skills, which is why they're watching the show in the first place. So how much of a personal element should we be adding to all this, versus being the stereotype of a dude in a badly fitting suit stood there of his video going buy my products because you know, the great, how much of it should be? How, how much of ourselves should we be injecting into all of this?
Shama Hyder:
Yeah. So it's really funny that you say that. And yes, people are extremely curious about my life. In fact, some of the Google auto searches that auto correct with my name are hilarious and I won't even go into them. But it's so funny. And to me, it's not about how much of your personal life are you sharing, it's more about how relevant can you be to your audience? I don't think me sharing what I'm having for dinner is necessarily relevant to my audience. So I don't share it. I will say that being said, of course, all B2B sales is also B2B to C, which is we're human. And so even when you're selling to a business, you are selling to a human being, and I think that's such an important distinction.
Shama Hyder:
So many times we say, “oh, it's B2B, it's different than B2C”. Yes and no, because at the end of the day, you're still buying from people you trust, you still want that experience. I do think it's important to be personable. I do think it's important to be transparent. I do think it's important to be honest, that means saying, sorry when you're sorry. That means saying thank you so much when you feel gratitude. That means letting people in a little bit so they know that you're human, that you have a family that you care about certain things that you care about your community. And that makes people want to do business with you more. I love supporting small businesses for example, or I love supporting people that I know have a greater mission or vision.
Shama Hyder:
Of course we're human, we're attracted to that. So I think that's important, but people will always be curious about a million things. And I do walk that line finely because I do think about, is that relevant? Is that going to help them succeed in the digital age, because that's what I'm all about, that's my brand. And here's the craziest thing that I actually was just giving a keynote yesterday. Was it yesterday? Two days ago? Oh my God. I go through so many time zones, I have a hard time keeping up.
Shama Hyder:
So I was talking to this group, also B2B. And I told them that the biggest shift that I have seen in the last few years in B2B is that the bar is now so much higher. And what I mean by that is in B2B. And I'm sure like being in medical sales, you can attest to this. The bar was so much lower, for example, if you had a website, it was awesome because all your competitors still had old school catalogues. But you had a website, so you were winning. Now, it's funny though, because your buyer, your B2B buyer is no longer comparing you to your competitors and saying, “well, they got catalogues, but at least this guy's got a website.” What they're looking at is “I just had this amazing experience at the Apple Store. Now I'm buying this. And I expect that same experience”.
“The expectations for B2B buyers are no longer different, they're higher. They don't care if you're better than your second rate competitors. What they care about is, “I just had Amazon experience. I just had the Apple experience. I just had a Zappos experience. This is the experience I expect across the board.” And so that means that you really have to take a look at how you sell and how you market and how you stand out because your competition is no longer just other B2B companies.” – Shama Hyder · [31:07]
Shama Hyder:
That level of expectation, and that frictionless ness that we, as connected consumers and my team at Zen Media does a lot of research around the connected consumer, and what that really means. I mean, it's technically all of us. How we buy, how we make decisions, B2B or B2C, how do you stay relevant? But what I find fascinating is this, the expectations for B2B buyers are no longer different, they're higher. They don't care if you're better than your second rate competitors. What they care about is, “I just had Amazon experience. I just had the Apple experience. I just had Zappos experience. This is the experience I expect across the board.” And so that means there have to be some very deep cultural shifts. You really have to take a look at how you sell and how you market and how you stand out because your competition is no longer just other B2B companies.
Will Barron:
It's funny you should say this, and we'll wrap up with this and I've got two points I don't want to gloss over. You mentioned them, which I think are really valuable for Sales Nation, everyone listening. But funny you should mention catalogues, the last company I worked for, to get a online version of the catalogue, you had to go through this massive rigmarole of who you are, what you're doing, and then they would only send you a PDF of one particular part of the catalogue. They wouldn't send you the whole thing because heaven forbid the competitor might get a hold of it. And this was three years ago or three and a half years ago, this wasn't 20 years ago or whenever the internet was created 1994, 96, when they would to send a catalogue that size would be a logistical problem through the terrible dial up that everyone had.
Will Barron:
This was literally three and a half, four years ago. They would not give out a PDF version of the catalogue, because they were concerned that the competitor would have it. Everyone knew in the back of my car, my company car, I had a catalogue from each of the competitor companies and I was just a rep. So you, the corporation must have had them as well. It was ridiculous. But two things you mentioned here. One, if you're doing video content, if you doing any content really, having a set of rules in place I think is important. And I do this to kind of not have a blurred line between the content I put out with the podcast, with the sales school, which is coming soon and everything else.
Will Barron:
For example, my girlfriend's a doctor. I never mention her name, where she works, anything like that because she asked me not to. I don't really record any content outside of the studio, the office or any live events that we do with the sales and podcast live. I don't really record content when I'm in the car or around where we live or if I'm out walking or running or anything like that. So I keep all that to myself. So having a set of rules I think is perhaps useful for the audience and paradoxically, it'll help you create more content faster if you've got a set of rules to go against.
Will Barron:
And the other thing, and I'm conscious of time so we won't dive into it, but having some kind of mission or goal or something in your personal life that you're aiming towards, where you're trying to create business, create value, earn commissions because you want to do X, Y, and Z. I think is super powerful to include into your, your videos, your content, wherever you're doing your personal brand. And it makes you more human. So one of my passions is educating people about science and get people excited about science. We've got a whole other podcast that does that very thing. And I kind of intertwine the two here because people then will be asking me, “well, what about the other podcast? Oh, I love science as well”. And it kind of makes me more human and builds a deeper relationship with those individuals who listen to the B2B sales stuff.
Shama’s Advice to Her Younger Self on How to Become Better at Selling · [34:10]
Will Barron:
And with all that said, woo, I feel like I need a breath after rabbiting through all that. I just don't want to gloss over them. The excellent points you made Shama. I just wanted to kind of double down on them. I've got one final question to ask everyone that comes on the show. Your answer cannot be personal branding because this is probably part of it. So anything other than personal branding, but if you could go back in time and speak to your younger self, what would be the one piece of advice you'd give her to help her become better at selling?
Shama Hyder:
You know, as cliched as it is, and I'd heard this when I was younger, I don't think I fully understood it until more recently. And that is the value of relationships. And I think you hear that and you think ah, yes, like meet people, get to know what they need. But what I mean by that is like today, if you look at the clients that we work with, there are people and human beings I have such high respect for. I hold them in such high esteem, and I think that is a relationship, right. There is a depth there. I love these people outside of work, and the way you do this is you invest. You get to learn about their families, you get to learn about what motivates them, what they care about.
Shama Hyder:
And I think when I was younger, I heard that and saw it more superficially. I understood what that meant as my family and people closest to me. I didn't know what that translated to in the broader sense of that true word. Or I heard the very bro version of wine and dine. And I was like, “what's that?” It just felt still very, to me, kind of manipulative in a way, like you have an agenda. You're driven in that way. Well, today, what I have an understanding of now is it's not about an agenda. It's genuinely having that empathy and caring about someone and knowing where they're coming from and connecting on that deeper level. And then if you end up doing business, great.
“Throughout history, whoever controlled information had power because access to information was limited. So if you had information, you had an advantage. Well, the internet changed all of that. Now everybody has information. That's no longer the differentiator. So the differentiator becomes who can then best take that information and distill it in a way that turns knowledge into wisdom, that takes data and turns it into insight.” – Shama Hyder · [36:38]
Shama Hyder:
And I think coming from that place has really shifted my perception and my view of work. And I will say this Will, to add to your point where you were talking about, I think this is so crucial for B2B folks in general, we no longer live in the information age. And what's fascinating is what you said, so many B2B companies, and I hear this all the time, especially from younger folks who are like, “my boss doesn't want me to share, because they're afraid our competitors will know.” I'm like “news flash, they already know.” So throughout history, I think what was fascinating was whoever controlled information had power. The church, for example, I mean anybody who controlled information had power because access to information was limited. So if you had information, you had an advantage.
Shama Hyder:
Well, the internet changed all of that. Now everybody has information. That's no longer the differentiator. So the differentiator becomes who can then best take that information and distil it in a way that turns knowledge into wisdom? That takes data and turns it into insight?
Shama Hyder:
And what you're doing with this podcast here is a great example. There is so much stuff on sales and B2B sales. It is mind boggling. But the reason you have millions of people listening and downloading this is because you are able to create that filter. You're able to ask the right questions, bring on guests. I mean, I know you let them so thoroughly. It's taken us a while to even get to this point, which is awesome. But see, so you have power because you are a curator, you are a filter. So as we talk about B2B and you wrap up about personal branding, it's how can you as a salesperson be that filter for your customers. And they're so hungry for that. Everyone has information, the key to winning now and in the future, is how can you create context and be relevant?
Parting Thoughts · [38:01]
Will Barron:
[inaudible 00:38:07]
Shama Hyder:
We work with clients around the globe. You can check us out at zenmedia.com. And of course my personal site, ShamaHyder.com. I'm on all the social platforms. So feel free to pick your poison and I'm happy to connect.
The 5-Step Cure To Low B2B Sales Motivation
Aug 10, 2022
“What's my motivation?”
Expert Note:
“By a massive long shot, salespeople's biggest pain point is a lack of motivation”
Kim Walsh
Salesman Podcast
Clichéd as it is, this question still resonates today. And not just with actors. But with retail workers, executives, laborers—with everyone.
For sales reps, in particular, keeping up their sales motivation day after day is often a struggle. Boredom, anxiety, hopelessness, and downright depression can all be expected in the face of a too-far-off sales goal. And for some, the harder they seem to work, the less they seem to earn.
If this sounds all too familiar, don't worry: You're not alone.
But luckily, there's a way out. It just takes a bit of strategic work on your part.
This guide shows you how to overcome a lack of sales motivation using a proven 5-point framework. And with it, you can boost your numbers, blow past your goals, and achieve more success as a sales rep.
The Secret to Sales Motivation (Forget The Stupid Sales Quotes)
Sales motivation is a tricky beast.
On the one hand, it can inspire you to take on new challenges. On the other hand, it can give you the energy you need to truly test your limits. And it can be the impetus to winning record-level sales.
But there's a dark side to motivation, too. If you relysolely on motivation to get things done, you're only setting yourself up for failure.
For example, on high motivation days, you may feel bulletproof. You're packing your pipeline full of prospects, piquing the interest of leads, and closing deals like a boss. But on the bad days, you're erasing all of that progress. As a result, you're missing out on perfect closing opportunities, forgetting to follow up, and letting ideal buyers slip through your fingers again and again.
So, how do you keep the sales motivation going? How can you wake up energized, enthusiastic, and eager to achieve every day?
You can't.
Surprised? Don't be.
We are all human. We are all prone to having good days and bad ones. And anyone who tells you otherwise is selling you snake oil.
Instead, you need discipline.
“Motivation gets you going, but discipline keeps you growing. That's the Law of Consistency. It doesn't matter how talented you are. It doesn't matter how many opportunities you receive. If you want to grow, consistency is key.” – John C. Maxwell
You don't need a sales rep motivation magic pill (because it doesn't exist). Instead, you need a system that takes motivation out of the equation entirely. And you need a way to succeed day in and day out—on the good days and the bad.
And that's where the Selling By the Numbers 5-Point Framework comes in.
The Selling By the Numbers Framework
The Selling By the Numbers Framework is a simple yet effective way to take progressive steps towards meeting your goals every single day.
It's numbers-focused, yes. But it's not overly technical.
And don't be fooled here—this is not a one-size-fits-all approach. Instead, the Selling By the Numbers Framework is a way of reverse-engineering your goals so you can better understand the steps you need to take to achieve them.
The best thing about the Selling By the Numbers Framework helps boost your sales motivation when followed correctly. It'll also improve your performance, focus, help you beat fear and win more business.
Here's how.
A) Single Path to Success
A significant factor in feeling unmotivated in a sales position is not knowing whether the steps you're taking actually lead towards a win.
Maybe right now, you're “winging it”—you're reaching out to prospects when it feels right, switching up your cadences on a day-by-day basis, and trying out different approaches whenever you read about them.
This attitude to setting goals isn't going to help you crush your performance targets.
While there's value in experimentation, this haphazard approach doesn't let you determine what's working and what isn't. And as a result, you're left wondering what you did wrong when you haven't met your quota for the month.
The Selling By the Numbers Framework gives you clear, weekly (and even daily) goals so you can quickly know when you're winning and when you're failing.
And that clarity will keep you pushing forward.
B) Easy to Communicate
The framework is also simple to understand and break down for others.
But how does that keep you motivated?
On the one hand, the simplicity makes it a snap to keep sales managers and other members of your sales team onboard. A clear and quantitative end goal, regular waypoints to track progress, a focused roadmap you can refer to daily—it's a dream for the higher-ups. And the more your supervisors get behind a plan, the easier it is for you to stay on track.
Beyond that, the framework's simplicity also makes it great for teaching to the rest of your sales team. With more hands-on deck, you can continually refine the process to make it even more effective.
C) Forces You to Decide What You Want
This one's important.
Money isn't everything. It's important, sure. And having a lot of it is certainly a reasonable goal. But feeling satisfied in sales doesn't always have to be about reeling in a massive paycheck and owning ever crazy resources.
This framework forces you to decide what's important to you. For example, are you looking for a way to finance a new home purchase? Do you want to demonstrate consistency and reliability to help accelerate your career? Are you trying to find a better work-life balance?
Maybe you want to work in sales, win the incentives and release the pressure by semi-retiring at 40 rather than 70. I encourage you to forget the motivational sales quotes as you go through this framework and really focus on what you want to achieve in your career.
By setting precise goals and following the plan each day, you can rest assured you're continually working towards those goals.
D) Walk Away When You Want
Last but not least, the Selling By the Numbers Framework gives you more control over lead management.
How many times have you had to deal with a pain-in-the-butt buyer? They're sucking up all your time. They're rude. And to be perfectly honest, they're probably leading you on a wild goose chase.
With this framework, you can easily refer to your plan, see if you need that buyer to hit your numbers, and if not, walk away from all the trouble.
And that kind of freedom is inspirational in and of itself.
The Downside of Not Selling By the Numbers
Beyond those benefits, there are also plenty of downsides to not selling by the numbers. Here are just a few of the biggest.
A) You Don't Know What Works
When you don't follow a clearly defined framework, you're working from instinct rather than hard data.
Sure, some salespeople get lucky. Maybe they catch a windfall client out of nowhere. And perhaps they succeed against all odds using a slapdash approach.
But without a step-by-step plan, you can't collect the data points to see what's working and what isn't. That means you can't refine your process. You can't replicate great results. And you can't know for sure you're on the path to success.
B) Relying on the Unreliable
To people outside of your profession, sales is all about charisma. It's about charm, magnetism, and talking your way into a deal.
But as a salesperson yourself, you know the gift of gab can only get you so far.
A master charmer can certainly seduce some buyers into eating into their budget. But more often than not (and especially in the B2B space), a salesman that relies entirely on their charisma is a salesman that doesn't consistently hit their numbers.
With the Selling By the Numbers Framework, you're putting in the work every day. And that means you don't have to bet the farm on charming your buyer into a sale.
C) Stuck in the “Work Harder” Trap
Finally, the framework lets you break free from the “work harder” trap.
Researching and trying new sales approaches every week is hard.
Guessing at what went right (and what made you fail) is hard.
Working overtime again and again to make your number is hard.
Convincing your manager that next month will be different is hard.
This framework gives you a simpler, clearer path to consistent success. No guesswork. And no more working harder, just smarter.
Breaking Down the Selling By the Numbers Framework
So, what is the Selling By the Numbers Framework?
Essentially, this framework starts from the end and moves backward to define how to get there. It does so in just five steps:
Define Your Wants
Set Your Income Goal
Determine Your Starting Point
Establish Your Waypoints
Create Your One-Page Plan
Now let's dive a bit deeper into each step.
1) Define Your Wants
Part of what makes this framework so effective is the fact that you're beginning with the end—what you want to achieve—and reverse engineers those results.
So let's start there. What do you want?
The simplicity of the question is deceptive, though.
“More money,” for example, is a goal. But it's not an end goal because it doesn't get to the WHY of it all. Do you want more money to fund your child's college? Do you want more money so you can be in a similar income range as your social circle? Is it all about getting that shiny new Corvette?
There are two things important here.
Dig Deep – Find out what's truly important to you. What do you want to achieve this year? What do you want to buy, to be, to do, or to have?
Make It Concrete – The only way this framework is effective is if you can work back from a solid, non-abstract goal.
Defining your ultimate goal and keeping it front of your mind is key to staying motivated. Perhaps Jarrod Glandt, President of Grand Cardone Enterprises, put it best in our interview:
Expert Note:
“That doesn't mean you have to have a million-dollar goal, but you have to figure out what's important to you, and you have to figure out a way to drive towards that every day. Otherwise, you will end up lacking purpose and lacking drive and lacking motivation, and then you're just going to be unhappy.”
Jarrod Glandt
Sales Leadership Show
2) Set Your Income Goal
Next, it's time to set your yearly income goal.
Working backward from the want you defined in the previous step, determine how much income you'll need to make to achieve that want.
This step is pretty easy if it's a tangible good that you're after (like a car). But, first, find out how much extra income you'll need to afford that good comfortably and tack it onto your current income.
For wants that you don't need to be fulfilled right away (like saving for your child's college), determine how much you'd like to save per year by working backward. For example, if you want to send your child to an Ivy League school, you can expect to pay about $225,000 in tuition. Over 15 years, you'd have to save an additional $15,000 per year.
If your want is to be offered a promotion, you'll have to do a bit more thinking. Maybe becoming lead sales rep for 3 years running is the ticket to getting noticed at work. In that case, the goal is to bring in more sales than other reps on your team.
3) Determine Your Starting Point
The next step is to take stock of where you're starting from.
This, again, is simple—where are you now compared to your income goal?
No need to overcomplicate things right now. Just take what you've earned already and subtract it from the final goal.
After that, you'll also want to take into account the givens this year. Do you have returning customers that are going to be a consistent source of recurring revenue? Are you midway through a sure-thing deal and are just waiting to collect your commission? Are you going to be losing a longtime customer?
Think about what is already scheduled for this year that's going to impact your income and build that into the difference you calculated earlier.
4) Establish Your Waypoints
This is where things get slightly more complicated.
Now it's time to build out the quarterly, monthly, weekly, and even daily waypoints you need to hit to earn your income goal and achieve your final want.
Try to make these waypoints as specific as you can using data from your customer relationship management (CRM) tool—more on that later. Look at historical tables to find out precisely how many touchpoints it took to close a successful sale.
For instance, your data might look something like this:
Sales target = $15,000
Average dollar value of closed deals = $1,000
Calls made = 2400
Decision makers spoken to = 480
Discovery calls scheduled = 120
Demos scheduled = 60
Proposals given = 30
Closed deals = 15
Then, break down that data into quarterly, monthly, weekly, and perhaps daily goals.
Using the data above, your goals might look like this:
*Note: As your timeline gets shorter (e.g., daily goals), the math doesn't always translate perfectly. As such, you may want to reserve more time-intensive plans for longer timelines (e.g., closing deals on a monthly rather than weekly basis).
Quarterly
Calls made = 600
Decision makers spoken to = 120
Discovery calls scheduled = 30
Demos scheduled = 15
Proposals given = 8
Closed deals = 4
Monthly
Calls made = 200
Decision makers spoken to = 40
Discovery calls scheduled = 10
Demos scheduled = 5
Proposals given = 3
Closed deals = 2
Weekly
Calls made = 48
Decision makers spoken to = 10
Discovery calls scheduled = 3
Demos scheduled = 2
Daily
Calls made = 10
Decision makers spoken to = 2
Discovery calls scheduled = 1
5) Create Your One-Page Plan
Last but certainly not least, you need to create a one-page plan outlining the entire framework.
Important: this is not meant to be exhaustive.
Don't treat this one-pager like the single note-card you could bring to class—crammed from edge to edge with information.
Instead, this is the boiled-down version that hits the core of each step.
Yours might look something like this.
My One-Page Plan
Want: To have enough money saved up over 15 years to pay for Molly's tuition in full.
Income Goal: $150,000 per year
Starting Point: $130,000 + $5,000 recurring yearly revenue (additional $15,000 per year needed)
My Waypoints:
Quarterly
Calls made = 600
Decision makers spoken to = 120
Discovery calls scheduled = 30
Demos scheduled = 15
Proposals given = 8
Closed deals = 4
Monthly
Calls made = 200
Decision makers spoken to = 40
Discovery calls scheduled = 10
Demos scheduled = 5
Proposals given = 3
Closed deals = 2
Weekly
Calls made = 48
Decision makers spoken to = 10
Discovery calls scheduled = 3
Demos scheduled = 2
Daily
Calls made = 10
Decision makers spoken to = 2
Discovery calls scheduled = 1
Time to Execute: What You Need to Know to Get Started
Now that you have a better understanding of the sales motivation framework let's dive a bit deeper into the details.
What kind of information will you need to establish your waypoints? What research will you have to do on your accounts before getting started? And what considerations do you need to include in your calculations?
The specifics will vary among industries and positions. But below are some of the most common pieces of information you'll need to consider along the way.
A) Your List of Prospects
How many prospects do you currently have in your pipeline? How many do you need to hit your goals according to your conversion rates?
You'll need to consider this information when building out your daily, weekly, monthly, and quarterly strategies.
According to HubSpot, more than 40% of salespeople say prospecting is the most challenging part of the sales process. So be sure to factor extra time into your days for it.
B) Average Account/Order Size
How big is your average account or order size? And how much will you be pocketing as a commission?
Obviously, larger average order sizes mean you'll have to close fewer deals to reach your income goal. But you may have to spend more time on nurturing along the way too.
C) Average Touchpoints/Time to Close Sale
Is your sales cycle long and complicated? Does closing the sale from start to finish take days, weeks, or even months? How many times do you need to talk to a prospect before they're ready to sign on as a client?
This is another important consideration when building out your milestones. Most CRMs should make this info readily available too.
HubSpot reports that most B2B prospects will need about eight touchpoints before a sale. But every business is different, so be sure to calculate yours rather than just relying on industry averages.
D) Average Number of Sales Closed vs. Touchpoints Started
Piggybacking off the last point, you'll also need to calculate your close rates compared to the number of touchpoints started.
This stat will be helpful in determining where you start hitting diminishing returns with your touchpoints. For example, you may find that most prospects will need six touchpoints before a sale. But do an additional two touchpoints increase the odds of closing? Or is it just wasting your time?
Understanding this information will help you plan out your daily goals and what's needed to close a sale most effectively.
E) The Gap
This is essentially the third step of the framework.
How far are you right now from reaching your income goal? How many accounts will you have to close on to achieve that goal? How many new accounts will you have to bring on according to your conversion rate? And how many calls, emails, and messages will you need to make to sign those accounts?
F) Is This Even Possible?
This is vital—is this even possible?
Take a quick look at your team's sales history. How many clients do you bring on per year? How does your goal compare to that average?
Ambition can be a great driving force. But goals so lofty that they're unrealistic aren't helping anyone. In fact, they'll likely only end in disappointment.
So be sure your goals are ambitious, just not foolhardy.
G) Determine Your Waypoints
With all the information you've gathered, it's time to build out your waypoints.
It's essential to be exacting here. And during your calculations, be sure to factor in vacations, holidays, sick days, and other time off work like seminars.
H) Create Your One Sheet & Follow Religiously
Finally, you've got all the information you need to create your one-page plan.
It should include each step of the framework:
Your Ultimate Want
Your Income Goal
Your Starting Point + Your Gap
Your Detailed Waypoints
Take this one-page plan, print it out, and place it in your workspace so it's always visible. The power of this plan is that you can refer to it whenever you want. So the more front-and-center, the better.
Wrap Up
Maintaining sales motivation is one of the biggest hurdles sales reps like you will face. Some days you may wake up energized and ready to take on the world. But on others, you may feel like Sisyphus stuck rolling the metaphorical boulder up a never-ending mountain.
That's why it's so important to take motivation out of the picture using the Selling By the Numbers Framework. With this framework, you can rest easy knowing you're making strides towards your goals every single day, even on your worst days.
And ultimately, it's what you need to be happier, more successful, and more motivated as a salesperson.
As sales coach Beth Benatti Kennedy put it in our interview:
Expert Note:
“Resilience is actually moving forward. It's dealing with those challenges but being able to say I have the toolkit, so I can move forward. [Resilient salespeople] not only handle the challenges, but they also hit their numbers, and they also have very high career satisfaction.”
Beth Benatti Kennedy
Salesman Podcast
Salespeople - Stop Trading Time For Money! | Selling Made Simple
Aug 09, 2022
A lot of sales reps I work with have been caught in the time/money trap – what they make is DIRECTLY tied to how much they work. But the great thing about sales is you can create a “flywheel” system that SCALES UP your ability to earn without requiring more of your time.
And if you put in a bit of effort, your flywheel system will pay off BIG TIME.
What Is The Flywheel?
Let’s talk about what a flywheel is. Literally speaking, a flywheel is a heavy wheel that, when turned, continues revolving over and over again thanks to its size and momentum.
Think of the Price is Right. You know the big, heavy wheel at the end that keeps spinning and spinning? Like that.
Now what does this have to do with sales?
Well when you first start out in this job, it takes a LOT of effort to get things rolling. Making those first few sales, building up your network from scratch, getting into the groove with your processes—it’s a ton of work.
But once you DO start making progress, your flywheel starts spinning on its own momentum.
And that means:
You can ask for referrals
People in the industry already know you before you even reach out
Your sales process gets refined and improved
You can farm/upsell current customers rather than having to do lots of cold outreach
Simply put, everything gets easier.
You don’t have to work as hard to see results. And that means less effort for better outcomes.
The flywheel does all the work for you.
How Do You Get Your Flywheel Moving?
How do you get your flywheel moving? And just as importantly, how do you get it moving faster?
Well we’ve got three strategies covering just that. And we’ll start with…
1. Impetus
As the old saying goes…
“The best time to plant a tree is 20 years ago. The second best time is today.”
Procrastination is wasted time. And the sooner you start doing something, anything for your future, the more that investment is going to pay off.
On top of that, it takes a LOT longer than you think to build a successful business or brand—7 to 15 years according to some experts. Do you want to be raking in the spoils of your success when you’re 35 or would you rather be on your way to 60?
If you’re looking for low-risk, high-reward things you can start doing TODAY to get things spinning, start spending more time with social selling. Interact with industry experts on LinkedIn. Connect with others you’ve met or talked to over email. Start building insightful, valuable content of your own.
But no matter WHAT you do, just do SOMETHING.
2. Focus
I’ve seen so many reps fall victim to having too many irons in the fire. It seems like a good idea at first, right? Diversify your approach. Casting a wider net yields more fish. Yada yada.
But what they don’t tell you is that you have a limit to the amount of energy you can spend. There are only so many hours in a day. You only have so much work you can do before you snap. And life, at least one worth living, isn’t just about the work.
So what you need to be doing is focusing your flywheel.
Stop spending time and energy on the tasks that don’t drive results. Don’t send in that RFP for a deal you’re never going to get. Cut out the in-person meetings that you’re always ditched on. Find what ISN’T WORKING. And get rid of it.
On the other side of that, double down on what IS working. Find the one channel that’s driving the most sales, whether it’s cold outreach, upselling current customers, targeting inbound leads—whatever.
And then hit that channel HARD. Get good at it. Like really good. And spend the majority of your efforts on knocking that channel out of the park.
Once you start seeing some really killer success here, only then should you think about getting your other flywheels going.
3. Scale
Your time is best spent on the activities that scale your earnings, that multiply your value without multiplying your work.
These are the activities that you can perform across your clients without having to deal with any guesswork.
For example, how are you following up with first-touch leads? Are you just emailing them randomly whenever they pop into your head? Or are you following a strategic cadence that’s proven effective?
The second option is of course going to be the best. When you follow a system, a framework, you don’t have to spend time guessing, hemming and hawing. Instead, you just follow the steps, 1…2…3…4… And because it’s so systematized, you can knock out MORE follow up work in LESS time than if you handled things randomly.
The hard part is knowing where to start with cadences. But not to worry, I’ve got you there too.
This is one of the starter cadences you’ll find in the Selling Made Simple Academy. Feel free to use it as a jumping off point for your leads too.
Day 1 – Connect on LinkedIn
Day 3 – Email – Case study for a related business using your product
Day 10 – Email – Link to a “how-to” blog post that focuses on a common problem in their industry and how your product can help solve it
Day 12 – Call > Voicemail to explain that you’ll send an email > Email link to another case study and reference your call in the email
Day 14 – Email – Provide some hard data on the buyer’s problem that they might find useful
Day 20 – Email – Straight forward ask for a meeting
Day 25 – Call > Voicemail > Email asking for a meeting
No one ever said sales is easy, especially when you’re first starting out.
But when you create a flywheel sales system, you make selling 10X simpler by being able to earn referrals, build trust at a distance, refine your process, and upsell current customers.
SPIN Selling: 4 Steps To Predictable Sales Success
Aug 08, 2022
In sales, no two scenarios, and neither two customers are alike. So sales professionals have to cut through the clutter and get to the heart of what a client wants.
The best way to do this is by asking the right questions—questions that help salespeople build a strong rapport with sales prospects.
Following the SPIN sales methodology can be a good step in the direction where you can use sales questions with the most impact, easily overcome objections, and close more sales.
What Is SPIN Selling?
The SPIN sales technique makes it easier for sales reps to close deals. It identifies the core stages of questioning that a salesperson must go through to convert a prospect.
Neil Rackham introduced the sales training methodology in his 1988 book titled SPIN Selling. Based on data collected from 12 years of research and 35,000 sales calls (!), he outlined a framework for developing and timing structured questions sales reps should ask to close a deal.
The SPIN acronym represents four categories: Situation, Problem, Implication, and Need-Payoff.
Here's a breakdown of each category, along with SPIN selling method you can use to learn more about your target customer, build trust, and eventually close the deal.
1) Situation
This stage of the sales process is all about gathering information. You ask situation questions during the opening stage of a sale to better understand the prospect's current situation.
The purpose here is to understand the prospect and their exact situation (hence the name) and whether it aligns with your offering.
Situation Questions:
How do you achieve X?
What process does your organization use for X?
What is your role at the organization?
Do you have a person responsible for X on your team?
What do you currently use for X?
Why did you choose these tools and how often do you use them?
Do you have a solid strategy in place for X?
2) Problem
The problem stage of your sales call involves identifying pains and problems that the prospect experiences. Questions here are asked during the investigation stage to probe the prospect's frustration and pain points.
You want to bring the prospect into an awareness that they have a problem or highlight the problems they need to solve. Once you know the problems and issues, you'll use them later to drive the sale forward.
Problem Questions:
What's the biggest challenge you face with X?
How much time do you spend on X?
How much money are you paying for your tools to do X?
What are the common points of failure for this process?
Are you happy with your current vendor?
Is your current product always reliable?
How many people are currently working on X in your organization?
3) Implication
Implication involves underscoring why the prospect should focus on solving their problems. In addition, these questions highlight the potential impact of the discovered issues and issues that aren't addressed.
Your purpose here is to relate the prospect's frustrations with the previous stage's problems when demonstrating the value of your product or offer.
Implication Questions:
How much money and time did you lose during your last outage?
If it wasn't for (challenge), how much time do you think you would have saved?
What happened the last time X failed?
How does (problem or issue) affect your KPIs?
How do your team members feel about your current tool?
Are you happy with the efficiency of this process?
4) Need-Payoff
This stage is all about leading B2B sales prospects to your desired conclusions on their own instead of you telling them how your product or service can address their pain points.
In the closing phase of the sale, you ask the prospect how important or urgent it is for them to solve the problem or issue and hand and tie the light on the benefit of solving it. You want the prospect to consider how valuable a real solution to their pain points would be.
Need-Payoff Questions:
Do you think your team members would be more productive if they had more time?
How can you simplify X?
What do you think will make a good tool for your organization?
Would your team like a tool that does X, Y, and Z?
If you find out that you can double your productivity by switching products, would you?
What do you think your team needs to succeed?
How productive do you think your organization would become if you gave your team the right tools?
Understanding the 4 Main Stages of SPIN Selling
Rackham and his team also details the four main stages of the SPIN selling method in his book. Let's take a look to get a better understanding of the sales process methodology.
Stage 1: Opening
The opening stage involves introducing yourself to your prospect.
This should be a warm, polite, and gradual process instead of you immediately rushing into a sales pitch about why your product is the best on the market. Stop talking about your features and benefits. Stop being the traditional sales pest.
You don't want to overwhelm or annoy your prospect; focus on establishing rapport and trust.
Stage 2: Investigating
Once you successfully engage your prospect in a conversation, you can start investigating. Focus on the common customer needs. Ask the SPIN selling questions you just learnt.
Your chances of selling your product or offering to a prospect you don't know are slim to none. It's a hard fact. You don't know what your prospect wants, needs, what they are willing to pay, and other critical questions that can help you tailor your sales pitch according to them. So how can you make them see value in your product?
That's why the investigation stage is all about discovery and asking questions that can help you learn more about your prospect. Getting this right will guide you on the remaining steps of the sales funnel.
Stage 3: Demonstrating Capability
At this stage we're accelerating through the buying process, you've established trust with your prospect and know about their needs, preferences, and likes and dislikes. Next, you start demonstrating the main capabilities of your product, where you highlight your offering's best features, advantages, and benefits.
When dealing with end-users, you want to focus on the descriptive elements of your product that make it functional and unique. On the other hand, emphasize your product's advantages and how it's better than what your rivals offer when talking to decision-makers. Decision-makers are more interested in benefits and the overall value provided by a solution.
Stage 4: Obtaining Commitment
In the obtaining commitment stage of SPIN selling, you want to overcome objections and get your prospects to commit to a purchase.
Objections fall into one of two categories: value or capability objections. While value objections stem from the prospect's belief that your product isn't worth their money and won't guarantee a stable ROI, capability objections stem from a premise that your product isn't going to help them solve the biggest problem.
Both objections won't bode well for your deal if you don't eliminate them effectively.
Under the SPIN methodology, the best way to deal with objections is to prevent them from arising in the first place. Then, by asking the right questions, you can get the prospect to see your product's value on their own.
Additional Tips to Succeed at SPIN Selling
According to Neil Rackham, “the best selling isn't at all about your products and what you can offer. It's very much about the customers and their needs. ”
Keeping this in mind in your sales training, here are a few additional tips to help you master the SPIN sales methodology:
A) Get Specific
The best SPIN selling questions aren't too generic or vague. You want to be as specific as you can and avoid beating around the bush. For example:
Bad Sales Question: What would your team members do if they had more time?
Good Sales Question: How do you think your team members would perform if they got six extra hours every week?
Get it?
B) Customize Questions—But Don't Go Overboard
Your SPIN selling questions should be customized for the specific prospect you're having a conversation with.
As mentioned, no two prospects are the same. If you ask everyone the same set of questions, it'll only come off as insincere and monotonous. It's why SPIN Selling emphasizes getting to know your customer before pitching your product or service.
While you want to ask thoughtful questions, asking more questions isn't necessarily better.
The best tactic is to adopt a minimalistic approach, so the entire selling process is efficient and valuable for your prospects. Ask a select few questions at a time—and make sure they count.
C) Listen and Adapt
When questioning prospects, you want their answers to fuel your approach. In addition, you want to use them to learn more about your prospect and improve yourself.
Think about how you can incorporate the information into your next sales call. It's also good to consider whether you're getting any customer feedback that can help you sell more effectively to other people.
D) Demonstrate Expertise and Authority
What makes you an expert in handling your prospects' pain points? How can you ensure the client sees your expertise without deviating from the process?
Figuring out the answer to these questions is critical to establishing your credibility, which, in turn, will help you close deals faster and more effectively. Play to your strengths, but always keep your prospect's requirements a top priority.
How I Design My Ultra Productive Selling Days | Selling Made Simple
Aug 06, 2022
Being productive is a major pain point in sales. I should know—I used to be lazy, procrastinate, and flake out all the time. But today I run a 7-figure sales training company, produce TONS of quality content, and still have time for coaching calls, hobbies, and a family life.
How? I’m tyrannical about how I plan and execute my days. Here’s how I do it.
1. “Does it Make the Boat Go Faster”
Only do “what makes the boat go faster.”
There was a rowing team in Great Britain that had a big audacious goal—they wanted to win the Olympics in two years. And to achieve that goal, they did something a bit unorthodox. They relentlessly asked themselves, “Does this make the boat go faster?”
It wasn’t just equipment they scrutinized. Though they tore that apart too. No, it was training, strategy, mentality, sleep schedules, nutrition, motivation. Everything that came into play was examined and evaluated. And if it didn’t make the boat go faster, guess what? They got rid of it.
At the end of two years, they had a completely redesigned team… and a gold medal.
If you want to be ultra productive and close more deals, you need to focus on what makes the boat go faster. Prospecting leads to sales. Gossipy emails don’t. Building your network makes the boat go faster. Facebook posts don’t.
Get relentless with it. Because if it doesn’t make the boat go faster, you shouldn’t be doing it.
2. Time Block
Organization is the heart of productivity. And when it comes to how you complete your mission-critical tasks, it should be no different. That’s where time blocking comes in.
Rather than getting to the real impactful tasks whenever you can, start scheduling them directly into your calendar.
But be deliberate here. Choose times and windows that you KNOW are realistic and that you can stick to. Because to maximize your productivity, you need to stick to those timelines like your life depended on it.
No handling other little tasks while you work on a big one. No spending an extra half an hour of unscheduled time on it. No fudging the numbers.
Work on the SINGLE task from start time to finish time. No more, no less.
Time blocking requires discipline. A hell of a lot of it. But when you get the system down, you’ll find yourself finishing big tasks faster and fitting more of them into your day.
3. Capture Tasks
We’ve all found ourselves realizing something important needs to be done only to forget about it completely by the end of the day. And by the time you realize it, it’s way too late to do anything about it.
That’s why it’s so important to have a task-capturing system.
Now we at the Selling Made Simple Academy actually have a whole system dedicated to this. It’s called the Bucket Productivity Framework. And if you’re interested in learning more about it, head over to the link in the notes.
But for now, here’s a quick overview.
You essentially want to capture tasks that come up throughout the day on a pad of paper you keep with you at all times.
Then once your day is almost through, take a minute or two to go through your list and define the next steps for each task. This will make it 20X easier to do later.
After that, you’re going to organize each task into one of four buckets: Urgent & Important, Not Urgent & Important, Urgent & Not Important, and Not Urgent & Not Important.
The Urgent & Important tasks you’ll handle yourself first thing tomorrow. The Not Urgent & Important ones can wait.
But for the Urgent & Not Important, you should delegate to someone else. And for the final bucket, Not Urgent & Not Important, just don’t do them. They don’t matter!
Again, there’s a lot more to be said about this system. So if you want to learn more, be sure to click over to the full explainer in the show notes.
4. Use the Power of “NO”
So much of your productivity losses are tied up in performing meaningless tasks you get assigned by others. A pointless meeting you agreed to attend, a 20-minute coffee break with a colleague when you should be on the phones, an hour-long video call when a simple email would do.
There’s so much time wasted on unnecessary engagements, especially when the information you need from it can be covered a simpler, faster way. Worst of all, a lot of the time you don’t even enjoy these engagements! So to recap, you’re:
Barely getting anything out of it.
Wasting time you could be spending on driving sales.
Hating being there anyway.
Rather than put yourself through that, get more comfortable saying no. “No” might seem like it’s costing you something when you say it. But the opportunity cost of saying “yes” to something that doesn’t move the boat forward is far higher.
5. Sprint AND Marathon
And finally there’s understanding the concept of the sprint AND the marathon.
On the sprint side of things, you should always be moving relentlessly towards completing something. Sprint to finish this video. Sprint to create the best YouTube channel for B2B sales reps. Sprint to retire early.
Whatever it is you’re doing with your life, always have a goal. And always look for ways to achieve it faster.
On the other side of things, you need to understand your limits. That’s where the marathon comes in. If you burn the candle at both ends for too long, it’s going to lead to burnout, exhaustion, and other life priorities that don’t get the attention they need.
The solution here is what’s called The 20 Mile March. It’s a concept developed in the book Great by Choice by Jim Collins. It describes how enterprises that last the longest tend to self-impose a rigorous performance mark that they hit with amazing consistency.
In the book, Collins equates it to hiking across the United States by marching 20 miles a day, every day. No more, no less. You don’t go further on great days. And you don’t go less on terrible ones. And at the end, the 20 mile marcher will ALWAYS beat out the opportunist that does the opposite.
The march imposes order amidst disorder, discipline amidst chaos, and consistency amidst uncertainty.
So chase down your goals relentlessly. But keep things to a reasonable limit. And remember that consistency always drives the best results.
Replay: How Buying Emotions Are Made And How To Create Them In Others
Aug 05, 2022
In this episode of The Salesman Podcast, Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett talks about how buyer’s emotions and feelings are formed in the brain, regardless if it’s positive such as happiness, or negative, such as remorse. We cover some sales training nonsense on the topic of influence and Lisa debunks a few more sales myths in this episode.
You'll learn:
Sponsored by:
Free SalesCode assessment
Learn your strengths and weaknesses in an instant. Taken by over 10,000+ of your competitors. Don't get left behind.
Take the free assessment
Featured on this episode:
Host - Will Barron
Founder of Salesman.org
Guest - Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett
Researcher of Psychiatry & Psychology
Can we go up on today's episode of the Salesman Podcast?
Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:
Your brain makes emotions, emotions don't happen to you. They are made by your brain for particular situations that you're in. Your brain is always regulating your body. And your body is always sending information back to your brain. And you feel that information from the tug of your lungs, expanding, the rush of your blood through your veins, the feeding of your heart.
Will Barron:
Hello, my name is Will Barron and I'm the host of the Salesman Podcast. The world's most downloaded B2B sales show. On today's episode, amazing episode, we have Dr. Lisa, she's the author of How Emotions Are Made. And that's exactly what we're diving into in today's show. We're diving into how the buyer emotions are made in their brain, whether it's happiness, whether it's buys malls, whatever it is. We also dive into how to influence over people's emotions and we call that some of the nonsense that sales trainers have been talking about influencing other people and their emotions over the decades. Lisa dives into that and the book's a whole tonne of it. Everything that we talk about, and this episode is available at the show notes at salesman.org. And with that said, let's jump right into it.
Can Humans Control Their Emotions? · [01:52]
Will Barron:
And we're going to talk some science, we're going to talk emotions, and we're going to hopefully be able to discuss where, well I'm going to call buying emotions come from. So that might be happiness. If you buy the right product, it could be the fear of missing out, if there's an offer a deal in place, it could be unfortunately regrets or buyer's remorse. I want to dive into where all these come from, then hopefully how we can help buyers have better buying experiences moving forward. So before the obvious question of where the heck do buying emotions come from? I want to tee things up with asking you, are we in control of our emotions? Because sometimes it seems like I can choose to be happy. I can choose to change my state of mind, but sometimes emotions come in crushing it and hits us like a car crash, I guess, a car wreck. So are we in control of the emotions that we feel?
“Your brain makes emotions, emotions don't happen to you. They are made by your brain for particular situations that you're in. Your brain is automatically constructing emotions out of a set of ingredients. And you have control over seeding your brain with those ingredients to make emotions more automatic in an effortless way, but control in the moment as in stopping feeling one thing and in order to cultivate a different feeling is extremely hard I would say.” – Dr. Lisa Feldman · [02:17]
Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:
Well, that's a really hard question actually. That could be answered in many different ways. I guess the answer would be, yes, you are more in control than maybe you think you are, but that control looks very different than what you think it does. So your brain makes emotions, emotions don't happen to you. They are made by your brain for particular situations that you're in, your brain is automatically constructing emotions out of a set of ingredients. And you have control overseeding your brain with those ingredients to make emotions more automatically in an effortless way, but control in the moment as in stopping feeling one thing and in order to cultivate a different feeling is extremely hard I would say. If you're very physically worked up, you can change the meaning of that worked up feeling and therefore change the emotion, but calming your body down is actually extremely hard to do for anybody.
Do We All Have The Capacity to Feel The Same Emotions? · [04:10]
Will Barron:
Sure, you've touched on something here that I wanted to come to the end of the show or later on the show, but we'll address it now. These feelings that we feel, does everyone feel the same feeling? And then from societal, I guess, norms put a label on it, of I feel butterflies. And so I feel nervous, excited versus other people might feel butterflies and have a different association with that feeling so they feel a different emotion. What I'm asking is all emotions ubiquitous, and we all feel the same. They can be categorised, or do we add a layer on top of emotions that changes what they actually feel towards personally?
“So your brain is always regulating your body and your body is always sending information back to your brain. And you feel that information from the tug of your lungs expanding, the rush of your blood through your veins, the beating of your heart.” – Dr. Lisa Feldman · [04:21]
Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:
So your brain is always regulating your body and your body is always sending information back to your brain. And you feel that information from the tug of your lungs expanding, the rush of your blood through your veins, the beating of your heart. You experience those sensations. As simple feelings of affect, feeling worked up, feeling calm, feeling pleasant, feeling unpleasant, those aren't emotions, they're simple feelings of mood or what scientists call affect. They're always with you every waking moment of your life. Your brain's job in part is to link the sensations from your body and these affective feelings to the words going on around you in the world in order to give them meaning so that your brain knows what to do next. And so it's more than just labelling. What your brain is always doing is categorising sensations to give them meaning a way to think about it as like this, your brain is trapped in a dark silent box called your skull.
Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:
It's receiving sense data from the world like changes in light, changes in sound, pressure, changes in chemicals. It doesn't know what the causes are of these changes. It only receives the outcomes of those causes, so when there's a flash of light or a loud bang, say a loud bang, what is it? Is it someone slamming a door? Is it a car backfiring? Is it thunder? Is it a gunshot? Depending on what caused that bang your brain would do different things to keep you alive and well. But your brain doesn't know what caused the sound. It only know it's receiving the outcome of some change, but it doesn't know what the change is. Similarly, when your brain receives sense data from your body and there's a tug in your chest, is it hum, anxiety? Is it heartburn from having eaten too much? Is it the beginnings of a heart attack?
“This is what philosophers call a reverse inference problem. You get the answers, but you don't know the question. You have to figure out what caused these changes. And so that's what your brain is always doing. It's asking itself. “The last time I was in a situation like this, where I had these internal sensations and this feeling, what caused it? What did I do about it?” – Dr. Lisa Feldman · [06:50]
Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:
What is it? Your brain doesn't know what it is. It's only receiving the outcome of some cause. This is what philosophers call a reverse inference problem. You get the answers, but you don't know the question. You have to figure out what caused these changes. And so that's what your brain is always doing. It's asking itself. “The last time I was in a situation like this, where I had these internal sensations and this feeling, what caused it? What did I do about it?” It's asking what is similar to the present moment in my past and things which are similar in some way are a category.
“Happiness for you is not the same thing each time you feel it or regret each time you feel it is not the same thing because your brain is constructing each moment on the fly in a particular situation. So, in some situations, when you're happy, you smile, in some situations when you're happy you cry, in some situations when you're happy you might you pound fists with someone. You do different things, your body does different things.” – Dr. Lisa Feldman · [07:43]
Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:
So your brain is basically forming categories to guide your action and create your extended emotional experience out of the sense data. So the question you're asking me, does everyone in the world feel the same thing? The answer is no, but happiness for you is not the same thing each time you feel it or regret each time you feel it is not the same thing because your brain is constructing each moment on the fly in a particular situation. So in some situations, when you're happy, you smile, in some situations when you're happy you cry, in some situations when you're happy you might you pound fists with someone, you do different things, your body does different things. You feel different things. When you're happy, depending on the situation that you're in. So it's not the same, even for you from moment to moment.
The Brain’s Unconscious Reactions to Different Types of Emotions · [08:38]
Will Barron:
This is fascinating because we've never ponded on the idea before. And just you bringing that back to me adds different frames of references of what emotions are, which is amazing. And how much of this then is conscious versus subconscious or unconscious in this?
“Everything that you experience right now, your brain is able to use in the future to help construct another experience. So in a sense, we're always cultivating our past as a way of controlling our future.” – Dr. Lisa Feldman · [09:18]
Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:
Mostly unconscious. So your brain is all of this meaning-making is occurring under the hood really automatically. In fact, it takes me much longer to describe it to you than it actually takes for it to occur. So when you asked me before, how controllable are your emotions? Well, the meaning making part is easier to control if you think about control over the long-term, meaning everything that you experience right now, your brain is able to use in the future to help construct another experience. So in a sense, we're always cultivating our past as a way of controlling our future. So the best way to control your emotions is to give your brain a good, flexible set of options that it can use to construct your emotions with. And then your brain will be very flexible in how it does this on the fly with very little effort from you.
Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:
So can you think of it a little bit like exercising, you invest a lot of energy and then you replenish that energy because it's a really good investment in having a healthy brain in the future. And similarly, you can construct new experiences for yourself, cultivate new situations, curate new feelings. And that is effortful. But what it does is it's an investment in having a flexible brain that will control your emotions in a way that's more tailored to the situation.
Chemical and Neural Activities in The Brain and How They Affect How We React to Emotions · [10:39]
Will Barron:
What is or I'll put this a different way. How much of this is brain activity and feedback from the body versus a chemical a cascade in the brain where once it starts literal chemical reactions are happening. And so it's difficult to put a stop to it in that moment.
“There's a whole system in your brain of neurons. Their only job is to control other neurons. That's what we call attention. You experience attention from a subjective perspective. “Am I looking at this thing? Am I concentrating on this thing?” But attention from a neurons perspective is anything which makes it fire more or less.” – Dr. Lisa Feldman · [11:30]
Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:
Well, here's the thing, all chemical, all neural activity in the brain is both chemical and electrical. Neurons communicate by chemicals. I mean, if you didn't have those chemicals, the neurons could not possibly talk to each other. There's a whole system in your brain of neurons. Their only job is to control other neurons. That's what we call attention. You experience attention from a subjective perspective. “Am I looking at this thing? Am I concentrating on this thing?” But attention from a neurons perspective is anything which makes it fire more or less. So you put a stop to the firing of some neurons by other neurons basically. And it's always possible to turn the dial up or turn the dial down on an assembly of neurons, it's just that your body takes longer to adjust to the neural signals.
“You have these moments where you know nothing is wrong, but you're still worked up anyways. And you really would really, really like that worked up feeling to go away. But it won't it's because your body is just slower to listen to those signals from your brain.” – Dr. Lisa Feldman · [12:00]
Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:
So it can feel like, you have these moments where you know nothing is wrong, but you're still worked up anyways. And you really would really, really like that worked up feeling to go away. But it won't it's because your body is just slower to listen to those signals from your brain.
How Salespeople Can Make Their Customers Happier By Helping Regulate Their Nevours Systems · [12:40]
Will Barron:
Amazing. Okay. So that's the baseline there. How do we, and we can very quickly move into the world of manipulation I'm not interested in that. I'm more interested in creating a better buying experiences. And I'm sure some of this works better in person than it does over a Skype call or over a phone call. But is there anything we can do as salespeople, as business leaders to make our customers happier, where we engage with them over the perhaps obvious stuff like, perhaps I'm assuming this is the case, but smiling seems to be somewhat contagious. And that hopefully affects the emotions of the people that are engaged with. Is there anything like that, that we can do to I guess, get people to mirror our own emotions?
“When people smile for the purpose of trying to get me to smile, really what I want to do is give them the finger. Honestly, I don't like being manipulated that way. And I don't think people like being manipulated actually.” – Dr. Lisa Feldman · [13:20]
Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:
Yeah. So I have to tell you that the more I learn about this, the more I think that smiling is… One day I'm going to write a book called the tyranny of happiness, I think. When people smile for the purpose of trying to get me to smile, really what I want to do is give them the finger. Honestly, I don't like being manipulated that way. And I don't think people like being manipulated actually. So here's what I would say.
“The best thing for a human nervous system is another human. The worst thing for a human nervous system is also another human. So if you want to make your customers more comfortable and able to engage in the kind of thoughtful weighing of pros and cons, so that they'll be satisfied with a purchase that they make, your job is to help regulate their nervous systems.” – Dr. Lisa Feldman · [13:45]
Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:
We are social animals. We regulate each other's nervous systems, in a way you could think about the best thing for a human nervous system is another human. The worst thing for a human nervous system is also another human. So if you want to make your customers more comfortable and able to engage in the kind of thoughtful weighing of pros and cons, so that they'll be satisfied with a purchase that they make, your job is to help regulate their nervous systems.
“The way I describe this is body budgeting. Your brain is running a budget for your body. It's not budgeting money, it's budgeting salt and glucose and water and oxygen, and all the things your body needs to run.” – Dr. Lisa Feldman · [14:17]
Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:
The way I describe this is body budgeting. Your brain is running a budget for your body. It's not budgeting money, it's budgeting salt and glucose and water and oxygen, and all the things your body needs to run. And we make deposits into that body budget by sleeping and eating, and we make withdrawals.
“When you're giving a client a lot of information and they have to process that information and make a decision, that is expensive, metabolically speaking, and you can make that process more expensive or less expensive for them, depending on how responsive you are to them.” – Dr. Lisa Feldman · [14:47]
Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:
The two biggest most expensive things your brain can do is move your body like when you're walking or getting out of bed in the morning or exercising and learning. So when you're giving a client a lot information and they have to process that information and make a decision, that is expensive, metabolically speaking, and you can make that process more expensive or less expensive for them, depending on how responsive you are to them. We can make metaphorical deposits and withdrawals in other people's body budgets. So rather than smiling, I would suggest, first of all, breathing at a good, slow pace because we mirror each other's breathing patterns.
“The one way to calm your body down is to breathe in a very paced way. And actually, Navy SEALs use this in order to calm themselves down.” – Dr. Lisa Feldman · [16:30]
Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:
So if you and I were actually in a room together and we liked each other and we trusted each other, our physiological signals would would synchronise. If you're really worked up, I would become really worked up, if you're really calm and you're breathing at a really good pace, then I would become calmer and pretty that a good pace. We're not aware of doing these things, but it's very, very possible to influence people that way. So, for example, when I was training to be a therapist, a million years ago in another life one of the things I learned to do was breathe at a pace of about six to eight seconds, because the one way to calm your body down is to breathe in a very paced way.
“If you want to have a successful selling episode, whatever that means to you, you probably want to do it in a way that leaves your client or customer feeling not happy but comfortable, comfortable, which means that you reflect back what they say, you pace your own breathing. So they pace their breathing, and you basically make it a less metabolically taxing event.” – Dr. Lisa Feldman · [16:48]
Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:
And actually Navy SEALs use this in order to calm themselves down. It's really the only way that we know of that you can lower your heart rate, bring your body back down into a more comfortable range. So what I would suggest is if you want to have a successful selling episode, whatever that means to you, you probably want to do it in a way that leaves the person, leaves your client or customer feeling not happy but comfortable, comfortable, which means that you reflect back what they say, you pace your own breathing. So they pace their breathing, and you basically make it a less metabolically taxing event.
Will Barron:
So you'll have experiences, I'm sure, but you may not be consciously aware of all the training that's gone in the past with sales training. So perhaps 10 years ago, we would talk not way, I wasn't involved in this. This is one of the reason I started the podcast, how people like yourself on to actually unwrap the science behind some of this. But last sales training was about mirroring the person that you're engaging with and all these weird tricks and hacks and kind of things. Then he went to more of a discussion. I want to get your thoughts on this in a second on things like discussing newer neurons, but it would be a non-scientist talking about mirror neurons, trying to use anecdotes and metaphors to describe some of that. They don't know what they're talking about.
Lisa’s Shares Her Thoughts on the Effectiveness of Mirroring Other People’s Body Language · [18:20]
Will Barron:
So this is why this is really interesting to me to talk about the actual science of why perhaps some of this may work, may not work. What are your thoughts on the likes of the African seal, the effectiveness of mirroring body language, things like this, and are mirror neurons relevant to any of this whatsoever?
Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:
Mirror neurons don't exist. There's nothing in your brain called a mirror neuron. There are neurons in your brain that do what mirror neurons are supposed to do, but they are in many, many, many parts of your brain. There's nothing special. So what I'm trying to say is the function is there, but there are no special neurons that perform this function. Okay? Your brain has the capacity to change the firing of its own neurons. If I ask you to imagine a McIntosh apple of the sort that you eat, so in your mind's eye, can you imagine a red apple that you would eat? And can you imagine picking that apple up, fighting into the apple, hearing the crunch of the apple, maybe tasting maybe it's some tart with a little sweetness. Can you imagine that in your mind's eye?
Will Barron:
I can, and it's probably happening what you're trying to be capping of. I'm slightly salivating as you describe it.
Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:
Yeah. Why do you think you're salivating? Because your brain has changed the firing of your neurons. Your brain is changing. If we had your head in a brain scanner, we would see that portions of the visual system in your brain would be very active even though there actually is no apple. Just by merely saying the word apple, this conjures an image in your head, your brain upon hearing me talk about the crunch and the taste, is actually changing the firing of neurons without the apple there to actually make you salivate, to prepare, to digest the apple when you eat it. Your brain is basically what we would call simulating. This is what scientists called simulating. It's a fancy word for a bunch of things we do every day, but this is actually how it's exactly the same process that your brain undergoes when it's making sense of information from body in the world.
“So when you see someone smile or you see the raise of an eyebrow, or you see someone move, what your brain is doing is simulating to prepare to deal with that person's action.” – Dr. Lisa Feldman · [20:49]
Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:
So when you see someone smile or you see the raise of an eyebrow, or you see someone move, what your brain is doing is simulating to prepare to deal with that person's action. That's what so-called motor neurons do. But every neuron in your brain, you can think of acting in that way. It's not something specific to the neurons that are in that little spot. And I guess the thing to say is this, that it is true that if you stick two people in a room who don't know each other, but through the course of conversation, they trust each other, they like each other.
“That kind of mirroring if you actually deliberately try to do it, people notice and they think it's weird.” – Lisa Feldman · [22:02]
Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:
It's true that they will spontaneously mirror each other's actions. Let's say, well, you put your hand up to your face. I might put my hand up to flick my hair and then let's say, I flicked my hair, I flick my hair and I look to the right. You might also slightly turn your body to the right. I mean, people don't mirror in an exact way, but there is probabilistically speaking some… But that kind of mirroring if you actually deliberately try to do it, people notice and they think it's weird.
Will Barron:
Of course, it's super weird, isn't it?
“When you lose someone that you love, when that person leaves you, you break up or they die, you feel like you've lost a part of yourself because you have, you've lost someone who was tending to your body budget, and now you have to do it on your own.” – Dr. Lisa Feldman · [23:03]
Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:
Of course it's really weird. But however, I can assure you that when you're trying to calm someone down and help them, we'll put it this way. I worked out with a coach for 15 years. Monday, Wednesday, Friday morning. Okay. I am much more efficient in my workout when he's there, than when he isn't there. It's not just because he's telling me what to do. I'm actually stronger when he's there and I can do more when he's there. And it's because he's providing body budgeting support for me in a way that I'm not consciously tracking. When you lose someone that you love, when that person leaves you, you break up or they die. You feel like you've lost a part of yourself because you have, you've lost someone who was tending to your body budget, and now you have to do it on your own.
Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:
And it feels painful because it is, it's harder. The kind of mirroring that you want to do with someone you don't know very well would be more like staying calm, modulating your voice, modulate your breathing. And that will make it easier for them to do the same if they get worked up and you follow them, that just leads to a cycle of everybody getting worked up as opposed to taking a step back and taking a deep breath.
“If you keep your nervous system calm, you're basically providing support for the other person's nervous system.” – Dr. Lisa Feldman · [24:40]
Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:
With little kids like with babies, actually, even with my daughter, sometimes I don't depend on mirroring. I get her to come to me. I give her a hug and I actually breathe slowly. And I get her to pace my breathing, which when she was a baby, all I needed to do was put her on my chest and breathe. And she would calm down just by my breathing. Now that she's 22, I can just say to her, “Do you want to hug?” And then we stand there and we breathe together for a minute. And then she feels she's calmer. And then you can't obviously you can't do that with a customer. But what you can do is if you keep your nervous system calm, you're basically providing support for the other person's nervous system.
How to Leverage The Power of Storytelling to Influence Your Customer’s Emotions · [24:58]
Will Barron:
Okay. The weird manipulative used car sales techniques of the past are a no go which is approved, that message is approved on this podcast. Is there novel way to perhaps influence a person's emotional state, which you just did to me. Should we be using perhaps stories and storytelling to do that?
“Stories, convince people. So what you're trying to do is get someone to be immersed in a narrative that you've created, and that immersion must involve simulation.” – Dr. Lisa Feldman · [25:28]
Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:
Yes. Storytelling that allows simulation. That allows the person to… I mean, if you notice in both books, I've written, I use stories. I could throw data up on a screen, but that's not going to convince anybody except maybe another scientist. And even then I would say stories, convince people. So what you're trying to do is get someone to be immersed in a narrative that you've created, and that immersion must involve simulation. A person won't feel part of the story unless they're simulating it in the way that I just showed you with the apple.
Will Barron:
Because I guess we've also then got to be careful not to be telling stories where we're getting someone to simulate. For example, a lot of sales training is based around this idea of making the buyer feel loads of pain, and then giving them a solution. Now, my experience, having experimented with all kinds of different sales techniques training and all this is, if you make someone feel really bad, they feel really bad. And then you've got to try and shift their emotions from one place to another. It's far easier to go into a conversation, being upbeat perhaps storytell and use positive case studies, as opposed to, again, this might be considered more manipulative of this is the worst thing that's going to happen. This and this as this and this. And I find that that leads to then buyer's remorse as opposed to a happy customer on the other end of it.
Things Salespeople Should Avoid Doing to Prevent Customers From Getting Into a Negative Emotional States · [26:44]
Will Barron:
So is there anything that we've definitely spoken about so far least there's anything that we should avoid doing to stop people getting into a bad emotional state, as opposed to what we've talked about so far is trying to get people into a good one.
Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:
Yeah, well, I think there were a couple of things, well that come to mind and I'm going to talk to you as a scientist, but I'm also going to talk to you as a consumer. I'm a kind of person who has relationships with the people that I buy things from. And I'm very loyal actually. So I will always go back to the same shop, even if something's a little more expensive there. Not like exceedingly expensive more, but just even if it's a little more, I'll go back to that place because I know that person is going to help me in the long run. If I trust that person, I'm much more likely to buy from that person, I'm much more likely to take a risk that I normally wouldn't take with a purchase and so on. I think you have to understand what your goal is, what your goal is as a salesperson. Is your goal to make a sale in that moment?
Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:
Is that the goal or is the goal to build a relationship with a customer where you will make sales over time to that person? I'm sure sometimes it's one and sometimes it's the other, but you have to think about what is your goal? Is it a short-term goal or a long-term goal? That's the first thing that will help you. And the second thing is, remember that your brain, the brain of a person, your brain, my brain everybody's brain is guessing what negative feelings mean. Those negative feelings aren't emotions. When your body budget is flush, you feel good, when your body budget is taxed, you're running a deficit because maybe you're thinking really hard or you're physically taxed in some way. What is stress? Stress is just your brain preparing for a big metabolic outlay. That's it? Cortisol is not a stress hormone.
“Your brain doesn't know what the negative feeling is about. It has to guess. That customer can guess it's you. So you have to be really careful when you create a negative feeling in someone because they might attribute the cause to you as opposed to the scenario that you created.” – Dr. Lisa Feldman · [29:02]
Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:
It's a hormone that gets glucose into your bloodstream because your brain is predicting. You have a big metabolic outlay that can mean dragging your ass out of bed in the morning. That can mean going to the gym, or it can mean just learning something new and having to reason your way through a complicated purchase. Your brain doesn't know what the negative feeling is about. It has to guess. That customer can guess it's you. So you have to be really careful when you create a negative feeling in someone because they might attribute the cause to you as opposed to the scenario that you created. But let's say you want someone to simulate negative consequences in order to avoid them. I would do that by inviting them to do it with you to say, if you really think that this is an important thing to, you say, “Can we do a thought experiment?”
“And one of the reasons why we have so much trouble staying in the present is that our brains are very, very good at mental time travel.” – Dr. Lisa Feldman · [30:29]
Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:
I want us to imagine this kind of a future let's imagine these things happen. So you're basically inviting them to take a little imaginary journey with you. This is something that human brains do exceedingly well, we can simulate into the future, simulate into the past. That's called memory. So imagination memory are both based in exactly the same computation, which is this simulation, ability to conjure experience independent of our immediate circumstances. And one of the reasons why we have so much trouble staying in the present is that our brains are very, very good at mental time travel.
“You want to create the context for the person to come to that realisation themselves, that yours is the best solution. If you try to just tell them that, they might believe you, but they might not. The thing is if they come to it themselves, they will be more satisfied with the purchase afterwards.” – Dr. Lisa Feldman · [31:00]
Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:
So you can invite your customer to do mental time travel with you, and you can invite them, if you present, let's just say for myself, if somebody presented their product to me as the only solution to a problematic outcome, I probably wouldn't believe them because there's always more than one. You want to create the context for the person to come to that realisation themselves, that yours is the best solution. If you try to just tell them that, they might believe you, but they might not. The thing is if they come to it themselves, they will be more satisfied with the purchase afterwards.
Why Consuming Glucose Tablets Before a Meeting Cannot Change The Outcomes of a Negotiation · [31:19]
Will Barron:
Perfect. Right. I've got two slightly more ridiculous questions that I'm intrigued to know the answers of Lisa. And then we'll wrap up the show with these number one, it seems like this could be actually studied. I doubt it's ever been studied. But with this idea of the metabolic deficit and the brain requiring so much energy to process thoughts and say, we're going into a big negotiations, lots of learning and guessing and putting together numbers perhaps. Again, this is not practical, but I think it's interesting to ponder on, perhaps. Could you give someone a glucose tablet or something like that before in negotiation? And would that change the outcome of a negotiation if we did it like 200, 500 times?
Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:
Well, people have done those experiments and the answer is no. And the reason why is that circulating glucose in your blood, we don't know exactly what that does to the glucose levels in your brain. And that's actually really what's important. What's important is how your brain is metabolising as much as what your body is doing. So I would say if you want to be effective, the best thing that you can do, let's say you want to be effective tomorrow. Like today, you and I, I knew we were having this conversation today, and I don't really know that much about sales from a technical standpoint. I know about sales as a consumer. So I need to be sharp for this conversation. So the best thing that I could do is get a good night's sleep last night, just what I did.
The Power of Proper Sleep, Hydration, Healthy Eating Habits, and Exercise In Preparing For Negotiation Meetings · [33:18]
Will Barron:
Just about to ask you, perhaps a better way, a best that would be if someone had a power nap before a meeting, or we did a 9:00 AM meetings versus 10:00 PM meetings after some pizza margaritas, which would be probably more effective. So that's common sense right. Although I guess common sense, isn't always used as commonly as what it should be.
“If you want to be in control, as in control, as your nervous system will possibly allow, you have to make sure your body budget is solvent. And if you're running a deficit and you say, drink coffee, what you're doing is borrowing energy from tomorrow that you will spend today. And at some point, we all need to do that at times.” – Dr. Lisa Feldman · [33:44]
Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:
True, but I would say, get enough sleep, be well-hydrated. Again, it sounds really crazy, but when people ask me, “What can I do to control my emotions, what's the best thing that I can do.” I'm like, “Get enough sleep, keep yourself hydrated, eat healthily and exercise.” I know I sound like a mother and I'm a mother. But I'm speaking to you as a neuroscientist. If you want to be in control, as in control, as your nervous system will possibly allow, you have to make sure your body budget is solvent. And if you're running a deficit and you say, drink coffee, what are you doing when you drink coffee? And I say this as a committed coffee lover and tea lover. I actually don't drink coffee anymore, but tea, I still drink.
Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:
But I love caffeine as much as the next person, but when you drink caffeine as you might be doing right now, well, as you pick up that cup. What you're doing is borrowing energy from tomorrow that you will spend today. And at some point, we all need to do that at times. But at some point, you, the deficit will catch up with you and you will feel really unpleasant to the point of feeling distressed and maybe even getting sick. So the point is just having a glucose tablet is not really going to help you, but being hydrated, getting enough sleep, eating healthfully, those things actually will in the long run on average, be better for you.
Caffeine Consumption and How It’s Affecting Your Brain and Body Performance · [34:57]
Will Barron:
Love it. It's funny you mentioned this. I actually did a podcast about caffeine consumption a few months ago, because it's almost a stereotype that business people, leaders, salespeople drink a lot of caffeine to try and stay on their game and stay focused. And so we did a whole show on the science of it, and how is blocking different things. And does what you describe. And I guess in a layman's term of is Robin tomorrow for today. So I've [inaudible 00:35:21] on caffeine in literary months now, and makes that initial kind of a weak period of headaches after the fact of giving it up, which was alarming to me, that it physically had an effect on my brain.
Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:
Yeah, do you know why you have those headaches? You had those headaches when your brain is controlling your body. It's controlling your body by prediction, not by reactions. So when I talked to you about the apple and you start to salivate it's because your brain was preparing you, it was predicting there would be an apple, and it was preparing you to digest it. When you drink water and what your thirst is quenched by water, you take a drink and you drink a glass of water. You have no more thirst. Actually it takes 20 minutes for the osmolarity of your blood to change for water, to get to your brain. So for 20 minutes, you're not thirsty, but yet the information hasn't made it to your brain yet that you're hydrated. How come you stopped feeling thirsty? It's because your brain predicted the consequences of drinking water, because it's had gazillions of opportunities to learn that.
Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:
And similarly your brain is really always, always predicting. So if you have coffee every morning at the same time, your brain knows it's can predict, because you've had this coffee every day at the same time. Coffee has chemicals in it that will constrict the blood vessels in your brain, actually everywhere. So your brain in anticipation, dilates the blood vessels just before you're about to drink the coffee. But if you don't have the coffee to keep the blood vessels stable, they stay dilated and you have a headache.
How Emotions are Made, Both In People and in Animals · [37:40]
Will Barron:
Love it. I love it. The show is now powered by colour malty. Not quite as interesting or as nice. I quite like the routine of making a nice cup of coffee in the morning. That ritual is important to me. But I'm conscious of time at least, I've got one final question for you. It's on topic of emotions, but it's completely off topic with sales. It's a selfish question. We've just caught a golden retriever puppy. Now he looks like he's happy when he hangs out with me. What I want to ask you though, is, am I projecting an emotion that perhaps a dog does feel? Does it feel onto it? Because I see his tail wagging as is his face almost jumps up at the sides.
Will Barron:
And I know that there is kind of a science that shows that dogs, animals that have eyebrows that move in ways that humans can recognise. I've done better. We've been socialisation for humans as we kind of I was also a domesticated wolves over the years. So my question is Lisa, when my puppy comes over and when he's not biting me at all moments, when he's just chilling, is he happy? Or am I projecting these kind of feelings or thoughts that humans have onto this animal? That's perhaps it doesn't have a consciousness.
Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:
Yeah. I talk about this in my book, How Emotions Are Made and it's, I think a widely misunderstood chapter. So here's the thing. You don't recognise anything in anybody. Your brain is guessing. When I raise my eyebrows or I widen my eyes or I frown, or I scowl, your brain is guessing what that means. You're not recognising emotions in me. So 30% of the time when people are angry they scowl, which means 70% of the time when they're angry, they're doing something else with their face. They might be concentrating. You might've just told them about Joe, they might have gasp. There are all kinds of reasons why people scowl. So when you're angry, you scowl 30% of the time. But sometimes when you're angry, you cry, sometimes you frown, sometimes you smile. You might even laugh when you're angry.
Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:
And then you also scowled at other times. So your brain is guessing. It's guessing what a movement means in a particular situation. And then it's checking on its guesses to make sure that you're right. So your brain is predicting, “What I'm going to do next?” And if you predicted well, then you probably means you guessed well. Same thing with your dog. Same thing with your dog. But I will say about the dog though, is that the dog's brain is not the same as a human brain. The dog has these simple feelings of affect. The dog can feel calm. It can feel worked up. The dog can feel pleasant. It can feel unpleasant. I have a puppy too. I got it. I mean, one of the first things we did, like everybody else that we know of actually during COVID was we got a puppy.
Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:
We thought we were being so clever. Everyone else thought they were being clever, too clever and unique. And we were very similar to everybody else. So we got this puppy and this puppy is she's very affectionate. Does she love me? She's attached to me because I regulate her body budget and she regulates mine. So she will come and lay on my feet. She likes to be close to me. I also know she is attached to me because I feed her. I feed her and she feels, and I make her comfortable. I pet her. So I am the source of body budgeting for her. And she is the source of body budgeting for me. That's also true for your puppy. We experience that with each other as love. But the difference is that I have a concept for love and you have concept for love and all the humans in your life have a concept for love so they can feel love because they can take those simple feelings and transform them into something more. Your dog's brain can't do that.
Will Barron:
You're sure because that's really disappointing, Lisa. It's depressing me.
“Does happiness exist in a dog is an unanswerable question. The question is, do you experience your dog being happy? And the answer is yes. And if you ask the question, does your dog experience happiness the way you experience happiness, the answer is no.” – Lisa Feldman · [41:52]
Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:
No, no, it's not disappointing. The point is that if you make emotions, then the question of does X have an emotion? Let me say it differently. Does happiness exist in a dog is an unanswerable question. The question is, do you experience your dog is happy? And the answer is yes. And if you ask the question, does your dog experience happiness the way you experience happiness, the answer is no.
Will Barron:
Because he's a dog.
Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:
Yeah, because he's a dog. But he's attached to you. He can feel pleasant in your company, he can feel unpleasant, he can feel worked up, he can feel calm. And his brain is trying to predict what you're going to do. And mainly his whole job in life is to right, arrange things so that you'll feed him or maybe take him on a walk.
Will Barron:
Love it, love it. I thought that was a slightly off topic question, but you're right. Probably 80% of the audience has recently got a puppy. So maybe it's more relevant than what I thought it would be.
“When you are interacting with a customer, you are not reading that person's emotions, you are guessing, your brain is guessing. And it's probably a good idea to be humble about the quality of your guesses. Even someone who feels like they are excellent at reading people, their brain is just guessing and you can be wrong.” – Dr. Lisa Feldman · [42:50]
Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:
Well, here's the point though, to get back to the sales. When you are interacting with a customer, you are not reading that person's emotions, you are guessing, your brain is guessing. And it's probably a good idea to be humble about the quality of your guesses. Even someone who feels like they are excellent at reading people, their brain is just guessing and you can be wrong.
Parting Thoughts: Lisa’s Books and How to Reach Out to Her · [43:11]
Will Barron:
Love it. Okay. We'll wrap up the show with that Lisa. I really appreciate your time and your insights on this. With that tell us about, well, we've covered one of the books, tell us about both of them and where we can find out more about you as well.
Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:
Okay. You can find out more about me at my public website, lisafeldmanbarrett.com as much just my name.com. There are two books that you can find out about on that website. The first is How Emotions Are Made: The Secret Life of the Brain. Which is available worldwide. The second book is just new in the U.S. and we're coming out in the UK in March called Seven and a Half Lessons About the Brain. So ow Emotions Are Made is a pretty standard popular science book. It's about 300 pages long. It explains a lot about how emotions work, how you can control your emotions, some about how your brain works more generally.
Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:
Seven and a Half Lessons About the Brain is a little book of essays. It's really written for people who don't think of themselves as that interested in science. But what it does is in seven and a half little essays, it communicates some really cool ideas and facts about how brains work. So you can talk to your friends and, or maybe your customers and kind of wow them with some cool neuroscience tidbits. But it also invites you to think about what kind of a person you are or want to be given that you have this kind of brain that you have. It's a very quick read may husband calls it the first neuroscience beach read.
Will Barron:
Love it. Well, I'll link to both books at your website, everything else that we talked about in this episode of the show over to salesman.org. I will give myself a quick plug, which not done for a while. Regularness will note, I host a novel podcast called Excited Science, where we try and get people excited about science. So maybe we can chat on there in the future Lisa. I've not plugged that on this show for a while, so I'll plug it right there. And with that Lisa, I want to thank you again for your time, your insights on this. Absolutely fascinating. You've cleared up a bunch of old sales training nonsense as well. I think that's really valuable for the audience and I want to thank you again for joining me on the Salesman Podcast.
Setting Sales Goals That Lead To SMASHED Sales Targets | Salesman Podcast
Aug 03, 2022
Here you are—another year gone by.
And you almost, aaaaaalmost hit your sales goal this time!
Just like last year. And the year before that. And the year before that… But this year is going to be different. Maybe it’s the world rapidly changing around you. Or maybe it’s you getting another year older.
But this year, it’s time to get serious about setting sales goals and adapting your sales process.
And I’ve got just the framework to help. In just eight steps, you can map out where you want to be next year, strategize the steps you need to take to get there, narrow down which goals are a good fit, and more.
Ready to go? Let’s hit it.
Setting Sales Goals: Why It Works
Why should you be setting your own sales goals? And just as importantly, why should you start setting your goals strategically so that you don’t give up on them four months into the year?
As it turns out, setting sales goals is one of the easiest low-investment, high-return wins sales reps can make.
Here’s why setting your own sales targets is such a game-changer.
A) A Clear Path to Success
First and foremost, setting sales goals gives you a clear, indisputable path towards achieving massive professional success.
We can all agree that if you don’t know where you’re heading, it’s going to be a real pain to get there. And setting well-defined goals lets you plan out your path to success milestone by milestone.
What’s more, when you continually improve upon those goals (e.g., “I’m going to close 5% more deals than last year”), you’re creating the impetus you need to keep moving forward. And that means less career stagnation and consistent forward progression.
Having a clear path to success is also valuable for sales managers and sales teams too. When you can effectively communicate your sales cycle and where the sales revenue is going to come from, management will get off your back and allow you to get on with your job.
B) It Lets You Plan Ahead
Setting sales metrics (that are reasonable, mind you) also gives you a better indication of what lies ahead.
If, say, you need to close on 12 accounts this quarter, that means you need to aim for four accounts per month. If you’ve only closed two in the first month, that means you’ll have to work extra hard to close five in the other two months.
Setting annual sales goals based on numbers rather than more a subjective sales goal like “improving customer lifetime value” enables you to directly track progress too.
Added to that, your goals also help identify your busy seasons, your lulls, and when you should focus on other goals like filling your pipeline, streamlining your processes, or even taking a vacation.
C) Feel More Fulfilled at Work
Last (but certainly not least), setting and achieving your sales objectives boosts your confidence, teaches you self-management, and increases your proficiency on the job.
All these perks allow for faster upward mobility which often leads to greater satisfaction.
Don’t forget—achieving sales goals is often directly connected to bonuses and raises. And as we all know, compensation has a huge effect on overall job satisfaction.
The Setting Sales Goals Framework
Now that we’re agreed on why setting sales goals is so important, let’s jump into the how of it all.
How do you set sales objectives? Is there a sales goals template you can use? What do I need to do to set me up for success this year?
I developed The Setting Sales Goals Framework to answer these questions (and more).
With this framework, you can evaluate your priorities, identify areas of improvement, establish impactful goals, and set yourself up for your best year yet.
Plus, it’s made up of just eight simple steps.
What Did I Achieve Last Year?
What Were My Biggest Disappointments Last Year?
What Did I Learn Last Year?
How Do I Limit Myself & How Can I Stop?
What Roles Do I Play in My Life?
Which One of These Roles Is My Major Focus for Next Year?
What Are My Goals for Each Role?
What Are My Top 3 Goals for Next Year?
1. What Did I Achieve Last Year?
The process starts with an act hated with a passion by some and absolutely adored by others—bragging.
If you achieved something this year, you can do the same this year too.
What were your finest moments over the past 12 months? When did you feel unabashedly proud? Or when did you receive praise from a supervisor, coworker, friend, or partner?
Start with your professional accomplishments like if you hit your revenue targets and sales activities. But don’t stop there. Reach into your family and social life too.
Here are a few questions to get your accomplishment juices flowing.
Did you hit your sales target? Did you get closer than you have done in the past?
Did you move house? Did you decorate or repair your current home?
Did you start a new sales job or get a promotion? How much money did you earn in the last year? Did you pay off a debt?
Did you get married? Have a child? Did you get through a rough family patch?
Did you finally start to get fit? Are you exercising more than the previous year? Did you start to treat yourself to more enjoyable things? Did you read more books? See more friends?
Celebrate Your Accomplishments
You should force yourself to celebrate the wins no matter how small they seem.
There are two reasons for this.
First, you’re essentially rewiring your brain to associate completing goals with good feelings. When we skip the celebration phase of the productivity cycle, our brains get wired to associate completing a task with simply starting the next one.
There’s no reward here. And that’s going to make it harder to stay motivated and care about actually achieving your goal.
Added to that, this stage of the framework helps you balance your perception of yourself. You’re pulling up the celebrations that have been forgotten and weighing them against the losses in the next step.
The cool thing is that often when people go through this part of the worksheet, they find that they are doing far better than they thought they were.
Setting Sales Goals Pro Tip: Start a wins journal. Any time you get a compliment, a slap on the back, a “Great work!” or any other indication that you accomplished something important, write it down. Doing so helps you identify wins more easily and makes this first step much easier.
“One of my favorite things that I recommend to my clients is to create a journal. Call it your wins journal. So every time you have a win, small, medium, or large, write it down. Like, “Woohoo, celebrate! Today I talked with John DOE at Google, and he's always super excited about bringing our stuff into his company.” Write that down. So when you do get caught in these anxious moments, go back to your wins journal, like, “Oh yeah, that happened. That was real.” Remind yourself that you are good at what you do. You are enough, you've got this. – Interview with Michele Molitor, Coach, Hypnotist, & Imposter Syndrome Expert
2. What Were My Biggest Disappointments Last Year?
Next up is the opposite of the last step.
When did you feel like your abilities fell short of your expectations? When did you not stack up? And when did you miss the mark?
Writing out your disappointments shouldn’t be all doom and gloom. There is actually a lot of value in documenting your disappointments. For instance, it can be quite cathartic. I personally have always felt a great weight lifted from my shoulders every time I write down what went wrong rather than trying to pretend it didn’t happen.
Did you fail to hit your stretch goal? Did you make less sales calls than you planned? Did your last monthly sales goal right down the crapper?
Most people are more comfortable with their failures than their successes, and so they tend to keep them around, like cozy old friends. But when we hold onto our disappointments and don’t celebrate our wins, our self-perception becomes unbalanced.
Instead, you need to accept that your failures are a reflection of who you were a year ago. They are not reflective of what you’re capable of right now or what you’re going to be capable of six months from now.
Think of it as a garden. Pointing out our disappointments is like weeding the soil we’ve planted our seeds of achievement in, giving them the environment they need to grow.
Document Your Disappointments Too
Just as you started a wins journal in the last step, it’s important you document your disappointments as well.
Here are some questions ask yourself to get you thinking about any downsides of the past 12 months.
You didn’t hit your sales target, or you didn’t get the bonus you wanted
Your debt got bigger rather than smaller
You didn’t find that man or woman you wanted to bring into your life
Your dreams didn’t come through
Expectations were not fulfilled
You lost someone close to you
Your clothes are fitting a little tighter, but you’ve not gained any muscle
You were hoping to go on an awesome holiday away, but things didn’t work out
You wanted more time to yourself, but it didn’t happen
Write them down throughout the year and come back to them once it’s time to set new goals.
Setting Sales Goals Pro Tip: Be honest with yourself. Nothing good comes from sugarcoating the past. If you lie to yourself about your disappointments, you’re preventing yourself from avoiding those disappointments in the future and becoming a better, more successful sales rep.
“What I teach people is, just change one word around, from the prospect to I. How could I have made them believe that they were ready to buy? How could I have made them understand the price was right? How could I have made sure that they had everybody there? If you can change that one word and put the onus on yourself, you're going to learn from your failures, and those failures are going to start to diminish.” – Interview with Harvey J. Eisenstadt, Trainer, Speaker, Mentor, & Author
3. What Did I Learn Last Year?
Now is the time when you put the two previous steps together.
You achieved some spectacular wins. You ran into some unexpected disappointments. So, what did you learn from each?
What was the secret to your successes? What worked and what didn’t? And why were you able to achieve what you did and what caused you to fail when you did?
Take the time to move through both your wins and disappointments journals and find the lessons in each. And then, ask yourself these questions about those lessons:
What would’ve worked better?
What was the lesson I should have learned?
Have I actually learned this lesson yet?
Is there any evidence to prove that I learned it? What is the evidence?
Answering these questions gives you an opportunity to take on bigger challenges. If something failed last year, your answers to these questions give you an opportunity to learn what you can do differently next time to increase your chance of success.
Asking the REAL Questions
Struggling to find the lessons? Ask yourself these questions to tickle your brain a bit.
What do I need to change in the way I operate to have success faster?
Do I need more discipline?
Have I been honest with myself and others?
Am I taking care of myself as well as I need to be?
Do I face problems head-on, or do I put my head in the sand?
Do I let other people support me, or do I avoid getting feedback and help?
Do I support other people as much as I should?
Do I need to be more proactive in chasing my goals?
Do I need to say no more often and focus on what really matters?
As you learn from previous mistakes, you reduce the chances that failure happens again. And you also increase the chances of good events happening.
When you do that, you are changing the climate that you’re growing your seeds of success in. You’re increasing the amount of sunshine and rain. And you’re reducing the frost and pests killing your plants.
You’re cultivating success in your life.
Setting Sales Goals Pro Tip: It’s vital that you learn to find a lesson in EVERY failure. That’s why it’s so important to jot down your disappointments over the past year. And that’s why this step is so important for setting sales goals that lead you to professional success.
“I don't care if you're buying something or selling something. The easiest thing to do is give up and walk away. But if you can keep learning a lesson, asking why, wondering why, go back to your team, regroup with them and decide how to be bigger and better and stronger together; it's a formality that the byproduct is success.” – Interview with Derek Daly, Author & Motor Racing Legend
4. How Do I Limit Myself & How Can I Stop?
We are often our own worst enemy. And in many cases, the things that are holding us back the most are things we do to ourselves.
This crucial step of The Setting Sales Goals Framework is meant to help you identify where these self-imposed roadblocks are. Because once you do, only then can you overcome them.
Ask yourself these four questions to uncover your own limiting beliefs and behaviors.
How Do I Limit Myself?
You may come up with tons of different reasons here. And I want you to make note of every single one of them.
For instance, you may think:
I don’t plan and think ahead
I’m lazy
I believe what other people say about me
I don’t stand up for myself when my customers push me around
I don’t follow through on what I say I’m going to do
I spend more than I make
I don’t ask for what I want
Write them all down here.
What Has It Cost Me to Do So?
Next, analyze what each of those limits is costing you.
This step of the process immediately throws everything into perspective. And as a result, you’ll soon be able to identify that 20% of the issues once removed will give you 80% of all the benefits.
In What Ways Have I Benefited from Limiting Myself?
What are the upsides of limiting yourself?
Don’t be fooled here. There are always perks to limiting ourselves. If there weren’t, we wouldn’t be doing it in the first place.
Some of the benefits you come up with may be:
Living an easier life
Avoiding having too much expected of you
Living in ignorance and not having to face up to your issues
Increasing the chance that people approve of you
Having something to blame everything that goes wrong on
Having the excuse that you could “do better if you really tried” when things do go wrong
If I Knew How, Would I Be Willing to Stop Limiting Myself?
The final step is to ask yourself, “Am I willing to stop limiting myself in these ways?”
I don’t want you to worry about whether you think you’re going to be able to stop limiting yourself. Instead, ask yourself – “If I knew how, would I be willing to stop limiting myself in this area?”
If the answer is yes, then this should be a goal of yours moving forward.
Setting Sales Goals Pro Tip: Adopt an abundance mindset. An abundance mindset lets you see the vast potential in the world rather than being held down by scarcity and fear. And that means you can set better, more ambitious sales goals for yourself.
“We have abundance on this planet. The only limitations that are set, are set ourselves in what we believe we're able to achieve in a world full of abundance. Literally when you open your mind to that understanding, then why wouldn't you want to go out there and get every single thing you can. Because you know everything you could ever want and more is right here in one place. And it's nothing new. It's just a matter of you getting your hands on as much of it as possible.” – Interview with Ryan Stewman, Sales Coach & Business Consultant
5. What Roles Do I Play In My Life?
Next up, it’s time to define your roles. And not just your roles at work. But all of your roles in life.
Answering the question of “what roles do I play in my life?” allows you to get an overall view of all the aspects and responsibilities in your life. And doing so sets you up to identify which roles you want to focus on in the year ahead.
There are three benefits to identifying your roles.
1: It Provides Direction
Identifying your various roles lets you see how you’re being pulled in different directions.
For instance, I think of my roles as a salesperson, entrepreneur, Brazilian jujitsu competitor, partner to my girlfriend, and a member of the Baron family. Spending a lot of time at the gym, training, and competing in Brazilian jujitsu can be fulfilling. But the reality is that it’s pulling me away from my financial goals as a salesperson.
As you can see here, some goals in certain roles may work in tandem while others will pull away from each other.
2. It Generates Balance
On the flip-side of that, if I spent all of my time in the role of salesperson and entrepreneur, what would be the point?
Sure, I love selling, sure I love building the business. But they are just a vehicle to affording to do everything else I want to do in my life, which includes being a great partner and family member. It is very easy to spend too much time and attention on one area of your life and not enough time where it really matters.
3. It Gives Role Dichotomy
You can hold multiple roles in your life. And you can act differently within those roles. This is called role dichotomy.
For instance, I can’t take the aggressive version of me from a Brazilian jujitsu competition onto a sales call. If I do, I won’t close any deals. But I can dial back that part of me and tap into my emotional intelligence and calmness when I’m in my sales role.
Setting Sales Goals Pro Tip: You can’t just have one role. No one is just a salesperson, a parent, or a partner. We all play different roles in our lives. So be sure you’re really digging deep to find which ones you play.
“We can't be workaholics, no extreme is good. So we want to be able to relax, recharge, have fun. Therefore, finding time to be inspired and do things you love has again, positive domino knock-on effects to the rest of your life as does having lots of energy because your health is good, having healthy relationships at home and in your family.” – Interview with Matt Anderson, Author, Coach, & Speaker
6. Which One of These Roles Is My Major Focus For Next Year?
Now it’s time to pick out which of your roles you’d like to focus on.
Of course, I would like you to prioritize your sales career as your main focus over the next 12 months. But the reality is you may have other things that are more pressing right now.
And that’s fine. As long as your sales role is at least second on your list of priorities, you’re still going to be able to crush your sales target. In fact, if you are for example, massively obese, fixing the role of being healthy and being there for your family will also have a massive effect on your sales performance too as you lose weight and get in shape.
If you’re having a hard time figuring out which role to choose, ask yourself these questions:
If you could put one problem behind you, once and for all, what would it be? Which role does that relate to?
In which role do I want to not just make progress, but get to the end game of?
Which role has the biggest impact on my overall happiness right now?
Which aspect of my life is the biggest drain on my energy and willingness to take risks? Which role does this fall under?
Understand the Zigzag Trap
So, why do you need to focus things down at all? Can’t you just work on achieving all your goals at once? The answer here is no.
Remember the old saying, “If you don’t make sacrifices to achieve your goals, then your goals themselves become the sacrifice.”
Imagine that you have two major roles in your life, and each one of these roles is an island with lots of treasure on it. You start off the year, right in between the two islands treading water.
Now, you can only swim in one direction or the other, towards one island or the other one. What most people do is zigzag between the two islands for decades on end and never make any real progress toward achievement in either role.
But the most focused and successful individuals understand this trap. So they swim over to one island, collect the treasure, and then swim back to the other island and collect the treasure there as well.
When you’re focused on one main role at a time, you become far more efficient in your goal achievement.
Setting Sales Goals Pro Tip: The multitasking myth applies to larger goals, not just daily work. There’s been plenty of research that the most successful people don’t multitask. Instead, they focus on a single objective. Apply that same logic to your goals.
“It's basically been proven that multitasking is a myth. So stop it. Do one thing at a time. And I think that it's very useful to have a practice where you figure out, okay, what do I need to get done today, what are the most important priorities, and then just do them one at a time.” – Interview with Scott Ingram, Founder of Sales Success Media
7. What Are My Goals for Each Role?
This is where things start to get serious.
Now we’re going to put together goals for each role. What do you want to accomplish as a sales rep that you couldn’t last year? How would you like to improve your family life? What do you need to do to feel more in control of what you’re accomplishing socially?
Try to come up with five to ten goals for each role. And ask yourself the following questions about each goal along the way to make sure it’s the right goal for you.
If I accept this challenge, will I make sure it happens?
Am I hoping I will achieve this, or is it actually possible to achieve it?
Is the goal specific and measurable?
Does this goal match my values?
Are you willing to be responsible for achieving this goal no matter what?
That last question is incredibly important. Because if you’re not willing to do whatever you need to achieve the goal, you’re not going to be responsible for achieving it. And as a result, it will never happen.
For all of your goals, no matter what the role, you must feel motivated to give it your best shot. Otherwise, just scribble it out and replace it with a few more potential ones.
SMART Sales Goals Defined
It’s essential that your goals are as specific as possible. And setting SMART sales goals is the best way to ensure your goals meet those requirements.
So be sure your goals are SMART:
Specific – What exactly does achieving your goal look like?
Measurable – What are the quantifiable metrics you need to meet or fulfill?
Achievable – Is this even possible (be honest)?
Relevant – Is it even important compared to my role and my other goals?
Time-Bound – When exactly does it need to be achieved by?
Setting Sales Goals Pro Tip: When choosing goals, listen to your heart. Cheesy as all hell, I know. But when you choose goals that are connected to your emotions, you’re 10X more likely to have the motivation you need to follow through.
“This is why goal setting isn't very effective for most people, it doesn't get us to change action, it's our emotion that gets to change action.” – Interview with Matt Anderson, Author, Coach, & Speaker
8. What Are My Top Goals for Next Year?
Finally, it’s time to narrow down your goals. At this point in the framework, I typically have about 20 or 30 goals total, spread out across my different roles. But then I have to pick out the top five I think are going to be the most impactful.
One reason we narrow things down here is that you just can’t focus on achieving 20 to 30 goals at a time. Remember the zigzag trap? When you split your attention among so many goals, you’re setting yourself up to not achieve any of them.
But another reason we’re narrowing things down is there are often going to be larger goals that cancel out the small ones. For instance, if I want to build up an emergency fund, buy a new car, start investing, and earn a million dollars next year, the million dollars goal will make the other three irrelevant.
See how that works?
The 3-Part Test
So, how do you narrow your goals down? Well, there’s a handy little three-part test I like to use that does wonders.
When evaluating your goals, think:
Do your goals fit your major role focus? Do they all (in one way or another) support that role?
Do they fit with each other? Or are they pulling you in opposite directions? If so, you’re never going to be able to achieve both.
Does each of your roles have a goal? Frontloading one or two roles with all your goals is a surefire path to burnout. But spreading your goals across roles will keep you focused.
After you’ve narrowed down your goals into four or five, you’ve done all the hard work! Now, it’s up to you to stick with them.
Setting Sales Goals Pro Tip: Focus on getting maximum benefit. What you’re looking for are goals that have an unequal upside. That means you can put a 60% effort into it and get out a 95% benefit. They’re the “easier” wins.
“For people who want to achieve extraordinary results right now, it's actually not about working longer hours. It's actually about being clear on what are the 20% priorities or activities that if I focus on those things, that drives 80% of my results. How do I start investing my time throughout the day instead of spending it.” – Interview with Geoff Woods, Co-Founder & President of ProduKtive
Wrapping Up
Setting sales goals is one of the most important sales success skills. In relatively little time and for not much effort, you can implement the eight steps in The Setting Sales Goals Framework to plan out strategic, effective goals for the whole year.
All you need to do is:
What Did I Achieve Last Year?
What Were My Biggest Disappointments Last Year?
What Did I Learn Last Year?
How Do I Limit Myself & How Can I Stop?
What Roles Do I Play in My Life?
Which One of These Roles Is My Major Focus for Next Year?
What Are My Goals for Each Role?
What Are My Top 3 Goals for Next Year?
Running through this process alone will make an incredible difference in your life. You’re going to feel more motivated, focused, and driven to succeed. And best of all, you’ll have a clear, achievable path to success, both personally and professionally.
So now that you know how to set them, your first goal is simple… just get started.
How to Sell Against Competition: Convert Your Competitors Accounts To Your Own | Salesman Podcast
Aug 01, 2022
In the minds of many reps, competitor buyers are off-limits for prospecting. After all, why waste time with a buyer that’s already entrenched with someone offering a similar product?
But as it turns out, competitor buyers are some of the best prospects you can target. They’re more qualified, they’re budget-ready, and they’ve already got a buying process in place for your product.
That being said, these leads can be harder to win over, too. They’re more loyal, resistant to change, and they take a bit more convincing on why your product is superior.
So, how do you sell to competitor buyers successfully?
This guide dives into how to sell against a competitor to bring on their existing clients. Inside, we take a look at a proven four-step framework. And we also investigate why these leads can be so lucrative in the first place (and how they can skyrocket your commissions in no time).
Why Sell Into Competitor Accounts?
Before we get into how to sell against a competitor, let’s look at why you should consider selling to their buyers in the first place.
At first glance, the prospect of selling to your competition’s buyers can seem like a failed cause. Existing customers are loyal. They’re already familiar with your competitor’s products. And they’re resistant to change (the “don’t fix what ain’t broke” mindset).
That all adds up to harder sells, wasted time, and fruitless effort… right?
But as it turns out, there are plenty of benefits of selling to your competition’s buyers. And once you’ve developed a system for converting them that actually works, you can start to reap those benefits.
Potential Benefits (When You Do It Right)
So, why go after your competitor’s buyers at all? Below are a few of the biggest benefits of making the leap.
They’ve Already Demonstrated Product Interest – One of the hardest parts of bringing new customers on is demonstrating how your solution addresses their pain points. It’s why retaining repeat customers is 5X more valuable compared to finding new buyers, according to Invesp. Existing customers already see the need. And so do your competitor’s buyers. As a result, you don’t have to spend days and weeks explaining your product’s value—they already understand it because they’re already working with a similar product.
The Budget Is Settled – In addition to already demonstrating product interest, a competitor’s buyers have already allocated the space in their budget. When there’s already space in the budget, you don’t have to work as hard to justify spending extra. Instead, you can simply swap out your expenses with those of your competitors (if they’re comparable, of course).
Their Buying Process Is in Place – Last but not least, your competitor’s buyers know how this all works. They’ve done it before. The approvals, the training, the onboarding, the ongoing support—they get it. And they’re far less likely to be turned off by how extensive the buying process may be. For you, that means an easier sale and less feet dragging along the way.
Why It Can Be So Difficult to Pull Off
The perks are clear—your competitor’s buyers are more qualified, more price-friendly, and more efficient than bringing on new clients. What’s not to love about that?
But there are also some downsides to going this route too. Namely, converting these buyers can be a tough sell. At least in some cases. Here’s why.
Loyalty – If a buyer has stuck with a brand for years, you may have trouble overcoming loyalty. Loyalty is a powerful purchasing motivator. InMoment found 77% of consumers say they’ve held relationships with specific brands for 10 years or more. And 61% go out of their way to buy from them. That can make it especially difficult to bring loyal customers over to your side.
Lack of Differentiation – Piggybacking on the last point, a buyer isn’t going to make a shift unless there’s an especially compelling reason to do so. How do you address needs better than the competitor? Are you faster? More feature-rich? Do you provide more value for less investment? If you can’t demonstrate why you’re better or even if you’re better, you’ll have little luck in closing a deal.
Change Hesitancy – Finally, individuals are change-averse. But businesses and organizations are even more resistant to rocking the boat. Change is scary. And there’s risk involved in working with a new vendor. It’s up to you to show how partnering with your business addresses those risks and provides more potential benefit than the potential detriment of signing on.
The Competitive Takeover Framework
Now that we understand both the perks and difficulties of acquiring this type of buyer, let’s look at how to sell against competition.
How do you convince a loyal customer to come on board when they’re already loyal to another company? The trick is to address unfulfilled needs, establish some buy-in, overcome objections, and drive urgency.
The best way I’ve found to do just that is by following what I call The Competitive Takeover Framework.
This framework is composed of four simple steps:
Find the Gap
Get Agreement
Eliminate Self Doubt
Answer “Why Now?”
And when implemented effectively, it will persuade even the staunchest potential buyers to do business with you.
1. Find the Gap
The first and arguably most important step to master if you’re wondering how to sell against lower priced competition is finding and exploiting “the gap.”
To explain, the only reason a potential buyer would switch away from their current vendor to you is because they have an unmet need. Maybe that need is a specific feature. Maybe it’s more advanced technical support. The list of potential needs is limitless.
But in the end, those unmet needs typically translate into hassle for the buyer. And if you can reduce that hassle, you’ve just found the most powerful change motivator of all. That is the gap.
The gap occurs between the end of the competition’s sales cycle and the end of your sales cycle. You can think of these ends as the status quos after implementing each solution.
Take a look at the graph below for a better idea of what the gap looks like.
See how the gap is defined by where the buyer is now versus where they could be after implementing your solution?
The goal is to identify how your product can alleviate the buyer's pain points in a way their current solution cannot. With the gap, you’re building a solid foundation that you can use to demonstrate how the buyer’s life stands to benefit from switching. And it’s the logical reasoning you need to convince them to make the change.
A Few Notes on the Gap
As you’re identifying and leveraging your buyer’s gap, there are a few things you need to remember.
The bigger the gap is, the easier it’s going to be to convert the account. Essentially, a bigger gap means you have more value to offer. And if that gap is small, the risks of changing vendors to your company might outweigh the benefits.
The process of navigating the value gap is slower but less painful than implementing the original solution.
Once this process of change has happened, the next value gap is between the second sales cycle status quo and then the third. As you go further along (i.e., third to fourth, fourth to fifth), the value gap tends to shrink. Therefore, converting an account that has been converted many times over is tougher than converting an account that has only been sold into once.
Gap Building Questions
Now that you know what the gap is, let’s talk about how to identify it with your buyer.
There are two questions you should ask during this stage:
What pain points are you experiencing with your current solution?
Are those pain points actually important to you?
Let’s get more in-depth with each.
With the first question, you are getting your buyer to both acknowledge that there are unaddressed pain points and coaxing them to let you know what those unmet pain points are.
In the real world, that might look something like this:
Seller – “I’m curious, when you tried to increase the number of sales that your team is making (remove pain) by using in-person sales training (benefits of a product), how did it go?”
Buyer – “It worked well at first, but then quickly everybody went back to their old ways, and revenue stagnated again.”
After that question, we’re going to further qualify that this is a gap we can sell into by asking a downplay question.
The question might look like this:
“Perhaps everyone selling as they always have (pain point just uncovered) isn’t that important to you because you’re hitting all your targets already (reason it might not be important)?”
This question is invaluable at uncovering information. If the buyer fights back and tells us that this pain point really is an issue for them, then we know we’ve found the gap. If, on the other hand, the buyer agrees with you that the pain point isn’t that big of a deal, they’re probably not worried about it, and so it’s going to be difficult to close a sale with them.
Pro Tip: After identifying the buyer’s unmet pain points in the first question, don’t jump right in explaining why your solution is superior. Doing so undermines the decisions the buyer made in the past. And that can lead to reactive discussions where they’re feeling defensive—not a very sales-receptive position.
2. Get Agreement
Having highlighted the gap, it’s time for a simple—yet essential—step for getting buy-in from your prospect. And it all hinges on a very peculiar human quality.
See, once you get a single “yes” out of an individual, all the “yes” responses that follow are easier to earn. The pill gets a little less jagged and easier to swallow each time.
That’s why you must get the buyer to verbally agree that the gap you’ve uncovered is truly worth the risk and the pain of change. If they say no, then they’ve just disqualified themselves as a potential buyer, taking a lot of extra work off your plate. If they say yes, then they’re a good candidate and worth trying to convert them into a buyer.
So the question is, how do we get the buyer to verbally agree to make a change?
There are four steps in particular here:
The “What” Question
The “Confirmation” Question
The “Reversal” Question
Get Agreement
Step 1: The “What” Question
This question is designed to defy the buyer’s expectations that they’re about to get hit with some manipulative sales pitch. Instead of being pushy and off-putting, we’re going to probe a little bit deeper into their needs.
This question may look something like this:
In regard to (the pain), what would you like to see happen with it?
It’s a simple question. But it's open-ended enough to bring to light some very serious pain points and solutions that you may not have uncovered otherwise.
Step 2: The “Confirmation” Question
Next up, we’re going to ask a question that confirms you’ve heard the buyer correctly about their pain points and desired solutions. Something like this:
What I’m hearing you say that you want is (repeat what they said). Have I got that right?
There’s quite a bit of subtlety in this question. On the one hand, you’re confirming that what you’re hearing is what the buyer wants, not what you’ve already pitched. This gives the buyer more agency and connects their wants to your product implicitly.
Beyond that, you’re also demonstrating to the buyer that you are invested in their needs and that you’re listening—fantastic for building rapport.
Step 3: The “Reversal” Question
Here in particular, the buyer will begin dreading what they think is ahead—the pitch. That unbearable time when talking to a rep where they feel they’re being manipulated, cheated, and coerced into a sale.
But what you’re going to do here is play off those expectations by asking the opposite of what they’re thinking. You’re going to ask them what they want.
That might look like this:
So, it seems like there are some issues here. What would you like me to do?
With a big enough gap, your potential buyer will be enthusiastic about working with you and ask to engage in the next steps (send us a proposal, schedule a demo, etc.).
Step 4: Get Agreement
Finally, you need to seal the deal by getting a verbal agreement to work together from the buyer. This commitment helps lock the buyer into partnering up. And it also does wonders for preventing them from bailing out further down the line.
This question might look like this in practice:
If I can solve (the pain), will you move from (competitor) to us?
Simple as that!
3. Eliminate Self-Doubt
At this stage of the framework, you’ve already identified the value gap and gotten the buyer to commit to signing on if you can solve their current pains. Sounds like that should be the end of things, right? What else is left?
As it turns out, logic alone isn’t enough to get buyers on board. Because buyers are humans. And humans are guided by emotions and social pressures. That means when there’s a risk of looking stupid, a buyer is going to be far less likely to sign on with you.
For instance, if a buyer signs on with your competitor only to switch to another vendor, they’re going to feel embarrassed in front of their colleagues. That’s why it’s up to you to give the buyer all the tools they need to look like the hero of the story.
There are two main ways to do that—give them customer stories and focus on the upside.
The Value of Customer Stories
Since humans are so innately social, it’s easy to understand why customer stories can have such a huge impact on how your buyer feels about signing on with you.
The opinions of others are highly influential on our own courses of action. And when you feed your potential buyer with customer success stories, it can do wonders in eliminating self-doubt.
Focus on customer stories where the case in question involves a buyer similar to your target prospect. The more similar they are, the more likely it’ll resonate with your target.
On top of that, these customer stories have the dual effect of showing buyers that other people are in fact making big changes. And those changes have paid off big in the long run.
Focus on the Upside
To even further eliminate self-doubt, you can ask a series of rhetorical questions that get prospects to understand the value of making the change.
What I call “would it be worth it” questions are fantastic for helping buyers focus on the upsides. These questions might look something like this:
“If we move forward with the deal, get your team trained, and all it did was increase their performance by 10%, would it be worth it?”
“If we replace the competitor’s camera equipment and all it did was eliminate all the breakdowns and lost time you’re currently facing, would it be worth it?”
Again, the questions here are mostly rhetorical. But along the way you’ll also be uncovering underlying desires of the buyer that may not have been out in the open before.
4. Answer “Why Now?”
Having identified the gap, gotten agreement, and eliminated self-doubt, it’s time to compel action.
In a perfect world, buyers would act immediately. After all, the sooner you implement, the sooner you can start seeing the benefits.
But we don’t live in a perfect world, unfortunately. And many buyers put off a purchase decision as much as they can. Maybe it’s next week, maybe next month, or maybe next quarter. But with each passing day, the odds of them pulling out of a deal grow higher and higher.
That’s why it’s vital you get your buyer to act now.
And that’s where trigger events come in. A trigger event is an event that gets people thinking about doing things a bit differently. It could be a superior product launch from a competitor. Or a CTO with institutional knowledge leaving the company. Or it could be a CRM breakdown that obliterates years of customer data.
No matter what the trigger event is, it’s bound to spur rapid change. And they’re great leverage for inspiring your competitor’s buyers to switch to your product.
You’ll know you’re in the right place at the right time when a trigger event is happening because you’ll hear your buyers say:
“It's ironic you have reached out to me right now. I have a concern about one of your competitors.”
“I'm delighted you called. We're looking at making a change. Can we speak next week?”
There are a few different types of trigger events that you can take advantage of.
Trigger Event 1: Bad Experiences
A bad user experience is likely to cause dissatisfaction. And when that happens, the buyer’s emotions will be running high. That’s the perfect time to convert an account, and buyers will be much more receptive to your pitch afterward.
Trigger Event 2: Internal Changes
An internal change within the buyer's organization is another type of trigger event. It could be a change in talent, moving locations, shifting priorities, or anything else that makes the previous status quo now unmanageable.
This trigger event usually follows after a change in personnel or location. But it can also happen when there is a change in priorities in the organization from the top down too.
For instance, a computer company may decide overnight to stop producing hardware and only focus on software. This would be a great trigger event to exploit.
Trigger Event 3: Catastrophe
A catastrophic trigger event could be any of the other two trigger events, but this one is held in its own category because it immediately displaces your competition. In fact, it can displace the buyer making purchases of any kind.
One of the best recent examples of a catastrophe trigger event is COVID-19 in 2020. Overnight, buyers stopped buying certain products and services altogether. What’s more, these were products and services that were thought to be absolutely indispensable.
These events might happen only once every decade within large organizations, and so if you’re trying to convert an account and a catastrophic event hits, it's like winning the lottery.
Artificial Trigger Events
If your market doesn’t have any trigger events right now, you can (and should) create an artificial trigger event.
While you can’t (and shouldn’t) try ousting CTOs, tainting competitor buyer experiences, or causing global catastrophes, you can offer a time-sensitive discount or benefit.
Think 5% off, free technical support for a week, or even professional training to sweeten the pot. But again, make sure it’s time-sensitive as otherwise the buyer won’t feel compelled to act.
Wrapping Up
Some salespeople don’t bother with going after their competitor’s accounts. They think their buyers are too entrenched in their current solution. And trying to bring them over is a waste of time and effort.
But buyers from the competition are actually some of the best leads you can get. They’re qualified, budget-ready, and efficient implementors. The only trick is you have to understand how to convince them your solution is the way to go.
The Competitive Takeover Framework is the absolute best method for persuading your competition’s buyers that you’re the superior solution to their problems.
Just follow the four simple steps:
Find the Gap
Get Agreement
Eliminate Self Doubt
Answer “Why Now?”
That’s all it takes. When you implement this framework into your processes, you’ll be amazed how quickly you’re converting buyers loyal to your competitor into excited new clients for your business.
And most importantly, you’ll be bringing on more qualified, ready-to-buy, and knowledgeable clients—letting you focus on closing more sales than ever.
How To Identify “Do Nothing Deals” And Win More Of Them
Jul 29, 2022
Tom Pisello is the current Chief Evangelist for sales enablement at Mediafly. On this episode of the Salesman Podcast, Tom uses data-backed evidence to explain “Do Nothing Deals” and how salespeople can break the status quo to close more of these deals.
You'll learn:
Sponsored by:
Free SalesCode assessment
Learn your strengths and weaknesses in an instant. Taken by over 10,000+ of your competitors. Don't get left behind.
Take the free assessment
Featured on this episode:
Host - Will Barron
Founder of Salesman.org
Guest - Tom Pisello
Chief Evangelist, Mediafly
This episode of the show is brought to you from the salesmen.org HubSpot studio. Coming up on today's episode of the Salesman Podcast.
Tom Pisello:
Yeah, buyers are looking to make a choice or an improvement in their environment, and a do nothing deal happens when they decide to stick with their status quo. Maybe the investment that's required is so high compared to the change and the benefits they can get, the outcomes they can get, that it's not worthwhile. But one of the important things is that people move away from pain emotionally much more than being attracted to gain.
Will Barron:
Hello, sales nation. My name Will Barron, I'm the host of the Salesman Podcast, the world's most downloaded B2B sales show. On today's episode, we have an absolute legend, really enjoyed this conversation, we have Tom Pisello. He is the author of the book Evolved Selling, which you can find on Amazon and everywhere else as well. On today's episode, we're getting into what to do with “do-nothing deals.” So what do nothing deals are, how to break through the status quo and get some more of these closed. And Tom comes at this with tonnes of research and data. And so there's tonnes to go out with this episode, so let's jump right into it. Tom, welcome to the Salesman Podcast.
Tom Pisello:
Pleasure to be here, Will. Thank you so much for inviting me.
What are “Do Nothing Deals”? · [01:38]
Will Barron:
You're more than welcome. I'm glad to have you on. On today's episode, we're going to get into what to do when we have do nothing deals. Now, to set things up, Tom, before I throw my thoughts into the picture here, what is a do nothing deal? Let's clarify this before we suss out how to deal with the situation.
“Buyers are looking to make a choice or an improvement in their environment. And a do nothing deal happens when they decide to stick with their status quo.” – Tom Pisello · [01:41]
Tom Pisello:
Yeah, buyers are looking to make a choice or an improvement in their environment. And a do nothing deal happens when they decide to stick with their status quo, or their business as usual, and really the whole buying decision process that they've been through, all those meetings, all the committees, all the getting it together. All that time and effort from the buyer perspective is all thrown away, obviously your sales time with them is thrown away too, and they decide not to go with you, not to go with a competitor, but just stick with business as usual. Maybe relying on that legacy solution or the broke business processes that they're using today. And so, unfortunately we see too many pipeline opportunities ending with do nothing or as Gartner calls it, no decision.
How to Handle ‘No Deal’ Sales Scenarios · [02:42]
Will Barron:
We are clearly biassed here on this podcast. Yourself and I, many companies, many roles within the sales space, and myself, all I do is help sales professionals close more deals, earn more commissions, and crush it in their sales jobs. Are there times when a no deal or a no decision is the appropriate decision for the buyer?
“I think there are times as sellers that we need to be ready to sometimes say, “You know what, no decision or do nothing might be the most appropriate.” – Tom Pisello · [03:38]
Tom Pisello:
You know, there could be times where maybe their problem is not that big of a problem. Maybe the legacy solutions and business processes maybe aren't that broke. Maybe the investment that's required is so high compared to the change and the benefits they can get, the outcomes they can get, that it's not worthwhile, or sometimes the organisation just isn't ready for change. And so those are three just quick ones, where it is appropriate. That may be your advice to the customers is, “Look you might not be ready for this.” And I've given that advice to certain customers or, “What you're doing now, you could get some benefit from what I'm providing, but maybe not all of the benefits to overcome all the work and effort and risk of change.” So I think there are times as sellers that we need to be ready to sometimes say, “You know what, no decision or do nothing might be the most appropriate.”
Examining External Market Forces and a Salesperson’s Ability to Influence “No Deal Scenarios · [04:38]
Will Barron:
For sure, because where I want to go with this, is it a sales person's responsibility to never have a no deal? Is it in our control or are there other kind of market forces that dictate some of this?
Tom Pisello:
Yeah, there definitely are these external market forces. And you know what, identifying a company that is going to end up at no decision or do nothing, as quickly as possible, should be one of the missions we have, right? Which is understand that the outcomes are going to be significant, that the company has the investment that they're ready to make, that they're ready to implement a change and be successful. Many of us now are selling subscription services. So our selling doesn't end with that. Firstly, we have to make sure they're going to be successful and going to achieve those outcomes. So if you're able to identify that a company maybe has one of these three issues, perhaps that's better, you don't waste as much time on them, and maybe you can advise them not to waste their time as well on a decision cycle that might end badly.
Logical and Emotional Responses to Proposed Change · [05:13]
Will Barron:
For sure. It's somewhat common sense, we want to qualify some of this out, but why I find it difficult to do this practically when I'm selling our training to the enterprise, as opposed to individuals, I get into a lot of conversations where the buyer is stuck in the status quo. They've always done things one way, and now with COVID, they'd been given a big kick in the arse to do all the cliche stuff of digital transformation, remote selling, all these kinds of things. So now there's a bit less status quo in the marketplace from my perspective. But where I find it difficult to qualify is when logically they should move forward, but emotionally they get stuck. Do you have any thoughts on how to suss out when we are in the qualification process whether we want to invest our time into this buyer, whether we can suss out whether logically we know that they want to work with us, but whether emotionally they are ever going to come round.
Tom Pisello:
Yeah, there are a lot of organisations that are stuck, stuck in the mud kind of organisations. And I don't think there's a precise science for understanding whether those companies will move or not. If the company is willing to recognise that they are broken and that it is costing them a lot of money to stick the status quo, I think that that's one way where you can get them to maybe know that they're going to move. I think the other is that you have to think about the outcomes and the value, not just from an organisational or a company standpoint, but from a personal standpoint. So personally, does your stakeholder have the motivation to change? Are they feeling enough pain every day from what's going on, and are they willing to put their job on the line, or perhaps their reputation on the line, by being the champion behind your solution? And what is the business value benefits that they're going to ultimately get is important, but sometimes the personal benefits that they may be able to achieve by doing this is something that you want to amplify to understand whether emotionally they're connected with the solution or not.
Why Change Only Happens When the Pain of Staying the Same is Greater Than the Pain of Change · [06:52]
Will Barron:
I know it's difficult because we're talking very in broad terms here, but are there any qualifying questions we could ask? One that comes to mind could be as I'm jotting down notes from our conversation here Tom, could we ask a question along the lines of, “Do you believe that there could be a better solution?”, just to see if there's a willingness to have someone put the solution in front of them and to move forward with it. Is there anything else we can ask question-wise?
“People move away from pain emotionally, much more than being attracted to gain.” – Tom Pisello · [07:58]
Tom Pisello:
You can, Will. One of the big things with emotion though, is that you can ask questions about the benefits that they may be able to get out of it on a personal basis, an organisational basis, or a business basis. Personal are the things that impact them every day: recognition, raises, respect from the organisation. Business is the cost savings, the productivity improvements, process improvements, risk avoidance, and then revenue growth. And then on an organisational basis, how does this impact the ultimate end user and the customer and improving the experience of all those that are involved. So those are the three dimensions that we measure on, but one of the important things is that people move away from pain emotionally, much more than being attracted to gain. So the only change I would make, Will, in your question is focus on, “Does the person you're talking to, do they have a good perspective on the personal pain they're experiencing today and is that extreme enough for them to move?”
Tom Pisello:
And then on the organisation side and the business side, similarly. Rather than say, “Oh, do you believe you're going to be able to get these benefits out?” Say, “How bad is it? How bad do you think it is today? And what is that costing you perhaps by sticking where you're at?” And so if you're able to get them to clearly understand, and to be able to articulate back to you in a more amplified way, the pains that they're experiencing, that's when I find that you've made that emotional connection and that they're ready and they're primed. And you have to do that, not just for your champion, but all the other dozen or so other flippant stakeholders that we have in every deal now to make sure that everyone understands the pain that's involved. And too quickly as sellers, I think we understand our solution and we understand maybe the benefits that it can deliver. And I think too often, we jump to that rather than really spending time to make sure that the customer and all of the stakeholders really understand how much the affliction is costing them and how painful it is and making sure everyone is aligned on that before we jump to the solution and the ultimate benefits that get delivered.
Why Most Customers Want Their Pains Fixed Rather Than Their Pleasures Enhanced · [09:33]
Will Barron:
It's interesting you talk about pain versus pleasure. We're actually going through, and this is marketing. The audience will appreciate this though. We're going through a massive change of our marketing over at salesman.org and our training product and the things that we offer at the moment. Cause we did a poll, and I think it's about three-and-a-half-thousand people replied to the poll, and now, polls are not ideal way to measure intent and different things, but the data is what it is. And we asked people essentially what they wanted from sales training. “What do you want to achieve by doing this?” I thought the answer would be, earn more money, more prestige, easier life. But the response was all negative. People were suffering, they talk about a lack of motivation, even the way that they framed up the answers.
Will Barron:
It wasn't, “We want more motivation.” It was, “I don't want to have this lack of motivation anymore. I want that pain to be removed.” What was another one? But that was the top one by a mile. Salespeople in our audience, for whatever reason, are massively unmotivated at the moment. Another one was complexity. People wanted things to be simpler, which is why we're pushing everything towards this selling made simple branding that we're doing now. And I'm really focusing on adding fundamentals and frameworks as opposed to more higher level conversations and topics like that. And it was really interesting to me that it was all, “How can I remove these negatives?”, as opposed to, “How can I earn bigger commissions?”, which was my assumption going into this. Does that surprise you?
“Connecting to a pain is so much easier than trying to convince someone of a gain.” – Tom Pisello · [11:06]
Tom Pisello:
It doesn't surprise me. And I'll talk psychologically about where we're at with a couple of those things. But the good news for you, Will, is that you're connecting to a pain, which is much easier than trying to convince someone of a ain. So you should be leveraging that if you're able to solve that pain problem, because they're recognising they do have this pain and they want the motivation. They're suffering from a lack of motivation. You're in a great spot. So anytime we can get our buyers or customers to really connect with them on the pain side, we know that we're solving something that's worth solving and worth it for the client to invest in. And that's a good thing. Let's talk a little bit about simplification and why that is coming up. And I think this goes a lot to the no decision drivers, the do nothing drivers, that Gartner found.
“40% of buying journeys right now are ending in no decision.” – Tom Pisello · [11:51]
Tom Pisello:
So first of all, when we look at the problem, 94% of buyers have participated in a cancelled buying cycle over these past two years. And with COVID, although you indicate that things like transformation and some of these projects, you can't stick with status quo, we're actually seeing more of an issue of change rather than less. And you wouldn't think that because the motivation is there to change, but there's a couple of factors, and 40% of buying journeys right now are ending in no decision. So what's changed and what's driving that? Well, there were three issues that Gartner came up with. One was, why are decisions ending with do nothing? Changes in priorities. So 49% indicated that that's the number one issue. So what's happening in organisation is, and what's happening as a seller, you're going in, and underneath the buyer, all of these things are changing, and things are in a lot of flux right now.
Tom Pisello:
So you start off selling towards one challenge that the buyer's having. And before, you know it, two weeks in, a month in, their priorities have been shaken up because their management and executives are having to move so quickly. And so we're facing this quicksand of changing priorities, and what you have to do with that, well, you really have to make sure you align with priorities and that you revisit those priorities. Like in subsequent calls, “Here's my understanding of the challenges we're addressing. Have any of these changed?” As new people come on, making sure you're gathering and making sure that everyone involved is aligned, and then making sure you're asking that question to the buyer that says, “Hey, I know these are your priorities.” As we go up the chain to the other decision makers, like, what is the top level strategic priority we're tying to? Because if you're not aligned to that top strategic priority, even if it's a good business case for the solution and there's good justification behind it, it can sometimes be, “Well, that's not a priority for us now. We're only focusing on the top three priorities.”
Tom Pisello:
The second priority was perceived business and or technical risks, 45% indicated that. Here's where simplification and things like transparency and facilitation all come into play. Three absolutely critical factors right now. So what has happened to us during this crisis, Will, is that we're under a lot of stress and strain. Personal life, working from home. If you're a seller, one of the pieces of feedback I think you're getting on lack of motivation is, I can't be shaking hands with people. I can't be having dinner with them. We've got a lot of extroverts in this marketplace, and they are being forced to be introverts and selling through a 13-inch monitor, which isn't good for anyone. But there's a lot of change and tumult, whether that be health related, environmental related, personal related, working from home related, job related.
“When you go in and you start presenting a solution, if it isn't really simple, and if you are not incredibly trustworthy from the word go, and you're not making it easy to understand, easy to buy, and completely transparent and trustworthy, you're not going to get that sale.” Tom Pisello · [15:00]
Tom Pisello:
They are a tonne of stresses strains on all of our buyers, personal lives, and business lives. Amygdala overload, is what it's called. And so when you go in and you start presenting a solution, if it isn't really simple, and if you are not incredibly trustworthy from the word go, and you're not making it easy to understand, easy to buy, and completely transparent and trustworthy, you're not going to get that sale because the fight, flight, or freeze mechanism within the amygdala complex in the primitive brain is already on overload. It's already overstimulated from everything that's going on around each one of our buyers. And when we present a solution, if it is a stack of all of these different options, and it's really hard, there's a lot of options to assemble these things in a multiple, they're going to go and shut down on you and basically go into possum mode.
Tom Pisello:
They might not run. They might not fight, but they'll go into freeze, which is just as common a response as fight or flight, even though everyone calls it, fight or flight. So you have to keep it simple. As they're going through the buying process, if you make it too complex and you don't streamline the steps, and if you don't proactively anticipate what they might run into, they can freeze through that process as well. And so you have to facilitate that and trust. There used to be a time where you would have to emotionally stoke buyers to change from status quo. Well, think about going in with the challenger-like approach today, which is a very popular approach. And I love the challenger guys. I've had a chance to interview many of the original creators and stakeholders, whether it be for my book or my podcast.
“Before, 50% of decision making might've been emotional, 25% was logic was, and 25% was trust. We've now shifted to where most of the buying decisions now, 50% is based on trust.” – Tony Pisello · [17:01]
Tom Pisello:
And the amazing thing with all of the challenger is, it works. When you go in and you want to shake up the status quo, you use these techniques of delivering insights and education. But when everyone is on Amygdala overload, you have to temper that. Whereas before 50% of decision making might've been emotional, and 25% of logic was, and 25% was trust, we've now shifted to where most of the buying decisions now, 50%, is based on trust. Why? Because there's not a lot we can hang onto out there. When the world is changing underneath us, we want people we can trust, we want companies we can trust, and the key there is to be transparent. You can't do everything. You can't be everything for everybody. Embrace your flaws. Do what you say you're going to do. Make sure you got plenty of proof points at every step to back up what it is that you're saying, whether those be real-world examples, using their solution or your solution to solve their particular problem. So use case demos, pilot programmes, plenty of success stories, good references, all things like that to build up that trust because that's now 50% of the buying decision. And if you're not able to gain that trust, you could have shaken up the status quo and logically convinced them, but you're not going to get them to make that decision.
Tom Pisello:
And then, Will, there's one more, I know I'm going on for a while here.
Will Barron:
I'm sat here in silence, just writing notes to come at you with a thousand questions in a second because I don't want to inter- I've done it now, but I didn't want to interrupt your flow.
“The buyer doesn't know how to justify your solution” – Tom Pisello · [19:01]
Tom Pisello:
Yeah, no, no, no. So there is one third issue that I think is also important in this overcoming and addressing the no decision, and that's budget issues and constraints, 44%. Shoot, that shouldn't be any surprise to anyone, right? Even companies that are investing a lot in digital transformation and are spending money because their business models may have been disrupted, they're still being spendthrift. Frugal-nomics is what I call it. And it is really in full effect right now. So how are you going to get that project approved by the COVID committee? How are you going to get through the CF no? Well, you've got to have financial justification, and you can't leave that to chance. The buyer doesn't know how to justify your solution in. You have to give them and work with them to co-create that business case to then take up to the executive. So align, simplify, facilitate, transparency, and trust, and justification are five ways to kind of address this no decision.
How the Best Salespeople Tackle “No Decision” Scenarios and Adress the Gap in Buyer Expectation · [19:25]
Will Barron:
Tom, have good salespeople been doing everything that you just described regardless for maybe not decades, but for years now? Is this nothing new? Are some listeners now going to listen to this and go, “I'm doing all that and everything's going fine.”?
There's over a 40% gap between what buyers expect you as a seller to deliver.” – Tom Pisello · [20:17]
Tom Pisello:
Yeah. Well, if everything's going fine, that's good. Have they been doing it? I think to varying degrees. If you ask the buyers how well they've been doing it, I think you'll see a decided gap. What we call the engagement gap. Sellers are doing some of these elements, but they haven't evolved as quickly or elevated as quickly as buyers want them to. And there's a lot of great research from the Rain Group, Dave Shaby and the team over there, that point to this, and that there's over a 40% gap between what buyers expect you as a seller to deliver. Much of that research was across these exact dimensions. And where the sellers are perceived to be. So if we're doing it, the majority of sellers are not being rewarded for it, one way or another. So what are some of the things that came up in that research?
Why Buyers Believe Salespeople are Not Listening to Them in The Virtual Selling Space · [20:41]
Tom Pisello:
Well, one of the big ones was listening, right? Buyers don't think that we're listening to them. Well, why is that? Well in a virtual meeting, what's happening is, Will, as you're talking to me or as I'm talking to you, your head is down, you're taking notes, right? And so all of a sudden the buyer's perceiving, because now we're in a new medium, that you're not listening to them. That's about one of several of these factors that to me again are these fundamental selling principles like, of course you've got to align, of course you've got to simplify your solution, of course you've got to facilitate. Of course you have to listen, but because it's a new medium, with virtual meetings and Zooms, because it is an environment where buyers have been spoiled by consumerization and they expect things to be ultra simple and ultra facilitated.
“If we just did the things we did two or three years ago in the exact same way we did them, we're falling down on the declining value side and seller’s expectations are elevating that much more.” – Tom Pisello · [21:40]
Tom Pisello:
And because they're under more pressure and there's more stakeholders about, so there's all of these factors that are adding up to be where if we just did the things we did two or three years ago in the exact same way we did them, we're falling down on the declining value side and sellers' expectations are elevating that much more. So I think we have to just work on having this growth mindset and across each of these dimensions really look and say, “Am I aligning the way that buyers expect me to align?” “Is my solution really as simple as I think it is?” Or, “Am I over-complicating it?”
Tom Pisello:
We implemented jumpstart services to make it be where there's like, “Here, it's all bundled. You get 50 users, it's a quick pilot. You can bail out at any time, so there's a money-back guarantee, and in completeness, you've got 30, 60, 90 days to try it out, and we do all the work for you. So there's no risk.” It's those kinds of things that make it a simple decision so that they don't maybe have to go through that long process, or worry about which pieces they're going to put together and then how much each piece is going to cost and all the risk involved in that.
Tom Pisello:
So you have to rethink each one of these really important elements to say, “Am I delivering it in a way where I've elevated it to buyers expectations?” For example, justification. If you're just going to do a back of the napkin calculation with no proof points, no research, is that going to be enough? Or you're going to do a deep dive in a spreadsheet that no one can understand. Is that the way to deliver it in this professional new-century selling model that we're in?
“With this new consumerized buyer, there's a whole set of new capabilities that are going to elevate those sellers that are looking to up their game and looking to grow and evolve.” – Tom Pisello · [26:36]
Tom Pisello:
And I think the answer to a lot of these, if you're really introspective, is no. These are all blocking and tackling elements, but you've got to do them in a different, better way now that we're Zooming in our sailing, now that we're all-virtual, all-digital. With this new consumerized buyer, there's a whole set of new capabilities that are going to elevate those sellers that hopefully are the ones that listened to you and I, that are looking to up their game and looking to grow and evolve.
“I think salespeople too often will take what marketing gives to them or take what the sales managers give to them and just regurgitate it and assume it works.” – Will Barron · [24:03]
Will Barron:
I'm going to ask you a question in a second of, do you have any books, resources, other than your own, that you'd recommend for salespeople who want to learn to simplify and to create the value propositions and things of this nature, because that's a skill in its own right, and I think salespeople too often will take what marketing give to them, take what the sales managers give to them, and just regurgitate it and assume it works. But before we get to that, I've got one anecdote on this. So we did a new webinar the other day. I'm pretty open with the webinar statistics. Typically about 10% of people on a webinar, when there's hundreds of people on, that will sign up to our training product at the end of it. It's how I can sit there, answer questions, and essentially sell at scale.
Will Barron:
Now we changed our offer within the webinar, and it's interesting, and this is why I bring it up, because we added trust to it. And I'll explain what the offer is in a second, dead simple, the value proposition. We added trust to it. I'm just going through some of our notes here from this episode. Made it simpler, covered some budget issues. And we changed essentially the premise of the training that we offer to individuals to use the value proposition of, “Close more deals in the next 28 days, or we'll give you your money back.” Just dead simple. No complexity. If you sign up, if you do the training and you run through it, and you're not closing more deals, then money back, just instant. And the number of people who signed up in that webinar, it was insane. You could see in the chat, and I'm answering questions. We have our assistant in the studio with me, as we're doing these webinars, throwing questions in my direction.
Will Barron:
People were genuinely more excited than our previous offer, which is the same product, a very similar offer, but we just word this slightly differently. The guarantee has always been there, we just put it front and centre. And there's enterprise. We closed a couple of larger clients from that as well, multiple seat deals, as opposed to just individuals. And it was just from doing, as you've outlined here, Tom, of understanding that people's priorities are back and forth and all over the place at the moment. So obviously our offer just hit the right priority at the right time. Understanding that there's the business or technology risks, the whole premise of our product. I don't want to talk about it too much. I don't want to plug it on the show. But the whole premise of the product is dead simple. It just works. Everything's a framework. Everything's outlined for you. You can't really go wrong with it. And the trust elements and the budget element of it as well.
Tom Lists Down Books that Simplify The Value Creation Process and Influence Consumer Psychology · [26:13]
Will Barron:
So it just seemed to work perfectly. Now, this is a skill, simplifying things I've worked really, really hard on in the past 12 months. I've read tonnes of really crap books on it. I'm reading loads of content on learning design and how to teach at the moment to kind of separate myself from other trainers and content creators. I really want stuff to stick, as opposed to you're just sharing five ways to cold call someone and crappy content like that. But I've not found a solution for myself, so I'm intrigued get it from yourself. Tom, are there any books, resources; is it just experience? How do we learn to simplify in business and create value propositions where we do a lot of what we're describing here upfront so that the buyer can tell us whether we're on the right tracks or not?
Tom Pisello:
Yeah. I think there's a couple of books that you can use as a reference. First of all, Evolve Selling, which is my book. I will send you a link that I'm happy for you to share with your listeners, a free ebook, a copy of the full book, but just e-access only. And would love for you to share that with folks. And that goes through the way to use neuroscience and Aristotle and storytelling to really connect with buyers on emotion, logic, and trust. What Aristotle used to call pathos, logos, and ethos, goes through some of the Socratic questioning we mentioned. So it's a really good primer to kind of go the next step if you like the content we talked about on that. But two other really important books from other authors that I'd like to recommend. One deals completely with trust and the importance with trust nowaday, and a great interview as well.
Tom Pisello:
Todd Caponi with a book called The Transparency Sale. Absolutely love this book, took many elements away from it, even though I'm schooled at trust, and Aristotle, and the neuroscience behind it. He had some really great practical advice and techniques to apply to negotiating and other elements. “Embrace your flawsomeness,” is something that he talks about, and I definitely borrowed it for this. And then another one where I mentioned the research is a book that you wouldn't think is that good, called Virtual Selling. And why I say you wouldn't think it's good is like, “Man, it's opportunistic that these guys have a book called Virtual Selling, when virtual selling is all we're doing, right?” However, the book is fantastic, and it's by the Rain Group.
Tom Pisello:
Dave Shaby, a couple of other folks from the Rain Group came together and created the book called Virtual Selling. And it goes well beyond a simple guide of what you would think. But you really have to rethink some of these key capabilities that you've learned to implement, like listening skills. You have to really reimagine them in this world of virtual selling, and they go through the science behind it, as well as so many practical tips that I think would help, whether it be in the value of communication piece or the listening piece discovery, whatever it may be. I think that is another book that I highly recommend. Virtual Selling from Shaby and the rest of the group over at the Rain Group.
Tom Explains Why Salespeople Should Present Solutions Quickly and Guarantee Value During Virtual Selling · [29:15]
Will Barron:
Awesome stuff. We've had Todd on the show, and we've had the Rain Group on the show, so I'll link to those episodes in the show notes of this episode. And I will link to the books in the show notes of this episode over at salesman.org as well. With that, Tom, so we were covering a lot of, it's not common- It's common sense, but it's not commonly done, which is an issue, right? Let's flip this on its head slightly. We'll wrap up the show with this, Tom. What's the one most counter-intuitive thing that salespeople should doing right now that their perhaps not doing? Is there anything that, clearly you're up to date with all the research on this, is there anything that you think, “Oh, I'd have never thought of that,” but in hindsight makes total sense that salespeople should be doing that the perhaps not doing right now?
Tom Pisello:
Yeah. Here's the one thing that I think trip up a lot of folks nowadays. When customers get on these virtual calls, they're wanting to see solutions very quickly because they've done a lot of research on their own. And so they're calling up and they're scheduling demos. They're asking for demos. They don't want long presentations. They don't want a lot of questions. And so I think what's tripping up a lot of salespeople is, they hear that and they go into a hundred percent demo mode. Now, if a customer is asking for something, you kind of have to deliver it. But you have to pivot your demos from a big show and tell of everything that you can do. And why does it have to be everything you do because you don't know what they want, right? You haven't done a lot of discovery cause they're wanting a demo right away, and they're not giving you that time.
Tom Pisello:
You almost have to change it to be interactive, a very interactive discovery. So you're doing your discovery, and you're doing a lot of your challenge analysis, and probing, and dyscratic questions you need to ask as part of show and tell. So it's a little bit of give and take that you have to do nowadays that I think trip up a lot of sellers.
Tom Pisello:
The other thing I find is that buyers are coming in saying, “Here's the drug that I want you to prescribe to me,” as if they went to a doctor and said that same thing. And a good doctor will say, “Okay, I can definitely write that script. And here's what it does.” So if they spend a little bit of time acknowledging that what the buyer said and listening to them, that that's what they want. But then they take a few steps back somewhere in that process, and they say, “Well, I really want to make sure this is right for you. Can we spend a little bit of time talking about your ailments? Do you think maybe we could run this health check on you?” So you have to get out of this mode of just delivering exactly what they want to know that there's probably a misdiagnosis, a mis-framing, a better solution that might be in play, and certainly positioning that you need to do to be different, other than this show up and throw up kind of demo environment that I see a lot of sellers unfortunately fall into.
How Zoom Whiteboards Make Virtual Demos So Much Better · [32:10]
Will Barron:
Most demos, they suck, they're terrible. I'm consulting with a SAAS organisation now. I won't say who they are because they might not like me showing what's going on behind the scenes, but the audience will know exactly who it is cause it's one of our big partners. And one thing that I'm getting a couple of the sales teams to do right now and experiment with is on the Zoom demos, Zoom has a whiteboard built into it, at the beginning of the demo, ask the buyer or the potential customer, what they want to be shown. And frame it up as, “Hey, this is customised for you. I don't want to waste your time. I want this to be totally seamless.” Then writing out on the whiteboard, whether they're the using a pen or they're just typing it on there, the two or three main things that the buyer wants to see from the demo itself.
Will Barron:
And then asking why a few times, “Why is this important to you? What's this going to change?” Go through the ,usual sales questions and then framing it up and doing almost a micro close at that point of, “Hey, if I can show you these three or four things, do you think this is something that you would like to move forward with? Would it make sense to move forward with this?” And the demos went from, I don't have real data on this, so I don't want to- We've got real data, I don't have the numbers in front of me. But the demo time has shrunk massively from 40-odd minute demos to some just four, five minute demos because buyers are coming in, as you'd said, that buyers are so much further down the buying cycle, they've done all this research.
Will Barron:
They probably watch tonnes of videos, especially on this product that I'm consulting on now, they've watched loads of YouTube content on it already, cause they're killing it on YouTube. They know the jist, they've just got a few things. And when you start to point out those few small things to them and get them to assert themselves, “Hey, if you show me these things, does it make sense to move forward with this?”, they're having incredible results just on the back of that, just from using a bit of strategy and a whiteboard, which we might have used 30 years ago in the conference room when we walked in and did these in person.
Tom Pisello:
Yeah. We wouldn't think of not using that whiteboard or using a some of the, “Here's what we understand about you,” kind of agreement. But a lot of times I just see that being thrown away or for the demos you do that. And it's just almost like perfunctory, and you go and still do the same old demos that you do before. But I found the better alignment you can have to what they're trying to solve and the better kind of diagnostics that you can do while you're doing that. Show them certainly what they want, but then make sure you're thinking about companies like you, here's the two other things that they like to see that we've got that you might not have been thinking about. So make sure you're still differentiating yourself with that. I think that's where it really wins because not only are you listening, doing exactly what the buyer wants, but then also adding value to it. And then ultimately, how do you tie all of that back to outcomes, so you can do the justification, another really important element, I think maybe to consider adding to that SAAS customer.
Tom Talks About his Book, Podcast, and the Best Way to Reach Him · [35:04]
Will Barron:
For sure. Perfect. Well with that, Tom, we'll wrap up there, mate. With that, tell us about the book, where we can find it. And I'll share the link that you're going to share with us in the show notes. Tells us about the podcast and anything else you want to plug on the show mate.
Tom Pisello:
Yeah, it's real easy. Evolved Selling, as in Darwin evolved. Evolvedselling.com is where you can find all of the writing and research. You can find tools, interactive tools, so you can assess where you're at in your journey. You can also listen to the podcast and see some great blog and research articles and get a copy of the book Evolved Selling, which is also available on Amazon. And I will definitely share that link so that folks can download a free version for themselves.
Will Barron:
Perfect. I'll just redirect it. We'll do salesman.org/evolve, and then that'll go to your link. That'll make it easy. Cool. All right. With that, Tom, I want to thank you for your insights today. I really enjoyed the conversation. It's good to have- and I'll throw this at you because this is important for the audience as well. It's good to have someone on who knows all this numbers, data, is up-to-date with the research without being prompted by me. It's a real pleasure mate. So just to kind of give yourself a pat on the back for that, I really do appreciate it. The audience do, as well. And with that, Tom, I want to thank you again for joining us on the Salesman Podcast.
How to Improve Self-Esteem in Sales: 12 Techniques to Try | Salesman Podcast
Jul 27, 2022
Sales is hard.
You know it. Your family knows it. And (if you’re lucky) your employer knows it too.
And despite the high potential earnings a successful sales career rakes in, the profession isn’t growing as much as other jobs.
For many, it all has to do with rejection. Rejection is, of course, a given in this industry. And some reps take it more personally than others.
But then there are the standouts.
You know the type—they get rejected just like everyone else, sure, but they’re always quick to bounce back. They’re confident and self-assured, but never cocky. And when they speak to prospects, they’ve got this natural magnetism. This ability to instantly ease skepticism and let buyers know, “Hey, you can trust me on this.”
What’s the secret? Self-esteem.
And with a bit of work, you can cultivate a healthier sense of self-worth by following just a few proven techniques.
In this guide, we’re covering how to improve self-esteem using The Increasing Self-Esteem Framework. Inside, we examine three core pillars to promoting self-confidence while looking at 12 proven techniques you can start using today. We’ll also take a closer look at the best benefits of upping your self-worth on the job.
Let’s dive in.
What Is Self Esteem?
Pride, confidence, self-assurance, dignity—there are many words to describe self-esteem. But what does it all mean?
Simply put, self-esteem is your general sense of self-worth. It’s how much you value your thoughts, emotions, and actions. And it’s influenced by beliefs about yourself as well as the beliefs you think other people hold about you.
Your self-esteem doesn’t just affect your you-focused feelings though. That opinion you hold about your own value permeates through and influences so much more in your life. Self-confidence, whether low or high, affects:
How you interact and connect with others.
Risks you’re willing to take.
Goals you’re driven to make.
Motivation and ambition.
Decision making.
Physical and mental health.
And much, much more.
Ultimately, your self-confidence affects nearly everything in your life because self-esteem is directly connected to how you move through the world.
Having poor self esteem and living your live via a series of negative beliefs can make the challenging and difficult situations that you'll find in a sales role much tougher than they need to be.
Self Esteem Stats
Low self-esteem and a lack of confidence can be devastating professionally. Here are just a few stats to prove it.
Nearly 4 out of 5 women (79%) and more than 3 out of 5 men (62%) experience a lack of confidence in the workplace. (ResumeLab)
Individuals with high self-esteem from blue-collar families earn $7,000 more per year than their less confident peers. In white-collar classes, high self-esteem professionals earn a whopping $28,000 more than their low-confidence peers. (Self-Esteem & Earnings by Francesco Drago)
Nearly all employees think confidence is important for a successful job search (99%), believe they perform better on the job when confident (98%), and feel happier at work when they’re more confident (94%). (Indeed)
Why Is Self Esteem Important for Salespeople Specifically?
Now, self-esteem is integral for a healthy personal life and a successful professional one. That much is clear, and dare I say obvious.
But why is it so critical for salespeople in particular?
And why is knowing how to improve self-esteem a real game-changer for career-minded reps looking to grow?
Well, it turns out there are three reasons in particular:
It makes you rejection proof
Buyers want to spend time with winners
Your confidence rubs off on prospects
More positive relationships with customers and colleagues
Reduction in negative habits
A) Self-Confidence Makes You Rejection-Proof
In the world of sales, you’re bound to get rejected at some point. That’s just the nature of the business.
And in reality, your product isn’t going to be a fit for 9 out of 10 prospects you talk to.
But what defines an effective sales rep isn’t so much how many times they get rejected. Instead, it’s how they respond to that rejection.
Do they lose motivation because of a “no”? Do they lose faith in their proven processes? And do they see that negative response as a judgment on their own abilities and worth as a sales professional?
Or…
Do they let that rejection roll off their back? Do they continue to power through each day? And do they tell themselves, “Hey, it’s just business”?
A healthy amount of self-confidence makes it easier to recover from rejection and get back on the horse.
And given how sales and rejection go hand-in-hand, getting this benefit alone is worth a small fortune in this business.
“If you look at it from the point of where do you get the confidence and the motivation to go out there and to be successful, you have to address the individual's fear of being rejected and failing. And that is a constant. No matter the technology, no matter the age.” – Interview with Samuel D. Osborne, Educator & Author
B) Buyers Want to Spend Time With Winners
There’s no point in denying it—confidence closes deals.
And I don’t mean the overly confident reps. The ones that wear diamond-encrusted watchbands, are quick to name-drop and tell you all about their wins, and promise their product will change your entire life (hint: it won’t).
Instead, buyers are attracted to reps that know what they’re talking about, that are clearly and undeniably smart, savvy, and successful.
They want to know that when they listen to you, their business is bound to grow. And they want to be better off because of your relationship.
Do you know how you communicate that feeling? You guessed it—by demonstrating self-confidence.
C) Your Confidence Rubs Off on Prospects
Trust is obstacle #1 for sales reps.
And as you’ve probably already figured out, buyers are often inherently skeptical of any sales professional or pitch, no matter how good it is.
In fact, a study from HubSpot found that just 3% of people consider salespeople to be trustworthy, beating out only stockbrokers, politicians, care salespeople, and lobbyists.
But when you know how to improve your self-esteem and speak confidently about the product you’re selling, you build trust. You go from being a simple scammer, a snake oil salesman, to an expert your buyers can turn to for valuable information and services.
And the more your buyers trust what you have to say, the more likely they’ll be to close a deal with you. Simple as that.
The Increasing Self Esteem Framework
Now that we’ve covered why growing your self-esteem is so important (especially in sales), let’s dive into the meat of it all—how to be more confident.
There are tons of books, seminars, and courses on the topic. And if you get lucky, you might find one that works for you.
However, the truth of the matter is that growing your self-esteem is hard. For many of us, self-defeating behaviors are ingrained into every thought and emotion we have. They’ve probably even been that way since early childhood.
But when you put in the consistent and concerted effort, you can learn to be more self-confident on the job. You just need to know how to do it.
That’s why I created The Increasing Self-Esteem Framework, built specifically for sales reps. This 3-step framework (and 12 proven practices) is simple. Just:
Increase Your Self Trust
Increase Action Taking
Increase Flexibility
1) Increase Your Self Trust
At the core of the framework is boosting your self-trust.
Self-Trust: Having the mindset that whatever comes your way, you will be able to handle it. Someone with a high degree of self-trust feels safe in relying on their own mental, emotional, and physical abilities to tackle life’s difficulties.
If you can’t trust yourself, others won’t trust you either. And when you lack self-trust, you often feel conflicted—your wants and needs pull you in one direction, and your self-doubt pulls you in the other. Until you can trust your abilities, you’re always going to feel unsure.
A lack of self-trust often doesn’t happen all at once. Instead, it’s a slow degradation caused by consistent self-denial. Maybe your truth was made wrong by family, friends, or society as a whole. Or maybe you’ve just gotten so used to going against what your heart told you because it was more convenient than to listen.
5 Self-Trust Boosting Practices
No matter where your lack of self-trust comes from, there are ways to fix it. And the five self-trust boosting practices below are a fantastic start.
As with anything to do with relationship building (regardless of whether that relationship is with us or with others), boosting trust should be seen as a war of attrition as opposed to a war of annihilation.
In other words, do as many of these practices as often as possible, and let them grow with time. There is no one-size-fits-all, immediately actionable silver bullet that will help you build a bone-deep sense of self-trust overnight.
Do your best to be compassionate and patient with yourself as you cultivate your self-trust. This process will take time. But trust me—it will be worth it.
1. Spend Time With Yourself
Just like any relationship would struggle to thrive if the people in it didn’t have any quality time together, so too must you spend quality time with yourself.
Make time to reconnect with yourself—your thoughts, your feelings, your desires—on a regular basis.
If your schedule is so tightly packed that you don’t have any moments of quiet and solitude, then your self-trust has likely suffered.
Do you go to bed with a racing mind? Thoughts shooting at you from every angle, begging for your attention? Then you might be overdue for some quality ‘me-time.’
The better acquainted you are with yourself, the more you’ll start to recognize yourself as an individual with true value.
2. Make a Self-Like List
While your life’s choices shouldn’t be led by external validation, we all crave validation of some kind. And one form of validation that we often underutilize our own validation.
That’s why making a list of things you like about yourself can be so powerful.
Take out a piece of paper (yes, it has to be something you can physically write on) and get started. Write out at least fifty things. Anything goes—from past experiences and accomplishments to personal qualities, aspects of your relationships, and unique abilities.
It’s challenging to believe that others like us for who we are if we don’t first like ourselves for who we are. So grab the bull by the horns and give yourself the validation that you may, at times, be seeking from others.
3. Take More Risks
One of the best ways we can build self-trust is by regularly challenging ourselves.
Regardless of whether or not we succeed in accomplishing the task, just the mere act of giving ourselves the challenge grows our self-esteem and self-trust. Doing so sends the message that we are someone who is worthy enough to be challenged with difficult things in the first place.
Ask out that attractive person you have a crush on. Initiate that difficult conversation with someone who you have been meaning to clear the air with. Go after that job you want. Push yourself in your physical exercise goals. Move forward in your life and claim what you want.
All of these types of actions build self-trust. You merely have to be willing to accept the challenge and do your best in the face of it.
4. Reward Yourself
When you deprive yourself of rewards, your brain gets hard-wired to not give you the motivation you need to accomplish your goals.
That’s why it’s so important to regularly reward yourself for your accomplishments.
Whether you’re rewarding yourself for one of your goals being achieved or you’re just gifting yourself a reward because you’re a badass who deserves nice things every once in a while, rewarding yourself is a necessary habit to get into.
5. Mark Down Your Achievements
So often our wins (both big and small) get lost in the hustle and bustle of daily life. And so often we forget about everything we’ve accomplished over the past week, month, year, decade.
The more we forget about what we’ve achieved, the less we remember our abilities in the face of adversity. And the less we trust ourselves to overcome new challenges.
That’s why since 2013, I’ve kept a running list of my monthly wins. From professional goals like becoming a best-selling author on Amazon to personal ones like learning how to do a backflip on flat ground, this ever-evolving list is a powerful self-trust booster.
If I’m ever doubting my abilities, I just thumb through these accomplishments and my self-trust is restored.
That’s why I recommend keeping an achievement list for every single one of my students. And it’s why you should start building yours today.
“One of my favorite things that I recommend to my clients is to create a journal. Call it your wins journal. So every time you have a win, small, medium, or large, write it down. Like, “Woohoo, celebrate! Today I talked with John DOE at Google, and he's always super excited about bringing our stuff into his company.” Write that down. So when you do get caught in these anxious moments, go back to your wins journal, like, “Oh yeah, that happened. That was real. Reminding yourself that you are good at what you do. You are enough, you've got this.” – Interview with Michele Molitor, Coach, Hypnotherapist, & Imposter Syndrome Expert
2) Increase Action Taking
One of the core influencers of a healthy self-esteem is your ability to take action.
When you take action, you’re taking control. You’re pushing closer to achieving your goals. You’re influencing the world around you. And you’re building up more and more confidence with each new win.
But taking action doesn’t come naturally. After all, we as humans tend to favor the path of least resistance. What’s going to be easiest for me?
As a result, this skill takes a bit of work to develop.
But once you do develop it, you’ll feel more confident in your abilities. And you’ll know that with some elbow grease and consistent pushing, you can build the life you want.
So, let’s take a look at a few ways to turn yourself into an action-taker.
Fear Is Normal (So Use It)
Most people think that to be brave is to not feel fear. That bravery is simply not feeling afraid, to be fearless.
This is not true.
In reality, being brave is to feel fear…and act anyway. It is to act in spite of fear.
Taking action when there’s no fear doesn’t require any bravery. In circumstances like these, it isn’t hard to take action. Instead, it’s rather easy. After all, what’s holding you back if not fear?
So, if you’re wondering how to take more action in life, the first thing you need to understand is that it’s okay to be afraid.
When you start to feel your heart flutter, your mind fogs up, and your palms begin to sweat, don’t panic. Instead, recognize this as an opportunity to become braver.
And remember that fear is normal. It just depends on what you do with that fear—act on it or succumb to it.
Exercise Your Daily Courage
Courage is like a muscle. If you stop using and training it, it atrophies. Just like a bicep, quad, or calf.
Now, this doesn’t happen overnight, mind you.
But as time passes, it becomes more and more obvious you’ve lost your courage. And by the time you’ve realized what’s happening, you now find yourself succumbing to self-doubt in situations you would have breezed through years ago.
To maintain (and increase) your courage muscle mass, you need to use it. You need to train it every week. And if you make it a habit of avoiding stressful situations, you’re going to become less and less courageous.
Your courage muscle is going to atrophy.
Your comfort zone is going to shrink.
And in the end, you’ll be unable to take action in even the most minor stressful situations.
On the other hand, if you keep training your courage muscle on a daily basis, you’re not only going to maintain it. You’re also going to reinforce it (especially if you make sure to increase the difficulty of your training by increasing the level of required bravery to take action).
Focus on the Consequences of Not Taking Action
Like a lot of people, you probably focus way too much on the negative consequences of your taking action. When it’s time to act, you start to invent all sorts of stories in your head on the premise that you’re going to fail.
Not only does this lead you to focus on destructive thoughts which are going to make you feel less able to succeed. But it also keeps you from taking action by making you afraid—more afraid than you were at the beginning.
You’re so afraid of the consequences that you might suffer by taking action that you don’t make a move at all. And that means you miss out on the benefits of acting.
Now, if you want to focus on negative consequences, there’s a better way…
Instead, start focusing on the negative consequences of NOT taking action rather than on the negative consequences of taking action:
The regrets of having done nothing
The shame
The disappointment in yourself and your abilities
By focusing on what you’re going to feel if you DON’T take action, you’re going to feel a strong and compelling urge to make your move.
Build Your Self-Image
We tend to live up to the identities we create for ourselves.
The self-proclaimed strategists ponder their moves before striking. The person who introduces themselves as an avid swimmer sticks to their daily laps. And the entrepreneur who can’t talk enough about their businesses will risk it all to see them succeed.
We become what we see ourselves as.
And when you see yourself as an action taker, you tend to start instinctively responding to situations as one.
This will become natural the more you act in response to challenges.
But you can get started by shifting your own perception of yourself from a problem avoider to an action taker. Start seeing challenges as opportunities. And if you find yourself thinking about ways to get out of difficult situations, tell yourself, “That’s not what I do now. I take action!”
The more you do it, the easier it gets.
“Success isn't about working harder, because people go, ‘I’ve got to work harder.’ It's not about that. It's about doing the consistent action on a daily basis.” – Interview with Marx Acosta-Rubio, Business & Lifestyle Strategist
3) Increase Flexibility
“If you want to make God laugh, tell him about your plans.” – Woody Allen
Life is unpredictable. And more often than not, a plan (no matter how perfect) will fall apart when the time comes to execute. Everyone makes mistakes. And your environment is constantly changing, especially in sales.
But when you can increase your ability to be flexible to the inevitable issues that will crop up in life, you reduce your chances of being affected by them. And in fact, you can even benefit from those issues if you’re particularly clever with your pivoting.
Whether it’s starting a new job, taking a new class, or getting married, being cognitively flexible helps us to grow and get along better with others.
The Biological Basis of Inflexibility
An area of the brain called the anterior cingulate gyrus (ACG) tends to be overactive in people who have difficulty with cognitive flexibility. Located in the front part of the brain, the ACG is involved with shifting attention.
When the ACG works well, it allows us to focus on something, let go, and then shift to focus on something else. However, when it’s overactive, there is a tendency for people to get stuck.
This is what happens when we become cognitively inflexible—we start down one path mentally and then refuse to change direction.
The good news is that there are some simple strategies you can incorporate into your life to help you become more flexible and adjust more easily to change.
3 Techniques for Becoming More Cognitively Flexible
So, how can you improve self-esteem by boosting cognitive flexibility?
Below are three techniques in particular that’ll help you get better at going with the flow and adapting to tricky situations.
1. Practice “Thought Stopping”
An important part of gaining control over your repetitive thoughts is to become mindful of them when they occur—and then practice the simple technique of thought stopping.
To pull this off, try envisioning a red stop sign when you identify any destructive thoughts. And imagine saying to yourself: STOP!
The more you practice this, the more you’ll start feeling control over these thoughts.
You can also use a more physical approach by putting a rubber band on your wrist and snapping it when you catch yourself in a loop of negative thinking.
No matter which technique works best for you, the important thing is stopping those thoughts dead in their tracks. Before they can do any more damage.
“The more mentally fit you are, the faster you are able to actually go from what's a very natural human response to challenge and stress, and be able to shift out of it and get to a positive, more clear, calm, laser-focused, discerning perspective on everything.” – Interview with Adam McGraw, CRO at Positive Intelligence Inc.
2. Document Your Options & Solutions
One of the best methods I’ve found for dealing with negative thoughts and boosting flexibility is writing things down.
When thoughts are floating around in our heads, they’re abstract. They’re like shapeless, undefined blobs.
But when we put them down on paper, they become concrete. And that helps us look at them more rationally, decide if they’re valid, and choose whether or not to act on them.
Try writing down:
The thought that’s stuck in your head.
What you can do to help offset the thought.
Things you have no control over with regard to the thought.
When everything’s all down on paper, you’ll likely be surprised at how different things look compared to when it was just in your head.
3. Think Before a Knee-Jerk “No”
Some people have the tendency to say “no” automatically—even before thinking about what was asked of them. This can be especially problematic in relationships. It is limiting and unnecessary to always dismiss ideas or deny your partner his or her requests.
It’s a nasty habit that, when gone unchecked, can easily leech over to your professional life and sabotage working relationships (and career prospects).
To help with this, before responding to a question, take a deep breath. Hold it for three seconds and then take five seconds to exhale. And while you do so, actually consider what the best way to respond would be.
Sometimes a quick break from automatic responses is enough to drive serious change and promote more cognitive flexibility in life.
Wrapping Up
In my experience, there are three things that determine your success in sales. First, having a product or service you truly believe in. Second, focusing on providing value, not just making a sale. And third, having the self-esteem to sell confidently, competently, and consistently.
With a healthy self-confidence, you’ll be able to push through rejection, attract more buyers, and build trust quicker than ever.
And if you know how to improve self-esteem using The Increasing Self-Esteem Framework, becoming a confident sales rep is a snap.
Just work on:
Increasing Your Self Trust
Increasing Action Taking
Increasing Flexibility
Changing your views on yourself and the world around you doesn’t happen overnight. But if you put in the work to use the techniques in this framework as much as you can, you’ll find yourself becoming more confident every day.
And a year from now, you’ll look back with amazement at how far you’ve come.
How To Sell Yourself In a Job Interview | Selling Made Simple
Jul 25, 2022
You just can’t compare regular job interviews to sales job interviews. Because in sales, it’s way harder to get a measure on your skills from just one conversation.
So if you want to nail that interview, you’ve got to show up READY to demonstrate what you can do. Here’s how.
Why Sales Interviews Are Different
Why are sales interviews different?
What makes it so tough for…
Employers to find sales professionals who are actually worth hiring and…
Sales professionals to prove they’ve got the right stuff?
It all comes down to this—sales skills are damn tough to verify.
On the one hand, if you don’t have a verified background in the business, employers can’t look at your experience to see if you’re any good.
And if you’re a veteran, who knows if your CV is true to life? Sure, employers can call your old bosses. But most companies are scared of saying anything negative in referrals these days. They might even be legally barred from it.
3 Steps to Demonstrating Your Skills
Because you’re an unknown either way, you need to demonstrate your skills in the interview itself.
And there are three fool-proof ways to do that. Number one…
1. A 30/60/90 Day Plan
Three core benefits here:
It shows you’re serious and you’re capable of self-management.
It creates a clear focus for your first 90 days on the job, which should lead to greater productivity.
And it ensures your goals are properly aligned with the organization.
This plan doesn’t have to be super complicated. But it does have to be strategic. And it does have to show you’ve put lots of thought into what it’ll take for you to be successful.
For each section, you need to include 3 to 5 goals, each followed by two essential statements…
To complete this goal, I will – Then outline the steps you’ll need to take to achieve the goal. And two
I will have success if – Pointing out the metrics you’ll measure to determine if you’ve succeeded with that goal.
Don’t worry, this is all easier than it sounds. And if you want to learn more about how to create your 30/60/90 day plan, I’ve created a whole video on the topic that we’ve linked to at the end of this guide.
For now, let’s move on to the next way to nail your interview…
2. Handling Objections Like a Pro
If the hiring manager knows what they’re doing, they’ll put you under a little pressure over something to see how you handle it. Maybe they’ll ask about a gap in your work history.
The point here is to see how you respond to pushback. Because as any rep knows, there are always going to be buyer objections. What matters is how you solve those objections.
That’s where the Objection Handling Framework comes in…
1. Listen to the Issue
Step 1, listen to the issue. This one might be the most important. Because before you can solve any objection, you need to be sure you understand it.
So shut up and listen.
2. Repeat It Back
Step 2, repeat it back. This will show the hiring manager that you’ve truly heard what they said and aren’t just regurgitating some pre-planned answer.
3. Solve the Issue
Solve the issue. If it’s a work history gap, clearly explain the gap—maybe you were focusing on building your skills, earning a new degree, or looking for the RIGHT job. No matter what your answer is, be sure it hits the key points the hiring manager asked about.
4. Confirm It’s Solved
And finally, confirm it’s solved. Otherwise, your response was all for nothing.
Now, there’s a lot more to objection handling than we’ve covered here. So be sure to check out the full video on the subject that we’ve linked to at the end of this guide.
3. Killing It With Closing
Closing is one of the most important sales skills you can have. If you don’t know how to ask for the sale, you’ll never get it, simple as that.
So now it’s time to show the hiring manager you’ve got what it takes to close. How? By closing on the job.
Use the Closing Framework here…
1. “Does it make sense to…”
One, ask the magic question, “Does it make sense to connect on Monday if I’m a good fit?”
This question is great because it shows you’re interested, you’re assertive, and you know what it takes to close. But beyond that, it also identifies any issues holding the hiring manager back.
For example, if they say no, you can follow up with step #2…
2. “What do we need to move forward?”
“What do we need to move forward?” At this stage, you can clearly identify any roadblocks or outstanding questions that are holding you back from securing the job.
Need more clarification on work history gaps? No problem, let’s talk about it.
Still unclear about what my responsibilities were at my last employer? Let’s dive into it.
With this system, you’re showing you’re a closer. And you’re showing you’re ready to tackle any obstacles head-on. And that’s exactly what a hiring manager wants to see.
This Book Will Help You Sell Through The Recession | Selling Made Simple
Jul 21, 2022
Like it or not, experts agree there’s a recession looming on the horizon. And the sales professionals that know how to tweak their strategy accordingly are the ones that will survive, even thrive over the next few years.
Here’s how to do it.
Today we’re talking about concepts covered in the amazing sales book The Challenger Sale by Matthew Dixon and Brent Adamson of the business advisory firm CEB.
The Last Recession
The last recession of 2008 and 2009. If you were working in the industry at the time, you probably remember how hard it was on sales professionals. Clients jumped ship, prospects were unresponsive and had a death grip on their budgets. And old tried and true strategies just didn’t bring in the same results.
And yet, some reps were still able to succeed despite it all.
Dixon and Adamson’s business advisory firm CEB surveyed thousands of sales reps from around the world during this period. And they found that those who did succeed had one thing in common…
They pushed customers to think and act differently.
Building relationships still mattered of course. But what was even more impactful was a rep’s ability to challenge the customer, push back, and take control of the sales conversation.
And if you want in on that same success during a recession, here’s what you need to do…
The 6-Step Push Back Method
It all starts with the 6-Step Push Back Method.
With a recession, times are tight. Everything is tight. And more than ever buyers want new ways to solve problems, not easy ways to get rid of their cash. For you, that means you’ll have to push a little harder when you know you can help a prospect in a way that’s different to what they want right now.
You have a unique perspective on the customer’s business and communication ability. So it’s up to you to push back and teach prospects about the issue they’re facing.
Your solution might not be the solution they’re looking for. But with a bit of education, they’ll realize it’s the solution they actually need.
Okay, so how do you push back and teach?
1. The Warm-Up
Step one is The Warm-Up. This is where you present your assessment of the key issues facing the customer. And you’ll use past clients and other prospects you’ve been working with as inspiration here.
Let them know what you’ve seen with other similar companies. And then, wait for their reaction.
2. Reframing
After that we move to reframing. This is where you’ll offer a unique insight about their problem that connects it to a bigger, more substantial problem or opportunity. For instance, a prospect may be looking for a project management tool since their accounting department can never hit deadlines. But if you’re selling an accounting automation program, you might reframe the problem as a software problem, not a time management problem.
3. Rational Drowning
Step three is rational drowning. This is where you present the data that builds the case for why your prospect should consider your reframing. How much have other companies you’ve worked with increased their efficiency with your product?
The goal is to make the prospect uncomfortable with their current approach and more open to a new one.
4. Emotional Impact
Next is emotional impact. This step is about connecting the prospect’s emotions with the problem. Storytelling is a fantastic way to do just that. And in the Selling Made Simple Academy, we’ve got a whole framework dedicated specifically to storytelling. We’ve even done a video on the technique which you can find at the end of this guide.
After you’ve connected emotionally, it’s time to show them…
5. A New Way
A new way. Talk about the capabilities your customer needs in order to solve this new, reframed problem. Here we’re selling them on the new solution. They have to accept that before we can move on to selling…
6. Your Solution
Your solution. This is the final step. And it’s where you’re demonstrating that your solution is the right solution. If you’ve succeeded in each of the five steps up until this point, this final one should be a breeze.
So there you have it, the 6-step push back method for selling in a recession.
Now there’s one other thing you can do to maximize your selling success during a recession. And that’s…
Taking Control
Everyone’s priorities are bound to be scattered during this time. And that means nobody will commit to anything because they’re going to feel like it’s one disaster after another hitting their company.
If you don’t learn how to take control of the sales process and guide them through it, you’ll be forgotten about for the next latest issue that needs solving.
For example, say your prospect brings up the all-too-common issue of price.
“Times are tough, budgets are tight. Can you offer a 10% discount?” We’ve all heard it before. But during a recession, you’re going to hear it a lot more.
Now one way to deal with this situation is to give in to the conversation. Indulge them, talk to the manager, and see if a discount will work on your end.
But what The Challenger Sale’s research found is that the type of rep that thrives during a recession is the one that stands firm when the customer pushes back. Rather than letting the customer guide the conversation into discount territory, they shift. They refocus the conversation on the value of the offering, not the price.
When you take control of the conversation, you are in a better position to teach prospects about the problem, educate them on the value of your product, and eventually close the sale.
So stand firm, no matter how tempted you may be to give in!
Summary
No one likes a recession.
But with a bit of tweaking to your strategy, you can come out unscathed and perhaps even better off than you were before!
LinkedIn Lead Generation: Cold Email Has Nothing On This | Selling Made Simple
Jul 06, 2022
As your quarterly deadline creeps ever closer, you begin to have a terrible revelation—you just aren’t going to make it. Not this time.
But… why?
You haven’t changed a single thing about your sales process. Your cadences are as tight as ever. And your schedule’s already jampacked with cold calling and cold emailing.
So, what are you doing wrong?
These days, many B2B salespeople find themselves falling behind due to a lack of “social selling”—incorporating relationship building into the sales process. And today, a staggering majority of social selling happens in one place: LinkedIn.
This guide shows you how to effectively incorporate LinkedIn lead generation into your routine. Inside you’ll learn the three-part framework you need to use LinkedIn’s potential to its fullest. And with it, you can build a steady and robust pipeline of quality, qualified leads.
Best of all, once you get going, the system practically runs itself.
Now let’s jump in.
The What & Why of LinkedIn
If you’re a professional, well, anything then you probably know what LinkedIn is—a social media platform with a twist.
Unlike other platforms, the focus is on business. You won’t find piano cats, baby pictures, or “Charlie bit me” videos here. Instead, it’s all about connecting with other professionals, learning business-related tips for success, and growing your career.
And as a well-informed salesperson, you can use LinkedIn as a powerful source of leads.
As author and sales professional Marcus Sheridan put it in our interview:
“As a salesperson, a sales professional, go all-in on LinkedIn. I've watched salespeople's careers and therefore wallets and bank accounts explode because of the way they use LinkedIn.”
But why? What makes LinkedIn lead gen so powerful?
There are four reasons in particular:
It’s huge
It’s trusted
It’s scalable
It “builds trust at scale”
Let’s take a closer look at what I mean by each.
It’s Huge
On the one hand, LinkedIn is a mammoth social media platform. And it’s bigger than most people expect.
Sure, sure. Facebook and Instagram and the like are bigger. But LinkedIn still has nearly 800 million members across the globe. Plus, there are millions of businesses with public profiles.
Beyond that, the wealth of information you can glean from these profiles is huge too. Past positions and experiences, shared professional connections, branding elements—the list goes on.
The benefit here is that there are plenty of opportunities for B2B salespeople on the platform. For example, the enterprising salesperson can use LinkedIn to:
Learn about new businesses that have recently entered their industry.
Research competitors and their content marketing strategies.
Become better acquainted with potential leads.
Discover talking points you can use during sales meetings.
Ultimately, LinkedIn is big and growing. And the info on it is massive.
The Numbers
Wondering just how huge LinkedIn is? Check out some of the stats below to get a better idea.
LinkedIn has nearly 800 million members in 200 countries and regions worldwide (LinkedIn).
LinkedIn has 33 offices, is available in 24 languages, and has 16,000 employees (LinkedIn)
More than 57 million companies are listed on LinkedIn, as well as 120,000 schools (LinkedIn).
Seventy-seven job applications are submitted via LinkedIn every single second (LinkedIn).
It’s Trusted
It’s one thing to have access to a massive database of users. It’s another entirely when those users truly trust the content they find on that platform.
A lot of that trust comes from the professional aspect of LinkedIn. These are businesspeople interacting with each other—not shiesty scam artists trying to rope new members into their multilevel marketing “opportunity.”
It’s also a trusted source of information. Most of the content here is being put out by real professionals with real experience in what they’re talking about.
And with that lowered trust barrier, it’s a fantastic place for B2B marketers to engage in content marketing and social marketing.
The Numbers
B2B marketers and businesses love LinkedIn. And here are some numbers to prove it.
An astounding 94% of B2B content marketing happens on LinkedIn (Road Warrior Creative).
LinkedIn ranks highest in digital trust among all social media platforms (eMarketer).
There are more than 10,000 B2B software Product Pages on LinkedIn (LinkedIn).
It’s true—LinkedIn lead generation can be a slow and frustrating process if you don’t know what you’re doing. And if you aren’t putting in the consistent, strategic work, you’re bound to be frustrated.
But when done correctly, it becomes an impressive source of quality leads that rival (and exceed) cold calling and cold emailing.
Best of all, once you get going, you don’t have to go out looking for leads—they’ll end up coming to you.
The more authority you build, the more likely buyers will be to search you out. To want to work with you.
The Numbers
Conversations on LinkedIn and the amount of content available are all seeing a sharp increase. And for you, that means more opportunities to provide rich insights, demonstrate your authority, and connect with buyers.
Below are just a few stats to show how much LinkedIn is poised to grow for B2B marketing.
Content creation on LinkedIn increased by an impressive 60% in 2020 (LinkedIn).
LinkedIn saw a 0% year-over-year increase in content creation from March 2019 to March 2020 (LinkedIn).
Live streams on LinkedIn increased by 437% in 2020 (LinkedIn).
It “Builds Trust at Scale”
Piggybacking off that last point, as you scale your LinkedIn B2B lead generation, you’re also making it easier to close sales with the leads that do contact you.
Let me explain.
One of the biggest hurdles salespeople have to overcome is building trust with buyers. You need to establish rapport. You’ve got to prove your worth. And you need to show that you’re there to help, not just sell to them.
When you encounter a cold lead, you accomplish all that through conversations. Conversations that take time.
But when you engage in a thorough LinkedIn lead generation strategy (like the framework in this guide), you’re creating content that does most of that hard work for you.
Plus, that content—if it’s high quality, of course—will also attract industry decision-makers to you. And that means less time spent on all that lead qualification work.
The Numbers
Business is getting done on LinkedIn. That’s because there are so many potential leads and buyers using the platform.
And here are just a few stats to prove it.
There are 65 million decision-makers on LinkedIn (LinkedIn) and 61 million “senior-level influencers on LinkedIn (LinkedIn).
4 out of 5 LinkedIn members drive business decisions (LinkedIn).
About 1 out of 3 B2B decision makers use LinkedIn to research products and solutions before making a purchase decision (Hootsuite).
The LinkedIn Lead Generation Framework (“The Flywheel”)
Alright, alright. LinkedIn’s great for professional B2B salespeople like you.
But how the hell do you use it to generate leads?
Enter The LinkedIn Lead Generation Framework (a.k.a. “The Flywheel”).
This framework is designed to help you connect with buyers while building relationships at scale. With it, you can boost your authority, automatically qualify leads, and build a bustling new pipeline of potential buyers.
There are just three steps to the framework:
Insights
Authority
Outreach
The best thing about this framework is once you get going, the momentum of your work actually keeps the whole system moving on its own (that’s where the “flywheel” part comes in).
More on that in a bit.
Let’s dive a bit deeper into each of these steps.
1. Insights (Spread Your Knowledge)
If you want to start generating leads on LinkedIn, you need to be regularly posting market insights. There’s no way around it.
This is the first step in pushing the LinkedIn algorithmic flywheel to favor you on the platform.
Imagine your success on LinkedIn as a big, heavy flywheel that’s at a standstill. At first you post an insight, and nobody cares. Nobody likes, nobody comments. You might even think it’s a little embarrassing.
But you post again, and you get one like. Then again and a few more.
Eventually, LinkedIn’s algorithm sees the traction, and it shares your content with more people as they perceive you as an authority. And that gets this big heavy flywheel spinning even faster.
The cool thing? Once the flywheel is spinning, it has its own momentum. You can take a week off, and it’s barely slowed down, and the sales leads keep coming in.
But to be clear, it does take time and effort to get that big block of heavy metal spinning in the first place. So be prepared!
Now, how do you get those insights that are actually worth sharing?
There are two types in particular that your audience will find valuable:
Personal Insights
Company Insights
Personal Insights
These are insights that you’ve uncovered about your product, buyer, or marketplace.
Sharing personal insights is a fantastic way to demonstrate your authority and engage with your audience. After all, you know way more about your product than your buyers ever will. So take the time to collect and share the insights you’ve picked up over the years.
A few questions you can ask yourself to start coming up with ideas include:
What common sales objections do you face each day?
What have you seen change in the marketplace in the last 12 months?
What are your buyer’s biggest fears?
If your buyers could change one thing about their job, what would it be?
What do your buyers need to know but not want to hear?
Use these questions as jumping-off points for finding the best insights to share.
Company Insights
Personal insights take a bit of deep thinking and reflection on your part. When it comes to company insights on the other hand, things are actually quite a bit easier. Because instead of picking your own brain, you’re just picking the brains of others.
All you have to do to find a great company insight is shoot a quick email over to your sales manager and marketing manager asking them the following questions:
What do you know about the market that you’re selling into that is unusual or counterintuitive?
What do you know about buyers that buyers don’t even know about themselves?
What shift is happening in the marketplace within the next 6 months that buyers haven’t realized yet?
What positions your product differently from everything else on the market?
That’s it! Their answers are sure to give you a few nuggets of invaluable insight you can share with your audience.
Sharing Your Insights
Now that you’ve got your insights in mind, it’s time to actually send them out into the world.
LinkedIn provides a couple of different ways you can share your insights, including:
Text posts
Video posts
Image posts
Articles
Lives
There are other options too (like polls, stories, celebrations, etc.). But frankly, I’ve found them to be a bit gimmicky without bringing any more value to the table. So best to stick with the methods above that are proven to work.
And don’t forget to be consistent with your posting!
The more consistently and frequently you’re putting up posts with real value, the faster your flywheel will spin.
2. Authority (Prove Your Knowledge)
The next step to the LinkedIn Lead Generation Framework is boosting your authority.
People want to spend their valuable time learning from experts, not nobodies. Experts have the answers they’re looking for. And they’re the ones that can be trusted.
When you spend just a few minutes a day building your authority on LinkedIn, you’re signaling to the algorithm that your insights are worth sharing. They’re the ones your network is going to be interested in. And consequently, the algorithm is going to be more likely to show your content to others.
So, how do you boost your authority?
Build Your LinkedIn Profile
Engage With the Platform
Build Your LinkedIn Profile
This is an essential step that unfortunately gets overlooked. You need to actually create a great and complete profile if you want to start growing your authority.
There are plenty of steps you can take to beef up your LinkedIn profile. I’ve actually done several podcasts on the subject alone.
Author and social selling expert Daniel Disney pointed out in our interview that there are two things in particular you need to tackle first:
“The first two things [visitors] will look at 99% of the time are your profile photo and your LinkedIn banner. And what you want to try and do is plant some seeds.”
Use a clear, high-quality photo and background that gives visitors an idea of what it is you help buyers do.
A few other steps you can take to build a robust profile are:
Get plenty of skill endorsements from other professionals.
Take skill assessments.
Start gathering glowing testimonials.
List your services.
Develop a personal brand and keep it consistent across your profile.
Engage With the Platform
Next up, you should spend about 15 minutes a day engaging with the platform by commenting on content from other experts.
But a simple “Great post!” on everything that comes through your feed just won’t do. You’ve got to be strategic by knowing where to comment and what to comment.
Where to Comment – Look for posts that have a high comment count (better visibility) that are in your industry. You’ll also want to only comment on posts that you understand and are valuable. And finally, if your buyers are asking questions, you need to be the one to answer with an insightful comment.
What to Comment – Don’t every comment without reading the full post. You’ll sound like an idiot. And always add to the conversation (“good job!” doesn’t mean a thing). You’ll also want to continue the conversation by asking more questions. Finally, use the “@” sign before the original poster's name in your comment. That’ll make sure it doesn’t get lost in their sea of notifications.
3. Outreach (Leverage Your Knowledge)
If you’ve been regularly posting valuable insights and engaging with the platform consistently each day, your flywheel should already be spinning and sending your content out to the masses.
Ideally, this will end up with leads reaching out to you. But you don’t want to leave your fate entirely in the hands of the algorithm, do you?
That’s why you need to engage in a bit of outreach to make the most of your LinkedIn lead generation efforts.
There are two ways to start bringing in leads on your own.
Warm Outreach
Cold Outreach
Warm Outreach
Warm outreach is when you leverage your relationship with a prospective buyer to get them onto a phone call with you.
To be clear, these are contacts you’ve already had a conversation with. They may be familiar with what you’re selling. Or maybe you’ve just chatted with them over LinkedIn a handful of times. They might have even worked with a current client of yours.
The important element here is they know you. And they likely already have some degree of trust in you. As a result, the process is surprisingly simple.
If you get into a conversation in the comments of one of your buyer’s posts, message them directly and ask if they would like to set up a 10-minute call to discuss things further.
If a buyer keeps liking your content, message them to see if there’s value in setting up a consulting call where you can help them in real-time.
There’s nothing to it!
Cold Outreach
Cold outreach is a little trickier. Prospects won’t know who you are. They won’t know what you’re selling. And they sure as hell won’t trust you right off the bat.
So, how do you win them over?
There are three rules to follow here:
Be Genuine –People hate it when they’re being placated. And yes, they can tell. Even on LinkedIn. Instead, read up about your buyer. Find something you’re actually interested in (other than closing a deal) to connect over. And be who you really are in each interaction.
Personalize – Generic cookie-cutter messages don’t work. And they can actually be quite annoying. Your messaging needs to be clearly personalized to the buyer. Otherwise, they probably won’t even read it (trust me, I’ve ignored messages myself because of this).
Share Insights – Never ask without giving first. LinkedIn has unlimited great content. You need to proactively give the buyer a reason to want to engage with you before you’ve built a relationship with them. You can share your own content or pass on an interesting article you’ve found from another expert.
How Long Does It Take?
This is a tough one to answer because in the end, everything depends on you.
The more value you offer and the more you engage with the platform, the faster you’ll see your flywheel spinning on its own. But if you put off posting for a month or two while only sharing low-value articles and unoriginal thoughts, it’s going to take a lot longer to get moving.
That being said, I have personally witnessed salespeople use this method to grow their LinkedIn followers by hundreds (or even 1,000s) in a matter of months.
Generating enough momentum to start having buyers reach out to you may take a bit longer. But even still, if you stick with the framework, you’ll have a healthy pool of prospects you can quickly and easily connect with to start the sales process.
LinkedIn Lead Generation Software: Should You Use It?
This can be a toss-up.
For some businesses and industries, automating your LinkedIn lead generation messaging makes sense. Especially since HubSpot estimates automating your social media efforts can save on average more than 6 hours per week.
That being said, there are some parts of your LinkedIn sales cadences where automation can actually hurt your numbers.
Most conversations, for example, should not be automated. Most outreach messages should not be automated. And most human-to-human interactions (in the digital space) should not be automated.
“When it comes to either adding people or even messaging, if you’re automating or getting a bot to do that, people see through it, they see through it straight away, and you’re going to decrease the amount of accepted connections you get certainly decrease the replies you get.”
Bots are great for some things. But they aren’t that great at parsing through the colloquialisms, intricacies, and complexities of human conversation.
Worst of all, using outreach automation tools on LinkedIn (i.e., tools that sound out hundreds of connection requests a day automatically, etc.) can get your account banned.
Final word—just not worth it.
But one thing bots are good at is automating admin tasks. Tasks like:
Content scheduling
Update scheduling
Interaction analytics
Recommended LinkedIn Lead Generation Software
Now, if you decide to automate your LinkedIn lead generation efforts, stick with content scheduling software only. There are a few solutions I recommend to get you started.
Below you’ll find the best of the best, along with a short description of what you can do with each.
LinkedIn Sales Navigator – Sales nav is almost a standard requirement for sales professionals who are sending personalized messages to key decision makers on the platform. See who is visiting yout profile, send InMail and make sure you're in front of the right audience for a couple of bucks a month.
Hootsuite – A go-to choice for post automation, Hootsuite provides plenty of features you’ll likely love. Users can schedule posts ahead of time, tweak wording across social media platforms, let Hootsuite choose the best posting times, and much more.
Buffer – Another great option for post automation, Buffer offers a cleaner user experience at the expense of all the bells and whistles of Hootsuite. It’s also better for smaller teams as opposed to organizations. It’s also a bit cheaper too.
HubSpot – We all know HubSpot. This feature-rich customer relationship management (CRM) software lets you track and analyze engagement with your prospects. But it also comes with a handy post-scheduling functionality too. What’s not to love with this thing?
Wrapping Up
LinkedIn B2B lead generation can end up being a goldmine for bringing qualified and eager buyers into your pipeline. This business-based social network is professional, highly trusted, and only poised to grow as more business gets done online.
The only trick is, you have to approach your LinkedIn lead generation with a strategic eye if you want qualified leads. Spamming content is a timewaster. Inauthenticity is a turnoff. And in a world of bots, bluffs, and bullshit artists, only those who offer true value to prospects are going to truly succeed here.
With my LinkedIn Lead Generation Framework (“The Flywheel”), you can start consistently revving up your presence on this powerful platform. It just takes consistency, genuineness, and a bit of elbow grease.
It's the easiest and most effective of all the lead generation strategies on the platform because it leads into what the platform is already encouraging you to do.
And best of all, once that flywheel starts moving, the sky’s the limit for your LinkedIn lead generation—and your earning potential.
This Graph Changed My Sales Career | Selling Made Simple
Jun 29, 2022
When’s the last time your life changed because of a single picture? Well I can tell you I started closing bigger deals, closing them more often, and earning way more commission—all because of this one graph *show on screen*. And today, I’m showing you how it can change your life too.
One of the biggest issues we as humans have is understanding time. Don’t get me wrong here—we’ve gotten really good at thinking ahead, learning from the past, and evaluating cause and effect. Hell, it’s why we humans are so damn good at surviving and expanding.
But even still, we have a hard time connecting the actions we take today with the results we see way in the future. Today / Future And this can be especially problematic for actions that snowball. That have effects that grow over time.
And unfortunately, that disconnect is at the heart of why most salespeople fail to achieve real success.
That’s why today we’re talking about the graph that helped me shift out of that path to failure and into my success today.
1. The Graph
As you can see, this graph is all about…
Memory, Effect, & Time
Can you see memory, results, and how the two change over time. Once you perform an action, be it cold prospecting or starting to create content, it’s fresh in your brain. And as time moves on, it drifts out of your consciousness. You forget about it.
But the effect of that action actually increases over time. The problem here is that since memory fades, we tend to forget what caused the effects we’re seeing. We forget that we are where we are today precisely because of the actions we took 6 months, 5 years, and even 10 years ago.
So for example, we get immediate mouth pleasure after eating fast food. The greasy burger. The salty fries. The refreshing soft drink. It’s delicious stuff! And we understand that.
But what we struggle to comprehend is that eating that fast food every day eventually makes us fat. We find excuses to hit the drive-through during the week. We tell ourselves, “Oh, we’ve had a rough day, one cheat meal couldn’t hurt.”
But all the while, we’re failing to see that these little “cheats” add up to a larger pattern. And before we know it, we’re 10lbs overweight wondering, “what happened?”
Tying It To Sales
To tie it back to sales, we’re skipping our prospecting. We’re telling ourselves, “Oh I’ll build up my social selling content later.” And all the while, we’re continually chipping away at the potential success our future holds.
What we need to be doing is doing the things now that will improve our lives in 6 months from now.
The longer term you can think, act, and stay on track, the more successful you’ll be.
An Example
I’ve got an example for you. Sam the salesman starts investing starting at 30. He puts a thousand bucks in every few months whenever he’s got some extra dough. And on the down months, he doesn’t contribute a cent. At the ripe old age of 65, he’s looking at a somewhat decent retirement fund.
On the other hand, there’s Seth the salesman. He starts putting money in at 30 too. And he puts money into all the same investments as Sam. But instead of doing it sporadically, he contributes the same percentage of his earnings every single month. And thanks to compounding interest, those investments pay off. By retirement age, he’s looking at multimillions—far more than Sam.
The key, then, is consistency. It’s developing a plan and sticking with it. And the more you can maintain that consistency, the better the results.
Now, it’s important to realize that it isn’t just direct consequences that play a role either. There’s also…
2. Second Order Consequences
Second order consequences to consider. These are the snowball effects. The consequences that lead to more consequences.
For example, let’s say you buy a big TV rather than investing the cash. No big deal right? Sure you miss out on more investment income later on. But what’s the big deal.
Well, there’s also the second order consequences to consider. With that giant TV in your living room, you guilt yourself into using the big slab of glass on the wall. I mean, you paid good money for it after all. So you end up getting sucked into stupid shows and spending hour after hour on bad reality TV and cooking competitions. When instead, you could have been reading those self-improvement books you always said you’d get to.
The Snowball Continues
But we’re not done yet. Eventually you start getting into the third order consequences. At some point, that bad television starts to get boring and you need more excitement. So you buy an Xbox to go alongside the TV. And even more of your time is sucked up and taken away from investing in your future.
As you can see, on a five-year scale, the divergence of buying the TV vs not buying the TV is massive.
And a single choice today can lead to a multitude of consequences down the line.
3. Putting It Into Action
Putting it all into action. What does this mean for you today? Well let me take a second to turn things around and tell you how this realization changed me.
As soon as I understood all this, the long-term cause and effect of it all, my life changed in an instant. The success I’m having with Salesman.org now—training thousands of salespeople, creating a 7-figure business, all of it—came about from work I did 3 years ago.
And just as importantly, the hard work I’m putting in right now, today, will set the foundation for my success 5 years from now.
What Does That Mean For You?
The boring, pain-staking grind of cold prospecting you do today is what leads you to crushing your quota 4 months from now. And the cash from those commissions is going to give you freedom. The freedom you need to take your life in a completely different direction than if you didn’t hit your numbers.
It may not feel like the grind you’re going through now has any real effect. And in all likelihood, it won’t today. It probably won’t even tomorrow.
But over time, the effect of what you do today grows and grows. And five years from now, the choice between saying “yes” or “no” to today’s hard work will be life-changing.
You’ve just got to stick with it. Stay consistent. And start thinking long-term.
One Change That Makes Every Sales Person Better | Selling Made Simple
Jun 29, 2022
A few times in life, we come upon a single concept that radically changes the way we interact with the world.
And in sales, there’s one concept in particular that’ll change the way you sell forever—The Law of Averages.
This concept has taken more average salespeople to top 1% than any other. It might be the most important video that I’ve ever produced.
Now, a lot of reps are under the impression that sales is an art. Getting a feel for body language, spotting subtle cues, shifting and re-shifting conversations with prospects.
But where a lot of reps get things wrong is forgetting the logic side of things. Following your cadences, hitting that cold call quota, sticking to a plan through thick and thin—that’s the other side of the equation. And if you neglect your numbers, your art is never going to be enough to propel you to real sales success.
A) Sales Is a Numbers Game
Sales is a numbers game. We’ve heard it all before. And there’s a lot of truth to it. Because when you boil it all down, sales comes down to this:
You do a number of activities.
Those activities can have an effectiveness on a scale of 1-10.
And depending on that effectiveness, they lead to a revenue number at the end of the quarter, and you get paid a commission.
It’s as simple as that.
And the more you do an activity, the higher those final numbers—that revenue and that commission—will be.
More cold calls per day results in more leads. More leads turn into more sales calls. And more sales calls lead to closed deals. Voila, numbers!
Now you can tweak that activity. Or you can choose to engage in a different one altogether. But when you get down to the nitty-gritty, the more numbers you put in, the more you get out.
B) The Law of Averages
The Law of Averages come in? The Law of Averages states that over a long enough period of time, a particular outcome or event will occur at a frequency that’s similar to its probability.
Confused? Don’t be.
Let’s break it down. Let’s say you’ve got a cold calling success rate of about 2%. And over the course of one day, you make 20 calls with zero success. Right now your success rate is… that’s right, zeropercent. Now, over time, your actual rate is going to get closer and closer to the real rate of effectiveness, 2%.
So on day two, you make 20 more calls and one is a winner! That brings your rate up to 2.5%. The next day, zero winners again, bringing you down to 1.7%. And the day after that, zero again, putting you at 1.25%. But after the next 20 calls, you bring in a client, which jumps your success rate to 2%—the real effectiveness of the activity.
See how on the short-term, the effectiveness jumps around and doesn’t match the true effectiveness of your cold calling? But in the long-term, over the course of five days, it comes out to be 2%.
And on an even longer timeline, that activity is going to hover around that same percent effectiveness.
Okay, so what does this tell us?
Basically if you engage in an activity with some level of effectiveness for long enough, you’re guaranteed some form of success. If your cold emails only have a success rate of 0.001%, you’re bound to hit a winner at some point. As long as you keep trying.
Now, you’ve got three ways to make the Law of Averages work for you. First, you can put in more reps. You can send out more emails, make more cold calls, send more outreach messages. But there are only so many hours in the day.
Do different stuff. Social selling for example if you’ve never experimented with that. The problem here is that you might have a 0% success rate and so it was a complete waste of time.
The better way of using this law to your advantage is by moving the average in your favor. By pushing up your success rate and doing the same stuff, but better.
C) Move the Average In Your Favor
There are three strategies you can take to get the numbers on your side. Number one is to…
1. Only Spend Time With Qualified Clients
SO MUCH time is wasted on unqualified prospects that require tons of work but rarely lead to a closed deal.
So, how do you get better at qualifying prospects? You follow the Diagnosis Framework.
Whenever you hop on a discovery call, use this eight-step framework to find out if they’re the right buyer for you.
Pain – Is your prospect’s problem actually a problem? If it isn’t, they aren’t going to be motivated to solve it. And they’re wasting your time.
Time – Does the buyer need a solution this month, this quarter, this year? Be sure your timelines match up. The more urgent the need, the less feet dragging you’ll run into later.
Fit – Is your solution actually right for the prospect’s problem? Be honest, will it really help?
Return – How much will the buyer have to change to accommodate your solution and start getting a solid value return from their investment? Is it worth the hassle?
Process – Are they willing to adapt to your processes? If not, best to cut them loose.
Budget – Are the prospect’s financials in a good place to afford your solution?
Champion – Who else is behind this decision? Is someone influencing whether the deal gets made or not? And if there is, why aren’t you talking to them instead?
Agreement – It’s up to you to get your buyer’s verbal commitment on the call. And using the “If we can solve X, will you commit to Y?” structure is the absolute best way to get that commitment.
2. Move More Prospects Into Your Funnel
The more prospects you have coming into your funnel, the more chance you have of closing some of them. The Cold Email Framework is a great way to improve your cold outreach.
It follow four steps. Lets run through a example and put them into practice –
It’s to the point. It’s unassuming. And it’s damn effective too.
Alright so the third way of making the Law of Averages work for you is by…
3. Have More Targeted Messaging
More targeted messaging means higher response rates. And that, of course, is going to bump up the Law of Averages in your favor.
So, how do you have more targeted messaging? By using the Value Proposition Framework.
Find Your Value – What do your products offer? How do they help? You can figure this out by first listing out all your available products and then writing down the perk producers (benefits additions) and strain reducers (hassle subtractions) each offers.
Find Your Ideal Buyer – This one might take a bit more digging, but it’s well worth it. You start by listing out your buyer jobs. What are their responsibilities? What are their functional, social, and emotional jobs? And then list out the perks and strains of each. Perks being the benefits your buyers want to see from your product, and strains being what annoys a buyer before, during, and after they’re trying to get a job done.
Find the Fit – Finding the fit. “Fit” is how well your product values line up with what the buyer needs. The better it aligns, the more successful your value proposition will be. All you need to do here is determine which jobs, strains, and perks the strain reducers and perk producers of your products address. Match them up and you can move on to…
Create Your Value Statement – A value statement should be clear, to the point, and touch on the most important points from the previous three steps. Here’s a template you can use to craft yours.
Verify the Value – Does this value statement resonate with your audience? Did changing your value proposition increase or decrease buyer response rates? What’s important here is that you keep on testing and refining your value proposition as you go.
When you truly understand the Law of Averages, it’ll entirely change the way you do sales. And if you know how to bend this law to your advantage, you can close more deals, earn higher commissions, and achieve more success than you ever thought possible.
The Best Opening For A Cold Call | Selling Made Simple
Jun 27, 2022
The average length of a successful cold call that ends in a meeting is just 5:14. That’s it!
For unsuccessful ones, it’s around 3:14. But as brief as these encounters usually are, it’s actually the first three seconds that make or break a call.
This video covers the rejection-proof cold call one-liner that’s guaranteed to help you book more calls, all in just three seconds.
Now for most cold callers, even experienced ones like you, the problem isn’t talking about your value proposition. Or convincing prospects to book an official call with you.
Instead, it’s that initial line. That first three seconds. Because a whopping 98% of cold calls end in hangups right off the bat. And if you can get your prospects to listen to you after that, then you’re home free.
But you’ve got to choose your words carefully. You’ve got to pique interest, interrupt their thought pattern, and set expectations. And that’s exactly what this opener is so great at doing.
1. The Opener
The word-for-word opener you can start using right away.
So this one actually comes from my friend, Josh Baun. Josh is an expert when it comes to sales and trains teams on how to beef up their numbers and close more deals.
I actually interviewed him on The Salesman Podcast where he talked about this very opener, which he both uses and teaches to his clients.
So first up, let’s just take a look at the opener, and then we’ll break it down…
Expert Note:
“Hey, Will. My name is Josh. We’ve never spoken before. You have no idea who I am; complete stranger here, but I was hoping you could help me out for a moment. Do you have two minutes?”
Josh Braun
Salesman Podcast
Simple as that. Now, 70 or 80% of the time, you’re going to get a yes. And here’s why…
A) Pattern Interrupt
First, a pattern interrupt. Most sales reps try to come off too familiar so they can start building rapport. But what this opener openly calls out is the fact that the prospect doesn’t know who you are. In fact, you’re a complete stranger!
And that simple tweak lets you stand out from the other cold callers and keep prospects from hanging up. Next…
B) Time Commitment
Time commitment. You’re setting boundaries here. This isn’t going to be an hour-long conversation. It isn’t even going to be 10 minutes. So when they say yes, they know they aren’t getting roped into a major time waster. Who doesn’t have two minutes? Next up…
C) A Favor
A favor. You’re asking for help because people are wired to help others. We WANT to help other people. And in fact, when someone does a favor for you, they’re actually more likely to help you in the future! It’s called the Benjamin Franklin Effect, and it’s an amazing sales tool to add to your toolbelt.
D) Tone
Tone. We’re using a tonality that’s not, “Hey, Will, this is JOSHHHHH! Can YOUUUU help me out for a moment?” You’re calm. Because when you’re calm, you’re less aggressive. You aren’t a threat to run away from. And that makes you more inviting.
Again, this simple opener will keep people on the line with you 70 to 80% of the time. But you’re job’s not done yet. Then you have to move on to…
2. The Follow-Up Steps
Step one kept them on the line. Now we have to move on to steps two and three. These are simple.
See If They’re The Right Person
To see if the prospect is even the right person that you need to be speaking with.
That looks a little something like this…
Expert Note:
“Will, are you still the person that’s involved with getting sponsors for your podcasts? Or is that someone else since you’ve gotten so big?”
Josh Braun
Salesman Podcast
As you can see, this implies that you’ve done a little research—a must for rapport building.
Now, one of two things is going to happen there. You’re either going to get a positive or negative response here. “Yes, I’m in charge of that,” or “No, I’m retired.” And don’t you want to know that at the beginning of the call rather than going all the way through your pitch?
So once you’ve made sure you’re talking to the right person, it’s time for step number 3…
Poke & Peel
The poke and peel. You’re going to be poking around a little bit to see how the prospect is currently getting the job done, and you’re going to peel the onion a little bit.
The exact wording of this last step will of course depend on your industry. But if you were talking about the podcast sponsorship industry like Josh and I were, the poke and peel might look something like this…
Expert Note:
“So Will, how are you currently going about getting sponsors today? Are you like reaching out via cold email? Are people mostly coming to you, or is it a combination of both?”
Josh Braun
Salesman Podcast
Here you’re well into the conversation and things are moving smoothly. Very very few people will full-on reject you at this point in the process since the tone is so calm and conversational. And it’s at this point you can start to gather information, continue to build rapport, and nudge your prospect closer to booking a proper sales call.
3. Psychology
The right psychology. And there are two things in particular I mean by that.
Let Go of Assumptions
You need to let go of assumptions. This is a tough pill to swallow for some reps, but the truth is your product isn’t going to be right for a lot of prospects you talk to. But if you assume everyone is a perfect customer, you’re not only going to push buyers away. You’re also going to waste a lot of time with ones that just aren’t a fit.
Josh put it nicely in our interview:
Expert Note:
“When you assume that everyone’s a fit for what you have, what ends up happening is people go into the zone of resistance because you’re going to try to be talking people into things, and pitching everyone, and thinking that you’re a fit for everyone. So instead, shift away from that and discover if the person has a problem that you could potentially help with, rather than assuming.”
Josh Braun
Salesman Podcast
And the next psychology exercise you can do to get the most out of this opener is…
Get Natural
Get natural. The calmer you are, the calmer the prospect will be. So don’t go full over excited as that screams that you’re a salesperson just trying to get something from the prospect.
Now to do that, you’ve got to put in a little work upfront. You’ve got to practice.
And not just once, two times, or even three times. Nope, you’ve got to practice a lot.
You can start by standing in front of the mirror and repeating the lines until it comes out nice and relaxed. As if you’re chatting with a colleague about how their weekend went. But eventually you’ll want to practice on a real person.
Now you can do that by enlisting the help of some friends or coworkers. OR you can just jump in headfirst and go for real-life prospects. What you choose is up to you.
But remember, the more natural and calm you sound, the better you’re going to fare on your cold calls.
So, cold calling can be tough. But if you nail the first 3 seconds, you’re well on your way to closing.
How I Stopped Procrastinating Over Sales Prospecting | Selling Made Simple
Jun 24, 2022
Want to make it big in sales? Step #1—stop procrastinating. I used to have a huge problem with putting off my tough tasks till later. And my career suffered because of it.
But then I learned how to stop procrastinating for good. And today, I’ve built a 7-figure sales training business, run two YouTube channels, and am now more productive than ever.
How’d I do it? I killed my lizard brain.
The Lizard Brain
What is it? Well, this is the part of your brain that’s leftover from your pre-human ancestors. It’s focused only on the now. It doesn’t understand the future or the past. And it just reacts according to your most basic needs.
On the other side of things, you’ve also got your “Human” brain. This is the rational side of you. It can use the past to predict the future. It can plan. And it can choose to avoid pleasure now in exchange for greater gains in the future.
But for as advanced as the human side is, it doesn’t deal well with abstraction. If it can’t find a clear pathway to completing a task, it gives up control to the lizard brain. And the lizard brain’s go-to method for dealing with a problem is good ol’ fight or flight.
The problem is you can’t fight abstract goals like “increase revenue this quarter” or “boost commissions by 10%.” So the lizard brain chooses flight. It runs. It procrastinates. And your human brain finally swoops in to justify all the reasons not to start in the first place.
The good news is you aren’t trapped in this cycle. Because…
You can kill your lizard brain and stop procrastinating for good. You’ve just got to do a bit of brain hacking to get the job done.
And there are four techniques to do just that.
1. Goal Priming
When you’re faced with a daunting task like spending hour after hour prospecting, it’s hard to find the motivation to get started. But that’s because you’re focused on the difficulty of thetask. So instead, focus on the end result.
How will your work pay off? What will your life look like after you’ve achieved your goals?
If you’re focused on boosting your commissions but hate cold calling, think about what that extra money will mean for you. What will having an extra $50K a year do for you and your family? What about the career opportunities that will open up as a result?
The more you think about the rewards, the less you’ll think about the costs.
2. Overload Reduction
Technique two, overload reduction.
There is such a thing as having too much choice. It’s called “Choice Overload Bias” And it’s the documented phenomenon of people having a harder time deciding when they have more options. Worth noting is that they’re also less satisfied with their choice when all is said and done.
If you find yourself struggling to get a task started, take a step back for a minute. Are you deciding between 3, 4, 5 ways of doing the task? That’s your problem.
Instead, limit your options. Cut down your choices. And just get started. Don’t worry too much about making the right choice. You can always pivot later on. What matters here is moving forward.
3. Deconstruction
The bigger the goal, the more intimidating it’s going to be. When you’re dealing with something as huge as earning $50K more this year in commissions, it can seem like there’s no way to start making headway.
That of course kicks your lizard brain into high gear. And it makes you 10X less likely to ever get started.But here’s a trick. Break your giant goals down into smaller, more achievable milestones. Shooting for $50K extra this year? Okay, that boils down to $12,500 a quarter or about $4,200 extra a month. How many sales does that mean you have to make in a month? And given your current success rate, how many cold emails do you have to send or cold calls do you have to make to get there?
Then you can start chipping away at that larger goal day by day.
Instead of earning $50K more this year, you just have to spend an extra 30 mins prospecting each day. And that’s a lot easier to swallow.
4. The 5 Minute Rule
The last technique we’re talking about is the Five Minute Rule. And it might be the most immediately powerful.
See, the hardest part of most tasks is getting started—the initial hump. But if you can get past that, the momentum you build along the way will usually be enough to carry you through to the end.
So instead of avoiding that task that takes you 30 minutes to do, commit yourself to just five minutes.
Hate cold calling but need it done? Just do five minutes.
Can’t stand updating your CRM? Give it five.
Always miserable while learning product specs? Cinco minutos mi amigo.
Five minutes is all it takes. So at the next sign of procrastination, just commit to five minutes. You’ll be surprised at how quickly you get the motivation to keep it going
This Question Will Make You Better At Sales | Selling Made Simple
Jun 22, 2022
Want to get better at selling in two seconds? Easy peasy.
Ask potential buyers, “What's stopping you solving this problem for yourself?” You’ll eliminate objections AND set yourself up for an easier close with just one phrase.
But hold on—asking the question is only half the battle. To get the right effect, you need to know how to get to the point of asking it. That’s where the real magic happens and that’s what we’re covering in this video.
Now, buyers often give objections because they think they can solve whatever problem they have by themselves. They don’t need your help. So why would they buy your solution?
But the truth of the matter is, if they could solve their problem on their own, wouldn’t they have done it by now? Instead, something’s missing. Something’s holding them back from solving their own pain points. This, my friends, is what’s known as leverage.
If you can get prospects to realize they can’t do it on their own, you’re in a fantastic selling position. AND you’ve also eliminated a slew of sales objections that you would’ve had to deal with later on.
But before you can drop this bombshell of a sales question, you’ve got to start by…
1. Properly Qualifying a Prospect
Lead qualification is one of the greatest challenges for sales reps. HubSpot found that 34%, over one-third, of reps said lead qualification is the biggest obstacle to hitting their numbers.
With the right leads, closing is easier. Prospects are more enthusiastic. And the chances of a busted deal are far slimmer.
Now, there are plenty of acronyms for qualifying frameworks out there. Each more complicated and confusing than the last. But when you get down to brass tacks, each focuses on three major questions:
What Do They Want?
What’s Stopping Them From Achieving This?
Can We Help Them Get There?
That’s it. Three questions. But how do you get that information out of prospects in the first place?
The Selling Made Simple Academy’s Diagnose Framework does a fantastic job of guiding you through how to get those answers.
This eight-step model includes everything you need to ask on a discovery call.
And whether you’ve gotten a verbal commitment that’ll lock buyers into the deal.
The info you learn through this framework ensures you’ll only be working with qualified prospects that are itching to buy.
Once you’ve done that, THEN it’s time to move on to step two…
2. Popping The Question
The most common objection most reps face is that buyers think they can solve their own business issues themselves. It’s especially common among small to medium-sized businesses because they believe they can save some serious dough by handling it themselves.
Once we’ve qualified the prospect, the best way around this objection is to ask them to their face…
“You know the issue, you know where you want to go, what’s stopping you from solving this yourself?”
The prospect will look you blankly in the face and say one of three things is holding them back…
Time
Expertise
Motivation
It all comes down to one or more of those three. That’s it.
What’s important here isn’t necessarily that you know which of these three is stopping them. Though as we’ll see in the next step, that knowledge is incredibly useful in closing later on.
Instead, the magic here is that the buyer admitsthey need help. They’re making the need real. Because they’ve stopped, thought about it, and said out loud why they can’t do it themselves.
That shift in mindset is powerful. It turns you from a greedy salesperson into someone who’s offering real, true value. You instantly change from a predator—somebody trying to steal their money—to an asset that can solve their problem. And that my friends is huge.
So, the prospect has mentally and verbally agreed they need help via time, expertise, or motivation. Now what? Now you have everything you need to close the deal by…
3. Leveraging the Answer
Depending on what your prospect said was holding them back—time, expertise, or motivation—you can now structure the rest of your process and closing strategy around that answer.All you have to do is continually circle back to this pain point as you nurture and close on the deal.
Don’t have the time to do it yourself? No problem, we can do all the time-intensive work for you. Is expertise the hangup here? We’ve been doing this for decades. Motivation holding you back? Let’s look at the risks of not dealing with the problem.
See how that works?
The best way you can incorporate this info into your closing strategy is by using the Selling Made Simple Academy’s Storytelling Framework. Let’s take a quick look at what that entails.
This framework uses the power of storytelling. People are moved by stories, entranced by them even. And when you weave some skillful storytelling into your closing process, it unites both the logical and emotional sides of the prospect’s brain.
Let’s look at the framework.
1. Describe Their Current Reality
Describe the buyer’s current reality by pointing to a past client you’ve helped. One that was suffering the same pain points your current buyer is going through. Growth stalling, inefficient teams, whatever. What matters here is that they’re pain points that resonate with the buyer. It’s what they are experiencing too.
2. Dig Into the Unresolved Pain
Dig into the unresolved pain. Now is when you “twist the knife”. Your goal here is to make the current prospect really feel what your past client was going through. As a result, they’ll also feel what they are going through more deeply too.
You can do that by adding more detail. What are the consequences of this pain? Who does the prospect look stupid in front of because of it? Who’s judging them? And what’s on the line here?
3. Hitting the Success Blockers
Hitting the success blockers. What held your past customer back from fixing their problem? HERE is where you incorporate your buyer’s response to the magic question. Was it time? Was it expertise? Was it motivation?
This is where we really connect the dots and drive the similarities home. Once you do that, you can move on to step four…
4. Illuminating the Future Reality
Illuminating the future reality. How was your customer’s life different after they overcame the success blocker? How was it better? Were they able to achieve or even outperform their professional goals? Did their stress levels drop? Did the higher-ups recognize all the hard work the hero went through to achieve these results?
The rosier the future, the more it’ll drive enthusiasm for the buyer.
5. Building the Reality Bridge
Building the reality bridge. It’s time to tie everything together. It’s time to explain that you are the guide/mentor that took the hero from their current reality to their better future reality.
It was you that let them bridge the gap across their success blockers. It was you that has the time, expertise, and motivation to get the prospect from where they are now to where they want to be. You are the Gandalf to their Frodo.
And of course, you can do the same thing for the prospect too. You can make them the hero in their own story. All they have to do is say, “yes.”
You NEED to Understand This About Cold Calling | Selling Made Simple
Jun 16, 2022
Cold calling’s dead? I don’t think so. 82% of buyers say they accept meetings with reps who cold called. And 57% of C-suite execs preferred way to be contacted.
So don’t fall for the hype—cold calling is alive and well. And if you’ve already seen some success with it, here are just a few small tweaks you can make to take things from paying the bills to early retirement.
Now before we get started, I want to point out this is not a video for beginners. There are plenty of tutorials on how to get started with cold calling. And this is not one of them.
Instead, it’s built for reps who have already built a semi-successful process, but you can’t quite seem to make any progress. You’ve plateaued. And despite your best efforts, your numbers never seem to get better.
Sound familiar? Well if so, I’ve got your back with these three strategies. So let’s jump in.
1. Tone
Tone. Your tone is a critical part of what types of feelings you’re eliciting in your prospect. From pitch and volume to speed and your own attitude—yes, people can hear smiles—your tone of voice says a lot about you as a person.
And one big problem reps face is learning how to hone their voices when cold calling so that buyers aren’t scared off in the first second or two.
As it turns out, most buyers don’t respond well to an overexcited sales rep on the line. Their over-enthusiasm comes off as suspicious. And no matter how great your product is, you’re going to scare off prospects when you come in hot with the stereotypical sales rep approach.
Instead, try taking a calmer, more relaxed approach. And to do that, you need to…
Shift Your Self-Worth
Let me tell you what I mean by that.
According to sales expert and professional trainer Josh Braun, the tendency to sound overexcited on a call comes from reps wanting the sale too much.
And you might be saying, “Will, isn’t wanting the sale a good thing?” And on one level, it is. But what needs to take precedence over wanting the sale is wanting the right buyer. Because truth be told, every prospect isn’t going to be a fit for what you’re selling. Some buyers are going to say no. And that’s okay.
Expert Note:
“The trouble salespeople get into is when they attach their self-worth to the outcome. No, one’s rejecting you as a person, they’re just rejecting what you’re saying. And so when you do that, it’s almost like I feel like I’m on a golf course, and I’m calm and I’m swinging the club, and I’m going to the next hole. And there’s a bunch of holes.”
Josh Braun
Salesman Podcast
There are plenty of other prospects out there. And when you find the right one—the one that’s actually a fit for what you’re selling—that’s when the magic really happens.
So remember, stay calm. Stay collected. And try to sound as natural on the phone as possible.
Now the second tweak involves…
2. Mindset
Mindset. And this one isn’t about your mindset like the last one was. Instead, it’s about the prospect’s mindset. What they are thinking. How they are viewing the world. And most importantly, how they are thinking about you.
So first of all, most people don’t like to be cold called. Shocker, right? Because they’re busy. They’re managing their staff, they’re on the hunt for new clients, they’re blah blah blah. They’re doing stuff! And your call is an interruption for getting that work done.
Now, most sales reps try to ignore that fact. They try to lure prospects into forgetting about it by being personable, by being likeable, and by demonstrating that they have value. But I’ve got news for you here—your prospect will notforget.
They may move past it at some point. But the vast majority of people who pick up a cold call are going to be annoyed. And the more you try to schmooze your way into their good graces, the more they’re going to think of you as just another skeezy salesman.
So what’s the solution here? How do you break down that stereotype and shift their mindset?
Acknowledge the Interruption
Call it out. Tell them you understand you’re being an inconvenience rather than trying to push that inconvenience under the rug.
This tip comes from Chris Beall, Founder, CEO, and sales psychology expert. Here’s what he says:
Expert Note:
“The reason that cold calling actually can be allowed to work 100% of the time is you can show the other person you see the world through their eyes. And all you have to do is say this phrase correctly, with the right heart, then it works. You say, “I know I'm an interruption.” Not something soft like, “Oh, I do believe I might well be interrupting your day.” Or any of the crap that people want to say. Take full accountability for being the ambusher, see the world through their eyes.“
Chris Beall
Salesman Podcast
When you do that, you’re showing prospects that you understand them. And you’re helping shift their mindset away from seeing you as an inconvenience. And towards being receptive to hearing what you’ve got to say.
3. Structure
Structure. There’s a place for freewheeling conversations and meandering discussions. But cold calling is not it. To take your results to a new level of success, you need to follow a general outline of how to get from point A to point B. To turn your prospect from, “Who the hell is this?” to “I want what they’re selling.”
So the first thing to remember when it comes to structure is that on cold calls, you’re not selling the product…
You’re Selling The Meeting
This again comes from the mind of Chris Beall. He told me…
Expert Note:
“The product you're selling is the meeting, not the product. So you have to believe in the potential value of the meeting for this individual, even in the downside case where you never do business together. So you have to know what's on offer in the meeting. What are they going to learn? That's the product. And I think the biggest mistake that most people make is they sell past the meeting. They sell the product as though the product is going to draw somebody into the meeting. It's not. Curiosity is going to draw somebody into a meeting.“
Chris Beall
Salesman Podcast
With that in mind, you now have to follow a structure that takes them from the initial stage to booking a call.
And that process looks like this…
Fear > Trust > Curiosity > Commitment > Action
At the initial stage, prospects are in fear. And surprisingly enough, that prospect is afraid of you. Because you’re the interruption. And right now the only thing they’re thinking of is getting off the phone with their self-image intact.
So what can you do to move them from fear to trust? Well that’s where the previous tweak comes in—calling out the interruption. Like we said, this is showing the prospect that you’re not like every other sales rep. And in fact, you even know what that prospect is thinking and going through. And alakazam, you’ve built a solid foundation of trust.
Only once you’ve built that trust can you then start piquing their curiosity with what they’re going to learn at the meeting. And after you’ve stoked that curiosity, you can bring in the verbal commitment and get them to take action by booking a call.
The Rocky Road to Becoming a Sales MILLIONAIRE | Selling Made Simple
Jun 13, 2022
Money! We all love it. We all want it. And we all never seem to have enough of it.
Sam here tried his hand at sales because of the earning potential. But he quickly dropped out due to the stress.
But Walter knew that if you could push through the downsides, you could bring in a massive income. We’re talking MILLIONS. And he also learned the tricks to make earning beefy commissions easier than ever.
And that’s what we’re covering today—the risks, the rewards, and the simple steps you can follow to become a sales millionaire.
Now, working in sales is no picnic by any means.
On the one hand, there’s the rejection. Which sorry to say, is typically a given. The better you get, the less of a problem it becomes, sure. But first starting out, you’re going to get some no’s.
On top of that, the cold calling and cold emailing can be monotonous at times.
But by and large, the toughest thing about sales is this—you are the one responsible for your pay. If you suck, you sink. And for some, that can be a terrifying prospect. Because if you slack off, you aren’t guaranteed the paycheck you’ve come to depend on.
A sales career isn’t a cakewalk. That much is clear. But there are some serious benefits to it too. Benefits that no other career can offer.
And today, that’s what we’re talking about. The upsides. The reason why sales is in my opinion, so special. So exciting. And so fulfilling.
So let’s jump into it.
A) Quickest Way to Make Money
It’s the quickest way to make money. There are other careers that may get you to that 7-figure level at some point. But sales is without a doubt the fastest. So, why is that?
1. Product Development’s Done Already
The hard work’s done. Your brand’s already spent the time, the money, and the effort to create a working product. And they’ve built connections with vendors, distributors, and regulatory agencies to handle all those sticky logistics.
All you have to do is sell it!
2. You Can Stay Mobile
You can stay mobile. Sales skills tend to transfer cleanly from one company, market, and even industry to another. If you were killing at company A, you’ll probably kill it at company B too.
So once you’ve built up a proven success record, you can easily move on to a more profitable company. Working your way up and up until you’re at an employer and salary that’s a fit for your goals.
There aren’t a lot of other positions that allow for this level of mobility. So take advantage.
3. Brand Leverage
Brand leverage. One of the great things about sales is you can leverage the social proof of the brand you’re working for.
If you’re working with one that’s established, they already have a customer base. They’ve got a market. And they’ve probably got case studies, success stories, and testimonials that you can distribute to potential buyers.
If you were to say, start your own business, you’d have to toil away for years to make a name for yourself. But as a rep, that hard work’s already done for you.
4. Inbound Sales Leads
Inbound sales leads. In all likelihood, your brand will have a marketing department. And that marketing department will literally feed you leads. That’s their entire purpose—to send qualified buyers to your doorstep.
And if they do things right, that means you don’t have to work nearly as hard to get prospects knocking on your door.
Alright so let’s get into the second reason sales can be such a great career.
B) Least Risky Way to Make Money
It’s the least risky way to make money. With other money-making ventures, risk is a serious factor. In many cases, the risks outweigh the earning potential. And if they don’t, it’s usually because the pay isn’t all that great to begin with.
You Can Become Unsackable
See, every business knows the value of a great sales rep. We are the lead moneymakers, the final step between selling and sold. And there is a direct and easily observable correlation between a bad rep and a good one—good ones bring in more money.
That’s why a quality rep is such a secure position. There’s not an iota of confusion about your contribution to the company. So as a rep, you’re likely going to be one of the last employees to go on the chopping block.
On top of all that though, your competitors will proactively try to poach you. That means if you do get fired, it’s an easy path to another job. Plus, you can leverage their offers for a raise at your own.
It’s also the least risky way to make money because…
The Alternative is to Start Your Own Business
The alternative is to start your own business. When you boil it down to earning potential and speed of making your first million, creating a business for yourself is the only real alternative to a sales position.
And there are some very real downsides here.
First you’ve got to develop a product. That can take years and years of brainstorming, rigorous testing, partnering with the right vendors, blah blah blah. You see how this can take forever.
But even when you do develop a product, you’ve still got to build awareness around it AND, surprise surprise, you have to be good at SELLING that product anyhow! It all comes back down to sales, doesn’t it?
And finally, most importantly, most businesses just don’t make it that long. The U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics reports that one out of five businesses go under in their first year. Only half make it to year five. And by year ten, 2 out of 3 are kaput.
So when it comes to the best alternative to sales in order to make your millions, the odds are just stacked against you.
Let’s move onto the third reason for sales being such a great moneymaker.
C) Simplest Way to Make Money
It’s the simplest way to make money… if you know what you’re doing that is.
Here’s why. Once you get good at it, it actually becomes easier to make more money. For instance, once you make a name for yourself, you can start selling products that are…
Well Known, Easy to Explain, High Value
Well known products already have great marketing and inbound lead generation systems in place. Think of platforms like HubSpot CRM. Practically every business owner already knows about HubSpot. And that means selling prospects on its value doesn’t take much work at all, making your life 100% easier.
Easy to explain products have strong messaging. And they’ve already broken through to the mainstream. There’s no question about what they do. Because everyone already understands it! Think DHL here with their tagline, “Excellence. Simply Delivered.”
And last but not least, once you get good at sales, you can also work with products that have a high value. These are the products where it’s easy to show a strong ROI. And that means less squabbling over budget problems.
The Selling Made Simple Academy, for example, has a very clear value proposition—find and close more sales in the next 30 days or your money back. It’s as easy as that.
Strong, Proven, Repeatable Sales Process
This is a process you can use every day that’ll consistently let you blow past quotas. And it’s a process that lets you scale your earning potential rather than keeping your income level set.
For you, that means no more guesswork. No more struggling with meeting your numbers. And no more hoping this next call is the one.
Instead, it’s a system you know works. And it’s giving you more financial freedom than ever.
Now, there are plenty of sales methodologies out there. But obviously we recommend the Selling Made Simple Academy. This academy uses easy-to-follow yet highly actionable selling frameworks that, well, make selling simple.
And it’s helped literally thousands of sales reps just like you up their game and earn more than they thought possible.
So if you’re interested, I recommend having a look today over at Salesman.org.
Summary
Now I know, sales can be tough. There’s rejection, monotony on some days, and your pay largely depends on your own abilities. If you suck, you sink. And that can be scary for some. But the downsides come with a major upside—the opportunity for making serious bank.
So don’t be fooled here—sales can suck. But when you know what you’re doing, it can hands down be the most lucrative and fulfilling career of your life. No question about it.
SALES Is Just Like DATING... | Selling Made Simple
Jun 08, 2022
Question for you—what do a product demo and a candle-lit dinner have in common?
As it turns out, more than you might think. See, sales is a lot like dating. If you jump into a sales call by bragging and boasting about your product, your buyer is going to immediately lose interest.
But just like in the dating world, there are a few things you can do to make closing much more of a success. And today, we’re talking about three in particular.
So we’ve all been out on a nightmare date before, right? Think back—what was so bad about it? In all likelihood, it was that the person on the other side of the table just wouldn’t stop blabbing about themselves. How much they make. What they can bench press. Who they’re friends with. It’s exhausting just talking about it.
Or maybe that’s been YOU in the past?
But the thing is if you can get the other person talking, feeling good, and sharing what they’re working towards, you’re one thousand percent more likely to build a deep connection.
The same goes for saless.
So, let’s start with maybe the most impactful step you can take to boost your chances of success, both in love and in sales…
Ask, Don’t Tell
To be perfectly honest, your buyers don’t really give a shit about your company or your product. They may eventually, sure. But in the initial stages of the sales cycle, the ones that focus on awareness, the key is to turn the focus on them. You’ll have plenty of time to point to all that juicy social proof when it comes to the decision stage.
So instead of telling prospects about yourself, ask more questions. Now, there are three very real benefits to taking this approach.
1. You Better Understand Their Problem
You better understand their problem. When you’re talking, you’re not listening. And that means you’re not taking in as much info as possible about the problems your prospect is facing. As a result, you’re missing a valuable opportunity to understand their pain points. And an opportunity to find the RIGHT solution for them.
2. You Qualify Them As Ideal Clients
You qualify them as ideal clients. The more you learn about a prospect, the more info you can gather about them. What’s their budget? What kind of timeline do they have? Does their problem even match up with your solution? These are all critical questions you need answers to. Because these are the answers that let you know if this client is right for your business or, frankly, if they’re a waste of time.
3. You Connect Their Emotions
You connect their emotions. Logic plays an enormous factor in B2B buying decisions. But that doesn’t mean emotion doesn’t come into play too.
President and CEO of Whetstone Inc., Adrian Davis, put it to me like this:
“Fundamentally, we make decisions emotionally, and if all we're doing is spouting features and benefits, we're really engaging the logical part of the brain. The logical part of the brain does not make decisions. But analyses and captures information to weigh pros and cons, but decisions are made emotionally.”
When you get prospects talking about their problems, they get invested emotionally in solving those problems. And that means you’re engaging with them using both sides of the coin—logic and emotion.
The #1 Turnoff
The number one turnoff. And like I hinted before, this one overlaps pretty well with the dating world. So, what do you think it is? The top turnoff for both sales and dating?
Bad Breath
No kidding! Now while the worst lingering aroma on your breath while dating is garlic or onions, in sales the worst smell is—commission.
Yep, commission breath. It’s sunk countless sales in the past. And if your buyer catches even a whiff of it, they’re bound to leave you high and dry.
Commission breath is basically when you come off too needy, too desperate. You NEED that sale. And it’s showing. When a buyer sees that desperation, they’re way less likely to trust you. And they’re way less likely to buy from you.
So, how do you kill commission breath? Well, there are three ways in particular.
1. Understand You’re Selling Value
Understand you’re selling value. Your product isn’t some throwaway piece of trash. It isn’t some waste of money. And it does in fact have value for businesses. So don’t come into a sale hoping, begging to close. Because after all, the only thing you’re doing here is trading value.
2. Build Your Self-Respect
Build your self-respect. Now this one isn’t a quick fix. And confidence doesn’t develop overnight. But what I can say is that we at the Selling Made Simple Academy have a framework dedicated specifically to helping reps like you be more confident and assertive on the job. So if you’re interested, I highly suggest checking that out.
3. Re-Evaluate Your Product
Re-evaluate your product. This one’s a tough truth. But it can make the rest of your career far more successful. Ask yourself, is this solution something you can really get behind? Do you really, truly believe it has value? If not, it’s time to start asking yourself some hard questions like, “Do I really want to sell this?” If the answer is no, you may want to find another employer.
Closing – Doing It Wrong?
In the dating world, it’d be just plain weird to end a great date by saying, “Whelp, that was fantastic. Email me if you’re interested in getting together again!”
Ridiculous, right? Instead, you want to seal the deal. Not like that. Get your head out of the gutter! But I’m talking setting up the next date. You want to close on the next steps. The next date.
Same goes for sales. Rather than leaving the next steps up in the air, you want to close on your next meeting—a discovery call, a product demo, a tech spec deep-dive, whatever!
And to do that, I have one little phrase for you…
“Does It Make Sense To…”
This is the ultimate closing phrase that’s perfect for any phase of the sales cycle. Does it make sense to draw up the paperwork, have a demo call, look at some case studies? It doesn’t matter what stage you’re in.
If things aren’t quite right on your buyer’s end, they’ll say no and you can follow up questioning why. Simple!
This is the perfect closing question because it keeps things mutual, it identifies any roadblocks, and it lets prospects know exactly where they’re at.
So give it a try.
And that, my friends, is a perfect recipe for winning your second date.
As you can see, dating has a lot more in common with sales than most people realize.
WIN The Most Important Part Of Cold Calls | Selling Made Simple
Jun 03, 2022
The fate of your deal rests in the first four seconds of the sales call. That’s it. If you can nail the first 4 seconds, often the deal is as good as yours. Why is that? It’s because of the importance of first impressions…
Sales rep Sam, for example, always botched his first impressions. So, even though he was selling a solid product, buyers never stayed interested long enough to hear about it.
But Walter knew the importance of a strong first impression. He knew by immediately playing the three specific roles we’re talking about in this video, he’d always win over his prospects.
And guess what? If you implement the 3 roles we’re going to cover, you can do the same too.
Now, first impressions. They set the foundation for the rest of your sales call. If you come off as a commission-hungry sleaze, good luck earning trust with your buyer.
First impressions count. And they form almost instantly, as soon as 33 milliseconds according to some studies.
For sales reps like you, they’re even more important than people in an average job. Because your buyers are busy. And in the short time they give you, you need to build up rapport especially quickly.
So the question is, how do you do it? How can you win over prospects in the first four seconds of a sales call?
It all comes down to playing three key roles. And the first role you need to play is that of…
1. Be the Expert
The expert. If you’re coming off unprofessional or unknowledgeable right off the bat, a buyer isn’t going to waste their time listening to anything you have to say. And if they do, they’re probably just waiting for their chance to leave.
So how do you prove to them that you do, in fact, know what you’re talking about here? Two words—Social. Proof.
Social proof is key to demonstrating your expertise before you ever even get on the call. And there are three specific ways to show that social proof.
A) LinkedIn
First up is LinkedIn. The LinkedIn platform is fantastic for demoing social proof. Endorsements, testimonials, credentials—buyers can see all of it in just a few clicks. But beyond that, they can also get a look at the thought leadership content you should be creating.
So be sure you’ve created a complete profile here. Ask for endorsements. Put out original content regularly. And check in once a day or so to stay active. It doesn’t have to take more than 15 minutes.
Now if you’re social selling, buyers coming through the platform should see your page immediately. But if you’re not, I’ve got a tip coming up that’ll boost the odds of your prospects checking out your LinkedIn page.
B) Network
Network. Who you associate with says a lot about who you are. Are you connected with big names in the industry? Have you worked with top players before? What brands have you sold for and to?
A smart buyer will do their homework before setting up a call with you. And they’re sure to check out who you’re connected with, most likely through LinkedIn.
But if you’re especially savvy, you’ll have your own website set up that prospects can look through. Here you can house all your thought leadership content as well as your experience, testimonials from clients, and endorsements.
So make sure you’re doing the work of collecting this kind of social proof from your clients. Because they can do wonders for trust-building before you hop on the sales call.
C) Setup Email
Setup Email. This is the sales call confirmation email that buyers will get after booking a time with you.
Typically this email will include all the basic info. We’re talking time and date, agenda, and a few words on what else buyers can expect.
But this email is the perfect place to include some pieces of social proof to start the trust-building process. A testimonial here. A success stat there. Nothing too over the top. You don’t want to come in too strong.
Your signature line is also a great place to include links to your website, testimonials, and LinkedIn profile.
And finally, you could even point them to a piece of content you created within the email.
2. Be the Equal
The equal. A successful relationship is one that’s built on equality. Each member needs to give and take equally. And if your buyer is the one with all the power, they’ll never give you the respect and consideration you deserve.
That’s why you need to be the equal here.
A) You Are Serious
You are serious. You aren’t some second-rate sales rep that’s pestering prospects into buying. And you aren’t sending hordes of desperate emails or calling five times a day.
Nope, you’re a professional. And to make sure that comes through, there are a few things you can do.
First, put some effort into your appearance. Clean, smart clothing. Impeccable hygiene—comb that hair. And equipment and a camera background that says, “Hey, I do this for a living. And I take this seriously.”
Second, come prepared. Sending out an agenda beforehand is a must. And showing up on time, with all your necessary materials in-hand, is key.
And finally, get to the point. A bit of small talk is fine. But don’t let things go on for too long. Your buyer’s time is valuable. And so is yours.
2. You Aren’t a Crook
You aren’t a crook. And you don’t have to trick prospects into buying from you. That’s because you have real value to exchange here. A lot of the work being done here comes from the social proof you’ve shared before the call.
But you can also tweak your language to build trust. Stay away from getting too personal or friendly early on in the relationship. Keep communication professional—no swears or inappropriate stories. And don’t badmouth your competition. It might be tempting to bring a competitor down to boost yourself up. But doing so makes your own business come off shady.
And the third way to show you’re an equal is by proving…
B) You Are Assertive
You are assertive. You don’t let the prospect walk all over you. You can start by taking control of the call at the outset. Be the first to show up, the first to talk, and the one to set the agenda.
Depending on the buyer, you may hit a bit of resistance. But don’t give up control here.
For instance, when clients try to take hold of the conversation or steer away from the agenda, simply say, “This is the way these things normally work,” and redirect the conversation. If they do it again, pause, and then repeat. They’ll get the point.
This is your show here. So act like it.
Now, the final role you’ve got to play on calls is
3. Be of Value
A rep that has value. You’re an expert so you’re not wasting their time. You’re an equal so you’re worth listening to. And you have value, so you have what it takes to make your buyer’s life easier. They just have to listen up.
A) Your Product Is Solid
Your product is solid. Testimonials, credentials, awards, referrals, and other social proof nuggets are powerful here. Your product works! And here’s the info to prove it.
But you may want to take things a step further too. In the agenda confirmation email, try pointing them to a bit of light reading on your product before they jump on the call. It could be product details, case studies, even blog posts. Whatever it is, you want your buyer to come into the call confident that what you’re selling isn’t a sham. And in fact, it might be the exact solution they’re looking for.
B) You Are Knowledgeable
You are knowledgeable. The old “It practically sells itself!” saying is bull. Any sale, no matter how great the product, can be completely ruined by an unknowledgeable sales rep. Because even in the high-logic world of B2B sales, buyers still need to work with someone who knows what they’re talking about.
And if they catch even a whiff of you fudging numbers, getting product details wrong, misunderstanding use cases, or generally not knowing what it is your product does, they’re going to head for the hills. And fast.
So make sure you’re doing your due diligence beforehand. Or else you might end up looking like a fool.
C) You’ve Done Your Research
You’ve done your research. You need to show that you know you can specifically help the person you’re talking to.
What problems is their business currently facing? What issues are cropping up across the industry? How are their competitors handling these changes? These are all must-knows here.
Because the more specifically you can cater your product’s benefits to your buyer’s exact needs, the closer to closing you’ll be.
LinkedIn is a great research tool here. Dive into what types of content the buyer’s been sharing, creating, and commenting on. Get a feel for what they’re focusing on before the call.
And if you’ve helped a business like them in the past, send over case studies or some numbers beforehand. That way they’re getting on the call knowing you’ve helped someone similar in the past.
Summary
So, to win over your prospects in the first 4 seconds of your sales calls you need to –
1. Be the Expert
First, be the expert. LinkedIn, networking, and including social proof in the call setup email are your friends here.
2. Be the Equal
Be the equal. Remember, that one, you are not another pesky salesperson chasing and pestering the prospect. Two, you’ve made it clear you have value to exchange. And three, you aren’t some sort of pushover.
3. Be of Value
Be of value. You’ve got a solid product. You’re knowledgeable. And you’ve done your research.
And when you’re able to play all three roles the instant you step on your sales call, you’ll immediately be building rapport, earning trust, and boosting your odds of closing.
How I Close COMPLEX Sales In A SINGLE Call | Selling Made Simple
May 27, 2022
In sales, the general rule of thumb is, the more complex the product, the longer the sales cycle.
And for some complex products, that might be true. But for others, a single phone call is all it takes to get a deal done.
I close complex training and consulting packages with some of the brightest companies in the world. And usually, I do it over a single conversation. Yep, I have one phone call with the prospect and then send the invoice.
Most salespeople think this is impossible. But with the right step-by-step, single call structure, you too can start closing your deals quicker than ever before.
So the business-winning phone call isn’t a sales myth. It isn’t sales folklore. And it isn’t an old wives’ tale. But it is misunderstood. See, you can’t get any old buyer on the phone and close them in a single conversation.
No, they have to be the right buyer. And the real trouble, the thing that should take the most effort, the most thought, and the most time is qualification. A survey from HubSpot found that the number one challenge for one out of three sales reps is lead qualification. And it’s true, doing it right is tough.
That’s why with the Diagnosis framework we’re going to first discover the pain that the prospect is in, qualify them to see if we should be doing business with them and then close them, in that order.
Most salespeople do this over multiple calls, over multiple weeks. This framework will show you how to do this in just one call and then close the prospect at the end.
The first step is to understand the buyers…
1. Pain
Pain. Is this potential buyer actually in pain right now? Is their problem actually a problem at all?
The buyers you want to work with are feeling the hurt from this problem. And as a result, they’re going to be highly motivated to find the right solution.
Now, a few qualifying questions to ask that’ll get to the bottom of their pain are…
“You booked this call with me today, what led to getting this call booked in?” and…
“What’s stopping you from solving this issue yourself?”
Both of these questions should help you get to how big this problem really is for the buyer.
2. Time
Time. Not all problem and solution timelines are going to line up. And one of your primary concerns when qualifying prospects is what their timeline is for when they need their problem solved.
Are they thinking today? This quarter? Or in the next few years?
If your buyer doesn’t have urgency, they won’t be compelled to act. And as a result, you’ll likely encounter plenty of feet dragging and time-wasting along the way. Best instead to say you’re not a fit early on.
As for qualifying questions here, start with…
“Do you have a deadline to solve this?”
It’s straightforward, I know. But the answer will give you a clear, no-bullshit timeline that you can work with.
3. Fit
Fit. Can you actually fix this buyer’s problem?
The truth of the matter is there’s no perfect product or service for everyone. And saying otherwise is just playing into the public’s idea of sales reps being con men.
Instead, it’s your job to think of yourself as someone who offers value. And you shouldn’t have to waste time with someone who doesn’t need what you’re selling.
Qualifying questions here are for YOU this time, not the buyer. So ask yourself…
“Do I have the solution for this buyer’s problem?” and…
“Do they really need this solution?”
4. Return
Return. There’s a downside to any solution. Buyers need to change vendors, hire new staff, train on novel systems, or fight for a change to the budget.
The question is, is the value your solution provides worth that discomfort?
How much will they have to change to accommodate it? And when all is said and done, will they look back on the investment as a good purchase or one that ate up too many resources?
Going through this calculation upfront is a must during qualification of sales leads
For qualifying questions here, try…
“How would things be different if we solved this for you?”
“What is your motivation to make this happen?”
“If we took your business from $X to $X, how would that change things?”
These three questions will help you parse out whether your buyer’s willing to put in the effort needed to make this a success.
5. Process
Process. As an expert on your product, you know what it takes to make using it a success.
But does the buyer know how things are purchased in their organization? Do they know who needs to be involved? What training needs to be done? What process did you need to follow to get the project implemented.
You can uncover this by asking…
“When your organization has done similar projects in the past, what paperwork process needed to happen?”
This will give you a clearer idea of what lies ahead should the buyer be a reasonable fit.
6. Budget
Budget. As touchy of a subject as budget can be, it’s absolutely essential that you get a feel for your buyer’s budget before you start working with them.
Now, that doesn’t mean you have to lead the call with questions about money. And in fact, doing so may turn off the prospect from the outset, sinking any hopes of a deal.
Instead, lead up to budgetary questions. Handle the subject professionally and use direct communication. Think of it as just another aspect of the qualification process.
And use these questions to get the necessary details without scaring off the buyer.
“How are projects like this funded?”
“Is a project like this in this year’s budget?”
“What financial scope do you have to solve this issue?”
7. Champion
Champion. With sales, your buyer’s decision is often going to be influenced by other individuals in the business. It could be heads of other departments, higher-ups in the C-suite, or even influential team members below them.
That’s why it’s important to figure out who these other individuals (or “champions”) are before you decide the buyer’s a fit.
Doing so clues you into whether the buyer is the final decision maker and if there’s someone else you should be talking to instead.
The main qualifying question here should be…
“Who is the person that people look up to within your department on projects like this?”
This subtle approach will help you uncover any other decision-makers that may influence the passing of the deal.
8. Agreement
Agreement. As a sales professional, it’s up to you to get your buyer’s verbal commitment on the call. Otherwise, they’re liable to walk away after days or even weeks of your hard work, leaving you out weeks or even months of hard work.
So when you’ve determined that a buyer is a solid lead, don’t hang up the phone before asking this discovery call question.
“You’re a good fit to work with us. If we can solve X, will you commit to Y?”
This time-tested formula has it all—validation, a hint of flattery, results anchoring. By asking this question, you’re tying your solution to a specific result. And equally importantly, you’re influencing the buyer to commit to that solution, provided you can achieve the results you promise.
After that, the only thing left to do is nail down the specifics and sign the papers.
Summary
No matter how complex your product is, how many moving parts your solution may have, it is possible to win business on a single call. All it takes is asking the right questions and qualifying prospects according to the right structure.
Never Again Wonder “Are They Going To Buy?” | Selling Made Simple
May 23, 2022
Invisibility, flight, laser eyes… NONE of these superpowers compare to the #1 superpower for sales reps—which is the ability to read minds…
Because when you can read your prospect’s mind, you can give them exactly what they’re looking for. And that means more closed deals, better commissions, and a bank account even Bruce Wayne would be jealous of.
Today I’m showing you how to become a sales superhero by learning how to read your prospect’s mind. In this video you’re going to learn 6 ways to understand exactly what your prospect is thinking.
But before we get into the specifics, let’s talk about verbal language.
Language is an amazing tool for connecting and communicating with others. It lets us share ideas, vent frustrations and, solve mutual problems, But even still, Words alone have limitations. And context, history, and individual experience all can change a word’s meaning from one person to the next.
Luckily, according to the research, around 70% of our communication doesn’t rely on words. And equally lucky, our brains are equipped with the ability to read nonverbal communication effectively . we can use non verbal communication to understand what someone else is thinking without them ever saying a single word!
So, what do you need to do to become a better mind reader?
3 Internal Tactics
1) Establish a Baseline
Establish a baseline. This one has its roots deep in the world of science and evidence. Here’s why.
When you’re creating an experiment, say you’re testing the effects of a new pain pill, you need to run at least two versions of that experiment. In one of the experiments you actually give the pain reliever to patients. Duh, right? How else could you tell if the drug worked or not?
But you also have to run what’s called a “control experiment” too. This is where every variable of the experiment is the same. EXCEPT rather than giving the patients the drug, you don’t. You give them a placebo instead,
Why do we also run a control experiment? Because you need something to compare the results of the pain pill against. You need to know how much of the effects are due to the drug itself and how much are due just to the experimental conditions.
And when it comes to becoming a mind reader with your prospects, you need to do the same by establishing their baseline. Do they always have a sweaty brow, or just when they’re lying to you? Do they always speak fast, or only when they’re lying that they’re close to doing a deal with the competition and they’ve only come to you for pricing?
To get a baseline of your prospect, you first need to get them relaxed. Get them talking about something friendly and unassuming, maybe a hobby or the weather. Then study how they’re acting.
This is your baseline. From there, you can look out for changes from this state. Those changes indicate a shift in their mood
Say for example you ask a prospect about a competitor, and they change their posture and start talking faster. That may indicate they’re already working with them. If on the other hand they maintain their baseline and casually say they’re not interested in your competition, then they’re probably telling the truth.
See how that works? So first and foremost, always establish a baseline to help you spot changes in the emotions or actions of the prospect.
2) Ask Assertive Questions
In sales, you need to be clear and assertive with your questions.
For example, let’s take our old friends Sam and Walter the sales reps.
Sam’s got a problem with assertiveness. And when he tries to close, he asks something like this…
“Well, when… er… would you like to get started working with us? I mean if that’s what you choose to do?”
What’s the problem here? A Lack of confidence. And importantly, asking TWO questions—are you choosing to work with us and when would you like to get started?
There’s a lot to unpack for the prospect here. And it’s no wonder a question like this leads Sam’s buyers to give mixed signals, hedge on their promises, and ultimately back out of the deal.
Walter on the other hand is assertive and clear. He asks…
“Does it make sense to sign the contracts today?”
There’s only one way to go from here—yes or no. This reduces the mindreading that you have to do and it makes the buyers opinions clear for you to read.
So take a page from Walter’s book.
And last for the internal mind-reading tactics is…
3) Listening to Your Gut
There is a lot of science around the truth behind “gut feelings”.
In one study from the journal Nature Scientific Reports, Italian scientists filmed a series of short videos of a hand grasping a bottle and either pouring it out or drinking from it. Then, study participants were shown a short 1-second clip of the hand just before it touches the bottle. They were then asked to guess, using their gut feeling, whether the whole video showed the grasper pouring it out or drinking from the bottle.
And guess what? Participants guessed right far above the level of mere chance.
That shows, scientifically, that you should trust your gut feelings when reading your prospects.
And there are countless other studies just like this one too. Our intuition is more powerful than most people give it credit for. This primal response has been honed over millions of years. It’s what kept your ancestors alive. And it’s just as effective in the corporate jungle as it has been in the past.
So if you’re feeling like a prospect is confused, upset, excited, or disengaged but you can’t quite put your finger on why, listen to your gut. And more likely than not, your unconscious mind is picking up on signals your conscious one just can’t see.
Alright let’s shift over to the external tactics. First up here is…
3 External Tactics
1) Studying the Environment
When trying to read your prospects, be on the lookout for environmental cues that hint at your prospects personality, hobbies or motivators . You can then use those cues to round out your idea of who your prospect is. . you can also use their environment as a way to build rapport and open the door to even more friendly, open conversation.
For instance, when I interviewed Andy White, author of MEDDIC for the first time, I noticed he had tons of racing helmets on his bookcase in the background. Now, I could have let that environmental cue go by. But instead, I brought it up. I also happen to like F1, so we had instant rapport because of it.
And because of that rapport, I was able to get a better sense of what Andy was thinking and he was much more open with his thoughts and feelings as a result.
And guess what, you can do the same thing. So be sure to take note of environmental cues. They could be the difference between closing and crashing.
2) Take Note of Their Appearance
What are they wearing? How do they keep themselves? Are they clad in an expensive, jewel-encrusted watch? Wearing a Ferrari owners club T-shirt? Dressed down in a stained sweatshirt with unkempt hair?
These are all valuable details. And they’re all hints that you can use to better read them.
Now to be clear, we’re not looking to see if they “have money”. Lots of super-rich people wear tattered RL polo shirts, after all. But instead, what we’re looking for is their social status. Who are they compared to the people around them?
If for example they’re more dressed down than everyone else in the room, then they are probably the real decision maker here. Best to focus in on them with your pitch. If they’re wearing a Rolex and everyone else looks like students with Apple watches, you should probably approach them differently than the rest.
3) Be Ultra-Aware of Distractions
One of your top goals on a sales call is to command your prospect’s full attention. And if you don’t have it, that means they don’t care about what you’re saying.
Distractions also make it very hard for you to read your prospects too. Because if they’re distracted and they move away from their baseline, you don’t know if it was something you said, or if it was because of whatever else is going on around them.
There are three things you can do here.
First, you can double down on your point to bring the attention back. Really hit on the reason your prospect will benefit personally from working with you here. And hopefully, you can perk up their ears and get them interested.
Second, you can stop and call them out on it. As you might imagine, this one is risky, especially if you haven’t built up a lot of rapport. But in some cases, that assertiveness is enough to make them realize you’re someone worth listening to.
And last, you can reschedule. You can cut the meeting short and agree on a later date so your time isn’t wasted. Sometimes that’s all it takes to get a prospect in the right headspace to see the value in what you’re offering.
Stop Letting Buyers Walk All Over You | Selling Made Simple
May 20, 2022
Sales reps have it rough. Besides the endless slog of cold outreach, when you actually do connect with a buyer, you’re told to suck up to them. Smile, dance, give-in—do anything to win the deal.
But what most reps don’t know is that there’s a better way to get what you want from your selling conversations. And best of all, it doesn’t require you to leave your dignity at the door.
“The customer is always right.” We’ve all heard the old saying. And unfortunately, a lot of sales professionals have moved through their careers believing that it was true. That the rep who charms, kowtows, and leaves buyers smiling 100% of the time is the one that kills it month after month.
But what would you say if I told you this age-old rule was… ready? Shit. It’s shit!
It’s just plain wrong. And in fact, bending to a buyer’s will in every single conversation is a surefire way to muck up any sale.
Instead, the trick is to be assertive. And if you’re one of the many professionals out there that isn’t as assertive as they should be, never fear. Because today, we’re looking at how to be a more assertive sales rep.
Now, before we get into the nitty-gritty of it all, let’s first hit on…
Why Assertiveness Is a Must
Why assertiveness is a must in sales. There are five main benefits to being assertive in this industry. First…
A) It Closes More Deals (Duh)
It closes more deals. You don’t get the sale if you don’t ask for the sale. When you lack assertiveness, you lack the confidence you need to push through the awkward yet entirely necessary stages of closing a sale. But as you become more assertive, you’ll find yourself closing more often.
B) It Gives You More Authority
It gives you more authority. The more authoritative you appear, the more likely buyers will be to listen, value your opinion, and look to you as a trusted expert. Consequently, you’ll find yourself having more influence over not just whether they buy. But also what they buy.
C) Communication Improves.
Communication also improves. Tiptoeing around an issue may seem like a good way to soften a blow and keep on your buyer’s good side. But in B2B sales especially, being clear and to the point is a better way to communicate. Your buyers will appreciate you saying outright what you think.
D) Higher Self-Esteem
Assertiveness leads to higher self-esteem. That, in turn, leads to greater job satisfaction, a higher earning potential, and ultimately a happier, healthier home life.
Alright, so how do you become more assertive?
The Assertiveness Training Framework
The Assertiveness Training Framework comes in. Now, if you want to learn more about this framework, be sure to check out the Selling Made Simple Academy. But for today’s purposes, let’s quickly go over the core tenets of this proven framework.
1) Excuses
You have the right to offer no reasons or excuses for your behavior. It’s true.
Now, you might be tempted to give an excuse for your actions or beliefs. But doing so takes the control out of your own hands. Instead, get used to not giving excuses for your beliefs, actions, or decisions.
Don’t get me wrong—you still need to take responsibility if you’re in the wrong. So take ownership and apologize.
But if you’re being pressed to say sorry for something you were in the right for, you do not need to offer up any excuses. And in fact, you shouldn’t do so.
2) Choice
You have the right to decide if you will (or won’t) find solutions to other people’s problems.
You need to learn to say “No” to solving other people’s problems.
You are ultimately responsible for your own psychological well-being, happiness, and success in life. And as much as we might want to do good things for one another, we are not responsible for other people and their problems.
To master this step, you need to get comfortable with saying “no” more often.
So to build this skill up, start saying “no” more. The more you do it, the easier it becomes.
3) Change
You have the right to change your mind.
We don’t have access to all the evidence, all of the time. And when new evidence comes to light, it’s natural—even more, it’s beneficial—to change your mind in light of that new evidence.
This is especially important in a fast-paced business environment like sales. Variables change all the time. And what was a given about a deal or a lead will often flip, turning the knowns on their head.
If you are rigid in your responses to these changes, you can’t react as well as you should. And that can lead to blown contracts, angry prospects, and poor performance overall.
So don’t be afraid to change your mind. Your buyer might even respect you more for it.
Alright so step four of the framework is…
4) Mistakes
You have the right to make mistakes.
No one is perfect. And no matter how smart, skilled, and charismatic you may be, you’re going to make mistakes.
It’s important to remember, though, that everyone else is in the same boat. We all make mistakes. And since everyone does, you shouldn’t have to feel like you need to hide them.
It is your assertive right to make those mistakes and not to tear yourself down (or let someone else tear you down) because of them.
You are not uniquely terrible or especially flawed if you screw up.
And in fact, making mistakes is often the only way you learn. So if you aren’t making mistakes, you aren’t trying hard enough to grow.
5) “I Don’t Know”
You have the right to say, “I do not know” without embarrassment. This one is huge for salespeople. Especially salespeople that work with a particularly technical product or service.
Despite what many in the public think, sales isn’t about bullshitting. It’s not about trickery or cons. Instead, it’s about problem-solving. And if you’re not providing the right information, your solution won’t fix the issue your buyer’s trying to solve, leading to low satisfaction, damaged trust, and zero loyalty (this is bad stuff).
Rather than rattling off a white lie, it’s actually better to say you don’t know the answer to a question.
If it’s a specific product detail, don’t fudge the numbers. Instead, say, “I don’t know” and then assure them you’ll find out the answer.
If it’s an unrelated question, don’t be afraid to say, “I don’t know” and then shutting up.
But just because a prospect asked a question doesn’t mean you need to have the answer, especially if the question was downright stupid to begin with.
6) “I Don’t Care”
You also have the right to say, “I don’t care.”
Your needs, goals, and interests are your own. And just because someone else is worried about an issue doesn’t mean you have to be too.
You tend to find this in the workplace a lot. Random people will tell you how you can become more efficient, or you can become more of a team player, for example. But when it comes down to it, your sales target is based on your actions and work alone.
You should not be forced to care about the stresses, accomplishments, or methodologies of others.
If you’re missing out on some real benefits from collaboration, then that’s on you. But if it’s all about feigning interest for the sake of “harmony,” you shouldn’t feel obligated to care.
Now it’s time to put the framework into action. It’ll take a bit of work to make the shift, I know. But when you do, you’ll find yourself becoming more confident, more effective, and more successful as a sales professional in no time.
INSTANT Rapport WITHOUT Being Weird | Selling Made Simple
May 18, 2022
There’s a lot of bullshit in old school sales training. Mirroring body language, fake-as-hell urgency, uncomfortably high enthusiasm—this is what they USED to say closed deals. But in modern times, They’re all crap. They simply don’t work. And they’re scaring off your potential buyers.
Instead, there are a few surprisingly simple ways you can instantly build rapport WITHOUT coming off as a weirdo. And that’s what we’re talking about in today’s video.
Now, before we jump in, let’s talk about the current state of sales. These days, more than ever, your time winning over a buyer is limited. With all the automation in marketing these days, most buyers can get the majority of the info they need from your website or your content funnels.
Added to that, most businesses are facing 3X as much competition as they would’ve been just 15 years ago.
So when you DO get a buyer on the phone, you’ve got to make your time count. Because if you don’t they’ll have plenty of other options to go with. And that’s where rapport comes in.
What Rapport Is & Why It’s Important
Essentially, rapport is how much your buyer trusts you. It’s what dictates whether or not they take your advice, listen to what you have to say, and ultimately choose to do business with you.
And like most ideas in sales, rapport comes down to a very human, very biological issue—are you part of their tribe or not? Are you on the same side or opposite ones?
See, the human brain is wired to keep us close to those we identify with (our tribe) and be skeptical of those we don’t (not our tribe). It’s called in-group/out-group thinking. And it’s this tendency that’s at the root of so many social and political problems today.
But to bring it back to sales, the better you are at building rapport, the more your buyer will think of you as part of their tribe. And that makes it 10X easier to close the sale.
How to Build Rapid Trust
How do you build rapid trust with potential buyers?
With such little time available to you, how can you earn the trust of a buyer quickly?
Well, technique number one is…
A) Great First Impressions
Nailing a great first impression.
First impressions set the foundation for the rest of your conversation. And for video calls, there are four ways to create a great first impression. First…
B) Tidy Up Your Appearance
Tidy up your appearance. No one likes working with a slob. And no one trusts one with a deal worth tens of thousands of dollars either. So spend some time looking sharp. But skip the diamond-encrusted jewelry here everyone. The goal is to hit a look that hints at success but doesn’t overdo it.
C) Upgrade Your Camera
Upgrade your camera. We’re already deep into the age of remote selling. So if your camera’s grainy, shell out the extra hundred bucks or so for a quality camera. Doing so will also make it easier to form a real, human connection.
D) Set the Stage
Set the stage. Make sure you have adequate lighting and a professional background here. That might mean moving the call to a more secluded area if you’re at home. Or maybe even getting a background screen you could pull down during calls.
Now, on the phone, things are a little different. Instead of visuals, we’re talking audio. So to nail your first impression over the phone, first…
E) Smile
Smile when you’re talking. No kidding here. Try it. People on the other end can tell when you’re smiling. And this tiny change can make a huge impact on whether your buyer decides to keep listening.
F) Speak Confidently
Speak confidently and assertively. If you’re worried you’re wasting a prospect’s time, they’re going to hear it in your voice. Instead, remember that you’re delivering real value here. Say your piece with confidence. And make sure your voice is loud (but not too loud) and clear as crystal.
G) Get to the Point
Get to the point. Your prospect’s time is limited. And the more you waste it with fluff and chit-chat, the more they’re going to resent you for it. Simple as that.
2. Drawing Them In
Drawing them in with a very biological, very human way of building trust. What is that you ask?
Making Eye Contact
Eye contact tells your prospect you’re listening. You’re engaged. And you’re ready to help.
In fact, we’re so biologically attuned to the importance of eye contact that we can tell when eye contact is just a little bit off. Have you ever noticed someone looking at your hair or ears? That’s just inches away, and yet, you can tell!
If you’re uncomfortable making so much eye contact, try looking between the person’s eyes. That’s close enough that they won’t be able to notice.
Now for phone calls, that’s a bit harder. So instead…
Make Ear Contact
Make ear contact. Let the prospect know you’re paying attention by listening more than talking. In fact, the top sales reps spend more time listening than they do talking. You should also regularly repeat your prospect’s concerns with phrases like, “So what I’m hearing you say is…” or “It sounds like you’re saying the problem is…”
This helps keep communication clear while also signaling, “Hey, I’m listening to your every word.”
3. Finding Common Ground
Finding common ground. As soon as you start speaking, find something of common interest.
A great place to start here is contacts, colleagues, or referral sources you have in common. This is without a doubt the most powerful social proof you have. And dropping a familiar name alone is often enough to keep them on the line.
If you don’t have any common contacts, it’s time to do your research. Look for any content they’ve put out on their socials, any industry news they’ve read or commented on. What you’re looking for here is leverage. What’s going to perk up their ears and get them saying, “Oh right, I know what he’s talking about.”
It’s the foot in the door you need to keep moving on.
4. Finding Common Ground on Steroids
Finding common ground on steroids. And that means finding a similar goal.
Sure they’re a buyer and you’re working in sales—different businesses, right? But you’re also people. And that means you two likely have similar goals.
USE THAT.
Early retirement, building enough financial freedom to focus on hobbies, sending your kids to a great school—these are all goals you can both relate to.
And when you find these goals, you’re not only creating a deeper human connection. You’re also setting the groundwork for pain points to hit during your pitch.
That’s a win-win!
And when you use these four techniques together, you’re going to turn into a rapport-building machine.
No One Buy’s From This Type of Sales Person | Selling Made Simple
May 16, 2022
Nobody wants to buy from a people pleaser. it’s a business killer.
Now, we all want to make other people happy. We’re social animals. And caring about the opinions of others is hardwired into our brain. It’s in our DNA.
But when you make the happiness of others your primary goal, it can lead to some pretty disastrous consequences. And that goes double, triple, and quadruple for sales reps like you.
So, how do you stop being a people pleaser?
5 Problems
5 problems with people pleasing. Why is being a people pleaser such a bad thing in sales anyway? Well first off, it leads to…
1) Wasted Time with Bad Clients
Wasted time with bad clients. People pleasers hate confrontation. And that can make it difficult, if not impossible, to cut bad clients loose early on.
The result? Tons of wasted time. Tons of wasted effort. And a buyer that sucks all the value out of you possible and then leaves you high and dry.
2) Great Relationships Are Built on Equal Value
Great relationships are built on equal value. People pleasers are notorious for being taken advantage of. And that sets the foundation for a wholly unequal relationship. When equal value isn’t brought to the table because of what’s known as covert contracts (more on that in a sec), a buyer won’t think twice about ditching on a deal at the last minute.
3) Finding the WRONG Solution
Finding the wrong solution. People pleasers are bad communicators. And as sales reps, it’s our job to connect the right buyers with the right solutions. But since a people pleaser’s so avoidant to conflict, they may end up misleading the wrong buyer to believe the solution can fix their problem rather than risk disappointing them.
And that, as you can imagine, can lead to some very serious problems.
4) Inauthenticity Breeds Contempt
Inauthenticity breeds contempt. Nobody likes a suck-up. And more importantly in sales, nobody trusts a suck-up. When you can tell someone isn’t acting authentically, the promises they make, the guarantees, the assurances—they don’t mean a thing.
And that’s enough to leave buyers heading for the hills.
5) Your Boundaries Will Suffer
Your boundaries will suffer. Perhaps the biggest problem with being a people pleaser is that others won’t respect your boundaries. You’ll tell them you need to be out of the office by 5. Yet, they’ll still ask you to stay late to help them finish up their work. And being the people pleaser you are, you’ll agree.
The problem here is your own needs will suffer. And that means you’ll be way more likely to burn out sooner.
So, how do you stop being a people pleaser?
The How to Stop People Pleasing Framework.
The How to Stop People Pleasing Framework. This framework has just three simple rules. Yep, three. That’s it. And the first one is perhaps the most important.
A) Prioritize Needs
If you don’t make your needs a priority, someone else will inevitably come along and take advantage of you. That’s just a fact. And it’s just how we’re wired.
That’s why the number one rule of the framework is to take stock of your needs and start prioritizing them.
After all, if you’re not in a good place, you won’t be able to help others as effectively.
It’s like in those airline safety videos—“Always put on your own mask before helping others during an emergency.”
But to do that, it helps to understand one of the most nefarious aspects of being a people pleaser—covert contracts.
Covert Contracts
Covert contracts are unconscious, unspoken agreements that people pleasers use to interact with everyone around them.
A people pleaser’s covert contract might look like this:
“I will do X for you, so that you will do Y for me. But I’m not going to tell you what the contract consists of. Instead, I’m going to hope that you understand what I want and I’ll get mad if you don’t deliver on it.”
The problem of course is that the contract isn’t agreed upon by both parties. And as a result, a people pleaser will often put in tons of effort only to be snubbed when it comes time to sign on.
The challenge, then, is to uncover these covert contracts and take responsibility for getting your own needs met. If you want an exchange in value, you need to be overt about this, especially to a would-be customer.
Remember, this is a business transaction, not a personal relationship. You have to understand that having your needs met in business is a part of the game. And being an adult means making your own needs a priority.
B) Shift Validation
Shift your validation. See, other people are terrible judges of the value of your own work.
They have their own lives to worry about. Their goals, their ambitions, and their endless thoughts and emotions are filling their heads every hour of the day. So if they don’t hand out the validation you’re looking for, it may not be because you aren’t worthy of it. But rather, it’s because they’re just concentrated on themselves.
If you truly want to be successful, you need to only care about how you judge yourself.
When you depend too much on others to build up your own self-worth, you’re at their mercy. You have no control over your life. And the goals you set, the dreams you have for what you can accomplish, those are all going to be under the power of someone else.
The result for you is feeling exhausted, anxious, and unfulfilled.
Worst of all, you’ll have zero control over your life and where you want to take it.
But when you shift your validation standards away from others and towards yourself, you’ll have the freedom to make decisions for yourself. And there’s nothing more empowering than that.
C) Power Words
The two most powerful words you can use in sales.
Can you guess what they are?
“Yes” and “no.”
Unclear instructions lead to uncertain results. And if you’re not clear when you say “yes” or “no” to people, it’s your fault when they pester you to do something that you don’t want to do.
When you learn to wield these two power words effectively, they’re going to help you set boundaries. Boundaries that you should never, ever waver from. And once those boundaries are set, you’re going to find yourself with more time and more energy on your hands.
Now, you should also practice eliminating the word “maybe” from your vocabulary.
Outside of job commitments, if something isn’t a “hell yeah” then it should be a no. Plain and simple. When you approach situations with this mindset, you can start weeding the low-value activities from your life and start concentrating on those that are high-impact. Like creating insightful content, filling up your buyer pipeline, and expanding your skillset.
So kill the maybes and stick to the absolutes instead.
The Pros & Cons of Working in Sales—The TRUTH | Selling Made Simple
May 13, 2022
There are few professions that match the high risk, high reward stakes of sales. For some, this is the best way to earning true financial freedom. But for others, it’s never going to be that perfect fit.
Today we’re talking about the real pros and cons of working in sales. The euphoric ups, the devastating downs, and everything in between. So if you’re thinking about joining the sales industry or just wondering if this is your right profession, this is the guide for you.
Now, let’s face it—not everyone’s cut out for sales.
Ambition, confidence, self-discipline, and not to mention plenty of grit—they’re all required if you want to make it in this industry. And even if you do have all the right qualities, long hours, difficult quotas, and a high-stress environment are typically a given.
But few other professions carry the enormous benefits of killing it in sales. And if you’re the right type of person, no other career will give you the same fulfillment and control over your on-the-job success.
The trick is knowing what to expect in this job beforehand. That way, you can make an informed decision about if this is the right job for you.
And that’s what I’m here for. Today we’re looking at the true upsides and downsides of being a sales pro. No lies and half-truths. No BS. And no holds barred.
So first off, let’s start with the pros of working in sales.
By far one of the biggest benefits is…
Pro: It’s the Quickest Way to Become a Millionaire
The money. Yep, sales can be lucrative. Incredibly lucrative if you’ve got the talent.
And when you do have that talent and, of course, a proven sales system, hitting your quotas and raking in massive commissions isn’t all that difficult.
As author and business founder Kent Billingsley told me in our interview:
“Sales is one of the professions where you can make an embarrassing amount of money and have so little responsibility.”
See, with traditional professions, your salary is capped. Sure, you may get bonuses and raises every few years. But no matter how hard you work, your end-of-year pay doesn’t change much.
But with the commissions in sales, your earning potential is unlimited. And best of all, your pay is based on your own abilities. So you are in control here, not your employer.
And that’s incredibly empowering.
Pro: Much Less Risk Than Starting a Business
It’s much less risky than starting a business yourself.
Entrepreneurship can be exciting. But it’s also risky.
About 20% of new businesses fail during their first two years. 45% go under in less than five years. And just 35% of all businesses survive past ten years.
You may make it past that point. But realistically speaking, the odds are against you.
When you work in sales, however, there are two threats to your livelihood—getting fired or your employer going under. And both are far less likely to occur than a startup failing.
Pro: Easier to Land Clients Than Going Solo
It’s easier to bring on new clients compared to if you were running your own business.
When you start your own business, you’re starting from ground zero. You’ve got to prove to potential clients that you’re worth trusting. And only then will they entertain the idea of buying from you. That can end up taking years or even decades to do.
But if you’re in a sales position at another company, you can “borrow trust” from your organization. You are a representative of a business with a proven track record, a history of clients served, and a reputation of its own.
Your own trustworthiness will impact your performance, of course. But it’s ten times easier to close if you’re working for an established brand than if you tried going it alone.
Now, the final benefit we’re talking about today is…
Pro: Job Security (If You’re Good)
Job security… if you know what you’re doing.
If you’ve got the skills, you can rest easy knowing you’ll always be employable.
Businesses are in dire need of capable sales reps these days. And while new technologies are threatening other professions, buyers will always want to speak with a real person before spending tens of thousands of dollars.
Even if you do lose your position, you’ll always be able to quickly find a new one.
You just need to make sure you’ve developed the skills necessary to make yourself marketable. Skills like those taught in the Selling Made Simple Academy.
Alright, so now that we’ve tackled the perks, let’s look at the difficulties. Now quick heads up, we’re only going to look at a few downsides here. But these negatives can be absolute dealbreakers for certain types of people.
So with that, downside number one is…
Con: You Have to Learn to Live With Rejection
You have to learn to live with rejection.
Rejection, sadly, is a given in sales. It just is.
So if you’re someone who can’t handle rejection or lets it get under your skin, sales might not be the job for you.
But you also have to be able to learn from that rejection.
Speaker, author, mentor, and sales legend Harvey J Eisenstadt put it best when he told me:
“First, nobody, and I've met thousands of wonderful salespeople in my career, nobody has a hundred percent closing ratio. The second is, rejection is part of the learning process. If you fail to make a sale, what you’ve got to do is go back to your office, sit down by your desk, analyze the sales call, and don’t say, “Why didn't the prospect buy from me?” What you’ve got to say is, “How could I have gotten the prospect to say yes?” Too many salespeople put the blame on the prospect and not on themselves. And they fail to learn from their rejection.”
In this career, you’ve got to be constantly looking for ways to grow, ways to improve, and ways to get better.
And if you can’t look at a failure and learn from it, you’ll never make it in this business.
Con: Things Get Competitive at the Middle/Bottom of the Hierarchy
Things get very competitive at the middle and bottom of the sales job hierarchy.
If you’re just starting out or can’t seem to land a position with the right company, you’ll be stuck working your butt off.
At the bottom of the hierarchy, you’ll be selling commodities. If you move up to the middle, you’ll be working with better products that you actually find useful. But there’s a tradeoff here—those useful products typically come with lots of competition. And it’s going to be tough to close when buyers can find a similar product for less of an investment.
But when you get to the top of that hierarchy—I’m talking medical devices, $100k+ software, etc.—that’s when you’ve reached the sweet spot. These are the products that change the lives of the people that buy. They’re the ones that revolutionize businesses. And they’re the ones that are more interesting, lucrative, and fulfilling to sell.
So the point here is this—you may have to spend some time working your way up in the industry. Or at least finding ways to make yourself marketable so that these higher-tier organizations want to work with you.
And you can do that by developing your skills, expanding your social network, and earning credentials that show you’ve got the right stuff.
Upselling: Your Ticket to 67% MORE Revenue | Selling Made Simple
May 11, 2022
Sales manager pushing you for more cold outreach to hit your quota? Not so fast. If you really want to start killing it, you need to shift away from new clients. And towards the ones you have now with upselling.
In fact, done right, upselling your current customers can on average increase your sales revenue by 67%!
That’s the difference between Pirus and Porsche at the end of the year when you take home your commission bonus.
unanswered emails. And eventually, eventually, all that effort could lead to a new buyer or two. Emphasis on the “could” here. Even still, you’ve got to wade through a lot of crap to get there.
But filling your pipeline with new buyers isn’t the only way to do business. In fact, focusing on maximizing value with your existing clients can make your life a hell of a lot easier.
And today, we’re talking about using upselling to do just that.
Sound good? Then let’s do it.
Why Upsell?
Why should upsell in the first place? You’ve already clinched the deal. So what’s the point of pushing things even further? Well, there are four benefits in particular here…
1. It’s Easier
It’s easier than focusing on new buyers. With new buyers, you’ve got to go through the pains of establishing trust. But with existing ones (or those who have already committed to the sale), that trust is already there.
Here’s a stat to prove my point. According to Marketing Metrics, you have just a 5 to 20% probability of successfully selling to a new prospect in most industries. 5 to 20%. If you’re selling to an existing customer though, that probability jumps to 60 to 70%. That’s an enormous increase!
So if you want to make your job selling easier, go with the existing customers. Next…
2. It Drives More Revenue
It drives more revenue. Customers spend more with the brands they’ve bought from before. To put a number on it, repeat customers spend 67% more on purchases than new customers. That’s two-thirds more!
Just think what a 67% increase in earned revenue would mean for your commissions.
3. It Instills Greater Loyalty
Upselling also instills greater loyalty. When you’ve already proven you can deliver real value, your past customers are 10X more likely to continue buying from you. After all, why go through all the hassle of finding a new vendor when you’ve already shown you’ve got the right stuff?
Now, there are clearly some very real benefits to upselling. But how do you do it? That’s where…
The Proven Product Upselling Framework
The Proven Product Upselling Framework comes in. This framework is exactly what I teach in the Selling Made Simple Academy. And it’s made up of four steps. I go into these steps in great detail inside the academy. But for today’s video, let’s go through a quick overview of each step so you can start upselling right away.
1. Document Results
Step one, gather the numbers. If you want to show a current customer that a new product has value, you’ve got to have the numbers to back it up.
When it comes to new vs. current accounts, it’s all about how you treat the status quo.
For instance, with new accounts, you want to attack the status quo. Productivity could be better. Efficiency could be better. Bottom-line earnings could be better.
But with current accounts, you’re actually attacking and defending the status quo. You’re defending it because you don’t want clients to head to your competitor. And you’re attacking it so you can convince them to upgrade to your premium product.
There are a couple of ways you can do both at once. But the best I’ve found is by sending them a value-rich quarterly report.
Now, you can check out an example of this quarterly report in the blog post found in the description of this video.
But in this report, you should include the following:
1. Your Earned Results
Your earned results.
2. Review of Previous Buying Process
A quick review of the previous buying process that reconfirms the client did their due diligence choosing you.
3. Sharing of New Industry Insights
Sharing of new industry insights to provide extra value.
4. Detailed Competitor Improvements
Detailed competitor improvements, highlighting new changes in your industry competitors.
5. Your Own Detailed Improvements
Your own detailed improvements, including new features you’ve been developing and how they compare to your competitor’s.
6. howing the Cost of Change
A section summarizing the cost of changing considering everything discussed so far. This is also a great place to start introducing your upsell products.
2. Review Changing Needs
Highlighting their changing needs. Every business grows. And as it does, needs change. It’s a part of life.
But your job is to identify those changing needs and show how your upsell product addresses those needs.
It’s time to put your research skills to work here. As the more nuanced and specific you can get, the better. If you can pinpoint some of the biggest pain points and growth opportunities your client is facing, you can leverage them to better sell your premium product.
Using “what if” scenarios here is a great sales tactic. Try getting them to vividly imagine what it would be like if they achieved their future goals using your product.
Beyond simply priming them for a “yes” answer, this technique also helps the client clearly see that something is needed to achieve those goals. And if you’ve done your job, they’ll know it’s what you’re offering.
3. Share The Risk Of No Change
Three, driving urgency. And the best way to do that is by demonstrating the risk of not switching.
Now, there are six types of risk you can leverage here. First is…
1. Physical
Physical risk. This includes dangers to your buildings, equipment, and people.
2. Strategic
Second, strategic risk. This risk type involves roadblocks to achieving organizational goals.
3. Regulatory
Third, regulatory risk. Have their compliance risks changed? How can your product reduce this new risk?
4. Operational
Next up is operational risk. Can your product reduce the new risks that now exist in the buyer’s operations that didn’t exist before?
5. Technological
Then there’s technological risk. If your buyer has increased their reliance on technology, can you reduce their new risks with your product?
6. Financial
And of course, financial risk. If your buyer has increased in size, production, or headcount since you originally sold them, has their financial risk increased? Can your product help reduce this financial risk?
Try to point out multiple types of risks your buyer faces during your upsell conversation. Two or three should get the ball rolling.
4. Instant Discount
The “coup de gras” a.k.a. the killing blow. So you’ve proven your worth with a quarterly report. You’ve highlighted the buyer’s changing needs. And you’ve outlined the risks of not changing.
What’s the trick to pushing the buyer over the edge? To finally getting that elusive “yes”?
The instant discount.
Now, this doesn’t have to only be a price discount. It can also be complimentary onboarding support, expert consultations, additional product add-ons—whatever. Get creative here.
But essentially you want to create a time-based trigger event that gets them to act now.
There are a few things you can do to ensure that trigger event is effective.
1. Avoid Fake Urgency & Scarcity
Avoid fake urgency and scarcity here. These ploys, when uncovered, only breed animosity and degrade your client’s loyalty (a death sentence for your rapport).
2. Don’t Get Too Flashy
Don’t get too flashy. Too many buzzwords and urgency pushes will rub buyers the wrong way. Instead, be clear, confident, and respectful. Remember, you’re offering value, not trying to meet a quota.
3. Personalize If You Can
Personalize if you can. If you’re only cutting a deal or giving a unique discount with them, let them know. And tie back the deal (for example, lower price) to the client’s goals (like coming in on budget).
4. Keep the Pressure On (To an Extent)
Lastly, keep the pressure on, to an extent that is. There’s nothing wrong with sending a few helpful reminders that your trigger event is ending soon. Just be careful of getting too pushy here.
With the right trigger event, your buyer won’t have any other choice but to say yes to your premium upsell.
Guess What? Future You Is Pissed... | Selling Made Simple
May 09, 2022
Most salespeople barely hit quota. And I admit, that used to be me too. It wasn’t until I started doing one very unexpected thing that my income started to explode…
I got unreasonable. And today’s video is all about why you too need to start acting a little less reasonably.
Now, I’m 35. I’ve lived a solid ⅓ of my life already. And if there’s one thing I’ve learned over my career in sales, it’s that you don’t have time to waste if you want to reach any reasonable level of success.
Like, none. No kidding. Success at anything, anything, takes a decade at a minimum. Tough to hear, right?
It’s sad but it’s true.
And the longer you commit to doing the same thing everyone else is doing, following the same rules, living up to the same expectations, and being the same unremarkable, everyday sales rep, the less time you have to become truly successful.
If you want to bust out from the pack, you’ve got to be different. You’ve got to defy the norms holding everyone else back. And you’ve got to start being unreasonable.
Today we’re talking about 5 ways to start busting expectations and living a little less reasonably.
And once you do follow them, you can thank me a decade from now when you’ve become the person you always dreamed of being.
1) Get Busy
Get busy. This one’s a tough one to swallow. But as hard as it is to hear it, you’re going to have to work harder. Yeah yeah, there’s the typical 9 to 5. And a lot of people—the majority of people—clock out and forget about their job.
That’s the reasonable approach.
But if you want any chance of wild success, you’ve got to put in the hours. Now don’t worry—eventually you’ll be able to cut back. After you’ve built a solid foundation for yourself.
But in the beginning, you need time to test what works. To see what doesn’t. And to find your process and path to success.
So buckle up. No one ever said success was easy.
2) Get Lazy
Threw you for a loop there, didn’t I? “Will, isn’t that the exact opposite of what you just said?”
Well hold on a sec. After you put in the work, it’s time to get strategically lazy. As soon as you start seeing results, the next step is to double down on the pieces that give you the best results. Find the 20% of effort that is getting you 80% of the results and double down.
Are 95% of leads coming from emails 5 and 6 of your 3-month outreach? Chop off the rest and build out from those.
Are 4 out of 5 of your clients just one business sector? Start putting all your efforts there instead.
And once you’ve started seeing your results level off, it’s time to restart the process. Find the 20% within that, and then the 20% in that, again and again.
The more you refine, the more you can start making tiny changes and seeing huge results.
3) Get Mean
Now, you’ve heard the saying “You are the average of the 5 people that you spend the most time with”? Well, there’s science to back this up too.
Did you know most people earn between +/- 20% of what their parents earn? Or that with the right people in your circle, you’re scientifically proven to have more self-control, make wiser investments, and even feel less stress?
Your social and professional circle matters. It matters a hell of a lot.
And if you want to be successful, you need to ditch people who aren’t progressing at the same speed you are.
Yep, they’ll probably be pissed. Yep, they’ll say you’re being unreasonable. And they’re right—you are. But that’s a good thing.
4) Get Zen
Get zen. No matter what your spiritual leanings are, there’s something incredibly valuable behind the Buddhist way of living. And that’s minimalism.
The better you are at incorporating minimalism, the more successful you’re going to be.
Now I’m not saying you should live in a white room with a mattress on the floor and no cutlery…
Instead think about this definition of minimalism –
Expert Note:
“Remove anything that doesn’t help you become the person that you want to be”
Will Barron
Founder of Salesman.org
I did this recently. I stopped recording This Week In Sales, the weekly podcast that I did with sales legend Victor Antonio.
It was a great idea at first. But eventually, I realized it wasn’t helping me live the life I wanted to live. So even though I enjoyed doing it, Victor and I decided it was time to call it a day.
It was one of the best decisions I’ve made in a long time. Doing so has freed up a massive amount of time and headspace for me to take on exciting new projects. And I regret nothing.
5) Get Strong
Not physically strong. Though there are definitely benefits to that too.
But rather, socially strong. Mentally strong. By being assertive.
Most people are weak. They’re pushed around by their boss, their family, and their partner. They’re scared of saying no.
Now, there’s nothing wrong with wanting to keep the people important to you happy. But when that happiness comes at the expense of your own, you're laying the groundwork for an unhealthy relationship. And the only light at the end of that tunnel is when that shoddy relationship ends.
Instead, learn to set clear boundaries with people. And if they’re crossed, be assertive with your explanations of what you will and won’t accept.
Yes, you can keep bending over backward to be a people pleaser. But if you do, you’ll never live up to your true potential. And you’ll never achieve the success you’ve always wanted.
64% of Sales Rep Anxiety Comes from THIS | Selling Made Simple
May 06, 2022
64% of sales professionals are scared of picking up the phone and calling prospects cold. And if you’re like so many other reps out there, you’re not a fan of cold calling either.
But in today’s video, we’re looking at why cold calling has reps shaking in their boots. And most importantly, how you can kick that fear right where the sun don’t shine.
Now, like I said, nearly 2 out of 3 reps hate cold calling—64% in fact according to our SalesCode Assessment. But what’s really going on here? Why is this simple practice so damn scary?
Well, it all boils down to biology. As social animals, we’re built to crave the approval of our peers. And if we don’t get that approval and are rejected, it’s painful. No really, we feel rejection in the same exact spot of the brain that process physical pain.
And as anyone who’s cold called knows, rejection happens quite a bit. So it makes sense we’d be anxious about it.
Now, the trick is finding ways to overcome that biological fear of rejection. Ways of rewiring the brain to make cold calling less scary. And that’s exactly what we’re talking about today.
With these four techniques, you can say so long to cold calling fears. And start finding more buyers so you can close more deals. It’s as simple as that.
1) Make Fear Your Friend
We all get nervous sometimes. Whether we’re jumping out of a plane or just trying a new restaurant, a little bit of anxiety is natural when facing the unknown. It’s what you do with that fear that makes a difference.
One thing I’ve found incredibly helpful for overcoming fear is immerse myself in it. You know, really feel the sensations it causes. The racing heart, the sweaty palms.
Once that’s done, it’s time for a bit of mental gymnastics. Instead of thinking of these sensations as fear, I relabel them as excitement.
See, biologically, fear and excitement are incredibly similar. They both are meant to prepare your body and mind for action. And the symptoms—rush of adrenaline, increased heart rate—are the same.
So instead of seeing this as fear, flip it. Think of it as excitement. And then use that reframing to help you act. This will let you stay consistent with your cold calling. And who knows, you may even start looking forward to it!
2) Rethink Your Coping Behaviors
Now, this one comes directly from our Social Anxiety Framework from the Selling Made Simple Academy. So if you want an even deeper dive, be sure to head to Salesman.org and get signed up.
But just as a brief overview, if you want to eliminate cold calling anxiety, you need to start with your coping behaviors.
To explain, anxiety is caused by getting caught in a cycle, a loop. First, there’s an inciting event that triggers your anxiety response. Then you use ineffective coping behaviors to treat that anxiety. Maybe you hide in the bathroom to avoid cold calling. Or you pick up the phone and pretend to dial numbers.
No matter what that coping behavior is, it eventually has consequences. You fall behind on your numbers. Your boss finds out. Whatever. And once that happens, your anxiety sparks up again, restarting the whole cycle over again.
But you can in fact break this cycle. All you have to do is change your coping behaviors. There are two coping behaviors I’ve found are super helpful.
A) Shift Your Attention
Shifting your attention. When you’re anxious, the more focused you are on your inward feelings, the worse things get.
So next time you feel yourself starting to panic, try shifting your focus to something else. Concentrate on your environment around you. What do you see? What do you smell and hear?
Think about the people you’re interacting with. What are they thinking and feeling?
The more you take the spotlight off yourself, the calmer you’ll be.
B) Get Curious
Getting curious. Whenever I feel anxiety starting to creep in, I consciously force myself to get extremely curious.
When you force yourself to be incredibly curious, there is little processing room or overhead left in your brain for it to focus inward on your own anxiety. And so, rather than getting caught up in your own thoughts, you become completely immersed in the person in front of you.
How can you give them value, help them through a situation, or better your relationship? What are the pain points they’re experiencing right now? How would solving them help?
Best of all, getting curious makes you feel better and lets your buyer know you’re focused on them. And typically, they’ll appreciate the attention.
3) The Bodybuilder Mindset
Sales is a numbers game. And getting good at sales is too. The more you commit to doing the hard work, putting in those reps, the easier things will get.
It’ll be tough at first, I know. Just like your first day ever in the gym is going to leave you crushed. But every time after that, you’re going to be stronger than the day before.
So instead of giving up after a bad call, commit to getting the reps done. 40, 70, 100 calls—whatever. Just make sure you do itevery day.
You’ll find your groove eventually, I can guarantee it.
And finally, the last fear-busting cold calling technique is…
4) Start Playing Video Games
Start playing video games. No, not real ones. Though if you’re actually able to get your hands on a PS5, send me a message (wink).
No I mean start treating your cold calling like a video game session. Make it your goal to see how far you can get on each call. Try new techniques like adjusting your tone or speed to see how it affects your success rate.
You can even create a call script that takes on-the-fly guesswork out of the equation entirely.
And don’t forget—if you lose the call, you don’t die. You just respawn and get to try again!
5 Ways You’re SCARING Away Buyers | Selling Made Simple
May 04, 2022
I hate to break it to you, but if your leads aren’t buying, the problem isn’t with them. It’s with you.
In today’s video, we’re looking at 5 reasons your leads just won’t bite. And 5 things you can do to fix it.
Now, one of the most important lessons you’re ever going to learn in this business is the value of self-sufficiency.
Best-selling author Nina Purewal told me once…
“One of the big things in sales is you can't control how people are going to react to you. You can only control what you put out there.”
SP #697 – Let That Sh*t Go And Reduce Your Sales Stress Nina Purewal
You’re going to run into a lot of different people over the course of your career. Some of them will be a match. And some of them won’t.
But for those that are and still aren’t buying, the problem is you.
Agh, hurts doesn’t it? Well don’t worry—there are steps you can take to fix those problems. And that’s what we’re looking at today. 5 reasons people aren’t buying from you and 5 solutions.
So let’s start with a big one…
1. They’re Only Halfway There
Now, in B2B sales, a lot of the decision making depends on logic. Does this product meet our requirements? Is the price within our budget? Can we implement on our schedule?
But if you’re only appealing to the logic side of things, you’re missing out on a super valuable opportunity.
Because in reality, most sales actually start with emotion. The buyer makes an emotional commitment to buy first and then justifies with logic. Maybe that emotion is that they want to be respected by their colleagues. Or they’re looking for ways to catch the eye of the C-suite. No matter what they’re after, the emotion, the feel, comes first. And when you appeal to that emotional side, you’re setting yourself up for a win.
But there’s more.
If you’re only using logic in your pitches, it actually makes it easier for the buyer to dismiss taking action. “We’ll circle back to this next year once the economy settles down,” they’ll say.
But if you can attach emotion to the purchase too, it’s like tying down a boat with two ropes instead of one. Once the storm comes, you’ll be less likely to lose it to sea.
So be sure you’re hitting those emotional pain points too, not just the logical ones.
2. They’re Unqualified
A hard truth of sales is that most of the leads you talk to just aren’t qualified. Sure, they’ll give you their time. Maybe they’ve even come through your funnel as an inbound lead so you think they’re a fit. But once you get several steps into the sales process, you’ll realize that every interaction up till now has been a huge waste of time.
It’s frustrating, I know.
But if you do a bit more work qualifying upfront, you can avoid that hassle altogether.
Now, the Selling Made Simple Academy’sSales Diagnosis Framework explores how to cover all your bases while qualifying leads. So if you’re interested, I’d suggest enrolling today.
But as a quick overview, you need to be assessing leads for:
Pain. Are they in pain? Is their issue actually a problem?
Time. What’s their timeline? Are they thinking today? This quarter? Or in the next few years?
Fit. Are they a fit for what you’re selling? Can you really fix this buyer’s problem?
Return. Does the value of your solution outweigh the difficulties of implementing it? Will they see a reasonable return?
Process. Is your buyer willing to adapt to your process? Will they put in the time, say, training to get the most value out of your product?
Budget. Can they afford it?
Champion. Is there someone else that you should be talking to that will champion this deal? And last…
Agreement. Did they give you their verbal commitment to work together if you can solve their problem?
Again, if you’re interested in learning more about this framework, head to Salesman.org today and enroll.
3. They Don’t Trust You
Simple question for you here—if you got a phone call one day and surprise! It was you on the other end pitching your product, would you trust yourself? I mean really trust yourself?
There’s a lot of hot air and shady tactics in some circles of sales. And if you’re using exaggeration or outright lies with your buyers, that needs to stop today.
Because that kind of crap is devastating your trust value.
But if not, the problem might just be that you don’t have enough social proof on your side. So to build up that trust, there are a few things you can do.
A) Borrow Trust
Borrow trust from your company. Provide buyers with case studies, testimonials, and endorsements your company’s earned in the past.
B) Bolster Your Reputation
Bolster your reputation by building an expansive professional network. And start producing valuable thought leadership content.
C) Share Insights
Share insights rather than cold spamming. People respond to value, not pestering.
If you can do all that, you’ll be 10X more likely to win the trust of your buyers.
4. They’re Being Held Back
They’re being held back by the most notorious barriers to implementation ever—the status quo.
Sometimes the burden of getting started is enough to stop buyers from committing to the deal. There’s always going to be growing pains. And onboarding issues, fighting for budget, reputation risk, and lack of trust are all objections that, left unaddressed, can kill your deal.
That’s why it’s up to you to help your buyer overcome those barriers.
If they have onboarding concerns, offer them support during implementation. If it’s the budget, provide c-suite focused materials that outline your product’s cost benefits. If it’s reputation and trust, point to your proven track record or other social proof.
You are responsible for equipping your buyer with what they need to forget about those objections. And the better you are at doing that, the more likely you’ll be to get a yes.
5. You’ve Got Commission Breath
You’ve got commission breath. What is commission breath, you ask?
It’s desperation. It’s bullshit. Or it’s a mix of both.
If all you’re thinking about is raking in that commission, I’ve got bad news for you…
YOUR BUYER CAN TELL!
They’re not idiots. They can smell that crap a mile away.
And if you don’t really, truly believe in your product…
If the only thing you’re concerned with is a paycheck…
Then there’s no way in hell you’re going to make the sale.
So, what’s the solution here? Well, you can either find a product you care about, change your focus to providing real value, or, well… get out of the business.
Tough pill to swallow, I know. But hey, sometimes the truth hurts!
5 Tips To Become The BEST Salesperson | Selling Made Simple
Apr 30, 2022
Don’t know what you’re doing in sales? You’ll be living paycheck to paycheck. Knocking it out of the park? You could earn your first million in just a few years time.
So what separates the two? Well, it turns out it’s just five simple strategies. Yep, just five! And those five strategies are exactly what we’re talking about today.
Now, maybe my favorite thing about being in the sales industry is your earning potential is directly tied to your abilities.
If you rock at what you do, you can literally make millions in this career. But if you’re not so great, well… it can really be tough to make a decent living.
If you find yourself in the latter camp, don’t worry—all hope’s not lost.
There are some very simple changes you can make to massively boost your chances of success in this industry. And today, we’re talking about five of the best ones I’ve found.
So listen up, stay tuned, and get ready to take your selling power to the next level.
1) Have a Simple Sales Process
Feeling overwhelmed every day? Lost? Like you’re working your butt off but never really going anywhere? It’s because you don’t have an effective and defined sales process.
Now, I’ve covered what a winning sales process looks like in videos before. But just as a quick overview, your sales process should look something like this:
A) Understand the Market
You’re never going to get anywhere if you don’t understand your buyers and your solution. And that means…
Honing your value proposition and tailoring it to your ideal buyer.
Understanding your buyer’s journey.
And nailing down the numbers. Sales is a numbers game. And the better you are at tracking and playing to those numbers, the more money you’ll stand to make.
B) Get in Front of Buyers
Get in front of buyers.
What methods are you using to get in touch with prospects? If you’re doing things right, your outreach should include not just cold email and cold calling, but also a healthy dose of social selling on platforms like LinkedIn.
You’ll also need to fine-tune your sales cadences so you’re reaching out to buyers at the right time and keeping them interested.
C) Explain the Value
Explaining the value.
The best outreach campaigns in the world won’t do a thing if you can’t effectively communicate your product’s value. That means mastering your discovery call, delivering effective demos, upselling and closing like a pro, and knowing how to takeover competitor clients.
And that leads us neatly into selling strategy number 2…
2) Become a Master Implementer
Knowing how to sell doesn’t—excuse the French—mean a damn thing if you don’t implement it.
High performers are master implementers. They have the skills, mindset, and traits needed to kill it day in and day out. And if you don’t cultivate those traits yourself, it’s going to be tough to get a leg up in this business.
Wondering how you stack up? Take our Sales Code Assessment to see if you’ve got what it takes or if you need a bit of work.
3) Simplify EVERYTHING
Humans are naturally drawn to the path of least resistance. But for some reason, we don’t apply that inclination to our sales processes. And that means we’re working harder than we need to be.
So instead of falling into that trap, find the 20% of your sales process that delivers 80% of the results. And once you do, cut the rest of it.
Let me show you what I mean.
If the majority of your sales leads are coming from just one channel, double down on that channel and ignore the others.
If two of your emails in your 30-day sales cadence lead to most of your calls booked, get rid of everything else.
The more you simplify your process, the more time you can spend on closing deals and bringing in more, better prospects.
Alright so the next strategy I hinted at earlier. It addresses a major myth that’s continually holding sales reps back from achieving killer numbers and crushing their quotas month after month.
4) The 20-Mile March
Now, does this sound like you?
Last month you were king of the world when it came to your numbers. But this month, you’re behind. Way behind. So you make up for the dip by hitting it hard. You’re prospecting like crazy. You’re sending hundreds of emails a day. And you’re cold calling so much your ears are starting to hurt from being pressed against the phone for so long.
Each month is a new battle. And the rollercoaster ups and downs never seem to stop.
Sound familiar?
If so, don’t worry, we’ve all been there.
But the truth of the matter is sales doesn’t have to be like that. Bit of a shocker, huh?
Instead, you can follow what’s known as the 20 Mile March concept.
This concept, created by business authors Jim Collins and Morten T. Hansen, centers on consistency. In their book, they found that the leading enterprises, the ones that performed ten times better, than the competition, valued consistency above all else.
And the more consistent you can be in sales, think prospecting every single day from 8 to 10, the more successful you’re bound to be.
The secret isn’t innovation, creativity, or flexibility. It’s consistency. Fanatic consistency.
And if you can develop that unwavering discipline, you’re going to earn 10X more than you thought possible in this business.
5) Keep to One Mentor at a Time
Now, I used to read countless books, be 20% of the way through five different sales courses, and have a bunch of unofficial mentors that I listened to each day. And what it got me was no real system and a bunch of conflicting ideas.
Instead of doing that, learn from my mistake and stick with just one mentor or trainer at a time.
Don’t try to do it all at once because you’ll only end up confused, procrastinating, and exhausted.
Now we actually cater to this strategy in our Selling Made Simple training academy. You can sign up, leverage our tools, follow our systems, and get real, all-inclusive mentoring right in one place.
No jumping back and forth between so-called “sales gurus.” And no conflicting ideas banging around in your head all at once.
Our students love it. And I think you will too.
So implement it all, crush your quota, and then—only then—test the next system and improve your skills.
What Is B2B Lead Generation Anyway? | Selling Made Simple
Apr 25, 2022
Leads are the lifeblood of any business. And if you’re in sales, bringing them in isn’t just important. It’s your whole job!
But what is B2B lead generation and why is it so essential?
We’re tackling all that and more today. And be sure to stick around because we’re also going to talk about how you can finally stop chasing those leads and bring them to your door instead.
Leads come in, they learn about your products, and you show them why what you have to offer is the perfect solution to their problems.
But bringing those leads in is easier said than done. In fact, HubSpot found that a whopping 61% of sales professionals think lead generation is their biggest challenge. Bigger than staying motivated. Bigger than beating out the competition. And bigger even than closing—yep, seriously.
What Is B2B Lead Generation?
Essentially, B2B lead generation is a business’s ability to identify and attract customers that are a good fit for the products or services. These businesses sell primarily to other businesses rather than consumers—hence the B2B.
Qualify Leads
One, qualify leads. Because not everyone is going to be a good fit for what you’re selling. And…
Drive Action
Get those leads to take action and start moving them through the sales process.
Now that leads us up to the next question…
Where Does Lead Gen Fit in the Sales Funnel?
As you might’ve already guessed, lead generation starts at the very tip top of the sales funnel. If you don’t know, the sales funnel looks a bit like this:
Prospects move through awareness, discovery, evaluation, and intent before making a purchase decision. And as they move through each stage, they learn more about their problem, your solutions, and how they’ll help your prospect better their business.
Now funnels will differ slightly among industries, with some stages being longer or shorter than others. But when it comes to lead generation, it’s always at the very very top. Your company reaches out to leads, qualify them, and guide them through the other stages of the funnel.
Makes sense, right?
For many companies, marketing handles a lot of the outreach. But if you’re a savvy and success-minded sales rep, you need to be engaging in plenty of lead generation yourself too.
Okay okay, but important question here…
Why Is B2B Lead Generation Important?
Why do you need to be adding to your workload by reaching out to new leads? Can’t marketing handle it?
Well, there are two big benefits to making lead gen a priority in your daily to-do task list.
It Generates New Leads
Duh—it generates new leads.
In addition to the leads sent to you by marketing, you’re adding a new stream of potential sales. It fills your funnel and gives you a better chance at hitting your targets and making more money.
Another incredibly important benefit is that…
It Gives You Control
It puts the control in your hands.
You are in control of the sales process. You are the driver of whether you’re coming out ahead this month or falling behind. And you get to make sure your prospects are getting the attention, information, and guidance they need throughout the buyer’s journey rather than relying on someone else to create a good first impression.
The power is in your hands. And that alone is reason enough to start your own B2B lead generation efforts.
Now let’s talk a bit about terminology.
SQl vs. MQL—What’s the Difference?
If you’ve spent any time in sales you’ve likely heard the terms “SQL” and “MQL” thrown around before. So SQL vs. MQL, what’s the difference?
Marketing Qualified Leads
These are the leads that marketing has flagged as going through the initial stages of qualification. Maybe they downloaded a content offer or reached out to the marketing team.
Basically, they’ve showed a little bit of interest in what it is you’re selling. And as such, they haven’t yet gone through all the necessary qualification standards to determine if they’re a perfect fit for your company.
Sales Qualified Leads
Sales qualified leads. These are leads your sales team has determined are worth pursuing. And they’re typically a bit better qualified for the products or services you’re selling. That’s because you or another rep has confirmed that they’re interested, or at least gotten more buy-in than a simple download or a question sent to marketing.
SQLs are the ideal. And when you as a sales rep engage in B2B lead gen, your goal is to create more SQLs—individuals that are a good fit for your products, have shown interest, and are likely to end their journey by buying your product.
So the question is…
How Do We Create SQL’s?
How do we create SQL’s?
What can we do to fill our pipeline with leads that are more qualified, more likely to buy, and less likely to eat up all our time?
Well, there are two ways.
We Qualify MQL’s
One, we qualify MQL’s. Taking MQLs on hook line and sinker without further qualification is a recipe for disaster. While some qualification has already taken place, it often isn’t enough to determine if a lead is actually going to be a good fit.
Instead, you need to do some qualifying yourself by digging a bit deeper. What’s the real problem they’re trying to solve? How does their budget stack up to your implementation costs? Are they even the decision maker here?
Your discovery call is going to be the best place to get this info. But even with a few back and forth emails, you can better parse out those that are a fit and those that aren’t.
Now, the other option is…
Cold Outreach
Cold outreach. We bring in the leads ourselves.
This is where the rubber really meets the road. And if you aren’t engaging in B2B lead generation yourself, you’re missing out on an incredibly valuable source of customers and, of course, commissions.
Cold outreach is all about the cadences. Cold email, social selling, cold calling—these are the activities that generate results. And these are the activities that, when incorporated into your weekly and even daily processes, are going to fill your pipeline with more SQLs and help you skyrocket your numbers.
Now, I’ve talked about how to get the best results from these practices plenty of times in past videos. So if you want to dive deeper into each, be sure to check out our library and subscribe so you don’t miss a beat.
How To Cold Email Clients (BEST Cold Email Template) | Selling Made Simple
Apr 23, 2022
You can’t expect to get far in sales if you aren’t at least a little skilled at crafting cold emails.
So, what gets your prospects to click? How do you create subject lines that consistently earn solid open rates? And what do you need to include in your body copy to drive action?
That’s exactly what we’re talking about today—how to cold email clients. And along the way, we’ll look at some of the best cold email templates I’ve used with spectacular results.
Now, email—it’s how business gets done these days.
Of course, cold calling still has a place in any sales rep’s cadences. And social selling is on the up and up, especially if you’re particularly savvy on platforms like LinkedIn.
The problem is, effective cold emails are notoriously hard to craft. With the massive amount of junk mail, spam, and otherwise useless crap that fills our inboxes every day, it can be tough to make sure your email stands out from the crowd.
So, what does it take to craft cold emails that earn opens and drive action? What does a great cold email look like? And what are some winning templates you can start using today?
Don’t worry—we’re covering all this and more right now.
1: Get Their Attention
Perhaps the most important step of any cold email outreach campaign is to first get your prospect’s attention with a great subject line.
Now, there’s a right way and a wrong way to do this.
On the one hand, you can get your market’s attention through gimmicks. Stupid things. Extreme things. These can grab the eye of your buyer. But this tactic comes with the tradeoff of reducing confidence in your abilities as a solution provider—no one wants to buy from a clown.
The other technique is to grab attention while still remaining professional. This, of course, takes a bit more tact to pull off correctly. But when done well, it accomplishes the dual effect of building both intrigue and trust.
So what are some subject line structures that get attention while still maintaining trust? Well, there are four in particular that I use…
A) Direct Subject Lines
Direct headlines state the sales proposition directly. No wordplay. No hidden meanings. And no fancy bits stuck on the end. Just straight-to-the-point zero BS.
A direct subject line might look like this:
“The world’s fastest CRM tool – 20% off today”
B) News Subject Lines
This is a great option if you have an update about your product or service. It could be the introduction of a new product, a change in the law or legislation that affects your customers using your product, or something else newsworthy that’s along these lines.
It could even be industry news like a company merger or emerging competitor.
A winning news subject line looks as simple as this:
“X law has moved on. Have you?”
C) “How To” Subject Lines
The words “how-to” are magic in email subject lines. “How to” headlines offer the promise of solid information, sound advice, and solutions to problems. And prospects find them especially clickworthy when they talk about a problem they’re facing at the moment.
This subject line might look like this:
“How to reduce your ad spend in 14 days”
D) Question Subject Lines
Careful here— To be effective, question headlines must include a question that the person receiving the email will either empathize with or would love to see answered.
A solid one may be:
“Is [X] costing you more than it should?”
Now that you’ve got them opening your email, it’s time to build the emails body.
2: Story email structure
How can you actually help? What can you offer to solve your buyer’s problems? And why should they spend their valuable time hearing what you have to say?
Whereas the attention-getter mainly happens in the subject line, this step of the framework should be handled in the body of your cold email. It takes a bit longer to really flesh out, so a mere seven words—the ideal subject line length—isn’t going to do this step justice.
Now, one of the best ways to demonstrate that need is by using…
The Story Telling Framework
The goal of the story telling framework is to…
Highly their Current Reality – Acknowledge where the prospect is now.
Show their Future Reality – Show them where they could be.
Give the Reality Bridge – Identify the steps they need to take to get there, a.k.a. the “Reality Bridge.”
Here’s what that might look like in practice.
Hi [NAME],
I recently worked with [NAME], he is in the [INDUSTRY] like you.
Traditional salespeople had failed [NAME]. Here is his story – [LINK TO INSIGHT POST]
He went from zero motivation, to proactively racing to get to his desk each morning to prospect.
All by implementing proven frameworks to relieve the pressure of choice from his job.
Does it make sense to jump on a quick call to see if you can use these frameworks too?
Cheers,
Will
Current reality / Desired future reality / Reality bridge
See how that all works?
Here we have the current reality, the desired future reality, and the reality bridge, all within just a few lines.
It’s simple stuff. But it’s wildly effective.
3: Call to Action
It isn’t enough to just say hello to a prospect. You’ve also got to get them to take the next step. Setting up a discovery call is usually the right way to go here. So tell them how to do it and make it especially easy on them too.
Doing so is simple too. Just ask them at the end, “Does it make sense to jump on a quick call to see if we can…” and then add the desired outcome. It can be “increase your sales”, “boost your team’s efficiency”, “reduce your costs”—whatever.
I’ve seen fantastic results with this templated call to action. And I even teach it to my students as part of our Closing Framework.
It’s to the point. It’s unassuming. And it’s damn effective too.
Alright, so let’s see what all this looks like when we put the four steps together.
That’s all it takes!
And when you cater this template to your industry, you can start seeing fantastic open and response rates too.
The Psychology of the Perfect Cold call | Salesman Podcast
Apr 22, 2022
On this episode of the Salesman Podcast, Chris Beall explains the exact process to start a successful cold call and the mindset you need to be in to make it stick.
Chris has led software start-ups as a founder or early-stage developer for the last 30 years. He is currently CEO of ConnectAndSell, and hosts a podcast which you can find at MarketDominanceGuys.com.
You'll learn:
Sponsored by:
Free SalesCode assessment
Learn your strengths and weaknesses in an instant. Taken by over 10,000+ of your competitors. Don't get left behind.
Take the free assessment
Featured on this episode:
Host - Will Barron
Founder of Salesman.org
Guest - Chris Beall
CEO of Connect And Sell
Hi, my name is Will, and welcome to today's episode of the Salesman Podcast. On today's show, we're looking at the psychology of the perfect cold call with our guest Chris Beall. Chris has led software startups as a founder or early stage developer for the last 30 years. He's currently the CEO of ConnectAndSell and host a podcast, which you can find over at marketdominanceguys.com with that, Chris, welcome to the show.
Chris Beall:
Hey Will, great to be here.
Cold Calling is Alive Again · [00:30]
Will Barron:
I'm glad to have you on mate. So this is a, I think I'm going totally sidetracked from what I was going to talk about. We'll go down a different avenue for 30 seconds and then we'll get it back onto the psychology of the cold call, but it seems like it was in fashion two or three years ago, whether it's on social media, whether it's sales training, whatever it is to start to say, cold calling is nonsense, cold calling no longer works. People don't want to be cold called and obviously cold calling is effective when used in the right way, which we'll talk about in this show, but have you found that these conversations and these premises and these debates of whether cold calling is effective or not, it's kind of died down over the last 12 months. I really feel like that narrative has almost disappeared.
Chris Beall:
Yeah, I think it has. Email is the thing that's gotten hammered over the last 12 months because COVID came along and I think the rational response to it was, well, let's send a million emails and the problem is a million emails create a lot of noise. And I think that's really what has driven a resurgence of interest in having conversations.
Most Salespeople Don’t Cold Call Because They Like Hiding Behind Emails · [01:34]
Will Barron:
I agree. I agree. I feel like it's almost, well, it's not almost, it's definitely easier to spam crappy emails and hide behind your inbox than it is to do the hard work of using ConnectAndSell to make the [inaudible 00:01:47] easier I guess. But the actual calls itself is somewhat labour intensive. If you're doing it correctly, I think it's fair to say is brain intensive. You having to think, you're having to engage your conversational skills, you're having to do a little bit of work there as well. So I think it's people have leveraged some of these automated tools to hide behind email, whereas you can't really hide behind a cold call. Can you?
“Gresham's law of business communications says that bad money drives out good money. So counterfeit money drives good money out of circulation because people hide the good money. And I think noisy communication, cheap communication like email, the bad ones, the spammy ones, drive the good ones out of circulation. And so you have to switch to a different currency.” – Chris Beal · [02:17]
Chris Beall:
No, you can't. It's kind of interesting, I call it Gresham's law of business communications, Gresham's law, most people probably don't know it. Hopefully they don't, but it says bad money drives out good. So counterfeit money drives good money out of circulation because people hide the good money. And I think noisy communication, cheap communication like email, the bad ones, the spammy ones, drive the good ones out of circulation. And so you have to switch to a different currency. And so I think that's, it's not so much hard work with ConnectAndSells an example, it's easy. You push a button and talk to somebody. How hard is that? But it's hard to bring yourself to push the button and that's rational because you're at that moment agreeing with yourself that you're going to ambush somebody and they're not going to like it.
Chris Beall:
So now what? I think that's actually the hump we have to get over. Our fears peak around the fear of exile and in the environment of evolution in the village, exile was the worst. Exile was worse than death, always it has been in human society forever. And when we decide to ambush somebody and frighten them, annoy them, do something bad to them, we are actually risking something worse than death inside of our bodies. We feel it. And we don't want to push that button so that's the hard work. And then getting skilled at it is in a way, once you get over the first part, you can agree with yourself that you're going to develop the skills, but then the brain work is way inside your brain. The cortical stuff, where you're thinking, not worth very much in a cold call. There's not a lot of thinking to be done.
Chris Beall:
I remember listening to Cherryl Turner who works at ConnectAndSell, she's perhaps the greatest cold caller in the world. Certainly the best I've ever heard. And when Helen and I, my fiance and I, were listening to her, as I mentioned in the pre-show, we're kind of nerdy, we do nerdy things. So we were just listening to a bunch of Cherryl conversations, because Helen is a big strategic seller. So she doesn't do any cold calling. And she said, “You know what's interesting? Is there are millisecond level emotional pivots that Cherryl uses in her cold calls even though the words stay the same.” That's the hard work.
People Don’t Like Being Cold Called So Don’t Waste Their Time · [04:35]
Will Barron:
So I want to get into, we'll dive back into that. I made a note down here to come back to that later in the show Chris because I guess that's more advanced level stuff. Let's start from the foundational side of this and build our way back up to that. And you mentioned, and I don't know if you did this very specifically or if it was more kind of in passing, but you used specifically the word ambush and you were quite heavy handed in the way you were describing what happens most, not all the time, but most of the time when we make a dial to someone. Do you purposefully think about and almost teach and describe cold calling in that matter, in that way that you are ambushing someone to make it real for people when they are picking up the phone? Is there a reason why you use those words specifically?
Chris Beall:
Yeah, there is. So first of all, when you dial, nothing happens most of the time, you end up up in their voicemail, which is, so what? Anybody can leave a voicemail, but when you get somebody and they answer, you've ambushed them, they made a mistake. They were not intending to speak with you. I mean, think about it, otherwise you wouldn't be cold calling them. It's just kind of simple math. So I use the word ambush to make it clear that the psychological beginning of the cold call for the other party is that they don't like it. And here's the point. It's not that, I'm not saying, hey, this is a big deal, steal yourself for it. What I'm really saying is, and we get into this in the psychology of the cold call. What I'm saying is that is a great place to start because it's predictable and because it lets you do something for this person immediately.
“A cold call is a great place to start because it's predictable and because it lets you do something for this person immediately. And if you can get in a relationship with somebody where you can do something useful for them, something emotionally useful for them as the very first thing you do within a relationship, you've got a pretty good chance of creating trust.” – Chris Beal · [06:02]
Chris Beall:
And if you can get in a relationship with somebody where you can do something useful for them, something emotionally useful for them as the very first thing you do within a relationship, you've got a pretty good chance of creating trust. And so that's why I call it an ambush. Because one, it is an ambush. It really is. Let's face it. And two, until you face it, you can't behave correctly in the first seven seconds of the conversation. You don't have the right mindset for saying what you need to say, how you need to say it in these very, very delicate moments that are there for the taking. And if you blow it, you blown it. For the rest of your life, you've blown it. That relationship is not going to flower. Whereas if you do it right in that first seven seconds, as long as you never blow up, this person will trust you for the rest of their life.
Chris Beall:
That's a pretty big pivot point in a relationship, but how do you get your head in the right place to know what to do? It's kind of saying, this will be for American baseball fans. If you want to play Major League Baseball, you have to be a will stand in there against a Major League curve ball, which appears to be coming right at you. If you don't admit that it feels like it's coming right at you, you'll be crashing to the ground and bailing out or you'll be bravely standing there to get hit by fast balls, one or the other. You got to recognise the situation as it is in order to be able to use that truth, the truth of the situation in order to do the right thing.
This is The Absolute Worst That Could Happen When You Cold Call Someone · [08:00]
Will Barron:
Got it. I love it. And I love the way you're not glossing over this. Now I try and do this as our training as well because there's a lot of sales trainings out there that talk about tricks or hacks or ways to almost beat the psychological trauma, and I'm using that kind of, that's too strong a way to describe it. But there is an element of, oh crap. I am potentially annoying someone here when they immediately pick up the phone and a lot of people try and gloss over that. And I think if you just be realist about it, it makes it a lot easier because the flip side of that is even though you might annoy someone until you have an opportunity to add value, until you can build that relationship, until you can get the conversation going, which we'll get onto in a second, they can't climb down the phone and come out the other end and strangle you. The worst that can happen is they go, “Right, that person's an idiot, I'm not going to pick up their phone calls again.” Or you damage your personal brand slightly or the company's brand, but there's not that much on the line with regards to most cold calls, is there?
“The opportunity cost of a bad cold call is quite high.” – Chris Beal · [08:54]
Chris Beall:
If there's not in a negative sense, there is in a positive sense. It's really interesting. The opportunity cost of a bad cold call is quite high. The cost, sort of the raw cost of a bad cold call in terms of your own emotions, maybe you'll have a difficult time getting over it or not kind of depends on who you are. Grandmothers don't have a problem with this. They can cold call all day long. Younger people who are not so sure of themselves and thinner skin and all that might have to recover a little bit from somebody saying whatever they say. But the fact is, once you deal with the facts, once you actually get into this, this is the fact and you get why it's important for you to recognise and I have got a simple analogy. So say you want to save people's lives because you have a steady hand, you've got a good mind, and a good heart and you want to be a surgeon, so you want to do heart surgery to save people because heart disease is a real big problem.
Chris Beall:
So you dedicate your life to studying and understanding anatomy and physiology and maybe even go all the way to bed side manner to talk to the loved ones and all this kind of good stuff. But you faint at the sight of blood. You faint, you're out, you can't be a heart surgeon. You've got to recognise very early in your developmental process as a surgeon, this truth, which is, can you work through the site blood because there's always going to be blood?
Will Barron:
I create that analogy is real for you Chris. My partner, [inaudible 00:10:23] and the regulars know, she's a doctor. First day of medical school, the cadavers on the table, chopping them up, cutting them to bits. They were given essentially hacksaws to hack off a limb each to take off to another part of the department and the whole point of that, she didn't realise it at the time, but discussing it after the fact and now she does a bit of teaching as well is to get the doctors or the medical students to cut a few of them out who perhaps aren't capable of handling that trauma. It is a bit weird chopping some dead person's limb off, straight out of college. You're some super nerd. You go for a load of box, the next thing you're hack sawing someone who's donated their body to medicine and science. And so, yeah. So that makes your analogy real because as I said, my Mrs has been through it.
“When people ask me what makes a good cold caller, number one is they have to be able to gain control of their voice in an emotionally difficult situation. It is emotionally difficult because you're ambushing somebody. Can you get your voice to work naturally in an unnatural situation? And if you can do that, you're great.” – Chris Beal · [11:16]
Chris Beall:
Yeah. It's an incredibly important. When people ask me, what makes a good cold caller? Number one is they have to be able ultimately to gain control of their voice in an emotionally difficult situation. It is emotionally difficult, you're ambushing somebody. Can you get your voice to work naturally in an unnatural situation? And if you can do that, you're great. But if you faint at the sight of blood, that is you tighten up so much that you sound artificial and you listen to a lot of cold calls and people sound sing songy. They have this different voice, their sales voice, hi blah, blah, blah, blah. I'm whoever, whatever and you just kind of roll your eyes. And that's problematic and you can be trained to get used to the stress. That's actually what we do in this flight school thing is a little aeroplane I have on me here.
Chris Beall:
We actually train people to be really, really good at keeping control of their voice in a natural way in the first seven seconds of the conversation. But you have to do it under pressure and no pressure. When you go from those cadavers to a live person, imagine the first time as a surgeon that you've got that scalpel in your hand and or you've got that you're going to crack somebody's chest open, you've got to feel pretty sick. That can't be good, but you've got to somehow be able to keep your emotions under control and behave naturally. Naturally in this case means smoothly. You can't have your hands shaking when you're going to cut somebody's chest open. It's just not good for them. And you also have to think this in cold calling, when you cold call, you're doing it for the other person.
Chris Beall:
That's why you're doing it. You're not doing it for yourself. And my friend, Scott Webb who runs sales and growth and a bunch of stuff over at Hub International, he called me one day when he was going into a session using ConnectAndSell with his team blitz and coach session, he leads from the front. He does it himself. And he said, my mindset is wrong. I am going to go into each conversation feeling like I am stopping this person that I've never met from walking in front of a speeding bus. I'm going to save their life. And he went five for five, five meetings and five conversations called me up and said, that's the key.
The Mindset You Need For the Perfect Cold Call · [13:40]
Will Barron:
How much of the psychology that we're talking about here, Chris, these metaphors, these analogies, these ways of changing our mental models I guess, the answer is it doesn't matter, but how much of it can be just nonsense and have a positive effect of literally your power isn't stopping anyone walk in front of a bus. But if he goes into a conversation with that mindset, he's going to be in a position of more likely to add value during the call, however you want to describe it. So how much of this needs to be real logical step by step and how much of it is kind of just shifting your mindset, whether it's actually true or not? Does that make sense? That wasn't a very good question, but feel like [crosstalk 00:14:39]
Chris Beall:
No, it's a great question. Actually, I love this question because it comes to that intersection of technique which is step by step by step and who we are, what are we bringing to the party as ourselves? Ask anybody who plays competitive sports, especially I'll call it the exacting ones, the slow ones like golf. Golf is a great example of a very, very difficult game to play competitively. A lot of people can hit a golf ball in the range, very few people can hit one on the course and nobody can hit one in competition because it's just too hard to be natural when you're doing something that's slow and considered and has got technique and mindset working together in real time and that's what cold calling is. The seven seconds of a cold call are very similar to the amount of time it takes to set up to a golf ball, pull the club back and actually hit it.
Chris Beall:
Yeah. A lot of things can go wrong technically, and then one big camp thing can go wrong emotionally, which is you get tight. When I get tight, I hit the ball left. I'm a natural right to left hitter, boom, there's somebody's house and that's what happens. So when I used to play more competitively, which I don't at all anymore, somehow I had to do something inside myself that said it's okay no matter what happens. That's hard. Cold calling we have to do attitude things, but then we need technique. And the technique is exacting. It is second by second. It's actually millisecond by millisecond and it has to do with the other person's psychology. I think a lot of folks who talk about cold calling deal with the rep psychology, the caller. I don't think the caller psychology is particularly important. Other than they've got to be confident that what they're offering is really valuable for this other person. Even if they never do business with them, that's really important. Everything else, no big deal. At that point, the technique becomes important because it's about someone else's mind. You're doing brain surgery on somebody and you've got seven seconds to get it done.
The Only Technique You Need For the Perfect Cold Call · [17:00]
Will Barron:
So let's paint the picture then. Sam, the salesperson is selling a product that they know helps a specific prospect. We can narrow it down into a more succinct kind of metaphor if we like but he knows that they are able to help this individual. They've got data on it. They've got whatever it is. So they're in a really good mindset themselves. What do they need to do from a technique perspective assuming that again, they are confident, they're somewhat calm, they're chilled, they know that they can help this person if they can just get through this first seven seconds, they can book that next meeting. They know that when the prospect gets on a demo with them, it's wrapped up, it's sealed. This person's the perfect person to purchase from them and they're somewhat qualified, somehow they've pre-qualified them. What does Sam need to do in that first seven seconds? And how does Sam need to I guess preempt the buyer's psychology so that they can cater those seven seconds towards getting that next meeting booked in?
“The product you're selling is the meeting, not the product. So you have to believe in the potential value of the meeting for this individual, even in the downside case where you never do business together. So you have to know what's on offer in the meeting. What are they going to learn? That's the product. And I think the biggest mistake that most people make is they sell past the meeting. They sell the product as though the product is going to draw somebody in the meeting. It's not. Curiosity is going to draw somebody into a meeting.” – Chris Beall · [17:43]
Chris Beall:
Well, I got lucky on this. So first a small point, the product you're selling is the meeting, not the product. So you have to believe in the potential value of the meeting for this individual, this human being, even in the downside case where you never do business together. So you have to know what's on offer in the meeting. What are they going to learn? That's the product. It's the universal product of B2B is the meeting. And I think the biggest mistake that most people make is they sell past the meeting. They sell the product as though the product is going to draw somebody in the meeting. It's not. Curiosity is going to draw somebody into a meeting. So if you look at the emotional journey and say, what about the first seven seconds? You have to know where the prospect starts. The prospect starts in fear.
“Where you need to take your prospect during a cold call is immediately to trust. From trust we want to take them to curiosity and from curiosity to verbal commitment, and eventually to action.” – Chris Beall · [18:26]
Chris Beall:
They're afraid of you, the invisible stranger. You just ambushed them. We might call it annoyance or whatever. Trust me, it's fear. Where you need to take them is immediately to trust. From trust we want to take them to curiosity and from curiosity to commitment, verbal commitment, and eventually to action. So our big problem is how do we get from fear to trust. That one sounds impossible. Seems like we should go through a lot of steps, maybe go through value. I have value for you, blah, blah, blah. Turns out we don't need any of that. So Chris Voss actually taught me this, the author of Never Split the Difference. They nailed this in FBI land I guess with hostage negotiators. I asked him one night I was fortunate enough to be at a dinner with him. And I asked him, “How long do we have to get trust in a cold call?”
“The reason that cold calling actually can be allowed to work 100% of the time is you can show the other person you see the world through their eyes. And all you have to do is say this phrase correctly, with the right heart, then it works. You say, “I know I'm an interruption.” Not something soft like, “Oh, I do believe I might well be interrupting your day.” Or any of the crap that people want to say. Take full accountability for being the ambusher, see the world through their eyes.” – Chris Beal · [19:38]
Chris Beall:
And he says, “Seven seconds.” Oh okay, our research says eight seconds. He says, “Your research is wrong. It's seven seconds.” That's interesting. So what do we need to do in those seven seconds? He said, “Oh, that's easy, all we have to do is show this other party, we see the world through their eyes. We call it tactical empathy. And then we need to demonstrate to them we're competent to solve a problem they have right now.” And I said, “Well, isn't the problem they have right now me.?” And he said, “Bingo, that's why you're in control.” So the reason that cold calling actually can be allowed to work 100% of the time is 100% of the time, you can show that other person you see the world through their eyes. And all you have to do is say something like this. I happen to like this particular phrase, it's easy to learn. It's hard to emit. But if you can get to the point of saying this correctly, with the right heart, then it works.
Chris Beall:
You say, “I know I'm an interruption.” Not something soft like, “Oh, I do believe I might well be interrupting your day.” Or any of the crap that people want to say. Take full accountability for being the ambusher, see the world through their eyes. That's easy. Except it's hard to say, because we've been told don't be bad. Don't be the bad person ever since we were little tiny children. We have a baby in the family now, not Helen and me, but her daughter. And that baby is already being told by her parents who are wonderful people. But every once in a while, don't do this, don't do that. That's what we get told growing up.
Chris Beall:
The main thing we hear is don't be bad. Don't be that bad person. Don't be a bad kid. We're told this, I don't know. I tried to count it once, I figure by the time you become old enough to cold call, you've probably been told half a million times, stop being bad. And now you've got to go and agree to be bad. The bad thing, not even a bad act, but you have to agree, you are a bad thing. You are the problem. Get over that and learn how to say, “I know I'm an interruption.” Hammering the word, no. And then being clear about the interruption part and your voice is hard and flat. And then you've got to switch your voice to playful and curious so that you can offer a solution to the problem, which is you. You're the problem.
Chris Beall:
This person has one goal in life at this point, to get off this call with their self-image intact, that's their goal. Isn't that great? You know somebody else's goal. It's fantastic. Offer to help them. So how to help them? Simple exchange. Ask them a question of fact in a playful, curious voice. We know the answer, by the way, they can certainly spare 27 seconds they answered the phone. So offer a simple deal. “Can I have 27 seconds?” As the voice goes up, playful, “To tell you why I called?” Little chuckle helps, “Can I have 27 seconds to tell you why I called?” And then you've offered a solution to the problem they have which is you. At that point, they will trust you for the rest of their life. As long as you don't blow it, how do you blow it? Try to sell to them, turn into a salesperson, then you'll blow it. That is, you've just gone from being the worst thing, an ambushing invisible stranger to a new thing, which is a trusted human being. You're way up on the hierarchy at this point, then you can go to the second least trusted profession in the world by trying to sell to them, or you can offer them the opportunity to be curious about something, better path.
How to Sell Without Selling Out · [22:50]
Will Barron:
I feel like a good diagram this out in a really simple frame work. Does this, hey, I understand the situation that you're in. So in this instance, the situation is that I'm annoying you, but later on in the sales process, it'll be a different situation whether you've identified that pain points or whatever it is, here is how I can help you solve the solution. Let's solve the solution. Could this feedback loop happen not just from the first seven seconds but towards the three months of the deal cycle that we're working on. Can we just do this over and over and over and sum up a lot of B2B sales as this three step framework?
“Curiosity within a trust framework is the most powerful thing that leads to good end states. The good end state in a sales situation, well, there's two. One is you decide not to move forward together. So you save a bunch of time. And the other is you decide to take another step.” – Chris Beall · [23:55]
Chris Beall:
Yes. I believe this is the framework. I think Andy Paul just wrote a book at which he made clear that this is the framework. His book is Sell Without Selling Out and he offers a four step framework or a four pillar framework of connecting with somebody which is important so you actually connect with them oddly enough, when you ambushed them, it's a funny connection, but it's a connection. So then the question is sort of, well, what's next? And his next is curiosity, which I agree with deeply. So that cycle of connection and curiosity, curiosity within a trust framework is the most powerful thing that leads to good end states, because the good end state in a sales situation, well, there's two. One is you decide not to move forward together. So you save a bunch of time. And the other is you decide to take another step.
Chris Beall:
Why does somebody want to take another step? Well, they trust you a little bit more than they trust themselves for making that decision because you're the specialist, you're the salesperson. You know what you know, they're the generalist and they're risking their career. So they've got to trust you more than somebody and that somebody happens to be themselves. So the threshold for the next step is always from the buyer's perspective. Do I trust this person, the seller, more than I trust myself with regard to the decision as to whether we should take a next step? That cycle runs forever. And as long as then, your curiosity allows you to go all the way to understanding and then to generosity, you actually offer something in the next step, you have a cycle that goes on forever. I think Andy Paul has nailed it and I've read the book now twice in the last four weeks. I'm now listening to it. I think that's it. I think that's the great, that's like the circle of life out of Lion King or something, it's that simple.
The Best Salespeople Have a Sales Process · [25:45]
Will Barron:
Love it. I love it. All our training, Chris, if you're not familiar is all down to these step by step simple frameworks. That's all we teach because I feel like a lot of sales get over complicated especially when we're talking about enterprise, the complex sale, the long sale, the consultative selling. So I love it when we can break it down as succinctly as that. And we had Andy on the show maybe last week, last Monday, I think it was to cover all this. So the audience will hopefully have heard that before the end of this episode.
Chris Beall:
Yeah, so I mean, Andy's been right all along. He brings an engineer's perspective to something that requires engineering thinking, but about stuff that people don't normally think about in engineering fashion, which is what's going on inside that person? And what is a simple driver? Who are you as a salesperson? You're somebody who can help somebody. Why? Because you're a specialist, you represent a specialist capability. Companies are specialists, they do one thing, they don't do everything, it would be ridiculous to do everything. So the specialist comes to offer the opportunity to be helpful to the generalist who might need that specialisation. That's actually at the core of B2B sales. Once you recognise that it's well, at this time, can this person be helped by learning more about what we specialise in? That is, should we take that next step? It's very natural at some point for that to become commercial because otherwise it's imbalanced. Somebody's got to pay at some point, but that's not the big deal. The big deal isn't the transaction. Transactions I think are in modern sales are actually completely irrelevant except in the negative. When you have a salesperson who has had enough time to have a bunch of transactions and they haven't, that's a very lagging indicator that you should have paid attention to something earlier.
How to Handle Sales Objections During a Cold Call · [27:10]
Will Barron:
Yeah, that makes sense. Two things I want to get into, one, what do we do if, heaven forbid we get an objection at this, can I have 27 seconds of your time kind of pivotal moment in this cold call. I'm sure there's only three sales objections ever come out at this point, just reworded and rebranded in different ways. But is there any specific pathway we should take at that point? Is there anything we should specifically say? Because I know that the audience listening to this now will be thinking, well, what if, which might be the wrong mindset to have altogether. The correct mindset might be to let's do this 50 times and see how it works but I'll cut off their objection before they kind of throw it our way. What happens if or how do we deal with that objection at that critical moment of the conversation?
Chris Beall:
Sure. Well preemptively, what you do is you go from scarcity to abundance. That's our business is we'll take you from conversation scarcity to conversation abundance. And so it gives you the option of just going, oh, okay, talk to you later. And that actually is a pretty good answer when somebody says, “No, I don't have the time.” It's “Great. I'll give you a call later.” That actually works quite well. Push a button now, three minutes later, you talk to somebody else, but make sure you put them on your follow up list and have this conversation. So I got to look at my watch to see what the date is, Wednesday the 23rd. So the conversation would be this when you get them on the phone again, say a week later or whatever. Say, “Hey, when we spoke back on the 23rd, you didn't have time for a conversation. You were walking into a meeting.” Or whatever they told you, whatever the objection is, just play it back to them and ask them, “Is now a better time to talk?”
“You can blow the trust you built in the first seven seconds by insisting that somebody who says they don't have time for you make time. That's the dumbest thing in the world to do, but people do it. Sales people do it out of a scarcity mindset.” – Chris Beall · [29:08]
Chris Beall:
It's one of those straight things, asking is now a good time to talk is incredibly ineffective. But the comparative asking them, “Is now a better time to talk?” Is very easy. It's got to be a better time last time. Well, they didn't have time to talk. Now they might say “No, actually blah, blah, blah, I'm doing whatever.” But now you're in a trust relationship and this is part of the don't blow it. You can blow the trust you built in the first seven seconds by insisting that somebody who says they don't have time for you to take time. That's the dumbest thing in the world to do, but people do it. Sales people do it out of a scarcity mindset.
“Once you have abundance, you can be relaxed. And once you're relaxed, then your calls will be good.” – Chris Beall · [30:08]
Chris Beall:
Well, what if I don't get them again? Pat Lynch, who is the chief of, a sales enablement officer or something like that, a life person, maybe he's a VP, I think of him as a chief, good friend of mine lives here in [inaudible 00:29:38] actually with us in our neighbourhood. He watched my reps once in Denver for a whole day. I left the office, when we used to have an office, I'd left just to have him observe and tell me something. And at the end of the day, he said, “That rep over there, just let a CEO go without any effort to keep him on the phone. I don't understand it.” And I said, “Well, Jordan, why'd you do that?” And he says, “Because I can push a button and talk to somebody else.” So that's number one is once you have abundance, you can be relaxed.
Chris Beall:
And once you're relaxed, then that's good. However, if somebody is kind of indicating that they want to talk a little bit and they want to talk about whether they have 27 seconds, you always get to just say this, which is they're giving you the 27 seconds, they're talking. So you may as well just tell them why you called. And at that point, just tell them why you called. I mean, it's a simple trade. They're not going to stop you. So there's not that many ways that somebody is going to say, “I don't have have 27 seconds.” Why did you answer the phone? Don't argue with them. It's just in your head. You know damn well they had 27 seconds. Does anybody answer the phone when they don't have 27 seconds? It's insane. That's a crazy proposition. That's like, oh, I answered the phone, but I actually only have four seconds.
Chris Beall:
Well, what if this had been somebody calling to say, “By the way, I'm, I'm holding a check here with your name on it for $2,372,147 and I'd like to know where to send it.” You you'll have 27 seconds telling them your address. So clearly they have 27 seconds. So you could just go ahead and say, you tell me, “Gosh, I don't Chris but I'm really busy.” It's fantastic. I would say, “Well, I believe we've discovered a breakthrough.” And then tell them what your breakthrough is. Just takes 17, 18 seconds and now you've fulfilled your promise and you did it in less than 27 seconds so now you've actually done a piece of psychological magic. You made a promise and you kept a promise. Whoa, and you did it all within the 17 seconds that follow the first seven seconds. And it's a really easy formulation, but it's hard to say.
Chris Beall:
I have reps all the time go, “I can't say I have a breakthrough.” It's, well, why are you in business? What? Really? Your company doesn't have any breakthroughs. You leave your customers stuck behind the problem they have now rather than breaking through and being able to progress. That doesn't make sense. Of course you have a breakthrough. Let's come up with simple language so you can say that. Why? Because we're just trying to get somebody curious enough to take a meeting for their own good. That's all we're trying to do. Relax. I believe we've discovered a breakthrough. That completely eliminates the waste and the frustration that keeps your best sales reps from being effective on the phone or even using the phone at all. And the reason I reached out is to get 15 minutes on your calendar to share this breakthrough with you. That took 17 seconds. And I told you why I called.
“The prospect’s problem during a cold call is getting off this call with their self-image intact. That is their problem. That problem will never change, all the way up to the end of the call. That's their only problem, so your job is to help them solve their problem.” – Chris Beall · [33:40]
Chris Beall:
And they might say, now here's the objection, the worst objection, here's a bad objection. This objection is so bad I have to warn people about it. It's be ready for this one they'll say, “What? Tell me more.” That's a hideous objection. I call it the Venus fly trap. Because what it does is lures you the rep into holding the meeting that you're trying to sell. So you're under selling a meeting, you're basically saying, oh this is such cheap crap in this meeting that I can tell it to you right now when I ambushed you. It's like what? That makes no sense. Nobody's waiting for somebody to ambush them and tell them how to do their job. It's insulting. What they're looking for is another way to solve their problem. The prospect problem still is getting off this call with their self-image intact.
Chris Beall:
That is their problem. That problem will never change. That's it. All the way up to the end of the call. That's their only problem. Help them as Andy Paul says to solve their problem. Well, how do I help them? I make a trade, 27 seconds, I tell them why I called. Now what? Well, I've got a little extra time and I sincerely believe that this meeting's good for them. “Okay, do you happen to have your calendar available?” Question of fact set in a playful, curious voice, not asking them to do anything. No matter what they say, you pretty much say something on the order of, “I'm a morning person, how's your Thursday. I'll send you something, we'll move it around.”
“You don't have to choke somebody to death in order to get them to verbally agree to a meeting.” – Chris Beall · [34:25]
Chris Beall:
You don't have to choke somebody to death in order to get them to verbally agree to a meeting. You don't, you can just, you know the meeting's good, modern calendaring allows you to shoot a calendar invite to somebody it goes on their calendar. And in fact, 55% of the time that they're going to show up no matter what you said, and reminders and all that help, but you're going to have to talk to them again anyway, and that's fine. We call this psychologically a connect and so going from if to when. If is really hard. That's a decision, when is really easy. There's a lot of time in the future. We're going to talk it sometime. We're going to meet.
The Number One Mistake Salespeople Make During a Cold Call · [35:10]
Will Barron:
Love it. Love it. The big thing here. So I'm going to break down this episode and if [inaudible 00:35:13] said, I'm going to add some extra notes in the show notes to this episode over salesman.org for people to follow along with. So there's that, but something that I don't, you slightly glossed over it because clearly you've said it a million times and it's part of your vernacular. But this idea of just not blowing it is so important because I've had so many from email specific, no one has my phone number. So no one calls or calls me. I don't give it to anyone. You cannot get my number. It does not exist on the internet, any database. All of the people I've add on from different kind of database organisations have tried to get my number. In fact, there was an open bounty a couple of years ago of I'll give you two grand, $2,000 if you can cold call me on my phone. I've only got one work phone.
Will Barron:
So I guess that still stands. I've not touched on that in a while. But with that said, I get cold emails all of the time. And the first one I ignore most of the time, because I'm busy. Just my inbox is so full, I just delete stuff. The second one I'll be, okay, well, maybe this sort of to this, I'll read it. Then there'll be the third or the fourth, and at that point, I'm going okay, maybe I should just jump on the call with this individual because hopefully they've demonstrated, they understand what we do, our business, there's some kind of unique insight in there, it's been personalised, perhaps have shared some content I clicked on and was relevant, whatever it is. But then the fifth to sixth email, they blow it.
Will Barron:
They do some kind of breakup email or there's some weirdness to it or you can sense a little bit of them going, oh [inaudible 00:36:41] if you're not going to reply to me, I'll end it [crosstalk 00:36:45] before you get to end it. And so I love this idea of just don't blow it because especially with cold calls, you're trying to catch one when they pick up the phone. So that knocks your success rate of connecting down immediately versus an email can be found a day later, a week later, an hour later, wherever it is. So you're already slightly on the back foot with it. Then you use tools like what you have at ConnectAndSell which kind of magnify and increase your ability to get those [inaudible 00:37:12] in, get the people on the phone, which is amazing, but then just be polite and don't blow it.
Will Barron:
Because you might have called them at exactly the wrong time. The dogs just got run over, something just happened at work. They literally can't speak because there's a flood in the building and they're trying to deal with it and they thought that you were the plumber and you came with them a few days later, a week later, a month later, whatever it is. And eventually as long as you are polite, I don't know about you Chris but I find that that wears down on me as our company's tiny, I've got tiny budgets to spend, but we do spend money on B2B products and services. And if a salesperson connects with me whether it be via typically a meeting, an email, then a Zoom call, whatever it is. And it's not the right time to do a deal right now, eventually is the right time.
Will Barron:
And that's the person I seek out to do business with. So this isn't great when you've got, you're behind quota and you work for a crappy company that's not helping you with marketing leads and your out bounds not going well and you don't have connected sell. You don't have dialling software and you're struggling. This is not the advice that you want to hear at that point when you're on the verge of being sucked and you attained your quota, but for anyone who's doing all right, this idea of just don't blow it and you stay in the same sales role for two to five years, you just keep going along and building that momentum and building that list of people who know I can trust you from afar via cold call and via your personalised emails, via maybe time, a little bit of content creation or content curation if your customers are on LinkedIn or wherever it is, and engage with them there, the events as and kind of conferences as that kind of opens up again, all of this in my experience build up into to 18 months, two years later, you start absolutely crushing your quota and you're doing less work than all the people who are working late and “hustling” because you just built that momentum over time by not blowing it. I know I'm just throwing a lot at you there, but is there something to say for that strategy?
Chris Beall:
Yeah. I mean, it's everything. For one thing, 11/12ths of your ideal market is not in market this quarter for your offering because the replacement cycle for B2B products is about three years. So last I checked they were 12 quotas in three years. Therefore only in one of those quotas, 1/12th is your ideal market, somebody is perfect actually in market for your product. So right there, you've got to relax and go, oh, not market this quota so maybe I should talk to them next quota. Now, one of the funny things is about ConnectAndSell about cold calling in general is you actually curate a sub list of people who do answer the phone, where you can have that trust relationship built in seven seconds because you have access to their mid brain at 20,000 bits a second.
Chris Beall:
And you're smart. You don't let people have access to your mid brain at 20,000 bits a second. You make them come in through 5,000 bit emails that you can choose to pay attention to or not. And so, okay, I'll call it you're structurally defended, you have a good castle, but people who have to answer the phone in their business or do it by habit like me like to do it because I think talking to people's fun, those people are opening up their mid brain, their decision centres to a 20,000 bit per second flow of potentially psychologically compelling information coming in through their ears. They can't do anything about that. There's nothing they can, nor should they by the way. But if you blow it by trying to go, oh, here's what, I have two goals, one to get you to trust me. The other is to get you to buy something. You're kind of screwed. You got to choose one goal at a time.
“If you are a rock climber or a mountaineer, looking at the summit doesn't get you to the summit, dreaming about the summit doesn't get you to the summit. You have to do the movement in front of you, and you have to do it in a way that you're fairly unlikely to fall off.” – Chris Bealll · [40:58]
Chris Beall:
I'm an old rock climber mountaineer. It's an idea in climbing that's really clear looking at the summit doesn't get you to the summit, dreaming about the summit doesn't get you to the summit. You have to do the move in front of you. You have to do the move in front of you and you have to do it in a way that you're fairly unlikely to fall off. That's problematic in climbing it turns out. So it's the same thing. You get to do the move in front of you and you have to do it in a way where you're unlikely to fall off. That is not be trusted anymore. Here's what folks don't get. And this is why I have a podcast. If you get somebody in a situation where as a result of how you interact, they trust you and you don't blow it, you've actually sealed off the market against all competitors with regard to that information or that particular offer for all time because somebody else coming in has now got to displace that trust. And if you try to displace trust that somebody has in someone else, you will not be trusted so they'll blow it.
Will Barron:
Got it, got it. I love it.
“You can pave the market with trust and harvest it at your leisure. And your leisure is three years, in general is three years. Your prospect’s readiness is never going to be in the past. It's always going to be in the future. So what are you doing about the future? Well, number one, don't blow it. Number one, just don't blow it.” – Chris Beall · [42:02]
Chris Beall:
You can pave the market with trust and harvest it at your leisure. And your leisure is three years, in general is three years. And that 18 months you talked about that is generally the tipping point where you stop working and you feel like you're just having these nice conversations that wow, suddenly they're ready. That's of course their readiness is never going to be in the past. It's always going to be in the future. So what are you doing about the future? Well, number one, don't blow it. Number one, just don't blow it.
Parting Thoughts · [42:50]
Will Barron:
Got it. Well, with that Chris, I'll stay on it, I'd love to have you back on to dive into this deeper. I feel like I've only scratched the surface of your brain mate, on some of the things we can pull out on this idea of cold calling and don't blow it, that in its own is super valuable takeaway for the audience. And with that mate, take us through ConnectAndSell, what you do over there, where we can find out more and then tell us about the podcast as well.
Chris Beall:
Sure. I mean, ConnectAndSell is super simply push a button and talk to somebody on your list. We do everything else, including navigating phone systems, talking to gatekeepers, hanging up on voicemail. You don't have to do anything. You just push, talk. We do by the way, this thing called an intensive test drive, that's a free full day of production. It's a lot of fun and it's kind of a lottery ticket. Sometimes folks make a million bucks or two. Sometimes they just have a bunch of conversations. You can find out about ConnectAndSell obviously at connectandsell.com where there's a bunch of information, none of which is relevant because the only thing that counts is what does it feel like to go this fast and that's the test drive. And if you really want to kind of go deep on all these psychological concepts, so how to dominate eight markets with the human voice and how to get 14 times more of your emails open because you talk to somebody first, go to marketdominanceguys.com and see if you can wade through Corey, Frank and I talking endlessly.
Will Barron:
Amazing stuff. Well, to all that in the show note to this episode and more welcome diagrams and some illustrations about what Chris has shared with us in the share notes over at salesman.org and with that Chris, thank you for your time, your insights on this mate, I really enjoyed the conversation and for joining us on the Salesman Podcast.
The 4 MOST Important Skills in Sales | Selling Made Simple
Apr 21, 2022
Don’t be fooled—excelling in sales isn’t about having the right talents. Instead, it takes work to develop the skills you need to crush it.
In this video, I’m taking you through the four most important skills in sales that, once developed, will skyrocket you to an entirely new realm of success.
Now before we get started, tell me, does this sound familiar?
“He’s a born salesman.”
“She’s truly a natural.”
“What I wouldn’t give for their talents.”
If you’ve been on a sales floor for more than a year, you’ve probably heard one of these phrases uttered around the cubicles. Someone, usually a high performer, makes their job look easy. Hitting their numbers, bringing on new buyers like ants to a picnic. And they rarely, if ever, look like they’re even breaking a sweat.
As a result, their colleagues think they’ve got some god-given talent. That they’re a natural sales rep.
But the truth is, that’s bullshit.
Sure, some people are born with a leg up over others. But to be truly successful in sales, you’ve got to be a master of four skills. And sorry to break it to you, these aren’t skills you’re born with. They’ve got to be developed.
The natural-born sales rep myth is a crock.
And if you really, I mean really want to push your earning potential, excel professionally, and become the best damn sales rep you can be, then you’ve got to get great at these four sales skills.
1. Understanding the Market
You can’t even hope to achieve any sort of sales success without first understanding your market. Who are you selling to? What pain points are they experiencing? And how can you best cater your messaging to start speaking their language?
Understanding the market is foundational. And to do it correctly, you need to have a hold on two things in particular: the buyer’s journey and value proposition.
A) Buyer’s Journey
So, let’s first talk about the buyer’s journey.
The buyer’s journey is essentially the steps your buyer will take on their way to purchasing your product. A high-level look at a buyer’s journey would look like this:
The Awareness stage comes first, and this is when the buyer is first learning about their problem. Next up is Consideration where they’re weighing the pros and cons of different solutions. And finally is Decision, where (surprise, surprise) they’re finally making their decision.
Now, each market is going to have a slightly different buyer’s journey. And each buyer is going to make their way through that journey a little bit differently.
It’s your job to understand that unique buyer’s journey and guide prospects through it effectively. Now there’s a lot more to learn here, but one of the best tips I have for this is making it about the prospect.
Jeff Koser, CEO at Selling to Zebras, explained the benefit to me in an interview:
“They don't care about your product, they care about themselves. And they have to. It's their job. That's why there's such a fundamental difference between the buying journey that a prospect wants to go down versus a sales cycle that most salespeople try to conduct. And by shifting to pain, business issues, and value, you're actually making more of the shift to the buyer's journey that they want to participate in.”
B) Value Proposition
But not just any value proposition. One that’s built based on your buyer’s unique needs, pain points, and end goals. A value proposition, as you likely know, is what sets your product apart from the competition—what makes buying from you so much more beneficial than buying from the other guys.
There’s a lot of research that goes into crafting the right value proposition—the wording, the delivery, the specific perks and features. And when you master how to deliver yours, you’re going to find it far easier to attract the right buyers and turn them into enthusiastic customers.
2. Getting in Front of Buyers
A perfect product and a perfect pitch only get you so far. To truly succeed in sales, you need to know how to bring in buyers. Because if you can’t, you’ll be selling a perfect product to… well, no one.
Getting in front of buyers requires adept skills in two areas in particular—sales cadences and cold outreach.
C) Cadences
When it comes down to it, sales is a numbers game. For every X prospects you reach out to, Y will actually be interested in your product. And the better you are at fine-tuning your equations to maximize interested prospects, the more successful you’ll be in this position.
The trick is knowing how and when to reach out to prospects.
On the one hand, you’ll be able to fine-tune your cadences over months and years of experience. What techniques work? What schedule amplifies response rates?
But on the other, you can also take a page or two from the books of other sales professionals through training courses. Industries usually differ a bit in buyers’ journeys but when to reach out to them tends to be the same in every business. So be cognizant of that when you’re looking for ways to up your sales game.
Another invaluable skill in getting in front of buyers is…
D) Cold Outreach
Nobody likes “bothering” people when they’re trying to get work done. But the truth is, every successful sales rep needs to know how to conduct cold outreach campaigns if they ever want to make it in this business.
Cold outreach is vital in sales. More important in some ways than other skills in fact. As Vice President of Sales at Cardone Enterprises Jarrod Glandt told me:
“I would rather have a salesperson that could get in the door and create an opportunity in the first place, than somebody who sucks on the front side of it but is average at the end.”
Email, cold calling, social selling—it all plays a vital role in bringing in new leads. And if you develop your skills and build a sophisticated strategy involving each of these methods, you’ll be well on your way to earning a healthy income.
3. Explaining the Value
How do you get prospects on board? Not just during your initial discovery calls? But throughout the sales cycle?
It all comes down to explaining the value. What can you do for them that they have no chance of being able to accomplish on their own?
That’s where this skill comes in handy. And to excel at it, you need to be able to Diagnose, Demo, and Close.
E) Diagnose
One of the most important skills for all sales reps to master, or if only to start taking seriously, is lead qualification.
Is the prospect you’re talking to actually a fit for your product or service? Is their problem closely aligned with the value of your product? And do they seem like they’re motivated to make a purchase decision sooner rather than later?
Spending just a bit more time on diagnosing your prospect’s problem and weeding out the bad buyers from the good ones is one of the best ways to cut down on your work time, maximize your efficiency, and prevent a whole lot of wasted time down the line.
F) Demo
Your product’s got the specs. It’s got the benefits. And it’s got the interested (if not enamored) eyes of your buyer. But in order to clinch the deal, you’ve got to prove your mettle. You’ve got to show that your product really is everything it’s cracked up to be. And that means conducting a demo.
Mastering your demo skills is a great way to showcase the true value of what you’re selling. And when you conduct it in an effective, repeatable way, you can rest easy knowing your exciting new lead is sure to sign on and give you their business soon after.
G) Close
Closing is a bit of a fickle beast. Because when it comes to money and when it comes to crunch time, people can fall back on promises. They can make erratic decisions. And they can choose against their own best interests, even when their perfect solution is staring them in the face.
The best closers will be able to navigate all these unique variabilities to ensure the most successful outcomes. We actually have a very specific framework built for this stage of the sales cycle specifically. And just to hint at what’s contained there, the trick is continuously closing rather than building it all up for the end of the buyer’s journey.
But that’s all I’ll say here. For more on that subject, be sure to subscribe and check out our other videos on Salesman.org.
One thing I will say is if you want to close more deals, make it about the buyer as much as possible.
Author, speaker, and founder of The Daily Sales Daniel Disney summed it up well when he told me:
“If you want to close deals, if you want to win business, make it about them. It's not about you. It doesn't matter how great your product is. What is it going to do for them? Do your research on them, give them as many good examples of how it's helped similar people, but make it 100% about them.”
4. Developing the Right Mindset
Now, there’s not a whole lot I can say about this skill. Because the topic is way bigger than this short video allows.
But essentially, you need to be able to cultivate the right mindset if you want to implement the skills we’ve talked about up until this point. You can have the knowledge, you can have the systems, and you can have the experience.
But if you want to truly crush it in sales, you need to be able to come to the table each day with the mindset of a winner. One that can stay resolute in their processes, dedicated to their goals, and passionately determined to improve, to succeed, and to grow every single day.
Now if you want to see if you have the mindset it takes to succeed, go ahead and click on over to the SalesCode Assessment linked to in the description of this video. With it, you’ll join more than 10,000 other sales professionals who took just a few minutes to find out if they have what it takes to kill it at sales and what areas in particular they need to work on.
Because mindset truly is key to success, especially in sales.
Now, I’m going to sum things up with one quote I love from my interview with founder of Sales Success Media, Scott Ingram:
“The mindsets are the foundation. It all starts with that. You can have the best relationships in the world, but if your head isn't right and you're not in the game, it's not going to matter.”
Summary
Well that about wraps it up for this video!
Remember, if you want to crush it in sales, you really need to focus on four specific skills –
Understanding the market.
Getting in front of buyers.
Explaining the value.
Developing the right mindset.
With enough talent, skill, and work in each of these areas, you’ll be well on your way to closing more, earning more, and feeling a greater level of professional satisfaction than you could ever dream of.
And in the end, isn’t that what everyone wants in life?
5 STUPID Sales Questions That COST You Sales | Selling Made Simple
Apr 19, 2022
Asking the right questions builds rapport, influences buyers, and seals deals like gangbusters. But asking the wrong questions is sinking your sales numbers like a 20-ton anchor.
In this video, we look at five stupid sales questions that are costing you sales and cutting your chances of closing off at the knees.
Now, qualifying leads and closing prospects are without a doubt two of the hardest parts of being a sales rep.
Do you agree?
If so, you’re in good company. HubSpot found that 61% of reps reported lead qualification was their biggest challenge and 36% said it was closing.
But part of the difficulty in both cases is not knowing the right questions to ask. Questions let you identify whether your prospect’s problem is one you can solve. They uncover hidden motivations that’ll help you craft a perfect pitch. And they aid in spotting who’s an ideal client and who is going to be a major pain in the ass.
But the problem is asking the wrong questions leads to sunk sales. Bad questions make you look like an idiot, a conman, or just a waste of your lead’s time.
And even if you have the most groundbreaking, world-shatteringly amazing product in the universe, a single crappy question in your process will leave you struggling to meet your goals every month.
But don’t worry, I’m going to help you avoid that completely by pointing out these five worst questions you can ask in sales.
Now, I’m also working on a follow-up video where I tackle the five most powerful sales questions successful reps ask buyers. So be sure to subscribe and keep an eye on this channel so you don’t miss it.
But for now, let’s get into the bad questions you should avoid asking prospects with every fiber of your being.
Here we go!
1: “Can I Give You My Pitch?”
Just hearing this one should make your neck hairs stand on end.
First off, don’t call it a pitch for god’s sake. Nobody actually wants to be pitched, especially when it comes to sales.
But beyond that, the very structure of this question is setting you up for a troublesome power dynamic. Can you see why?
You’re asking for permission here. Doing so pushes the psychology and dynamic of the conversation towards the lead having all the power. They are the ones granting you permission. They are the ones who are so generously donating you their time.
In reality, the best sales relationships stem from a place of equality. You are bringing real, tangible value to the table. And the buyer is exchanging that value for money.
So don’t ever, ever forget—you and the buyer are equals. So remember to act like it
2: “Can You Tell Me About What You Do?”
This one’s a bit tricky, partly because so many people ask this question, especially online.
And it’s easy to see why—it’s seen as a solid conversation starter. I mean, who doesn’t love talking about themselves?
The problem here is this question is a real value suck. You are getting all the benefit here. And though people do like talking about their business, their time is also precious. They likely don’t want to spend it on explaining their job.
On top of all that, asking the question also indicates one huge red flag—you didn’t do your research beforehand.
Instead, take a minute to look up their profession beforehand. And glean insights about their day-to-day from other value-based questions like the ones we’ll be talking about in our later video—don’t forget to subscribe for those by the way!
3: “But…?”
That’s it. One little word. But using that little word in sales conversations can lead to big consequences.
Simply put, this word is the start of an argument. And that’s tough. Because it’s a verbal slip so tiny that most reps don’t give saying it another thought.
But the word by its very nature is meant to draw contrast. It’s acknowledging your buyer’s previous point and saying, “Here’s why you’re wrong.”
In the heat of sales, emotions can run high. And when you’re talking money specifically, both reps and buyers are going to be quicker to react than in normal talks.
So rather than test the limits with this word, try to cut it from your vocabulary entirely. Instead, acknowledge their point and just move on to your point without drawing a contrast.
4: “So You’re Saying You Can’t Afford This?”
Even in the more logic-based world of B2B sales, emotions like pride can still factor into making deals.
And when you frame the question like this—where you’re attributing the low budget to the buyer themselves—it’s going to get them to go on the defensive.
And to an even larger point, insulting the company as a whole—even if it is just implied—is never a good way to do business.
Instead, try using subtler language when trying to determine if price is the biggest obstacle. Ask, “Is price your biggest sticking point here?” or “Do you currently have the budget for this?”
But remember, there’s always money to be found in large companies. Usually it just comes down to an issue of budget reallocation.
5: “When Should I Call You Back to Follow Up?”
This one again comes down to simple reframing. Putting the fate of the follow-up in the hands of the buyer is a mistake. People forget. They lose track of time. And their priorities shift over the course of days, even hours.
That’s why it’s so so so important to close on the next step yourself.
Frame the question so that you determine their level of buy-in while weeding out any objections.
A lot to do in one question, right?
Here, you should take a page from the Selling Made Simple Academy’s Closing Framework. Rather than saying, “When should I call you back to follow up?” instead try…
A: “Does It Make Sense to Jump on Another Call?”
The “Does it make sense to…” question intro is fantastic for solidifying commitment from the buyer. But the beauty of it is that if there is an objection, maybe they’re not sure if your product is right for them, then you can follow up with…
B: “What Do We Need to Do to Move This Forward?”
They’ll then tell you verbatim what’s holding them back from moving to the next step. And you can address those objections now rather than dealing with them later.
And that’s going to save you tons of time and hassle down the road.
Summary
There you go! Five downright terrible questions you should never ask in sales…
“Can I give you my pitch?”
“Can you tell me about what you do?”
“But…?”
“So you’re saying you can’t afford this?”
“when should I call you back to follow up?”
In this business, it’s all about knowing what to say and what not to say. And if you avoid these five questions like grim death, then you’ll be one—or five—steps closer to making more sales and boosting your numbers.
Among all the challenges sales reps face day in and day out, closing is often said to be the hardest to manage.
And it’s true—being an effective closer is key to killing it in this industry. But there’s more to closing than most reps think. And there are ways to make closing easier, more effective, and less of a stressful debacle.
Today we’re covering how to stop selling and start closing. It’s just one more invaluable sales skill that, once mastered, will secure your success throughout your entire career.
Now, let’s get real here. For a lot of reps, asking for the sale sucks.
Most Sellers Hate Closing
Think about it for a sec—how do you feel about it?
If you’re like nearly forty percent of reps out there, it’s probably the hardest part of your job. The stress, the awkwardness, the potential for weeks of work going down the drain if you’re hit with a “No.”
Ugh.
But the problem is a lot of reps go about this stage all wrong. They try to close on leads at the end of the sales process rather than throughout it. They’re trying to say all the magic words to get their buyer onboard without checking in at each stage of their journey. They’re selling when they should be closing. And closing continuously.
Now don’t worry—if this is all sounding a bit out-there and you aren’t sure what this looks like in practice, I’ve got your back. This blog dives into exactly how to start continuously closing in the real world.
Before we get into the how of continuously closing, let’s first look at the why. Why should you switch up your closing process at all?
Well, there are three reasons in particular. First…
A) It Keeps Everyone on Track
There’s often a disconnect between buyers and sellers on exactly where they’re at in the sales process. Are they highly motivated to purchase, even before the day’s out? Or are they just testing the waters? And what comes next if they agree to a call?
When you close continuously, everyone knows where they are, what stage is next, and what’s to come later.
B) No Value Is Delivered With Maybes
A sale has value when your buyer agrees to a purchase—duh, that’s the point. But it also has value with a “no.” After all, a no means you get a better idea of the buyer’s objections. Whether or not they’re truly qualified. And, of course, a no also frees up your time to concentrate on other, better leads.
But maybes are time-wasters. They suck up hours of the day, even weeks in some industries. And if by the end of it all there’s no deal, that’s just energy that could be spent elsewhere.
But when you’re continuously closing, you’re sussing out exactly where the buyer stands. Forcing a yes or no. And eliminating maybes altogether.
C) When You Close, You Win
Confused leads don’t buy. They string you along for ages and, eventually, drop you like a bad habit.
And when you aren’t closing throughout the sales process, your prospects won’t know exactly what step of the sales process they’re in. They’ll be confused.
But when you practice continuous closing, you avoid that confusion altogether. And in the end, that means you win.
So now, let’s dive into the how of it all. How do you stop selling and start closing? Well, the first step is to…
1) Always-Be-Closing
Always be closing. Yeah yeah, we’ve all heard the famous line before. “A, always. B, be. C, closing”… “coffee is for closers”… what rep with an ounce of cinematic taste hasn’t seen Glengarry Glenn Ross at least three times?
But what does the ABC of selling look like in practice?
For one thing, you should always be closing at minimum at the end of every interaction.
Friendly interaction with a new lead? Schedule a discovery call before the convo’s done. Just finished a discovery call? Close the next step by booking a demo. Demo gone great? Set up a time to chat about sales objections and the finer details.
Do not—I repeat—do not leave it to the prospect to take the lead here. If you let them get out of a conversation without booking the next step, you’ve just plummeted the chances of moving forward tenfold.
Now, you should also be closing within the conversation, not just at the end. Here’s what that might look like in practice. You may say…
“So it seems like you’re interested in X feature. Does it make sense that I show you how it’ll interface with your business?”
Or maybe…
“Does it make sense that [objection] isn’t a concern anymore?”
When you close within conversations, you’re gaining mini commitments along the way that keep everyone on the same page and boost rapport at the same time.
And in fact, these examples bring us nicely to our next point because they use a very key piece of language. Did you catch it?
This simple phrase is vital to the last point we’re talking about today…
2) The Closing Framework
The Closing Framework makes closing continuously or “micro closing” incredibly simple.
All you have to do is ask…
“Does it make sense to…”
That’s it.
“Does it make sense to… get on the phone and see if we’re a fit.”
“Does it make sense to set up an in-person demo?”
“Does it make sense to start talking numbers?”
The way this question works is it makes micro-closing a collaborative process. You’re showing that you care about whether you and the buyer are on the same page. As President of People First Productivity Solutions Deb Calvert told me in our interview:
“The fastest, quickest way to get away from that being perceived as a pushy salesperson who just wants to reach into my pocket, is that you've asked me a question, or you've somehow demonstrated that you care about me and you're interested in where I want to go and what's important to me.”
And it works because it…
Relieves pressure from the buyer who’s probably expecting overly aggressive old-school closing tactics.
It updates the buyer on where they are in the buying process and lets them know what to expect next. And…
It forces the buyer to think logically about moving forward rather than emotionally on what could be at stake. Is this really a fit after all?
Now, ideally they’re going to respond with a hearty “YES!” But as we all know, buyers will always have objections.
So what happens when they say it doesn’t make sense to move forward?
Also simple—you get to the bottom of why.
Why doesn’t this make sense right now? Why aren’t they interested in moving to the next step?
And in practice, the best way of doing so looks like this:
“That’s okay, what would be a good next step to move things forward?”
Essentially, what do you need for this to be a winner on your end?
The best thing here is you don’t have to be a mind reader. Instead, they’ll literally tell you what’s holding them back. Their objections, their unclear value understanding, their timeline—whatever.
And with that information, you can further assess if the buyer is a good fit, if your product meets their needs, and what objections you need to address before closing the deal.
It doesn’t get much simpler. And it’s a proven method for driving more sales and crushing your quota.
How To Convince A Someone To Buy From You | Selling Made Simple
Apr 14, 2022
As a sales rep, it’s your job to convince the buyer that you’ve got the solution to their problems. But how exactly do you get a sales lead from the point of zero product awareness to enthusiastic buyer?
Today we’re talking about perhaps the most foundational of all sales techniques—how to convince a customer to buy from you. And stay tuned. We have a lot more to talk about than you might think!
Selling Mind Control
The crooked smile. The slicked-back hair. The patchy sports coat. We’ve all seen the old caricature of a sales rep before. You know the type—the one who’d step over their own mother just to close a deal. They’re one part charmer and two parts swindler.
But we in the sales industry know that grifting a lead into buying a shoddy product is worse than just bad business. It poisons your reputation. Kills any chance at repeat customers. And decimates your earning potential.
Instead, a truly successful sales rep knows value-based selling is the way to go. This form of selling prioritizes the buyer's needs. And instead of pitching them on a product at every stage of the buyer’s journey, this type of rep does their best to offer value stage by stage. They assess the situation, identify the problem, determine if they have a solution, and then (and only then) will they start closing the deal.
But even after picking out the perfect solution, they still need to convince the buyer they have exactly what they’ve been looking for.
Now, there are plenty of ways to approach this pivotal moment, the pitch. Some dig deep into emotions, others focus purely on logic. But over my career, I’ve found that a mix of the two is by far the most effective.
Today, I’m showing you my proven four-step process for convincing customers to buy from you. And with it, you’ll be able to turn even the toughest sells into enthusiastic brand evangelists in no time flat.
Ready? Let’s do this.
1: Understand Where The Buyer Is
If you’ve been doing things right up until this point—you know, researching the business, investigating pain points, asking about past solutions they’ve used, etc.—then you should already have a pretty good idea of the problem your buyer is facing.
What you need to do here is call it out. Call out the, say, inefficient teams they’ve been dealing with. Or the frustrating accounting system that no one quite understands. Or a lack of engaged customers.
Bring it all up in the pitch with your buyer. Get them to think, “This guy really understands what I’m going through.”
But don’t stop there.
The trick is not to just point out the pain. But to take it one step further by getting the lead to feel that pain.
Founder of the MEDDICC sales framework Andy Whyte put it to me like this in our interview:
“Now, implicating the pain is the one that really elite sellers do. Where it's like, I've found some pain, I've quantified it, but now I'm going to really make you feel it.”
How are those problems impacting their work-life? Their opportunities for advancement? Their respect they get around the office?
What are those pains doing to hurt their reputation? Their finances? Their sense of fulfillment?
Hit those points and hit them hard.
2: Point Out the Barriers
Similar to picking out the pain points, this step also builds rapport and gets the buyer thinking, “Man, he knows his stuff!”
What is it that’s holding the buyer back from solving this problem on their own?
In most cases, the barriers fall into four different categories: Selection overwhelm, confirmation bias, blowback risk, and cost of change.
Let’s take a look at each.
A) Selection Overwhelm
Now, selection overwhelm is a big one. In almost any industry, you’re going to have competitors. And sometimes, it’ll be a lot of competitors.
If a prospect hasn’t solved their problem yet because they see so many potential solutions but don’t know which to choose, that’s selection overwhelm. Your job up to this point should have been to differentiate your product enough to make it clear why you stand out from the rest.
B) Confirmation Bias
Confirmation bias. This bias is essentially our tendency to stick with our past decisions and look past its faults rather than work with something new.
C) Blowback Risk
Blowback risk, which is the risk of your potential buyer looking stupid if things don’t work out. The solution to this barrier is your brand, reputation, reviews, case studies, etc.
D) Cost of Change
Cost of change. Now there will always be costs to implementing a new solution. But if you can make your buyer’s job as easy as possible, say by providing complimentary training or free support for a year, then you can help them overcome this barrier.
So during your pitch, you should pick out which barrier your prospect has been hitting in the past. And then later in step #4, we’re going to loop back and show them how you tear that barrier down.
3: Paint a Picture of Where They Want to Be
What does life look like after your buyer’s found the right solution? Are they more productive? Is their team more efficient? Are they happier? Do they sleep better at night?
Really try to paint a clear picture of what their life could be like with the right solution.
And try to cover a broad spectrum of effects—how has their productivity changed? How has their home life changed? How has their career trajectory changed?
Now obviously, you’ll want to make this picture as positive as you can. But it’s important to be authentic here. Don’t promise them a new reality that your product can’t create. Upgraded accounting software can do wonders for your bookkeeping but saying it’ll give your buyer a six-pack, 7-figure salary, and a perfect head of hair isn’t going to fool anyone.
The point here is to get them connecting the solution to their problem with a brighter, happier future.
4: Establish Yourself as the Guide
Remember those barriers to a happier life we talked about in step #2? Well now it’s time to bring in the details on how you help buyers overcome those barriers.
If they’ve been held back by selection overwhelm, hit them with your core differentiators. Confirmation bias? Show them how your solution outperforms what they have now. Blowback risk? Case studies and testimonials. Cost of change? Throw in free onboarding or even an immediate discount to reduce the risk.
But ultimately, explain that you are the connection between their current reality—with all its pain points and frustrations—and the glowing future reality we painted a picture of before.
You can get them there. They just need to let you lead the way.
5 Most Powerful Sales Questions Ever | Selling Made Simple
Apr 12, 2022
Communication—it’s a delicate art when talking with potential buyers. Ask the right questions, you’re driving enthusiasm and closing successfully. But ask the wrong ones and you’re sabotaging deals and looking like a fool doing it.
That’s why in this video, we’re covering the 5 most powerful sales questions. From discovery calls a d demos to closing like a champ, these questions are guaranteed to skyrocket your numbers and catapult you well past your quotas.
Best Selling Questions, Ever
Now before we get started, think about it for a sec—are you asking prospects the right questions?
I’m not just talking about when you first connect or on discovery calls here. But instead, the right questions throughout the entire sales process.
See, asking bad questions sinks sales.
It makes you look like an idiot. It scares off picture-perfect buyers. And it leaves leads thinking, “Why would I ever want to work with that guy?”
Now, I covered the top five sales-sinking questions in a previous video. And if you haven’t already seen it, go give it a look when you finish this video.
But what are the good questions? The ones that dig into the heart of your buyer’s pain points? That uncover the real problems they’re facing? That are built to quickly qualify prospects while driving enthusiasm, building rapport, and nudging the right leads ever closer to saying “YES!”?
That’s exactly what I’m covering in today’s video. So if you’re ready to start asking the right questions throughout your sales process, let’s jump right in.
Now, first up, like I said, is perhaps the most powerful sales question you can ever learn. And you’ll be surprised at just how simple it is.
What’s so great about this question is that it makes selling a collaborative process. Rather than going for a hard push to buy or even to set up a call, you’re getting input from the buyer. Are they ready to move forward? And if not, you get the opportunity to ask, “What’s holding you back?” You can then deal with any objections or sticking points directly rather than uncover them further down the sales process.
Now, this question isn’t just for when it comes time to close the deal. Instead, it can be used throughout the entire process. From setting up discovery calls and demos to getting into pricing and going over the finer details.
The point here is that this question…
Relieves buyer pressure and lets them know you aren’t going to hit them with aggressive sales tactics…
Keeps them updated on where you’re at in the sales process and which steps are next. And it…
Forces the buyer to think logically about whether they’re a fit or if they have objections.
I’m going to be going into greater detail on how this question works in an upcoming video. So if you haven’t already, hit that subscribe button now so you don’t miss it.
Now, let’s look at the next set of powerful questions.
These next four questions come directly from The Diagnose Framework, which is particularly perfect for discovery calls, demos, sales calls, and everything in between. And we’re going to start with this question…
2) “What’s Stopping You From Solving This Issue Yourself?”
There are two benefits specifically to asking this question.
On the one hand, you’re qualifying the prospect. If they can solve the problem themselves, then they’re not going to value your solution as much as it deserves. And that can cause issues down the road. On top of that, this question will also uncover any hidden obstacles that make it clear this lead just isn’t a fit.
But secondly, this question makes the value that you offer real. What’s holding you back from solving this issue? Well we can overcome that obstacle. And we can provide tangible, often quantifiable value that you can’t get on your own.
Qualifying power with a hint of driving enthusiasm. Perfect.
3) “When Do You Want to Solve This Pain?”
Timeline is such an important part of the qualification process. Do they need their problem solved sooner than you’re able to roll out your solution? If so, this isn’t a good fit.
And conversely, are they looking to solve this problem two, three years down the line? If that’s the case, they likely aren’t motivated enough to draw up a contract now, and they may just be fishing for information (let marketing handle that).
But this question also opens up the conversation on what the buyer should expect too. How long does your solution take to implement? What’s the onboarding and training process like? And is that within their time window? If not, they can self-qualify themselves out, making things easier on you today.
4) “What Is Your Motivation to Make This Happen?”
Now, this one is especially clever in my opinion. Because beyond just learning more about what factors are driving your prospect’s decision-making, this one question also does wonders for connecting with your buyer’s emotions.
President and CEO of Whetstone Inc., Adrian Davis, put it to me like this:
“Fundamentally, we make decisions emotionally, and if all we're doing is spouting features and benefits, we're really engaging the logical part of the brain. The logical part of the brain does not make decisions. But analyses and captures information to weigh pros and cons, but decisions are made emotionally.” – Interview with Adrian Davis, President & CEO of Whetstone Inc.
What are the factors that are driving your buyer’s need to get this done? Is it just the numbers? Or is there company status, respect, and even on-the-job fulfillment involved too?
If you take the time to dig a bit, I guarantee you’ll find there’s much more to the story than just logic. And when you engage that side too, you’ll find yourself closing more deals than ever.
5) “If We Can Solve X, Will You Commit to Y?”
Now, it should be noted here that this question should follow some sort of qualifying affirmation. Usually I pair it with, “You’re a good fit for us” first.
But essentially the value here is this: You’re in the business of exchanging value. The buyer pays for your product. And in return, they get a solution to their problem.
This question makes that even exchange of value clear. They aren’t doing you any favors by buying your product just as you aren’t doing them any by selling to them. Instead, you’re coming to this deal on equal footing.
This helps reinforce the fact that this should be a reciprocal relationship rather than a one-sided one. And it’s designed to create the foundation for an equal, dare I say synergistic, relationship.
When you add these questions to your arsenal, and when you train yourself to ask them naturally, you’re bound to start closing more sales, building rapport, and sailing through the sales process easier than ever before.
6 Things Rich People Buy That The Poor Don’t
Apr 09, 2022
We’ve all seen the glamorous toys rich people buy—the luxury cars, the decked-out jewelry, the quintuple decker yachts. But what about the things rich people buy to grow their wealth? To become richer?
That’s what we’re looking at today—the top 6 things rich people buy that poor people don’t. And if you’re looking for a way to invest in yourself, you’d better stick around.
Get Rich Quick?
Wealth is a funny thing. Some people are born into it. Others fall ass-backward into millions. And some people, on paper, look like they should be rich someday… but end up paupered, penniless, and pissed at the world around them.
Making and spending money wisely is tricky. And a misunderstanding about what you should and shouldn’t be buying to grow your wealth is one of the biggest differences between the rich and the poor.
Which investments pay off? What purchases lay the groundwork for future success? And how can you tell the difference between an asset that expands your financial empire and one that brings it crashing down?
These aren’t easy questions. Hell, if they were, everyone would be rolling in dough.
But today, we’re pulling back the curtain and looking at six things in particular rich people buy and poor people don’t.
From physical items to organizations and yep, even ideas, we’re tackling it all.
Now, let’s give it a look.
1: Training
The best asset you’ll ever have is your own abilities. And the more you invest in bettering yourself—we’re talking mind, body, and spirit here—the better earning potential you’ll have.
Reading and consuming valuable, educational material is key here. The most successful people, for example, consume books and audiobooks ravenously. And if you’re not reading at least 10 pages a day, sorry to say it, you’re simply not doing enough.
But books and written content are just the start. And you can only learn so much by reading the static words on a page. That’s why rich people also tend to invest in training programs. Ones that provide interactive deep dives into the topics. Ones that cover skills and strategies using different media like whiteboards and video. And ones that give you the opportunity to engage with (and pick the brains of) real-life experts.
It's that type of learning experience that I modeled the Selling Made Simple Academy after. All-in-one sales training, in-depth mentoring, proven success—it’s got it all.
And on top of all that, if you can sell, you can do anything. So developing this invaluable skill should be at the top of your list.
2: Businesses
Now don’t worry, this one isn’t as out of reach as you might think.
One of the best ways of expanding wealth is by purchasing a successful business. Businesses are revenue-generating machines. And with a business that’s already well-managed, you don’t have to put in any work to keep them earning money while you sleep. It’s why business acquisition is one of the go-to investments for people with lots of money to burn.
But for those with a little less expendable income, there’s always investing in the stock market. Buying shares in companies with strong track records can dramatically scale your wealth if you’ve got an eye for the market. And with the right investments, you can create a surprisingly substantial passive income stream from dividends alone.
3: Audience
Whether you’re selling physical products or services, there’s one thing that’s common across any industry—people. You need people to buy what you’re selling if you want to make a profit.
And the savviest professionals know that spending their money on increasing their audience is a fantastic way to boost future income.
Now, you can’t directly buy sales opportunities (at least not ones that’ll actually pan out). But what you can do is invest in indirectly increasing your audience.
For example, you can purchase equipment that’ll increase the production value of your webinars. You can invest in marketing your upcoming event. You can hire on help for producing valuable and educational content you use to grow your LinkedIn network.
There are tons of ways for you to invest in growing your audience. And the more you do, the more you’ll be growing your earning potential.
4: Precious Metals
The markets these days are a bit, shall we say… sporadic. With everything going on in the world around us, your portfolio could be bringing in a return of 5% one day and getting hit with a 10% loss the next.
That’s why so many of the wealthy invest in precious metals that hold their value. These are super stable investments, unlike erratic Bitcoin or NFTs. When the market goes down, their value stays steady as a rock because they have actual, physical value.
Sure, clever investors still hang on to some super risky stocks and assets in case they pay off. But the majority of their portfolios are super safe to offset the downsides of riskier investments.
5: Intellectual Property
Rich people grow their wealth by owning a variety of ideas, systems, or other protected IPs. This could include ideas like a system for expanding your online audience, creative works like unique characters, music, or art, or patents for inventions.
Now, a smart investor will grow their wealth by licensing these assets out to others and collecting royalties or licensing fees.
For example, Salesman.org uses its own custom illustrated character designs. I can license these character designs out to another training company for some extra income. Or I can even hire a writing team and illustrator to create a comic featuring those characters to further expand my audience.
See how that works?
6: Appearance Boosters
Now I’m not talking about stupid designer clothes, diamond-encrusted watchbands, and plastic surgery. Instead, I’m talking about smart, straightforward items that enhance your appearance so you can do business better.
See, first impressions matter, especially when it comes to business. And if you show up to a sales deal wearing a stained T-shirt, there’s no way in hell anyone’s going to want to work with you.
That’s why it’s so important to buy items that imply success. “Imply” is the key word here. Because going too far the other direction (like buying over-the-top flashy outfits and jewelry) makes it seem like you’re not serious.
For example, I wear an Omega Seamaster watch to meetings. It’s a fantastic watch. And it shows that I’ve had a bit of success. But it isn’t so decked out in jewels that it could blind a prospect if it catches the light wrong.
Look successful. But don’t risk coming off as unprofessional along the way.
Summary
So there you have it! Six things rich people buy that the poor don’t.
These are all savvy investments that the cleverest wealth-growers consistently use to boost their earning potential even higher.
So focus on these assets instead of wasting away your income on the flashy cars or luxury clothes. Because when you do, you can rest easy knowing you’re truly investing in your future. Not just buying a bit of bling that won’t earn you a single cent.
Turn Your Customers into Lifelong Fans | Salesman Podcast
Apr 08, 2022
On this episode of the Salesman Podcast, Jon Picoult explains how to turn your customers into raving, lifelong fans and what effect this has on the number of deals you'll close this year.
Jon is the founder of Watermark Consulting and author of “From Impressed To Obsessed”.
Coming soon.
Sponsored by:
Free SalesCode assessment
Learn your strengths and weaknesses in an instant. Taken by over 10,000+ of your competitors. Don't get left behind.
Take the free assessment
Featured on this episode:
Host - Will Barron
Founder of Salesman.org
Guest - Jon Picoult
Author: From Impressed To Obsessed
15 Signs You’re Going To Be Successful In Business
Apr 07, 2022
Success isn’t fated. It’s forged. You just have to have the right qualities to make that success a reality.
Using data from more than 10,000 participants who’ve taken our SalesCode assessment, this video covers 15 traits of particularly high performers. And best of all, you can cultivate and develop each of these traits yourself.
Are you built to win?
We first created the SalesCode assessment as a learning tool for future-minded reps. What were their strengths? Where could they use some improvement? And what did they need to focus on to take their sales skills to the next level?
Since its initial launch, more than 10,000 sales professionals have completed the assessment. And while it’s definitely served its original purpose, this enormous chunk of data also opened up the door to something unexpected. With it, we could actually identify the keytraits that high performers had in common.
Now, there were some outliers of course. But in general, the best of the best outperformed the average rabble on each of these 15 traits.
And these weren’t “born with it or without it traits” either. They were skills, mindsets, and processes that anyone could cultivate. From the awkward first-year intern to the seasoned professional looking to climb the corporate ladder.
So today, I thought I’d share those 15 traits we discovered after analyzing our SalesCode assessment data. And hopefully, doing so will give you a clearer roadmap to which skills you can cultivate to boost your sales success.
Sound good? Let’s jump in.
I’ve organized the 15 qualities into 3 distinct trait types—beliefs, actions, and sales skills. And the first trait type we’re talking about is…
A) Beliefs
Beliefs. These are the ideas and qualities that underpin everything these individuals do, how they look at the world (and themselves) as a whole.
And trait number one is…
Comfortable Talking About Money
Businesses run on money. And high performers recognized that conversations about money are a given in sales. Rather than clamming up, beating around the bush, or getting defensive, these individuals approached money conversations like just any other step in the sales process
Extroverted
They’re energized by conversations. And they’re curious about other people. While this one can be hard to “learn” on your own, there are plenty of strategies introverts can take to increase their extroversion too.
The point is, a “people person” tended to fare better in sales than those who abhorred social contact.
Optimistic Outlook
They have an optimistic outlook on life.
While high performers weren’t necessarily blinded by their optimism, they did tend to see the silver linings and hope for the best. Optimism in sales is crucial because it keeps you energized to go out there, do the hard work of prospecting, and stick to your cadences.
It also has the added benefit of building rapport and enthusiasm in buyers too.
Solid Self-Esteem
It takes a lot of confidence to approach a cold prospect. And it takes a healthy self-esteem to withstand the hangups and no’s of those who aren’t interested. The best performing reps need to have a solid self-worth to excel in this industry.
High performers know that they make their own success. They make mistakes, sure. Who doesn’t? But they take ownership of those mistakes. And they know that doing so is the only way to learn and get better at what they do.
B) Actions
Actions. What do these successful people do? How do they spend their time? And how do they handle interacting with others?
The first trait here is…
NOT a people pleaser
There are some industries where it pays to be a suckup. Sales is not one of them. High performers know how to get on a buyer’s good side. But they also know when to push an issue and give an assertive “no.”
When it comes to sales, nice guys finish last.
High emotional intelligence
Emotional intelligence is a rep’s ability to 1.) control their own emotions and 2.) respond effectively to the emotions of others. High emotional intelligence makes it easier to manage buyers, connect with prospects, and build rapport.
And no surprise here—high performers had more developed emotional intelligence skills too.
Assertive
Knowing what needs to be done and executing on that knowledge is the best way to close deals and avoid future hassles. In the world of sales, being assertive means being able to bring up issues before they turn into serious problems, turning down buyers that aren’t a great fit, and, of course, asking for the sale.
It’s no wonder this is one of the most common qualities among high performers.
Strong goal setting
Sales is a numbers game. And the better you are at setting, tracking, and achieving those goals on time, the more of a high performer you’ll be.
Productivity
Success in sales isn’t for the lazy. You need to be self-disciplined enough to hit the ground running every day and keep that momentum going and going. High performers will be pros at using productivity strategies like creating task lists for the next day, having dedicated focus periods, and confining distracting tasks to certain points throughout the day.
And the last trait type we identified was…
C) Sales Skills
Believe it or not, you’ve got to have sales skills if you’re going to be good at skills. Who knew, right?
And that means being good at…
Objection Handling
Buyers are going to have objections to purchasing your product. That’s not the problem. The problem is how you handle those objections. High performers come to pitches with answers ready to a prospect’s major concerns. And The best ones also know how to turn an objection into an opportunity for building enthusiasm.
Influence
Sales isn’t just about the product you’re hawking. It’s also about the subtle things you can do to demonstrate your expertise and influence their decision. High performers do exceptionally well at showing their authority. And as a result, they can sway their success rates in their favor.
Industry Expert
Similar to the last point, high performers appear knowledgeable, confident, and influential. More than just talking the talk during a pitch, they’ve built up dedicated media presences on sites like LinkedIn. They put out regular and insightful content. And that brings potential buyers to their doors.
Storytelling
Storytelling is an essential component for tapping into the emotions of the buyer. And when it’s incorporated into the pitch, it drives success rates through the roof. High performers are exceptional storytellers. And they know when and where to use their skill to its fullest.
Negotiations
Negotiations are tense. Hell, anything money-related tends to be tense. But high performers know exactly how to handle these situations effectively. And because of their adept skills in this department, both parties, the seller and the buyer, always leave negotiations happy.
Summary
So there you have it! 15 traits of particularly high performers, taken straight from data gathered from 10,000 sales professionals.
It will show you the traits that you have, those that you don’t and it’ll even give you feedback on your overall strengths, weaknesses and how you can improve your chances of success, .
It’s free, takes 10 minutes to complete and it might change your life.
And don’t forget—anyone can cultivate and develop each of these traits for themselves, no matter their level of experience or what kinds of skills they have today. All it takes is persistence, hard work, and of course, some quality sales training.
How To Get A Sales Job (With No Experience)
Apr 05, 2022
If you have a good handle on what you’re doing, sales can end up being an incredibly lucrative career. But how do you get started? How do you get your foot in the door?
What a lot of people don’t know is that you don’t have to have direct sales experience to land a quality sales rep position. All you have to do is follow the four tips in this video on how to get a sales job with zero experience under your belt.
Your Dream Sales Job
You need to master a lot of different skills to excel at sales. On the technical side of things, managing a wide range of sales enablement technologies is key to closing more deals in less time. CRMs, prospecting tools, video conferencing and demo software—these are all par for the course in lots of sales positions.
But the technical stuff can all be learned on the job. The other skills, the soft skills, the people skills, and the self-discipline—these are the real underpinnings of sales success. And if you can cultivate these skills before landing your first sales role, you’re going to move up the ladder and boost your earning potential much quicker.
Best of all, you don’t have to have a background in sales to get into the industry. All you need is a bit of tenacity, some hard work, and a strategic approach to impressing employers.
In this video, I’m pointing out four ways you can get your foot in the sales door without having any experience in the biz. This video is meant specifically for newcomers to the field. But even seasoned reps can apply these principles (especially numbers three and four) in order to advance their careers even further.
Alright, enough chit-chat. Let’s dive into the four tips.
1: Show How Your Existing Skills Are Applicable
First up is showing how your existing skills are applicable.
No one is a completely blank slate. And you might be surprised just how much your past experiences, both professional and personal, can go a long way towards making you seem more hirable for a sales role.
For example, have you ever worked in retail? If so, you’ve probably had to deal with lots of face-to-face customers, both friendly and off-putting. To be successful in a position like that, you’ve got to have some decent people skills and at least some degree of emotional intelligence.
Both these qualities can do wonders for improving your ability to sell on the job.
Or maybe a past employer offered a service that required a lot of door-to-door cold calling. A summer job like this is great for building up resilience to rejection, which happens quite a bit in sales.
Put these experiences and skills on your resume. A knowledgeable sales manager will understand just how valuable they can be.
Tip number two is where the real hard work begins…
2: Be Happy to Work From the Bottom Up
Be happy to work from the bottom up.
Sales isn’t like other departments. If you’re in HR or IT, for example, climbing the corporate ladder is all about seniority. Who’s been there the longest? And have they put in enough time in the department to warrant a raise?
With sales though, a lot of your progression speed depends on skills. What do your numbers look like? How hungry are you? And how well can you do your job?
That’s why it’s so important to be willing to work from the bottom up. Even if you start in a regular old sales development role, with enough hard work on your part, you can be in a surprisingly decent account executive role in as little as six months.
And that’s when you can really start scaling your income.
So don’t brush off the “lower” roles—they can be a fantastic launchpad for the rest of your career.
3: Increase Your Visibility
Increasing your visibility.
Salespeople need to be seen as subject matter experts if they’re ever going to win big. And that means putting out plenty of thought leadership content to demonstrate that expertise.
Platforms like LinkedIn and Twitter are great for this. The better your content is, the more it’ll get shown to potential buyers in your chosen industry. And you can use those connections as leverage when applying for a sales position.
For instance, say you’ve been writing valuable content about accounting software, and you’ve built up a strong following because accountants find your content educational. If you then reach out to an accounting software’s hiring manager and show them how thousands of their customers actually follow you on LinkedIn, there’s no way they’re not going to at least sit down with you for a conversation.
Social selling these days holds some serious weight. And the more visible you are to the right people, the better positioned you’ll be to land a quality sales job.
4: Jump Into Quality Training
Jump into sales training. And not just any training. But quality training.
If you want to kill it in sales, you’ve got to be always improving. And that means digging in, developing new skills, and refining the ones you’ve got.
Now, there are a fair amount of sales training programs out there. But they’re not all made equal. And some are going to offer you more value than others. On top of that, some training programs only teach you a narrow range of the skills you need to be successful.
That’s why I developed the Selling Made Simple Academy. This training program is designed to take your sales skills to the next level and truly crush it. Inside, we cover four distinct and equally important aspects of sales success:
Understanding Your Market
Getting in Front of Buyers
Explaining the Value
Cultivating the Mindset
If you can show a sales manager that you’re committed to improving your sales skills, or better yet, have already completed a quality training program, you’ve got at least an interview in the bag.
Summary
And that’s all there is to it! With enough elbow grease and go-getter mindset, you can break into a lucrative and fulfilling sales role without having any direct experience. Just…
Show How Your Existing Skills Are Applicable
Be Happy to Work From the Bottom Up
Increase Your Visibility
Jump Into Quality Training
That’s all there is to it. Now remember, this is all just to get you started. If you want to start raking in some serious dough, you need to be committed to improving your skills. To getting better. And not every year or month. But every. Single. Day.
It’s tough work, I know. But if you keep at it, you can achieve real professional fulfillment and earn more than you ever thought possible, I promise.
Say Less And Get More From A Sales Pitch | Salesman Podcast
Apr 04, 2022
On this episode of the Salesman Podcast, Brant Pinvidic explains how to structure the first 3 minutes of your sales presentation so you can say less and get more from your sales pitch. Brant has over 20 years of experience in creating, and directing TV shows and movies. In this time Brant has developed some of the most advanced pitch and presentation techniques that he now teaches to people from all walks of life.
You'll learn:
Sponsored by:
Free SalesCode assessment
Learn your strengths and weaknesses in an instant. Taken by over 10,000+ of your competitors. Don't get left behind.
Take the free assessment
Featured on this episode:
Host - Will Barron
Founder of Salesman.org
Guest - Brant Pinvidic
Pitch Presentation Expert
Hi, my name is Will, and welcome to today's episode of The Salesman Podcast. On today's show, we're looking at how you can say less and get more from your sales pitches. Today's guest is Brant Pinvidic and Brant has spent over 20 years in creating, directing TV shows and movies.
Will Barron:
In his time, Brant has spent, he has developed some of the most advanced pitch and presentation techniques. And now teaches this to people in all walks of life. His book, Three Minute Rule, Say Less and Get More From Any Sales Pitch Presentation. We'll link that in the show notes. It's available on Amazon and everywhere else. And with that, Brant, welcome to the show.
Brant Pinvidic:
Here I am. Here I am. That's a great intro. I should bring you with me on the road.
Will Barron:
I don't know about that. My intros are somewhat sloppy, but we try and do this as live as possible with the audience now. It's just a [inaudible 00:00:44].
Brant Pinvidic:
I like it.
Will Barron:
Right.
Brant Pinvidic:
Yeah.
Will Barron:
Good man. All right. Well, let's jump into it. Let me give you a bit of a scenario here. As we get into this idea, which is totally in line, you may be familiar with this, you may not be. Totally in line with what we do over at Salesman.org, which is our branding is making selling simple. So I think we're going to be on the same wavelength for a lot of this stuff, right?
You Only Have 7 Seconds To Grab Your Prospects Attention During a Sales Outreach · [01:03]
Will Barron:
But let's say Sam the salesperson, he has now earned the sales presentation. He's done his cold calls. He's done his call emails. He's in the room, so to speak. So the prospect is even just like a little bit interested in hearing what they've got to say, because they wouldn't share their time with them otherwise.
Will Barron:
With that said, Brant, how long does Sam have to really grab the attention of the person in the room that he's presenting to? Is this like two seconds? Seven seconds? Or have we got a little bit longer to really grab the attention of the prospect?
Brant Pinvidic:
Yeah, listen, I would say in a fun soundbite is to say you have 10 seconds to get the attention. But if someone's giving you an opportunity, getting their attention isn't important as getting them the information. If you're advertising it in your marketing and that kind of stuff, the cold calls, you have very little bit to get their attention. But that's a whole other world.
“The science says that people will say and come up with a yes or a no in their mind incredibly quickly, within 10 seconds of meeting you.” – Brant Pinvidic · [02:07]
Brant Pinvidic:
The world that I really deal with is that you have an opportunity to present your business product or service to somebody and you want them to say yes. That is the goal. And the truth is the science of it is that people will say and come up with a yes and no in their mind incredibly quickly. Within 10 seconds, they'll usually start with a yes or no.
Brant Pinvidic:
And then if they've said, “No, I don't think this is right for me.” Then your job is to try to overcome that, which is a very unpleasant place to be. So really the science behind what the three minute rule does for you, is it helps you to elongate that process so that they're not saying yes or no in their mind, until at least you get in the valuable information.
Brant Pinvidic:
And if you do it right, and if you do it perfectly, and you lead people with proper storytelling, you could extend that to three minutes. Where now they've got all the valuable information, so now they're starting to think, I like this. I want to do this. Or maybe it's not right for them, whichever. What you don't want to do is have people thinking like, nah, this isn't going to work. I don't like this person. I don't believe what he's saying, which is the most common. And then trying to win them over, which is the hard thing to do.
Brant Pinvidic:
And anybody listening now will know that someone's come to pitch or present or ask you to do anything, and just think about how you've got that yes or no in your mind right away. And they'll ramble on and it's like, yeah, no, it's still a no. And that is the core. And there's science behind, it's called approach motivation on why people are driven to engage with things.
Brant Pinvidic:
And it's a level of storytelling and leading your audience piece by piece that in Hollywood, we sort of perfected that. It's why you'll sit and watch an hour and a half or two hour movie, because the story is told in segments that lead you to the next segment. And in a sales process, it's the same thing. And that's, I think where people struggle the most.
Will Barron:
Yeah. I think people struggle in the fact that they will perhaps understand this idea of the hero's journey or these different archetypes of stories. Everyone's seen Lord of the Rings. We could break that down into this story archetype and these step by step processes.
Your Prospects Don’t want to Know About Your Company · [03:58]
Will Barron:
But then when they come to a presentation, the first thing they do is go, oh, well, our business is this size and we serve these customers. And you can see the people in the audience, essentially the prospects, just metaphorically slapping their hands on the forehead because they don't need to know any of that. They don't care about any of that stuff.
Brant Pinvidic:
No.
Will Barron:
So how do you-
Brant Pinvidic:
I'll give you a great example of that.
Will Barron:
Sure.
Brant Pinvidic:
Is it was an investment opportunity that came around. My partner thinks it's a great idea. He sent me their webinar and I already had my chequebook out. I was going to write a check. I mean, it's a simple business, a car washer thing. I'm in.
Brant Pinvidic:
But the people doing the webinar and the presentation got on board and they spent the first nine minutes telling me who they were. Let me do our introductions and he did his for a couple of minutes. And then he passed it to his partner. He did his. Telling me where they live, where they went to school, what they did, their family. And it's just like, you guys want to make a personal connection with me and make me feel like … And I haven't written it yet. I haven't gone in, all because of that.
Brant Pinvidic:
Because then for the next, and I sort of watched the next 15 or 18 minutes, but I was off doing other things and I wasn't really paying attention. And my brain was like, I kind of don't like these guys. Not even overtly. I just was kind of like, eh. I don't even know why am I interested in this? And I just phased out. And so I didn't jump on it.
Will Barron:
For sure. I feel like it's almost a sign of someone, and not in respect to this deal that you're talking about there because obviously I have no idea about them personally. But when I see salespeople do it before they come through our training, or before they listen to shows like this, episodes like this, it's almost a sign of being an amateur versus a pro.
How to Use Storytelling to Keep Your Prospect’s Attention · [05:46]
Will Barron:
Because you only have to do that five, six, seven times before then you start to see the room. And surely, most people have enough emotional intelligence to go, okay, this isn't working. I need a better strategy. So with that said, Brant, how do we story tell and keep attention? Is there a structure? Is there a framework? How do we go about doing this?
“What I teach in the book is called the WHAC Method. And it stands for what is it? H is how does it work? A is are you sure? And C is can you do it? And those are the four tenets of any proper story or any pitch or presentation.” – Brant Pinvidic · [05:53]
Brant Pinvidic:
So what I teach in the book really detailed, is called the WHAC Method. And it stands for what is it? H is how does it work? A is are you sure? And C is can you do it? And those are the four tenets of any proper story or any pitch or presentation.
Brant Pinvidic:
The very first thing is what is it? People want to talk, like you said, they want to talk about the size of the market. They want to talk about their background. They want to talk about their history. They want to talk about the problem that people are facing. And it's like, that is not where people want to be. Your mind naturally gravitates to what is this? And if you've ever had somebody droning on about something and you've said to yourself, “Could you just stop, stop, stop? Just tell me what this is? Tell me how this works?” And that's the structure.
Brant Pinvidic:
So it's what is it? Which is literally, what do you do? We are an electric vehicle company that makes controllers that make your electric vehicle company go faster, whatever it is. It's what is it? I got to know what we're doing.
Brant Pinvidic:
And then how does it work is literally what is the process? You're an app that connects social media influencers together to sell products. It's like, okay, well, how does it do that? Oh, it's based on this function. You have to have a million followers. What are the structures? How does it actually work?
Brant Pinvidic:
After that, after I, as the audience understand those two things, now I'm open to validating it. Now I'm open to seeing that it's real. And that's, are you sure? Does this make sense? Is there a market? Have you done this before? Do you have the patents? What is the, are you sure? How do you get your audience to believe that this is possible?
Brant Pinvidic:
And then, and only after I believe and buy into those three pieces, then I care about you. Who are you? Can you actually do it? When is it available? When will the technology be ready? Have you ever done this kind of thing? Do you have a full-time job? Will this be your part-time job? Any of the actual physical elements about you and your company.
Brant Pinvidic:
And the WHAC Method ironically is almost a percentage of value. Half the job is what is it? If I'm looking at this carwash investment and I don't really think car washes are a good investment, nothing else matters. If I like car washes, I think this is a good idea, I'm halfway there.
Brant Pinvidic:
And then it's like, okay, how does it work? Well, we are buying 13 different car washes. We're going to rebrand them, spruce them up, raise the prices. And here's how we're going to do it. You're like, okay, I actually like that process. Now I'm 80% of the way there. Okay.
Brant Pinvidic:
And if car washers are increasing and the market's good and it always flows cash flow, which is what they would do in their are you sure section. If they, at the very end of it go, the only problem is we've never run a car wash before. I wouldn't be like, oh, that's it. I'm done. I'm out. Oh, sorry. I can't do it. My brain goes, well, we can hire management. It's not that difficult. Depending on how much I liked it, I'd be like, oh, don't worry about it. You'll figure it out.
“The less you say, the simpler you make your presentation, the more desirable it will be, and the more drawn people are to you.” – Brant Pinvidic · [09:18]
Brant Pinvidic:
So that's literally, maybe 5% of it if all the other pieces sink. And that structure is very hard for people to grasp because they want to tell all of the information at once. They think the more they say, the more information they give, the better they're doing. And what I teach is it's the exact opposite. The less you say, the simpler you make your presentation, the more desirable it will be. And the more drawn people are to you. It's just, that's the way it is now.
The Things You Should Focus Most On At The Beginning of a Presentation · [09:31]
Will Barron:
Why? And this might be a mindset thing or a psychological thing. Why do you think people are drawn to throwing up the goal, aspirations, thoughts, opinions, the strategy, all this stuff? When it doesn't really matter at the beginning of a presentation, why? Because I want to do it as well. Why do we all want-
Brant Pinvidic:
Yes, of course.
Will Barron:
To do this?
Brant Pinvidic:
There's two main reasons. And this is one of those things that in my seminars, a lot of times I used to have this as a small piece. And now I actually will almost take a full day to go through this because it's so painful for people. Is that the two main reasons that you do this is you understand value better than anybody. You have perfect understanding is what I call it. Perfect understanding.
Brant Pinvidic:
And the other one is confidence. Okay? The two pieces of it are perfect understanding means you have lived with your idea at every level. Every nuance makes sense. It's like when you watch your favourite movie. You see every directorial turn, every breath by the actress. Every twist and turn and scene is absolutely perfect. Because it's your favourite movie, you've seen it 15 times. Now you're seeing all the elements.
Brant Pinvidic:
Someone who watches it the first time, watches it as a total movie, summarises why they like it. And it gets bigger and bigger and bigger and more nuanced as they go. So what happens is you genuinely believe the value of the retail reselling of your product later on to opening up the other market. You see that as clear as day, it is perfectly obvious to you.
Brant Pinvidic:
And so you have all of this value based in all of these things that nobody can understand yet, because you didn't understand it instantly. It took you time to get to the place where now you know it so well. Now that you know it so well, it all has value. But you have to go back to the beginning to be like, hey, I need to give you the foundation of understanding of the conceptual elements. Then I have to build you the process of building value in this business. Then you could start to see the other tentacles that join it and the future and all of the other things.
Brant Pinvidic:
And so for you, it's very hard to know what are the foundational pieces of value if you don't take a step back and put it in this WHAC format. That's really what you need to do is to get back to the basics. And even though it feels like, oh my God, this is so important, and I'm not saying it right away.
Brant Pinvidic:
It's like, I have to say, I promise you will get to say all the important things. But the first three minutes is not the place for all of those things. Your meeting could last an hour, but only with a person who's engaged and you got to bring them there.
“People ask me to train their salespeople to be more confident. I can't do that. You can't teach someone confidence. You can teach someone how to fake confidence. That's not what I do. True, actual confidence comes from the value you believe you are providing to others.” – Brant Pinvidic · [12:19]
Brant Pinvidic:
And then point two this is this confidence level, is that people ask me to train their sales forces to be more confident. I'm like, I can't do that. You can't teach someone confidence. You can teach someone how to fake confidence. That's not what I do. True, actual confidence comes from the value you believe you are providing to others. That's it.
Brant Pinvidic:
If you were having a wedding and I was going to cater your wedding, and I was trying to get the job as the caterer. And my chef that was going to show up and be at your wedding in person was Gordon Ramsey. How would I present that to you? Would I need tonnes of words? Or maybe I say four words. “I have Gordon Ramsey.” That's what confidence is. Because I got Gordon Ramsey to cook at your wedding. You use less words. I'm not explaining, well, he's a Michelin three star chef and he's been on … I don't do any of that.
Will Barron:
Sure.
“The more words you use, the less confident you appear.” – Brant Pinvidic · [13:13]
Brant Pinvidic:
So if you picture a graph, which is what I'll do in my things, the more words you use, the less confident you appear. Because if I needed to have my brother-in-law, who just got out of jail, who's never really cooked before, but has really pressured me to get him a job. And I wanted him to be the chef. How many words am I going to need to try to convince you and your bride that he should be to your chef? I would just [inaudible 00:13:32], right?
Brant Pinvidic:
And that's where people get the thing, is that you undermine your confidence, because you appear to be that you don't value the end product. And you don't believe in the value you're providing. And if you had an investment that was really going to make somebody 20% by the end of the year, and you really believed it, you wouldn't go sell them it.
Brant Pinvidic:
You tell them the very basics. It's this, this, and this. And this is what it is. And it's just like, that's how people who are really confident, that's how they speak. That's how they act. That's how they present because they don't need to sell.
The Reason Why Most Salespeople Focus on Features and Benefits Instead of Delivering Value During a Sales Presentation · [14:10]
Will Barron:
How much, Brant, do you think this initial, wanting to just throw up information at the beginning of any sales pitch, that you kind of align then with the individual knowing so much about the market, the space, the opportunity, the product, whatever is it they're selling?
Will Barron:
How much of that is actually that they, in your experience with the different trainings and that, that you do, how much of it is that they are truly just so entwined in that space and they know so much. And they forget that people aren't as clued up as them. Or how much of it is that versus how much of it is that they've actually diluted themselves? And they're just talking absolute nonsense and saying one thing, which digs a bit of a hole, which they've got to solve another thing. And you go further down a rabbit hole [inaudible 00:14:54].
Brant Pinvidic:
It's almost never that. Most people are not diluted about it. They really believe in their product, business, or service. That is most people do. But the problem is that they're so excited about it and they're so passionate and they want you to see it the way they do.
“Your goal of any presentation is to translate information from your knowledge to their understanding.” – Brant Pinvidic · [15:20]
Brant Pinvidic:
And I actually talk to people about, what do you think your goal is when you're making a sales presentation? Like it's to get them to write a check and buy it? It's like, okay, that's the ultimate finished product. But really your goal of any presentation is to translate information from your knowledge to their understanding. If you can take what you know and get it so they understand it, they will have to be interested because you are interested. That's why you're doing it. If they understood it the same way you did, you'd have won that.
Brant Pinvidic:
So the goal is that translation step from, I know it and I want you to understand it. And when you mix the passion and the excitement, and particularly with I deal with a lot of biotech and scientific stuff. Doctors and those scientists have a lot of trouble explaining to people, the simplicity of their immunotherapy cancer drug. And what the business of that is because they want to talk about the breakthroughs.
Brant Pinvidic:
And so they get so passionate that again, they're throwing up all this information, but to them it sounds totally normal and natural, like of course. And so most of it is that. Unfortunately what comes across in our world today, because we have been poisoned by the years of click baits and click funnels and over promising marketing and the elevator sales pitch, that our natural instinct is to distrust people.
Brant Pinvidic:
I'd say it to these guys all the time. If your new drug cured cancer, do you think everybody would believe it? If you said, “Oh my God, we just finished our trial. I have a new drug. It cures cancer.” Would you be like, oh my God, let me get my chequebook out and give you money. Or you'd be like, yeah, whatever.
Brant Pinvidic:
And I've had that with companies that have these huge grand claims. And it's like, you can't say it like that because no one will believe you. You used to be able to do that. If we could get in a time machine and go back to the 70s and 80s, you could make big claims. Would you like to lose weight and eat anything you want? And you're like, yes, I would. Okay, let me follow your thing.
Brant Pinvidic:
You could lean into somebody at an elevator pitch. You'd be like, excuse me, sir. I have an investment idea that could make you 10 times your money by the end of the year. Would that interest you? Oh, yes, it would. Tell me more. That doesn't exist. Somebody in the elevator leans in and says, “I have an investment idea that'll make you 10 times your money by the end of the year, are you interested?”
Brant Pinvidic:
You'd be like, get away from me. That's the last person you are going to give money to. What if he actually had an investment like that? You know what I mean? So by saying it that way, by presenting it that way, by overdoing it, he's ruined his chances. And I see that a lot.
Brant Pinvidic:
And sometimes for me it's to my benefit because a lot of times I'll participate in the process of growing a company and it's like, wait, you're turning people off. You're making people doubt your technology because of the way you say it. How about we restructure it? Then people will actually look at the data and believe you. So that's the most common thing I see, is they want to bombard people with information and they don't realise it subconsciously and sometimes overtly, lowers their value.
Will Barron:
Yeah. So my background's selling medical devices and at the time I was selling them all the camera systems, endoscopic camera systems I was selling in the operating rooms, were switching from 720P to 10ATP. What you're describing here is bringing this up, this really vivid memory in my mind.
Here’s How to Become More Influential During a Sales Presentation · [18:39]
Will Barron:
I went out with a more senior sales rep and he said one line. I was like, right, I'm stealing that and I'm using that every single time. And he was speaking to a surgeon who had glasses on, the surgeon was like mid 60s getting on a bit, but still crushing it and really important. One of the best colorectal surgeons in Europe. And he goes, “Yeah, it's the difference between having either dirty glasses or a crappy prescription. And having brand new glasses and having them clean.”
Will Barron:
And the surgeon was like, “Oh, I'll try that.” He came in. It was exactly what he said, but literally that was the difference. And then it was the conversation on the back end of, oh well, do you think this will help you make less mistakes? Do you think this is less likely, less litigation go on the back of this?
Will Barron:
And it was just that, just that one phrase got the ball rolling with this surgeon that had no interest in new technology. It's not like me, because I used to love talking about it all, and the connections and wiring it all up and going and selling and training everyone on it. I would talk for days about all the nonsense behind it.
Will Barron:
This studio we've got here for this podcast, I love talking about all this kind of stuff. But you try and go into that kind of conversation with a technology adverse surgeon who doesn't want it. Just wants to do colorectal surgery, not have any issues, wants to go home. And again, that metaphor absolutely changed it for me when I first picked it up.
Will Barron:
And as you were talking, Brant, that story kept kind of coming back to the forefront of my mind. So is that kind of what we're looking at here? Of how to narrow all the scope of our complex products down into, is it fair to say a soundbite? Is that a fair way of saying it?
Brant Pinvidic:
It's not a soundbite because soundbites make people uncomfortable. Because they know. Again, it's like, if you look like you're trying, if you look like you spent all this time to orchestrate your pitch, people are repulsed by that. We're very sensitive. We have an oversensitive, hypersensitive audience basically.
Brant Pinvidic:
And so what you want to do is when you're looking for the quote/unquote soundbite, I actually would go back and be like, what is the simplest way you can explain what it is? What's the simplest way so that people get it right away? So that their next question is like, okay, and how does it do this? What happens next?
Brant Pinvidic:
There's something called and then storytelling. And a friend of mine, the late great Stephen J. Cannell, wrote The A Team and all these. He coined that sort of style where it was like, this happens and then this happens, and then this happens. And there's no nuance to his stories. They're very straightforward.
Brant Pinvidic:
And if you've watched Law and Order, or CSI, or any of these procedural shows, it's like, it's the same show every single week. Why? Because that storytelling is so compelling. A little piece of this leads you to this, leads you to that, leads you to this. And it's like, movies are all the same way because that structure works.
Brant Pinvidic:
And so what's the very basic way you can explain what it is you do? Why it's valuable? Why someone might want it? And why you're the person to do it? And if you can lay that out clearly they go click, I got that. Now I got questions. Now I have things to talk about. Now I want to know more. Now the next phases of what you're doing have relevance.
Brant Pinvidic:
Now that your surgeon understands, it's like, oh, I'm going to get a clearer picture. That'll help me see the glasses. They get that. Now they can talk about the ability to perform surgeries faster. Now they can talk about the ability to make sure they don't make as many mistakes. Now they can talk about the ability of sharing pictures with medical students.
Brant Pinvidic:
All those things that may have been true, he would not even hear that until he understood exactly what was the technology, or the system, or what it was going to be there. And so when you simplify it, it changes everything. It's an exponential return. Every word that you delete gets you 10 points on the scale. I wish I had a better analogy, but that's literally what it's exponential return.
The Information Pyramid: The First Step to Saying Less and Simplifying Your Sales Presentation · [22:35]
Will Barron:
Because it's one thing to say all this. But there's copywriter making millions a year who go about doing some of this, and simplifying things, and making things more tangible so they sink in our brains. For someone like me, Brant, a knuckle dragging salesperson. Maybe they don't have a big marketing team behind them to help with some of this. They're going to have to do it on their own.
Will Barron:
They've got a complex product. They're selling it. And it takes multiple meetings to get the deal done. The deal sizes are large. How does a knuckle dragging sale person like me start to implement this? Do we get our pitch, put it in a Microsoft Word document and just start deleting lines until we get to something? Is there a structure and a process?
Brant Pinvidic:
No.
Will Barron:
To simplifying things?
Brant Pinvidic:
Yes. And in the book, I walk people through the exact process because that's really what the book is. It is a step by step guide. If you're going to start from scratch with the pitch, here's how you do it. And it's actually the opposite of what you're thinking.
Brant Pinvidic:
I go back to the total from square one. And I talk about what's called the information pyramid, which is the fewer words, a little bit of information, and you build more words, more information. And so I have people try to do my this meets that exercise, a great one. It's a great exercise. This meets that, which is, can you describe your business in 10 words, 15 words total? It's this meets that.
Brant Pinvidic:
It's kind of like you might say a movie is, Dirty Dancing is Footloose, but at a resort. You have a this meets that. I use an example if I'm pitching a TV show. Very complex, huge, massive TV show. And I might pitch it as it's The Amazing Race for the smartest people in the world.
Brant Pinvidic:
So now you've got 12 words. And even though anybody in the audience doesn't produce television or doesn't know that, I bet if you just took a second, you'd kind of be surprised how much information you now have in 15 words. You know it's Amazing Race. If you've seen that show, you know that there's people racing around solving problems, trying to get from one point to the other.
Brant Pinvidic:
For the smartest people in the world, it means, yeah, it'll be people in the amazing race, they're like goofy reality show contestants. So I guess if you had really smart people, you'd probably have bigger challenges and more complex things to go over. It's like, that's pretty well what the show is.
Brant Pinvidic:
We're going to take MIT graduates and people who work at Boeing and put them in the hardest, biggest challenges in the history of television to see if they can use all their smarts to cross. It's like, oh, I actually kind of knew a lot of that from 15 words.
Brant Pinvidic:
And so you start with that little bit, and then I'll give my client a little bit more words to work with. And then you start to realise which ones are important. In the book, I talk about the Twitter thing. What if you had to tweet out your business? What if your pitch was a tweet, one tweet, 145 characters? Not the big new one they have, but the original, what would you say? You'd be surprised. Like, okay, now I can only use so much.
The Bullet Point System For a Perfect Sales Presentation · [25:31]
Brant Pinvidic:
And then once you get a little bit of that fundamental understanding I go through what's called the bullet point system. Where you take basically a Sharpie and some Post-Its and you write out bullet points of everything of value. Write them on bullet points and you get them on a big wall. And now you can start to see, now I'll start to take those bullet points. One or two words.
Brant Pinvidic:
I'm a podcast. I teach sales, that kind of thing. And you start to realise like, okay, which one tells you what it is? Which one is talking about what I am? And you can actually start to see it take shape. And then the exercise that really helps is you realise that what you want to say, that doesn't fit. And you're like, oh, damn, I really want to say this. And that's how you know that you're adding things that shouldn't be there.
Will Barron:
Well obviously we recommend the book at the end of the show. We'll add it in the show notes.
Brant Pinvidic:
Yeah.
Will Barron:
So clearly, that's the next step if you're enjoying this episode so far. But-
Brant Pinvidic:
Exactly.
How to Transition From the Attention-Grab Into The Actual Presentation · [26:27]
Will Barron:
How do we end this three minute period? As in we give like the 140 character pitch. We add the bullet points. We fleshed it out a little bit. We can see the eyes of our prospects in the room brighten up, and we can see that the prop's getting ready to ask us some questions. That their brains, the gears are starting to turn. So we're onto something here.
Will Barron:
How do we then transition it into, whether it's a Q and A, whether it's a more formal presentation, whatever it is after that. Once we grab people's attention and their imagination and now says, “Well, how do we transition from this is me. This is the WHAC kind of method …” into then whatever comes afterwards?
Brant Pinvidic:
Yeah. And I've had many clients that their three minutes is a minute and 42 seconds because it's simple enough. Or the rest of the business is complicated enough that you're not going to condense it. So let's just get the main pieces and then we'll get into it later.
Brant Pinvidic:
And so the three minutes is kind of like the maximum to get all these points in. And so I'll do investor presentations with clients that are 20 minutes long, but the first two minutes, three minutes has all the core elements. And the transition from that into the next phase is called the information and the engagement phase. And that's the way we do. That's the way we make decisions as human beings. We conceptualise, we contextualise, and then we actualize. And we go through those three steps.
Brant Pinvidic:
Doesn't matter if the decision is, what shirt do I want to wear for dinner tonight? Or should I invade the Ukraine? Those are the same exact decision process. I conceptualise, I contextualise, and then I actualize.
Brant Pinvidic:
So when you're looking at your three minutes, you're basically going through the concept and the context, and then the next phase is the engagement. How do I do it? How do I actualize this? And that's where the longer conversations, and the more details, and getting into the minutia of the numbers, and the history of things.
Brant Pinvidic:
And so that three minutes is, here's the concept. Here's what this thing is and how it works. So now you understand that. Here's the context as it relates to you. Here's the reason why it's true. Here's the reason why it's interesting. Here's how I can validate it. Here's how I can tell you it's actually going to happen.
Brant Pinvidic:
Once you get the context set, now it becomes actualization. How do we deliver it? What's the implementation strategy? I have questions about your numbers, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. That transition is metaphorically, now I'll take some questions. Now let's talk about what do you think? It's the pause.
Brant Pinvidic:
I train people to, like, you don't need to say anything after that, because your audience is going to be like, what about this? Or I was thinking this, or how about that? Or if it isn't question time, then it's metaphorically you saying, “Okay, I know you have questions. Here are the top five questions I know you're going to have. Let me get into those.”
Brant Pinvidic:
And that's a lot of times when we all build an investor presentation. It's like, okay, I've given you all the details. Here are the obvious questions. What's our burn rate? What's our track? How are we going to deal with the patent? Those things you know that people are going to want to know, but only if they have the core. And if the core is valuable to them, they'll actually put weight on those things. They'll be interested to pay attention.
Brant Pinvidic:
That's why you watch a movie. And Andy Dufresne ends up in Shawshank Prison and you're like, okay, he didn't commit the murder, and it's in a really bad prison. Now I got to see what happens. If we start that movie with Andy Dufresne escapes from the worst prison in America, let me tell you why. You'd be like, yeah, whatever.
Brant Pinvidic:
But we build it to you. We give you all the details. Now you want to see the story play out. If I tell you up front that he escaped from a really bad prison, you're like, okay, great. Why? When? Oh, is that really that bad of a prison? Or oh, did it … Everything falls apart. Hope I didn't spoil that movie for anybody but he escapes.
Will Barron:
I was just about to say it's a spoiler alert from like 20 years ago.
Brant Pinvidic:
Spoiler alert.
Will Barron:
Whenever it was we, I covered, we did it in history class in high school. That's how long ago I watched it. But with that-
Brant Pinvidic:
Yeah, exactly.
How to Implement the Three Minute Rule in an Email · [30:56]
Will Barron:
With that, Brant, so I love this. And just to reiterate, because I thought you go down the route of you do the three minute presentation, you get them, they're all wide eyed, everyone's loving it. And then I instinctively would just shut up and then kind of invite the questions.
Will Barron:
But I also love this, the second layer that you added on top of that. Of here's five things that you're probably thinking right now. And to do that in the sale context, you get to handle objections before they come up. So you can stay more in control of the objection handling process.
Will Barron:
You also, if you do correctly and you've got the right background, the right understanding of the market, the right understanding of the people that you're in front of, you get to position yourself as someone who really understands the person or people that you're pitching to. Which is instantly can add credibility, a layer of rapport and anything else to it as well. So I really enjoyed that.
Will Barron:
I've got one final thing to ask you, Brant. And that is, can this structure be used in other, I guess media, other than just a presentation? As in, can this be used in an email? Or like a mini slide deck? Or things like that?
Brant Pinvidic:
Yeah. People ask that all the time. And by the way, it is 100% for email, for brochures, for handouts. It's just more important. It's more crucial to simplify it because now you're asking people that aren't in a conference room that have to stare at you. They have to be there for five minutes or 10 minutes or 15 minutes. They're going to have to listen to you because they've entered the room.
Brant Pinvidic:
On a phone call, you've got them on the phone. So they're going to be sitting there. On an email, they don't have to read it. On a brochure, they don't have to read it. On a handout, they don't have to read it. So it's like, okay, now what? It's got to be even more succinct because you can't expect them to keep reading and go to all those points. On your 19th sentence is where your absolute core is.
Brant Pinvidic:
It has to be literally we do this, it's this and this. Love to talk to you further kind of thing. And when I'm going back, like I always say to my clients like, okay, we have to get to the point where you go in your mind. It's this proverbial thing. It's like, if you don't get it after this, we should just end this. I got to go.
Brant Pinvidic:
The idea is, it's like, I've given you the basics. If you're not like I want to talk more, I don't get it. I got to move on. That's the feeling you should have when you get in your presentation. Where it's like, okay, clearly you're going to want to hear more. And if you don't, I'm out of here. And so in an email or any sort of thing, you need to put it on there where it's like, okay, you got the basics. If you're not into a software solution for your point of sale thing, then we don't have anything to talk about.
Will Barron:
Yep.
Brant Pinvidic:
And so you have to get yourself in a mind where it's like, I've laid out the simplest version of this. There's not a lot of interpretation to be done. If this doesn't fit something that you think of, then I'm moving on. And that's like you're in a conference room and you give this pitch. It's kind of like, you're feeling like, so if anybody's not interested after hearing that we should just end this meeting right now.
Brant Pinvidic:
That's got to be the mentality. Where it's like, I just laid out the key points. Everything from here is not going to sway you. You might write a bigger check, but if your brain is like, no, I don't think so, we're done.
Brant Pinvidic:
And that's hard for people because they're used to fighting from the second it starts. Fighting for attention. How many times have you pitched somebody and they ask a question and you're like, oh, I'm getting to that in a minute. Just hold on. Yeah. I'll explain that. It's like, guess what? You're out of order. You have given them information in an order that leads them into a different conclusion and asked this question.
Brant Pinvidic:
And when I'm done and when you read the book, you will never have, I guarantee you'll never have that happen again. No one ever will stop you and be like, wait, what about this? Because that just doesn't exist anymore. Those pieces are laid out. At the end they'll be like, okay, I have a new question because it's based on something you've said.
Will Barron:
Good. I love this. It reminds me of something similar that we do. I won't go into it, I've talked about on the podcast in the past. But we use a similar structure. But perhaps even more overtly in the way that we set up sales calls. To the point of, hey, if this isn't for you, I'll tell you this isn't for you. And we can both get rock and rolling, and perhaps we can follow up later on.
Why Sales Should Not Be a Fight to the Death Kind of Thing · [35:20]
Will Barron:
There's almost a feedback loop, which you alluded to there. And as soon as, when we're training sales reps, as soon as they understand that. That they're going into a conversation, it's not a fight to the death. If it isn't right for the prospect, if they're not qualified, if you can't feel like you can help them. Or they just don't get what you do, even though it's very succinct.
Will Barron:
And so they've obviously just got other things on the amount of priorities. And maybe they'll come back to you in the future. Sales people then go, oh, I don't need to be panicking about this. I don't need to be stressed about this. And as long as the pipeline at the top is full enough, all the rest of it just starts to work and happen for them.
Brant Pinvidic:
Yeah. And I think that the sales industry has gone down this road of I'm trying to convince you. I'm trying to sell you. I'm trying to convince you. And the truth is nobody's going to let you convince them. No one's going to let you sell them. If they feel you're selling them, they're going to resist. It's just, that's the world we live in. So accept it.
Brant Pinvidic:
And what I train a little bit more is like, you're not trying to convince somebody. It's like, if I could get them to understand this, my closing rate goes up. You watch enough Instagram or TikTok, and you see all these idiot sales professionals that are doing these little videos trying to tell you how to close this and handle objections.
Brant Pinvidic:
And it's like, oh my God. You're just asking people to walk into a minefield of rejection because people are sensitive to it. We used to tell salespeople to use your client's name. Jeff, Bob, do you think? How about this, Bob? It's like, could you imagine if someone did that to you today?
Will Barron:
It's gross, right?
Brant Pinvidic:
Could you imagine how your response would be? You'd be just like, oh, this guy. And that is still a lot of the sales process, is people doing things that are as ineffectual as that. And asking those leading questions like if we came to deal terms today, is there any reason why you wouldn't move forward?
Brant Pinvidic:
Is like, I know what you want to get out of that. And it's a great idea, but everybody's now ready for that phrase. Everybody's looking for that what do we have to do to get you in this car today? As soon as you say that, your credibility just starts to drain. And then it's like, oh, will you say anything to make this sale? Because that means anything you've said, I now have to question.
“I've had really good luck with training sales organisations to come into the process of, if I can make you understand this, you'll be interested. If you understand it and you're not interested, it's not right for you.” – Brant Pinvidic · [37:48]
Brant Pinvidic:
And that is the danger of this. And I've had really good luck with training sales organisations to come into the process of, if I can make you understand this, you'll be interested. If you understand it and you're not interested, it's not right for you. But under no circumstances will I leave here without you understanding fully the value that this represents. I don't need to convince you. Because your audience is smarter than you about what's valuable to them. End of story.
Will Barron:
It's gross.
Brant Pinvidic:
And so you trying to-
Will Barron:
The way I frame this up-
Brant Pinvidic:
Talk to them just doesn't work.
Will Barron:
Brant, is the podcast started off. This is like six years ago now, or this is episode 740, something like that. Because I was doing okay, medical device sales, earning decent money, but I wasn't the top of the leaderboard. So I'll reiterate the story because people, the OG listeners will know this, but we've had a bit of a growth spurt recently.
Will Barron:
So I came home one day in Leeds, in me little terraced house. And I sat there. I was like, right, how do I get better at sales? And it was a bunch of dudes and women from the 90s with shoulder pads in their jackets. Going, “Hey, here's five ways to close a sale.” Here's three ways to essentially manipulate someone into staying on the phone for you for like 10 minutes longer.
Will Barron:
And I sat there and I was like, right, if I tried. And the best and I did it verbatim and I was great at it. If I did any of this bullshit with the surgeons that I was selling to, they'd be like right, dickhead, out of there.
Brant Pinvidic:
Out you go.
Will Barron:
You'd never get back in. You're gone. You never get in the operating room again. The surgeons would have a lot of power. They wouldn't always necessarily have the budget, you'd be dealing with the CFO in that situation. And I'm sure they'd be the same way. But you just instantly lose access.
Will Barron:
You can't say all this weird crap to someone, and this goes into what you're teaching here, Brant. You can't give them a list of features and benefits either when they've got their hands in a patient and they're trying to achieve something. And you're there to demo a product that makes this easier, simpler, more effective, less risk of litigation, whatever it is, on the back of it. You need to be able to, as I said, this is like the difference between having dirty glasses and clean glasses, whatever it is.
Will Barron:
And this whole podcast started off on the back of it. There was no good, multi-billion dollar a year industry, the sales training industry, there was no good content. And so it came on the back of me interviewing experts in the field like yourself, Brant, to try and pull this information back into sales training.
Salespeople Need to Forget About Old School Sales Techniques and Embrace What Works in the Modern Age · [40:12]
Will Barron:
So I totally hear what you're saying when you talk about these old school sales techniques. It didn't work on surgeons then, now it just doesn't work on Joe Blogs when he picks up the phone. He's just going to, go, okay.
Brant Pinvidic:
And those are the obvious ones. This is the problem, is that most people know the obvious ones as a salesman. But what they really underestimate is the ones that you still think people don't pick up on. It's like, no, you have no idea how hypersensitive the audience is.
Brant Pinvidic:
And I'll give you example. I did a lot of work with Harley Davidson on their sales process. And as I'm in the dealership, it's like they've trained their sales people to be like, here's the features and the idea of the Harley. And it's like, wait. They had so much trouble with, is that the customers were coming into the showroom with more knowledge about the models, and the years, and when this option was available, and how often it is, and the features. They actually knew more about the features and the benefit of a Harley Davidson than the sales people did.
Brant Pinvidic:
So the sales people are trying to compete for knowledge. And it's like, that is not why someone is walking into the showroom. They want to sit in it, they want to see it, and they want to know how they can get it. And it's like when the entire sales force started to train in a different mentality, a different mindset, which is like, somebody walks in, kind of wants this anyways. Your job is to facilitate how they can put it in their driveway. And that's it.
Brant Pinvidic:
You don't need to convince them that it's better than this other motorcycle. If you think that's your job, you have missed the boat. Obviously the sales have done very well over the last little bit. I'll take credit for it, pandemic aside. But the truth is it was a matter of that entire level of confidence coming to a different thing. Where it's like, I don't need to tell you all the details.
Brant Pinvidic:
If you ask how many horsepower it has versus the night version, okay, I'll tell you. But I don't need to come in with that guns blazing being like, here's what it is. It doesn't make any sense. And they found just like, not only, I mean lots of things, but besides the speed of transactions.
Brant Pinvidic:
How fast they were able to move to people through because it's like, okay, you come in there, you want to look at, can I get it? How much is it? What's the financing? When is it in? Can I get it customised? Like those are the real things people are after. Not like this would look so great in your driveway. Wouldn't your friends be impressed if you drove? You know what I mean? You don't want to drive a Honda, a Gold Wing, come on. None of that. None of that.
Will Barron:
I've got-
Brant Pinvidic:
If you think a salesman can convince you that your car is better than the … And that's the same thing in the car industry. Do you think someone's, a salesman is going to convince you that the Audi is better than the BMW? Or vice versa? That's not the way the world works now. Right? It's like-
Will’s Experience With a Salesperson Using Cringy Sales Strategies From the 90s · [42:54]
Will Barron:
I went into BMW. I've told this tale in the podcast before, but this just iterates the point. We'll wrap up with this. I'm conscious of time. I went to BMW with me Mrs. She had a BMW previously. I owned a expensive, fast BMW at the time. Went in, we just wanted to test drive it. We were going to test like a VW and an Audi, whatever it was as well.
Will Barron:
And then it was probably going to happen. The deal was probably going to happen. Went and test drove it. The salesperson was using all these close ended questions and weird selling questions from like the 90s. You know if the test drive goes well, you're going to make a purchase today. All over and over and over. And I can see it all a mile away.
Will Barron:
Me Mrs. Is a doctor. So she was kicking me under the table at one point, because I was laughing at how gross it was. And she was like, “Now, give him a chance,” kind of thing. We knew the price because we'd been online, done the configurator, and we knew the monthly amount that it was going to cost. The guy wouldn't tell us the price.
Will Barron:
We told him the budget and clearly the budget must have been close to the price, or a bit lower. So he kept going up there. “Right, let me speak to me boss. I'm going to come back it.” And he'd come back in and be like, “I spoke with me boss, can you do a deal today? If you can do a deal today, then we'll get it down to your budget.”
Will Barron:
So I was like, well, yeah, but what's the price? And he would not tell us the price. This went on for maybe like 45 minutes until me Mrs. then just walked off. It was embarrassing.
Brant Pinvidic:
Yeah. Isn't that crazy?
Will Barron:
It was insane. All he had to do was just tell us the price. And then if it's 100 quid either way, who cares? He probably would've just went for it. But he was so driven. And obviously he was being coached by someone else in the room that he kept popping in and out of.
Brant Pinvidic:
Yes. Oh my God.
Will Barron:
The sales manager extraordinaire who was in there. The sales manager was only there for one day for whatever reason as well. So it had to be done today. It was absolutely gross. And we ended up getting a totally different car. Went to the next dealership, bought the next car in an instant like that. Just because this dude was just so backwards.
Will Barron:
And it was because we knew the price, we knew what we wanted. We knew even the horsepower and all that kind of stuff because it was a smart car kind of thing. I'd sussed all that out. We just needed the price from him. Couldn't get the price and so he lost the deal.
Brant Pinvidic:
Yeah. And all he needed to do was take a step back.
Will Barron:
Yep.
Brant Pinvidic:
And understand what is he actually there to do? He's actually there to convey some information to you. One is, how scarce are these cars? How many do we have on the lot? Is this a time to get a good deal? Will this car be available? The things that could actually influence your buying decision.
Brant Pinvidic:
And I always say them is like, what is the truth? If you have lots of cars on the lot and you're hoping to get a sale, then you can explain to them that it's like this is the process. And so you can explain like, hey, it is a good time to get a good deal. Okay. That's going to make me want to buy more because it's a good time to get a deal. We have a lot of cars on the lot.
Brant Pinvidic:
If you're trying to play into like, can I emotionally get you into this thing? People buy off emotion. It's like, that's not really true anymore. People actually are scared to buy in emotion now. More than ever before. If you get them emotional about things, they actually recoil a little bit and be like, oh God, am I making a decision? Am I making a mistake here? And that's the same thing as a car dealer. You don't want to be part of that at all.
Will Barron:
I didn't even want a deal, Brant. I just wanted-
Brant Pinvidic:
I know.
Will Barron:
They could have sold us a car by going, “Hey, we'll drop a car off at your house. You can go do a test drive. We'll pick you up in an hour and we'll email you the paperwork.” They would've done a deal. That's how crazy it was.
Parting Thoughts · [46:29]
Will Barron:
Right. Well, without rant over, mate, I appreciate you. I appreciate your insights. Tell us more about the book, where we can find it? And then more about the training and everything else that you are up to as well.
Brant Pinvidic:
Yeah. So the book's The Three Minute Rule. You can go to Three Minute Rule.com or my website, Brant Pinvidic.com. There's all that kind of information in there. Book will help you do all that stuff.
Brant Pinvidic:
And then yeah, I like to do lots of stuff in lots of companies and happy to talk to people about what they're doing. I love, we've got this little movement of this, say less to get more. And as it grows, it's really exciting. Because it's one of those things where people are just like, oh my God. People get it now. People understand what I'm saying. And everything comes from that, from an understanding. It's very exciting. I'm really happy that it's gone so well.
Will Barron:
Amazing stuff. Well, we'll link to the book, everything you're up to, your website, everything else in the show notes of this episode, over at Salesman.org.
Will Barron:
With that, Brant, I enjoy your energy, mate. Your charisma, that comes across amazingly. I enjoy the kind of structure you've given us for these three minute beginning of pitches and the transitions and all of that as well. I appreciate that. And with that, I want to thank you again for joining us on The Salesman Podcast.
Stop Persuading And Win More Sales | Salesman Podcast
Apr 01, 2022
On this episode of the Salesman Podcast, Andy Paul explains why you should stop trying to trick your prospects and why you should focus on winning more sales.
Andy is the host of the “Sales Enablement with Andy Paul” podcast and author of “Sell Without Selling Out: A Guide to Success on Your Own Terms”.
You'll learn:
Sponsored by:
Free SalesCode assessment
Learn your strengths and weaknesses in an instant. Taken by over 10,000+ of your competitors. Don't get left behind.
Take the free assessment
Featured on this episode:
Host - Will Barron
Founder of Salesman.org
Guest - Andy Paul
Sales Enablement Expert
Hi, my name is Will, and welcome to today's episode of the Salesman Podcast. On today's show we'll look at why you need to stop persuading if you want to win more sales. And today's guest is Andy Paul. Andy is the host of the Sales Enablement With Andy Paul podcast, and author of Sell Without Selling Out, A Guide To Success On Your Own Terms. And with that, Andy, welcome back again to the show.
Andy Paul:
Will, thank you for having me.
Will Barron:
You're more than welcome, sir. I'm glad to have you back on. We just had a nice tune wag before we click record. Tonnes of value in that conversation…
Andy Paul:
We did. We did.
Stop Persuading Prospects · [00:30]
Will Barron:
… so I appreciate that mate. But, let's get into the topic. Let's not diddy daddle too much. Let me ask you this mate, we're going to talk about how not persuading prospects, this is going to seem a bit backwards to the audience until it kind of pans out. We're going to talk about how not persuading prospects is going to win us more deals. But, isn't the whole point of working in sales, being a salesperson, to persuade a prospect, to make a purchasing decision, so that we get some nice commission checks in our back pocket at the end of the quarter?
“I don't believe that our job fundamentally as the sales people is to persuade someone to purchase our product. I think that our job as sellers is to listen to our buyers, to understand what are the most important things to them, both in terms of the challenges they face and the outcomes they want to achieve, and then help them get that. And I think that when you have that mindset and that perspective, what your job is, you use a different set of actions to get to the end result.” – Andy Paul · [01:07]
Andy Paul:
Well, we certainly want the commission checks. The question is how do we get there? Right? So yeah, no, I don't believe that our job fundamentally as the sales people is to persuade someone to purchase our product. I think that our job as sellers is to listen to our buyers, to understand what are the most important things to them, both in terms of the challenges they face and the outcomes they want to achieve, and then help them get that. And I think that when you have that mindset and that perspective, what your job is, you use a different set of actions to get to the end result.
Why Salespeople Stubbornly Continue Trying to Persuade Prospects · [01:40]
Will Barron:
And that makes total sense, right? Everyone who's listening to the show right now, Andy, have just gone, “Yeah, of course.” But why is that common sense, but it doesn't get implemented? It doesn't happen for a lot of sales people that way.
Andy Paul:
Well, I think a couple things. One is, I think people come into the profession with this idea of how they have to act to be a salesperson, which they picked up through maybe people that they know that are in sales, but certainly through popular culture, and so on. The way sales people are persuaded, or excuse me, portrayed for ages. But then most importantly, it's really how sellers are socialised and educated about what their jobs are. And in most cases they are told, “This is your job. Your job is go and persuade someone to buy your product.” And it's like, all right, well, you can push. But, the alternative is, maybe I can exhibit some leadership and inspire the buyer and influence the choices and trade offs the buyer makes, and achieve the same result perhaps with greater predictability and in less time.
Will Barron:
So, the audience will know this by now, we do this show as live as we possibly can. I'm choking, choking on air, literally as I-
Andy Paul:
You're choked up by what I just told you. Yes, I know.
Will Barron:
It upsets me. It upset to me Andy. So, excuse me. With that mate, with that, we'll try and cut this out after the show, of course.
Andy Paul:
That's fine.
The Root Cause of Pushy Sales Behaviours · [03:12]
Will Barron:
Oh man. Okay. So with that, who is to blame? Are we blaming individual sales people here for not having agency over their own kind of profession, over their own career, over their own actions? Is this media and Hollywood. Obviously there's a stereotype of the used car sales person out there that we can perhaps lean into as well. The Wolf Of Wall Street, these kind of shows and films. Or, is it sales management? Or, is it the customer who's accepted this behaviour for long enough that it's then becoming ingrained as the correct way to do things? If we have to blame someone, who are we going to blame?
Andy Paul:
If we had to blame someone, yeah. It's not the individual salesperson. If anything, it starts at management, right? Is increasingly we see managers, when I said increasingly, is use this great technology that's available for sales. And instead of using it to sort of fundamentally reset how we engage with our buyers, what it's typically in the hands of most managers being used to reinforce these previously bad behaviours that existed in sales, these pushy salesy behaviours. In fact, perhaps using the technology to amplifying those behaviours. And so I think it starts, blame maybe too strong a word because this is part of a tradition that's going on for a long time. But, we haven't used the tools available to us to, so I said, sort of fundamentally rethink and reset the relationship we have with buyers.
How to Rethink The Way You Sale From Less Persuading to More Leading · [04:45]
Will Barron:
So the salesperson's listening to this now, they're driving along, their rocking and rolling. They're excited about you being on the show, Andy. They're going, “Okay, that makes sense. But I already do a discovery call and I already I listen to some of Andy's podcasts and some of Will's podcasts. I already ask some, what I consider decent questions. But, I still find that the buyer has like status quo. There's confirmation biases of decisions they made in the past. There are other elements that like hold them steadfast in this position where I know that if they leverage our product, they buy into what we offer, we can help them.” How does that salesperson who's listening right now, who perhaps, I think you've used and I'm mirroring your wording here carefully, Andy, they are persuading buyers having done discovery to get the deal, to get them over the line. How do they need to rethink the process and perhaps do less persuading and more leading? What practically does that look like?
Andy Paul:
Well, what practically looks like for discovery is, in hands of most sellers, the way they're trained is, okay, you've got a playbook for discovery. You've got these questions we typically ask to this persona within this ICP. You should expect to get this type of answer. Based on receiving this type of answer, this is how you respond. And what happens then is discovery turns out being like a survey taking, right? I collect some amount of information, but I don't understand a thing, right? I know this information, but I don't understand why it's important to the buyer. And this is the big gap that exists in discovery oftentimes is, I sort of know what they sort of think, but I don't really understand why. I don't understand what's most important to them in terms of the challenges they're trying to face.
Andy Paul:
I haven't helped them think more deeply and broadly about that challenge with the questions I'm asking because I was just gathering information. Rather than using questions as a way to help the buyer think differently about the problems they're trying to achieve or the problems they're trying to solve and the outcomes they can achieve. So, there's a gap between knowing something and understanding it is a big difference, and it requires going deeper with the question. So in my book I lay out in a chapter on curiosity is layout six question types that if you use them in combination is you will surface eventually what is most important to the buyer. And then when you that information, when you know what's most important to the buyer, then you can say, “Okay, now I can work with the buyer because we know what the target is. We know what the real target is. I can work with the buyer now to try to influence the choices and trade offs they make about how to achieve their desired outcomes.”
The Process of Getting The Buyer to Understand What You’re Selling Instead of Trying to Persuade Them · [07:20]
Will Barron:
So is it a case of getting the buyer to understand where they are, and you go through this process as well, right? Allowing the buyer to then, or enabling the buyer, helping them with your industry expertise. Clearly you've probably sold this product more times than the buyer has bought it. Get them to visualise, understand where they could be. And then is our job then to enable the buyer to see how they get from one place to another? As opposed to have a stick behind the back of the head, whacking them to get from the start line, to the end line.
“If you're doing a persuasion based sales approach, you’re pushing the buyer. And I think sales is really a leadership role. What you're trying to do is you're trying to help the buyer understand what's most important to them. But then you're going to inspire them to go on this journey with you to co-create what this vision of success will look like when the buyer invests and uses your products and your services. Because, really when the buyers make a purchase decision, what are they buying? They're not buying the product. They're buying the vision of what that product can do for them and the outcomes they can achieve.” – Andy Paul · [07:52]
Andy Paul:
Yeah. Right. I mean, so just fundamentally you can even break down even further and say, “Look,” if you're doing a persuasion based sales approach, it's pushing, right? You're pushing, pushing, pushing the buyer. And I think sales is really a leadership role, right? What you're trying to do is, you're trying to help the buyer understand what's most important to them. But then you're going to inspire them to go on this journey with you to co-create what this vision of success will look like when the buyer invests and uses your products and your services. Because, really when the buyers make can purchase decision, what are they buying? They're not buying the product. They're buying the vision of what that product can do for them and the outcomes they can achieve. And I think that's more fundamentally a leadership aspect than a push, push, push aspect.
Will Barron:
So, let's see if we can go practical with this. So I know when I'm selling our Selling Made Simple academy training programme, right? I do what we're describing here and I'll start one place and I'll say, “Well, the training's going to allow us do this. It's going to free up your time. It's going to do this. It's going to do that.” And then I'll allow the prospect to, and I call them a prospect loosely, because usually they're fans of the show already. There's a bit of relationship already there. So, perhaps a few steps ahead of what the audience might be with their potential customers.
The Importance of Trust and Credibility When Trying to Win More Sales · [09:43]
Will Barron:
But then we get to the point of, “Well, what do you actually want to achieve? Forget your sales target. Let's go beyond that and let's see where you need to be in five, 10 years, what you need to earn to get to that point.” And then you see their start to open it wide and you can then go, “Well, okay, well our training maybe can help with this or maybe it can't help with this.” And we go down the kind of giving the solution to the problem, right? And again, I'm conscious I'm coming from a perspective of the audience. By the time I get on a call with them, whether it's a sales leader, the VP of sales, to sell our training product, they already know everything about it. They already know all about me. There's a layer of trust rapport there. So, with that said, Andy, what do we do if we're selling something like office furniture or accounting software, or something like this where there's perhaps, and maybe you can help me with this, but instantly I'm struggling to come up with some grand vision for the cheap office furniture that I'm selling. You know what I mean? Versus what I just described of a transformation, which is going to change both your career, but perhaps your personal life as well.
Andy Paul:
Not every price, you had that vision on the first call, right? So, there's a process. You have to build this connection with the buyer as a human being. You have to build a level of credibility and trust, which you talked about. You've built through your podcast with your audience and the people you're talking to, is what they've done is said, “Look, okay, we've built that connection.” So I talk about four pillars of selling in, in my book, connection, curiosity, understanding, generosity. You've built that connection, that trust. So now what the buyer says, “Look, I'm going to open the door to your influence Will, right? I have this trust in you. I'm going to enable you to come in and sort of stick your nose into our business to really learn what is most important to us. What are the outcomes we're trying to achieve.”
“If you go in from a position of trust, you're going to be able to go much deeper and get deeper and better insights into what the buyer's trying to achieve than you would without trust.” – Andy Paul · [11:21]
Andy Paul:
And as you know, I mean, when you talk to sellers, two people can ask the same question and get two dramatically different answers, based on the connection and the trust that they've built up with that buyer. So that's why starting with that human connection is so important, leads into your curiosity. We use our curiosity to explore the things that are unfamiliar to us. Well, again, if you go in from a position of trust, you're going to be able to go much deeper and get deep and better insights into what the buyer's trying to achieve than you would without them.
Why You? How to Create a Seamless Buying Experience That Gets the Buyer To Choose Your Product or Service · [11:32]
Will Barron:
How much of the practical skill of doing this, Andy, comes from building trust, building rapport, having the buyer going into the conversation with them seeing you as someone who can often value as opposed to a pesky salesperson who's just trying to suck money from their pocket, right? How much of this comes up from framing the conversation? How much of it is enabled by framing the conversation up as, this is a consultative call, as opposed to a, I don't know, maybe you wouldn't do this on a cold call. You'd use your cold call to set up a meeting, right? But, how much of this comes from the perception of the buyer of you versus what you are able to do on the call itself?
“Let's take your training products, great training product. But, the fact is there's what, a million sales trainers out there? And when the buyer is talking to you and they're valuing products saying, “Well, the products are basically all the same. So what's the difference?” Well, the difference is how I'm experiencing Will versus experiencing John or experiencing Bill, who's also trying to sell to us. And that's where the difference is really made, is how the buyer experiences you in this process.” – Andy Paul · [13:01]
Andy Paul:
Almost all of it, right? And so I write about my book is, there's a question that all buyers ask of you as seller, excuse me, I call that the why you question, right? Why should I invest my time in you? Why should I invest my intention in you? Why should I trust you? And that's something that they answer through how they experience you, right? It's a question they're not really verbalising, but they're just being asked nonetheless. And so it starts with really small things, right? What's the first impression you create with a buyer? And are you being intentional about trying to create a positive first impression? Right? Because at the end of the day, every interaction that we have with a buyer, is part of their buying experience with us. And we know on a day, the age that we operate in today, let's take your training products, great training products. But, the fact is there's what, a million sales trainers out there? And when the buyer is talking to you and they're valuing products saying, “Well, the products are basically all the same. So what's the difference?”
“When you have the opportunity to interact with the buyer, it doesn't matter in what form that takes, whether it's an email or a voice call, Zoom call, in person meeting, the buyer has invested their time and attention in you. You have to enable them to earn a return on that time and attention. And that just doesn't happen by coming in and sort of trying to flog your product. It happens by sort of being in this process together with the buyer, right? Really understanding what's important to them. Being focused on how can I help you achieve what's most important to you? And then you become the differentiator, not the product or the company.” – Andy Paul · [13:35]
Andy Paul:
Well, the difference is how I'm experiencing Will versus experiencing John or experiencing Bill, who's also in trying to sell to us. And that's where the difference is really made, is how the buyer experiences you in this process. So, what it means is that when you have the opportunity to interact with the buyer, doesn't matter in what form that takes, whether it's an email or a voice call, Zoom call, in person meeting, the buyer has invested their time and attention in you. You have to enable them to earn a return on that time and attention. And that just doesn't happen by coming in and sort of trying flog your product. It happens by sort of being in this process together with the buyer, right? Really understanding what's important to them. Being focused on how can I help you achieve what's most important to you? And then you become the differentiator, not the product or the company.
Why You Need to Become a Leader in Sales Instead of Trying to Spam the Marketplace · [14:21]
Will Barron:
I think you alluded to this, you've mentioned technology a few times in the show so far Andy. This is an important question, but it's going to have an obvious answer. How does this translate into the world that we're living in right now in modern B2B sales, where seemingly most salespeople just want to sit behind spammy, automated, semi personalised cold emails, and just flog the whole marketplace, hoping that they find the right person, at the right place, with the right pain, at the right time, who will maybe get on a call with them? How does what we're talking about here, the strategy of leading through the sale and adding value each step, and you being the experience differentiates versus the competition, how does that translate into this world of just spamming crap at people and praying that someone responds?
Andy Paul:
Well, you're going to trigger me here. It requires a culture change, right? There are many, many industries right now where the win rate on their most qualified opportunities is acceptable, considered acceptable if it's like a 20%. Meaning you're winning one out of five of your most qualified opportunities. Yeah. I mean, a lot of companies are playing the game just as you described. They're getting really good at, we're going to put a tonne of opportunities through our demand gen and lead gen and to the top of the funnel. And if we're just moderately effective at selling, we'll close, yeah, 20% of our qualified opportunities. And that will be enough to enable us to grow. But, that parties not going to last forever. At some point, you, as an organisation, you as an individual, need to learn how to sell. Because, Hey, we're in the midst of 14 years of uninterrupted economic growth. But Hey, we know things can go off the rails pretty quickly.
Andy Paul:
I mean, look at the unfortunate situation in Europe, in Eastern Europe. I mean, who knows what that leads to? We fall into a recession or something. Yeah. Those ways aren't going to work as consistently and as reliably. You're going to have to learn how to win a higher fraction of the opportunities, meaning that you're going to really pay attention to how you sell. And unfortunately, many cases it's not. And so there are small companies and midsize companies have taken the wrong lesson from some of the successes of the companies that have grown using these methods, thinking that's that method that's enabled the company to grow, that sales method. When actually it's the product being in the right place at the right time.
Will Barron:
Now, respectfully, I'm trying to do this politely, but you'll understand. You have been through and been in the game for a lot longer than what I have, right?
Andy Paul:
Yes.
The Changes to Expect in Sales Incase of a Recession · [17:00]
Will Barron:
So, you were working through the 2008 recession and there's been ups and downs since then and prior to that, right? Because obviously, what's going on in Ukraine, what's going on elsewhere in the world, we're due just a massive recession or like a nose dive, just load of crap are getting thrown at our plate in the not distant future. It's inevitable at this point. How does sales change in that period? And is it the people, when the person's really get, and we've just come through COVID and all this other stuff as well. So, that's perhaps a taste of some of what's to come. But, how does sales change in that kind of environment? Does the spam work then, or does it just go down to zero at that point? And then it's down to salespeople who actually are capable of selling, capable of leading, capable of guiding someone through a sales process and adding value every step of the way? Which side do we want to be on when the shit hits the fan, Andy?
“You can't really help somebody get to that position of understanding what's the shortest time to the value of your solution if you don't really understand what would have the most value for them.” – Andy Paul · [18:58]
Andy Paul:
Yeah, well, not the former. It's more the latter, right? Because, there's going to be more people chasing fewer dollars at that point, right? So this idea of differentiation through how you sell becomes more crucial. And your ability to ensure that every time you interact with a buyer, that you're helping them make progress toward making the decision, hugely important. Because, and I said, you become the differentiator. And you're saying, “Gosh, when I'm working with you, when I understand what's really most important to you, then I can help you sort of work through this problem.” Which is, we see when things are tough and this came through at sort of the beginning of COVID, is yes, some decisions were deferred. But, the ones that went forward were the ones that had the shortest time to value for the purchaser. And you can't really help somebody get to that position of understanding, what's the shortest time to value with your solution, if you don't really understand what would have the most value for them.
The 80/20 Rule in Sales · [19:10]
Will Barron:
What's the 80 20 of getting to this point? Because it seems like what we need is the ability to ask great questions. We also need industry expertise. We need to understand the industries that our customers are selling into, or the market that they're servicing. But, this is stuff that maybe takes five years, 10 years, of head down sales experience, right? To nail some of this. Whether it's the contacts within the space and all this kind of stuff and building-
Andy Paul:
Well, some.
Will Barron:
So, whats-
Andy Paul:
Some. I mean, I would argue that, I mean, fresh out of school, I knew nothing about business and the customers, my customer's businesses and so on. Yet, I had some success right out of the gate. And what it came down to for me was this ability to ask questions, right? And to make sure that continue to ask questions, so I made sure I really understood the buyer and their concerns and what they were trying to achieve. And I just got better as I added industry expertise to it and had more experience in selling. But I would say if you start with the basics, as I talk about in my book, anybody can have these conversations, regardless of the level of expertise they have.
Will Barron:
So the ability to ask questions is perhaps from a timeframe perspective is the 20% that can give us 80% of the results?
Andy Paul:
Yes.
Will Barron:
Because that's what we want to ramp up to.
Andy Paul:
What you're driving at. Yep.
The Only Framework You Need to Ask Better Questions · [20:42]
Will Barron:
So with that said, then, and I realise this is kind of going against the whole premise of this show. Is there a framework to asking questions? Is there a structure, not necessarily a script? But, other than just being curious, which, when I was selling medical devices I was insanely curious. I loved talking to surgeons about this insane equipment that I was passionate about selling. I know it sounds ridiculous to anyone who does not really understand that space, but it was such a cool environment to be in. A cool product. I'm a massive tech nerd, right? I love chatting about all the different, even how things were cabled up, right? It was insane. I loved all that kind of stuff. So I was insanely curious. So, with curiosity, hope we can hopefully tick that box.
Will Barron:
If you're in a crappy job selling to crappy people and a crappy product, you need to perhaps change what you're doing, if possible, right? That will a lot of boxes automatically. But, are there any structure to asking questions or any questions that we should be asking? Is there any kind of framework to be able to enable us to ask better questions, especially if we are perhaps not at the point where we can do this kind of unconsciously competently at the moment?
Andy Paul:
Right. Yeah. So again, hard not to flog my book necessarily, but yes. In my book, I write about six sort of core question types that sellers can ask and should ask. And the thing is, to reach a level of mastery, it's how you combine the questions to help you get to where you want to go. But, examples of questions are, and one of my favourite for this are I call impact questions. And so the impact questions are causing the buyer to think about what the impact of making a change would be, or the impact of not making change. But, to quantify what that impact is in one regard or another. And it's really useful. You use these impact questions sort of in layered forms, right? What's the impact on the organisation of making a change, impact on your team, impact on you personally.
Andy Paul:
But, when you get people thinking about, “Wow, what would this mean for me, right? What will the impact be? How do I quantify what that be,” whether it's time spent or time invested or dollars or whatever. I start thinking more deeply about what it is they're trying to solve from a challenge standpoint and what they potentially can achieve. One example I talk about in the book, another I talk about in the book are insight questions. We always, not always, but you hear people talk about, Hey, insight led selling is we have to be prepared with commercial insights to tell our buyers. True. But, I think more importantly than telling insights is conveying insights through the questions you ask. And so where the buyers sort of arrives at that insight by themselves.
“An insight question is the type of question you'd ask a buyer where you're going to ask them something about their business that they should reasonably be expected to know, but possibly don't.” – Andy Paul · [23:25]
Andy Paul:
So an insight question is the type of question you'd ask a buyer where it's, you're going to ask them something about their business that they should reasonably be expected you to know, but possibly don't, right? So, it's something that's going to cause buyer sort of sit up and think, “Oh, that's really interesting. I hadn't thought of that before.” The fact that you asked that question, in their mind they're going, “Clearly, they've got some industry expertise to come up with this, because this is an insight into my business.” And then a little bit of fear missing out because they know this from the people they're working with, the companies they're working with, what am I missing? So it's just an example, two of the six question types that you can actually, as you get into the book and you read them you think about, okay, how can I pair these up now to sort of say, “Okay, this will become sort of a standard questioning routine I use maybe to open the door to a little deeper insight into what's most important to the buyer.”
Practical Example of an Insight Question · [24:20]
Will Barron:
What would be an example, I'm kind of putting you on the spot, but I know you can handle it. What would be an example of one of these questions for selling B2B sales training? Or you can use a different kind of niche you like. But, what would be an example of a couple of these questions in that kind of context?
Andy Paul:
Well, I would start with an impact question, right? Or we could even start with an insight question. I mean, for example, in my consulting business, in the past, a question I used with CEOs was, “All right, so tell me, how many hours of selling time does it take you on average to move a prospect from initial point of contact to a close?” And the response was generally crickets. Now, the problem with that is this is one of the most core questions you should know the answer to as a CEO, as a sales leader, because this really dictates how productive your sellers are being. How many dollars of revenue are they generating per hour of actual selling time? And this dictates what your productive capacity as an organisation is. How can you really forecast unless you know this? But more importantly is it gives you information about how effective your sellers are in front of the buyer.
Andy Paul:
So, if you're selling sales training, this becomes pretty important because then you say, “Okay,” you want to look at that data and say, “Okay, well, how does John differ from Jennifer in the dollars of revenue they generate per hour selling time?” You now suddenly have some information about again, how effective they are in those moments that matter with the prospects, and what you might need to do to change and to train them up. Could be you'll learn some of that through listening to their calls or whatever. But that's just one sort of question that gives you some, it's a conversation trigger. It's a discovery trigger with the buyer. Because, if they don't know the answer, they are certainly curious to find out what the answer is.
How to Come Up With Insightful Questions For Your Buyer · [26:19]
Will Barron:
Love it. Absolutely love it. Okay. With that said then, how do we come up with some of these questions? Right? Because it seems like this isn't something that we're doing on the fly. We're not coming up with this magic in the moment. These are somewhat thought out beforehand, and maybe we need to test some of this as well when we're looking for prospects to have crickets, to have bright eyes on the Zoom call, and go, “Hmm, great question.” And start kind of stumbling in their words, getting back to us. Is this a case of getting the sales team together, brainstorming ideas, leveraging different people's experience? Is there a process that we can go through to write these kind of questions? How do we go about formulating a series of these questions so that hopefully the audience can start using some of this today?
“Insight questions require that you really understand what your buyers are doing with your product and service.” – Andy Paul · [27:03]
Andy Paul:
Right. So insight questions require that you really understand what your buyers are doing with your product and service. So whether this working with your success team, working with marketing team, with case studies. And you start with the premise, which in my experience over decades has proven out almost a hundred percent of the time is, the buyer has found a use case for your product or service that they didn't anticipate when they were looking at it. And from that use case, they're extracting value from your product and service that they hadn't anticipated. And you want to find, through conversations with your buyers, your customers, what those are. So whether that's your sales team, your success team, marketing team, it really requires you to be in touch with your existing customers and make sure you're asking these questions of them and really exploring. Because, this then is the source of insight, right? It's not that, “Hey, 60% of our buyers get this value from using our product.” It's like, sure, you sort of expect that. But, where are the unexpected sources of value that they're generating, unexpected use cases? Find those out. And then those become the substance that you use to create these insight questions.
Will Barron:
So would that be-
Andy Paul:
They exist. They exist. You find with, I mean, I've found for decades, won't say how many decades, in selling to who from the largest corporations in the world to small business, is there's always one thing in there. There's always one thing that was unexpected, that was surprise, that again, generated or helped generate a return on that investment that they hadn't anticipated.
Why Your Buyer Needs to Understand the Value They’re Getting From You · [28:53]
Will Barron:
So would we be asking questions to a good customer, get them on the phone going, “What did you think you were buying the product for? And then why are you continuing to use the product moving forward?” And then I guess we can, if we did this across sales team, we could document this into industry. And then when speak to a certain person in that industry, we can perhaps refer back to the documentation. We frame it in a question, but it's almost like a case study of value as well, right?
Andy Paul:
Almost. But then you want to have them quantify the value they've received from it, right? I mean, one of the key things in qualifying buyers, make sure that you have a firmly and finely qualified prospect, is you need them to do their internal math and work to say, “Look, if we think we're going to get 10% market share increase, or we're going to save X amount in cost savings or generate additional sales,” until the buyer does the internal work, and internal business case to justify and say, “Look, yeah, we quantified what the value should be of making this change. We know what it means in Euros or dollars or whatever.” Well, now you're doing it on the other side of the equation. Now they've put it to use. Yeah, let's quantify. What is this value that you actually received? And so it's starting with those questions. You talked about then digging deeper and saying, “Yeah, we need to reduce this to dollars.”
Will Barron:
Should every conversation-
Andy Paul:
When you do that, you'll find the sources. I'm sorry.
Get Your Sales Qualification to Yield Better Results · [30:26]
Will Barron:
Should every conversation be like this? Or is it fine occasionally to go, “Okay, well, it seems like you need our product. Here's our product.” And the deal is done. And obviously it happens rarely, but it does happen. Is there a reason, is there value in going these few steps deeper, no matter how easy the sales process is going through? Or is this reserved… Go on.
“In the B2B world, a high fraction of qualified opportunities end up in no decision. The buyer simply decides to do nothing. And in my experience, most of those turn out because the buyer hadn't taken that final step of doing their internal justification for the investment based on a quantification of the value they're going to receive from doing it. So if you can't get the buyer to a point where they actually say, “Oh yeah, this is going to mean an extra $200,000 to the bottom line,” you run the risk of ending up in a no decision. So even if the deal looks easy, get the buyer to quantify the value they expect to receive from it. Absent that, you run a real risk of being a no decision.” – Andy Paul · [30:54]
Andy Paul:
Well, because in the B2B world, a high fraction of qualified opportunities end up in no decision. Buyer decides to do nothing. And, my experience has been, and my belief is that most of those turn out because the buyer hadn't taken that final step of doing their internal justification for the investment based on the value, a quantification of the value they're going to receive from doing it. So they might as well just stay where they are. So you can't get the buyer to a point where they actually say, “Oh yeah, this is going to mean an extra $200,000 to the bottom line.” You run the risk of ending up in a no decision. So even if the deal looks easy, yeah, get the buyer to quantify the value they expect to receive from it. Absent that, you run a real risk of being a no decision.
How to Create a Summary of What The Buyer Should Expect from Your Product or Service · [31:40]
Will Barron:
Amazing. Final question for you Andy, that is, I assume we do, but how do we document some of this? Because if this happened in conversations and you get people super excited and their loving the conversation with Andy Paul, he's really opened our eyes. There's this unique value in this opportunity that they didn't see beforehand and you've communicated effectively and that they're loving it. But then a week later they've forgotten about it, right? Or a month later when they've got Bill, they champion the account on board and then they've got to get signed off from the CFOs pushing back. And maybe they are not as able to communicate what you've described as what you are in the call with them directly and the CFO doesn't want to meet with you. How do we, and again, I'm assuming this is part of the process.
Andy Paul:
Yeah, sure.
Will Barron:
How do we document some of this so that it can be kind of shared within the account, or it can be communicated on our behalf, by our champions?
Andy Paul:
I'm a big believer in summarising what you think you've learned and sending it to the buyer. So to confirm, first of all, I'm a big believer in confirming it in person, first of all. And I take it a step further in the book because yeah, it's fairly common sales training. Use your reflection questions, reflect back to the buyer what it is you thought you learned. Get them to confirm it. Sure. That's great. But there's usually a missing step when you're doing this in person, which is, “Hey, this is what I think, Mr. Prospect, this is what I think I heard. Did I get that right?” “Yeah. You got that right.” And then you say, “Okay, so what are we missing?”
Andy Paul:
And when you put in that, what are we missing, after you've confirmed everything, again, it's another opportunity that causes the buyer to stop and think, “Yeah, what are we missing?” Right” and an opportunity to open the door to further discovery. You do that, again, you summarise it again, but make sure you send it back to the buyer in writing in an email, somehow you memorialise this and then make sure that you've got the note in your CRM system as well, so that you can track it. And so part of what you're doing is continually sort of refreshing the memory of the people you're dealing with, because what happens as soon as you stop talking with the buyer? They forget about you. And that's natural, right?
Andy Paul:
I mean, it's funny. I read these studies where people, research analysts, decry, “Oh gosh. During a buying process, the buyer only spends 17% of their time with sellers.” It's like, sure, that's fine. I mean, that's probably high. I mean, they've got real jobs to do that don't involve talking to you about buying a product or service. So you need to think about the fact that, how do you keep their knowledge about what's going on sort of up to date and current. And yeah, you're going to do a bunch of that through written communications, or you summarise your communications. You remind them of it and refresh them and say, “Okay, now we're ready to go to the next stage. This is what happened before.”
Pausing, Probing, and Extending: The Art of Great Questioning · [34:47]
Will Barron:
Final, final question here. I know that the last one was the final question, but you've done it a few times in the podcast, Andy, when you've given examples. How important is it for sales people, right? To be able to ask a question and then just shut up and take that little bit of stress and pressure with the buyers that perhaps they're struggling to come up with an answer. I said you've used it a couple times in your examples, because this is something I see really lacking in sales people when we're training them, right? The ability to just go just stoic faced and just sit there. And if you're on a phone call, you just mute your call, right? And run around the room and kind of get the stress out. But if you're on a Zoom call, you've got to sit there and wait for the prospect to respond. How important is that for a skill to implement everything that we talked about today?
Andy Paul:
It is important. And I talk about it in the book. And this idea that they can't shut up and listen is driven by the fact that they want to respond, right? When they're listening, they're not listening to understand. They're listening to respond. And so this is the thing, the habit that needs to be broken. Is because yeah, if you're already formulating your response to the buyer while they're giving you the information, you're not really capturing the nuance of what they're trying to tell you.
Andy Paul:
So, what I recommend my book is just a simple pause between hearing and listening to what the buyer has said and before I respond. And what I talk about is sort of Americanism is like, when we play touch American football is we talk about giving something a one Mississippi, that's a count, right? Giving something a pause before you take an action. So when the buyer finishes speaking, say to yourself, “One Mississippi,” say it silently. You don't have to say it out loud. But, you're giving yourself that space to process what they just told you before you respond. And that's really important. So building this beat, or maybe two beats, depending how long it takes you to say one Mississippi. And then you get a chance to absorb what they've said, process it, and then formulate an appropriate follow on, either question or a response of some sort.
Parting Thoughts · [37:00]
Will Barron:
Amazing stuff. I appreciate that, Andy. Well, with that mate, tell us where we can find more about the book, the title, where we can find out more about the man, the legend, Andy Paul, himself as well.
Andy Paul:
Here's the book, Sell Without Selling Out, back on the full screen. Is available at Amazon or wherever you buy books. And shipping in the UK on the 22nd of March, I believe. And available most places now, unfortunately proverbial supply chain issues, getting the book to the UK. They can follow me on LinkedIn. I have a very active presence there. You can listen to my podcast Sales Enablement With Andy Paul. And finally come to my website andypaul.com.
Will Barron:
Amazing stuff. Well, I'll link to all that in the show notes of this episode over at salesman.org. And with that, Andy, it's a pleasure as always. I appreciate your time and your insights on this-
How To Sell Like A Copywriter | Salesman Podcast
Mar 30, 2022
On this episode of the Salesman Podcast, Andrew Bolton explains what a copywriter is and how the art of copywriting can make you a much better seller.
Andrew has been a copywriter for 12 years. He’s worked with some big brands and plenty of tiny ones too. He teaches copywriting on the Creative Advertising & Creative Writing courses at the University of Lincoln and is the author of bestselling book ‘Copywriting Is: 30-or-so thoughts on thinking like a copywriter’.
You'll learn:
Sponsored by:
Free SalesCode assessment
Learn your strengths and weaknesses in an instant. Taken by over 10,000+ of your competitors. Don't get left behind.
Take the free assessment
Featured on this episode:
Host - Will Barron
Founder of Salesman.org
Guest - Andrew Bolton
Experienced Copywriter
Hi, my name is Will, and welcome to today's episode of the Salesman Podcast. On today's episode, we're looking at how you can sell like a copywriter. Today's guest is Andrew Boulton. Andrew's been a copywriter for 12 years. He's worked with some big brands and plenty of tiny ones as well. He teaches copywriting on the creative advertising and creative writing courses at the University of Lincoln. And he is the author of the best selling book, Copywriting Is…: 30-or-So Thoughts on Thinking Like a Copywriter. With that, Andrew, welcome to the show.
Andrew Boulton:
Hello, thanks for having me.
Will Barron:
I'm glad to have you on mate. Copywriting is something that is top of mind for me at the moment as sales people move from, I guess, 20 years ago before I was in sales. I imagine you could knock on doors, you could pick up the phone, you could… The gift of the gab and a bit of a silver tongue probably open up quite a few doors, whereas the world we live in now, whether you are emailing, texting, creating content, whatever it is to get attention in the marketplace, clearly copywriting fit into all of this.
What is Copywriting and How Can We Use It To Improve Our Sales Processes? · [01:05]
Will Barron:
So with that said, though, I think there's going to be at least a few members of the audience, Andrew, that are unfamiliar with the term. Can you tell us just to get us started what copywriting is, if there's a definition of this, and then I guess what the goal of copywriting is for a salesperson, someone who needs to generate meetings and get deals done.
Andrew Boulton:
Yeah, of course. I think there's probably going to be more than a few people who aren't necessarily immediately familiar or very familiar with the term. And you mentioned at the start, I teach on a creative advertising course and a creative writing course, people who are very much young people who are primed to kind of go into those careers where copywriting is a very big part of kind of the industry and very few of those students know what copywriting is.
“Copywriting is simply using words to drive action.” – Andrew Boulton · [02:10]
Andrew Boulton:
So sadly, I think it's one of those things that sort of slips under the radar. I think in essence, if you ask me to kind of summarise what it is, it's the business of kind of communicating about your brand, communicating about your product, ultimately trying to persuade your audience to do the thing you want them to do. It is kind of using words to drive action.
Andrew Boulton:
So regardless of what your business is or what your brand is or how you think or what you think kind of the big drivers and the big sort of pullers are within those organisations, words, and copy and your messaging and how you present yourselves and how you kind of communicate, what makes you good and sort of worthwhile comes down to copywriting. Whether you're currently using a copywriter or not, copywriting is kind of one of those big pillars that props up the effectiveness of how your business speaks to the people that you want to turn into customers and keep as customers.
The Art and Science of Copywriting · [02:50]
Will Barron:
For sure. Okay. So when we talk about persuading in sales, there is this constant battle. And I'm flipping on this. I go from one side to another. I've got a background in science, I've got a degree in chemistry, I'm a public scientist. So if there is data, if there's science, if there's a way to systemify things, I'm all in.
Will Barron:
But persuasion a lot of the time is leaning into people's emotions. There are many uncontrollables when we're going about persuading or influencing or lodging a prospect one way or the other. So with that said, is copywriting… Again, this is cliched in sales, but I don't know if it translates to copywriting. Is copywriting a science? Is it an art? Is it somewhere down the middle? Can it be measured? How do we know… I guess what I'm asking is, is it an art, is it a science? Then can we measure the effectiveness of copywriting?
Andrew Boulton:
I suppose in the same way you ask the question about sort of sales in general, yeah, it's a combination of those things and it becomes a very sort of dangerous and self defeating business if you feel compelled to kind of pigeon hole into one thing. So if I copywrite purely based on sort of science and data and what the spreadsheet tells me is likely to persuade people, you end up with something that probably lacks a lot of the kind of the heart and the human voice, that all good kind of messaging and communication requires.
Andrew Boulton:
Equally if I sat down and wrote a poem because I'm feeling it especially somehow artistic and creative, it might be very a beautiful writing, but it's very unlikely to do the thing I needed to do. So I think if you are looking for sort of the answer to that, it's kind of one thing propped on another. And usually in the process of copywriting, you probably start with some harder evidence or somewhat kind of concrete data to lean upon, even if it's nothing more spectacular than a relatively detailed view of who your customer is and what sort of motivates them.
Andrew Boulton:
But then I suppose it is still very much a kind of creative job, even if your starting point is based on insight and based on human truth, you then have to do something with that that makes it something people are going to want to read and want to notice and feel like they recognise and appreciate the voice. Because that's the only way you're ever going to kind of land that message.
“I could have all the data and the evidence, the facts and the science I like, if I don't sort of come up with a voice and a method of communicating that data such that people are going to care about watching or listening or kind of engaging with, then all of that has kind of been a waste.” – Andrew Boulton · [04:45]
Andrew Boulton:
I could have all the data and the evidence and sort of facts and the science I like. If I don't sort of come up with a voice and a method of communicating that that people are going to care about watching or listening or kind of engaging with, then all of that has kind of been a waste. I think when we talk to the students about copywriting and persuasion in particular, you try and train them that you can't just be expected to kind of pull these answers out of your own head.
Andrew Boulton:
If you take on this sort of first person perspective and just think about what would or would not persuade or engage you, then you are giving yourself a very limited frame of reference. And I think we try and introduce them as much as possible to some of the big thinkers in terms of sort of behavioural science. Richard Shotton and Choice Factory is a huge part of what we do, is training people to be creative advertisers.
Andrew Boulton:
Thaler and sort of the whole nudge theory with stuff we introduced, what Rory Sutherland is saying and Alchemy is a particularly important book for sort of the way we teach it. So I think it's one I've given you a really long and unhelpful answer that says I don't know. I think it absolutely has to be both, but what I do know for certain is if you try and do one or the other of art or science, it's very likely that either attempt would fail.
The First Step to Writing Perfect Copy · [06:05]
Will Barron:
Sure. So what is the… I think you might mentioned it then in your answer Andrew. But what is the starting point for all of this? Is it coming up with our ideal bio persona? Is this something that we need to document? Is this something we need to do by interviews, customer interviews, and find out who those individuals are rather than making assumptions about who they are? And then we, I don't know, do we visualise them as we're typing away writing copy of what they would want to receive in their inbox? What do we need to do before I guess we start putting the metaphorical pen to paper.
Andrew Boulton:
I think it's one of those things where I'm always really reluctant to kind of ascribe a process or any kind of universal process. Because what works for one creative or what works for one salesperson is going to be really, really different for another. It is about what produces the best results and the sort of most comfortable experience or most rewarding experience I suppose for you.
Andrew Boulton:
I think yeah, of course, you sort of need to know something about your target, your prospect, your consumer. Whatever language you use within your organisation, it all boils down to fact it's a person. It's a person who lives a real life, has got real sort of challenges, real needs, real motivations and we have to start understanding them. So I'm certainly not against sort of data and I certainly recognise the value of what data can do. But that data often needs translating into something that is real and human.
Andrew Boulton:
And I've certainly worked on briefs where there's been sort of a fantastic volume of kind of insight and data, but no real attempt to make it as something that I could translate into a real person living a real life. So again, I suppose it feeds back into the art and science question again, isn't it? There is no point in sort of putting a huge amount into the science of this understanding and this portrait you create of consumer if you don't then go back it up with some real life interaction and some real experience of who these people are and what their lives are, and ask them to have an honest conversation with you.
Andrew Boulton:
I mean, like a lot of your listeners, I've sat in on sort of consumer testing sessions and I've seen a bunch of people, sat around a table, being asked questions. And the same bunch of people I've sort of chatted to either before or after the session and found them very ordinary, very sort of typical, real people speaking in the way real people do and you put them around this table and they behave completely different.
“The first step before writing anything is about going into the natural environment for your customer and your audience, just observing it and being part of it and sort of experiencing it as much as possible. I think that is as valuable, if not more valuable than all the stuff you can do with your spreadsheets and your data and your modelling.” – Andrew Boulton · [08:40]
Andrew Boulton:
And it becomes less a representation of kind of real human beings living real human lives and more about you are a subject in a study and you are going to kind of behave as if your answers or your responses are somehow being evaluated, which I suppose they are. So I think something about going into the natural environment for your customer and your audience, just observing it and being part of it and sort of experiencing it as much as possible in the way they do.
Andrew Boulton:
I think that is as valuable, if not more valuable than all the stuff you can do with your sort of spreadsheets and your data and your modelling. But I think as a copywriter and anyone who's trying to kind of reach and persuade an audience, you will be really foolish to sort of turn your back on anything out of principle. I think you've got to sort of try it and see what kind of results it produces.
Andrew Boulton:
I suppose the other part of your question is, can you measure it? Can you measure the effectiveness of persuasion? Well, on one very basic level, yes, of course you can. If you put certain copy into a certain ad in a certain place, and we sell 10 lawn mowers instead of two lawn mowers, I suppose on a really sort of basic level, you can attribute that to the effectiveness of persuasion and sort the whole sort AB testing model we see on a lot of digital advertising where it's simply a matter of the arrangement of words, this arrangement of words that performs that arrangement of words.
Andrew Boulton:
And sometimes we never particularly understand why arrangement A outperforms arrangement B. But again, I think you've got to be really wary in terms of performance of just basing it on the numbers, on the spreadsheet, on what's that column doing. That can only be a part of the story. And it goes back to conversation, it goes back to kind of understanding who your audience are, not on a theoretical or an empirical level, but on a real human level.
Andrew Boulton:
And that's when you start to learn the conversations they have, the conversations they want to have and what they want from you. This mistake that so many brands make go out and just start talking straight away about how great you are and what you do and how you do all these things better than everyone and you never kind of stop to consider, “Well, what is it that our audience actually kind of cares about? What do they want from us?”
Copywriting is the Perfect Alignment and Arrangement of Words · [10:35]
Will Barron:
I love this. And tell me if this is something that you commonly say. You came out with it almost flippantly, but I think it's amazing. You called copy an arrangement of words. Am I, who's a beginner in this, trying to over complicate this whole conversation? And should we think about it more as an arrangement of words to drive an action, as opposed to art, science, data and everything else that I'm trying to tie into the conversation?
“The word story and storytelling has been badly battered by the world of marketing. It's been misused and has almost been ridiculed slightly because of the very sort of pretentious, very over elaborate ways people have used it. But fundamentally, that's what you are trying to do. You're trying to kind of create these narratives because human beings deal in stories. We engage with stories, we sort of frame our own lives in stories and we tell ourselves stories in order to live. All of these things are really, really true.” – Andrew Boulton · [11:47]
Andrew Boulton:
Yeah, and you're absolutely, and I think that's like anything in this business, like anything in sort of sales or marketing or advertising, it's so easy and it's so tempting to kind of over complicate stuff, which are of fundamental sort of human conditions. And the word story and storytelling has been sort badly battered by the world of marketing.
Andrew Boulton:
It's been misused and has been almost kind of ridiculed slightly because of the sort of the very sort of pretentious, very over elaborate ways people have used it. But fundamentally, that's what you are trying to do. You're trying to kind of create these narratives, human beings deal in stories. We engage with stories, we sort of frame our own lives and stories that Joan Didion quote about, we tell ourselves stories in order to live. All of these things are really, really true.
Andrew Boulton:
And if you can strip away a lot of the bollocks, apologies with that language, but if you can strip away a lot of that kind of unnecessarily fluff that these things get packaged in and get back that fundamental sort of human truth about it, it is the arrangement of words, it's the right words in the right order. And it does sound flippant, and I know it does and I have to caveat this when I say it to the students.
Andrew Boulton:
But if you can focus on doing that one thing brilliantly, even at the expense of all the other things that come with being a copywriter and working in this industry, you will do well. You will produce good stuff and you will create good work and you will drive good results because that's the heart of it and there's a lot of stuff around it which you can let go of.
Why Humans Crave Succinct and Easy to Read Copy · [12:42]
Will Barron:
So if the vehicle is an arrangement of words, and the action we're trying to drive is to sort to do something to persuade them, to whether it's, I guess, traditional copywriting, which is whether it's direct response, or kind of via advertisements as we know them as opposed to what we're talking about here, perhaps, which is more a sales person sending an email and getting a call booked on the back of it. If it's an arrangement of words to drive an action, what are the fundamental human conditions that underpin all this? Is it as simple as humans want to move away from pain, a move towards pleasure, or can it be narrowed down even more than that?
Andrew Boulton:
I think without getting into sort of very, very broad sort of big concept stuff, it all boils down to needs. So this is like an industry sort of propped up on needs, an industry sort of defined by and existing entirely because of it. Sort of consumerist society, sort of capitalism growth of advertising, sort of back in the 20th century, anyone has ever watched an episode of Mad Men. It is all about need.
Andrew Boulton:
It's all about this kind of desire to sort of tap into this kind of growing need amongst consumers and to satisfy it. And as kind of competition grew to satisfy those needs, and it became more about sort of multiple choices in any particular category. It was all about kind of proving that you are the best response to that need. But it still boils down to initially it's got to be a recognition that people need stuff.
“If a salesperson is opening an email with a paragraph all about how brilliant they are and how great they are at sales and how wonderful their product is and all these wonderful things that we like to talk about, it's going to be really hard to ignore it because you're talking about you and you're talking about your stuff. And as humans we've got a finite capacity for things we are willing to give our attention to and engage with. And if you don't capture me in that first sentence by explaining to me or demonstrating to me that you are here to satisfy a need of mine, or you are here to resolve a problem of mine, you are here to do something that is going to make my life better or easier in some sort of small or big way then your thing is really easy for me to cast aside.” – Andrew Boulton · [14:17]
Andrew Boulton:
And we talked about a salesperson sending out an email hoping to generate a lead. But I think I mentioned this earlier. If that salesperson is opening that email with a paragraph all about how brilliant they are and how great they are at sales and how wonderful their product is and all the things that we like to talk about when we're kind of existing within the bubble and we're kind of sort of wrapped up with the insular nature of what it is we do, which everyone, everyone in this business is guilty of at some point or another.
Andrew Boulton:
If you open your email with that, it's going to be really hard to ignore it because you're talking about you and you're talking about your stuff. And we've got finite capacity for things we are willing to give our attention to and kind of engage with. And if you don't sort of capture me in that first sentence by explaining to me or demonstrating to me that you are here to satisfy a need of mine, or you are here to resolve a problem of mine, you are here to do something that is going to make my life better or easier in some sort of small or big way then your thing is really easy for me to cast aside.
Andrew Boulton:
So again, I think we could easily over complicate this. And we can either easily kind of attach sort of models and methods to it, however credible are our kind of extra layers of complexity on something that should be as simple as you need a thing, I can provide that thing and I'm going to let you know that I could provide that thing.
How to Understand Your Prospect’s Needs Using One Email · [15:36]
Will Barron:
Egos aside because I think I'm pretty good at sales, right? I do all the copywriting on our training and our product and all that kind of stuff on the marketing material. And we're a seven figure company and it should mean a few freelancers. So objectively I'm probably okay at it, obviously no expert. I've never done any formal training copywriting.
Will Barron:
But I think I've read a few books, read your book, I think I know a few things about it. But taking my ego out of it, is it physically possible for an individual salesperson like me, perhaps I'm selling to the enterprise, I'm trying to book a meeting with a chief marketing officer or a CRO or someone like that. Is it possible for an individual in one email to elicit a need out of a prospect and book a meeting?
Will Barron:
And what I mean by that is it feasibly possible to do that in a few lines or do you need the prospect to already be aware of the need, to be wanting to solve the need and then we're just getting in front of them at the right place at the right time and that's the momentum that allows us to book a call? Can sales people do this on their own, or do sales people need to lean into the multimillion billion dollar marketing industry or marketing department in their own organisation that's trying to do a lot of this behind the scenes?
“If you have a tool or a function or a capacity that allows you to make sure you're only sending your email to people who we know are more likely to be receptive to the thing that we're trying to sell them, why wouldn't you do it? It'd be sort of crazy not to want to speak to those people.” – Andrew Boulton · [17:10]
Andrew Boulton:
Of course. I think if you have a sort of a tool or a function or a capacity that allows you to make sure you're only sending your email to people who we know are more likely to be receptive to the thing that we're trying to sort of sell them, why wouldn't you do it? It'd be sort of crazy not to want to speak to those people.
Andrew Boulton:
But I suppose there are also sort of times… Sorry, computer problems. There are sort of times where you're casting your net a bit wider and you don't always have the sort of specific group of leads ready to go. I suppose the other big sort of factor in all of this, and it's true for sales, true for marketing, true for advertising, is there's also a degree of chance, there's also a degree of sort of fortune about it.
Andrew Boulton:
And you might send your email, your perfectly crafted, beautiful email to the perfectly chosen lead and it just so happens at that particular moment, they are distracted, irritated or kind of thinking about something else and that chance goes by and everything was right. The message was right, the sort of target was right, the means of context in them was right. Just the moment, the sort of sheer circumstance of it meant that that thing didn't come off.
Andrew Boulton:
Equally, you could send your message to someone who is a very unlikely prospect and it just so happens in that second, they thought about the thing that you do, or they realised that they needed what you do and it comes together that way. And what a lot of people in the industry don't want to acknowledge or spend too much time acknowledging is there's a huge amount of just chance, pure blind luck that goes into this as well.
Andrew Boulton:
That's not to say that you shouldn't always try and do things in the best way and try and do things in a way that's most likely to result in success. But if any of us ever start to think that we are sort of omnipotent and sort of in complete control of this process, that is probably sort of the signal that you need to go and do something else.
The Number One Factor That Determines The Success of Your Copy · [18:57]
Will Barron:
With that said then, how much of the success of copywriting, and we'll continue on this route of a salesperson building an email cadence where they're going to perhaps send maximum of 10 emails over the course of three months so that they're maximising the chances of being in the right place when there's a trigger event or in the account or the prospect literally finds 10 minutes for a call or whatever it is.
Will Barron:
And we'll assume that each of the emails are going on what you've shared so far, Andrew, that each of the emails are not based on… Always they're based on the arrangement of words is how we can help the individual, what they're going to get out of just jumping on a quick consulting call with us. So we're pointing this in as much of a favourable light as we possibly can.
Will Barron:
How much of the… What percentage of the effectiveness comes from the words on the page at that point versus just a number of impressions? Or I guess a better way of wording that is how important is just the number of impressions of a similar message that we can help someone over and over and over again, whether it's via us and our sales outreach, or marketing getting involved in doing a campaign for that account, how much of the effect of copywriting comes from just impression, impression, impression versus the words on the page?
Andrew Boulton:
I think the whole sort modern marketing industry is built towards this idea of kind of a cumulative wearing down if I was going to be cynical about it where we're going to say the thing, we're going to say the thing that we do and the thing we sell and the thing we you to engage with, and we're going to say it everywhere and sort of whole sort of retargeting on websites.
Andrew Boulton:
You're not allowed to look at something on the internet once. If you've looked at a jumper on a website once, that jumper will haunt you for the rest of your days. So it is one of those other size, isn't it? Where there's someone somewhere far clever than me has obviously identified that there is value in kind of hitting people from lots of different angles and kind of putting this thing on their radar in all the different places they are most likely to be.
Andrew Boulton:
And I can't say I have any complaint about that. I don't particularly feel any affection for it but I see why it exists. Again, I feel like I keep giving the same answer to every question, which is really unhelpful, but it boils down to a much kind of simpler truth than that. And it is still got to be about a quality message. It's still got to be about a compelling story.
Andrew Boulton:
It's still got to be about the right way words in the right order ideally at the right time and to the right prospect. But it's driven by language, it's driven by kind of communication. And if you have got a really clever system to ensure that the perfect message is landing at people's doorstep, in all the sort of various places that we want to kind of reach them and if we've got a magical formula that says that you need sort of someone to see your message three or four times before it sinks in, fine. I'll take your word for that because I don't know any better.
Andrew Boulton:
But you still cannot convince me that any of this means anything if you are not getting those words right, getting those messages right. And I think people sometimes don't work with a copywriter for a lot of reasons. It could be the finance of it, it could be that they don't sort of see the value in it or they don't realise what a writer can contribute. And a lot of what I hear is anyone can write. I can write, why would I pay someone to come and do it for me?
Andrew Boulton:
I think if you think that, and there's no judgement attached to this, but what I would urge you to do is find a few pounds in your budget and just get a copywriter to come and spend a couple of hours with you and do one project. Just do one very, very sort of tiny thing for you and just watch them. Watch how they do it, watch how they approach it and watch what they come up with.
Andrew Boulton:
And I think you will honestly see a remarkable difference. And in terms of the words they put on the page, it's not going to be sort of dramatically different from where you would've ended up. But the detail of it, the consideration of it, the reasoning that goes behind every sort of word and why that word is chosen and why that word is adjacent to this word and why this forms that sentence, and it's a craft.
Andrew Boulton:
I suppose we talked about sort of science and art, didn't we? Well, maybe the appropriate word is craft. And like any craft, it sort of takes time and skill, and it is accumulated over years and years of sort of practise. But I think if you've never sort of experienced that and you've never really thought about what a difference a professional copywriter could make to the sort of quality and the effectiveness of your messaging, go and find a good copywriter and let them show you what they can do. Because I don't think you'd go back, I don't think you'd fail to be convinced by that.
Will Barron:
For sure. And just to add a layer to that, head over to salesman.org. So I said I did all the copywriting on the website, but we've hired two copywriters. One of them just sucked, but the second fellow, Tim, he's done all of our emails in our sales cadence. So if you sign up for our free sales assessment, you can get a series of emails.
Will Barron:
A lot of them are, I guess 99% of them are value based giving you insights based on your assessment results and a few of them will push you to the training product based on the back of the results of what we can help you with. And it's interesting because there's some… what you would see straight through, right? But I almost see a little bit of black magic of, I will go in some of these emails and be like, “Well, I would change that. That's not really my voice, I'm going to change it slightly.”
Will Barron:
I change a few words and then it reads like absolute crap. And I don't know what's changed, I don't know what flow has been altered. But Tim who's wrote the emails, I think he's wrote like 60 of them for us now, they go out of the course of a few months after, again people sign up for this sales code assessment. There's just this like… I can't describe it, almost like there's a story being told, there's emotions being pulled and it's almost like a beat to the email, a bam bam badam dada.
Writing Good Copy is a Craft Every Salesperson Should Master · [24:54]
Will Barron:
And as you're reading through it, you want to get to that next drop of the beat and it drags you into them. And as I said, I've tried to experiment of… Tim's from Europe, obviously I'm from the UK so there's a few phrases and words that I was like while I might say this, he might say that. So I tried to change them. And then one sentence change in the whole of the email and it falls apart. That to me is insane, to you, Andrew is probably obvious, right?
“Everything a good copywriter will do for you, every word on the page is there for a reason. And what you are paying for is that attention to detail, that sort of precision.” – Andrew Boulton · [25:49]
Andrew Boulton:
I think, well… And I mean, first of all, it sounds like hire Tim is the message here, hire Tim. I think I would be being slightly mischievous if I said to you that copywriting is this sort of house of cards, where if the layman lays one of the sort of dirty fingers on it, then it's all going to fall pieces. But it goes back to what I said. Everything you got a good copywriter will do for you, every word on the page is there for a reason.
Andrew Boulton:
And what you are paying for is that attention to detail, that sort of precision. That's what I talk about when I mean sort of craft. So I've seen it happen many times where you write something that you feel is kind of perfectly calibrated, it sounds really sort of [inaudible 00:26:07] for me to say that, but this sort perfect calibrated sort piece of copy, and you give it to someone and they feel like they need to change this world or change this sentence or move this thing to the top and this thing to the middle, and it's like a game of chess unravelling.
Andrew Boulton:
It takes probably three moves to bring the whole thing down, whole thing crumbling down and then you can't repair it. It's you go back to the beginning and see what you can do. So it isn't, it's nothing magical or mystical about it. It's this very sort of precise approach and this precise understanding of language. And I think you said the word sort of rhythm when you were talking about Tim, hire Tim, everyone. But you said the word rhythm, and that's a big sort of invisible part of copywriting.
Andrew Boulton:
And I think people say, “Well, copywriting, I will assess the words and the sentences and the paragraphs are on this page in front of me and that's all I'm looking for.” Well, no, you're looking for sort of the tone, the rhythm of it. The rhythm is trying to sort of replicate the way that human beings speak to each other, a conversation. If you had a conversation with a colleague or a friend or even a stranger, the rhythm of that conversation would be very, very different.
Andrew Boulton:
And if I ask you to write down that conversation on paper and what a copywriter does, it writes almost for the ear. Even though it's going on to the page and it's never intended to be kind of read out loud, we write it in a way that when it's translated in somebody's brain, into kind of almost like this audible message, then that rhythm is there. It feels comfortable, it feels engaging.
Andrew Boulton:
We know what kind of rhythms, even if we can't articulate it, we know what kind of rhythms we would listen to. We know what kind of rhythms are really sort of monotonous. There's a very famous experiment by writer Gary Provost and it's called, here's a five word sentence. And he shows you how monotonous it is when you write a paragraph where every sentence is five words long, and it becomes droning and it becomes dry and it becomes mechanical. So I think this is what you're paying your copywriter for. It's not even just what you're looking at, it's all the other considerations that kind of go beyond that.
Andrew Analyses the Copy Over at Salesman.org · [28:20]
Will Barron:
You can say no to this and me and the audience won't hold you against it, right? Do you want to pull up one of our pages and just go… Perhaps the first few lines on there and see if you would… And feel free to hand me my ass here and make me like a fool on the show, right? Is that something you do? Because I think that might be valuable for the audience to get [crosstalk 00:28:23].
Andrew Boulton:
I will do it with a massive caveat. I'm probably not going to say anything very useful and insightful.
Will Barron:
Yep. Well, I'm sure you will. Because I'm feeling embarrassed before you've even opened it. If you want to go to salesman.org and click the academy link at the top of the page, do you want to… We're doing the… And for the audience, anyone who's listening to this show, as opposed to watching it, we're doing this kind of in real time. So you can forgive Andrew and I if… And I was bad prepared, Andrew, I would've got it over to you ahead of time.
Andrew Boulton:
Okay. Well academy, yeah. Okay. So the one that says a simple system to find and close more outbound sales in the next 30 days.
Will Barron:
Correct. Any thoughts on that as kind of the upper third of the page?
Andrew Boulton:
Okay. Well, hang on a sec, let me have a look. Even if you… Okay, right. So first of all, I like the dog. I like the little dog, he's nice. A simple system to finally close more outbound sales in the next 30 days. Now, there probably isn't anything particularly exciting about that, but there's real clarity there.
Will Barron:
Sure.
Andrew Boulton:
You are talking about, here's the thing that we're going to give you. We're going to sort of equip you with this very specific skill and also you're giving people a sort of timeframe. So it's a very sort of typically sort of sales driven message, but there's a directness to it, there's a sort of transparency to it. So I have no problem with that. Sounds really mean, and this is a very, very sort of small thing.
Andrew Boulton:
I don't like the case, I don't like sort of the title case, upper case letter on every single thing, but that is a purely subjective thing, but change that for me please. What I do like, if we move down to sort of this next grey bar, an effective four week sales training and one-to-one, one-on-one sorry, mentoring programme that shows you how to find more leads, close more deals step by step.
“There's this thing in copywriting which I always say to people: you can't afford to waste a word. Every word must be serving a purpose, every word must be kind of driving you forward in that journey.” – Andrew Boulton · [30:37]
Andrew Boulton:
I think what you've got here, and I don't know if this is your writing or this is Tim or whoever's responsible to this, there's this thing in copywriting which I always say to people you can't afford to waste a word. So you are dealing often in very sort of small sentences, small paragraphs, just compact messaging basically. And because of that and because of the attention spans of the kind of the people you are trying to engage and trying to communicate with, you cannot afford to waste a word.
Andrew Boulton:
Every word must be serving a purpose, every word must be kind of driving you forward in that journey. And what I would say about that at a glance is I feel like that's a pretty tight sentence. I think it says very sort of clearly what it is you want to do. I think that the thing I enjoy is the four ticks. So even if you hate working sales, if you don't feel motivated, even if you don't have a sales process and even if you feel overwhelmed.
Andrew Boulton:
So I think this is this thing here where you're starting to kind of demonstrate an understanding of the resistance, so the understanding of the kind of the reasons why people might not want to do this, or might not like sales in general or might feel that this is a big challenge. And one of the biggest things, I suppose you can kind of convey in any kind of message like this where you're looking to drive a relationship or drive a transaction is you need to demonstrate an empathy.
Andrew Boulton:
You need to demonstrate, we understand what you need, but we also understand what you don't need and what you don't want and what motivates you and what doesn't motivate you. And I think that honesty, it sounds… Brands always talk about their honesty and it makes me wince a little bit because that should be the very bare minimum that you are prepared to give me.
Andrew Boulton:
But even so, I think this direct human honesty that says, “We know you might hate this. We know you might be afraid of this. We know you might feel like this is a massive pain in the ass. But even if those things are true, this is the thing for you, this is the thing that's going to make it better.” The implication here is that the pain is going to go away. We're going to make it less scary or irritating.
Andrew Boulton:
And I think what you end up with then is a message that is not really about a course or a sales programme or anything, even especially professional, it's a message that resonates on a very human level. It's about you've got a problem or you've got an anxiety or you've got a particular distaste for something and we are going to give you something that doesn't sort of trigger any of those things, but is going to actually really help you and you're going to find rewarding.
Andrew Boulton:
So on a totally sort of off the cuff assessment of your sort of top five inches of website, there's a lot of really effective stuff in there. I think the sort of the tightness of the copy, the sort of the efficiency of the word choice and that very sort of early recognition that we kind of understand your worries or frustrations or fears around this thing. I think you end up with something that feels very clear and very honest, which is two very sort of positive characteristics to kind communicate.
The Difference Between a Good Writer and a Professional Copywriter · [33:04]
Will Barron:
I think you… So I wrote this and I think you've nailed it, absolutely nailed what I struggle with copywriting. And this goes for this page. And if anyone who's interested, go to salesman.org/salesdeskpage, and you'll see. And I'll link this in the show notes as well over at salesman.org in the show notes, this episode.
Will Barron:
But you nailed what I struggle with, which is I can be very analytical. I feel like I can cut words out of sentences and make them nice and tight. What I really struggle with is adding a layer of emotion, adding a bit of story to it, adding… And I guess this is the scale, right? I'm very good at… No, I'm not very good.
Will Barron:
I feel like I can physically do the logical side of things, you should jump on a call with us because we do this, we solve this problem, you're going to have this benefit at the other end of it, does it make sense to jump a call? But then when I see someone who knows what they're doing with copywriting, again, there's just this little bit of elegance to it and there's a little bit of, it's not human, it's like personality that's driven in. Is that the bit that separates the hacks like me versus the pros like yourself?
Andrew Boulton:
Well, I think it's a really sort of risky business and it's a very sort of common thing where people equate a sort of a human personality with emotion. And I think the industry is probably fairly guilty of kind of overestimating or overusing sort of emotion. There's absolutely a place for kind of emotional response in sales and marketing and advertising.
Andrew Boulton:
Emotion is one of the sort of key drivers of what sort of persuades us, of what drives our sort of memory are willing to kind of act and participate in things as we're seeing at the moment this week with sort of some really impactful campaigns around sort of supporting the people of Ukraine. It's using emotion as a way to drive very direct, very specific action, and it's doing it really effectively.
Andrew Boulton:
But there's not really a place for every single sort of sales and marketing message for an emotional thing. Some things are largely kind of functional or let's say they are kind of functional emotions rather than sort of pure emotions. And what we are offering here on this particular page, it's all about functional benefits. It's all about we're going to make your life easier in these ways, we're going to make you better with your job in these ways.
Andrew Boulton:
And the implication there is you become better with your job, you become more successful. You might improve your mental health, you might improve your sort of family life as a result of that. All of that is the kind of the unsaid stuff. But the direct thing we are talking about is a very, very sort of functional, practical benefit. And you know what? There's nothing wrong with that. There's no harm in that.
Andrew Boulton:
You want to try and express that in a human way and you want to try and express it in the way that real people would speak to each other, but there's nothing wrong with saying our benefit is simply this thing. It's not about filling up your heart with joy. It's not about playing on any sort of finer feelings than that. It's just about saying here's a great thing that we think you'll find useful, that we think will make a difference to your life in sort of some small but important way. And that's okay.
Andrew Boulton:
And I think a lot of the time you see brands who have either been told or believe for themselves that everything has to have this emotion in it. And I think that's when you start to get into the most insincere and inappropriate kind of brand messaging you see where they are trying to kind of give themselves a bigger and more significant role in our lives, than they really weren't.
Andrew Boulton:
So if you are a kind of fizzy drink, there is only so far you can go in terms of kind of bringing me any real and sort of meaningful joy in my life. And I think unless you as a brand are aware of those limitations, you are going to cross that line and make yourself look rather silly and make me feel like I don't really want to drink this fizzy drink that has such a high opinion of itself.
Emotional Copywriting and Why It’s So Effective · [36:54]
Will Barron:
For sure. I won't put brands in your mouth. But as you say that for me, I sometimes see Coca-Cola adverts, McDonald's adverts and they make me cringe that why are all these beautiful people doing all these things and having all this fun and it revolves around a drink? But then the flip side of that is I see a Red Bull advert, or I see Red Bull certainly inserted into the downhill mountain bike and I was watching this morning and I guess is wider branding as opposed to just copywriting.
Will Barron:
But Red Bull's terrible for you, don't drink it. Everyone listening to this, it's absolutely terrible for you. But it's a cool drink. And if I was good to drink a drink like that, I would be drinking Red Bull rather than Cola Energy or whatever kind of they point out because it makes me feel different to the cheesy adverts that are clearly massively successful.
Andrew Boulton:
Yeah, of course.
Will Barron:
Because what's a bigger brand than Coca-Cola and McDonald's? Right? But they obviously don't resonate with me specifically. And just on that, the point of the emotion, I think that was really useful for me, selfishly, and hopefully this is useful for the audience as well. Because I, and I feel you just subtlely told me off there for wanting to add perhaps more emotion and things to this page.
Will Barron:
And I think sometimes I see some competitors in our space, Andrew, who are like, where I talk about simple systems are going to remove overwhelm, we're going to give you a sales process, we're going to… It's all logical. We're going to help you out each way. You're going to make more money at the end of it by the basis of having process in place, right? We make sales simple, that's what we do.
Will Barron:
Versus I see some competitors that are indirect competitors because they're probably attracting a different type of buyer in the sales training space, but their marketing is, “Hey, we're going to make you another 200 grand this year. We're going to do this. We're going to do that.” And it's almost a bit sleazy, it's a bit weird. And so I appreciate what you're saying then of the… Because at a certain point, you add so much emotion that it becomes scamlike, it becomes weird.
Will Barron:
If you're saying it's going to do all these incredible things, when it is just a series of calls and trainings that you kind of… There's a weird, I don't know what you might… There might be a word to describe it in copywriting but I feel like it gives me a weird gut feeling that someone isn't quite right here when you get too far beyond the logical.
Andrew Boulton:
I think it's one of the words that you can't go more than a few steps in some of our business without hearing there's authenticity. And there are probably sort of two different approaches to that or sort of two different philosophies around that. One is that authenticity is integral to what you do. And it shouldn't be something we have to kind of define or create or kind of integrate into this business, it should just exist.
Andrew Boulton:
And we are real people, we understand our customers are real people. Here are some things we stand for legitimately because we believe in them, here is what we feel our kind of products or services can do and why they exist. And it's never discussed in any meaningful way because it goes without saying that it's a part of why we exist and everything we do.
Andrew Boulton:
And I think there's another side where authenticity becomes almost like a brand value. It becomes this kind of this artificial creation. It becomes as created as a logo or packaging design, this sense of authenticity that you've had to kind of manufacture. But why I think it matters and why I think sort of as an industry we're obsessed about it so much is because it's probably sort of the biggest single influencing factor in sort of why we sort of choose to give our money to a brand or we don't.
Andrew Boulton:
And not on any sort of complex or probably sort of a trackable level, it's just that human beings especially in this generation, I think have an inbuilt detector for what feels real, feels like it's coming from like a human voice, if not a human person and what feels like bullshit. And I think I see a huge amount.
Andrew Boulton:
I think one of the sort of the biggest, if not the biggest growth in sort of advertising marketing messages that I've seen over the last few years is for crypto, like crypto bro stuff. And I know I'm not being dismissive of anyone who sort of understands sort of crypto and invests in it and does well out of it. Good for you, fill your boots. It's way beyond my comprehension.
Andrew Boulton:
But I look at the adverts for it and sort of it's got a certain tone to it, it's got a sort of an aggression, it's a bit of a cliche but it's got a sort of this kind of over the top masculinity to it where it's like, “Dude, you could be earning a million pounds in your pants before lunch time.”
Andrew Boulton:
And I think most people would look at that and go, this feels gross, this feels, your word, sleazy and I don't believe it. This feels like a scam. This feels like the language of scams, but you know what? Do you know why there are so many ads that behave in that way, so many ads that use that kind of tone, that language, those constructs? Because there is an audience and a significant audience who it works on.
Andrew Boulton:
And never in my life have I ever heard one of my friends be able to recite a famous kind of advertising slogan or a headline from an advert, never ever once. And they all know what I do, and they know what I work and they know what I teach and they're just not engaged in that world and they can't really sort of tell me anything beyond sort of the tango man sort of slapping that guy in the face back in late '80s.
“If there is an audience out there and you know that your audience responds to a certain thing, even if that thing feels horrible and sort of inappropriate, there are brands and there are businesses who will capitalise on that. But we use that kind of thing and they know they're excluding the majority of people, but they don't care about the majority of people. They care very specifically about this kind of target market they are likely to persuade and they know this is the way to do it. ” – Andrew Boulton · [42:21]
Andrew Boulton:
But I had a mate who said, “Oh, that I saw this ad for crypto and it said this.” And he could quote me the exact headline from this ad or this kind of marketing message. So do you know what? If there is an audience out there and you know that your audience responds to a certain thing, even if that thing feels horrible and sort of inappropriate, there are brands and there are businesses who will capitalise on that.
Andrew Boulton:
But we use that kind of thing and they know they're excluding the majority of people, but they don't care about the majority of people. They care very specifically about this kind of target market they are likely to persuade and they know this is the way to do it. So authenticity is massively important as a general rule. But like all the sort of the best general rules in this business, there will be many significant occasions where it goes out the window.
Will Barron:
I mean, there's two things here that I'll just add. Again, not putting words in your mouth, Andrew. One with crypto, a fool and their money are easily parted, right? So if people are targeting a specific type of person, a specific age, probably blokes who are 18 to 25 kind of thing, they're doing that for a reason.
Will Barron:
And obviously we've both been somewhat flippant here, but there's massive sophistication behind what they're doing in the messaging and the AB testing of it all and the millions of impressions that they're running through to suss this out. But also if you were trying to build a long term business that's going to survive changes whether crypto's here or it isn't in 20 years time, maybe you take a different approach, right?
Will Barron:
Maybe there's some short term kind of push for some of this that influences whether people are happy to be burned, whether people are happy to feel gross, whether people understand whether it's a gamble or they should think is an assessment, they think it's an investment. So all that ties in too, I guess. I'm conscious of time because I really enjoy this conversation, mate. I'm genuinely really enjoying it.
The One Thing You Should Never Do When Writing Copy · [44:07]
Will Barron:
So I've got one final question. And we've talked quite high level about this, and if you can give us a real practical answer, I think this would be really valuable for the audience. So with regards to copywriting, again, from the perspective of a B2B salesperson, they might be creating small micro bits of content to add value to the potential customers.
Will Barron:
They might be writing sales emails. They might be, I don't know, maybe doing a little bit of marketing on the side, whatever they're doing. But in that kind of context, Andrew, what is one thing that the audience should never do ever, ever, not even if they think about it, even if they think it might work, what is the one thing that they should never implement within the world of arranging words on a page?
Andrew Boulton:
So I think there's lots of things I'm tempted to answer to this, but I think in the spirit of the question, I will choose one. And I think the biggest temptation you'll get, whether you are a copywriter or not. If you are writing something for a website, for an email, for a sales message, whatever it might be, the biggest temptation is to sit down and to write it and sort of take your time and to think about the words and arrange it all out and get it into sort of a perfect place and pour your sort of heart and soul and sort of energy into it all and then feeling so sort of pleased and proud of yourself and your creation, just assume that's it and that's the end of the process and you can sort of stick it up into the place that it wants to be and it can go out into the world.
Andrew Boulton:
The value of copywriting and the value of sort of the processes and systems set up to make copywriting work is that it requires input. And it requires you to be able to sell your copy into somebody else. It's the frustrating part of the job and it's often the sort of the thing that kind of leaves copywriters sort of sad and broken. But it also helps ensure that the message is doing its job.
“If you've written something, even if you have no client, even if you are the client, find someone to go and read it to. And I mean, very specifically, read it out loud to. Let them look at it on paper, but first, you are going to read it out loud to them, and that's the perfect way to sort of detect sort of if you've got the rhythm right, if you've got the sort of tone of a human voice right, if this sounds like something that would sound pleasantly in your brain like we've discussed. And that person can be connected to what you're doing. It can be a potential customer, it can be someone within your team, but you just need that kind of external view on it.” – Andrew Boulton · [46:00]
Andrew Boulton:
So if you've written something, even if you have no client, even if you are the client, find someone to go and read it to. And I mean, very specifically, read it out loud to. Let them look at it on paper, but first, you are going to read it out loud to them, and that's the perfect way to sort of detect sort of if you've got the rhythm right, if you've got the sort of tone of a human voice right, if this sounds like something that would sound pleasantly in your brain like we've discussed.
Andrew Boulton:
And that person can be connected to what you're doing. It can be a potential customer, it can be someone within your team, but you just need that kind of external view on it. Now, what they say to you, what they suggest doing, you don't have to change everything that they suggest changing, but you almost need to see it through another person's eyes and get their thoughts. And that's when you start to kind of really evaluate it.
Andrew Boulton:
But because we are in this very sort of fast moving content world, the temptation is always write and publish in the same breath. And that is where mistakes are made. And a lot of the time, those mistakes will be very sort of low consequence and it will just mean you've got a piece of clunky content out there and it's not going to cost you anything. But there is always the chance that it could make a difference. And a poorly written email could be the end of a potential lead for one reason or another.
“However tempting it is to kind of write and publish, I think, write, pause, review it yourself, and then go find someone just to kind of get their thoughts and get them to listen to it, get them to read it, get them to understand what it is you're trying to achieve. And listen to what they have to say.” – Andrew Boulton · [47:15]
Andrew Boulton:
So however tempting it is to kind of write and publish, I think, write, pause, review it yourself, and then go find someone just to kind of get their thoughts and get them to kind of listen to it, get them to read it, get them to kind of understand what it is you're trying to achieve. And listen to what they have to say.
Andrew Boulton:
There's no prizes for kind of doing it all by yourself in copywriting, you don't get any rewards if every single word on there is yours and yours alone. Take a bit of help, take advice and take other people's opinions and I think it will make you a better writer and a better communicator of your ideas.
On Writing Well · [47:51]
Will Barron:
That makes total sense. We've just done two hours ago, a whole podcast, Andrew, on how to edit content, how to rewrite emails. So I'm so glad that you've said that. I think it was On Writing Well, was a book that I found that was valuable for helping me write less crappy content. And the main thing I took away from that was just delete anything that didn't need to be there. If that sentence doesn't add any value, just get rid of it. And that changed… Again, I'm very average of all this, I'm not saying I'm very good at it. But that took me from real shit to average in one fell swoop.
Andrew Boulton:
And I think it's a really good point. I think find a good book on copywriting. My book is more about the thoughts and life of a copywriter but there's some excellent books which I would consider to be almost kind of guide books, like handbooks to how to be better at it.
Andrew Boulton:
And the first one that springs to mind is a book like Gyles Lingwood who I know is a lovely guy, he's written a fantastic book called Read Me. I would also add Dan Nelken. He's written a book, A Self-Help Guide for Copywriters, which is amazing. It's honestly one of the sort of the best books on the subject I've read. But that's just two out of many.
Andrew Boulton:
A book called Junior by Thomas Kemeny is excellent. I could give you a huge long list but I think start with those ones. And if this is something you are interested in getting better, then these people are great teachers of the simple sort of the craft of kind of how to just produce better messaging, sort of better copy, better sentences, more persuasive ways to kind of say what you're trying to say.
Parting Thoughts · [47:53]
Will Barron:
Very good. I will, if it's cool with you, I'll drop you an email after the show. I'll get a list of books that you recommend for our audience, your students and we'll put them in the show notes of this episode over at saleman.org. But Andrew, tell us more about your sir, tell us where we can find out more about you as well.
Andrew Boulton:
Oh, thank very much. So I wrote a book called Copywriting Is…: 30-or-So Thoughts on Thinking Like a Copywriter. It was an idea that was sort of swimming around in my brain for years and years and years and I finally got the chance to do it. I forced myself to do it. And it was a very long and a sort of painful process. But I'm very sort of pleased with where we got to.
Andrew Boulton:
It's published by a wonderful publisher called Gasp Books. Giles Edwards is my publisher, he runs sort of Gasp Books and he runs the Gasp Agency. He's horrible idiot, but he's also a lovely man. And so that's that in the world. And we sort of released it with just feeling very sort of satisfied that we managed to kind of get this thing created and produced.
Andrew Boulton:
And we were staggered and startled and all of those other things to find out we became a bestseller. We were the bestselling advertising book on Amazon alongside a list of some authors who I absolutely love and some books I absolutely love. So it was an incredible thing. So it's gone far better than I thought we ever imagined it would and it's still selling.
Andrew Boulton:
So if you are interested, like I said, it's not a guide book, it's not a textbook in copywriting, but gives you an idea of what the copywriting life is all about if you are interested. So there's that. At the same time, Giles and I, Giles Edwards and I also wrote a book, a children's book. And we tell people it is the world's first ever children's book about copywriting. We think that's true. No one's sort of sued us yet so we think that's the truth.
Andrew Boulton:
And it's called Adele Writes An Ad. Both of these books available from unfortunately, Amazon, but also sort of any good bookshop in the UK. And we're very, very proud of that and we are hopefully the aim of that is just to try and persuade more young people to kind of follow the copywriting path. And the only other thing I sort of have left the plug on.
Andrew Boulton:
I'm speaking at the copywriting conference, the ProCopywriters Copywriting Conference in October in Brighton. It's the best copywriting conference in the world. In my opinion, ProCopywriters do some incredible work for the industry. So I'll be there speaking live rambling away. If you are interested, you are around, you'll be able to find tickets on the ProCopywriters site.
Will Barron:
Amazing stuff. Well, I'll link to all of that in the show notes to this episode over at salesman.org. And with that, Andrew, I appreciate your insights, the conversation. I appreciate me throwing the website in your face mid interview and you going through that. I appreciate that, mate. And I want to thank you again for joining us on the Salesman Podcast.
The Perfect Elevator Pitch – Best Examples and Templates
Mar 29, 2022
Selling is all about communicating value. And if you can’t communicate your product’s value, your potential buyers sure as hell aren’t going to be itching to work with you.
Mastering an elevator pitch is one of the most effective ways to quickly and effectively pique your prospect’s interest and set the foundation for a successful sale. And crafting your elevator pitch is exactly what we’re talking about today.
The Pitch
More than most professions, sales reps know that time is precious. And everyone—whether it’s a secretary, executive, career buyer, or even coffee deliverer—everyone takes how they spend their time seriously.
If you’ve ever cold-called, you know what I’m talking about. Have you ever been through a morning of cold calling where you haven’t been hung up on? Someone who doesn’t see the value of your pitch won’t even waste their time letting you finish.
Now for sales, that presents a bit of a conundrum. How the heck do you communicate your product or service’s value with such a small sliver of your prospect’s time?
That’s where the elevator pitch comes in. The elevator pitch is meant to quickly and effectively tell your prospects what it is you do and how you solve their problems. But a well-crafted elevator pitch isn’t just helpful when you’re stuck in a room with someone for 20 or 30 seconds. It can also boost your cold-calling success rates, refine your messaging for follow-up emails and meetings, or even inform your final pitch strategy when it comes time to close.
So, what does a great elevator pitch look like? Well, let’s jump in and see.
1: The Clean Open
Now, the very first step of an elevator pitch is to map out your opening.
This step is all about being clear and straight to the point. So be sure to cut the crap, nix the industry jargon, and toss aside any and all buzzwords here.
Essentially, you want to create a single sentence that tells your prospect what you do, who you can help, and how you can help.
To accomplish that, all you have to do is follow a simple yet incredibly effective formula…
“I Help X Do Y By Z.”
For me and the Selling Made Simple Academy, mine would look something like –
“I help sales professionals find and win more outbound sales using simple selling frameworks and one-on-one mentorship. We’re trusted by 2,000+ students.”
That’s it.
And anyone can use this formula. “I help small businesses stay compliant and reduce their liability by providing accredited and experienced tax consultation.” “I help dog owners’ pets look their best by offering boutique grooming services.”
See how easy that is?
When you start with a clear, value-driven statement using this formula, you’re setting the stage for prospects to better understand and internalize the next step…
2: The Story
Stories aren’t just for passing the time during your off-hours or putting the little ones to sleep. They’re actually powerful selling tools.
See, humans are hard-wired for stories. The earliest evidence that we’re storytellers goes back tens of thousands of years. And studies have shown that messages wrapped in a well-constructed story are more likely to be understood, recalled, and internalized.
That’s why the next step in your pitch is to tell your prospect a story about a past customer you helped. Nothing too long-winded, of course. Just enough to get your prospect thinking about how you can accomplish the same results for them too.
Now, a few guiding principles here.
A) Cater the Story to Your Prospect
Cater the story to your prospect. The more relevant the story is, ideally in the same industry, the more it’s going to resonate with your prospect.
B) Explain Their Reality
Explain the reality that the hero of your story currently lives in. Tie it into the world of the person who is receiving your elevator pitch.
C) Identify & Agitate the Pain
Identify and agitate the pain. In the story, describe a problem a past client had that’s similar to your prospect. Inefficient team? Unmet sales goals? Whatever it is, it should cause your prospect’s ears to perk up. “Hey, that’s what I’m dealing with.”
Research here is helpful. But if you haven’t had the time and this is a fresh contact, you can touch on problems that are common throughout the industry too.
After that, dig into the pain points of the problem. Is it bruising their reputation? Are they missing out on promotions because of it? This “twisting of the knife” so to speak really helps the prospect connect with the subject in the story and makes the effect more powerful.
D) Point Out Success Barriers
Point out success barriers. What stopped the customer from taking action once they decided to solve the problem? Was it an overwhelming number of possible solutions? Cost of change? The risk of the solution not working out?
Touch on these barriers too. And if possible, focus specifically on ones you know the prospect has dealt with in the past.
E) Illuminate the End Result & Connect the Gap
Illuminating the end result and connecting the gap. How did the story’s subject feel after solving the problem? Were they able to achieve or even outperform their goals? Did they finally get that raise? Did they earn the respect from the C-suite?
What we’re doing here is getting the prospect enthusiastic about the future. They too could feel those things, achieve those results, and earn that respect.
And you are the one that helped them get there.
If you’ve done a good job at getting the prospect to relate to the story, they’ll feel compelled to reap those same benefits for themselves.
And once you’ve done that thanks to a compelling story, all that’s left is…
3: The Call-To-Action (CTA)
After you’ve given prospects a clean summary of what you do and told a quick story to really drive your value home, it’s time to inspire action.
What do you want your prospect to do now that they’re aware of you? Should they head over to your website? Buy your product outright? Or just give you a call when they’re interested in the benefits your services have to offer?
Be sure you’re closing your pitch with a clear and direct call to action. And if the situation calls for it, punctuate the CTA with an ask—
“Does it make sense to jump on a quick call tomorrow morning?”
If you’ve done everything right so far and the buyer’s a fit, a final ask is the best way to push them over the edge from prospect to a full-blown qualified lead.
Summary
When you create and practice an elevator pitch built on this model, you’ll not only never be at a loss for words when someone asks, “What do you do?” on the way to the fourth floor. But you can also use it in nearly all cold-outreach methods, follow-up communications, and even final pitch strategies.
All it takes is…
Crafting a Clean Open – Crafting a clean and direct opening using the “I help X do Y by Z” formula…
Delivering a Relevant Story – Delivering a relevant story that resonates with prospects and clearly demonstrates your value…
Giving Prospects a CTA – And giving your prospects a tangible call-to-action like getting in touch, setting up a demo, or even outright buying your product.
Simple. Effective. And versatile. This is the elevator pitch to rule all elevator pitches. And with it, you’ll be well on your way to upping your sales game faster than ever.
Q/A - Best cold prospecting tools? Nervous on cold calls? Video emails?
Mar 28, 2022
Questions asked:
Should I join a company as an inbound SDR? They say I can make it to AE within 6 months if I hit my quota of 5 meetings booked a week.
How do I get over being nervous on cold calls? I come across as anxious and I think that is being passed onto the person who I'm calling. I'm using the same script as everyone else but not getting good results.
I need to decide between a series of prospecting tools I've been trialing. I know you've promoted Lusha and Uplead but I also trialed Seamless and Apollo. In your experience which one is more worth it? Looking to get 100+ leads a day.
I've an interview coming up and I've been told there will be questions about time management. How do I answer these questions?
I want to join Selling Made Simple Academy. Why do I have to book a call? Can I not just sign up?
Have you/your team tried using video calls in cold emails? Do they help improve response rate like they claim?
What was the biggest sales commission deal that you got?
Thanks for all the content! I'm starting a new sales job tomorrow. Any tips?
Get Your Sales Emails Opened, Read And Answered | Salesman Podcast
Mar 25, 2022
Kim Arnold is a communication consultant, author and helps organisations avoid the wasted time and effort associated with poor communication. Her bestselling book, ‘Email Attraction’ has been featured in Forbes, the Financial Times and on BBC Radio.
In this episode of The Salesman Podcast, Kim shares insights into how the top salespeople get their emails opened, read, and answered.
You'll learn:
Sponsored by:
Free SalesCode assessment
Learn your strengths and weaknesses in an instant. Taken by over 10,000+ of your competitors. Don't get left behind.
Take the free assessment
Featured on this episode:
Host - Will Barron
Founder of Salesman.org
Guest - Kim Arnold
Communications Expert
Hi. My name is Will, and welcome to today's episode of the Salesman Podcast.
Will Barron:
On today's episode, we'll look at how you can get your sales emails opened, read, and answered. And today's guest is Kim Arnold. Kim is a communications consultant, author, and helps organisations avoid the wasted time and associated effort with poor communication.
Will Barron:
Her bestselling book, Email Attraction, has been featured in Forbes, Financial Times, on BBC Radio, a bunch of other places as well. And with that, Kim, welcome to the show.
Kim Arnold:
Thanks so much, Will. Great to be here.
Will Barron:
I'm glad to have you on. Okay. This is clearly an important topic for the modern B2B sale professional. Maybe 20 years, they could have got away with just having a gift of the gab, silver tongue, just calling people and breaking through, but clearly, email is incredibly important right now. It's typically the first step into getting a conversation going with a potential customer.
Whose Fault is it When a Salesperson Doesn’t Get an Email Response? · [01:50]
Will Barron:
So, with that said, let's set up the rest of the conversation here, whose fault is it, Kim, whose fault is it, right, when a salesperson, Sam, the salesperson, sends an email and gets no response? Is it the buyer's fault for just being too busy for ignoring Sam for being rude, or is it maybe Sam's fault for sending an email that just sucked and didn't elicit a response in the first place?
Kim Arnold:
Well, sorry, Sam, I'm afraid, it's your fault. It really is. Yeah, we are busy. We are overwhelmed at the moment. Our inboxes are groaning, and what we do is filter. We look through our inboxes and we look and we see what is going to give me the quickest value in my inbox. And we start there. Or what's the most urgent, what's going to get me promoted, what's going to win me more business, what's going to make my day brighter. And if he doesn't tick any of those boxes, then, I'm afraid it's gone.
Kim Arnold:
And actually, I was talking to a sales guy at a conference recently I was speaking at, and he said exactly what you've just outlined. He said, we're so good in person, we're charming. We're great at networking, we're brilliant in meetings, but these days, we can't even get clients on the phone, let alone, try and get them face to face. So you're having to do everything through email.
Kim Arnold:
And he was just saying, I can't communicate any of my personality, my charisma, my charm, all of stuff that works for me in person. I can't get it down on an email, and that is a big problem.
Will Barron:
So, I'm doing a bunch of work. A lot of our content goes on YouTube, and I'm working with a consultant in the YouTube space, a big YouTuber, to help us with our content. And he keeps telling me that I'm not riding this line of click bait close enough in titles, in thumbnails, in begin of introductions. And so… And I'll come back to email in a second, but it seems like the people, when people get into the content, they really enjoy it.
Email Subject Lines and Why They’re the Key to Getting Your Emails Read · [03:02]
Will Barron:
But getting that initial click through rate is something that we struggle with, and we need to work on. How do sales people beat the scanning of a prospect's email when they get up in the morning or at lunchtime, how do they beat that filter where the prospect's probably just, at this point in 2022, we call this deleting emails without even reading them? How do they break through that filter without leaning into a clickbaity subject line? Or is that what we need to do at this point?
Kim Arnold:
That's a really good question. Actually, a friend of mine showed me her phone the other day, I was looking at something, and she had 35,000 unread emails. And her strategy, she said, was just filtering at the subject line and they send it in the subject line. I mean, it filled with me with horror because I like to read all my emails, even if I don't reply to them. But that is what more and more people are doing at the moment, is filtering by the subject line.
Kim Arnold:
But as you say, there's a really delicate balance. We get turned off by click bait. So, one strategy to think about is where are those points of connection? And all too often with sales emails, we might write something like introduction to blah, blah, blah, whatever our company name is, or introduction to a service or a meeting request or something that just is very me, me, me.
“An email should be a conversation with a pause. It isn't a monologue. It's about starting a conversation. So, we need to find points of connection that we can use in our email subject line that are about them and not us, and that can make all the difference.” – Kim Arnold · [04:21]
Kim Arnold:
So, what we are trying to do in an email should be a conversation with a pause. That's what we're trying to do. This isn't a monologue. This isn't about, you know, warfare going out there and firing out these emails. It's about starting a conversation. So, trying to find points of connection that we can use in our email subject line that are about them and not us can make all the difference.
The HEC Hamburger Technique: The Basic Structure of a Good Sales Email · [04:43]
Will Barron:
What does that look like practically? Because in our training programme, we teach a certain way of doing emails. I don't want to dwell on that too much because I want to pull from you in this conversation in this podcast, Kim, but we teach basically what you described of if there's a connection that we can refer to, if we've been referred directly or indirectly, we're going to mention that, we're going to keep it conversational.
Will Barron:
We're going to elicit some kind of reaction, and then, almost open a loop, and then, ask, we're going to call to action to close loop on a call. Is there any structure to doing that other than what I outlined, or is there a basic structure of what a good sales email looks like? Or is it completely dependent on the prospect, the industry, and who we're trying to get in front of?
Kim Arnold:
So, there's a framework that I use in my book, it's called the HEC Hamburger Technique, and it's a really simple one. It's a three steps technique, and you can use it for writing any email, whether it's a sales email or just something to your colleagues. And HEC is H-E-C, and it stands for hook, explanation, and call to action.
Kim Arnold:
And the reason why I call it hamburger is it's like the three parts of a burger, right? The bun at the top's got to look appealing. That's the start of your email. You got to entice someone to want to open it. The explanation, the E of HEC, that's your burger, that's your meet the main point. And then, the C is your call to action. And that's the bottom bun and without that, you can't really pick up the whole thing and take a bite.
Kim Arnold:
So you need all three things to really make a difference. And it's very similar to what you described, but what I would encourage people is to make sure that you make the most of that first line of your email. Because what do we do? Most of the time, we write something like I hope you're well, or maybe this sort of posh version, I trust this email find you well, if we're trying to be very formal and proper, and it's a big deal that we're trying to get.
“We have three seconds to get someone's attention with an email, three seconds. And yet, we waste it with a sort of generic platitude.” – Kim Arnold · [06:51]
Kim Arnold:
And this is like the most valuable real estate in our email, we have three seconds to get someone's attention with an email, three seconds, three, two, one, it's not long at all. And yet, we waste it with a sort of generic platitude. And it doesn't mean that it's always disingenuous, but it can often sound disingenuous. It sounds like a cut and paste job.
Kim Arnold:
And that's the thing that we want to avoid with our sales emails. So, the hook has got to be personal. So, reference something that you know about them. Do your digging, look on LinkedIn. Do you have a connection in common? Have you been introduced? What have they been up to recently? Have they written something interesting? Have they said something interesting? Has the business done something interesting? Do a bit of homework, no cut and paste jobs.
“The explanation part of your email needs to be short and sweet. In fact, between 50 and a hundred words has been proven to be best for sales email, and that is so much less than you think. It's like three short paragraphs, that's it. So get to the point. Why are you writing? We don't need to know when your business was founded. We don't need to know how many offices you have. We don't need to know that you're the leading provider of software solutions. We don't need to know any of that. We just need to figure out what it is that's in it for the reader to keep reading and take action.” Kim Arnold · [07:32]
Kim Arnold:
So then, the explanation needs to be short and sweet. So, the overall size of your email between 50 and a hundred words has been proven to be best for sales email, and that is so much less than you think. It's like three short paragraphs, that's it. So get to the point. What is it, why are you writing? We don't need to know when your business was founded. We don't need to know how many offices you have. We don't need to know that you're the leading provider of software solutions. We don't need to know any of that. We just need to figure it out what it is that's in it for them, for the reader, to keep reading and to meet with you, if that's what you want.
Kim Arnold:
And then, your call to action at the end is got to be direct. So, not let me know if this is of interest, let me know if you'd like to discuss. It's too vague and it's too wishy washy. So, I would always advise a very strong call to action. I'm sure this is what you teach as well, Will. It's about making the next step clear and easy for the other person. So, do you have 15 minutes in your diary on Tuesday next week for a quick phone call? So, making it quick, easy. They only have to look at their diary once. They're not reaching around for dates, or you might give them two or three options. So, it's as simple and as easy as possible for them to take that next step.
Kim Arnold:
So H-E-C, hook, explanation and call to action.
Will Barron:
Love it. Extremely similar to what we teach, slightly different in, I guess, some of the terminology, but very similar, right? Our kind of call to action is typically, does it make sense to jump on a call to, and then, do whatever, closes the loop that we touched on earlier on. Amazing.
Will Barron:
Okay. So how much of this, Kim, because it's one thing for us to say this right? Me and you sat here on this podcast, tens of thousands of salespeople listening, but it's another when you go, okay, I'm listening to this show on the way to work, I'm going to sit down, I'm going to write an email using Kim's methodology here. And then, you sit in front of the computer, and you go, I could still go a million different ways. And 999,000 of those are terrible ways to write the email, even with that amazing framework.
Critical Factors That Determine the Success of a Sales Email · [09:10]
Will Barron:
So, with that said, how much of the success of these emails comes from, I guess, the scientific method of making a hypothesis, testing it in the marketplace, and then, refining it after the fact? Are we likely to write like these killer email straight off the bat, or is this a process of refining our skill as a, I guess, a copywriter over time?
Kim Arnold:
It definitely takes time, and we need to measure the right things. So we need to measure quality over quantity with email. And I work with a lot of sales teams all over the world, and one of the biggest problems tends to be that they judge themselves on their outbounds and not necessarily what comes back. So it's like, great. I've sent 30 emails this morning to this big list, and boom, boom, boom, boom, and I've just got them out. Woo, great. Let go for lunch. And then, they don't really measure what happens next.
Kim Arnold:
So, my advice is always to focus on quality over quantity. Write five really great emails that might have taken you twice as long, but they're thoughtful. They're engaging, they're conversational, you've done your homework. You've edited them. You've cut them down, so they're not waffly. You've gone back in there with a big pair of scissors, and you've chopped out the definitelys and the just, and the like, and the really, all these words that you don't need. You've tightened it up. You've made it really punchy.
“I think we need to share best practises in teams. Unfortunately, that often doesn't happen. Someone's writing really killer emails that work while the rest of the team are struggling. I encourage sales teams and all sorts of teams to share their best practise. Share what works, brainstorm why you think something did work or what's fallen flat. Give each other advice to really share those best practises.” – Kim Arnold · [11:26]
Kim Arnold:
So, that really is the key is to just keep iterating. This does take time. And it's also really helpful, I think, to share best practise in teams. Often, that doesn't happen. Someone's writing really killer emails that work while the rest of the team are struggling. So, I encourage sales teams, and I work with market teams, all sorts of teams, but share your best practise. Share what works, brainstorm why you think something did work or what's fallen flat. Give each other advice to really share those best practises.
Why Proofreading and Editing Your Emails is Your Ticket to Sending Better Sales Emails · [12:06]
Will Barron:
So, this is something that we've never really touched on on the show before, I think it's incredibly important. And I think I got my angle on this from, I think, the book's called On Writing Well, which I'll link, share through this episode for anyone who wants to check it out. And I'll butcher the quote, but essentially, I'm sure it was this book. It talks about this idea of if the sentence doesn't need to be there, just delete it. Just get rid of, it's gone.
Will Barron:
Can you tell us any other kind of angles or reiterate at that point even on the importance of editing emails? Not just spelling… So I'm a terrible speller, so I have to lean on other people to check my emails if it's an important one, or quote a proposals and stuff like that. But beyond spelling and grammar, how important is it to edit our emails before they go out? And do you have any other steps in the editing process other than just deleting things that maybe don't need to be there?
“Easy reading is hard writing. The longer it takes you to write an email, generally, the easier it is going to be for someone else to read. So, you need to take time to edit before you hit send.” – Kim Arnold · [12:47]
Kim Arnold:
Absolutely. Well, easy reading is hard writing. So, the longer it takes you, generally, the easier it is going to be for someone else to read. So, we need to take time before we hit send. Ideally, let it marinade, let it simmer. It's like a good stew. Okay? With writing, it's always best to come back to it.
Kim Arnold:
So, if you can write emails today before you send them, go back to them, have a look at them, does this really resonate? Am I hitting the point? So that's the first tip. Ditching the filler words is really important. We tend to use a lot of qualifying words, particularly women, I would say, in business, oh, if you wouldn't mind, perhaps, if you could, that would be great. Very sort of quite hesitant language. Would you mind if, so ditching all of that, becoming a bit more assertive, direct.
“Every bit of filler, every additional word is almost like a barrier to getting a prospect to read your emails. Unfortunately, we often underestimate visual overwhelm. If our email is too long, someone can’t just open and read through it all.” – Kim Arnold · [13:58]
Kim Arnold:
And absolutely just asking yourself, is this vital to my point? Is this going to make the difference between them saying, yes, I'd love to book in that call with you and not. Because every bit of filler, every additional word is almost like a barrier to getting them to read it. You know, often, we underestimate visual overwhelm. If our email is too long, someone can just open it. We've all had this experience. I'm sure you have, Will, you open up an email and you just go, ooh, I can't even face reading this because it looks like a wall of words.
Kim Arnold:
So, we need to think about how does this look, have I got lots of nice white space? Are my paragraph short? Does it look enticing? It's like those Michelin-starred chefs who make our meals look so beautiful and they twees on the micro herbs to make it look beautiful. They know that we eat with our eyes as well as with our mouths. And it's same with email. We judge on looks before we've even read a word.
Kim Arnold:
So, all of these things contribute to people reading our emails. There's one caveat here, is that we don't want to strip out all personality and brevity. So, we want clarity and we still want warmth, and we want charm, we personality. We want to show that we're a real human being. So, don't strip out so much that you become robotic, and it's very dry.
Will Barron:
I'm going to ask you in a second about humour, using images, GIFs, that kind of thing, because that was a real trend, I guess, a couple of years ago, and I think it's dying off a little bit now. Thank the Lord for that, Kim. And a good example here, if everyone's listening, of the difference between somebody who uses filler words and use qualifying words, as well as the other term you used there, Kim, was the difference between me and you.
Will Barron:
I use all kinds of filler words when I'm talking on these episodes, all kind of qualifying words, I speak too fast. I need to add more pauses. If you just listen, sales nation, as I speak directly to the audience and bypass you, Kim, which is a weird thing for me to do, and I've never done this on the podcast before, right?
The Dos and Don'ts of Using Informal Language in Your Sales Emails · [15:56]
Will Barron:
But sales nation, as you listen to this, if you listen to how Kim speaks, Kim sounds intelligent, conversational, yet, there's gaps, there's wide space. Versus if you listen to how I speak, I'm just throwing it down on the page, right? Is that a fair example, Kim, of how our email should look? The difference between perhaps how I speak on this show as… To be fair, I'm managing it, asking questions and monitoring things as well. Right? Is that a fair way to look at it of how you speak very professional… Not necessarily professionally, but eloquently, versus how I'm just like, just throwing things out on the page.
Kim Arnold:
Well, thanks for the compliment. First of all, Will, that's a nice analogy, but I think it does go to my other point. You know, we don't want to strip out all of our charm. Sometimes, a little bit of informality… We'll talk about humour in a minute, getting that personality across, sometimes, that's more important than perfect grammar and being incredibly precise.
Kim Arnold:
And actually, with email, we tend to err on the side of formality. I was speaking to a lot of sales people, and in fact, every everyone who writes email tends to sort of put on their jacket a little bit more like I did for this podcast, and we sort of turn into a slightly posher, more formal version of ourselves. So, in person, we might say, hi, how are you? But on email is I trust this email finds you well, or here's the report, here with, please find attached the information report. And we get quite stuffy and stiff. So, I think personality trumps being precise. So, it's a delicate balance. More than anything, we want a connection.
“Personality trumps being precise. But it's a delicate balance. More than anything, we want a connection. So, let's not be too stiff or too formal. Writing like we speak, in general, is a really good piece of advice.” – Kim Arnold · [17:40]
Kim Arnold:
So, let's not be too stiff, too formal, writing like we speak in general is a really good piece of advice. It stops us using words like utilise and leverage that just a really clunky and businessy and ugh, we'd never say them. So, it's a balance, I would say. We don't want to be too prim and proper, but we also need to be careful that we don't ramble.
The Psychology of Using GIFs and Memes in Your Sales Emails · [18:25]
Will Barron:
Sure. Okay. Is the line here, then, for being more personable in emails, not sending GIFs of cats, having a party or something stupid that kind of emphasises the point that we are selling whatever, party product or whatever it is, is it safe to say that if we're selling in the B2B environment, not that's not appropriate, but it's probably not going to enhance your chances of getting an executive, a CFO on the phone?
Kim Arnold:
I would agree. Yes. Then, more than anything, it feels generic, unless if it was something that was really targeted to the specific person that you were writing to, really, really relevant to them, you know they had a really great sense of humour, you could directly relate it to something that you'd heard them say at a conference, for example, maybe, then, it might be acceptable, but GIFs tend to be quite polarising. And most people don't like them, most people see them as a gimmick.
Kim Arnold:
It's the same with very clickbaity subject lines, as we started talking about in the beginning. Points of connection are one thing, but if we get an email from a stranger with a very clickbaity headline, then, a subject line like, Kim, you won't believe this, and then, you open it and it's that crushing disappointment. It's just a sales people… You know, sales email from someone you never met. No, we actually want to keep the energy levels up. We want to intrigue people, but not disappoint them. You know, there's no point with this sort of bait and switch.
Kim Arnold:
A subject line has got to hold attention, has got to get your attention, and the email's got to hold the attention. So, we can't be too gimmicky. Humour, on the other hand, in general, I think can be used to really good effect, particularly in follow up emails.
Will Barron:
I've got a… Hopefully… You might enjoy this as well, kim, a good example of humour and a GIF is the only GIF that's ever been said to me that warranted a call. It was on a podcast I did years and years and years ago, different studio, different set. Someone had clipped this point in the podcast where I pretended I was just joking with the guest, but I pretended to walk out. I just stood up, walked off, my headphones were attached to the table and all the cable, so that got all dragged off. And it was just a funny moment… Like a funny throwaway moment in a podcast episode.
Will Barron:
It was, obviously, a listener of the show who remembered that, they clipped that clip as a GIF, put it at the end of an email that they sent me, and I can't remember the call to action, but it was something along the lines of, when we get on the call, this is the response that you're going to have. You're just going to walk to my office and buy the product. It was something along those lines. It actually made me laugh. It was super appropriate in that…
Will Barron:
I don't want to name the brand because I think I actually went with a different brand. It was a transcription company. I think they were trying to get me to pay for transcripts for all the podcast episodes, and they didn't win the business, but they got on a few calls with me on the back of it. So, it was a super appropriate and linked with the podcast as well. So, I really enjoyed that, and I thought that was funny as well.
Ways to Integrate Humour in Your Sales Emails · [21:40]
Will Barron:
But how do we know when… scenes as humour is subjective in general, you are going to have a different sense of humour, Kim, to what I have. I'm going to say something that you're going to go that's just stupid, that's not even funny. And perhaps vice versa. How do we implement this over email? And there's even less social cues and more chances of it to blow up in our faces. Is that just a risk that comes with this, and is that risk worth it?
Kim Arnold:
I would recommend using humour when you have some kind of established relationship with someone already. So, humour works really well in follow up emails. For example, if you sent a proposal over, and you get nothing, and you send a chaser email, you get nothing. So, what do you do now? And sometimes, using humour in those instances works brilliantly, because it removes all of the guilt. Because generally, that person, they either got the… A few things might happen. They've got your proposal and they haven't read it. They've got the proposal, they've read it, but they still need to get opinion from other people. They got your proposal. They think it's a little rubbish, and they're feeling awkward about getting back to you.
Kim Arnold:
You know, so it's probably one of those things, or they might have an answer for you, but they've been too busy and you're not a priority. And so, what we tend to do is send emails, a follow-up email saying, “Have you had a chance to look at the proposal yet? If we haven't been a good salesperson already, got that follow up meeting in the diary, of course. But we send these sort of chases and we are just making that person go, oh gosh, yeah, I haven't done it. I haven't done it. I need to do that. Or add it to my list, add it to my list.
Kim Arnold:
But humour can be really great. I know someone who sent some great emails entitled, “Did you slip and fall in the shower?” You know, are you… She referenced a… Because this chat was older, a episode from, I think it was Dallas, these sort of '80s American soap opera where one of the characters emerged from the shower having had amnesia. So she said, “You like Bobby Ewing from Dallas? Have you had an amnesia episode and forgotten all about me?” And that worked a treat for her because it was her personality as well.
Kim Arnold:
So, I think we need to think about who it is that we're speaking to. You know, if they got a sense of humour, if they're super buttoned up and formal, then, it's probably not the best approach. But if you can have a laugh with them, you've had that relationship, and if it's your personality as well, if you like the joke, if they associate you with being a fun person, then, let them feel that, you know, “Did you get buried under a pile of invoices?” You know, so many different things that you can just have a joke with, because it removes the guilt.
Kim Arnold:
And generally, you'll get quite a funny response. Even if it's not the one that you want, or you're hoping for, sometimes, it will, at least, get a “I'm so sorry. I haven't got back to you.”
Will Barron:
We don't need to dive into this in too much detail, because this could be a topic, a show in its own right. But I found there's a element of cultural difference here of I find that people in the UK are way more accepting of a bit of dry humour, especially if I'm doing outbound sales, selling our train product to the enterprise, a lot of people I reach out to even know who I am because the team listens to the show, or they will Google me or click a link in the email signature. And so, they'll have a rough idea who I am, how we do things, before they reply to emails.
Will Barron:
And I find these follow up emails I get to send to these individuals… I hope this word translates across the Atlantic and elsewhere in Europe and that, but I can use a little bit more banter than what I would perhaps do with an American audience or European audience. So, I guess some of this is knowing the person the best you can, having a good hypothesis on the person you're out reaching to, because if I was selling to the CFO of a bank, I probably would not be trying to have banter with them in that engagement.
Metrics to Look Out For When Gauging the Success of Your Sales Emails · [25:50]
Will Barron:
And that leads me to… I've got two things I want to kind of wrap up the show with, Kim first off, let's say the audience, they go and experiment with this, Sam, the salesperson sends a bunch of emails. He's tracking open rates. He's tracking click through rates. He's tracking calls, booked on his emails and all this, obviously, gets a little bit more complicated when it's not just one email, but perhaps, it's a cadence of else, because maybe nobody replies to the first one. But by email three, you've given them some insights, or you've shared content, or you've now ground them down, warmed them down with your personality and humour that they're willing to give you a go.
Will Barron:
So, with that all said, and I understand, down to this question is it depends and it's complicated. But how do we know if the emails that we're writing are successful? Because we want to test this, right? We want to progress. We want to implement what we talked about in today's show. How do we know if the emails that we send yesterday are better or worse than the ones that we're going to send today?
Kim Arnold:
So, yes, as you say, there's not as simple answer as that, but I think it's where you start to have a conversation with the recipient. So, this isn't about necessarily just getting that meeting. It's the one where you might trade emails. They might come back to you. They might say, “Oh, that's really interesting. I want more,” it's the engagement that we need to track, as well as the meetings. Because quite often, we can be quite binary, you know, did that email get a meeting? Yes or no?
Kim Arnold:
Well, sometimes, sales cycles can take weeks, months, years even. Some of the best clients that I've had, that my clients have had, they can sit on your email list, of marketing email list for two or three years before they're ready to buy. And sometimes, it's the same, you know, you have a relationship with the salesperson. You're not ready to buy now, but they're giving you that time of day to stay in touch.
Kim Arnold:
It's obviously about, you need to look at what it is that you want whether it's booking in demos or meetings or what that sort of end goal is. But it is also about how many conversations are you having, where is that taking you to, where are the introductions, who do those people have in their networks as well. It is about treating email very much as a conversation, not as a monologue. This isn't about warfare. We're not firing out these emails. I'm really opposed to the sort of aggressive language of sales, because I think it sets us up really wrongly, targeting, attacking, firing out. All of these things get us off on the wrong foot.
Kim Arnold:
This is about engagement. This is about conversations. This is about a sense of connection with people. And if we get all of those things right, we don't even have to sell, do we? We lay all the great groundwork, and then, it all becomes easier after that.
Will Barron:
Yep. And I think to emphasise that point, Kim, the opposite of what you just described of leaning into engagement and leaning into conversations is what a lot of sales people are doing over the past five years where, essentially marketing tools have become sales tools where you can customise a name, a paragraph, a company, and send an email to a list of 10,000 people, and you burn a lot of the prospects in your industry, depending on what you're selling, who you're selling it to.
Will Barron:
I might not be too bad in this instance selling sales training to directors and VPs of sales, because there's, obviously, hundreds, or at least, tens of thousands, if not, hundreds of thousands of them in kind of the English be world. But if I'm back in medical devices and I'm selling camera systems to urologists, gynaecologist, general surgeons, clinical surgeons in Yorkshire, there's like 15, and they all speak, and if they all get the same crappy email from me demanding a call because we've got a new product that I need to shove down their throats, they're just going to all ignore me, and immediately going to be, via NHS hospital email filters, three or four of them mark me a spam.
Will Barron:
And I'm not even getting into their inbox in the first instance. That affects then the company's domain, and we can go on and on down that kind of root to that, was kind of marketing, but now, has become more and more sales, as again, these tools trickle down to us trigger happy sales people on the back end of it.
Should Salespeople Always Be Sending Out Personalized Emails? · [30:20]
Will Barron:
So, if you've got engagement at one end, measuring that, you've got just spam in the marketplace at the other. And I guess spraying and praying. Is there a middle around, Kim, or should we always, always be leaning to that idea of personalised emails to the right people at the right time with a product that we think can help them solve a… I'm answering my own question as I say this, I know I am. But is that the… for a B2B salesperson who's doing, say, deal sizes of 10, 50, a hundred thousand dollars plus, is that the only emails that they should be sending at this point?
“In sales, you’re trying to establish a relationship and you can't do that with generic emails.” – Kim Arnold · [31:23]
Kim Arnold:
I think there is a… Marketing needs to be that one to many function. I think you need both, ideally. Sales should be super personalised… You know, with these big deal sizes, it's worth it. It's worth putting that bit of extra effort into personalised things. And then, marketing can provide the sort of, you know, the newsletter or the updates, all of those things, but you're to establish a relationship and you can't do that with generic emails.
Kim Arnold:
I remember when I used to work in house, I was a global head of comms for a fintech business. And there was one vendor who used to write to me once a month, and his hook was that he would… It was a bit insulting to me actually, but that he would take me out for a certain type of food. And this has clearly worked for him. So, in the winter… In December it would be, “Hey Kim, are you free for a coffee and some mince pies?” And then, around pancake day, it would be, “Hey Kim, are you free for a coffee and a pancake?” And literally, every month… And it became a running joke in my department, what is this guy going to serve up next? It's donuts, it's this, it's Easter hot cross buns, all this kind of stuff.
Kim Arnold:
And as you say, you can burn through lists. You can burn through goodwill so easily. Most of our prospect lists are really not that large, and we think that we are saving time and saving effort by doing the spray and pray, and we're just chucking it all at the wall and seeing what sticks. But we're not, we're wasting huge amounts of time.
Kim Arnold:
One brilliantly thought out, personalised, clever email can make all the difference, and can be worth every single minutes of that two hours that you spent crafting it. So yes, less is more.
Will Barron:
Did that person win any business from you?
Kim Arnold:
No. But I took the donuts.
Will Barron:
Well, because the reason I asked that is, this is where metrics can be deceiving, right? Of you probably opened every one of those emails, that person's getting a ping on the dashboard.
Kim Arnold:
Yes.
“Just because a prospect is opening an email doesn't necessarily mean that they care about what you're saying.” – Will Barron · [33:45]
Will Barron:
Every time it gets opened, it's like Kim's loving these emails. These are super effective. Send more of these out. He's getting this whole team to double down on these food-based emails, as we record it, it's pancake day to day, so I'm sure that would've been the… It's probably top of mind for you. I'm having pancakes after this, Kim. So, I'll be appreciating any pancake emails that come my way. That's what I wanted to wrap the show on, Kim. I think that's really valuable of just because one's opening an email doesn't necessarily mean that they care about what you're saying.
Will Barron:
And then, very quickly, that email ends up in spam and you go from hero to zero in two seconds. Which is why I love the piece on engagement, conversations. And obviously, we've got to qualify our prospects as well, right? Because it might be the right product, it might be the right company, it might not be the right time. In which case, you can send an email follow up six months from now when everything falls into place, and you're more likely to win the deal than if you hammer that individual over the next six months with weekly, daily, hourly spammy emails, texts and calls, and then, you've lost the deal before the opportunity for it has even arrived.
Parting Thoughts · [34:23]
Will Barron:
So with that, Kim, tell us about the book, tell us more where we can find out about you, and then, anything else you want to share with the audience as well.
Kim Arnold:
Thank you so much. So, my book is Email Attraction. You can find it on Amazon. So, it's got all of my tips around subject lines, how to structure your emails, how to write really great follow up emails. And it's not just for sales, it's for all people who write business emails. So, you can apply it to all sorts of different emails that you write.
Kim Arnold:
I also run email engagement, which is a in-company programme that will allow you to train all of your staff whether sales people, marketing, HR, all across the board, how to write emails that engage and inspire and get people to jump into action. So, that's an in-company programme as well that I roll out with organisations too.
Kim Arnold:
You can find me at kimarnold.co.uk with all the information, and you can email me at kim@kimarnold.co.uk if you need any of my help on writing engaging emails.
Will Barron:
Amazing stuff. I'll link to all that in the show in the episode over at salesman.org. And with that, Kim, I want to thank you for your time, your expertise on this. I'll just plug this, right? It's actually difficult to have questions just now because we're so aligned of everything that we're saying, right? And everything that we teach aligns with what you teach. I don't want to rehash things that we've covered in the past.
Will Barron:
So, you did a great job with some the, I guess, curve ball questions I've thrown at you. So with that, Kim, it shows that you're an expert. It truly does. I appreciate you. I appreciate your time and energy, and appreciate you coming on the Salesman Podcast.
Kim Arnold:
Thank you so much. It's been great. I really enjoyed it. (music)
How To Run A Discovery Call Or Strategy Session
Mar 24, 2022
So many sales reps today underutilize the power of the well-run discovery call. With the right discovery call framework, you can qualify your leads, gather invaluable intel, and position yourself as a trustworthy authority—all in a single phone call.
Today I’m showing you how to structure your discovery calls so you can reap all these benefits and more. Trust me, you won’t want to miss this proven 8-step framework. Because it’s going to save you tons of time and make your sales job infinitely easier.
The Perfect Discovery Call
How many times have you spent hours, days, or even weeks of hard work with a potential buyer, only to find out they were never a fit for your product in the first place?
Don’t worry, you aren’t alone.
As much as 67% of lost sales are the result of sales reps not properly qualifying their leads. And more than a third of reps just like you say qualifying and prospecting were the biggest challenges of their roles.
In fact, I brought up this problem in particular in a recent interview.
“If you are sick of being rejected, if you're sick of people ghosting you, if you're sick of people not replying to your messages, improve your qualification at the top of the sales process, and you'll eliminate a lot of that at the far end of it.” Will Barron, SS #019
Qualification matters. When you do it right, you’re saving yourself tons of headaches, hassles, and lost time down the road.
And the discovery call is without a doubt the best opportunity to qualify leads.
Over the years, I’ve developed an 8-point framework for running strategic discovery calls with my potential clients. And that’s exactly what I’m sharing with you today.
Plus, I’m covering very specific questions along the way that you should ask prospects that cover each issue without scaring them off.
Ready to go? Let’s get into it.
To get the most value out of your discovery call as possible, you’re going to qualify potential leads according to eight issues throughout the meeting. The first issue is…
1) Are They In Pain?
Are they in pain?
Is their issue actually a problem? And most importantly, is the buyer in “pain” because of that problem? The buyers you want to work with are feeling the hurt from their problem. And as a result, they’re going to be highly motivated to find the right solution, which is exactly what you want.
Questions you can ask that get to the heart of this issue include…
“You booked this call with me today, what led to getting this call booked in?”
And…
“What’s stopping you from solving this issue yourself?”
2) What Is Their Timeline?
Not all problem and solution timelines are going to line up. One of your primary concerns when qualifying prospects is what their timeline is for when they need their problem solved.
Are they thinking today? This quarter? Or in the next few years?
The right answer for your industry will depend entirely on your unique business and solution. But in general, you should only be working with buyers that are interested in solving the problem sooner rather than later.
To determine their timeline, ask a question like…
“When do you want to solve this pain?” Straightforward, right? This question doesn’t mince words. And as a result, the answer gives you a clear, no-bullshit timeline that the buyer is hoping to solve their problem.
3) Can I Fix This Problem?
Time for an honesty check ladies and gentlemen.
There’s no perfect product or service for everyone. And saying otherwise is just playing into the public’s idea of sales reps being con men.
Instead, it’s your job to think of yourself as someone who offers value. So don’t waste time with buyers that’ll be dissatisfied with what your product can offer.
Two questions in particular to ask yourself, not the buyer, are…
“Do I have the solution for this buyer’s problem?”
Be honest here. Does your solution actually solve the buyer’s problem? Or is it more of a bandaid?
Also…
“Do they really need this solution?”
Is there a better solution they can implement on their own? Is yours really necessary? If not and the sale goes through, the buyer will likely resent you once they find out they could have easily solved the problem themselves. And that means negative reviews, zero loyalty, and no earned referrals.
4) Is The Solution Worth The Trouble?
There are downsides to any new solution. Buyers need to change vendors, hire new staff, train on novel systems, or fight for a change to the budget.
The question is, is the value your solution provides worth that discomfort?
How much will they have to change to accommodate it? And when all is said and done, will they look back on the investment as a good purchase or one that ate up too many resources?
Going through this calculation upfront is a must during the qualification of sales leads.
Questions to ask here include…
“How would things be different if we solved this for you?”
“What is your motivation to make this happen?”
“If we took your business from $X to $Y, how would that change things?”
5) Do They Accept Your Process?
Be sure your buyer is willing to adapt to your process before working with you. Check to see if they’re willing to stop working with current vendors, put in the necessary time for training, and whatever other “musts” need to be done to get maximum value from your solution.
Buyers who won’t adapt to your processes (or who require too much work on your end) should be turned away.
A clear question to ask here is…
“When your organization has done similar projects in the past, what paperwork process needed to happen?”
This question gives you a clearer idea of what lies ahead should the buyer be a reasonable fit. How much work will they have to put in to overhaul their system? How much work will you have to put into training and getting their team up to speed?
6) Can They Afford It?
Can they even afford your solution? Now, you want to be careful with this one because people get a bit weird about money. So don’t jump right into finances. Instead, lead up to budgetary questions. Handle the subject professionally and use direct communication. Think of it as just another aspect of the qualification process.
Questions to ask here include…
“How are projects like this funded?”
“Is a project like this in this year’s budget?”
“What financial scope do you have to solve this issue?”
7) Who Is The Champion Here?
Who is the champion here? The final decision maker?
More often than not, your buyer’s decision is going to be influenced by other individuals in the business. It could be heads of other departments, higher-ups in the C-suite, or even influential team members below them.
That’s why it’s important to figure out who these other individuals (or “champions”) are before you decide the buyer’s a fit.
Doing so clues you into whether your prospect is the final decision maker and if there’s someone else you should be talking to instead.
An important question to ask here is…
“Who is the person that people look up to within your department on projects like this?”
This subtler approach is bound to help you uncover any hidden decision-makers that may influence the passing of the deal.
8) Will They Commit?
The last thing you want is for a high-quality lead to run off after you’ve put in all the work to qualify them.
That’s why it’s up to you to get your buyer’s verbal commitment on the call. Otherwise, they’re liable to walk away after days or even weeks of your hard work.
So when you’ve determined that a buyer is a solid lead, don’t hang up the phone before asking this discovery call question.
“You’re a good fit to work with us. If we can solve X, will you commit to Y?”
This time-tested formula has it all—validation, a hint of flattery, results anchoring. By asking this question, you’re tying your solution to a specific result. And equally importantly, you’re influencing the buyer to commit to that solution, provided you can achieve the results you promise.
If the buyer looks like a good fit based on all these issues, the only thing left to do now is nail down the specifics and sign the papers.
Summary
That about wraps this framework up! Discovery calls are an invaluable tool for qualifying prospects, gathering more intel, and positioning yourself as an indisputable authority. All it takes is assessing prospects on these eight issues…
Are They In Pain?
What Is Their Timeline?
Can I Fix This Problem?
Is The Solution Worth The Trouble?
Do They Accept Your Process?
Can They Afford It?
Who Is The Champion Here?
Will They Commit?
If you’ve evaluated potential buyers on each of these issues during your discovery call, you’ll waste less time with prospects, have more time to spend closing good deals, and be well on your way to earning more with less stress.
The Most Dangerous Threat To Your Sales Success | Salesman Podcast
Mar 23, 2022
Len Herstein is a Keynote Speaker, Author, Marketing Strategist and a Reserve Sheriff's Deputy. In this episode of The Salesman Podcast, Len taps into his brand marketing and law enforcement experience to reveal the most dangerous threat to your sales success. He also shares strategies to help you achieve, cherish, and protect success in both life and business
You'll learn:
Sponsored by:
Free SalesCode assessment
Learn your strengths and weaknesses in an instant. Taken by over 10,000+ of your competitors. Don't get left behind.
Take the free assessment
Featured on this episode:
Host - Will Barron
Founder of Salesman.org
Guest -
Business Strategy Expert
Hi, my name is Will, and welcome to today's episode of the Salesman Podcast. On today's episode, we're looking at the most dangerous threat to your sales success, and today's guest is Len Herstein. Len's 30 plus years in business, brand marketing and law enforcement led to his book, Be Vigilant!, where he provides a roadmap for individuals to stop complacency, improve performance, and safeguard the success that they've worked so hard to achieve. We want to touch on all this in today's episode. And with that, Len, welcome to the show.
Len Herstein:
Thanks, Will. Good to be here. Thanks for having me.
The Most Dangerous Threat to Highly Successful Salespeople · [00:50]
Will Barron:
You are more than welcome, sir. We were just talking football before we clicked record. Don't say who you support, mate, because you might get a load of hate after this episode, and maybe a few polite emails on the back of that as well, but I appreciate you, mate. So with that said, I know the answer to this question because we've done a bit of prep for the interview, but the audience probably don't, and I'm in so much agreement with you here. I think this is a really exciting topic. With that said, Len, what is the most dangerous threat, not just to salespeople, but to perhaps highly successful salespeople?
“Success is not the end goal, keeping it is.” – Len Herstein · [01:38]
Len Herstein:
Yeah. The thing that I think is one of the most dangerous threats is complacency, is the idea that as we get more successful, we develop an overconfidence, a self-satisfaction, even potentially a smugness that makes us unaware of potential threats. And when we become unaware of potential threats, when we fail to see the warning signs, when we fail to see the things that we're doing that make us vulnerable, that is when our success becomes at risk. What I always tell people is success is not the end goal, keeping it is.
Understanding the Risk of Complacency in Sales · [01:43]
Will Barron:
And is this something that all successful fo people fall into, or is this a trap that can be averted? Do we have to learn this lesson via the school of hard knocks or is keynote speaking, the events that you do, reading the book, and the coaching that you do, is that capable of getting us through this?
Len Herstein:
Yeah, so that's exactly… The book is set up to give a us strategies that we can employ today that will help us identify complacency and fight it. And so one of the things, when we talk about complacency, that people get confused about is kind of what complacency is, first of all. And I think a lot of people would equate it with laziness. And really complacency is not laziness, it's what I talked about, is that unawareness of threats because of our overconfidence.
Len Herstein:
And then the next step is people start worrying well, what's the opposite of complacency, isn't it like paranoia? Because that doesn't sound fun. I don't want to be paranoid. But the actual answer is that the opposite and the antidote to complacency is vigilance. And the difference is that paranoia is based in fear and vigilance is based in awareness. And so this is what the book is. And when I go talk to people and when I consult with people, it's all about helping them develop the strategies that enable them to become more aware, to become more intentional, to become more in a moment so that they don't get caught by surprise due to their complacency.
Complacency and Why It’s a Threat to All Types of Salespeople · [03:14]
Will Barron:
Is this just for, obviously our audience are mainly salespeople, there's entrepreneurs, marketers [inaudible 00:03:14] of people listen to the show, but we'll focus on the B2B salesperson. Is this only for successful salespeople or can salespeople who are, if you're consuming this podcast and this content you're probably, even if you, even just be blunt, even if you suck, you're probably on the path to success at some point, right? Because the average salesperson who's just never going to do anything in their career is not going to tune into content like this, so we can make that assumption. But is this just, is complacency just something that successful people fall into, or is it like an inverse of this where you can suck at sales and be complacent in how much you suck and you're just managing to hold on, does the same process that we're going to talk about still apply to those individuals?
Len Herstein:
Yeah. So complacency applies to everybody. What I do say though, is that you're less likely to find complacency in a bootstrapping startup that's maxing out their credit cards and working out of their parents' garage than you are with someone who's experienced success. But success is a sliding scale. I mean, success is not just this one pinnacle. We have successes along the way. And as we build those successes, whatever we enjoy that success in, we become vulnerable to complacency. This is applicable to everybody, no matter where they are in their game, no matter where they are in their business, no matter where they are in their life, because it also applies to your personal life, as much as your professional life. Complacency kills businesses, it kills brands, it kills teams, it kills relationships, both professional and personal.
Tell-tale Signs You Might be Complacent · [04:50]
Will Barron:
So how do we know if we're in a position of being complacent and we need to up our levels of vigilance? We'll get practical about this as well of how we implement some of this. But how do we know if this is… Because some of this is self-reflection right of, I guess it's almost a paradox, because if you knew that you were being complacent, you would probably not be complacent. Right?
Len Herstein:
Right.
Will Barron:
So how do we, other than someone stumbling into a show like this, how do we kind of implement this as perhaps a practise that we've got to check in with ourselves over time?
“The first question is, do you feel successful in any way, shape or form with your relationships, business, sales teams, with whatever you’re doing? And if the answer is yes, then more than likely you should get a little bit more introspective and understand that there's probably complacency somewhere.” – Len Herstein · [06:05]
Len Herstein:
Yeah. So there there's lots of warning signs, and in the book we go through, each strategy is kind of built around something that you're not doing or potentially not doing. The reality is you need to take a step back and kind of first question is, have I experienced some success? Do I feel successful in some element of my life, whether it be at home or at work? And the reality is based on our human nature. If you have experience of some success, if you can say that you are successful in some way, shape or form, it is most likely a good assumption that you have complacency somewhere because it is a natural state of being for us. We want to feel comfortable. We don't want to be questioning things all the time. So the first question is, do I feel successful in any way, shape or form with my relationships, with my business, with my sales teams, with whatever I'm doing? And if the answer is yes, then more than likely you should get a little bit more introspective and understand that there's probably complacency somewhere.
Len Herstein:
But some red flags that you can definitely look for right away. Number one is who do you think your competition is? So if you have settled in on, here's my one or two major competitors, everything I do all my plan, I'm going to talk about this from a sales perspective, all my planning, all my scenarios, all my pricing and my offerings and my features and my benefits are all built around my competition with these one or two major competitors that I know really well. That is a sign that perhaps you're losing sight of what else is out there. I call that the road runner effect. People of a certain age are familiar with the Road Runner cartoon with the road runner and Wiley Coyote. And Wiley coyote is always trying to get the road runner and is a 100 percent focused on that road runner.
“If you're so focused on one or two or three competitors and you feel really confident there, that's a good sign that you might be complacent.” – Len Herstein · [07:48]
Len Herstein:
The reality is that all the dangers in all of the, and all of the downsides that come across Wiley Coyote are never due to the road runner. They're always due to something else that Wiley Coyote didn't see. And that's the problem that we fall into. We get into this thing where we get so comfortable. If we're Coke, our competition is Pepsi. If we're Microsoft, our competition is Apple. If we're a solar company, our competition is the other solar company down the street, and we lose sight of Tesla coming in and changing the game for solar, or Red Bull coming in and changing the game for soft drinks, or whatever it is. If you're so focused on one or two or three competitors and you feel really confident there, that's a good sign that you might be complacent. So that's number one.
Len Herstein:
A second one that's really easy to do is your to articulate your why. So this is something that gets back to kind of our purpose. This comes from my law enforcement background. All of this comes from my law enforcement background. These are things that I learned when I got into law enforcement that I was able to apply back to business and life. But this thing about being able to articulate your why gets to power and power dynamics. And a lot of times when we gain power, when we're successful, that allows us to be complacent because we're not getting pushback from people because we hold the power in relationship. And so if our why, if we're really being honest for ourselves as to what we're doing, is because we can or because we said so, those are really good signs that we're being complacent, because those whys should be rooted in our customers and our vendors and our partners and our employees. They shouldn't be because we can.
Will Barron:
Is there any value… Because as you were saying that, Len, I'm getting this, and maybe I've probably been there myself in the past, right, I'm getting this vision of, I'm just going to paint a picture, and so whether this is sexist or whatever, I don't know. But it's me as a masculine fellow, well, so a masculine fella riding around in my red BMW, seeing customers, knowing that I'm the one with the right product for them, they sell medical devices, they've got to buy it from me because they want to work with that brand and there's only always another competitor. No one else can really get in that space, obviously because medical devices costs so much to develop and there's so much lead time from product to it being implemented in the marketplace.
Will Barron:
So I'm this dude 23 year old dude, hair slicked back, driving around in his red BMW, seeing these surgeons, they have to buy from me. Overconfident to a point of I'm not faking it till I make it anymore, I'm now just coming across like a bit of a dick sometimes. And my why is because I want to buy a bigger, faster, more red stupid car. Right?
Len Herstein:
Right.
The Difference Between Complacency and Being Comfortable · [10:10]
Will Barron:
I feel like there'll be a bunch of the audience who, whether they acknowledge that or not, will be fitting into that kind of broad demographic of young salesperson making lots of money. How, other than some of them are driving around in a red BMW right now, listening to the show and they're going, oh crap, that's me, how else can they be introspective on this? And really, how can we hit them over the head in this episode, Len, and let them know that is you. Is there any other characteristics that we need to look out for?
Len Herstein:
Yeah. What you want to understand is why… So getting to this articulating the why, it gets to your purpose, and your purpose has to be something beyond just making money. You have to have a purpose in this world, whether it's… and you can define your world as big or as small as you want, but you have to really understand your purpose. And you have to understand the fact that when you hold power, the way that you wield that power has implications short term and long term. You might be in a position, like you're saying, you're selling this medical device. There's no other medical device out there, they have to buy from you. That is a position where you hold a lot of power. The way you treat people in that short term will affect what happens in the long term.
Len Herstein:
So you have to get this more macro view as to what's going on because the reality is that can work for a while, but eventually there's another solution that's going to come around. There's another… They're going to figure out a way, whether someone comes in to compete with you or your customers figure out a way to do without you, they're going to figure it out before long. And then all of a sudden you're going to turn and all of a sudden your customers are gone and you're going to be like, wow, they were unloyal. I can't believe they jumped. Well, the reality is that you sowed those seeds a long time ago.
“Ask yourself, are people working with me because they want to, are people buying from me because they want to, because I add value to their lives that they can't do without, or are they working with me because they have to? And if it's because they have to, and you’re taking advantage of that, that's going to come back and haunt you.” Len Herstein · [11:52]
Len Herstein:
So it really requires taking this kind of macro view in terms of what's going on. And really, really being honest with yourself as to, are people working with me because they want to, are people buying for me because they want to, because I add value to their lives that they can't do without, or are they working with me because they have to? And if it's because they have to, and I'm taking advantage of that, that's going to come back and haunt you.
Will Barron:
Sure. Okay. So I think that's super clear. I really appreciate that, Len. So that being said, it's not going to be all the audience who are going to be… who are, I was going to say feeling, but you're not really feeling this, you're being it, you're proactively being complacent. Right? There's going to be a good chunk of the audience who are in that state though.
Len Herstein:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
How to Stop Being Complacent and Start Being Vigilant · [12:27]
Will Barron:
What's the next step for them? Is this something where they've got to sit down and is this an strategy? Is this an exercise in their mindsets? Is this finding the why? Is this strategic or is this kind of mindset based, the idea of being complacent?
Len Herstein:
Yes, it is. It is all the above. First and foremost is strategic. Right? And it's mindset based. It's really understanding this is, it's kind of like being having a substance abuse problem, right? I mean, the first thing you have to do is admit that you have a problem. And that's part of the problem with complacency. Like you said upfront, is that we don't understand that we have that problem because we're not thinking that way. If we were, we wouldn't be complacent. So number one is just building that awareness that this exists, complacency is always in the background and we have to constantly figure out ways to fight it. But what we can do is we can institutionalise it within our lives, within our business, within our home life so that this doesn't become a chore. All these strategies are based in building awareness so that we understand what's going on.
Len Herstein:
There's 10 things in the book, you can start with any which one of them, it doesn't matter. You can choose which ones make sense to you. One of the things that I think is the easiest thing that people can do right off the bat, and it's actually a really good signal that you're being complacent, is think about what you do after projects or missions or events are over. And one of the things that I talk about is the importance of debriefing. And you had talked about before this, that we're going to debrief afterwards. I love it. Because the thing that happens is most people, if you ask them if they do debriefs today, they would say yes, but the reality is they do the them when things go wrong and they do it mostly to find out who's to blame and how to figure out how do we not let this happen again.
Len Herstein:
And if you're being truly honest with yourself, when you're experiencing success with your customers, how often are you actually debriefing things, as opposed to like patting each other on the back and going out for drinks and celebrating successes, which is important, it's important to celebrate success. But when we don't question things because we've had success, that's when we become complacent. And so it's really important to start debriefing things, whether they go right or wrong. There's eight ways that I talk about in the book, in that chapter, as to how to do successful debriefs. One of them is do them regardless of the outcome of the event. So whether it's positive, negative, debrief. Talk about what went right. Talk about what went right by accident. Talk about where you might have had success only because your competition did worse than you or because you got lucky.
“Once you start resting on your laurels, once you start feeling comfortable in your success and stop questioning things, that's where you miss all those micro failures that turn into macro failures.” – Len Herstein · [15:36]
Len Herstein:
There are always ways… We were talking sports, there are people in sports, here in American football, we would talk about Peyton Manning or Tom Brady in terms of these are people who, regardless of the level of success they have, they're the first one in a room watching films the next day, trying to figure out where could we have done better. Right? Where do we… Because once you start resting on your laurels, once you start feeling comfortable in your success and stop questioning things, that's where you miss all those micro failures that turn into macro failures. So your question was where can we start? You can start with mindset, you can start with strategies, you can start with whatever you want to start with. The real step is becoming aware that this is an issue and making a decision that we're going to do things in our life, both professionally and personally, to help address it.
What’s Your Definition of Success and Do You Really Need to Pursue More of It? · [16:29]
Will Barron:
What if we are, we're a salesperson, so we're not an entrepreneur. We don't have the whole… we inadvertently have the company on our back, right? We're we are bringing in the [crosstalk 00:16:12] right. But we are not… our quota is based on sales activity as opposed to customer service or anything like that. And so let's say we've hit our quota the past three or four years in a row. We're having a decent year this year. Is pushing for a feeling of being comfortable or even just being a little bit complacent in the role because we know we've had success in the past, is that always unhealthy or do we always need to be striving for more and more revenue and bigger bonuses and more targets? Because I know this kind of, hopefully this is an interesting question of, is it unhealthy to always be pushing for more, and is a little bit of complacency okay in certain situations or is complacency like, is it binary, is it always a bad idea?
“Everybody's definition of success is different, and you don't always have to be striving for more, but it's important to understand what success is to you so that you can protect it once you gain it.” – Len Herstein · [17:44]
Len Herstein:
Yeah. So what I don't want to do is I don't want to convey the idea that it's not okay to feel comfortable. That's not what this is about. So it's not about… Complacency, fighting complacency doesn't mean that we always have to be uncomfortable. And the other key point is that success is how we define it. Some people's success is like, I need to be CEO of the company or I need to be a billionaire or I need to be whatever. Other people's success is, I want to have a good paycheck and I want to enjoy my family and I want to see my kids grow up and go to school functions and all that stuff. So everybody's definition of success is different, and you don't always have to be striving for more, but it's important to understand what success is to you so that you can protect it once you gain it. Right?
Len Herstein:
And so that's a problem. Maybe success for you is earning enough money so that you can go to the pub with your mates and take care of your family. And that's totally cool, there's nothing wrong with that. But the reality is that once you get too comfortable in that, you might take… maybe success for you is your relationships, but if you start taking those relationships for granted, if you stop paying attention to the health of those relationships, if you stop asking questions of your spouse or your partner or whatever, to stay in the moment to understand what's going on, both good and bad, you run the risk of jeopardising that success that you've set up for yourself. So it's all about different levels. It's all about self-awareness. It's all about intentionality and understanding where you are. And it could be any level, whatever level you're at, understanding what success is to you and how do I protect it.
Will Barron:
Len, that is so smart, mate. I really appreciate that answer because I don't think sales people, and I never did this, stop to think about what they actually want. Now, obviously we're in a role, we've got to hit a quota or at least give, in a decent company, at least give a real good account of yourself and a good effort to get close to it. You're not going to get sacked if you hit quota for three years and then you miss it, but you're close to the next, right? Because obviously the market changes, the product changes, the customer changes. We go through a global pandemic. Who knows what else is going on in the world, right?
Len Herstein:
Yeah.
Will Barron:
So I think that's fair enough to say, but there's so… the people I speak with and coach with our training programme, there's so few salespeople who come into the programme who know what they actually want other than this robotic must hit quota. I think what you just said is really valuable to them.
How to Protect Your Success in This Highly Competitive Sales Environment · [19:40]
Will Barron:
And then it leads onto this idea, which I really want to double down on, this idea of protecting your success. Because sales is a zero sum game, right? There's someone else that out there trying to poach your customers, there's only… If there's a deal going to happen, that it's likely most industries, they're only going to buy one product or service at that moment in time, and maybe you've got a chance later on, but again, someone else is out trying to eat your lunch, aren't they? So how do we, say that we're having success, how do we go about complacency and avoiding it from the perspective of there's someone out there? It's not like other spaces where you might be your own downfall. There's someone proactively trying to take your customers from you. How do we mitigate those kind of risks?
Len Herstein:
Yeah. So, it's a great point. And it all comes together, and this is also in everything that I wrote about in this book. Real briefly, I spent 25 years in business before I ever got involved in law enforcement. I decided I wanted to become a volunteer. I went through a full academy and field training. I became a reserve peace officer, Sheriff's deputy, where I do everything a Sheriff's deputy does, but I do it for free. And I did it because I wanted to give back. But I started learning things that surprised me, that I was able to bring back to business and to life. And that's where this book came from. Be Vigilant. It's all based in things that I learned and this idea that complacency kills.
Len Herstein:
One of the things that is directly translatable from that is this idea that as we become complacent, and we become more vulnerable, we send signals out to our competition. People are watching. Right? You were talking about it. People are always looking to eat our lunch, right, and take our lunch from us. And the reality is, one of the things that we learn in the academy is looking buttoned up, right, keeping your shoes shined, keeping your uniform looking good, all those things. And that's not because of pomp and circumstance or anything like that. The reality is that there's data out there that says that criminals are out there looking and they will react to you based on the image that you present to them. And if you look vulnerable, they will try to exploit that vulnerability. But if you look buttoned up, they are likely to fight, they're less likely to run, they're less likely to do all the things that get people hurt or get me hurt or whatever it is.
“When you have people out there that are looking to take business from you, when they look at you, do they see easy pickings or do they see someone who's buttoned up and is prepared to protect what they have? If they see that you are prepared to protect what you have, they're more likely to go try and take someone else's lunch.” – Len Herstein · [21:55]
Len Herstein:
It's the same thing in business. When you have people out there that are looking to take, when they look at you, do they see easy pickings or do they see someone who's buttoned up and is prepared to protect what they have? And if they see that you are prepared to protect what you have, they're more likely to go try and take someone else's lunch. So the first thing is making sure that as you build that awareness, as you start fighting that complacency, as you build defences against those vulnerabilities, you will automatically invite less competition because you are unattractive as a competitor.
Len Herstein:
There are many more people, I don't know what it's like in the UK, but here we have a lot of what we call vehicle trespassers, people breaking into people's cars. It used to be that this was a real complicated thing or they would try and jimmy locks or break windows. Now they just walk down the street and try door handles until they find one that's open because there's enough people that leave their doors open that the thieves don't have to work that hard. And you know what? If you're a salesperson, be the one who locks your door and let them move on to the next one who is letting themselves become more vulnerable.
Will Barron:
So I guess that practically two things come to mind. One, being known as an expert in your industry. Even if, for me, medical devices, you get attack… I'm not becoming an expert in all keyhole or endoscopic surgery, but perhaps I'm becoming an expert in my specific product, in a specific place, whether that is, hopefully, speaking events, industry conferences, being a go-to person to answer questions on your product, but other people's products in the space itself. That seems like the medium to long term goal with some of this. Because if I was competing… If I was competing for a sales training contract against me now, I'd be slightly panicked because our programme is established, but it's so different from everyone else out there that if someone was to Google me and what we were up to, I would probably go for and go and attack one of these kind of traditionally held sales training accounts instead of what we do. So maybe that's an example.
Len Herstein:
Absolutely.
Will Barron:
Just because we are differentiated and we're so entrenched. So that's, I'm an expert and public in the space, I guess was the point. So becoming known as an expert in your space is a medium to long term goal. But it seems like a short term goal then is just if you can physically be in the accounts regularly. Like when I was in medical device sales, I'd always pop into, Bradford is a local hospital to us here, every Friday I'd be in there from like two o'clock till five o'clock, I would just be sat in the… there's a bunch of… some of the world's top colorectal surgeons work at one particular theatre, I'd just be sat in the staff room with the surgeons, just chilling, hanging, doing emails, just physically be there. And I've saw competitors come to the door, and a lot of times it was just so awkward that I was there, that the surgeons would tell them to go away, come back another time. Right?
Len Herstein:
Yeah.
The Benefits of Having Regular, Insightful Debriefs with Your Buyers · [24:48]
Will Barron:
So being physically in an account is value, but then even less so, or even easier than that, what you mentioned earlier on doing debriefs, maybe we check in with our customers every quarter. We see if there's any issues ahead of time and we try and deal with them and stay in touch so that when a competitor rings up one of our accounts and they go, hey, well, when's the last time you spoke to will with sales trading over at whatever company, the buyer goes, well, last week he was doing some more training and he was doing this or doing that. Again, that's got to put competitors off, right?
Len Herstein:
Yeah, no. That's so smart. That's exactly what happens. And that's one of the biggest vulnerabilities for salespeople, is because we're always trying to get new business. Right? And so as we get more successful and we start putting more attention towards new business, who suffers? Potentially our existing business. And just like you said, what's the first thing, if you're trying to steal someone's business from them, especially in your industry or medical sales, whatever sales you're doing, if you're trying to steal someone's business and you get a meeting with that customer, the first thing you're going to ask them is, hey, how much attention are you getting from your current sales person? How much are they really investing themselves in your success? How much of a partner are they?
“The more that you make your buyers feel like a true partner, the more that you make them understand that it's not just about a sale to you, it's about their success and making sure that they are successful, that's how you fight complacency.” – Len Herstein · [26:18]
Len Herstein:
And that's the question that you're going to ask, right? Because when people get successful, they start taking what they have for granted. They spend less time with their existing customers. The customers may not even understand it until someone in comes in and starts raising that thing, and then they're like, you know what? It has been a while since Will's come to visit me, he's starting to take me for granted. The more that you're there, the more that you make them feel like a true partner, the more that you make them understand that it's not just about a sale to you, it's about their success and making sure that they are successful, they're successful, you're successful and the sales will come, that's how you fight that complacency.
Fighting Complacency in Life and Personal Relationships · [26:44]
Will Barron:
For sure. Okay. We'll wrap up with this line. And I say that this might be a four hour conversation in it's own right. But how does this translate outside of business? Because it seems like, anecdotally, a lot of my friends, well, the few of my friends who have been in long term relationships and it's fell apart, it's because they were both complacent, didn't work on the relationship, didn't work on themselves, both got fat and disgusting and then hated each other, and then it fell apart violently, right?
Len Herstein:
Yeah.
Will Barron:
So it seems like relationships with spouses, partners, whatever it is, whoever it is, this applies to that as well. But how else does this idea of complacency relate to out of work activities, relationships, and even hobbies or whatever it is?
Len Herstein:
Yeah, it applies 100 percent outside or especially to our relationships, whether they're our friends or our spouses or our partners or our kids, we have a tendency to start taking that for granted. They're always there, they're there at the house. And so we we stop asking questions. We start focusing only on problems, right? We don't debrief things that go well, our conversations become always about pain points as opposed to successes. And so our relationship takes a hit because everything that we start associating with that other person is negative. The only time that we actually talk and have meaningful conversations is when stuff's going bad. Right?
Len Herstein:
We might lose sight of the threats. One of the things I talk about in the book is this idea of threat awareness, of understanding where those threats can come from. How in tune are you with your children's lives in terms of where those threats are coming from? Social media, bullying, substance abuse, whatever it is, are you just focused on the fact that they have good grades and they say hi to you in the morning, is that enough? Or are you really questioning what's going on in their lives so that you're remaining in touch with them? Because the more success they have, the more that they seem to be successful on the surface, the more you're likely to kind of pull back and say, hey, what's working is working. And that's where you start missing those kind of micro failures.
Len Herstein:
One of the things that happens in romantic relationships a lot of times is you have an erosion of trust. And this is something that happens in business, it happens in government, law enforcement, you have this erosion of trust. And so if you step back and you start seeing that in your relationship, you have lost the benefit of the doubt. This is something I'm talking about is when you lose that benefit of the doubt. When you are really… When you have a lot of trust in someone and something happens, the first place you might go to, if whatever happened was negative, is that person didn't mean it that way, that wasn't what they meant to do, they are good people at heart, they trust me, they value me.
Len Herstein:
When you lose that benefit of the doubt, everything, it could be like, hey, good morning. What'd you mean by that? What are you trying to say? Good morning, huh? When you start reacting that way, or when your people in your life start reacting, you've had that erosion of trust. That erosion of trust comes from neglect of that relationship, which is a sign of complacency.
Will Barron:
For sure. So now I'm really focused on with my misses at the moment is celebrating more wins. Because she's a doctor, she's having tremendous success in her career. Our business is growing. And it seems like it's, I don't do it instinctively. I will get on to the next milestone and the next milestone and keep on the way. And then you look back, we've been running sales into org in the [inaudible 00:30:09] academy now for like seven years. And I look back at all the milestones and I've not celebrated maybe like three out of the hundreds that we've been through of customer milestones and revenue milestones and product development milestones, all these kind of things, podcast download numbers and milestones. So this is when I'm consciously being aware of.
Practical Structure of an Effective Debrief · [30:34]
Will Barron:
But I've got one final question for you, Len, and that is, is there a structure? It seems like debriefing is incredibly important here, whether it's with your customer, whether it's with your partner, whether it's with your kids, scheduling that into, hey, we did something, debrief afterwards or even just quarterly debrief, whatever it is. It seems like we almost want to do like a SWOT analysis of strengths, weaknesses, opportunities, threats. Is there any, or do you recommend any structure to a debrief or any questions that we should ask within a debrief that can drive kind of tremendous value?
Len Herstein:
Yeah, absolutely. And so, in a professional setting, there's very specific things that I recommend people do as it relates to debrief. And like I said, there's eight in the book. There's there's do it regardless of outcome, positive or negative, make sure you leave titles and stature at the door so that everybody has a say, make sure that they're regularly scheduled so everybody knows they're going to happen so that they pay more attention. Like I said, there's eight things that you can do that will help structure those debriefs. The thing to be careful of at home is it's not fun to say we're going to schedule a debrief. It doesn't need… That's the terminology you don't have to use.
Len Herstein:
A debrief at home could be as simple as a family dinner that we always have. And when we sit down to a family dinner or family breakfast or a walk that we go along on the weekends, just to talk, just to catch up to just say, hey, I saw… Hey daughter. I have two daughters. I saw you got an A on that test, tell me about that. How'd that happen? What went right? Did you change your studying? Did you do something? What went right? Do you think maybe like there was things that went wrong that you could have done better?
Len Herstein:
These conversations, they can be scheduled without making them like… it's not like you have to create a conference room in the house and sit down and have a PowerPoint presentation. It could be whatever it is, just making sure that you have something built into your life. Hey, every morning I'm going to have breakfast with the family, or two times a week we're going to have whatever you can do. I mean, it's not always possible, but figuring in those touch points that are specifically built around talking about things that went right and not just the things that went wrong.
Parting thoughts · [33:23]
Will Barron:
For sure. The reason I asked you about the outside of work thing as well is just to emphasise the points that we tend to think of our business and sales relationships as one entity and then our friends and family as another, but if you doing a good job and you're adding a lot of value and you're supporting people and you're debriefing and you're improving consist consistently, a lot of it's very similar. If you're just a terrible person, you're probably a terrible person at home as well as a terrible person to your customers. Right? So I think a lot of this translates. And so I think that was important to bring it up. And we'll wrap up with that, Len. With that, mate, tell us a bit more about the book, where we can find it. And then tell us about the keynotes and the speeches and that that you're doing as well.
Len Herstein:
Yeah, absolutely. So the book is called Be Vigilant!: Strategies to Stop Complacency, Improve Performance and Safeguard Success. I've got green screen so you won't be able to see it, but it's available on Amazon or Barnes and Noble or Apple Books, wherever you buy your books or eBooks. You can get more information at Len Herstein, L-E-N H-E-R-S-T-E-I-N.com or bevigilantbook.com. Or you can just look me up on LinkedIn and I'm always happy to connect.
Len Herstein:
And one of the… You mentioned the speaking and the consulting. I mean, the whole reason I wrote this book is to help spread this message, looking to get in front of as many organisations or teams or associations as possible. We spend a lot of time in meetings and conferences and stuff, talking about the nitty gritty, the tactics to achieve success. We don't spend a lot of time talking about how to keep that success. And so that's kind of the role I'm looking to play these days, is to come in and work with teams and organisations or companies or associations to help them understand how do we protect that success we've worked so hard to achieved.
Will Barron:
Amazing stuff. I'll link to all that in the show notes to this episode over at salesman.org. And with that, Len, I appreciate your insights, mate. I appreciate you bringing this to us on the podcast. I say this straight up, I appreciate your ability to translate this from business to home as well. I think that's incredibly valuable for the audience. And with that one, thank you for joining us again on the Salesman Podcast.
Len Herstein:
Thanks, Will, I really appreciate it. I had a great time. Thanks.
Do you want to be rich someday? Of course you do. Who doesn’t?
But if you’re in sales, you’re in a particularly great position to grow your wealth—if you play your cards right, that is. More on that in a few minutes.
In this post, I’m revealing the 3 best habits of rich people. Habits that you can learn for yourself. And habits that will put you well on your way to true financial freedom.
Rich habits
One of the hardest pills to swallow about success is that it isn’t quick. Striking it rich betting on the newest cryptocurrency? Winning the lotto? These cases are rare. And the majority of the wealthy built their fortunes over time. Lots of time.
The difference between those who become rich and those who don’t is how they spend that time. Because in reality, that’s the only thing anyone has real control over.
Now, we’d like to think we’re in control of what we do each day. And think about it—don’t you feel that way? Like you’re in the driver’s seat?
But in fact, we’re actually slaves to one thing that rules us all… our habits.
Our habits control how we spend our days. They dictate our feelings. Our motivations. Our productivity. Do we work towards building a brighter future? Or do we put off tasks and give in to that warm call of the couch instead?
Over time, these daily accomplishments (controlled by our habits) build on each other to determine our future.
Indy 500 and Formula 1 Legend Derek Daly said it best when he told me, “You will not decide your future. You'll decide your habits. And your habits will then in turn, decide your future. Are your habits aligned with your own personal goals or stretch goals?”
But there’s a problem here. We tend to forget what we’ve done in the past. So we end up not tying that past effort to the present, to what we’re achieving today.
Think of it like this:
The solution to this problem is identifying the right habits and implementing them NOW so you can reap the rewards LATER.
And that’s exactly what we’re doing today.
Alright, alright. Enough background. Let’s get into the real meat and talk about the 3 best habits of rich people you need to copy.
Habit #1: Track Your Progress
People don’t stumble into becoming a success. They aim for it. So in order for you to achieve that same kind of success, you need to…
A) Set Goals
Set goals. What exactly do you want to achieve? Is it to climb the corporate ladder? Accumulate enough wealth to retire early? Or just get some extra dough to send your kids to college?
Try to make each goal SMART:
Specific
Measurable
Actionable
Relevant
Time-Based
The more exact you can make your goals, the easier it’ll be for you to work your way towards them.
B) Determine Milestones
What are the steps you need to take to achieve each goal? And what do you need to accomplish in order to take each step?
If for example your goal is to make $1 million in commissions this year, you can break that goal down into quarterly, monthly, weekly, and even daily targets. How many deals do you have to close each quarter to stay on track?? How many cold emails and calls do you have to make each week to hit those monthly goals?
When you break your larger goals down into smaller, daily tasks, you can tell in an instant if you are running behind or ahead of the game.
So set those larger goals, break them down into milestones and smaller tasks, and then track your progress towards completing each.
Habit #2: Pay Your Future Self First
For this one, it helps to think of yourself as two distinct people. There’s present you—that’s the you watching this video here right now. And then there’s future you—that’s the you in a day, a month, a year, a decade.
What you want to do is take a fixed percentage of your monthly income and invest it towards your future self. I don’t care if it was a great month. And I don’t care if it was a terrible month. What matters here is you’re paying forward your hard-earned dough so that future you’s life will be just a little bit easier.
Now, I’m not talking about buying that car. Or taking that vacation. Because really, that’s investing in present you. And once you spend that cash, it instantly becomes dead money. But when you invest in your future you, it’s living money. Money that pays out dividends. And money that earns a return, getting you closer to real financial freedom.
Some examples of what you can do to pay your future self include:
Investing in the Stock Market
Maxing Out Your 401(k) Contribution
Saving for a New House
Taking a Sales Skills Workshop
Habit #3: Continuous Self-Improvement
Continuous and relentless self-improvement.
Nobody, and I mean nobody, starts off from square one with all the skills they need to make millions. It just doesn’t happen.
Instead, you’ve got to consistently expand your skillset. You’ve got to improve the skills you already have today. And you have to become better than you ever thought you could be.
Now, I teased this a bit before but in sales, we’re particularly lucky because the improvements we need to make the big bucks are easier than with other industries.
Want to climb the corporate ladder? Buckle up for decades of daily learning before you make your millions.
Starting a business? Settle in for year after year of pain, financial insecurity, and, oh yeah, a very real risk of complete failure.
But to win in sales, all you have to be able to do is:
Understand Your Market
Get in Front of Buyers
Explain the Value
Cultivate the Right Mindset
That’s it!
Now, if you’d like to learn more about these four steps, we’ve actually cover that in another video coming up in the next few days. Be sure to subscribe so you won’t miss it!
Sales is easily the smallest segment of commerce, but it holds the greatest rewards. So if you can tap into the low-input and high-output nature of the industry by improving your sales skills every day, you’ll tap into the quickest way to get rich without taking huge risks.
Summary
Getting rich isn’t a fantasy. It certainly isn’t easy. But by cultivating the right habits…
Tracking Your Progress
Paying Your Future Self
Continuously Improving Your Skills
And best of all, once these habits take hold, your success is no longer a matter of “if”. Instead, it’s a matter of “when”.
Want To Smash Quota? Become A Hybrid Seller | Salesman Podcast
Mar 21, 2022
Fred Copestake is the Founder of Brindis and author of ‘Selling Through Partnering Skills' & ‘Hybrid Selling'. In today’s episode of The Salesman Podcast, Fred shares strategies around how you can smash your sales quota and unleash your full potential by becoming a hybrid seller.
You'll learn:
Sponsored by:
Free SalesCode assessment
Learn your strengths and weaknesses in an instant. Taken by over 10,000+ of your competitors. Don't get left behind.
Take the free assessment
Featured on this episode:
Host - Will Barron
Founder of Salesman.org
Guest - Fred Copestake
Hybrid Selling Expert
Rocky – AI Mindset & Self-Improvement digital coach in your pocket.
Transcript
Will Barron:
Hi. My name is Will, and welcome to today's episode of the salesman podcast. On today's show we're going to look into how to become a hybrid salesperson. And today's guest is the man Fred Copestake. Fred is the founder of Brindis Sales Training and author of the Hybrid Selling book and Selling Through Partnering Skills. And we're going to talk about both these on today's episode. With that, Fred, welcome to the show.
Fred Copestake:
Thank you very much. Thank you for inviting me. Real pleasure.
What is Hybrid Selling? · [00:35]
Will Barron:
You're more than welcome. I'm glad to have you on, mate. Okay. I can feel you've got a strong energy. I can feel you're excited mate, to be on the show, so hopefully we can continue this with some questions from my side. But with that, I'm going to give you a terrible question. It's a lazy question, but I think it's a good starting point to set up the rest of the show. You probably answered this question a million times before. And so I feel bad for throwing it at you, but what the heck is hybrid selling? Someone who's unfamiliar with that term, there's tens of thousands people listen to this. What is hybrid selling Fred?
Fred Copestake:
Well, my usual lazy answer is what do you think it is? But actually, no, let's go with that if you don't mind. If you could give me what you think it is without going into too much thought, then we can take it from there.
Will Barron:
Well, I'm not assuming because I know what it is because I've read the book. But coming from an assumptive standpoint I would say it's selling both old ways of phones and emails, and the new ways of leveraging Zoom, leveraging the newer buyer journey where the buyer is focused on consumer content, engaging with salespeople like [inaudible 00:01:32] on the process. It's focusing on a new exchange of value where the buyer has access to information where they didn't have it in the past, and they perhaps want salespeople to help them out with different things. How does that fit?
Fred Copestake:
Yeah. No, very good. Very good sir, yes. You clearly have read it. No. No. A lot of people will tend to say is, “Oh. It's when we've got to do stuff using different techniques,” or, “We've got to do stuff like using video and sending video and this kind of stuff,” so working virtually. And my answer will tend to be well you, “Well, that's virtual selling then isn't it? That's already got a name. That is a thing.” So for me, it's something slightly different where hybrid's about a mix. And so it's a mix of approaches, it's a mixture of things that we need to do to make sure that we are bang up to date and we're going to do things that make a difference for the customer. And come seeing a lot of good stuff that's gone on before, and some of those newer things to deal with the way that people are thinking, because people are thinking differently as well now. So it's a blend. It's a mixed approach.
Hybrid Selling 101: The Things Today’s Buyer Expects From the Modern-Day Salesperson · [02:28]
Will Barron:
How are people thinking differently from the perspective of we're hopefully on the far end of this global pandemic, there's other things going on in the world which we won't talk about this second because, well, by the time the show goes out who knows what's happened in that area of the world. So we'll miss that but it's post pandemic. What the buyers want different from salespeople, how do salespeople need to engage differently with buyers? And how do we get more deals done use this hybrid approach?
Fred Copestake:
Okay. So I mean first thing, I wrote book one because there's a bunch of challenges that salespeople have got that we need to deal with. And we were chatting about this before we came on live, weren't we, where we've got to deal with busy, busy, busy, oldie-worldy, and muddled mindset. And that's what salespeople have got to cope with now. So busy, busy, busy, they're running around, they're doing lots of different stuff. They've been very, very active, well blah, blah, blah. But not actually getting anything done because it's ineffective.
Fred Copestake:
Oldie-worldy is using old fashioned stuff that doesn't work anymore. It's winding people up because it is that kind of archaic. And then the model mindset is that, actually, are we supposed to be consultative here or are we supposed to be transactional? Because the company says that we're consultative: we deal with problems, we deal with solutions. But then they push us to sell a load of stuff at the end of the week, the end of the month.
Fred Copestake:
So I mean, that's actually how I wrote book one to deal with those issues. That's by being more collaborative. But yeah, as soon as I launched that the pandemic came along. And you could see that what happened is that the speed of change also caused us a whole load of other issues, so that's what Hybrid Selling and the book is all about. That's why I wrote it so fast, was to help people with these new challenges which, again, broadly break down into customer challenges, climate challenges and change yourself challenges.
Changes in Sales Techniques and How to Cope in the Hybrid Selling Environment · [04:12]
Will Barron:
Sure. Sure. So I think it'd be valuable to touch on these in a little bit more detail, because I think we could do a whole episode on being busy, doing things an old way that perhaps doesn't get the response that we expect from customers. And then just frankly, lying about being consultants and just trying to shove pictures down people's throat at the end of the day, because salespeople have targets. They have quotas. They get sacked if they don't hit them over months, quarters, years. And so it's one thing for management and marketing to say one thing, it's another thing to be put in a position where your livelihood's on the line. So is it cool with you if we run through these in I guess-
“If we think about customer changes, stuff that's happened very recently, I talk about ABC, so customers are more Advanced, they're more Biased, but they're also more Confused.” Fred Copestake · [04:55]
Fred Copestake:
Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, I am a fan of the podcasts. I listen to them and I know that you do a really good job in trying to help people address that stuff and get this as modern and as up to date as possible. So yeah, if we go through each of these, if we think about customer changes, stuff that's happened very, very recently. I talk about ABC, so customers are more advanced, they're more biassed, but they're also more confused. So by advanced, again, we know that customers are now further down the buying cycle. They're trying to self-diagnose. They're doing a lot of their own thing. They don't want to speak to sellers. They're trying to do everything on their own. And we've got to deal with that. That is going on. That's real. That's what the research is showing. When I say customers are more biassed, by this I'd probably mean that they're more biassed to what they like and what they know, or even that they're more demanding if you like. They are B2C consumers as well, aren't they?
Fred Copestake:
So people expect far more. And I'm not sure that we always can deliver on that. So again, we've got to really understand then their problem and be able to deal with that. So it's all about them, really. They're in the driving seat. They're in this really strong position. But equally, they are also more confused at the same time because, I mean, I talk about we're in this VUCA world, aren't we? Where volatility and certainty, complexity, ambiguity, this is all going on. So yes, they know what they like. They like what they know. They're doing their own thing. But actually, oh God, [inaudible 00:06:01] what's going on anyway.
Fred Copestake:
So that's the first set of challenges, these customer challenges that we need to be dealing with in which a hybrid setting approach can help us with. It's teed up to do that.
Value Selling: The Anatomy of the Modern Salesperson · [06:16]
Will Barron:
Can we turn this to our own advantage? If customers are confused, it seems that they're in a position where if we can help them become less confused they're going to listen to us. Then if they're going to have a bias towards buying for vendors that they know and like, if we can solve their confusion, then clearly they're going to know and like us. And perhaps they're in a position where we can subtly influence them, nudge them towards an appropriate buying decision. Is this an opportunity as opposed to a threat of the old way of selling things? Should we frame this up as this is an exciting time? If you can be clear with your value proposition, help buyers, and then guide them through the steps of the process that they're stuck with, that the deals are more likely to come with you, and that this is actually an opportunity, again, as opposed to the threat of just being able to spam emails all day and make quota kind of five years ago.
Fred Copestake:
Big time. It's a huge opportunity because if people aren't doing that, that's why we're not going meetings. That's why customers don't want to speak to people and they're trying to do it themselves. But as soon as you can come in and say, “Look, I can be your guide. I can lead you. I can help you.” You are setting yourself apart. This is what the hybrid salesperson can do. They're adding value in that way.
Fred Copestake:
I mean even to VUCA, I came across this model of VUCA prime where you kind of fight VUCA with VUCA. It's brilliant. So if customers are suffering volatility, we help them by establishing the vision that they need, understanding what it is that they're trying to deal with. If they've got a problem with uncertainty, we can help with understanding. We can share information. We can ask them good questions. We can provoke them. We can prompt them. We can get them thinking better.
Fred Copestake:
If they're suffering with complexity, well then we can help with clarity. We can set out the stages. We can talk to them about, “This is how typically things are bought in your world,” if you are not doing it that often. Or even if you are, let's make sure you're doing it as best we possibly can. And if they're suffering with ambiguity then we'll talk about being more agile. We'll give them options to be able to respond to stuff faster and get in front of their own get.
“Forget your products, forget your services, stop talking about that bloody stuff because people will always say they’re not interested. They're not interested at that time, but become interested later once you've helped them get their head around stuff.” – Fred Copestake · [08:22]
Fred Copestake:
So for me, that's where a modern salesperson can add huge value. That's the opportunity for them. It's how you are helping people to think, what you are doing as part of the process yourself. Forget your products, forget your services, stop talking about that bloody stuff because people say we're not interested. They're not interested at that time, but become interested later once you've helped them get their head around stuff. It's a huge opportunity for salespeople acting professionally and bringing their full game to bring that value. Yeah?
Will Barron:
I want to ask you some examples of questions and things in a second that we can make this real practical for the audience. But Fred, I feel like if I was listening to the show right now I'd be like, “That makes total sense. That's the place I want to be,” because we do this with our own selling to the enterprise of our training programme. I jump on calls, and by the end of the call if the prospect and potential customer isn't super narrow minded in what they want, whether it's our training programme, a different training programme, I've pointed them on one way or the other. They know where they are, where they want to be. What's stopping them. The status is quo. How are we going to get them from one side to the other? If they've not done that, it's been just a terrible call from my perspective. As well as pulling the discovery, and the qualification, and everything that I need to make sure that the deal can go ahead.
Will Barron:
I try to make sure that they get a tonne of value. And often I get email responses back of, “Hey, you're not a good fit for us right now. The budget isn't right,” whatever it is, “but we will use you in two years,” because you've really helped clarify and added a tonne of value in that one call which is great for our longer sales cycles. It's not going to be great for some salespeople listening to this who have short sales cycles.
The Collaborative Selling Approach: How to Set Yourself Up as an Authority Figure Even If You’re Just Starting Out · [09:50]
Will Barron:
So with all that said, and I want to get into that in a second because that has true value in its own. How to do this on a call, questions we should ask. Before that though, Fred, how do we set ourselves up so that we're in a position to be able to have these kind of conversations? Because when a sales leader jumps on a call with me they know that I am a little bit of a knuckle dragging salesperson, but I have done quite a lot of podcast interviews, have spoken to thousands of sales reps over the years and done consulting a one-on-one train with them. We have built a half decent, at this point, training programme so they know I'm not a complete numpty.
Will Barron:
And I'm sure it's the same with you. Customers get on the phone with you and they're like, “Fred I've consumed your content, podcast, books. I'm basically on board. I'm ready to rock and roll. I just need you to solve a few questions or solve a few answers. Give a few answers to a few questions, solve a few problems.” But for the average salesperson listening to this who's selling some random piece of software that hopefully is really valuable and really great for their audience and their prospects. They're starting from a deficit, I feel, versus what me and you are. How do they get in a position where they have, essentially, the authority and the respect from the buyer to be able to ask these questions and have this adult conversation, because it's very difficult to go from cold call to the consultative conversation that you just outlined then.
Fred Copestake:
Sure. I mean I think for me, this starts with a mindset.
Will Barron:
Sure.
Fred Copestake:
This starts with what are you actually trying to do here and who are you trying to do it for? “Oh, I'm trying to do it for me to hit my sales targets. Happy days.” That'll come through. That'll seep through the American guys. I'm sure you've interviewed some of the guys who talk about having commission breath, and just people don't want to speak to you if you're like that. So for me that's a definition.
Fred Copestake:
But one, I do talk about a collaborative selling approach. We've got to think like that. So that does bring in the old consultative sales techniques, it brings in added value sales techniques, it thinks about how you can be bang up to date by sharing lots of information using a bunch of different media. But you are trying to collaborate with people, so you've got to make that really clear that it is them who is the most important thing. This is why we're doing this stuff. And so we need to start thinking about them almost like as a partner. And then that is a word that's thrown around willy nilly. It's usually for the person who's going to try and dominate the partnership, I often find. But if you're genuinely thinking, “What do partners do? How do partners operate? How do they think? What does that relationship look like?” That changes the way you go about doing your stuff. It changes the questions you ask. It changes why you're asking them. It changes why people are going to want to answer. It changes what you do as a result of it.
Fred Copestake:
So generally think about trying to co-create, trying to collaborate, trying to do stuff like that. That is what will just turbocharge the calls rather than, “Oh, I've got a little checklist here that I've got to get through to see if it's worthwhile working with you. Are you the person I really want to talk to or somebody else? And now can I talk about all my things?” Because nobody's interested in that, and now that's why they're pushing us away. That's why people don't want to speak to us. You're going into that collaborative mindset, that is going to start to set you apart.
Practical Ways to Practice Collaborative Selling · [12:53]
Will Barron:
Are there any practical ways that we can demonstrate this on, this is an obvious one, maybe we don't call it a qualifying call that we're trying to book with a prospect. We call it a free consulting session. I don't know, whatever it is. The mindset is spot on, love it. We can come back to that in a second, perhaps. But is there any way to verbally communicate what we're trying to achieve with the buyer whether it's via emails, cold calls, cadences, [crosstalk 00:13:18] outreach, whatever it is. How do we very literally tell the buyer that we are different to all of the other people who are spamming their inboxes.
Fred Copestake:
[inaudible 00:13:27] we could call it what you want.
Will Barron:
Sure. Yeah.
Fred Copestake:
Finish what you do as a result of it. But yeah, I know how important it is to title something to give that indication. But this stuff will come out from the very first moment. And you're talking there about the outreach and about why should I have a meeting with you? Why should I have a meeting with you? Because I want to talk to you about my wonderful training programme that's got lots and lots of things. It's got a little robot you can talk to. It's got excellent videos. It's got me talking. It's like, “Okay whatever.”
Fred Copestake:
But if you are talking about, “Look, this is what I understand about you. This is what I understand about your world. These are the challenges that are happening, and that there is a way to deal with this that we can probably help you with.” So have some thoughts around these areas, and then let's start to talk about it having already consumed some stuff. You are already way further down the line of what it is that you're trying to do. So you've got to be demonstrating the understanding of people, of their world, of what they're trying to achieve to earn the right for that call, if you like.
Will Barron:
Yep. Sure.
Fred Copestake:
To just walk in and, “But I'll do that in the call.” No, not good enough. You won't, or certainly with me you won't as a customer because I'm too busy for that. I'm not going to take a chance on have a call because something good might come out of it. No. I don't want to take that risk. Show me this is going to be good because we're going to get stuff out of it, because I've seen what you were doing already and even where you approached it. That's what I want to be doing.
How to Remove Friction in Your Sales Processes by Practicing Consultative Selling · [14:42]
Will Barron:
So is it fair to say then, and tell me if this is completely off base, your cold outreach email could be an hypothesis about the buyer. You've looked into the company, you've compared it with your best customers, you've compared it with people who have failed in the marketplace, whatever reason. We have a problem that you can solve.
Will Barron:
And you perhaps lead with, Hey, you are similar to this. We've worked with them in the past on these three things. This is what they had issue with. Here's a piece of content, here's a case study or whatever on how we solved it. Would it make sense to jump on a quick call, to see if you had these issues and if we can solve it for you. Is that the kind of outreach that then leads to these kind of consultative call? I keep trying to pull back on calling it a sales call because it's more a conversation, right?
Fred Copestake:
It's still a sales call. Yeah. That's what modern fashion salespeople do. So yeah, its like that but shorter.
Will Barron:
Sure.
“I probably wouldn't be down with, “Have a little look at this,” because now you're making the customer have to do something. If you've called out the challenges, if you called out the things that will prove that you do know what you're talking about, that should be enough just to get the ball rolling.” – Fred Copestake · [15:45]
Fred Copestake:
I know. And we know we've got to try to make something short as possible. So yeah, it is sort of saying in your world this is probably the stuff that's going on. Bang, bang, bang. Yeah. We have dealt with people like this. I probably wouldn't even be down with, “Have a little look at this,” because now again, you're making the customer have to do something. If you've called out the challenges, if you called out the things that they will recognise as that you do know what you're talking about, that should be enough just to get the ball rolling, if you like.
Will Barron:
Sure. [crosstalk 00:16:04]-
Fred Copestake:
But as soon as it's coming, me, me, me, we, we, we, I, I, I… It's like, “Good for you. [crosstalk 00:16:08]-
Will Barron:
I had a good pitch from my way the other week, Fred. It was a copywriter. So we are launching, I won't talk about it too much because it's going to go off in every podcast I do. So I don't want to plug it too much, but we're launching a free version of our sales code assessment. Relaunching it, because two people tried to take it originally, it crashed, And so we've had to re-engineer it so it can handle the kind of traffic they're thrown at it. So with that said, someone tried to take it, couldn't get through it, page crashed.
Will Barron:
And so they emailed me going, “Hey, it seems like you're having tonnes of success here with this specific thing.” So obviously they've got my attention because they obviously care about what we're doing. And he was like, “Hey, I'm a copywriter. I would love to help you write some follow up emails for the sales code assessment. And I'll take the ideas out of your brain. I'll put them in copy that people will click on, and I'll save you hundreds of hours worth of faffing about to do so.” And he won a bunch of business, like two or three grand worth of copyright business out of me just from that one cold email.
Will Barron:
And I think he was actually surprised how, because I just said, “send me an invoice,” and immediately just I was like, “If you could send me that email, you can write emails from me that will work as well.” And I think he was slightly shocked at how quick I just paid him. But that was an email that got my attention, obviously wasn't spam because it was so specific to me. It made me go, “Ah. That's what I need. I've not got time for all this copywriting and stuff. But I do want my thoughts and ideas to be the lead of all this.” And he's going to suck it out with me, do the legwork, and provide me with a great copy.
Will Barron:
And I said that was a cold email from some dude I never heard of. Got paid a few hours later. And the work was done a few hours after that. And I was like, “That was a great cold email.”
Personalized Versus Relevant Sales Emails · [17:44]
Fred Copestake:
But that's a brilliant example because, again, done the homework. Has looked at what you are doing, your world. Has made that so relevant to you. And I think people get confused only between personalised and relevant. It's, “Hey Will, I looked at your link to your profile and you went to the same university as me and you like dogs.” And, “Yeah. But I talk to my mates in the pub about that. So I don't need to pay someone to talk to about that.” Yeah. But they're saying, “This is what's happened. This is what you are doing. It's bang up to date.” And you're thinking, “You must be watching me carefully because I literally only just announced that.” So you've taken the opportunity, responded to it, it is all about me. So yeah, come on, let's carry on the conversation because I don't feel as though I'm going to be wasting my time here. [crosstalk 00:18:27] example.
When You Earn the Right to Sell to a Prospect, You Put Yourself In a Better Position to Get the Business · [18:27]
Will Barron:
I feel like what we're saying is not common sense, but it is somewhat obvious. If you pitch yourself as the buyer, all this makes top sense. As a salesperson we're so indoctrinated. And media and society has their own thoughts and opinions about salespeople as the stereotype, which probably floods into our industry as well. Is it fair to say that if we put ourselves in the buyer's position, a lot of what we're describing right now would be more obvious and clear to us?
Fred Copestake:
Yeah I mean, in some ways it is obvious when you get it, I suppose. So it's a bit harsh to call it that. But yeah, again, salespeople perceive it as, “Oh you've got to go and you've got to have the gift for the gab. And you've got to sell ice to Eskimos and talk the hind legs off a donkey,” and all this kind of thing. As opposed to it's no you've got to be really good at understanding other people to be able to put yourself in their shoes, to talk about the thing that they find most interesting, which is themselves, to then work out, “Well, actually we can work together on this to make you a better version of yourself. To do what you are trying to do better, quicker, more effectively, whatever.”
Fred Copestake:
And by demonstrating that that's how you are and that's what your approach to sales is early on. Then again, yeah, like I say, that's why people want to speak to you because you are a more collaborative person because you're going to be using, like I said, risk of repeating consultative sales skills. You'll work out what's going on there. Where are they now? Where do they want to be? You'll think then, “Okay, I can solve that pain.” And you never use that word with the customer. Please never ever use that word with the customer. But you can solve those issues, those challenges, those concerns, and add more into it. At the same time, let's build some value into what we're doing because we're spending time together, there's other things that I can do. I can lead the discussion. We can start to go down this route. I can introduce other people. We can do all of these things, but yeah, we've got to earn the right early on and demonstrate that` that's how we go about stuff, otherwise hidden gems because we'll never have those conversations.
Will Barron:
So obviously I agree with you, which is a problem. Right? Because these episodes are more-
Fred Copestake:
I know. Boring isn't it?
Will Barron:
… exciting when I'm debating people or I'm going back and forth. Obviously clearly-
Fred Copestake:
[crosstalk 00:20:33] in a minute.
Stop Doing These Things If You Want More Time For Productive Sales Activities · [20:33]
Will Barron:
So I'll try and play the devil's advocate a little bit here, Fred. And I feel like if someone's listening, they're driving along in the car now. They're just off to the office. They're off to see a customer wherever it is. They're going. This sounds fantastic. I've not got time to do any of this crap. I'm so busy. All I can do each morning is click send on this email cadence that's going to spam 500 people with a kind of customised, personalised email. And I know that I can scrape up 1% or 2% of those suckers and they'll jump on a call. And then everything can fall into place, right? A lot of people will be thinking, “Once I get the right person at the right time with the right product and the right need on the phone, then I can have the consultative conversation.”
Will Barron:
So if we're going to go for this approach which is high touch and hopefully higher conversion rate. So we end up doing more revenue on the back of it via less outreach, via less annoyance to the market. We want to reach out to people who are the right people, at the right place, at the right time. Perhaps we can trigger events, and things can be engineered somewhat with pricing or whatever it is. But with that in mind, how do we start to free up time on the other side of things? You mentioned this at the top of the show. How do we become less busy and less productive? Is there anything in the hybrid selling world that we should stop doing to free up time to do the activities that we know generate results?
Fred Copestake:
Right. If somebody picks up a copy of the book, if I had known a copy of the book, we'll put a link to the scorecard in that I've developed, which people can answer questions to see how close they are to what I believe is the modern selling model and way of operating moving forward. And if they don't do that, well, the good news is they'll have plenty of time to do whatever they want because they will be at a risk of becoming irrelevant. And the issue that I've got and why I love coming on things like this so I can talk about it, is that we can be little bit like that metaphorical frog in the water that's warming up. It's getting warmer and warm and warmer. The frog doesn't know and so it doesn't know to jump out, but it'll end up boiling itself. And that's what's going on.
Fred Copestake:
So you can sort of carry on doing what you've always done. You're getting this limited and less and less success. And that is what's going to create the busyness. And so hopefully what I can do, and also fellow trainers who do think like this, is saying, “Just stop and give yourselves a moment. And think about how are you doing it because it isn't going to be something that's going to future proof you.” You'll get away with it for a bit, but ultimately it will not be effective. It just won't work full-stop. But you'll not really notice it, and potentially until it's too late. And that sounds quite, I don't know, doom and gloom. But equally it is massive opportunity because if you get ahead of the game and you start doing this stuff, make yourself time to do all of the things that, I believe, are involved in hybrid selling, you will be a better operator for longer, basically.
This is The Modern Selling Model. Are You Practicing It? · [23:37]
Will Barron:
How do we know, and this maybe the most ridiculous question I've ever asked, how do we know if we're the frog, Fred? How do we know if we're that frog?
Fred Copestake:
That's the point. You don't. I mean, apart from somebody comes along and they say, “Here. Have my assessment for free. Just look at that, pick up the recommendations off the back of it and go and do something about it,” because a lot of the things, a lot of the hybrid selling model I talk about, it's not brand new. “God. Here's a lesson in how not to sell stuff on our sales podcast.” But what I'm saying is that here are some of the things that are recognised as being good selling that you might well be doing. We'll make sure you carry on doing it and you make it part and parcel of daily activity.
Fred Copestake:
There might be things that you don't recognise but which actually have been around for a bit. And there are some things that you'd say, “Ah, they are a little bit newer and I need to get my head around from those new techniques.” And what I'm trying to do is I've tried to set it out as cleanly as possible, as simply as possible. To say, “Look. Consider these things and get these into the way that you operate because otherwise your performance isn't going to be good enough.”
Will Barron:
Okay. So therefore, I will link to the scorecard below this episode on YouTube. And then in the [inaudible 00:24:44] over at salesman.org. I will also do the scorecard myself and I'll put my score on the show notes to see how I perform. And if I'm just a massive hypocrite doing these shows with yourself, Fred, then I'm just a nonsense salesperson myself, which could be the case. It could be. I could be the frog.
Fred Copestake:
It could well be. No, it'd be really interesting. Thank you. Thank you for offering to me the frog in this live dissection. Oh, this is getting a bit weird. No, but what might well come across, without being a mind reader or anything, is that I do know that stuff. I was aware of it. I've used it in the past. “Hey, we're out of medical wrap.” We used to do that stuff and I've kind of forgot it in this role. But I should be bringing it in because I mean, if people want the simple takeaway for this it's that the analogy that I use, it's like playing a drum. And that if your performances, you've got a little drum and you're tapping it away with a single drum stick, that performance might just about have been good enough. As we go forward because of the speed of change, and it's to do with the speed of change, it will not be enough.
Fred Copestake:
And what we need to do as salespeople is assemble ourselves this full drum kit. We've got all these different bits that we can play and that we hit as and when it's the right time to do that. So we become a more accomplished and a kind of a fuller operator in what we do. And most people will probably, if they're truly honest with themselves, step back and go, “You know what? Yeah. My drum kit isn't big enough.” I need to start building up, now, literally for the here and now. But also certainly moving forward if I want to have a career in this I need to be bringing that thing up.
Will Barron:
Sure. Something that I'm doing this year which I've never done before, and it seems absolutely ludicrous, is quarterly reviews. So I've got one coming up in a few weeks from now. And I think salespeople should be doing this as well. I'm taking three days off: no content production, no customer calls, no one-on-one mentoring, or anything. And I'm just going to look through the numbers I'm going to see what's working, what isn't, what content is, what isn't. And we get tonnes and tonnes of customer feedback because so many people go through the training programme of what people want, what people don't want. And how ludicrous is that. I've never. I've just been so busy that I've never done that before routinely.
Why You as an Individual Sales Rep Need to Start Reviewing Your Weekly/Monthly/Quarterly Sales Activities · [26:50]
Will Barron:
At the end of every year we do a big poll, like 5,000, 6,000 people giving those responses. And that kind of goes into a big database, and numbers get spat out of that, and thoughts and opinions that we can improve upon. But yeah, quarterly report is something I never did when I was in a sales role, other than maybe we had a quarterly sales meeting so I needed to do some kind of presentation for that. But really deep diving into the CRM, into the email marketing that we're doing and everything like that, is my mission this year so I can avoid becoming the frog.
Fred Copestake:
Yeah. And that hopefully, and by the sounds of it, will involve a lot of review of yourself. And that's again another drum that I said I beat, which is that salespeople have got to take time for themselves. They've got to give themselves time to stop and think. And then as we get under pressure and as the world speeds up and we're trying to do all this stuff, that busy, busy, busy goes into a bit of a vicious circle because we don't just stop and go, “Hang on a minute. What am I doing? Is it making a difference here? Am I doing the right stuff? How can I get better at the things that I need to do? Am I concentrating on the wrong area?” And we just feel kind of guilty giving ourselves that time. So I strongly advise salespeople to just give themselves some thinking space, some reflection time, because that is an investment. Think of it as an investment. That's how I'd make a recommendation on that. I mean, I do that every day.
Will Barron:
Yep. How [crosstalk 00:28:17]-
Fred Copestake:
I do that every day. And people go…
How to Review Your Individual Selling Activities · [28:16]
Will Barron:
Was it a process?
Fred Copestake:
I talk to a robot. Yes Fred, we'll cut this bit out. No seriously, I talk to a robot. I use this app called Rocky AI, Rocky.ai. It's an artificial intelligent chat bot. But rather than you ask the artificial intelligence something and it gives you an answer like, “Hey Siri, what's the capital of,” Rocky asks you questions so you've got to answer these things. So first thing in the morning, grab the phone. And I know people say, “Oh, that's the worst thing you can do.” Yeah. But first thing I do is put Rocky on. So in the morning he's asking me about, I have it turned on at the moment onto clarity and purpose. It's asking what's driving you today. Why are you doing this thing? How are you going to do this? It's five minutes, but it's the questions that it asks like any good coach would, that makes me think.
Fred Copestake:
And again, you type these things in and it's using the AI. It's using machine learning to then ask a question based on the response you give. And then suggesting little nuggets to read. It's an amazing little programme. It's so cool.
Will Barron:
I love that.
Fred Copestake:
And yeah, no, it is good. And then in the evening, again while Mrs. Is watching EastEnders, whatever. It's like, “Okay bang. Rocky on. 7:00. Blah, blah, blah,” another five minutes answering questions. What have you done in the day? Reflecting, and of course the question triggering questions. Salespeople shouldn't need explaining why questions are such a good thing. That's what Rocky does. He's brilliant. And again, I personalise him a bit too much, I think. But no, it's a nice big kit.
Will Barron:
Well, about 85% of the audience are going, “What in the hell is EastEnders?” So that's an inside joke for, it was Brit, right? Well, I do something similar but less tech focused and a little bit more old school of I just read a book every morning. And I'll read books that are provocative books that are on coaching, or whatever I'm trying to learn at the moment. And I just take great pleasure in making a… I want the dog. The dog is just laying next to me. I'll stroke him. I'll have a coffee, a strong coffee. And I'll just sit and read. Me misses gets up, say, an hour later than what I do each morning. And that process of just having someone else's thought in my brain, it's almost like a meditative thing. And I get loads of ideas. And I'll be thinking that, “Oh, I've come out of ideas.” It's similar to being in the shower, right?
Fred Copestake:
Yeah.
Will Barron:
Where you focus on one thing, or you're not focusing on anything, you're subconscious is spitting up all these things that has been focusing on during the night, and it's been working on while you've been asleep. And I'll have the notepad next to me and I'll write down all kinds of stuff, 80% of it nonsense. But then it's the 10% of, “Hey, you were a bit rude in the car the other day when that person drove in front of you.” What does that mean? Or this book is talking about… I'm reading two books on minimalism at the moment and I'm trying to implement that into our business as we touched on before we clicked record, Fred, of how to simplify things. A whole training process, and methodologies, selling made simple. So how can I put that even further into the world whilst also driving expensive cars and having a nice big house and stuff, so there's obviously a bit of balance there with some of this.
The Minimalism Mindset in Sales · [31:14]
Will Barron:
And it's something that, in fact, just this morning, I got this quote I was like, “That is genius. That is really powerful.” I'll share it with you now. You tell me what you think, Fred. I don't know how this relates to sales, but I'm going to butcher the quote slightly but it was on the lines of, “Minimalism is removing everything that doesn't help you become the person you want to become.” So I guess if we put that into the sales perspective, we can probably get rid of a lot of crappy cold outreach that doesn't help us. We can probably start doing a lot more referrals and things like that proactively help people you've already helped. You can stop, which I think you might be on board of as well of, because you've been mentioned a few times go back to things that have worked in the past and leverage them as opposed to try and reinvent things, or use this new sales tool, or use this, this AI robot that's going to spit out all these things.
Will Barron:
And in my experience, none of it is ever that valuable, the sales tech stack, other than the obvious tools that we need. And it's if we think about sales like that of who you want to become that quota crushing salesperson, well you've got to become the person who can do the work and then you've got to choose the right work to do and just scrap everything else. Right?
Fred Copestake:
Yeah. No. I think all of those. And I take it another angle as well is think about it from a customer perspective. I mean again, that's how we should be thinking as salespeople. So it's minimalism. Less really is more, often, because when you say, “Well, I'm not really sure what to sell this person. So if I just keep telling them stuff, I just keep talking, I just keep giving them more things, more features, more benefits, more stuff, more whatever, more stories, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Yeah. They'll be able to pick out something that's good for them.”
Fred Copestake:
Well, that's lazy. And that's why the customers are saying, “I don't want to talk to this person anymore. They're not making my life any easier.” But by having that real focus as to I want to speak to you because I reckon that these are some of the things that will be challenges for you because they are challenges to other people in your world. And I've even done a bit of research to see that, actually, I can know that's what you're going through. Let's have a chat about it. This then is the response for you. This is what you need to do. Less is more. I mean, what a brilliant sales approach rather than just chuck everything at it and hope that something sticks.
How to Guide Buyers Towards Purchasing Decisions · [33:20]
Will Barron:
You can almost reframe it as, within reason, do what the customer wants and then just scrap all the other crap that you're doing. And as long as you don't take it too literally, but that's your mindset, you're going to be on the right track there, right?
Fred Copestake:
Yeah. Yeah. And then this isn't about being subservient to customers by the way. Yeah. So as I talk a lot about leading customers, and again, I use that word because well it forms an acronym evolve which is in the book. But it deliberately gets people's back up a little bit. It's like, “What? You are saying salespeople should lead customers?” So yeah, absolutely I am. Not up the garden path. Not in an '80s kind of manipulative way where we're trying to get them to do stuff they don't really want to do. And we're using all these and trickery things. It's leading them in something that they are struggling with, they don't know how to do. So maybe the word guide would be better. But yeah, we're doing that sort of stuff. But it's doing this stuff that is absolutely relevant to that.
Fred Copestake:
A word I keep going back to, whenever I'm thinking about hybrid selling and I'm thinking about helping people be moderate, helping people balanced out. I keep going back to relevance. Is what you're doing relevant to the customer, to you, whatever? And so, yeah, that's why I try to do. And I mean, that's why I did write the book so quickly because I thought, “These change have happened, they weren't foreseen, they probably changes which were going to happen anyway it's just they happened so fast. Let's get people ahead the game and get them doing stuff that's just going to help them.”
Will Barron:
Yep. I remember I've talked about this on this show before, we can wrap up with this, these tales about the books of when I was in medical device sales I had actual arguments with sales management, a regional sales director, what was his titled?The national sales director of I was not allowed to give our customers catalogues. I was not allowed to leave product catalogues with surgeons so they could look through. And there was no pricing or anything in these catalogues. Heaven forbid email over pricing of multiple products rather than sending them a quote. And even to log in online, this last company I worked for had incredible content. They worked with some of the world's top leading colorectal surgeons, urologists, gynaecologists in, I wouldn't name the company. I know they did that. But in their own operating theatres, using all their equipment. And the surgeons were more than happy to promote and talk about the procedures and how they were innovating in their space.
Will Barron:
You had to get a log in to jump into this crappy '90s portal where nothing worked. It definitely didn't work on your phone. It was so backwards when if you, and they've done it now, if you dump those videos on YouTube they'd have tens of thousands of views which doesn't seem like much. But these are tens of thousands of high level surgeons, maybe there's only 50,000 of these individual surgeons in the world. You have a massive percentage of them learning how to do these procedures from your content so of course they're going to go with your product or service.
The Hybrid Selling Environment is Here. You Either Get Onboard Now or Get Left Behind · [36:15]
Will Barron:
Now I had so many battles trying to communicate this. So I feel like what we're describing here, regardless of the pandemic, regardless of whatever else, just with the way that the internet has evolved, the way that business consumer sales has evolved, I think this was always going to happen and perhaps we've just been slapped in the face of it a bit quicker.
Fred Copestake:
It's a bit quicker. And just the use of the technology, the using video, the virtual, all this kind of stuff, sending video. Again, some people are saying, “Oh. I'm not going to do that.” Okay. Well don't do that now, then. You're missing a treat because there are people that are. And I was talking on a sales training last week. I said, “Look, in two years time this will just be the absolute norm. It's what we will be training for. Just the way to do stuff.” Now you can be slightly ahead of the game. So yeah, probably going slightly off track. But no, you're right, it's again, I'll go back to the value the salesperson brings is in the conversation, or it's in the way that they can structure the whole sale so that they're guiding the right people through the right things that they're trying to do. They're stimulate in the right thinking. They're getting the right conversations going. They're showing the right things at the right time or confirming to people who've already done their own diagnosis stuff that, yes, what you saw there is correct.
Fred Copestake:
That's where the salesperson has value. It's not with, “I've got this information. And if you're nice I might show you some.” But we've got all that information from you, your competitors, everyone else. And the fact that I've been in medical sales. I've been at university for seven years to learn about it and practised it for another 20. So yeah, I can live without you, thanks mate.
Parting Thoughts · [37:58]
Will Barron:
My experience is the buyer comes to you just asking for your pricing and your withholding anyway. They're probably just justifying the fact that they've worked with someone else, or they're putting out a tender or something anyway. So at that point, if you're only engaging you've probably lost the deal already. With that, Fred, we'll wrap on that, mate. Tell us about the books. Tells us a little bit more about the scorecard that will be linked below this video or in the show notes as well. And anything else you want to share, mate?
Fred Copestake:
Yeah. Well, I'd say the book I wrote pretty quickly because book one came out and then everything changed. But actually it's not. But one's still very relevant. But Hybrid Selling, there's three parts to it. Part one, there's a story. So we've got two little sales guys, Harry and Larry. They're probably good mates for your Sam actually, to be fair. So yeah, Harry and Larry, and what they do is they've got to go through some changes. Clearly they've got to work out how to get through some quite difficult times. I wrote it like that because I wanted people to identify with where they might be. I mean, I know that storytelling is really effective. Basically they invent the evolve model. And so in part two, I had to go through the evolve model which are the six main elements that I believe make up that big drum set thing I was talking about.
Fred Copestake:
So we talk about the essentials of selling, so the big foundations, the basics, the stuff that we've got to do to make sure we are good at sales. I talk about virtual selling. So yeah, we talked about it, working on video, sending video, social selling, I had that put in to that mix for I needed to put it somewhere. And think about some of the AI tools. To our opportunity management, so again it's thinking about what information do we have? How do we use that? How do we map out what the actions are going to be as a result? How do we take that stuff forward?
Fred Copestake:
And talk about leading, as we've just been saying. How can you guide people? How can you align to their process if they know what it is? How can you help the design process if they don't? Talk about value selling, again, this stuff's been around a long time but I sometimes wonder do people do it well? We seem to have this thing at the moment where people turn up and go, “I'm going to tell you where your value is.” It's, well really, value selling is helping somebody to understand what the value could be and how we can work on that together. Talk about how you expand the sales, so it's account management stuff, customer success management stuff, because we should be selling results and outcomes.
Fred Copestake:
So that packs the bottle up in that nice section as well. Okay, so what are you going to do about it? You'll appreciate it as involved in training that information is good, but it's all about implementation. So it's how can I help people to take this stuff and start to do stuff with it? So some extra analysis tools in there so they can start to understand themselves, broadly like the scorecard that we'll put the link to. But it's all about getting, my mantra is, good people doing good things in a good way. That's how I want to try and help the world of sales, if you like.
Will Barron:
Amazing stuff. Well, I appreciate you Fred. I appreciate you're the first person to come on the show and mention EastEnders. You're the first person over, I say this all time, to say Willy nilly. I don't think that translates elsewhere in the world so I appreciate that, mate. I appreciate you.We'll like to the box, the scorecard, and that AI tool that you mentioned it earlier on in this episode over at salesman.org. And with that Fred, I want to thank you again for joining us on the salesman podcast.
Conquer Your Money Shame... And Make Way More Of It | Salesman Podcast
Mar 18, 2022
Bob Wheeler is a Financial Expert, Motivator, Author of The Money Nerve: Navigating the Emotions of Money. In this episode of The Salesman Podcast, Bob offers a simple and effective framework for creating a healthy relationship with money and explains how emotions trigger our financial decisions.
You'll learn:
Sponsored by:
Free SalesCode assessment
Learn your strengths and weaknesses in an instant. Taken by over 10,000+ of your competitors. Don't get left behind.
Take the free assessment
Featured on this episode:
Host - Will Barron
Founder of Salesman.org
Guest - Bob Wheeler
Financial Expert and Best-Selling Author
Hi, I'm Will. Welcome to the Salesman podcast. On today's episode, we're looking at how you can improve your relationships with money. Our guest is Bob Wheeler. Bob is the author of The Money Nerve. He helps people conquer their money shame and avoid making poor financial decisions by teaching them how emotions can dictate our choices. And with that Bob, welcome to the show.
Bob Wheeler:
Thanks a lot, Will, great to be here.
What’s Your Relationship with Money? · [01:00]
Will Barron:
Great job. This is one of those topics that we've had over experts on to talk about in the past, but it's so important for salespeople to have a healthy relationship with money so that they can have success. Then also, hopefully we can transition to this towards the end of the show, it's important for salespeople to be able to communicate effectively without emotional baggage when they're talking about their prospect's money, whether it's the actual ownership of cash from the prospect itself or the money that they are, I guess, the company they're representing called that they're trying to exchange value or services or products for. People get weird about money pretty quick. Let me ask you this Bob, to get us started, is it likely, in your experience, right, that a majority of the listeners listening to the podcast right now, tens of thousands of salespeople, small business owners and everyone else in between, is it likely that they all have a pretty good relationship with money or is it more likely that we're all a little bit messed up on this subject?
Bob Wheeler:
Well, unfortunately, I would have to say we're probably all a little messed up on this subject. It just, but that's not a bad thing as long as we get conscious about it, but most of us are working from some unconscious beliefs and money blocks.
Money, Emotions, and Why Our Relationship with Money is So Messed Up · [01:40]
Will Barron:
Why is that? If we could start from, if we can pull it all back and start from the beginning, right, are we born, as humans, just with money being a relatively new concept? I don't know how many tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of years old cash in an exchange of value via a, like a stones, gold, paper notes, whatever it is now, our brain's just not wired who understand it and we add weird emotions to it? Is it our childhood upbringing? Is it the media? What causes us to be all maybe slightly messed up with our emotions of money?
Bob Wheeler:
I mean, it might be all of that, but unfortunately, and I'm not blaming parents here. I'm not blaming the parents, but we are part of our upbringing. A lot of our decisions, a lot of our beliefs, a lot of our rules got formed when we were four or five and six years old. If we were shamed about money, if we watched our parents fight about money, if we were told we were greedy or if we were generous, we started to take all that on at four, five and six, and then we never update the information. We just keep working with it as we go into adulthood. We're still operating with that information we got at four or five and six, which may or may not be helpful or true.
Understanding Our Subconscious Beliefs About Money · [03:00]
Will Barron:
Is this because it's all based in our subconscious? Because it seems like if someone has an issue of money, and I'm thinking of a specific friend of mine, right, who is just a, excuse, my French, just a cheap bastard, right? He doesn't want to spend money. He doesn't really want to earn money. If there's money and he is bank account, he wants to get rid of it as quick as possible. Now, I know his mom. I know his family. They're all very like, and this is painting a broad brush strokes here, but they're all hippies, right? They're all from a place of, which might be healthy, of, “Hey, I value experiences and friendships as opposed to nice cars, big houses.” But in the modern world, some of that doesn't quite work because you need a place to live, you need a way to fund your lifestyle kind of thing. So he's a little bit messed up, but he doesn't see it, right?
Bob Wheeler:
Right.
Will Barron:
I see it from afar. He doesn't see it, understand it. I try to have these conversations with him. I need to hire you Bob to come in and sort some of this out for, but do we have these beliefs and are they stored in our subconscious? Is it difficult for us to see them internally? Or if we're that messed up on it at some point, are we just choosing to live this way?
Bob Wheeler:
Yeah, well, we are choosing to live that way until we decide we want to take a look at it. It is certainly not fun. I don't have people running with joy and glee to explore their money past with me or to look at their debt or to look at their spending habits. It's not something we get excited about, but we do carry this. We're going around with our comfort level. So maybe if I'm a hippie-type and I'm comfortable with having no bank over draught, then as soon as I get a $1,000 or 10,000 bucks, I got to spend that money and get back to my comfort level. For some people that might be $50,000 or $100,000 or $2,000. It's different for all of us, but we tend to go back to what comfortable. It's not comfortable looking at the money choices that we've done that haven't served us.
The Healthy Money Mindset and How You Can Adopt It · [05:10]
Will Barron:
Is it possible, and I've heard this band around, you better to tell me if, if there's any evidence to support this, but I've heard this banded round that most people will earn plus or minus 20% of what their parents did via the conditioning of their parents or the upbringing or the people that they, I guess, if you are minted, you'd go like to go to a private school. You're spending more time, so those things become normal. And so that's where if you use, I don't know, what would be a metaphor, like a thermostat. Your thermostat would be set at a certain point. If you are beyond that, you want to cool it down. If you're below that you want to heat things back up. Is becoming wealthy as simple as just repositioning that, somehow that thermostat, and then making that your new normal and you're so uncomfortable until you're there that you're going to hustle, you're going to change things, you're going to change your mindsets to make that happen?
Bob Wheeler:
Yeah, absolutely. I think what it is it's not just changing the thermostat so that all of a sudden more money comes in. It's changing the thermostat so that your mindset gets slightly adjusted. If you're in a mindset of spend, spend, spend, spend, and you adjust it to, “Oh, maybe I should save 20%. Oh, maybe I should start investing a little bit more money. I should save for retirement.” It's those types of adjustments where we're shifting our mindset, not necessarily, “Oh yes. I want 10 million more dollars to flow into my bank account.” Certainly that would be nice. It's also, “am I willing to let that happen? Do I deserve it? Am I going to actually let my money start to work for me?” Instead of, “How can I spend my money so I can live in the moment.”
Will Barron:
I'm going to give you a super practical example now of something that I've bought that I feel I don't deserve. It's absolutely ludicrous, right? The audience will hopefully enjoy this as well. I've been watching a bunch of documentaries and reading books on this principle of minimalism, right? I'm not entirely sold that I need to live in a shack with one toothbrush and one pair of clothes. But I interviewed Greg McKeown, he's the author of Essentialism as well. I interviewed him with a while back. He drilled this idea into my head of, less but better. That's what I'm trying to lean into, right?
Bob Wheeler:
Yeah.
Will Barron:
As I say, this example is so, so stupid. I've got a cordless here in the office. I've got a cordless vacuum cleaner and I've got a corded one. I never use the corded one, because it's a pain in the ass, because there's cables everywhere and there's camera equipment everywhere. So I just never use it. The cordless one is just a cheap, crappy thing that doesn't pick up anything, so that's pointless as well. Today I spent 500 quid on the best cordless Dyson that there is right or it's coming tomorrow morning. Immediately, I was like, “Is that too much to spend on a vacuum cleaner?” It doesn't matter, right? I making enough money that that is just so insignificant. It's irrelevant. I wouldn't even notice it coming out my bank account, right?
Bob Wheeler:
Right.
How to Overcome Your Money Guilt · [08:24]
Will Barron:
I still pondered on, “Have I been a sucker buying this cordless vacuum thing from Dyson?” The idea being I'll have that'll do the best of both worlds of the other two and I'll just bin the other two, less stuff in the office, less stuff for me to think about, maintain, all that good stuff. What is the weird feeling that I'm feeling there about this ridiculous purchase? Then perhaps we can scale this up then to actual meaningful purchases that people either are making or holding back in their lives.
Bob Wheeler:
Well, there's probably a bit of guilt there, right? Even though you're making a lot of money, it still doesn't feel, if we're cheap or we're tight with our money or there's a scarcity mindset, who am I to go out and do this thing? There's people out in the world that are hungry. There are people that are trying to get it together and I'm not going to go out and spend all this money on a vacuum cleaner just so I don't have to plug it in.
Will Barron:
Do you know what, Bob? As you say that at me, the thing that comes to my mind, right, and this might be useful for the audience, is so I call my dad every day, right? Mom passed away four or five years ago, so I call every day we have quick chat about stuff. He he ran a small business, so we have intelligent conversations about marketing and all that kind stuff. I'm going to tell him tomorrow that I spent 500 quid on Hoover. He's going to go, “What? Are you crazy?” And so maybe some of the guilt is being somehow tied to this flippant conversation that doesn't mean anything. My dad's not bothered about it really, but I know he is going to take the piss out on me tomorrow when I mention it because he wouldn't spend that much, so maybe is that unravelling some of this further perhaps?
Bob Wheeler:
Yeah, absolutely. Because we also either do things to support our parents. Mom and dad, you're always right. Or we do things in defiance of them. So if you have a great relationship with your dad and now you've done something he wouldn't have done, like maybe you're not a good boy, maybe you're not the good son that you thought you were. And so that may come into play, like I'm still a good guy, even though I didn't follow what you would've done.
Will Barron:
And so this is weird though, right? Because it's meaningless.
Bob Wheeler:
Right.
The Emotions That Dictate Our Relationship with Money · [10:29]
Will Barron:
I don't know if that is true for me, what you just said, unless it's so deep in my subconscious that as an adult or maybe I'm just refusing to believe and agree with that. Maybe that is the case. But why do we have this, why do we form a relationship with money, with objects, with spending things, with death? Why is there emotions tied to what is essentially a very logical thing, right, which is numbers on a screen or pieces of paper in our pocket? Why do we tie emotion to all this? Why am I now feeling embarrassed and guilty about sharing this story on the podcast that thousands of thousands of people are going to see, hear and probably email having a laugh about?
“When it comes to money, we're all judging and we're all getting judged. And so the question is, can we tolerate the judgement?” Bob Wheeler · [11:45]
Bob Wheeler:
Well, here's the thing. We start off early, “Hey, I want that present. I want a bicycle.” “You're greedy. You're a selfish little kid. You don't think of other people. If you get good grades, I'll give you some money. If you misbehave, I'll disinherit you. If you do this, you can buy my love.” And so we, early on, start attaching values to good, bad, evil, greedy, and so now, “Am I going to be greedy if I ask for this, if I ask for too much? Do I ask for just enough? How do I self advocate?” It becomes this whole mind game of, “Am I good enough? Do I deserve to ask for these things or go for it or do I need to apologise so that other people don't judge me?” We're all judging and we're all getting judged. And so can we tolerate the judgement ?
Will Barron:
Do you know what's even funny as I think about this? I'll leave the analogy at this, Bob, cause I'm not sure it's the best analogy that I've ever come up with or analogy, metaphor, wherever this is. I'm going to go back to the house after this from the office. Me Mrs. bought the last Hoover for the house and that's a Dyson, like V8. Well, I've just bought this Dyson V15. I can't wait to show Emily tomorrow that I've bought a way better Hoover for the office than what we've got there. As you said then there's this idea of like comparison, this idea of competition, there's like a different relationship with me Mrs. misses than what I have with me dad. And so this is incredibly com-, this is more, I didn't, I didn't mean to go into the show with this analogy right? But this is, even for someone like myself, who I thought I had some of this nailed, this can go pretty deep, right?
“Here's the funny thing, many people in relationships are in competition. They're actually like, I beat you. I got you. I did better. It's not conscious, but it's amazing how many times I ask couples, are you on the same team or are you trying to beat each other? I just get this blank look.” – Bob Wheeler · [12:41]
Bob Wheeler:
Yeah, absolutely. Here's the funny thing, so many people in relationships are in competition, right? They're actually, I beat you. I got you. I did better. It's not conscious, but it's amazing how many times I ask couples, are you on the same team or are you trying to beat each other? I just get this blank look.
Will Barron:
Me and my Mrs., we have, I'd say we have a healthy element of competitiveness to our relationship, right?
Bob Wheeler:
Yeah.
Will Barron:
The best way I describe it, I think it was the road less travelled, it's Scott Peck. I don't know if you're familiar with that book.
Bob Wheeler:
Yeah, that's a great book.
Will Barron:
Something's stood out to me in that, and this totally sidetracked, but I'll come back to sales in a second. Something that really struck me from that book was this idea of you should choose to be in a relationship as opposed to be in a relationship because the other person fills a whole that you think you have. The reason I bring this up is that I think this translates well to sales. It translates well to your friends, your family. You want to work with customers who value you, being there, as opposed to you solving a problem that's they're so desperate to solve, that they desperately need you because then things get a little bit weird and you get people asking for refunds or being overburdened on your time, especially if you're in a consulting type role.
How to Overcome Your Money Shame · [14:00]
Will Barron:
With that all said, we've used me as an example here. I've looked silly. I'm happy to do that for the audience. Let's imagine that 99% of the audience all have been people who've worked with you directly, Bob, also have these issues, right?
Bob Wheeler:
Yeah.
Will Barron:
How do we solve them? Let's get practical about this. Do we need to sit there on a bed, lay back and have someone go into our, Freudian style, go into our subconscious and unravel all these issues that we had with our parents inadvertently saying money grows on trees or all these other notions about cash? Do we need to go through 25 years of therapy to get back to baseline or is there another way to go about doing this?
Bob Wheeler:
Well, you don't have to spend 25 years exploring this stuff for sure. It does matter that you get a little bit curious about what you've done in the past. For me, when I work with people, whether I work with them directly or I'm just working with somebody and giving them some guidance is to just do some journaling, get out a journal, get out a book and start writing down memories that you remember, what did mom and dad say about money, did I grow up with my grandparents, did I grow up in a culture that honoured money or made it bad and just really start to become aware of what's my money history. You don't need somebody and you have to lay on a couch and spend hours and hate your parents and all that stuff. But it is important to go, “Oh, that's where that comes from.”
Bob Wheeler:
Then start to actually listen to the words you use. I'm amazed at how many people to me and say, “Bob, I'm so broke. I can't afford this. I can't pay these taxes.” Really? You've got three properties that are all making great rental income. You just flew to Europe, for those in America. That's an expense, right? And so there's this story that, “Oh my gosh, I'm such a victim. I'm so poor.” The reality is it's not true. And so the more we can listen to what we're saying and start to realise, “Oh, I'm making different choices other than saving my money. I'm choosing to spend instead of invest.” And so it takes us out of this story.
Bob Wheeler:
The biggest thing for me is, and I'm an accountant, so cost-benefit. What's it costing me to stay in my story? What's the benefit? I don't have to be big. I don't have to succeed. I get to stay small, but maybe at the cost of my soul, maybe.
Positive Behaviors and Attitudes About Money You Absolutely Must Have · [16:23]
Will Barron:
Is there always a benefit? Even if that benefit doesn't serve your long term purpose, is there always a seemingly positive reason behaviour that people have about money?
Bob Wheeler:
Absolutely, and I would say the main one is comfort. I don't have to feel uncomfortable. I don't have to step out of my comfort zone. People can't judge me for doing something different. I don't have to worry about failure. I get to just stay right here and nobody's expecting anything different.
Will Barron:
When going to journal. We're going to investigate our thoughts and beliefs. We're going to eventually, which things like my dad always says, still says it now, “Money doesn't grow on trees,” which I don't take seriously, but maybe there's some deep, dark Freudian elements to that that's sabotaging my success moving forward, right? Perhaps we become aware of some of this. We change the narrative. When that crops up in our mind, we immediately try and focus on the fact that we look for evidence that it to be true. If it's not true, we can discount some of it. We need to understand what the positive reasons are for us having these behaviours, whether that be comfort or we've been rejected in the past, and we don't want to get rejected in the future, whatever it is. Perhaps that gets us back to baseline or perhaps slightly net positive of our beliefs of money.
The Cornerstone of a Positive Money Mindset · [17:45]
Will Barron:
Are there any money, beliefs that we should proactively try and instil in our brains as if we can go through, if we can be our own weird father archetype and programme our own brains or hire a hypnotist or whatever it is, is there anything that we should be programming to ourselves that will enable us to be more successful, invest more and perhaps if people have debts get out of debts and that side of things as well?
Bob Wheeler:
Absolutely, so I would say to be able to spend less than you make, right? Make more than you spend. That is so many of us live beyond our means, and so dialling it back just a little bit and also, which that ties to delayed gratification, learning to experience delayed gratification. If I don't go out and take this little trip for the weekend or go out to the pub and drink a bunch of drinks, I might have that money for the down payment on a rental property, I might be able to make different choices. And so I think those are two things that are really important.
“Look at your spending, do a budget. Budgets are amazing, even though people cringe at them. Budgets give us a lot of information. If we can do that, we can start to actually set life long goals. For example, I want to have this much in savings. I want to have a retirement plan. I want to have a house. I want to have a house in the country, whatever those things are, so that as we are currently spending today, we can ask ourselves, “Is this spending in line with what I say I want for my future?” – Bob Wheeler · [18:50]
Bob Wheeler:
I would also look at your spending, do a budget. Budgets are amazing, even though people cringe at that. Budgets give us a lot of information. If we can do that, we can start to actually set life long goals. I want to have this much in savings. I want to have a retirement. I want to have a house. I want to have a house in the country, whatever those things are, so that as currently spending today, we can ask ourselves, “Is this spending in line with what I say I want for my future?”
Will Barron:
I'm going to be selfish here for a second, because I think this might be useful for myself, right? We got a training academy. To get the training academy, you got to either speak to myself or one of my colleagues. We see if the users, the students are good fit and if they fit our principles and if we can actually help them or not, we won't take cash people that we don't think we can five-six times their take home and the commissions, right? It's somewhat of a formal process.
Will Barron:
One of the questions we ask is how much do you earn right now? How much do you want to earn? Maybe 50%-60% of the time, the potential student will say, “Well, I earn say $5,000 a month from a base of my commissions. I want to earn $7,000.” Some of this is experience for myself, right? Having done well in B2B sales roles and we've had about 2000 people go through our training programme and not every had massive success, but there's a large majority of them have at least some success, if not tremendous success.
Will Barron:
Every time I go, I'm in my brain going $7,000 a month in a complex B2B sales role that they're in the right vehicle. They are just about to get the training and mentoring that they need to have everything that a, from a process standpoint to implement. It's almost like the final step is for them to accept that in that role, they should be earning $300,000 if they put the work in, if they follow the process, and if they can find the one or two points of differentiation in the market and the vibe proposition and things like that, which takes a little bit work and does take efforts. There's no magic pill that we're offering or anything like that.
Will Barron:
But then they still come back and say, “Well.” I'll go, “$7,000, is that your goal? Is that your dream? Is it worth all the stress and the rejection of your sales role to earn that amount?” They'll go, “I understand. $8,000.” I'm like, “No, it needs to be like double that otherwise don't work in sales, go and do an office job, go do something else.” Right?
Bob Wheeler:
Yeah.
Will Barron:
I then not struggle because this is part of the sales process, right? I understand what, I'll tell you what I do. I get them to think where they are, where they want to be, what's stopping it in from one side to the other. Then I frame it as they're the hero and I'm going to guide them from one place to the other. They're Frodo. They're going to get rid of the ring, but I'm, Gandalf who's leading them along and helping them through their journey.
Money Shame and How it’s Preventing You From Making a lot of Money · [21:40]
Will Barron:
Is there anything else I can do to help these individuals just open their mind that if they're in the right role and there's other people, I guess what I'm saying is I try and give them logical evidence. I'm not sure this is the best approach. There's other people in your company earning [inaudible 00:21:54] quid a year. Can you do the same? “I guess so.” There's other people in similar roles, in different companies doing that. There are people working less hours than you earning way more. I can introduce you to this student, this student, this student, there's this testimonial, there's this video. I keep giving them logical reasons to change an emotional feeling about what they believe they can achieve in their career. What else should I doing? The logical side of things seems to work, but is there a better approach to this, Bob?
Bob Wheeler:
I would probably, if I was talking to somebody and they said, “Yeah, I want to do $7,000,” and I really wanted to see them say %25,000. I'd probably say to them, “What's the worst thing about earning five times what you're currently making? What's going to happen. What's going to be so negative about having extra time and being able to pay for things without even thinking about it? What's going to happen when you start to have all this excess money to do things that you've always dreamed about and you have the ability to travel? What are the negatives?”
“If you can actually focus on all the negative things that are going to happen, you'd be surprised at how many negative things people can list out about when something good happens to them.” – Bob Wheeler · [23:18]
Bob Wheeler:
You'll be surprised. A lot of people will start listing out a negative. My parents are going to judge me. My girlfriend's going to judge me. I'm going to have to say no to people that ask me for money, because now everybody's going to say, “Well, Bob's got more money. Will's got more money. Let me hit him up.” I might have to draw boundaries. And so if you can actually focus on what are all the negative things going to happen, you'd be surprised at how many negative things people can list out about when something good happens to them.
How to Overcome the Stigma and the Fear of Making a lot of Money · [23:31]
Will Barron:
Then is it a case of squashing each one of those negatives and then that allows them the bandwidth in their brain to see if it's possible to get to that kind of amount?
Bob Wheeler:
Yeah. I mean, I wouldn't really say like I squash it. What I would do is I would say, “Is that true? In your experience, if you make more money, do your parents hate you? Do people judge you?” Starting to separate. A lot of times I'll have people say to me, “I've got to get to a certain amount of money or my parents will be really disappointed.” I'll say to them, “Would you be willing to ask your parents what's the dollar amount at which point they stop loving you.” They're like, “What?” Well, you're pretty sure that there's a number, so why don't you ask them and see if that in fact is true because my hunch is your parents are going to love you even if you fail in your eyes. But we're working off these premises and these assumptions that aren't necessarily true. And so the more we can get grounded in reality, we can start to let those stories go.
Will Barron:
I love it. Asking that question, “Do you know this to be true? Is there any evidence to support that?” Is there any other, I'm just thinking of very practical for the audience, how they can do this, because we're going to moving onto how the audience can speak to and communicate with someone who's struggling with their own beliefs on money in a second. But is there any evidence that's true? What else did you say? There was a couple of others, Bob, in the like kind of phrases that were mentioned.
Bob Wheeler:
Is it true? Is it yeah, is it true? Is this assumption, like, have I seen this happen to me before? Have I seen it to other people? Really just honing in on what story and what's actually happening.
Money Story: What it is and How it Affects Your Spending Habits · [25:18]
Will Barron:
Got it, got it. Is that the basic premise of all this, that we can whittle it down? What is a story that you're telling yourself and other people have told you versus what is the reality and what evidence do you have to support one or the other?
Bob Wheeler:
Yeah, absolutely. Then am I willing to let it go?
Will Barron:
Sure. What happens if the …
Bob Wheeler:
Or am I going to stay so attached to my story.
Will Barron:
What happens if they're not willing to let it go? What happens if they go, “I quite like being skinned. I quite like being poor. I quite like not taking on all this pressure.” I guess that's almost a positive interaction still, because they can walk away and go, “Oh, I'm choosing to do this.” So maybe they can embrace it and stop moaning about it, right?
“I don't want people walking around being victims of their circumstance. I want them to know that they chose it.” – Bob Wheeler · [26:20]
Bob Wheeler:
Absolutely. I think for me the biggest thing is at least I'm stop being a victim. If I'm coming from a place of, “Oh, this always happens, this always happens. No, I'm choosing it. Yeah, I don't want to do that. I don't want to do the work. I don't want to do these things to get what I want. I'm actually content.” Great, blessings. Go in peace. I'm not here to force everybody to want to have more money or to have a more fulfilling life if they're comfortable. I don't want people walking around being victims of their circumstance. I want them to know that they chose it.
How to Handle Buyers Who’ve Got a Negative Perception About Spending Money · [26:20]
Will Barron:
Amazing stuff. This is really valuable, this episode, Bob. Okay, so let's flip the table slightly. What do, and we've touched on some of this, I'm sure, in the episode so far, but it'd be useful to get more clarity on this specific scenario. What if we are B2B salesperson, we know our product is going to solve a pain point for a potential customer, we know that they've got the budget because it's not their money. Theirs some middle management or a VP level, director level individual within a medium size organisation say.
Will Barron:
Let's well, let's make it real. Sam the salesperson is selling accounting software right into a medium size as organisation. We know that we're really going to help the CFO, the accountants that are going to be using this tool day in, day out. But the CFO that we're chatting with just can't be to give up $30 grand a month of revenue for this tool. They feel weird about it. They feel that they're all old school. They feel like their accountant should be using ledgers. I'm sure that disappeared 20 years ago, right? But they should be doing this in paper. There should be a paper trail. They're not ready to move, even though logically, they know that they should do this. What can we do or how do we approach that kind of conversation from a seller's perspective when we know everything is right, it's just the prospect, the pinch buyer has some weird beliefs about money that perhaps we can help them deal with?
“If you really believe in the product, there's nothing to lose by being willing to give it away for 30 days so they can actually get proof personally and actually feel the difference. So, if we really have something that can change somebody's life, I'm of the belief that you should be willing to lose a little in the short run to make a lot in the long run.” – Bob Wheeler · [28:22]
Bob Wheeler:
Yeah. Well, the first thing I would do is ask them personal questions as to why this feels so uncomfortable spending this kind of money. The numbers support it. Depending on the company, I'm the type of person that would say, “Look, I'm going to put my money where my mouth is. I'll give you 30 days to try this out and you could tell me you hate it or you love it, because I think at the end of 30 days, you're going to discover it's amazing, it's going to be a game changer.” If I really believe in the product, there's nothing to lose by willing to give it away for 30 days, so they can actually get proof personally and be able to go, “Oh my God, I actually feel the difference.” I think a lot of times, if we're just trying to sell snake oil, yeah, maybe we don't want to do that. But if we really have something that can change somebody's life, I'm of the belief, I'm willing to lose a little in the short run to make a lot in the long run.
Free Trial Sales Conversations and How to Make Sure the Buyer Gets the Most Out of Your Product or Service · [28:50]
Will Barron:
Got it, so we are going to give them the evidence, right? We're going to, and then how do we, so let's say that happens. Let's say it's accounting software. Let's say the issue is that this CFO thinks software is free. It's instantly replicatable. We shouldn't be paying $30 grand a month for this. We should be paying $3 grand a month for this. They're not understanding the value. Again, it's this, it's a weird belief that they have about money, as opposed to them not understanding the product that's holding them back. We give them the demo for 30 days. The individual loves it. How do we reengage that conversation? Is it again going, “Well, there's the money here, but there's also the evidence that you've told me that you get a lot of value from this.” How do we approach the conversation knowing that now we've got evidence to show that the individual's going to, the business is going to make money from this, there's going to be a return and investment?
Bob Wheeler:
Well, I mean the first thing I would do before I even give it away for 30 days free is I want to make sure with them, “Are you going to give it a fair shake? Are you just going to do this for 30 days, so you can see if you can get something free or are you actually open to, if I can show you where I can save you a lot of money, are you open to moving forward?” Because if they're not, if their mindset is still such that it doesn't matter what you tell me, I'm not going to waste my time. At a certain point, I don't have to save the whole world. I only need to target people that are open to it and actually, they don't have to necessarily see it, but they're open to seeing it through experience.
Bob Wheeler:
I've had people, I have a client who she hired a salesperson to bring business into her practise. It doubled the money. It doubled the money, but she was really upset because the person didn't want to drive to the office and clock in and then drive to the different seminars and the places they were going. And so I said to the client, “This is crazy to me. You're making subst-, you're doubling income.” We're talking, it's a small business, so they went for making $250 to $500,000, but not bad for a three person for sure office.
Will Barron:
Yeah, for sure.
Bob Wheeler:
I said, “So you're telling me, you'd rather give up $250,000 to be right about having them clock in.” The client said, “Yeah.” I went, “Okay, well, there's your answer.” So they let them go. The income dropped. But they're incredibly happy because they're following the rules that they set forth instead of being open to the fact that this person was making money for them, but they weren't doing it in a way that was congruent with the owner. There's nothing I can do to change that mindset, even though I'm just looking at all the lost revenue, going, “This is mind blowing,” but I couldn't change their mind. At a certain point, I'm just going to spend my energy where I can actually do some good.
Will Barron:
Sure, so I work with a bunch of small, I'm really passionate about small business owners, right? I love sales. Sales can be systematised a lot easier then it can be to create a startup or a small business. But I love encouraging small business owners, and so I do loads of both free and pay consulting with them. Something that I see time and time again, because a lot of people will get in touch with me when they've hired one or two sales people and they want to ramp up the sales people's performance. What I see so often is the sales person will start killing it, right?
Bob Wheeler:
Yeah.
This is How Business Owners Intentionally Sabotage High-Performing Salespeople · [32:20]
Will Barron:
They'll be getting close to the take home of the owner of the business. Then the owner of the business starts feeling weird about it, and they try and sabotage the salesperson rather than just give them unlimited, uncapped commissions. As long as it's hugely profitable, what are you doing? But they get jealous. They get weird. It gets all icky. Sales people typically can feel that, and they're going, “Why am I sacrificing?” Because obviously the business owners getting equity, the business and the business growth and all that side of things as well. The sales person's going, “I'm not getting any of that stuff and I'm doing all the job of, doing half the job of a founder, doing all the selling. I'm the one looking silly. They just swoop in at perhaps at the end of the deal and put in a phone call or two.” It's just such a common phenomenon that I found with small business owners. I'm not crazy, am I? That is bizarre, isn't it?
Bob Wheeler:
Yeah. It happens a lot. I've actually had a few salespeople on my podcast and we've talked about this where all of a sudden they start killing it and the owner will come back and say, “Well, we're going to have to change the commission structure. You're just doing too well.” What do you mean? You worked it out logically. You're going to make X amount of money if they do this and they're doing it. They're doing it exponentially. Why now do you have to say, “Well, you have to make less because even though you followed all the rules, I don't feel good about it.” It's so counterintuitive. It's so counterintuitive.
Will Barron:
That leads me on to me …
Bob Wheeler:
It happens.
How to Get Out of Your Comfort Zone and Start Making More Money · [34:00]
Will Barron:
… me final question, Bob. We might have already answered this, so I'll ask you again for the is value in recovering this if we need to. What does a sales person need to do if they, and I know loads of salespeople have been there, they're successful, they're doing a $100 grand take home, $200 grand take home, half a million take home, but they've been stuck there for four or five years. Colleagues have come and gone, done better or worse. The marketplace, there's data, there's evidence that shows that the marketplace is there for them to make more cash, but and maybe they are comfortable, but they don't want to be comfortable, right?
Bob Wheeler:
Right.
Will Barron:
Do they need to start asking questions, like what are the negatives, if I earn $600 grand and start to …
Bob Wheeler:
Yeah.
Will Barron:
… reverse engineer this? Is there any other questions that they should be asking themselves to not make them hustle hard or a change process, but to open their mindset that other people are earning more, and so they've got the same opportunity as anyone else?
Bob Wheeler:
Yeah, absolutely. I would start off with the question of what are my limiting beliefs about making more money. I would really start to look at, “Am I comfortable? What would it take to go to the next level? Why do I believe I can't get there? Is it because I don't have the skillset, I don't have the communication skills?” There might be something there I've watched people move away from jobs because the next level required something that they didn't think they had.
Bob Wheeler:
And so I would really, again, get curious. I think, whether you're looking at your own beliefs or you're looking at your potential customer's beliefs getting curious and creating a relationship, instead of just looking at it transactionally is the key. Whether we're talking to ourselves and going “Well, that's stupid. Putting 10% away is just makes sense.” Well, if I don't understand relationally why I'm so opposed to that, I'm not going to do it. The same thing when I'm trying to sell something, if the person thinks I'm just trying to make a sale, there's no reason to trust me because I'm just trying to make a sale. But if I actually get to know them, know that they actually like soccer or that they like to go fishing, or I actually get to know them as a person, there might be some room for, “Oh, this is actually a relationship.” And then we can let it grow.
Bob Wheeler:
But until we get aware of what's that limiting belief, why am I afraid to take it to the next level, you're not going to go anywhere. I know for me, I had to struggle with, “Well, it's too easy for me.” I felt guilty charging what I charge because I'm like, “I would do it for free.” I literally would. I like doing accounting. I'm a weirdo. I like doing tax stuff. It seemed too easy, so how can I actually pay lots of money for this when other people struggle really hard to be able to do what I do? It's this, yeah, it's, “How can I be paid that kind of money?” I don't feel so guilty now, but it was very hard raising my rates and saying, “No, this is what I want.” And feeling comfortable being able to say, “This is what it is and if it doesn't work for you, I'm totally cool with it, but I'm not going to change my parameters to make you feel better about yourself when I know this is a solid working model.”
Will Barron:
I had a mentor help me with this maybe six months ago, from previous to when we were recording the show now, Bob. They just sat me down with our profit and loss and with all the content that we were producing and the expenses that come along with it. They're like, “What content drives profit?” Not what content do you enjoy doing? Not what content does the team enjoy? What content makes money? It's the Salesman podcast. It's selling made simple, the solo version of this podcast, right? It's the audio podcast. That just slowly, gradually goes up in time, and it's the YouTube videos. We're also doing Instagram, blog posts, in the midst of writing a book, all this, just tonnes mess around with TikTok, all this kind of crap, right? He was just like, “Why are you doing it?”
Why The Success Mindset is Not All About Hustle, Hustle, Hustle · [38:00]
Will Barron:
It turns out after going back and forth in a few conversations, I had a similar realisation that what you did. I was like, “Well, it'd be too simple if all I had to do was a couple of podcasts and a couple of videos a week and jump out and do some mentoring calls with our students over at Selling Made Simple Academy.” It's like, “It'd be too easy.” I didn't feel like I was putting in enough effort to …
Bob Wheeler:
Right.
Will Barron:
… for, I guess the business growth, but also my take home pay as well. I was like, “Well, this is like a really nice little business to run,” if that's all I did, I didn't do all the other crap on top of it that I didn't like. I broached it with the team. The team were like, “Yeah, are you stupid? Of course, it's a waste of time and energy. We don't want to do all this extra crap as well. We want to just do the core content that we can produce high quality content that leads to phone calls getting booked and deals getting made on the back of it.” I was just like, “Why did no one tell me this?” They were happy just to do the work. We had some internal conversations. We had to set some vision and a mission and some principles for the company and get more defined. But it all stemmed from my weird belief pattern of I've got to hustle. I've got to work hard. I've got to stay ahead of everyone in this space.
Bob Wheeler:
Right.
Will Barron:
I feel like we've got, with our content, we've got a bit of a lead versus some of the competitors, whether it's production quality or the openness of these conversations versus other sales podcast that out there. The reality was that we don't need a lead. We're so different to everyone else out there. People buy the training product because they want to buy from me. As long as I'm still at the company, it's going to sell and do well. Again, it all stemmed from this weird belief that I need to work really hard, really long hours and make loads of sacrifices to make progress, which to be fair, may have been true five years ago, six years when I started the business, you don't know what's going on. But right now, this, this one business coach is like, “You're just crazy. You're just burying yourself with work and stress and pressure for no reason.” How common is that kind of experience [inaudible 00:40:09], Bob?
“Success doesn't have to be complicated. We culturally have decided we've got to have some suffering. It's ridiculous because it's all self-imposed. We've bought into the system that believes success has got to be painful. It can't be too easy, otherwise it's just not right.” – Bob Wheeler · [40:33]
Bob Wheeler:
Well, that's super common. We all have a belief of, we've got to put in 40 hours a week at least. It's got to be a little painful. It can't just be fun and easy. What are you talking about? Everybody has slaved. There's a history of you've got to really work hard. Yeah, it may be that sometimes you have to work hard. It doesn't mean you can't also relax and have a little fun. It doesn't all have to be complicated. We culturally have decided we've got to have some suffering. It's ridiculous because it's all self-imposed. We've bought into the system that said, “It's got to be painful. It can't be too easy because it's just not right.”
Will Barron:
Yeah, and I think we need to do what you've just suggested as well. If you can sit there in front of an Excel spreadsheet or some accounting software for hours on end and the time flies by, you are clearly perfectly wired for that, learning the latest ups and downs and this and thats with accounting and finance. I hate it. I have an external accountant, because I just don't care. All I want to see is the number in the bank account and then I've not got a big tax bill. I want to minimise that tax bill the best I can at the end of the year. I pay handsomely for not to look at taxes and accountants and PNLs or anything else throughout the year, right?
Achieving Success Can Be Easy. Hardships Are All In Your Head · [41:34]
Will Barron:
But I'm perfectly suited to doing these podcast interviews, for doing mentoring at the training programme and for building selling frameworks. I think if you can find the place that you're wired to be, and you can adjust some of this, I'm sure, and you can hustle and you get through certain elements of this and you create, if you've got to breakthrough into management, if you've got to go from one type of sales to another type of sales, if you're in the right place, things can be simple, can't they? Things can be easy.
Bob Wheeler:
Absolutely. I mean, love what you do, I think is so important and not everybody always has that option. But yeah, if I hated accounting, it'd be painful. It would definitely be painful. But I love it. I'm glad that other people hate it.
Will Barron:
Yep.
Bob Wheeler:
Because it gives me lots of work.
Parting Thoughts · [42:19]
Will Barron:
Yep. Well, that's the albatross, that's the market. That's what I'm all here and hopefully that's valuable for the audience as well. With that, Bob, tell us about The Money Nerve the book and tell us about the podcast as well, where we can find out more about you.
Bob Wheeler:
Absolutely, so The Money Nerve, it's a book I wrote, The Money Nerve, because emotions around money are in our body. People have heart attacks, people jump off of buildings, people get really excited when they get a bonus check, they didn't expect, so The Money Nerve, not nerd, I'm a nerd. Then we have a podcast called Money You Should Ask where we talk with people from all walks of life, a lot of highly successful people that talk about their failures and about their own money journeys so that people can actually hear other stories and realise it's possible for me too, instead of staying small and saying, “I'm afraid to take the next step because I'm the only exception of the role where I can't have what I want.” And so check us out. We're happy to work with people. We've got great resources. We just want people to have the fullest life that they want to have if they so choose.
Will Barron:
Amazing stuff. Well, to the book, the podcast, your website, everything else over in the show notes of this episode over salesman.org. With that Bob, genuinely mate, really, I'm going to use this question in the next lot of sales calls that we do, so anyone who's listening to this show will be laughing the head off if they try and join our training programme and I quiz them on some of this. But I appreciate your insights, mate. I thank you for joining us again on the Salesman podcast.
The Psychology of Selling: 5 Steps to Selling that Actually Work
Mar 17, 2022
One of the most impactful realizations I made early on in sales is that closing deals isn’t just about the numbers. You also need to tap into the psychology of your prospect and get buy-in on a fundamental, biological level.
That’s why today we’re looking at the psychology of selling—5 steps to selling that actually work. You’re going to love seeing your close rates skyrocket after incorporating these steps into your pitch.
The Numbers Objection
How many times during a sales call have you heard, “Let me check the numbers and get back to you.” Or “The numbers just don’t work on our end.”
Numbers, numbers, numbers—most reps think closing sales in the B2B biz all comes down to the numbers. Does your product make logical sense for the buyer?
What a lot of sales professionals miss out on though is the emotional aspect of a deal. Sure, there’s still a big place for logic in sales. But when it comes down to it, we make decisions based on emotions. President and CEO of Whetstone Adrian Davis broke it down for me like this in our interview:
“Fundamentally, we make decisions emotionally, and if all we're doing is spouting features and benefits, we're really engaging the logical part of the brain. The logical part of the brain does not make decisions. It analyses and captures information to weigh pros and cons, but decisions are made emotionally”
The question is, how can you appeal to the psychology of your buyer to better sell your product? What tactics can you leverage to boost your selling power tenfold? And what framework can you use to consistently and effectively tap into the psychology of sales?
That’s exactly what I’m covering today. This five-step method is based on the Storytelling Framework from inside the Selling Made Simple Academy, but more on that in a sec. Right now, let’s jump into the steps.
1: Help Your Buyer Understand Their Current Reality
The very first step to tapping into the psychology of selling is helping your buyer understand their current reality.
What is the biggest problem your prospect faces today? Is it a stall in business growth in recent months? A team not working as efficiently as they should? Have they hit a success roadblock that they just can’t overcome?
Summarize their unique pains and verbally confirm those pains with the buyer. This gives them the opportunity to correct or clarify what you understand as their biggest problem. Beyond that, it also immediately puts you and the buyer on the same team—you are both trying to solve that problem. And you’re also scoring points for showing you understand what they’re going through.
2: Make Them Feel the Pain of That Reality
Next up is making them feel the pain of that current reality.
This step is also known as “agitating” the pain in copywriting terms. And it’s an essential step to engaging the emotions of the prospect.
So ask yourself—what are the consequences of this pain? Who do they look stupid in front of because of that pain or problem? Who is judging them? And what’s really, truly on the line if that problem goes unsolved?
Acknowledge these consequences with the buyer. Bring them up. And let them know you understand the stakes of the decision.
And don’t just stick to monetary consequences here. Reputation, career advancement, bragging rights, and much more besides money are motivating factors for making business decisions too.
Now that you’ve identified and agitated the pain points, it’s time to move on to step #3…
3: Outline What’s Stopping Them From Moving Forward
Outlining the current barriers that are stopping them from moving forward.
In most cases, these barriers fall into one or more of five specific categories. Step #3 involves pointing out which of these barriers your buyer is currently facing.
I go into greater detail about these five forces in the Storytelling Framework from the Selling Made Simple Academy. But for now, the five barriers are:
A) Selection Overwhelm
Selection overwhelm. The buyer has a problem and knows there are solutions. But there are too many choices. And it’s tough to know which is the best. This is a great opportunity for you to remind the buyer of your unique value proposition.
B) Confirmation Bias
Confirmation bias. This is the mind’s tendency to stick to our previous decisions and defend them wholeheartedly. Pointing out this bias alone is enough to make a buyer more seriously consider switching solutions.
C) Blowback Risk
Is your buyer afraid of looking like an idiot after switching to a new solution that doesn’t work out? You can address this success blocker in particular by pointing to your brand’s reputation and success stories.
D) Initial Cost of Change
Initial cost of change. Is your buyer being held back by the thought of fighting for the budget or spending the time needed to implement your product? This blocker is best dealt with by providing your prospect with the resources they need to reduce those costs of change. Onboarding support, cost analyses, C-suite targeted product breakdowns, and more can all make your buyer’s job much easier.
E) The Buyer Is Lost
The buyer is downright lost. In the complicated world of B2B buying, knowing which solution is right for their problem is confusing. And that’s why they’re looking for help. For a guide. For someone that can simplify the process for them and tell them exactly what they need to know to make the right decision.
4: Paint a Picture of the Place They Want to Be
Painting a picture of the place they want to be.
At this stage, we want to show the buyer what their life could be like once they solve their problem. The goal here is to generate enthusiasm and connect a solution—your solution—to an easier, happier life.
Now, you want to be specific here. Can they achieve or outperform their professional goals? Will their stress levels drop? Are they finally recognized by the higher-ups?
This is a powerful step because humans aren’t great at envisioning the future. As Joey Coleman of Design Symphony put it:
“They can see the present, they can see the past, but they really struggle to see the future… That's why I think that salespeople have an opportunity, and I would dare say maybe even a responsibility, to preview the future for their customers that their customers aren't going to be able to envision on their own.”
Once you’ve illuminated their future selves, it’s time for the final step…
5: Build the Reality Bridge
Remember when I talked about the buyer being lost and needing a guide? Someone to show them the way?
Well now is the time you connect the dots. It’s you that can bridge the gap across their success blockers. It’s you that can help them achieve their goals. It’s you that can ensure implementing your solution goes seamlessly.
And it’s you that can take them from where they’re at now—with all their pains and problems—and give them what they need to be the less-stressed, more successful versions of themselves they imagined earlier.
All they need to do is sign.
And if you’ve followed the previous steps correctly, they’ll be asking for a pen in no time.
Summary
That’s it for leveraging the psychology of selling! See, pretty easy, isn’t it? Just…
Help Them Understand Their Current Reality
Make Them Feel the Pain of That Reality
Outline What’s Stopping Them From Moving Forward
Paint a Picture of the Place They Want to Be
Build the Reality Bridge
That’s all it takes to tap into the psychology of selling. When you can appeal both to the logic and emotion of your buyer, nothing will be able to stop you from crushing it out there, I promise.
Why "Covert Contracts" Kill Your Sales | Salesman Podcast
Mar 16, 2022
In this episode of the Salesman Podcast, Dr. Robert Glover explains what a covert contract is and why “nice guy syndrome” is killing your ability to get deals done.
Robert, an entrepreneur, writer, coach, public speaker and the author of three bestselling books. He is also recognized as the leading authority on tackling the “Nice Guy Syndrome”.
You'll learn:
Sponsored by:
Free SalesCode assessment
Learn your strengths and weaknesses in an instant. Taken by over 10,000+ of your competitors. Don't get left behind.
Take the free assessment
Featured on this episode:
Host - Will Barron
Founder of Salesman.org
Guest - Dr. Robert Glover
Best-Selling Author and Psychology Guru
Hi, my name is Will, and welcome to today's episode of the Salesman Podcast. On today's episode, we're going to be talking how covert contracts kill your sales effectiveness and today's guest is Dr. Robert Glover. Robert is a entrepreneur, writer, coach, and public speaker, and is the author of three bestselling books. Robert is recognised as the leading authority on nice guy syndrome, which I'm sure we're going to cover in this episode and with that, Robert, welcome to the show.
Dr. Robert Glover:
Well, thank you for the invitation.
The Recovering Nice Guy · [00:36]
Will Barron:
You more than welcome, sir. Just before we click record, I've read all your books. I'm a huge fan. Is there a way to describe someone who was a nice guy, who had nice guy syndrome and now no longer, well, hopefully no longer suffers for it. You can diagnose me in this episode mate and give me some feedback. Is there a way to refer to someone who is through some of these pain points?
Dr. Robert Glover:
Well, I refer to myself as a recovering nice guy because I started working on this stuff in myself before I knew it was nice guy syndrome, about 25 years ago. And what's interesting to me is that layers keep peeling off of this whole nice guy thing and mine show up mostly in relationship, but I see it in work and everywhere else as well. So what I found about any, I believe nice guy syndrome, a lot of it is due to maybe partly natural temperament and partly due who internalised conditioning in childhood.
Dr. Robert Glover:
So that means is pretty deep into our emotional operating system. So I've noticed that the anxiety or shame I tend to associate with nice guy syndrome still arises from time to time, but I notice it quicker, I can soothe myself, I can take action, I can move forward. So as I refer to myself as a recovering nice guy, if you like that term, you can use it, it just means that you notice this stuff a lot quicker, and it doesn't seem to take control of your life, especially in those unconscious hidden ways that you're not aware of what's driving the bus of your life.
What is The Nice Guy Syndrome and Are You Suffering From It? · [02:01]
Will Barron:
Sure. Okay. So I want to get into covert contracts. I mean, this is really valuable for the salespeople listening to this. I used to do this and put my prospects on a pedestal. I would have covert contracts with these individuals that they didn't know about. We'll touch on that in a second, but we've mentioned nice guy syndrome here. Can you give us a definition of what it is and I guess how we would know. Is there a test? Is there a way to know whether we are afflicted with it myself and the listeners right now?
Dr. Robert Glover:
Yeah. Nice guy syndrome, and I'm going to reference this primarily towards men, because that's what my book was written towards, but it also affects women as well. There's lots of nice girls out there. And my view of the nice guy is that at a very early age, as a person that internalised an inaccurate belief about themselves in the world and that inaccurate belief is that if I want to be loved and liked to get my needs met, I have to become what I think other people want me to be, because I'm not okay just as I am. And I have to hide anything about me that might trigger or get a negative response from other people.
Dr. Robert Glover:
So nice guys then are out there trying to be good, trying to please people, trying to avoid conflict, trying to look like a decent human being, they're generous, they're giving, they're caring and all thinking that will get them loved, it'll make them be liked, it'll help them get their needs met. And that's what will tee up into the covert contracts that you mentioned.
Covert Contracts: The Relationship Killer · [03:40]
Will Barron:
Sure. And the audience will be going, “Okay.” I get tonnes of negative responses from potential customers all day every day. Now hopefully it shouldn't be as dire as that, if you're selling the right product to the right person, but salespeople are getting rejected and conflict is part of sales. We need to negotiate, we need to balance value, we need to adjust our offerings based on price, we need to go by and forth. So conflict in a positive sense as in there'll be conflict with a positive outcome is part of sales as well. So hopefully there's a couple of 10,000 sales people listening right now who are nodding, along as we go through this Robert. Can you give us a definition then of what a covert contract is? Because I think this is like a part of nice guy syndrome, right? But I think this specific slither of it is incredibly important for the audience.
Dr. Robert Glover:
Well, let's tee that up of what the covert contract is, let's see up where, where it came from. And I used to think for many years of my life that, oh, I could never be a salesman, mainly because I hate being rejected. I want everybody to like me. I want everybody to have a positive response to me. I don't know how people get up every day and get rejected time, after time, after time. Now, ironically, these days when people ask me what I do, my doctorate is in marriage and family therapy, but I'm not in private practise anymore. I don't necessarily do marriage and family therapy anymore. I've written some books. I'm an online university, I do consultation, I lead seminars and workshops, but if I have to tell them, if I'm to boil it all down, I'm an online marketer.
“Most of the nice guy syndrome is emotional beliefs we internalised at a very young age, maybe three weeks old, three months old, three years old.” – Dr. Robert Glover · [05:40]
Dr. Robert Glover:
And here I am being a salesman and so backing up to the covert contract and I know a lot of people have told me that's one of the most powerful dynamics they got out of the book, No More Mr. Nice Guy is this concept of covert contracts. And I know it resonated for me. It gives me clarity of certain unconscious patterns in my life that don't serve me and don't help me get what I want, but to back it up, a lot of the people I work with as children and again, most of the nice guy syndrome is emotional beliefs we internalised at a very young age, maybe three weeks old, three months old, three years old. Before our rational thinking mind was online, our survival brain was working, our amygdala, the fight flight freeze, part of our really old ancient brain. And this part of the brain controls just life functioning, heart rate, breathing.
Dr. Robert Glover:
And it keeps us alive. And that was the most evolved part of our brain online when we were born. And it stores up emotional memory of early experiences. Now, not in words, not in pictures, but just in emotion. So it's really very primal inside of us. So at a very early age, a lot of children for one reason or another, before they were thinking about it rationally internalised the belief I'm bad for having needs or is wrong for me to have needs or my needs put burden on other people or everybody else's needs are more important than mine or other people's needs come before mine. And these are all emotional belief systems that we then later put words to or create stories for and then start manifesting in our life. Now he here is the hitch, the problem. We all have needs and we have to get our needs met.
Dr. Robert Glover:
And when we were little children, we were completely and entirely dependent on the big people in our lives, our parents, our caregivers, to recognise our needs and to meet those in a timely judicious and hopefully consistent way. Now there's a great book out there, been around for a long time called The Road Less Travelled by Dr. M. Scott Peck. I've been told it's the best selling self-help book of all time. And he talks in there about when parents are meeting their own needs, are then attentive to their children's needs and respond to those needs in timely and judicious ways. And I add consistent to that, a child emotionally internalises the following beliefs about themselves. I'm valuable and lovable, my needs are important and the world is like my family, meaning, hey, everybody out there's going to value me and want to help me get my needs met just like it happened in my family.
Dr. Robert Glover:
Now, if our parents were not attentive and did not respond to our needs in timely judicious and consistent ways, we internalise emotionally opposite beliefs. I'm not that important, I'm not valuable, I'm not lovable, my needs aren't important and the world's going to be just like my family. Nobody else is going to care about my needs either. Now again, we all have needs. We got to eat, we got to sleep, we need love, we need physical contact, we need sex, we need adventure, we need stimulation. Maslow came up with the whole hierarchy of needs that we have. So we have needs. So how do we get the needs met when we believe we're bad for having needs or that other people are going to get angry at us for having needs or that other people's needs are more important than ours? And so we have to do it in a secretive covert kind of way.
Dr. Robert Glover:
And that's the covert contracts and there are three of them. And I've really even honed these down further than what I wrote about in the book. But the three basic covert contracts of the nice guy or nice girl syndrome are number one. If I'm good, I will be liked and loved. So if I'm a good person if I'm generous, I'm caring, if I help people, I'll be liked and loved second. And this is really a really powerful one, and probably a lot of the salespeople listening will recognise it, if I meet other people's needs without them having to ask, then they will meet my needs without me having to ask. Now, of course it shows up in relationship, it shows up to strangers, it shows up in the workplace.
Dr. Robert Glover:
We mind read for other people, we anticipate their needs, we try to do nice things, we build rapport, we do whatever it is we think we need to do so that they will inclined to read our minds and give us what we need without us ever having to ask, because we feel like that would make us a bad person. Now, again, I assume most salespeople have gotten over that to some degree and learned to make a close because if there is no close, there is no sale. And we can't wait for the other person to close the deal. And then the third covert contract is that if I do everything right, I will have a smooth problem free life. And of course this world is not smooth and problem free. We're living in a time of pandemic. You know. There's always chaos and business and sales is not and problem free.
“In a nutshell, these are the three covert contracts. If I'm good, I'll be liked and loved. Number two, if I meet other people's needs without them having to ask, they will meet my needs without me having to ask. And number three, if I do everything right, nothing will ever go wrong. I'll have a smooth problem free life” – Dr. Robert Glover · [11:17]
Dr. Robert Glover:
Like you said, there's negotiation, there's conflict, there's dealing with customers, there's dealing with your sales manager, your company gives you, okay, here's the formula in which we'll compensate you for your sales. And then you go out and kick ass and you do so damn well at it, the company goes, “We're going to revise that compensation schedule.” And all of a sudden, you're not making as much money. You go, “What the fuck? That's not fair. It shouldn't happen that way.” But that is life. We think I was doing it right. Everything should keep going the way I expected it to. So those in a nutshell are the three core over contracts. If I'm good, I'll be liked and loved. If I meet other people's needs without them having to ask, they will meet my needs without me having to ask. And number three, if I do everything right, nothing will ever go wrong. I'll have a smooth problem free life
Will Barron:
As someone who's fell into this, Robert, right? And then now interviewed 800 odd people, trained thousands of salespeople, done thousands of consulting calls with salespeople and sales leadership, it's now intently obvious to me that we live in a world of evidence that none of that is true. Almost the opposite of this is true, almost verbatim, right? Of bad people have success, which not all the time, but there was evidence of that out that you could see that in many places, this idea, and I love the way that you say this one of, if I meet the needs of other people without asking, they'll meet my needs without asking, and then you add the layer on top of well, if they can read your mind. So that makes that obvious. There's no logic behind that whatsoever.
Will Barron:
Even like my partner, Emily right? She knows me much better than probably anyone other than maybe my dad. Neither then to know what I'm thinking about most of the time, it's more obvious is that Emily doesn't know what I'm thinking about the random strangers that I'm prospecting or trying to do business with. So there seems to be a tonne of evidence there as well. And then if you do everything right, you have a smooth life, as soon as you get a layer deep in into that, and you look at some of the evidence, the logic things, we all understand inherently, it's common sense that the world is in flux. There's many things we can't control. Driving on the road, you use that as an example or a metaphor for this of all you could do is stay in your lane and perhaps maybe react to the people around you.
How to Overcome Your Nice Guy Belief System · [13:25]
Will Barron:
Someone could easily just crash into the side of you just because they're having a bad day, they're on their phone or not paying attention. So the evidence of that, it's remarkable to that obviously in hindsight, isn't true, but how can we grow up? And I grew up as a young lad with nice guy syndrome, right? I fell into each of these buckets of covert contracts for decades until I was in my mid twenties when I started to read your book and then uncovered, started doing a bit of work on myself and uncovered some of this, how can we get so far through life? I know thy about 40, 50, 60 year old people listening to this right now are going, “Crap. I wished we would've heard this 20 years ago.”
Dr. Robert Glover:
Yes, I hear that a lot.
Will Barron:
How can we go so far through life with all the evidence that poses the opposite of this is still having these belief systems?
“Everybody has distorted emotional beliefs about themselves and the world because we internalised them when we were immature, dependent, needy, and undeveloped little children, and that's stored in such a deep part of our brain that it influences everything.” – Dr. Robert Glover · [14:49]
Dr. Robert Glover:
That is such a good question. And it makes you wonder. And as I said, these belief systems are recorded in an emotional part of our brain that is wired into our rational brain, our prefrontal cortex, that makes decisions. And you would think that our rational prefrontal cortex would see right through these obviously distorted belief systems, but because they are emotional operating system trumps rational break every time. The unconscious is so powerful and is stored up in our body. I mean, it's deep. And we go through life with these emotional belief systems and everybody has them, not exactly these, but everybody has distorted emotional beliefs about themselves in the world because we internalised them when we were immature, dependent, needy, undeveloped little children, and that's stored in such a deep part of our brain, it influences everything.
Dr. Robert Glover:
Now how these stay embedded is that probably as much do anything through confirmation bias, is that you hear people talk about, “Well, those jerks over there, those bad people, don't be like your dad.” Or don't be like that person that did that thing and you keep thinking, well, I see if I'm good, if I'm just good, that's what people want. The value a because your confirmation bias ties into that. And so we find stories and experiences to confirm what we already emotionally hold to be true even when the majority of what we experience doesn't. I had a PhD in marriage and family therapy at 29 years old. I'm 66 now. I'm in my third marriage. And I often say, I bumbled my way through every relationship I've had.
Dr. Robert Glover:
And I think many of us do mainly because trying to do intimate parabonded long term, lifelong relationships is not in our DNA and there's not a particularly good instruction book for it, but we're all bringing those deep emotional belief systems about ourself and the world into any relationship, intimate, family, work, it doesn't matter, and trying to make it work. And therefore, we do tend to bumble our way through a lot of things.
Dr. Robert Glover:
And probably every salesman out there can look back a few years ago when you were operating from some kind of naive and untested, but deeply held emotional beliefs about yourself in the world. And you look back and you go, “Oh man, how did I ever survive? How did I ever make it in sales?” Because hopefully we all bump into something. We have a wake up call, a come to Jesus meeting, a crisis, a major failure, major loss.
Dr. Robert Glover:
It could come from a lot of different things. And it's like, something helps us start reevaluating our emotional belief systems and our view of ourself in the world. For me, it was my second wife said, “I can't take you being a nice guy anymore. Everybody thinks you're such a great guy, but you don't always treat me well. You're passive aggressive, you could be mean, you can say hurtful things, you blow up at me.” And she said, “You've got to get to therapy, because I'm not going to live with this. I'm going to leave.” And I'm thinking, “Wait a minute, you're the one who needs to go to therapy. You're the one who's moody all the time, angry all the time, never available, never wants to have sex anymore, so up and down.” I'm going, “Okay, I'll go to…” I was a nice guy.
Dr. Robert Glover:
“I'll go to therapy. I'll go find out why me being such a nice guy doesn't make you appreciate me more, it doesn't make you want to have sex with me more often.” And luckily I landed into some good places, a good men's programme, good men's group, a couple of good therapists along the way. And quickly started learning that my paradigm, my roadmap of the world that was operating at a deeply emotional level was faulty in so many ways.
“I think it's the fortunate person that has some sort of crisis, some major loss, some illness, some financial crisis, something that wakes us up and we go looking and hopefully find a more accurate paradigm for living in this world in ways that allow us to live up to our potential, get our needs met, have the things that we want.” – Dr. Robert Glover · [18:39]
Dr. Robert Glover:
All the ways I hid myself, hid my needs, hid my wants, never asked for what I wanted, gained to get, avoided conflict, tried to please tried to external approval and validation. All those things just had a bright spotlight put on them and I started seeing where they came from and why they didn't work so well. And I think it's the fortunate person that has some sort of crisis, some big stick up side the head, some major loss, some illness, some financial crisis, something that wakes us up and we go looking and hopefully find a more accurate roadmap, a more accurate paradigm for living in this world in ways that allow us to live up to our potential, get our needs met, have the things that we want.
Will Barron:
Well, hopefully this episode of the show is a big stick whacking people on the head and will do a little bit of that motivation and paradigm changing for them. And with that Robert, I'd like to, if possible, go through each of these three covert contracts and see how it relates specifically to salespeople. I think it's relatively straightforward, but then I've read your book and I've worked on this. So maybe it's not as straightforward. Maybe for someone who's new to this, you can add a layer of common sense to this and speed up the process rather than me just whacking them over the head of a stick. Maybe you can [crosstalk 00:19:46].
Dr. Robert Glover:
We'll tag team them, right? You come out of from that side of the stick, I'll come from that side of the stick.
You Are Worthy of Being Liked Regardless of Whether or Not You’re a Good Person · [19:52]
Will Barron:
Okay, mate. So this first one, If I'm good, I'll be liked and loved. Now you are not saying here that the inverse of this is true, that if you are bad, people are going to like you and love you more. Tell me if I'm wrong, what you're saying is you can be liked and loved regardless. You are worth you of being liked and loved regardless if you be yourself. Explain that one for me.
Dr. Robert Glover:
Yeah. Let's take it. Cause they all the covert contracts have many layers to them. And so for example, my profession is mainly working with people and their relationship. So that's usually where I'm talking about covert contracts and for many of the nice guys I worked with that they were told, “Don't be like somebody.” Dad, the other bad men out there whatever. And so we're trying to be different then. So we create this model of what does it mean for me to be good, right? And we're the scorekeepers of that. We have a big scoreboard here in our home or in our office where we go, “Look, I helped that person out. Look, I did that for them. Look, I sacrificed myself to make that easier for them. Yeah. I was willing to give that up. I was willing to work that extra hours. I was willing to blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.”
Dr. Robert Glover:
And we think that makes us good. Now, all the covert contracts are an if then proposition. And one thing I didn't say is that usually we're unaware of the covert contract is covert and the everybody else out there is completely unaware of the covert contract. So where I see it a lot, for example, like with single men, they go, “I'm a good guy. I'm not like the jerks I hear women complain about. I do this, I do that. And then I go out and they don't even notice me. I don't even exist. They ignore me. Or they just put me in the friend zone and don't want to be my girlfriend, don't want to have sex with me.”
“Nice guys are typically terrible receivers. We don't give to ourselves very well, we give to everybody else first, and we don't accept other people giving to us very well.” – Dr. Robert Glover · [22:26]
Dr. Robert Glover:
Or married men will say, “I do this for my wife. I do that for my wife. I treat her better than her ex, I'm raising her kids, I do this.” And go, “But she's still upset all the time and never in a good mood and never wants to have sex.” And so there's this, I've done this, this should come back to me, and it ties into yes, a sense of deserving or worthy, but paradoxically, we don't believe we're worthy or deserving because here is one of the core flaws in the thinking. It's not really thinking. It's more of an emotional of covert contracts, is that nice guys are tip typically terrible receivers. And we don't give to ourself very well, we give to everybody else first, we don't accept other people giving to us very well.
Dr. Robert Glover:
All the while, we're trying to get them to give to us because down to that core emotional belief is I'm bad for having needs, my needs aren't important, people will be angry at me if I have needs, their needs are more important. Excuse me. So I think she's right. Every woman I've had in my life has told me, “Robert, you're difficult to give to.” Okay. When you start hearing messages like that, “Robert, you're…” Your name isn't Robert. They say your name. You're difficult to give to, or I can never do anything for you, that's because it goes against our core belief of ourself and the world. People aren't supposed to be giving to me.
Dr. Robert Glover:
So here's the thing, all the while we're doing this cover contract, if I'm good, you'll like me and love me and you'll sign the contract and you'll appreciate me, and you'll value me and all that stuff, to actually have the good things happen runs contrary to our belief about ourself and the world. So this is a core piece that we do have to go work on that it is okay, not only okay, it's essential that we get our needs met. And for me, that began with me doing good things for me. And an example was really early in my nice guy recovery, my wife and I were both in therapy. And I came to the realisation I was doing a lot of giving to get. And so I went on a one year, 12 month giving moratorium where I quit giving anything to anybody other than when my kids needed things. But I didn't give my wife gifts, I didn't give her mother's date cards, I didn't give her surprises.
Dr. Robert Glover:
And she knew that. So she was in because she didn't like all my covert contracts either. And so for a year, every time I had the impulse, oh my wife would like that or I could get that or that'd be a nice surprise, I had to stop, resist the urge and then I had to do something good for me. Right? That was the hitch. I then had to turn around and do something good for me. Now from that practise of doing that, and I've been doing have for 25 years, I've also learned to start practising asking people for what I want and saying, “Can you do this for me? Can you do this for me?” And then add to that when people offer to do things for me, I've learned to say yes and to let them. And just almost a trivial little example.
Dr. Robert Glover:
My wife is Mexican and she grew up Mexican culture where she likes to do nice things for her man. And she likes to do things with me and she likes to just make my life better, which those are all good things. Right? And so I'll be taking a bag of garbage out from the kitchen, just going out the front door and got to open the front gate, put it out on the street. It's not difficult to take a bag of garbage out and put it on the street. But frequently my wife will say, “Do you need help?” And if I answer that rationally and go, “No, I don't need any help. This is a really simple task.” I'm just taking garbage from the kitchen, opening the front gate, put it on the front sidewalk.
“Practise making your needs a priority and doing good things for yourself. Now, you can't meet all of your own needs by yourself, so you have to surround yourself with people who want to help you get your needs met and you have to be clear with what you would like them to do to help them meet your needs. Don't make them guess.” – Dr. Robert Glover · [26:32]
Dr. Robert Glover:
And so I used to say, “No, no, no, I got it. Don't worry.” Because I didn't want to burden her. Right? There's no reason why she would have to help me carry garbage out. I can. And then I realised, she wanted to help me and I wasn't letting her. And so those were the little cues I had to start picking up on. Let her help me. Say, “Sure, come help me take the garbage out.” And then we got to go take the garbage out together and have a little together time walking the garbage out to the street. But that's an important process, as small and trivial as that might seem is that it is part of how we recondition that emotional operating system. So practise making your needs a priority and doing good things for yourself. Now you can't meet all of your own needs by yourself. So you have to surround yourself with people who want to help you get your needs met and you have to be clear with them, what you would like them to do to help them meet your needs.
“When people are available to help you meet your needs, say yes, give them the opportunity. People find fulfilment in giving to other people. Don't rob other people of that fulfilment of giving to you. Practise saying yes.” – Dr. Robert Glover · [26:51]
Dr. Robert Glover:
Don't make them guess. And number three, when people are available to help you meet your needs, let them say yes. Give them the opportunity. People find fulfilment in giving to other people. Don't rob other people of that fulfilment of giving to you. Practise saying yes. And those three practises have been really powerful in my life to rewire that belief system that I'm bad for having needs or other people don't want to help me meet my needs or other people's needs are more important than me or people have a negative reaction if I have a need or ask for what I want. So that's where I would start with that first covert contract, is us actually working on our own belief system that it is not okay to have needs or to get them met.
Healthy Relationships Are Built When Two People Choose to Be Together · [27:40]
Will Barron:
You mentioned The Road Less Travelled earlier on. One thing that I took away from that book when I maybe I read it like 10 years ago now, was that healthy relationships are when two people choose to be together and are happy to make that choice as opposed to unhealthy relationships. So when someone has a whole missing and the other person fills that a bit of the hole and perhaps vice versa. And it seems like what you're saying there Robert, fits practise of you don't need your wife to come and help you take out the trash. She doesn't need you to accept it, but you choose to do it and she wants to help, so you going to have a nice natter and a chat as you take the bins out. Am I in the right tracks with that?
Dr. Robert Glover:
Yeah. And yeah, of course, well, when I worked as a marriage therapist and I did for 20 something years, couples would come to me and say, “We have this problem and this problem. We want you to help us save our marriage.” And I'd always tell them, “I have no goal of helping you save your marriage. What I will help you do is both grow up and become more mature adults and deal with whatever's getting in the way of you guys having what you want in the rela…” And I said, “Then if you guys decide you like hanging out with each other, you'll keep hanging out with each other. But as you grow into maturity and deal with some of your childhood defence mechanisms, survival mechanisms that are showing up in your relationship, you may decide you don't really like being with each other.”
Dr. Robert Glover:
“That's okay too. Then it'd probably be better that you don't hang out with each other. So trying to save your marriage is not a goal. Let's just help you guys just grow and become more mature. And in the process, if you like hanging out with each other, great, if you don't, great.” And that's a good mantra in anywhere in life and especially in the workplace, because here's the crazy thing. I don't know if it's crazy, but here's, reality is, as I said, I'm mainly trained as a relational therapist and focusing on people's intimate relationships, but just like everybody, co-creates a relationship with a partner that lets them live out their earliest, emotional beliefs, their earliest training and paradigm, we all co-create that, we find a person that lets us use the tools that are in our relationship toolbox that we created when we were three months old, three years old.
Dr. Robert Glover:
Because if we get with people that we can't use those tools, we don't know what to do. And so we invite people into our life to help us co-create really old relationship patterns and our partners doing the same. Now, the thing is we do that in the workplace as well. We find bosses, we find managers, we find companies, we find customers that all help us recreate our earliest life experiences. And here we are using these tools we developed as a kid and covert contracts are a really powerful set of tools in that childhood toolbox. So we get with our boss and our boss is triggering us in this way. So we start trying to manage that by avoiding the conflict or never doing anything that we would upset him or saying what we think he wants to hear or not telling him there's no way we can deliver on that product in the time they said they needed done by.
Dr. Robert Glover:
And so we, “Oh, no.” And then we just keep doing what we've done since childhood. So I believe that, for example, intimate relationships, because of the way they trigger all this really old emotion beliefs, they're really powerful, personal growth machines. I also believe that every relationship we have and work is often just as in a sense, intimate as the person we might live with because we're also recreating really old stuff with them, which means even how we relate to a coworker, our manager, the CEO, a customer, if we do it consciously and use it as an opportunity to grow and deal with our old paradigms, that's a powerful, personal growth machine. And so, for example, I teach guys about dating. I say, “Hey, when you approach dating don't approach dating, you're trying to get a woman to like you, or trying to get a girlfriend, or trying to get a woman to sleep with you, how about you just go out and you're using that experience to just challenge yourself and grow and work on skills and practise saying yes, and practise things you want to practise?”
“I believe, instead of approaching my customer like I’ve got to get them to buy, I’ve got to get them to sign the contract, how about we approach our customers from the point of view of what can I learn from this experience? How can I grow? How can I challenge myself? And the really ironic thing is when I teach men to approach dating in that way, they often quickly become highly successful at attracting women and having good experiences where in the past they weren't.” – Dr. Robert Glover · [32:01]
Dr. Robert Glover:
Hey, we could approach sales in the exact same way. Instead of approaching my customer like I got to get them to buy, I got to get them to sign the contract, how about we approach our customers from the point of view, what can I learn from this experience? How can I grow? How can I challenge myself? How can I look at my covert contracts and stay aware when they tend to come up? And the really ironic thing is when I teach men to approach dating in that way, they often quickly become highly successful at attracting women and having good experiences where in the past they weren't.
Dr. Robert Glover:
I think the same thing could happen in sales and business as well is when we let go of any attachment outcome, just say, “Hey, I'm just going to lean into something here. I'm going to practise something here. I'm going to get out of my comfort zone here. I'm going to watch how my anxiety comes up here, how my fears come up here and I'm just going to soothe myself and do it anyway and see what happens.” And what a beautiful template to take into how we interact with coworkers managers, customers.
Will Barron:
I'm glad you mentioned this earlier on, and you brought it back perfectly because I wrote it down a big letter there. I wanted to bring this back up, Robert, this paradox of when you don't soak up to your customers, when you treat them like a peer as opposed to someone who's got the wallets that's going to buy you that new car or whatever it is that you're aiming towards of your commissions and that side of things, when you don't stink of what we call commission breath, where you desperate to get a deal done.
Dr. Robert Glover:
Commission breath. I love that.
Will Barron:
Is that a new one for you?
“People can smell desperation. And the other thing I've been saying for years is our anxiety is contagious. If you're approaching a sale with a strong attachment to the outcome, like Buddha said, “Attachments are the cause of all suffering.” I add, it’s also the cause of all anxiety. So if you go into a sale like, “I’ve got to get this sale. I got to get them to sign. I’ve got to make it happen.” Not only are you going to suffer, your anxiety level will go up. And when your anxiety level goes up, you actually become less effective and your customer will sense your state of anxiety. They will then feel anxiety, not knowing why, and when people feel anxious, they don't want to sign on the dotted line.” – Dr. Robert Glover · [33:44]
Dr. Robert Glover:
Well, there's the same kind of terms in the dating world that you stink of desperation and women customers doesn't matter. Doesn't matter the context, people can smell desperation. And the other thing is, I've been saying for years, our anxiety is contagious. If you're approaching a sale with a strong attachment outcome, the Buddha said, “Attachments are cause of all suffering.” I add is also the cause of all anxiety. So if you go, “I got to get this sale. I got to get them to sign. I got to make it happen.” Not only are you going to suffer, your anxiety level will go up. And when your anxiety level goes up, you actually become less effective and your customer will sense your state of anxiety. They will then feel anxiety, not know why, and when people feel anxious, they don't want to sign on the dotted line.
Will Barron:
Yeah. We had a Harvard professor come on the show to talk about, it's not quite as simple as this, as Pop Science puts it out there, but this idea of mirror neurons of people have empathy against the emotions that you're feeling and subconsciously they all mirror that back to you. We debugged or debunked some of it, but some of it makes total sense. And especially when a lot of salespeople now doing this over a Zoom call rather than a telephone. A lot of these emotional triggers, a lot of these, the emotional intelligence to the person that you're engaging with, it comes across more over video than a call so it's even more impactful. And you can use it as a tool to push the buyer one way or the other way and not manipulate, but perhaps nudge their emotions.
Will Barron:
If they're having a crappy day, you come up all charming, happy, smiling, and full of good energy. You can nudge their emotions one way or another as well. But I love this idea of this paradox. And it's something that I try really hard for our training, Robert, to drill into the brains of our students, that you're there to provide a service, you're there to help people, if you start your call by going, “Oh, I'm so glad that you managed to speak with me. You found some time in your diary.” Or if you try and book a 30 second call to see if you're a good fit, as opposed to just saying, “Hey, it takes 10, 15 minutes for us to have an adult conversation about this.” You're immediately framing yourself up as bit of a loser in the space, right? If you are truly an expert on your product, your industry, if you truly have insights that are valuable for the customer, then you're going to approach the whole sales process differently.
Will Barron:
And this is what we teach. The analogy that I like to use is if… I don't know, one of the listeners calls me up and goes, “Hey, I've got a stock pick for you. You've got to buy this stock.” I'm going to go, “Okay, I hope you enjoy the show. I'm glad you're a fan.” I'm definitely not going to buy this thing. Warren Buffet calls up, he doesn't even need to have to introduce himself, I'd recognise his voice. And he just goes, “Hey, [inaudible 00:36:22] halfway buying a load of Coca-Cola. You should probably buy it as well.” I've got so much trust at distance in the way he framed the conversation as an expert, without begging me to jump in on the deal with him, I'm immediately going to do it. So that's how I try and set things up. And I love this idea of this paradox.
Will Barron:
And I'm glad you enjoyed the notion of commission breath, but I've got it with salespeople who ring me that they're so desperate to get people on the phone that it puts you off and it's counterintuitive. You've done the hardest bit. You've got the person on the phone, hopefully you've got the right product for the right person at the right time. And then you just [inaudible 00:36:56] the whole thing. Just the words you use, the framing of the conversation and even the language that's pre or post conversation as well to follow up. So with that said, I think that's relatively easy for the audience to understand. It's something that they know they've got to do. And maybe there's a confidence element to this, maybe there's a mindset shift they need to implement, but this final covert contract of if I do everything right, I'm going to… I'm paraphrasing it slightly what you said earlier.
Be Comfortable with Life Getting Uncomfortable · [37:24]
Will Barron:
If I do everything right, I'm going to have a smooth and simple life. This is something that I think I still struggle with a little bit, because I know logically that's not true. I've got a degree in chemistry. I understand entropy. I understand chaos, right? I've read books on chaos theory, game theory, all these kind of things were like, it's demonstratable even just how irrational humans are. You know what I mean?
Will Barron:
And you're surrounded by billions of people on the planet, nevermind the environment and everything else that's shifted and constantly influx. But how do we… I feel like I've yet to accept this. I feel like I can just earn a little bit more money, I can buy a house a little bit further away from people and I can do this and I can do that. And I can try and mitigate some of the risks and the potential pains of life. How do I, or am I on the right tracker of how do I get to a point where I can flip a switch and be like, “Okay, I'm comfortable that life is uncomfortable.”
Dr. Robert Glover:
That's such a good question. I'm smiling through all of it, because me too. I'm still thinking how come she got mad at me? I did everything right. I didn't do anything wrong. She's mad at me. Or how come this… I bought this house here in Mexico, five and a half years ago. And I love my home. I'm in my home office right now. And I love it, got a swimming pool. It's just great. And Mexico's noisy. There's a bar across the street that three nights a week plays really bad live music till two in the morning. And it's like, “That shouldn't happen. I don't want that happening.” Dogs bark, places I've lived before make go, your rooster's crowing at two in the morning, neighbours playing their music loud.
Dr. Robert Glover:
And it's just like, there's this part of me, “That shouldn't be happening.” But I live in Mexico and it does happen. And I've looked at that and I'll get into my… I call it my wishful thinker. The corrupt government here instead of stealing all the money they take should actually come and repair the roads every now and then. And then I go, “Oh, well, that's not going to happen.” Government in Mexico's is corrupt at every level. The government is used to benefit the people in government, not the people being governed, but it's that part of me that says, “It shouldn't be that way. It shouldn't be that way.” And I think for me, it is almost childlike, almost Peter Panish.
Dr. Robert Glover:
It's like hey, everything should be good in this world, everything should work well, everything should always work out, people should always treat each other nicely, people shouldn't be unconscious. And it is funny. My wife and I, we've learned to laugh at this. Early on it was actually a little bit of a conflict between us. My wife grew up eight out of 10 kids in poverty in Guadalajara, Mexico, an alcoholic father, being picked on, abused by family members, neighbours, family steals from family, neighbours steal from neighbours. That's just her worldview. And I grew up more of a white bread, suburban, lived on the suburb of Seattle, Washington. And everybody I grew up with, their dads were Boeing engineers and it is like my world experience is people sometimes go unconscious and do things not thinking about the consequences of it, but I don't think they're evil or bad.
Dr. Robert Glover:
They're just unconscious. My wife thinks no, they're all evil. They're all [foreign language 00:41:16], as she would say, assholes. And so we'd have these arguments while driving, why did that person just cut us off? And she said, “Because they're [foreign language 00:41:24], they're an asshole. And I go, “Well, I think they were just unconscious. They just weren't paying attention.” And we both have kind of learned to laugh at our different worldviews. And I've adopted a little bit more of her worldview that there are bad people out there. There are people out there that consciously and willingly hurt other people and do bad things. And she's actually coming to understand, yeah, sometimes people just aren't paying attention. They're just unconscious. They're not thinking ahead about something or the consequences of their actions.
Dr. Robert Glover:
And so I think growing up is partly accepting, we do live in a world where there's evil, there's chaos, there's hurtful people doing hurtful things to other people. And we live in a world, as you said, just from a physical material point of view, that is ever changing. We have pandemics, we have viruses and the nature of a virus, I mean, viruses are the basis of all life, but yet here we are trying to kill a virus. And because we don't want life to be chaotic. We don't want grandma to die 30 days sooner than she was going to, and I'm not trying to be dismissive. I had a sister-in-law, passed away of COVID a year ago. And so, I mean, this stuff is real and it touches close to home. But the reality is, yeah, we have a worldwide pandemic.
Dr. Robert Glover:
There's been many others in the history of this planet. There'll be many more. And as you watch the panic of peoples, people going, “This shouldn't be happening. This should be fixed right now. We shouldn't have to do this. We shouldn't have to wear masks. We shouldn't have to get vaccinated. We shouldn't have…” And I'm not trying to make a political point of anything about it other than it is still wired into our emotional operating system, life shouldn't be difficult, life shouldn't be hard. And even going back to Scott Peck, first paragraph of the book, The Road Less Travelled, goes something like this, life is difficult. And he says this is a truth. This is an important truth. One of the greatest truths, because once we accept that life is difficult, life ceases to be difficult because we're not fighting against it.
“We need to accept that life is going to be difficult, that life is going to be challenging. And I love the serenity prayer of the 12 Step Programme. “God grant me the serenity to accept the things I can't change, the courage to change the things I can and the wisdom to know the difference.” There are things we can influence, there are things we have no power or control over, those are the things we learned to accept, surrender into and quit fighting.” – Dr. Robert Glover · [43:49]
Dr. Robert Glover:
I mean, he ripped off the Buddha for that, life is suffering and once we accept that life is suffering, we transmute it into joy. So it doesn't matter how you say it. Once we accept that life is going to be difficult, life is going to be challenging. And I love of the serenity prayer of the 12 Step Programme. God grant me the serenity to accept the things I can't change, the courage to change the things I can and the wisdom to know the difference. There are things we can influence, there are things we have no power or control over. Those are the things we learned to accept, surrender into and quit fighting.
“If we can use life's difficulties and challenges, the losses, the setbacks, the disappointments, and embrace them as just part of our powerful, personal growth machine to grow us up and help us live in reality, that's how we begin to learn to surrender and embrace the things we can't change, that we can't control, that we wish weren't happening.” – Dr. Robert Glover · [44:39]
Dr. Robert Glover:
I can now sleep through the loud music from the bar till two in the morning. I mean, earplugs help, but I quit getting worked up about it now. It is what it is, and if I'm not worked up about it, I go to sleep. If I get I'll resentful and worked up about it keeps me awake all night long. And if we can use life's difficulties and challenges, the losses, the setbacks, the disappointments, and embrace them as just part of our powerful, personal growth machine to grow us up and help us live in reality, that's how we begin to learn to surrender and embrace the things we can't change, that we can't control, that we wish weren't happening.
Will Barron:
Robert, have you read the book… And I apologise for the audience about the language now, but The Subtle Art of Not Giving A Fuck.
Dr. Robert Glover:
Yeah. I was really sick four years ago. I had a tumour blocking my small intestine come to find out, but nobody could find it. And so I was sick for three plus months, lost over 30 pounds, went to doctors in Mexico, America, nobody could figure out what was wrong with me. That was one of the talk about things like this should not be happening to of me, that was one of the most challenging things in my life, to not be able to eat, to not be able to use the restroom, to be fatigued all the time, to lose over 30 pounds, to not know what was wrong, to know is this killing me? Am I just going to live with this forever? Is somebody going to find an answer to it? Man, I did a lot of surrendering, a lot of it accepting.
Dr. Robert Glover:
But during that time, not only I take a lot of naps, I did a lot of reading. And people that asked me, “Robert, do you know Mark Manson? He mentions you in his book Models.” Which was the first book that he wrote. And I said, “Yeah, we've actually had an email exchange or two, but I don't know him personally.” But I'd never actually read at the book Models. And then of course Mark wrote The Subtle Art of Not Giving A Fuck. So during that time when I was dying, I read both of the books and I love his approach and finally found out in Models where he mentions me is in the epilogue, the very end of the book. He says that No More Mr. Nice Guy is probably the best book for men's emotional development out there. And I go, “Thank you, Mark.”
Dr. Robert Glover:
And then when he got famous with The Subtle Art of Not Giving A Fuck, and then people probably went back and read Models, that probably sold a lot of books for me. So I'm very grateful for Mark Manson. So yeah, his approach that yeah, we often give too many fucks about too many things that either aren't that important or that we don't have control over, it's another way of saying the serenity prayer. If I can do something about it, let me do it. If I can't, giving too many fucks about it doesn't serve me.
Will Barron:
Yeah. I love it. So I didn't know that, your story there, but it's amazing to see the feedback loop of content and insights that goes back around. Right? Because I was with Mark on the show maybe like two years ago I had him on the Salesman Podcast and I'd read the book, but I don't think it sunk in, right? I had a chat with him, really nice guy. I had a good chat. We ended up talking nothing to do with the book. We were just chatting all kinds of stuff. Right? Well, I revisited the book maybe about a month ago. Really enjoyed it even more so second time round. And just as you were saying then, this idea of, with this third covert contract of, if I do everything right, I'm going to have a smooth and simple life, Mark's idea of, well, you're going to give a fuck about something.
The Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fuck · [47:54]
Will Barron:
And there's only so many fucks that you can give. So if you choose to give a fuck about things that are more useful and empowering to you, not having a simple, smooth, pleasant, Disney life is less of an issue because you just not focused on that and you can focus on something that's more valuable and fulfilling is a bit of a woo woo word, right? But there's an element of that we want to cultivate in our lives. And heck, if you've got dogs barking one day, but you get to live in Mexico and you got a pool the next day, give a fuck about that rather than the dogs and net you're going to win. Right?
Dr. Robert Glover:
Yeah. We'll talk about woo woo for a minute. I've been practising gratitude for 20 plus years, where I just started just daily, just thinking of things for which I felt grateful. And I wake up every morning and just say thank you and feel grateful for a good night's sleep, for a comfortable bed, for the woman I wake up next to every morning, for air conditioning, for my pit bull Nala, for my health, just that I get to do stuff like this. I mean, I love my life, and having that as they say, and again, 12 Step Programme, the attitude of gratitude, yeah. Life is difficult. Life is suffering. Life is challenging. Life has like Mike Tyson says, everybody has a plan till you get hit in the face.
Dr. Robert Glover:
We get hit in the face and it shatters our plan and we panic. But what if we could even be grateful for those punches in the mouth, for the being pummelling upside the side of our head? What if we begin to see loss, getting fired, losing a customer, losing a contract, getting sick? What if we started developing gratitude for those things and seeing the blessing and the gift and the lessons and the growth? And I mean, how many people listening to this, years back, struggled with something really difficult, really painful. And they were thinking the whole time, “I wish this wasn't happening to me. Why is this happening to me?” It might have been the loss of a relationship, breakup, it might have been a loss of a job.
Dr. Robert Glover:
It might have been a personal illness, a loss of a loved one, a financial crisis. And they're going, “Why do I have to deal with this right now? This is difficult. I don't want to be here. This wasn't my plan.” When I was divorced in my late forties and went through some real big struggles. And as I approached 50, I thought about writing a book called Not Where I Thought I'd Be At 50. And I am glad for every one of those struggles I went through at that time in my life, because they've all helped give me a direction and a foundation and a mindset that's created the life I live right now, which I absolutely love. I love. And even like that near death experience four years ago, what a blessing it was, it rearranged.
Dr. Robert Glover:
I mean, when I came out of surgery and woke up and first thing I woke up, I thought I'm alive, that was a plus. And then, but I also, it just hit me and I'm back. My mind was clear. I mean, I'm still under anaesthesia but I thought, “I'm back.” I don't have this fog, this thing I've been having for several months. I laid in my hospital bed that night and reorganised my business, how it's going to approach it, how I was going to just reorganise how I was going.
Dr. Robert Glover:
Most people are retiring at my age. It's like, I'm on fire because I almost died. Right? And it is those experiences, instead of saying, “Why is this happening to me?” We can say, “What can I learn from this? How is this going to take me down?” And your listeners probably have all had an experience that they did not enjoy going through and now they're grateful that they did because of the way it pointed them in a new direction, gave them clarity, gave them skills, gave them empathy from being able to relate to other people better and therefore be more effective sales person.
Will Barron:
For sure. So-
“If we can accept life being difficult, life ceases to be so difficult.” – Dr. Robert Glover · [52:10]
Dr. Robert Glover:
Yeah. If we can accept life being difficult, life ceases to be so difficult.
Will Barron:
I've never had a near death experience, but I've had plenty of crappy experiences right, on a few steps down from that. And what I find interesting is some of those tough times as crappy experiences, I now look back at them and it's hilarious. It's like it's a source of humans look back and go, “How stupid was I to do that?” Or remember this when this happened. And it was a pain in the ass. The boiler broken or I had a leak in the office and we had this and this, you look back and laugh about at all. And if you hadn't have gone through some tough times, you also don't the dynamics of the good times as well. There's no counter balance to them. And so they don't perhaps impact as much.
Parting Thoughts · [53:17]
Will Barron:
Well with that Robert, I'm conscious of timing, because you said before we click record, that we're probably going to speak for longer than what we plan to. We've already done it. And I'll rub the things in me because if we start on another train of thought, we're going to be speaking for another 45 minutes, which I'd be more than happy to, but I'm conscious of your time there mate. Tell us with that then where we can find out more about you, the training that you do online and the workshops and that and the online university. And then tell us a little bit about the books as well, in particular, No More Mr. Nice Guy is we've touched on that a bunch in this episode.
Dr. Robert Glover:
Sure. Yeah. Just I'm at drglover.com, D-R-G-L-O-V-E-R.com. If they Google Robert Glover, if they Google No More Mr. Nice Guy, I've got the top 10 spaces on both those pages, even beat out Alice Cooper's No More Mr. Nice Guy. So just go to drglover.com and it talks about my workshops, my seminars, my online university. I teach one online class. It's actually coming up. I don't know how if people are going to be listening to this in real time, but coming up soon called Nice Guys Don't Finish Last, They Rot In Middle Management, and this is the first online class I developed almost 20 years ago, and it's been popular ever since. And it applies the nice guy principles too, having the success we want in working career.
Dr. Robert Glover:
So yeah, drglover.com and the books on Amazon and No More Mr. Nice Guy is my first book for anybody out there who are single. Second book is Dating Essentials For Men. Most recent book is Dating Essentials For Men, frequently asked questions. And what's interesting is my books on dating are actually really great for people in relationship and people in business because the skills I teach men in terms of dating, how to interact and get what they want, are actually great sales and marketing skills.
Dr. Robert Glover:
I teach testing for interest, something that I call testing for interest. And I tell dating guys, this is the basis of all sales. And I teach the assumptive close, the man talking to a woman. Take out your phones. It's like, oh yeah, of course you're going to give me your number. You already start putting it in your phone before, you don't just go, “Can I have your number? Would you want to go out with me sometime?” And so the assumptive close is a powerful for sales tool. So yeah, that's me. So then you go to drglover.com and you'll find a link to everything,
Will Barron:
Amazing stuff. Well, I'll link to all of that in the show note this episode over at salesman.org as well. And with that, Robert, I appreciate your time. I appreciate the insights. I appreciate you going through some trials and tribulations ups and downs and pains in your life so you can help support us young guns, right? With your knowledge and insights. I appreciate that mate. And I want to thank you again for joining us on the Salesman Podcast.
The ONLY Sales Strategy You Need to Know
Mar 15, 2022
The absolute best way to excel in sales is by following a proven system that delivers consistently great results. And today, I’m breaking down the ONLY sales system you need to know to be a roaring success in this industry.
In fact, it’s the same system we’ve used to help well over 2,000 sales professionals maximize their on-the-job effectiveness, blow past their previous income goals, and achieve real, lasting sales success.
The System
Let’s start with a question…
When’s the last time you were sitting at your desk, wondering “What do I do now?”
Now don’t misunderstand me here—sales is busy. Busy as all hell in fact. You’ve got product demos, client questions, cold outreach, quotas—and on top of it all, a sales manager breathing down your neck.
But all this stress and business, it doesn’t really mean you’re productive. You feel busy, sure. But when people don’t have a proven sales system to follow, they tend to… flail. Less gets done around the office. Opportunities go overlooked. And unmet quotas fly by month after month with little improvement.
You’re still stressed, of course. But even still, you aren’t able to make any real, lasting progress. And those feelings of stagnation, of plateauing, are the first signs of burnout.
Mental health advocate and Founder of UNCrushed Time Clarke once told me in an interview, “I do research around a survey with B2B sales professionals, and of those, 67% of the respondents strongly agreed that they are currently close to burnout or experiencing burnout.”
67% of sales reps feel this way!
And the problem in most cases is not having a cohesive system for driving consistent results and becoming a better, more effective salesperson.
It’s this problem in particular that we’ve solved for over 2,000 reps with our Selling Made Simple system. And it’s this proven system I’m covering in this video.
Now, let’s get into the ONLY sales system you’ll ever need to know.
Like I said, this is the exact system we cover in the Selling Made Simply training. And it’s made up of four equally important steps…
1: Understand Your Market
First up is understanding your market. Before you can even hope to close a sale, you have to know who you’re selling to.
And that means understanding three things in particular.
A) Honing Your Value Proposition
First is getting intimately familiar with your value proposition and tailoring it to your ideal buyer.
What are the unique problems your prospects are facing? What solutions have they already tried to solve those problems?
The more you understand about your customer, the better position you’ll be in to cater your value proposition to their distinct needs.
B) Understanding Your Buyer’s Journey
Next up is understanding your buyer’s journey.
Prospects move through very specific steps on their way to buying your product. From awareness and consideration to purchase and re-purchase. Guiding prospects through each of these steps effectively means knowing what information to deliver and when to deliver it.
C) Nailing Down the Numbers
Finally, there’s playing the numbers game.
How many prospects do you have to reach out to in order to book a single discovery call? How many of those turn into a qualified lead? And how many of those are going to actually become a buyer?
Sales is, in fact, a numbers game. And the better you get at tracking and playing to those numbers, the better you’ll become at meeting goals and closing deals consistently.
The next step in this sales system is getting in front of your buyers.
2: Get In Front of Buyers
Getting in front of buyers. Sales don’t happen in a vacuum. Buyers are busy. And to close deals, you need to do the hard work to connect with prospects regularly and strategically.
For most reps, that means reaching out in three different ways:
A) Cold Email
First is cold email.
Email has a potential ROI of 44:1—that’s 4,400%! The trick is understanding how to wield this outreach method effectively.
Subject lines, send times, body copy, value-adds—they’re all vital for cold emails that get responses from hot prospects. So do your homework before hitting “Send”!
B) Cold Calling
Then there’s cold calling.
I know—the bane of every sales rep’s existence, right? But you don’t have to be fearful of cold calling. With the right game plan and the right intentions, you can turn awkward calls into value-adding conversations.
C) Social Selling
LinkedIn in particular is one of the best social platforms to demonstrate your knowledge, build a following, and connect with potential leads. Effective social selling isn’t just a powerful supplement to cold emailing and cold calling either. Instead, it actually lets you generate leads while you sleep.
Now, for each of these outreach methods, you also need to develop strategic sales cadences.
D) Sales Cadences
Cadences are sequences of touchpoints you make with prospects. When to make them. How to make them. And what to say at each touchpoint.
Think of it like an outreach roadmap—all you have to do is follow it.
A strategically sound cadence doesn’t just boost your chances of success. It also takes all the time-consuming guesswork out of your processes, saving you time and skyrocketing your earning potential.
3: Communicate the Value
The most flawless outreach won’t do squat if you can’t communicate the value of your product. And to do so, you need to:
A) Diagnose & Discovery
Master diagnosis and discovery. This is the stage of the sales process where you identify the underlying problem your prospect is struggling with and determine if your product can actually help.
Proper lead qualification on discovery calls does more than just save you time. It also lets you demonstrate your authority, build rapport, and drives enthusiasm from the buyer.
B) Demo, Upsell, & Takeover
Mastering the demo, upsell, and takeover.
These are each three essential steps for becoming a more successful sales rep.
A demo is your chance to showcase how your product really works. And with the right technique, you can create a demo that not only educates and entices prospects, but also drives them to a purchase decision faster.
Mastering the upsell lets you win more business from your current buyers. And with proper upselling, you can earn more commissions for less work.
Then there’s the takeover. With the right strategy and technique, you can convert even the most loyal competitor accounts into enthusiastic buyers. Admittedly, it can take some work. But the rewards are well worth it.
Finally, there’s closing.
C) Closing
Closing. Funny enough, if you’ve implemented all the previous steps correctly up till this point, closing isn’t actually that difficult. Your prospects should be primed and pumped to work with you. They should fully understand your product and its benefits. And the only question left should be, “Where do I sign?”
That being said, there are a few techniques you can use to clinch the deal even more. Like the Selling Made Simple 2-question closing framework that takes sales rejection out of the equation entirely.
Now, the fourth and final step in the sales system is…
4: Cultivate the Right Mindset
Now, this is a HUGE topic by itself. And there have been countless books, lectures, and seminars on sales mindset alone.
But suffice to say that mindset is the foundation for each of the three previous steps. Do you have the discipline to study and understand your market? The strategy to get in front of buyers? And the assertiveness to communicate the value and close the deal? A lot goes into cultivating that mindset.
Summary
Well that about wraps it up for the ONLY sales system you’ll ever need. Remember, crushing it as a sales professional takes:
Understanding Your Market
Getting in Front of Buyers
Communicating the Value
Cultivating the Right Mindset
If you can do that, you’ll be well on your way to selling more, earning more, and, most importantly, achieving professional success you never thought possible.
In this episode of the Salesman Podcast, Andy Whyte explains what salespeople commonly get wrong about sales qualification. Andy is the founder of MEDDICC.com and the author of “MEDDICC’ the book.
You'll learn:
Sponsored by:
Free SalesCode assessment
Learn your strengths and weaknesses in an instant. Taken by over 10,000+ of your competitors. Don't get left behind.
Take the free assessment
Featured on this episode:
Host - Will Barron
Founder of Salesman.org
Guest - Andy Whyte
Author of MEDDICC
Hi, my name is Will, and welcome to today's episode of the Salesman Podcast. On today's episode we're looking at what salespeople get wrong about sales qualification. Our guest is Andy Whyte. Andy is the founder of medic.com and author of MEDDICC the book. Andy has been on the show before. He's a legend. I'm excited to speak with you. Andy, welcome back to the show.
Andy Whyte:
I thank you so so much. Well, it's great to be back on the show once again. I had so much great feedback from people who were your audience from last time. So it was a joy to be invited back on. Thank you very much.
What is Sales Qualification? · [00:36]
Will Barron:
You are more than welcome. I'm glad to hear that feedback. So let's not mess around. Give us, if you can, a definition, a one line of what sales qualification is. The audience should know this, but just in case they don't and then we're going to get into what people are getting wrong in this space.
“For me, qualification is about identifying with your prospect, with your prospective customer whether there is enough value that you can provide to them, whether they have enough pain or goals they're striving to achieve that your solution can help them to achieve. If the value in that is large enough for it to be worth your while and their while, that is for me what qualification is all about.” – Andy Whyte · [00:57]
Andy Whyte:
It's a big question because I think as you kind of hinted there, people get this wrong a lot and I think there's a few reasons for that, which we can definitely get into. But for me what qualification is, is about identifying with your prospect, with your prospective customer whether there is enough value that you can provide to them, whether they have enough pain or goals they're striving to achieve that your solution can help them to achieve.
Andy Whyte:
If the value in that is large enough for it to be worth your while and there while because we're asking them to invest their time, their energy, their expertise, just as much as we're asking ourselves to invest with them, is there enough value in that to make it worth my while and the customer's world? That is for me what qualification is all about.
“Sales, when done correctly, should be in exchange of value between a salesperson and a buyer.” – Will Barron · [01:44]
Will Barron:
Do you blow people's minds when you frame it up that, Andy, of sales went done correctly should be in exchange of value between a salesperson and a buyer, right? It should be an adult conversation. And if we're in a position where we've got to suck up to potential customers as salespeople we ever sell in a crappy product, we've approached the conversation the wrong way from the outset or they're just not qualified. Do you find the people go like a light bulb clicks on when you frame it up that we're exchanging value and solving a pain as opposed to just talking to features and benefits?
Andy Whyte:
Yeah. I do. But I think it's one of those things that seems very obvious when you say it, but when people are actually in the moment it's less visible to them for them to see it. And if you think about what you just described there as a sort of the negative approach that we have in our industry, where we frequently have where we are almost apologetic for being salespeople, when we approach sales with that mindset of thank you very much for your time, it's a great pleasure to meet you, I'll be very, very brief or get into it, all that kind of mindset, but that reverberates with the customer and then they therefore perceive you that way.
“When you engage with a customer almost apologetically, they straight away subconsciously or consciously sort of lower their perception of the value that you are going to bring to the table. Because the opposite of that is if you go into a conversation and you stand firm, you stand tall because you know your solution has tremendous value to offer, then you are going to make the customer feel like, wow, this person is really here to talk value.” – Andy Whyte · [03:02]
Andy Whyte:
So even if they were like, great, I'm really excited to meet Will today. I've heard great things about his company. My friend actually has worked with Will before. You may not know this. And so when you engage with the customer that way almost apologetic, they straight away sort of in subconsciously or consciously sort of lower their perception of the value that you are going to bring to the table because the opposite to that is if you go into a conversation and you stand firm, you stand tall because you know your solution has tremendous value to offer.
Andy Whyte:
You shouldn't be working for the company you're working for if you don't genuinely believe that. And so you go into the conversation with a mindset of, I have tremendous value to offer this customer. I think, I mean, I've still got to qualify this, but based on my product market fit in the sector based on the references I have, based on the great feedback I have from my customers, now I have genuine values off this customer. So I'm going to engage based on that confidence.
Andy Whyte:
And here's the really good bit is if that customer doesn't see that, then I want to also give the impression of, well, if you are not prepared to end to into, as you said very eloquently, a value exchange with me then I've got 10 other customers queuing up to talk to me because my solution is that good. That is all in a mindset for me. And I think that's very, very important, but it's also very infectious.
Andy Whyte:
If you go into conversations that way then you are going to make the customer feel like, wow, this person is really here to talk value. They're really here to talk business. I believe that they must have some value to offer me. And so it's sort of almost like a fork in the road and you can go down to one way of being apologetic being very, very confident.
Will Barron:
I think the clichéd way to frame this up is perhaps you go into the conversation as a consultant and it's a consultative sound. We've all heard this, but it doesn't really mean anything. And I've found this that's not necessarily the most practical way to look at it. Something that I teach over at some municipal academy and something that I do literally on calls every single day is I will start the conversation, do a bit of small talk, 10, 20 seconds then I'll use this line.
Will Barron:
Hey, this is how this call usually goes, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then explain how these calls usually go. And you typically get most people go, great. And then they fall into the conversation and the questions that you want to ask. Sometimes people go, oh, I don't care. I just want to ask about this or just tell me your pricing, or I'm ready to go in which case I'll go, oh, great. Well, the way that these calls usually go is that we go blah, blah, blah and go through it again.
Will Barron:
And I find that's a real practical way of implementing this, I guess, strategic consultative approach to sales calls specifically. It's more difficult to do that over an email. It's very easy to do that in person. But I like to frame it up that you want to be the doctor. And we'll go through this with qualification in a second. You sit there, you're not judgmental, you're asking intelligent questions, you're hopefully making the prospect think a layer deeper than what they have done in the past as you do question them, and they're hopefully getting value from the conversation because you're perhaps uncovering what their real needs are.
The Consultative Selling Approach · [05:58]
Will Barron:
You're uncovering they think they want this solution, but you know with your insights that there's a better solution in the market for them. It may be with your company. It may be with another company, but when you go into a conversation using that line, hey, this is the way these calls usually go and then you dive into outlining what the call goes like and then you frame it up in your own mind that you're a doctor, you're here to understand the patient and then prescribe them a solution, I find that that really gets that consultative approach really practically nailed on people's heads.
Andy Whyte:
Yeah. I love the way you said that and I'll probably be stealing your line there a little bit actually. Well, I like it a lot. Don't you think it's funny or don't you find that I think everybody understands what you said there about the consultative approach? I think we buy into that. I think in our industry we understand the value, for want of a better word, of the consultative approach. But we also I think where we get it wrong in our industry is we disassociate being the consultative approach from selling.
Andy Whyte:
And what I mean by that and the best way I can articulate this is if you think of a typical LinkedIn salesperson's title these days, if they're not calling themselves an account executive or whatever their actual job role on their job description is, they tend to sort of come up with titles that try to give the illusion that they're a consultant rather than a salesperson. And they're not doing that from the basis of I'm here to be a consultative approach, or maybe they are a little bit, but they're trying to disassociate themselves from sales.
Andy Whyte:
And I always think that's funny because I always laugh because I think, well, what's going to happen? You're going to get into what is in my industry of technology sales an average sort of anything like a three to a six month average sales cycle. You're going to get sort of five, six months in and sort just sneaky slide an order form across the desk and the customer picks up and goes, what? You're a salesperson. I thought you were here to give me some free consulting. Well, you got me, so I better sign sort of thing.
Andy Whyte:
It's staffed. Whereas the best salespeople, I'm sure if people reflect for a second the best salesperson they've ever worked with. And then if you stop thinking about yourself because salespeople we always think we are the best salespeople ever. So then maybe the second best salesperson you've ever worked with what you'll find with that person it's a lot of behaviours in my opinion and when I talk to people about this, which are things they're the first person to say they're a salesperson.
Andy Whyte:
They're the first person to kind of qualify out if they don't think the opportunity is there for them. And so there's a real correlation in my experience about the very best salespeople who are the ones that orientate closest to being salespeople and approaching their job as a salesperson.
Will Barron:
I think it's simple than that, Andy. I think this is just a big gap between used car salespeople that we don't want to be associated with and obviously there's some great used car salespeople what's the stereotype but we're going to lean into the stereotype because it makes us feel good in this scenario and then there's actual salespeople. So me who sells medical devices could not go to a surgeon and use weird used car salesperson close ended closing questions and things like that because they're just say get out the operating room, never come back and that's it.
Will Barron:
You've just lost a multimillion pound account. Even with, I don't typically sell the one on one training that we do salesman.org anymore, but I do most of the kind of 10 to 100 seat enterprise and large business deals and training that we do. Even with those individuals, a lot of them listen to the podcast. They tune into our concept. They're a fan of me in the training. They're already halfway there to get the deal done. It's just some of the kind of steps of MEDDICC and MEDDPICC of the logistics and things that we need to get sorted to make the deal happen and to qualify them on the call.
Will Barron:
Even those people, I can't use all this weird old school sales on them because they're just going to hang up the phone and be like, that dude was two-faced. He said one thing on the podcast and then tried to do another thing with me.
Will Barron:
I think it's as simple as Andy, you've got actual sales, which is what we're talking about here, which is understanding your marketplace, getting in front of the right people, doing a qualifying discovery call, understanding where the buy is, where they want to be, maybe stretching that out a little bit and adding a layer of emotion and really emphasising the pain and helping them understand that the pain they're in, getting them through the blockers, wherever that be the status quo, the risk of change, things like that, and getting them from one side to the other.
Stepping Into The Acceptable Sales Landscape · [10:33]
Will Barron:
That's what sales is. But that word sales is on the gulf of the kind of sales landscape is someone selling used cars or someone selling TVs in PC world. And I think the same word as you to describe two totally different industries and hopefully our audience right now are in the kind of the far side, the large deal size enterprise, medium size company, that side of things. So is that fair to say?
Andy Whyte:
Yeah. I think that's very fair to say. As a former double glazing salesman I have to defend my peers in that industry and say that some of the best lessons I ever learned in sales that I still use today will learn double glazing selling, honestly. And people are probably wondering what those things are. If I expand on what those things, what they are, it's very similar to how when I look at some of the most successful salespeople I've ever hired have been, they've been former recruiters.
Andy Whyte:
And I think there's a lot to be said for the craft of sales, but there's also a lot to be said for the graft of sales. And I think that those types of industries where they really make you learn very early on that there's a lot of art to sales, but there's also a lot of the numbers game involved as well. And so I have a certain fondness for people operating at the sort of the less respected end of sales.
Andy Whyte:
And as someone that really struggled to get into B2B sales from that world I would implore anyone that meets somebody who's in that world and you're thinking about hiring them and you're looking at all their characteristics and you're thinking this seems like a really high potential person, but I'm a bit put off because they don't have that experience of B2B. I know we're digressing here, but I'll say take a chance on that person.
Will Barron:
Well, I think that's easily solved of, Andy, if you got a call with me in a job interview, you're obviously not an idiot. You're obviously not, again, the stereotype that was leaning into there. And so if you've got the traits of someone who's willing to put in the work, who understands the numbers, who isn't fearful of rejection, you've done the hard bit. That's all the mental game.
“Anyone can read a book, anyone can memorise some stuff, but if you're not the person who can implement it, then it's all for waste.” – Will Barron · [13:13]
Will Barron:
That's becoming the person who can implement all of the modern tactics and what we're going to talk about in a second, Medic, all the modern tactics and frameworks and procedures of a successful B2B salesperson. The hardest bit is becoming the person who can do the job. Anyone can read a book, anyone can memorise some stuff, but if you're not the person who can implement it, then it's all for waste.
Andy Whyte:
Yes. I agree with that spot on
The Things Salespeople Get Wrong About Qualification · [13:22]
Will Barron:
Okay. Let's bring things back to the premise of the show because we've digressed and that's great. We can digress some more in a second, but what do salespeople get wrong about sales qualification? It's the one or two things, Andy, that people you see just getting wrong over and over and time and time again.
Andy Whyte:
Yeah. I've been thinking about this a lot recently because I think it comes down to this. If I said the right way of qualifying is to identify if there's value for the customer and for ourselves that is there that it's worth exploring, another way of putting it. I think the way that people get qualification wrong is they approach the opportunity based on the perspective of, is there an opportunity here for me? Is there a deal here for me? And if you think about kind of traditional qualification framework, something like BANT, for example, which I'm not going to criticise BANT, it has a place.
Andy Whyte:
I wouldn't say you could have it broadly as your qualification framework, but if you think about how that works, you approach a customer and you say, hey, do you have budget? Do you have authority? Do you need what I'm selling and do you know the timing in which you're going to buy it? And if you think about that and if you think back a decade ago, two decades ago, there wasn't that much on offer to customers, particularly in my space of technology sales.
Andy Whyte:
You kind of just had a few different pillars, if you like. You had ERP, which actually covered probably five or six different categories that have broken out of it. You have CRM, you didn't even necessarily have marketing software. So generally what was happening when a customer approached you, they a good understanding of whether they needed what you're selling or not. Nowadays I think there's something 10,000 marketing technology companies. There's something like 1,000 new SaaS companies a week.
Andy Whyte:
And so the chances of when you approach the customer them really understanding whether they need your solution and therefore whether they even have budget for it or the authority to buy it is quite unlikely. You are narrowing yourself in with that approach for people that are very, very well informed of which, of course, there are customers out there that do approach you well informed, but that's the RFP track. That's the inbound track. And we know in sales now so much revenue is driven out bound.
Andy Whyte:
So much revenue is driven by ingenuity at the top of the funnel, whether it be an SDR, BDR, doing something wonderful to capture somebody's attention who's had 10 other people try to get their attention that day. Whether it's somebody boldly approaching someone an event, or whether it's a marketing team with a brilliant campaign, whatever it is, those things, those little sparks of ingenuity that we need now to get the attention of our prospects in so many cases.
“Giving medicine without diagnosis in healthcare is malpractice. But we so often do that in sales when we approach the customer who doesn't probably know much about what we do and saying, “Do you need what we do?” And their answer is either no or they're going to not fully understand your full value and you're not going to get into a really good conversation based on that.” – Andy Whyte · [16:51]
Andy Whyte:
If we then take that spark of ingenuity and then say, hey, we caught your interest with something we do, it might have even been a strap line, it might have been a screenshot of a dashboard, if we then go, do you need that and have you got the budget for that? Then we're not going to get a very positive outcome, I don't think. And if we do we haven't even got to what the problem is. And I think you talked about the medical industry and that kind of classic line that we all know and love in sales, which is giving medicine without diagnosis in healthcare is malpractice.
Andy Whyte:
But we so often do that in sales when we approach solution first and that's kind of what we are doing when we qualify on that basis. We're approaching the customer who doesn't probably know much about what we do and saying, do you need what we do? And their answers is either no or they're going to not fully understand your full value and you're not going to get into a really good conversation based on that.
The Primary Role the Salesman of the Future Will Play · [17:17]
Will Barron:
Is this a lack of understanding our buyers' journeys in that if we are replying to RFPs, well, we've probably already lost a deal because a salesperson has probably helped the buyer create the RFP and that buyer is going to be informed. They've done their own research. We all know these statistics that the salespeople are getting involved further and further back in the buying journey.
Will Barron:
Maybe bounce more appropriate in that kind of environment as you kind of outline, going back to Medic, is this more appropriate when we are proactively trying to spark and help the buyer understand the pain point that they may have so we're not reliant on them having gone through tonnes of content, tonnes of conversations with other salespeople before they get to us? We're not necessarily engineering the pain, but highlighting the pain, which is the role of a consultant, which ties us back to the beginning of the conversation. Is that where we should be going with this so that we can then educate the buyer through their buying journey?
Will Barron:
We have our own content, we have our own conversations, we have our own insights. So then obviously the far side of this, the far more likely to sanity of course than our competitor. Is that the future of all of this, of lead generation to a buyer? Hey, well, if you discover this problem yourself, you're going to do all this research, you're going to come out of it maybe with a solution one side, but give me five minutes now. I'll see if you've got the problem, I'll see if we can help and I'll guide you through the process towards the end of the sale and in a consultative role instead. Is that what the future of this looks like?
Andy Whyte:
Yeah. I think it comes back to a number of things that we know are really, really important. And we all buy into things like the challenge yourself, for example, of kind of thought leadership and it is said a lot that customers are much, much more informed these days than they were because of analysts, because of reviews sites, because of peer reviews, because of better websites, better mediums like YouTube for finding things out. And I think that's all fair, but I do think it does miss out on the big, big, big opportunity that is there, that elite salespeople I see regularly grab hold of.
Andy Whyte:
This is the kind of thing that those elite salespeople will hate me for saying. It's one of those things that's dead obvious though. So I think that people probably should use it more, but it's the idea of influencing the customer towards your strengths of your solution. And in a MEDDPICC context, this full into the decision criteria and typically people when they think of the decision criteria, they think about it in a manner of approaching the customer and understanding what the criteria is in which they're going to base their decision.
Andy Whyte:
And so that's fine if it's an RFP and they've put a lot of thought or hired an analyst or a consultant to build the RFP for them in a good situation. Like you said earlier, often it's written by your competitor. It's fine if they've already got this really sort of well set out decision criteria to try and adapt your solution to suit that. Of course, you're still going to want to try and influence it towards your strengths as well.
“What elite salespeople do differently is they approach every single conversation with a very clear set of decision criteria that they want to influence the customer towards. So there'll be things that they know that their solution does differently or better than the alternatives on the market and they'll be trying to influence the customer to understand the value of needing those things.” – Andy Whyte · [20:32]
Andy Whyte:
But what that really misses out on is the huge opportunity that exists to be seen as a thought leader, your customer and what elite salespeople do is they will approach every single conversation with a very clear set of decision criteria that they want to influence the customer towards. So there'll be things that they know that their solution does differently or better than the alternatives on the market and they'll be trying to influence the customer to understand the value of needing those things.
Andy Whyte:
So it therefore becomes part of the customer's decision criteria and therefore they've differentiated their solution and they're kind of almost put it onto the requirements without even almost the customer realising that it's unique to them. That sets them up beautifully for defending and differentiating themselves further on in the sales cycle where other competitors come in and try and say they do the same thing. The customer can ask, well, do you do it like this? And hopefully if you set it up properly the customers should really understand the value and how you do it differently or better.
Andy Whyte:
I'll give you an example of where this happened for me recently. I was looking to hire a particular company a vendor to do something for me. And in the very first conversation the first vendor we spoke to said, oh, from everything you've told us you really should have this thing, three letter acronym thing. And I was like, oh, I hadn't thought about that. I knew about it, but I hadn't considered it for this project. And so all of a sudden from that point on they did a great job of explaining why it was valuable to me.
Andy Whyte:
I was like, yes, I absolutely need that thing. Every single vendor I met thereafter, I didn't even mention it to them that I was looking for that thing unless I really liked them and I wanted to give them the chance to show that they could do it because I felt if I go and say, hey, do you do this three letter acronym thing everyone go, oh, we do that. So I was almost holding it back and keeping it to myself. It's almost like a test for the vendor I was going to pick. And it turned out that I didn't pick the first vendor, but I would've picked them.
Andy Whyte:
It was just that their model was not right, but if everything else would've been right with them they would've won that deal, hands down, no question about it even if others could do what they said as well as them because they were the ones that planted the seed. They were ones that maybe think they're really, really thinking ahead on this stuff. And I think that's a really big thing. We're trying to buy some community software right now and every company website we go on has the buyer's guide, the RFP primer, the comparison site, the 10 things you need to consider buying community software, all that sort of stuff.
Andy Whyte:
And we've had to build a spreadsheet of decision criteria, things that we think we need and there's a few things on there that the companies have done well where they've kind of differentiated themselves and they've kind of put themselves strongly early on, but to your point, this is all happening before I've actually spoke to a salesperson.
Andy Whyte:
Now, if I actually got onto the phone to one of these people and they really understood what we were trying to do early on and then were able to sort of influence me then I am so easy. I don't know if it's just me, whether it's a salesperson thing, but I feel like I'm very easy to sell to if you kind of understand my needs and adapt your solution to fit it.
Will Barron:
I do this all of the time, Andy, and I'll just be straight about it. We just want to deal over Sandler. And what we do different over at salesmans.org and our training programme is online training programme, it's killing, it's great and it's been updated. I think it's Version 4 or 5 now that we're on and it's effective. But what I found, this is just before Christmas we started experimenting with this, is that if I just jump on at least one call with everyone who signs up, just having done now hundreds and thousands of these calls and all these podcast apps, I'm pretty good.
Will Barron:
I'm not a genius or anything, just pattern recognition. I'm pretty good at spotting the 10%, 20% of things that typically make 89% of the difference. So I can say, hey, you're just sending this one crappy email. Why is that email going out? Stop doing that. And immediately everything else improved later on down the sales cycle. Whatever it is, there's multiple things. You'd be able to do this as well duping on these consulting calls. So I really emphasise when we're selling against competitors, whoever that be.
Will Barron:
And we are the kind of baby in the room versus the beasts of Sandler and challenges sale by Gartner and all these large organisations, corporate organisations. They're all great companies and I've had people from all of these organisations on the podcast in the past. So it's a pleasure to compete against them, but I always double down on this idea that you're going to get me on an hour call, depending on what type of training package you sign up for your team and I'll sit there and listen to them and give them noble share outside perspective insights on what they're doing.
Will Barron:
Now, maybe consultants do this, small businesses individuals who do sales training, but no large corporate that I'm aware of does this. They'll do a group class or they'll do a mixture of one thing or another, but you're just getting some random sales trainer. You're not getting the person that you're speaking to, the person that you're consuming the content of. I said, we just won this deal against Sandler, is 100 odd seats, pretty good deal for us, nice kind of large deal size for our organisation.
Will Barron:
It might be like a pile sales. It might be pile number of seats for their organisation. I have no idea, but nice little deal for us this month. On the back of they're like, well, can you do some one-on-ones because that's what salesman.org are going to do and they just refused to include it no matter what the price. So we charged way more than what they did, but I influenced the customer and rightly so in that these one-on-one sessions, quick 45 minute call has tremendous value and they bought into that idea. They're going to see the benefits of it.
Selling Success Often Comes Down to Focusing on Your Strengths and Making That Your Differentiator · [26:32]
Will Barron:
And that one was a deal against a larger more established company. So this is out the realm for anyone to do. You just got to source out what your strengths are, how you can implement it. And if there's any value that you as a salesperson can add on top of this as well because there's a lot of salespeople out there have a lot of insights and ability to consult and maybe a few phone calls, maybe an onboarding call or something might be valuable for your customers.
Andy Whyte:
Yeah. And I bet the beautiful thing about that was, I guess it's why you were using it as an example is the one-to-one, the one-on-one, sorry, were not necessarily something you led with. It was you had identified, hang on a minute, there's something that I have in my offering that seems to be particularly important to this customer therefore I'm going to double down on those things.
Andy Whyte:
And what t I'm sure you did and what really elite salespeople do in those situations when they identify they have differentiation, is they almost, well, the best case I ever see of it is they wrap the deal up where it's almost takes entirely around that thing. It's like, we're going to do some training and, of course, you're going to get that brilliant training we've talked about and all that good stuff, but for me I'm just so glad that came to work together because it sounds to me like this is the most important thing. This should be the priority one that we should really stick into.
“Unfortunately, salespeople often just skip past that bit of discovery straight into trying to talk about their solutions and miss out on all the opportunities to attach and uncover genuine value.” – Andy Whyte · [28:01]
Andy Whyte:
And that, of course, it only works if it's genuine. So we're not saying for a second that we kind of try and do anything other than find what's in our offering that is genuinely most impactful, most valuable to the customer. So often we just skip past that bit of discovery straight into trying to talk about our solutions and miss out on all the opportunity to attach and uncover genuine value.
Will Barron:
Yeah. And in this particular case, and this is why I love remote selling, I love Zoom. Everyone now is just happy to use Zoom or Skype rather than pushing beyond the phone. When I was chatting with this VP of marketing who got the deal signed, got the paperwork done, I could see his eyes lit up as soon as I mentioned the one-on-one sessions. I just called him out, hey, you seem to have lit up when I mentioned that.
Will Barron:
And then he goes into the issues that he is had with training in the past and people not getting on top of it and training companies promising one thing and then never see them again further down the line and they'll sign up to an online call or books or in-person training and it doesn't have an effect. And I was like, great. So I'm kind of just calculating all of that and then that's the follow up email that I send. Hey, you said all of this, we solve all those problems.
Will Barron:
We solve X with Y, this is why we're a good fit to get work together. Does it make sense to get the contract signed? It's dead simple, but I guess that's almost the art of some of this. The science is you've got the MEDDICC process. You're going to ask certain questions. You're going to qualify appropriately hard and not feel uncomfortable asking some of these questions that can be not awkward. If you're speaking to someone who's actually a decision maker, most people are happy to answer MEDDICC kind of questions.
Will Barron:
If you're speaking to the wrong person, an end user, they're probably thinking, oh, crap, this is probably a conversation with my boss. And so they might put the guard up a little bit, but when you qualify hard, you speak to the right person, you get the right answers, you can then facilitate the whole of the rest of the sales process as well as feel comfortable putting in your own time into this because there's a decent chance of it turning out all right.
Who is the Economic Buyer and Why is it so Hard to Engage with the Economic Buyer? · [29:52]
Will Barron:
So with that said, Andy, we've covered the decision criteria side of things. Are there any steps in MEDDICC that people get nervous about diving into whether it's the questions are a bit more personal, we're talking about cash now rather than just want and needs? Is there any part of the process that you find people occasionally may skip over if they're not feeling so confident that day?
Andy Whyte:
Yeah. There's a couple that I think stand out here and they're very different for the reasons I think. The one that people tend to I find skip a little bit is the economic buyer. And for those that don't know, the economic buyer is the person of authority in the deal. They're generally the overall authority, they control the budget. So you could be selling to somebody who owns the budget, but above them they're the controller of the budget. So they dictate how much budget the person you're selling to gets. They're the person that could create budget, stop budget.
Andy Whyte:
they have veto power. They're generally a senior person. And what I find happens a lot is that because it's hard to engage the economic buyer via nature of the fact they're a senior person, there's all these other sort of social dynamics going on in the deal which means you can't go around people or you go above people, that sort of stuff. People tend to go, it's hard. And actually there's a little bit of risk with it where I might upset the people I'm working with.
Andy Whyte:
And so I'm just not going to do it. And the analogy I use here is one from customer service, which is that lovely saying of we go the extra mile, which means we do a bit more. And then there's that sort of that saying that gets built on the top of that, which is there's no traffic on the extra mile. I think engaging with the economic buyer is a bit going the extra mile. You're working a bit harder, which means that hopefully you are working harder than your competition is.
Andy Whyte:
And therefore when you are on that extra mile, there's less traffic there. And so because it's hard, because it can be, I don't want to use the word dangerous because I think the only time it's ever dangerous is your deal isn't qualify properly, but because of that it means that you are likely to be the only person engaging with the economic buyer in the opportunity and the deal, which for me means you're cut above everybody else. So that's something I say there and just tips for people listening along because, again, even if you don't use MEDDPICC, it's still very important that you engage with senior people in your opportunities.
Andy Whyte:
The biggest tip I can give here is the sooner the better. We've all been those people where we thought we've had a good deal and everyone around us, our supporting team has been working with us felt good about it then suddenly it's gone sideways. Something has happened. The competitors got the march on us. Some priorities have changed inside, something like that. And what tends to happen, in my experience when those deals go sideways is you have an urgent meeting goes into the calendar.
Andy Whyte:
Your boss invites you and other people in and it's called a war room or something like that and everyone goes, what are we going to do? And always [inaudible 00:32:56] I will reach out to the senior person who's probably the economic buyer. And then it's too late. You are literally rolling the dice at that point where you've got nothing else left to lose. And if you've done everything else right before then, and you've engaged with them, you've kept them upstages in the project and the process and it has gone sideways then that's fair enough.
Andy Whyte:
That should be a good thing to do, but it shouldn't be your first engagement with them is when things have gone wrong. So that will be my advice is to engage early and use your executive team. People worry about, oh, I don't want to upset my champion. I don't want to upset my contact coach, whoever it may be by going around them. Well, you don't have to use your… The economic buyer wants to hear from your boss more than it wants to hear from you just because of multi-level selling.
Andy Whyte:
So use them and then it's not necessarily going around. It can be a very positive thing. It can be, hey, there, Mr. and Mrs. economic buyer, my name is Will. I lead the team here for salesman.org in Europe. I heard that Andy and a couple of people in our team are working with Stephanie and Steve and your team and all I keep hearing is great things about it. Sounds very, very exciting.
Andy Whyte:
We're particularly excited because of how we've helped X reference company that's going to inspire the person you're talking to to know that you are legitimate and know that you are credible. And all I wanted to do was just to let you know that if this project does turn into something, then I'll be the executive sponsor for it. And I wanted to just open up this line of communication with you should you have any questions for me.
Andy Whyte:
They've got a meeting next week. If it goes well, I'll let you know how it went kind of thing. And there's no ask. That's the really important thing. You're not kind of troubling them. You're not trying to get them to come to the meeting or anything like that. Just engage them. And then you've got the line of communication open then which is better than not having it open.
Will Barron:
So if I'm trying to identify the economic buyer and I'm not convinced the person I'm speaking to is the decision maker, economic buyer, person with the purse strings, I will jovially be, and I almost verbatim clap as I do this on a Zoom call, I'll be like, who bank rolls this? Who's in charge? Who do we need to get on board? What are we doing? Who's got the money? And I'll just throw a bunch of stuff out like that and I'll see the other person kind of go, and the pondering. And they typically give me a pretty straightforward answer.
Will Barron:
Now, I don't recommend other people necessarily do this because it takes a little bit of not that I think I'm incredibly charismatic, but I can pull it off a little bit of charisma to pull this kind of thing off. And again, a lot of people that I deal with are already familiar with me, the podcast, the content. So I've already got that little bit of trust at distance and that bit of rapport before I even get on the phone. So I'll be like, who's financing this? How has this deal been done in the past?
Want to Identify the Economic Buyer? Here’s How You Do It · [35:50]
Will Barron:
Deals that had been done on the past. Who do we need to get on side for this? I'll just throw that out there. Is there another way to, if someone is a bit nervous and they don't want to because it's kind of full barrel. I just did that or it can be. But people who want a more subtle approach, Andy, how would you recommend people, the audience ask essentially ask if the person they're speaking to is the economic buyer and if not, who is that person? What kind of questions would you be asking?
Andy Whyte:
Yeah. I love how you said that. I think this is one of the great things about MEDDPICC as well is that it's a framework at its core. People call it methodology as well which I think is fair enough, but at its core, it's a framework. And why that's an important thing in this context is it doesn't dictate your style, how you should talk to the customer, your personality, your tone of voice, all that quite good stuff that makes you you and makes people trust you and feel that you are genuine.
Andy Whyte:
So what we're saying with MEDDPICC in this case, the economic buyers, we're saying you need to engage with the person, you need to talk to this person. So what you've just done there is a wonderful, wonderful example of how you can uncover that using your style. And like you said, not everyone will have the same style as you, which is fine. And I think also you've got this wonderful thing which I didn't know existed before doing what I'm doing now, which you're selling to salespeople.
Andy Whyte:
So you can almost just be like, wow, I'm going to close you now just so you know. And people are like, oh, he's doing the close. Cool. I'm going to judge you on this one kind of thing. So people are a little bit more give you an easier time of it than they would say if you're selling to an HR, director, or something.
Will Barron:
You say given easier time. So these enterprise deals, these large deal size, it's usually a CRO, CMO, VP of sales. And so they're usually a bit of an asshole for the first 10 minutes until I keep going back to that question, hey, the way these calls usually go and then eventually they relent. And then at the end of the call they'd be like, oh, well, I'm just testing you. Well, see our sales team are a big fan of you, but I wanted to just see. So it goes both ways. Sometimes it's really pleasant.
Will Barron:
Sometimes you have to stand up for yourself a little bit and you have to position yourself as an expert who humbly I've got expertise on these calls that some of these VP of sales no matter how long they've been selling for I've spoken to more salespeople than they have very likely. I've interviewed more people than experts in the space than what they have and so sometimes you need to lay down the low. So it can go both ways.
How to Accurately Identify the Economic Buyer · [38:01]
Andy Whyte:
Spot on. Totally agree with that. Going back to the question because I appreciate I kind of digressed again, but didn't answer it. So I think if you are a person that's finding it harder or finding you don't quite know how to approach that situation of uncovering of economic buyer, you've got options. First things first is it's very unlikely you are the first person ever to sell to this company from the discipline of product that you are selling from.
Andy Whyte:
So if you sell marketing technology, or if you sell different type technology, or if you're in a completely different space, there'll be peers in your industry that you know who have sold to that company and to maybe even the person you are selling to before. And for whatever reason we don't tap into this enough in sales. We just don't. And even though we will know that someone else who's maybe even a former colleague, a friend of ours has walked the path that we are trying to walk, we don't ask.
Andy Whyte:
So that's one option is to say, hey, I'd call you up and say, Will, I saw on website that you guys have got a ABC as a reference on there. The customer wasn't you and goes, yes. I'm struggling. I can't quite figure out who's the economic buyer or who's the person of authority. And you would tell me or you might give me some clue. You might say, well, it was this person, but they left. Whatever happens it's definitely not Steve. Steve was where I made a mistake. I thought it was Steve. And so you get free information. That's one example that you can do.
Andy Whyte:
Another thing that works very well, but again, this is very much a style thing, is I would often, and it would depend on the personality of my champion or potential champion candidate to be champion, let's say, or coach, I would often just level with them. And I would say, hey, look, a lot of people think that my job as a salesperson, what makes me a good or a bad salesperson is my ability to do great presentations or to make really cool demos and things like that.
Andy Whyte:
What really makes a good or a bad person when it comes to my job is to being able to understand who all the stakeholders are and make sure that I understand who is who, who cares about what, and to ensure that I consider everybody's needs because you are my number one person. Of course, we can see that. And I'm very much focused on making sure that as we've uncovered our value supports your goals, your challenges, whatever they are. But what about this person? And I'll start to sort of put in some suggested, my sort of suspected economic buyer.
Andy Whyte:
I'll be like, what about this person, the CFO let's say? Normally I find when I work with people in that position, I find that as much as they care about the things you are looking at, they're actually more interested in the total cost of ownership or they're thinking more about how quickly this is going to return on investment or what the opportunity cost will be. What do you think about that person? Is her name Stephanie or CFO? When you typically work with her what sort of things does she ask? And then you're into a conversation then and then you can hopefully take the opportunity.
“I think everyone has bought into the idea of how important it's to have champions, right? But what we tend to do is we build our champions up and we do a great job of that, but then we kind of just sort of sit back and look at them, bow before them and think what a great job we've done of building this person that really loves us and our product. We don't actually put them to work for us. We don't ask them to do the difficult things that we really, really need them to do for us like sit on a procurement call with us and stick up for us where procurements try to disvalue our solution.” – Andy Whyte · [41:07]
Andy Whyte:
If they're a true champion or potential to be a true champion to sell to them basically the value in them introducing you directly, which I think we just don't do enough. We just never ask the question. And this is another thing and I'll only say this very quickly, but I think in our industry, except for the odd daft, pretend sales guru on LinkedIn, I think everyone has bought into the idea of how important it's to have champions, right?
Andy Whyte:
But what we tend to do is we build our champions up and we do a great job of that, but then we kind of just sort of it back and look at them and sort of bow before them and think what a great job we've done of building this person that really loves us and our product. We don't actually put them to work for us.
Andy Whyte:
We don't ask them to do the difficult things that we really, really need them to do for us like pull legal calls forward, sit on a procurement call with us and stick up for us where procurements try to disvalue our solution, or bring other people into the meeting, get security to take a call rather than you fill in their 30 page document, all those types of things.
Andy Whyte:
What champions can really help us accelerate our progress with we almost sort of shy away because we don't want to like, oh, we want to waste them. I don't want to upset my champion. I don't want to actually put them to work because then they might not be my champion again. And then, hang on a minute, what if I don't actually win the deal at all? And that's the way they should be thinking.
Will Barron:
I think a lot of what you to describe comes down to the paperwork process as well. So physical paperwork or just the buying journey within the account of a lot of salespeople and I've been guilty for this in my medical device days of, hey, I got in, I spoke to the surgeon, I ejected, I went KFC on the way home and had a nice snack. And now I'm sat in front of the sofa job done, but it's just got into this black hole. We no idea what's happening within the account.
Will Barron:
That might be the actual champion, but I've not guided that person. What I do is do a demo with them. They love the equipment, but then maybe they don't know what to do next, but we are selling these products and services day in, day out so we probably got a pretty good overview across the market of what needs to happen, the paperwork that needs to be done, who needs to be in front of who?
Will Barron:
And I feel like a lot of salespeople just allow it to go into the black hole, tick a box, and then move on to the next inbound lead that they get as opposed to doing account based selling or account based marketing of mapping out the account, working out who the actual champion is, the economic buyer, the other steps of medical or MEDDPICC or wherever acronym that whether qualification methodology that we incorporate, we want to use in corporate or telling us to use something else.
The Consequences of Missing Steps in the MEDDIC Framework · [43:30]
Will Barron:
You've got to see this through because what's the point in just doing that initial few steps if you're not going to get a deal at the end of it? It's a waste of your time, it's a waste of company resources. Is there anything else that we need to add to that, Andy, to encourage salespeople to… I'll ask you this in a different way. So we can use medical or MEDDPICC whichever you prefer. Does the framework work if we miss steps out or does it have to be done not necessarily in order, not necessarily one person, but does it need to be done within the account to maximise our chances of getting the deals done?
Will Barron:
What I'm saying is if we feel lazy and want to skip a bit or we feel our confidence for whatever reason is down on that day, we don't ask a tough question, are we immediately dropping the effectiveness of medical MEDDPICC just rapidly or is it possible to still get deals done by just doing this kind of willy-nilly?
Andy Whyte:
Yeah. Great question. The way I'll answer this question is how I think about MEDDPICC which is that I think about it as being three pillars. And I don't think anyone would ever argue with the importance of these three pillars in selling, which is the first pillar is value. So understanding the value of our solution, how we do it, how we do it differently, all that sort of stuff. Second is stakeholders, which is not just who, who, but it's also each stakeholder has a different value.
“It's long known that the biggest lever you can pull in terms of enhancing your performance as a salesperson, as a sales team, as a company is not the amount of opportunities you have. It's not the average selling price opportunities. It's not your conversion rate. It's the time you take to close those opportunities. If you can improve that one, that's the one that'll have the biggest impact on your overall performance.” – Andy Whyte · [44:51]
Andy Whyte:
They're interested in different paying challenge they're trying to solve. So those two are very interlocked. And the third one is process and this one is the one that gets the least attention, but it's also the one that can have the biggest impact on your performance as an individual. It's long known that the biggest lever you can pull in terms of enhancing your performance as a salesperson, as a sales team, as a company is not the amount of opportunities you have.
Andy Whyte:
It's not the average selling price opportunities. It's not your conversion rate. It's the time you take to close those opportunities. That is if you can improve that one, that's the one that'll have the biggest impact on your overall performance. They're all important, of course, but if we were just to bring up share screen now and start scrolling LinkedIn we would see 100 posts about pipeline generation, cold calling this, cold calling out videos, blah, blah, blah, which is all good. Not knocking it for a second before we saw one about conversion rate or about selling price selling value.
Andy Whyte:
And then we'd probably see 1,000 before we'd see any, if at all, about the length of the sales cycle. So those sort of three pillars that I mentioned are all important. And if you were to think about MEDDPICC sits on top of those and it gives a framework so that you can make sure you are focused enough on each of those pillars. If you were to miss off one of those pillars and you were talking about missing off the process, then it's going to have a really big impact.
Andy Whyte:
And I always say this, is people will often say, I have this, well, I don't have a saying, it's an industry saying of no champion, no deal. Big champion, big deal. And people go, oh, hang on a minute, Andy. There was this one time where I didn't have a champion and I still closed the deal. So obviously that doesn't work. And it's like, well, yes but I bet if we looked at that deal you weren't actually selling, you were order taking.
Andy Whyte:
I bet your product and the marketing that your company did surrounding your product and the pain and the need that the customer had you could have swapped you in and put anybody of any role who can just answer questions would've still sold that. So you are taking an order. So to your question, I think every time you put a little bit less attention onto, let's say, the letters of MEDDPICC as you put it, you are qualifying worse. And people don't lose deals because there's no close lost reason of poorly qualified.
Andy Whyte:
What poorly qualified lost deal reasons look like is no champion, price was too expensive, couldn't get access, competition got ahead of us. Those are the reason. That's poor qualification because if you have MEDDPICC in lockdown you're even going to have one or two things. You're even going to have complete visibility of where you are in the deal. And you can see if you're winning or losing. It's like looking out a very clear day. Your deal is you can see everything, you see everyone, all the stakeholders, everything you need to see.
Andy Whyte:
And because of that you're going to know where you stand. And if you are looking out of that window into your deal and you see that you are losing, then you should qualify out unless you can fix it. The only way you're going to be able to fix it is if you have a champion. All of the things, all of the common objections about price, competition, not seeing the value priorities, urgency, all those things. We all have tried and tested tactics, if you like, of overcoming those objections and they're always very good.
Andy Whyte:
We are good at them. That's what makes us good salespeople, but we can only deploy those tactics if we have a champion to deploy them for us because otherwise we're just sort of talking into an empty room because who's going to take the good news we use and pass it onto other stakeholders for us?
Will Barron:
I think to double down on your analogy there, if you don't think there's a champion, you probably just haven't uncovered the champion and they've gone in and done all of a sudden hard work on your behalf and you're not even thanking them at the other end of it. Especially in a large corporate deal, nothing happens. There's so much status quo. There's so much emphasis on just not moving. There's the risk, there's the burden of taking on the…
Will Barron:
You might reduce your pain by 20% by using the product, but you're going to have to increase pain just for that short instance to get it implemented, to get everyone else on board. So there's probably always a champion there, you just weren't aware with them. I feel like I want to wrap up the show with this, Andy, in this thought that, and I'm going to use it, I love your LinkedIn analogy of scrolling through and it's all cold calls, cold emails, stupid polls about stupid nonsensical things.
Will Barron:
There's very few people talking about process, methodology further down the sales funnel and the buying journey. And the water is somewhat muddied and murky in the fact that now a lot of companies will have SDRs, BDRs, account management, customer success. Everything is getting split up, but the goal here isn't to generate leads. I don't care about number of leads. I care about number of customers out the over end of the process. Of course, the more leads we can generate, the more effectively that turn into customers, the better.
Will Barron:
But we get paid on people signing up to the product and then retaining them a lot of time. We don't get paid on the number of calls that we make, the number of emails that we send, and the number of people that we annoy with poorly qualified sales processes that just turn into junk in the CRM.
Parting Thoughts · [49:56]
Will Barron:
So with that, Andy, I appreciate you, mate. I appreciate everything that you're about. I appreciate these frameworks. I appreciate your knowledge. There's not been a question that I've thrown at you in this episode that you've not been able to answer. With that, tell us about the book, the training and where we can find out more about you, sir.
Andy Whyte:
Yeah. Well, thank you very much. That's very kind of you to say. So people looking to find out more, our proposition is very much around helping organisations to enable MEDDPICC in their teams. So for me you can Google MEDDICC, MEDDPICC and find blog posts that will tell you what the letters mean and what they stand for. That's LIKE scratching the surface of what actually it becomes to be a full organisation using MEDDPICC.
Andy Whyte:
And so what our proposition very much is about is giving everybody enough expertise about MEDDPICC, not just on the knowledge and the wisdom of how and what it is, but how to actually execute it. We talked a little bit about economic bio, how actionable tactics strategies you can use to bring MEDDPICC into your deals, into your teams so that it can become the common language.
Andy Whyte:
So like you just said there across SDRs, BDRs, AEs, CSMs, leadership, even go-to-market teams of product marketing, of marketing of all the teams surrounding the customer, they can use it as common language. So everyone is more cohesive, everyone knows exactly what they're looking at with customers and they're much more efficient as an organisation. In the best bit the customers prefer it as well because you orientate around the things that matter to them around value.
Andy Whyte:
So that's our proposition. There's a book which you can find on Amazon. We also have an online course called the MEDDPICC Master Class. But before, if you are just sort of thinking, well, this sounds interesting you just want to dip your toe to the water, we also have a YouTube channel as well which you can find lots more of me talking about this kind of stuff if that's what you're interested in.
Will Barron:
Amazing. So I'll link to all of that in the show to this episode over at salesman.org. With that, Andy, thank you for your time, your insights on this doubling down on the fact that I just fired a load of random questions at you that were basically nothing to do with qualification of MEDDICC and you went through them all absolutely seamlessly. So that shows your expertise in the space and with that I want to thank you again for joining us on the Salesman Podcast.
Andy Whyte:
Thank you, Will, and thank you for all you do for our industry.
How To Cold Call Successfully In 2022 | Salesman Podcast
Mar 11, 2022
Josh Braun helps salespeople book more meetings and reduce the chance of getting ghosted without them having to sell their soul. In this episode of the Salesman Podcast, Josh Braun explains his simple step-by-step framework for successful cold calling and rejection minimization.
You'll learn:
Sponsored by:
Free SalesCode assessment
Learn your strengths and weaknesses in an instant. Taken by over 10,000+ of your competitors. Don't get left behind.
Take the free assessment
Featured on this episode:
Host - Will Barron
Founder of Salesman.org
Guest - Josh Braun
Sales Training Expert
Hi. My name is Will, and welcome to The Salesman Podcast. On today's episode we're looking at how to cold call effectively. Today's guest is Josh Braun. Josh helps sales people book more meetings and reduce the chances of getting ghosted without you having to sell your soul. Josh has been on the show a bunch of times and there's a total value that's going to come at you in this episode, sales nation, and with that, Josh, welcome to the podcast.
Josh Braun:
Will, thanks for having me back. You are an energetic guy. I'm always pumped up at the beginning of that intro. I feel like I want to run a marathon, but I'll sit here and we'll do the podcast.
Will Barron:
So here's a question for you to pull the curtain back for the audience. Am I substantially more animated doing that intro than in the 10 minutes we chatted before the show? Is there a dramatic difference between the real Will and podcast Will?
Josh Braun:
Podcast Will and the real Will are similar.
Will Barron:
Well there you go.
Josh Braun:
They are similar. They're energetic, and positive, and you want more of them.
Is Cold Calling Still Effective in 2022? · [01:10]
Will Barron:
I don't know about that, especially not in this space. Maybe one Will per industry might be an appropriate number of us too before we just take over the planet. So with that, Josh, we'll jump into cold calling, and I want to dive into process, what we should be doing, in a second, but let's set up the topic here with somewhat of a cliché question that get gets asked every year, and we all know the answer to it because it's going to be a short episode if the answer is no. But is there still opportunity for straight up cold calling in 2022 as we record this, or do we need to use social selling, and cadences, and emails, and meeting people, knocking on doors to set up a cold call? Can we have success just picking up the phone and cold calling people right now in 2022?
“If the person that you're trying to get in front of has a phone number, then cold calling is a channel that can be effective for starting conversations with people. But can also be an ineffective channel depending on how you're making a cold call. All channels can be effective or ineffective. Emails can be really effective or ineffective. A movie can be amazing, but it could also bore you to tears. So it's never the medium really, it's how you're executing the medium, and if in fact that person can be contacted with that medium.” – Josh Braun · [01:40]
Josh Braun:
So if the person that you're trying to get in front of has a phone number, then cold calling is a channel that can be effective for starting conversations with people, but can also be an ineffective channel depending on how you're making a cold call. All channels can be effective or ineffective. Emails can be really effective or ineffective. Movie can be amazing, but it could also bore you to tears. So it's never the medium really, it's how you're executing the medium, and if in fact that person can be contacted with that medium. So if that person can be contacted and you are proficient or good, and we're going to talk about that on this podcast, then the phone is a good tool that you have in your toolbox. Is it the only tool that you have in your toolbox? No. It is one of many tools that you have in your toolbox for stacking the odds in your favour for starting a conversation with someone that you want to get in front of.
The Effectiveness of Using Cold Calls as the First Line of Contact During a Cold Outreach · [01:30]
Will Barron:
If we are pretty confident in our data and we've got a phone number, obviously ringing someone up can be the quickest way to go from A to B, ask a few questions, book that meeting, get it formally in the diary. So let's say we've got great data. Is the phone the first thing that we should do, or are there other steps to this process for the average salesperson who's consuming this in the average marketplace that they are selling into?
Josh Braun:
So if you're good on the phone and you have good data, and you have one more tool, which we're going to talk about in a second, I think the phone is a really good first tool to use. And the third missing piece to that I want to talk about briefly, let's assume that you're good and let's assume the person can be reached and you have good data. The third piece is the problem with traditional cold calling is you make 50 dials even if you have good data, and even if you have direct dials. And maybe if you're lucky, you talk to one or two people. You get phone trees, you get gatekeepers, the numbers are bad even if you have “good data,” some of them doesn't pick up.
Josh Braun:
That problem has been solved in a couple of different ways. One of the ways that I use is I use a service and what this service does is they pre-call the leads before you do. And they determine people that are most likely to pick up the phone. What that means for you is instead of you having two to three conversations for every 50 dials, you have 10 to 12 conversations for every 50 dials without adding any new technology to your tech stack or outstanding any annual contracts. The benefit of that is you can get better faster. You can get data faster, you can have more conversations. You can do it without that, it's just you're not as efficient. It just takes you longer. You need more people to do the same job. So that's the third piece of this is to have something in your stack, that's stacks the odds in your favours for actually talking to people that you want to actually talk to, so you're not sitting there dialling and not having conversations.
Will Barron:
So I want to get into what is good. How do we know if we're good? There's a lot of sales people listening who think that they're probably killer on the phone, and they probably suck. So we're getting into that in second. But just before you mention it, do you want to plug that software or because you purposely didn't name it then, or do you want to not name it on the show?
Josh Braun:
Sure. It's not software. So there's a gentleman that I work with. His name is Ryan Reisert, and the name of his service is called Phone Ready Leads. And it's a pay-per-use service. And again, he has a team of people that will pre-call the leads and increase your connect rates. So if you're struggling with low connect rates and you have good data, he might be someone to look into to be able to get you more at bats.
Are You Good at Striking Conversations with Cold Prospects? · [05:10]
Will Barron:
Cool. Right. Well, let me start this episode over at salesman.org as well. Okay, Josh. So how do we know whether this is objective or subjectively? How do we know if we're good on the phone? How do we know if this is something that we should be focusing on? How do we know if this is a skill that we should be leaning into? Because maybe is our competitive advantage in the marketplace?
“You can't get good at anything that you haven't been taught, and you can't get good at anything that you haven't deliberately practised.” – Josh Braun · [05:47]
Josh Braun:
So, well, you're good at doing these podcasts, but I would imagine when you first started doing the podcasts, you weren't as good as you are now because everything that you're good at now, you weren't as good as when you first began something. If you're a golfer, when you first started playing golf, you weren't as good as you are if you've been playing golf for three or four years. So you can't get good at anything that you haven't been taught, and you can't get good at anything that you haven't deliberately practised. So this process, and good is something that you can learn and practise. So we're going to talk a little bit about what good is on a cold call, but it's not something that you're born with, just like you're not born being a good golfer, and it's not something that's ever finished. Just like you're never finished being a good golfer.
Josh Braun:
It's an ongoing progress of learning and getting better. I would imagine the same thing with you as a podcast host. I've noticed, and I've been following you for a long time, you've gotten better with each episode because you're honing your skills. So for people that are listening, be patient and treat this just like learning any other skill. First, you have to know what good is. You have to be taught what good is, then you have to deliberately practise good and just be a little introspective. Observe how your calls are going, don't judge yourself and just start to think, “Hey, what did I do on that call? What do I want to focus on? How'd that feel?” And you will get better each day if you just work on those things.
How to Know If You’re Good at Cold Calling · [06:50]
Will Barron:
How do we know if we are good? And I agree what you're saying in that this is kaizen, this is continuous improvement. What worked in cold calling five years ago is not going to work now. Millennials are coming up in the marketplace. I'm 35, I'm in that age bracket, we are now starting to get a budget and perhaps we like to be approached differently than generations have come before us. So everything's constantly fluxing the marketplace, your skillset, even your mood and attitude and stuff during the day. So with that all said, how do we know whether we should be leaning into this or not? Because I guess that both leaned into our own skills and the marketplace that we're selling into as well.
“I don't believe that everyone has to be good at everything, but if you have an appetite for getting good at the phone, I think it's a million dollar skill. At least it's been in my experience and the people that I've worked with. But if you don't have an appetite for it at all, and you don't think it's a good channel, what I always say to people is, don't do it.” – Josh Braun · [07:48]
Josh Braun:
Yeah. I'm a big fan of playing to your strengths. So if you have people on your team that are really great at writing emails and they're getting good response rates, they love that, double down, let them do emails. If you have someone to that's good on the phone or has an appetite for being better on the phone or wants to learn how to improve being on the phone, let those people make the calls. So I don't believe that everyone has to be good at everything, but if you have a appetite for getting good at the phone, I think it's a million dollar skill. At least it's been in my experience and the people that I've worked with. But if you don't have an appetite for it at all, and you don't think it's a good channel, what I always say to people is, don't do it.
“My job isn't to change someone who doesn't have an appetite for wanting to change, my job is to work with people who have an appetite for wanting to get better in a particular area.” – Josh Braun · [08:18]
Josh Braun:
I get emails all the time that say, “People don't respond to voicemails and they never pick up the phone. Cold calling and voicemails suck, I would never use them.” And what I say is, don't do those things, because my job isn't to change someone who doesn't have an appetite for wanting to change, my job is to work with people who have an appetite for wanting to get better in this particular area. And we can certainly talk about that on this podcast, what does good mean with regards to a cold call and get you on the path, but you have to have an appetite for it first. You don't want to force people into something.
Josh Braun:
This is a big problem that I have when I'm training sales organisations, is oftentimes people are told you have to go to sales training. And a lot of people don't want to be there and guess what? They're not engaged, they're not going to get anything out of it. So I think you have to have this mindset of, “Hey, I want to get better at this. I want to do this,” and then you can lean into it a little bit more.
The Best Cold Callers in Sales Have These Distinct Traits · [09:02]
Will Barron:
So how do we know if we are good, Josh. Is this a, we make 50 dials, we get on so many calls and we book so many meetings. Is this a case of, we can use a cold call we know objectively or people in the organisation that we use cold calls to shorten our sales cycle by two months? Because we want to improve, and I want to give the audience a way to say, “Well, okay, I'm making progress.” How do we measure where we are, measure where we're at? And then how do we know that we're winning?
Josh Braun:
Yeah. So, we'll talk a little bit about what a good cold call is in a second, but the way you'll know when it's really simple is how does it feel? So when you're connecting with people and you have a conversation, how did that experience feel for you? You don't have to judge yourself. You don't have to score yourself. Those things might bum you out a little bit, but if you just are a little introspective and say, “Hey, that call felt a little wonky, what was it about it that felt wonky? It seems like I was talking a little faster than I normally talk.”
Josh Braun:
So that's an observation. I'm going to assess the call. I'm not going to judge my call. I'm going to assess the call, and I'm going to say, “I was talking a little fast, maybe next time what I'm going to work on, I'm going to focus on slowing down my speech a little bit. What did I notice on this call? It looks like I was talking over the prospect. I'm going to slow my speech down and I'm going to pause for two seconds after the prospect's done talking, and I'm going to work on that a little bit.” That's going to get you much further in terms of progress in getting better than beating yourself up, telling yourself all the things you did wrong, and that you suck. You don't suck, you just haven't been patient enough and practised. So shift from judging to assessing and observing.
Josh Braun:
And I have found for myself and for the people that I coach, when you have that mentality of just observing and being thoughtful about what you're observing and assessing, you get better because you start to hone in on things. And if you're a coach, you might say, “What do you think about slowing down your speech a little bit?” “What do you think about maybe pausing for a couple seconds when someone's done talking?” And then just focus on one thing at a time, just like you would golfing or playing tennis, or the piano, you will get better just by doing that.
Assessing the Effectiveness of Your Cold Calls and Filling in the Gaps · [11:13]
Will Barron:
Sure. So is this a first strategy then? I'm making this up the top of my head, but it seems like it could be appropriate, what you're saying here, Josh. We have a piece of paper next to us as we run through our calls, we don't need to show this to anyone. This is our document. Perhaps we write down one thing that went well, one thing that we want to improve on, and then we can see if we are becoming good, if we can eventually see if we are good then perhaps there's a lot more positives than there are negatives on the page. That might be comparing week one to week 27. Is that a fair way to go in about measuring our success, our journey to success, and also whether we are good or not. Is that a fair way to go about doing this?
Josh Braun:
Yeah. And I wouldn't even focus on the negative. So, well, let me ask you a question. I don't know. Do you play golf?
Will Barron:
No.
Josh Braun:
Okay. What do you think the first question is that someone asks someone when they come off the golf course?
Will Barron:
Your score.
Josh Braun:
What's your score, right? That's the first thing a lot of times people will ask a sales rep too, “What's your score?” How many meetings did you book? A better question is what did you learn? Because when you talk about what do you learn, you're going to get better. You're going to say, “Well, I learned that stroke didn't feel so good. I got a little stiff here. I'm going to need to work on my hips a little bit.” So I wouldn't even focus on anything you really did “wrong” because it's going to get you into this negative space, perhaps. I would focus on just observing and assessing, what did you observe? How did it make you feel? And what do you want to focus on to make you feel a little bit better. And just pick one thing and you will just get better.
Josh Braun:
The meetings are a byproduct of just getting a little bit better. You don't finish a marathon, you train deliberately for four or five months, and the marathon finishing is a byproduct of the training. And if you just don't beat yourself up and focus on the negatives, which takes away from that, and you just focus on assessing and observing, you will get better. And you'll also feel tremendously better as well about yourself.
How to Get Better at Anything · [13:13]
Will Barron:
So I've never run marathon, I know you do triathlons in that, Josh. I've done a bunch of half marathons. Surely though, to use this analogy, you still set a goal of, well, I'm going to run so many miles this week, or I'm going to lead up to the event and then pull back for the few runs beforehand. So we still need to know what good is, what success is and still move towards the target, right? I just want to counteract your point here of, you don't run 10 feet and then have slightly sore toes, and then sit and ponder about your toes and not initial run, do you?
Josh Braun:
No, I think, in that analogy you might go for a run and maybe you were able to only run 15 or 20 steps and you might say to yourself, “Well, how did that run feel? That really hurt. That really sucked.” And then I might say, “Well, what else might be true? The run did suck,” you only ran 10 feet, and it did hurt, but what else might be true is you just started running. And anytime you start running in the beginning, it's going to hurt a little bit, right? And so hurting when you run is a natural part of getting better. So on a cold call, it might be the same thing. Well, that really went dicey. I spoke to three people, and all of those calls were negative. They didn't really go anywhere.
Josh Braun:
Lots of fact they were negative. But another way to look at it is they were negative, but you also just started cold calling, and you've only had 15 connects in your whole life. And anytime you pick up a guitar and start playing, it's going to hurt your fingers. And that little shift, it might seem very insignificant, but it changes the wiring in the brain and motivates you to want to learn more rather than focusing on the suck. And so what I'm suggesting here is that there's always multiple lenses to view these things from. There's the, “Oh my God, my toes hurt lens,” but there's also the lens of, “I just started running,” and my toes are going to hurt a little bit because I haven't run before.
Josh Braun:
This movie was terrible about these cheerleaders. It was so thin and uninteresting. However, if I asked someone who was a cheerleader about that same movie, they might say, I found it fascinating because I used to be a cheerleader. You're in a car driving, and you flip off the person that cut you off. That person's such a jerk. The other lens is, “Well, maybe that person's in a rush to the hospital, I hope they're okay.” And I think in sales we have a tendency to only look at it through that one lens and we beat ourselves up instead of building ourselves up.
Will Barron:
Sure. I guess there's different ways to look at it. I know myself when I've got to do these kind of things and when I'm learning new skills, I don't respond to what you're describing, Josh. I respond to the stick of, “Hey, just get 50 calls done. It's going to suck, it's fine. After 50, it's going to suck less, and then you just keep going.” And the discipline for me is the thing that gets me through this. And then judging what's good, what's bad, and documenting that result. Then I ended up with a feedback loop of well, the first 25 sucked, then there was one that was great. Then 10 sucked, then there was one that was great. Then it is five sucked, and there's one that's great. So with that said, we've quite a lot the emotional side of this now. Hopefully the audience can pick an angle on this, of how they're going to get through the suck, so whether it's discipline, whether it is being introspective and documenting either mentally or on the page what they have improved upon and they can build that feedback loop for themselves.
The Step by Step Framework for Successful Cold Calling · [16:38]
Will Barron:
Is there a step by step framework? Is there a step by step process of what you should be saying on a cold call? Because I feel like if there is, then we can nail that, a lot of this other stuff just disappears because most people can sit down and say, “Right, I can make five of these calls right now.” Then obviously you make five and you can carry on for the rest of the morning, if that's what you choose. I think the hardest bit of a lot of this is that initial momentum and making that first call of the day. And obviously this has helped with structure. So do you have a structure that you teach, Josh? Is there a way to go about this that you can share with the audience?
Josh Braun:
Yeah, let's actually start it with step number one and step number one is often missed because people want the script, but there's a really important step one, which is, you have to stand for something. Let me just tell you a quick story. Well, you might know about this product P90X. Does that ring a bell, or am I ageing myself. Do you remember that product?
Will Barron:
I've never used it, but yeah, I only do training with barbells, but I understand the product, a training from home high intensity training, right?
Josh Braun:
Yeah. I don't know if you know this, but when they first started marketing that product, they did about 15 versions of that commercial, and they bombed, they couldn't sell any P90X DVDs. And then Tony Horton, who's the guy who's in the video, and the creator had this brilliant idea. And this was his idea. And you can see this on YouTube if you Google it. It's a 35, 45, second black and white thing. And he said, “The problem with traditional work outs is that you do the same thing over and over again. You lift the same weight's the same way and your muscles plateau. They don't get any bigger. In fact, they get smaller and you don't make any progress. What you need is muscle confusion.” Now that's a word he made up. “And when you confuse your muscles, when you lift heavy weights one day and light weights the other day, and you do this exercise this way and this exercise that way, you confuse your muscles and then they grow.”
“When cold calling, you have to know something that your prospects don't know that can hurt them.” – Josh Braun · [18:45]
Josh Braun:
What he's doing here, is he's having a point of view. He's standing for something. The reason I'm bringing this up is that everybody that you call, no matter what you sell is working out today somehow. They have weights and they're working out a certain way. You have to know something that they don't know that can hurt them. So what is it that you know that they don't know? So if they kept working out today the same exact way, what would happen? I'll tell you another story that illustrates this point, because it's so important.
Josh Braun:
Several years ago, I was in the mall with my wife and I did not need anything. I was keeping her company. We were going to grab dinner afterwards. I walked into a Fit2Run store for no reason. So if the store associate said, “We got these new sneakers,” I'm going to be like, “Not interested, got new sneakers.” If she said, “Can I help you?” I'm going to say, “Not interested, bad sneakers.” But she didn't do any of those things. She looked down at my sneakers. She said, “Are you a runner?” I said, “Yes.” She said, “What distance?” I said, “I'm training for my first marathon.”
Josh Braun:
And she said, “Have you ever had a running gate test?” And I said, “What's that?” And moments later, I'm on a treadmill in the Fit2Run store. She freezes the frame, zooms in on my ankles and says, “Look, your ankles are over pronating.” I'm like, “Yes, so what?” She said, “If you're running in sneakers that are not made for pronated feet, you can get injured on long distance runs and get sidelined, get shins splints and runners knee. If you would like, I could look at your sneakers to see if they're made for pronated feet.” And about seven minutes later, I'm buying new sneakers and insoles because she had a point of view. She's standing for something. So step number one, and this is where a lot of sales people just say, “Well, I got better sneakers,” is what is it that you know that your prospect doesn't know. That's step one.
How to Overcome the Zone of Resistance When Cold Calling Prospects · [20:10]
Will Barron:
So let's stop there for a second. If you got an example of this, Josh, I'm assuming with your social media presence, you don't do a lot of outbound calls. I'm sure all your training is inbound, right? Same with us. A lot of what we do is inbound. If you were to do an outbound cold call though to a VP of sales, a potential training client, what would you stand for? What would be an example of how you'd implement this?
Josh Braun:
So, I love how to start this exercise with the problem with. So again, and I'm [inaudible 00:20:43] this to our sales trainer. But Steve Jobs 2007, iconic iPhone speech. If you haven't seen that, you must watch. One of his iconic lines was, “the problem with smartphones is,” and it wasn't just one smartphone. He had them all listed on the screen. At the time the Nokia, the Palm, the Trail, the Motorola, all that stuff. He goes, “The problem with smartphones is they're not that smart. It's these keys that are fixed in plastic. Well, every application wants a different set of keys, so it just doesn't work. Interesting, it worked like five minutes ago.” That's the point of view. That's the perspective. So for me, I would say something like this, “The problem with traditional cold calling is that prospects are in the zone of resistance when they hear sales pressure.” You start to pitch your product and they pull away.
Josh Braun:
It's the same reason when you're in the mall and someone says from a kiosk, “Can I ask you a question,” you turn around and walk. You're afraid of the pitch. Prospects feel that way all the time. So what you need is an approach that ditches the pitch. Now what you're hearing when I do this Will, is people nodding their heads. Going, “Yeah, I've been in the mall.” “Yeah, I see that ditch the pitch,” and the brain naturally goes to, “What do you have?” What's the answer to that. We're going to get on that in this podcast, but that's how I position when I do outbound, that's the story that I have in my head. I don't do a cold call like that, but in my head I'm like, “That's the Tony Horton version of what I do.”
Josh Braun:
It's this idea that traditional cold calling is all about the pitch, and the value proposition and overcoming objections. And yet when you do that, people go into what I call the zone of resistance. It's a natural reflex reaction to sales pressure. It's why you tell someone in a department store you're just looking and literally buying something five minutes later. You don't want the pressure. And so people will say to me, “Well, what do you do?” And now we're into the next part that we're going to be talking about.
Will Barron:
Perfect. Okay. So that is written down, it's on a plaque, it's on our desk in front of us and it's a constant reminder, I guess, for us at salesman.org, we make selling simple. Selling's over complicated, it's complicated with tools, with processes, with people, with ideas, with management, who haven't sold anything in 30 years trying to teach you how to one system or another. So we make selling simple. So I've got it on a post-it note. There we go, Josh. I've got it on a post-it note. It's stuck on my laptop to remind me. That's step one, what's step two?
Why Cold Calling is More Like an Infomercial · [23:00]
Josh Braun:
So like what you said there, and I want to be very clear, this is like an infomercial. If you're saying to yourself it's simple, that's too generic. I can't see that infomercial in my head. So this exercise I called infomercial, you should be able to see the black and white version of the infomercial. So right now, today, when people get sales training, they're using seven different mechanisms. And let me show you the problem with these seven different mechanisms. They're from the '80s, and therefore buyers react this way. The problem with traditional knives is they go doll, and when you slice a tomato, look what happens, spurt all over your white shirt. What you need is this Ginsu thing. So I want to stress that this is an exercise that you gloss over. Most people that I talk to can't pass the infomercial test. And the litmus test is, can I actually see it?
Josh Braun:
I can't see simple. It's not crispy. I know you have this positioning. Perfect, Will. We can delve into this. But can you actually see it? Can you observe it? Can you see the movie in your head? Don't do product training, do problem training, get a really good understanding of what's sucked in your prospect's life before they switched, and feel that. And it's a feeling, like, “Oh my God, that tomato, it's splatted all over that white shirt. That's awful. What do we have?” Well, we got this thing called a Ginsu knife. “What is that?” It cuts cans and tomatoes perfectly forever without having to be sharpened. “That's awesome.” Sure. So I just wanted to punctuate that before we go to the next step.
Will Barron:
Well, look, let's spend 30 seconds on this. You can help us refine it. So maybe it's not visual. But when I share that with people, you use the word feeling, this feeling kit. Most sales people that I speak to, and obviously not everyone's a fit for our product and training, but most sales people I speak to, most sales leadership, they are overwhelmed with the training in the marketplace. They're overwhelmed with the sales stack, they're being bombarded by… At this point now, they weren't a few years ago, but billion dollar companies with big advertising budgets. And yet they're tuning into this like pleb podcast, right? We get 700,000 downloads a month and people are tuning to this way more than any podcast from every sales technology company or any sales training company.
Will Barron:
So people have that rapport with me when I speak to them, typically before I pick up the phone. So when I say we make selling simple, we use training frameworks to take all the pain out and add process to your sales team's delivery, that's what I pitch. How would you humbly help me refine that?
Cold Calling 101: Always Start with a Problem · [25:25]
Josh Braun:
So I love that, because you started with the problem, right? If you notice, if you're listening to this, and of course you're listening to this, if you're listening to this, that Will started with a black and white version. They're overwhelmed by all these… Imagine the kitchen analogy. They're using 10 or 15 of these tools to grow with. You got a spatula, you got a fork, you got a scrapper, you got all this stuff. It's a lot to handle, you got to go keep running back and forth to get the right tool. You got to clean seven tools and everyone's going to be nodding their head. I call it the head nod. Just like what Will did. Yeah. And then brain is naturally going to go, “Well, what do you have?” “Well, we got this tool. It's an all in one tool. It's seven barbecue tools in one. So you only have one to clean, and it's right there, handy for you whenever you want to grill.”
Josh Braun:
That's essentially what Will is saying here, to use a grill analogy is that he has instead of using nine or 10 things and having these things be confusing and having a bunch of stuff that doesn't talk to each other, you've got one thing and it's really easy to use and simple to clean. It's the contrast that Will did, but most people have a time with this because they've been focused on the after version. But just like P90X, if they just showed the person with the six pack abs, that doesn't really hit you unless you see the before version when they're about 40 or 50 pounds heavier. So I thought you did that really well, Will.
Crucial Assumptions You Should Never Make in Sales · [26:52]
Will Barron:
Thank you. I appreciate that. Okay. So if that's step one. I'm conscious of time, Josh, so we might have to rattle through some of these. Give us step two.
“When you assume that everyone's a fit for what you have, what ends up happening is people go into the zone of resistance because you're going to try to be talking people into things, and pitching everyone, and thinking that you're a fit for everyone. So instead, shift away from that and discover if the person has a problem that you could potentially help with, rather than assuming.” – Josh Braun · [27:12]
Josh Braun:
Okay. Step two will be really brief. Of course you think that the person you're calling can benefit from the thing that you have, that they have a problem, that their training and they're plateaued, but you don't know until you talk to them. So step two is letting go of assumptions, and detach them from the outcome. Because when you assume that everyone's a fit for what you have, what ends up happening is people go into the zone of resistance, because you're going to try to be talking people into things, and pitching everyone, and thinking that you're a fit for everyone. So instead shift away from that and discover if the person has a problem that you could potentially help with, rather than assuming.
Josh Braun:
The mantra here is, I'm for some people, but I'm not for everyone. That intent is going to change what you say, because your thoughts, what you think going into the call, changes what comes out of your mouth. So step two is detaching from the outcome and letting go of the assumptions and testing to see if the person has a problem, rather than assuming they have a problem. And now we'll get into the actual framework. But those two things are really strong foundational elements.
Will Barron:
Sure. So, this is prior to picking up the phone, we are focusing on these two things, right?
Josh Braun:
Yes.
Why Role Play is Such a Crucial Aspect of Improving Your Cold Calling Outcomes · [28:13]
Will Barron:
Cool. Okay. So we are in the right mindset, are there to diagnose potentially a problem, and then book a meeting. We're conscious of that, Josh. What do we do when we pick up the phone and it starts ringing and our heart starts going, “Oh, crap. I should just do something now. I thought I've done some work, but now I'm actually going to do the work.”
Josh Braun:
Let's go through a real cold call. Let's role play it. I'm going to just put myself on the spot here. And I'm going to make a cold call to Will. And were going [crosstalk 00:28:30]-
Will Barron:
Sure. I'll be a small business owner, right?
Josh Braun:
Yeah. No, you be you. And we're going to go through this, and we haven't rehearsed this, so this will be a good process. And we're going to go in and out of role play, and I'm going to dissect what's going on. So just to set this up, we mentioned at the beginning of the call, that when we start to pitch at the beginning of a call, it feels like those mall kiosk people. So what you're going to hear is no pitch. You're going to hear me being a little interested in how will is getting a particular job done today to see if there might be an opening, and we're going to save the pitch if they're even is one for the end. So we're going to walk you through four steps. And the first step you probably heard of bazillion times before, but I'm a big believer in it is we want to get Will's permission to talk.
Josh Braun:
Now, why is that? Really briefly, if I told Will I would pick him up at 5:00 for dinner and I didn't show up until six, I would feel bad because I'm incongruent. My actions are incongruent with my words. So when someone says, “Sure, I have a second,” they're more likely to hear us out for part two. You could think of this as four little levels of a video game, and we're going to be asking for permission to get to level two. So Will picks up the phone, and in a very calm voice, I might say something like this. And there's a lot of ways to do this. “Hey, Will. My name is Josh. We've never spoken before. You have no idea who I am; complete stranger here, but I was hoping you could help me out for a moment. Do you have two minutes?
Will Barron:
Sure. What's up my friend. What's up Josh?
Josh Braun:
Okay. So what did I do here? So I'm using a time commitment, so Will knows this isn't going to be an hour. I'm asking for help because people are wired to help, and I'm using a tonality that's not, “Hey, Will, this is Josh, can you help me out for a moment?” Kind of calm, because when you're calm, you're more inviting. So, that's going to be level one. And then people are going to say, “Sure,” about 70 or 80% of the time. And then what I'm going to do is this I'm going to see if Will, is even the right person that I need to be speaking with. Because even though you've done a bunch of research, this person might not even work at the company anymore, they might not go there anymore. So in a very humble way, I'm going to say this, “Will, are you still the person that's involved with getting sponsors for your podcasts? Or is that someone else since you've gotten so big?”
Will Barron:
That is me, Josh. For the purpose of this role play it's me, but do not email me about sponsorships anyone who's listened to this episode. But yes, Josh that's me. I deal with that.
Josh Braun:
Okay. So that's step two is, am I talking to the right person? And notice the phraseology? “It seems like it,” it looks like. That implies that I've done a little research. Now, one of two things is going to happen there. You're either going to get the response that Will gave you, which is, “Yeah, that's me,” or “I'm retired.” And don't you want to know that at the beginning of the call rather than going through your pitch? Or “I don't do that at all. That's not me.” In which case we could talk about another path if we have some time, but we'll go through the happy path first. You can see the big picture here. So Will's just going to say, “Yeah, that's me.”
Josh Braun:
I'm going to go to step three now. And step three is what's called… So step one, permission. Step two, person, is it the right person? And then step three is what I call poke and peel. I'm going to be poking around a little bit to see how Will's getting the job today done, and I'm going to peel the onion a little bit. I might say something like this. “So Will, how are you currently going about getting sponsors today? Are you like reaching out via cold email? Are people mostly coming to you, or is it a combination of both?”
Will Barron:
It's typically inbound leads, Josh.
Josh Braun:
Inbound leads, just inbound, or are you doing any outbound as well, or it's all just inbound?
Will Barron:
It is all inbound, but I would love to have the time or the help to do some outbound stuff as well. Josh, I feel like we're not at full capacity, and we need a little bit of some secret source here, mate.
Josh Braun:
I'm sorry. Not at full capacity?
Will Barron:
Correct.
Josh Braun:
It seems like I'm missing something here. When you say not at full capacity.
Will Barron:
We have ad available.
Josh Braun:
Okay. So look what I'm doing here. So the poking was, I'm asking a little bit about how he's doing the job done today. And the peeling was notice I use a mirror, and I know you and I are big Chris Foss fans. “I'm sorry, not at full capacity?” So I'm poking around a little bit. And now I'm going to shift to asking the question that's going to get Will to think a little bit differently. And that might sound like this. “Well, I know you've been doing this for a while. I'm sure you've batted this around, but have you considered using a company in addition to what you're doing now, to be able to find high value sponsors to fill that ad space without you having to actually spend any overtime doing it? I'm sure you've gone down that road before.”
Will Barron:
I have considered it, but not gone down that road before, Josh. We're just so busy, mate.
Josh Braun:
Okay. So pause here. The question is, “Have you considered,” right? “I'm sure you've thought of this before,” this is for captivated IQ. “I'm sure you've thought of this before. Have you considered automating your commission payouts? I'm sure you've batted this around a little bit.” I'm saying the phrase, “have you thought about this?” “I'm sure you have thought about this” to not hurt Will's ego, and then I'm asking a question that's going to get the prospect to think a little differently about how they're currently getting the job done today. So, “But Josh, have you considered incorporating a Kinstretch into your triathlon training?” “What's Kinstretch?” It's a approach that's used to make sure you don't get injured. It's complimentary.
Why You Should Never Hurt a Prospect's Ego · [34:07]
Josh Braun:
I always want to compliment what Will is doing. Notice I'm not asking Will to rip and replace anything. I'm saying we can compliment this. “Have you considered this.” And notice he's leaning into this. At some point in the call, what ends up happening oftentimes is Will says, “Well, I'm sorry, what do you do? What's your deal?” And then he's asking me the question. If he doesn't, I might say, “No, it sounds like this might be a fit. Will, I know I'm calling out of the blue here,” step four, going to pop the question, “Would you be open to investing,” not spending, but investing, “15 minutes later this week so I can share a few ideas with you about how you can generate these sponsors, but without you having to actually lift a finger?” What I'm doing is, I'm proactively to Will [crosstalk 00:34:48].
Will Barron:
That sounds incredible, Josh. We're in. I'm all in. Sold. Send me the contract, mate.
Josh Braun:
We wish all the calls were that easy. But what I'm doing is I'm proactively addressing your objection. We only work for people that are doing inbound, and without you having to lift the finger, right? We're only talking to people that have accountants already. So someone wouldn't be able to say, “Well, we have an accountant for that.” We're talking to people that have accountants about an approach to obtain employee retention credits that typical accountants miss. I have no idea if that's the case for you, but is that something you've considered working with a specialty accounting that only specialises in ERC credits? Well, how does that work?
Josh Braun:
“I know I'm calling out of the blue here,” “would it make sense to invest 15 minutes, maybe Thursday or Friday, so you can see what your options are.” Look at the phraseology. So you can review what your options are. It's not assumptive, so it's going to lower the zone of resistance. The words really matter here. I know we're going through it quick, but each word is very deliberate so as not to create any pressure on will. I am always listening for sales pressure, and I'm going to defuse it at every chance I get, and I'm going to try to prevent it from happening by being very selective with my words.
Rejection is at the Core of Cold Calling. Get Used to It · [36:34]
Will Barron:
Josh, I did a full share about this the other day, so we don't need to go too deep into it. But if we communicate the way you just communicated, and clearly with your background in teaching sales, training VP of sale, you are perhaps 20 years ahead of some of the audience here. So we have to burst some of that in mind, right? And I know you've got trading products, which we'll touch on in a second where the audience can learn some of this perhaps, but say we get 80, 90% of Josh Braun's skillset here. Should cold calling be a nice, simple, and almost enjoyable activity for salespeople to do when they're confident in what they're saying, when they are unconsciously competent in the wording, so the brain isn't going a million miles an hour trying to source things out in real time. Should cold calling be something that maybe you don't look forward to it, but that you do when you end up on having a nice few conversations over the course of 20, 30, 40 dials, you end up potentially really sparking a few conversations and helping people?
“The trouble salespeople get into is when they attach their self worth to the outcome. No one's rejecting you as a person, they're just rejecting what you're saying.” – Josh Braun · [37:44]
Josh Braun:
Yeah, it's a tremendous amount. It's a great question. And when you say enjoyable, I enjoy going to the beach, I enjoy biking. It is work, and there is going to be a lot of resistance, because of the nature of the dynamic. The prospect knows that a salesperson has a vested interest. That's the whole problem what I'm suggesting with this approach is that we're trying to lower that zone of resistance. And when we do that well, and we have the right intent where we're okay either way, of course we care about the prospect, but we're indifferent to the outcome. The trouble salespeople get into is when they attach their self worth to the outcome. No, one's rejecting you as a person, they're just rejecting what you're saying. And so when you do that, it's almost like I feel like I'm on a golf course, and I'm calm and I'm swinging the club, and I'm going to the next hole. And there's a bunch of holes.
Josh Braun:
The way I view cold calling is like you're walking down a street with a bunch of brown stones, and there's a door up there, and there's four steps, and there's prospects standing in front of the steps, and there's unlimited steps, unlimited brown stones. And I'm going to approach people, strike up a conversation with them and see if they want to invite me up the steps. And if they don't, that's okay because back to the mindset, I'm for some people, but I'm not for everyone. And I'll be really calm, and I have ways to diffuse sales pressure. I'm just going to keep going to the next brownstone.
“You don't control how people respond to you, you only control what you say. And when you let go of things you don't control, it changes the game, not just in sales, but in your life as well.” – Josh Braun · [38:40]
Josh Braun:
So it's not so much it's enjoyable, but it's peaceful and calming and you're not going to get anxious. And you're not going to have this debilitating feeling of rejection when you adopt this mindset because there's nothing to be rejected about. You don't control how people respond to you, you only control what you say. And when you let go of things you don't control, it changes the game, not just in sales, but in your life as well.
Parting Thoughts · [38:50]
Will Barron:
Amazing stuff. I'll wrap up with that, mate. For people who want to know more, because we've only obviously briefly scratched the surface of this in today's episode of Sales Broadcast, tell us where we can find more about you and then any training that you offer as well that is relevant to the audience on the back of this conversation.
Josh Braun:
Yeah. So I've got a joshbraun.com/shop. You can find my stuff or joshbraun.com/learn, you can read about a lot of content or on LinkedIn.
Will Barron:
Amazing. I was too slow on the button then to go back to the two boxes. I thought there was going to be a longer pitch phrase. Succinct, very like you, Josh. I appreciate that, mate. I appreciate you, appreciate your insights, and I want to thank you again for joining us on The Salesman Podcast,
Josh Braun:
Ditch the pitch. Well, ditch the pitch. Always a pleasure.
Why People Buy – The 5 Levels Of Value
Mar 10, 2022
Do you know why your prospects buy?
In this post I’m going to explain why your prospects buy products by sharing the 5 step value ladder.
The Value Ladder
There are only 5 levels of value that you can offer a potential customer. When you offer your customers levels 1,2 or 3 of value you are replaceable. They do not care about you. Your customers will screw you over whenever they can.
At levels 4 and 5 of the value ladder however, which I’ll show you in a minute, your prospects will be begging you to work with them.
At level 5 the customer will give you every single penny they have, to keep doing business with you. They will beg you for your product!
So would you like to be in the position of having your customers begging to give you money, rather than you begging them? Then let's start at level 1 on the value ladder.
Level 1 – Meet specifications
The first level on the value ladder is when you meet the specifications laid out by your prospect.
This is where a prospect is looking for X feature and by chance your product happens to have this feature. Unfortunately, there is nothing to differentiate you from your competition at this level and so wining this type of business comes down to dumb luck most of the time.
Trying to hit a sales target when you’re only providing level 1 value is like putting the lottery on and then standing outside their offices, with your hand out, hoping that you win the jackpot.
So let's move up the value ladder, to level two. Level two is where you provide a good product to the customer.
Level 2 – Good product
This is the level of value that everyone thinks they’re sat at. Everyone thinks that their products are great but, in most markets, again everyone’s products are pretty good and so there is very little differentiation. And so again… winning business here usually comes down to dumb luck and the ability to follow up with a prospect often until they relent and give you their money. That’s a tough way to sell each day, right?
Level three is when things start to change. Level three is when we start to remove luck from our selling environment and replace it with hustle. We’re at a level 3 of value when we provide a customised service.
Level 3 – Customised service
This is where we start to differentiate ourselves in the mind of the buyer. This is when they start to say “Oh, Salesman.org is more expensive than reading a few sales books but the training is personalised for me and so I don’t mind paying more”.
So, how many times have you battled with prospects on price? They’ll bring up your competitors. They’ll say “I ain't signing no contracts” at the last minute to force you to discount… I’ve been there and it sucks.
That pain starts to disappear at level three on the value ladder as in the mind of the buyer, you’re now different to all of the other that are companies pitching them. You now, finally have an advantage.
But things really start to fall into the sellers favour though when we get to level four which is reliance.
Level 4 – Reliance
When you get to this level of the value ladder the buyer-seller dynamic changes. This usually happens in one of two ways –
A) Built on top of your product
A current customer builds part of their business on top of your product. For example lots of companies use Salesforce.com to store customer data and then build their own marketing and sales systems on top of their platform.
If you’re Salesforce.com in this situation you know that there would be so much damn pain for their customer to move to someone else that they’ve basically got the contracts locked in until their customer goes bust.
At this point it’d be easier to stop Donald Trump saying stupid things than it would be for a competitor to break into your account and displace you.
B) They NEED you for growth
Alternatively, you can reach the reliance level of the value ladder by selling into a new organisation, when they need your product so desperately to grow, that without you, their business is likely going to fail.
An example of this would be selling financial services to a startup who needs the influx of capital otherwise their business is going to die. This again makes them reliant on you.
Again, at this point, the buyer wants to work with you, as much as you want the commissions of working with them.
The final level, the God tier of value in B2B sales is level 5, multiple reliance.
Level 5 – Multiple reliance
This is where I’d aim to be with my medical device customers when I sold surgical camera systems.
Sure it’d be great to have 10 operating rooms in general surgery using our equipment. But then when gynecology and urology also become reliant on your equipment and support something magical starts happening…
You find yourself having meetings with the CFO of the hospital, rather than department managers. You find yourself in the middle of conversations about expanding the hospital and their potential equipment needs, rather than hearing about an influx of cash and having to cold call people to learn more…
When you get to level 5 of the value ladder you become a businessperson, not a pesky salesperson, who is always pestering and chasing people down.
Opportunities come to you; your prospects WANT to work with you. Selling becomes fun! How would that change your day to day?
So Will, that’s all well and good, thanks for the theory random 5 level theory… But how the hell do I get to this magical level 5 on your stupid value ladder? That doesn’t even really look like a ladder?
Climbing The Value Ladder
Well if you’re not starting at level 2 which is having a good product the answer is simple. Change jobs. Stop making life hard for yourself. Find the best product in your industry and start selling their sales management on hiring you.
So assuming you’re starting at level two of having a good product, how do we get to level three and offer a customised service?
Lets use the example of me selling medical devices. Clearly I wasn’t able to customise my products to my customers needs. Everything I sold had thousands of hours of research, development and testing before it was even allowed to be marketed and so I didn’t have any leverage to customise at the product level.
So, instead, I customised the service I provided to my customers.
I’d explain the value that I, personally, would add to the prospects in their surgical education, training, hospital business problem solving and more. And honestly, this was all I really needed to differentiate myself from a lot of my competition.
Most of my competition were lazy. They wanted to get in, make a sale and get out. So I took a lot of their business by making the extra effort to play on level 3 of the value ladder.
To get into levels 4 and 5 of the value ladder you need to up your game.
The simplest way to put this is, is that at levels 4 and 5, you must solve your prospects business issues.
This means that YOU personally must be able to –
A) Make introductions
Make introductions within your industry to get your prospects in front of people that can help them move forward.
B) Provide insights
Provide valuable industry insights that the prospect can’t get elsewhere.
For example with the sales leaders that I work with who have their teams in Salesman.org, I can share an incredible amount of information from our SalesCode Assessment data on what traits they should look for when hiring.
C) Tie the wins
What I mean by tying your prospects wins with yours is that you should be looking for ways to help them improve their own customers experiences. If you can do this and improve their revenues directly, you’ll become indispensable to them.
And finally then to go from level 4 to 5 you need to become dispensable across multiple departments within the organisation.
It’s all of course easier said than done but once you retrain your selling brain to focus on the level of value you can give to prospects, rather than focusing on what you can take from them, you’ll find that more and more people want to work with you and the game gets easier.
Summary
To have success in modern sales, you must start at a value level of 3. Then focus on solving real business problems, personally, to get to level 4, then finally do this across multiple departments in the prospects company to become a level 5 seller and really start to win.
Successful Cold Email Trends for 2022 | Salesman Podcast
Mar 09, 2022
Jason Bay is the Chief Prospecting Officer at Blissful Prospecting. He’s on a mission to help reps and sales teams turn complete strangers into paying customers. In this episode of the Salesman Podcast, Jason explains what is and what isn’t working in the world of cold email sales outreach in 2022.
You'll learn:
Sponsored by:
Free SalesCode assessment
Learn your strengths and weaknesses in an instant. Taken by over 10,000+ of your competitors. Don't get left behind.
Take the free assessment
Featured on this episode:
Host - Will Barron
Founder of Salesman.org
Guest - Jason Bay
Chief Prospecting Officer
Hi, I'm Will, and welcome to the Salesman Podcast. On today's episode, we're diving into successful cold email trends for 2022. And our guest is Jason Bay. Jason is the chief prospecting officer over at Blissful Prospecting. He's on a mission to help reps and sales teams turn complete strangers into paying customers. And with that, Jason, welcome to the show.
Jason Bay:
I'm excited to be back, Will.
Will Barron:
I'm excited to have you back on, mate.
Jason Bay:
We were just talking. It's been a couple of years since we jammed last on a podcast, so I'm looking forward to being back.
Will Barron:
A couple of years. You are perfectly suited for this topic of cold email, cold outreach. Perhaps we'll touch on other areas of cold outreach as well. We'll dive into some trends.
Will Barron:
It'd be interesting to see the difference between what worked last time we spoke and then what's perhaps working in the marketplace right now in, what? We're in February 2022 as we record this. So let's start by setting some benchmarks.
The Average Cold Email Response Rate in 2022 · [01:00]
Will Barron:
We want to measure our cold outreach. We want to see if we're having success or not. I don't know if you've got finite numbers on this. If not, the gist of things will be more than appropriate. Jason, what is an average cold email response/reply rate in 2022? And then what should we be aiming for? How do we know if we're having success?
Jason Bay:
Yeah. It's really hard to find good data on this actually. Clearbit's got some stuff that you could take a look at. I've noticed a downward trajectory in the data in the last two or three years.
Jason Bay:
So Clearbit's data says less than a 1% reply rate to a cold email. And you think about that, and I don't know about you, that's a lot of work to get a response. You've got to send a hundred emails out to get a response. That's a lot of work.
Jason Bay:
Right now with Outreach, Salesloft, any of the traditional sales engagement vendors, they're all seeing a very similar pattern of that reply rate going down. Now, what is good? Depends. It depends on what you're selling, the transaction size, how many meetings that you need to get, the level of personalization.
Jason Bay:
And to give you a range here, if you were selling enterprise, let's say, some of my clients, and they're selling, let's say, a customer experience or employee experience solution into a large company where the deal size might be 500,000-plus at a minimum size, I'm going to expect 10% to 20% reply rates on those emails because I'm working 20 accounts at a time.
Jason Bay:
And I'm taking the time to actually look for triggers in the company, I'm researching the individual. Maybe I'm listening to a podcast interview with them. I would expect the reply rates to be much higher on those and meeting volume to be much lower in that case.
Jason Bay:
And at the very other end of the spectrum, you have people selling stuff that's very transactional, very SMB type of thing. And if what you're selling has at least a 10,000 to 12,000-plus US dollar… I don't know what that translates into to the rest of the world's currencies.
Will Barron:
Don't worry. Everyone talks in dollars on the… I'm a British company. We sell our product in dollars. That's where the world's at, I think.
“If what you're selling has at least $10,000 or $12,000 annual contract value, it's worth doing a little bit of customization on the emails. But you're not going to spend an hour researching someone to sell them something that's a thousand bucks a month. You don't have the time to do that.” – Jason Bay · [03:03]
Jason Bay:
Okay. If it's at least $10,000 or $12,000 annual contract value, it's worth doing a little bit of customization on the emails. But you're not going to spend an hour researching someone to sell them something that's a thousand bucks a month. You don't have the time to do that.
Jason Bay:
So you might have reply rates more in the 3% to 6% range, and then you have everywhere in-between. So I think you need to do some sales math and think about how many deals do I need to be closing on a quarterly basis? You've talked about this a lot.
Jason Bay:
How many deals do I need to be closing on a quarterly basis? And how does that backtrack into my closing rates and how many qualified opportunities that would need, how many intro calls that would be? And then you backtrack into the outbound metrics. How many outbound activities does it take to create a meeting?
Jason Bay:
You've got to work your sales math a little bit in order to really figure out what is a good or bad reply rate for you. But I can tell you, regardless of the scenario, 1% is not good. That's a little too much work.
The Difference Between Cold Emailing 100 Prospects and Spamming 100 Individuals · [04:03]
Will Barron:
I love it. I was going to bring it back to what you said, and you ended with it then, Jason, it's a lot of freaking work for not a lot if you are sending… Well, are you sending a hundred emails at that point or are you spamming a hundred emails at that point? I guess we need to define what spam is to discourage people from doing it to a certain extent, right?
Jason Bay:
Oh, yeah. Definitely. So the difference between spamming someone and cold-emailing them is… I think it's the accountability. A lot of these automation tools, the part that's kind of tough is oftentimes you don't really hit Send to that person. You might hit the Send button and it goes out to a hundred people, but you're so removed from what you're actually doing.
Jason Bay:
The way that I would compare it is, not to get political, but any kind of politician that is making a big decision that impacts a lot of people, whether that's going to war or something that impacts taxes or underprivileged people, they're so far removed from most of those decisions, the way that we do it here in America at least, where they don't really feel the accountability of their actions.
Jason Bay:
In a very small form, we're doing that with our sales engagement tools where we hit Send in a sequence to a couple of hundred people, we didn't actually hit the Send button to Will Barron, the chief revenue officer at this software company I'm trying to get a hold of. And we wouldn't normally hit the Send button on a lot of the stuff that we're sending.
Jason Bay:
So the difference between spam, I guess, and cold email, to answer your question, is how purposeful am I in reaching out to this person? Did I pick out this person, this company? Am I reaching out to them on purpose? And am I making it evident to them that this was intentional?
Jason Bay:
I'm not approaching you like a list. I'm approaching you as an individual. And there's ways that you can do a hybrid of both. But that's how I look at the difference between the two.
“I like to think of cold emails as would you send that email to your mom? Would you send that email to a friend? Would you send that email internally to someone in your organisation? And if they would just click Spam, then it's probably a crappy email.” – Will Barron · [06:07]
Will Barron:
Yeah. That makes total sense. I like to think of it of, would you send that email to your mom? Would you send that email to a friend? Would you send that email internally to someone in your organisation?
Will Barron:
And if they would just click Spam, then it's probably a crappy email. Leave it to marketing to send those emails and to warm up a client list if that's what you need, as opposed to… It's a terrible use of a salesperson's time to go about it that way.
How to Gauge the Success Rate of Your Cold Email Campaigns · [06:35]
Will Barron:
Just on these numbers… And I want to get into trends and what's working, what isn't working, what's changed in a second. But is this a rubbish way… Having asked the question and listened to your response, Jason, is this a rubbish way to measure success of the response rate of a single email?
Will Barron:
Should we be looking at the response rate of a campaign or a cadence that probably includes social selling, LinkedIn? Whether that's cold calls included, knocking on doors as well. Should we be looking at our success and response rate from starting cold outreach to then giving up on cold outreach with a prospect versus the response rate of a single email?
Jason Bay:
Yeah. I'm so glad you asked this question because we do have to step back and take a 10,000-foot view. So I look at outbound, I like to think of it as a game of odds.
Jason Bay:
So right now, when you look at this in terms of probability, I already mentioned that email, there's a 1-in-100 chance that you get a response to your cold email. With cold calling, it's not much better. According to Gong and what I see across sales teams, it's 1.48%, sometimes I'll see it around 3% or 4%, but of a chance of a positive outcome from a cold call, not even getting a meeting, just the next step of some sort. So basically, the person didn't ask you to take them off your list.
“The number one thing that we are driving with outbound is we want a qualified meeting. So we want a meeting that has a chance to turn into some sort of opportunity. So outbound is a very simple equation where number of qualified meetings equals volume times quality.” – Jason Bay · [07:55]
Jason Bay:
So I don't know by you, I don't really like those odds. Those are really low odds. And the thing that we have to think about is that the number one thing that we are driving with outbound is we want a qualified meeting. So we want a meeting that has a chance to turn into some sort of opportunity.
Jason Bay:
So if you look at outbound as a very simple equation of number of qualified meetings equals volume times quality, and there's a few things that go into that quality metric, but you can manipulate that equation any way that you want. You just have to start with the number of qualified meetings that you want to get.
Jason Bay:
So if we use some really simple math, you can say, hey, it's five qualified meetings that I need to get because I sell enterprise, let's say, and I'm an account executive, that I need to get per month. A lot of times, the way people try to manipulate and get to that number is they really focus on the volume piece.
Jason Bay:
So they might have a 1% conversion rate into a meeting, let's say. So that volume is like 500 prospects. That's one way that you could do that. And I'm pretty sure 1% of 500 is 5. You can correct me if I'm wrong, Will.
Will Barron:
I feel that the pressure is on me now to double-check all the math in real-time. I'll have my Post-it note with a load of equations on it.
Jason Bay:
Yeah. So that's one way that you could do it. But the other side, the quality side is really what I help most companies with. And that's a combination of your message, whether or not the prospect is a good fit, so the prospect fit, and it's also your soft skills.
“I look at outbound as a three-part framework of identify, engage, and create. So we can get to that qualified meeting mark by making sure that we identify good-fit prospects. And then that middle part, engage, that's our ability to start a conversation through emails, phone calls, all of that kind of stuff. And then the create part of that equation is how do we secure a meeting and turn this into a qualified opportunity? And typically, we're going to have to objection-handle in order to get the number of meetings that we need.” – Jason Bay · [09:27]
Jason Bay:
So if we look at this as a framework, and this is where we can kind of go in and out, you mentioned cadence, I look at outbound as a three-part framework of identify, engage, and create. So we can get to that qualified meeting mark by making sure that we identify good-fit prospects.
Jason Bay:
So it doesn't matter how clever or great your email is if it's not going to the right person at the right company, and that we know about the language in which these people talk about their priorities and problems, which we should spend some time on.
Jason Bay:
And then that middle part, engage, that's our ability to start a conversation. So that's your emails, your phone calls, that's how you sequence, all of that kind of stuff. And then the create part of that equation is how do we secure a meeting and turn this into a qualified opportunity? And typically, we're going to have to objection-handle in order to get the number of meetings that we need.
Jason Bay:
So to your point, it's a combination of all of those things. The email is only going to be as good as the person that you're sending it to. It's only going to be as good as your soft skills of being able to write a compelling message. And then the actual message itself. How am I talking to the person about what they're focused on, their priorities, problems that get in the way, et cetera? Yeah.
Jason Bay:
So I want to look at all three of those areas. And I'm happy to get as tactical as you'd like to. I have example emails that we can talk about, all kinds of stuff. So we can get as tactical as you'd like, Will.
Will Barron:
Cool. Well, we'll use that framework for the rest of this podcast. Now, one thing that's just cropped up in the mind of maybe 70% of the people listening to this, the 30,000 people that are going to listen to this, they're driving to work, they're going, “Jason, this sounds great, but it sounds like a lot of work, mate. That sounds like a lot more work than what I'm doing just clicking Send to spam 10,000 people that marketing have just given me.”
This is Why You Should Customise Your Emails and Not Just Spam the Marketplace · [11:10]
Will Barron:
Can you just reiterate, you've already touched on this, but can you reiterate the numbers here of maybe it seems like a lot of work up-front, but you're going to send way less emails to get the same or better results? Just to any naysayers who would like to spam, just to knock that on the head before we get into the tactics.
“When you have to spam 500 people in order to get a meeting, you’ve potentially alienated hundreds of people that will never do business with you just simply because you're an email spammer. I think people don't take into consideration that when someone hits Unsubscribe or wants you to take them off your list, you can't ever communicate with them again.” – Jason Bay · [11:42]
Jason Bay:
Yeah. It's like, why should you even care about having quality as a side of your approach? For sure. It's a fair question. I think about a couple of things. One, when you have to email 500 people in order to get a meeting and you look at the conversion rates on that and all of that other stuff, you potentially alienated hundreds of people that will never do business with you just simply because you're an email spammer.
Jason Bay:
I think people don't take into consideration that when someone hits Unsubscribe or wants you to take them off your list, you can't ever communicate with them again. If someone asks you to take them off your list, you can't communicate with that person ever again.
Jason Bay:
So if your goal is you're selling enterprise and you need to talk to chief technology officers or CIOs or whatever, you're putting yourself on a blacklist where your company can never contact these people ever again.
Jason Bay:
I've had clients before I come in and work with them where their entire domain of email addresses is blacklisted. So they're trying to reach out to this company and nothing from the @company.com name will even come through to any of their email inboxes. That's how serious these companies are about it.
Jason Bay:
So I like to think about… This is called second-order thinking is the mental model behind this. It's the consequences of the consequences. Right? It's the effect of the effect, in other words. So a way that you can think about this is what will the result be in the next one hour? What will be in the next one day, one week, one month, one year?
“Just because something will get you meetings here in the next hour or next day doesn't mean it's good over the long-term of what's going to happen over the next year. So we have to separate decisions versus outcomes. Also, just because we can get an outcome that we want in the short-term doesn't make it a good decision, and vice versa.” – Jason Bay · [13:06]
Jason Bay:
Just because something will get you meetings here in the next hour or next day doesn't mean it's good over the long-term of what's going to happen over the next year. So we have to separate decisions versus outcomes.
Jason Bay:
Just because we can get an outcome that we want in the short-term doesn't make it a good decision, and vice versa. Just because we don't get a good outcome short-term doesn't make it a good decision to get long-term results. So we really have to think about that. So you run the risk of burning out your market.
“I’ve also noticed that the people that respond to very spammy types of emails are never really great prospects.” – Jason Bay · [13:34]
Jason Bay:
The other thing too that I noticed is that the people that respond to very spammy type of emails, they're never really great prospects.
Will Barron:
Yep. I knew you were going to say this. This is exactly my experience and exactly my experience with the students in our training programme that come in from just spamming cold calls, spamming cold emails. They're like, “Why does everyone I speak to hate me? This sucks. I'm just getting rejected.”
Will Barron:
And they're coming with this hard, thick, emotional shell. And then they're unable to have empathy for the customers that aren't, by happenstance, the right place with the right product at the right time.
Why You Never Want to Be Identified as the Spammy Salesperson by Any of Your Prospects · [14:15]
Will Barron:
It makes me laugh so much the fact that you almost counterintuitively, by spamming people, you're starting the relationship as the spammy salesperson. And you've got to do so much work then to get just to level grounds with them to be able to have an adult business conversation.
Jason Bay:
Yeah. Let alone the quality of that prospect. A lot of my clients are selling into chief executives at Fortune 1000s or large companies with 5,000-plus employees. And these C-level folks are really smart. You're not going to get any meetings with smart people that know that you're spamming them, that can tell you did zero research. You're just not going to get meetings with those people. You're going to get meetings with all the garbage in that list.
Jason Bay:
So I would think about that. And we can address the time thing too because, basically, what we're doing is we're saying, hey, if we're going to do some up-front work and set up a system, we then can maintain over the long run a lot easier. But this is a lot more work to set up in the short-term up-front than for you to just write a couple of really bad email templates and to hit Send. So it is more work up-front for sure.
Will Barron:
But then you get, you might have enough analogy for this, but I like to call it the Flywheel Effect. And this is HubSpot terminology. HubSpot talk about this all the time, the main sponsor of this show.
Will Barron:
That you get that flywheel spinning and you start to build that momentum and you get a few deals from it, and then you're going to get referrals because you've sold appropriately and you've added value. Then you've got insights from your original customers that you can then share via cold outreach as an appropriate message. This industry insight that only you have as a salesperson, you can share that. And it goes bigger and bigger, and bigger.
Will Barron:
And then you've done so much work six months ago, the leads that you spoke to that were like, “Oh, it's not the right time, I'm not going to respond to this,” they then have the problem, they have some kind of critical issue within the organisation and you're top of mind, you've done all the work, they reach out to you.
Will Barron:
And this isn't as glamorous and as sexy as the idea of the Wolf of Wall Street where you're just calling people. Two grand, two grand, and you're just going through these numbers and crushing it. But I don't know that that's ever been a thing. And certainly, I'm 35, I've never seen that in any companies I've ever worked in that you were capable of doing that. I think that's a Hollywood stereotype of salespeople as opposed to what's really possible in the modern world.
Jason Bay:
Yeah.
Will Barron:
Let's get into tactics because that's what we're all here for. We're 15 minutes into the show and I think we're doing a bit of selling now, hopefully, to convince people because I think we're on the same wavelength with a lot of this stuff.
Applying the The 80/20 Principle to Your Cold Email Activities · [16:47]
Will Barron:
How do we go about identifying who are… This is a whole episode in its own right. I appreciate that. For the specifics of cold email outreach in 2022, what do we need to know about a customer? What's the 20% of things that we need to know that's going to get us 80% of the results so that we can then send an effective cold email to them?
Jason Bay:
Yeah. This is a great question. You wanted to know about trends in this episode too. This is the trend that I have seen really in the last couple of years is a lot of the tools are allowing you to sift through information a lot quicker.
Jason Bay:
So what I want to do, I call this the perfect fit identifier, is with any type of cold outreach, whether that's cold email or I'm running a cadence or sequence or whatever it may be, what I want to think about is how can I retrace past successes? So where has my company had the most success? And I'm just going to reach out to companies and individuals and follow that same exact pattern and then I'm going to build upon it.
Jason Bay:
So there's three kind of areas if you were building a Venn diagram that you'd want to look at. There's perfect fit on the account level, on the persona level, and then there's the values level. The values one I'll talk about here in a second, that's the most overlooked part, and it's also a way that you're going to customise the approach.
Jason Bay:
So on the account level, let's say that it's one of two scenarios. People are usually either assigned a bunch of accounts or it's a bit of a free-for-all at your company. And maybe you have a territory you're working and you can reach out to anyone that you want to. Either way, you're going to have more opportunities than you can reach out to at a time.
Jason Bay:
So on the account level, what I'm looking for is who best represents our case studies, our best success stories, the shortest sales cycles, biggest average deal size. I want to look for the verticals, the industry verticals, and the types of companies that best represent where it's going to be easiest for me to sell to, I have case studies, we have lots of content to show them.
Jason Bay:
I want to be able to reach out and to cold email and say, “We've worked with companies exactly like you and they've dealt with these types of problems, and here are some of the things that they're doing. Can I share a case study with you or can I share a piece of content with you?” Whatever it might be.
Jason Bay:
So I want the prospect to feel like, “Hey, we've worked with tonnes of people like you before.” On the second part of this, on the persona level-
Will Barron:
Just before we move on from that, Jason-
Jason Bay:
Oh, go ahead, Will.
Will Barron:
… What does that look like practically? Is that we go through our CRM, find the top 10 biggest deals, and then go to those companies' competitors and say, “Hey, we've worked with X. We can do the same for Y?”
Will Barron:
Do we look through the top 100 deals that we've ever done within the organisation and go, “Well, they were this company size in this kind of location, and we spoke to these individuals within the company?” What do we need to do very literally to put that into practise?
Jason Bay:
Yeah. Good question. So CRM is a good place to do that. That's where I would start. And if you've closed a decent number of deals, I would just look at the deals that you've closed because those are the best stories that you can tell.
Jason Bay:
But yeah, CRM, your deals that you've closed, your company's closed, whatever it might be. And I'm going to put those companies into a tool like LinkedIn Sales Navigator and I'm going to look at patterns across some of these companies. So, industry, employee count size, department growth, what's in their tech stack, et cetera.
Jason Bay:
And then I'm going to look in my prospect list of a hundred accounts, let's say, and I'm going to look and see, out of these a hundred, which 20 or 30 are going to be the best to prioritise first? Because they best represent what's in our CRM and what we've closed, they best represent the case studies that we have. And again, I'm looking at industry employee count and demographic types of things.
Jason Bay:
The other thing that you could look at too is some folks sell a solution where you can go onto someone's website, let's say, and you can see if they need it or not. So let's say you sell something that's a customer support type of solution or customer experience solution, and maybe part of what you do to make sure an account is a good fit is you go on their website and if they use a chatbot instead of an actual person, that makes them a good fit. So you're going to look for those kinds of indicators. So that's on the account level.
“People reverse-engineer closed deals, but usually, they only reverse-engineer from what happened in that first call or what happened in the second call, but they don't reverse-engineer how the meeting was landed for some reason. I don't know. People just never focus on that, yet it’s such a valuable process.” – Jason Bay · [21:14]
Jason Bay:
On the persona level, I really want to… People reverse-engineer closed deals, but usually, they only reverse-engineer from what happened in that first call, what happens in the second call, who did we multi-thread into this? They do all of those things, but they don't reverse-engineer how the meeting was landed for some reason. I don't know. People just never focus on that.
Jason Bay:
So take those deals that you looked at, those clients that you've personally closed, let's say, and what I want to do is reverse-engineer the outbound motion. So literally, who did I decide to reach out to? Who responded first? Who was the first meeting with?
Jason Bay:
So I want to look at champions, influencers, and then decision-makers. And people can be a combination of one or all of those things, depending on the size of companies that you sell to. But I have a company that I work with that sells an automated welding solution. It's hardware as a service and software as a service. So they want to reach out to people in manufacturing and operations.
Jason Bay:
One of their big champions they noticed they get the first conversation started with is at these manufacturing companies, it's plant managers, it's people that manage a plant. They're most impacted by the labour shortage around welders, for example.
Jason Bay:
So I think another big mistake people make when they're figuring out who to target is they'd be like, “Well, I need the chief operating officer to sign off on this, so I'm only going to reach out to those people. They have all the decision-making power.”
Jason Bay:
And you're like, “You know what? The chief operating officer is not even going to be in the plant where this tool would be installed, and they wouldn't be working with the people running the software either.” There's such bigger things that this person would be working on that they're not really going to care about that kind of stuff.
Jason Bay:
So you need to have a mix. Theirs, it's manufacturing and operations. And the VPs in both of those areas are typically the biggest champions and influencers and decision-makers in the group, and then we have plant managers and folks like that that we would talk to.
Will Barron:
That makes sense. I've had a bit of a revelation on this in the past 12 weeks or so, Jason. And this might be useful for you if you're selling to teams as well, sales teams. The person that is signing off on a lot of our Selling Made Simple Academy, the audience know where to find that, our training product, in the corporate environment for more than five to 10 people upwards are HR.
Will Barron:
I would've never thought to sell into HR. And it's only that people come on as individuals and then they go, “Well, our company should be using this and I should be getting it for free. I shouldn't be spending my own money.” So they go and sell it internally on our behalf, we give them a commission for doing so if we get a deal done.
Will Barron:
And HR is signing off on loads of our deals for onboarding new reps. So they're buying it for their entire teams and then buying extra seats for new people that are coming on board. I've got no data on this, no track record. It's only that I saw it happened twice in November, two decent size deals for us.
Will Barron:
And then I sent an email to everyone who… We have a list of people who are in the product and who are trying to upsell it within their own organisation. And I said, “Hey, maybe you should drop this to HR.” We did a bunch of deals in January via HR. The CSO or CMO still signed off and had the budget, but it all went via HR.
Will Barron:
And again, this is a trend that has probably existed for 10 years. I've only just picked up on it. Maybe it's just me being dim and not seeing the trend and not noticing these people in on the meetings on the email threads. But we've driven a couple of hundred grand in revenue just via noticing that alone. So finding out these trends can be incredibly powerful, and I'm talking from my own perspective here.
Jason Bay:
Yeah. That's really interesting. I haven't noticed that before. And you gave me a little hack, actually, I need to start using.
Will Barron:
Yeah. [inaudible 00:24:43] talk about it off-air. I'm explaining the pathway of it. The audience would find it interesting. You might find it interesting. But yeah, HR, not their budget, but they're the champions because they seemingly, in these enterprise companies, are organising a lot of the onboarding for new sales starters rather than you'd think a sales manager would be sat next to them going through all this.
How to Find and Get the Most Out of Your Internal Champion to Win the Deal · [25:04]
Will Barron:
So I made the assumption that we are selling to VPs of sales. In reality, even though VP of sales, CMOs, CROs have the end budget, HR is the one going and doing the work on our behalf and grabbing that budget and getting these deals done.
Jason Bay:
And that's really what you're trying to figure out when you think about the person is I'm trying to find the person that is working in a department that's going to have a lot of energy and passion around making this happen. Who cares about this the most? That's what the champion is.
Jason Bay:
For me, it's always been sales managers. These are typically the people I interact with the most throughout the sales cycle, and they're able to do the work for me outside of our sales call time together to organise the troops, get their VP sold, all that kind of stuff.
Jason Bay:
You bring up a really good point here in that you got to find those people. With the HR folks, for example, so this is kind of a messaging thing… Actually, well, I don't want to… I should probably finish this. So there's a third part of this before we get to messaging. But I think the HR one is a really good example that we can use.
Jason Bay:
So we have accounts, personas, and then values is the other big one. This is the one where you can reach out to a company that seems like the perfect fit, you're talking to the perfect person, but they just don't really care about your solution. So I'll give you an example. Customer experience was something that I talked about earlier.
Jason Bay:
If I'm reaching out to a Walmart, let's say, nothing against Walmart, but their value prop is being the lowest-cost provider, it's literally on their website. So it's not that they don't care about their customers. It's that, to be the lowest-cost provider, that doesn't typically mean that you're investing a lot in the customer experience.
Jason Bay:
There are other things that are more important to them to hit that mission, that value of being the lowest-cost provider. So that would make Walmart not a great account in most cases if you're selling a solution like that.
The Three Personalization Buckets You Should Know About · [27:09]
Jason Bay:
So the values, what I'm going to look at, is three buckets, and these are the three personalization buckets that we would use too. It's education; so what are they educating their customer base about? That's going to be a little bit more applicable if you're selling to companies that are also B2B.
Jason Bay:
I'm going to look at accomplishments; so what does this company brag about? So that might be company awards. It might be workplace awards that they've won. It might be how they're so awesome with certain things. It might be testimonies. It might be case studies.
Jason Bay:
And then the last bucket is investing; so where are they investing their dollars? Are they hiring people right now? Are they acquiring companies? Are they merging with companies? Are there new products coming out, new services, et cetera? And tech stack is a really big part of that too.
Jason Bay:
So if we were looking at that customer experience solution again, I would be looking for customers… Or accounts, excuse me, that have clear signs that they care about customer support and they care about customer experience. So are they really proud about displaying their response times and their 100% guaranteed policy? And have they won awards around the level of customer service that they add? Do they have content about the service, et cetera?
Jason Bay:
So I'm looking for those three buckets as well, and that's going to drive a lot of the messaging that I'm going to send these folks.
Will Barron:
Got it. Got it. The answer to the following few questions for me is sign up to Jason's course training. And this is, obviously, more in-depth there and he'll hold your hand and help you through it.
The Messaging Matric: Understanding The Engagement Elements of a Cold Email Outreach · [28:51]
Will Barron:
But let's assume now that we've got what we think… We can use the scientific method to make a hypothesis and test and refine some of this over time, right? But we think, via our hypothesis of what our product does, the value, the account, the personas within there that we're in… We've got the right people. We've got a list of 10 accounts.
Will Barron:
What does the engagement element of this look like now? How can we take what we've learned and turn that into an email? We'll stick with email specifically. But an email, or it could be cold outreach [inaudible 00:29:11], but we'll stick with email. An email that gets a response, that elicits some kind of reaction in the buyer.
Jason Bay:
Yeah. So we want to create what's called a messaging matrix. And this messaging matrix is going to give us swipe copy for emails, it's going to tell us what to say in a talk track, et cetera.
Jason Bay:
So what I want you to imagine is I want you to pick a prospect out and I want you to imagine that the prospect is on a path. I call this the prospect path. So they have a current state. And in this current state, they have priorities.
Jason Bay:
So there are initiatives. This year, in 2022, as we're recording this, there are two or three things that are at the top of their priorities list. And what you're going to find is there's actually a pattern across all of the people that you reach out to around what they're typically trying to accomplish.
Jason Bay:
And then there's things that they're doing to get that job done right now. So there's the solutions that they're using, strategies, tactics, competitors maybe that they're using to help make way on those priorities.
Jason Bay:
And then somewhere along that journey, they run into problems. These are things that get in the way of those priorities, these are things that are impeding their team's progress. And then they have aspirations, so things that they're trying to accomplish six to 12 months down the road.
Jason Bay:
I want to give you an example of what some of this sounds like. And then what we can actually do with that is I'll talk to you about how that translates into an email. So I work with a company that sells into VPs of human resources. And it's not a staffing company necessarily. It's more of a company that has a software solution where people can go in and hire some of these factory workers and people working on the floors and that sort of stuff.
Jason Bay:
So with these VPs of HR, what we found out about the prospects is they want to accomplish a couple of things. So there are two big categories and priorities of things that they want to accomplish. And I'm looking here at their messaging matrix. So one of those is employee satisfaction and productivity, and the other is HR effectiveness.
Jason Bay:
They got this information because we looked at all the sales calls, all the discovery calls that they do, the demo calls, and we just asked prospects, “What are your top two or three priorities this year? What would make this conversation relevant for you?” Et cetera. All you got to do is ask.
Will Barron:
I know I'm interrupting you, Jason.
Jason Bay:
Oh, go ahead.
Why You’re Likely to Get More Done By Simply Asking Your Prospects What They Want · [31:30]
Will Barron:
And I'm sorry to keep butting in here, but I think that needs reiterating. How much of a hack is it just to ask your prospects what they want or previous customers what they wanted and what you delivered on and what got them interested?
Will Barron:
Salespeople just never… Companies never do this. This is how we found out about the HR hack, getting our product into these enterprise organisations. How important is it just to ask your prospects and ask your best customers, “What did you want from us? What did we provide? What made you reply to an email?”
Jason Bay:
It's the oldest advice I could possibly give someone that creates any type of content, right? You're 35, I'm about to turn 33. It's the advice we read about 10, 15 years ago or whenever we got into sales around the language, right? Just ask your customers.
Jason Bay:
And there's a bunch of different things we don't have time to get into with how you can find that information. But the bottom line is I would just ask. Every sales call moving forward, before you dig into it, hey, just to keep the conversation relevant for you today, what are the top two or three priorities that are most relevant so I can make this conversation as useful for you as possible today? And people will just share them with you and you're going to find patterns, and you need to write them down word for word.
Jason Bay:
So I'll go through one of these. So for the VP of human resources, it wasn't just employee satisfaction or productivity. It was how do we take care of existing employees to increase our workplace ranking and retention?
Jason Bay:
So it was very specific around how do we demonstrate that we're a great workplace to work for so that we can win awards and use as a recruiting tool? How can we retain people so that we have great Glassdoor reviews and we have positive references and things like that?
Jason Bay:
So the current way that they're getting that done, so that's the next part of the messaging matrix. We got priority, how they're getting it done right now. They're relying on in-house employees to get the job done. So they have an in-house team of recruiters that are going out and finding these people.
Jason Bay:
The problem with that is that their current solution leads to a lot of turnover and burnout, workers don't feel valued, and there's a lot of job abandonment due to poor working conditions, long hours, and shift inflexibility. So this is stuff that's happening on factory floors like let's say an Amazon, for example.
Jason Bay:
So once I know that's the problem, then I'll look at the aspirations. So what do these people, when they come into sales calls, what do they tell us they're trying to accomplish in six to 12 months? They want to be able to focus on culture, diversity, and inclusion, to hire and promote from within, and increase employee satisfaction and retention.
Jason’s Guide to an Effective Cold Email Strategy · [34:10]
Jason Bay:
So that was a lot of information right there and you might be like, well, how the hell do I turn that into a cold email, dude? That's a lot. So the cold email structure, I'm going to give you an example. I'll read off the email. I'll give you an example of what it sounds like first and then we can deconstruct it a bit.
Jason Bay:
So here's the email. And it actually follows a very close kind of template to the messaging matrix. “Hi, Andrew.” Personalization. “Saw that you're offering a $1,000 signing bonus, on-demand pay, and retention bonuses for the positions you're hiring for right now.”
Jason Bay:
So you remember the three values that we talked about around education, accomplishments, and investments? Well, one of the signs of investment is hiring people. And when you look in those job ads, you can see how they're incentivizing people to work for their company right now.
Jason Bay:
So that was that first line. Saw that you're offering a $1,000 signing bonus, on-demand pay, and retention bonuses for the positions you're hiring right now.
Jason Bay:
This next part is I'm going to speak to the priority of these VPs of HR that I talked to. This got me thinking about how you plan on increasing the speed of hiring and reducing the cost of acquisition, a focus I'm hearing from many VPs of HR in a similar position.
Jason Bay:
So all I did was circle back to the priority, the thing that people are trying to accomplish. And this actually is in alignment with that second priority, the HR effectiveness. How do we improve our hiring practises to increase the speed of hiring and lower the cost of acquisition? This is exactly what they would tell us, word for word. So I'm using their words in the email.
Jason Bay:
And then I'm going to drop a couple of names of companies that we've worked with. Coca-Cola and Good Foods are using our help to avoid running into labour bottlenecks by keeping hiring costs down and hiring timelines short.
Jason Bay:
So that was the big part that they talked about was a problem. And again, this is actually from that second priority, not the one I listed off earlier. They said costs are high, candidate quality is poor, timeline of hire is too long, it's very labour-intensive, and candidates are not responding to our job ads. So I addressed that right there.
Jason Bay:
Coca-Cola and Good Foods are using our help to avoid running into labour bottlenecks by keeping hiring costs down and hiring timelines short. Can I get an opportunity to share how this could be helpful for you at ABC company? Jason.
Jason Bay:
So I've incorporated, in that email, all of those elements. I've talked to the priority, the thing that they're trying to accomplish. And I'm going to read that second one off right now, just so it's less confusing.
Jason Bay:
So the priority, again, was HR effectiveness. How do we improve our hiring practises to increase the speed of hiring and lower the cost of acquisition? What am I doing to accomplish that right now? I'm working with an outside firm or I'm using an in-house recruiting team.
Jason Bay:
That's a problem because costs are really high. When we work with an outside firm candidate, quality is poor, timeline to hire is too long. Or an in-house recruiting team, the problem is that it's very labour-intensive and candidates are not responding to our job ads. And what do I want? And I want to improve our hiring process so that we never run into a labour bottleneck ever again.
Jason Bay:
These companies are literally having to put production on hold and turn away orders and business because they can't hire fast enough. So my email is just addressing all of those things in that order.
Jason Bay:
We can go ahead and pause there. I'm sure you have a lot of questions on the email. We can go in-depth and break it down. But an email like this would get a 5% to 10%-plus reply rate. If we send it to the right person, we look for that hiring trigger. And we know that the language is really sharp too because we tested a bunch of iterations of this.
Why Simple, Professionally Written Emails Yield the Best Results · [37:36]
Will Barron:
My question, Jason, is when this is done correctly and we've done the work up-front and we know what we're talking about, and we're making a few assumptions here that the salesperson is somewhat knowledgeable about the industry, their product, their space, otherwise, it'd be very difficult to come up with these other than asking.
Will Barron:
Obviously, any chimp can ask you your best customers, why they want to work with you and all this kind of stuff, and the problems that they've had, and trends that they might have in the future.
Will Barron:
So assuming that it's a relatively educated salesperson, they've been through the process that you've just outlined, and they've put all these steps into place, that was quite a simple, straightforward, logical email. Is that what it should look like?
Will Barron:
Because if I got an email like that in the circumstance that you just outlined, if I was that potential buyer, at the very minimum, I'd go, “Oh, that sounds interesting.” And if I don't respond right now, I'm probably not clicking the Spam button. And maybe it might take a few more emails because I'm just busy and you need to catch me at the right moment where I've got my calendar open, where I can say yeah, let's jump on a call.
Will Barron:
But should the email just be as succinct and as logical and as… That was quite a professionally written email as well. I'm assuming there was no weird GIFs in there and memes and stuff to try and grab attention, right?
“People think they have to be really creative but I like what I refer to as a boring approach. You don't want to bore the prospect to death, but I want to be so insanely straightforward and obvious about what my email is about that the prospect is not having to invest any willpower into figuring out what my email is about” – Jason Bay · [38:59]
Jason Bay:
No. Yeah. So you mentioned something really good. People think they have to be really creative. I like what I refer to as a boring approach. You don't want to bore the prospect to death, but I want to be so insanely straightforward and obvious about what this is that the prospect is not having to invest any willpower into figuring out like, I don't know what this is. Does this even apply to me?
Jason Bay:
There's some stuff going on on LinkedIn right now that I think is a little bit concerning, where the content is, basically, if you confuse the prospect, they'll respond to you. And I'm like, “I don't think so.” Especially an executive.
Will Barron:
You might get a response, right? But the response is what we talked about at the top of the show of you're now the spammy salesperson who's conned the prospect into getting on a call, and that you're immediately 20 steps behind where you could be if you sent a more appropriate, adult, conversational email where it's, here's where you are. Here's where you want to be. You're blocking your pathway. Perhaps here's how we can get you from one side to the other.
Will Barron:
A bit of social proofing that we've done this for other companies similar to yours, similar size, similar industry. Even better if it's a competitor because hey, you don't want them getting away from where you are. You probably want to work with us as well.
The Most Effective Cold Emails are Simpler Than You Might Think · [40:13]
Will Barron:
Are we over-complicating all of this, Jason, in the fact that that is just a straightforward professional email that can be templated in the idea of, you might do things differently, but this is how we structure our emails, of current state, future states, what's blocking them, how you get from one side to the other, social proof that they should listen to us.
Will Barron:
Is that enough to get attention? I'm asking you the same question again because I really want to double down on it. Is that enough to get attention? Or do we need videos? Do we need to be doing an email, immediately calling, adding them on LinkedIn, and then doing some weird bullshit on LinkedIn to get their attention as well?
Will Barron:
Or it's just a well-researched, well-written, professional, but still somewhat conversational… We're not being weird. We're not typing a letter here in 1984. But is just a professional, straightforward, conversational value-adding email like that enough?
Jason Bay:
I don't know if it's enough all by itself. I think that definitely couple it with a phone call. So the cool thing about this messaging matrix is those two priorities that I mentioned, employee satisfaction and productivity and HR effectiveness, that's the same thing I've used in my opener for a cold call.
Jason Bay:
Hey, Will. Jason with so-and-so company. You got a minute for me to tell you why I'm calling? You can let me know if you want to keep chatting. Will says yes.
Jason Bay:
Well, hey, I'm talking to a lot of VPs of HR right now and I'm hearing them prioritise one of two things. I'm really curious what it is for you. One is around employee satisfaction and productivity. So how do we take care of existing employees to increase our workplace retention?
Jason Bay:
Or two, HR effectiveness. How do we improve our hiring practises to increase the speed of hiring and lower the cost of acquisition? I'm really curious, which one of those two is a bigger focus for you right now?
Jason Bay:
So I think the messaging repurposed, this is how you can reduce some of the work. So if you repurpose that same message into phone, I could record a video too, Will, with that. I could say, hey, I could share my screen on the video and do something really simple and just narrate the research as I'm doing it.
Jason Bay:
Hey, Will, I was on your website. I saw that you're offering a $1,000 signing bonus, on-demand pay, and retention bonuses for the positions you're hiring for right now. Typically, what I hear from people like you is a focus around one of two things, bam or bam.
Jason Bay:
You're just repurposing the same message across a different medium. So repurpose. Repurposing is the big… I mean, it's a huge content marketing hack, as you know, right? You take these episodes and repurpose a best-of. Or you take five episodes on cold email and you just summarise your best parts of it and you put it into a video on YouTube, right? It's content marketing 101 to repurpose the stuff.
Jason Bay:
Statistically, less than half of people are going to open up the emails that you send. So make sure you're repurposing that content and reusing it.
Jason Bay:
So to answer your question, in email… And I don't think you were asking it in this way necessarily. I just want to be clear for everyone listening and watching. Sending one email, no matter how great it is, probably not going to get a response if you only send one email.
Jason Bay:
I need to send multiple emails to this person. I need to call am. I need to reach out to them on LinkedIn. But I don't need to do that in a way that is inauthentic. I could just repurpose the same messaging across those different mediums.
Jason Bay:
One of the things I really like to do is to bump emails and to not do it in a pesky way. So I would bump this email if they didn't get a response. And in two days I wouldn't say, “Hey, did you get my email? I noticed you opened up my email but didn't get a response.” Or, “Hey, I noticed I haven't gotten a response from you.” Just a simple, “Any thoughts?” Any thoughts? Question mark. Jason. That gets a pretty high reply rate.
Jason Bay:
So a really simple bump email can work really well. There's another type of bump email that works pretty good too. So we did talk about GIFs. The best GIFs are the ones that you make. So if you could make a short video or a GIF of you holding a piece of paper that says, “Any thoughts on it?” And you're pointing up at the email.
Jason Bay:
BombBomb is a video platform, they popularised that approach, to give them credit. I've seen that work pretty well too, but I wouldn't send that to a VP of operations.
Will Barron:
No.
Jason Bay:
You know what I mean?
Will Barron:
I was letting you finish that, Jason.
Jason Bay:
I might send it to someone in tech.
Will Barron:
I was like, “Maybe don't send that to the CEO.” Maybe that you not send that to a Ballmer over at Microsoft or someone. But I really appreciate what you're saying there.
Will Barron:
We've not got time. We'll have you back on in the not too distant future to dive into this deeper because I think you might be into some of the psychology of this as well and understanding it. But when you share a similar effective message over and over, you add a layer of congruence to what you're sharing with the prospect.
Will Barron:
And it might be one, two, three. There might be layers and there might be layers of the same problem on you, so to speak, for the prospect. But when you're sharing one, two, maybe three different problems and how you can solve them for the prospect over the course of a week, a month, six months, whatever it is; depending on the size of the deal, what it's worth, and appropriate doing; you're congruent. And that shows the prospect that you're adamant in what you're doing.
Will Barron:
What a hack does is go, “Well, we can do this. And we've got a discount on next month. And then this week we've just added this feature which might not be relevant but might be relevant. Hey, can you get back to me on this and this?” And you go all over the place and you have commission breath, and it sounds desperate. You're just trying anything to hook them, to claw them in.
Will Barron:
Well, if you've got a great product that solved this problem for people similar to your prospect, it's almost going from all this, from a standpoint of, hey, it's almost inevitable that you're going to work with us. I'm going to keep following up because I'm a professional.
Will Barron:
And eventually, we're going to get a time booked in the diary. And whether that includes a GIF or not is obviously going to depend on the person. You can send me a GIF all day. I love GIFs.
Will Barron:
But you send in a congruent message with regularity. I don't know if that is a real word, I've just made it up. Over the long-term, it shows that you're a professional salesperson, as opposed to someone who's just going to do, as you alluded to before with this weird stuff that's going on on LinkedIn to trick people into getting on calls and follow up on emails.
How to Avoid Stone Age Selling · [46:26]
Will Barron:
You're not having to go back to the stone age of selling, which is manipulation, weird five-word hacks to get into someone's subconscious and drive up their 11 levels of emotion and all this weird stuff that happened in the '80s and '90s.
Jason Bay:
Yeah. You don't really got to do a lot of that at all. I think of this… Your sequence is like a personalised ad campaign. The average person needs to see an ad six to eight-plus times in order to even click on it. And that's from something that they might like actually. That might be a retargeting ad that they are seeing from Amazon or Nike.
Jason Bay:
So my advice is always, don't go into this situation where you're prospecting to someone and you expect to have better brand awareness than Nike or Google because they have to put multiple impressions in front of people to get them to click on stuff too. You're no different.
Jason Bay:
You're probably not working at a company that has that level of brand recognition. Most of us aren't. And if you are, that's awesome, but most of us aren't. So treat it like a personalised ad impression where you're putting a custom message or ad in front of someone.
Jason Bay:
They're not going to always click or respond in everything that you say, but that doesn't mean that that first email they didn't respond to wasn't a big reason why they responded to the third or fourth email or why they decided to pick up your call.
Will Barron:
Yep. It's almost like we're telling a story, right? It's progressing. There's going to be peaks. There's going to be troughs. We're going to try and raise emotion. We're going to try to add logic to it. We're going to make things simple. Maybe there's an element of making things more complex. And then you go back and forth, and it's going to be an experiment.
Will Barron:
And we'll wrap up with this. We're using the scientific method, right? We're making these hypotheses, we're testing them. What I find is that when salespeople get that message, they just can dominate a marketplace. Maybe it lasts six months, maybe it lasts 18 months, depending on what's going on in the market, your competitors, and what your customers are doing as well.
Parting thoughts · [48:35]
Will Barron:
But that's when salespeople hit target, hit target, do pretty well, make some money, and then just make stupid money for six months, 12 months, and when sales becomes an incredibly lucrative and fun place to be. So with that, Jason, tell us more about Blissful Prospecting. Tell us more about the work that you're doing over there and how we can get in touch and follow you, mate.
Jason Bay:
Yeah. This is super fun. This is what I eat, live, breathe. I prospect every week. Outbound is my thing. There's a couple of ways that you can get more of what we talked about today.
Jason Bay:
So blissfulprospecting.com, tonnes of free content on there. So we got a podcast. There's guides, webinars, all kinds of stuff that we're doing there on outbound. And then if you're a rep, we have a programme called Outbound Squad, and it's pretty cool. So you get coaching from me, you get a community that you get to interact with, and just all of my best course content that companies like Zoom and Medallia and some of my other clients see, same exact content there.
Jason Bay:
And then I also work with sales teams too. So if you're wanting to implement something like this, we have an accelerator programme where we take you through this. You get to work one-on-one with me over six weeks, and that's a lot of fun. And we deliver some good results there too. So blissfulprospecting.com is the best place to check out everything.
Will Barron:
Great stuff. We'll link to blissfulprospecting.com, your podcast, everything else that we talked about, and I'll probably link some blog posts of the specific things that you've mentioned in this episode as well where appropriate in the show notes of this episode over at salesman.org.
Will Barron:
And with that, Jason, I appreciate you, mate, for your time, your energy, your insights on this. The fact that I think you're a man after my own heart of putting this into frameworks and systematising a lot of it as opposed to just dumping it out there and hoping people can follow along.
Will Barron:
I appreciate that from you and your work, mate. And with that one, thank you again for joining us on the Salesman Podcast.
Exactly How to Overcome Sales Rejection
Mar 08, 2022
In sales, facing rejection is part of the game. But just because rejection is a given for salespeople, it doesn’t mean you have to let it drag you down.
In this post, I’m sharing 5 ways to overcome rejection that’ll put you in the right mindset to pick yourself up, and put yourself on the path towards blowing past your sales goals.
Sales rejection hurts
Now, if you’re in any kind of sales role, you know how it feels to be rejected by a prospect It’s happened to me. It’s happened to you. It’s happened to the greats like Ogilvy, Ziglar, Carnegie, even that guy from the ShamWow commercials. Is that surprising? It shouldn’t be.
The point is this—even if you’re selling the most amazing, mind-blowing, revolutionary product on the market today, some of your prospects will say “no” when you call or email them. sno.
And when that happens, it can be demoralizing.
It can sap your motivation to keep making calls. It can throw you off your trajectory towards hitting your goals. And it can ravage the sense of fulfillment you get from connecting people with a product you truly believe in.
But the motivation, the drive, the purpose—it can all be restored when you reframe rejection with the five concepts I’m going to share with you in this video.
And these aren’t “hacks” or “quick wins” or any other (frankly bullshit) jargon terms. There is no quick fix for this kind of stuff.
BUT if you want to take this given of sales and turn it on its head, you can start by internalizing these 5 concepts about rejection.
1: The Prospect Isn’t Rejecting YOU
The concept that the prospect isn’t rejecting you personally. They’re rejecting your pitch, product or timing.
There’s a reason we started with this one. Because honestly, this is the concept you’re going to easily improve the most from. Concept #4 is similar but more on that in a sec.
Now, when you hear that dreaded no, the dial tone, or the deafening silence on the other end of the line, it isn’t necessarily you that the prospect isn’t responding to. It’s what you’re saying that they’ve ignored.
There are two main reasons you’re getting a negative response with your cold outreach
Reason #1: It’s Your Pitch
If your pitch isn’t hitting all the right pain points, then your prospect isn’t going to see the value of your product. The lesson here? Refine the pitch. Dive deeper into who your audience is, what makes them tick, and what problems they’re grappling with.
Reason #2: It’s Your Product
If after tweaking your pitch you’re still getting too many negative responses, your product just might not be a fit for the market. If that’s the case, it’s time to do some real research and re-evaluate your target audience.
2: Your Prospect’s on Autopilot
Next up, it could just be that your prospect is on autopiliot when you try to engage with them.
This concept is mostly for cold-call situations, but it can apply to cold emails, social messages, and a slew of other outreach methods too.
When you’re reaching out to your prospect, you’re jarring them out of being on autopilot. They’re knee-deep in the numbers, organizing their desktop, or doing one of a million other things that, guess what, have nothing to do with you.
When you give them a ring, they’re still in that other mode. And that means they’re going to respond reflexively with a “no” rather than do the work of understanding what you’re trying to tell them.
Think of it like this—when you walk into a shop and some spotty teenager stands at the door and asks if you need help, you automatically and instinctively say “no”, right?
Same goes with your prospect on a cold call.
Again, the buyers state of mind is not your fault.
So appreciate this, humbly when you do interrupt your prospects and ask if there’s a better time for a follow up call.
3: You’re Playing a Numbers Game
Point number 3, remember that to a certain extent, you’re playing a numbers game.
When you get down to it, sales is a numbers game. If you’re doing good work and documenting your wins and losses, you already know that it takes working with on average, say, four prospects before you close on one of them.
And if you’re not keeping track of these metrics, I highly recommend starting today.
This information on your win/loss ratio tells you that for every perceived failure (a hang-up, a negative response, a no response), you’re actually getting one step closer to closing a deal.
So rather than dwelling on the “no”, think of them like the necessary steps to securing a “yes” from a prospect and converting them into a buyer.
Now, similar to concept #1 (the prospect isn’t rejecting you personally) is the next concept #4. Both are valuable lessons you can use to learn about your prospect and actually sell them better, later.
4: A “No” Often Means “Not Right Now”
A “no” from a prospect when selling to them, often means “not right now.” And in fact, it rarely rarely means “never, forever.”
You might have the perfect product, a primo pitch, and a very qualified prospect. But if the timing isn’t right, they’re still not going to be able to give you their business.
This, however, is not a loss. Instead, it’s up to you to determine the why behind the prospect’s “no” before cutting the conversation with them short.
If the prospect gets back to you with “Oh, it’s just a really busy quarter for us” or “we’re right in the middle of a transition period,” this is a sign that you should reach out later on. So, ask them when is a good time to follow up before hopping off the phone.
With a few simple questions, you’ve turned what other salespeople would perceive as a negative experience into potential business further down the line.
Alright, last but certainly not least is an idea you should remember for the rest of your sales career…
5: This Is Just Business
This is just business.
When you get rejected, you aren’t being attacked. You aren’t under assault. And the prospect isn’t going to jump through the screen via Zoom and strangle you for pitching a product they don’t like.
The stakes—the real stakes—are actually pretty damn low.
You’re just doing business. And you’re just doing it for a company that you represent.
The sooner you adopt the “it’s just business” attitude, the sooner you can accept that:
No one is going to actually hurt you here.
You’re just doing your job. That’s all.
And the sooner you learn to cope with rejection, the better you’re going to be at that job. Simple as that.
Summary
So there you have it—5 concepts to keep in mind any time you get that dreaded “no” during your cold selling outreach.
And if you want to be truly successful as a sales rep, you should:
Reframe your rejections using these five concepts
Learn from your mistakes
Adjust your strategy accordingly
Because when you can do that, nothing will be able to hold you back from crushing your goals.
How To Prioritize Your Time And Become Effective | Salesman Podcast
Mar 07, 2022
Geoff Woods is the Co-Founder & President of ProduKtive, the training company behind The ONE Thing and the host of The ONE Thing podcast. In this episode of the Salesman Podcast, Geoff explains what it means to actually be productive and how we do more of it.
You'll learn:
Sponsored by:
Free SalesCode assessment
Learn your strengths and weaknesses in an instant. Taken by over 10,000+ of your competitors. Don't get left behind.
Take the free assessment
Featured on this episode:
Host - Will Barron
Founder of Salesman.org
Guest - Geoff Woods
Host of The ONE Thing Podcast
Hi, I'm Will. And welcome to the Salesman Podcast. On today's episode, we're looking at how you can prioritise your time and become effective. Today's guest has been on the show a bunch of times, I've had tremendous value from every time Geoff has been on. Our guest is Geoff Woods. Geoff Woods is the co-founder and president of ProduKtive, the training company behind The ONE Thing and host of The ONE Thing podcast. Geoff, welcome back to the show.
Geoff Woods:
Will, great to be here.
Will Barron:
I'm glad to have you on, mate. Last time, you gave me, and we don't need to do this again because it was a little bit painful, but you gave me a bit of a pain in the arse. A pain in the arse? You gave me a bit of a kick in the arse, which gave me some pain points that I resolved and the business is doing way better on the back of it. So I thank you for that. And for people who are unfamiliar with that previous episode, I'll link it in the show notes of this one over at salesman.org.
The One Thing Preventing Salespeople From Prioritizing Their Time and Becoming Effective Sales Professionals · [00:49]
Will Barron:
And with that Geoff, becoming effective, right? Let me phrase it in The ONE Thing kind of language here, what is the one thing out of everything else, what is the one thing that typically holds sales people back from prioritising their time and becoming effective in the marketplace?
Geoff Woods:
Feeling like they have too much to do and not enough time. I remember when my full-time job was as a salesperson in corporate sales. You wake up with big goals, you are naturally an ambitious person who not just sets goals, but you go after them with enthusiasm. And it can be really easy to see all the stuff that's on your plate, knowing the number that you got to hit, telling yourself, all the things you got to do to get there. Along the while, you've got all these administrative things you've got to do, you've got all these customer issues you've got to deal with and you can be really busy and look up at the end of the day and genuinely wonder, “What did I get done?”
Are You an Effective Salesperson? Here’s How to Gauge Yourself · [01:55]
Will Barron:
Is there a definition, Geoff, of what effective is? Because I feel like if we were having a leadership conversation or you were coming in and coaching an executive team, “Well effectiveness for executives is this, this, and this.” Is there a broad definition of what being effective in a role is? And how does that then apply to sales people?
Geoff Woods:
Well, I think we need to start with, what does it mean to be productive?
Will Barron:
Sure.
“There's a difference between being busy and being productive. Being busy is just taking a lot of action. Being productive is taking action on the most important things.” – Geoff Woods · [02:15]
Geoff Woods:
There's a difference between being busy and being productive. Being busy is just taking a lot of action. Being productive is taking action on the most important things. I think first and foremost, Will, people have to get clear on what matters most. Then once you're clear on what matters most, are you being efficient and effective at doing those things?
“People have to get clear on what matters most and ask themselves if they’re being efficient and effective at doing those things. A simple question you can ask yourself is, “Am I doing the best that I can do? Or am I doing the best that can be done?” – Geoff Woods · [02:26]
Geoff Woods:
A simple question you can ask yourself, is, “Am I doing the best that I can do? Or am I doing the best that can be done?” I think a lot of us will rely on our natural abilities, we call it being entrepreneurial, and we muscle our way to a result based on our natural abilities. But the truth is, if you really want to be effective, we've got to acknowledge that other people have gone before us.
Geoff Woods:
And frankly, the best that you can do today is irrelevant. If that's your focus, you are actually imposing a ceiling over your achievement. The opportunity is to ask the question, “What's the best that can be done?” Study the best of the best, model that behaviour and make it your own. That's a whole new ballgame.
Will Barron:
I find this fascinating, right? So when we're training people in our training programme over at salesman.org, part of what we do in the very first workshop is go, “Right, put your sales target to one side for a second.” And everyone's like, “Why? That's what I'm here for.” Well, kind of. But then I explain that a sales target, depending whether it's a small company, big company, comes from just weird random places.
Will Barron:
If it's a public company, “Well, we've got to do more than what we did last year. So the shareholders get value and the stock price goes up.” Okay, so what does that mean? Well, forget everything that happened in the past. Forget the market as it currently is. Your sales target across the organisation is this. Then it's broken down your sales leadership divisions, right? Then it goes down to a sales manager who may like you, they may not like you, but they want to get their targets as small as possible for the team so that they've got the most chance of hitting their target. Then it goes down to your territory. Then it goes down to your customers. Then it goes down to what's happened on the territory in the past.
Why Targets and Quotas Should Never Be Your Primary Focus in Sales · [04:15]
Will Barron:
And by the end of it, and tell me if you disagree here, but in my experience sales targets don't really mean all that much. So we're aiming towards a number that's important because we've got to hit it, we've got to smash it to make some money, right? But there's an opportunity here for self-limiting. And also if there's a number that makes us feel uncomfortable, the opposite of this, of not putting in the effort. Because we feel like we're never going to get there on this, am I right here, sometimes, maybe quite often, an arbitrary number that doesn't mean anything when you look at it as to the actual scope of revenues available in the marketplace for you to collect?
Geoff Woods:
Well, I think we can spend a lot of time debating if the number's the right number or how important the number is. But at the end of the day, the thing I learned in sales is you don't get a say. The number's the number. So I think the question we can ask is, how does that serve us? And I think this is where we have to acknowledge what is the purpose of a goal or what is the purpose of that quota? A lot of people think it's to achieve a result.
“The purpose of your goal is less about the result and more about informing who you have to become to achieve that goal.” – Geoff Woods · [05:24]
Geoff Woods:
The thing that I've learned being in partnership with my two partners who co-authored The ONE Thing is that the purpose of that goal is less about the result and more about informing who you have to become. So I think a lot of us know what it feels like to have a number and we can break that down into monthly targets. And we wake up today and we go, “I got to close a hundred grand.”
“Unfortunately, most people don't know how to turn expected results into an activity.” – Geoff Woods · [05:54]
Geoff Woods:
The problem is, based on that, what should be on your calendar today? And that's where people go, “I have no idea.” We don't know how to turn a result into an activity. And I think that's the opportunity. Whatever the number is, it's been handed to you. Who's the person you have to become that exceeds that number? What do your activities have to look like? What are the type of accounts you are going to focus on? Who are the call points? What's your approach going to be? And how do you make sure that as you go through your day, your time is an investment and not an expense?
Will Barron:
So we'll get onto this idea of… Because we've got a training on this and it's an hour-long workshop. And maybe you subconsciously put this into my brain in previous conversations, that you're not going to hit the goals unless you become the person who's capable of hitting the goals, right? And this has gone back into philosophy, there's other people who commented this. We'll come back to it in a second.
Will Barron:
But I just want to double down on this idea of, because I think I might have not explained it very well and I want the audience to comprehend this. I'm not saying that we should debate numbers. I'm saying the number is almost irrelevant in our performance, in that there's only so much cash in the marketplace. We are a person that is capable of achieving so much of that cash. And so, as long as the number is appropriate that we're going to make money and it's not 27 million when the marketplace is only going to have the opportunity to, no matter who we are, to provide a certain amount under that. As long as it's appropriate, the number is irrelevant.
The Way to Achieving Goals is By Becoming the Person Who’s Capable of Achieving That Goal · [07:40]
Will Barron:
So coming onto this idea then of… Because this is quite out there, right? People sometimes take a bit to comprehend this, this idea that you can set a goal that's unachievable until you become the person who can achieve the goal. Do you have a better way of clarifying that because I struggle to get those words out and communicate it? But I know that when this clicks and when it's clicked with me in the past, that I've had to make changes, I have to hire people, we've had to change our coaching to be able to achieve these goals, immediately I feel like a wall has been lifted. I feel like there's been something dragging at my heels, pulling me back in my performance that's suddenly let go.
Will Barron:
I can come up with all these metaphors to describe it. But do you have a way of talking about what we touched on there, describing it in a more eloquent way than what I have done?
Geoff Woods:
Sure. So for those of you who are listening via audio, I'm now showing my document camera and I'm going to doodle some things. So I'll narrate what I'm doing. So there's three types of goals and I'm drawing an axis where there's an X and a Y axis. On the vertical axis, this represents the size of the question that we ask. The higher up we go vertically, the bigger the question. The bigger the question, the further out to the right, it requires that we search for the answer.
Geoff Woods:
Now, most people, when they set their goals, set them based on what they think they can do this year. So they're looking at their current skillset. They're looking at their current comfort zone. It's a relatively small question to ask, which means they don't have to search for that big of an answer. And they set a goal that's doable.
Geoff Woods:
Now, if you're listening to this show, that's probably not you because you're investing in your education. So you're probably used to setting stretch goals, going to the outer edge of your comfort zone and skillset and setting a goal that, you know what, I'm not a 100% sure, I'm going to have to stretch to get there. So we've got doable goals, we've got stretch goals.
Geoff Woods:
Here's the problem, neither of these are where extraordinary lies. Because we are still shackling ourself to our current skillset and our current comfort zone. But the thing that we also know, that we sometimes forget, is our knowledge, our skillset, our comfort zone, we can change that over time. So the thing that I've learned from my partners is to ask questions that are so big they require that you search for answers that are so far out there. That you set goals that we call impossible possible goals. You're not even sure if it's possible.
Geoff Woods:
I think Elon Musk is a great example of this. He said, “You know what? I'm not just out to build an electric car. I'm not even out to build the greatest electric car ever created. I actually want to develop a human colony on Mars.” And he set a goal that's so far out there that people are probably thinking he's crazy. But once he set that goal, it required that he reverse engineer who's the person he has to become today so that when he takes actions, they're on the trajectory that could line up with that future.
Geoff Woods:
So I'll give you a real world example of this. When my partners, Gary and Jay, wrote The ONE Thing, Gary looked to Jay and said, “How many books will we need to sell in the first week to hit number one bestseller status?” And Jay did the research and he came back and said, “Gary, I think we need to sell about 40,000 copies in the first week.” Will, do you have any sense how many copies the average business book sells in it's lifetime?
Will Barron:
I'll give some context. A guest on the show recently who's had a pretty successful book launch did about 4,000 in the first week.
Geoff Woods:
That's amazing.
Will Barron:
Yep, exactly. Because the average business book sells 500 in its lifetime because that's all their friends and family will buy. They needed to sell 40,000 in one week. So that's rare air. So Jay comes back with a plan for 40,000 and Gary looks him and says, “You just showed me a plan to fail.” Jay said, “What are you talking about?” He said, “Well, no plan ever goes according to plan. So if your plan, if everything goes perfectly on your plan and that gets us to 40,000, I can almost guarantee we're going to miss. You need to show me a plan for a 100,000 copies in one week.” Which after Jay got up from the foetal position, he went and got to work and he came back with a plan for 100,000 copies. Will, guess how many copies they sold in the first week?
Will Barron:
I don't know, go on.
“It's not about setting the goal, whether or not you hit it. It's about setting a goal that requires you to change your trajectory. It requires you to change who you are. Ask yourself, what knowledge am I missing? What skills or habits do I need to form so that I can take the current trajectory I'm on and increase the slope so that whether I hit the number or miss it, I'm going to end up further ahead than where I was.” – Geoff Woods · [11:53]
Geoff Woods:
44,000. So here's the point, it's not about setting the goal, whether or not you hit it. It's about setting a goal that requires you to change your trajectory. It requires you to change who you are. What knowledge am I missing? What skills or habits do I need to form so that I can take the current trajectory I'm on and increase the slope? Whether I hit the number or miss it, I'm going to end up further ahead than where I was.
The Question You Should Ask Yourself if You Want to Get to Where You Want to Be · [12:25]
Will Barron:
How do we know? Because it's one thing to have yourself, so the answer to some of this is get your company to come in and do some corporate training, right? And help leadership trickle this down to sales people. So with that to one side and we'll cover that towards the end of the show, Geoff. Because clearly, that's part of the answer, have a coach like yourself come in and do some of this. And I'm lucky enough to have had you coach me live on the show a few times.
Will Barron:
But for people who aren't lucky enough to be in that position, how do we know if we've asked a big enough question that gets us to where we want to be? Because seemingly, the question can always be bigger, right? And at some point it's just obnoxious and undoable as opposed to something that's going to change us as a person and allow us to make big strides in our career.
“If when you're asking yourself questions and you immediately know the answer, you're thinking too small.” – Geoff Woods · [13:13]
Geoff Woods:
If when you're asking yourself questions, you immediately know the answer. You're thinking too small. When I think about how much income do I want, I'm putting myself in your shoes. “How much income do I want to make this year?” If you pick a number that you go, “Yeah, I think I can do that.” You're probably thinking too small. And this is just I can speak to this because I've been put in this position and I've been asked to double that number and then double that number again.
Geoff Woods:
The moment I hit the point where I'm going, “There's no fricking way I can hit that.” That's when they're saying, “All right now you're thinking big. Now ask the question, fast forward and imagine you hit that increased target, how did you make it happen? All of a sudden you're leveraging a different type of thinking and you can turn those into action.
Geoff Woods:
So I'll give you a real example. Last year in our organisation, one of the parts of my job is driving growth for the business. I set a quota for myself as the leader of the company for revenue. About six months into the year, I realised I was on track to hit the number. It was inevitable that the trajectory, it was going to take us there. So I raised the number by 150%. Now we're talking big numbers so that's material. And once I set that goal, I said, “What will my activities have to look like to get us on that trajectory?”
Geoff Woods:
Two months later, I realised we were going to hit that number. We were pacing to hit that number. So I doubled that number. So if we're doing math, it was about 500% of the original number. We finished, we just barely missed the elevated number. Yet had you told me at the beginning of the year, “You are going to do X in revenue.” When originally I was only thinking of Y, I would've thought you were fricking nuts. But the moment I realised our actions were in alignment with a trajectory to hit our goals, I raised the goal, which required me to change my actions.
Geoff Woods:
The moment our trajectory was putting me on pace to hit that elevated number, I raised the goal, which required us to change our actions. This number, we've tripled that number as a goal.
Overcoming Limiting Beliefs and Setting Big, Audacious Goals · [16:45]
Will Barron:
So I love this. I'm on board with it. I'm just, and I put myself in this box, I'm just trying to visualise this for a, and I use this term endearingly and I include myself in this group of people, Geoff, and you in a prior life probably was included this as well. What about the knuckle-dragging salesperson who's driving in the car right now, who's listening to this, who's going, “Right. I can only send so many emails. I can only make so many calls. I can only get so much better at what I'm doing right now. I was aiming towards my sales target, I thought that was logical. So you're saying I need to double my sales target and have my own target that I'm aiming towards and hopefully I'll end up at 150%, 180% of revenue, whatever it is. But I can only do so much of the activity that I'm already doing.” What do you say? I can guess where you're going to go, but what would you say to that person?
Geoff Woods:
Well, I'm going to do for you what a mentor did for me when I was back in my sales career. And this is when I knew I wanted to start a company, just had our first child. I'm already working 50 hours-a-week in my full-time job. I'm not sleeping at night because we've got a brand new baby, plus trying to take care of my wife. And I want to start a company. And my mentor looks at me and says, “Geoff, you're asking the wrong questions.” He said, “What would it take for you to double your income from your day job, working half the hours.”
Geoff Woods:
And I looked at him and I said, “That's not possible.” He said, “how do you know?” And he said, “That's your homework. I want you to come back and present me with a plan to double your income working half the hours. So you could free up time to start your side business on the side without sacrificing your family.” And I came back with that plan.
Geoff Woods:
And what I learned, Will, this is the 80 20 rule. The idea 80% of our results come from 20% of our efforts. It applies to activities, it also applies to customers. I could focus and had a track record of focusing on the low-hanging fruit, the customers or prospects that were right in front of me that I knew I could get the quick deal. And you know what? A good sales funnel, you've got a percent of them that are quick deals.
Geoff Woods:
The thing I wasn't doing that I started doing was asking the question, “Who are the 20% accounts that if I just closed, those would drive 80% of our revenue?” And it didn't even take 20% accounts, it was two to three accounts that by closing those, just those accounts alone, I hit my quota less hours with less stress.
Geoff Woods:
Now, most people could think through and identify what those accounts are. The problem is those accounts are not the easy accounts. They're not the ones you just get to walk in and do the quick one call close. It doesn't work that way. You've got to identify the right stakeholders. You've got to build relationships. You've got to build champions. It takes time. But if you are clear that by taking that goal and reverse engineering it to activities, you could get really granular on things that you could do every week that in the short term don't seem to move the needle much, but gradually then suddenly it unleashes a next level of growth.
Will Barron:
Some of this is opportunity that's available. And everything has an element of luck to it, right? You've got to be in the right place at the right time. A trigger event happens in the account and just randomly, you can clean up on it. But a lot of this is just playing the right game, isn't it? You've got to be doing the moves that maybe your competitors aren't. And you experiment with some of it and you have to test some of it. But if you don't make the moves, there's no chance of winning.
How to Ask Bigger Questions and Demand Better Answers From Yourself · [20:03]
Will Barron:
That's something that I've learned from growing our business and the training that we are doing. And engaging with sales people who some of them are at a point of whupping me at sales, even though they come to us for training and coaching and a bit of polishing up. A lot of them are just playing games that other people in the marketplace aren't. And again, is the first step just to wire your brain you're allowed to play these games?
Geoff Woods:
Yeah.
Will Barron:
Everyone in the company is doing cold calling, you are allowed to do something else. Because a sales manager doesn't care if you smash quota, right? As long as it's legal and ethical and somewhat moral, they're going to be encouraging you aren't they?
Geoff Woods:
Yeah. Well this is a journey of asking bigger questions and searching for different answers, which we need to acknowledge most of us were not taught to think this way. Because we were literally graded in school based on our ability to have the answer, not to say, “I don't know, let me figure it out.” If you did that on a test, you'd fail. And we were told that our future relied on our grades. So therefore, the quality of our future depended on the quality of us having the answer.
“When we are talking about achieving our goals, when we are talking about actualizing our potential, it is not about having the answer. It is about asking questions that are so big that make us stop and go, “Great question. I have no idea, but let me go search.” – Geoff Woods · [21:04]
Geoff Woods:
But here's the difference, you get into the real world, that's not how it works, not how it works. Especially in this specific scenario, when we are talking about achieving our goals. When we are talking about actualizing our potential, it is not about having the answer. It is about asking questions that are so big that make us stop and go, “Great question. I have no idea, but let me go search.”
Geoff Woods:
Fast forward, I want you to imagine, I want you to think whatever you think you might make this year. And I want you to ask yourself the question, “How might I earn double working half the hours?” And if you find yourself saying, “That's not possible,” I'll ask you a different question. Fast forward to the end of the year and you are celebrating because you doubled your income and you worked half the hours. There's no question mark, you did it, it actually happened. Truth.
Geoff Woods:
How'd you make it happen? What did you start doing that you weren't currently doing? What did you stop doing that you're currently doing? And what did you focus on that drove the majority of the results. You pause the episode right now, look at the timestamp for where in the episode we are, you go grab a pen and a paper and you sit down, turn your phone off, shut your email down. Sit down for 30 minutes with a pen and paper. Write those questions on the paper and search for those answers. Game on, baby.
Why Eliminating Bad Behavior is the Key to Consistent Success · [22:28]
Will Barron:
Which is more important, changing the things that we do or eliminating things that we're currently doing?
Geoff Woods:
If you do the first, you naturally do the second. If you change what you do, that could encompass eliminating things. Now, if we want to get really granular, if you want to look at it through the lens of start doing additional things versus stop doing current things, I think that's going to be a case-by-case basis. I think the way that we, a lot of people here, are wired is to try to add more. And hey, if you've got a cushy sales job and you're working 30 hours-a-week and you've got lots of free time, I've had one of those jobs before, maybe you can start adding more things.
Geoff Woods:
I think a lot of us, if you feel like you already have too much to do and not enough time, you may want to pull out your little gardening shears and start pruning the roses. Start cutting back. That's harder though. That's hard.
How to Subtly Nudge Someone Into Becoming the Best Version of Themselves · [23:38]
Will Barron:
How do you, Geoff, if you're coaching someone and Sam of the salesperson's listening to this now, he's going, “Okay, I'm going to ask. I'm going to, I pulled over. Literally I'm the best student ever, pulled over on 22 minutes and 10 seconds or whatever it was. And I've asked a big question and I'm going, Of shit, I have no idea how to hit this.” Okay, so box ticked, box ticked.
Will Barron:
And then he's going, “But there is some risk to this, right? I'm in a nice cushy sales job right now. I am driving a nice company, BMW. I am slowly paying off my mortgage and I get to go on one holiday a year and I'm somewhat happy. I'm a high performer. I feel like I could do better, but doesn't everyone?” How would you, and let's say you know Sam, and you know that they're capable of more and there's over people in the organisation who are doing twice as much of what Sam's doing and you want the best for Sam, how do you nudge them past that bit of status quo?
Will Barron:
How do you, because I just scream at people on the phone when I'm coaching them and eventually. And I just abuse them and bully them and eventually they come around to it, but that's clearly not the best way to go about it. How do you subtly nudge someone so they can be the best that they can be?
Geoff Woods:
The short answer is, we don't. We're not for everyone. The subtitle of The ONE Thing is, “The surprisingly simple truth behind extraordinary results.” We are not for people who want to good results. We are not for people who want great results. We are for the small percentage of the population that wants to taste extraordinary. And by definition, it's beyond the ordinary, which means this is not for all of you.
Geoff Woods:
I don't know that we are for the people that need the nudging. We're for the people that their current circumstance, the gap between where they are versus where they want to be is so painful for them that it's like their leg just got broken. We're for them because we are not here to motivate anybody. We can motivaid someone, we can aid them on their journey. We can't motivate anybody.
“If somebody needs to be pushed, to be motivated, then their current circumstance is not painful enough to justify them making a change.” – Geoff Woods · [25:56]
Geoff Woods:
So if somebody needs that push, then their current circumstance is not painful enough to justify them making a change. Now let me say, Will, you know my story, I've been there. What kept me in medical device sales was I was comfortable. I did not have enough pain. But when a colleague of mine had a stroke at 35-years-old and all of a sudden I've got a stay-at-home mom with our first child and a big fat mortgage in Orange County, California. And I'm watching our bank account go almost to zero because oh yeah, by the way, my company changed my comp structure and I lost 40% of my income.
Geoff Woods:
All of a sudden, I didn't need anybody to motivate me to make a change. I had my own internal motivation. I was unwilling to accept the current state. I had to make a change. There was no ifs, no ands, no buts. That's who we're for.
Can a Salesperson Do Extraordinary Things in a Typical Sales Role? · [26:55]
Will Barron:
I might be at risk of just losing my entire audience here, Geoff, and you might bankrupt my business. Can you do extraordinary things in a sales role or is this reserved to company founders, startup founders, people who want to partner with organisations?
Geoff Woods:
Of course.
Will Barron:
Is this open to salespeople?
Geoff Woods:
Absolutely. I mean, I think back to my medical sales day. There was one guy, I mean his entire career, we're talking 30 years as a professional salesperson. He's at the top of the stack ranks, president's club everywhere he's been. And the gap between him and everybody else wasn't even close. And I trained with him. He's the greatest salesperson I've ever come across and he didn't do anything extraordinary on a day-to-day basis. He did simple things consistently that unleashed extraordinary results.
Geoff Woods:
I'll share a story that's an example of this. We've all lined up dominoes before. And if you stood them up and lined them up correctly, well, how many did you have to knock down with the flick of a finger to actually knock them all down?
Will Barron:
Isn't this an illustration in the book? I feel like I can visualise it, right?
Geoff Woods:
It is.
Will Barron:
Obviously the first one, right?
Geoff Woods:
Yeah, the first one. So back in 2009, there was a group out of the Netherlands that broke the world record for domino falls. They lined up almost 4.5 million dominoes. So you and I, most we've probably lined up is 28 because that's how many comes in a box. 4.5 million.
Geoff Woods:
Now, what I want you to do is I want you to imagine that you are the leader of that group and you are walking up to 4.5 million dominoes lined up in dazzling display. Imagine what that even looks like. Now on the count of three, I'm going to ask you to just lift your hand because on the count of three, I'm going to ask you just to imagine you're flicking the first domino down on the count of three. Let's do it together, one, two, three. Will. How much effort did that take?
Will Barron:
Very little in the moment.
Geoff Woods:
Very little.
Will Barron:
Probably six months of stress and near heart attack and strokes before I get to that point though.
Geoff Woods:
Yeah. I mean it's almost effortless, the flick of the finger. Now what's amazing is you actually just unleashed 94,000 joules of energy. Which to put that into context, I want you to imagine how much energy it would take to do 545 consecutive pushups, that's how much energy you just unleashed with the flick of a finger.
Geoff Woods:
So the flick is an ordinary thing. It's a small action. But if it's the right action, if you stood your dominoes up correctly, done consistently, unleashes a massive reaction. So for any salesperson, you have the opportunity to do the small actions that unleash the massive reactions
The Little Sales Activities That Drive the Biggest Results · [30:02]
Will Barron:
And the small actions to make the analogy, to make the metaphor… Well, I guess it's not a metaphor, analogy.
Geoff Woods:
I can give you a bunch of ideas off the cuff. Step one.
Will Barron:
Well, it's your prospecting, right? It's the calls. It's the emails. It's the cadences.
Geoff Woods:
Yeah.
Will Barron:
It's all the small steps you make over and over that lead to that one or two large deals that… I've experienced this as well. We're doing it right now. We've got one deal on the books that I'm waiting for the invoice to come in, that is going to be as much as what we did in three or four months last year, a training contract. But it all comes from this content. It comes from the calls. It comes from the emails. It comes from being in bullshit that you don't want to be in. And maybe I need to think bigger of how I can engineer myself out of these meetings. Maybe that's a question I need to start asking. But it's all these little things build up to that big dominoes getting knocked over at the end, right?
Geoff Woods:
That's right. I mean, simple, time block and protect the time for lead generation. Actually set a goal for lead generation, whether it's an hour a day, three hours a day, four hours a day, depending on the type of sale that you're in. Where you are not just following-up, you are generating leads. Then there's lead follow up, follow up on your leads every week. Really simple.
Geoff Woods:
Here's another one, ask more questions than you do telling. It literally took me until I started studying coaching, professional coaching, to understand what my sales leaders had been saying my entire career, “Do not sell features and benefits. Only ask questions until you truly understand the customer's problem. And if, and only if, you think you can solve their problem, do you start talking about what you do.” That's super simple. Most people don't do that.
The Journey to Extraordinary Results Begins With This One Simple Step · [31:45]
Will Barron:
Is the goal here, or let me phrase this another way, should we picture this that we're in this journey, we are the hero of our own story and we need to ask these big questions ourselves, maybe via the help of a coach, mentor or people have been there and done what we want to achieve. Should we picture it as we are the hero in our own journey, in our story? Or really, is this formulaic? Can you copy? Can you go through a step-by-step training plan and it promises X and achieve X? Or is all of this, when we start to get to these extraordinary results, a personal thing that's very difficult to systematise for someone to give you a way of doing it?
Geoff Woods:
I actually think they can be the same. If you actually study the hero's journey, if you look up, Google, formula to the hero's journey, meet hero, hero has problem. Because hero has problem, hero's life gets worse. When hero is almost at his lowest, introduce mentor, introduce guide, introduce the coach who starts teaching hero certain things. Hero starts implementing what mentor shares, life gets worse for hero. But at true rock,-bottom, hero learns something. Hero changes. Hero starts doing different activities. Hero makes progress. And here's what hero actually learns by reflecting on his journey.
“We can all be the hero of our own story, but you can't actually be the hero without the guide or without the mentor.” – Geoff Woods · [33:16]
Geoff Woods:
So we can all be the hero of our own story, but you can't actually be the hero without the guide or without the mentor. And that mentor is oftentimes sharing the model, the system, the approach to a better way of doing things. We cover this in The ONE Thing, it's one of the three commitments to achieve extraordinary success.
Geoff Woods:
The first is, you must follow the path of mastery. It means committing yourself to a lifelong journey of mastery. The third is living the accountability cycle. When things go well, celebrate, raise the goal. When things go wrong, look in the mirror, ask what can I do differently? In between mastery and accountability is moving from E to P, from being entrepreneurial to purposeful. From doing what comes naturally based on our current circumstances, our current comfort zones, our current skill sets, which are irrelevant because they impose a ceiling over what's possible.
Geoff Woods:
And instead, looking for what's the best that can be done. And modelling that behaviour and following its systematically so you shatter that ceiling of achievement. And all of a sudden, the ceiling just goes to a new level. Which means you're missing the next level of models and systems to get to the next level. And it's a lifelong journey.
Parting Thoughts · [34:36]
Will Barron:
Love it. I love it. I've got nothing else to add, Geoff. I want to end on that high. Tell us with that where we can find out more about you, ProduKtive, The ONE Thing, the podcast, what you're up to, mate. Tell us where we can find out more about all this good stuff.
Geoff Woods:
Yeah. So if you're listening to a podcast, just on your podcast player search for The ONE Thing, The O-N-E T-H-I-N-G. The podcast is in the top five percent of all podcasts in the world. Every week we share stories of people or give guidance just to help you get a little bit more focused. So you invest more of your time and spend less of it.
Geoff Woods:
If you'd like to learn more about what we do as a training and consulting organisation, the website's the1thing.com and that's with the number 1 in the URL. So the, then the number 1, thing.com. As an individual, you can learn about our training programmes, our goal setting retreats. If you're a leader in a company, we have a very simple system that helps leaders take their teams from being busy to being productive. You can request a consultation, we'll hop on Zoom and walk through what it looks like.
Will Barron:
Amazing stuff. Well, I'll link to all that and everything else that we talked about, the hero's journey, the book behind that, in the show notes to this episode, over at salesman.org. And with that, Geoff, I want to thank you for your time, your expertise. It's always a pleasure interviewing. No bullshit, mate, it's genuinely a pleasure to interview you on this show when we catch up. And I want to thank you again for joining us on The Salesman Podcast.
Instantly Improve Your Relationship With Money | Salesman Podcast
Mar 06, 2022
Brad Klontz is an expert in financial psychology, financial planning and applied behavioural finance. He’s also the author of “Money Mammoth- harness The Power of Financial Psychology to Evolve Your Money Mindset, Avoid Extinction, and Crush Your Financial Goals”
In this episode of the Salesman Podcast, Brad explains why we all have weird beliefs around money, why this holds us back, and how to break through and improve our relationship with money.
You'll learn:
Sponsored by:
Free SalesCode assessment
Learn your strengths and weaknesses in an instant. Taken by over 10,000+ of your competitors. Don't get left behind.
Take the free assessment
Featured on this episode:
Host - Will Barron
Founder of Salesman.org
Guest - Brad Klontz
Hi, my name is Will. And welcome to the Salesman Podcast. On today's episode, we are getting into improving our relationship with money, and how that's going to help you in sales and hopefully in your personal life as well. Today's guest is Dr. Brad Klontz.
Will Barron:
Brad is an expert in financial psychology, financial product, applied behavioural finance and more. He's also the author of Money Mammoth, Harness The Power Of Financial Psychology To Evolve Your Money Mindset, Avoid Extinction and Crush Your Financial Goals. Brad, welcome to the show.
Brad Klontz:
Will, thanks so much for having me.
Here’s Why You Should Be Teaching Your Kids About Money From the Word Go · [00:47]
Will Barron:
I'm glad to have you on, mate. The audience will know this. We just had a false start recording the episode. We'll try and keep it as real as we possibly can. So I'm going to ask you the same question that I asked you three seconds ago, Brad. And we'll go for it, but it seems like our relationships with our financials, our relationships with money, this should be something that we teach kids.
Will Barron:
This is something that almost every society on earth has to deal with as teenagers, as adults as going into retirement age. Am I off the track here or should all people have learned at least from what we're going to talk about today at a young age, and we seemingly don't?
Brad Klontz:
Obviously, I think you're right. Money in the United States is the biggest source of stress in the lives of Americans. The American Psychological Association does a survey on this every single year. And it's upwards around 70, 80% of Americans say it's the biggest source of stress in their lives, but it's not something we talk about it. So in schools here, we don't even teach kids the basics of personal finance, let alone the psychology underneath it.
Brad Klontz:
And in the studies we've done, it's the psychology that matters. Like the biggest problems we have are people aren't saving enough for the future, they're spending more than they make. I've yet to find somebody who doesn't know better, who doesn't know that they shouldn't do those things. And so for me, why aren't we doing it? It's all about our psychology around money.
Defining Financial Psychology and Behavioural Finance · [01:58]
Will Barron:
So is there a definition of financial psychology or applied behavioural finance? Is there a way to define that before we dive into it and dive into the common sense of this? And then maybe there's some elements of this that aren't common sense that we should be implementing as well?
Brad Klontz:
Yeah. I should come up with a really good definition. You're putting me on the spot here. I've based my entire life around this field, but I've never really come up with a good definition. It's basically the intersection of the science of psychology and what we know about human thoughts, behaviours, motivations, emotions, what we know about that and how it relates to our financial life. And more importantly for me, is our financial outcomes. So what are we getting in our financial lives? And if we're not getting what we want, that's where a deep dive into our psychology around money can be extremely helpful.
Will Barron:
That makes total sense. Okay, then. So I feel like you've probably been asked this question a million times. So I don't want to dwell on it. And I want to get practical of how we can use or we can improve our psychology of finance and money in the rest of the show.
Who’s to Blame For Our Lack of Financial Understanding? · [03:05]
Will Barron:
But whose fault is our lack of understanding in some of this? Is it our parents having a certain psychology or belief system or way of talking about money that indoctrinates children? Is it schooling that goes one way or another and university? Is it society? Where do our current beliefs and the psychology of money that we have currently, where does all this come from?
Brad Klontz:
Well, Will, I'm a psychologist. And so of course, it's your mother's fault. So that's who we like to do in psychology is blame your mother. But I think it's a combination of those factors. And all those things matter. All those things matter. But what matters most to you as an individual is probably your upbringing. The home you grew up in, the messages you received from your parents or whoever your caregivers were.
Brad Klontz:
And not only that, but your family history that sometimes goes back for generations around some of these beliefs around money and outcomes. And that's what's been really fascinating in our research is a lot of these beliefs are unconscious. We're not even aware of them.
Brad Klontz:
For most of us, we just have this set of beliefs around money that's clanking around in our subconscious, that's leading to all these results in our lives, but we're not even aware of where those beliefs came from. And sometimes we're talking great, great, great grandparents set us up on this course in our relationship with money.
Practical Steps Towards a Better Relationship with Money · [04:31]
Will Barron:
From your perspective here as an expert in this space, do we need to go down some weird Freudian path of reliving our childhood memories of where … My dad used to always say, he still says it now, “Money doesn't grow on trees.” Money's literally made of paper. Money literally grows on trees, up until recently in the UK, now it's all gone plastic.
Will Barron:
But all these weird things, do we need to go down this pathway of laying back on a sofa and having [inaudible 00:04:58] yourself, Brad, or a psychiatrist drill into us and understand all these issues? Or is there a better framework or mechanism to perhaps bring to light things that are holding those back and then resolve some of these issues and put perhaps better beliefs in their place?
“If you're getting what you want out of life financially, you don't need to do anything. Just keep doing what you're doing.” – Brad Klontz · [05:20]
Brad Klontz:
Yeah. So that's a tough question. And the bottom line is this, if you're getting what you want out of life financially, you don't need to do anything. Just keep doing what you're doing. And then the other answer is depending on the level of how you're feeling stuck, how you're feeling like you're hitting some sort of invisible glass ceiling around how much money you're making, how you feel about your outcomes in life, your income, your net worth, how you handle credit.
Brad Klontz:
If you're struggling with that, that's where the deeper dive can become extremely beneficial. And I don't think you need to necessarily talk to a psychologist around it unless you got some trauma around money, which is not that uncommon.
Brad Klontz:
Sometimes we have to unwind some really intense emotions because those emotions will lock a certain belief pattern in your brain, and that belief pattern is what's getting you the results you're getting. So it really comes down to how much you want to transform your relationship with money.
Will Barron:
Okay. Then from that perspective, and I'm trying to add layers to this here and add context for the audience. If a salesperson, and I find this common with our students in our training programme over at salesman.org [inaudible 00:06:20] academy. A lot of people commit into the training being uncomfortable talking about money, when the whole job presides around the idea of, “We are going to give you this value. We're going to solve this problem in exchange for this cash.” Because we have to exchange something here, and cash is obviously a universal way to exchange value.
Will Barron:
For a salesperson to have success talking about large sizes of money that in their personal life they might be uncomfortable with in the business world, do they need to solve their own financial demons or is it possible just to work on the outward perception of this, of being comfortable talking about money in the corporate environment?
Limiting Money Beliefs That Might be Holding You Back · [07:04]
Will Barron:
I've not phrased that question very well, Brad, but our own personal demons about money, our own thoughts and beliefs about money, whether negative or positive, are they likely to hold us back when we're talking about money in the corporate environment, when it's not ours and it's not the person we're selling to, but we're represented in an organisation as we go into these deals?
Brad Klontz:
In my experience in trying to intervene with people or help people in my various capacities and with the people I train and coach and everything, absolutely yes. If you're tripped up around some sort of issue, how can you not leak that into your conversations with people? Or for example, let's say that you have a real negative association with money, like in your family, in my research, we call it money avoidance.
Brad Klontz:
So you were taught rich people are greedy, money corrupts, there's virtue in living with less money. You shouldn't talk about money. If this was sort of ingrained in your brain, of course, you're going to have trouble doing this. You might even feel bad when you start making money. And so this can really trip you up. So depends on those messages you were getting and how intense they were, that really tells us where we need to go from there.
Will Barron:
As you say that, my mom passed away five years ago now. But when I was a kid, maybe I was a young teenager, 13, 14, 15, I remember really vividly, the house my dad still lives in now, we were driving back and there was a fella in a nice suit and a nice fast BMW. And my mom drove past him.
Will Barron:
And I can't remember if he did something or tried to change lanes or something like that. And she went, “That dude's an asshole.” I remember sitting there going, “You've never met that fella.” I was like, “Why is that?” And she goes, “Well, look at the car he is driving.”
The Subconscious Moments From Our Upbringing That Shape Our Perceptions Around Money · [09:02]
Will Barron:
And so there was obviously some kind of issue with my mom there, then she was trying to inadvertently pass on to me. But that stuck as a moment in my mind of, “That's not true. That guy is financially successful. That doesn't automatically make them an asshole.” So are these the kind of moments that we're looking for that could shape our thoughts and views on money? Or is that anecdote just totally way off there?
Brad Klontz:
No. So we call those financial flashpoint type experiences in our lives. And it's a perfect example. Now, what's fascinating, Will, is that you had, I don't know if it was your age, I'm not sure if it was your wisdom, but there was part of you that said, “I'm not sure that's the full story, mom. I'm not sure that's the full story.” Now, that's what most of us don't do as kids.
Brad Klontz:
And it depends on how these messages come at us, and the message that like, if you had an unconscious sort of negative association of people who drive luxury sports cars, it would make sense to me. What's amazing though, is many people aren't even aware of those early experiences. All they know is they have this negative association with it, where they look down on people or they project attitudes towards them. And it can really trip us up because to your point, you don't know anything about that person.
Brad Klontz:
And it might be okay to drive a car like that. It just might. You have to be able to entertain that possibility. But many of us in childhood, we get these money scripts, which is what we call them in our studies, these beliefs around money.
Brad Klontz:
And for many of us, it's subconscious. We're not aware of it because it's conversation like that with your mother but it's happened 1,000 times in your childhood. And all you know is that you associate certain things with money. You don't even think about where it comes from.
“Our studies have shown that beliefs around money that are subconscious and come from our childhood experiences end up predicting things like our income, our net worth, and a whole host of financial behaviours.” – Brad Klontz · [10:22]
Brad Klontz:
And what our studies have shown is those beliefs around money that are subconscious for many of us, that come from those experiences, end up predicting things like our income, our net worth, and a whole host of financial behaviours. So they're incredibly powerful.
Here’s How to Know if You’ve Got Money Issues That Might Be Holding You Back · [10:56]
Will Barron:
Is there a way to, because some of this is almost paradoxical because in your subconscious, you don't realise that you've got these issues until perhaps you reach some kind of glass ceiling and then maybe you just doubt in your own skill as opposed to these avoidance of feeling stuck. I think the two words that you used there, Brad. How do we know if we've got an issue that's holding us back before we reach the point where it becomes obvious? And at that point, we've wasted 10 years of our career just holding ourselves back for no good reason.
Brad Klontz:
Yeah. So I think on a preventative nature, it's a good idea to know yourself. We can think of the metaphor of relationships. It's probably a good idea to know yourself and know how your attitudes about a relationship, your attitudes about marriage or not getting married. All this stuff it's really helpful to know who you are as a person. Like some of that self-awareness. I think the self-awareness around money is also very beneficial. It can keep you from getting into trouble.
Brad Klontz:
I'm a fan of self-awareness in general. Obviously in sales, it really helps to know yourself. And so I think it'd be incredibly beneficial before you get in trouble around it. And the weird thing about money is we don't really talk about it. So in the example of relationships, when you're in school, you're dating. You're talking to your friends about this date, that date, what you're looking for in a wife or a husband or a partner.
Brad Klontz:
These conversations happen all the time. You get to see this modelling out with your own parents, with your friends' parents. None of this happens with money. People don't talk about it. We have a lot of shame around money. There's a lot of shame. When you talked about Freud, Freud identified that. You said that there's a tonne of shame around money. We feel ashamed that we don't have enough. We feel ashamed that we have too much.
Brad Klontz:
We feel ashamed that people are going to judge us. And so all that shame leads to silence. And when there's that silence, there's not the opportunity for us to sit back and sort of shuffle through beliefs and decide, “Well, I don't want that one. And how does your dad look at money? Oh, I like that. I'll pick that one.” We don't have the same opportunity to challenge, be aware of those beliefs and change the ones that aren't working for us.
A Practical Action Plan to Help You Understand Your Own Negative Perception About Money · [12:40]
Will Barron:
So by the book and work with you, Brad, is half the answer to this question, of course. I'll plug on your behalf. But what does this look like practically? Is this, for a fellow like me going down the pub with a bunch of my mates, who maybe I want to bring in an older fellow who earns way more than me, and maybe I want to bring in someone else who's less focused on money and has a different type of career or they're semi-retired or something like that.
Will Barron:
How do I go about practically without, as I say that I'm visualising sitting around the campfire and singing kumbaya and kind of getting a bit hippy with some of this, how do I go about understanding my own obsessed negative thought patterns? Is it just a case of getting around people who have different perspectives and just openly talking about it? Is this a super simple answer to a long and convoluted question?
“Your financial outcomes in life are based a lot on your beliefs around money, how you were brought up and what socioeconomic status you were born into.” – Brad Klontz · [13:34]
Brad Klontz:
Well, I love the idea, Will, of picking the brains of somebody who is further along than you are. So the bottom line, you have to understand this, your financial outcomes in life are based a lot on your beliefs around money and how you were trained and what you were brought up and what socioeconomic status you were born into and what they taught you about money, what they taught you about strategies.
Brad Klontz:
And so it can be really helpful to kind of do like a little deep self analysis dive, where you ask yourself questions like, okay, so what are my memories around money? How did I feel about the socioeconomic class I grew up in? What did my mom teach me? What did my dad teach me? It can be really helpful to reflect on that. What are some of those early experiences I had around money? All that is really, really useful.
Brad Klontz:
But in terms of adopting new beliefs that will help you further your career, make more money, grow your net worth, that's where I think you really does help to get in front of somebody who's at a step or two ahead of you, or they're doing what you want to do, they're making what you want to make.
Brad Klontz:
And you sit down with a student with an open notebook and you're like, “Tell me how I should start thinking about money.” And you pay very close attention to what they say because you want to adopt that mindset if you want to get those results.
Why Most People Never Attain Financial Success · [14:39]
Will Barron:
How much of this? And you're a scientist. You may not be familiar, but regular audience know this. I've got a background in chemistry. I'm a published scientist. How much of this is very literally, if you're around the right people and you've got the right strategies for long enough, you're going to become financially successful? How much of this is luck? And how much of this is just people getting in their own way? People have talent and there's opportunities in front of them, but they are subconsciously choosing not to take them?
Brad Klontz:
I think a lot of it comes down to, and in Money Mammoth, as you mentioned, one of the metaphors we use is the concept of a tribe. So you have a socioeconomic tribe. This is the way that humans have evolved for our entire time on earth. Except for recently, the last few hundred year, we're in tribes. We have a tribe, a hunter-gatherer tribe, 100, 150 people. This is how we've developed our entire psychology as a species.
Brad Klontz:
And so if you're in a tribe and it's socioeconomic tribe but people who don't have money, they have certain attitudes about people who do have money. They have certain habits, they have certain beliefs. They're going to teach you how to survive. They're going to teach you how to thrive within that context, but they can teach you nothing about how to live and thrive and survive in a middle class context for an upper income class. They can teach you nothing about it.
Brad Klontz:
And as a matter of fact, they're going to teach you probably bad things about it because they don't like that other tribe. This is built into our psychology too. We want to kill those people. We want to take their stuff. And so really ultimately, if you want to climb the socioeconomic ladder, there's a bunch of psychological difficulties in doing that. Number one, you're going to have to abandon the tribe that you're from.
Brad Klontz:
And if you know people, if you've experienced it yourself, who've climbed the socioeconomic ladder, a lot of times, there's a bunch of hands trying to pull them down. And emotionally, they feel like they're abandoning the people who they love the most. It's one of the reasons why we see people who come in the large sums of money blow it. Lottery winners lose all their money. People inherit money and lose it all.
Brad Klontz:
And one of the reasons we do that is because it pulls us further, further away from that tribe, which makes us feel incredibly anxious, because historically, if you were abandoned from your tribe, or if you moved away from your tribe, you died. So it's an existential panic that happens for us.
Brad Klontz:
And so it's really tough. I think psychologically is the hardest part. In terms of bettering your financial life, and in order to do it and do it well, you really have to study this new tribe and this new culture and learn how they think and how they navigate the world.
Will Barron:
For sure. Now, I want to come back to … And this is slightly off topic, maybe, happiness and stuff at the moment, and where this ends. Do we have to constantly go through the tribes and end up sat on $100 million yachts next to Jeff Bezos to kind of satisfy our needs here. We'll come back to that in a second. But anecdotally, I've got a lot of pushback at the moment.
Will Barron:
And I'm sure the audience will do this when they start crushing in sales, they start making a bunch of money. I'm getting a reasonable amount of pushback at the moment from friends, a few members of family, because I'm looking at buying an expensive car. I'm looking at buying this expensive [crosstalk 00:17:46].
Brad Klontz:
Will, you're such an asshole. No, I'm just kidding.
Will Barron:
Well, it's almost like a passive aggressive kind of all, maybe that money could be better spent elsewhere. But I'm not really, even after the car, I want to be in this specific … I'm not talked about this too much on the podcast yet. I want it to be a big reveal if and when it happens.
Will Barron:
But I'm just as interested in being part of this car, their owner club, and they've got a really good network of events and there's loads of small business owners. And I know spending X amount of dollars, pounds on this car will probably come back in deals and contracts and sales training, because I'm working with a bunch of people who are also in this kind of owner's network. And I feel slightly uncomfortable about it, all of these.
Will Barron:
And I understand to a super base level, some of what's going on here of different people's thoughts and beliefs. And I can see it becomes obvious in them as I kind of talk about this car and the networking and the events that they have and all kind of stuff. And I can see it in a few of my friends, and again, a few members of family that they are almost projecting how uncomfortable they are with their financial status onto me.
What to Do When Friends and Family Project Their Money Issues Onto Your Financial Decisions · [19:05]
Will Barron:
And not proactively trying to pull me back from this, because they want the best for me. I'm sure they do if you ask them honestly, and you explain the situation, but I can feel that a little bit of tension. What do we do, Brad, when other people, the audience who are listening to this feel that as well, maybe they've just had a absolutely killer year.
Will Barron:
They've made a crap, some money in commissions and they're looking at a new house, new car, whatever it is that's pushing their own boundaries. How do we deal with people when they're not being, they're on our side, they want us to win. But again, maybe they're projecting some of their issues onto us.
Brad Klontz:
It's a real challenge. And because to your point, these people love you. They care about you. It's not like they're interested in your demise. They're unconscious around what they're doing to you. They just know that you're leaving the comfort zone, and this feels uncomfortable.
Brad Klontz:
And sometimes they'll even say, “Well, people are going to look at you at this way or that way.” And you're like, “I don't care about people. I care about you. I care about my tribe and I'm getting this from you.” And it's something we accidentally subconsciously do to each other, but really it does come down to that socioeconomics comfort group that we're in. And it's challenging.
Brad Klontz:
First of all, it's easier when it's subtle and slow. So when your income grows gradually over time, you learn to adjust to this situation. You learn that you frankly, some of your friends leave you. Some of your family can be upset at you. But when you get a lot of money really fast, that's when it's extremely challenging.
“I say this for dramatic effect, but when you grow your financial capacity, you're either going to have to get rid of your money or get rid of your friends. And if you don't do one of those two things, it's going to be uncomfortable. And it's going to take some time for you to adjust to this.” – Brad Klontz · [20:32]
Brad Klontz:
And I will tell people, I say this for dramatic effect, but you're either going to have to get rid of your money or get rid of your friends. And if you don't do one of those two things, it's going to be uncomfortable. And it's going to take some time for you to adjust to this.
Why It Might Be a Healthy Move to Drop Some of Your Friends Once You Improve Your Financial Capacity · [20:44]
Will Barron:
And from a psychological perspective, this is me saying this, is it fair to say that that might be healthy for you? It might be healthy for you to grow and leave a few people behind?
Brad Klontz:
Healthy, not healthy, for me, it's like, well, what do you want? And I feel like you have a right to better your life if you want to, financially, and try to talk about it with the people love most, and just understand that some of you, if they have that like money avoidance pattern, where they have this deeply held belief that money is bad and there's virtue in having less money, and the only way to get rich is through corrupt means.
“People have this belief pattern that rich people are greedy or bad. Now, ironically, in our studies, the people who really strongly believe that rich people are bad are also the ones who most desperately want to be rich themselves, which is really sort of a fascinating conundrum psychologically.” – Brad Klontz · [21:20]
Brad Klontz:
People have this belief pattern, rich people are greedy, bad. If you really strongly believe that, now, ironically, in our studies, the people who really strongly believe that are also the ones who most desperately want to be rich themselves, which is really sort of a fascinating conundrum psychologically.
Brad Klontz:
But just understand this, they are going to give you a lot of negative energy towards this because that's how they look at money. It's not personal to you. They love you. They want to be close to you, but it's going to be intense. It's going to be psychologically really intense and emotionally difficult for you.
Will the Chase for More and More Money Ever Come to a Stop? · [22:00]
Will Barron:
Sure. Well, I'll go on the record. It's fine to leave people behind. I've left friends behind. They are doing just fine. I'm doing just fine. And this leads me on to my next question, which is, where does all of this end? Because it seems like, so I'm from a lower middle class background. My dad was a middle management and then runs his own small business. And mom always worked in hospital pharmacies.
Will Barron:
It is kind of like this weird golden lock zone of no flores, but also no kind of like issues with food and housing, anything like that. I've surpassed respectfully what my parents have ever earned, way beyond that. And I feel like I'm getting close now with some business stuff that we're doing to breaking beyond where I've been for the past two or three years to the next level.
Will Barron:
And that to me, and probably told the audience is exciting. The number is that we're earning the revenue, what we're taking home, is almost like a game that I like to play and I like to see increase. Now, I don't think I'd be sad if the business just collapsed. I think I'd just have to find something else to do. I'd have to go back to a sales job.
Will Barron:
I don't take it personally. So taking that out of the equation. When does this end? Or does it not end? Do I end up an 80-year old fellow chasing rather than a couple of million revenue a year, 100 million revenue, and this just continues onwards? Or is there a set point where people tend to go, “Okay, well, I'm now earning three times more than what my parents did. This is kind of a natural level where people start to slow down and become comfortable.”
Brad Klontz:
Yeah. For me, it's just a matter of preference. I don't like the pathological part of always wanting more. It can be very pathological. There are examples of people who do do terrible things and sacrifice their family and their health for more and more and more. And sometimes they're trying to fill an emotional hole.
Brad Klontz:
Sometimes they grew up in poverty and they have this belief there'll never be enough money, and they're really anxious about it and they're scared. And so they run through life very anxious and scared. And that's no way to go through life either. So it depends on the route to the pursuit. But I feel like having goals is fun. You mentioned, Will, that it feels like a game to you. Play the game, have fun. I don't think there's anything wrong with it.
Brad Klontz:
But understanding that ultimately, there's no amount of money that is going to answer the big questions in life for you, which is around connection, around passion, around purpose. And money can help with that. But money doesn't magically solve all of humanities existential problems. Now certainly, if you're lower income, which is how I grew up, if you're poor, not having money will make you depressed and miserable and cause all sorts of problems in your life.
Brad Klontz:
So there is that sort of middle class, getting up there, making sure that you have a roof over your head, that you can provide for your children, that you're not going to bed hungry. Now obviously, hitting that point I think is really important. I hope everyone gets there. But really when you get into those upper echelons of upper middle class higher, a bunch of money's not going to magically solve all your problems.
The Correlation Between Happiness and More Money For People in the US · [25:05]
Will Barron:
I'm remembering this. I think this is somewhat cliche and I don't know if this is totally out of date, but I remember reading in whatever book it was, that around $80,000 in the U.S was a point where every dollar added didn't increase dramatically the amount of happiness that people had.
Will Barron:
Is there any data behind that number? And is there a more accurate? What I'm trying to get at is, is there a benchmark where the science tells us that people at this benchmark, money is a nice-to-have as opposed to something that is going to dramatically decrease the levels of happiness?
Brad Klontz:
So we can talk about it after the podcast and put on our nerd hats on the science on it. But basically, there's been a lot of research that has shown that the median income level, household income, which is around that 70, 80,000 mark here in the U.S, that there's no statistically significant correlation between more money and happiness. There's been some dispute around that. But I think in general, it makes a lot of sense because if you feel like you're part of the tribe.
“In psychology, we call it relative deprivation. So this is a fascinating concept that says how you rate yourself financially in terms of how you're doing is not based on an objective number. It's subjective and it's based on the people you're around. That's how you decide whether you feel rich or you feel poor. If you're in a village and you have three goats and everyone else has one goat, even though you might not have running water, you will have the subjective experience of feeling wealthy and feeling like your things are going well. And otherwise, if you have a $2 million mansion but everyone else has a $10 million mansion, you're going to feel relatively deprived and poor.” – Brad Klontz · [26:16]
Brad Klontz:
So in the broader United States, if you're making around the median income, you don't feel like you're deprived. You don't feel like you're suffering. And what we know in psychology, we call it relative deprivation. So this is a fascinating concept where how you rate yourself financially in terms of how you're doing, is not based on an objective number. It's subjective and it's based on the people you're around. That's how you decide whether you feel rich or you feel poor.
Brad Klontz:
If you're in a village and you have three goats and everyone else has one goat, even though you might not have running water, you will have the subjective experience of feeling wealthy and feeling like your things are going well. And otherwise, if you have a $2 million mansion but everyone else has a $10 million mansion, you're going to feel relatively deprived and poor. And so it's really in relation to our comparison group. That's how we decide whether we have enough money to feel like we made it or not.
Will Barron:
I love this. This makes total sense. I started off in St. Helen working town. And my first sales job, I felt like I was absolutely crushing gay. Then moved to the south of the UK, just outside Cambridge. And I was like, I have skin compared to all of these suckers down here. And now back up in north leads in the north UK, for people who're listening from Europe and the UK, who are familiar with this, that is a somewhat affluent place.
Will Barron:
And again, I'm kind of at the, not the bottom of the tone pole, but in kind of the middle to bottom of, where we live, there is so just insane houses that is even a stretch for me to visualise the fact that I've got the possibility of living in one of those someday. Now, they're just people. A lot of them are self-made entrepreneurs, small business owners, as opposed to clearly, it's unlikely that it's going to turn out that I'm the prince of some foreign, tiny country, and I'm going to get given 100 million on the back of not doing any work.
Will Barron:
So it is achievable for me to get into those, but I still feel like we are looking at those houses, and the there's one particular house around the corner as a Rolls Royce sat outside. And I'm like, “God, that's a stretch for me to imagine myself there.” So, Brad, we've covered why people feel these ways back and forth about money.
Will Barron:
We've covered that there are some psychological or subconscious issues that can hold people back. What do we do if we want to proactively push into this? What if I, from a place of sort of, “Other people have got mega houses where I live and Rolls Royces, why can't I have it?” From a healthy place as opposed to a narcissistic place of, “I'll take their shit from them.”
in psychology, we call it relative deprivation. So this is a fascinating concept where how you rate yourself financially in terms of how you're doing, is not based on an objective number. It's subjective and it's based on the people you're around. That's how you decide whether you feel rich or you feel poor.
Money Scripts: Understanding Your Relationship With Money · [28:45]
Will Barron:
How do we position ourselves, and how do we change our psychology around money and finance to enable us to push towards this? Do we have to just fake it till we make it? Do I need to go to a Rolls Royce dealership, sit in the car and tell myself, “This is just a car. I could have this one day.” How do we go about making those big leaps forward possible psychologically so that we can put the hustle in and make it happen as well?
Brad Klontz:
Yeah. So understanding your money scripts, understanding your family history, understand if you do a real conscientious dive into your financial mistakes and really take credit for them [inaudible 00:29:23] All the studies we've done on ultra wealthy individuals, they have more of an internal locus control. They blame themselves for their problems. They are sort of the instrument of change and blame in their own lives.
Brad Klontz:
That can be a really, really helpful mindset. It actually separates middle class and lower income people from people who make it up into the upper echelons of wealth is this earnest desire to look at, “It's not that I had a bad customer, it's like, what could I have done differently in that sales process?” That's where the goal is. That's number one. Number two, understand your money scripts.
Brad Klontz:
So I have a website, moneysscripts.com. You can take the test that I'm talking about that we've used in many of our studies. It'll put you in a category. You can read about the research on those categories. Understanding your psychology can really help. And then you mentioned it too, Will. I almost feel like it is a game for you. And you keep moving to neighbourhoods that push you.
“When you're around a bunch of people who are having entrepreneurial success, you're way more likely to have entrepreneurial success. This is just how human beings work. By the way, this works either way. Like all of a sudden if you lose all your money, if you want to learn how to survive, hang around people who have lower income. Many of them are very happy and they spend their lives doing incredible joyous things.” – Brad Klontz · [30:15]
Brad Klontz:
Like when you're around a bunch of people who are having entrepreneurial success, you're way more likely to have entrepreneurial success. This is just how human beings work. So if you could put yourself in front of people who are having the experience you want to have. By the way, this works on either way. Like all of a sudden you lose all your money, if you want to learn how to survive, hang around people who have lower income. Many of them are very happy and they spend their lives doing incredible joyous things. And you need to learn how to do that.
Brad Klontz:
So get yourself in front of people and around people who are having the experience you want to have, and study them as if you are a psychologist yourself. You're an anthropologist. You're trying to figure out, okay, how do they think about things? How do they handle money? How do they approach business? Become extremely curious. And that's how we learn. And that's how we grow.
Logic Versus Emotion When Tackling Your Money Beliefs · [31:03]
Will Barron:
Final question, Brad, before we wrap up and you tell us more about the book, where we find it, more about you as well. But how much of this is logical in that, say I end up buying this luxury car, buying into this brand and this lifestyle that is definitely not going to follow because it's just going to be sat in a garage and probably use it once a week, once a month. It's just going to drop in value over time.
Will Barron:
But say like I buy into this idea, and I start going to these car meets up. I start engaging with these much more wealthy individuals than what I am but I perhaps aspire to be. How much of this is logic of, I need to speak to these individuals and say, “Oh, well, this person is running this type of business. They're doing this. Or this salesperson is working this way or that way.” How much of it versus logic is then emotion of allowing yourself to get wrapped up into that?
Will Barron:
And allowing, I don't know if this is like a shortcut to your subconscious of allowing events or places or conversations to happen that inspire you and that side of the fence. How much of this is logical, we can be proactive about it, versus emotional, we need to be in situations where maybe some of it happens to us?
Brad Klontz:
Yeah. I feel like the logical aspects are the easier part, to be honest. I feel like it's pretty simple. It's pretty simple. If you want to have a certain outcome, you find out how people get that outcome. Read some autobiographies and then just go ahead and do what they did. That's kind of how, I don't want to say it's easy, but it's simple in that way. It's like, just do this set of instructions and then you can get where you're getting.
Brad Klontz:
Now obviously, we got to take the random billionaires out who struck it rich in one generation. There is no playbook for that. There's elements of luck associated with that. But in terms of bettering your life, there's a playbook. Find the playbook, read it, and then do what they did. Now, a lot of times you might not want to do what they did. It might have taken more than you want to to give in to do that, but find the playbook could do. I think the emotions are much more difficult.
Brad Klontz:
When you said you're going to buy a sports car, I said, “Oh, there you are being an asshole, Will.” Your mom mentioning that to you. It's incredible that you have that conscious awareness, but if you had a negative association with it, I almost guarantee people who've had an experience like that, they're just not aware of it. Or they've heard their family talk about people who drive those kind of cars. It's that unconscious sort of association that really can trip us up.
Brad Klontz:
And so I think it's really to your benefit to look at your psychology around that and ask yourself, why wouldn't it be okay for you to do that? What sort of associations do you have on that other tribe? Are they accurate? Is this just a way to look at them so you can feel better about yourself?
Brad Klontz:
I think approaching it with a lot of curiosity, can be extremely beneficial, because what happens is we have these automatic thoughts and beliefs about those people. Poor people are got poor because they did this. Rich people are like that. And a lot of it is based on partial truths and misinformation.
Will Barron:
Yeah. That makes total sense. I do a daily journal and I catch myself, this story anecdote with my mom. I knew it at the time. I remember of thinking it at the time, but it came up in a journal. I knew I was prepping for the show, Brad. So I was like, that might be a good anecdote to bring up on the show.
Will Barron:
But then as we talk about it, it seems even more ridiculous now. And I should just completely forget about it. And I think I forgot it, but I think I didn't hold onto it as, I didn't agree with my mom at the time. And I'm pretty sure I don't agree with it now. But then even just getting out there, talking about it on this show, writing about it in my journal, when it came up the other week, I feel like that is almost therapeutic in its own way.
A Practical Approach to Improving Your Money Beliefs, Getting Richer and Improving Your Relationship with Money · [34:31]
Will Barron:
Am I over complicating all this? Or do we just need to be practical? Hang out with rich people if we want to get richer and just do what they do? Have I just spent half an hour going way too deep and we could have wrapped up the show and had a nice succinct episode within five minutes?
Brad Klontz:
Yeah. The problem is that you won't go hang around those disgusting people unless you look at the beliefs around those people first. That's part of it. But to your point too, I think whichever way you can get there, the fastest is the best. I will say this too, one of the problems is that, and you run into this all the time with sales people too, is they get too big for their riches.
Brad Klontz:
They try to project themselves as having more than they actually do, thinking that this is what wealthy people do. And all the studies on wealthy people actually show that they do the opposite. So the ones who are most likely to flash wealth are the ones who actually have less of it, which is really fascinating because everyone starts thinking, “Oh no, I know this ultra rich person who does it.” That is not the majority.
Brad Klontz:
And here in the U.S, the majority of millionaires are self-made. It's upwards of 80%. And when we do studies on those individuals, I'm talking people 11 million in net worth. They are vigilant around money. They're savers. If you ask them how much money they made, they would tell you they make less than they do.
“The only way to become wealthy is to hold onto net worth to save it. And if you're spending it on depreciating assets like cars, it needs to be money that is throw-away money for you because buying cars is not an investment. That's money that's going to go down in value.” – Brad Klontz · [35:59]
Brad Klontz:
And so it's a fascinating thing because many of us try to emulate this stereotype we have of rich people, and actually that's not how people become rich. They become rich by, it's net worth. And the only way to become wealthy is to hold onto net worth to save it.
Brad Klontz:
And if you're spending it on depreciating assets like cars, it needs to be money that is throw away money for you because that's not an investment. That's money that's going to go down in value. And so looking at it as a luxury, people don't do that unless they can actually afford it, or they're not in the ranks of the wealthy for very long.
Will Barron:
The people I know that have the type of cars that I'm talking, and I'll tell you off air in a second about it, Brad, they drive like a crappy, old banger as their main car, then have a prestigious sports car or even super cars from this brand locked up in a nice pristine garage.
Will Barron:
And they like to polish it and look at it and drink up a coffee sat in the seat every morning. But they're all wearing crappy polo shirts and ripped up jeans and crappy trainers. And they're all typically salespeople who had success five to 10 years ago, who invested appropriately and are now killing it on the back of that. A lot of them got into property and things like that. Obviously they're small business owners who have just like hustled and grinded their way to where they are right now.
Will Barron:
So yeah, I think you're right. This seems to be people who are doing less well [inaudible 00:37:09] who don't have the cash to just flash and show off. Then there's a weird gap in the middle, where my partners, my message is a doctor. So I see a lot of [inaudible 00:37:18] it's by flashy cars when I know exactly how much they earn, and I earn way more than what they earn.
Will Barron:
And I'm not driving around in a flashy car day to day as my main vehicle. And wearing Gucci t-shirts and all this crap and nonsense trying to play this bling game. And then you see the actual wealthy people on the other side are all dressed like scruffs, haven't had hair cut in three months, but actually have the wealth to back it up. So I think there's an interesting dynamic there. Right?
Brad Klontz:
Very much so. Good observation. And social media, it's a toxic place that just lies to you about how wealthy people go through life.
Social Media and How It Has Changed Our Perception of Wealth and Money · [37:28]
Will Barron:
Yeah. I will go on record. There's very, very few rich 23-year old driving Lamborghinis in real life who have actual wealth. There's probably a handful in the west world who have made it themselves, but there's a lot of people on Instagram, young fellas, young girls.
Will Barron:
I'm 35. I'm saying younger than me who are driving these ridiculous cars, living this lifestyle, whereas it's just a facade. It's not real. They don't have the wealth to buy a 400 grand car. They're hiring it. They're borrowing them. They're taking pictures next to one part in the street. And it's just not real.
Will Barron:
Social media, it's another conversation for another time, Brad, I think. I don't know if you've got research data on this, but with it being a relatively new phenomenon, that must have changed people's perceptions of wealth together.
Brad Klontz:
Yeah, it does. And back to that, relative deprivation psychology. Before, it would just be, we would be exposed to people in our neighbourhood. And somebody had a nicer bike that was shiny and we'd feel a sense of deprivation like, “I want that bike.” Now a bunch of it's false too.
Brad Klontz:
But you see on Instagram every day, all these people who seem to have a happier relationship than you, driving a nicer car in front of a mansion. You have no idea if any of that stuff is theirs. But what it does is it triggers a sense of deprivation inside of you. And if you notice and you click on those profiles, they're all selling something. They're all selling you a course on how to become wealthy. And they know that they trigger your sense of deprivation that it'll help them sell their get-rich-quick course.
Will Barron:
Yeah. And look, to be blunt, the audience will know this. Well, that's why I'm not talking about this car. I'm not naming brands. I'm not doing anything on that front because I'm not sure how to approach this with our audience, because our whole brand, Brad, is based on the back that I'm just this knuckle dragging salesperson like the audience. I'm still doing sales calls every day.
Will Barron:
The business do great, revenue wise, but I'm not taking anything out of the business. The business is growing and I'm still skinned every month by the time all the expenses are paid, because I want to do it along with the audience.
Parting Thoughts · [39:50]
Will Barron:
So with that, mate, and just for anyone who's new to the show, hopefully that gives a bit of context as to why I'm not showing off this car that we may or may not be buying in the next few weeks. But Brad, tell us about the book, Money Mammoth and where we can find out more about you. And you mentioned the website earlier on as well. Tell us about that link as well.
Brad Klontz:
Yeah. So Money Mammoth is my sixth book. Wow. I can't believe it's been 6:30, but had my latest research on there. For example, one study, we got people to save 73% more after just spending an hour of have them visualising their goals and doing weird sort of vision board stuff, but 73% increase in savings.
Brad Klontz:
So I've got the science and techniques in there in Money Mammoth. I'm @Dr. Brad Klontz on social media. And if you want to learn more about your money scripts, I put it online, moneyscripts.com. That's the test we've used with, I'm going to say almost 100,000 people now and done studies on.
Will Barron:
Amazing stuff. Well, to all that and the shown it to this episode over at salesman.org. With that, Brad, I want to thank you for your time. The fact that you're doing actual research on this and not just pulling ideas and thoughts out of thinner is really important to our community and your community as well. So I appreciate that. I'll just plug you on that point specifically. Oh, thank you for your time and your expertise and for joining us on the Salesman Podcast.
The 4-Step Process to Influencing Buying Decisions | Salesman Podcast
Mar 05, 2022
Andres Lares is the managing partner at Shapiro Negotiations Institute and the author of Persuade – the 4-step Process to Influence People and Decisions. In this episode of the Salesman Podcast, Andres explains his 4-step process to influencing your prospect’s buying decisions.
You'll learn:
Sponsored by:
Free SalesCode assessment
Learn your strengths and weaknesses in an instant. Taken by over 10,000+ of your competitors. Don't get left behind.
Take the free assessment
Featured on this episode:
Host - Will Barron
Founder of Salesman.org
Guest - Andres Lares
Negotiations Expert
Hi, my name is will, and welcome to the Salesman Podcast. On today's episode, we're going to be looking at the four-step process to influencing buying decisions. Today's guest is Andres Lares. Andres is the managing partner over at SNI. He's the author of Persuade: The 4-Step Process to Influence People and Decisions. He's been featured in Harvard Business Review, CNBC, Entrepreneur, ABC, Fox, and many other places as well. With that, Andres, welcome to the show.
Andres Lares:
Thank you for having me.
Will Barron:
More than welcome, sir. You are coming on the show to talk about a topic that we've covered a bazillion gillion times on the past, influence persuasion. I love covering it, because everyone has different insights, different aspects to this. Am I wrong? This is one of the most fascinating topics that two humans can talk about, right?
Andres Lares:
I was about to say, you can't cover it enough. It's one of those things that if you think in your professional life and your personal life, you really can't avoid. Negotiating and influencing is something you do all day, every day.
The Art and Science of Influence and Persuasion · [01:00]
Will Barron:
For sure. Okay. I want to ask you a really lazy, loaded, leading question, because I think it ties into the content from your business, your training, and the book and stuff as well. I think this'll give us a starting point for the conversation, and we'll see where we go with that. With that, Andres, can the, I'm going to say, the art and the science of influence persuasion really be broken down into just four steps?
Andres Lares:
As I think about the answer that, two things come to mind. The first is, I did economics in university. I took a very much, in the economics discipline, really, models are meant to balance giving you something that's practical and actionable and meaningful, but also being simple enough that at the end, you are capturing what you need to capture. Otherwise, very quickly, you get lost in the weeds.
Andres Lares:
I think that's the mentality around this four-step process. The second is, it's not necessarily the four steps only to influencing and persuading. It's more the four steps in the decision-making process. As a result, you take advantage of those, and by better understanding those, you're better able to influence and persuade. That's the structure behind it, if you will.
The Four Step Process of Influencing Buying Decisions · [02:00]
Will Barron:
Sure. Give us the high-level overview of these four steps. Then, we might not cover them all, but we'll break down some of it, and we'll see if we can leave the audience with some practical steps to improve their ability to influence and persuade.
Andres Lares:
Perfect. The four-step process is, and I build this up like Maslow's hierarchy, if you will, for those that have taken psychology 101, in Maslow's hierarchy, it's a pyramid, and the base layer is building credibility. Building credibility, without it, if you think about a commercial that might have a dentist, when they're selling toothpaste, they might have an athlete. Why is that? Because you want to build credibility, you want people to listen.
Andres Lares:
It's that base layer. Without it, people, they don't care. There's so much noise out there, that that's what allows us to figure out, is this someone or something I should listen to or not? Credibility.
“People make decisions emotionally, and then they justify rationally. And we can't say that enough because all too often, especially salespeople, are trying to persuade others with logic. “Here's the five reasons you should do this. Here's five of our clients that should make you feel more comfortable.” The reality is, people make decisions emotionally then it's the logic that helps them justify it.” – Andres Lares · [02:59]
Andres Lares:
The next step is engage emotion. Really, perhaps the key takeaway of this model is really that, people make decisions emotionally, and then they justify rationally. Really, we can't say that enough, because all too often, especially salespeople, really all of us, are trying to persuade others with logic. Here's the five reasons you should do this. Here's five of our clients. That should make you feel more comfortable.
Andres Lares:
The reality is, people make decisions emotionally. Then, it's the logic that helps them justify it. They're sleeping at home at night thinking, “I think I did go with the right decision, because,” whatever the logic is. Then of course comes the logic. First, you build credibility, then you engage emotion. The next step is the logic, and you demonstrate logic. The key there is to do it in a very practical and precise way.
Andres Lares:
Then finally, those first three steps were actually from Aristotle. In 350 BC, he taught ethos, pathos, logos. That's credibility, emotion and logic. Of course, I say that to practise what we preach, because with a little bit of extra credibility, if you don't believe us, who is this guy telling me this? Aristotle's someone you probably trust, and there's a lot of credibility there.
Andres Lares:
We added on top of that, is facilitate action. I think as a salesperson, anyone can relate to, “Will, is this something that you really want to move forward with?” Oh yes, it is. “Are you excited about,” oh yes, I am. Then, all of a sudden, you don't hear back, and all this momentum is gone. Facilitate action is meant to do that. It's talking about, okay, what are some ways we can keep that momentum, to make sure that the wheels don't fall off?
Credibility and Why It’s So Important in the Sales Process · [04:30]
Will Barron:
When we talk about this, I've not got my iPad idea, otherwise I'd draw this out, because I think visually, this would make a lot of sense. When we talk about credibility being the base, if someone does not … A salesperson selling some kind of, I don't know, a software product, Sam the salesperson is selling software product. If he's not credible, can he or she lean into the credibility of the company? Then, if they're not credible, does that just then wipe out any chance of influencing a potential customer into making a purchase?
Andres Lares:
For the last part, it does wipe it out, because we won't even give the light a day. If Sam the software salesperson knocks on Will's door and says, “Hey,” and basically, it stops after that. You don't listen. You want to move on to the next thing and just discredit it. What happens is, how do you do it? Most salespeople, most people don't really have credibility necessarily. They're reaching out, potentially cold. That's of course why warm leads are so much more valuable, because there is credibility. It's passed on, because Will knows I'm this, or knows Sam, or whoever it is.
“One of the ways to build credibility is to borrow it. What you would do is you'd borrow from your company, you would borrow it from peers, you'd borrow from experience, etc. The easiest one is company.” – Andres Lares · [05:3]
Andres Lares:
If you don't have that, then that's exactly what you do. One of the ways to build credibility is to borrow it. What you would do is, you'd borrow from your company, you would borrow it from beers, you'd borrow from experience, whatever you borrow it. The easiest one is company. If you're in software sales for a large firm, then look, you don't have to necessarily think about Will specifically and what I know, but you've got confidence that, if you're a Microsoft salesperson, we've all heard of Microsoft. There's trust there in the almost trillion dollar cap that it is.
Andres Lares:
That's absolutely one of the ways to do it.
How to Borrow Credibility From Your Company, Peers, or Sales Managers · [06:15]
Will Barron:
I just want to be … Because some of these conversations I have, we end up in all theory, 45 minutes go past, and there's nothing practical. I want to layer as much practicality as we can into this episode as we go through this, Andres. With that said, if somebody's listening to this and they're going, “Crap, I don't have that much experience in this space. Maybe I'm just straight out of college, my first sales role, and the company I'm selling for is a startup. No one knows who we are.”
Will Barron:
Is it practical to advise that person to gather as much experience as they can in that role as they possibly can, but then maybe move to a big organisation, and make selling as easy as possible for themselves, by being able to leverage the credibility, borrow the credibility, to use your wording, of the company, of amazing clients and previous deals that've been done?
Andres Lares:
There is something to be said for that. I think at the same time, you don't necessarily have to go to the bigger company to gain their credibility, because then you can get your own credibility and borrow it from elsewhere, not just the firm. Just as a unique example, what does this look like too? I think you said something about practical, and I do want to get to that, because I think for listeners, okay, how do I do this? Hypothetically, I'll give an example from us in our world.
Andres Lares:
If we're talking to a pharmaceutical company, what's the best way for us to use emotion, but also at the same time, build credibility? Those first two steps. When someone explains, here's the challenge that I have. It's one of the questions that we ask right up front, why are you calling us? Tell us more about your situation. The first thing we'll do is briefly walk through other examples where you've dealt with exactly that kind of situation. Which, if you're a startup, as long as you have at least more one other customer, hopefully there's going to be some overlap there.
Andres Lares:
You don't necessarily have to say, “Hey, look, this is Microsoft or Amazon or Cisco. Of course, you've heard of us.” You could say, “Will, you talked about the challenge that you have, where you are having X, Y, and Z. We've dealt exactly with that sort of situation. Here's what we did.” You walk through A, B and C. What happens is, you don't even have to get specifically to the client name, but your ability to understand what their challenge is, and start getting to some ideas around solutions. You haven't laid out a framework, because you probably don't know enough to do that, but you've at least walked them through saying, hey, not only did I listen to you, but I've also been through similar situations before.
Andres Lares:
That's an example of very simple way to borrow credibility from the experience you have as a company. It doesn't necessarily mean you have to point to that, hey, trillion dollar company, the big one, it could be a startup that you've never heard of, but now, oh, okay, they understand me, they've done this before.
Will Barron:
Sure. I think a layer on that as well, there are billion dollar, trillion dollar companies that no one's ever heard of anyway. Before we hit record, I mentioned my first sales job, job at a company called Johnson Matthey, multi-billion dollar company, mine most of the precious metals on the planet. If you look up the prices of precious metals, it's usually set by Johnson Matthey. No one's ever heard of the company. I think two thirds of all catalytic converters in cars use the precious metals, which make up the main price of a catalytic converter, from Johnson Matthey.
The Benefits of Being Specific During the Sales Process and What it Does to Your Credibility · [09:10]
Will Barron:
Again, no one's ever heard of them. When you start to use storytelling, you can finesse, is that a fair way of describing this? You can borrow credibility without having to name clients, and still talk about big numbers. What am I trying to get at? I'm trying to walk a line here between, we don't want the audience to lie about a customer that doesn't exist, but it's also appropriate if we can't name company names and stuff, to still tell stories. Not being able to talk specifics is not necessarily, or should not, not being specific, be a barrier to someone telling a story, or is a story still effective at building credibility, even if there's a reduction in specifics, names, locations, and people within. More general stories still built credibility.
Andres Lares:
I think there's a lot there, that starts getting into the nitty gritty, I think it's worth dissecting, because I would say specificity is important, but specificity in who exactly the client is, when exactly you worked with them, isn't as important. Specificity is important, because it makes it more real and more relevant. An example from the book, we talk about how in just a totally other example, if you say that a price is $10, versus you say the price is $9.59, it conveys that $10 seems like a general number that's been rounded up, and then $9.59 gives automatically the brain of the other side starts to think, there must be a reason it's $9.59. It's almost a more credible number, that's less likely to be negotiated down.
Andres Lares:
That's an aside, but that same specificity concept translates to the story. People understand at this point that, hey, I can't tell you exactly who this client is, or whatever may be, but the specificity piece is important. You want to be more specific about the challenges they face coming in, and the solutions you provided them to overcome that. That's when the specificity I think is most important. Not necessarily in exactly what industry, exactly what company, who exactly you worked with.
Andres Lares:
Those sorts of things, you can get away with. That's what makes the story more compelling. The idea is you want Will to sit there and think at the end of that conversation, that I've been through a situation like this before. I trust that because of that experience, I'm a valuable asset to you, that can help you find an optimal solution. That's really what the story's saying, more than, “Hey, I've done this before with company X specifically.”
Will Barron:
Got it. On that then, is this, and credibility might be the easiest one to do this upon, but is this measurable? Can we say, this person has X credibility, this person has Y credibility? Again, I'm thinking of this from the perspective of the audience, where they want to improve, but it's very difficult to improve that something, if you can't put a number on it, or if it's anecdotally, “Oh, I trust that person, but I don't trust that person.”
Can We Really Measure Our Credibility? · [11:59]
Will Barron:
Can we measure credibility specifically? Then we can touch on some of these other points as well.
Andres Lares:
We've played around with that for a long time. We've struggled to find a foolproof way to do that. I would say, something we've talked a lot about is, there is a hierarchy, if you will, and credibility has a lot to do with the quality of the relationship. Those two are very closely aligned, because essentially, credibility is basically trust. There's a little bit more to it, but essentially, those are very well-correlated.
Andres Lares:
If you think of it that way, if you want to figure out, okay, what's the credibility you have, think about a prospective client, our client, and think about all the little things. For example, if you call them and you leave them a voicemail or you send them an email, how long do they take to call you back or email you back? Have they ever asked you for advice? Do they typically take your advice if you potentially provide a few nuggets, even without being requested? Those sorts of things. Your conversations, are they very transactional nature? How much do you talk personally, and get beyond the business relationship?
“If your prospects respond fairly quickly to your emails, they ask you for advice, or they clearly value your opinion, then your credibility is quite high. If none of those are happening and they only come to you when they need pricing, and you're essentially a rate sheet, then your credibility is probably pretty low.” – Andres Lares · [13:19]
Andres Lares:
If you answer all those questions, then I would say it's actually very similar to body language, which is someone we cover in our book, which is, one thing doesn't tell you much. It could be just a mood or very specific, it could be a lot of factors are there. It's hard to read much from one response, but over the body of work, over a few months, if all those things are happening, they respond fairly quickly, they ask you for advice, they clearly value your opinion, your credibility is quite high. If none of those are happening and they only come to you when they need pricing, and you're essentially a rate sheet, then your credibility is probably pretty low.
Andres Lares:
That's how I would answer it, rather than having a specific process to figure that out.
Will Barron:
Makes total sense. That impact of someone that you're prospecting, someone that you're working with, asking you for advice is so important. I don't think this is really talked about in any sales books that I've seen. It's a question that we include in our sales code assessment in our training product, because it really does set the bar between salespeople, and I won't go too much into this, I don't want this to be a pitch for the product kind of thing, but it really just separates salespeople in the data that we've collected, of the cliche salesperson who's a consultant, versus the salesperson who's just spamming cold emails, as many people as possible, trying to just get the right person at the right time, with the right product by fluke and by look, more than anything else.
Will Barron:
That question of, hey, do your buyers ask for your advice, ask for your opinions, ring you up, and anything other than what is the price, or how do I get started? That is a massive differentiator in our own internal data, as to a salesperson who's in control of the sale, as much as we want to be, as the buyer goes through the buyer's journey, versus again, someone who's just spamming for the right person at the right place at the right time.
Why Patience is Key When Trying to Build Credibility · [14:48]
Will Barron:
Is there anything else you want to add? I want to go through as many of these as we can. Is there anything else you want to add to the credibility? I think that makes sense. I think that is objectively measurable for the audience now as well.
Andres Lares:
The only thing I would add is, it takes patience. The only factor we haven't talked about is … In the book, we talk about really, the name of the game is to speed up that process. That's what we all want to do, as salespeople, we want to get to a point where we are credible in the eyes of a potential client, or a client, and do so as quickly as possible. That is the name of the game, but no matter what, even with the best system, even the most experienced and effective people, it takes time.
Andres Lares:
That's part of just one other practical tip. If we're talking about building credibility, if I'm talking to Will for the first time, okay, let me get you a proposal and I'll send it to you by end of day Wednesday, and you purposely set a milestone that you can then do.
“You cannot build credibility and trust in the first call. You can begin to, and you want to give yourselves those opportunities and take advantage of those opportunities, but it really does take time. So patience is key when trying to build credibility.” – Andres Lares · [15:58]
Andres Lares:
Then also, I'll follow up with you the following Wednesday, just to make sure, to check in to see if you have any questions. You do that. Then, a week later, you give yourself these milestones and these activities, and things that you say you're going to do, and you do them, and you build reliability. That's another quick way to build it. I bring that up because as much as you're speeding up the process, as you can tell, that takes time. You cannot build credibility and trust in the first call. You can begin to, and you want to give yourselves those opportunities and take advantage of those hacks, if you will. It really does take time.
Andres Lares:
Patience is the one other factor I would throw in there.
The Emotional Piece of Rapidly Trying to Build Credibility · [16:12]
Will Barron:
[inaudible 00:16:12] emotion, how much of this is actually in the control of the salesperson, and how much of this is in the upbringing, the four patterns, the beliefs, the cultural elements of the buyer themselves of, we're taught as kids, stranger danger and all this kind of stuff. How much of that is the variable, versus our skillset in the marketplace, to be able to attempt to rapidly build credibility?
Andres Lares:
The emotion piece, I think, if we segue to that, is something that you have control over. Not complete control, certainly, but you certainly have control over … I'll give you the example again, a lot of studies around this, we did it in our book, but there's a lot of them out there, which say that people are more afraid, and it's more powerful to lose something, than it is to gain something.
Andres Lares:
The simple example that is, that Will, as an average person, will feel more pain if he loses $100, let's say, at a casino in roulette, then he will if he gains $100, he makes $100 from playing that same game. Just as an example of that, the crudest example, the reason I bring that up is, then, when you're talking to someone, if you want to engage emotions and you want to really compel someone to be activated in this conversation, and engaged, you might spend more time on, okay, walk me through, explain to me the challenge you face, and why is that so frustrating? You get them talking about it.
Andres Lares:
That is a lot more compelling on the flip side, and going straight to the solution on the positive. That's just a perfect example of, you don't have complete control. The person doesn't have to go along with you, which is some of the art, if you will, that you get them going along with you. The science tells us that, if you get them talking about the struggles, the challenges they face, and how it makes them feel, what would happen if they get beyond that, that is something that's going to engage in emotionally, in a much more powerful way, than going straight to the solutions.
Andres Lares:
That's where the credibility and the emotions start to bridge together, where the story would say, I've seen conversations like this before. Here's a solution we came up with. I want to go back to what you're facing, and dig in a little more, and you start really asking questions about that. That's where you now start balancing step one, step two, in that process.
Why Building Credibility Should be Enjoyable · [18:30]
Will Barron:
Should this process be, fun might be an extreme word to describe it, but should it be an enjoyable process for the buyer and the seller? Because, if you take away the sales element of this, of, I'm going to sit down with Andres, he's going to tell me some stories, he's going to build some emotion, there might be a bit of a logical element to this, to bring things back down and to wrap things up. Hopefully, I'm going to get some kind of benefit out of it, and I'll be able to move forward with this, or stop this pain point, or something like that.
Will Barron:
If you talk about this from a, even a therapy perspective or a mentoring perspective, it sounds like it's going to be really productive and everyone's happy. As soon as you mention sales, and you sprinkle that in, everyone's a bit nervous. Barriers come up in the mind of the buyer a lot of the time, and salespeople feel like they're almost battling for attention. If this is done by someone like yourself, who's highly skilled in these steps of influence and storytelling, and all the other stuff that we're talking about, should this be an enjoyable couple of phone calls between buyer and seller?
Andres Lares:
First of all, I want to put that in my bio, that Will Barron has said I'm highly skilled in this area. There's a couple things. One is, we've all heard that people don't like being sold too. I think that's part of this too, that if you think about, we always laugh. In some of the sessions, our facilitators will often share a very relatable story about going into a store. If we go into a store to buy a pair of pants, or a clothing store of some kind, and you'll come in.
Andres Lares:
What's the first question you're asked? Is, “May I help you,” from the store person, salesperson. What's their immediate response? Is, no, I'm okay, I'm just looking. What's interesting is, we've come in, and we could just be looking. In many cases, we're coming in looking for a specific pair of pants or shirt or a sweater, but we would rather go find it ourselves rather than literally take advantage of this resource that is meant to do exactly that.
Andres Lares:
If we were to say, “Hey, I want this sweater in large,” that's their job is to help us do that. Instead, we don't want to be sold to. We say, we're just looking, to get that space, to make our own decision and to get that space. I think that's a perfect example. I think we have to keep that in mind.
“The salespeople that are genuinely curious in a process that’s truly collaborative are very successful because the other side senses that genuine curiosity, and so they're more willing to share. They truly are collaborating. That's how you get to the best solution.” – Andres Lares · [21:01]
Andres Lares:
To your question, I would say, what drives all this? In some cases, it could be fun. I think the best salespeople enjoy it. I think the differentiator we saw from the most successful salespeople, is there's genuine curiosity. When they're doing what we talked about, they really are curious as salespeople. That's today's challenge is to learn about, what's Will struggling with, why, what have they done before, and then to come up with a solution together with Will. Those that see it as, there's genuine curiosity in a process that truly is collaborative, are very successful, because the other side senses that genuine curiosity, they're more willing to share. They truly are collaborating.
Andres Lares:
That's how you get to the best solution. Now, it's hard to do, and that's the art maybe less than the science, but the genuine curiosity is the biggest driver, I think, of that.
Will Barron:
I think a lot of this, I use that example that you're talking about there. You go to Levi's to buy a pair of jeans. Most of the time, there's a spotty teenager there who you're just like, get out the way. Then, you spend twice as long in there, trying on different jeans, when they could just tell you, because all they do is sell jeans all day, and they could've saved half an hour of messing around. Yet, we turn them down.
Will Barron:
If you flip down on its head, if you're lucky enough to go and buy a luxury watch, an expensive watch, or a car or something, if you're going into a Rolex store, Omega store, whatever it is, and you're damn well expecting someone knowledgeable is going to come over and hold your hand, because that's part of the service. You might even get a glass of champagne or something, if you make a purchase on the spot there. That's part of the experience.
Statement Against Self Interest: The One Thing You Can Use to Build Credibility Fast · [22:10]
Will Barron:
What can we do if, we'll use Sam the salesperson, he's selling HR software, it's super boring, but Sam is curious, and he does really care about his customers, and he cares about the fact that if he serves them well, he's going to get a big fat commission check at the end of the month as well, to be real about it. How does he change the perception of the prospect to shift them from the Levi's store rep, that when they walk into the store, they're not interested, to, hey, I'm actually here to add value, and you're paying for my time, whether you realise it or not, if you make a purchase, because the price of the product is factoring in the fact that we've got staff here, and we've got training, we've got all the facilities.
Will Barron:
How would you go about changing the perception of a prospect on, whether it's via before you reach out, if you're trying to warm up a lead before you get on a call with them, or on a call, or wherever it is, how would you change the perception that you're actually there to help them, as opposed to, you are a pesky old-school salesperson just trying to grab cash out their back pocket?
Andres Lares:
I think even in the example you brought up, we've talked about that first step, credibility. The person selling the Rolex has the credibility to borrow from Rolex. Rolex is a world-famous brand. That comes with the expectation that that salesperson will be very knowledgeable with the product. The value they bring to the table may not be, they don't need to sell you on buying a watch, and they don't need to understand why you're buying a watch necessarily, but they certainly, at the very least, need to have a lot of product understanding.
Andres Lares:
That's what you're tapping into. The value they bring to you is when you ask, okay, what's the difference between this one and that one, those sorts of … Tell me more about how these are made, or whatever it is that you're interested in finding out, they should be a valuable resource there. Them being a valuable resource is how they prove and demonstrate their credibility.
Andres Lares:
I would say in the other case, there's a couple of ways that Sam, selling HR software, for example, can do that. One is using statements against self-interest. To quickly do that, again, it has to be genuine. The concept of, I'm not sure this is going to work for you, sometimes is done disingenuously. Your HR software probably doesn't work for everybody. For example, there may be a sweet spot of companies too big or too small, or some industries you're more or less likely for that to work.
Andres Lares:
That's a perfect example of, if you're generally having the first few minutes of a conversation around, Will, I've got a few questions for you, and then based on that, we can pretty quickly find out whether or not this could be a good fit. Now, and this would be the million-dollar piece to it, if every single time you go into those few questions, and it's always a “good fit,” then, your process isn't necessarily really genuine.
Andres Lares:
If that truly is, and here's what's crazy, I can tell you that, I've had this, we've had salespeople on our team had this, and I've been on podcasts before, very successful people talk about these stories, where you sometimes will get a better referral and long-term client from people that you can even say at the beginning, where it truly isn't a fit. You build credibility by saying, Will, right now based on your size, I'm not sure it makes sense to go to our payroll services, our HR services, but let's keep in touch and figure it out if it changes.
Andres Lares:
Then, what happens is, if Will moves to another company, think about how much credibility you build by bringing that up, by being very clear around, look, in this case, it just doesn't make sense. It's not fitting a square peg into a round hole.
Andres Lares:
I think statement against self-interest is a big one, where you walk through. Again, if every single time, you're asking those questions early on to qualify, and every single time they're a fit, then it's probably not … You've got to adjust that a little bit. If there are a few times where it isn't a fit, and you can tell that person, or at least not a fit at the moment, then I think that's a pretty effective way to build credibility, and to get that early on.
Andres Lares:
I would say that happens even in the prospecting stage. It's not like, Will, I know this will work for you, but instead it's, I only need 10 minutes of your time. Look, in the third email, when I haven't even got 10 minutes of Will's time, I'm going to send him an email, here's three or four questions you should start thinking about. Then, based on a brief conversation, or even you answering by email, I could tell you if it's even worth your time to spend 10 minutes. That kind of concept again is, there's credibility to that.
Andres Lares:
There's empathy there, where they understand that I'm busy. They're going to figure out for me, whether or not this is worth my time.
Should You Be Using Manipulative Selling Techniques Even When They Can Potentially Yield Intended Results? · [26:25]
Will Barron:
When we're talking about being, because I'm conscious about being flippant and cliche about this. When we talk about being authentic, we talk about being genuine, to make this practical for the audience, obviously most humans, depending on how perhaps your brain's wired, we have a gut instinct, gut feeling, whatever we want to call it, of someone is lying to us. Someone is manipulating, something isn't right.
Will Barron:
Maybe there's a level of skill with … It becomes a manipulation then. Maybe there's a level of skill of manipulation, where you can overcome that feeling that people have. I think a lot of salespeople believe that they are incredible at influence and negotiation, when there's no evidence at all that they are, myself included. I used to think I was killer, all of this stuff. I'd read a few books on it. My real first sales job was working in medical device sales. I'd be dealing with surgeons all day, and they all think that they're amazing negotiations, and it's a bit of a boy's club, and we'd all be battling over these things.
Will Barron:
Then when you start doing real deals with actual deal makers in large organisations in the corporate world, you soon realise that, I soon realised, I didn't actually know anything. I was not necessarily from a malicious place trying to manipulate people, but I was trying to just smash through barriers, and talk over people, and do weird tricks and things to try and take control of a situation.
Will Barron:
Now, when I negotiate, it's very much from an authentic place of, here's the deal, you can either have it or not have it. You're not going to change my life either way. That's where things are. Deals come in so much easier, cleaner and smoother on the back of that.
Will Barron:
My question, Andres, is, for the average person, should they focus on just being real, authentic, not bullshitting and trying to learn some of these skills to put people on the right pathway so we can help them, or is the scope to … Is it possible to manipulate people, is what I'm getting at, in a buyer/seller relationship? Not necessarily from a long-term perspective, from a short-term. Could you teach us black arts and black magic and some witchery, and maybe we've got to have a weird shrine, and we've got to sacrifice a sheep or something, before we jump onto the call.
Will Barron:
Is it possible to manipulate people and get deals done, or it's just so difficult to do, that we should just focus on the softer skills, the easier stuff that we're talking about here, that actually gets results? That's a terrible question, but I'm going to let you try and answer it anyway.
Andres Lares:
I'm all of a sudden going to take this to left field for a second, because the answer to that, actually, I want to make a connection to the Tinder Swindler. It's big on Netflix. Your question, can you manipulate? I think the answer very much is yes. For those that haven't watched the show, I think the title says it all, but there definitely is the ability to manipulate.
“The reality about manipulation is that if it's against their will, it’s really not something you want to be doing.” – Andres Lares · [29:44]
Andres Lares:
I think, and it's one of the reasons, when we wrote our book, one of the first chapters is about that, is about the ethics. It's short, because we could write so much about it. There could be a whole book on that. The reality is, what we say is, if it's against their will, is that really what you want to be doing?
Andres Lares:
It's also so short-term. Short-term, eventually you'll find out, eventually, it just doesn't feel good. Eventually, it catches up with you, and that's, for us, when we're training people, we're training for a sustained process, that they can continue all the way through their entire career. If anything, if you're in sales, those relationships you build, they begin to really … It's like a snowball. They really begin to pay dividends over the course of your career. I'm sure you've seen this, where friendships you've made, business relationships you've had for five, 10, 15, 20 years pay off no matter what you do in referrals and advice and everything else.
Andres Lares:
There definitely is the ability to manipulate. It is hard, what's authentic and what's not. I think it starts with, at the core is, do you believe in the product or service that you're selling?
Andres Lares:
I think that that's almost underappreciated. If you're in sales, that's the first piece you need to do, rather than necessarily getting into that big company we talked about earlier, there is an advantage to the credibility, you can borrow from a really big company everyone's heard of, but more important than that is, do you really believe in it? That alone, you'll naturally, even without thinking about it, that's going to ooze out of you, because you genuinely feel like, if they listen to you and it's a good fit, you're going to be providing value.
Andres Lares:
That's the first step. If you want to do it naturally, that's the first step. Then, there's some other aspects that are trained. I think the trained piece is around, really, like you said, asking questions to understand what their needs are, in a way that the answer can't always be, this is a perfect fit. If those two are happening, I would say you're probably 90% of the way there. Then, that last 10% really is the art and science that you can fine tune over experience, do the training, experimenting, all those things take you to the last little bit, but those first two are, in my opinion, very significant.
Negotiation and Influence in Sales. It’s Not That Complicated · [31:35]
Will Barron:
Is it fair to say then that me in this conversation, and maybe some of the audience as they look into negotiation, influence? Is it easy to over-complicate this?
Andres Lares:
It is. I think, and that's why I know in your podcast, it's something that you talk about, the simplicity and the ability to execute. This is exactly why the book is the four-step process, and not the 72 ways to persuade, because the reality is, if you go back to the four we talked about, even if you haven't read it, even if you know aren't an expert in each area, just even the concepts alone. First, you build credibility.
Andres Lares:
The first time you're reaching out to a potential client, you want to figure out, okay, how am I going to gain credibility? Why are they even going to care? Where's my perceived credibility going to come from? Engage emotion. I'm not going to go straight the logic. I want to attach this to something that they care about. Then, the logic is, how do I do that? Whether it's a story or something very … A logical consequence or conclusion based on the emotion and the credibility. Then finally, facilitate action. Okay. Let's do things to, whether it's providing options or maintaining momentum, let's do things that make it more likely that we are going to be able to advance the sale.
Andres Lares:
If you think about just that process, again, an example of simple, if you and I talk today about 77 ways to do something, none of them will resonate. If we stick to four, the likelihood that those four will resonate is significantly higher, and that they'll be usable is significantly higher.
Will Barron:
Okay. We'll wrap up the show with this, Andres. Are each of these segments, and say, we're trying to do this on, just to simplify our example here, we're going to try and do this on one call. The prospect has booked a meeting into our calendar. We have enough credibility that they want to speak to us about our projects or services. We've borrowed credibility from elsewhere. Maybe we are genuinely experts in our space as well.
How to Take Your Prospects Down the Path of Credibility, Emotion, and Eventually Taking Action · [33:34]
Will Barron:
They want to speak with us. The emotion, the logic, the facilitate action, they go in that order. Are we doing emotion, and then we transition to logic, and then we transition to facilitating action, or is this more of a washing effect, where they knock into each other, and there's less of a hard transition between each one?
Andres Lares:
I would say the latter. I think it's important, especially, most of us are selling remotely, or there's a significant remote piece of it. Just one other practical tip that I think will answer that question is, as an example, you're talking to a potential prospect now, and especially for those folks that may have been selling in person, but now have to continue to sell remotely due to COVID. If you think about, okay, credibility starts from the emails, the setting up a call, all the things you've done to even get the call. You probably have some credibility enough to at least get the call.
Andres Lares:
Then, generally, again, for those folks that used to meet in person, they would spend an hour with someone at their office or at their manufacturing facility or whatever, they're used to running the sales process in one way. I would say, now you've gone online, now, you've probably gone from an hour, an hour and a half, to 30 minutes, and it's online. Engage emotion. If you follow that, where they start going back and forth, what would you do in those 30 minutes?
Andres Lares:
While most of us feel the need to rush through the sales pitch, “Usually I've got an hour, but now I only have 30 minutes.” Instead, do these exact opposite, which is, those 30 minutes, you can send a proposal, you can send a PowerPoint, you can work through it on email, all the details of the things that you want to do from a logic perspective, all of the value proposition, you can do all that, but you cannot replicate the relationship with the bonding and the emotional aspect of the sale.
Andres Lares:
Those 30 minutes should really be totally on emotion, totally on discovery, because everything else, you can do after. You do that because, if you do enough of that in the richest medium possible, which is the video call, then that allows you enough credibility, and you engage enough emotion for them to even care about the logic that you're going to share thereafter. The sales space, the value proposition, the PowerPoint, whatever you're going to send after.
Andres Lares:
I bring that up because it is like the waves concept, where there's back and forth, and it isn't perfectly linear. It is a building of the pyramid, but it isn't perfectly linear. I think that goes into something we cover in our selling virtually programme, which is, even these and these podcasts, I would tell you, when I do podcasts, I think it's a richer conversation when there's video. Whether or not it ends up being broadcast or part of the podcast, because you can see the person, and there's the body language, the feedback.
Andres Lares:
I think it makes for a richer conversation. It's the first time you and I have met, but I feel like I know you better, and I hope you feel the same. It's just a little bit different than it would if it was completely audio-based. Hopefully, that example has a practical tip, but also answers that question of, there is some grey areas between the stages.
Will Barron:
Yep. That makes total sense. I'm conscious of time, because we could do an episode on each one of these four steps individually, and how it's twined, and another episode on … We could even role play some of this. I think there'd be value for the audience. There's one thing I don't think we've covered yet, and I want to wrap up the show with this, and this idea of, we're not doing this to someone. Tell me if I'm wrong here, but we're not throwing this out at someone.
Will Barron:
This is a conversation. This is seeing their body language, as you mentioned, their cues, their triggers, if they're interested, if they're not in their head. Is there anything that we need to be looking out to, perhaps in one or two lines for each of these steps, for how we know that we've achieved that, and we can move on to the next one?
Here’s How To Know If You’re Credible Enough · [37:20]
Will Barron:
What I mean by that is, how do we know if we've got credibility when we're on a video call? How do we know when we've ticked a few emotional boxes and we're now ready to talk about logic? Because some of the audience will take this conversation, try and turn it into a script, and just say it verbatim, hoping for a positive outcome. Again, tell me if I'm wrong. I feel like this is something that is done conversationally, as opposed to, I'm doing it's to you, Andres.
“When building credibility, you're not doing it to someone, you're doing it with someone. And I think if you've got time with the person, then they deemed you to be credible, because it's easier to say no than yes. We all have competing priorities and are busy. If you've allowed Will to take 15, 30 minutes of your time, there's enough credibility there for he or she to allow you to do that.” – Andres Lares · [37:57]
Andres Lares:
Spot on. I think, I would summarise that with the two words, you're not doing it to someone, you're doing it with someone, is the first answer. Absolutely. I think that's critical. Then, for each one, I think the earlier ones are easier. Credibility, if you've got time with the person, then they deemed you to be credible, because it's easier to say no than yes. We all have competing priorities and are busy. If you've allowed Will to take 15, 30 minutes of your time, there's enough credibility there for he or she to allow you to do that.
Andres Lares:
Then as far as emotion, I think if the person cares, if the body language is, the eye contact, video-wise, if that makes sense, if you can tell they perk up and are wanting to share more, the emotion's engaged. I would say logic is probably more around buying signals. At that point, you just start to progress. There's the buying signals of asking for pricing, or asking more specific questions. Then, the facilitate action's probably the opposite. It's one that you don't wait to see whether you're getting those signs, you're doing it anyways to make sure it doesn't happen.
Andres Lares:
Part of facilitate action is, I think as salespeople, it's harder to resuscitate a sale than it is to continue all the way through. When we lose momentum, it's hard to regain it, just like it's easier to sell to a current client, and grow a current client, than it is a new one. I would say, that one's actually the opposite, where you don't want to be waiting for that cue, “I think I'm losing this person.” You want to act as if you're not even going to let that person get to that stage by continuing to facilitate action and keep the momentum.
How to Move Into the Close After Successfully influencing Buying Decisions · [39:10]
Will Barron:
Final question for me, this is the third final question I've asked you. Should this come to a crescendo with a closing statement? Does it make sense to move forward with this? Should this big ball be getting faster and bigger and boulders removed, as it moves forward throughout the conversation? Or, should there be peaks and troughs, and should it be more chill, again, or should it be like, we're building up speed, we're building momentum, we're building that emotion, we're layering in the logic, and towards the end of it, it's like, yes, we're rocking and rolling?
Andres Lares:
It does build, and I think I expected a little bit of that when we started doing our research. Our research was, we did a research of 1000 decision makers around the world. We were trying to take away a bias of a specific culture. I expected to see more of that. We covered, for example, soft and hard closes, and whether there is that buildup into that big ask. I think one of the things that we quickly learned is, that doesn't really happen, because each one's so different. If you see a sales process as just learning about the other party, figuring out if there's a fit, and then connecting your solutions to it, it's that simple. I don't want to oversimplify, but really, it is that simple.
Andres Lares:
Then, each one's going to be a little bit different. Some people are going to … You're going to need to apply a little bit more pressure, because maybe they're changing the status quo. They've had an incumbent supplier, or, as you said, HR software partner for many years, and you've got to move them off of that. That might require a little bit more aggressiveness with a, does that make sense? Should we give this a go? Put a little bit more, not pressure, but take it up a notch.
“The most effective way to get someone to believe something is if they say it.” – Andres Lares · [41:05]
Andres Lares:
Versus in some other cases, you want to take the opposite approach, which is, you share, share, share, focus on credibility, focus on building that emotion, and give that person that space, because he or she, again, may not want to be sold to. They'll be more … I will say, one piece that ties us all together is, and we cover this in both our influencing and persuasion class, and as well also, our negotiation, which is, the most effective way to get someone to believe something is if they say it.
Andres Lares:
We're better off asking a question of, Will, what would your world look like if you were to save 10 hours a week based on your HR software? Again, those are too cliche, maybe not the perfect question, but that concept, and if you were to say, that would allow me to do X, Y, and Z, that's a lot better than, this will save me 10 hours of time, so that will allow you to do X, Y, and Z. Who believes me? I'm just a salesperson.
Andres Lares:
You may not believe me, until I gain enough credibility. Until then, asking a couple of those questions that have you come up with that, and it may not be the immediate response. It isn't, you ask Will this perfect question, and expecting to say, wow, that was a good question. I'm sold, and where do sign. That's not going to happen, but now, you've planted that seed. For that next conversation, you can assume that that person's thought a little bit about it. Now, that's the area we're going to spend a little bit more time in the discovery phase.
Andres Lares:
Hopefully, that's not too all over the place, but I think we're talking theoretical, we're also talking practical, but one of my goals was to give us few practical tools and tips that people could use immediately after they listen to this. That's another one, try to find a way you can ask that question to get to that answer, rather than tell the other party that.
“Your sales calls shouldn't be weird. It should be someone who wants to speak with you, and you want to chat with them. You want to see if you're a good fit. If you're not, fine, ask for a referral, you can follow up later on down the line.” – Will Barron · [42:20]
Will Barron:
I love it. My biggest takeaway from this show is something that I know, but I didn't know five, six years ago when I started the podcast, and when I was still working in a sales role, but I now for experience, having done thousands of sales calls for our training product, that your sales calls shouldn't, this sounds ridiculous, your sales calls shouldn't be weird. It should be someone who wants to speak with you, and you want to chat with them. You see if you're a good fit. If you're not, fine, ask for a referral, you can follow up later on down the line. As you mentioned, they might change jobs. They might go to different companies. Budget appears six months down the line, whatever it is, you just stay in contact, add that little bit value, share some industry insights every quarter, whatever it is.
Will Barron:
The conversation, you don't have to be best friends with the person that you're chatting with, but it should be a half decent little conversation. It shouldn't be weird. You shouldn't be reading from a script, the next step number 27 than in the manipulation formula. Because even as you mentioned earlier on-
Andres Lares:
I feel like … when you start saying that, I …
Will Barron:
That would be an interesting show in its own right, to look at the black arts of influence and negotiation, and see maybe what we shouldn't be doing with some of this. I feel like, what I'm taking away from this is, it should be just a fun … Fun's a strong word. It should be a constructive conversation between two adults, talking about a business problem, and whether the business you can represent solves it. There shouldn't be no pressure. I know we're talking about negotiations, influence and persuasion here.
Will Barron:
A lot of those words have a level of pressure tied to them. In the negotiation, most people assume I'm trying to win a negotiation. As opposed to, we're trying to compromise and come to a solution that everyone's onboard with. This is societal, this is culture and films that, there's no boardroom negotiation in any film where everyone's like, “Oh, I enjoyed that conversation.” You have some pastries and a cup of coffee and you just have a chat about things. It's obviously culturally, negotiation has things tied to it.
Why Your Sales Conversations With Prospects Should Never Be Weird · [44:30]
Will Barron:
Am I on the right tracks here that, a sales conversation, as we just outlined, when we've got credibility, especially if it's an inbound lead where the prospect wants to speak to us, we should just be having a nice chat with them?
Andres Lares:
Yeah. It's hard though, because I think that requires confidence. I love the way you said, and I agree, fun might be almost too strong, but not a far stretch to say enjoyable. That's the thing, and we get to one other piece we didn't cover at all, though, [inaudible 00:44:51] building is, people like doing business with people that they like. That's a part of it. That is a means to an end. If Will's the nice guy that you enjoy talking to, you're more likely to talk to Will, which makes it more likely for him to make the sale.
Andres Lares:
There is an immediate advantage to doing that. If you enjoy it and they enjoy it, good things will come from it, no matter what. That really can only come if you're genuine, if you have enough confidence, because early on in your career, you're reading from the script, because you're thinking, I really don't want to screw this up. You said something earlier today where, you've gotten to a point in your career where you say, look, this is it, and if it doesn't work for you, that's okay. If it does, great.
Andres Lares:
That confidence that you have. Just to be fair, if you're starting your career, you're not at that point. You don't have the confidence to feel like you have the ability to do that. I can certainly relate to that, and early on for anyone's career, that's a stage where they're in. The enjoying aspect is, I think, highly underappreciated and underrated.
Parting Thoughts · [45:50]
Will Barron:
Sure. I agree. I joined this conversation. With that, tell us a little bit more about NSI, and tell us more about the book, and where we can find it as well.
Andres Lares:
Yeah, absolutely. The Shapiro Negotiations Institute, the acronym is a global negotiation influence and sales training firm, based in Baltimore. We do work all over, and actually, excited to share that we've been doing, I think, five languages, and now we're up to eight. Certainly, taking that global to the next level. Then, the book is behind me there, right behind my head, Persuade. It's exactly that, The 4-Step Process to Influence People.
Andres Lares:
If you've heard today, that's what it's all about. I really appreciate meeting you, Will, and I enjoy your podcast very much.
Will Barron:
I'm glad to have you on. I will link to that, everything else we talked about in this show, in the show notes of this episode, are at salesman.org. With that, Andres, again, genuinely, I don't say this in every episode, love to have you back on the future. Love to dive into this in more detail, and thanks again for joining us on the Salesman Podcast.
Will You Make It? The Characteristics Of Sales High Performers | Salesman Podcast
Mar 02, 2022
Jeff Bajorek is a sales and prospecting expert who helps B2B sellers rethink the way they sell. In this episode of the Salesman Podcast, Jeff explains the traits of high performers and how you can become one today.
You'll learn:
Sponsored by:
Free SalesCode assessment
Learn your strengths and weaknesses in an instant. Taken by over 10,000+ of your competitors. Don't get left behind.
Take the free assessment
Featured on this episode:
Host - Will Barron
Founder of Salesman.org
Guest - Jeff Bajorek
Sales and Prospecting Expert
Hi, my name is Will, and welcome to the Salesman Podcast. On today's episode, we're looking at the characteristics of top sales performers with my guest, Jeff Bajorek. Jeff is a sales and pro expert who helps B2B sales rethink the way they sell. You can find his new podcast, Rethink The Way You Sell, on everywhere, right, Jeff? And with that, mate, welcome to the show.
Jeff Bajorek:
Thanks for having me. It's good to be here again.
Characteristics of a High-Achieving Sales Professional · [00:49]
Will Barron:
You're more than welcome. I think this is the fourth time we've had you on. We'll touch on the podcast Rethink The Way You Sell towards the end of the show: where we can find it. I know it's a new and exciting project for you, so I'm happy to get it out there and promote it to our audience. But with that, mate, we're going to touch on this idea of characteristic of top sales performers. And you, when we lined this show up, used the word characteristics. So what does that mean? Is this a personality trait? Is this our DNA? Is this things that we've learned? What defines a characteristic of a salesperson? Then we'll dive into the ones that make the difference when we're all trying to hit quota.
“I think there's a 5% difference between mediocrity and super-stardom. It’s the little things that really make the difference between those top performers and everybody else.” – Jeff Bajorek · [01:05]
Jeff Bajorek:
Yeah. I've been saying for years: I think there's a 5% difference between mediocrity and super-stardom, and while there are certainly things that are innate to us that may make us better intuitively at some of these things than others, there's nothing on this list that I don't think anybody can do. We can all be just a little bit better if we have some focus in these areas or for these characteristics. So it's the little things. I'm trying to codify the little things that really make the difference between those top performers and, really, everybody else. And I think it's something, if people want to aspire to it, they can get it.
Can a Person Achieve Sales Success Without the Characteristics of a High-Achieving Salesperson? · [01:51]
Will Barron:
Can you have sales success without these characteristics? And I'll give you an example here that I've seen; undoubtedly, you've seen as well. You'll be at a company, whether you're selling there, consulting there, whatever you're doing, sales leadership in their company. And some new kid will come along who doesn't know the product, doesn't know what they're doing, and then they have an amazing first six months and they crush everyone who seemingly does know the product, does have all these characteristics and does know what they're doing. So does that disprove these characteristics, or is it likely that this individual just has a bunch of these characteristics naturally and that's why they crush it?
Jeff Bajorek:
Well, it's important, and I'll probably get a bill for this, but my old mentor used to say all the time, “Look, we don't sell in a vacuum.” There are things that happen outside of our control that impact our results all the time. So that fresh-faced kid right out of school comes and has just a tremendous first six months, first year, and rockets to the top of the leaderboard? Yeah, that can happen. That can happen by dumb luck. That can happen by doing the right things, maybe for the wrong reasons or not knowing why he or she should be doing those things.
Jeff Bajorek:
But as far as sustained success… Okay, year one was great. What are you going to do when your quota gets jacked up? What are you going to do the year after that? What are you going to do to retain those customers? Or what are you going to do to continue to find those things that are really going to move the needle for you?
Jeff Bajorek:
And Will, I think this might have been something we talked about in the past. It's worth talking about again, regardless, but there are a lot of people who get moved into leadership positions, get promoted beyond their real skillset, and their problem is not that they weren't successful before. It's that they don't know why. And so when you get into a leadership role, particularly, and you just say, to your reps, “Just do it like I did. This is how I always did it. Put it out there,” it doesn't usually work because there isn't that understanding or clarification behind it.
Will Barron:
I don't think I've ever talked about this on the podcast before. Hopefully this will be a good analogy for the audience. My first medical device sales job was a company called Olympus that's super well known; the products are the best for flexible endoscopes and pretty good for rigid endoscopes in the marketplace.
Will Barron:
Well, I took over on my territory from the ex-managing-director of the company. So he was managing director for… His name was Doug, right? Managing director for a decade. And then I think basically he had a few kids, maybe he had twins or something, and so he's like, “Right, I'm going to take a few steps back. I'm going to go into this senior sales role,” three or four years, whatever it is, have that work-life balance, whatever he was after, and then he'd go back into the managing director role, which he did. And I think he ended up moving to the States and taking over the business over there later on as well.
The Truth About Luck in Sales · [04:59]
Will Barron:
So I didn't really understand this when I first joined the company, but I thought sales was just super easy and simple. I was the example that I've just given at the top of the show, of: I come in, there's a bunch of deals already happening; I ought to just show up and hand over the order form to get some signatures. Absolutely crushed it that first year. So of course, what happens? My target doubles the next year and things get a little bit more tight from that moment onwards as I had to deal with my own mortality in sales. Right? So I love the way you describe that of the environment, the marketplace, things are in flux, and it is fair that people just have luck sometimes when they jump into sales roles, isn't it?
Jeff Bajorek:
Yeah. And I don't think we should hold it against those people. I think we should reserve judgement , obviously, because hey, we'll see what happens next year, but look, you fall to a good gig? Great. There's a lot of jealousy, right? You see people on teams: “Well, she's doing great because she took over from the managing director.” Okay, whatever. I mean, there's no room for that. I don't understand how that helps you as a seller. Right? So if we could stay away from that petty stuff, I think we'd be a lot better off.
Jeff Bajorek:
But look, luck happens. Good territories happen. I worked in medical device sales too. What happened when a whale of a customer decided to move to your territory? Hey, you know what? It means a lot of responsibility too. Maybe it was a gift that landed in someone's lap, but now they got to figure out how to continue to deal with that. Right? And it's not as easy as everybody thinks, so let's move on. What's going to be productive for you, regardless of what's happening two counties over?
How to Identify a Top Performing Sales Professional · [06:18]
Will Barron:
So with that in mind, then, things that we can control, hopefully: what are the characteristics, Jeff, of top sales performers?
“Great salespeople don't apologise for being in sales. When you're in sales and you're proud of the profession, it means that you're constantly trying to solve problems for other people.” – Jeff Bajorek · [06:37]
Jeff Bajorek:
I've boiled it down to seven, and I think where I've gotten feedback where I'm missing something, I'm actually not missing it; I just categorise it a little bit different. So I think the first one is they're proud to call themselves sellers. I think first and foremost, great salespeople don't apologise for being in sales. And so that's something that is pretty simple, not always easy to wrap your brain around, but when you're in sales and you're proud of the profession, it means that you're other-oriented. You're trying to solve problems for other people, and I think that comes through in personal branding really well too. I mean, I'm really proud to help people the way that I do, Will, and I know you are too, and I just think there's still too many people apologising for helping people the way they do.
“One of the only ways you can sell more is by spending more time selling.” – Jeff Bajorek · [07:40]
Jeff Bajorek:
The second big thing is that they have a really strong why or purpose, and behind that, we got into just a minute ago the pettiness of some salespeople and wondering about what's going on in the territory next to them. But when you have a really strong purpose, you're focused. You're disciplined. You create really, really strong boundaries, and that helps you get organised so you spend the time that you need, the time that you can, doing the things only you can do. And that's really, really powerful in terms of just not being distracted, because look, one of the only ways you can sell more is by spending more time selling, and that means boundaries. I think top performers treat selling as a vocation, not just a job, and we can get into that. I mean, it's continuous improvement really inspired by the work that they do. Top performers take responsibility for their own outcomes. That means doing what needs to be done to get the outcome for the client, not just saying, “That's my job,” or, “That's not my job.”
Jeff Bajorek:
And then just the last few: they think about what needs to be done, not how to do something. They're not following any paint-by-numbers sales manual or playbook. They think about what needs to be done and then they execute in the best way that they can. I think this is probably the biggest one.
Jeff Bajorek:
The last two: they create an environment to buy rather than just pitching a product. And they also keep their swagger, which is a great mindset. And they lean into adversity. They make sure they always move forward and they are really channelling that inner rock-star when they do their best work. That's my high level running through that, Will. Where do you want to go deeper?
Why You Need to Treat Your Sales Career as a Vocation · [08:45]
Will Barron:
What does it mean to be in a sales career as a vocation, and on top of that, when does your sales role allow you to do that? Because if you're selling some crappy product for a crappy company, it's very difficult to turn that into a vocation. And maybe it's your first job out of college, or maybe you were struggling and you got let go during the pandemic so you just had to grab any sales job that was available. What does it mean to treat your sales role as a vocation, and then what jobs and positions enable you to actually do that?
Jeff Bajorek:
Well, I think any job enables you to actually do that, and there are some people out there right now who aren't selling for the company they want to be selling for near the end of their career. Maybe there's a short lifespan in this role. That's okay. But think about what you're doing. Think about the way that you interact with and impact other people. And even if this is a short-term stop on your career-long journey, there's still a lot of greater, broader concepts that you can put into play selling what you're selling right now. So I think it's just seeing the bigger picture, and if this is a step along the way, then great, keep your eyes open for opportunities elsewhere. But while you are where you are at, do the best work that you can and figure out how you can be a little bit better.
Jeff Bajorek:
Again, it's continuous improvement. It's looking at not just your weak points, but look at the ways that you can double down on your strengths. Test things. Maybe this is a laboratory. You've been to these same shows. Well, I used to love going to trade shows and especially when it wasn't in my territory, because I would run into my friends and my colleagues. I'd run into their physicians, and I'd run into a lot of physicians that weren't really being called on by anybody in a company, and that was a laboratory for me. I could see which openers would work. I could see which questions were going to get some thought and things like that. And nobody lost, right? There was nothing to lose. So are you tinkering? Are you playing around a little bit?
Will Barron:
Are you familiar with the book The One Thing?
Jeff Bajorek:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Will Barron:
Have you read it, right?
Jeff Bajorek:
I have.
The Only Characteristic You Need to Become a High-Achieving Sales Professional · · [11:08]
Will Barron:
Out of these seven traits, is there one of them that, if you've got it, makes all the rest of them either obsolete or unnecessary? Is there one thing that you either need to have right before the rest of them will fall into place, or is there one thing that if you have it and you can leverage that in your sales role, the rest of it doesn't really matter?
Jeff Bajorek:
It's like asking me to pick my favourite child. I love that book. I love that concept. It's tough to get these down to just one, and I think even if I did, it would be that the other would fall underneath it. And I think it's either taking responsibility for your outcomes, or thinking in terms of what needs to be done, not how to do it. And I think thinking in terms of what needs to be done, not just how to do it, probably it's arguable which one is superlative to that.
Jeff Bajorek:
And having a broader scope, seeing the bigger picture, I think… And maybe that's just it. Maybe we just combine them all, because all of this is about seeing the bigger picture, right? It's boundaries, it's your professional reputation, it's your mindset. It's the tactics of things aren't as important as that broader framework of understanding the rules of the game and putting yourself in position to win. And that, I think, when you look at top performers, they're seeing things differently, and it's because they're giving themselves permission to see things differently.
Jeff Bajorek:
When I started my career, similar to yours, Will, I took over a territory that my new managing director, if you will, had, and there was a rep between me and him. But I would sell with him and we'd be in the field together, and I would look at him and say, “Wow. Do I need to be like you in order to sell this way, in order to sell this product?” And then I'd go with other senior reps and I'd be like, “No, I don't do it like him either, or like her either. Huh.” But then I step back and I'm like, “Okay, but what are they all doing? What's the common theme?” And I think a top performer understands those common themes and creates an ecosystem for themself to work within it.
Will Barron:
I think a lot of this comes down to… And I'm surprised you didn't say this. I'm surprised, but I can understand, because as I say this, I feel like some weird leadership guru who wrote a book that was three pages of content and then the rest of it was just nonsense, like most business books out there, when we talk about the importance of your why and the importance of your purpose and the importance of knowing who you are, stuff like this. There's a lot of woo-woo, nonsense, leadership mumbo-jumbo in some of this content.
Will Barron:
But as I said, I feel like that goes above everything else. I don't mean your why as in, “I want to save the world with my sales job,” because you're not going to save the world with your sales job, right? You're going to go and help people, you're going to exchange your expertise and time for money, and then you're going to pay off your mortgage, put your kids through college, whatever it is, buy your nice car, go on holidays and maybe retire early and then move on to something that's probably going to have more impact, if that's what you care about.
Why It’s So Important to Find Your Why in Sales · [14:35]
Will Barron:
But that why, that purpose, that then leads you to question the game that you play. It leads you to not seek permission to see things differently. It leads you to become perhaps unapologetic as a salesperson. Is there a thread there of the why that you have and the purpose that you have, even if it's as simple as, “Hey, I grew up poor, I don't like having debt and I've got to pay off this mortgage so that I feel confident and calm and secure in everything else in life; that's going to lead me to be proactive in my sales to do the right things and to close some deals”?
Jeff Bajorek:
Well, I mean, along those lines, that's why there are seven and not one, right? I mean, we can argue about which one is more important or a bigger concept or whatever, and I mean, I'm not going to argue with you and your point as the guy who had a podcast called The Why and The Buy for five years. The importance of that purpose is not lost on me, right? And I think it's really interesting. This is fun campfire talk, right? Let's dig into all of this and bring up these different points, right? I mean, that's what I love about what guys like you and I do. So, yes, I won't argue with you, but if we talked about this again tomorrow, we may come up with different answers, too.
The Traits You Should Drop if You Want to Enjoy Long-Term Sales Success · [16:20]
Will Barron:
Sure. I want you to argue with me. I want you to battle me over it, because the problem that I've got in the show at the moment, Jeff, is I'm inviting people on that I want to speak to. Right? And we're all on the same wavelength, so the conversations are 80%, “Oh, this is a good point. Yeah, I agree. This is a great point. Oh yes, it's fantastic. Oh yes.” The audience think we're just sat there stroking each other's egos. So with that, feel free to battle me on some of this, right? Are there any personality traits, or to use your language here, are there any characteristics that we need to extinguish or leave behind that will hold us back? So some of it is the inverse of what we've talked about so far, right?
Jeff Bajorek:
Right.
Will Barron:
But is there any other, even anything counterintuitive that we need to drop to have success in sales?
Jeff Bajorek:
Yeah. I think salespeople need to readdress their dysfunctional relationship with failure and they need to address their dysfunctional relationship with rejection. And I don't mean get thicker skin. I don't mean be tougher. I mean, you need to redefine what failure and rejection are, and, I think, learn to thrive, right? Learn to embrace what those things do. Now, I don't think there's much rejection in sales at all, because I don't think rejection actually happens till someone hears you out and then says, “Will, I see what you're doing there. That's not for us.” That's rejection. Right? Most of what people call rejection in sales is really people just never having paid any attention, and I don't think you can be rejected unless someone's paying attention to you. So the getting hung up on during your cold-calling blocks and things like that, not only is it not personal, it's also not valid as rejection. So stop saying you're being rejected all the time.
Jeff Bajorek:
The other thing with regard to failure is are you learning something? Every sales call that I learn something that helps make me rather better at my next sales call, that's a win. And again, it's that broader scope, right? If that sales call didn't go the way I thought it would, and so now I see this small picture, this small deal here, not being able to advance, and so I'll probably lose, okay, whatever. But if I step back and say, “I'm going to be doing this for probably another 30 or 40 more years and I just learned something there that will alter the trajectory of the rest of my sales calls for the next 30 or 40 years even in a small way,” that's a win.
“Every failure is an opportunity to learn. If you choose not to learn, that's a real failure.” – Jeff Bajorek · [18:49]
Jeff Bajorek:
That's a big win, because those little steps continue to add up, and no step is too small if it's headed in the right direction and you keep taking steps, right? So let's be real about what we're doing here, and that's what I mean about that scope, right? So quit trying to do it right. Think about what needs to be done, not what everybody else is doing. And every failure is an opportunity to learn. If you choose not to learn, that's a real failure.
The Link Between Sales Success and Developing the Characteristics of a High-Performing Sales Person · [18:59]
Will Barron:
How much of sales success comes down to these characteristic? Some of the characteristics that we've described are soft skills. Some of them are more logical things that we need to learn and implement, right? How much of it comes down to, for example, these characteristics versus what you're touching on there, which is the scientific method, which is we make a hypothesis, we test it in the marketplace, we get results, we then refine our hypothesis, and we do this forever because the marketplace is constantly changing. We are constantly changing. The product cycle is changing as well. How much does success in sales come down to, for example, the seven characteristics that you've just described, which we could write a book about now and it'll still be relevant 20 years from now, versus a scientific method, which is this logical iterative process.
Jeff Bajorek:
Well, I think there are elements of both, right? Because there are certain non-negotiable things that have to happen in a sales process, which is why the science exists. But in terms of being able to impact more deals, I think the art part of selling lies in these seven characteristics here. So I definitely think it's both, and I'm thinking now, “Okay, there you go, just agreeing with Will again.” It's having the emotional intelligence to know how to react differently to different people. It's paying close enough attention to understand where those hot buttons and buying motives are. It's reading between the lines sometimes, and you can't read between the lines if you're just following the manual that they gave you during onboarding. Right?
Jeff Bajorek:
So I mean, there's this nuance that has to come about. You can only really learn and develop by stopping and reviewing the tape after your call, listening to your sales calls, being in the moment regularly enough to pay attention where you made a misstep or where you said the wrong thing or whatever it was. All of that stuff comes about in some way, shape or form through these seven characteristics. But the science is: step one, we pick up the phone; step two, we send an email after we left a voicemail message that gives them another way to hear from us or another way to reply to us. The iteration is different from the approach, but you cannot succeed without some of both.
Will Barron:
I agree. I agree. This is the-
Jeff Bajorek:
No, argue with me, Will. We talked about this.
Will Barron:
This is literally what you said, Jeff, of the science versus the art of sales: why some people jump into a sales role and because of their upbringing, because of whatever it is, the high levels of self-esteem, they don't have an issue with rejection, right? They don't take it personally. It could be the job they did as a kid. It could be the subtle subconscious whisperings from their parents or family members.
Will Barron:
I know it as an adult now engaging with kids and I go, “What'd you do?” “Oh, well, I run a small business.” “What does that mean?” “Oh, well, I do this and I take people there and the gap is the value and that's what they pay me for.” “Oh.” And if someone talked to me like how I talk to… Because my friends have young kids and that now. If someone talked to me as a kid the way that I talk to other kids, I would have known what an entrepreneur was at five and I would have wanted to be one and probably still would have gone down the sales role.
Will Barron:
And young… I say young. I'm 35. I'm talking about the 20- to 25-year-olds that consume the content, and perhaps I go back and forth over emails with. A lot of them want to be entrepreneurs. A lot of them want to be the next Elon Musks. So the first thing is, you're not going to be Elon Musks by… Reserve yourself, check your ego [inaudible 00:22:42] door. No one emailing me for advice is going to be Elon Musk, because you're emailing the wrong person. You need to be in front of Elon Musk, as much of a hit on my ego as that is. But then I would recommend to them that sales is the process to go through.
How to Develop a Better Relationship with Failure and Rejection · [23:20]
Will Barron:
So with all that said, some of this is perhaps innate. Some of it is learned. Some of the science side of things is immeasurably based on iteration, and is constantly in flux. But with that said, to get practical, we can wrap up the episode turning a few of these thought processes into a practical application for the audience, Jeff. How do we practically form a better relationship with rejection and failure? How do we go about reprogramming our brains if we do get slightly… We don't tell anyone at work. We don't tell our sales manager. But maybe we do get slightly miffed when someone hangs up the phone, or we do get slightly bothered, and we take it personally when we've emailed someone and we've had a few calls and we've sent an invoice and then they say, “Oh, we're not interested any more.” How do we practically get over some of these things and change the relationship that we have with rejection, failure and even the permission to see things differently, which you said earlier on in the show?
Jeff Bajorek:
Yeah. I think it's stepping back and seeing the bigger picture. We can be really crass and say, “Well, you got to crack a couple of eggs if you want to make an omelette.” Okay. That's tired. That doesn't resonate so much any more. Don't just tell me I need to be tougher. But think back to when you started. Think back to what you were trying to accomplish. To your point, think back to your why. Why are you doing this? Why are you choosing to sell the product that you're selling, work for the company you work for, serve the people you serve? What is that gap that is illustrated, and how do you fit in, and what is your role to help these people move forward? If I don't have someone's attention, that's a me problem. That's not a them problem. Right? So sometimes it's taking responsibility for why those supposed rejections or failures continue to happen, but also recognising in the grand scheme of things, you're taking these little steps forward.
Jeff Bajorek:
And I think so much of what we see, particularly when we're early on in our careers, we don't understand the long-term ramifications. I go back; my son, who's going to be 11 here in a couple of weeks… It was four or five years ago. I mean, he fell off his bike for the first time, scraped up his knee, and he thought he was going to bleed out and die right there, because he'd never done that before. So he didn't realise that, okay, it's going to feel better soon. Stings right now; it's going to feel better. He thought he was going to bleed out. You know what I mean? And so without that perspective, he doesn't know any better.
Jeff Bajorek:
But as you grow, and if you're in your early to mid 20s, I'm going to tell you right now, everything you're doing right now is going to have impacts that you won't recognise until later. And I can tell you the older I get, the smarter my parents get, particularly the things that they told me when I was growing up that I didn't want to hear and then I find myself telling my kids for the same reasons, right? Perspective is that kind of thing that is very difficult to appreciate until you're in that position. So take my word for it. Take Will's word for it. If you can see the bigger picture and the bigger value to these steps you're taking right now, everything else gets so much less significant, and your ego doesn't take such a big hit and you learn to reframe those obstacles as opportunities. And that's what I want to encourage people to do.
Will Barron:
What you say reminds me of this idea of second and third and 22nd order consequences. And the best example I've got is you buy a TV and you're like, “Well, I'll just buy a telly. I can afford it this month.” Well, and you've now got a big, nice TV, so you go, “Well, maybe I'll buy an Xbox.” And then you go, “Well, I've got a TV and an Xbox, so I'll just play 20 minutes of games each evening. It doesn't matter. Right?”
Why You Need to Start Taking Accountability for Your Actions · [26:50]
Will Barron:
Well, that 20 minutes of games might take up some of your training time or even just your actual relaxation time, which allows you to recharge for the next morning, which doesn't mean that it's going to spiral into some game addiction, but it means over next 15 years… Because games are designed to be addictive, right? The whole element of 90% of computer games is to pull on the dopamine and serotonin cycles to get you to play and buy the next one and to enjoy it as well. There's an element of fulfilment that could come from media like that. But by making one purchase decision, you've then had second, third, fifth, 27th order consequences on the back of that first decision. And the younger you are as you listen to this, the bigger the impact of that over time, right?
Jeff Bajorek:
100 percent, and good luck keeping video games to 20 minutes. It's easier for me to just not play at all. But you're right. What are those little things? I mean, how many times have you heard it? Just read 10 pages in a book a day. Doesn't matter you're not getting through books as fast as your friends are. You're probably still reading more than most people do. Practising something… You get back to 10,000 hours of dedicated practise. You can get those in 10-minute increments if you want. But when you really think back to it…
“How many sales reps out there don't have one customer conversation a day? There are a lot of them. If you had one meeting with a customer or a qualified prospect every single day, your numbers would improve and you'll be in the top 5% or 10% of people who have booked calendars.” – Jeff Bajorek · [28:07]
Jeff Bajorek:
You know what? This is another great one. How many sales reps out there don't have one customer conversation a day? There are a lot of them. If you had one meeting with a customer or a qualified prospect every single day, your numbers would improve, or you're in the top 5% or 10% of people who have booked calendars. It's not as often as you think.
“No step is too small so long as it's headed in the right direction and you keep taking those steps.” – Jeff Bajorek · [28:36]
Jeff Bajorek:
There's a lot of getting ready to get ready in sales. And so when you think about what real execution looks like, I said it before, no step is too small so long as it's headed in the right direction and you keep taking steps. Take those steps and step back and appreciate what a step really looks like.
Jeff’s Purpose and Why It’s So Important to Him · [28:46]
Will Barron:
Jeff, I can share mine if you like as well, but what's your why or your purpose? You've multiple podcasts. A new one should be out now as we say this. Books, content, tonnes of followers on LinkedIn, everywhere else. What's your why? What's the purpose behind all of that?
Jeff Bajorek:
I live for that moment when the light-bulb turns on over someone's head and they realise they can do something that they didn't think they could do before, because they thought about it differently. And that's where Rethink The Way You Sell comes from, right? I remind people what needs to be done, I show them how to do it, and then I make them believe that they can. And that had to happen for me, and when it did, oh my goodness. Life-altering, family-altering, generational impacts on the way that I interact with people on the things my family's able to do. And it's not just financial stuff. It's the way that I look at things that makes my whole life more fulfilling. So for me to be able to help people think about things a little differently, think things through differently so they can see possibilities they've never seen before, it's the most rewarding thing. I mean, and it's similar to parenting in that. And that's my why.
Will Barron:
Dude. Yeah. You're making me feel uncomfortable. My why is super-selfish, and totally built on good principles, I think. And I think to achieve it long-term, you have to build a business that adds just tremendous value, and you can't cook corners. There's no opportunity to not do anything the right way.
Will Barron:
But I read Awaken the Giant Within, Tony Robbins' book, that I think he wrote in the '80s. I've literally got a box of them out there, big cardboard box, and anyone who… No, I will not say this on the podcast. I was just about to say, anyone who wants a copy, I usually send them one. Typically, when I'm chatting with people and they're not a good fit for the training programme or something, I'll send them a copy. So that is not an open invitation, because I'll end up spending the entire revenue of salesman.org sending people books. Right?
Will Barron:
But I read the book, and it helps you outline your values as a human. Now, two of my top ones, and perhaps they're interchangeable, were safety and adventure. Now these do not mix very well, right? You cannot go on many real adventures and masculine hiking, mountain-biking, rock-climbing, the kind of stuff that… I mean, the golden retriever [inaudible 00:31:30] kind of thing. A lot of these adventures are inherently unsafe, even just to a certain extent. And that's what makes them an adventure, right? Otherwise you might as well strap on a VR headset and just wander around some computer-game environments and see the same sights, but you're not getting that intrinsic adventure out it.
Will Barron:
So I've got this issue of adventure and safety. Adventure and safety. So maybe this is not my why or purpose. Maybe this is my mission, but my mission is to semi-retire at 40, and I'm well on the way of doing that, and that is: mortgage is paid off, investments all sorted. If I still own the business, there's people in there taking my place and it runs itself. All the business has been sold and the content machine has been sold.
Will’s Mission and Purpose in Life · [32:20]
Will Barron:
And so that's what I'm driving for 24/7. It's why I'm willing to put in the extra hours. As I said earlier on this bit of a rant, I know that to achieve that long-term, especially if you're [inaudible 00:32:27], you've got to have a sound business that adds drastic value to a scalable number of people. And so you can't cut corners. You can't be ripping people off. You can't be saying you're going to do one thing and not deliver. You've got to deliver and go above and beyond everything you say, right? So maybe I'm rephrasing this slightly wrong, but would you agree? Is that my mission or is that my purpose, especially in the medium term?
Jeff Bajorek:
I would say it's your mission. I don't know that that's your purpose. I think it's your mission, particularly because it's time-bound, and you know what? I don't even know if that's the criteria, but you said earlier you're 35 and you want to be out by 40, or at least able to be out by 40. That, to me, creates a sense of urgency. That makes it feel like a mission. Like I said, someone who understands these terms may argue with me and they might be right, but I don't see myself stopping.
Will Barron:
Sure.
Jeff Bajorek:
That's why I think of this as being more of my purpose. You know what I mean? I was joking with my mom a couple years ago. I'm like, “Yeah, I don't think I'm ever going to retire.” She's like, “Oh my God, are you okay?” I'm like, “Yeah, I love what I do. I don't think there's ever any reason to stop.” If someone's going to be willing to have really fun, meaningful conversations with me and then send me a check afterward, yeah, why would I ever stop? There will be a time, certainly, where I do less of that. But this is what lights me up. So I don't know, Will, but I think regardless, it's that thing that drives you, and you have something that drives you, keeps you focused, keeps you disciplined, makes you put up boundaries, makes you execute at a very high level. And that's the important thing. We can argue the semantics. Most people don't have that. So start there.
Finite and Infinite Games · [34:20]
Will Barron:
Yeah. We'll wrap up this and you can tell us about the new show. It's a fabulous idea, and I've not read the book, but I've heard people talking about it. I think it's called Finite and Infinite Games, something like that. And it's this idea of in your life, there are some finite games, which is for most people, and to be fair, I think it's most people listening to the show right now, sales people, sales leadership, and maybe small business owners who listen to the show as well, of there's a finite game there. In sales, you want to go in, you want to ramp up your time to success and make that as short as possible. You want to make as much money as morally and as ethically and as value-adding as possible, right? If you're killing it and you're winning, you're making a tonne of money in a modern B2B sales role. Right?
Will Barron:
But then there's infinite games. So for example, I play drums, and I'm okay, not great, but I've just got back into doing rudiments. So if you're familiar with guitar or piano, these are the scales of percussion instruments, right? And I've not been playing songs. I've just been doing rudiments every day for the past 14 days. And that's an infinite game, because I'll never be perfect at them, because you can always speed them up. You can always change tempo. You can always do syncopation between your hands and your feet or whatever it is. And so maybe my mission is my finite game. Maybe I need to have a think of what my infinite game is, the goal longer-term in my life. And maybe it's just adventure. Maybe that's the end goal. Adventure in safety. Rock-climb with a crash helmet on. I don't know what it is. So some juxtaposition of those two. But we'll wrap up with that, mate. Tell us, with that, the new show: where we can find it, what it's all about and anything else you want to drop on us and share with us, Jeff.
Parting thoughts · [36:00]
Jeff Bajorek:
Sure. The show's called Rethink The Way You Sell, and it's a departure for me from where I'd been previously in podcasts, just trying to put out a weekly show and have interviews and things. This is really content-focused. It is going to be released in seasons, so in chunks around a subject matter, versus just having subject-matter experts on talking, right? So it's less a social experiment and much more of the spearhead of my content. And so there will be webinars tied to these seasons, and there will be content and courses tied to these seasons, and really just bringing together what I've learned over the last going on 18 years now and putting it in a way where people can focus on this rather topical season at a time. And I'm having a bunch of fun with it. We've recorded some original material. I'm repurposing some older stuff that's still really pertinent. My producer, Doug Branson, and I are having just a ball with the formatting and everything though too. So check it out. You can find it anywhere you find podcasts. And yeah, I would really appreciate giving a shot.
Will Barron:
Great stuff. Well, we'll link to it in the show notes to this episode, and all the books and everything else that we talked about in this episode is shown over at the salesman.org. With that, Jeff, I want to thank you for your time, your expertise. I'll just say this, mate: I enjoy just chatting this stuff with you. Some guests come on and it's like, “Well, okay, well we've covered the topic. That's the end of the show.” But I'm conscious of time here, otherwise I feel like we could have done over half an hour just pontificating about sales, life, careers, and how all this cycles back into performance at the end of the day, mate. So I thank you for your time, your expertise, and for joining us again on the show.
Jeff Bajorek:
Thank you. No, it's always fun, and now there's another dimension that I didn't realise we could talk about, because I never met a flam-diddle that I didn't like. So we'll leave it at that.
A Dating Coaches Guide To Extreme Sales Confidence | Salesman Podcast
Mar 01, 2022
Tripp Kramer is an author, podcast host, and the owner of Tripp Advice, where he helps shy men from around the world excel in their love lives by showing them how to develop solid-steel confidence. In this episode of the Salesman Podcast, Trip shares how salespeople can beat rejection and implement a state of unshakable sales confidence.
You'll learn:
Sponsored by:
Free SalesCode assessment
Learn your strengths and weaknesses in an instant. Taken by over 10,000+ of your competitors. Don't get left behind.
Take the free assessment
Featured on this episode:
Host - Will Barron
Founder of Salesman.org
Guest - Tripp Kramer
Dating Coach
Hi, I'm Will, and welcome to the Salesman Podcast. On today's show, we're going to talk about how to build unshakable confidence. Today's guest is Tripp Kramer. Tripp is a dating strategist for shy men. He's the author of Magnetic, and he has over 970,000 subscribers on YouTube. He's killing it over there. And with that, Tripp, welcome to the show.
Tripp Kramer:
Well, thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here. It's always fun to be in a podcast that's not directly related to meeting women and attraction and those things. So it's fun to be here. Thanks for having me.
Will Barron:
Dude, this works the other way around. We have so many guests on the show that have nothing to do with sales because sales after six years, 750 episodes is boring as heck. There's only so many ways you can talk about picking up the phone, sending an email, and sales cadences and tools. So I appreciate you coming on the show, mate. Hopefully it'll be fun for you and it'll be, I'm sure, insightful for the audience.
Tripp Kramer:
Yeah, absolutely.
Confidence as Described By Tripp Kramer · [01:01]
Will Barron:
Just to jump straight into this, we're going to talk about confidence. I like to define things and then we'll make things practical for the audience later on. Do you have a definition of what confidence to you is and how do you define it? I've noticed in another episode of doing podcast, you mentioned the word calmness. How do you define confidence?
“The formula for confidence is competence plus the ability to step into the unknown.” – Tripp Kramer · [01:20]
Tripp Kramer:
So I have a formula for it, which is competence plus the ability to step into the unknown. That would be what confidence is. So competence plus the ability to step into the unknown. And so I can break that down even further. Competence just means that you are skilled in something, that you feel good at doing the skill or the action of whatever it is that you're trying to perform, right? That's competence. So you're going to have a feeling of confidence when you are competent in whatever it is. So even that could be with sales, that could be with meeting women, that could be with playing an instrument, whatever it may be. But I also like to add in there the ability to step into the unknown because people who are able to step out of their comfort zone into an unknown space and they do that action regularly, they are someone who has more confidence.
“The people who are able to step out of their comfort zone into an unknown space and they do that action regularly, that’s someone who has more confidence. So that means that if you're always doing things that scare you, that frighten you, that are out of your comfort zone, if you consistently do that, you're actually going to feel more comfortable when you are doing something for the first time.” – Tripp Kramr · [02:04]
Tripp Kramer:
So that means that if you're always doing things that scare you, that frighten you, that are out of your comfort zone, if you consistently do that, you're actually going to feel more comfortable when you are doing something for the first time. So when you continuously do new things, you already feel this kind of confidence inside of yourself of like, “Oh, I'm used to this feeling. I know what this is like to do things that scare me.” And so even though it might still scare you to try something new, if you've done this so many times, it's going to be a little bit easier. So I'll give an example of my own life.
Will Barron:
Sure.
Tripp Kramer:
Is that I have a lot of experiences with doing public speaking. I wouldn't consider this public speaking by the way. This is, I think it's very different, but public speaking meaning, you're speaking in front of a lot of people. But one thing I've never done before was officiate a wedding. So my friend, one of my best friends, he asked me to officiate his wedding. And this is a whole different type of public speaking, right? It's like you are in charge of one of the most important days of this person's life, two people's lives plus two families. So this isn't just like, “Oh, I'm going on stage and I'm talking about whatever it is that I talk about.” And also depending on what scares you, your friends are there, maybe your family's there. So there's a lot of eyes on you that I can build a lot of fear or tension. And while I was nervous to do it, it wasn't as scary as it would've been if I didn't have some experience with public's speaking. And I don't mean like the skillset in public speaking, more so, I've experienced the fear.
Tripp Kramer:
I know what it's like to get up there and speak in front of people. I know what those emotions are like. So I knew what was going to happen. As long as I practised enough, there's no getting rid of the fear that's inside of you, that adrenaline. But I know from previous experiences that once you get up there and you start talking, you're going to be super nervous for about 90 seconds and then it's all going to dissolve. And just knowing that was enough to give me confidence in that arena. So actually that was a little bit of competence because I've done it before, plus the ability to step into the unknown, this unknown space that I'd never done before. So that would be my formula that I teach guys. And I say guys because I'm a dating coach for guys. So that's where we usually talk about it.
How to Become Bolder and Increase Your Levels of Confidence · [04:50]
Will Barron:
Without getting too nerdy, but if we consider this an actual mathematical formula, can you increase your skill level to compensate for a lack of… I'm going to use the word boldness, the ability to jump into the unknown? And then inversely, if you don't have the skill set, perhaps you're new to sales or you're new to the industry that you're selling into, can you on a lack of skill increase the boldness that you have to achieve the same amount of confidence overall?
“How bad you want something does translate to confidence.” – Tripp Kramer · [05:32]
Tripp Kramer:
I think so. Yeah. I also, I don't put this part of the formula, but I do discuss this concept. Is how bad you want something does translate to confidence, to stepping into the unknown, getting out of your comfort for its own, whatever you want to call it. There's that desire, right? I just believe, if you don't have that big of a desire, your fear or your boldness, your lack of boldness will just keep you at home doing nothing. But if you have a really strong desire, like if you're on a sales call and you're like, “I need to make this sale.” Right? There's times when… and I know this, I've done sales calls. I've done hundreds and hundreds of sales calls, by the way. I know we didn't really discuss that. But if you feel like I need this sale, I need to make rent money, right? There's a strong desire in you.
Tripp Kramer:
It's like you got to make this happen. You got to just get in there and play your A-game. Michael Jordan, I got to just get something inside of myself that's going to go. I got to perform, and I got to do as best as I can. And I think that that can outweigh the fear that one might have, that desire. So for example, I work with guys who want to meet women and it's very scary to approach a woman, that's what we talk about. Mainly that's where the confidence formula comes from and all that. And it's very scary to do it, but it gets to a point where not every guy, depends if you're successful or not, but the success comes down to the guy saying I've had enough of this. I'm sick of being scared. Sitting here doing nothing, being scared to go approach that woman, or having so many regret of I had an opportunity but I didn't take it. And then finally, and I know I got to this point too. So I experienced this myself, is your desire outweighs the fear and then that allows you to take action.
Will Barron:
Does a-
Tripp Kramer:
I don't know if that answered your question, but hopefully it did a little bit.
How to Grow Your Confidence When You’ve Got No Skill or Experience · [07:43]
Will Barron:
It does. And I want to touch on fake until you make it in a second. I'll circle back to that, but I can't remember the quote and I'd butcher it anywhere. I'm terrible repeating quotes on this show. I always get emails from people saying I've got it wrong, but there's a Tony Robbins quote, similar to what you're saying on the lines of a decision is made in an instant, but the build up to that decision can take as long as it needs to take. And that's my experience with starting a business, getting into sales in the first place. Meeting women back when I was super shy as a younger fellow. I didn't have the ability to turn on a level of extrovertedness that I have now, which I've learned via selling and being rejected time and time again, right?
Will Barron:
So I appreciate you for saying that, but at what point in this scenario… and we can paint a picture of a… let's say to add real context to this, there's a young lad called Sam who's watching this. He's just got out of university, college. It's his first job, and he is suffering from perhaps a lack of confidence in both his skill and his boldness to jump in and make cold calls. Do cold emails, knock on doors, whatever it is because he is fearful of rejection. And we can talk about what rejection is perhaps and whether we should be fearful of someone saying no. Maybe we can talk about that in a second. But is the process that Sam, our example here, needs to just go through the pain, do it over and over, mole in the fact that he's not making any money and his colleagues are crushing it all around him to the point where there is that moment of snap, and he makes a decision to push through some of this and change things. Or is there a way to narrow that timeframe and speed all this up and become confident quicker?
Tripp Kramer:
I mean, that's where the competence comes in. So I'd say that's where the competence comes in. So if you're someone who's scared of rejection, I think, when it comes to cold calling, unfortunately, I think that you got to get a couple under your belt, and that's where you really just got to push yourself to do it. I think it's the mindset. Here it is. It's the mindset of knowing that you're not going to make the sale. You're just going in knowing that I'm not trying to make the sale, I'm just trying to get good at this process. And that mindset forces you to become outcome independent so you are not just focused on, “Well, I got to make this sale or I got to perform really well.” And this is identical to what I teach guys with meeting women. It's the same thing.
Tripp Kramer:
They get really scared because they don't want to get rejected, and they're trying to get the number. And there's something really valuable there that they want is they want that number or they want that approval from the woman, whatever it may be. And I say, “Go into that and don't focus on what's going to happen in terms of the outcome that you desire. In fact, let's move that outcome a little bit closer.” So instead of going, okay, I need to get the number. I need to get laid. I need to get a girlfriend. How about let's just go into, I need to have some conversations with some women. So with guys who are into sales and trying to get good at sales, why not just, I'm just going to go and see what happens. And you become more of an observer, and you stay a little bit more present and not so outcome dependent.
Tripp Kramer:
So then in theory, this should help the fear go down a little bit. And that's what I've done with everything in my life too, is like anything I wanted to do because I learned this is, well, I'm just going to go and I'm just going to try. It's not really about failure. And it's funny how our mind is so powerful. We can just create all these labels that we create for ourselves, and then it causes the emotional distress. The fear, the lack of confidence for someone who's just graduating, who's saying I'm going to do this for the first time. You're not meant to be good at it. In fact, if you do get a sale, beginner's luck, 100%. It's like that's just what you have to do, you have to jump in and you have to try it, and you have to see what happens. So more curiosity than it is, a strong desire to get that outcome that you're looking for, which is probably the sale in this case.
Building Confidence is All About Boldness But Being Desperate Enough to Put in The Work · [11:57]
Will Barron:
It seems to be… Tell me if you agree with this as well. There's two weird paradoxes here that everyone will know. The first one I always call it a commission breath. So when you're desperate for the sale, you're perhaps talking to people that you shouldn't be talking with, and they can smell that desperation on you via the phone and things don't go quite as well as when you're just trying weird tactics to close them and drag them back in. So if you've got commission breath and you're desperate, you're less likely to close a deal than if you're calm, you're confident. Your pipeline is full. You know that it's just a numbers game. At a certain point, you know that you're going to have four conversations and you're going to close one of them and everything's going to be great. So there's a paradox there of being desperate leads to less sales. Being calm and cool and collected leads to more sales.
Will Barron:
But then there's an additional paradox here, which you mentioned earlier on, which I call gun to head selling. So back in my office, in the room next door, I've got a picture, big blown picture on the wall of a… We don't have guns in the UK, obviously. So I have no idea what gun it is, but as if the gun is the barrel's pointing down at me. And if I've ever been soft, if I'm ever going, “Well, I'll do that tomorrow, or that deal make me feel uncomfortable, or this should probably have another zero on the side of it.” The hero of this story if I was in a film would stick a zero on and see what happens to the conversation. I look at that picture and I call it gun to head selling, and I go, “Sod it, let's give it a go,” and it forces me to be bold. It's a prompt to be bold.
Will Barron:
So it seems, and paradoxically, you've got to push things out there and test things. And you've got to put yourself under pressure of failure to have higher levels of success. So there's this weird paradox of you can't be desperate, but you've also got to pretend there's a gun to your head and there's an element of desperation to push you forward. Is that fair to say?
Tripp Kramer:
I would say so. And I want to throw in something interesting too. There's also times when you can feel over confident. So you are so confident that you go into maybe a sales call or maybe even with a woman, and you feel that it will just happen for you like that. The confidence is so strong that you're like, “I'll make this sale.” No problem. And then you know what you do, you throw away all the principles and then you don't make the sale, and you get humbled. And you go, “Oh, wait a second.” And this happens to me a lot too, by the way, with sales, when I'm signing people up for my programme. I'll be like, oh, thinking they know that this programme is the best, because I'm so confident in what I teach and what I sell, and the results that guys get.
Tripp Kramer:
But I can't throw away the principles because the person on the other end of the phone, they don't know that. And so I can't just go in too calm. You still got to be on the ball or else, again, you're not going to get that sale. Even for women, you go in too confident, but you're too calm about it, or you just like go, “Oh, this woman's just going to like me because…” Just because you feel that way, well, they don't know that. So you can't throw away the principles of building attraction, just like I don't think you can throw away the principles of what it means to make a sale. So I just wanted to throw that in there as well. I feel like that's another thing that I've come across, you got to make sure that you're still sticking to the guiding principles of what makes the sale.
Comparing Confidence, Shyness, and Arrogance Using a Simple Bar Chart · [15:25]
Will Barron:
Would you say then perhaps confidence is… if we have a bar chart, this would be better if I could draw it out, but I'll do it with my hands in the air. And this is super unhelpful for the tens of thousands of people who are going to listen to this episode, but play along if we can. We have a line. In the middle, we have confidence. Perhaps one side we have shyness and then the other side, I would call it arrogance. And we're trying to be bouncing somewhere in the middle. Is that a way that we could perhaps visualise this?
Tripp Kramer:
I think so. Yeah.
Will Barron:
You don't sound convinced on that.
Tripp Kramer:
I mean, I have another thought.
Will Barron:
Sure.
Tripp Kramer:
Okay. So I would say here's shyness and here's confidence, if we're looking at the spectrum. So on this end is full confidence, this end is full shyness. And arrogance, because you said that was on your spectrum, all the way to the other end. Is that correct? Arrogance.
Will Barron:
Yep.
Tripp Kramer:
Yeah. So I would almost say arrogance is kind of off this chart. It's like something different. It's actually insecurity. I think that people, and that's why I take it off the chart, because it doesn't really mean shyness either. It's just arrogance is someone who is equally, almost could be equally as insecure as the person who's shy, right? The person who's shy is insecure. We know that. But arrogance is also, again, not on the chart because they're not shy, but it's kind of similar to that. So that's why I would take it off of that chart. If someone who's arrogant, that's someone who needs to tell people or show people what they have, whatever that means.
“An arrogant person is someone who needs to tell or show people what they have. This could be a skillset, it could be an item, an object, whatever. And they need to show that or need to say it because they actually don't feel good about themselves. So they want that validation. But if someone knows they're good at something and they're secure with themselves, they don't feel the need to tell everyone.” – Tripp Kramer · [16:51]
Tripp Kramer:
Could be a skillset, it could be an item, an object, whatever. And they need to show that or need to say it because they actually don't feel good about themselves. So they want that validation. So I would say the spectrum is full confidences on this end, and you're actually super secure. So the person who's super confident and super secure, they're not trying to show off. They don't need to show off that, because they know they have it. If someone knows they're good at something and they're secure at themselves, they don't feel the need to tell everyone, right? I mean, that's my thought.
How to Measure Your Levels of Confidence · [18:06]
Will Barron:
That makes sense. I guess where I was going with it is maybe arrogance. I can change that word, but almost like an irrational confidence. So a confidence when you don't have competence and perhaps you're not jumping into the unknown. You're just arrogant in that you are assuming confidence as opposed to having other people kind of validate the skill set, the boldness, and anything else that ties in. So with that then, Tripp, I think this is useful to define things, right? Because then we know what we're aiming towards. Before we get practical, is there a way to measure confidence knowing from the audience that want to improve this? Obviously, if you can set a number on it, or there's an objective way to measure it, we can see progress, and obviously, that's self-fulfilling from a motivational standpoint and another standpoint as well. Is there a way to measure your confidence so we can see where we're at and hopefully where we want to go?
“Confidence is the point where you're taking action and not caring to fail.” – Tripp Kramer · [18:49]
Tripp Kramer:
I think that when you know you're confident or at least the start of confidence, it's like your… I don't want to say inability. It's the point where you're taking action and not caring to fail. I would almost say that is a good measure. It's not really quantifiable. Could be, I guess if you measure how many times this happens in your life, but it's saying I'm going to step into the unknown or do something that's hard, or do something I'm scared of. So any of those three, and you just do it anyways. I think that there's a level of confidence in that, and that's what would be the beginning of confidence. And then I think it becomes excitement. So for me, talking about sales, I don't remember ever being nervous. I probably was. It was so long ago.
“When you start doing something new, at first you're scared, so you don't have the confidence. And I think you're always going to be a little nervous, but once the excitement exceeds the nervousness, that to me is a sign of confidence, because if you start to get good at something, you're probably more excited to go and do it.” – Tripp Kramer · [19:43]
Tripp Kramer:
I think I was always more excited because I just learned how to sell and that was fun. But even let's just say with women, right? At first you're scared, so you don't have the confidence. And I think you're always going to be a little nervous, but once the excitement exceeds the nervousness, that to me is a sign of confidence, because if you start to get good at something, you're probably more excited to go and do it, I would imagine, right?
Will Barron:
Well, it creates then a feedback loop, right? I think it might be Angela Duckworth's book, Grit. I'm sure she talked about it on the podcast with me, this idea… Oh, no. Whoever it was. I'll link it in the show notes, the previous episode that we touched on this. But it's this idea that talent is just how lucky you are at the beginning and then how many other people register that look, tell you how good you are and then at the age it happens. And then all of a sudden, you're talented because you've had this positive feedback loop that, hey, you threw a lucky three pointer when you were 14. The coach said, “Well, done well.” And that fed back into you practising more because of social pressure and other things as well. It's probably maybe similar with dating and women and that kind of world, but also in sales. I remember the first day in my first proper medical device sales role, my boss was like, “This is a list of surgeons that we currently work with. They love the company, they love the product, give them all a call, book yourself in and just go and have a chat with them.”
Will Barron:
So I was like, “Okay, that makes sense. That's not particularly scary.” But then the bastard just sat behind me. So we're in a conference room and he sat at the desk behind me. I could feel him just staring at the back of my head. So obviously, you get there like, “Well, okay, he's now listening to everything that I'm saying.” And my confidence from this task, which is a simple enough task to do, an appropriate task to do for a medical device salesperson, my confidence just shot into the ground because I had someone critiquing me. But now the first call went well, second call went well, my confidence went… His name was Steve, Steve buggered off then and went and do some actual work as opposed to just pestering me.
The Role of Luck and Positive Feedback When Trying to Build Competence and Skill · [22:01]
Will Barron:
But if my first call would've sucked, my confidence would've went down and then he probably would've tried to give me some advice and coaching. Depending of how my ego was back then, that I might not have took that on board. And then you can quickly spiral out of control and go into the other pathway. So a lot of this, when you're first starting off, when you're trying to develop competence and skill, a lot of it, tell me if you feel the same, Tripp, especially from the dating, it's just luck.
Tripp Kramer:
Well, if you get to that point, yes, sometimes I think. Sure. Yeah. Sometimes it's luck. I mean, if you like have a quick win, I believe that can be luck. And what's interesting is something you're saying is I deal with a lot of guys though that don't have a positive feedback loop. So I think the real question is, how do you get good at something with the lack of positive feedback? Is there a way to get good at something without a loop of positive feedback because I'll have guys go out and get rejected so many times. So they're not getting any positive feedback from those interactions. It's like you have to artificially create a positive feedback. It's like you have to tell yourself to keep going. And then I say that has to do with resilience. And so I feel like resilience is the key.
Tripp Kramer:
Now, I guess hopefully, someone's teaching you resilience unless you kind of figure it out on your own. Maybe you're listening to a podcast like this or you have a coach of some sort, but that's really the biggest thing, and that's the hardest thing. And then when it comes down to luck, hopefully you get it. I know I definitely had some luck when I was doing sales for the first time, when I was first signing people up to my men's coaching programme. And I did have some big sales of guys that, I mean, I don't even know now that I think about it. I don't even know if it was luck. I was really putting in the right effort. I was doing the things I needed to do. I guess it was kind of lucky that it was someone who was very wealthy and then they could sign up for my programme.
Will Barron:
I think you're underestimating yourself there. So we did a show a couple weeks ago on the science of luck and serendipity, right?
Tripp Kramer:
Oh, interesting.
The Science of Luck and Serendipity · [24:04]
Will Barron:
The science is super clear that you engineer your own luck. And if you are an optimist, your brain will look for patterns of success, and so you'll prospect people who are more… It's unlikely that it just happened chance, that you got on the phone and in touch with people who happened to be wealthy. Even if you weren't consciously doing it, you knew that they were a better prospect, and so you probably engineered those calls. If a 14-year-old called you up or got on your diary and you had a sales call with them, you're more likely to… I don't know if this would be true for your business, but you're more likely to… I would be more likely to cancel that call, free up the space, and then it's some rich dude who's got a Lamborghini in his profile picture or whatever, it shows some kind of affluence, I'm more likely to take that call. So it's not luck that that person showed up, it's serendipitous in that you've engineered that environment to have success from.
Tripp Kramer:
Yeah. So optimism, it sounds like. That's one factor. Also this kind of sounds a little bit like law of attraction, which I don't really believe in that, in the kind of woo-woo sense. But this is what I believe the law of attraction really is, is you are looking towards and thinking about the goal, right? It's like you know that an affluent person is probably better to get on the phone with because they're going to have the resources to purchase your thing versus someone who's 14. So it's really understanding your goal and how to get there, and being so zeroed in and focused on what that is. So then you're generating those opportunities for yourself. And I guess that's the luck formula, isn't it? It's preparation plus… I forgot.
Are Confident People Rejection Proof? · [26:00]
Will Barron:
It's just the number of swings that you have at the bat that you are happy to be positive about. And this leads us into this idea of rejection, right? Are confident people, Tripp, rejection proof, or do confident people still feel the pain of that girl ghosting them or that customer slamming down the phone and calling them an asshole because they cold-called them before they got to work or whatever it is? Do confident people still feel that pain or do confident people… it's just water off a dog's back, it's not personal, it's not anything, they're just rock and rolling afterwards?
Tripp Kramer:
I think that most people do feel it, it's just the scale in which they feel it. So I think that someone who's just starting a business, who's getting rejected and they're just broke and there's no money coming in, no sales being made. Everyone that rejects you is going to be a harder punch to the gut. But I think that as someone who has had a lot of success is that, yeah, I think there's still going to be a twinge of, “Oh, that's stung.” But I think it gets down to the point where it's so small that you feel it because you're human and you'll feel it, but how long will it really stick with you?
Tripp Kramer:
I'd say probably not too long. Once you've had the competence and you've gotten the reps in, and you've gotten all the rejections that you've had in your life because you're going to get rejected always more times than not. So it becomes a little bit more numbing. I think it's all from experience, and I hope that's motivation for that Sam character. Is like, you got to get the reps in. So time to start now. Stop worrying about whether you're going to get that sale or what's going to happen with it. You got a long road, let's go. It's time to start.
Will Barron:
How much of this-?
Tripp Kramer:
Don't let it beat you down.
Mindset Versus Discipline in a Salesperson’s Journey to True Confidence · [27:50]
Will Barron:
How much of this, Tripp, when we talk about resilience, you've used that word a bunch, I totally agree with this, how much of this comes down to mindset versus discipline? And just for another layer of context, the first training in our training programme over salesman.org, it's called selling by the of numbers. We get your ultimate goal for the next 5 to 10 years. We break it down as to how much revenue you need to bring in each year, each quarter, each month. How many calls, emails, what cadence you need to achieve that amount of revenue versus your target. And then we give you a daily target of… And it blows people's minds when we do this. Because typically, it's like you've got to make 10 calls and send 4 emails a day. You just got to do it reliably over years to make it happen.
Will Barron:
It's not complicated. You see people's stress levels and the pressure and the emotions kind of drop when we get to that final number when we go through in the coaching and the one-on-ones that we do. So that's the discipline side of things. How much of resilience come down to doing a process like that, and then sticking to it and having discipline versus the mindset of being an optimist? The mindset of being rejected and not taking it personally. Obviously, the answer is both but where's the place to start if we're trying to become more confident? Do we need to focus first on the discipline or work on our mindset?
Tripp Kramer:
I'd say mindset. I'd say mindset because you'll get killed faster. If you don't have the mindset and you're going into with the techniques, the tactics, the discipline, and doing what you need to do, it is possible that you will end up crashing and burning. But like you said, it is both, because like my formula says, confidence equals competence. So you kind of have to act to build that confidence, but I do feel that if you don't have some sort of mindset going into it, you have a risk of crashing and burning. But there will be very minimal risk of crashing and burning if you go into it saying, “All right, man. This is a process. I know this is a process. I'm going to get really excited when I finally do get a sale, but I don't want to have the expectations too soon because I'm just starting this process.”
Tripp Kramer:
Say that to yourself, that helps with your resilience, and then you can go into your discipline as you call it, and doing and taking the actions. So then when you start to feel that overwhelm of it potentially not working out, because you're going to have low numbers when you start anything, you can come back to that mindset and that gets you back on the bike even faster, right? Fall off the bike. You want to go on and hop on the next day and try, or do you want to do within five seconds and try? So I hope that with the mind you get on faster, so you can get better faster and therefore build more confidence through the competence act. Time is of the essence, especially when you're trying to build confidence.
The Quickest Way to Cultivate the Right Mindset for Building Confidence · [31:20]
Will Barron:
Do you have any thoughts from a practical standpoint of how to instil the… Because what we're saying here is not rocket science, right? Other people have covered similar ground on other podcasts. But I find that whether it's a book or speaking to someone like yourself, Tripp, with a wealth of knowledge in this area, or listening to a podcast or a mentor, sometimes something just clicks and then it goes in your brain and then you go, “Okay, that's common sense. I've just not been doing this for the past 25 years for some reason. I've no idea why.” So with that said, do you have any practical ways, even with your clients maybe, to drill some of this mindset stuff home? You mentioned the law of attraction, I think it's bullshit. I think you're alluding to as well. I don't think it's bullshit, I know it's bullshit.
Will Barron:
We've had someone from the film on the show to talk about how bullshit it is. But with that said, are we doing affirmations? Are we sticking Post-it notes to remind ourself consciously of what we are setting out to achieve on our laptops, our work laptops? Are we having a coach getting on a call every week and just beret us and bully us into doing it until it becomes from a good place before it becomes natural? What's the best and quickest way to implement the mindset side of things so that seemingly everything else can fall in place?
Tripp Kramer:
Well, all those work on some level, right? I mean, I think the best thing you could ever have as a coach, because you have someone else on your corner who's helping you do the work, and they're dedicated to helping you do the work. So obviously, that's going to be the best that you could do. But even with a coach, like I coach guys, I'm still going to tell them something that they need to do to coach themselves. Because when they're in that moment, when they need to go and talk to a girl, I'm not going to necessarily be there. And maybe I could, right? And then I don't know, that I'm with them forever, but there's going to be a moment, no matter what in their life where they're not going to have someone in that exact moment. So what do they do? Well, I think the best is, I guess, we can call it like an affirmation or just a reminder.
Tripp Kramer:
And I don't necessarily think that you should be even putting it in your phone or anything. It should be something you memorise, and just to remember. And I literally say this to my clients when they're going over and approaching a girl, is they have to tell themselves that they're doing this to get better, to practise to do the approach to talk to her, or whatever they're trying to get better at. They're not trying to get her number. They're not trying to take her home because there's other things that need to be done to get to that point. So you need to focus on what do I need to do today to get myself to go over and approach her and talk to her, because if that's not going to happen, then nothing's going to happen. So you have to remind yourself in that moment, and maybe that's something with someone to do with sales.
Tripp Kramer:
I like to say also it's kind of specific to what it is that you're trying to learn. And this is a way of what's called deliberate practise. So in the very, very, very beginning, if you're a beginner salesperson or you're just starting to approach women, then the object is to just pick up the phone and have a few things that you know you can say. Or for the guy it's just to go up to the girl and have like a couple things to say and that's it. And then see what happens and see where you can take it. And then you can come back to the experience and you can reference the experience to then see what needs to be done better. So the big overall idea is, remember, you're trying to get better at this skill, which hopefully makes you more rejection proof or makes you feel more rejection proof.
Tripp Kramer:
And then whatever it is that you're trying to build. So maybe like for example, in sales, okay, now you're like all right, I'm comfortable making the calls, but I'm not really so good at building rapport. It's good to build rapport in a couple minutes in when you're first talking to someone. Again, I'm not a master at sales, but then I know that's one thing that I've learned. And then it's like, all right, let's get really good at rapport. Let's just take this call and let's get so good at rapport, and let's see what happens there. And then maybe you start getting good at that and then you go to the next technique, and the next technique or whatever it may be. But it's about kind of being aware of where's my sticking point and then zoning in on that sticking point and nothing else. So that helps you build confidence in that area because it's pushing you and motivating you to do the action to then build the competence
Will Barron:
You have just made this super practical for the audience, I feel. All we've got to do if we are unconfident, if that is a word, inconfident, unconfident, if we-
Tripp Kramer:
So I've researched this a lot, unconfident is a word. Unconfident.
Practical Step-by-Step Guide to Ultimate Confidence · [35:37]
Will Barron:
Unconfident. If you are unconfident with cold calls, you should break your cold call up into segments. Just getting through that first bit of the barrier, the fence that the prospect is in inadvertently, but obviously going to put up because they're busy and you've interrupted them. Okay, you've done it. Just do that 100 times, 50 times. Then you've got to share the value. Then you've got to break the thought process that they're in so they give you an actual answer rather than an instinctual answer. Then you've got to close the next. And if you just break things up, you could do this on a tally chart, and just don't do this with your best prospects perhaps. Do this with a list of customers on a Friday afternoon that you're just going to burn through that perhaps you're never going to be able to sell to anyway. You don't want to do this with all your best prospects and leave a bad taste in their mouth, but just burn through 100 calls of, “Hey, I got the hook. I got the hook. I failed, I failed, got the hook.”
Will Barron:
Use a tally chart, go for 50, break it up into different steps. That over the course of a few Fridays where you are being lazy and you probably weren't going to do much anyway because you just chill out on a Friday at work which you shouldn't do, but people do. And it is what it is. A month of that, four afternoons of that, you're going to come out with different person and go back to the very top of the show. Your competence is going to be way higher and you're not really jumping into the unknown anymore. You don't need the boldness because you've seen every excuse, every objection that's going to come your way. And then you can perhaps transition this to your prospects that are more likely to close, more likely to buy, and have better success and results from it. Is that a practical step-by-step guide to-?
Tripp Kramer:
I would think so. Or even for sales people, once they get really good what's the last step? I would say objections, right? Sure. I feel that's the hardest thing to get through, and in all the steps. So objections, why not just practise that with your friends or just in your room by yourself. Just pretend that someone gave you that objection and practise what are you going to say to that objection, whatever the objection is, right? The money objections, the time objections, I got to talk to my wife objections. I know all those common ones, and just be so good and be a sniper and like, “Okay, I know all the objections and I know what to say when they give me the objections.” And then those like sub objections, because there's always like the main objection and then they say something else, it's another objection.
Tripp Kramer:
And what do you say to that? Because you're going to be responding to that. And so I feel you can even practise that on your own. Of course, it's a little bit harder because you don't have someone who has their own personality and own experience to kind of throw you off and things like that, but still you can practise that. I even had guys, if we were to correlate this to meeting women, I have guys you can practise conversation in a room all alone. And I teach guys a method to do that, which is you go to Google, you type in random word generator. There's a bunch of websites where if you press a button, it just generates a random word from the dictionary. And so what you do is, every time a word pops up, you practise with that word.
Tripp Kramer:
So let's say it's garage, you practise saying a statement based on the word and a question based on the word. So for example, for garage, it might be, “Oh man, I haven't had a garage in a long time. I parked my car in the street. ” Or a question would be, “What's the biggest garage you've I've ever been to?” Again, not that interesting, but you're coming up with a statement and a question. So what is that doing? That's actually helping you with continuing conversation because conversation is a lot of it, not all of it, but most of it is listening to what someone's saying and going on a tangent off of what saying, based on what they're saying. So that means that if you can do that little exercise at home and practise that, you are going to get good at being really quick on your feet to then be able to continue a conversation based off of what someone is saying.
Tripp Kramer:
Instead of maybe just asking a lot of questions. Again, this isn't related to sales. The point when I'm saying here, well, actually it could be in the rapport section. So I take that back. Building rapport, and they say something and then you continue a conversation based on what they're saying. So that's something you can do at home. So another thing, what I'm saying here is where are the areas of this skillset that you might be able to practise without even having to go on the call or the approach? And of course, it's going to be like level medium or level easy when you're doing it on your own, and it's always going to be level hard when you're with that person, because you don't know what they're going to say next, but you can train for that and it can become easier. So there's a way to get confident without even doing the actual literal skill.
Will Barron:
So two things, I don't want to plug it too much because the audience will know all about it. Our training programme has a software tool called The Sales Coach that will throw objections at you and get you to handle it. And also in the training product, I do role plays. I'll jump on a call with members of students within the programme, we put the videos in where appropriate. We don't want to make anyone look too stupid if they're struggling. We want to help them, right? But we put the videos in the community. The community feed back, I feed back at the end of the session as well. And there's other coaches and there's other sales trainers who could do similar things with you. But yeah, you're right.
Tripp Kramer:
Cool. That sounds super valuable.
Will Barron:
It is. I don't want to plug it too much as the audience will-
Tripp Kramer:
No. See, can I just say something here?
Will Barron:
Sure.
Tripp Kramer:
Fuck that. Can I swear? Fuck that. Plug it. It helps. You have something that helps. I'm trying to… I think that's a mindset too. And by the way, I'm guilty if it's still because I said the same thing as you. Not to plug, it's like why wouldn't you plug? If I was a person who was listening to this and I needed help and someone said, “Wait, there's a programme where I can go on and they throw objections at me and that's going to help me get better. Thank God they said that. I need to get that. I need to get to the next level.” So anyway, going off on a tangent, so I feel that we need to plug the things that are valuable, and that's what sales is, right?
Tripp Kramer:
It's saying like I have something… So I'm on the phone, I have something so valuable. The pen, right? That's fine. That's like in Wolf of Wall Street. I have something so [inaudible 00:42:13] pink, fem little pen here, and I know that the person on the phone, if they're a good lead, they would just crush it if they had the pen. So it's like my job as a salesperson to do anything I can because they don't know, they're on the other end. You know they don't know, it's your job to let them know in any way possible that the pen or the phone, or whatever it is that they need, that they're struggling with, that they need to get this thing. I don't know, that's how I feel sales. And there's a lot of different ways to do that, but they have to know and it's your job to know. And if it's not a fit, it's not a fit, right?
Tripp Kramer:
It's like, well, they were never someone who is going to be a good lead. I get on the phone sometimes with guys who are interested in coaching and if I know that like it's not really a good fit, I'll just let them know and we just get off the phone and so be it. Or if it's like, “Oh, my gosh, this person has the problem that I can solve for them.” And I know 100% that if they sign up for this programme, they are going to solve the problem and be so happy that they did it. The problem is they don't know that yet. So I need to do everything in my power to get them to know how powerful it is. Of course, going back to the plug, this is not a sales call, this is just kind of plugging things so people understand that they have opportunities. I don't know, I feel it's the same idea. I try to do it on my podcast, I'm like sign up for coaching. I'm like, “You have to, it's so good. Because I know it works and I know that you need it.”
Will Barron:
I'll be totally blunt and honest with you, and the audience will enjoy this as well, Tripp. And we can wrap up with this point, mate. I don't plug it so much on the podcast natively as perhaps I could do because we cannot… and this is a good problem to have. We just can't fit as many bookings in our diary for myself and the other sales reps in the team. So every time I plug it, the diary gets booked up for the next week, and then I get loads of emails complaining. So I want people sign up for a call to see if they're a good fit when it makes sense to them as opposed to me not being confident and strong in the pitches that come on the show. But for other people, that makes total sense, what you just shared. And you should be proud and excited, and what's the point in…
Parting Thoughts · [45:12]
Will Barron:
Your job as a salesperson, it's not to add value to the customer. It's not to be their best friend. It is the bottom and the basic of everything, is to drive revenue. And so it's your duty, corporate duty to the shareholders if it's a large organisation that you work for, to the founders if it's a smaller organisation. If you're a small business owner, to your freaking self if you want that nice car and that big house and that swimming pool to make these deals happen, and obviously, that comes from being confident and confidently pitching and sharing. So I appreciate that, mate. We'll do some kind of code in the show to this episode and we'll give you a commission for plugging the show on our behalf. I appreciate that. With that, Tripp, tell us where we can find out more about you. Tell us where we can find the YouTube channel and the podcast and everything else that you put out as well, mate?
Tripp Kramer:
Yeah, for sure. Well, if you're listening to this on the podcast, I think your next step would be if you like what I'm saying here or if you're a guy who's shy or you are a person who wants to learn about being better at communicating, and more importantly, in that sense, meeting women and attracting women, you're going to want to go to my podcast called How To Talk To Girls. It's called How To Talk To Girls. That's on all the podcast platforms, so you'll find it. And then if you're on YouTube or listening to this, I don't know, somehow in any other way, all my other social media is Tripp Advice, which is the name of the company. So you can find me on YouTube. I have over 1,000 videos giving free advice on how to meet and attract women.
Tripp Kramer:
And some guys, if they're like, “Well, actually, I'd like to just really take the next step,” I suggest you get my book, which I guess I'll plug here. Why not? So the book, people love books. I wrote one, it's called Magnetic. And funny enough, in the title: Cultivate Confidence, Become Rejection-Proof and Naturally Attract the Women You Desire on Amazon. Check it out if you want to take that next step, if you want to really learn the full system that I teach, and it's only like 10 bucks on Amazon. Check it out and you'll learn a lot. Otherwise, come check me out on the podcast or the YouTube channel.
Will Barron:
Amazing stuff. We'll list the book, the podcast, everything else that you're up to Tripp on the show notes to this episode over at salesman.org. Tripp, I want to thank you. Again, I appreciate… I always say this for guests like yourself. I appreciate you've took a bit of a tangent to come on a sales podcast, but I think everything that we chatted about is totally relevant. So I appreciate you taking that bit of a leap into the unknown to come on the show and I appreciate you and your time and for joining us the Salesman Podcast.
Tripp Kramer:
Cool. Thanks for having me. Glad I did it. Glad to be here.
Digital Sales Rooms: The Future Of B2B Sales? | Salesman Podcast
Feb 15, 2022
George Donovan is the Chief Revenue Officer of Allego, where he’s responsible for achieving the company’s customer acquisition and sales goals. In this episode of the Salesman Podcast, George explains what “digital sales rooms” are and how B2B salespeople can use them to influence their buyers' journeys.
You'll learn:
Sponsored by:
Free SalesCode assessment
Learn your strengths and weaknesses in an instant. Taken by over 10,000+ of your competitors. Don't get left behind.
Take the free assessment
Featured on this episode:
Host - Will Barron
Founder of Salesman.org
Guest - George Donovan
Chief Revenue Officer of Allego
Hi, my name is Will, and welcome to the Salesman Podcast. On today's episode, we're answering the question, what is a digital sales room and how can we use them to win more sales? Today's guest is George Donovan. He is a Chief Revenue Officer over Allego.com. He has 20 years of experience in sales, marketing, and operations. And with that, George, welcome to the show.
George Donovan:
Thank you, Will. Thrilled to be here.
What is a Digital Sales Room? · [00:30]
Will Barron:
I'm excited to have you on mate. So, I'm somewhat familiar with this, but I want to pitch this conversation, especially at the beginning of things, to a place and perhaps position ourselves as the audience who are unfamiliar with this idea of a digital sales room, perhaps it's a knuckle dragging caveman-esque sales person who's only just been pulled away from spamming people on cold calls and is just coming into this idea of content can be really helpful for sales people. So with that, can you give us a brief overview of what a digital sales room is? Then we can dive into the ins and outs of it and perhaps sell the audience on the fact that maybe this is the future of sales.
George Donovan:
Right, sure. I think of it as a great way, a technology and a process, that helps close the gap between, and we've heard a lot about this, the buyer's journey versus the seller's process. And how do you map these together and have the prospect feel good about the buying experience and not feel like they're being dragged along by that caveman salesperson, as you say. And I think digital sales rooms are a great way to do that. And what they are is they're a virtual space, it's technology, it's a virtual space that allows customers and salespeople to interact. So, customers can access all the content that they need to provide comfort for them through their buying journey.
George Donovan:
It's one place that they can go to for all the exchanges that have happened between the salesperson and the prospect. It could be history of emails, it could be video recordings if you had a recording with the prospect, it could be proposals, spreadsheets, you name it. Anything could be in this digital sales room that customers need along their buying journey. And the nice thing for the customer is they can share it with other people. They can bring other folks on their buying committee into the room, into the digital sales room, to access this content. And then the benefit for the salesperson is they can see the engagement. So they know who's in the sales room, what they're doing, what content is hot and what content is not.
Understanding Digital Sales Rooms From Both the Buyer’s and Seller’s Perspective · [02:30]
Will Barron:
What does it look like for someone who's unfamiliar? And perhaps we can throw in some screenshots and a link to product demos and stuff in the [inaudible 00:02:43] to this episode over at salesman.org as well. But what does it look like on a screen? Is this a live Zoom kind of chat room? Or is this a series of content that outlines the buyer's journey? What does this look like, I guess, from the seller's perspective and what does it look from the buyer's perspective as well?
George Donovan:
Yeah, good question. It looks the same, Will. It looks the same from the buyer and the seller's perspective. And it's probably not that much different from a B2C buying journey that you've had, where certain B2C companies start to know your preferences. They know what you like, what you might be interested in. So, it's literally a room, a virtual digital room that you go into and there is nice, structured, organised content, and it can be completely customised by the salesperson based on the customer's needs, wants, past behaviour, predicted future behaviour. So it's very, very customizable by the sales person to give the customer what they want.
Can the Digital Sales Rooms Lead to Laziness From the Part of the Salesperson? · [03:46]
Will Barron:
And I'm playing devils advocate here slightly, because we're both on the same wave length of all this, and it's going to be a boring conversation otherwise, but is this an opportunity for sales people to be super lazy and just go, “Here you go, customer,” or potential customer, “here's a bunch of stuff that you probably need, go through it yourself. I'll spy on you from my side. If you get stuck, I'll cold call you and jump into this.” Or is this something that has real value for the buyer and perhaps even gives them more control over their own buying journey?
“Gartner did a study about a year ago and I think it said that 45, 50% of B2B buyers, not B2C buyers, but B2B buyers preferred a rep-less buying experience. Rep-less. That's stunning. Bain & Company just did one as well. Their numbers were even higher. I think they were at 90%. So people know that reps aren't going away, but our time is shrinking. So when we have that time, we have to maximise it and we have to drive value.” – George Donovan · [04:27]
George Donovan:
Yeah, both. I would say it's a little bit of both. We hope that salespeople don't get lazy, they just have to change their selling process a little bit. You've read recent studies, Gartner, the tech analyst company. They did a study earlier last year, about a year ago now, I think it said that 50%, 45, 50% of B2B buyers, not B2C buyers, but B2B buyers preferred a rep-less buying experience. Rep-less. That's stunning. Bain & Company, a consulting firm, they just did one as well. Their numbers were even higher. Now, I think they were at 90%. So people know that reps aren't going away, but our time is shrinking. Our time is shrinking face-to-face or belly-to-belly or ear-to-ear with customers. So when we have that time, we have to maximise it and we have to drive value.
George Donovan:
And how we can do that if we're not face-to-face is through these technologies like digital sales rooms, by making sure that we're getting the customer the right content at the right time based on their needs.
The Value You Should Expect From Using Digital Sales Rooms · [05:25]
Will Barron:
So, just so I can clarify this for myself and the audience as well. We're not trying to do this purely on the basis of rather than doing three calls throughout the buyer's journey where I explain this in person, we're not just trying to use content so that I can scale my calls to a thousand people in a thousand rooms. And I drop in occasionally and touch on them. We're still doing the, I hate the cliche, this human-to-human kind of sales process. But we're just, and again, I hate this term also, because we use it all… You use this as well, I'm sure, we're enabling the buyer to do some of the work. Not some of the work, we're enabling them to do what they want to do and have a buying process that they feel is appropriate rather than the stereotype of the used car salesperson of dragging the person in and not letting them go until they made a decision.
George Donovan:
You've got it. You've got it. And this is more about when they're at the point where they want to engage. That's the real value of digital sales rooms. So, this isn't replacing sales engagement platforms that help automate messaging and cold calling and email outreach to customers. It's not that. This is, you've gone through that, and a prospect says, “Okay, I want to engage. I to have a conversation.”
George Donovan:
Now, what we've all learned, especially folks who did a lot of face-to-face selling in the past, is that you have to change your process. As this trend of less seller engagement continues to happen and with the fact that many of us are virtual and will stay virtual, salespeople have really had to take a step back and think about how do I change my selling manner? How do I change my motion to include more of this virtual selling methodology, if you will? And also appreciate that customers don't want to engage with me as much because, like us, Will, most of our customers are back-to-back on calls like this and they don't have a lot of time to engage with sales people.
Why Buyers Don’t Want to Engage with Salespeople · [07:25]
Will Barron:
Is that because we just suck as sales people? If we were doing a better job, would buyers want to spend more time? I know this is kind of paradoxical, for example, if I was buying your product, the organisation you work for at Allego, and I got the opportunity to speak with yourself as a CRO, I'd be going, right, I'm going to take that call. I don't want some sales room because George is going to have way more impactful insights and knowledge and he's going to save… Getting on a call with you for half an hour is going to save me 10 hours of researching and the buyer process.
Will Barron:
Now this is an extreme example, because you are an executive in a high flying tech company, but if sales people were thought leaders and were experts, true experts in their space, would this be turned on its head slightly in that buyers may proactively want to speak with them? Or do you think buyers still don't want to speak to anyone? They're just so focused on solving the problem, they want to get their head down and just get it done.
George Donovan:
I think a little bit of both, I really do. Again, the intent is not to replace sales people. And as a buyer, I'm a buyer too, I do like to talk to sales people. Especially when I feel like they understand my world. But we all know, again, more studies, lots of these have validated that most B2B buyers are 60, 70, 80% of the way through their buying journey before they ever engage with a salesperson. So, with a lot of other technologies, not Allego, but other technologies, you can track how many times have they hit your website? What are they looking at? Obviously we can look at them on social media. So, we're collecting all these bits and bites of information to help us understand this persona. What does George Donovan want? What is he looking at? What does he care about? What are his pain points?
George Donovan:
And now, when I have a chance to engage with George, I'm engaging live, and I'm also engaging in this digital sales room to make it really easy for George to continue his journey and pull other people into the buying process. I'll give you a real quick example if I may, Will, just to bring it to life. You're selling to me, you learn a little bit about me through my activity online, and then you come at me with a real customised message. And I say, “Will, let's talk.” Great. Now, you and I are going to have our first meeting coming up. Part of virtual selling, you may send me a video ahead of time that says, “Hey, George. It's, Will, just wanted to propose an agenda for our first call, based on what I know about you. Feel free to tell me if you want to do something differently, but here's what we're doing.”
George Donovan:
Now, the reason for this is twofold. One is, it's nice to come to a meeting with an agenda and a plan, and two, it's personalising who you are. You're introducing yourself to me, because one of the things that we've found is with the condensed timeframe, a lot of sales calls are half an hour now when you're on a Zoom call, and you don't have that time to do bonding and rapport, you don't have time to learn as much about the salesperson or the customer. People want to get right down to business, especially in the tech world. And so using an introductory video is a nice way to bridge that gap. Now that video can go sit in the digital sales room, that's the first piece of content.
George Donovan:
So you and I have our initial call, I get your video, we have our initial call, now you're going to tell me, you're going to say, “George, I'm going to start something called a digital sales room for you and this is a place for all of our exchanges to be in one spot.” And you can explain the benefits to me. And now we're off. Everything you share with me, proposal, goes in the digital sales room, a PowerPoint deck goes in the digital sales room, the recording of our first call goes in the digital sales room. So you have memorialised this entire sales process to help the buyer go back to it and access content when they need it.
The Future of Sales in this Fast Moving Digital Environment · [11:20]
Will Barron:
I want to come back to making this practical and real for the audience in the session, but I'd be totally amiss here of all this hype around Facebook's metaverse and NVidia have just come out with their version of the future of virtual reality and augmented reality. Could we get to a position or how far away from a position are we where we jump into a 3D Zoom call? Maybe we don't even do that, I don't even know where I'm going with this question. I'm kind of pulling this together as I go along with, but it seems like sales, virtual selling, being able to meet people in person via virtual means in this metaverse seems like the next step of an actual room with actual virtual paperwork or screens on the walls.
Will Barron:
Is that the future that sales is heading to? Where there will be, whether it's even an avatar, it's just an AI who's guiding the buyer through the buying process until they need to speak to an actual human. Is that where we're moving to with all of this in the next five to 10, 50 years?
George Donovan:
Yes, absolutely. I think we are. And we're halfway there. I think we're halfway there already. You do need the intelligence of a salesperson to problem solve and put the right content in the digital sales room and facilitate the whole process, but you still need the person, but eventually AI is going to get smart enough, machine learning is getting smart enough to understand and to start to populate. Even today in digital sales rooms, while it's not alive, we're not face-to-face in a digital sales room, there is chat capabilities where you're reviewing some content, you have a question, I'm going to get a notification that you have a question on that and we can go back and forth. So we're heading in that direction and imagine replacing me to answering that question with some sort of an AI bot, very, very doable today.
How Long Before Salespeople Become Obsolete? · [13:17]
Will Barron:
So we'll come back to 2022 in a second. I love this topic because clearly this is where a lot of the less complex B2B, if you're signing up for an app, a SaaS software service, something like that, I think avatars and AI is going to solve a lot of sales pain and buyer journey problems for buyers in the future. How far away are we? Let's talk about a product. I don't know, we'll talk about a… Maybe not a CRM, because that'd be complicated. Some kind of software product, how far away do you think we are of combining of multiple AIs or APIs to integrate with different organisations and different softwares and tools, where the buyer doesn't need a salesperson? Just doesn't need one. All the question's been answered.
Will Barron:
Perhaps we've got now five years of data of sales people having, well, maybe in five years time, we'll have the real time data of sales people, creating content, sharing it within digital sales rooms, knowing what makes a buyer put their hand up, knowing the response that the salesperson has to give to them.
Will Barron:
So we're not just imagining a scenario where an all-knowing AI comes along and just solves all issues, because we're all knackered at that point. That's a conversation for another time. We're verging into Terminator territory there, but let's assume that we've got data on real life activities from real interactions and we can use machine learning and other techniques to leverage some of that. How far are we from taking all that data and creating an avatar for an organisation that can just nudge the buyer along the buying process, help them along, give them the insights, give them the content without a salesperson being involved for a, I don't know, like a mid-size B2B deal?
George Donovan:
Yeah. That last point that you added, the mid-size B2B deal. I think that's the key. I can certainly envision a reckless B2B buying process for smaller deals, SMB, smaller deals, 5,000, 10,000, maybe even 15,000. I think people are comfortable going forward and buying that, if it's not new technology. New technology, they need to do a lot more exploration, understanding, a lot more questions. But if this is a, I'm replacing what I have with something new that's just a little bit better based on peer reviews, and the price is about the same and I don't need to get anybody else involved. They're going to do it.
George Donovan:
That capability is going to be there in the not too distant future. It may even be happening today, Will. I think where it starts to get interesting is if it's a, two things, a new technology, again, a lot more questions that have to be answered from a live person. And then if it gets above a certain dollar threshold, I don't know what that dollar threshold is, but there's certainly a dollar threshold where human behaviour, people will get uncomfortable without engaging with a human to make a purchase.
Will Barron:
Sure. I know for us, it's an N equals one experiment, since data doesn't mean to anything in the grand scheme of things, but we, this year moving forward of our training programme, which the audience can find over at salesman.org, for years, and we were ahead of the curve, I want to say I was some visionary in the world of sales training, George, not really. I just didn't want to have a team of sales trainers. So we did all our training online and we pushed people to go for our online training rather than in-person workshops. I didn't want to travel around the world doing in-person training. And so we lead into that, we built data on it, and I don't want to bore the audience because they know all about it at this point. What we did in December moving forward though, was we… We've had a couple of new team members, and I do some of it as well, we've now added a mentoring element to the product.
Will Barron:
So the price has gone up substantially because of that and we've found we're doing way more revenue, people are way more excited and it's because the differentiator now, everyone having gone virtual and all sales training companies got on this bandwagon that I've been banging the drum of, of online training when they were pushing for in-person training before COVID in the pandemic. Now that we are doing more one-on-one interactions, more mentoring, more group training, people are loving and happy to pay extra for that human touch.
Will Barron:
So, it's interesting to me of your cut off there of, if you've got a product, and you mentioned peer reviews, which are going to become clearly massive over time, if not, they're already massive at the moment. But having peer reviews from colleagues, from people in the same or similar industries, going from one price point to a similar price point, changing on features or benefits or new innovations, I totally agree that all that is just… That market for sales people's just going to be wiped out. That's just going to be customer service people managing those calls, answering questions, or even being pushed into customer success of just get people on, this is likely going to be a subscription service and we can deal with issues as we go along.
How to Build an Effective Digital Sales Room · [18:12]
Will Barron:
So, with all that said, let's imagine a scenario now where we're doing mid to high deal sizes. So, 50 to a million, a quarter a year, it's a complex product. We need an engineer in there, we need an on-site visit. We need something else going on. There's going to be a barrier to people just signing up and using AI chat bots, stuff like that. What do we need to do to make an effective digital sales room? Is the starting point to map out the customer's buying cycle? Or is it to look at our typical sales cycle that we take people through and map the experience in the digital sales room there? Do we start with what the buyer wants, which may be right or wrong, or do we start with what we know gets people to make purchases?
George Donovan:
A little bit of both. In Allego's digital sales rooms for example, we have templates, we work with our customers to build up templates. So if you know that you're selling to this persona, with these interests, in this industry, the digital sales room can be pre-populated in seconds by a salesperson with some content that we believe might be of interest to this persona. Or you can completely allow the salesperson to customise the digital sales room with hand-picked content because they do know more about the buyers interests and where they are in their buying journey.
George Donovan:
So you've got flexibility to do both. And I think most of them do start with some pieces of content that you know are in the general area of interest based on the engagement of that prospect, to date. But where it changes is once you start to engage and you talk to that person and you are asking the right questions and you're hearing more about what's of interest to them and where they are in that journey, as you say, and where they need to go next, and you're helping to facilitate. It might be white papers. It might be ROI analysis, whatever it is that's important to that prospect. That's the stuff that's going in the digital sales room because they access that repetitively.
George Donovan:
That's what we have seen. Customers just don't look at these things once, they go in and they look at it three, four times and that's a hot piece of content. And then all of a sudden you see they invited someone else. I'm going to invite, Will in here now. And Will comes in, Will starts heat seeking to that same content. What does that tell you? Well, as a salesperson you start saying, “Okay, they're really interested in,” if they're looking at that ROI, Return on Investment content, that would probably tell me that they're interested and they're trying to think of a way to cost justify it or trying to think of a way to go get the budget. So, as a salesperson, you might put two and two together and say, “Hmm, maybe I might want to add a white paper in here on return on investment from some of our other customers that might be helpful.”
George Donovan:
So now as a seller, you make an educated guess, you put a little piece of content in there that's a case study from another customer on ROI. And you see if that content lights up, meaning, all the people in digital sales rooms start accessing it. Now you're onto something. If it goes cold and nobody touches it, maybe you're off direction, and you've got to go back to them and ask more questions. So that's why I say it's a little bit of a new selling process. Sellers have to think about things differently than the way they did when they were always communicating face-to-face or over the phone.
How to Gauge the Effectiveness of a Digital Sales Room · [21:46]
Will Barron:
Sure. How do we know? And I'm coming from this from the perspective of, I am just a knuckle dragging salesperson, I think I probably know better than what I actually do. So, knowing the people and have data that people have clicked on this, they haven't clicked on this, clearly that's going to be very valuable. Especially if you've got a team of a hundred sales reps, a marked some kind of data scientist will be able to pick up on some of this. The platform itself can hopefully give us some insights as well.
Will Barron:
But is there all… Where I'm going with this is, is this just an experiment for six months on hunches and best guesses? Because if I put this together now for my customers, I think I would know what I was doing, but being honest, I'd be blagging a lot of it and I'd be hoping for some kind of insights on the back end. Is this something that we've got to use the scientific method of making a hypothesis, testing it, then refining our hypothesis until we get as close to the results as we possibly can? Is this something that we need to just accept that's part of the process and can refine it over time?
George Donovan:
Yeah. I think it's easy. I think it's easier than that. I think it's common sense. A lot of it is just common sense. We've been studying this now. So, you have some customers, don't ever go in there. They don't go into the digital sales room, they'd rather email back and forth when they need something. Even if they need something three or four times, they'll keep asking for it rather than going back to one place. So, take them aside.
George Donovan:
And then you have other people who just spend so much time in there and you can clearly see patterns. And another thing we can layer in is Allego also has a module for conversational intelligence where we're recording calls and AI analysis on the transcripts of those calls. So now you're starting to combine what the customer is saying with what they're doing in the digital sales room to give sales people a real good picture of where they are in that buying journey and how you can help facilitate with the proper content or commentary to help them get to close.
Are You Procrastinating By Hiding Behind Digital Sales Rooms? · [23:48]
Will Barron:
What I want to get out of you, George, is how much of this… A lot of salespeople in my experience will use a tool like, not necessarily Allego, and there's other tools in the marketplace, we'll talk about the product you represent towards the end of the show. They hide behind some of this and people are hiding behind social selling right now. This is the key one of people will ping someone on LinkedIn and comment on their post for four years before they'll pick up the phone and ask them if they're actually interested in engaging with them, because it seems nice and it seems you can automate some of it, and it seems like you could drop a few emails in a cadence, you're going to be rocking and rolling.
Will Barron:
But then the reality is, for a lot of people, that it takes years of learning how to copyright for these emails, it takes years of data collection within the organisation you work for to pinpoint as we're discussing here, some of the right content at the right time. Some of it is common sense, a lot of it's common sense, some of it is gut feeling, which is obviously not very scalable if we're talking from a leadership perspective. How do we know whether we are procrastinating by going here's another piece of content, here's another piece of content? When some of this could be solved by just picking up the phone, if the buyer is willing, and having an actual one-on-one conversation with them. How do we bridge the gap between in this is tonnes of valuable content, this allows the buyer to go at their own pace, but also I've got a quota to hit and really, if a couple conversations can solve these issues in real time, maybe I should be doing that as well? How do we balance out between the two, if there is a way?
George Donovan:
Absolutely there is a way. And that's what we, at Allego, that's what we teach people to do. Our co-founders wrote a book last year called Mastering Virtual Selling. We obviously have the technology around virtual selling and there really isn't a canned methodology for virtual selling. So we wanted to try to create one, and to your point, Will, we've got this concept of the salesperson is a maestro, okay. And there is front stage work, which is live with the customer that's very important. And what are all the things that you do when you're on stage, you're in performance? How do you master that? And then when you're backstage, as all of us who have ever been to a concert or participating in a concert, you know there's a lot of work that goes on backstage to make that concert, that front stage performance, successful.
How to Create Presence in Your Absence Using Digital Sales Rooms · [24:40]
George Donovan:
So, what are all the things that sellers should be doing on the back end, which is including things like managing a digital sales room, but it doesn't take away the importance of that front stage activity. It's a way to balance the two; front stage and backstage. And we have a term in the book called creating presence in your absence. Creating presence in your absence. So we all have live calls, and then what happens? Couple of weeks until you can get the customer back on the phone, maybe a month between calls, how do you create presence in your absence with smart content that's adding value to the customer's buying journey? And that's what digital sales rooms are all about.
Will Barron:
Love it. We talk about a similar concept all the time and I pinched this from, who did I pinch it from? I can't who it is, but this idea of building trust at distance. Similar kind of thing. If you can keep adding insights, adding value over time, you inadvertently build trust. You have kind of a following going on LinkedIn and stuff. So do I. I find this all the time. I speak to people, I've never spoken to them before. They've listened to 400 episodes of the podcast. They know everything about me, my dog, my life, and I've built that trust at a distance. So I feel like that's what we're kind of doing on a smaller scale on a one-to-one level here with digital sales rooms and sharing content.
Should Salespeople Be Creating Content or They Simply Need to Curate Relevant Content for Their Buyers? · [27:42]
Will Barron:
Let me ask you this, because this was a contentious issue maybe like two or three years ago, but I feel it's less contentious now, should sales people be purely curating content or should there be an element of them creating content for the buyers? And the line is a little bit blurred as we talk about digital sales rooms because I guess what I'm asking is, I'm not saying a sales person should probably write an ebook on the problems that their buyers have. That's going to be a waste of time unless they want to build that thought leadership and perhaps take their career on a slightly different level, on a different angle. But should sales people be in a digital sales room going through the content? Whether this is possible or not, but highlighting things or say, “Go to this page in this PDF.” And really drilling things down and making things simple for the buyer. Or is that the job on marketers to create amazing content that salespeople are really proud to give to their potential customers?
“You have to be relevant. And that is the key today because nobody has time to just go through a boring generic sales process.” – George Donovan · [29:00]
George Donovan:
I think it's a bit of both. I do believe it's marketing's job to come up with real relevant and good content based again, the more finite we can get based on industry, persona, size of business, interests, past buying behaviour, purchasing behaviour, the better off we can be. We want to be relevant. And that is the key today because nobody has time to just go through a boring generic sales process. You just don't, no matter what business you're in. So yes, a lot of it is on marketing, but a lot of it is on the salesperson too, again, to think differently and really maximise those, how do I maximise my digital sales room? And then how do I maximise proving value and helping the customer solve problems while I'm having that short window of opportunity to speak to them live? So I think it's a bit of both, Will.
The Primary Role of a Digital Sales Room and How to Get the Most Out of It · [29:40]
Will Barron:
That makes sense. So George, we can wrap up, a few more questions now. Let's say Sam the salesperson wants to sell to you, George. I'm sure you've got some decent size budgets in your organisation. They want to suck some of that cash from your back pocket. They want to convince you, they know the value of a digital sales room, you know the value of a digital sales room, but you're freaking busy. Maybe you don't want to commit to jumping in here. You know that once you get in, you're going to get sucked into it. There's going to be loads of content. You're probably going to have a great time. You're going to learn a load, but you've got your own quotas and targets to hit in the meantime. What would be the process of Sam the salesperson from cold outreach, whether they call, email, LinkedIn, whatever it is, what steps would they have to go through to get you into a digital sales room?
George Donovan:
Ooh, that's a tough question. Did you say a Sandler salesperson? Is that the word you used?
Will Barron:
Sam the salesperson. Sam's just a generic gender-neutral name value. [crosstalk 00:30:31]. Sam the salesperson.
George Donovan:
Oh, that is a tough question. Let me think about this one. Again, the primary intent of digital sales rooms are to be used once I'm engaged. Once we've had some form of hello. It's not to pursue me through a sales engagement platform. That's not what it is. So, let's assume you've got my attention. The salesperson got my attention, and now we're having a conversation, I have some sort of a need. The reason I personally love digital sales rooms, and I've heard other VPs of Sales, CROs say the same thing, is because if I'm buying something, Will, and I have a need, I have an interest, it's not about sparking that interest. It's about, I know I have something I want to look at buying or I know I'm going to buy it.
George Donovan:
Now, I might talk to two or three vendors. And I've got two or three vendors sending me follow up emails. I've got two or three vendors sending me PowerPoint decks, proposals, white papers, pricing spreadsheets, changes to their pricing spreadsheets. I don't know about you, but for years I've faced the challenge of not being able to find that content. I'm searching through my email, who sent that? Who sent this? How is this different?
George Donovan:
But with a digital sales room as a buyer, how my life gets easier, I just go to one click, one link, for Allego in this case let's say, and there it is, it's all right there. And I can see all the exchanges and all of the content in one place. So, it's a lot about convenience for the buyers as well as that ability, as I said, to bring in others. So if I want to bring in my VPs of Sales into the digital sales room to be part of that buying committee, it's easy to do. I would sell it as convenience, and one-stop shopping for the buyer. That alone is a benefit.
How to Subtly Nudge Executives Into Your Digital Sales Room Without Being a Little Too Salesy · [32:33]
Will Barron:
So, what I'm hearing is that what we want to do is rather than just pitch George on getting into our digital sales room at all costs, we could not possibly do a deal unless you're in our digital sales room, everything's in there, George, you're a sucker if you don't join us. Perhaps what we should be doing is saying, “Hey, the meeting notes of what we just discussed and the content follow up, rather than emailing you, I've put it in the digital sales room. Here's the link. View the digital sales room, everything's in there and it's all tracked. And we can add stuff to it over time so you can keep track of everything.”
Will Barron:
Then the next meeting, “Hey, well, you asked for this, this and this. Here's the features and benefits, the specifications list, the PDF of this, PDF that. It's in the digital sales room. Check it out when you need access to this.” Is that the approach to get an executive like yourself to buy into it? As opposed to saying, “We could not possibly do any business with you, unless you suck it up and join our sales process.”
George Donovan:
You got it. That's the approach, soft-handed. They quickly see the benefits even if it's just to place to put the call recording so other people who might have missed the meeting, we hear that a lot. “My right hand person missed the meeting. Can I get that call recording?” “Sure, it'll be in the digital sales room.” And then they love the ability to invite others in as they go. It could be IT people, lawyers, you name it, but having that one place for everything is really a benefit to them and they get it pretty quickly, but you don't want to be heavy-handed with it.
Will Barron:
Sure. It makes total sense. It's almost like Dropbox for a deal. Is that a fair way to describe it?
George Donovan:
That's right. Dropbox for a deal. You've got it. With a little more intelligence and tracking and communication capability, but you've got it.
Parting Thoughts · [34:23]
Will Barron:
Sure. Amazing stuff. We'll wrap up with that. George, tell us more about Allego and how this relates to the discussion today and where we can find out more about you as well.
George Donovan:
Yeah, sure. Allego is a sales learning and enablement platform. We work with customers all around the world, large and small, to help move the needle sales. That's really what we're all about. Whether it's training, coaching, collaboration, conversational intelligence, anything that's going to help a seller, in the flow of work, get information that they need to be able to advance their knowledge and add more value to customer engagement, that's what we're all about. You can reach me, George Donovan on LinkedIn with Allego. Please say hello anytime you'd like.
Will Barron:
Amazing stuff. We'll link to that and anything else that we talked about on this show in the [inaudible 00:35:09] episode over at salesman.org. And with that, George, I appreciate your time, your insights on this and for joining us on the Salesman Podcast.
Using Strategy Rather Than Hustle To Win More Sales | Salesman Podcast
Feb 12, 2022
Troy Sandidge is an award-winning marketing strategist, the host of the iDigress podcast, and the author of Strategize Up: The Simplified Blueprint to Scaling Your Business.
In this episode of the Salesman Podcast, Troy explains the power of leveraging strategy to win more business and build a bigger life.
You'll learn:
Sponsored by:
Free SalesCode assessment
Learn your strengths and weaknesses in an instant. Taken by over 10,000+ of your competitors. Don't get left behind.
Take the free assessment
Featured on this episode:
Host - Will Barron
Founder of Salesman.org
Guest - Troy Sandidge
Award-Winning Marketing Strategist
Hi, my name is Will, and welcome to the Salesman Podcast. On today's episode, we're getting into the importance of using strategy in business in today's episode. Today's guest is Troy Sandidge. He's an award-winning marketing strategist, also known as the Strategy Hacker. He's the host of the iDigress podcast and is the author of Strategize Up. You can find out more about Troy over at findtroy.com. And with that, Troy, welcome to the show.
Troy Sandidge:
Thank you for having me. I've been dying to get on this show. So it's here. It's happening. It's real.
Will Barron:
Good. I'm glad to have you on, mate. I appreciate the energy, the excitement, and I want to get into strategy. Now, over at sales.org in our training programme, I think me and you are on the same wavelength for a lot of this. We call what you might call strategy, frameworks and systems.
Why All Salespeople Need a Well-Structured Sales Strategy · [00:50]
Will Barron:
So I want to get some definitions of this in a second, but just to lay it up for the audience, to add a bit of context here, in a world where, and this is my experience in sales 10 years ago, in a world where most sales people wake up each morning and they just are a blank slate, they pick up the phone, their laptop, they start to do whatever in that moment, it might possibly at some point, lead to a sale getting closed in the future.
Will Barron:
Why should they consider implementing a step-by-step strategy to reach sales success, rather than doing what most sales people do each day, which is just winging it?
Troy Sandidge:
Let me just make it very clear for you. When you're just winging it, executing, you don't put the finger out and just say, “At what direction should I go, I want to get to my destination?” You take your phone, plug in the coordinates of where you want to go and it automatically always reroutes you to get you to your destination.
Troy Sandidge:
So you can either execute and hope for the best, or you can put your coordinates and your strategy is always evolving, helping you, is literally your GPS to get to your destination.
Troy Sandidge:
So I don't know what sales person, frankly, what business person wouldn't choose to use a GPS to get them to their customers, to get them to the bag, to get them to their conversion rate, all the different things, the KPIs that they want, instead of just hoping for the best by just jumping and predicating on when and algorithm and faith to get you there.
Salespeople Know They Need a Strategy But They Just Don’t Follow One · [02:18]
Will Barron:
That is obvious, right, Troy? We're not preaching something that is ambiguous or is backwards here. In my experience, so sales people know this, but they don't do it. Is that similar of your experience dealing with, in the world of marketing and business consulting as well?
Troy Sandidge:
100%. I think many times people think strategy slows them down. Strategy is part of the execution process. You need a game plan. You need to build the game plan to know how you're going to win the game.
Troy Sandidge:
And I think we have to understand that instead of just gunghoing it and jumping into sales calls, getting the lead numbers up and our conversion rate is really awful, honestly, our open rate is even worse. Let's analyse and figure out who our target audience is. That's part of the work.
“The sales people that are most successful, the businesses that are killing it in the industry or that are killing it in the game are the ones that take strategy as part of the execution process, instead of just executing and hope for the best, and then want to apply strategy after the fact. We need to let strategy be the lead in.” – Troy Sandidge · [03:01]
Troy Sandidge:
And so the sales people that are most successful, the businesses that are killing it in the industry or that are killing it in the game are the ones that take strategy as part of the execution process, instead of just executing hope for the best, and then want to apply strategy after the fact. We need to let strategy be the lead in.
Why Aren’t Salespeople Implementing and Doubling Down on Strategy? · [03:30]
Will Barron:
Troy, for sales people who listen to this now and go, “Okay, right. I know this, this makes sense.” Whose fault is it that this isn't implemented? Is this sales leadership for just going, “Oh, well, I've been given a quota as a sales manager. I've just split it evenly between our sales reps.”
Will Barron:
And I've just gone, “Okay, well, you probably need to make 300 calls a month. That's what we're going to pay you against and then a commission when you close a deal on top of that.” Is it their fault or is this something that sales people need to take responsibility for themselves, and perhaps develop a strategy, develop that intellectual property that travels with them from job to job, from a career in sales to a career in leadership and beyond as well?
Troy Sandidge:
I think it's both. I do think I will lean more 60/40, 60 being the sales lead, the sales manager, the executive staff or team member over the sales, as 60%. But I do think if you've been in sales for a minute, or this is where your livelihood is, this is where your bread and butter is, it's on you too a little bit as well.
Troy Sandidge:
And I'll look at it like this, if you're the lead and you have a sales department, sales team, it's to your best benefit to prepare them. I get it, we've got to get the numbers every month, every quarter, I get it. The pressure is unbearing, even more so now than it's ever been as this pandemic has progressed.
Troy Sandidge:
And digital marketing and digital strategy in sales is such a high-octane situation and everyone's desensitised the conversations in outbound. I get it. However, what if just by chance, instead of having them cranked out another 10 more calls, 10 more outbound for the day, you take that one hour and strategize the week, strategize the month.
Troy Sandidge:
What are we seeing? What are we hearing? And let's just put that against the line, seeing if our open rates go up, if our conversions go up. I don't know what sales person wouldn't want their numbers to be more of a higher quality. Yes, the volume's always going to be there. It's always going to be there.
Troy Sandidge:
But if we can just do a little bit more that can help us increase it by even 1%, that's hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars on the banking of the year and then the grand scheme of things. And that's where I hope sales leaders think about it, but lastly, for sales people to think about that too.
Troy Sandidge:
It's up to you to have a strategy that works for you to make your numbers better and make your experience better, because we don't talk about that enough with the mental psyche and everything else when it comes to sales professionals. You've got to find that mix that works for you to be at your best at all times.
Will Barron:
How much of the strategy that you teach, you can sort on, you're writing books on it, comes down to strategy to help people implement a strategy? So whether that's productivity or getting people over things like the fear of rejection, if it's a sales person specifically, helping people have, I don't know, healthy self-esteem, whatever it is so that they can put the strategy into place.
The Link Between Sales Success and Implementing an Effective Sales Strategy · [05:55]
Will Barron:
How much of success comes from those strategies versus a step-by-step strategy to increase outbound cadence uptake and email open rates and things like that?
Troy Sandidge:
I think it's more so internal. And the reason why I lean more internal, it's very simply, let's say you got 100 more sales calls end of every week, let's say you got way more outbound every month, every quarter, let's just say whatever number you've been chasing and trying to get to, let's say you get it.
Troy Sandidge:
Now, let's say you get it and you get the same result, the exact same flat-lining percentage opens, conversions, conversation, sales, the whole shebang. You probably feel pretty bad. I've been chasing this number and I got it, and the result was still the same.
Troy Sandidge:
And the reason a lot of that is the case, is that who's going to turn down more sales? But do they have the mental capacity, the fortitude and the tech savvy is all the things they need to maintain that level of capacity? In most cases they don't. They've been chasing a ghost for so long, they didn't realise, “I don't have the capacity that if I acquire this, I can't maintain it.”
Troy Sandidge:
And so I focus less on, anybody in the market who's been in the market, they can make the numbers look better. Anybody can. There can be a spike in the data at any point in time, but not too many teach you and educate you on how to build sustainable strategies.
“Salespeople of any profession, no matter the industry, need to have sustainable systems so they can maintain that high performance capacity for a long stretch of time. Otherwise, they're going to get burned out.” – Troy Sandidge · [07:59]
Troy Sandidge:
And sales people of any profession, no matter your industry, you need to have sustainable systems, so you can maintain the capacity for a long stretch of time. Otherwise, you're going to get burned out.
Troy Sandidge:
You're not going to be ready when you're in the fourth quarter, I'm a big NBA guy, so when you're in the fourth quarter and you've got to take that final shot, and this is for all the [marbles 00:08:08], you flop the ball because you didn't have the capacity to handle it because you were burnt out this whole time.
“Tactics are always going to change. The ‘how’ is always going to change, but where I am now and where I want to be, doesn't.” – Troy Sandidge · [08:25]
Troy Sandidge:
And so it's just conserving your energy. And I think it really fortifies on your mental capacity. And then from there, the tactics and everything else come in, because tactics are always going to change. The how is always going to change, just like your GPS. Traffic, slow, everything is going to change, but where I am now and where I want to be, does it.
Troy Sandidge:
So as long as you have a strategy that keeps you going, “Oh, this is going down, I'm pivoting, I'm switching, I'm pivoting, I'm switching.” And that's how I wish to work in the grand scheme of things.
The 20-Mile March in Sales · [09:00]
Will Barron:
Are you familiar with this idea of The 20 Mile March from Jim Collins' books?
Troy Sandidge:
I'm not sure. Please familiarise myself.
Will Barron:
I talk about this all the time. Some of the regular audience will know this. “Will, why are you banging on about this dumb book again?” But he talks about this idea of The 20 Mile March of the companies who go from good to great. They go to work every day and they march 20 miles.
Will Barron:
If the weather is shitty, they walk 20 miles. If the weather is great and they could do 60 miles, they do 20 miles. And they plod on for years and years upon decades, upon decades, constantly ploughing forward.
Will Barron:
Companies who have spits and spats of success, who have peaks and troughs of success will go, “Oh, today's great. The weather's fantastic. The wind's behind us. We'll do 120 miles,” and they crash the next three or four days.
Will Barron:
And tell me if you agree with this, but I feel like sales is similar of, you need to know your numbers, know what you need to achieve each day to reach your end goal, your target, hit your numbers, and then maybe do a couple more calls if you've got the energy. But maybe not, maybe just get with The 20 Mile March and be ready to do the same thing tomorrow, because tomorrow you might not feel like it, but tomorrow might be the opportunity.
Will Barron:
Tomorrow there might be the opportunity to close the biggest deal that you've ever done. Unless you show up, it can't happen. Can it?
“I think success is boring. Sure, there's moments of sexiness in there, but if you want really clear success, it's boring because you're doing the fundamentals all the time.” – Troy Sandidge · [10:08]
Troy Sandidge:
I agree with that, 100%. I think success is boring. Sure, there's moments of sexiness in there, but if you want really clear success, it's boring because you're doing the fundamentals all the time.
Troy Sandidge:
That's it. I'd rather be more consistent and know that I can always hit, like you said, that 20 miles than like, I'm always chasing 60 and I stop at five. And the numbers are just all crazy. I'd rather have consistency over everything and have that more sustainable process and formulas to make it work.
Will Barron:
So in your book, it seems like there are different categories of strategy and different elements that make up strategies. And you mentioned one there, that needs to be sustainable. You also talk about it being simple and scalable. Now, they both fit with what we teach in our training programme or Selling Made Simple Academy.
Will Barron:
And our motto or our slogan is, making selling simple, because I've found, and I'm sure this resonates with you yourself, because we seem to have a similar philosophy of a lot of this Troy, that complexity just kills stuff.
Troy Explains Why Simple Sales Strategies Always Yield the Best Results · [11:07]
Will Barron:
Doesn't matter how good your process is, if it's complex and there's 27 steps, most people get to four and then they just go back to winging it every day. Can you tell us maybe some examples of strategies or how this gets implemented of something that was made simpler, something that can be scalable and then the sustainability of the elements of it as well?
Troy Sandidge:
Oh, we're a million percent in the line. I mean, I would say, most businesses die by the way of the three Cs; complexity, confusions and complications. No one can replicate the success because they don't even know what's going on.
Troy Sandidge:
The process and steps are too complicated, so people who are onboarded, can't fulfil everything and then your audience doesn't know what's going on, so they are too reluctant to trust you. Therefore, they don't want to convert, therefore, they're not exchanging and giving you money for whatever the product or service or solution that you offer.
Troy Sandidge:
And then, ooh, things fall down. So I really think that we do got to make things simple. Like I said, the success, simplicity is a straight line and the more efficient you are, sometimes we've got to understand that efficiency doesn't mean you're taking on more than you can chew and you're still winning.
“We've got to understand that efficiency doesn't mean you're taking on more than you can chew and still be winning. Sometimes efficiency is just one task for the day and being the best at that task, and then repeat, repeat, repeat.” – Troy Sandidge · [12:16]
Troy Sandidge:
Sometimes efficiency is just one task for the day and being the best at that task, and then repeat and then repeat. Like I said, major success is boring. I don't want to get a high in the process. I want to get a high in that we're getting those numbers, we're winning, we're winning, we're winning.
Troy Sandidge:
And it's really understanding that. Now again, strategy for a lot of people, seems boring. Strategy seems like, “I don't want to do that work.” You know how you get an instruction manual for something and you're like, “I'm too macho to read the instructions.”
Will Barron:
Of course.
Troy Sandidge:
“I'm just going to figure it out and wing it.”
Will Barron:
Because we're blokes, we're not going to read it.
Troy Sandidge:
And you've spent all this extra time trying to figure something out and then you have too much pride to go back to the instruction manuals, and it tells you right there where it is.
Will Barron:
There's always one screw left at the end of whatever you're trying to build anyway. And you're like, “Oh, well, this is probably going to last about 15 minutes before it falls apart.”
Troy Sandidge:
So I think in the same way, like I said, strategy is part of your GPS system and you need it. I also want to say it like this, and I know you align with this too, we have to repeat ourselves. We have to get it in our minds, what we're seeing, what we're doing, what's working, what's not working, the fundamentals, all those different things.
Troy Sandidge:
So it may seem, listeners, that we're repeating ourselves, but we're trying to really take the time to emphasise what you need to implement within yourself and your process, and your business and your strategy, and your profession in order to get the results that you seek.
Troy Sandidge:
It's funny, and I know you understand this too, there's been so many times I'll have a client call or a customer or a brand come to me and they just want the magic peel, “Just give me the sauce.”
Troy Sandidge:
And all I'm doing the whole time is asking them a series of questions. “Troy, all you did was ask me all these questions.” Well, unless I know all the details and the information, we can't build you a framework. I don't know what's going on. I don't know what you see. I don't know what your customers see. We need as many vantage points as we can to then create the map, create the GPS, to get us to where we want to be.
Troy Sandidge:
And it's amazing how we still in the 21st century in 2022, choose to just run straight through the fire without understanding the full complexity of what's going on first in the situation, evaluating the situation, and then taking action.
Troy Sandidge:
That small pause could be the difference between getting zero and five million, 10 million, a 100 million additional dollars in this calendar year or even this quarter, however big or small your company is. Apply the ratio to you.
Troy Sandidge:
Do you mean to tell me you're going to risk not taking the additional extra 30 minutes or hour or a day or a week to process things first and then take action, just because you've got the eagerness to just want to go?
Troy Sandidge:
You don't always have to rush into things. If they're going to buy, they're going to buy because you've done the work and you know what their pain points are, and you're going to provide the solutions to those pain points to earn their trust, to get the bag. It's that simple. So we ain't in the rushing game. Let's come with our best foot forward so we can win.
Will Barron:
Let's see if we can get practical here. I'm not trying to put you on the spot here as a B2B sales expert and tell us the tips and tricks and hacks and steps here. But I think we can lead into your expertise here, Troy.
Is it Possible to Develop Our Own Strategy or Do We Need to Bring In Third Party Expertise? · [15:48]
Will Barron:
Where would we start if we were listening to this podcast right now? Me and you, we're sat in the car, we're listening the podcast and we're like, “Oh, that Troy and Will, I think they might be onto something. That Will bloke talks a lot of crap usually, but this one, this is something I want to pay attention to.”
Will Barron:
What would be the starting point to… Or let me ask, we'll go to the starting point, developing your own strategy in a second. Is it possible to develop your own strategy or do you need to bring in third-party expertise and people looking from the outside into a business scenario to be able to help build strategy? Is it possible to do it on your own, or do you need someone to help with this?
Troy Sandidge:
I personally feel in my time in 10 years of things, I think you can build it on your own first. I think you need to have an alignment of what works for you. And then as things progress, you can apply the technology systems, you can apply all the different subsets of things that align with your sales team, with your marketing team and collaboration, communication, your business organisation, and then outreach, outbound, all that stuff comes after the fact.
Troy Sandidge:
But if you don't have the core nucleus of how you want to attack sales, how you want to acquire sales and have that ironed out, bringing in a third-party person is just going to burn more time, take longer to evaluate, which is causing you money, and you're not making a profit from certain things. So I think you can start out by building it yourself.
Troy Sandidge:
And you're like, “Well, Troy, what do you mean? Where do I go from?” And I know I talk in a lot of concepts because I feel most people lack the depth of concepts. They always want to do it in tactics, they're galore. Software's galore, technology is galore. Best practises by top voices is galore.
Troy Sandidge:
But the fundamentals are lacking. The core concepts are lacking, so that's where my comfortability speaks into for many people who are listening. So I always apply first, let's apply the DART-marking methodology, where you sit on the DART and find the stuff out and then simply you be direct, be authentic, be resourceful and tactical.
Troy Sandidge:
What positions you to be your most direct self? Is that email? Is that live video? Is it that, now honestly in-person is stolen right now, but you can still emulate that same connectivity if you know how to expound your language on LinkedIn and outbound reach and different things like that.
Troy Sandidge:
How are you your most authentic self? What makes you your most authentic self? Is that email, is that blogs, is that video? And then how are you being resourceful? I think the sales people are the most resourceful people that I know because they're going to find a way to get the bag.
Troy Sandidge:
They're going to find a way to get those numbers. But in many cases, that resourcefulness expands on maintaining the ability of getting successful and then being tactical of which things you're going to apply to maintain that success.
Troy Sandidge:
And so yes, the core thing of that DART; direct, authentic, resourceful and tactical is a concept, but through that concept, you can build a strategy built on your own personal persona of how well you do outbound, what your digital platforms are, choice, what's your outbound reach of choice?
Troy Sandidge:
And now that you've lined that out, now I can get a third-party person to build me a funnel or help me figure out how to hustle my CRM or how to use this, or how to use that in tangent with my strengths, knowing my weaknesses, my opportunities and my threats.
Troy Sandidge:
It sounds silly, this is sales one-on-one, this is marketing one-on-one, but I always lean on the fundamentals first and then expound out going at it, because ain't no gimmick going to help you if you don't know the fundamentals.
The First Step to Using Strategy to Win More Sales · [19:10]
Will Barron:
Do we, and I don't want to contradict you here, and you might double down on your response there. Do we as sales people, and this is different perhaps if you're a founder of a startup or you're a small business owner who's also doing sales, but let's lean into this idea that there's an enterprise sales person listening to this.
Will Barron:
Is step one, “I'm really good at writing copy. I've got lots of influence over email, so I should do email?” Or should we look at the marketplace and go, “Well, my buyers would prefer to be communicated with on this platform in this way, even though I suck at doing in-person meetings,” or whatever it is.
Will Barron:
The answer is obviously it depends, but should we, if we need a starting point to build a process here, should it be on what the market wants or should we really just lean into our strengths?
Troy Sandidge:
I think it leans into what the market does want, but you have to learn how to convert your strength to match that marketplace. I know it feels like I contradicted myself, so let me clean that up a little bit.
Troy Sandidge:
So the marketplace is going to point blank tell you, “This is what we want. For us to give you the bag, you've got to come this way. This is what we are used to seeing in this moment, in this season,” apply whatever dates and ranges and timelines that you want.
Troy Sandidge:
So me as a sales person, me as the company looking at this, well, our strength is in writing. We are not live-video people. None of us are. We panic, we freak out. Well, if we know that point A is, we're really good at writing. And to get to the bag, point B is, we've got to do live video, how do we take what we do best which is writing, and convert that into a situation so we can get to point B, a live video, being that medium to get to the bag?
Troy Sandidge:
And to me, it's just figuring out how do I connect the two? So if you are someone who wants to go live, there's a thing called social audio, baby. It gives you the same implications, you ain't got to worry about your makeup and you ain't got to worry about none of this other stuff.
Troy Sandidge:
And coming in having conversations in bulk, shoot, you can put everybody that you had on your timeline for the week, and in one conversation start asking as many questions you want, your position as thought leader, everyone's like, “Okay, yeah. I would've asked that too.”
Troy Sandidge:
And maybe by that, you're getting more conversions and doing less work, so now you're just scheduling bulk of social audio conversations in private settings or public settings and retooling that as marketing of sales funnels to get more conversations through the door.
Troy Sandidge:
Well, and the way that you did that, you're reading off things that you wrote. You're asking questions you already had pre-written. Nobody knows, because your delivery is just reading the very concise thing and leaning in the strength that you're always trying to do.
Troy Sandidge:
So obviously that's one example. You can retool that for whoever it makes sense, but I definitely think the marketplace tells you the how, that's why I said tactics are always changing. But if you have your concepts down to the fundamentals, our strength is writing, we're trying to get to live video, we just got to build a bridge to get there.
Troy Sandidge:
That's easier for me to work at, or bring a third-party person to help me after the fact because I know that information than to go at it blind, leading on my best strength and not getting anywhere.
Will Barron:
Dude, that is so smart, and you've doubled down on it towards the end of your answer there of, a lot of sales people will go, “Okay, I'll go on Reddit, I'll go on LinkedIn. I see that videos on LinkedIn messages are hot right this second and so I'm going to spend the next three weeks spamming them to the whole of my audience and pissing everyone off.”
Will Barron:
And then they move on to the next thing. And then the next thing they're going from hack to tactic, to tip, to trick. From a lot of the time, people who don't actually sell anything, they sold like 20 years ago, wrote to bucking out, they speak on stage and BS about it, right?
Will Barron:
People should hold me accountable as well. So people see my live sales calls, we post it on YouTube, they're all over the place. So you should take advice and tips and tricks and hacks and tactics. You should think about the source that some of these are coming from because a lot of them are not statistically significant to the data that people are throwing out there that you should do X and Y.
Will Barron:
But what you said was, when you lean into your strengths, it discourages you from jumping around because you're going to have an expertise in one, two, three, especially that lead generation.
Will Barron:
People are either going to be really good at writing copy, they're going to be really charismatic and able to do live video and be able to be quick-witted like you are yourself, Troy. You're very quick-witted and intelligent, so I can throw questions at you and you can bounce back and look great on video.
Will Barron:
Some people might just be great at outbound sales calls because they don't give a shit, and they're happy to be rejected all day, every day until they get the right person at the right place, at the right time, and then they can strike up a conversation.
Why Leaning Into Your Strengths is All You Need to Succeed in Sales · [23:43]
Will Barron:
When we lean into our strengths, which is what you're saying here, it almost eliminates 50 other different options and simplifies the whole process, right?
Troy Sandidge:
I agree. And you hear the thing all the time, quality over quantity. I know that's like, “Oh, I'm triggered, what's going on?” It's the greatest debate ever. And I still think quality matters, but here's how I spin it. And I'm sure it has already been talked about on the show, is that how the content, how your process, how the pitch can be easily converted to fit whatever medium my client, my target audience, my ideal customer is.
Troy Sandidge:
And if that same context, that same piece of content, that same strategy can fit like water in whatever mould it's in, if it absorbs and fits the cup, it fits the shape, no matter what it is, it fits to its shape, that's higher quality to me because now I can consistently get more volume out of it, that a higher chance of getting the conversions that I want.
Troy Sandidge:
And yeah, I know marketers, we get a bad rep sometimes and sales people do and there's a whole dance of right and left arm, cousins, brothers, sisters, it's a whole mess between us. I don't know why we're still debating here because we need both to get the bag.
Troy Sandidge:
We need both to work in harmony, to make it work. One is not better than the other. If you're on one side, you may disagree with me, but I do think there's some harmony there. And part of that is understanding the dynamic of how you approach your process and your content. Quality can be converted to fit different things.
“If you can take one piece of content and distribute it a hundred different ways, that's a very valuable piece of content.” – Troy Sandidge · [25:20]
Troy Sandidge:
I think Ross Simmons says it all the time that it matters how much distribution one piece of content can do, one process can do. If you can take one piece of content and distribute a hundred different ways, that's a very valuable piece of content.
Troy Sandidge:
And even though it may take an additional hour or additional week to make, that's saving you time to get more numbers to have more conversations. And so that's just how I see it sometimes in that dynamic when it comes to strategy as well, implementation, is finding that balance.
Troy Sandidge:
Yes, we want the highest amount of volume, but if we're still hitting the same numbers and missing all the time, we've got to reel it back in. I'd rather have a slight shorter volume in the interim and get my numbers up a little bit more, and then go.
Troy Sandidge:
But obviously on the other side, I'm not trying to double down and flip myself out of my conversation. You do got to test, you do got to understand the marketplace, but you still got to go to your assurance and figure that out accordingly. How do I connect the two?
Will Barron:
Yeah. I'll go on the record, and this idea from, I had Greg Mckeown offer of Effortless on the podcast. He tried to explain this to me in real time. I just didn't understand it. It was a terrible interview. He was looking at me like I was a right idiot.
Will Barron:
I was like, “I read the book. I'm really trying to understand what you're saying here, Greg,” but it wasn't sinking in. But we talked afterwards and he summed it up with just a few words and he said, “Do less, but better.”
Will Barron:
And I feel like sales is moving towards that because now 10 years ago, there wasn't a tool to automate, allow a sales person to hit a 1,000 people a week with calls, emails, and just generic spam. Marketers have been able to do it for a while who have marketing technology, but sales people haven't had access to do it.
Will Barron:
Five years ago, sales people start getting access to these tools, they just ruin it for themselves, myself included. Just spam the marketplace. And it works at first, and then obviously with the noise, everyone just starts ignoring it. You can see a spammy sales email that hasn't been customised.
Efficiency 101: Do Less But Better · [27:20]
Will Barron:
The person's name is in a slightly different font. And then halfway down the email, there's a weird line break where you've tried to insert things. You can see all this stuff from a mile away. But if you try and do less, but better, and tell me if I'm wrong here, Troy, but I think this is what you're saying of rather than scale, get the percentages, get the numbers, get the effectiveness up before you try and scale it.
Will Barron:
That in a noisy market has got to be more effective from a time, energy and cost perspective as we move forward from 2022 into the post COVID world where as you said, at the top of the show, we're not really able to knock on doors anymore. And so booking those Zoom calls via intelligent outreach is going to be way more effective than trying to book Zoom calls by just begging and spamming people.
Troy Sandidge:
Oh, I agree. And I'll echo this too. I've been saying this recently, sales, marketing, different teams in present by the industry, you need to embrace community more. Community's going to give you access to more referrals, they're going to open, they're going to make those leads more warm because it's not coming directly from you.
Troy Sandidge:
It's coming to you in tangent with somebody else. And I think what we're seeing is that even though you may be a sales person, you can have your own community of people. We're not talking about a rolodex of just people who may buy from you. I'm talking about people who can evangelise and be an advocate for you.
Troy Sandidge:
I always have to say this in a conversation, relationship status of BAY. You've got buyers, you've got advocates, and you've got elevators. The elevators are those that just promote you, connect with you on social or other means. They're just there. They're cheerleaders, they're fans, all those things.
Troy Sandidge:
Those advocates, they may not want to buy from you yet, but they got access and power to open doors and says, “Jess, Hey, this person, I didn't need them right now, but you may need them blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,” then obviously the buyers.
Troy Sandidge:
And I think we're now in a situation where we're less focused on just buyers. I have your attention for 10 minutes. I'm going to know in probably the first two and a half minutes, maybe a gut check too, that you're probably a buyer, not a buyer for me.
Troy Sandidge:
If I know that I'm switching right into an advocate conversation, “Can you become an advocate for me?” And if that's all else fails, everyone could be an elevator. That's just as simple as, “Subscribe to my email newsletter. Join this, join that, be a part of my thing.”
Troy Sandidge:
So I think applying the relationship status of BAY; buyers, advocates, and elevators is a simple way to start harvesting and growing your community, which you can do that in tangent with every sales call that you do, and the hope is that you're winning by volume of it, getting more people to be advocates, to get more money down the road for you too.
Will Barron:
So tell me if right here, it's almost like we're trying to build a snowball effect of, we start just if we're cold-calling, cold-emailing, whatever it is. But then every three or four of those people go out and email us, we create content, we connect with them on LinkedIn. Then they're going to introduce us to someone and then this rapidly compounds. Is that what we're aiming for?
Troy Sandidge:
A 100%.
How to Build and Get the Most Out of Your Community · [30:13]
Will Barron:
That's one thing to say and I appreciate it. How does a sales person, and you alluded to it there of, you know on a call whether someone has the budget, authority, time, need, all this kind of stuff. So we can pivot our calls perhaps and invite people to issue content on a call.
Will Barron:
That'd be one way of doing it. Are there any other ways, or is there any way we can systematise that process? The reason I ask Troy is, everyone knows it's obvious that we should be doing that, but then doing it day in, day out when we've got another call in another hour, and then the boss is looking over our shoulder, because we've not done as many spammy emails as he wants us to do this month.
Will Barron:
How do we make something like a referral process like that happen? How do we systemize it? How would you advise someone to implement it, so it happens organically rather than being something that you've got to remember and you're not sticking post-it notes on your monitor to ask for all this stuff to make sure it happens?
Troy Sandidge:
I can't say who the company is, but I was tasked to help a marketing task force to help them simplify this kind of strategy for them. And so the mindset was, we were coming into conversations with these three goals.
Troy Sandidge:
If they're going to be a buyer, they're going to check-mark also being an advocate and elevator, almost guaranteed. If they're not a buyer, there's a chance they could be an advocate and an elevator guaranteed. If they're not going to be an advocate, they will always be an elevator.
Troy Sandidge:
And so the conversation is less about yes, you've got to see if they're a good fit for the product or service, whether you're SAS, tech, whatever the industry may be, for the product or offering, of course, because you want the buyer. But if they're not a buyer, we'll jump right into this next conversation.
Troy Sandidge:
And so we've integrated in our CRM system, how that looks like, where it makes sense for it to happen. And then we just say, “Hey, you just get practising .” A lot of it's just reps.
Troy Sandidge:
You're just retooling to, instead of spending those last two minutes of a conversation, really trying to figure out why they said no, instead of just letting it be, because clearly we've spent the first eight minutes and it ain't going nowhere and saying, “Can I now instead shift ever so slightly, and maybe I'll win you later?”
Troy Sandidge:
Instead of just, “Hey, I'm going to email you and put you in our funnel,” and it's just very cold and whatever, let's put them in a different category to see if we can really evangelise them and help get them to help us close more deals and more sales.
Troy Sandidge:
And so it does seem very simple. There is a lot of logic to it. How do I implement it in my own CRM system? And I can't tell you all the specific of the technology and stuff involved, but it can be done. And then it has been done. And truth be told, maybe your competitors are doing it too.
“At the end of the day, your community is just going to help you get more by doing less, but being more efficient at the same time.” – Troy Sandidge · [32:54]
Troy Sandidge:
So it's just something to think about because at the core, at the end of the day, community is just going to help you get more, doing less, but being more efficient at the same.
Will Barron:
I'm trying not to plug the training product, but a lot of what you're saying is our methodologies. The audience knows it exists. They don't need an advertisement for it. But to get in the training programme, because this is a mentorship with myself and another two lads involved in it as well.
Will Barron:
We don't just let sign up. You have to do a call with myself or one of the team. Now after the call, there's a bunch of different options. And that puts people on a nurturing email series after the fact. So people sign up for the call, straight in the product, everyone's rocking and rolling, and they're happy.
Will Barron:
Sometimes people go, “Okay, that's great, but my boss in the organisation, I'm going to see if I can get them to pay for it rather than me pay for it.”
Will Barron:
So we click a button in HubSpot CRM, they get a nurturing email list with a one-pager that they can forward to their boss, a PDF of what's in the training programme and the benefits of it for the organisation, as opposed to the individual, and then gets a series of emails just to keep on top of them and keep top of mind after the fact.
Will Barron:
If they just don't have the cash and it's not a good fit, whatever it is, there's a different series of emails because six months from now, they might be a good fit. And at the end of all of these sequences, it's, “Hey, is there anyone else that you think would be a good fit for the product?”
Will Barron:
And when people sign up for the training product as well, we have a referral scheme within the product so people can refer their colleagues and we get so much attention and traffic from just that one click at the end of a phone call to a series of emails that I didn't even write.
Will Barron:
We paid a copywriter to help out with some of it. I just give them a Microsoft word document with a bunch of talking points, and they did the work for us. We get so much revenue and attention and traffic from one click of systematising this.
Will Barron:
For us little Salesman org is a tiny play lab company, there's no revenue really, right? And so for large organisations, even small businesses and small business owners who are doing five to 10 million in revenue a year, plus, they should be doing this, shouldn't they? If we could work it out, surely they should be doing it as well.
Troy Explains Why Sometimes Systematizing a Process is All You Need to Get the Most Out of the Marketplace · [34:58]
Troy Sandidge:
A 100%. I think we shouldn't just react when changes shift in the marketplace. We should be proactive and just do what we can to maintain our power, our stability, and our anchor in the marketplace and just saying, “No, we're good. I don't have to change. It's working right now.”
Troy Sandidge:
Yeah, but what if it doesn't work tomorrow? What if you start losing ground in the next month? What if quarter one is great, but quarter three is like, “Mm, it ain't what it needs to be?”
Troy Sandidge:
And so we just always should have at least a good amount of our time being aware of understanding the marketplace and how do we make sure that we're maintaining that level within the marketplace. And I agree with that a 100%.
Will Barron:
Sure. And I guess a side note, I like the psychology of this. I've never thought about this before with our own process, but it makes sense of when I jump on a call or one of the team jumps on a call to, and it's a sales call, if people want to get signed up, they have to go through us and we qualify them, make sure they're a good fit and make sure that we can help them before we take anyone's cash.
Will Barron:
But it's a sales call. We'll influence people to get signed up if they're a good fit and we want to work with them. This is how I've just described, and you went through it previous Troy, if people could implement that, it means that it's very difficult to get rejected in that scenario. It's very difficult to have a bad sales call.
Will Barron:
If the worst case scenario, someone isn't qualified, they're not a good fit, but you're still going to send them content or help them out and ask the questions and then build that relationship over time.
Will Barron:
I bet if people thought about their sales calls that way, and they can think about it that way with just a tiny bit of automation or just a few notes in your calendar to follow up in a certain way, rather than just ghost the prospect, because they've not got the budget right now in this quarter to get a deal done, it re-frames the whole sales conversation into a place and a position where sales people are going to be more excited to do them.
Why You Need to Get Past the Pass or Fail Mindset in Sales · [36:45]
Will Barron:
Because you're not just going to get the phone slammed down on your face and your prospects are going to be more at the end of the call, excited about potentially working with you in the future, because you've not just got your pitch in a traditional sales scenario and just trying to ram it down there and then again, [inaudible 00:37:00] pivot, not a good fit. Do you feel there's something to that, the kind of psychology of some of this?
Troy Sandidge:
Oh, I agree. I mean, let's take it like this. You go in any course whatsoever, sure, and this may be a slightly different approach, but I speak in analogies all the time to help people who may not understand that the core concepts of things is pass or fail.
Troy Sandidge:
A lot of times we'll come into a sales call, we've got to get the bag, we've got to get the yes, we've got to get the confirmation or we don't, and this was a waste of my time. Versus, every time that I spend with someone, I win something. I either win the contract.
Troy Sandidge:
I win to go to the next round in the conversation or I win a new advocate who's going to open the door for places I can't get in, or my team couldn't get in before just off their recommendation because I switched the conversation and identified, this is no longer a buyer, where do I shift on next into the conversation?
Troy Sandidge:
And if by the end, maybe they appreciate the way that I approach it, now they're back in the conversation as a buyer. Instead of going pass or fail, I just want to go at grade level. Obviously I want to get the A, but C is passing too.
Troy Sandidge:
And if I'm getting a D, at least I'm aware of, here's some things I need to modify. Maybe it's anomaly, maybe it's the specific industry, maybe it's the certain title or certain person I was talking to, but why? Versus just pass or fail, I get the bag or I don't, I get the seller or I don't, that takes the pressure off of psychologically too.
Troy Sandidge:
Because like you said, we're coming into the conversation now. We don't lose. And now I don't know, what situation being a sales person where you don't feel like you don't take an out? You feel like you're always taking an out, but if I can come into a situation where okay, that I didn't get the sale, but it's not like I can't get a sale through this conversation, through this connection. That's a different mindset.
Troy Sandidge:
And I think that's very beneficial when we're dealing with building community instead of just going at it gun to hole, like a sharp shooter here, trying to win all by yourself. Let me evangelise and get you to join my team.
Troy Sandidge:
If I can have 10 calls that they told me no, that they're not a direct buyer, but they, over the span of the year, can each person give me 10 new buyers, I think that's a win too. It's a longer game. It's not an immediate gratification, but in a long grand scheme of things, we go back to the whole calendar year, the numbers look really good.
Will Barron:
Yeah. And some of this is a sales leadership issue of quarterly targets and the goals resetting and goal post changing. But some of that will change. And we see that in the marketplace change over time as a lot more products move to subscriptions.
Will Barron:
So just getting those numbers done, that's not as important as a good customer success and keeping people on those subscriptions and retaining them for longer periods of time. So we're slowly, slowly dragging sales out of the dark ages and following in your marketing footsteps, Troy.
Parting Thoughts · [39:52]
Will Barron:
With that mate, we've covered a lot of ground here. I appreciate you, appreciate you coming on the show. Tell us where we can find out more about you, tell us about the podcast and where we can find that, and then the book as well.
Troy Sandidge:
Just like Will, I'm also on the HubSpot Podcast Network. iDigress all in one word, I know I got all weird with the spelling. iDigress.fm. I talk on concepts, I talk about marketing strategy growth, a little bit of sales, but I come from the perspective of, I want bring access to people who are in SMBs or are emerging brands who don't have the time or the team to know all the acronyms, to know the depth of marketing and growth in sales and business.
Troy Sandidge:
And so I try to make things as simple as possible in that range. So if this lands in some way, shape or form, when you want to activate your mindset, you want to amplify your marketing and you want to achieve more profitability and very core simple concepts, my podcast would be really good for you.
Troy Sandidge:
It's also why I wrote the book, Strategize Up as well, to help people really make it simple, make it practical, and make it sustainable in their business growth.
Will Barron:
Amazing stuff. Well, I'll link to all of that in the show of this episode over at salesman.org and with that, Troy, I want to thank you again for joining us on the Salesman Podcast.
From Sales Trainer To Crypto Billionaire… Kinda
Feb 10, 2022
On this week in sales we’ll be looking at –
The crypto BILLIONAIRE I inadvertently had on the Salesman Podcast…
New LinkedIn Sales Navigator updates
The labor shortage
You'll learn:
SALES NEWS:
Alleged crypto launderer Heather Morgan led a second life as the world's worst rapper
Earlier today, the Department of Justice announced the arrest of Ilya Lichtenstein and Heather Morgan, who allegedly attempted to launder more than 25,000 Bitcoins that were stolen as part of the 2016 hack of Hong Kong-based cryptocurrency exchange Bitfinex. What was unclear to us at the time was that an even greater crime had played out across Morgan's social media pages: her rap career.
Heather previously ran https://www.salesfolk.com/ where she helped B2B sales professionals write better outreach emails.
LinkedIn Rolls Out Sales Navigator Search & CRM Card Updates
LinkedIn Sales Solutions announced a slate of updates to the Sales Navigator platform today, including improvements to the Search experience, CRM integrations, and new homepage optimizations.
The first update comes in the form of better visualization in the Search experience.
Enhanced CRM cards is another update to the CRM integration. These enhanced CRM cards are added to Account Pages and Contact pages, minimizing the need to toggle between platforms.
With the Priority Accounts section, you are able to upload accounts that are most important to your business. For example, with so many people shuffling companies or professions, you’re able to keep tabs on when employee or headcount growth.
What Labor Shortage? Technology-Enabled Sales Teams Don’t Miss a Beat
A large portion of veteran sales talent is deciding now is a good time to retire. Implementing tech that reduces redundant work and delivers relevant insights is key to achieving growth.
For the fourth quarter of 2021, 65% of business economists reported an increase in sales, but 57% reported experiencing labor shortages, according to the National Association for Business Economics January 2022 Business Conditions Survey.
In this market, sales leaders are thinking outside of the box for recruitment. They’re hiring more entry-level salespeople, as well as experienced individuals from other unrelated markets and verticals.
In-person meetings between customers and salespeople were once at the heart of B2B buying and selling. Now digital communication is embedding itself in every aspect of business. This had led some organizations to look at the future and ask a simple question: Will we still need salespeople?
Is It Time To Reassess the WFH and Hybrid Work Movement?
A portion of the workforce has unreservedly embraced the WFH movement, while others are looking for office environments to be more functional and enticing.
For many WFH employees, commuting hours have now been rolled into working hours; that means many WFH employees are putting in another 10 hours a week. The mental and physical exertion—combined with the relative isolation of home offices—is “taking a toll on people.
One answer is an activity-based working (ABW) approach. This means employees having access to a range of technology-enabled work environments to suit the particular activities in which they engage individually and as a team.
Why We'll Always Need Sales People | Salesman Podcast
Feb 08, 2022
Roland T. Rust is a distinguished University Professor, David Bruce Smith Chair in Marketing, and author of The Feelings Economy: How Artificial Intelligence Is Creating the Era of Empathy.
In this episode of the Salesman Podcast, Roland explains what the “feelings economy” is and why more artificial intelligence might be a good thing for sales professionals whilst it wrecks other industries.
You'll learn:
Sponsored by:
Free SalesCode assessment
Learn your strengths and weaknesses in an instant. Taken by over 10,000+ of your competitors. Don't get left behind.
Take the free assessment
Featured on this episode:
Host - Will Barron
Founder of Salesman.org
Guest - Roland T. Rust
Distinguished University Professor
Hi, my name is Will, and welcome to the Salesman Podcast. On today's episode, we'll be looking at selling with emotion in the feeling economy. Our guest, Roland Rust, is a distinguished university professor at the School of Business at the University of Maryland. He's the author of The Feeling Economy, which we're going to cover in this episode of the show. And with that, Roland, welcome to the Salesman Podcast.
Roland Rust:
Oh, thanks very much. Happy to be here.
What is the Feeling Economy? · [00:45]
Will Barron:
You are welcome, sir. I'm glad to have you on. I try not to cover it too much before on our pre-call, pre-recording chat, but I think we're on the same wave length with a lot of what we're going to talk about today. So it'll be interesting if there are any points that we do diverge, but I think we're all on the same wavelength with a lot of this. To get us started, this is seemingly a lazy question for an interviewer to ask, Roland, but I'm going to ask you it because I want you to set the scene here. What the heck is the feeling economy?
Roland Rust:
Yeah. Okay, very good question. The feeling economy is maybe an unexpected consequence of artificial intelligence, because there have really been a couple of main shifts in technology in the last 150 years. The first was the move toward the thinking economy from the physical economy. So in other words, you had people in the physical economy who were doing things like farming and mining coal and doing physical exertion, and men really dominated at that time. And then around 1900, you really started to see an expansion of the thinking economy, and one of the things that you saw was a very much larger percentage of people became educated, because they had to, to compete in the thinking economy as thinkers. During that time, then women became much more equal. You see many more women in high positions than you did in the 1800s or 1700s.
“The shift that's happening now is from the thinking economy to the feeling economy, and the reason for that is that artificial intelligence is getting good at thinking. And the more thinking artificial intelligence can do, the more humans are pushed into doing things that they can do better than AI. For the most part, that's things like feeling, interpersonal relationships, and to some extent, we're also going to have an advantage on things like common sense and intuition, but even that will probably go away in a little bit of time.” – Roland Rust · [02:05]
Roland Rust:
So now the shift that's happening now is from the thinking economy to the feeling economy, and the reason for that is that artificial intelligence is getting good at thinking, and the more thinking artificial intelligence can do, the more humans are pushed into doing things that they're better than AI at. For the most part, that's things like feeling. Feeling, interpersonal relationships, to some extent, for a while, we're going to have an advantage on things like common sense and intuition, but even that will probably go away in a little bit of time. So what our research suggests is that no later than 15 years from now, most jobs will be more feeling jobs than thinking jobs, and that shift is already well underway.
Why Humans Struggle Having Emotional Conversations With AI · [03:10]
Will Barron:
Immediately, I've lost all the questions I was going to ask, Roland. We'll drag it back for salespeople and business towards the end of the show. But a couple of things here. When you say salespeople are perhaps, people in general, salespeople in the context of this show, are perhaps better at emotional intelligence, feeling, empathy than AI right now, is that because AI literally can't do those things, or is it because when a human engages with an AI, they don't like that happening, they don't like that emotional kind of conversation happening? They prefer to do it with a human, and so it's a limitation of the person that's doing the engaging, or is it very literally that AI can't handle that from a technological standpoint at the moment?
Roland Rust:
Both of those things are true. Both of those things are true. One is people right now don't fully trust AI. They've seen the Terminator movies or whatever, and they just are a little bit concerned about AI and they don't really trust AI to really have our best interests in mind. So there is that problem, but the other problem is that AI really just isn't very good at it. AI is struggling. To do this right, what AI has to do is it has to understand people's emotional expressions and it has to then respond appropriately emotionally.
Roland Rust:
There is active research in both of these areas. So for example, one of the things that AI is getting a lot better at is trying to figure out people's emotional reactions from how they look, what their face looks like, what kind of expressions do they have on their face? AI is getting better at that, but it still isn't that good. It's not as good as a person doing this, and fortunately that'll be true for a little while.
AI and the Nuance of Emotional Expression · [05:06]
Will Barron:
Sorry to interrupt, Roland, just I think this point's really important. How tangible is this, how objective is this? Because I know when my girlfriend comes home from work and she's in a mood about something, I know there's something up, but I can't quantify it like perhaps a computer programme would want to, and it's trying to weigh different things up. I'm just getting a gut feeling that I want to be polite to her as she walks through the door. How much of this is down to, if you were trying to score this and I was trying to compete me against an AI, it would be very difficult to say who is better at this, so what's the barrier to this? Is it people's ability to recognise some of this stuff, or is it the objectivity of AI achieving a certain standard, that it becomes human-like?
Roland Rust:
Well, right now people can pick up the nuance of emotional expression a lot better than machines can. I mean, machines are picking up, if I have a big smile, they can pick up that's a smile or a really bad frown, they can pick up that. But there are nuances. For example, I might be pretending to smile.
Will Barron:
Sure.
“I believe that salespeople are in absolutely the right job. They could not be in a better job. They are working with interpersonal relationships and that's not going to go away easily in B2B. It may be easier to get rid of that in B2C. A lot of B2C is done online now, but a lot of B2B is too big and too important to be done online, and so people in B2B sales are absolutely in the right place.” – Roland Rust · [06:50]
Roland Rust:
I might be actually very upset. “Say, that was really nice of you to park in front of my driveway so I couldn't get in.” That little nuance would be picked up by my wife very, very easily, but machine is going to have a really lot harder time. Now, one thing I would say, I know that you're really talking to salespeople more than anybody else. I want to tell the salespeople that they're in absolutely the right job. They could not be in a better job. That they are working with interpersonal relationships, and especially that's not going to go away easily in B2B. It may be easier to get rid of that in B2C. A lot of B2C is done online now, but a lot of B2B is too big and too important to be done online, and so people in B2B sales are absolutely in the right place.
Roland Rust:
If I had to suggest a career path for a salesperson in B2B, I would say there are two possible career paths that would both be very good. One, stay a salesperson in B2B and be really good at it. That's one career path. And then the other career path is become a sales manager, because the sales managers are also going to be in demand, and that's a job that can't easily perform by a machine.
Will We Ever Get Rid of Salespeople in The B2B Selling Environment? · [07:50]
Will Barron:
Will this ever change? And this is more like a thought experiment than something that I can practically see in the real world, but I've talked about this before on the show, Roland, it seems like a lot of B2B deals could be done by, and you're the perfect person to ask this to, an AI like API and it plugs into the seller API and it plugs into the buyers API, and the AI looks at the data of the buyer and says, “Oh, well, perhaps we can help with this. We can bridge this, we can provide this,” and then they go, “Well, okay, here's a fair transaction,” the deal's done instantly and the salespeople are wiped off the face of the planet. Is that something that is plausible to happen, or is there so many moving parts in that, that it'd be too difficult?
“If you're wanting to, for example, sell a bunch of jet fighters to the federal government, I guarantee you're not going to do that on an API system. So the bigger and more complicated the deal is, then the more people are going to be involved. I don't see salespeople in those arenas going away anytime soon.” – Roland Rust · [08:45]
Roland Rust:
Yeah. I mean, we already have that. I mean, there are many, many companies that are connected that way, but typically it's for more routine things. If you're wanting to, for example, sell a bunch of jet fighters to the federal government, I guarantee you're not going to do that on that API system.
Will Barron:
Sure.
Roland Rust:
So the bigger and more complicated the deal is, or the more it's not routine, then the more people are going to be involved. I don't see that going away anytime soon. There are a lot of big, important deals being done.
How to Future-Proof Yourself Against the AI Takeover · [09:10]
Will Barron:
What can salespeople do to future-proof themselves other than, just get a better at sales is quite generic, right? What can we learn, do, be, have that would be very difficult to replicate by the AI that inevitably is coming for all of us at some point, right?
“AI is coming for all of us, I'm sorry to say. It's really something that is going to get us eventually, but we can hold it off to some degree. So one way to hold it off is to get good at teaming up with AI. Because what's going to be happening is AI is going to be doing the thinking part of the work and the humans are going to be doing the feeling and interpersonal part of the work. Salespeople don't have to be machine learning experts, but the salespeople need to be good enough to be able to team up with AI because that's what the managers are looking for.” – Roland Rust · [09:34]
Roland Rust:
They are coming for all us, I'm sorry to say. It's really something that is going to get us eventually, but we can hold it off to some degree. So one way to hold it off is to get good at teaming up with AI, because for a long time, what's going to be happening is AI is going to be doing the thinking part of the work and the humans are going to be doing the feeling and interpersonal part of the work. Salespeople, they don't have to be machine learning experts, but the salespeople need to be good enough to be able to team up with AI, because that's what the managers are looking for.
Roland Rust:
They don't care who does the job. They don't care whether AI does the job or the human does the job. They could care less. What they care about is the job getting done. So what's happening now is that AI is getting better at certain parts of the job, and so humans need to not be threatened by that, need to just accept AI as a teammate. That's the way I like to think about it, as a teammate, and try to be a good teammate for AI, just like AI is trying to be a good teammate for the human.
How to Incorporate AI Into Your Daily Sales Activities · [10:50]
Will Barron:
And let's go back to basics, just for someone who perhaps isn't familiar when we talk about AI and the thinking side of business, and perhaps even life in a wider context, Roland. What is AI good at? What should we proactively be letting AI replace in our workday so that we can become more effective and leverage the tools that we have that will make the biggest difference?
Roland Rust:
Well, the thought for a long time was that really all AI could do was the very routine sorts of monotonous tasks that were done over and over and over again. And so the thinking was, “Well, as long as you have a good STEM job, you're okay.” But of course, that's not true anymore. Actually, the STEM job people are in much more risk than the salespeople, because the salespeople are in a feeling economy job, and a lot of those STEM jobs are going to be taken over by AI.
Will Barron:
So the regular audience will know, I forgive you for not knowing this, Roland, but I've got a degree chemistry. My dissertation was in computational chemistry, part published elsewhere in journals and that, but what we were doing was trying to take the lab work out of the lab and give such proactive and effective modelling in the chemical environment, and it was just computing power that was holding us back from going for larger proteins and interactions. We were stuck with hydrogen vibrating, bouncing off over hydrogens and doing analytics and simulations based on that. But at some point, we're going to have the computational power to not have to use a lab. At some point, you're going to be able to put a problem into a computer, my brother's an analytical chemist, and at some point you're going to be able to put these problems into a computer and go, “Hey, we need this outcome, run a billion different calculations and different simulations and work out something that we can then verify in experimental form.”
Will Barron:
And so I think it's actually really exciting and really empowering for the audience to hear you say, Roland, that all of these nerds, which is me in a prior life, who are on their high horses doing all this lab research, looking down on us knuckle-dragging salespeople, we're the ones with the potential career and the job security there. That's a weird dynamic that I know the audience haven't heard anywhere else.
The AI Takeover of STEM-Related Fields · [13:30]
Roland Rust:
Yeah, that's true. And it's interesting what you were talking about, about modelling things with chemistry. In the broader sense, it's called a digital twin. You create a computer model of what it is you're trying to model, and of course the computer model that models the thing that you're trying to model has to be much bigger than the thing you're trying to model, but that's been done for computer systems for many years. They build these little computers inside these huge mainframes and treat them as a digital twin. But now the digital twin idea is going much further. We're modelling more complex systems using these techniques, and that gives us a lot more insight than we used to have. So some of the things that used to be impossible to work out are now being able to be worked out, which means that people had better concentrate on the feeling side of things and not try to I'll think that.
Will Barron:
So you mentioned right at the top of the show this progression through the centuries and there being limited real crux points where the industry as a whole changes dramatically and massively, and as you pointed out there, and I think you purposefully did this, because this be an interested talking point for us, women, females are becoming, via the industry changing and technology changing, are becoming more, via… I feel bad as I say this, right? I'm trying to be politically correct when we're having a scientific discussion here, so I don't know why I'm overthinking the words that I'm saying, Roland. Just to throw it out there for the audience, as they hear me stuttering as I try and say this.
Women, Emotional Intelligence and the Future of AI · [15:05]
Will Barron:
I'll just be blunt about it. Are we going to move into a position where women typically, stereotypically, data led shows that they have perhaps a higher percentage chance of having more emotional intelligence, having more empathy, are women that fit these categories going to come into their own in this modern world of sales, where we're going to partner up with AI, where some of the thinking, more male aspect roles stereotypes… You can clear this up in a second as I finished this terrible question, but are we getting to a point where the traits that women typically have or lean into more are going to be beneficial, versus us grunting men who've dominated the sales industry over the decades and decades that have come prior?
Roland Rust:
Yeah, I think a lot of the fact that you still have men having an advantage in certain kinds of sales are really more a matter of inertia. That it's kind of a holdover from the 1950s and 60s world, where the men were the breadwinners and the women stayed at home and raised the kids. But the fact that the women traditionally over many, many millennia have been the ones that stayed home and took care of the kids actually give women a tremendous advantage in the feeling economy, because that nurturing and that empathy that's natural to them, even to a greater degree than men on average, will serve them really well. This is going to be a great time for women. Women should-
Why Women Will dominate the Feelings Economy · [16:47]
Will Barron:
Is this change happening now, Roland, or is this something that is a iceberg, slow glacial moving? Because there's many pieces to this puzzle, of access to jobs, biases perhaps, maybe, maybe not biases in companies and employment and that kind of thing. Is this something that there's data on now, that the gap has changed, equaled, performance has changed within the marketplace? Or is this something that-
Roland Rust:
Yeah, we can really see this happening. We can measure it. We've done a lot of examination of US government data, for example, and based on that, we have current research that's basically showing the degree to which women gained an advantage from the feeling economy and what kinds of jobs they're getting a greater advantage in. But we see this all over society, not just in business, not just in sales. If you can just take a look at the number of countries that have women leaders, that's a much greater number than it used to be. It used to be unless you were a queen, and you were a queen because the king, your father had you, but now people are electing women leaders. I mean, certainly Angela Merkel was an extremely powerful woman, but there are many, many women leaders around the world, much more than before.
Roland Rust:
And in fact, if you take a look at the countries that have women leaders, their economic situation is better on average by far than the average country. I think that the reason for that is that the economies that tend to be the most advanced are also the ones that women can be the best at, because they're the ones, they're the economies that are closest to the feeling economy today.
How Women Can Make The Most of Their Innate Traits to Compete in the Current Sales Environment · [18:47]
Will Barron:
What can the women now, forget us blokes for a second, what can they do to make the most of any innate traits that they have, whether it be emotional intelligence, empathy, whatever it is? What do they need to lean into, to not necessarily outcompete men, but outcompete the current marketplace?
Roland Rust:
I think that women have the ability now to stop trying to be men. That sounds weird, I think, but I mean women have tried in the past to emulate the people that they've seen that have been successful around them, and that's typically been men. And so you find women trying to be more masculine, trying to hide their feminine side. You saw that with Hillary Clinton running for President of the United States. I mean, from all indications, she's a very warm person to the people around her, but at the same time, when she was trying to be a politician, she really covered that up. Same thing with Margaret Thatcher in England. Margaret Thatcher really tried to change her voice. She made her voice deeper, so that she would sound more serious and more masculine. That's something that we're going to see for a while, but it's going to go away, because women really benefit from being more feminine in today's feeling economy.
Feminine Traits in the Feeling Economy · [20:20]
Will Barron:
Is it that they benefit from being more feminine? I'm sure there's an element to that. How much of it is that they benefit from just being authentic and congruent as well on top of all this?
Roland Rust:
Well, when I'm saying that they're going to be better or they're going to be more feminine, I really mean that they're going to be more nurturing, they're going to be more empathetic. They're going to have more sensitivity toward the others that they're working with. These are feminine traits and they're very, very timely.
Roland Reveals the Things Men Can Do to Stay Relevant in the Feelings Economy · [21:03]
Will Barron:
I know, and we're talking in broad strokes here, what can men do? Say like, and this is not me, say like I was super masculine man, I've just got testosterone squirting out my eyeballs, I'm super assertive, and sometimes that can help the sales process when you know you can really help someone and they've got their own baggage or stress or issues, and you just need to nudge them over the finish line of a deal perhaps. Assertiveness can help in certain selling situations. But perhaps I'm overassertive, Roland, I'm verging on the point of being a bit of a pain in the ass with my customers, but I get the deal done. I'm an ex-athlete, yada, yada, all the stereotypes. What can I do as this hyper masculinized ridiculous man that doesn't exist to lean into the future of the feeling economy and to have success there?
Roland Rust:
I guess there are a couple of, I'll talk about a couple of extremes of what men can be like, and then talk about each one, because I think depending upon what kind of for person the man is, he would need to do different things. So for example, if somebody's just a hyper masculine sort of person, then I think the thing to recognise is that there's probably going to be some retraining needed, and the retraining would be to try to build up the empathetic ability, build up the people skills, build up the emotional IQ. Sometimes if somebody's not coming to that naturally, then they need retraining. One thing that the universities are going to have to get good at is bringing thinking economy people in, such as for example the hyper masculine people, and try to make them understand and appreciate the emotional intelligence part. So I think that it's a retraining for them.
Roland Rust:
Now, there's another set of people, and the other set of people are the men who are perhaps very sensitive to begin with. I feel as though I fit into that category. I've written poetry and done music and things like that, and I feel as though sometimes on the job, I need to kind of hide that, or have felt that in the past. Now, at this point, realising what's happening in the economy, I'm trying to let that part back out again, because I realise that's a very useful part in today's economy. That if I'm more sensitive and more empathetic, that makes me more effective. So I'm trying to stop hiding the feminine part, if you will, of my myself and allow that to come out, because that is going to be very helpful and make me more effective.
Is Emotional Intelligence a Learnable Skill? · [24:00]
Will Barron:
Sure. Are things like emotional intelligence, I don't know, it seems like they should be, but I don't know if there's any science data on this, are these learnable skills? Sure, there's maybe some genetic elements to this, maybe there's a nature-nurture argument to some of this as well, and as you're describing there, this idea of masculine traits, feminine traits is a massive sliding scale, and depending on multiple factors, we all end up one place or another. But are these traits that are going to be valuable in this feeling economy, such as emotional intelligence, be able to have an empathetic conversation with someone, are these learnable traits or are these innate and hardwired?
Roland Rust:
Well, I believe they are learnable traits. I mean, a lot of this stuff has been taught in management courses for years. So I think it is learnable, but I think we're not used to thinking about feeling skills as being something that's part of formal education, but maybe we need to change the way we think about that.
AI is Much Broader Than Machine Learning · [25:03]
Will Barron:
Okay. Final question for you, Roland, before we wrap up, I'm going to ask you to share a little bit about the book in a second as well, and that is, and I always ask, because we talk about AI regularly on the show. Typically, within the context of this podcast, people say AI, what they mean is machine learning, right? They mean, we are going to jump in our CRM system, we're going to type in a potential customer's name, the company's name, and the AI/machine learning is going to say, “Oh, there's a trigger event. Someone just left this organisation, this just happened, that happened, and it says we should call them in three weeks from now, because statistically, that's a good time to get in touch.” So I've got a bit of a bee in my bonnet with all these sales technology companies who say AI, when clearly we have different definitions of these things, but with that same point.
Roland Rust:
I think that it's important to recognise that AI is broader than just machine learning.
Will Barron:
Yep.
Roland Rust:
Machine learning is the thing that has made AI extremely popular today, because it's been shown that it can do very well with prediction. So you have that, but I mean, these CRM systems that you're talking about, they're AI. They're AI, they're just not machine learning in that sense.
The Difference Between AI and Machine Learning · [26:14]
Will Barron:
What's the difference? Just so I'm clear, so I can have more informed conversations on this. Is there a definition of what AI is in the context of machine learning? Even better in the context of a CRM or something, if you're familiar with Einstein from Salesforce, or Oracle's different AIs.
Roland Rust:
Yeah, and I've done CRM systems myself.
Will Barron:
Perfect.
“I think of AI as being anything that uses computing machinery to emulate or do better than what people are doing in their thinking. So, the CRM system would definitely be AI in that definition, and I don't see anything wrong with that. Machine learning, in the end, I think is going to be shown to be limited. I think that it's probably limited to predictive ability.” – Roland Rust · [26:41]
Roland Rust:
So I know about that, and I think of AI as being anything that uses computing machinery to emulate or do better than what people are doing in their thinking. So, the CRM system would definitely be AI in that definition, and I don't see anything wrong with that. We don't need to limit ourselves to machine learning, and in fact I think that's a mistake. Machine learning, in the end, I think is going to be shown to be limited. I think that it's probably limited to predictive ability.
Will Barron:
Sure.
Roland Rust:
Aside from that, I think we need to have perhaps different approaches. For example, one approach I use is Bayesian learning models. That is a statistical approach really, it's not using the neural network approach at all, but that is just as much AI as anything else. It's just a different way of doing AI.
How Long Before We Start Living in an AI Dominated World? · [27:43]
Will Barron:
Sure, okay. Well, we'll wrap up with this, Roland, my final question, and obviously no one knows the answer to this to the date, to the year, but how far are we away from there being an AI and maybe this gets replicated and scaled, that can do… I don't know, like for example, you can ask it to do admin tasks and it'll just go off and do them and you'll have your spread sheet back with your expenses and your mileage, and all this kind of stuff that everybody hates doing. It's a waste of time, but typically humans do it because, in my experience, some of the tools that are out there, they need double checking by humans anyway, so a lot of people will just go, “Well, I'll just get it done,” but it's a bad use of their time.
Will Barron:
How far away are we from that kind of AI, where we can verbally tell it something, perhaps it looks at us and reads a little bit of our emotions as whether we're demanding it's done right now or whether it can be done next week, or whatever it is, and then it goes and does perhaps an admin-esque task?
Roland Rust:
The answer to your question I think is it's going to be quicker than you think, because what you're really talking about here is common sense and general intelligence.
Will Barron:
Sure.
“According to our analysis, the feeling tasks will be more important than the thinking tasks by about 2035. That's on average. And the reason for that is that AI is going to be better and better at common sense and general intelligence to the point where really what's going to be left is the very human part of how we deal with other people. That's going to be our greatest advantage over AI. Now, I think if you go out, let's say 30 years ahead, I think AI would be better than us at everything.” – Roland Rust · [28:58]
Roland Rust:
And it'll take decades I think for that to really come about, but according to our analysis, the feeling tasks will be more important than the thinking tasks by about 2035. That's on average. That is a huge difference, and the reason for that is that AI is going to be better and better at common sense, and better and better at general intelligence, to the point where really what's going to be left is the very human people part, of how do we deal with other people? That's going to be where our greatest advantage is over AI. Now, I think if you go out, let's say 30 years instead of 15, go out 30, 35 years, I think AI would be better than us at everything.
The AI Takeover is Coming. Brace Yourself · [29:45]
Will Barron:
Well, that was what I was going to ask you. Roland, when are we just obsolete? Surely this is something that you ponder on after a few pints or a few whiskeys on a Friday evening, and we're going totally off context here, and we'll wrap up with this, but when do we just become just pointless, we're just these meat sacks that are not needed for AI to do its thing?
Roland Rust:
I think 30 or 40 years.
Will Barron:
Wow.
Roland Rust:
And that's what Ray Kurzweil calls the singularity. It's where AI just becomes better than us at everything. My best guess would be 30 or 40 years for that, and those of you who are going to be alive 30, 40 years from now, good luck.
Parting Thoughts · [30:30]
Will Barron:
Well, we'll wrap up with that bombshell, Roland. With that, mate, tell us where we can find out more about the book, The Feeling Economy, where we can buy it, and then where we can find out more about yourself as well, sir.
Roland Rust:
Yes, okay. The book, The Feeling Economy, which is coauthored by Ming-Hui Huang, who is my longtime collaborator and wife, that can be found on Amazon. Just type in The Feeling Economy on Amazon and you'll be able to find it easily. And if you want to contact me, I'm happy to be contacted. Just Google Roland Rust, and I will come up, I guarantee.
Will Barron:
Amazing stuff. Well, I'll link to the book, everything else that we talked about, and a few articles if people want to read close into this topic, because it's top of mind for me with all the sales technology and everything that's going on in our space at the moment. I'll link all that in the show notes to this episode, over at salesman.org. And with that, Roland, I want to thank you for your time, your expertise, putting up with some terrible questions from me, which you gave great answers to, which are valuable for the audience. I want to thank you again for joining us on the Salesman Podcast.
How To Listen (And Instantly Improve Your Sales Prospecting) | Salesman Podcast
Feb 01, 2022
Michael Reddington is a certified forensic interviewer and the president of InQuasive Inc., where he uses his background in forensics and understanding of human behavior to teach businesses how to use the truth to their advantage.
On this episode of the Salesman Podcast, Michael explains the 6-levels of listening and how they’ll improve your prospecting, discovery and sales calls.
You'll learn:
Sponsored by:
Free SalesCode assessment
Learn your strengths and weaknesses in an instant. Taken by over 10,000+ of your competitors. Don't get left behind.
Take the free assessment
Featured on this episode:
Host - Will Barron
Founder of Salesman.org
Guest - Michael Reddington
Certified Forensic Interviewer
Welcome to the Salesman podcast. My name is will, and on today's episode, we're looking at the six levels of listening and how they're going to help you improve the performance of your prospecting discovery and sales calls with buyers. Today's guest is Michael Reddington, his certified forensic interview. He's got a book coming out in the not too distant future, The Disciplined Listening Method. You can find out more about Michael at InQuasive.com. And with that, Michael, welcome back again to the show.
Michael Reddington:
It is great to be here again, Will, thank you so much for having me.
Will Barron:
You're welcome. I'm glad to have you back on me. Is this the third time you've been on the show?
Michael Reddington:
It is, yes. I'm afraid to admit it, because you're going to cap me off, I don't want to stop myself from maybe getting invited back after, but yes, it's the third time.
Are Salespeople Born with the Ability to Really Listen to Prospects and Buyers? · [00:59]
Will Barron:
Good man. Well, maybe there's like five or six people have come on three or four times a year. You're in a select group there and it's because of my fan of you and your work, mate. We're going to dive into the six levels of listening. We'll see if we can get through all six. If we don't, that's fine, we'll have you back on in the future to dive into them, but let's start with this, mate. Are we born with the ability, sales people specifically, are born with the ability to really, really listen to our prospects so that we can help them or is this a skill that we need to learn?
Michael Reddington:
I'm going to walk the fence a little bit. My official answer is it's a skill we need to learn. My unofficial answer is it is something we're born with, it's something that we typically stray away from. So if I was bold enough, which I guess I have to be, to take us all the way back to being infants, we literally have to be astute observers to everything going on around us, especially with Mommy and Daddy, to understand what they're thinking, what they're feeling. I have a four year old son. So he's right on track to developing his theory of mind, which is essentially understanding what people around us are thinking or feeling at any time, and just over the last couple of months, he started asking, “Daddy, are you mad at me?” which is a funny question to answer to my four year old because I might be, but I don't want to make this situation any worse.
Michael Reddington:
So I would contend that, especially as young children, yeah, we have this real curiosity, this real interdependence, we're very much in tune, but then as we grow up and we get distracted and develop our own thought processes and assumptions and such, then it becomes less of a skill that we really focus on.
“Listening is something that we have to intentionally work to develop because so many of our sales conversations involve some level of stress. And as stress mounts, we tend to go to what we know, and generally in the sales profession, what we know best is ourselves, our product, our service. So if I feel like I'm under the gun, the best thing to do is to feel comfortable talking about me and what I'm selling and not listening, which comes back to backfire.” – Michael Reddington · [02:24]
Michael Reddington:
So that would lead me to my final answer if you will, that yes, especially in the sales profession, it is something in that we have to intentionally work to develop because so many of the conversations we have involve some level of stress. They should and as stress mounts, we tend to go to what we know, and generally in the sales profession, what do we know best? Ourselves, our product, our service. So if I feel like I'm under the gun, the best thing to do is to feel comfortable talking about me and what I'm selling and not listening, which comes back to backfire.
The Key Identifiers of a Healthy Sales Call · [02:52]
Will Barron:
Is the goal then to develop a skillset or a series, which we'll talk in a second, of skills to listen better, or is it to be just so relaxed during a sales call? I don't know what you take, do, have, or be to be relaxed in a sales call, but to reduce all the stress from it? Should a healthy sales call have a healthy level of, maybe not stress, but energy on the call itself?
Michael Reddington:
Several questions in there. Try to work my way backwards. Yes, I think a sales call should have some energy. Passion can be a double edged sword, so we've got to be a little bit careful communicating our passion to too strong a degree, maybe with an audience that isn't quite there can be a little bit overbearing, overpowering, can push them away, but people often interpret passion for conviction and for knowledge and expertise. So having some passion and energy there certainly is important.
“Confidence comes from three places: having experience, being prepared, and surviving mistakes. So the more mistakes we live through, the more relaxed we can be in future situations, because the brain will be like, “I've been through this before. I can get myself out of it again.” – Michael Reddington · [03:54]
Michael Reddington:
I do think being relaxed on the call helps and I'm a firm believer that often our confidence… Well, really confidence comes from three places. Having experience, which often we only get that the hard way, being prepared and surviving mistakes, which I think is an interesting subset of experience. So the more mistakes we live through, the more relaxed we can be in future situations, because, “I've been through this before. I can get myself out of it again.” But even on that prepared side, yes, it is true that we're under stress, we go to what we know and that can be dangerous, my personal experience and opinion has been the better we know our stuff, the easier it is for us to apply it to somebody else's world.
Michael Reddington:
So if I'm just learning it and top of mind, and I'm worried about how do I convey it, I might be really tempted just to inadvertently force it on people. However, if I know it so well inside, out, upside down, backwards, the research behind it, the support, whatever it is, now I can engage in a conversation where I turn the keys over to somebody else. I let them lead the conversation because I'm not worried about what I'm going to tell them. I'm now listening for the perfect opportunity to fit what we're looking for into their world so it resonates at a much greater level. So the energy and stress should probably be there, we care about what we're doing, we're passionate. Really being completely confident to an in depth degree with our material allows us to let the conversation come to us instead of forcing it.
Michael Reddington:
And then I think that first piece was, do I think people should focus on developing a listening skillset? Yes, without a doubt. For me, a mechanism that I try to use, being biassed self or talking about myself, of course, is going into these conversations I try to ask myself, “What can this person teach me?” Because if I go into a conversation feeling like I'm the one with all the information to give, that can put me into a validate mentality as opposed to a learning mentality and really limit my opportunity to create these connections that we're looking for. So I literally at the top of my notes will write down, “What can I learn? or “What can he teach me?” to try to put me into that mindset before the call starts.
The Validation Mindset: What It Is and Why You Should Avoid It · [06:00]
Will Barron:
What do you mean by a validation mindset?
Michael Reddington:
When your a hammer everything looks like a nail. So we can call it confirmation bias if we want, but if I'm going to check the box mentality, if I can get someone to tell me that they're experiencing this pain or they have this opportunity or this financial need or this staff need or software need, then great, I got them where I want them. Now I'm not really listening, I'm trying to fit them into a box that I already have as fast as possible and I could be missing all kinds of other opportunities.
Michael Reddington:
We like to talk about listening for intelligence, as opposed to information. Listening to information can put us in that confirmation bias or that validation mentality where I'm looking for those three or four things that I'm predetermined to set somebody up for what I would like to sell them, but if I'm listening for intelligence, now I can pay attention to their tone of voice pauses, specific word choice. They might say some things that sound like throwaway statements about their day, their week, their weekend, their team, a call they just got off of, that could give me insight into another role to take, but if I'm just trying to fit them in that box, I'll never pick it up.
How to Listen for Intelligence During the Sales Qualification Process · [07:10]
Will Barron:
For sure. And to be clear, qualifying our customers is important, right, whether we're all using banned med pick medic, one of like the bazillion different qualification frameworks, but I hear what you're saying, I think I do, tell me if I'm wrong here because I'm trying my best to actively listen as we do this year, right? Just ticking the boxes is something that we need to do, because we're a professional and we just make sure that someone is a fit for what's going on, but that's that's layer one. Layer two is, “Hey, are they responding to these questions? Do they give us information freely? Are they enjoying this? Are they in emotional turmoil? They've given me all these qualification questions, but they're never going to close a deal with me today because they're obviously stressed and we should be perhaps rearranging the call for another time.” Can we describe this as perhaps level one listening and level two listening, which is the word people can really separate themselves as salespeople.
Michael Reddington:
Yeah, I think that is fair. The one thing I would say about qualification without disputing the necessity of the steps, is be careful not to do it with an exclusionary mindset. I've worked with a lot of sales professionals. I'm sure you have as well that when they talk about qualifying, “Are they a good fit for me? I don't want to waste my time.” So they literally, if they go in with that time focused mentality, “I don't want to waste my time.” If the goal is literally qualify them as quick as I can, one way or the other, and we could end up disqualifying candidates or prospects that might be an okay fit for what we're trying to sell or it might be a good fit for something else we have or maybe even somebody else in our network that allows us again to build a relationship and demonstrate value over time. So yes, qualify for sure. Just I would coach to not have such an exclusionary mindset or approach when we do.
Will Barron:
Sure. I think I'll challenge you slightly on that, but agree in principle. Where I was going to go with it was, in a wonderful world, we've all got big fat pipelines, unlimited people, we can spend time on the phone, we can get to know them, we can close them six months a year from now when things change, when budget align, when timing aligns. Unfortunately, most sales people live in world of, “I've got to get my number by the end of the month,” which is both bad sales targets for management being handed down, multiple other factors as well.
The Rigid Qualification Framework You Should Probably Stop Using · [09:25]
Will Barron:
So what you're saying is correct when we're doing [inaudible 00:09:28] rates, but I can just feel the audience going, “But, Mike, I've got to hit target and I've only got eight calls and I've only got so much time during the day and I've got to qualify them out.” Is there… how to describe this? Is that a mechanical process that salespeople need to rethink perhaps or is that just a mindset shift of, hey, you could qualify people hard, but don't miss important things that if you were listening more effectively, are there, which might counteract the very rigid qualification framework that we're probably using?
“Time is the enemy of empathy and time is the enemy of quality. If I'm thinking to myself, “This conversation has to be done in five minutes, I have to make eight calls. If this isn't going to work, I’ve got to hurry up and get to the next one,” I'm literally prioritising time over empathy, understanding, resonating with my audience and I'm prioritising time over the quality of the call.” – Michael Reddington · [10:15]
Michael Reddington:
Yeah. I think you just hit another nail right on the head. I probably need a new analogy now, this is the second time we've used that one, but yes. So it's about finding a bit of a balance and it's about making the best of the time that we have. So time is the enemy of empathy and time is the enemy of quality. If I'm thinking to myself, “This conversation has to be done in five minutes, I have to make eight calls. If this isn't going to work, I got to hurry up and get to the next one,” I'm literally prioritising time over empathy, understanding, resonating with my audience and I'm prioritising time over the quality of the call and it can be tough, especially in what we do because in some ways our calls are predicated on failure. There's a reasonable likelihood this isn't going to work, I'm going to try to figure that out as fast as possible. If it's going to, I'm in, if it's not, I'm onto the next.
Michael Reddington:
So it's finding that balance of how am I going to maximise the time that I have, really give every opportunity to suss out value in this conversation and if it's not there, cut bait and move on, but do that more from a value standpoint, as opposed to a time standpoint. I guess my personal belief is oftentimes time takes care of itself. Not always. We can run on forever, we can run on to people that, “Ooh, someone I can talk to today,” and they'll just talk our ear off, but generally speaking, if we have a good process in place, the time piece takes care of itself.
The Six Levels of Listening and Understanding · [11:38]
Will Barron:
Sure. That makes total sense. Okay. So we pitched the six levels of listening. We should probably get into, at some point of the show, since I've talked about it at the top, before we go down too of the many rabbit holes, Michael, do you want to run through perhaps the first one or two, and then I'll throw some questions at you and we'll see how many we can get through. We don't need to get through them all if we've don't have time.
Michael Reddington:
That's no problem. So with the six levels of listening, I'm assuming we're talking about Judy [Burnwell's 00:11:51] the HURIER model of the six levels of listening?
Will Barron:
Yeah.
Michael Reddington:
So the first two we have are hearing and understanding, and I think we could probably pause there just for a minute and talk about those two and section them off. I was, if you can believe this, sitting at a bar in Gainesville, Florida, if I remember correctly, when I was travelling and teaching years ago, and I sat next to a guy, who, we were talking, he was a nice guy and he said, “Hear me now, listen to me later.” And I thought that was an interesting way to put it, but it's a phrase that he used a lot to basically say, “Yeah, get what I'm saying now, but put some time into it, think about this later and think about what it really means.”
Michael Reddington:
So I would argue that hearing and either listening or observing are two different things because we can hear the sounds that people are making, but are we really paying attention to the nonverbal cues, the tone of voice, the speed of delivery, the word choice? And one of my absolute favourite things to listen to is does somebody start to say a word, cut themselves off and then change it to another word because if they do that, there's a strong likelihood they're engaging in some impression management activity. The word they we're going to use is more than likely representative of how they're really feeling in the moment, the word they switch to is the word that reflects the feeling or the impression they want us to have. So if somebody starts to say, “Well…” Now, I'm trying to do one off the top of my head. I should have planned this out in the advance. But if someone was trying to say something along the lines of, “We're all on boar-…. We're going to take some time and talk through this.” Well, they're not all on board. So understanding what somebody is really thinking versus what they're telling us can be really important.
Michael Reddington:
So yes, hearing it is important and being focused in limiting distractions and all those basic attentive or active listening skills that we've been taught forever are important, but just hearing the message isn't enough. Understanding is really where, we talked a little bit before, emotional intelligence comes into play, contextual or situational awareness. What is this message likely indicative of? What's the totality of their delivery? What can I assume from their intentions or motivations or fears? Who else is in the room? What might be going on? Really understanding the totality of the message would be that next level up from hearing and I'll certainly pause for you to jump in.
Situational Awareness in Sales · [14:22]
Will Barron:
How do we develop this? Clearly your book when it comes out in the not too distant future, is your part of the experience here, right? Clearly. I'll give an opportunity to talk about the book at the end of the show, but is this experience, is this Will and Michael are going to be 80 and we're going to look back at all the mistakes we made in our 20s, 30s, 40s, and go, “Oh, that was because it was there, but I didn't see it,” or is this a skill that we develop of there's a checklist of things that we need to look out for, and then those things directly correspond to a certain result or thinking pattern in the person that we're engaging with?
Michael Reddington:
Another great question. By the way, I look forward to having a beer with you when we're 80 and looking back and having that conversation.
Will Barron:
You'll to show. There will be some kind of weird virtual show that's just like beamed into people foreheads in like 40 years, 50 years from now.
Michael Reddington:
Who knows what it'll look like by then. An interesting piece of research that I discovered writing the book, I focused a lot on situational awareness because I think that really touches on what you're saying, understanding everything that's in play around us, just besides what I want to say and what I want them to say, and I really honed in on research done by a woman named Mica, if I'm pronouncing her name correctly, Mikey or Mica Endsley here in the United States, who was with the Air Force for many years. And she did a lot of situational awareness research, specifically with fighter pilots. And one of the things that she found was the majority of errors that fighter pilots make were involved with recognising all the relevant information when it was available. So everything that they needed to make the right decision was there, they just didn't see it, so they made a decision that they shouldn't have.
Michael Reddington:
So when we think about correlating that to us, oftentimes in the sales conversation, it's the same. So yes, experience of course is helpful because the more we're involved in a situation, the more it becomes familiar. Our subconscious mental Rolodex does a better job at identifying when something is familiar, out of place, we've been here before, but really it's a decision. It's a decision to be aware that starts with understanding the goals we want to achieve.
Michael Reddington:
So one of the things that we go through with the folks that we work with, which typically annoys them to death, is we'll break down their sales process step by step and it can be familiar, prospecting to setting the introductory meeting, qualifying, to discovery, to a demo, to post demo conversation, to sign the deal and now we're all friends forever doing business together, and through each one of those levels, okay, what's your strategic goal? What's your strategic goal? What's your strategic goal? And 99 times out of 100 their strategic goal is to get to the next level, when in in reality from hello, their strategic goal should be, how do I interact with this individual to eventually turn them into my best sales professional, my best sales advocate?
Michael Reddington:
So if we reframe what our goal is, now we look for different cues, we listen for different opportunities, our situational awareness expands, whereas if I'm just trying to qualify somebody, do they fit, while that's a necessary step, I could be missing some additional intelligence. If I'm just trying to get the demo scheduled and they could say, “Yeah, shoot me an email and we'll see if we can get it on the books.” I can hang up the phone thinking, “Awesome, I just got the demo.” Probably not. Whereas if they say, “Absolutely, I'm very interested in learning more about this, please let me know what times work best for you next Wednesday or Thursday.” Now I'm far more likely to have the demo.
Michael Reddington:
So in setting the proper goals to really frame our perspective, making the decision to stay aware and consistently questioning and checking what we're experiencing versus we want to achieve can really help elevate that.
The Observable Cues will Always Be There. You Just Have to Spot Them · [18:49]
Will Barron:
All the signs, whether this be verbal, nonverbal, literally what people are saying, the buildup to the meeting, were they on time? Are they dressed professionally? Things like that I tend to find, when we do our sales calls or or sales org for our training programme, if someone shows up 10 minutes late to the call, and I'm just about to leave the call and it's your corporate client we're selling our training product, they're just not interested, right? The, the deal can basically just be ended there. We'd follow up with them in six months, send them some literature, see if things change. So I find that even leading up to the conversation there's clues as to the outcome of things.
Will Barron:
This is a bit of a weird question, but are those things there and our brains are just so narrowly focused that we don't see them as in we need to expand what we're physically looking for or are our brains just not capable of seeing everything that's there at the time, and so we need to go, “Okay, I'm going to now check in on Michael's body language. I'm going to now check in on this. I'm going to now make a mental note of that and this,” and we need to constantly task switch to keep on top of this? Is this something that just happens and maybe it's a gut feeling that we get at the end of all of this, as opposed to something that is more tangible or is this something that we need to go, “Okay, check in here, check this one, two, three,” and go through a checklist in our brains as we're trying to communicate with someone,
“Gut feelings are good, listen to them. Gut feelings are typically our subconscious brain saying, “Hang on, we've seen this movie before,” and maybe consciously we can't pinpoint exactly where that came from, but we should be listening to our gut feelings for sure.” – Michael Reddington · [19:37]
Michael Reddington:
First, gut feelings are good, listen to them. Gut feelings are typically our subconscious brain saying, “Hang on, we've seen this movie before,” and maybe consciously we can't pinpoint exactly where that came from, but we should be listening to our gut feelings for sure. My biassed opinion is I think it would be too bold to say that all of the information we need is there. All of these observable cues and hints are always there. Some people are harder to read than others. Their emotions can conflict and shift throughout. So to say that they're all there would be too bold a statement. I would contend that quite often, many to most of them are there, and usually we miss them because we're either distracted, we're looking for the wrong things, or we don't know what to look for. And when it comes back to distraction, the single biggest distraction we typically run into is our own internal monologue.
“The single biggest distraction we typically run into is our own internal monologue. You can't possibly have anything more important to say to me than I have to say to myself, and the same is true if we reversed it. Our brains can't multitask, so if either one of us is talking to ourselves while the other is talking to us, we're fully focused on what we're saying and only hearing a portion of what the other is saying. So we hear just enough that we trick ourselves into thinking we’ve got the whole message when we really didn't.” – Michael Reddington · [20:27]
Michael Reddington:
I thoroughly enjoy our conversation. Anytime you're crazy enough to have me back, I'm in. You can't possibly have anything more important to say to me than I have to say to myself and the same is true if we reversed it. I have nothing more important to say to you than you have to say to yourself. Our brains can't multitask, so if either one of us is talking to ourselves while the other is talking to us, we're fully focused on what we're saying and only hearing a portion of what the other is saying, but we hear just enough that we trick ourselves into thinking we got the whole message when we really didn't.
Michael Reddington:
So part of going back to that preparation is I'm not saying we need to go as far as having scripts, because those can be limiting, but understanding the goals we want to achieve, the framework we're going to take to get there, where the common pivot points might be, at least what our important illustrations or questions we want to make are, now we spend a lot less time thinking, “Well, what am I going to say next? Where do I go? What do I do? What's the next slide? What's going to happen?” And we can spend far more time being in tuned to all the cues that they're displaying in order for us to internalise those and adapt as necessary during the conversation.
How to Stay Present During a Sales Conversation with a Prospect · [21:49]
Will Barron:
Again, super basic question here and I've tried to make steps towards this and I'll explain why with the [inaudible 00:21:44] in a second, but how the heck do we remember everything that's being thrown at us where we're not just focusing on what people are saying, but we're trying to take the whole picture in, Michael, on maybe a 20 to 45 minute sales call where we're trying to… We'll stick to the beginning of the sales process where we're trying to qualify the buyer, we're trying to see if we're they're a good fit to work with us?
Will Barron:
How do we avoid getting to the end of the conversation and then we go, “Well, I really enjoyed speaking to Michael. What just happened?” Like we've chatted, we've gone back and forth, I'm not really any idea because I've been so in the moment, I've been so focused and actively listening, trying to ask questions that bring the best out of yourself during the sales conversation, the sales process, how we from a salesperson perspective then, remember it if we're not taking notes and we're not trying to plan the next question that we're going to ask and we're not following a script, which keeps everything down a straight line? How do we keep track of the conversation that we just had?
Michael Reddington:
It starts with our goals, keeping our goal in mind. So for me, the average sales call, let's just say, is 45 to 60 minutes give or take. If somebody schedules a block of time with you, that's about how much time they have. So for me either right now while we're talking, I have my watch in front of me where I can see it so I don't give long winded answers. So if I have my watch in front of me where I can see it, I can at least keep a basic idea on where that time wise, so that way I know if I have to start shifting the purpose of the call towards the end, I'm leaving myself time to do it.
Michael Reddington:
You mentioned notes. Especially if somebody's on a virtual call, which is happening so much more now and probably will stay that way moving forward to some degree. Right now, if I was writing notes over here with my right hand, you wouldn't be able to see it. So I could be not writing notes like I'm witnessing a lecture in college, but just a couple key words that I can look down at and because my handwriting is chicken scratch at best, when I do this, I'll write in all capital letters because it'll make it easy for me to just glance and see that one word that is the trigger I need to remember what I was doing.
“Listen to remember instead of listen to forget. So there are plenty of times where people will be talking to us and we'll start to think, “Oh, I'm never going to remember all of this.” Well, unfortunately we are now far more likely not to member because that's what our brain is focusing on, “I'm never going to remember this.” – Michael Reddington · [23:52]
Michael Reddington:
The other thing that I do is listen to remember instead of listen to forget. So there are plenty of times where people will be talking to us and we'll start to think, “Oh, I'm never going to remember all of this.” Well, unfortunately we are now far more likely not to member because that's what our brain is focusing on, “I'm never going to remember this.” So instead, keeping a chain going in my head. I know this borderline's talking to myself, I'm still focusing on you, and now I'm trying to chain some of the things together.
Michael Reddington:
I guess the last thought that I'll give here before turning it back over is instead of listening to the whole conversation, really observe for reactions to triggers. So at any point in the conversation where I'm saying something that my counterpart might have an emotional reaction to, that's really the time I want to make sure I'm paying attention. If they're talking to me about their concerns, their future goals, what they think of myself or what we're talking about, the times I really want to make sure I'm dialled in is when they are talking about how they think, feel or wants in a way that helps me achieve my goal. So instead of me trying to be full on a hundred percent for the entire duration of the call, I really want to hone in on those trigger moments that will give me the most intelligence. So it's like conserving resources, so to speak,
Will Barron:
I get it. So we need to prioritise, listen to everything and then prioritise the one, two, three things that are going to have the most impact when we repeat them back to the buyer, if it's one specific objection that people are getting stuck on, we can double down and focus on that. I'm similar to you. So I've gone from a… I don't even have it anymore an eight four pad of paper and I'm just constantly scribbling down during these interviews. I've now resided myself to one post-it note per interview so I can just type single words and I've got… I can't read my own writing, start from surname. I don't even know what I've got surname on here anymore. So who knows how effective this is, but I find it keeps the point in my brain if I just do one word note long enough that I can continue listening, then look back, then ask the question, as opposed to being like, “Must ask this, must ask this must ask this.” So that's how I go about doing that and this is my post-it note system, January onwards we're going to give it a go, but we'll see how it goes.
Will Barron:
But what I do get is better feedback from guests and I can see sometimes I'll be… Previously, I'd be jotting down making notes, Michael, I'd look up and then the guest would be just staring at me waiting for the next thing to come out my mouth and there's a bit of a delay. So I guess in person this might work better, doing long form notes, but short form notes, especially over Zoom, I think is really useful for the audience.
Michael Reddington:
And I guess maybe one last, I think hack is the word the kids use these days, especially over Zoom, if I type out the questions that I want to ask and not necessarily in the script, but I do it in like 16 font, all capitals, can't miss it and I leave a bunch of space in between them. Now instead of me thinking, “What do I say?” There you go.
Will Barron:
Yeah.
Michael Reddington:
Now instead of me thinking, “What do I say next?” I can just glance down.
Will Barron:
Yeah.
“A lot of observing for value and identifying hidden value comes down to managing the number of variables we have to deal with during the conversation. The more we can limit the number of variables we have to deal with and focus on the correct ones, the more successful we'll be.” – Michael Reddington · [27:18]
Michael Reddington:
Love it. Or if you answer a question before I even get to ask it, now I just go ahead and I scribble that note next to the question that I was going to ask and I move on. So the little things we can do to prepare, make it easier. In my opinion, a lot of observing for value and identifying hidden value comes down to managing the number of variables we have to deal with during the conversation. The more we can limit the number of variables we have to deal with and focus on the correct ones, the more successful we'll be.
The Primary Goal of All Your Qualification Conversations · [27:40]
Will Barron:
So would it be fair to say then if we are going into a qualifying conversation, the goal of the conversation is to see if this person is a good fit to work with us, as opposed to here is a 27 step qualification framework, med, pick, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah and we're trying to tick these boxes off as we go through by monotonously asking the prospect these questions that they don't want to answer because there's no value in them answering it. Is that fair to say?
Michael Reddington:
I think it's a hundred percent fair to say and I would guess that many situations that demotivates the prospect to answer, because there's nothing personal, there's no resonating going on, there's nothing between me and you. It's like when we go to the doctor and the doctor asks us the same 10 questions, not even looking at us, typing it into the computer and we're like, “Do you even care about me? Are you going to help me with what I feel like is bothering me today?” So I'm a huge fan personally, especially in qualifying calls, going with an illustrative opening, and I'm going to keep it abridged for time, something along the lines of, “Will, thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us today, appreciate that we're both interested in potentially understanding if we are the right fit to work together. In fact, we found that a lot of times at this point in the relationship, many of the people who are considering partnering with us have the same two or three questions,” one, two three. “So with that in mind, generally…” bam. So now it's like I'm educating them before I start asking questions. And there's some other psychological influence mechanisms that out we're using there, but we like to say illustrate before you investigate.
Michael Reddington:
So now I'm making it more of a conversation. Some things I'll just throw out, do they nod their head? Do they smile? Do they react? Do they smile? Do they laugh and say, “Yeah, me too,” or do they shake their head like that's totally foreign? I'm gathering intelligence. Some, I'll asking a question. So by balancing that out through the conversation, now it doesn't feel like I'm sitting in front of them with a clipboard and a checklist and they're going to get the results of my evaluation when we're done.
Will Barron:
Let me ask you this and this is going to ruin this call that I do when people… We do essentially a qualification call when people want to sign up to our training programme because there's so much of my time now invested into each of the students and the price has gone up versus just the online version of the course that we need to make sure that it's the right people coming in there.
Michael Reddington:
Of course.
Will Barron:
So we go through the call and I'll do a bit basic consulting, see where they are. Typically it's where are they, where do they want to get, can we bridge the gap across? And then towards the end of the course something I've started doing and this was just a mistake at first, the Zoom was just playing up and so what I did was there's two packages, two offers that we have, I just typed it into Zoom chat and clicked enter and said, “Hey, talk of the pricing, look at the offer, what you get for it and you tell me which one you want to go with.” So it's some of a close ended question, maybe it'd be more appropriate to have a “What you fancy would be a… I don't want to force people down. I don't want to do like in an assumptive close, I'm not weird like that.
Will Barron:
But what I find is then people go, because they're looking, they have to move their laptop closer, so they're looking at the two offers that we give them typically, whether it's like a one month mentorship or 12 week mentorship and you can see the face and I then have this weird moment where they forget that they're on camera.
How to Look Out for Genuine Responses Over a Zoom Call · [31:20]
Will Barron:
I can see their genuine reaction, their guards drop and obviously most of the time people are like, “Oh great. This kind of fits my budget. This fits my goals. I'm excited,” and people like, “Yeah, yeah, let's move forward with it.” And you can see some people, their face drops and it's not quite the right fit for them and that is that. And before they even say anything, I can then react to that on the call itself. What do you think of that? Because it's all a fluke and I've done it a few times now on a few calls and people seem to give a… that's the… because it's a sales call as well, but people seem to drop the guard and give me a genuine response just via the kind of the nonverbal cues on camera.
Michael Reddington:
I love it. I was doing a sales programme a couple years ago and I spent way too much time going into all these nuances of non-verbal communication and different areas of the body and what to look for and all this stuff and I say this jokingly, all proud of myself for all the stuff that I'm teaching them. And then at the end, one of the reps in the back of the class raises their hand and says, “So I think I got it. Really what I just need to do is do they look happy or do they not?”
Will Barron:
Yeah.
Michael Reddington:
And I started laughing. I was like, “Yes, you're way smarter than I am.” Like all of this stuff is nice, but it doesn't really matter. Do they look happy or do they not? So one of the tools that I'll use, we like to call a suggestive series. So I'll give somebody a suggestive series of choices. Oftentimes at this point in the conversation, the person I'm talking to, their top three or four concerns might be one, two, three four or their top goals might be one two three or there are two or three things that they really have on their mind or the problems they really want to get resolved right now are one, two, three. And when I throw them out there, I do exactly what you just said. I'm just looking at their reaction to each of them and now does one seem to turn them off? Does one seem to make them angry? Does one seem to make them happy? Do they smile? Do they shrug? Do they stop and move their eyes like they're really hesitating to think about it? Do they kind of give me a disgusted face?
Michael Reddington:
But now all of these things give me immediate intelligence. That's an immediate emotional response to something that I said, they almost certainly didn't even realise that they did it and now I have intelligence that I can begin to adapt and specify where I go next to take advantage, either avoid or go for something. So I think what you're talking about is another great application for that.
Will Barron:
I think I'll experiment with it. With your blessing, Michael, I think I'll experiment with it a little bit more then because I don't want it to be a manipulative tool that I'm using, but just dumping it in the chat, allowing them just have two, three seconds to look it over and see what's a good fit for them and respond. As I said, I just had this moment of clarity when it happened the other day, as I said, when I had to do it and I've done it since because it seemed to work, of people's faces like either light up or occasionally just go, “Oh crap. I've not got the funds for this,” or “This is not a good fit,” or “This isn't what I was expecting,” and then that immediately, no more bullshitting, no more fuffing around. I know exactly where people are on the call. So yeah, I'll do more experimenting and I'll I'll report back to the audience.
Remembering and Interpreting: The Keys to an Effective Sales Call · [34:14]
Will Barron:
Now I've just ruined it for everyone who listens to this episode of the show who jumps on a call with me to see if they're a good fit for the training programme, but I'm happy to sacrifice our sales process for the audience. Michael, we've covered two levels of the six levels of listing now. Is there anything you want to throw in on top? I'm just conscious of time. Is there anything out of the other four levels that we really desperately need to cover?
Michael Reddington:
Well, the next two are going to be remembering and interpreting and we can't remember what we don't hear and we talked a little bit about helping with remembering. With interpreting that one thing that I would say is we talk a lot about emotional intelligence, putting ourselves in someone else's shoes. Context is king. So trying to understand where they're coming from, all the factors that could be impacting what they say.
Michael Reddington:
A funny example, I think from my interrogation career is people used to ask me, “Don't you get mad when people lie to you?” No, I'm actually thankful for it. And then they would look at me kind of crazy. I'm like, “First of all, they're not lying to hurt me. It's the last good decision they have. Like they're just trying to stay out of trouble, so I can't fault them for that and it probably has some intelligence buried within the lie. So if I listen carefully enough, I can figure out where it's coming from, what they're afraid of.”
“Always remember that as sales professionals, often people have more reason to at least initially resist us than they do to welcome us. So never take that personally.” – Michael Reddington · [35:16]
Michael Reddington:
So let's remember as sales professionals that often people have more reason to at least initially resist us than they do to welcome us. So instead of taking that personally, really working to understand, as we go through that interpretation. Interpretation, of course, then leads into evaluation. Evaluation, again, takes in all the contextual clues and works that in with our goals. How does everything I'm hearing and seeing relate to the goals that I want to achieve? If I'm qualifying, is this a conversation I should continue having, is this one I should break off? If it's one I should break off, how should I do it in order to leave some door open for potential? Or if I'm going to keep going, how do I go in a direction that gets me closer to my goal?
“It's important to remember that people react the strongest to what they hear first and people will interpret how we communicate with them as proof for how much we respect them.” – Michael Reddington · [36:04]
Michael Reddington:
And then the last one in her model was responding, and I would like to say that it's important to remember that people react the strongest to what they hear first and people will interpret how we communicate with them is proof for how much we respect them. So really being conscious with our responses, trying to respond in a way that helps protect their self image, doesn't put the swinging spotlight over their head or makes them feel embarrassed and keeps us moving towards the goal would be considerations.
Will Barron:
There's a whole conversation there. Maybe we can discuss this in the future of not… kind of respect, but also the dynamic between buyer and sell where typically at the beginning of most sales calls, there's like an alpha beta kind of battle where the buyer wants to be the one in control. Then when they see that we can help them, that we're a consultant, that we're following Michael's advice, we're generally listening to them, perhaps that simmers down around the same kind of level, which is where we want to be. And then it depends on how, forceful is the wrong word, completely the wrong word, but how assertive we need to be to help them get over the hurdle of spending the money, putting the resources in, building a team, building consensus within the account, getting a champion on board, depending on how assertive we have to be to help them help themselves towards the end, there can be another bit of a battle back and forth.
Will Barron:
So it'd be interesting conversation to have in the future, Michael, of how that respect and all these different dynamics affect a conversation from the perspective of a salesperson where you always start in second place typically. It's very rare, even when I jump on sales calls, when people have listened to the sales and podcast for the last five years, the begging for a book, the begging for consulting and I get on a call with them and they still are trying to treat me not as a peer for the first 20 seconds until I do certain things to not allow that to happen. So that could be a cool topic for the future.
Michael Reddington:
Yeah. I'd be happy to talk about that. I think that'd be fun.
Parting Thoughts · [37:58]
Will Barron:
Cool, man. Well, we'll wrap up with that. I know the book isn't out yet. Tell us, if you want to share when it's going to be out or you keep the timeframes rough, if you like, but tell us more about the Disciplined Learning Method and where we can find out more about yourself as well.
Michael Reddington:
I appreciate it. Thank you. So the book is The Discipline Listening Method, how a certified forensic interviewer unlocks hidden value in every conversation, a bit of a mouthful. If all goes well, I don't want to jinx anything, it should be available globally in spring. So we're working hard to hit that target date. They can learn more about me at InQuasive.com, I-N-Q-U-A-S-I-V-E.com. I'm on LinkedIn as well. If anybody wants to find me on LinkedIn, Michael Reddington CFI, and really the message that they're going to get from the book, from the website, hopefully from our conversations, is that everything that we do should be about enhancing the value of our relationships and conversations in order to spur goal achievement, not just goals we have in mind, but even greater goals. And oftentimes the path to do that is a bit surprising and if we take a step back, prioritise somebody else's experiences, and really, like we talked about today, open our situational awareness up a little bit wider, we can begin to create opportunities that previously didn't appear to be out there.
Will Barron:
Amazing stuff. Well I'll link to the book when it's out, your website right now, and everything else that we've talked about in the show notes this episode over its salesman.org. With that, Michael, it's a pleasure as always, mate. I want to thank you for joining us on the Salesman podcast.
Master The Upsell With This Proven Product Upselling Framework
Jan 21, 2022
Quick—what part of your job do you enjoy the least? If you’re like most salespeople, you probably said prospecting. All the cold emails, the endless follow-ups, the calling, and the relentless slog of “no” after “no.”
While there’s a time and a place for prospecting, if you’ve already got a long list of current clients, you may be wasting your time on finding new ones.
Why?
Because you can upsell your current clients to a premium product more easily than you can bring on new customers. And when you do so, you can drive more revenue, greater client loyalty, and higher commissions than going the old prospecting route.
This guide shows you how to upsell like a pro. Inside, we’ll look at the massive benefits of upselling as well as The Proven Product Upselling Framework that takes all the “huh?” out of this underutilized sales strategy.
What Is Upselling?
Upsell Definition: To effectively encourage current clients to purchase a more expensive, upgraded, or superior version of the product they have now.
Simple, right?
When you convince your current clients to purchase a newer version, you’re offering an upsell, meaning a better version than what they’re using today.
This, of course, deviates from the normal routes of prospecting (i.e., attracting new customers) because it focuses on your existing customers.
Some examples of upsells include:
Higher tier membership offering better support
Different models with added features
Premium packages with more products included
Added product warranties
Increased personalization
Upselling vs. Cross-Selling
Upselling is often confused or conflated with cross-selling. But in fact, the two are slightly different. Let’s take a look at the definition of cross-selling to see how.
Cross-Selling Definition: To effectively encourage current clients to purchase an entirely new product, usually on the basis of the product they have now.
Rather than getting an upgraded version of a product, they’re getting a new one entirely.
Let’s look at an example.
Say you’re shopping for organic vitamin C supplements on Amazon. You’ve found a brand with some great reviews, so you decide to purchase from them. But as you’re about to add the supplement to your cart, you notice they offer a higher potency version and decide to upgrade to that version instead.
That is an upsell.
As you make your way through the checkout process, you’re taken to a “Because You Liked…” page that offers products you may like based on your purchase of the supplement. Products like other supplements, natural teas, and organic skincare products.
That is cross-selling.
See the difference?
Why Upsell At All?
Now that we’ve got a better handle on what upselling is (and what it isn’t), the question becomes, “Why do this at all?” I mean, why work on a whole new process to bump your existing clients up to another version?
Should you even bother?
As you might’ve guessed, the answer is a resounding “Hell yes!” But why? What makes focusing on the upsell sales technique so beneficial for you?
There are four main reasons why upselling beats out traditional prospecting.
It…
Is easier than finding new prospects
Drives more revenue
Instills greater loyalty
Enhances personalization
A. Easier Than Finding New Prospects
First and foremost, focusing on driving new sales from existing clients is substantially easier than closing deals with new customers.
Here are some stats to drive the point home.
Prospecting and qualifying leads are the top challenges for at least 1 out of 3 salespeople (HubSpot).
You have just a 5 to 20% probability of successfully selling to a new prospect in most industries. If you’re selling to an existing customer, that probability jumps to 60 to 70% (Marketing Metrics).
It cost 5X as much to attract a new customer compared to retaining an existing one (Invesp).
When you put your efforts into the clients you already have, you’re bound to see more success than blind prospecting.
“We all know the stats that show how hard it is to get a new customer compared to keeping your existing ones. So if you show genuine curiosity in how things are going with existing clients, it means you've got to spend less time scrapping about creating content, less time making cold outreach because you're maintaining your existing customer base through being genuine through being passionate about their outcomes, which in result, is going to help you hit your quotas or break your quotas and obviously make more commissions.” – Interview Sam Dunning, Marketing Expert
B. Drives More Revenue
When you work with existing customers, you’re going to drive more revenue (and earn higher commissions) than seeking out new leads.
Let’s look at the numbers.
Increasing customer retention by just 5% drives a 25 to 95% increase in profits for businesses (Invesp).
Repeat customers spend 67% more on purchases than new customers (BIA).
Nearly 2 out of 3 businesses with strong customer loyalty make more money from these customers than it costs to retain them (Aspire Power Solutions).
It isn’t just easier to work worth existing customers then. It’s also much more profitable. Convinced yet?
C. Instills Greater Loyalty
The more you can get current clients to invest, the more likely they are to remain loyal—provided you follow through on your promises, of course.
That boosted loyalty increases their customer lifetime value (which is great). But equally importantly, it skyrockets the chances of earning a referral from those clients.
And referred customers are worth their weight in gold.
Here’s why.
Referred customers spend 15 to 25% more on their first order, make more repeat purchases, have double the lifetime value of non-referred customers, and are 3X more likely to refer their friends to your brand (Mention Me).
Customers acquired through referrals have a 37% higher retention rate than clients brought on through other means (Deloitte).
Referred customers have an 18% lower churn rate than other customers (Wharton).
Boost loyalty, earn referrals, and rake in the profits. What’s not to love here?
D. Enhances Personalization
Finally, when you upsell your current clients effectively (using the framework below), you’re demonstrating that you understand their needs. You get them. And when you show that, you’re doing wonders for rapport building.
Let’s look at just a few more stats.
Nearly all (99%) marketers agree that personalization helps advance customer relationships, with 78% claiming it has a “strong” or “extremely strong” impact (HubSpot).
Only 13% of customers believe that a salesperson can truly understand their needs (Brevet).
More than 2 out of 3 (69%) buyers report that the best way to make the buying experience positive is by listening to their needs (HubSpot).
Upselling isn’t just about bringing in more sales. It’s about showing your current clients that you really do understand their needs. And that can go a long way.
The Proven Product Upsell Framework
Clearly, there are some very real (and very lucrative) benefits to upselling your current clients.
But let’s face it, no one likes change. And unless you can really sell an upgrade, you’re likely to hear a lot of “Thanks, but no thanks.”
That’s why you need to take a strategic approach. One that zeroes in on paint points, offers quantifiable benefits, touches on risks, and drives real urgency.
Enter The Proven Product Upsell Framework. Successful upselling here we go!
This framework has seen real-world success in turning lukewarm clients into enthusiastic buyers of upsold products. And when implemented properly, it takes the question mark out of upselling completely.
All you have to do is:
Document Current Results
Explore the Changing Needs
Highlight the Risk of Not Switching
Give an Instant Discount
1. Document Current Results
“Every single move you're going to make, whether it's a renewal or an upsell of any type, starts with identifying and documenting results, anchoring and justifying their faith in you.” – Interview with Tim Riesterer, Chief Strategy Officer of Corporate Visions
The first step of the framework is to document how you’ve already helped your client. This is the sturdy, logical foundation on which your upselling pitch is built. After all, B2B buyers make decisions on hard numbers, not just sales savviness.
When it comes to new vs. current accounts, it’s all about how you treat the status quo.
For instance, with new accounts, you want to attack the status quo. Productivity could be better. Efficiency could be better. Bottom-line earnings could be better.
But with current accounts, you’re actually attacking and defending the status quo. You’re defending it because you don’t want clients to head to your competitor. And you’re attacking it so you can convince them to upgrade to your premium product.
There are a couple of ways you can do both at once. But the best I’ve found is by sending them a value-rich quarterly report.
Create a Client Quarterly Report
The quarterly report isn’t difficult to create. And sending it to clients before having an upsell conversation is incredibly effective at driving change.
In it, you should include six separate elements.
Your Earned Results – What results have you and your product earned for the account? How have you improved their business, streamlined their processes, and boosted their revenue? Get into the weeds here with hard, quantifiable numbers.
Review of Previous Buying Process – This should be a quick reminder that reconfirms the client did their due diligence during the original selection process. This is especially helpful if decision-makers in the account have changed roles. But secondly, it also reinforces the pain of going through all that again with a competitor.
Sharing of New Industry Insights – This is where the real value starts to kick in. What industry issues are coming down the pipeline for the client? What should they anticipate next month, next quarter, and next year? And how can you help them weather that change?
Detailed Competitor Improvements – Your product may be very similar to your competitor’s (that’s just the way it is sometimes). But when you’re working with existing clients, that can actually work to your advantage. If you can explain to your client that there are similarities between the two ranges of products, they’ll likely agree that there’s little reason to change things up.
Your Own Detailed Improvements – In this section, explain how you and your company have been improving your products. What new features have you been developing? How do they compare to your competitors? And how can they help the client?
Highlight the Cost of Change – Lastly, wrap up the document by giving a brief summary of the cost of changing considering everything discussed so far. This is also a fantastic place to start introducing the upsell products you hope to convince clients to buy.
Upsell Pro Tip: Your report should aim to offer value, not just prime the client for an upsell. As such, you need to frame it as a source of information they’ll actually want.
If it’s a blatant and shameless attempt to push them towards purchasing a new version of a product they already have, it can have a serious backfire effect that spoils the rest of the framework.
“When we provide value for someone, it's giving them the tools to make a better, faster, more effective, more efficient decision than they would have without our input.” – Interview with David J.P Fisher, Sales & Networking Expert
2. Explore the Changing Needs
Your quarterly report has already laid a solid foundation for this step with the industry insights, detailed improvements, and cost of changing aspects.
With that information in hand, it’s time to extrapolate.
How will your client’s business change in the upcoming years? What are their competitors doing that they aren’t? And do the products your client uses now suitable for offering that same competitive advantage?
Equally importantly, where does your client want to be in the future? What goals can you help them achieve that might otherwise be out of reach?
It’s time to put your research skills to work here. As the more nuanced and specific you can get, the better.
Offer the Solution
When you’ve identified your client’s changing needs, it’s time to talk about how your product addresses that need gap.
How does your premium product help them achieve their goals? How does your premium product get them to where they want their business to be faster than ever?
Using “what if” scenarios here is a great sales tactic. Try getting them to vividly imagine what it would be like if they achieved their future goals using your product.
Beyond simply priming them for a “yes” answer, this technique also helps the client clearly see that something is needed to achieve those goals. And if you’ve done your job, they’ll know it’s what you’re offering.
Upsell Pro Tip: Research is going to play a major role at this stage of the framework. If you can pinpoint some of the biggest pain points and growth opportunities your client is facing, you can leverage them to better sell your premium product.
Plus, it also shows you’re truly invested in the relationship and understand their changing needs. And that builds trust.
“I think the age-old relationship-building, rapport-building, really doing our research and understanding that person and the organization and making that connection, finding a way that we can demonstrate our expertise and show trust. I think that's critical and probably more important now. We just need to do it in a different environment, because some of the other things we used to do, like break bread together or physically shake hands, we can't do those anymore.” – Interview with Ray Makela, Author, Speaker, & Business Executive
3. Highlight the Risk of Not Switching
Once the buyer understands that their needs have changed and you can offer them more value than before, you need to pull on the other end of the spectrum of pain.
So far, we’ve been focused on how things are going to get better when they work with you. Now though, we need to shift to discuss the pain they will face if they don’t.
Now we need to double down on the fact that there is a risk to the buyer if they don’t keep up and enable us to support them.
This turns the upsell from a “nice to have” to a “necessity” in the mind of the buyer.
You can do so by tapping into the six forms of risk.
The 6 Forms of Risk
The risk of not changing comes in six different forms. If you can explain one or more of these forms of risk of not changing to your buyer, you’ll immediately get them pushing towards an upsell contract.
Physical – This includes dangers to your buildings, equipment, and people. This can hurt your business by resulting in lost time, repair costs, legal action, and reputational harm. Has the buyer changed properties since your original deal? Can your product help reduce the new risk they have in their new buildings?
Strategic – This risk type involves roadblocks to achieving organizational goals. Has the client changed their business, marketing, operations, product, or sales strategy? Can your product help them manage this change or reduce the downside if their new strategy doesn’t work?
Regulatory – Businesses are governed and guided by a wealth of legislation, regulation, and responsibilities, both mandatory and voluntary. The risks of failure to be compliant can be severe, including legal action, fines, penalties, and even closure. Have their compliance risks changed? How can your product reduce this new risk?
Operational – Operational risks are problems that can happen during the day-to-day running of your buyer’s business. They can include things like human error, inappropriate staff behavior, or systems failure. Can your product reduce the new risks that now exist in the buyer’s operations that didn’t exist before?
Technological – With the benefit of new technology comes increased risks. Cyber-attacks, leaking important information, or system downtime can be devastating for a business. If your buyer has increased their reliance on technology, can you reduce their new risks with your product?
Financial – From economic uncertainties and volatile financial markets, the move towards sustainable finance gets increasingly important as a business grows. If your buyer has increased in size, production, or headcount since you originally sold them, has their financial risk increased? Can your product help reduce this financial risk?
Upsell Pro Tip: Don’t overdo it when hammering in the risks. Usually highlighting just one or two will get the ball rolling. But be sure to pinpoint which are most important to the buyer.
“In exchange for giving you the time to have one of these meetings, you're going to be bringing the kind of evidence that is useful to them personally and professionally in that organization and the project or job that they're working on.” – Interview with Tim Riesterer, Chief Strategy Officer of Corporate Visions
4. Give an Instant Discount
By now, you’ve proven to the client that you’ve brought them real, tangible value with your product. You’ve demonstrated that their needs (and the industry at large) are changing around them. And you’ve given them a few reasons to sweat by outlining the risks of not upgrading.
For some clients, these three steps alone will be enough to motivate action. But for others, fear of change may still be causing some hesitancy.
That’s when it’s time to break out the urgency-busting big guns—the instant discount.
This instant discount should be the motivator that gets the client to sign on. But this isn’t any discount. Instead, it’s a time-based discount. And it’s only valid until the deadline is up.
Urgency is the last straw before deciding to buy in. It’s the straw that broke the camel’s back, as it were. And if you’ve successfully performed the three previous steps, it should be the final piece of motivation your client needs to purchase your upsell.
Trigger Event Best Practices
Below are some best practices to follow when creating your trigger event.
Avoid Fake Urgency & Scarcity – These ploys, when uncovered, only breed animosity and degrade your client’s loyalty (a death sentence for your rapport).
Don’t Get Too Flashy – Too many buzzwords and urgency pushes will rub buyers the wrong way. Instead, be clear, confident, and respectful. Remember, you’re offering value, not trying to meet a quota.
Personalize If You Can – If you’re only cutting a deal or giving a unique discount with them, let them know. And tie back the deal (e.g., lower price) to the client’s goals (e.g., coming in on budget).
Keep the Pressure On (To an Extent) – There’s nothing wrong with sending a few helpful reminders that your trigger event is ending soon. Just be careful of getting too pushy here.
Upsell Pro Tip: A trigger event doesn’t always have to be price-related. You could also offer complimentary onboarding, expert consultations, additional products, or other creative incentives. But remember, they all have to be tied to a deadline to drive real urgency.
“Understanding your audience is always the first step. So, I think so much of sales is doing your homework, doing your preparation, and knowing what those trigger points are. What are the things that are going to move these people to actually respond in the way that I want them to? So, that's where I always start, is let's figure out who our customer is, let's figure out our audience, and let's speak their language.” – Interview with Robbie Crabtree, Senior Lecturer at MIT
Wrapping Up
The upsell is one of the best ways to generate more revenue, instill more client loyalty, and even bring in more referrals than ever. Best of all, upselling to existing customers is more efficient, effective, and profitable than fishing for new clients.
And to do it strategically (and successfully), all you have to do is:
Document Current Results
Explore the Changing Needs
Highlight the Risk of Not Switching
Give an Instant Discount
So before you go spending 80% of your day on prospecting, try reaching out to your current buyers and upselling them on a premium version of their current products. When you follow this framework, you’ll be surprised how easy earning a “hell yes!” can be.
Practicing Your Sales With AI? Upselling? And More!
Jan 20, 2022
On this week in sales we’ll be looking at; AI on video calls, revenue operation platforms, answering your questions and much more!
You'll learn:
SALES NEWS:
ZoomInfo Expands Global Operations in London
ZoomInfo (NASDAQ: ZI), a global leader in modern go-to-market software, data, and intelligence, today announced it has expanded its global operations in London and named Simon McDougall as its first Chief Compliance Officer.
“In Q3 2021, the international business at ZoomInfo grew over 80% year over year while our investment in our data assets outside of North America also nearly doubled throughout the year. We’re now in an even better position to build on our momentum there,” said ZoomInfo Founder and CEO Henry Schuck.
Zoom's venture fund invests in conversational AI platform
Second Nature, announced a $12.5 million round of investment to build out their conversational artificial intelligence service.
Second Nature's platform uses conversational AI to coach a salesperson and improve selling skills as well as product knowledge. A salesperson in training runs through a simulated sales call with Jenny serving as the customer. The video conversation is recorded and each trainee gets a score on his or her performance with advice on how to improve various elements of the pitch.
The Second Nature training platform combines sales training and product marketing education in one place.
“Physical retail is going to get more experiential,” says Cate Trotter, head of trends at retail consultancy Insider Trends
Trotter sees e-commerce becoming more experiential. “Across the board, there are all these ways that retailers can entertain customers, educate them, tell their stories better.
The number of consumers using experiential technology is still relatively small. In the United States, only 1 percent of consumers own VR/AR units,
For example, Home Depot offers an AR feature on product detail pages for home decor, furniture, and seasonal decorations; consumers can tap it to see the furnishings in their homes with 3-D augmented reality.
Home Depot has seen conversion rates two to three times higher for customers who use the app compared to those who don’t.
JPMorgan has upped the ante again for junior bankers. The investment bank is raising its starting salary for analysts to $110,000, after lifting it to $100,000 last year, reports Bloomberg, citing anonymous sources.
The increases are being applied internationally, as well as to second- and third-year analysts, associates and employees in the bank’s markets unit. The move follows a similar one by Citigroup earlier this month and underscores budding costs for banks as they compete harder for entry-level workers.
The Art and Science of Creating Good Luck In Sales | Salesman Podcast
Jan 20, 2022
Is it possible to create luck in life and in business? On this episode of the Salesman Podcast, Dr. Christian Busch explains what luck is and how salespeople can generate more of it in their selling endeavors. Dr. Busch is the author of The Serendipity Mindset and one of the world’s leading experts on innovation, purpose-driven leadership, and cultivating serendipity.
You'll learn:
Sponsored by:
Free SalesCode assessment
Learn your strengths and weaknesses in an instant. Taken by over 10,000+ of your competitors. Don't get left behind.
Take the free assessment
Featured on this episode:
Host - Will Barron
Founder of Salesman.org
Guest - Dr. Christian Busch
Author of The Serendipity Mindset
Hello, sales nation. My name is Will Barron, and I'm the founder of salesman.org, and welcome to Salesman Podcast, the world's most downloaded B2B sales show. On today's episode, I am chatting with Christian Busch. He is the author of Connect The Dots: The Art and the Science of Creating Luck. And the paperback of the book has just launched today, so grab a copy from Amazon, wherever you get your books, if you enjoy this podcast episode.
Will Barron:
Dr. Christian Busch is an expert in the areas of innovation, purpose-driven leadership, and serendipity. He's the director of CGA Global Economic Programme over at New York University, and he teaches at the London School of Economics. On today's episode, Christian and I are going to be discussing if it's possible, if it's measurable, if it's possible, to create luck in sales and in business, and how you go about doing it. So Dr. Christian, welcome to the Salesman Podcast.
Dr. Christian Busch:
Thanks so much for having me.
What is Luck? · [01:03]
Will Barron:
I'm glad to have you on, mate. Okay, so let's just get down to the basics of all this before we dive into… Because this topic, obviously there's going to be tonnes of rabbit holes. There's going to be tonnes that we could jump into, right? Does this luck concept, we all know we've all experienced it, does it have an agreed-upon definition? How do we define what luck actually is?
Dr. Christian Busch:
Yeah. It's interesting because when looking into that area, what I found fascinating is that usually when we think about luck, we think about that blind luck that just have it's to us, right? Some kind of fortuitous, coincidental, beautiful moment that somehow benefits us. Being born into a good family, things like that. But actually, where it gets really exciting is when we talk about smart luck, when we talk about serendipity that we create based on our own actions.
Dr. Christian Busch:
And so, take the quintessential moments, if you have erratic hand movements like I do, you spill a lot of coffee. And so imagine you spill coffee in a coffee, shop over someone, and that person looks at you slightly upset, but you sense, there might be something there. You don't know what it is, you just sense there might be something there. And now you have two options, right? Option number one is you just say, “I'm so sorry, here's a napkin.” You walk outside and you think, “Ah, what could have happened had I spoken with that person?”
“When we look at serendipity, this kind of smart luck, across different contexts, love, business, you name it, there's always the same pattern. It's always the same that there's this aspect of randomness, some kind of unexpected moment, but then it's about us to do something with it, to connect the dots and turn that into positive outcomes.” – Dr. Christian Busch · [02:19]
Dr. Christian Busch:
And option number two, you start a conversation, that person becomes your, co-founder, your supplier, the love of your life, you name it. And so it's our reaction to the unexpected. It's making the accident meaningful that turns it into smart luck. And so when we looked at serendipity, this kind of smart luck, across different contexts, love, business, you name it, there's always the same pattern. It's always the same that there's this aspect of randomness, some kind of unexpected moment, but then it's about us to do something with it, to connect the dots and turn that into positive outcomes.
Serendipity: The Process of Spotting and Connecting Random Dots · [02:43]
Will Barron:
So I've just kiboshed all the questions I had in front of me straight away. Is a good feeling measurable, that feeling when you know someone's looking at you or you think that there's an opportunity here? We'll dive into whether you grasp that opportunity or not and how we create around look in a second, perhaps. But what is that gut feeling that we label as a gut feeling, but is there a more clinical definition or has it been researched as to what it actually is?
Dr. Christian Busch:
That's a really interesting question because a lot of times when we trace serendipity and look at it as a process of spotting and connecting dots, intuition plays a huge role. So that sense of, “Oh, there might be something there.” And that's essentially trying to figure out what is the potentiality in that moment. And so the way we've been studying serendipity, and the way serendipity has been studied more broadly is really in three ways.
Dr. Christian Busch:
One is to say, what's the counterfactual? So what could have happened if I put two people into exactly the same position, into exactly the same situation that is unexpected and one does something with it and the other one doesn't, then we see the decision point. The same is with when we think about a lot of my work is qualitative methods. So we go into, for example, a business incubator and we look at what entrepreneurs over time do with a conversation we had, how does that unfold and then what happens with that? Does that turn into a particular product? So we're trying to understand it over time.
Telltale Signs That You Might Be a Lucky Person · [04:05]
Dr. Christian Busch:
But I think where it gets really interesting, and to your point, where a lot of times actually it's not necessarily just that gut feeling, which can be important, but a lot of times it's mostly also about what's the way we look at the world? How do we frame the world? And there's an amazing experiment, actually, one of my favourites. And it's been replicated in different types of context where they ask people, “Do you consider yourself to be lucky?” And every listener, if you think about it, do you consider yourself to be lucky?
Dr. Christian Busch:
And then they pick one of each, one person who says they consider themselves to be very lucky, “So good things tend to happen to me, yada, yada.” And one person who considered themselves to be very unlucky, so, “I'm always in accidents, bad things happen to me.” And I guess we all know people on both sides of that continuum.
Dr. Christian Busch:
And so they tell those two people, “Walk down the street, go into a coffee shop, sit down, have the coffee, and then we'll have our conversation later on.” What they don't tell them is that is five pound notes, there's money in front of the coffee shop door. And inside the coffee shop, there's only one seat left, next to this extremely successful business man who can make big dreams happen.
Dr. Christian Busch:
Now the lucky person walks down the street, sees the five pound note, picks it up, goes inside the shop, orders the coffee. Sits down, has a conversation with the businessman, the exchange business cards, potential opportunity coming out of it, we don't know that part. Now the other person, the unlucky person walks down the street, steps over the five pound note so doesn't see it. Goes inside the shop, orders a coffee, sits next to the businessman, ignores the businessman. That's it.
Dr. Christian Busch:
Now at the end of the day, they ask both people, how was your day today? And so the lucky person says, “It was amazing. I found money in the street, made a new friend and you potentially an opportunity coming out of it.” The unlucky person just says, “Well, nothing really happened.” And that really tells us about the power of perception and the power of alertness. For example, it's fascinating how much money people drop in the street but most of the time we don't see it because we don't expect it to be there.
Dr. Christian Busch:
And I think that's what it mostly bones down to, that in this world that's so uncertain, we still underestimate how likely the unexpected is all the time. And we still think we can plan things out, but actually it happens everywhere and we miss it all the time.
The Difference Between an Optimist and a Lucky Person · [06:15]
Will Barron:
What's the difference then, that might be a good scenario to build this conversation on top of, what's the difference between a optimist and someone who is lucky?
Dr. Christian Busch:
It's a really interesting question because if you think about it like a couple of Venn diagrams, similar to intuition, it's always good to have a good intuition and a mature gut feeling rather than a naive gut feeling, right? So something that actually helps me with making decisions. So that's one Venn diagram. Another one is optimism, as when you can imagine different scenarios and the potentiality of a scenario, it makes it more likely that you can actually then also act on it.
Dr. Christian Busch:
But again, it doesn't have to be the way. I for example, my amazing wife, she is the most amazing person in the world. I know everyone would say that about their wife, but in my case it's actually true. And she's the kind of person, she can be quite not so positive about the world, but still she's always connecting dots and she's always making stuff happen and turning kind of lucky serendipitous moments out of it.
“If you start as a realist, you end up as a depressionist because the world will pull you down. So you have to start slightly optimistic to then become the optimistic realist. Be the kind of person who has a slight optimism, but you’re also extremely realistic about what's possible and what’s not.” – Dr. Christian Busch · [07:43]
Dr. Christian Busch:
And so it's in that way where again, optimism can be something that helps us to make more of it happen, but it's not a necessary condition all the time. And I've been a big fan, a lot of my life has been shaped by Victor Frankl. And I've always been fascinated by he wrote this amazing book, A Man's Search for Meaning, and his key point always was, “Look, if you start as realist, you end up as a depressionist because the world will pull you down. So you have to start slightly optimistic to then become the realist, the optimistic realist.”
Dr. Christian Busch:
And so I've seen that with a lot of the executives we work with, that they are the kind of people who have a slight optimism, but they're also extremely realistic about what's possible and what is.
The Primary Reason You’re Missing Out on Luck · [08:04]
Will Barron:
Is there anything else that goes in this Venn diagram? Because it seems like, and tell me if I'm completely off on this because I could be, but it seems like almost extraversion or confidence could fit into it as well. Because maybe you see the five pound note, maybe you go, “This is an opportunity and I could take it.” And you have the intuition that it's there for the taking, but if you are… And I'm painting in broad strokes here, but if you are introverted, you might be or less confident, you might be more bothered about if anyone sees you pick it up they might come and complain, they might say that you've stolen.
Will Barron:
It seems like there's other barriers to you activating on the luck that's been put in front of you, not just the fact that you've recognised it. Is there something along those lines? Is there any other elements to this Venn diagram that we should be adding to it?
Dr. Christian Busch:
Absolutely. And if we focus on three that I think are extremely important, one, it's interesting, extraversion. There's a lot of hope for closet introverts like myself in terms of that a lot of serendipity actually comes from quiet and calm sources. So watching a movie and then thinking, “Oh my God, people haven't talked about this. That could be a podcast.”
Dr. Christian Busch:
Or taking this one other street to work in the morning and then keeping our eyes open and realising, “In that bookstore, that book, that title, couldn't that be a podcast? Oh my God, serendipitously I came up with a podcast idea.” And so it's a lot of times serendipity can come from these quiet sources or extroverts need introverts to compliment them a little bit to make sense out of all the serendipity and help them filter it.
“When it comes to serendipity and luck, it does help to be an extrovert because you essentially have more conversations with people. So the opportunity space for potential serendipity increases because of the interactions you can have.” – Dr. Christian Busch · [09:38]
Dr. Christian Busch:
So I think the first piece is really to your point, it does help to be an extrovert because you essentially have more conversations. So the opportunity space for potential serendipity increases because of the interactions you can have and so on. And we can talk more about this, especially the hook strategy I think, where we can do a lot in that direction, even as introvert.
Dr. Christian Busch:
But also I think you made a really interesting point about what are the self-limiting beliefs we have? What are the constraints we have that hold us back from acting on something? And I think to me, the quintessential example is you are at a conference, this amazing speaker speaks. You have an amazing idea of what you could do together, but then you don't go to the speaker because you feel like, “I'm not worthy. I'm not ready. I'm not…” You name it.
Dr. Christian Busch:
Same in the coffee shop, right? When you think, “Oh my God, this could be a person I could fall in love with.” But you don't act on it because you have fear of rejection or you name it, right? And I think a lot of us have this inner imposter somewhere in there, lurking around and saying, “Oh, maybe you're not… It's not the right time for that.” And one thing I found really useful in that bracket of overcoming self-limiting beliefs and being able to act on the unexpected is really to think about, what's the worst thing that can happen here?
Dr. Christian Busch:
And I always thought the worst thing that can happen is rejection, right? The worst thing that could happen is that speaker says, “No, I don't have time for you.” Or that person at the coffee shop says, “No, I really don't want to talk with you.” But then I realised the worst thing is not that, the worst thing is that actually walking outside and thinking, “Ah, what could have happened?” Because that's the nagging feeling that doesn't stop. And that consumes your energy and that goes on and on and on. And by that reframing, I felt like, to me, that made a big difference.
Dr. Christian Busch:
And then the third aspect really, and I think that's what I'm really excited about. So now we talked about the aspect of personality traits. We talked about the aspect of what's the self-limiting beliefs. And then the third aspect is really what are the daily practises that we can use to really have more of this happen? And we can build a muscle for that.
How to Have Better Conversations Using The Hook Strategy · [11:33]
Dr. Christian Busch:
And so to give you one example is that hook strategy that I'm a big fan of. And the idea really is to say every time that dreaded what do you do question, for example, do you just answer, “I'm an entrepreneur, I'm this and this.” Or do you cast a couple of hooks where other people could say, “Let me correct the dots. Oh my God, such a coincidence.”
Dr. Christian Busch:
Give you example, Oli Barrett, an amazing entrepreneur in London, if you would ask him the, what do you do question, he would not just say “I'm an entrepreneur.” He would say something like “I'm a technology entrepreneur, recently started reading into the philosophy of science. But what I'm really excited about is playing the piano.” And so what he's doing here is he's giving you three potential hooks where you could be like, “Oh my God, such a coincidence. My sister's teaching on the philosophy of science, you should give a guest lecture. Oh my God, such a coincidence we've been hosting piano matinees, you should stop by.”
“The hook strategy is all about how we use every interaction, every conversation to cast a couple of interests and hooks in a side sentence, and then let the person pick up whatever they're most excited about.” – Dr. Christian Busch · [12:36]
Dr. Christian Busch:
And I think, especially in sales, that's obviously where a lot of sales come from, right? These unexpected, “Hey, let me just tell you one more thing we just started doing…” Just to put it out there and then see what happens. And then that client might say, “Oh my God, such a coincidence. My sister just started a shop where they need exactly that kind of thing.” And so I think to me, the hook strategy is all about saying, how do we use every interaction, every conversation to cast a couple of interests and hooks in a side sentence, and then let the person pick up whatever they're most excited about.
Here’s How You Can Improve Your Ability to Connect the Dots and Experience More Luck · [13:03]
Will Barron:
This is quite a broad question, but is this a skill that we can develop? So you just gave us one direct strategy there that we all literally can use this. I'll have a ponder about this, how I can use this, after this episode wraps up, Christian. But is developing serendipity… I guess connecting the dots seems more logical, as I say, is the ability to connect the dots a skill that we can build proactively? Or is this something that comes with experience of being in sales for 20 years, being in the same industry for five and having gone to networking events for the past three and shook a load of hands? Is it something that we can proactively develop or is it something that comes with time in the game?
Dr. Christian Busch:
Yeah. Well, it's interesting, right? Because when you think about something like previous experience for example, it can help us connect the dots because we might see the unexpected anomaly in something that shouldn't be there. And by that, identify what's new here. But also it can give us that functional fixedness, right? The hammer nail problem, that we're so used to using the hammer when we need the nail in the wall, that we are always looking for a hammer rather than any heavy object that would help us to get it into the wall.
“Building that serendipity mindset is like building muscle. You can train a mindset and you can upskill yourself in terms of mindset.” – Dr. Christian Busch · [14:12]
Dr. Christian Busch:
And so, experience can be good or bad. But no matter what experience we have, we can always build that muscle. And I think that's why I'm so excited about the idea of building that serendipity mindset. Because it's really about saying, like a muscle, you can train a mindset. You can upskill yourself in terms of mindset. And to give you maybe two examples, one example that I'm a big fan of is to do a serendipity journal where you really write down, “Okay, in the past, whenever I had serendipity happen…”
Dr. Christian Busch:
So maybe how I unexpectedly met the love of my life and then actually did something with it but it's not enough to just run into them. You got to go on date and make it happen. Or how I got a client lead unexpectedly at a conference where it was about something completely different and I was there for pleasure, but actually it still came to that.
Dr. Christian Busch:
Whenever I had those kind of serendipitous moments in my life, these unexpected positive outcomes, what is the pattern behind this? What did I do that made that happen? And how can I do more of that? Is there a particular thing I do or a particular sentence I use? Whatever it is, it doesn't matter. But then also more importantly, the opposite. Whenever serendipity could have happened but it didn't. When I was in that meeting, I had that brilliant, unexpected idea, but I didn't raise it. Why? When I wasn't the coffee shop, I didn't talk with that person. Why? And really working then on the underlying question, what is holding me back to act on the unexpected? And that's how we can remove these barriers.
Dr. Christian Busch:
And then third really, we talked about these concrete practises. And what I found really interesting, a couple of years ago I used to live in London and a colleague of mine, a very decorated, highly decorated professor. I started with this work and I told him about it and he was like, “Look, Christian, I love you, I love your work. But I don't need more serendipity my life. I have everything. I have a great family, I have a great job. What else do I need?”
Dr. Christian Busch:
And we made a deal. And we said, “You know what? Just do a couple of small things like ask one different question. Instead of asking people, what do you do? Ask them, what do you enjoy doing?” And small tweaks. “What's interested you about this presentation when you watch it?” Whatever, something that really went deeper into what the motivations of a person are and what makes them tick. And then essentially when you're doing this, what happens is you start getting more and more excited about it.
Dr. Christian Busch:
And so after a month, he comes back and he's like, “Christian, I didn't know life can be so joyful.” And so the point here is, we don't know what we don't know, right? And so what I'm excited about in this work is to really say there's particular small practise we can all do. And once we start doing a few of them, for example, in every conversation, thinking about, can I connect, Will, now to one person? Can I connect them to one idea what they told me about?
Dr. Christian Busch:
When we train ourselves to constantly think about connecting dots, actually our brain literally self frames itself towards it. And so I think that's the beautiful thing about neuroplasticity, where we can frame both our brain in the kind of neuro sense, but also then psychology-wise, we can actually work on our behaviours and what comes of it. And so that's, I think, at the core of this, to say then we identify those different types of dots.
Dr. Christian Busch:
And Will, as last point, then you go to a fisher village in Italy and you meet that fisher woman where you thought you had nothing in common with, but now because you don't ask her, “What do you do?” And she says, “Well, I'm a fisherwoman.” And you're like, “Well, we have nothing in common.” You ask her, “Well, what is it about the fishing that you enjoy doing?” And then she might say, “Well, I enjoy the endlessness of the sea and that it gives me X, Y, Z, and it feels like an endless transition.” And then I would be like, “Oh my God, this is exactly how I feel about when I'm writing an academic paper.” You name it.
Dr. Christian Busch:
So we identify those overlaps once we start to go deeper with a person, rather than assuming they're just their position or their job title.
The Reticular Activating System and Pattern Recognition · [17:50]
Will Barron:
Are you familiar with this term, because I've not heard this term used in an academic sense so I don't know if this is complete nonsense or not. But I've read it in plenty of books, I think it's called it the reticular activating system?
Dr. Christian Busch:
Interesting. Mm-hmm (affirmative). What made you think about it?
Will Barron:
Because it seems like a lot of what we're talking about here is pattern recognition.
Dr. Christian Busch:
Mm-hmm (affirmative), exactly.
Will Barron:
And it'd be perhaps interesting, can you tell us what the reticular activating system is and then how perhaps some of that ties into how pattern recognition ties into some of this?
Dr. Christian Busch:
Yeah. Well what's interesting, because I'm obviously not a in a deeper brain or other sciences, but what I am very excited and interested in is exactly the question of we all somehow when we're growing up and we all somehow when we the world get used to particular patterns and ideas of the world and we are navigating those. And then the question becomes, how do we unlearn some of that?
Dr. Christian Busch:
So if I am used to something, that's the hammer nail problem thing for example. When I have a certain idea of how I go about things and how I learn things, it's very hard to unlearn this. But when you look at, I'm extremely excited for example about Sub-Saharan Africa, where a lot of our work is. Because a lot of times when you are in a context where you have extreme resource constraints, you don't have to unlearn.
Dr. Christian Busch:
If you don't have an ATM machine in your local village, you don't have to think about how do I innovate that kind of ATM machine? You think about how do I get my money from my friends, to the friend in the other village? And that's how unexpectedly or expectedly something like mobile banking comes about because you don't have to think in that box you're in. But you're actually thinking, “Okay, we're solving a particular problem here.”
Dr. Christian Busch:
And I think a lot of companies actually are trying to do that. If you look at a company like Phillips, they used to be organised in departments. So you would have something like a tomography department. But by predefining the solution tomography, you're only innovating within that space now, right? You're thinking about what can I make better as a tomography machine? Versus if you step back and say, well this is all about precision diagnosis. Tomography might be one way, but there might be 20 other ways of how to do precision diagnosis.
Dr. Christian Busch:
And so, if you rename the department into precision diagnosis, you give people the licence to also come up with other things. And that's the same, obviously, in our own lives and how we think about how we define problems. Do we over define the problems so to then kind of limit the potentiality for people? Or do we broaden it up and allow people to connect the dots broader as well?
Will Barron:
For sure. And we see this in sales, just to drag the conversation back to that for a second, all the time, of the problem is how do we get in front of qualified customers and explain what we do and how we can help them? And sales people have the boxes of, I call them, I email them and then, pre-COVID, maybe I knock on a door or see these people at a conference as well.
Will Barron:
And so we're all stuck in these different boxes of there's probably 300 to 500 million salespeople on the planet, all trying to email the same executives in the same five, 600 companies. And they're all trying to do the same job, skin the cats in a slightly different way, to break through. But what I like about this is that perhaps if we remove that box, and obviously it's one thing to say it's another thing to do it, clearly. But if you can make that happen, you…
Will Barron:
Or let me rephrase that, there's potentially other angles, there's other dots that are there in front of us that we just haven't seen. And if we can see them, we'll have opportunities that other people won't have. We'll have that competitive advantage. So is there anything else? Because I want to turn this conversation on it's head slightly in a second, Christian.
Learning to Unlearn: The Most Effective Path to Serendipity · [21:21]
Will Barron:
But is there anything else for a salesperson who's listening to this conversation, Christian, that banging the head against the wall, they're just go email after email, they're not getting through to anyone, they've tried cold calling. They've tried all these things that we talk about in the show all the time, we talk about it in sales books, podcasts, videos, YouTube videos, and nothing's working. Is there anything that they can do to try and pull back, unlearn some of the things that they've learnt perhaps about how sales should be done, then innovate and find other dots that could be connected?
Dr. Christian Busch:
Yeah. Well, that's a great question because I think in general, and I can't speak for the hundreds of millions of salespeople who obviously listen to this show. But in general, a lot of the people I work with and a lot of the people who we study, I think what happens a lot of times is that they very much underestimate their own, quote unquote, warm social capital. So they might focus on cold calling, cold emailing, whatever it is. And we all know how ineffective, that's the numbers game, right? That's kind of all about having a huge pot of numbers and then hoping that one of them goes through.
Dr. Christian Busch:
Versus I think we completely underestimate our own social capital in the sense of, let's say I live somewhere in South London and I have 10 people I interact a lot with. One is the shopkeeper downstairs. One is the kind of local priest or rabbi or imam. And one is the my sales partners. We might underestimate how much that local shopkeeper for example, they might confidentially be the brother of the CEO of [inaudible 00:23:02]. Or the priest might have gone to school with X, Y, Z person.
Dr. Christian Busch:
The point is we will never know that latent social capital, if we don't cast these hooks where we essentially in every conversation bring in those things that actually we would like to somehow, in a way, sell. So to give you one example, at the moment, one of my key purposes in life is to say, “I've seen this mindset work and I've seen it work across contexts around the world. So I want to take into any curriculum and company and training programme that I can.”
Dr. Christian Busch:
And so wherever I go, being it with a shopkeeper, in a local supermarket or whatever it is, I would somehow try to seed that in. And I would be like, “Oh, thank you so much. No, this is really exciting because after writing a book, you can see how this is and da, da, da. And now it's all about how we get this.” I'd bring that into a side sentence. And the amount of times from the most unexpected of people, again, the local shopkeeper type people, would be like, “Oh my God, I watched something on TV yesterday. Have you like seen that this thing could be perfect for you?” Or, “Oh my God, my sister is actually running a local school. You should come by.”
Dr. Christian Busch:
And so the point really is I think leveraging our latent social capital, even our uncle, our sister, where we don't assume that they might know someone. But just casting a couple of hooks I think leads us to many more warm introductions as well.
How to Leverage the Social Capital of Other People · [24:24]
Will Barron:
Is there any technology that can help us with this? Because it seems like for the average Joe, who's going around, plodding around the shop. Obviously I'm not being derogatory toward shopkeepers here, but they're in a specific place all day, right? They are speaking to customers. Most of the traffic into the shop is going to be foot traffic going by. Maybe in hindsight, this conversation, they can influence the luck of a big spender coming into the store and buying a load of food.
Will Barron:
But for sales people, they proactively are calling, emailing. They're proactively doing this outreach. So it seems like they might be slightly more in control of their own destiny than someone like a shopkeeper. Not the greatest example, but I'm sticking with it, Christian. Is there any way that we can use technology to, at minimum, track some of this and at best speed it up, leverage it, and multiply the effects of it?
Dr. Christian Busch:
Yeah. Well, I'm a huge fan of trying to leverage the social capital of others. What do I mean with this? And that works both offline and online. It's the idea let's say, I don't know, it's an online event, right? Virtual event where you have this amazing speaker speaking and then there will be a Q and A session at the end. Now that's not your audience, that's their audience. But if you're the person who, in a very proactive way, asks a couple of questions in the Q and A so that nobody can ignore you, in a non [inaudible 00:25:45] way, but really asking a lot of the good questions. And then you are the one who is asked in the end to, “Hey, why don't you ask your question?”
Dr. Christian Busch:
And again, same in a physical setting, right? When you're in a room of 500 people, you're the first one asking the question. And then the way you ask the question is making it all about the speaker, “Thank you so very much for this great presentation, blah, blah, blah. As someone who is looking a lot into X, Y, Z thing…” So that's where the hook is being asked. So that can be any kind of hook that wants to be put. “I wanted to ask you the question of X, Y, Z, X, Y, Z.”
Dr. Christian Busch:
What's fascinating here is that it's always nice to connect with the speaker, but what's mostly important is, in an audience of 500 people, there's always two or three people who will come afterwards and say, “Oh my God, such a coincidence. We were just looking into like such a solution. Can you help me out?” And the point here is, that's really about saying, “How do I leverage the social capital of other people if I don't have it?”
Dr. Christian Busch:
In a really smart, unobtrusive, unannoying way. It's not about pitching something. The moment you would pitch something at people, they would say, “Oh my God, let's get that person out of here.” But if you frame it around, making it all about the other person and then building in that small hook, it's amazing how often people latch on that and do something with. And I think technology in a way makes that scalable. Technology from our living room, we can dive into those different types of conversations in a non-pitchy way.
Dr. Christian Busch:
But also second, I'm a big fan of this idea of Zoom and WebEx and so on being our own personal, private plane. When you think about it, when we are speaking now, when I think about my selling is mostly around content, right? I'm selling ideas. And so when I'm selling ideas, usually I have to fly to Tokyo to give a speech, and then I have to fly back. And that costs me one-and-a-half days, right? To go through customs and everything else. Now within 30 minutes, I'm there and that's okay and so on.
“Technology is just a tool. And I think with any given tool, it's the way we interact with people. Do we interact with them in a way that's truly meaningful and cast hooks that they want to pick up? Or do we just push something on them, which rarely works.” – Dr. Christian Busch · [27:47]
Dr. Christian Busch:
So to me, it's the scalability of any platform. And so that's to me less about… To me, technology is just a tool, right? But it's about what do we do with any given tool? And I think with any given tool, it's the way we interact with people. Do we interact with them in a way that's truly meaningful and cast hooks that they want to pick up? Or do we just push something on them? Which rarely works.
Will Barron:
For sure. You touched on tonnes of points here. I literally preach to the audience, Christian. So, 30,000 plus people will download this episode of the podcast on audio, who knows on the video side of things? We've got some episodes that have 1000 views, some that have got like 700,000 views, certain interviews now. I get the majority of the business that I sell over at salesman.org, which is the enterprise sales training that we do with our training product, which is tying into even more what you're saying of it's an online product with backed-up one-on-one training via Zoom.
Will Barron:
And if I was doing this in person, well, I'd need a team of 50 people. I'd need 50 Wills and I don't think the world wants or needs that, right? It'd be carnage. The scale that we operate at for such a small team just couldn't exist if it wasn't for the fact of Zoom and the scale of the podcast. And the fact that this year, we'll be up to, in 2022, we'll have interviewed over 1000 people, 1000 experts like yourself in business and psychology. And I've had F1 drivers on here. We've had astronauts on here.
Structural Advantage and the Science of Good Luck · [29:20]
Will Barron:
There's no way I'd get access to any of these people. Well, they'd see me coming a mile away and be running away before the interview even started if we were doing this in-person. But that scale is unprecedented. So let me ask you this, and I've got one final question that we'll wrap up the show with, is there a first move advantage to connecting the dots, to building luck, to becoming what seemingly is a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy with some of this? Is there a first move advantage in leveraging this now before all the Zoom calls, all the content of your book, this idea of luck, the science behind connecting the dots becomes more and more mainstream, which it clearly will do over time?
Dr. Christian Busch:
It's really interesting because it makes me think of two things. And it's one of those questions, in my mind it went into 20 different directions, but I'll pick two of them. And then the rest we'll discuss over a nice beer, I assume. But so the first is really around when we talk about advantage. To me, it's important to think about that obviously it's a lot about structural advantage, a lot of times you'll certainty be base level, right?
Dr. Christian Busch:
So when I look at an entrepreneur somewhere in Kenya, the starting level in terms of potential certainly is very different from someone like me who can set up businesses because I have good networks and things like that. And everything scales much quicker. And so the base level we're starting from is very different. But then in any context, the point is that we can do something. And I've seen that in different context work out.
“There's so much adjacent possibility that at any given point there's something possible, but it’s lost potential by us not having thought of it.” – Dr. Christian Busch · [30:53]
Dr. Christian Busch:
And so the mindset has to go hand-in-hand with working on structural constraints, working with governments and others on also making sure that other people, the social inequalities is being reduced. I think that's an important point. But to your point, the way I really look at it is that there's so much adjacent possibility that at any given point, there's something possible because of the potentiality of us not having thought of it.
Dr. Christian Busch:
Because if you think about it, let me give you an example. I'm a big fan of the potato washing machine. And the potato washing machine is essentially a couple of years ago, a company, they produce refrigerators and washing machine and they receive calls from farmers. And the farmers told them, “Your crappy washing machine is always breaking down.” “Well, why is the washing machine breaking down?”
Dr. Christian Busch:
“Well, we're trying to wash our potatoes in it, and it doesn't seem to work.” And so what would we usually do? We would probably try to educate the customer. We'll probably say, “Well, that's a washing machine. Don't wash your potatoes in it. It's not made for that. Our marketing plan says that we are selling those machines for clothes.” Now they did the opposite, they said, “That is unexpected, but there's probably a lot of farmers in the world who might have a problem in that department too. So why don't we build in a dirt filter and make it a potato washing machine?”
Dr. Christian Busch:
Why am I telling you this? Because at the end of the day, there's unlimited potential for how we think about innovation and inventions offline and online. And I think it's great that we can now do that in a scalable way to your point via technology. But I think we can do it in any moment, in any meeting, at any interaction. And that's why I'm so excited about that. I think you can at any point in your particular field, be a first mover in thinking about what is the adjacent possible here that we can do around? And then cast those hooks to make it happen.
How to Spot Bad Luck and Stop it Before it Actually Happens · [32:21]
Will Barron:
Love it. Okay. This is the final question for you, Christian. And this might be a whole different podcast episode or a whole conversation, eight pints in, three shots, and a sambuca in a pub in London. Is the inverse of everything that we discussed true in that, every now and again, we're all going to be struck with bad luck, a bad serendipity, dots that have connected that we don't want to be connected? Is it possible to inverse everything that we talked about and perhaps see the dots ahead of time and avoid them, does it work that way around as well?
“Bad luck happens to everyone. I think that's just what it is, and that's unfortunately how life is. And so I think being too afraid of the bad luck that could happen will hold you back.” – Dr. Christian Busch · [32:58]
Dr. Christian Busch:
I think it's a great question. It makes me think of two things. So one, bad luck happens to everyone. I think that's just what it is. And that's unfortunately how life is, right? That we all have bad luck happen. We all will be disappointed by some people where we put a lot of hope in it and so on. And so I think that's a given, that will happen. And there's probably not that many ways around it. I'm always a big fan, similar to love, if you don't embrace it and if you're trying to be too scared of it, it will never really happen. And so I think being too afraid of the bad luck that could happen will hold us back. So I think that's just a part of life.
Dr. Christian Busch:
But I think the second part is to me the important one, serendipity for one might not necessarily be serendipity for someone else. So if you take someone, if you have a dictator of a country who has a lost serendipity happen, but that doesn't necessarily benefit their people, right? It might be the opposite.
Dr. Christian Busch:
One of my favourite examples is this retired person driving in a car and the last pleasure of their life was smoking a little bit of weed. And so they had a bit of weed in their car. A police man had an unexpected hunch of stopping that car, stops the car, unexpectedly finds the mariajuana, which was a bigger stash than expected. Great for the policeman, becoming policeman of the month for like unexpectedly identifying [inaudible 00:34:11] thing. For the retired person, of course that's really the worst thing that could have happened to them. And so I think what happens here a lot of times is that serendipity for some person might be the opposite for the other.
Dr. Christian Busch:
And then third to your points, serendipity a lot of times, because it's a process, can turn into good or bad. And vice versa, the inflexion point for serendipity a lot of times start is crises. And I think that's to me the really interesting thing also, that when you think about where a lot of serendipity comes from, it comes out of crises. Think about how you could only meet the love of your life today.
The Mindset We All Need During Crisis · [34:46]
Will Barron:
Sorry to interrupt you, Christian. That that's a mindset though, right? You see it that perspective. But if you didn't have what we talked about so far on the show, and you didn't have the mindset to look for the opportunity in the crisis, if you were a pessimist, if you took no action on it, if you've got regrets on not acting upon it, you're not going to have what you've just described. Which is taking something negative and turning it positive, which I guess the whole point of the show, right?
“In every moment, every crisis, we have the question, does this crisis and this situation define me, or do I define that situation? So, wherever you are, whatever situation you are, there's always something in there.” – Dr. Christian Busch · [35:13]
Dr. Christian Busch:
That's exactly it. I think every moment, every crisis, we have the question, does this crisis and that situation define me, or do I define that situation? And I think that is the power. Victor Frankl always said it beautifully, “We can't always pick the situation we're in, but we can always pick our response to it.” He didn't never say that, but that is his spirit. I think he was misquoted a couple of times about it. But his key idea behind it was to say, wherever you are, whatever situation you are, there's always something in there.
Dr. Christian Busch:
Sometimes there might be no intrinsic meaning. He was in a concentration camp, which is the toughest of situations I can imagine. And he wondered, “How can I still build meaning into that situation?” And so one thing he did, for example, was he said, “This is a situation in that intrinsically doesn't have any meaning so I will create one. So I know that I might die here. I know that there's nothing here that I can objectively do, but I can every day speak with a fellow prisoner and make them feel better about themselves. And now I have a meaning to wake up in the morning.”
Dr. Christian Busch:
And by doing this, now he can look back on the time and say, “I made something meaningful with whatever situation I was dealt with.” And I think any situation I've had in my life where something really interesting happened, a lot of times came out of crisis, out of a heavy breakup as an inflexion point. And then yes, if you in the heavy breakup say, “Oh my God, my life is over.” Then life is over because nobody will just hand it to you.
Dr. Christian Busch:
But if you go through and say, “Look, maybe there's someone even better out there.” And that's easier set than down, right? There's a lot of emotional components to it. I had COVID last year in a very severe way, those kind of situations you just feel, “Wow, life is over.” But then actually I think it's that reframing that can help us a lot. It's sometimes easier than other times. And I think, again, we never blame anyone for blind luck, and we can never blame anyone for the situation then because we don't know all the aspects around it.
Will Barron:
Love it. We'll wrap up with that, Christian. I love the way that this show started numbers, quantifying these techniques. I'm not religious, not spiritual in the slightest about anything. But there's almost a spiritual element to this, beyond a self-help book, Tony Robbins-esque element to this as well of it's almost a self-fulfilling prophecy of what you look for, you're more likely to find. And then of course you're more likely to act on as well. I think that's really serendipitous for the audience and I think there's a tonne of value there for them in this episode. So I appreciate that, Christian.
Parting Thoughts · [37:46]
Will Barron:
With that, mate, tell us more about the book, tell us what we can find it? And tell us what we can find more about you as well, sir?
Dr. Christian Busch:
Yes, absolutely. And likewise, I really enjoyed that, to go on those different levels. Because I grew up in Heidelberg were Goethe and [inaudible 00:37:57] wrote a lot of their poems. And a lot of what they wrote about was about that idea of potentiality. Goethe would write about if you take someone as they could be, you make them capable of becoming who they can be. And that's always been exciting to me to say, is there something more in a situation than there is? And then that's how… It's not only a former drug dealer who's in front of you, but a potential teacher. It's not only a former [inaudible 00:38:19], but…
Dr. Christian Busch:
Once you see the potentiality in a moment, it's almost like, in a very non-spiritual spiritual way actually about the betterment of society. And I think we can apply that to a lot of different areas as well. The book itself kind, it's everywhere where books are sold. It's called Connect the Dots, Penguin is publishing it. And yeah, it's on Amazon, local bookstores. And on Twitter, I'm @ChrisSerendip.
Will Barron:
Amazing stuff, well I'll link to that book and everything else we've talked about in this episode over at salesman.org. Christian, I want to thank you for your time, mate. We said this before we clicked record, I love doing these episodes. There's a tonne of vibe for the audience. I get more enjoyment myself from having these conversations than I do the usual cold calling, emailing, social selling side of things. So I appreciate you coming on the show. I appreciate you sharing your insights. And thanks again for joining us on the Salesman Podcast.
Objection Handling Made Simple: The Proven 3-Step Framework
Jan 18, 2022
Few things are more infuriating than having a product you know is perfect for a buyer, but continually getting shut down, time and time again.
“We don’t have the budget.”
“We’re happy with what we have now.”
“I don’t see the value in what you’re offering.”
These are sales objections. And they are usually the biggest hurdle to you closing the sale.
But when addressed the right way, they can build rapport, provide valuable buyer insights, and (of course) lead to a serious sales win.
In this guide, we’re going to cover the most effective method I’ve found for objection handling. Once you’ve engrained this simple framework into your processes, you’ll be turning doomed deals into sign-on successes in no time.
Plus, we’re also going to look at some of the most common sales objections you’re likely to face and how to respond to them using the framework.
Sound good? Then let’s go.
What Is Objection Handling?
We’ve all been hit with the “no” bomb when talking with a prospect. Unfortunately, in our industry, it’s inevitable.
There will always be prospect's concerns that need to be overcome.
But getting a negative response doesn’t necessarily mean the deal’s dead in the water. Buyers are people. And when people are unsure about making a change (e.g., buying your product), they’ll throw out excuses for not doing it. In the sales world, these are called sales objections.
Now, some of the excuses given to sales reps are legitimate, to be sure. Others are just knee-jerk reactions. But no matter what type of excuse you’re dealing with, you can, in fact, handle sales objections in a way that still leads to closing the deal.
Objection handling, then, is how you address those sales objections to continue to move the buyer through the sales process. Again, it’s all about understanding their concern (whether legitimate or not), addressing it, and easing their mind. Only then will they be ready to buy.
Why Do I Need to Master It?
Objection handling is a challenge to be sure.
HubSpot found 42% and 35% of salespeople think addressing objections involving urgency and price, respectively, were the top challenges they face.
Plus, there are some profound benefits to better sales objection handling. Benefits like:
Need It to Close – The most obvious benefit, of course, addressing sales objections gives buyers peace of mind. It helps them better understand why your product is suitable for their organization. And that means you’re one step closer to “yes.”
Provides Buyer Insights – Sales objections are a window into the mind of your buyer. What issues are they concerned about? What’s most important to them? These details help clue you into what points to focus on during your pitch to maximize your closing success.
Demonstrates Your Knowledge – People want to buy from someone who knows what they’re talking about. If you’re scrambling to come up with an answer to an objection, you’re tanking the deal. But someone who effortlessly and effectively moves through the objection handling process is going to look like an expert.
Builds Serious Trust – When you address your buyer’s objections, you’re proving you take them seriously. You aren’t just some smarmy salesperson only looking to close. Instead, you want to truly solve their problems. And that means more loyal, enthusiastic buyers for you.
The Objection Handling Process: 3 Steps to “Yes”
Now that we have a better idea of what successful objection handling does for us, let’s take a look at how to do it right using the framework.
This framework consists of three steps with two different options for the last step (more on that later) for overcoming common objections:
(Really) Listen to the Issue
Repeat the Issue Back Clearly
(Option 1) Solve the Issue
Confirm the Issue Is Solved
OR
(Option 2) Move Past the Issue
Now, let’s jump into the details.
Note: When it comes to the objection handling process, the best offense is typically defense (i.e., buyers not having negative sales objections or knee-jerk objections like “I don’t have time for this, just email me”).
The best way to prevent negative sales objections from happening in the first place is by asking confident, assertive questions that prove you’re someone to be trusted. That’s the best foundation to build on using this framework.
I cover how to ask these questions in my Selling Made Simple Academy. But in the end, knowing how to do so means fewer negative sales objections and objections you can solve to actually enhance the outcome of the sale.
1) (Really) Listen to the Issue
People like to be heard. That is no different when you're overcoming objections.
And knowing you’re really truly being listened to is vital when it comes to addressing sales objections.
That’s why the first step of The Objection Handling Framework is to listen closely to the buyer when they’re describing their sales objection.
Half listening just won’t cut it here. I don’t care if you think you’ve heard this sales objection 50 times already this week. I don’t care if you’re put-my-life-on-it certain you know what they’re saying after the first few words leave their mouth. And I especially don’t care how much experience you have in the business.
Instead, you need to stop yourself and really listen. Listen to the nuance of what the buyer is telling you is holding them back from closing the sale.
And most importantly, shut the hell up.
Don’t interrupt them with your answer. And give a slight pause after they’ve posed their objection so they know it’s actually sinking in.
Only then can you move on to step number two.
Active Listening Is Key
Active Listening [ak-tiv lis–uhning]; noun:Making a conscious effort to not just hear but really concentrate on listening to what the buyer is saying.
I cannot overstate the value of investing all the time and energy it takes into developing your active listening skills.
Most salespeople are natural-born talkers. It may be why you got into the business in the first place.
But talking too much is detrimental to sales success.
To put a number on things, the sales intelligence platform Gong found the average B2B sales rep spends about 53% of calls talking. For reps in the bottom 20% of performers, that number was closer to 68%. However, top closer spent just 42% of the time talking, leaving a whopping 58% of the talking to the buyer.
Active listening comes with plenty of benefits. Benefits like:
Not missing critical information
Avoiding misunderstandings
Having a better idea of the core problem (not always stated outright)
Showing you care about what the buyer has to say
Improving relationships
Qualifying leads
Next time you run into a sales objection, be sure you consciously engage in active listening. It’s the foundation the rest of this framework is built upon.
2) Repeat the Issue Back Clearly
Now that you’ve put effort into really and genuinely listening to what the buyer is saying, it’s time to move on to the next step of these objection handling techniques—repeating the issue back to the buyer.
It looks as simple as this:
Buyer – “I’m not sure if you can do it in the color I want.”
Seller – “So you’re unsure if we can provide you with the correct color?”
Buyer – “Yes, can you show me the colors you offer, and we’ll see if you have a green?”
It looks pointless, I know. But in reality, there are several reasons why this step is so essential:
It avoids any misunderstandings you may have made on your part.
It shows the buyer you’re listening.
It’s an effective way to deal with knee-jerk sales objections.
The first two points are pretty obvious. So let’s take a closer look at the third point.
Often the buyer will have dealt with so many salespeople over their careers that they will have a bunch of automatic responses (knee-jerk objections) that they give to salespeople to get them out of their hair.
We need to get the buyer’s attention to break these objections. We’ll do this with a pattern interrupt as we repeat back the buyer’s question.
The Value of Pattern Interrupts
All we’re doing with a pattern interrupt is making the buyer think for a split second and then repeating their objection back to them so they can confirm if it’s a real objection or not.
Often, when you use a pattern interrupt as you repeat back the objection, the buyer will think about the objection they brought up and actually dismiss it themselves.
Let me give you an example:
Objection – “I don’t have the budget.”
Pattern Interrupt – “Ah, so you’ve worked with us before, and you know our pricing?”
Here the buyer is trying to use budget as an excuse. But unless you’ve just explicitly told them the pricing, how the heck do they know you’re out of budget?
Here’s another example:
Objection – “I’m not interested.”
PatternInterrupt – “Ah, that’s why we should talk. It sounds like your current supplier must be a pain to work with, and you’re trying to avoid more of that pain by cutting this call short.”
We’re doing two things here.
First, we’re avoiding those usual phrases salespeople typically use (“reaching out,” “checking in,” “I just wanted to,” etc.). If you use the same language as everyone else, you’re going to be ignored like everyone else.
Second, I’m also proactively saying the opposite of what other salespeople do, too. For example, if a buyer gives you the objection “email me the details,” instead of ending the conversation and agreeing to their demand, you’ll use a pattern interrupt of “sure, do you know the details that you want me to send over”?
Pattern interrupts snap buyers out of those automatic responses and makes them receptive to the rest of what you have to say.
Pattern Interrupt + Repeat the Issue
After the pattern interrupt, the last part of this step of the objection handling framework is repeating the objection.
This happens in the same breath as the pattern interrupts itself. For example:
Objection – “I don’t want to be locked into a contract.”
PatternInterrupt / Repeat It Back – “Ah, 100-year contracts are insane. Are long contracts the real hold up here?”
Or another example:
Objection – “I’m happy with [competitor].”
Pattern Interrupt / Repeat It Back – “If they did everything they promised I’d be thrilled with [competitor] too. They’re probably awesome! Is your love for [competitor] the only thing stopping us from booking a meeting?”
See how we’re getting the buyer to confirm that this objection is worth holding up the entire sales process for?
At this point, something remarkable happens. We get one of two responses. Either the buyer confirms that this is a true objection that we need to resolve before we can move forward, or they’ll be happy for us to just move swiftly past it.
3) (Option 1) Solve the Issue
Listening and repeating the sales objection back to the buyer has hopefully clarified whether this is an actual problem or a knee-jerk objection.
People don’t buy when they have genuine concerns. And they sure as hell don’t buy when those concerns go unaddressed.
If it turns out the issue is accurate, then it’s up to you to solve it.
Now, “issue” might be a strong word here. Because, when a buyer offers up a legitimate sales objection, it means two great things for you:
It allows you to demonstrate expertise and earn buyer trust.
It indicates an authentic and strong buying signal (after all, a buyer won’t go through all the steps of an objection if they weren’t seriously considering your product).
So with that knowledge in tow, it’s time to buckle in and simply solve the issue they’re worried about.
If it’s an issue of price, get to talking numbers. If it’s functionality, hit some of the core features. If it’s implementation, talk about your extensive onboarding program.
You should be able to hit each objection the buyer has with a clear, effective response that solves those woes. It also helps to prepare for objections beforehand (time to break out the flashcards?).
Confirm the Issue Is Solved
A short—but entirely necessary—sub-step here.
Once you’ve addressed the issue, it’s up to you to confirm that you’ve satisfied the buyer’s concerns.
This involves confirming your prospect:
Heard your answer
Understood your answer
Accepted your answer
If you don’t complete this step, the buyer will likely bring the same objection up over and over in different forms. Finally, they have to say “yes, that makes sense” out loud. Otherwise, their brain just won’t register that this objection is solved.
This doesn’t have to be aggressive or complex either.
Just ask, “Did this answer your concern [name]?”
If you’ve solved the objection, move forward in the sales process. If you haven’t, ask, “What else is unresolved that I can explain?”
Keep going deeper and deeper until the buyer publicly and verbally admits that their objection has now been solved.
3) (Option 2) Move Past the Issue
If, after repeating the issue, the buyer admits the sales objection they raised wasn’t important, it’s time to move past the issue.
To be honest, not all issues are worth debating. And if you’re confronted with a knee-jerk problem that’s not really important, you can often move straight past these issues during your objection handling process.
I know this might feel sneaky the first few times you do it. But if the buyer has thrown out the sales objection unconsciously, they probably barely know the excuse they gave you.
If when you repeat the objection back to them, they look at you blankly or don’t give an immediate response, just say this:
“That makes sense. Let’s come back to that in a minute. We also do…”
And then carry on through the selling conversation. Unless the buyer actively brings you back to the objection, you can likely never discuss it again. Because remember, it wasn’t of any fundamental importance to the buyer.
You’re going to find that, once you learn to recognize them, around 50% of the objections that you get day-to-day can be skipped over just like this.
Common Sales Objections & Responses
As I mentioned earlier, it pays to study common sales objections for your product and come to calls with your responses ready.
Now, you may be wondering, “How am I supposed to know exactly what kinds of sales objections the buyer will have? Aren’t all buyers different?”
And that’s true; there are plenty of variations out there. But in general, you can boil down nearly all sales objections into one of four categories:
Budget
Value
Urgency
Trust
I’ve written extensively about the most common sales objections before. But for now, let’s take a look at some of the best sales objection handling examples and objection handling scripts to help you overcome buyer concerns.
“The price is too high.”
Objection Type: Budget
Ah, the pricing objection…
This is most likely going to be the most common objection you’ll face. Business is money. And money is essential.
This one really really test your objection handling skills.
Responses
Compare the cost of not solving the issue to the price of your product.
“How much is [the problem you solve] costing you each month?”
[Follow-Up] You said this problem costs your business about [$X] per month, but our service is just [$Y] per month, leading to savings of [$X – $Y] per month.”
Use price ranges to qualify leads and keep the conversation going.
“Our price is within the [$ range] range per month. Where in that range could you see yourself investing in solving [the problem].
“We’re happy with your competitor.”
Objection Type: Value
This is the old “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it” mentality at play. Change can be tough. And most people are naturally resistant towards it.
However, that doesn’t mean putting effort into that change isn’t worth it. Sometimes all the buyer needs is to take a minute or two to learn about your product.
Response
Give a light nudge for the buyer to compare options by offering a free trial or demo.
“I completely understand where you’re coming from. Many businesses are constantly looking at other potential solutions to their problems; even it is just to compare with what they have now. Who knows, we may be a better match. How would you feel about attending a product demo to see how we compare?
“This is not a priority for us right now.”
Objection Type: Urgency
This is tricky because it’s a sign of a blow-off, it’s truly not on their to-do list right now, or they don’t fully understand the value.
As a result, there are a few ways you can handle this one.
Response
Narrow down the real reason behind the objection.
“If money and resources were no object, would you be willing to start with our product today?”
[If no, there’s no hope. If yes, then dig deeper to discover the real objections.]
Ask them straight up.
“When would be a good time to buy?”
“What are your company’s other priorities right now?”
Take time out of the picture.
“If I call you back next quarter, what circumstances will have changed?”
“I’ve never heard of your company.”
Objection Type: Trust
This type of sales objection indicates a lack of trust. But don’t abandon the call just yet, no matter how embarrassing it might be.
Instead, take this objection as an opportunity to give them a bit more information about the value you offer.
Response
Ask if it’s okay to give them a quick elevator pitch highlighting your organization’s authority.
“No problem! Lots of our loyal customers hadn’t heard of us before they signed up. Does it make sense for me to explain the value that we can bring to your business?”
“Email me more info and I’ll get back to you.”
Objection Type: Urgency
This is often a blow-off move. In most cases, the buyer is just looking to get rid of you. But that in no way means the conversation has to be over.
Instead, use a pattern interrupt to keep the conversation going.
Response
Keep the conversation moving forward with a pattern interrupt.
“I can do that. What particular details are you interested in learning more about?”
[You can then give the buyer more insight into the details they list right over the phone. This keeps the buyer engaged and opens the door for more opportunities to further the sale.]
“This won’t work for us.”
Objection Type: Budget, Need, Urgency, or Trust
A jack of all trades with this one!
This sales objection is a smokescreen. And on its own, it isn’t telling you anything about the situation.
Your goal here is to eke out exactly why your product won’t work for the buyer.
Response
Get more information and address the new sales objections one by one.
“Can you elaborate on why you don’t think this will be a fit?”
[They’ll likely respond with some variation of the four sales objections discussed above. From there, just use the appropriate response and follow the framework.]
Wrapping Up
At first blush, a sales objection can seem like a dealbreaker. From price point ultimatums to savvily sly brush-offs, running into these pesky problems can leave you wondering, “where’d I go wrong?”
But when you’re a pro at objection handling, you can turn these dire situations around completely.
The sales objection process can even make closing the deal more likely. You just have to know what you’re doing.
And with this time-tested objection handling framework, you can do precisely that. Just:
(Really) Listen to the Issue
Repeat the Issue Back Clearly
(Option 1) Solve the Issue
Confirm the Issue Is Solved
OR
(Option 2) Move Past the Issue
Using these objection handling techniques, you can demonstrate your knowledge, bolster your authority, and build some serious trust with your buyers.
And in the end, that means you’ll be closing more deals, earning more loyal clients, and building a more prosperous, lucrative career for yourself.
How We’re Making Outbound Selling Simple In 2022
Jan 17, 2022
In this short podcast episode I explain what we did right and wrong in 2021. Then we get into what we've got in store across 2022 as we look to expand our sales training platform.
8 Sales Closing Questions and Statements That Actually Work
Dec 31, 2021
It's happening again.
Your prospect is postponing the deal. However, they seemed interested during the demo and were enthusiastic about your product, so why don't they sign the contract?
Closing deals is one of the more nerve-wracking aspects of being a sales professional. There's always a chance your deal won't pan out. Anything can go wrong.
However, staying silent isn't an option.
You need to ask for the sale. Wrap up your closing process by asking closing questions and statements that make the deal final.
Before Sales Closing Lines and Questions Come Transition Statements
Your closing question or sentence goes beyond words. Your body language, tone, voice, and the quality of your offering also come into play.
Most sales professionals forego these transition statements and their prospects feel like they're getting beaten over the head with an aggresive close.
But instead of going headfirst into the closing conversation, you should use a sales transition statement that sets the stage for your close. Here are my top eight sales transition statements:
“Let's reiterate what you've told me so far.” (Recap your prospect's pain points, budget, and ideal timeframe for purchase. Then position your product as the perfect solution to their problems.)
“Let's go over the details. “
“I don't want your company to lose (negative consequence) simply because they didn't have the right solution and place. Do you want to take immediate steps to stop this from happening?”
“Based on our conversation, it seems like (your product) is a good fit for (prospect's company). What do you think?
“Are you ready to move forward? I can send over the contract right away. “
“And if we implement by (date), I think you can start seeing ROI by (date). This means we need to close sales by (date). Is that enough time for you to make a decision?”
“So what happens next? “
“Based on your requirements and preferences, I think these two products would be an excellent fit for (prospect's company). Would you like to go with (Product X) or (Product Y)?
Notice how none of the statements are aggressive and make the prospect uncomfortable. Use any of the above statements to transition your conversation to a closing conversation without sounding salesy.
These statements set you up in a position of a trusted advisor and must come before any closing scripts.
Now that you know how to set the stage, let's discuss some of my favorite actionable closing questions and closing statements.
8 Best Sales Closing Questions and Statements to Close More Deals
If you've ever wondered what questions to ask when closing a sale, here are a few tried-and-tested ones to ease the tension and maintain the flow of your sales interaction.
1) “Does it make sense to… “
If you've been following my Salesman.org podcast or blog, you may already know about my simple two-step closing technique. If you haven't, here's what you need to do: ask the prospect “Does it make sense to (next step).”
For instance, “Does it make sense to sign you up into our system and get the implementation started?” Or “Does it make sense to sign the contract right now? ”
Get it? The prospect will want to coach you here and tell you what you need to do next to get the deal done. You can learn more about the technique here.
2) “So, you like the product, what it can do for your company, and you (hopefully) like me—all that's left is to make it official.”
This can be a perfect closing phrase to use if you share a strong rapport with your prospect. It's confident and polite with a touch of humor, but more importantly, it reinforces the prospect that your product will make their life easier. What reason is there for them not to buy your solution?
That said, this statement may not work if your prospect has previously objected to any part of your sales pitch. You risk coming off as arrogant if you claim your prospect likes your product just after they express any doubts.
3) “Would you like my help with (prospect's problem)? “
If the above sounds too much for you, simply ask the prospect if they want your help and if they want you to be the one that solves their problem.
This way, you can state your intention to them and uncover any potential doubts and concerns the prospect may have about you and your company. You also prove to the prospect your end goal is to help them, helping you win their trust and, therefore, close more deals.
4) “If you are ready to sign the contract, we can… “
One of the main reasons this closing statement works is that it tells the prospect exactly how they can benefit by implementing your solution. You can also introduce a conditional clause to further reinforce the actual value of your product, which is the ultimate positive consequence of those benefits (Increase productivity, saving time, lowering overheads).
5) “Is there any reason, if we gave you the product at this price, you wouldn't do business with our company? “
This right here is the ultimate soft-close sales closing question.
Geoffrey James advises sales reps to use this closing question when trying to close deals as it ensures the sales conversion between you and the prospect keeps going.
If the prospect answers ‘No, ‘you've still got them to agree to the contract indirectly. If the answer is ‘Yes, ‘you can address their objections without blowing off the deal.
Clever, right?
6) “Unless you have any more questions or concerns, I think you're ready to get started.”
This statement leaves the door open for your prospect to get more information while giving them that push to sign on the dotted line.
If you've done an excellent job at communicating your product or service's value, as well as resolving all sales objections and doubts, throughout the sales process, the prospect will give you the final go-ahead.
7) “If I were to send over the contract today, would you be confident signing? “
This is kinda risky since you put yourself in the position to hear the dreaded “Yes, but…”.
‘Buts' aren't good. They're an objection. But they are also questions that you can understand and solve, improving your chances of securing the deal.
This closing question can make the prospect realize they don't have any further objections or concerns and are ready to buy. Plus, it'll tell you exactly where you stand with your prospect.
8) “Our product will help you (benefit) by/in (specific number/date). The sooner we get it done, the more you'll get out of it, so let's get started. “
Your prospect is only interested in results, so it makes sense your closing statement should reinforce exactly that—results from your offering.
However, you have to identify some value adds for your prospect for this to work. This can be money or time—or anything else—that makes the prospect see the worth of investing. Then, encourage them to take action and improve the outcome of the investment by creating a sense of urgency.
The next time you feel your prospect is putting the deal on hold, remember there's (almost) always a question or statement to a close.
The Best Way to Answer ‘Sell Me This Pen’ in an Interview
Dec 30, 2021
“Sell me this pen, “says the interviewer.
Sitting for your sales job interview, the question isn't unexpected. You knew the interview was likely to ask it, but the question is how to tackle it in a way that gets you the job.
What's the right approach?
“It's a matter of supply and demand” was The Wolf of the Wall Street sell me this pen answer.
It's clever, but not perfect. In fact, the real-life Jordan Bellfort (you know, the person on whose life the movie is based off) had a very different answer:
“The real answer is, before I'm even going to sell a pen to anybody, I need to know about the person, I want to know what their needs are, what kind of pens do they use, do they use a pen? How often do they use a pen? Do they like to use a pen formally, to sign things, or use it in their everyday life? The first idea is that when you say ‘Sell me this pen,' I want to hear [the salesman] ask me a question. ”
So how do you effectively answer a “sell me something”interview question?
If you have to answer questions, what kind of questions should you ask? Do you talk about its features? What can you do to make the sale? This Salesman.org guide will cover all the details.
How to Tackle the Sell Me This Pen Interview Question
The thing is, the statement “sell me this pen” doesn't mean “sell me this pen.”
Shocked? Most sales professionals are.
Let me explain.
Sell me this pen is a ‘blanket term' statement. In addition to the obvious, the interviewer also means:
Can you identify the right person for the product?
Do you know how to understand your client's needs?
Do you have basic sales skills like relationship building?
Can you establish urgency?
How can you close sales effectively?
You have to show the interviewer you have all these skills and will make an asset to the company. And the best way to do this is just as Bellfort suggests: asking (relevant) questions.
Very few salespeople understand this going into the interview.
The best salespeople do their research though and are prepared for when the sell me this pen question comes up.
Sales questions help you establish your credibility as a sales professional. For instance, asking what kind of pens the interviewer likes and for what purpose does the interviewer uses the pens can prove you have an essential sales skill—empathy.
On the other hand, if you start blabbering about the pen's features, sometimes even lying about it, you show the interviewer that you're a liar.
Knowing how long the interviewer has wanted the pen is a good start, but they might just answer they don't want a pen just to watch you squirm. In this case, you'll have to do a quick qualifying session and establish their needs before aiming for a close.
To help you hold strong sales conversations with your interviewer, the next section will cover a few sales discussion examples.
How to Answer Sell Me This Pen Interview Question
Let's examine potential discussions you can have with your interview to showcase your selling skills.
1) To Qualify a Lead
Interviewer: Sell me this pen.
You: How long have you wanted to buy a pen?
Interviewer: I don't want to.
You: Okay, but do you ever buy pens?
Interviewer: We have an admin to handle that.
You: Awesome! What do you think is more important to her: cost or quality?
Interviewer: Not sure.
You: I'd love to talk to her to learn more. In the past, I have helped my clients save over 20-30% on pens, depending on their quality range. Does it make sense to set up a call?
2) To Establish Need
Interviewer: Sell me this pen.
You: How long have you wanted to buy a pen?
Interviewer: Just a few hours ago.
You: Do you use pens for daily tasks? Or do you only use them during important business deals? Would you say you borrow a pen a lot?
3) To Learn About a Prospect's Time and Timeline
Interviewer: Sell me this pen.
You: How long have you wanted to buy a pen?
Interviewer: Mine just ran out of ink.
You: That's sad. Would you mind if I leave this bed with you? If you don't like it, I will come back in five days and you won't have to pay a cent.
4) To Identify the Interviewer's Specific Needs
Interviewer: Sell me this pen.
You: Do you need a pen?
Interviewer: Yes.
You: Do you want a ballpoint pen or a gel pen? Also, which ink color do you prefer: blue, red, or black?
5) Closing The Deal
While your discussion can take any direction, it'll likely be similar to the above examples. After showing the interviewer you can qualify customers and identify their needs, your job is to make them see you can also do the most critical job of selling: closing the deal.
Let me explain using one of the examples we covered above.
Interviewer: Sell me this pen.
You: How long have you wanted to buy a pen?
Interviewer: Just a few hours ago.
You: Do you use pens for daily tasks? Or do you only use them during important business deals? Would you say you borrow a pen a lot?
Interviewer: We use it for everyday tasks and often borrow pens.
You: I think this pen's a great fit for you as it's created for everyday use. It's a plain blue ink ballpoint that lasts longer and doesn't bleed, making it great for note-taking and document signing. Should I put you down for three boxes?
Or you can do something like this:
Interviewer: Sell me this pen.
You: Do you need a pen?
Interviewer: Yes.
You: Do you want a ballpoint pen or a gel pen? Also, which ink color do you prefer: blue, red, or black?
Interviewer: I want a blue gel pen.
You: Looks like this pen here is just what you need. It's a blue gel pen that feels comfortable in hands and is perfect for signing contracts or jotting down notes. Should I consider this a done deal?
A job interview for sales isn't just about being clever and confident—you'll also need to prove your abilities as a salesman. By asking sales questions, you can show (and confirm) your sales knowledge and skills to the interviewer more effectively, improving your chances of landing the job.
Alternative Approaches: When Your Interviewer Is Looking for a ‘Wow' Moment
Some interviewers are simply looking for a wow moment—a straightforward answer that knocks their socks off.
In this case, asking sales questions may not cut it. It's likely they saw The Wolf of the Wall Street and thought the question sounded cool.
Naturally, you'll have to change your tactic if that's the case. Here's what you can do:
A) Make a Sales Pitch That Focuses on How the Pen Meets Customer Needs
“Have you suffered a loss because you forgot important tasks you didn't write down on your to-do list? Have you ever had to sign a contract or write a cheque but didn't have the tools to do so?
Allow me to introduce this pen that will help you write down critical tasks in a jiffy. Its ink is reliable and long-lasting and comes in an easily portable and modern pen design to give you the perfect grip.
Write at all hours of the day seven days a week without worrying about hand pain…”
You get the drift. Pitch the pen to the interviewer, highlighting its key features and benefits in an impactful manner.
B) Have an Interactive and Actionable Approach
I've read about many people's take on the ‘sell me this pen' question. Here's my favorite:
An applicant took out a check from his pocket and wrote a $250 check. However, he kept the name blank. He handed the check to the interviewer saying, “Wouldn't it be great if you had a pen right now? ”
A wow moment right there, guys!
More Sales Interview Tips and Tricks to Impress Your Interviewer
Below are some additional tips to help you answer and sell me the pen more confidently. Let's take a quick look.
Don't get flustered when addressing counters from your interviewer. Keep your cool and focus on addressing the concerns.
Always put up a confident front, even if you don't have an answer in hand. Work your way through your answer while maintaining eye contact and speaking clearly.
Your main purpose is to prove to the interviewer they need the pen. So don't be afraid to ask questions and dig deeper.
Call attention to the pen's benefits and features—whatever you think can help it sell. The idea is to create a distinct value proposition in the interviewer's eyes.
Always end your conversation on a strong note to leave a lasting impression. Avoid weak statements like, “So, um, yeah. That's how I'd do it. “
Maintain a persuasive, confident, and fun body language and tone of voice—all the while focusing your conversation on how the pen addresses the client's needs.
Want more fantastic selling tips? Get started here and empower yourself to boost morale and land better sales jobs.
Learn How To Describe Your Sales Experience and Secure That Job
Dec 27, 2021
“Describe your sales experience?”
“Tell me more about your sales experience.”
“How many years of experience do you have in sales?”
Your employer will have questions concerning your selling experience to assess your ability to do the sales role you're applying for.
How you choose to respond is going to make or break your interview. It's going to secure or lose you that dream sales position.
Obviously, you need to demonstrate you have the sales skills that make you the right fit for their company. But the question is how do you develop these skills and prove them to the interviewer? And how do you still land the job if you don't have any previous experience?
Only one way to find out… keep reading.
First and Foremost, What Counts as Sales Experience?
Sales experience is a summary of your history of selling products or services to other people. It indicates the level of your soft and hard skills as a salesperson.
The concept of sales experience isn't very complicated. For instance, if you ever sold a pen to your friend as a kid, you have sales experience. This is because you proved to your friend buying the pen would make their life more accessible than before, successfully convincing them to give you their money.
Of course, this won't hold up when applying for sales jobs.
Your sales manager will want a more fitting sales experience resume, which is why you'll need traditional sales experiences. This can be you working as a cashier at a retail store or acting as the account manager for a local business.
Here are a few more sales experience examples:
Real estate broker
Insurance agent
Product promoter or demonstrator
Owning a travel agency
If the above descriptions don't fit the bill, no biggie. We'll tell you how to get some.
3 Effective Tips To Get Sales Experience
Despite popular belief, getting sales experience isn't that complicated. All you need is determination and be open to starting from scratch.
Below, we've compiled some practical ways to get experience and begin developing your professional skills.
1) Sign Up for a Sales Course
If you have the means to sign up for a sales course, webinar, or training program, we highly recommend doing it right away. Each option is an excellent way to get sales experience to make a good impression on the hiring manager.
A sales course or training program gives you a platform to learn the basics of effective selling and engage in various sales activities, such as role-playing and grievance handling, to become a more seasoned sales professional. You also get the opportunity to make mistakes and learn from them and build actionable skills that can help you further your career.
After completing a business to business sales training course like the Selling Made Simple Academy you're going to better understand –
The modern B2B sales process
Communication skills
How to develop customer relationships
Specific sales tools
Another advantage here is the chance to make professional connections in the sales field that can again help you land a better sales job in the future.
2) Read a Good Sales Book
The good thing about sales representative roles is you'll find several experts eager and willing to share their advice and relevant sales experience with the world. Most of them have written sales books that detail effective selling strategies and contain genuinely good advice to help you become a successful professional.
The popular sales books are generally centered around specific types of sales philosophies, such as SNAP selling or MEDDIC selling, as well as more general topics like the psychology of closing deals or building sales influence.
Wether you're looking at a sales development representative role or even a regional sales manager job, there will be a book for you.
There is a lot to learn when it comes to sales, and getting your hands on best-selling sales books can be your shortcut to selling success.
3) Get a Sales Job
A surefire way (and most obvious) way to get sales experience is getting a sales job. You get to engage with real-life customers, learn the art of selling yourself, make contacts and have good conversations — all while getting paid.
Sounds like a pretty good deal, right?
That said, you don't have to get a sales job at a large firm. Instead, you can start smaller in a retail position, where you can interact with customers and slowly make your way up to different positions to gain experience and skills.
How to Answer “Describe Your Sales Experience” Interview Question
Once you get the required sales experience, you will have to convince the hiring manager you're indeed a good fit for the job.
Here are a few tips to help you prove your selling potential and expertise:
A) Structure Your Answer Carefully
Your answer should highlight relevant skills, experiences, and achievements from previous jobs.
Emphasis on “relevant.”
Your interviewer only needs to know information that's directly connected to the job—nothing else. So keep your response brief and to the point to maintain their attention and not waste time. Try to finish your answer by describing your goals related to the sales role and how you plan on contributing to the employer's objectives.
The idea is to pitch yourself in a way that makes you an asset to the interviewer.
B) Emphasize Your Sales Achievements
Did you close more deals than your peers at your previous job? Or maybe you were awarded ‘The Best Salesman ‘title many times? Perhaps got a promotion within months of joining?
Be sure to highlight your achievements in previous roles. We kid you not; tell your hiring manager everything and in detail. They want to know more about your skills to determine whether you'll be a good fit for the job.
What's more, you should try to quantify these experiences and achievements when possible. For example, talk about the dollar amount of sales or the rate you grew the sales within a specific period to prove their value.
Alternatively, you can mention the number of accounts you've worked with to showcase your ability to manage multiple clients simultaneously.
C) Practice Your Response
At this stage, you should have a script describing your sales experience. Now, all that's left is to practice and master it.
While you don't have to memorize the script word for word, you do want to cover critical points you want to make. Plus, the more you practice, the more comfortable you'll feel about what to say—and say it confidently.
Tips to Tackle the Sales Experience Question When You Have No Sales Experience
Everyone has to start somewhere.
Don't feel disheartened if you don't have any real-world sales experience—you can still land the job. Admittedly, it isn't a walk in a park, but it's possible if you follow the proper steps.
A) Make Your Existing Skills Relevant To the Job
Leverage your existing skills in a way that makes them relevant to the job you're looking to get during the interview. For instance, if you're working as a service rep, talk about how you have significant experience communicating with customers and handling their queries.
Remember, nobody has all the expected skills and experience listed in a job description. If you can demonstrate how your existing skills are transferable to the sales role in your resume, cover letter, and when answering interview questions, you can improve your chances of securing the job.
B) Avoid Common Interview Mistakes
To start off, don't be late. Think about it: what would you say if you were late to a sales meeting with a prospect? What do you think your chances would be of closing that deal?
You also don't want to show up unprepared. Treat the interview as a sales meeting, where you try to sell yourself instead of a product or service. Find out all key details about the company you're applying to, and if possible, the person who will be taking your interview.
C) Leverage Your Network
Networking can be beneficial to start your sales career when you have little to no experience.
If you've taken a professional sales course, you might already have professional connections with leaders and teachers who may be aware of sales opportunities and can put in a word for you. We also recommend using LinkedIn and attending industry-relevant events, where you can network with other sales leaders and build connections.
D) Apply To Businesses That Offer Training Programs
Businesses know many applicants are starting from square one. That's why they're open to hiring people with limited sales experience and offer training programs for beginners.
Try to apply for jobs at these companies. This way, you can learn on the job, get the necessary experience you're looking for, and move up within the same company once the program ends.
Want to learn more tips to secure a higher-paying and fulfilling sales job? Get started here and learn the latest selling tips and tactics to become a better sales professional.
5-Step Cold Calling Framework For Simple, Consistent Wins
Dec 24, 2021
Another month's gone by. Despite all the cold emails you've sent, the phone still isn't ringing. And now, you're left scrambling to make your quota.
Something's got to change, and you know it.
It's a story all too familiar to sales reps. But, unfortunately, the same ol' tactics just aren't working anymore. And though you've avoided the technique for years, it's finally time for…
“Cold calling and objection handling are usually the two biggest fears that I hear when we work with sales teams and individual reps.”
But cold calling doesn't have to be complicated. It doesn't have to be intimidating. And it doesn't have to leave you feeling like a sleazy, manipulative conman.
This guide shows how to make cold calling your go-to method for prospecting. Inside, you'll learn expert cold calling tips, proven cold calling scripts, and a 5-point framework to take all the guesswork (and hassle) out of cold calling.
What Is Cold Calling?
First and foremost, let's settle on a cold-calling definition.
What Is Cold Calling?
“Cold calling is the act of reaching out to potential buyers that have not previously interacted with a sales rep.”
Cold calling usually refers to solicitation by phone. But it may also refer to in-person sales visits.
What Is Cold Calling NOT?
“Cold calling is not reaching out to contacts you met at trade shows. It is not contacting a lead that expressed interest on your website. And it is not following up with a referral that asked you to get in touch. This is what's known as “warm calling.”
By its very nature, cold calling has a lower success rate than warm calling. After all, cold calling recipients haven't expressed any prior interest in what you're selling. Those on the other end of warm calls have.
It's no wonder why so many sales reps avoid cold calling—it's tough to get a “yes.”
In fact, a study from the Harvard Business Review found that 48% of B2B salespeople—nearly half—are afraid of cold calling.
So, with all that fear and anxiety baked into this sales technique for many reps, the question is why do it at all?
Why Cold Call?
Simple.
Despite it all, cold calling provides a valuable opportunity to bring in new clients that other sales techniques can't offer.
Here's why.
Quick Connection – Hopping on a call is the best way to make an immediate connection and start with a sales pitch. Email is static. Sure, you're delivering your message. But buyers have time to mull it over, make excuses for not responding, and forget about it entirely. When you're on the phone, you have much more direct influence over whether they set up a sales meeting or not.
Develops Sales Cadence – Successful cold calls are an integral step to setting up a strategic and effective sales cadence. The best sales cadences use a variety of outreach methods when contacting prospects. The more mediums you use to stay in contact with the buyer, the more you stay top of mind—boosting your chances of a callback.
Opens the Door to Chatters – Finally, adding cold calling to your sales technique repertoire brings in a swathe of potential buyers. Buyers that may have otherwise been out of reach. HubSpot reports that 57% of C-level buyers actually prefer to be contacted via phone. And if you aren't cold calling, you could be missing out on a valuable opportunity to bring in more sales.
Getting Started: Perfecting Your Mental Game
Before you even start dialing, you need to get in the right headspace.
Prospects can tell when you're uncomfortable. And they don't want to waste their precious time chatting with someone who isn't offering any value.
That's why you have to get comfortable playing two roles when cold calling: The Entertainer and The Expert. Some cold callers do this naturally. Other people on the same sales team will have to practice this new state.
Role 1: The Entertainer
Your task of rapport building begins the instant your prospect picks up the phone. The sooner you can capture their attention, the more likely they'll be to keep on listening.
In fact, Gong found that low-performing salespeople built rapport by around 40% through the call. For top performers, it was about 20% (the earlier, the better).
You need to come across as someone the buyer genuinely wants to speak to. Only then can you show them how you can add value to their lives.
Your sales conversation need to be tight, fun and snappy.
Role 2: The Expert
While charisma can open up the door, not knowing what you're talking about will slam it shut.
You need to come off as an expert—someone who knows what the hell they're talking about. But, do you understand your buyer's industry? Their most significant pain points? Your competition? And, of course, your product?
If you don't come across as an expert, the prospect might as well hang up the phone and Google their problem rather than speak to you.
How to Play Both Roles
The problem, however, is that cold calling gives you so little time to flex your charm muscles. To demonstrate your deep, deep knowledge of the industry.
So how are you supposed to play The Entertainer and The Expert in a call that only lasts a few minutes?
By displaying these key four traits:
Assertive – You don't wait for things to “just happen.” And you're happy to ask appropriate but tough questions because you know that that's the only way to get to the heart of the problem and deliver the most value possible.
Extroverted – You don't shy away from a conversation. You're energized by interacting with others. You do find your buyers interesting. And as a result, you build rapport quickly and maintain contacts for years.
Optimistic – No one likes hearing a pitch from a sad sack. And equally importantly, no buyer believes the product their seller is so unenthusiastic about will solve their problems. You also have to exude the optimism that this call will be the next winner. The buyer on the other end can sense it if not.
Confident – And of course, you need to be confident in your product, your company, and yourself. You need to be resilient in the face of rejection (which, let's face it, will happen with cold calling). And you need to know that you're good enough and a “no” isn't personal.
These traits are part of the 12 SalesCode traits I cover in the Selling Made Simple Academy. And inside, you'll learn how to quickly and effectively display these traits to hook cold calling prospects more straightforward than ever.
Let's Start the Show: The Bulletproof Cold Calling Framework
Now that you're in the right headspace, it's time to dive into The Bulletproof Cold Calling Framework. It's composed of five simple steps:
Confirm
Break
Value
Tie-In
Close
This framework is simple, effective, and adaptable in any situation. Plus, it's short enough to fit into the tiny window of time you have to hook a prospect when cold calling.
Let's take a closer look at what these steps entail, along with some cold-calling scripts for each.
Cold Calling Tip:
It's important to remember that your goal here is NOT to sell your product on this call. If you're selling anything of reasonable value, you should know that that's impossible in a single five-minute conversation.
Instead, your end goal is to set up a later sales meeting. Only then will you spend the time pitching your product and trying to close the sale. If you do try a full-on pitch during a cold call, you're likely going to fail. And fail hard.
Step 1: Confirm
The first and maybe most essential step is to confirm you're speaking with the right person—the decision-maker.
This may be the head of the department, the tech guy, or even the President of Marketing. It depends entirely on your industry and your product.
But whoever it is, it's ideal that you're talking to the person who decides whether or not to buy. Otherwise, you'll have to sell to a gatekeeper who then has to go back and sell to their boss. And your product's actual value is bound to be diluted along the way (think of the kids game, Telephone).
So immediately when someone's picked up the call, make sure you're talking to a decision-maker.
Cold Calling Script:
“Hi, Will Barron from Salesman.org. Who's in charge of [X – the area of business your product will help the most. We'll use sales for these examples]?”
Scenario 1: “That's me.” — Now you can move on to the next step
Scenario 2: “That's Barry.” — Now we need to get in touch with Barry.
“Ok thanks. Could you connect me with him? Can I tell them that you referred me?” — Move to next step with Barry. Make sure not to skip the referral aspect here. Noting a referral creates an instant boost in rapport.
Step 2: Break
Now that you've confirmed you're speaking to the right person, it's time to jump into the specifics.
Ask them how they're currently solving the problem that your product solves. You'll find that most people aren't 100% happy with their current solution. It can always be faster. It can always be cheaper. And it can always be more effective.
Your goal here is to open up the buyer's mind to the potential of a better solution. You're breaking them out of the pattern of thinking their current solution can't be changed.
Cold Calling Script:
“OK great, how are you training your sales reps right now?”
“We are using [competitor].”
“Got it. And how is your sales training working for you right now?”
Scenario 1: “Not great. We're having a problem with [current problem].”
Scenario 2: “Fine. I think we're all set, thanks.”
When you ask how their current solution is doing now, pause and shut up. Don't say anything. They'll feel compelled to speak. And from there, you can either learn that they're looking for a better solution or force them to bring up an objection which you can touch on later.
Step 3: Value
The next step is to explain the big problem you solve, your value. Again, it's important to hit this step regardless of whether they are happy or unhappy with their current solution.
Be succinct here. There is no need to get into the weeds and take up more time than necessary.
Just hit the most prominent problem solver and the most significant selling point you have.
Cold Calling Tip:
Be sure to move on to this step regardless of the objection they offer.
If they say, “We're happy with our current solution,” push through. They may be more open to new solutions than they seem. If they say, “I don't really have time for this right now,” you only have three more sentences to get through (15 seconds max).
The end goal is to get to a closing point and to ask for a meeting.
Cold Calling Script:
“We help salespeople close more sales in the next 28 days or your money back.”
Step 4: Tie-In
Next up, you need to tie-in that value to the prospect.
How is your big solution going to help them? What kinds of benefits can they expect to see from working with you?
Essentially, why should they care?
Again, be quick and to the point here. Make the connection, but don't dilly dally because we need to get to the next and most crucial step.
Cold Calling Script:
Scenario 1: “It seems like you're not happy with your current sales training solution. Would it make sense to see if we can solve this problem for you?”
Scenario 2: “Would it make sense to see if we can turbocharge your current solution so you can train more effective sales reps more quickly?”
Step 5: Close
Last and certainly not least, you'll want to close the call by setting up a sales meeting.
Again, the point here is to book a formal meeting, not to close the sale.
That being said, it's not as if you can't still learn some valuable information from this cold call. For instance, you may get an idea of the buyer's significant concerns with their current solution. You're also likely to learn about what their current solution is.
Both of these points can be exceptionally valuable when figuring out how to structure your pitch for maximum effectiveness.
“Cold calling is a lousy place to make a sale. But it happens to be a great place to learn how to sell.”
Cold Calling Script:
“Ok Great, it looks like we might be able to help. Does it make sense to jump on a quick 10-minute call tomorrow to discuss?”
Cold Calling Tip:
Unfortunately, a “no” here is likely. Cold calling involves a lot of rejection. But there are a few things you can do to still make this a win.
First, give them your contact info and tell them if they change their mind; they're always welcome to reach out.
Second, get their contact info too. Some buyers will take longer to pique their interest. And with their email info on hand, you can continually send them educational content and turn them from “not interested” to “I'm listening…”
Voicemail: What to Say & How to Say It
The Bulletproof Cold Calling Framework is a fantastic way to engage prospects quickly, demonstrate value, and nudge potential buyers to set up a good, follow-up sales call.
But what happens if your call goes to voicemail?
This can end up being tricky. You can't play off of the buyer's answers to your questions. And you've got to get them especially interested in what you have to say so they don't hit that delete button.
There are a few things you can do here to boost your callback chances.
Keep it short, under 30 seconds if you can.
Follow the 70/30 rule: 70% info and value, 30% personalization, and social proof.
Be particularly clear with your contact details.
Cold Calling Script:
“Hey Sarah, Will Barron from Salesman.org 111.222.3333 (repeat your number slower) – I'm calling because I was reading your LinkedIn profile and noticed you're [insert role detail]. I wanted to tell you about a product relevant to your work there. We have helped [X company] drive a [quantifiable outcome] in under [time frame] by [very short explanation of how your product works]. Again, Will Barron from Salesman.org 111.222.3333 (repeat your number slower), I'll follow up with a quick email.”
Cold Calling Tip:
I know every sales guru in the land tells you to save your name and number for the end. Do the opposite.
This is what's known as “pattern interrupt.” There are 6 MILLION AEs and 600k SDRs in tech right now. And guess what? They all save their name and number for the end. Sodo the opposite.
And remember to be assertive, confident, and direct. Yes, you're selling them a product. But it's a product that can help. And it's their job to help make their business better, so they should actually want to listen.
The Follow Up
An essential part of the voicemail is the email follow-up.
Yes, yes—you already reached out to them on the phone.
And yes, your email follow-up is essentially saying the same thing you covered in the voicemail.
But the point here is to hit them on a variety of mediums. A voicemail is easy to forget. And it's a snap to delete accidentally.
You're making a bigger imprint on the buyer's consciousness with an added email follow-up. And you're also giving them something they can refer back to later to learn more about your product.
Cold Calling Script (for Your Follow-Up Email):
Hi Sarah,
This is Will Barron from Salesman.org. I'm following up on a voicemail message I left on your machine earlier today.
I'm getting in touch because I was reading your LinkedIn profile and noticed you're [insert role detail]. I wanted to tell you about a product relevant to your work there.
We have helped [X company] drive a [quantifiable outcome] in under [time frame] by [concise explanation of how your product works].
Does it make sense for us to connect?
If so, you can reach me at 111.222.3333 or shoot me a quick email.
Cheers,
Will
Consistency & Persistence: Learn to Play the Numbers
An essential aspect of your cold calling success is that you learn to play the numbers.
Many factors go into making or breaking a sale, such as building rapport, researching prospects, playing to pain points, using a value-based sales approach, etc.
But when it comes down to packing your pipeline full of leads, you must use a numbers-based approach when cold calling.
How many deals do you need to close a month? How many leads do you need to pitch to in order to bring in those deals? And how many calls do you need to make a week to bring in those leads?
Selling by the numbers lets you set goals and be strategic about your cold calling process.
There are a few things, in particular, you can do to make your cold calling more effective.
A) Track Successes & Failures
When you sell by the numbers, you're not just developing clear, actionable goals. And you aren't just breaking down your quotas into bite-size pieces.
You're also giving yourself the framework you need to more effectively track your successes, failures, and progress towards achieving your ultimate goal.
For instance, let's say you need to close 15 more sales this month. If you're selling by the numbers, you know that means you have to make at least 80 more cold calls according to your current close rates. And with that information, you can determine how many calls you need to make each week.
If you weren't selling by the numbers, you wouldn't have any idea how much you should be cold calling to hit your quota. And likelier than not, you'll only find out how far behind you are when it's much too late.
B) Stick With It!
On the one hand, effective cold calling is a skill that takes about 2 to 3 months to develop. That may seem like a long time right now. But when you get the process down to a science, you're going to start hitting your goals (or even exceeding them) more often than ever.
Even when you do develop those skills, though, successful cold calling takes work. And it takes resilience.
Michael Hanson of Growth Genie pointed out the low connect rate for cold calls in my recent interview. And that means you have to stick with the plan to start seeing results.
“Typically the connect rate for a cold call, and I think this data comes from a company called ConnectAndSell who've analyzed millions of calls through their dialer, is I think on average, about 4%. So that means literally you need to call someone over 20 times to get them to pick up once.”
So you must develop the resilience to stick with the plan. The best way to keep your motivation up and blow past your quotas is to use The Selling By the Numbers Framework.
Wrapping Up
Cold calling can be intimidating at first. And if you've been hesitant to use this sales technique till now, you're not alone in the world of sales. Plenty of reps avoid it.
But when you know how to do it effectively, it can open up the door to a wealth of potential buyers. And it can connect you with leads on a level that no other sales avenue can.
This framework was designed to be simple, effective, and flexible. And once you implement it into your sales processes (and put in the effort to see it through), you're bound to start seeing fantastic results.
How To Use MEDDIC and Meet Your Sales Quotas: A Step-by-Step Guide
Dec 22, 2021
You didn't meet your sales quota last quarter. You can't help but wonder what's broken? Your sales process? How do you fix it? What measures can you take to close more deals?
Despite what you think, the issue may not be your sales pitch or salesmanship. It could be the people you're selling to—the quality of your leads.
Luckily, you also have a highly effective solution to change your numbers stat: MEDDIC.
Applying the MEDDIC sales process will help you understand and quantify your prospects better. It ensures you're focused on the right people in the right way, leading to more closed deals and higher revenue.
But there's a catch…
MEDDIC can be confusing, especially for beginners. This article will show you a step-by-step breakdown of the MEDDIC sales methodology to set you up for success and transform your selling game.
What Is the MEDDIC Sales Process?
MEDDIC is a B2B sales methodology designed to help sales professionals qualify better leads, which ultimately contribute to a higher closing rate and increased sales success. Using its principles, you can determine whether you should invest your time and effort in getting a customer into your sales funnel.
MEDDIC is essentially an acronym that stands for: Metrics, Economic buyer, Decision criteria, Decision process, Identify pain, and Champion.
A Step-by-Step Guide To the MEDDIC Framework
As per the acronym, MEDDIC has six qualification steps. First, let's review how to check off every letter in the MEDDIC sales methodology and achieve more deals.
And remember that the meddic sales qualification framework is designed to disqualify prospects as well as qualify them. For most sales people, closing deals means getting rid of unqualified buyers from your sales pipeline as much as it means qualifying decision makers to stay in it.
Never be afraiod to kick prospects out of your sales cycle so you can spend more time with potential prospects will will spent money with you.
1) Metrics
Metrics refer to the quantifiable measures of your solution's value to your prospects.
Find out what quantifiable goals your prospect hopes to achieve by implementing your solution. For example, the prospect may want to double their output or reduce 15% of their total overheads.
See? Quantifiable goals.
Once you know the metrics your customer cares about, you can prove how your solution will provide a good return on investment (ROI). Again, the idea here is to justify your solution from an economic standpoint.
Knowing the metrics will help you justify the economic benefits of your solution from your prospect's perspective, encouraging them to go further in the sales funnel.
Questions to Consider:
What goals does the prospect want to achieve?
How do they measure their success?
How can you help them save time, boost productivity, and accelerate revenue?
2) Economic Buyer
The MEDDIC methodology prioritizes making effective conversations with decision-makers, the one who has the ultimate power to make decisions and authorize spending. It's possible this person may not be the point of contact you established within the company, but they're still important as you can use their help to get in touch with the economic buyer.
Finding your economic buyers is key for sale reps hoping to leverage the meddic process.
Talk to the economic buyer about their expectations, personal metrics, and decision-making process. If you cannot reach out to this person directly, try to collect as much data as possible to know the economic buyer's mindset.
Knowing this information will help you make the sale more palatable to the buyer—even if they aren't directly affected by it.
Questions to Consider:
Are you talking to the decision-maker? Is there anyone else involved in the final decision?
What does success look like for them?
How can you customize your sales pitch based on their viewpoint to take the sale forward?
3) Decision Criteria
To take a deal towards a conclusion, you must understand your prospect's criteria when making decisions.
It's likely your prospect is vetting different vendors and weighing their options based on a few critical factors—their decision criteria. Finally, they have to make a choice, and they'll choose a solution that offers them the best deal.
While different companies use different criteria, a few common factors include ease of use, budget constraints, integration, and potential ROI. If a company doesn't have a formally defined decision-making process, you can ask them to put it to paper.
You want to prove your solution meets all their criteria and position your products in a way that checks all their boxes. Then, show them there's no reason why they shouldn't agree to a sale.
Questions to Consider:
What are the driving factors behind your prospect's buying decisions?
If your prospect had a wishlist for your solution, what essential factors and parameters would be on it?
How can you tailor your sales pitch to highlight these criteria and justify the purchase?
4) Decision Process
Decision criteria define the different factors your prospect weighs when making a decision, whereas the decision process will tell you how the decision is actually made and followed through.
Your prospect's decision-making refers to the internal steps to finalize a decision. Once you understand the process, you'll know who makes the decision, what timeframes and processes they have in place to decide, and brainstorm solutions to avoid roadblocks.
All this information will help you take the necessary measures to close the deal faster. For instance, if you know the economic buyer has okayed the sales decision but hasn't completed the follow-up process paperwork, you can push to get that paperwork completed and close the deal.
Questions to Consider:
How do they come to a final buying decision?
Who do you need to talk to when finalizing decisions?
Is there a formal procedure or paper process involved before approval?
5) Identify Pain
You have to understand what problem your prospect is trying to solve to explain the value of your solution. Otherwise, it's impossible.
Try to identify your prospect's pain points. This can be anything from high production costs to low revenue to slow production. After that, create a sales pitch explaining how your product or service can help alleviate that pain.
Be as specific as possible about the customer's pain. You don't want to be vague or too abstract—it won't help you make an impression. For example, which statement do you prefer: “you're losing revenue because of slow production processes” or “you're losing $300,000 every quarter because your production process is only half as fast as it should be.”
Exactly.
Questions to Consider:
What pain points does the prospect have?
How does the pain point affect the prospect's bottom line?
What are the consequences of leaving the pain point unattended?
6) Champion
Find a champion in your prospect's company. This is the person on the inside who'll push for you and sway the purchasing decision in your favor.
This person is likely also the most affected by the organization's pain or who stands to benefit the most from your product or service. As they want your solution, they will use their influence to sell your product or service on the inside.
Your champion doesn't have to be a manager or supervisor, but they should be well-respected—someone whom other people in the company trust. Trust us, having someone with influence and respect in your corner will help you close the deal considerably faster.
Questions to Consider:
Who has the most to gain by your offering?
Does this person have influence?
Can they explain your product benefits in a way that closes the deal faster?
Use MEDDIC To Take Your Sales Career Forward
Scoring a sale isn't a cookie-cutter practice. Things can go wrong when you least expect it. But using MEDDIC will put you in a better position, helping you hit your sales quote and achieve your sales objectives.
Want to level up your MEDDIC selling game? Add a P and an extra I to your process. Check out our article to learn more about the more advanced version of the MEDDIC sales process, MEDDPICC.
How To Find And Close Your Dream Sales Job | Salesman Podcast
Dec 21, 2021
Rob Barnett is the author of NEXT JOB, BEST JOB and an experienced headhunter connecting the best candidates with hiring managers.
On this episode of the Salesman Podcast, Rob Barnett explains what you need to do to find and then close your dream sales role.
You'll learn:
Sponsored by:
Free SalesCode assessment
Learn your strengths and weaknesses in an instant. Taken by over 10,000+ of your competitors. Don't get left behind.
Take the free assessment
Featured on this episode:
Host - Will Barron
Founder of Salesman.org
Guest - Rob Barnett
Experienced Headhunter
This episode of the show is brought to you from the salesman.org HubSpot Studio. Coming up on today's episode of the Salesman Podcast.
Rob Barnett:
The greatest tips we've seen in our lifetimes, and what that meant, of course, is that the market got even more competitive. And take the hours or the day or two to figure out how am I going to speak to an actual human being at that company, not human resources? What we recommend people do is homework. Hours and hours and hours on what that company is doing, so that in the first thing they read about you, they're going to read the resume.
Will Barron:
Hello, sales nation. My name is Will Barron, and I'm the host of the Salesman Podcast, world's most downloaded B2B sales show. On today's episode, we have an absolute legend. It was a pleasure chatting with him. We have Rob Barnett. He's the author of the book Next Job, Best Job. And that's exactly what we're talking about on today's episode, how to find your next job and make sure that it is the best one, your most aspirational, whether it's in sales, out of sales, whatever it is, how to find your dream job and how to close it and get in the door and speaking to these hiring managers, no matter what the climate is, no matter whether we're in a global economic pandemic crisis or not, how to get this job done. Everything we talk about is available in the show in this episode, or at salesman.org. And so with that said, let's jump right into it.
Will Barron:
Rob, welcome to the Salesman Podcast.
Rob Barnett:
Thank you so much. It's good to meet you.
The New Job Market Demands and Expectations in a Post-Pandemic World · [02:03]
Will Barron:
It's good to meet you. I'm glad to have you on, Rob. On today's episode, we're going to get into how we can build a strategic resume or CV, if you're in the UK like myself. Curriculum Vitae. That might be new on some of the audience who's listening. But before we get into that, I guess I want to start on a wider context here, because clearly the world has changed. The workplace has changed forever. Salespeople seem to be always hopping and changing and jumping jobs regardless, but it might be that there's a whole chunk of the audience right now who want to change jobs, want to change roles might be looking at changing careers. So, with that said, Rob, what do we need to do differently now than perhaps when we were looking at getting a job or searching for jobs two, three years ago? What's changed post COVID with regards to getting a job? And then we'll move on to the idea of a strategic resume later on.
Rob Barnett:
Yes. Great. Well look, the odds got tougher, right? It got tougher because the cut took the greatest hit we've seen in our lifetimes. And what that meant, of course, is that the market got even more competitive. And so for every role, there's twice as many people going after it. And the same old same old is really not going to do it now on resumes, on cover letter, on LinkedIns. I don't know what it is, but it just seems like when you asked me to talk with you about this topic, I feel like people become possessed by some kind of robot from the 1950s when it's time to write a resume and they link it and they speak with these stilted old non-human tones that… I don't know. I think that people have this belief that I'm supposed to do it like everybody else does it. And then when that happens, you end up in the stack, the stack of thousands of everybody elses, and you don't stand out.
The Competitive Landscape in Today’s Job Environment · [03:30]
Will Barron:
So, I love this. We're going to be on totally the same wavelength of all of this, I know that for a fact, Rob, because what I wanted to ask you was out of… Say that we're applying for a complex, B2B sales role, a role that lots of people… Maybe it's software sales, enterprise sales, a role that lots of people want to get into. Well, say that there's 50 people in that pile, say there's 100 people in that pile. From your experience, how many of those individuals are we actually competing against? How many of those individuals just are never going to get a shot? Their resume or CV is just nonsense, they've not got the experience, we're never going to even look at them seriously. What number actually are we competing against? If there's 100 people that apply, what number of individuals are likely to be considered?
“I think the primary problem that so many candidates can solve on a job search, is to make sure that if you're applying for a role, you're really lined up for the specifics of that role. Most job seekers are so bummed out that they're having such hard luck that if a role is open for sales that if they've sold anything then they immediately apply for that sales role, regardless of whether or not they've done the specific kind of requirements that that job is asking for. And you know what? If you haven't, it is really a waste of time to apply for that role.” – Rob Barnett · [04:46]
Rob Barnett:
This is such a great question. And you know, there's two ways that I would respond to you on it. The first is who the hell's looking in that pile, right? I'm always worried about who's that person on the other end. Meaning, is it a robot or is it, God bless her, or God bless him, a 23 year old who's some kind of a junior person in the human resources department with very few human skills, just looking for keywords and buzzwords. I mean, that part of it is terrifying. First is who's judging that pile. But the second thing that really I think is the primary problem that so many candidates can solve on a job search, is to make sure that if you're applying for a role, you're really lined up for the specifics of that role.
Rob Barnett:
Most job seekers are so bummed out and I've been there more times than I wish. They're so bummed out. They're having such hard luck that if a role is open for sales and I've sold anything, this pen, that then I immediately apply for that sales role, regardless of whether or not I've done the specific kind of requirements that that job is asking for. And you know what? If you haven't, it is really a waste of time to apply for that role. I don't know what it is, but people feel like, well, it's a numbers game, and I have to send out as many resume as possible. Not unless that resume is really lined up with the likelihood that if there's 15 requirements, you're going to be able to really check 12 or 13 of them no problem without saying, well, close enough, let me go for it. Don't bother.
What to Expect From the Current Job Market Environment · [06:09]
Will Barron:
Is it fair to say that getting a job in 2021 onwards is similar to the shift that's happening in B2B sales? And what I mean by that, Rob, is that 20 years ago, perhaps you could hit your number by just cold calling people. Call, call, call, call. It's a numbers game. Eventually you're going to get the right person at the right time. You're going to do a deal with them. Now, you can't cold call people because no one has an office desk because no one's in their office. If you don't have the right message at the right time through the right person, and you're involved in the organisation and you've got multiple threads within it, it's very difficult to even have a hypothesis of what the buyer wants to engage that initial conversation. So, is it fair to say that not just sales, which we talk about on the show all the time, has transformed into a more complex sale? Is it fair to say that being… Not necessarily being [inaudible 00:06:54]… We'll, perhaps touch on that in a second, but applying for jobs has become more strategic in its nature as well?
“If Kevin Bacon is the hiring manager, how are you going to talk to Kevin or one person separated from him at that company in order to do the thing that makes you stand out. So, you want to get some information about what's really going on in the company beyond what's on the digital page, before you can really kick ass in the interview.” – Rob Barnett · [07:52]
Rob Barnett:
Yes. Beautiful. And I think that you have to get another job before you get this actual job. You have to actually decide that there's a need to become a private detective. If you're just going to upload a resume cold to a company, the odds are just terrible. But if you decide to become a detective and take the hours or the day or two to figure out how am I going to speak to an actual human being at that company, not human resources. I hope they're not listening. They're not going to love me after they hear this podcast. Not human resources, but if there's six degrees of Kevin Bacon, I like to tell people, cut that down to one degree of Kevin Bacon. If Kevin Bacon is the hiring manager, how are you going to talk to Kevin or one person separated from him at that company, in order to do the thing that you baked into your question? Which is you want to get some information about what's really going on there, beyond what's on the digital page, before you can really kick ass in the interview.
Rob’s Thoughts on Why Salespeople Need to Be More Intentional About Job Applications · [08:16]
Will Barron:
Sure. And I guess it's even more appropriate for salespeople than if we are a marketer trying to break into marketing, right? Tell me if I'm wrong here, but it seems like if I'm a kick-ass marketer and I start ringing VPs of marketing, the VP's going to be like, “Okay, send your resume over to HR or add me on LinkedIn and we'll chat about it online.” Versus if you can get on a call with a hiring sales manager, sales leader, and you can really wow them on the call, you're demonstrating your skillset right there and then. So, is it fair to say then that this is even more appropriate as an approach for sales people than it is for other people in whatever industry or kind of segment?
Rob Barnett:
Yes, 100 times yes. I mean, I like to use this analogy for, over here in the baseball analogy, would be-
Will Barron:
This might go totally past me, Rob. You might go right over my head with your baseball analogy.
“When COVID hit, we started recommending to all of our clients that you should come much stronger with content, ideas, specifics, and with the proof that you've done more homework about this company than any other candidate. Come with all that in the beginning before you were even asked, because what the company wants to hear now is what are you going to do to make them money, right? And the people who offer that early on are the people who have the better chance of going through at least more than one dreaded 30 minute interview.” – Rob Barnett · [09:47]
Rob Barnett:
I know, I know. Steal second base before even the first pitch is thrown. Because, in old days, you'd be lucky to go through multiple interviews. And then maybe as one of the final steps, you're asked to put your ideas in writing and really impress them with either the dreaded PowerPoint presentation or just a plain Word document that's got all of what you have to say to pitch yourself for this job. When COVID hit, we started recommending to all of our clients that you should come much stronger with content, with ideas, with specifics, with the proof that you've done more homework about this company than any other candidate. Come with all that in the beginning before you were even asked, because what the company wants to hear now is what are you going to do to make them money, right? And the people who offer that early on are the people who have the better chance of going through at least more than one dreaded 30 minute interview.
How to Stand Out From the Competition During Job Applications · [10:27]
Will Barron:
Okay. So, let's get practical here. What does it look like to do this very literally? So, we can touch on perhaps the calling up of the hiring manager in a second, or adding them on LinkedIn, communicating, chatting with them. We'll touch on that in a second. But do we need to create a… Rather than just sending over and filling in the online application form, do we need to then send the hiring manager some kind of application pack with 30, 60, 90 day plans and things like that? How do we very literally separate ourselves from the competition here?
Rob Barnett:
Yes. Well, look, the cover letters, too, like we said earlier, they tend to all be written by the exact same person. I'll perform one for you now. Hi, Will. Or if I haven't done that, it's to whom it may concern, right? To whom it may concern. I'm very interested to see the job that you've posted for blankety-blankety-blank, because I am an award-winning salesperson with 15 years of experience and a proven track record at great oral and written communication skills. I have a demonstrated history of say… These cover letters are not cutting it now. And so what we recommend people do is homework. Hours and hours and hours on what that company is doing so that in the first thing they read about you, they're going to read the resume. So, why is the cover letter a copy of the resume in long sentences?
Rob Barnett:
I'd rather that that first letter that's written to the company be, “I've watched what you've been doing for this last year, and it seems as though the priorities of the business are X, Y, and Z. In my last job, I've worked on X, I've done Y, I've done Z. Are you interested in considering this?” In other words, bring the ideas, bring the content, bring the feedback on what you think that company is doing well, and then go ahead and take the risk and talk about what you think that company needs to do better. Bold is beautiful.
Rob Reveals What Happens Behind the Scenes After You Apply for a Job · [12:45]
Will Barron:
Can you explain, because you kind of alluded to this earlier on with the 23 year old intern maybe sifting through some of these. What happens when we send off our resume, whether it's an online form, whether we send it off as a Word doc or whatever it is. What happens when it goes into this black hole and then we may or may not hear back out the other end of it?
“I think people are obsessed with algorithms now, and there's this belief that if I just write the phrase, let’s say, data analysis three times on my resume, it's going to get magically found by the system and then it's going to end up on the desk of the chief executive at that company. I'm much less concerned about being found by a robot as I'm concerned about finding people who can make the introduction that's needed. That warm introduction between myself, the candidate and that hiring manager. So, if you don't know people in that company, you're going to try to make those connections on LinkedIn, but then you're going to try and turn something that's cold into something that's warm.” – Rob Barnett · [13:06]
Rob Barnett:
Yes. I think people are obsessed with algorithms now. And there's this belief that if I just write the phrase data analysis three times on my resume, it's going to get magically found by the system and then it's going to end up on the desk of the chief executive at that company. I'm much less concerned about being found by a robot as I'm concerned about finding people who can make the introduction that's needed, the warm introduction between myself the candidate and that hiring manager. And whatever it takes to do that… I mean, yes, you might… If you don't know people, as you say, you're going to try to make those connections on LinkedIn, but then you're going to try and turn something that's cold into something that's warm.
Rob Barnett:
Maybe it's a simple request to somebody else who works at the company. And you say, “Look, I'm applying for a job there. If you have a minute… You probably don't have 20 minutes to talk, but I've got three questions to ask you on an email that would be so helpful to give me a shot at getting this job.” Then ask three probing questions. When you've got those answers, you can now say, “I connected with so-and-so at the company, and I understand that X, Y, and Z. You've got to get into the dialogue some way with people who work there, because if you're just wishing that you're going to be discovered by a robot, I don't like those odds.
Will Barron:
I love it. I agree. And clearly you're the expert here, but you're mirroring my experience getting into medical device sales, which was extremely competitive at the time. And I'm sure it's even more competitive right now. My approach of all of this was, if I'm filling in an online form, if I'm sending off a resume, CV, I've failed. I'm now just a needle in the haystack, as you described it here, Rob. So, perhaps you can critique some of the way… In fact, even better. Let's go one step further, Rob. Let's say salesman.org, the training product, the podcasts, the advertising, everything goes to complete shit. Everything is dried up, and I've got a mortgage to pay, we've got a commercial mortgage to pay on this building, we've got staff to pay. I'm going to have to, just maybe for a year, two years, whatever it is, I'm going to have to go back and get a sales job, Rob.
How to Stand Out When Applying for an Extremely Competitive Job · [15:50]
Will Barron:
And let's narrow it down. I want to go back to medical device sales. So, there's only a handful of companies that I want to be involved in, because I enjoy the product services and I want to sell those. And perhaps that's a conversation for later on of whether we should settle, whether we should go for the job that we really want. We'll touch on that at the end of the show. What do I need to do, Rob? If there's four companies that I want to work for, do I need to start courting these managers now before I want the job, or am I waiting for a job opening to appear? What do I do if I want to move into this very competitive space?
Rob Barnett:
Oh, this is such a great question. There's so many things packed into this, that I'm going to try, in this bald head, to not forget at least three things that you opened up. The first thing I heard you open up is that you've had this background. Like, my neighbour does, right here in the great state of New Jersey, in medical equipment, right? That's been your background. So, the first thing you said to me, as a head hunter, gave me two big thumbs up, which is you're going back where your expertise lies. That's great. Then the second thing that you opened up in my mind is, do I start trying to warm those contacts up whether or not there is an opening there so that I'm warm for a future opening? Or do I wait until there's an actual job? I love this question. This question comes up all the time and I've actually changed my answer during COVID.
Rob Barnett:
My answer now, with all of us having one of the hardest, if not the hardest, times of our lives is that I've been counselling clients to drop the whole, “Can we meet? Can we chat? Can we have coffee? I'm a friend of so-and-so, they told me to call you.” The end result of almost all of those conversations when there isn't an opening is, “Will, you sound like a great guy. Listen, I don't have anything now.” Say it with me, “But I will definitely keep you in mind if there's an opening.” I think it's a much better move, during the dark times, to wait. Wait until you know there's an opening and pounce then, because now there's a real cadence to this thing. It's really specific, it's on. But it raises the third and final thing I wanted to share in this answer.
Rob Barnett:
There's a conspiracy theory in people's minds about jobs, and I hear it every day, and I am here to shoot this conspiracy theory down. People say, “Well, job listings are bullshit. You're never really going to know if there really is a job or not. The company's not going to list the job. They're just going to hire somebody internally.” I'm the guy to say not true. Not true. My experience is that when a job becomes real, that company must post the job, and even if they know they're going to hire Will anyway, they've got to go through the motions of putting that job up online so that other candidates can come in. So, I just want to say that this whole conspiracy theory about job listings are bullshit. No, they're there. And then at that moment when the job is listed, that's the time to pounce.
The Secret Source to Finding the Right Jobs Online · [19:30]
Will Barron:
Is there any secret source to finding these job listings or especially when we talk more about the enterprise side of things, large businesses as opposed to small, medium size companies. Did they all go on monster.com? Did they all end up on these job sites? Is there anything else that we need to do or is it okay just to monitor those websites?
Rob Barnett:
Yes. I think that this is a important piece of the conversation. A targeted company search is really going to say, look, in your example, there are only these medical device companies where I will logically land. Therefore, I'm going to go on all those company sites, I'm going to set up alerts, I'm going to set up Google alerts. I'm going to go on LinkedIn, I'm going to set up job alerts for those specific companies so that the moment anyone on my targeted list is looking, I'm pouncing.
Is Now (Post Pandemic) A Good Time to Quit Your Current Job and Risk Going After the Job of Your Dreams? · [20:36]
Will Barron:
What happens? This is going to be massively subjective, right? But what happens if we're working… Right now, as we record this, hopefully coming out of the global pandemic, especially the UK, the US, Europe, and other parts of the world where the vaccines are being rolled out, right? So, hopefully, there's an end insight for some of us that are fortunate. What do we do, Rob, if we're in a role and we're like, “Right, I hate this freaking job. This job sucks.” But it's a terrible time to try and change careers, change jobs, change positions right now. Say we've took your advice, Rob. We've set up notifications on LinkedIn, we're monitoring these job sites, even if we've somewhat automated it, we're not checking every day, but something crops up. It's a medical advice company that we've always aspired to work towards, they have the best products. We've been competing against them, Rob. We've been competing against them and they kick our ass every time because they have the best products. We want to work there. Is now a good time to risk moving from one job to another? Is there ever a good time to do it? What I'm saying is, is there a big enough upside to risk kind of making these kind of moves right now? Or is it time that we kind of rest on our laurels and just suck it up and get on with it?
Rob Barnett:
Wow. What a great question. I think that I came up with a simple little trick in my brain, in my long 40 plus years of working somewhere. The device is called the alarm. And when the alarm goes off in the morning, whether it's 5:30, 6:00, 6:30, 7:00, whenever you like, there's that moment in your mind between sleep and full consciousness where you have this sort of gut feeling, do I want to get up and go to this fricking job or not? And if you start waking and having those bad, bad feelings that say, “I don't want this day to happen, I don't want this job,” then that's the deepest message your subconscious can possibly give you that you are not in the right spot. Now, your next question is, what happens if unemployment is raging? What happens if, God forbid, another virus hits us? I mean, would I take the risk of leaving what appears to be secure for something that I'm craving in my aortic muscles which says there's got to be something better out there? Depends on your level of risk.
“Carefully obey what your subconscious is telling you. If there's something better out there then go for it, but go for it without blowing what you've got. Because if you've got something that's keeping the roof over your head, even though you secretly wish you shouldn't be there, then carefully spend some time trying to better your situation. And let's face it, you're certainly more hireable when you're in a job than you are when you're on your butt because your value is greater” – Rob Barnett · [23:34]
Rob Barnett:
You're talking to a risk taker. I've taken risks my whole life, I would say yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Carefully obey what your subconscious is telling you, which is there's something better out there and go for it, but go for it without blowing what you've got, right? Because if you've got something that's keeping the roof over your head, even though you secretly wish you shouldn't be there, then carefully, carefully, carefully spend some time trying to better your situation. And let's face it, last point, you're certainly more hireable when you're in a job than you are when you're on your butt.
Will Barron:
Yeah.
Rob Barnett:
So, your value is greater.
Will Barron:
There's two things here that come to mind as I asked that question. And me and you are probably aligned on this. You seem the same. I'm a massive optimist. So, I would hesitate to tell someone to change jobs if they changed jobs 6 months ago, 12 months ago, and they've been job hopping for months on end, or years on end, right? Clearly, the job isn't the issue. It's the fact that you've got shiny object syndrome or you feel the grass is always greener on the other side. I know from data wise, it takes about 6 to 8 months to ramp up a sales rep. And so if you are only in your job for 12 months, you're only just coming around to being trained, informed, and engaging central customers, especially in longer, complex B2B or what I was doing, business to government sales. There is an element of, you've got to hunker down just for a year or two, just to see what the deal actually is.
Will Barron:
But I'm a massive optimistic and I'm a massive risk taker as well, Rob. So, I think it was Steve Jobs who said if you do something every day for 60 days and every day you think this is stupid and you hate it, it's time for a change. That's how Steve jobs would frame things up. And someone else said this on the podcast before, of if something isn't… You should eliminate yeses, and you should only do no and hells yes. If there's something in between, it's not a good fit for you. And you should say no to it. So, clearly, I massively appreciate this and I know you do as well, and that's if you've got a job, you've got responsibilities, there's kids, there's mortgage, wherever it is, at some points in all our lives, we've just got to get our head down and get through them.
Will Barron:
But with that not on the table, or you've got a bit of cash in an emergency fund, or you've got a bit of savings, I would encourage people that life is so short that you have to be pushing towards… Not necessarily your dream job, because I want to be a Formula 1 racing car driver. That's never going to happen. But maybe I could do ad sales for the F1 and spend a load of time with the teams and that side of things. So, anything else to add on that point, Rob, before we move on, on this idea of aspiring for more with our careers and our jobs?
Rob Barnett:
Well, for us, the most important chapter in our book is chapter four. It's called your north star. And because life is too short, I believe that there is an actual logical way to answer the deepest question most people have in their career, which is, I know what's in my heart, I know what I want to do. Can I do it? Can I be a ballerina? No, I'm just kidding.
Will Barron:
I believe in you, Rob, I believe in you, mate.
Rob Barnett:
Yes. I can! So, we try to encourage people, as much as possible, to go through this three step process in answering the greatest question of all, which is… You called it the dream job, I just call it the north star. Can I have it? Can I really have what I want? The first question that you ask yourself is a spiritual one. It's in your heart. It says, “Look, what do I really want to be doing? If I'm going to be spending 8, 9, 10, 12, for me, sometimes too many more hours a day doing this thing, am I allowed to do the thing I love?” The answer to that question should always be yes. But now the next question is, can you do it? Can you do it? Because these awful people come into your brain next, I call them the no police. They're going to give you a million reasons why you can't be a ballerina, you stupid idiot.
“The most important step in figuring out whether you can have the job that you want the most is about proving it. And proving it gets us right back to the damn resume and the damn LinkedIn. There has to be enough R&R, recency and repetition. So, recency and repetition that you've done this job not just once, but you've done it recently and repeatedly in order to make the entire pitch credible.” – Rob Barnett · [28:31]
Rob Barnett:
Well, the second step, once you have this feeling of what you know in your heart, the second step is much more logical. You've got to go into your brain and say, am I truly great at doing this? As much self-awareness as I've got, am I truly great at doing this? Is this one of my superpowers or is it just a vague notion? Is it a wish? Is there some evidence that I've done this before? The third and final step in figuring out whether you can have the job that you want the most, is about proving it. And proving it gets us right back to the damn resume and the damn LinkedIn. There has to be enough R&R, recency and relevancy. Sorry, recency and repetition. That R&R. Recency and repetition, that you've done this job not just once, but you've done it recently and repeatedly in order to make the entire pitch credible, right?
“I hate the phrase, “I have transferable skills.” That's a no-no. That's saying, “Trust me, I can do it even though I haven't really done it.” I don't think people should use that phrase in an interview. If I ask you a hard question about whether or not you've been a ballerina and the answer is no, then the answer in that interview should be no.” – Rob Barnett · [29:37]
Rob Barnett:
The first part of the pitch is the easiest. You know you're going to sound great going for this job because it's what you love. The second is where all your confidence lives. It's, look, I know I can do this. I am a ballerina. And then the third. The third is you got to prove it. You got to prove it. There's got to be real clear evidence. I hate the phrase, by the way, going for jobs, I hate the phrase, “I have transferable skills.” That's a no-no. That's saying, “Trust me, I can do it even though I haven't really done it.” I don't think people should use that phrase in an interview. If I ask you a hard question about whether or not you've been a ballerina and the answer is no, then the answer in that interview should be no.
How to Get as Close as Possible to Your Aspirational Job · [30:06]
Will Barron:
What do you say, Rob? Because everything you just said is logical, makes total sense, and a lot of aspirational jobs, dream roles, I imagine… And you can tell me if I'm wrong here, say like I did want to work in the F1. Well, I would probably start some kind of F1 podcast, which would allow me to network with people in the space and I'm suited to podcasting, so that would be my kind of way in and format. I might build an audience, and maybe that'll get me in a few meetings and in a few conversations. So, what I'm saying is, perhaps with these more aspirational roles, these dream roles, if we don't have the experience, we need to do this extracurricularly, and do this out of office hours over the course of maybe even a few years before we even get the opportunity to have conversations about jobs and roles. Am I right on the right tracks with that so far?
“I'm a big believer in something that I'm simply calling the straight line theory. It means that if you know where you want to end up, if you know you want to be the most famous actor in all of Hollywood, then you actually shouldn't be working as a tax accountant on the side, you should be figuring out how to work in accounting on a film set, right? Because that will eventually lead you in a straight line to the secret role of being an actor, right? You've got to be around those people. I just don't believe that it's a good idea to say, “Well, I've got to make money. I've got to keep a roof over my head, so I'm doing this thing that has absolutely nothing to do with what my soul really wants to do.” – Rob Barnett · [31:13]
Rob Barnett:
Yes, and, as they say in improv comedy. Yes, and. Because one way of doing it, as you say, is on your off hours, right? That you're going to spend time on the weekends figuring out how to get into that industry. But I also am a big believer in something that I'm simply calling the straight line theory. It means that if you know where you want to end up, if you know you want to be the most famous actor in all of Hollywood, then you actually shouldn't be working as a tax accountant on the side, you should be figuring out how to work in accounting on a film set, right? Because that will eventually lead you in a straight line to the secret, secret role of being an actor, right? You've got to be around those people. I just don't believe that it's a good idea to say, “Well, I've got to make money. I've got to keep a roof over my head, so I'm doing this thing that has absolutely nothing to do with what my soul really wants to do.”
Rob Barnett:
I think it's better to take less money in a lower job title working in that correct lane and betting on yourself and saying, “Look, I'm not ready to have the job that I really want as far as title and money goes. But if I get there for a year and show them all that I'm worthy, I'll move up.” But now I'm moving up in the right straight line and I'm not seven countries away.
Will Barron:
I agree. And so I might… Just about to decimate my audience and ruin my own business, but a lot of people fall into sales roles. Various few people, when they're young, go, “Hey, I want to sell accounting software to accountants.” It doesn't happen, right? We all want to be… I mentioned… Maybe there's Freudian going on. “Oh, it's because the F1 season's just about to start. The Formula 1. That's why it's obviously top of mind.” But when I'm a kid, I wanted to be a jet fighter pilot and I was too tall, I'm 6 foot 3. I would literally not fit in the jet. So, that was written off. The RAF was written out of my life. And then similarly with Formula 1 and professional racing, you have to start when you're like three in a go-kart. And I was only having these conclusions when I was 13, 14, 15, thinking about careers. So, that was totally out of the… Not necessarily out of the picture, but the highest level is out of the picture.
Is It Possible to Start From the Bottom and Make it to the Top in Today’s Job Environment? · [33:40]
Will Barron:
So, you've answered the question I was going to ask you, which was, what do we do when our dream job says that they want to have experience and we don't have the experience? You get in an adjacent role, you get in the organisation, you hustle and bustle kind of your way to get a grain of experience, which then you can expand on over time. But final thing I want to ask you, Rob, and again, especially when we're dealing with perhaps the enterprise here, large organisations, is it still possible to work your way up, like seemingly you used to be able to do 20, 30 years ago where you start in the mail room and you work hard and you end up the CEO and your story's told on the front of Time magazine. Is that career progression within large organisations, and smaller organisations, whatever it is, is it still possible? Is that mobility available to people? Because I see less and less people that I engage with, even kind of the leadership that I engage with within these organisations as well, less and less people are staying companies for 10, 20 years. Everyone seems to be jumping around more often than not.
Rob Barnett:
Yes. There's no question that the average amount of years in a job has lessened over time. I think we all have DNA in ourselves from our parents and our grandparents that have this rule that you're supposed to get somewhere and stay somewhere for as long as possible. That's the one thing that drives most of my readers and my clients crazy, is this terrible feeling that the job just isn't going to last more than a few years. I believe that, if it still is your true desire to stay put, it can last longer, but only if you're willing to accept something that upset me greatly when I first learned it. I was working in this really cool job long time ago at MTV when it was the new, new thing and it was the coolest place in the world. And we just felt like we were on top of the world when we worked there. That's how it looked like from the outside.
Rob Barnett:
From the inside, people used to say, you know what it's really like working here? It's like going out with the hottest looking person on earth that treats you like shit. That's what people used to say. And what that really meant is that, like most companies, it had its fair share of politics, internal politics, right? She said, he said, they said. Why can't I do this? And so this guy took me out to a meal in my early weeks working there, and he said, “Look, I'm going to give you a little lesson. You better learn this. Half of the time you're going to spend here is doing the actual work that you've been hired to do. The other half of the time is going to be spent focusing on the people and all the relationships to keep them as strong as they can possibly be politically. Because if not, you're never going to make it here.”
Rob Barnett:
And I hated the whole sound of office politics. It just was disgusting to me. But I think that over time, I've realised that unfortunately half of our mind has to be based on, are Will and Rob getting along or are they secretly hating each other? And if they're secretly hating each other, we've got a choice, right? We're going to have to figure out how to fix it and reset this thing, or it's just a matter of time and it's going to go south. So, so much of the reason, I think, why jobs don't last is because I secretly did something 15 minutes ago in this interview that pissed you off, and then we're never going to talk about it. But it's there, it's real, it happened. And then if you're my boss, it's going to lead to my demise.
Will Barron:
I love this. I love you being so frank and open about it. I've talked about it on the podcast in the past. My biggest flaw in all the medical device sales roles I've been in, wasn't the ability to sell, it wasn't the ability to hit quota, it wasn't the ability to have customers that liked me and wanted me to return and be in the operating room with them. There's a low [inaudible 00:38:15] here. I would spend every Friday from like 1:00, 2:00 till 7:00, 8:00 PM in the… And just be chilling, hanging out with surgeons, having a great time, and they were my best customer. And one of the biggest accounts for this, the last company that I worked for, my issue was my internal stakeholders. My boss thought I was a bit of an idiot.
Will Barron:
I don't know, whether he thought I was thick or just not… How to describe it? I didn't do very well with taking criticism, in which I would not complain, shout, bitch, moan. I would just sit there and just go… And basically let it ping off me and ignore me. Now, this led to issues with the sales manager and eventually the national sales manager, because they both were trying to tell me off for things. And they thought nothing was sinking in and nothing was going through, when really I was taking what they said on board and processing it and improving my game and improving myself. But I give them just so little feedback that they were getting stressed out about, they were questioning their own managerial skills because they thought they weren't getting anywhere with me.
Will Barron:
And it was only on the exit interview that the national sales manager, he massively shifted. And he was like, “Hey, Will, I'm so excited that you're starting in the company. I'm really proud of you. I've always wanted to start a business, but I've never had the… I've never had the nuts to do it myself. We're all dead happy for you.” And I was like, “You've got any feedback for me?” Because this was a shock. We'd gone from this relationship of them basically telling me off all the time, even though I thought I was doing the right thing, I was hitting my target. My customers liked me. And I said, “What feedback have you got?” And he's like, “Just be a little bit more open and allow a bit more of conversation about when we're engaging with you. Don't take things personally.”
How to Handle Internal and External Politics When Trying to Move Up the Corporate Ladder · [40:50]
Will Barron:
Now, if he would've maybe had been a better manager and told me this three years prior so I could've actioned it, that would've helped me. If I'd been less stubborn and thick and seen it coming and had more self-awareness, I would've had a better relationship with them. But all my stresses in that last sales job with the internal politics of sales management, sales leadership being on my back, the things that didn't exist, because I was always hitting target and my customers were always happy. And so I engineered this problem into myself and I would've never had career progression in that company because the layer above me thought I was a great salesperson… I'm assuming they thought I was a great salesperson, but they didn't think I was the… They didn't think I was leadership material because, again, I didn't have that ability to look inside, see what the problem was, and make shifts on it. So, I've talked about this on the podcast before, but I think that's so valuable to just to have this understanding that, especially in sales, you've got internal stakeholders and they're just as important as your external ones aren't they?
Rob Barnett:
It's amazing it is. And you know, it's this tiny little mistakes that may or may not have happened in actuality that are perceived to be great offences. But if they're never discussed, they can create the end of a job. I wrote about this in the book. There was a time when I had to send a message to my boss, and I had a longstanding relationship with the manager above her. It's an old friend. We're all friendly, right? So, when I sent the message, I sent it to my boss and I copied the big boss. Well, like you said, it was maybe only about a year or two later that I found out this person was hating me. They were hating me because they thought that I was trying to do some kind of backstabbing kind of thing. There was no ill will in what I did. It was just a mistake. It was a mistake. Well, I definitely shouldn't have done it. It ended up getting me fired.
Rob Barnett:
But it was that small thing that, left out of conversation, turns into something much, much bigger. So, the last point on it is, if you're working for a manager that's been terrible at giving you feedback, if you know you should have had an annual review and it's been a year and four months and you never have the review, I think we all have to ask management for a check-in. We have to say, “Hey, would it be possible?” No agenda. “No, I'm not leaving. I'm not quitting. I'm not bugging you for a raise. Can we just get together next Thursday? I want to just make sure I'm on track,” right? Just a check-in because that'll save you from oblivion sometimes.
Will Barron:
Yeah. And look, these people are your assets and on your side, hopefully, when you do change roles. If you leave on great terms, maybe there is references, maybe they can post on your LinkedIn page, which we didn't even get to. We didn't even get to other strategic LinkedIn stuff.
Rob Barnett:
Oh, we didn't get to that stuff.
Why You Need to Ask for Reviews and Recommendations From Your Former Managers · [43:16]
Will Barron:
We'll have you back on in the future, Rob, to dive into all this in more detail. But even I know I've done load of deals on the back of a few quotes and references from previous customers. There's no reason why you couldn't get quotes, references, something like that from a manager that you've got a great relationship with. And look, if your sales manager puts together a quote, a 15 second video saying, “Hey, this sales rep has done this, this, and this. They're reliable. They're this, they that.” That must have massive impact if we can include this on our outreach to a potential hiring manager, is that right?
“It's easier to ask for a recommendation on LinkedIn from a great former colleague than it is to ask to borrow money, but the recommendation, which most goodhearted people are willing to give, can go a long way at making you more money.” – Rob Barnett · [44:05]
Rob Barnett:
It has a great deal of impact on future customers when they hear it not from you, but from people that have great regard for the work that you've done. It's so important. I said someplace in the book, it's easier to ask for a recommendation on LinkedIn from a great former colleague than it is to ask to borrow money, but the recommendation, which most goodhearted people are willing to give, can go a long way at making you more money. It really does. It helps tremendously. There's a lot of people that don't even use those on LinkedIn, but it's very, very important. And one last trick about it, too, since you asked, if you and I worked for somebody 10 years ago and we had a great, great successful experience, if that person writes the recommendation for you today on LinkedIn, it populates with today's date. So, it's the most current thing that anyone will see on your profile, even though the goodness happened 10 years ago.
Parting Thoughts · [44:10]
Will Barron:
Love it. Oh, that's super practical. I enjoyed that. Rob. That's a great way to wrap up this episode. With that, mate, tell us where we can find… We've alluded to it, but tell us what we can find more about you and of course the book as well.
Rob Barnett:
Yes. Thank you. Well, all the voodoo that we do is at robbarnettmedia.com. There's a link for the book there as well. The book is called Next Job, Best Job: A Headhunter's 11 Strategies to Get Hired Now. And you can buy it everywhere that you buy a book. Either hardcover, E-book or the audio coming out of my big fat mouth.
Will Barron:
Amazing. Are you doing… Or have you done the audiobook yourself?
Rob Barnett:
Yes, sir.
Will Barron:
I love it. Well, congratulations, because I hate getting a book, especially someone as charismatic and as entertaining as yourself, and you get it an audiobook and then it's some professional speaker who you've not really got that relationship with. So, that'll be amazing. I'll check out the audiobook as well myself. And with that, Rob, I want to thank you for your time, your insights. [inaudible 00:46:05] just mention the show notes over at salesman.org. And I want to thank you again for joining us on the Salesman Podcast.
Rob Barnett:
Thank you so much, Will, it's really great to talk to you.
5 Best Sales Pitch Examples and Tips And Why They Work
Dec 20, 2021
A good sales pitch makes all the difference between a failed deal and a closed deal. That's why it's such a massive part of the selling process.
A sales pitch is your attempt at selling your product or service. It should ideally be a persuasive and engaging speech that communicates the value of your offering and encourages the customer to put down their money.
But what makes an effective, winning sales pitch is the million-dollar question.
This Salesman.org article will dive into the fundamentals of a sales pitch and discuss the best sales pitch examples and tips to set up sales reps for selling success.
What Is a Sales Pitch?
A sales pitch is a super brief sales presentation explaining how your business will benefit the prospect. It should be compelling enough to convince the prospect about your product's superiority and persuade them to engage in business with you.
A good sales pitch can be anything—a script you go through on a call, a traditional presentation in front of decision-makers, or a two-minute elevator speech for networking opportunities.
How To Write a Good Sales Pitch
The idea behind delivering a sales pitch is to connect with potential buyers. While every salesperson needs to be unique to make an impact, all the best sales pitch examples has three main components.
A) Hook
Your hook should capture your prospect's attention, whether it's your email subject or the opening line of your cold call. Think strong, impactful, and attention-grabbing.
A strong hook is fundamental for a sales reps pitch because if you don't have the attention of the prospect, how are you going to influence them?
Here are a few ideas for writing the perfect hook for your sales pitch:
Cut to the chase (“I want to get straight to the point and share… “)
Ask a question (“Does the idea of increasing your revenue by X% sound appealing to you “)
Reference a shared connection (“Saw your LinkedIn post talking about how Mr. X's ideas influenced your decision-making”)
Share a data point (“Did you know that X% of CEOs)
Mention a recent interaction (“I loved hearing your thoughts at the ABC convention”)
B) Context
The context of your sales pitch gives the prospect an enticing value proposition. After delivering a hook that gets the prospect's attention, tell them why you've contacted them and explain what your product can do for them.
Here are a few essential context tips:
Speak about your product or service plainly—leave out any marketing or overly technical jargon
Use data, market research, customer stories, or case studies to have the buyer continue engaging with you
Tie the benefits from the previous bullet to your prospect's goals and objectives, explaining how they'll personally benefit if they respond to your request
C) Call-to-action (CTA)
Add a clear next step the prospect can take to close your sales pitch. For example, include a strong call to action that pushes the prospect to do what you want them to do, such as calling you back or responding with availability.
Often if you've covered the bases and kept your sales pitch short, focused on the prospect rather than your own sales process and you've generated social proof, then the CTA is seamless.
Below are a few examples you can use:
Does it make sense to connect for 15 minutes this week?
What's the best way to connect on this?
Are you up for a 15-minute chat next week?
When is a good time to chat about this more?
Would you be open to a call to learn more about our product?
Do you have any availability next Wednesday for a brief chat?
5 Good Sales Pitch Examples and Ideas for Inspiration
Securing high-quality leads is hard work, but converting those hard-earned leads into a closed sale is even more challenging. To make your sales job slightly more straightforward, here are the five best sales pitch tips that effectively convey value and get you from successful sales pitch to commission bonus in your pocket. .
Sales Pitch Tip 1: Be Direct and Concise
Concise and direct sales pitches are more effective than a long, draggy ramble for many reasons.
The prospect is more likely to listen to your whole pitch if you highlight and explain 2-3 key product features instead of a summary of everything your product can do. Also, you get your point across faster and more efficiently, allowing you to take the sales conversation forward with the prospect.
Remember, the prospect is only interested in what your product can do for them. So put the spotlight on precisely that.
Example: Adam Goldstein's Two-Line Pitch
“Hey, we can lower your distribution costs. Let me know who to talk to. ”
That's it. That's what Adam Goldstein, CEO and co-founder of Hipmunk (now Concur Hipmunk), pitched to the CEO of United Airlines and got a response within 15 minutes.
This business sales pitch example shows you only need the right words—no matter how few—to make an impact.
Sales Pitch Tip 2: Use Your Brand Story
Facts tell, but stories sell. That's why compelling storytelling is such a vast foundation of your sales pitch.
Use the power of storytelling in your pitches to single out your product from your competitors. Instead of reading out specifications, set a narrative around your product and service and tell your story.
Example: LISNR's Origin Story
“In 2012, one single belief brought LISNR's founders together: ultrasonic audio is better. These individuals understood the growing need for a device- and platform-independent solution for sending short communication back and forth at the software level. They believed that companies shouldn't have to spend on costly hardware or processes to drive more friction-less and connected experiences.”
LISNR uses its origin story to set a narrative and covers two critical aspects:
How the organization came into existence
What it hopes to accomplish
It provides customers more context to the product. It gets them on board that doing business with LISNR will not only solve their pain points (costly hardware and stunted processes) but also contribute to a greater mission and belief system.
Sales Pitch Tip 3: Describe Product Benefits—and Not Features
Sales professionals often make the common mistake of focusing their sales pitch around the product or service instead of the prospect. Yes, you want to prove your product's superiority, but from the prospect's perspective.
Make your sales pitch relevant to your target audience by highlighting the benefits of your product from their context. Address their pain points and explain how your product or service can solve them.
Example: G2's Elevator Pitch
“G2 is the user-voice platform for people to be able to say how they actually think about the software, and not be told by the analysts, people who don't use it, or the reference from your best customers. You're actually hearing directly from the user and engaging with people who actually use the product.”
This sales pitch highlights how the platform can benefit the user and solve a significant pain point: the disconnection between what customers need and what they get. Notice how the pitch excellently expands on the most significant benefit it provides customers—information from real, genuine users—and is still super short.
Sales Pitch Tip 4: Incorporate Data—Lots of It
Your prospect has probably heard hundreds of sales pitches filled with bold claims. But, unfortunately, these claims start to sound far-fetched after a while, especially if the prospect has made purchases that didn't pay off.
You don't want your pitch to add to the numbers.
Back your sales pitch up with statistics, case studies, and data to provide credibility to your pitch. Even better if you can visualize as many elements as possible, especially data and stats. When writing your sales script, talk around stats to give more context and details. This will help make the prospect feel they're making the right decision.
Example: Tien Tzuo's Zoura Pitch
Take a look at a slide from Zoura's sales deck.
Zoura provides solutions for businesses to launch and manage their subscription-based services. It's also the leading force behind the subscription economy.
Coming back to the slide, instead of claiming that the subscription economy is the future, Tzuo uses eye-opening data points that allow the prospect to draw their own conclusions: the subscription economy is the future.
Using stats and case studies in your pitches tells the prospect you're not making empty claims. In addition, it lends the conversation credibility, improving your chances of closing the deal.
Sales Pitch Tip 5: Build an Emotional Connection
Good sales pitches are all about the customers. But this isn't something that can be achieved through a formal monologue.
Your pitch should start a two-way dialogue between you and your prospect. You want to pique interest, trigger emotions, and make them see your value. Even better if you can spark sympathy and compel the prospect to buy your product or service.
Example: Brian Walter's WOW, HOW, NOW Framework
The WOW, HOW, NOW framework is a very straightforward approach established by Brian Walter, a renowned speaker coach. It goes something like this:
WOW – Deliver a short, stimulating statement that makes the prospect go “Wow!” Even a “Huh?” works.
HOW – Clarify and expand your previous statement.
NOW – End your sales pitch with a specific example of how your offering can help the prospect.
Master the Art of Effortless Selling
Your sales pitch should help you take the sales conversation forward and build solid relationships with prospects. We hope the over tips and examples help you draft the perfect sales pitch to help you win more deals.
Follow the Salesman.org podcast to learn more about how industry leaders pitch their offerings and improve their win rate.
Unique closes $6M seed for its AI-driven video calls platform aimed at sales teams
Unique, a video calls platform that uses AI to teach sales teams how to improve their pitches, has closed a $6 million seed round from a bunch of angel investors. These include Philipp Stauffer (U.S based founder and general partner of Fyrfly Venture Partners) and Daniel Gutenberg.
Unique uses AI to analyse customer conversations. The video recordings of these then help sales people work out which parts of their pitch work best.
Sales Automation: The Puzzle of Reducing Salespersons’ Workload While Maximizing Profits
The sales automation process has 7 stages:
Automated guidance: The sales teams get reminders and notes from the sales automation software.
Lead management automation lets the sales manager build a more curated list of leads using rules and filters.
Communication automation is critical, with everything from sales emails to automated voicemails, appointment scheduling tools, and personal email sequences.
Automated data entry: A pre-programmed system automatically fills in sales data such as price, product, and contact information for leads and customers.
Automated Research: The AI analyzes data to build and update lead profiles, score leads on their likelihood of winning, and marks possible sale opportunities.
Automated activity logging: Important information needs to be logged in real-time. It helps to know how far one has proceeded with a customer.
Automated record creation: A sales automation platform can easily create new records and profiles. As a result, sales people are no longer bogged down with time-consuming responsibilities.
Sales Talent highlights the dangers of long-term working from home for salespeople’s mental health
Paul Owen, CEO of UK sales transformation specialist Sales Talent, has raised concerns around the lack of attention being paid to this.
“The problem is rarely immediately obvious but, over time, I have serious concerns about the mental wellbeing of work-from-home salespeople. We are extroverts, we feed off interaction with other people – a type of interaction we often don’t receive from prospective clients, so need to find elsewhere. In the office, we have plenty of places to feed the extrovert’s need for connection; at home, we’re alone. Very alone. And that can be very dangerous.”
Owen explains the conundrum at the heart of a salesperson’s DNA, saying that most people come into sales because they get on well with others, giving them a high sociability factor. Most good salespeople connect well with 90%+ of people they meet, often 95%+. However, when they start in sales, they fail for much of the time and that 90% is reversed: they might not be disliked by 90%+ of those they meet, but they are usually rejected by them.
Do You Have The Sales Skills Of the Top 1% Of Reps?
Dec 17, 2021
Effective selling goes beyond mastering Excel spreadsheets or knowing how to use the latest sales software. Technology can never replace sales skilld. That’s why you must be in tune with your soft and hard selling skills.
Many studies and books have attempted to identify what makes a good sales web, but there are no conclusive findings yet. So, having interviewed some of the most prominent names in sales and my own experience, I’ve listed some of the most critical skills for sales executives.
You can get some sales skills from on the job training, other important sales skills require an online course or other training instead. But everything listed in this post is achiveble for the average sales representative and they'll help you become a successful salesperson.
We’ve got a lot of ground to cover, so let’s get started!
Soft Sales Skills for Sales Reps
Soft skills are informal abilities you learn over the course of your sales career. Generally, it indicates your attitude in performing common sales-related tasks and connecting with other people.
A) Strong Communication
Communication skills serve as the foundation of building meaningful relationships with both potential new and existing customers. It allows you to set expectations and tactfully discuss your prospect’s pain points and position your offering as the superior solution.
What’s more, communication here goes beyond speaking clearly. It also involves:
Having excellent writing and presentation skills to interact over email, virtual meetings, social media, and in-person.
Communicating effectively throughout the sales cycle—right from cold outreach and follow-up to closing deals.
B) Storytelling
If you’ve been following our blog, you’ll know I‘m a big advocate for using storytelling to get more deals.
Story telling isn't just underrated, it's one of the most important sales skills out there. You'll leverage story telling everywhere from a job interview to strategic prospecting with your biggest opportunities.
Selling isn’t just about discussing product features. You must also convince customers these features will solve their problems and benefit them by generating more money or improving processes.
Here, a good tip is to tell a story that deeply resonates with your target audience. This will help you supercharge your communication and guarantee your message meets its target. Moreover, compelling storytelling doesn’t only help with face-to-face conversations but also ensures your emails get opened and replied to.
C) Critical Thinking
Great sales reps have to gather and work through an ocean of data. But simply having access to the data won’t get you anywhere—you also need critical thinking skills to process the information, analyze disparate data, and identify relevant bits of data from the heap.
D) Negotiation
Knowing how to effectively negotiate and zero on terms that make both you and the prospect happy is a crucial selling skill. It’ll also help you overcome objections during negotiations and develop creative solutions to take your deal towards completion.
Aim to create an environment where your prospect and you can set mutual expectations and benefits.
E) Time Management
You’ll always be under the pressure of closing more deals faster. To ensure you always meet your sales quotas, you have to master the art of managing your time wisely.
And while this may look very obvious, many sales reps fail to make the most of their time. Case in point: sales reps spend nearly two-thirds of their time doing non-revenue generating activities.
Try to be as efficient and productive as you can. I highly recommend using sophisticated CRMs like HubSpot to monitor key activity metrics and better manage your schedule. Trust me; you’ll see immediate results.
Hard Sales Skills for Sales Reps
Hard skills are technical and formal abilities you learn from academic institutions, seminars, training courses, and workplaces. Role-critical skills specialized for carrying out a specific function also fall under this category.
A) Active Listening
In addition to knowing how to speak concisely and clearly, you should also know when to shut up.
Listening is equally essential in sales, as it helps help you understand:
where your clients are coming from
what are their pain points
how to effectively provide solutions for their challenges.
Knowing this information will help you successfully execute other stages in the sales process, such as lead qualification and customer-solution matching.
B) Product Knowledge
The best sales professionals know everything they can about the product or service they sell—how it works, the business value it offers, how it compares to competitors, and why it appeals to their target audience.
This will help you write better sales pitches, as well as prepare for every question, objection, or comment a prospect makes. Interestingly, having in-depth knowledge and expertise of the product is what separates the top 1% of sales reps from the rest.
Study your product in detail and understand the market trends so you know what your prospect wants, like the back of your hand. Go through product marketing collaterals extensively, sign up for training courses, and ask questions to your superiors and other sales reps.
C) Sales Demos and Sales Presentations
Giving excellent sales demos and presentations conveys subject mastery and makes it more likely for the prospect to trust you.
That’s why you should familiarize yourself with popular presentation software tools, such as PowerPoint, Keynote, Prezi, to make good sales presentations. Work on your presentation and public speaking skills while you’re at it for the best results.
D) Knowledge of Common Sales Software and Solutions
As a sales professional, you should know how to use popular platforms, software, and tools your organization and competitors use to engage customers and streamline workflows.
Learn how to take advantage of various sales tools and sales enablement solutions, whether it’s a CRM, a workplace productivity app, a document management software, or a call intelligence tool. This will simplify the selling process and make it more profitable.
Now, you don’t have to be an expert at using sales technology. But you know enough to get the job done quickly.
E) Social Media Skills and Social Selling
Social selling is more important than ever. We live in a technology-first world today, where social media is turning out to be the most critical tool for sales reps.
Use it to oversee your organization’s (and yours) online presence. Implement social media best practices and tricks to engage with prospects on popular social media platforms like LinkedIn, Instagram, and Twitter—or any other network—that can help bolster your lead generation and sales conversion efforts.
Social selling can also be helpful to understand and build better relationships with your prospects.
Other Selling Traits to Hone
Here are a few more sales skills to ensure your long-standing success.
A) Self-Motivation
Developing an ambitious and self-motivated mindset will help you work better under pressure, take rejection gracefully, and beat expectations.
B) Adaptability
Sales is a highly dynamic niche. Customer demographics, tools and technology, customer preferences—everything is changing at an extraordinary speed, and you need to be at the top of it all to succeed.
When you’re adaptable, you can easily sail these currents of change easily. Unfortunately, sales professionals that lack a flexible mindset find meeting their quotas a lot harder.
C) Goal-Oriented
There will always be an ambitious, attainable goal to be reached in sales. Having a goal-oriented outlook will make sure you focus your attention and efforts on achieving—even surpassing—the target.
Some of us are born with extraordinary selling abilities. Those who aren’t can put in a little effort and learn these qualities to get on the same level.
After all, great sales professionals aren’t just born—they can also be made. Start small by improving your communication and listening abilities, and eventually, you can sign up for sales courses to iron out the technicalities of your sales job.
How To Personalize Your Sales Outreach At Massive Scale | Salesman Podcast
Dec 16, 2021
James Palmer is the Regional Vice President of Sales, NEMEA at Seismic. On this episode of the Salesman Podcast, James Palmer explains the steps to making your sales outreach more personalized, whilst at the same time sending more of it. Is that even possible?
You'll learn:
Sponsored by:
Free SalesCode assessment
Learn your strengths and weaknesses in an instant. Taken by over 10,000+ of your competitors. Don't get left behind.
Take the free assessment
Featured on this episode:
Host - Will Barron
Founder of Salesman.org
Guest - James Palmer
Regional VP of Sales at Seismic
This episode of the show is brought to you from the Salesman.org HubSpot Studio. Coming up on today's episode of this Sales Man Podcast.
James Palmer:
We, as B2B organisations are creating more content than ever. And the buyers that we serve are getting absolutely bombarded with this stuff.
James Palmer:
Something that has been a huge black hole for go-to market teams has been insight into this, the performance of content. So which content resonates in this geography, which content resonates in this industry.
James Palmer:
Salespeople think that marketing are the mugs and t-shirt department and that the content they come out with is very aspirational. And doesn't really speak to what salespeople see on the ground.
Will Barron:
Hello Sales H. My name is Will Barron, I'm the host of the Salesman podcast, world's most downloaded B2B sales show. In today's episode, we have an absolute legend. We have James Palmer. He is the regional VP of Sales, NEMEA over at Seismic.com. And on today's episode, we're getting into how you can personalise your outreach, make it more effective, your B2B sales outreach, and do it at scale. And we cover topics here that we've never covered on the show before. We're talking data, sales enablements, how to do this properly in the modern way, as opposed to just sending more and more spam emails. Everything that we talk about in this episode is available in the show notes over at Salesman.org. And with that said, let's jump right into it.
Will Barron:
James, welcome to the Salesman podcast.
James Palmer:
Thanks Will. Thanks for having me, I'm very much looking forward to chatting.
The Paradox of Personalization and Sales Outreach at Scale · [01:51]
Will Barron:
I'm looking forward to chatting with you as well, Sir. And on today's episode, it's a topic that we've somewhat covered but I don't feel we've ever got to the bottom of it. So I'm hoping you can give us some insights and share your expertise here. We're going to touch on how to personalise your B2B outreach at scale. Now, let me ask you this, James, and this is a difficult question to get us started off with. But is this not a little bit of a paradox in that, to do anything at scale, surely we have to reduce the personalization that we need to be able to get it out in the hundred or thousand of contact points over the months or years that we're prospecting.
“I think the world that we live in at the moment, we, as B2B organisations, are creating more content than ever. And the buyers that we serve are getting absolutely bombarded with this stuff. So if you don't have the ability to personalise and personalise at scale, you're going to be lost in the noise.” – James Palmer · [02:31]
James Palmer:
Yeah. No, I definitely get the paradoxical nature of the question and I think my answer is going to be that it certainly is possible and actually pretty imperative that we do get this right. I think the world that we live in at the moment, we, as B2B organisations are creating more content than ever. And the buyers that we serve are getting absolutely bombarded with this stuff. So if you don't have the ability to personalise and personalise at scale, you're going to be lost in the noise. You're going to be disregarded. You're going to be in choppy waters and this has only really been amplified by the year that we've just had. We've had probably the salesman's favourite channel removed. We can't go and meet our customers and build a personal connection and discuss things in that format.
James Palmer:
So the importance of content has only gone up. But that being said, I don't think everyone is getting this right. I think a loss of the content that we, as sellers are sending to buyers is just disregarded and not on point. So yeah, it's absolutely imperative we get this right. To touch on the, is this a paradox angle of your question. I think this is really interesting. I think most of the best sales people I've ever worked with are very good at being appropriate to a given situation. So they'll understand who they're talking to. They'll understand maybe the correct, they'll correctly identify the sales stage this is at or the stage that the buyer is in their cycle. They'll understand the industry they're in, they'll understand all of these things and they'll provide content that's really appropriate to that given situation.
James Palmer:
But there's a couple of problems with that, right? So, number one, that takes a lot of time and effort, thus not scaling very easily. And secondly, not all salespeople are blessed with that high EQ, that level of experience. So the question really becomes, how can we make it easier to personalise without the constraints of using this much time and this much expertise so that more broadly, you can have more of your sellers be more effective in this way? Yeah.
Things to Double Down On When Trying to Personalise Your Outreach at Scale · [05:00]
Will Barron:
Are we trying to… So I agree with everything you're saying here, right. Expertise is clearly important. When you get on the phone with a seller, at some point in the buying journey, that could be make or break. If I'm buying new cameras for the studio and I speak to one salesperson, no matter how good the content is from the branding, the marketing from that organisation. If I speak to someone and they're an idiot, clearly that's going to turn me massively off on the brand and that purchase. Versus if I speak to someone who has the expertise, can answer my questions, and if they can't answer questions, has the business acumen and the appropriateness to go and say, hey, I will go and ask my boss, I'll ask the product manager, I'll ask whoever and find out the information and get back to you.
Will Barron:
That is a massive turn on. You're more likely to win my business on the back of that. So with that said, when we're trying to shortcut some of this process, when we're trying to hack some of this process, when we're trying to personalise outreach at scale, are we going the wrong way here in that, would it be more valuable for the buyer to have less contact points with more experienced salespeople versus more contact points with less experienced salespeople, with less personalization? If that makes sense. That was a long winded question to just throw at you.
James Palmer:
It was and I think the answer is going to be, it depends on what it is we're selling, where the buyer is in their journey. All of these things, the real question is how do we cut through this noise, right? So how can we be appropriate? So the content the sellers use has to be appropriate, has to hit the right note. It has to be the right piece of content for that buyer at that stage of where they're at. So that's the question is, how do we take what previously has been very reliant on a seller's expertise? How can we scale that? And so, I guess I'm not talking about mass personalization from a marketer's angle. I'm a career long sales person, I'm talking about, how can we do the good things, have those good interactions, but do them more often and spend less time and less effort to make them so. So I think that's the point that I'd probably like to focus on a little bit, because that's something I feel I can speak to reasonably knowledgeably.
Insight: How to Use Software and Tools to Get More Personalization at Scale · [07:23]
Will Barron:
For sure. So tell if I'm wrong here, James, but it seems like the plan of action here is, rather than spam more nonsense emails that no one's going to open anyway, we want to spam more timely emails and we want to leverage less experience of a sales rep to say, Hey, this individual is at this part of the buying cycle. They probably want this content. And can we, am I right in saying, we can use software to realise some of that so that a less experienced salesperson can get the right tools, right media, right advertising, whatever it is in front of the right person at the right time. Is that what we're doing here? Leveraging software and tools to do some of this work, that experience would've covered in the past.
“I think having a data driven approach to content creation and the distribution of it can really help sellers become effective to be able to scale their expertise and to have those great moments of communication, but to do it with a lot less effort and a lot less time sunk into it.” – James Palmer · [08:58]
James Palmer:
Exactly. So to get to this point, what you require is insight. And I think something that has been a huge black hole for go to market teams has been sort of insight into the performance of content. So which content resonates in this geography? Which content resonates in this in industry? What content resonates for this persona? What gets the most time and attention? What is helping us advance our cause and close business? And historically there haven't been great data sets on this, but this, but this is insight is vital if you want to create a personalised experience or an engaging experience, at least. I think that it's really key that you have a way of harvesting insight to understanding what is useful for the people that we're serving. I think to have a data driven approach to content creation and the distribution of it can really help sellers become effective to be able to scale, as we just talked about, scale their expertise to have those great moments of communication, but to do it with a lot less effort and a lot less time sunk into it.
Here’s How You Can Tell Where the Buyer is in the Buyer’s Journey · [09:50]
Will Barron:
For sure. So we'll perhaps touch on size back in a second, which clearly can do some of what we're describing here. I do want to get into data content. And because my experience with working with marketers at medical device sales was, they'd send us all this nonsense that I've never give to anyone because it was totally inappropriate to hand over a flyer in a meeting, so it never got used. So I won't dive into that in a second. But I guess the foundational level before this is, before we send content, how do we know where the buyer is in the buying journey? Now what I mean by this is, perhaps 20 years ago, you could cold call them and ask them where they are. But without that direct access to the buyer to call them and ask them where they're at, before we send someone something, how do we know where they are so that we can make a hypothesis of what they need?
James Palmer:
Yeah. Good point. So there are obviously some manual ways of doing this like you've just alluded to, like talking to them. Wouldn't that be fabulous if you could have a conversation and it would be just laid out for you like that? But there is this, some softer signals, content engagement. How are they engaging with your content? What content are they engaging with? There's a lot that can be divined from understanding what people are engaging with what content, and that will tell you a lot about where they are in a buying cycle and actually inform you of how you should be speaking to them, how you can help them, how you can best serve their buying process.
The Effectiveness of a Content Funnel When Dissecting the Buyer’s Journey · [11:18]
Will Barron:
So this is something… I'm going to be slightly selfish here. I'm going to perhaps twist the conversation towards more of implementation as opposed to individual sales contributor, what they're going to do with this. And we'll flip bit back to the [inaudible 00:11:16] in a second. This is something I'm intrigued about with our content marketing over at salesman.org for our training programme. So am I right in saying, I think what you're outlining here, but I want to hear it from yourself in case I'm totally wrong is, we don't just need a sales funnel, which is getting, it's crushed further and further towards the end of the buying funnel or buying journey.
Will Barron:
What we need is some kind of content funnel so that we can see via different tracking methods, using email gated kind of content. We can see where people are pinging and so we can judge where they are throughout the buying cycle. So am I right in saying that we need perhaps open-ended, broad industry content at one end so we get in the middle of the funnel, so in towards end of the funnel, which pushes people towards a sales call, and then when a individual goes from one to two to three, if we can use software to track that, that's when we know that we should be engaging with them. Am I on the right track Sir?
“Salespeople think that marketing are the mugs and t-shirt department and that the content they come out with is very aspirational and doesn't really speak to what salespeople see on the ground.” – James Palmer · [12:21]
James Palmer:
You're definitely down the right tracks. So going back to a comment you made earlier, I think time memorial, definitely the 20 years I've been in software sales or, well, yeah, software sales. Salespeople think that marketing are the mugs and t-shirt department and that the content they come out with is very aspirational and doesn't really speak to what salespeople see on the ground. And marketing probably think that most people are mouth breathing the [endethols 00:12:39] and want to use the same content they've been using for the last five years and that sales turn up and demand content because of the deal they're working on right here right now, so they want some [upskill 00:12:51] piece of content.
“Salespeople need to build this loop where, not only can you see what content is being sent out, but you can also understand in much more specific detail when your buyer gets this content, how are they engaging with it, which pages, which sections, where are they spending their time? And if you're able to have a feedback loop for that content, then all of a sudden that begins to answer some of the really massive problems that go-to market teams have.” – James Palmer · [13:25]
James Palmer:
So there's this slight disconnect. And I think that disconnect can also be tracked back to the fact there aren't good sets of data to tell you which of your content is performing. So marketing have got no way to say, listen, we're spending our time building out this content and it's valuable. There's no real way to say that. And there's no real way for sales to say, we know which is the right content for this specific situation. So what we're talking about here is building this loop where, not only can you see what content is being sent out, but you can also understand in much more specific detail when your buyer gets this content, how are they engaging with it? Which pages, which sections, where are they spending their time? And if you're able to have a feedback look for that content, then all of a sudden that begins to answer some of the really massive problems that go to market teams have.
“Marketing creates lots of content and depending on whose data you look at, somewhere between 65% and 90% of it never gets used by sales. That’s a black hole of time and money and effort. It's a huge, huge problem. Similarly, sales people will send out content into the black hole and the most they can usually hope for is, did someone open it? You can have spent five hours building a proposal and only the pricing page gets read. If only we had some data to tell us they only ever read the pricing page, then why did we spend five hours on all of this other stuff at this stage, in the cycle, yet they only ever read the price. It's a huge waste of time and there's no feedback for sales.” – James Palmer · [14:04]
James Palmer:
Marketing do create all of this content. And depending on whose data you look at, somewhere between 65% and 90% of it never gets used by sales. What a black hole of time and money and effort. It's a huge, huge problem. Similarly, sales people will send out content into the black hole and not really know… I mean, the most they can usually hope for is, did someone open it? You can have spent five hours building a proposal and only the pricing page gets read. If only we had some data to tell us they only ever read the pricing page, why did I spend five hours on all of this other stuff at this stage, in the cycle? They only ever read the price. Why did I spend this five hours building this proposal times, however many deal cycles you're in? It's a huge waste of time and there's no feedback for sales.
James Palmer:
So the data that you can get back from content, how people are engaging with your content has huge benefits, both on the micro and the macro level. On the micro level, as a salesperson, I can send content out to my prospect and know, do you know what? I sent them a technical white paper and I sent them a case study. They hugely engaged with the white paper, probably the next conversation we're going to have, I need to make sure we've got a technical architect and we're going to gear up for the right phone call. We're going to gear up with the right information. They didn't even open the case studies. They're not at that stage yet. They're not ready to… The final stage of a sales cycle where perhaps case studies become more interesting.
James Palmer:
So on the micro level, you, as a salesperson can get direct feedback from content to tell you, inform you the next best action should be, we should be thinking about this type of thing. On a macro level, as a marketing team, you can amalgamate all of this and say, this piece of content that we produced has been involved in 75% of our sales cycles. This is helping us close business. I can attribute real, honest to goodness, closed one business to this content. Similarly, these five pieces of content haven't been looked at for a year. Why are we spending cycles? Why are we spending cycles on updating this and maintaining this? The sales team either don't use it for good reasons or people don't read it for good reasons. So we either need to get rid of it or update it or do something. But we've got some data now to allow us to make great decisions.
How to Gain the Most Insights From the Content You Send Out · [16:45]
Will Barron:
Let's do things that come from this, James and you're changing my paradigm with some of this content. Because it seems like we could create content specifically to generate insights. We could just do an FAQ document that has all the objections that we would usually face. And if everyone is skipping past the first four objections, we probably know that they're not that valid. They're probably not that big of a deal. And if they stick on page five, which is the pricing objection or whatever it is, the most common one, we know that we need to then feed that back into the content at the top of the funnel and try and alleviate that objection or bring it up ahead of time. Seems like we can create content to generate insights that are useful as opposed to, did someone use this or not. It seems like we get more complicated than this if we chose to.
James Palmer:
Oh, you can get really great insight from your content, that both informs your future content strategy and helps you with your day to day execution. Both. It's very much seller and marketing aligning and enabling.
How to Get More Accurate Feedback From the Content You Send Out · [17:49]
Will Barron:
Yeah. And because if you ask a buyer on a call, we've got these commonly asked questions, yada, yada. One, they're going to be switched off immediately as you say that. Two, they're going to have the guard up at somewhat, depending on the level of trust that you've built with them, because they don't want to just give their information away. And I guess this is slightly weird and maybe we can touch on this in a second but, if they don't realise they're being tracked, which they should assume that they're being tracked, everyone should assume that everything you do on this, that it's being tracked at all times. But if they don't make that realisation, if they're doing this in their own time, they're probably going to give you more accurate feedback via the content than if you've got an engagement and interaction between two people, is that fair to say?
“The people that are engaging with your content regularly, they're sending it to other people, they're spending time on it, these are the people that are going to buy from you. These are the people that are serious, that are actually doing the things they said they were going to do. If you've got ten prospects, the four that are really engaging with your content in the final stage of a sales cycle are the ones that you should be forecasting.” – James Palmer · [19:08]
James Palmer:
A hundred percent. And I think both implicit and explicit. And so what I mean by that, they will explicitly tell you the things they're interested in by what they spend their time on. So previous example of the section A, they spend all of their time on this, they didn't bother with the other stuff. But implicitly as well. So salespeople are managing a prospect, five prospects, ten prospects, however many, and you'll be coming to the end of a quarter. And you'll have a forecast that you're committing to. The people that are engaging with your content regularly, they're sending it to other people, they're spending time on it. These are the people that, implied, these are the people who are going to buy from you. These are the people that are serious, that are actually going to… are doing the things they said they were going to do. If you've got ten prospects, the four that are really engaging with your content in the final stage of a sales cycle are the ones that you should be forecasting. You can definitely take some implied learnings from how people are engaging with your content.
Understanding Buyer Readiness and Likeliness to Buy · [19:40]
Will Barron:
Whether it's seismic coin over tool, is there a way to pull, call it different things by different companies, right? But buyer readiness or likeliness to buy, can we get a score that could go into the CRM on the back of the content that's being consumed of? We know that people have done this, this, and this will make a purchase. And we know that in your funnel, there's 12 people that is in that stage right now. So we can predict some of this, whether it's AI or machine learning.
James Palmer:
Yeah. So further down the funnel… Up the funnel, down the funnel. Up the funnel, the wide open bit that marketing deal with. There's a bunch of technologies that obviously, and processes that's exactly what marketing are trying to do all the time, they're trying to score leads. As people enter the sales funnel, you're talking about exactly the Nirvana, right. It's a case of, if you combine some of the data we're talking about with perhaps some of your CRM data, so who actually bought, and when they bought and things like this. You can begin to score your content to say, if you send this case study out at stage two of your sales cycle to people in this region or this persona, you're 5% more likely to close your deal. You can actually get to the point where you're able to advise your sales team on what content is helping close business and is statistically more likely to help them close business?
Data Feedback on How Your Prospects are Consuming Your Content · [21:15]
Will Barron:
For sure. because that's valuable, not just for salespeople, right? It's probably even less valuable for salespeople than it is sales leadership, who have to collect this at scale and then report up the food chain as well. If they can say, Hey, last year we were at this place with this amount of content, with this many leads. Now we're at the same place with arguably or provable more effective content and more leads then people are going to be getting, throwing bonuses around. Aren't they?
“I think all salespeople start out on a spectrum where they're either process-oriented people or they're people-oriented people. And then over a period of time, if you want to be good at sales, if you want to stay in sales as a career, you learn enough about the other end of the spectrum to be good at your job.” – James Palmer · [22:13]
James Palmer:
Yeah. And genuinely, we have customers who, once you've got some data flowing back on how your content's been used both internally and externally. We've had customers switch off 70% of their content and not receive a phone call from salespeople complaining because they know this stuff is obsolete or ineffective and they've just been spending huge cycles updating it, for no other reason than, they had no way of being able to stack rank their content and understand what was the most effective. So yeah, I think to segue for a second into a slightly wishy washy, personal opinion, I think all salespeople start out on a spectrum somewhere of they're either process-oriented people or they're people-oriented people. And then over a period of time, if you want to be good at sales, if you want to stay in sales as a career, you learn enough about the other end of the spectrum to be good at your job. Right.
James Palmer:
But I start out with the people and I like people, I like understanding, I enjoy that we're all different. I like understanding how we can work together to do something clever or good or make a difference. And so data from me in sales, a lot of it is very focused on the process end of the spectrum, right? How much pipeline do you have? We know that we want four times whatever your target is to be able to hit that. How many deals do we have at this opportunity stage? How many calls did you make this week? How many meetings did you have this week? Lots of it is very focused on managing people and process and that kind of thing. The reason why I personally like this data set, this data driven approach to content is because it really speaks to how can we do a good job for the people we're serving? What content is going to be really effective for them? What can… We're almost giving them advice. We're saying people in your situation-
Will Barron:
I don't think we almost. We are literally consulting with the way you're describing, which is really valuable.
James Palmer:
Yeah, exactly. We're saying, we happen to know, not just gut instinct but we actually do know that other of our customers in your situation, whether that situation be geography or persona or sales cycle stage, whatever it might be, we know that they found this kind of stuff effective and useful. So have this, we'll tailor it towards you and yeah, let us know what you think. And you'll let us know what you think both by inviting us into your sales process, but also you'll let us know what you think by how you consume that content. And that will keep feeding our approach, right?
Will Barron:
Sure. I love this because this goes layers and layers deeper of then when you intertwine like a gong or a [chorister 00:25:03] AI, and you go, oh, this report, this data points, this objection is coming up over and over and over again. Then you can create content. You're not just relying on sales people to feed it back, you can then rely on the buyer and conversations to feed back into all this. And I've said this on the podcast hundreds of times now, at some point, all this is going to be so automated that there's just going to be a human shaking hands over… No human at the end of it, both the buying and the selling process, it has to be. It's going to get so effective, it's going to get so nailed down that a bot is going to be able to add so much value at the top of the sales process, with content, with what we're describing, that salespeople who are just pushing round paper will just be obliterated.
“We've had thousands of people go through our sales code assessment and 50% of the people who go through it have no defined sales process. That number shocks me.” – Will Barron · [25:55]
Will Barron:
But with that said, James, you said something here, you key that anecdote with it being wishy washy, whether process, people. And I want to add a layer of data to that from ourselves. So over at salesman.org, we've had thousands of people go through our sales code assessment and 50% of the people who go through it have no defined sales process. So that number shocks me, these individuals who are paying for a training product most of this didn't include our enterprise clients. This is most people paying for a training product out their own money in their own pocket. So they're keen, they're clearly open to the idea of learning and developing. They're not just some sales person who's not done any work on themselves and no training in the past 20 years and they're just sat on their job, waiting to get sacked. These are productive individuals.
Will Barron:
50% of them don't have a sales process. And we know I won't quote the numbers because I'm not sure off the top of my head, but it's like 90% of individuals who have, if not more, nice fit of individuals who are successful and earn over a certain category within our assessment. Salary wise and commission wise and hit targets regularly, all have a sales process. So clearly sales process is incredibly important. 50% of the people who take the sales code assessment don't have a defined process.
Why All Salespeople Need a Well Formulated Sales Process · [27:02]
Will Barron:
And what we're describing here, James, seemingly it falls apart if there's not a sales process, at least in the background that's being run through. Because if we're just sending random bits of content at random times, it's very difficult to pull that data and to make it relevant then of, if I've got a piece of content that marketing wants me to send towards the end of the sales process and I send it at the beginning, well, the metrics are going to get tanked, that it's no engagement, no one's viewing it, there's no consumption of the content. Whereas if it's put at the end of the sales process, it's going to do really good because that's what we've designed it for. So with that said, then James, how much of all of what we're talking about comes back to sales fundamentals of having a defined sales process?
“However great you think you are in any given situation, if there isn't a process to make sure you do the good things repeatedly and in a systematic way, then you're only ever going to be marginally successful or occasionally successful. To be repeatedly successful, it has to be underpinned by a process.” – James Palmer · [27:46]
James Palmer:
I mean, like I said to you, I start out with the people end of the spectrum. But after 20 years of doing this, you come to realise that, however great you think you are in any given situation, if there isn't a process to make sure you do the good things repeatedly and in a systematic way, then you're only ever going to be marginally successful or occasionally successful. To be repeatedly successful, it has to be underpinned by a process. And I think, what I'm advocating for here is not complete content automation because in the end we are humans dealing with humans and you need some flexibility to be able to make choices, to react to situations that you see yourself in. So we're not at the point where the bots are taking over vision of the future. We're definitely not at that point.
James Palmer:
But we can definitely give salespeople a pallet of good choices and promote to them what has been successful before and do so at relevant stages of a sales cycle, but it is all underpinned by sales cycle. It's all underpinned by sales fundamentals. If you can't do good discovery and qualification, then how can you really understand what the best content to providers? There's some off signals that you can pick up but in the end, you've got to understand what stage of a sales cycle am I at? What are the best things to be doing? What are the appropriate things to be doing at this stage of a sales cycle? Matching those up and then providing content, but with some extra insight, right? So not only can we be better consultative salespeople because we know this content has really resonated with people like you, but we can also get that informal feedback as people view it and read it. This was a good fit. They did get value from this. This thing over here, swinging a mess, not for them, wasn't important. Move along.
Is What You’re Sending Out Improving Your Sales Outcomes? · [29:50]
Will Barron:
So let's rev up the show here, James, getting real practical for the audience. The quota carrying… As I would describe, even myself, quota carrying, knuckle dragon salesperson who doesn't have the budget to buy tens of thousands of dollars a month's worth of sales enablement software. Now the answer to this question might be to drop you a message on LinkedIn and introduce the sales management or marketing leadership so they can buy a product or service that does some of this for them. But for anyone that… And that's a fair answer if that is the case, but for someone who doesn't have the software in place, perhaps they have somewhat of a sales process at the back of their mind. Perhaps they have some kind of support from marketing, but they're not leading these initiatives. What can an individual salesperson do to implement some of what we're talking about to find out whether, what they're sending out is effective or not?
James Palmer:
Yeah. I think if I go back to something I said earlier, the best sales people I've worked with are very good at this. They just do it in a much more manual way, right? So it's having an idea that content is not one size fits all. Having an idea that, if you don't tailor this content, people are simply not going to… There's mounds of statistic that tell you people are not going to engage with it. So people spend the time tailoring your content, realise that content is trial and error. What works for one might not work for another, but look for some feedback, was that the right content for you? What other areas am I, what are we missing here? What could I be providing for you?
James Palmer:
Ask the questions, don't just think I'm going to send one piece of content and good luck with that. Ask for some feedback on it, because that will help you manually do what I've been talking about today. That's what the best salespeople that I've worked with have done throughout their careers is, assess the situation, ask good questions and react accordingly. The suggestion here is that the content that you send is part of that acting accordingly. Tailor it and send something that's going to resonate and work.
Pattern Recognition When Analysing the Content You Send Out · [32:10]
Will Barron:
For sure. So to just go back to the premise that we started the show with James, of personalising our B2B outreach at scale. I think what we're saying here, I don't want to put words in your mouth, you tell me if I'm wrong. What we're saying here is to test, have a hypothesis, have a process laid out in front of you. Test a piece of content at different parts of the process, different piece of content. Engage and suss out what works, what doesn't. And then we're looking for patterns. Aren't we? This allows us to scale. If we see that this piece of content, it should… Buyers are all over it to the same point of the process that then solves at scale. The email that we send when the buyer reaches out to us, when the buyer's asking about pricing, when the buyer does one, two or three things. Is that how we scale all this by working out through trial and error, through AB testing, through having a hypothesis and using the scientific method, we are looking for patterns. Is that how we scale all of this?
James Palmer:
It is. I think you mentioned medical device, the medical device sales industry. We're a medical device company, we build whatever machines, they're in hospitals all over the place. And a couple of years before they get end of life be, we need to send them a letter saying, your machine's going to be end of life. So you send them a letter and probably the data you're going to get back on that is no one really reads it or someone opens it once and never looks at it. But at that stage, they're a customer. They're somewhere between happy and not happy, but they're a customer.
James Palmer:
And what if we were to send an end of life letter, but we were to send them some content that showed them what their options might be for the upgrade, right? And we built that in, and now we send that along and we see that the engagement with that content is vastly different to a static letter that's telling them in a legal way, two years from now, your machine's going to end of life and we've got some other options for you. Please call us. How about we seed that with some content. And then we look at the engagement rates on that, and you'll probably find there's going to be a vast difference. That's a massive oversimplification. I know, but it is exactly exactly what we've been talking about.
Will Barron:
I don't think you're oversimplifying. The last company I worked for, multi billion dollar privately owned, family owned company. We did nothing like that ever. It was, Hey, let me just check the serial number on this box that's in the theatre, it looks a bit old. Then you'd call the office and go, Hey, this has been out of use of seven years. Why are they still using it? And then you would engage in the conversation.
James Palmer:
You should probably have a newer one of these for a whole host of reasons. But yeah.
Will Barron:
Yeah. The cobwebs inside, it's a part of the issue here. And I've been in some places, I can't see too much, because I don't want to be [could 00:34:56] again, liable for what I say, but I may or may not, allegedly have been in places where medical devices have literally smelt, they've been on fire because they've not been maintained. And some of the devices that I may or may not have allegedly worked with in the past, they use really high power bulbs to get light inside the patient. Now it's all switched to LEDs, I believe, but they were using incandescent bulbs to do this. And you could smell the fact and it's just because they hadn't been used in years. They'd be wheeled in an emergency and there was dust on the bulb. That's an instant fire hazard. Last thing you want when a patient is on the table is a fire on the camera system that's allowing you to see what you're going on inside the patient itself.
Will Barron:
And so I've had these conversations and it was because, and I'm doubling down on your point here because I don't think it's an oversimplification. An automated sequence like that, which can be done super easy with software, whatever that software is, would hopefully generate new business, but could add value to the buyer in that it's just a prompt to them that some of these things need to be looked at, updated, changed, and obviously then it restarts a conversation with you, without you having to call, call, pester, annoy individuals. And so that can, depending on the market size, whether you're in account management, as opposed to hunting for new business, that could give you an uptake of 10%, 20%, 30%, depending on the demographic of the people that you're engaging with, just by one simple automated email. So I think that's really valuable in its own right.
How the Best Salespeople Scale Their Sales Processes · [36:22]
James Palmer:
Yeah. And you know, we've personalised some content not based on the doctor's name or whether he likes or she likes golf. We've personalised content based on people that are two years out from the end of life of this product. Here are the kind of things that they should be or will be thinking about. Let's provide them with the kind information that's going to resonate with them. And one of those types of information might be in three years time, this is going to smell like it's been on fire and that's not great. So yeah, I think if you think about personalization in a sales sense, not necessarily purely a marketing sense, but what is good information for them at this stage? Then yeah, that's how you scale yourself as a good salesperson.
Will Barron:
And think of that as an email subject line to get clicks. Does your camera system smell like burning flesh or something like that? You're going to get a high click through rate on that, right?
James Palmer:
If that's in my field of responsibility, I'm probably clicking on that email.
Parting Thoughts · [37:31]
Will Barron:
Of course. Well with that, James, tell us where we can find out more about you mate, where can we find out more about you and everything that you're up to?
James Palmer:
Yeah, I'm on LinkedIn. I work at Seismic, you mentioned a couple of times and yeah, drop me a line on LinkedIn. I'd be happy to connect and hear from anyone.
Will Barron:
Good stuff. Well I'll link to Seismic, your LinkedIn profile. Everything that we talked about in this episode in the show notes over at salesman.org. [inaudible 00:37:53] with that James. I appreciate the… Hopefully this was a conversation that was at a high level for individuals who have aspirations to get into, whether it's sales enablement, content management within the organisation, and maybe like a sales adjacent role. But I think we got real practical at the end, which is useful for anyone. Any one of us, maybe I'm including you rightly or wrongly here, but us knuckle dragging, quota carrying sales people. I think there's value there as well. So with that, mate, I want to thank you for your time, your expertise and joining us on the Salesman podcast.
5 Free Sales Tools: A Guide for Serious B2B Professionals
Dec 15, 2021
Many people don't understand what we, as sales reps do every day. They think it's all about buddying up with leads. It's delivering that final “can't say no” pitch. And it's about popping champagne corks after a successful close.
But what most don't see is all the work that sales and marketing teams put in, leading up to the deal. The prospecting. The qualifying. The endless emails, phone calls, and messages—most of which go unanswered. Making it in this industry takes salesmanship, of course. But being a sales rep requires a lot of admin work, too.
And these days, if you're handling all that admin work on your own, you're wasting valuable time you could spend selling.
Enter sales tools.
These tools let you automate that arduous legwork rather than tackling it all yourself. From gathering info on leads to taking the guesswork out of when to ask for a sales presentation, these tools help streamline your process and ultimately make you a more successful salesperson.
This guide takes a look at 5 of the best free sales tools you need to start using today.
Do You Need Sales Tools? (Hint… Yes!)
While the old pen n' paper and Rolodex way of managing your sales process may have worked at the start of your career, things have changed. And fast.
Both sales productivity tools and sales automation tools are now critical if you want to scale your sales outreach and generate a solid sales pipeline.
These days, a sales rep needs to be quicker, smarter, and more organized than ever to meet competitive quotas. And implementing sales tools into your processes is one of the best ways to achieve all three.
But let's look at the numbers here to give you a bit of perspective.
Salespeople spend 17% of their day prospecting and researching leads. (HubSpot)
More than 30% of sales-related activities can be automated. (McKinsey)
High-performing sales teams are 2.3 times more likely than underperforming teams to use guided selling. (Salesforce)
44% of sales leaders who will exceed revenue in 2021 use competitive intelligence and market data. (HubSpot)
Companies that incorporate high-level automation into their sales process generate around 16% more leads compared to those that incorporate low-level or no automation. (Hinge Research)
How Can Sales Tools Help?
Here's how having the right sales tools on hand can make you a more effective salesperson.
Find the Right Leads – You know it takes a double-digit number of leads (sometimes more) to produce a single conversion. Lead generation can be tough! But what if you could cut those leads in half? Many sales tools give you the info you need to spend more time on the right leads—the ones most likely to convert. And less time on the duds.
Streamline Your Processes – Sales reps spend an excessive amount of time on admin tasks. Anywhere from 21% according to Harvard Business Review to 63.4% from InsideSales. One of the most significant benefits of using sales tools is that many can take care of most of those admin tasks for you. From lead scoring and report building to first touches and follow-ups, sales tools handle the tedious stuff so you can focus on selling.
Reduce Costly Errors – As experienced and talented as you may be, everyone slips up once in a while. When you leverage sales tools that can automate the process and look after customer data, you don't have to worry about missing communications or letting leads slip through your fingers. As Daniel Disney, master of social selling, put it, “We are human. So, we make a lot of mistakes. Whereas having things automated can help win opportunities you otherwise would have missed.”
Let You Develop a Proven Sales Cadence – Robust analytics and reporting are often included in modern sales tools. And for customer relationship management (CRM) tools, in particular, you can analyze your sales cadences to see what's working and what's falling flat with prospects. This lets you finetune your cadences and create even more effective sales processes.
5 Best Sales Tool You Can Start Using for Free
So, now that we know why sales tools help make you a more effective salesperson let's get to the best tools in the industry. All of the tools listed are free to use or can be tested out using a free trial or demo.
1) HubSpot for Customer Relationship Management (CRM)
HubSpot's CRM is a fantastic way to keep track of leads, automate your sales flow, and make your processes easier than ever. It includes tools for sales and marketing intelligence, email marketing, live chat, templates, click-to-call functionality, and so much more.
Best of all, it's free forever.
If you're looking for sales analytics, document tracking and a sales tools to track your sales conversations, then HubSpot has you covered.
They also offer more advanced CRM tools and functionality for a price. But for a free one-stop shop for a more efficient sales process, HubSpot is a great choice for sales professionals.
Sales professionals waste so much of their time following up with leads that just aren't a fit. And part of the reason for that is a lack of information about the lead. So the more information you have, the better you can segment which leads are a match and which are a waste of energy.
Zoominfo is a sales intelligence tool that fills in all the missing pieces about your leads, including company and contact info. It also offers a few email and phone automation features built right into the platform.
Prospecting is a huge sales reps. And the less time you waste finding your perfect leads, the more time you can spend on converting them into a satisfied customer.
Apollo.io is a prospect searcher that identifies potential leads based on the qualities you set. It searches through a global database of 200 million contacts and 10 million businesses to find a match for your business.
For instance, if you're looking for VPs of Marketing in companies that raise Series A funding within the past three months, you can set the parameters and send Apollo searching. For fast lead generation and booking sales meetings, this is killer.
It has a free trial and costs just $49 per month to upgrade.
Alternatives to check out: FindThatLead (free version), Hunter (free version)
4) Zapier for Sales Automation
Plenty of apps and software integrate seamlessly and allow your systems to pass data between themselves. But there are twice as many that aren't set up for that kind of cross-talk.
Zapier helps bridge this gap. It's one of the most popular automation tools available today. And it's downright essential for sales reps that want to streamline their processes by cutting down on admin work.
There's no complicated coding required. And yes, there's a free plan (with some limitations).
You can link your customer relationship management sofware, sales productivity tools and even customer data together to make scheduling meetings as quick as possible.
Alternatives to check out: Integromat (free version), Automate (free version)
5) Wingman for Sales Training
No sales tool guide is complete without touching on self-improvement. Even if you do use the previous tools to automate ¾ of your tasks, your success still comes down to closing deals. And if your salesmanship is lacking, you're simply not going to reach your targets.
Wingman is a great way to analyze sales interactions and identify areas of improvement. Did you not discuss pricing at a critical point? Are you connecting with a decision-maker? Did you miss your follow-up? Wingman documents and alerts you to gaps in your processes. And with it, you can tighten up your game, reduce sales cycle length and close more sales.
Wingman offers a 7-day free trial, and it's $60 per month per rep after that. They also do plans for a full sales team with multiple team members too.
Alternatives to check out: Drift (free version), Reply (free trial)
Start Upping Your Game With Sales Tools
Being successful as a sales rep is about more than delivering an irresistible pitch. There's all the tedious lead scoring. The relentless prospecting. The no-response follow-ups. The sluggish nurturing. And that all takes time to do (and lots of it).
But with the sales tools above, you can streamline your processes and automate a lot of that monotonous work. And that means you can focus less on admin and more on getting that win.
Don't wait for sales managers to give you the CRM software, marketing automation and market inteligence tools that you need to hit your quota. Get a free trial, set up your own sales stack and prove the ROI before going to your sales manager and showing them what's possible.
Your sales team (and your wallet) will thank you for it.
HubSpot's Entire SaaS Sales Process (Step-By-Step Guide) | Salesman Podcast
Dec 14, 2021
Dan Tyre is a 14-year-veteran of HubSpot, hired as employee number six, and the company’s first salesperson. On this episode of the Salesman Podcast, Dan Tyre explains, from start to finish, the entire HubSpot SaaS sales process.
You'll learn:
Sponsored by:
Free SalesCode assessment
Learn your strengths and weaknesses in an instant. Taken by over 10,000+ of your competitors. Don't get left behind.
Take the free assessment
Featured on this episode:
Host - Will Barron
Founder of Salesman.org
Guest - Dan Tyre
HubSpot Sales Veteran
Crystal Knows – The personality platform for growing businesses.
Transcript
Will Barron:
This episode of the show is brought to you from the salesman.org HubSpot Studio.
Will Barron:
Coming up on today's episode of The Salesman Podcast.
Dan Tyre:
There's a tonne of things we're going to talk about today that have changed. The one thing that hasn't changed is the hardest part is getting to the right people.
Dan Tyre:
If you're engaging professionally, people love it. They will respond to you. And in fact, in the classes that I teach, cohort-based training for HubSpot, the average connection is about 12%.
Dan Tyre:
The empowered buyer is they don't talk to a salesperson until they're damn good and ready. First of all, globally, about 93% to 96% of people will Google or social media something before they talk to a salesman.
Will Barron:
Hello, SalesNation. My name is Will Barron, and I'm the host of The Salesman Podcast, the world's most downloaded B2B sales show.
Will Barron:
On today's episode, we have the absolute legend, absolute legend, Dan Tyre. He was the original of HubSpot Sales Team. He is now a speaker, an author, an executive over at HubSpot. On today's episode. Dan, step by step, tells you how to prospect for new buyers in 2021 and moving forward to 2022 and beyond. Everything that we talked about in this episode is available in the show notes over at salesman.org/Dan. And with that said, let's jump right into it.
Will Barron:
Dan, welcome to The Salesman Podcast.
Dan Tyre:
Boom. I've been the waiting for this three weeks, bro, super excited. As you know, I did my research. I want to make sure I'm bringing the big energy for all of your listeners, and I'm super excited to be here.
The Reason Why Most Salespeople Struggle Having Conversations with Prospects · [01:39]
Will Barron:
I'm glad to have you on, mate. Okay, so you kind of posed me in our pre-interview back and forth, the topic of this show. I purposefully, I've not dove into it more of it with you, I purposefully left the open-ended. So Dan, with that, get us started, mate.
Will Barron:
In your opinion or if there's facts of there's data, there's anything goes alongside this, perfect. What is the biggest hurdle that me, as a sales person, and the thousands and thousands of people are going to watch and view this over the next few weeks, those salespeople as well, what's the biggest hurdle that we have to booking meetings, getting conversations started right now?
“The one thing that hasn't changed in sales in the last 50 years is actually the hardest part and this is getting to the right people to even have a conversation with you.” – Dan Tyre · [02:20]
Dan Tyre:
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, of course. And guess what? That hasn't changed in the last 50 years. There's a tonne of things we're going to talk about today that have changed. The one thing that hasn't changed is the hardest part is getting to the right people to even have that conversation. And in 2021, hold it, no one picks up their phone, or at least that's what people say. By the way, that's not true. So in the first two and a half minutes, I've contradicted myself. Lots of people pick up the phone. You just have to do it right.
Dan Tyre:
Number two, voicemail less, it's kind of a different reason why people and how people listen to voicemail, still important, but it's a little bit different purpose. And that hurdle of getting to the right person and talking to them about how it works, visibility, connection, and intention, is the biggest challenge that virtually everybody has. It takes the longest time. It's a very refined skill.
Dan Tyre:
When I started my sales career, like salespeople did prospecting today, SDR teams, specific and focused. Make sure that everybody is doing a special part of accelerating and identifying the best output.
Are We Living in the Golden Age of Sales? · [03:30]
Will Barron:
Dan, let me just take this totally sideways for a second, then we'll come back on track. Is this, everything you just said there, can we turn this on its head? Is this a golden age for salespeople in the fact that we have LinkedIn, the buyers are visible, and then we've got email. We've got all these ways to communicate with them that we didn't have. Well, I didn't have, because I wasn't selling 20, 30 years ago.
“If you are engaging professionally, people love it. They will respond to you. And in fact, in the classes that I teach, the average connection is about 12%. After they graduate from the class, it goes between 25% and 40%.” – Dan Tyre · [03:55]
Dan Tyre:
Yeah, of course. It's a double-edged sword. If in fact you're doing it the right way, if you are engaging professionally, people love it. They will respond to you. And in fact, in the classes that I teach, cohort-based training for HubSpot, the average connection is about 12%. After they graduate from the class, it goes between 25% and 40%, and if you're not getting 25% to 40% connections, I'm going to teach you how. Just listen for the next 17 minutes. And it may be a little loud and a lot of high energy, but I'm going to teach exactly how to do it. Because if you do it right, people love it. They're like, “Oh my goodness. Yeah. I definitely want to talk with you.”
“Cold calling is using the same script, calling indiscriminately 110 times a day. And do you know the conversion percentage for actual cold calling? It's 1.2%, which means you're wasting 99% of your time, effort, and money.” – Dan Tyre · [04:52]
Dan Tyre:
But it's different and you're not calling everybody and you're not cold calling. People go, “Oh, I'm not [inaudible 00:04:37].” I go, “You don't cold call?” They go, “Yes.” I always ask in my phone presentations, “Raise your hand if you Coca.” There's always three guys, they're always in the last row. Always dudes, never women. And they're like, “I cold call.” I go, “No, you don't.” They're like, “Yes, we call people that we've never met.” I'm like, “That's not cold calling.” Cold calling is using the same script calling indiscriminately 110 times a day. And do you know the conversion percentage for actual cold calling?
Will Barron:
1%, 2%, 3%?
Dan Tyre:
Yeah, it's 1.2%, which means you're wasting 99% of your time, effort, and money. It's ridiculous. Anybody who does it, they … Oh, is there anything else in business if you wasted 98% of your time, effort, and money you'd still do it? Of course not. That's the antithesis of efficiency. But people still do it. I'm like, “What you got to do is warm call.” They're like, “Ooh, what's that?” I got a famous blog article about 15 things that you can do to warm call, and that's what most people do. They just categorise it a little bit different. Outbound can be as effective as inbound.
Dan Tyre:
Now you and I were just chatting about the inbound revolution and how it was totally amazing. And I wrote a book called The Inbound Organisation, which you have in front of you, which is super cool. But I've been in sales positions and sales leadership positions 42 years. First 30 something years, it was push, push, push. Now it's help, help, help.
Engaging with the Empowered Buyer · [06:01]
Dan Tyre:
In 2007, everything changed with the inbound revolution, because you had the empowered buyer. You ever heard with the empowered buyer?
Will Barron:
Yeah. I hope I am one.
“Globally, about 93% to 96% of people will Google or social media something before they talk to a salesperson.” – Dan Tyre · [06:22]
Dan Tyre:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. You are. You just told me a story of what you are. The empowered buyer is they don't talk to a salesperson until they're damn good and ready. First of all, globally, about 93% to 96% of people will Google or social media something before they talk to a salesperson. And I'm thinking, what are the other 6% doing? They must be walking through an airport or something like that. Of course that's what you do. Oh my goodness.
Dan Tyre:
You want to find a little bit about a background. You want to see reviews, you want to understand a little bit about the texture of what you're purchasing. That's why social media and inbound is so important. And then you only want to engage with salespeople when you're darn good and ready. And what percentage of the sales process do you think people want to go through before they actually talk to a salesperson?
Will Barron:
The numbers are all over the place, but between 70%, 80%.
Dan Tyre:
Yeah, that's right. And so it goes all the way up to 99% if you're buying a car. When you're buying a Mini, you walk into that place and you're like, “Okay, I did my research. This is what I want to pay.” And if they don't give it to you, you walk out, that's 99%. That drastically changes the process. And so now with the empowered buyer, the inbound revolution has been going on for 14 years. It started in inbound marketing. Now it's inbound sales, now it's growth. Oh my goodness. HubSpot was the spiritual leader, invented the term. But now it's in the public domain. And just like you were saying, it becomes very, very valuable. So salespeople have to morph.
Dan Tyre:
One of my main foundation is you can't do it the old way. You have to do it the new way. That means you have to warm call in a way where you're helping, not selling. And sales plus helping is shelping, I just thought that up this morning. Shelping, say it there, Will.
Will Barron:
No, because that is a terrible, terrible … I don't want that to become a thing. Definitely don't want. I was shelping people.
Dan Tyre:
I invented shmarketing. You've ever heard of shmarketing?
Will Barron:
That makes slightly more sense.
Dan Tyre:
Okay. I know, I know, a little bit more. But I'm famous for taking words and making them a more dopey word together. But shelping, or helping people, is the foundation for engagement. All right, so when you're trying to get noticed by somebody, the first thing you got to do is you've got to identify your ideal customer profile. And in the old days, you called everybody.
Dan Tyre:
When I started my sales career, I'd pick up the phone and I'd call you. I'd called somebody in Spain. I'd call somebody in New York City and I'd say the exact same thing. That doesn't fly. You got to get the data. You got to get the facts. You've got to understand where you do your best work. And you've got to limit where and who you call to where you can add the most value, where you get all excited and energised and you're being like, “No, no, no. We work with manufacturing companies in Leads, who have at least $3 million worth of revenue, that are trying to get more productivity out of their website and want to lean into e-commerce. Does that sound like you?”
Dan Tyre:
And when you focus on that particular niche, you're going to do so much better. Why are you going to do so much better if you focus, Will?
Why Targeting the Right People Drives the Best Results in Sales · [09:15]
Will Barron:
You're going to do so much better when you focus because, well, it's targeted. You're having a conversation as opposed to your marketing. You're not just spamming people. You're starting an insightful conversation.
Dan Tyre:
100%. Number one, you know that industry pretty good because you talk about it every day. You know the vocabulary, you know the seasonality, you know what's going on, they know … We're just talking about my co-author, Todd Hockenberry, when he walks into a manufacturing distribution, he starts talking about patents and delivery time and I'm thinking … In the first three sentences, is you're like, “Okay, this guy knows manufacturing in industrial.” And if it doesn't matter if you're professional services, recruiting, whatever, just pick a swim lane and stay in it.
“It doesn't matter if you're in professional services, recruiting, whatever, just pick a swim lane and stay in it. In the old days, it was call everybody. Today, the riches are in the niches.” – Dan Tyre · [09:50]
Dan Tyre:
In the old days, it was call everybody. Today, the riches are in the niches. Oh wait a second, we're in the UK. If you want to go to the beaches, you got to work the niches. And you got to make sure that you are good at that.
Dan Tyre:
The next thing you got to do is let me-
Here’s How You Identify Your Ideal Prospects · [10:10]
Will Barron:
Dan, Dan, Dan. Slow down, slow down. Let me just reign you in for just a split second here. Because it's one thing to say we need to find an ideal buyer persona. We need to target them with our messaging, our communications. For an individual salesperson, quota carrying individual who's listening to this right now, is this something that they should be uncovering themselves? As in, they warm call, cold call, whatever, data gather across a marketplace, find who responds, narrow down the messaging? Or is this something that marketing should be giving them, sales operation should be giving them? Where do they get this information from of who they should be targeting?
Dan Tyre:
It's awesome. It's the latter if it is available, but if not, then you salespeople should figure it out their own. And guess what? They already know. They know when they call recruiting firms or podcast companies or marketing firms that they close in a higher clip. One of the key points of selling in 2021 that makes it better is you have access to all the data. If you have a modern CRM that shows you you're closed percentage by vertical market, you know the areas where you're closing deals at a 10%, as opposed to 90%. And if you're smart, where do you spend the time?
Dan Tyre:
You spend time with a higher output where you're getting a greater return on investment. And in the old days, we didn't have access to that information. You couldn't run reports like that in Siebel or Dynamics. It was impossible. Now, with modern CRM, you can get that information right there.
Dan Tyre:
So I'm all always looking at where I can provide the most value, where I get the best traction, and then I get to really understand that industry. I focus on, I understand. And then I'm like, “No, no, no, no. I work with professional services companies that practise inbound that are based in Leads, that have bestselling podcasts that want to get a little great speaker guest. Does that sound like you?”
Dan Tyre:
Now, when I start the conversation like that, what do you think?
Will Barron:
You think, “It's me. It is me. This person is speaking directly to me.”
Dan Tyre:
You're like, “Oh my goodness.” You're looking around, going, “That's weird. How does that guy know?” Guess what? I know you're a chemistry major. I know you went to Bangor University. I know you went to Leads. I know you. It took me three minutes to find that out. And yes, you're a little bit of a mini celebrity, but anybody you want, you can … You ever want to make somebody happy, you say, “Oh, Will, I just tweeted out that last Twitter promo about your upcoming …” And you'll be like, “What?” You're like, “Yeah, my 40,200 followers.” I don't care if you have three Twitter followers.
Dan Tyre:
Once I retweet you, I'm in a different category. Now all of a sudden you're like … Okay, so when you're doing your outreach, you get your ideal customer profile. The next thing you do is you practise your greeting. And when I call you, I say … Ring, ring, say hello.
Will Barron:
Hello.
Dan Tyre:
Will, this is Dan from HubSpot.
Will Barron:
Hi, Dan from HubSpot.
Dan Tyre:
Thanks for picking up the phone. And when I say that, what do you feel?
Will Barron:
I feel confused because that's not what I'm expecting.
Dan Tyre:
Ah, yes. You're like, “What? Who? What?” So the first time you hear, the first … What I tell everybody, when you're going in the engagement, you got to make sure you have good voice tone when you call. When I call, you know it's me. Now you don't have to be Dan Tyre with the big energy, because if I thought you were … I actually, I should use the small energy because you're a super smart guy. I'd be like, “Will, this is Dan from HubSpot.” Very articulate-
Will Barron:
If you call like that, I'd be thinking that you were thinking I'm thick if you're talking that slow.
Dan Tyre:
No, not necessarily, but I want to … And as soon as you jump in with your big energy, then I'm going to match it, behaviour modification. There is a plugin for LinkedIn called Crystal Knows that will give me the personality characteristics of the person I'm talking to. But I can see it in the picture. And with a little bit research, I can understand whether I go big energy, medium energy, low energy.
“Unfortunately, a lot of people who are outbound calling don't sound interested. They sound bored. They don't sound like they want to talk with the prospects.” – Dan Tyre · [14:05]
Dan Tyre:
Anyway, I want to sound good. I want to sound sharp. A lot of people who are doing outbound calling, they don't sound interested. They sound bored. They don't sound like they want to talk with me. I sound like I want to talk them and-
How to Get Yourself Riled Up Before a Sales Call · [14:16]
Will Barron:
One second though, how do you turn that on? Again, it's one thing to say or make the … use describing words. How do you turn that on? Clearly this is a skill that you have. It's something that I don't necessarily have.
Dan Tyre:
No, you have it.
Will Barron:
I have to listen to, for example, I listen to music before a podcast episode and get myself riled up for it.
Dan Tyre:
No, it's all right. You can do it.
Will Barron:
How do you go about just switching that up?
Dan Tyre:
This is how you do it. Number one, two cups of Guatemalan coffee. That'll get anybody rocked. Number two, stand up. When you sit down, all the stress goes through your shoulder. You're thinking, “Oh, this is a business kind of thing.” I'm moving around here, Will. I'm lifting weights. I'm boxing. I'm walking around. And the brain is a very interesting thing and when I say, “Will, this is Dan from HubSpot.” You don't think like, “Dan from HubSpot.” You're going through a little bit, it placed what we call your lizard brain with the Seth Godin … Do you know Seth Godin?
Will Barron:
Yep. Of course.
Dan Tyre:
Okay. The baldheaded marketing guru. Not Seth Rogan, the guy, the Canadian comedian who smokes a lot of dope.
Will Barron:
You're talking purple cows, not smoking weed.
Dan Tyre:
Yeah, you got it. He's like, “Okay, when you are connecting with somebody the first time on the phone, they don't really think through with their executive functioning. They go right to your caveman brain.” And I'm like, “Yes, that's true.”
Dan Tyre:
So when I say, “Will, this is Dan from HubSpot.” You may take between three and sometimes 25 seconds thinking, “Okay, Dan from HubSpot, do I know this guy? Is he my cousin? Did I like root for … Did I go to college with him? What did I do? How did I …” And you're going through and then you're going to do exactly what you're going to say. You may be confused. You're going to be like, “Yes?” And then that's where the line, “Thanks for picking up the phone,” comes in.
Dan Tyre:
We used to say, “How are you doing today?” But if I ask you, “How are you doing?” How do you feel?
Will Barron:
I feel like there's a salesperson on the other end of the phone.
Dan Tyre:
Exactly. You put me in a category, I'm never going to get out of that. So what we found about four years ago is if I say, “Will, thanks for picking up the phone.” You're like, “Okay, that's flat out weird.” I've already sent you two curve balls in the first 12 seconds and I'm totally in control. And you're like, “Okay” And then you'll say, “Okay, why are you calling me?” Or, “How can I help you?” And I'll be like, “Ugh, it doesn't sound like you're expecting my call.”
Dan Tyre:
Now in the UK, there's not a lot of uggers and I have to kind of push people to ugh, then that's … No one in the UK would say that. I have lots of people who call me in the UK that say that. And what you'll hear is people chuckle or they'll say, “What did you just say?” And I'm like, “Ugh.” You got to lean in the GH. Just do it. Do your ugh. Do it.
Will Barron:
Ugh.
Dan Tyre:
Okay. It's a little too harsh, but this is the first time you did it in front of 700,000. That's awesome. It's ugh, kind of a funny ugh. It doesn't sound like you're expecting their call and they're like, “I wasn't.”
How to Address Resistance Even Before it Pops Up · [17:00]
Dan Tyre:
Now, you're going to address resistance. Now you're going to say, “Will, I saw that you run a great sales podcast. I listened to that episode, number 67, where you had sales leaders talking about the most difficult part of sales process, I saw that you have the number one rated podcast, and I work with inbound companies that want to double their podcast listeners in the next 12 months. Does that sound like you?” And what would you say if I said that?
Will Barron:
I'd say yes.
Dan Tyre:
Exactly. And then I'm going to stroke my chin, stroke your chin. Get that beard going. Stroke your chin and you say [crosstalk 00:17:37]
Will Barron:
This might sound weird in the microphone from rubbing this, Dan.
Dan Tyre:
Yeah, I know. Tell me-
Will Barron:
People might get weird feelings here in my rustle of the beard.
Dan Tyre:
Okay. This is the chin stroke question. If I don't have you stroke your chin, you'll forget it. But you have three connect call positions here. So here's the thing, you have your ideal customer profile. Then you research the company, just like we've demonstrated. You perfect your opening. “Will, this is Dan from HubSpot.” If you don't say that 1,000 times, I want the dog to walk out of the room. I want your significant other to say, “Really? Okay, we know it's Dan from HubSpot.” But I want it to sound like I really want to talk with you.
Dan Tyre:
And then you want to be human. If somebody sounds like they're having a tough day, I'm like, “Okay, Will, sounds like you're having a tough day.” And you're like, “Why are you calling me?” I'm like, “Will, do you want me to sing you a song? Do you want me to tell you a joke?” They're like, “No.” I'm like, “Ugh, doesn't sound like you're expecting my call.” And they're like, “I'm not.” And you're like, “Okay. I work with business leaders who are podcasts who are trying to extend their programme, does that sound like you?”
Dan Tyre:
And then you're going to say, “Yes.” If you say, “No,” I didn't do enough research. Because it's all online. I know everything about you, and we've never met before, 12 minutes before. And now, then I'm saying, “Okay. I also work with business leaders who have been practising inbound, who like to read business books and who believe inbound is a leadership principle. Does that sound like you?” And you're like, “Yeah, that sounds like me.” Stroke chin. “Tell me more about that.”
Dan Tyre:
Now you're starting to talk. Now I'm getting a feel for who you are. I'm listening, I'm reviewing. Then eight to 10 minutes in, after you're telling me all this kind of stuff, sometimes you'll say, “What do you want to know?” I'll say, “Everything. Give me the eight minute version. I want to understand.”
Dan Tyre:
Now I want. First of all, I got you to smile when I said, “Ugh.” Second of all, now you're talking, which is the hardest part. Third of all, halfway through the conversation, I'm going to say, “Hold on one second, Will. What I hear you say is.” And when I say, “Will, what I hear you say,” what am I doing?
Will Barron:
I hear you say you're acknowledging that you're listening.
“Active listening is the single key thing that prospects are looking for in a salesperson.” – Dan Tyre · [19:51]
Dan Tyre:
It's called active listening and it's the single key thing that prospects are looking for in a salesperson.
Will Barron:
It's a good job I answered that one then, otherwise it would look like I've just been zoning out for the past 15 minutes.
Dan Tyre:
Yeah, that's right. No, no, no. It's good a thing. You're paying attention. But I want to make sure these … Active listening is so important. It's why introverts and women tend to be a little bit better at the prospecting function because they actually listen. Guys, just talk about-
Will Barron:
Do you have, not you personally, is the data on that, I'd love to see if that's been studied.
Dan Tyre:
I have to dig. That's my own per personal experience. But everybody says, “You're a born salesperson.” I'm like, “No, that's not true.” It used to be true when sales was the land of misfit toys. If you couldn't code, you couldn't write, they're like, “Okay, maybe you can take somebody to lunch.” And that was what sales was in the 1980s.
“Salespeople have to figure out the way in which they present the information so that the empowered buyer understands that, number one, you know his or her problem. Number two, you're asking the right questions so that they think about the problem in a way that they might not have thought of.” – Dan Tyre · [20:50]
Dan Tyre:
Now, it's hyper-thoughtful, super intelligence, psychology, focus, and engaging with people. That's why it's so much fun. It's different all the time. And you have to figure out the way in which you present the information so that the empowered buyer understands that, number one, you know his problem, or her problem. Number two, you're asking the right questions so that they think about the problem in a way that they might not have thought of.
Dan Tyre:
Lots of times people cycle in and they're like, “This is what I need.” And you're like, “Okay, Will, have you thought of this, this and this?” And they're like, “Actually, no.” And then you're like, “Okay, so lots of people ask for this, but what they're really looking for is this.” That's the change. You're not telling them how much it costs, what colour comes in, can you carry it up a flight of stairs? What you're doing is explaining to them how they can redefine the problem. All right.
Dan Tyre:
So after eight minutes of them talking, you're like, “Okay, that's kind of interesting. It sounds like there's some business pain around this particular issue.” You've already proven, number one, that you're willing to talk with them. Number two, you've proven that you can have a short conversation where you can get them talking. Number three, you've been very overt in saying, “What I hear you say?” So you're honouring them.
Dan Tyre:
Now, that lasts from 12 to 15 minutes, which is hard for many salespeople. Because you'll go through, have three of these conversations a day and you won't have talked to anybody since early this morning and then this person wants to talk to you. But at 15 minutes, the best practise is to stop and say, “All right. Will, sounds like there's something to talk about. This was a little bit of an interruption call, so what I'd like to do is I'd like to reengage. What are you doing tomorrow?” And you'll like, “I got some openings.” I'm like, “Okay, are you a coffee person or a tea person?”
Dan Tyre:
What's the answer to that? Are you coffee or tea?
Will Barron:
Both, if that doesn't ruin it. I'm a coffee AM, tea PM.
Dan Tyre:
Okay. “So I want to strategically schedule time after your second cup of coffee.” So you're ready to go. You're like, “I have all the answers to my question.” And then I want to schedule either 25 minutes or 50 minutes to ask you some questions around this issue.
Dan Tyre:
A connect call is what we call it in the flywheel model, lasts for 15 minutes. It engages, it uses those connect call positioning statements. It's all about you. They go, “Why? Who are you again? Tyre from HubSpot?” I'm like, “Dan from HubSpot. Don't worry about that. All I want to make sure is that you know that I know about you, that I have helped you identify that this may be something that is worth spending a little bit of time on.”
Dan Tyre:
They may say, “No, not right now.” They may be in consider, they may be in just visibility mode. And I'm like, “Okay. I'd like to just drill down into a little more just to make sure that I understand if this is a good fit or not. We'll spend 25 minutes. I'll ask you a series of questions. You can ask me some questions and we'll determine if there's a reason for move forward.”
Dan Tyre:
That's called a discovery call. That's the goal of the connect call. And the discovery call, oh my goodness, in 2021, it's new close call. You ask the right questions on the discovery call and you will get that deal. They should look across the Zoom at you or the Skype at you and they should say, “Will, those are the right questions to ask. Who are you, once again? Oh my goodness.” And then you can proceed from there.
Dan Tyre:
Now I got one other point though, because in 2021, when people say that people don't pick up the phone, they're kind of right. And how many times do you have to call somebody to be professionally persistent?
Will Barron:
10, 20?
Dan Tyre:
Okay. The best practise is you're going to call somebody four times over 12 days. The first time I call you, there's only a 4% to 7% chance that you're going to pick up. Sometimes you see my 602 number and you're like, “Who? Who's 602? I wonder who that is?” Usually it'll go right to voicemail. Even in the UK, I leave a voicemail, but my voicemail is different because you're going to see a transcribed content on it on your iPhone. But I still leave a voicemail.
Dan Tyre:
And then I send an email and in the email, it's your name first, an ampersand, my name, my company, trying to connect. And it's, “Will, as per my voicemail.” And then just two lines. “I'm reaching out because I saw that you want to get more listeners to your podcast. I'm reaching out because I saw that you had that great post on LinkedIn. I'm reaching out because I'm connecting with business owners in Leads who are trying to get more growth. And I've included my Calendar link in my email, just set up 15 minutes and I'm going to show you how I can help. See how I can help.”
Dan Tyre:
I send it out. It's like, it used to be you had two paragraphs. Today if you have more than two sentences, you're not doing it right. Then you have the first time and the statistics say you're going to pretty much ignore that. Which the next thing you got to do is you wait two days and I call again. Now you see the 602 number, which not a lot of 602 people are calling you, but you're saying, “Oh wait a second. Wait, that seems a little familiar.”
Dan Tyre:
I leave a second voicemail. It's a little bit different, but it's all about you. It's not, “This is Dan calling to talk about technology or do you need a CRM?” It's like, “Oh my goodness. Will, thanks so much for mentioning him on that podcast. I saw that you are leaning into a warm calling and I wanted to see how I could help.” I send the second email. The second email says, “Will and Dan.” It says, “Second ping.”
Dan Tyre:
Do you know what a ping is?
Will Barron:
In this context, just second touch?
“The biggest transformation in prospecting, since the beginning of prospecting, is including video in your prospecting email.” – Dan Tyre · [26:50]
Dan Tyre:
Yeah. A second touch, second. A ping comes from sonar in a submarine. It's like ping, ping. Some people who are over 50 don't really understand what it is. But most people like your age demographic, they're like, “Yeah, he's trying to reach out again.” And then I say, “Will, as per my second call, I want to spend 15 minutes with you, see how I can get in touch.” And in that one, I include a video. And the biggest transformation in prospecting, since the beginning of prospecting, is including video in your prospecting email. And you can use HubSpot video. You can use video. You can use Loom. You can use Wistia, Soapbox.
Dan Tyre:
They're all free. You just load it in your browser and now you see me. You see my glass, you see my swanky urban background. And I'm going to put your website on my background. I'm going to be a little hole on the side. And I'm going to say, “Will, I came to your website. I was doing some research on business owners in Leads and I saw that it looks like you're trying to generate more business. I had some tips about ways that could help you get your website working a little harder without you having to. Just put 15 minutes on my Calendar and we'll engage. Then we'll see how I can help.”
Dan Tyre:
Now you go to that video, you watch the video, usually about 75% of the time. Some people say, “No one's clicking on my video.” It's usually because you don't have the prospect's website there. That plays to the lizard brain. Then you're focused on it's only a minute. No one wants to hear about anything for more than a minute. You can't drone on for something. It's like, get to the point, it's 2021. And the ask is just get on my Calendar. When the prospect books, amazing things happen.
Dan Tyre:
Do you like when prospects' books on your website?
Will Barron:
Dan, we are just completely inbound. We don't have any booking or anything.
Dan Tyre:
Okay, so I'm going to assume on the app, when people drop their content [crosstalk 00:28:22]
Will Barron:
I do literally almost all of our deals, mate, just over email. Most of our deals happen over email.
Dan Tyre:
I know, it's amazing. It's amazing because now you know I'm coming. Now you can research me. You're like, “Tyre, you're in Arizona. Isn't it 6:00 in the morning?” I'll say, “Yes, it is, very good.” Now we're establishing that commonality. Now we're leapfrogging, what you said is the most confusing and the hardest part of that connection. Because first of all, you're in control. Second of all, you set the appointment. Third of all, you're going to show up more often. Fourth of all, I've given you the ability to have that conversation.
Dan Tyre:
All right. So if you don't answer my second one with the video, I-
Will Barron:
One second, Dan. One second. Just for the audience. Sorry to interrupt you there. I will document all of this out. I'll put it into a big flow diagram and we'll host over at salesman.org/Dan. So because there'll be people now who are on a treadmill trying to listen to this going, “Free.” They've got an arm full of pen as they're trying to scribble and they're running. They're up to their chest at this point, I've got a hairy chest, Dan. I can't write on this, mate.
Dan Tyre:
Okay, that's a little overshare.
Will Barron:
So I'll document everything. I'll document everything.
Dan Tyre:
I got it, I got it, but that's [crosstalk 00:29:23]
Will Barron:
Salesman.org/Dan. Go on, mate, carry on.
Dan Tyre:
Say it again. Salesman.org/Dan. Okay, we knew this was going to be good because you and I have complimentary, you're the big brain and I'm the energy. And this is the hardest part. I got lots of stuff to talk about the classic sales process, but I want to help and I've trained this for many years at HubSpot. I train our partner programme. I have a lady by the name of Amber. She was so scared. And in 2021, the prospecting process, everybody's sitting at home, you're at your kitchen. There's a lot of negativity going on.
Dan Tyre:
Sometimes you talk to Mr. Grumpy. You don't talk to Mr. Grumpy because you're all inbound. But sometimes you're going to hit somebody who's going to be like, “Why are you calling me?” And that's when you use your skills, address resistance. Got lots of ways to address that. This lady Amber, she got so amped up when she called people, she'd only call people on a treadmill. And so she'd be, “Will, this is Amber. Will, I'm on a treadmill.”
Will Barron:
Stop it. [crosstalk 00:30:28] That is on the verge of sexual as you're doing that, Dan.
Dan Tyre:
Guys can't do it, women … And then people would say, “Why are you want to a treadmill?” She goes, “I get a little nervous when I call people, so it alleviates my nervous when I …” And people would just start laughing, be like, “All right, what do you want?” And she'd be like, “I'm calling pharmaceutical companies in London who have a stage two or stage three product that they're trying to manage through their website and need a little help. Does that sound like you?” And they're like, “Oh my goodness, who are you, Amber on the treadmill?” And it's just a very nice and human way of engaging.
“Statistically about 25% of the people, if you include a video in the second email, they are then going to respond.” – Dan Tyre · [31:08]
Dan Tyre:
All right, so if they don't answer your first two, which statistically about 25% of the people, if you include a video in the second one are then going to respond. You wait three days, because it usually goes over a weekend, and then you call a third time. And that third time you're going to reference something that you saw on Twitter, something, you listened to the podcast. It takes 10 seconds, people. If you call me and said, “Dan, I see you at HubSpot.” That's not good enough. If you say, “Dan, how did you get on the salesmen.org podcast?” I'm your friend forever. I can't control it. Now I'm like, “Okay, you did your research. You earned your 10 minutes. How can I be of service?”
Dan Tyre:
I leave the third, I say third ping in the subject, it's another [inaudible 00:31:47]. You know I've done my research. You know I want to talk to you. I've been professionally persistent. And then I wait two more days. This is the money call because you'll pick up usually on the fourth call because you've seen 602-432-7451 four times. You've seen the email three times. You've got four voicemails.
Dan Tyre:
So my voicemail there is like, “Will, this is my fourth voicemail. I'm pretty sure that you understand how to get ahold of me. You got four emails from me as well, two videos. Sounds like you're busy. Should I stay or should I go? If you want to know a little bit more about how I can help business owners in Leads grow their business over the next 18 months, just get on my Calendar. If it's not a good timing, just save this email. Just let me know. If you ever decide to grow better, just come back, get on my Calendar and I'm happy to help. My name is Dan from HubSpot. Thank you very much.”
Dan Tyre:
And for me, that connects at between, I don't know, 78% and 85%. Which people say, “That's not fair.” You're like, “I'm an e-celebrity.” And you're an executive at HubSpot. I'm like, “Okay, granted.” But if you follow those rules, you should connect between 25% and 40%. People who have never called before, if they use those techniques, especially leaning into video, you'll greatly accelerate the hardest part of the sales process. And it's like anything else, it's hard when you start because it's emotional and it leverages.
Dan Tyre:
People say, “They don't want to talk with me.” Which is not true. Because do you want somebody to call you and help you, Will?
“Until you've spoken with an individual, they have no idea who you are. They're not making judgements about you anyway. So, you're making these emotions on your side.” – Will Barron · [33:27]
Will Barron:
I do. And just to double-down on this point, until you've spoken with the individual, they have no idea who you are. They're not making judgements about you anyway. They just don't give a shit. They don't. They're just oblivious. You're making these emotions on your side.
Dan Tyre:
100%. But what I just taught you is to make it all about you, and I want it to be all about you because I have to be, it's the empowered buyer. I'm not talking to everybody. I'm talking to business owners in Leads that have a world-class podcast and want to double their listening audience in the next 12 months. And if you are nuanced enough, smart enough to do that, then you're going to win. Because I'm speaking directly to you. You're a segment of one, you're going to be like, “Oh my goodness, I got to call this guy back.” You won't call me back. You'll email me or you just get on my Calendar, anywhere from 75% to 82% of the time.
Dan Tyre:
And it's not just me. I just haven't had done it for a while. Have taught it to the folks at HubSpot, have taught it to partners at HubSpot, and now I'm bringing it to the world. The reason I got so excited is like, “Ooh.” I've travelled all through the UK. I've spoken in London dozens of times, Manchester, Chester, and UK audiences are a little bit different. UK humour is a little bit different, a little bit ironic, a little bit self-depreciating. I got to Google British humour, a little drier, yeah. Yeah. But it still plays. Unless you're an introvert, then my big energy is hugely annoying. Then I'm just going to back it down a little bit.
Why ‘No’ Often Times Means Not Now · [35:00]
Dan Tyre:
But with these techniques, we know that you're going to engage. You just have to do the work. And what we found is if you use these techniques, if people say no, they don't really mean no, they mean not now. Because virtually everybody in the UK wants to grow. And it's not so much like that in Italy. I don't know if you have a big Italy following. But sometimes when I talk to people in Italy, I'm like, “Do you want to grow?” They're like, “Not really.” That's the only place in the world that I found that they're not, like it's not a number one thing.
Dan Tyre:
But in the UK, they're like, “Yeah, I want to grow.” I'm like, “All right. What's your strategy?” And they're like, “Well, this is what we're going to do.” I'm like, “Okay, can you hit your goals? Keep doing what you're doing.” And they're like, “Maybe I'm not quite sure.” I'm like, “All right, let's just get on the Calendar for 15 minutes. Let's see how I might be able to help.”
“The new way of selling is helping, not pushing.” – Dan Tyre · [36:05]
Dan Tyre:
And with that ideal customer profile, with that outreach four times over 12 days, with including video, with being of service, with ensuring that if somebody isn't ready to go, you're like, “Okay, it's perfectly okay. At the time in which you decide you need to meet my services, just remember the guy without a lot of hair with the black glasses who sent you the video and then just ping me and I'm happy to pick it up when you're ready to go.” And that is part of the flywheel. The new way of selling is helping, not pushing, to everybody's benefit.
Will Barron:
I've got one thing that I want to ask you about and we'll wrap up here, because I'm conscious of time because we could … I want to know what the next call looks like. I want to learn more about the flywheel.
Dan Tyre:
Of course you do.
Will Barron:
We'll have you back on, Dan, to dive into all this in the future. But one thing, and I think this is really important, and I've got zero budget in our company in the grand scheme of things. But salespeople reach out to me and I connect with salespeople typically, in your words, when they've earned the conversation or they've earned the call. That first email, I just delete. I just don't care. I'm probably not going to read it, I'm busy. The second, third-
Dan Tyre:
Yeah. Of course you're going to. Of course. You're a damn fine human being, Will, and you're just like every other business owner. How many emails do you get a day?
Will Barron:
To the actual account, past the filter, not many. But the pre-filtered account, 100 odd emails a day. But when people work hard, I feel you like, ah, come on. We work with salespeople, train salespeople. Salespeople in the audience, I'll give them a shot. I'll get on the phone with them. I'll just give them something.
Why You Need to Purposefully Try to Earn the Right to Call a Prospect · [37:08]
Will Barron:
How important is it, Dan, to have that mindset of earning the conversation? As opposed to, I feel like a lot of salespeople make a few calls, try and use some weird manipulative tactics, do some old school selling. It doesn't work on the first or second, so they just give up. They almost feel entitled. Whereas the opposite end of the spectrum, the salespeople who purposefully try to earn a call, in my experience do way, way, way better. How important is that mindset shift to make that you're earning this?
Dan Tyre:
Of course. You're the empowered. Yeah, 100%. It's all of it. That's the leadership principle, The Inbound Organisation, the book that I wrote. And I also wrote the forward to a book called Inbound Selling by Brian Signorelli. My buddy Mark Roberge, she's the first vice president of sales at HubSpot, and now the entrepreneur-in-residence at Harvard Business School. And I wrote the forward and we talked about how it's completely different.
Dan Tyre:
What you want is somebody to help you and if I can convince you in four emails, in four phone calls that I can help you, it plays right to your heart. So selling is helping. And you don't sell technology, that's the big thing that HubSpot figured out in 2007. All we want to do is help you. We don't even care if you buy stuff or not. All I want to do is help you. Why? Because if I help you, you're going to have the exact opposite effect that that Mini car dealership had. Tell that story, take 30 seconds and tell that story about that-
Will Barron:
The audience have heard the story many times, but I'll give another analogy. You walk into a shop in the UK, be it some time of … Say you're buying a TV. You walk to a shop, there's someone at the door. I used to be super spotty. A spotty teenager and they go, “Hey, can I help?” And you go, “Nope.” You don't even think about it. It just comes from your subconscious brain, your reptilian brain. Nope. And the reality is they might be able to help you. They could save 10 minutes, 20 minutes of you faffing around, but you've just totally got rid of them. And that's what we're trying to avoid if I'm on the right tracks here.
Dan Tyre:
Yeah. Exactly. I'm going to give you the exact opposite.
Will Barron:
We're trying to not be that person that gives that instinctive response of salesperson.
Dan Tyre:
Will, I'm going to say, “No, no, no. Will, I know you, number one, I only deal with business owners in Leads. Number two, I know what you want, which is growth, because I've worked in your segment for a while. Even if you're brand new, you can figure out you want with three customer reviews and talking to your senior management. Number three, I'm at your service.”
Always be Closing is Dead; It’s Time for Always Be Helping · [39:25]
Dan Tyre:
I tell people that. I wrote this famous blog article that was called Always be Closing is Dead: How to Always be Helping. There's another great blog article I wrote in HubSpot Blog called Warm Calling Tips that we have. They changed the name to Always be Closing is Dead, Always be Helping to a New Sales Mantra. But in 2014, I went back into the funnel to test certain criteria, and if I was even a little bit pushy, people would never call me back. They'd ghost me. They'd be like, “I'm not talking to that guy.”
Dan Tyre:
If I called them and said, “Will, I'm at your service.” They're like, “Excuse me.” I'm like, “I want to help.” And they're like, “Help with what?” I'm like, “It depends. What do you need help with? Usually it's around growth, usually it's around podcast owners in the UK who are trying to grow their listening audience. Does that sound like you?” And they'd be like, “Yes.” I'm like, “All right, tell me about that.” And then they just go off, sometimes for 15 minutes, then it's completely different.
Dan Tyre:
And guess what? If you and I met in a pub, that's exactly what would happen. I'd be making fun of your beard and the fact that you didn't know who your university mascot was. It's a tiger by the way, remember that. And that you, different things that we saw and things like that. As soon as you introduce a phone, then it gets all weird. But it doesn't have to. It's like that human kind of approach and what I just described is a great way of getting your humanity across in 20 seconds. And if you get Mr. Grumpy, you're like, “Oh my goodness.”
Dan Tyre:
I get hung up on about 1.5% of the time. I just get the guy, he had to take his dog to the vet. His kid got kicked out of school for smoking weed, something like that. And he's just in a bad mood and he hangs up on me. I send him a video. I'm like, “Oh, Will, I'm so sorry. I must have caught you a bad. I'm at your service. I ran this report about your ability to generate more leads inbound. I wanted to hand it to you. And if there's ever anything I could do.”
Dan Tyre:
People will actually call me on that one and they'll be like, “Who are you? Are you a Martian? Oh my goodness. I hung up on you and you sent me a video.” I'm like, “Yeah, that's kind of the way we roll.”
Dan Tyre:
Everybody has those kind of things. And in a global pandemic or emerging for a global pandemic, that humanity is really unique and people naturally gravitate to it. And then you build up your flywheel, then more and more people like, “No. It's the exact opposite of your car example.” Then people are like, “No, no, no, go talk to Tyre.” And that happens to me now eight times a day. After being at HubSpot for 14 years, people are like, “No, you got to talk to. This guy's amazing. All he wants to do is help, help, help.” You get that reputation, it's all downhill from there.
Sales Should Be Fun, If You’re Doing it Right · [42:10]
Will Barron:
Final question. This is massively loaded in that we all know what the answer is going to be from you. But I think this is be valuable for the audience. Should sales be, even if we're sat at our kitchen table, listening to this, making calls, should we be suited, corporate, boring, stagnant? Or should sales, if done right, be fun?
Dan Tyre:
It's unbelievably fun. The reason I would went into sales is number one, to have fun, number one. Number two, to learn stuff. Number three, to make money. I've changed my mantra in 2014 to, “Doing the most good for the universe.”
Dan Tyre:
The reason I'm still at HubSpot 14 years in is HubSpot makes this big impact. We teach this all the time. You go to HubSpot Academy, you can learn inbound sales. There's a plug right there. It's free. Two, three hours. It's a class. Professor Kyle Jepson will teach you what I just talk about in regard to engagement and outbound calling. And we give that away for free. Why? Because if you're doing it right, there's more good process in the world. If you're doing it wrong, people will never speak to you again. And it's still in the transformation process.
Dan Tyre:
Brian Halligan, our CEO, says, “We're still in the second inning.” Which for the UK means we're still in the first 10 minutes of the football match.
Will Barron:
First half, yeah.
Dan Tyre:
And it goes on from there. But if you're trying to do it the old way, if trying to sell technology services anyway, you're not going to. If you got a big heart, if you focus, if you are trying to help people, oh my goodness. It's a whole different ballgame. And then people are so nice, they're like, “Tyre.” They send me chocolate towers and knitted sweaters and all that and they're like, “Oh my goodness.” That's unusual behaviour. They're like, “You were so nice. You were thoughtful. You decided to help me. You weren't pushy at all. When I ghosted you for six months, you were like, ‘Eh, whatever.'”
Dan Tyre:
Now you have to run a little bigger funnel. You have to be available. You have to make sure you're providing the right information at the right time. But it's the right philosophy, a management philosophy to help not sell.
Will Barron:
If a customer sent me or a prospect sent me a knitted sweatshirt, Dan, I don't know how I'd feel about that. I might feel slightly uncomfortable.
Dan Tyre:
Yeah, I know. I got 25 of them. I know, I know. It's amazing. First of all, it's fun. Second of all, this is the new sales process called inbound selling or the flywheel. We have to do another session on that. This means that your customers are more important than your sales team. And I know that's very controversial on the salesman.org, but it's true. And there's ways that salespeople can be insightful, thoughtful to make sure that works. And the bottom line is you want to lead with helping. And if you do that, it will resonate with a large group of folks.
Parting Thoughts · [45:10]
Will Barron:
For sure. We've covered the marketing flywheel before. I've had a conversation with your VP of marketing off the record about this, which is translating some content for the show. So I think we're all on board with this. It's not controversial at all, Dan. And with that, mate, let's wrap up there. Tell us a little bit about the book and then where we can find more about you as well.
Dan Tyre:
So when I started as the first salesperson for HubSpot, I didn't even do my bio. You're a good interview, Will, you skipped right over that. And for me, as the first salesperson, first sales manager and first sales director at HubSpot, it was different with the outbound reach. And inbound marketing resonated very, very well. But as a salesperson, I love those inbound leads. Then it moved over to inbound marketing, inbound sales, or what we called inbound growth. Then I'm like, “No, no, no, wait a second.” What we just talked about, spend the last half hour talking about the leadership principles of helping not selling.
Dan Tyre:
And inbound organisation is all about treating people like human beings, which is important in the outbound process. Number two, helping not selling. Number three, looking at the data. Number four, solving for the customer. Number five, ensuring that you're delivering the right information to the right time. And number six, being persistent in a way in which it doesn't feel like you're being overbearing. And those are foundations … I was speaking publicly about the inbound organisation and this guy, Todd Hockenberry, is like, “I talk about this all the time. Let's write a book.” And I'm like, “Hmm, okay.” I thought about for eight seconds. And I don't know, have you ever written a book, Will?
Will Barron:
No, have I heck.
Dan Tyre:
Okay. It's hard. It takes hundreds of hours. I thought writing a book was going to be like talking. It's nothing like talking, you got to be … But the good news is I have the best co-author in the history of books. And you can go to www.inboundorganization.com. You can download all this free stuff that we do because we believe in the inbound process. You can buy the book in bulk. You can see all of the great stuff. And it's been super fun to help spread everything that I've learned at HubSpot all over the world, 120 countries, to more and more sales, marketing, service, support business leaders all over the world.
Will Barron:
And where can we find out more about you specifically, Dan? And maybe some of these blog posts?
Dan Tyre:
DanTyre.com. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Connect with me on LinkedIn. I'm an open book. Twitter @DanTyre, Instagram if you want to see pictures of my food, @DanTyre1. LinkedIn, easy to find me. DanTyre.com is my website. And I'm at people's service. To the extent of my bandwidth, I'm always happy to help accelerate the sales process or support that people need. HubSpot offers great sales products. Our CRM is free. HubSpot has got the number one CRM for scaling businesses, which is super fun, and I'm happy to be as associated with the company for the last 14 years.
Will Barron:
Amazing stuff. Well, the audience have heard a pre-roll from HubSpot, an advert probably about 10 minutes go from HubSpot. I'm clearly bought into HubSpot as well, so hopefully that speaks volumes with yourself, Dan. And with that, we'll link to everything we talked about in this episode, or I will visualise and make everything as visual as possible. We'll maybe put out some kind of download or something together that documents it all and we'll host that over at salesman.org/Dan.
Will Barron:
And with, mate, I genuinely appreciate your energy that you bring. The insight of all this, I might have to go for a freaking lie down afterwards to recover from the bombardment.
Dan Tyre:
Yeah, that's what my wife said. I've been sheltered at home for 14 months with my beautiful wife. She's like, “Okay.”
Will Barron:
The poor woman. The poor woman.
Dan Tyre:
“You move to a tent in the backyard.” She goes, “All you do is yell at your computer for 12 hours a day.” Which is pretty much true.
Will Barron:
Well, look, this genuinely comes across, it comes across as genuine. So I appreciate that, mate. And with that, I want to thank you again for joining us on The Salesman Podcast.
The Ultimate Guide for Monitoring Sales — From a Sales Professional’s Perspective
Dec 13, 2021
The famous SharkTank entrepreneur, Daymond John, explained the importance of sales monitoring perfectly in this analogy:
“Imagine your ship is in a battle, and you have no command center giving visibility on whether or not your ship has been hit until 30 days later, nor visibility on whether enemies are behind or in front of you. What do you think will happen to your shit? You sink.”
Pretty much sums it up, doesn't it?
In the dynamic world of sales, you need an effective sales process for tracking sales performance. This will provide you with crucial insights that will make you more effective at selling, helping you save time and effort, earn revenue, and, more importantly, boost your sales career.
Implementing a sales monitoring system can seem like hard work. But the good news is, it doesn't always have to be.
Why Is Sales Monitoring Important?
It doesn't matter whether you're a B2B or B2C sales professional—or what size or industry your business is—you need sales monitoring to measure your progress and optimize performance to ensure better outcomes.
Moreover, you won't have to second guess every decision when you know the numbers. You can make smart, data-based decisions, which will make you a more efficient and savvy salesperson.
Additionally, you don't have to be a sales manager, leading a sales team to take advantage of a sales monitoring system.
Monitoring sales performance is also important for individual sales reps too. When you own your key performance indicators, you'll become a sales managers best friend.
Monitoring Individual Sales Performance Metrics and KPIs
To hit your ultimate revenue goal, you must know what sales metrics your organization's sales management uses to track sales throughout the sales funnel.
For this, you'll have to use past sales performance data and work backward up the funnel from the organization's projected revenue goal to set your goals. A good place to start is considering the following questions:
Based on your average deal size and win rate, how many opportunities can you open?
How many discovery calls can you book to open that many opportunities?
How much outreach do you need to do to secure that many discovery calls?
Notice the pattern?
Besides revenue, you should also be looking at:
Win rate: Considering the number of deals and the size of deals you've cracked, are you on track to hit your revenue goal?
Pipeline creation: Are you creating enough opportunities up the sales funnel to meet your sales quota?
Average deal value: Will the size of your deals need you to close more or fewer opportunities than you already have in your sales pipeline?
Average deal size: Can you improve your performance by increasing the velocity?
Customer acquisition cost (CAC): Is the amount of time and resources you're investing into each deal worth the results you're achieving?
Forecasting consistency: How reliable are your pipeline projections? Are you successfully closing deals within the timeframe you've established for yourself?
Measuring indicators of activity level can also come in handy. This includes:
Speed to lead: How quickly are you following up with leads after making contact?
Outreach attempts for contact: Are you nurturing your leads effectively?
Connect to the ratio: How many outreach attempts does it take to get a prospect to respond? How effective is your messaging?
With the sales metrics covered, you can next focus on the actual monitoring of sales.
5 Easy Steps to Monitor Your Sales Progress
We've discussed the different metrics and KPIs. But before you start measuring them, you'll need to take a few extra steps to ensure accurate results. So here's a step-by-step rundown of monitoring sales effectively.
Step 1: Establish Your Sales Goals
The first step to setting up a good sales monitoring system is to set clearly defined goals and expectations based on your sales quotas.
This will help you discover obstacles and understand how to make contact with your prospects more effectively. You'll also get a better sense of direction, which will make you more invested in working to achieve them. Here are some examples of common high-quality sales goals for inspiration:
Spend one hour every day prospecting to find good-fit leads
Reduce customer acquisition costs by 10% by month-end
Earn $2,000 per week in commission
Increase win rates by 7% in Q1
Bring in 9% more revenue every two months
Step 2: Create a Plan to Measure Both Short-Term and Long-Term Goals
When using sales monitoring systems, you want to keep a dual focus on short-term task completion and long-term performance.
While tracking your daily or weekly sales goals will keep you up-to-date with your sales performance, the inevitable highs and lows of sales may leave you demotivated or anxious. It's during these challenging times that long-term goals can come in handy. Long-term objectives provide a more realistic measure of success, which is why short-term failures don't seem like a dead-end anymore.
At the same time, if you find you're achieving your daily and weekly goals but are still nowhere close to long-term success, you'll have to change your approach. First, review whether your micro-goals are actually helping with your end picture and make adjustments as needed.
Step 3: Use Sales Tracking Software to Visualize Your Sales Pipeline
Closing deals shouldn't be your only goal. You should also aim to fill every stage of your pipeline, which involves tracking all your sales prospecting efforts and qualifying and nurturing leads.
You have to understand how to fill your sales pipeline—and fill it correctly. While you can always turn to your superiors for advice, you can also use sales monitoring tools and software like a customer relationship management (CRM) to measure metrics and track your sales progress at a single glance.
For instance, the best CRMs have customizable sales dashboard that give you tailored visibility of your sales pipeline, how much revenue you're likey to generate, your sales cycle length and they allow you to track other metrics that are relevant to you. As such, you can simplify your sales cycle and focus your efforts on converting leads that matter.
Step 4: Make Your Workload More Focused
Sales professionals often develop an overly complicated system for tracking and reporting on their individual performances.
Don't be one of them.
Focus on streamlining your workload by making it more focused. Again, you can achieve this by using tools that support customizable sales reporting features. This will allow you to quickly visualize relevant data that can help you assess your overall performance.
You can keep track of the number of deals added to your sales funnel, the average age of your deals, and the number of deals and stage-to-stage conversion for each one of them at any given period. Even better if you can apply custom filters to reports to see the exact data you need at any given time.
You want a fair picture of how your performance compares against the established goals and expectations. Now that you know where there is the scope of improvement, brainstorm ways to troubleshoot solutions and meet these gaps. Don't be afraid to get in touch with your sales manager if you need more training, support, or additional resources.
After all, great teams don't hold back from one another.
Algorithms VS Human Decisions: Should Buyers And Sellers Be Replaced? | Salesman Podcast
Dec 10, 2021
On this episode of the Salesman Podcast Brian Christian explains the power of algorithms and the guys dive into the question if they're so powerful, can they replace all human decision making in B2B buying process.
You'll learn:
Coming soon.
Sponsored by:
Free SalesCode assessment
Learn your strengths and weaknesses in an instant. Taken by over 10,000+ of your competitors. Don't get left behind.
Take the free assessment
Featured on this episode:
Host - Will Barron
Founder of Salesman.org
Guest - Brian Christian
Author of Algorithms to Live By
Sales Targeting: Supercharge Your Sales Funnels and Boost Close Rates
Dec 10, 2021
Another day, another cold email.
As a sales professional, you understand cold emailing is part and parcel of the job. But not getting even a single response can feel disheartening.
You want results and are ready to change your current strategy.
Allow us to suggest a third possibility: targeted selling.
Not many sales professionals realize that all their business can come from the same group of customers. You can use this approach to make sure you're targeting the right people—people with a genuine interest in what you have to offer.
What Is Sales Targeting?
Sales targeting is the process of identifying prospects more likely to buy your product or service, followed by building a sales process that appeals to them.
You determine the ideal fit for your offering and then create a pitch based on their interests and priorities. You also identify people unlikely to buy your product, which lets you dedicate your attention to only those sales targets who matter the most to your business.
5 Steps To Create an Effective Sales Targeting Strategy
Targeted sales involve more than applying tried-and-tested sales targeting techniques. You need to build a solid strategy and clearly understand your ideal customer persona.
Sounds too much? Don't worry; here's a detailed step-by-step run down.
Step 1: Map Your Sales Territory
When it comes to creating awareness and narrowing down forecasts, less is more.
You need customers, even if smaller in number, that are likely to find your product or service valuable. A good starting point is to determine the benefit through the receiver's eyes. You can also use the 80-20 rule, where 80% of output will come from the top 20% of input.
When mapping out your territory, consider the following questions:
Who are the top 20% of your targets that are responsible for 80% of your sales?
What 20% of your actions drive 80% of results?
Which prospects or customers will find value in what you have to offer?
Which of these prospects are willing and able to make a change?
Step 2: Categorize Your Prospects Into Different Segments
One of the key components of effective sales targeting is “bucketing your business. ”
Bucking your business is the process of categorizing your customers into various segments (“buckets”). You can create buckets based on:
the types of products your target audience buys
when they last purchased from your business
their business size or industry,
or any other grouping that makes sense to you.
This will help you understand where you're getting your business from and from whom, as well as uncover new opportunities or threats. You can also create benchmarks for what's working and what isn't and determine who you should be targeting to drive revenue.
Think of it as creating a better-diversified stock portfolio for your business.
But the question is how to bucket your business successfully? Here's how:
Prepare a list of all your customers.
Analyze their buying patterns and then group them into different segments based on what percent of your business comes from each.
Decide which group of customers provide consistent and sustainable revenue. Call this group your “why “bucket as you're likely already aligned on value.
Identify customers who purchase from your business frequently but are still inconsistent. Call them the “how “bucket as they are filled with potential.
The remaining customers are a part of your “what “bucket. These are customers who have already tried and ordered a few times from your business but are either early in development or don't trust your brand enough.
Make sure to do this regularly if you want to master targeted selling.
Step 3: Brainstorm Your Sales Targeting Strategy
Removing emotion from your selling decisions is one of the more challenging aspects of targeted selling. You can unknowingly prioritize a sales target over another, which may hamper your sales targeting results.
To make sure you don't end up committing this mistake, you can follow author Tyler Menke's methodology:
Add your customer base to a spreadsheet (Sheet 1) and then stack-rank them based on the amount of revenue they generate, starting from the highest to lowest.
On a separate worksheet (Sheet 2), rank your customers based on perceived value revenue potential. Be sure to select sales targets and prospects from each of your buckets. You want a combination of customers with sizable potential, low-risk targets, and additional prospects that can be quick hits.
Take a third sheet (Sheet 3) and create a list of variables you believe will increase or decrease the customer's ability to take action or implement change. You'll have to assign an equally weighted value for each of these factors.
Hold on; things are about to get technical here.
Suppose your factors are “budget,” “internal influence,” and “willingness.” “For each of these variables, assign a value from 1 to 10 for each customer (1 being most likely to and 10 meaning least likely to). Then run a sum function and stack-rank your third sheet from lowest value to highest.
Next, write a sales target formula so that X = Sheet 1 rank times .25 + Sheet 2 rank times .25 + Sheet 3 rank times .5.
Here's how it should look:
X = Rank1(.25) + Rank2(.25) + Rank3(.5)
The resulting list will help you rank your customers from top to bottom based on three factors: current revenue, potential, and knowledge.
Using the formula, you have successfully reduced making decisions emotionally.
Step 4: Create Your Action Plan
At this stage, you'll create your pre-sales call action plan. Remember how we mentioned you have to perceive your product's value from the receiver's eyes? You'll follow the same ideology here.
Ask your prospects insightful questions that can help you understand where and what the value is. Some of these questions can be as follows:
Why is having the right partner or vendor vital to you?
Why have you made this business segment your priority?
Why did you choose your current vendor or product?
Would you consider switching vendors in the future? Why?
Step 5: Go All In
Identifying your prospects is only half the battle. You should also know when and how to chase them to close the deal. When you're certain, you have a big deal in your sight, prepare for it adequately and go all in to secure a win.
Once you've successfully landed the deal, think about how you can use it to sell to other customers in the same industry. After all, nothing works better to close a deal than a testimonial or a case study from a reputable insider.
When you're sure the customer is happy with your product or service, track every data point you can that made the deal successful. Then, build a case study around it, making sure it resonates with your customer success.
While sales targeting improves your chances of closing a deal, it doesn't guarantee success. So it would help if you also were prepared for failures. Don't lose hope—instead, treat them as learning opportunities.
Sales Targeting Best Practices
Are you wondering how to practice sales targeting effectively? Here are our top tips to get started on the right track.
A) Understand Your Ideal Customer Persona
You should know how to choose the correct targets for your business.
Determine the demographics and personal quantities of customers that typically buy from your business or have expressed interest. For starters, you can consider factors like:
Age
Gender
Education
Location
Family status (whether they're married, have kids)
Occupation
Income
Another tactic to learn more about your prospective target demographics is by looking at your top competitors. What kind of competitors do businesses similar to yours usually target? What are the target demographics of your closest competitors?
Of course, you don't want to copy these qualities exactly in your sales targeting strategy, but these insights will help you better understand the most appropriate targets based on your industry.
B) Establish a Consistent Lead Flow
You need to set up a consistent flow of leads for your sales targeting strategy to work. This involves implementing strategies that can bring the right person to you. Below, we've compiled a list of a few strategies that can work:
Create highly targeted LinkedIn content. Create targeted content that appeals to your target audience and can help solve their pain points. Even better if you can leverage your product or service's benefits here.
Nurture your leads via cold email. Build a drip-email campaign to nurture your leads. This can also help attract people in the early stages of the sales cycle, pushing them further into the next stages.
C) Regularly Measure Results and Improve Strategies
Another crucial aspect of effective sales targeting is taking out time to measure, analyze, and change as needed.
When implementing your targeting strategy, you will find there will always be room for improvement. That's why you have to be well aware of your weaknesses and eliminate them to ensure better outcomes.
Use sales metrics to analyze your overall performance. This will also help you figure out strategies to ensure better results. Then based on the new information you gather, refine your technique and adapt.
The Top 10 Deal Makers And Deal Breakers? Sacking 900 People Over Zoom?
Dec 08, 2021
On this week in sales we’ll be looking at; research showing what buyers top 10 deal makers and deal breakers are, Ford partnering with Salesforce to make a uber CRM, laying 900 people off with a Zoom call and much more!
You'll learn:
Sales news:
Korn Ferry research – Top 10 deal makers and deal breakers
Top deal maker – “Understood my business needs”
Top deal breaker – “Did not understand me or my business”
Ford Motor drives into CRM services for America's SMBs with Salesforce in the passenger seat
With the automotive industry looking to diversify its sources of revenue, Ford Motor Co has teamed up with Salesforce to launch VIIZR, a CRM and field service tool targeted at meeting the needs of small business owners in the US.
VIIZR is a custom solution built on Salesforce Field Service that Ford says will “help tradespeople schedule field appointments, send invoices and manage customer relationships from one integrated, cloud-based platform”.
It’s been developed by Ford Pro, the dedicated commercial arm division of Ford Motor that was set up earlier this year with a brief to focus on vehicles, technology and services for the commercial vehicle sector and increase fleet productivity, improve uptime and lower operating costs through connected services and work-ready internal combustion and battery electric vehicles.
The opt-out rate for mobile app tracking will decline from 85 percent now to 60 percent by 2023 as consumers gain experience with untargeted ads, Gartner predicted in a recent report.
By 2023, the volume of ad impressions that TV and streaming media channels deliver during what are traditionally considered working hours will grow by 60 percent. This comes as working from home is expected to be the norm for many employees well into 2022. As a result, periods that were once considered prime time by advertisers have flattened and video consumption, among other things, has intensified during what were once traditional working hours of 9 a.m. to 5 p.m.
By 2025, one in five B2B companies will use artificial intelligence/machine learning to proactively slow down customers' journeys by connecting customers with sales reps during digital commerce interactions.
By 2026, chief marketing officers will dedicate 30 percent of their influencer and celebrity budgets to virtual influencers.
Connect the Dots collects $15M Series A to help companies graph connections
A former Salesforce executive wants to make it easier to find those connections, and he’s building Connect the Dots, a startup that aims to build a personalized, professional relationship graph.
The way it works is you sign up and it scans any email accounts you have, looking for connections at different companies. It collects and correlates this data. When you look at a particular company, you can see who you know who knows someone there, with the strength of your connection measured by three colored dots. If they’re all green, it’s a solid connection and you can request an email introduction.
Drew Sechrist, who was employee 36 at Salesforce in 1999, believes that email is the key connector. “We’ve got these emails that have been piling up forever representing relationships. And we just didn’t have any way to pull [them together] and get value out of them. But technology was getting to the point with machine learning and some other advanced techniques [that] we could extract value from that data and then build a graph of relationships to see who actually knows who,”
After 33 years, well-known industry trainer Adam Walker has announced that he will not be running any more training courses.
More than 150,000 people have attended Walker’s training courses since 1987, but he has decided to suspend them indefinitely owed in part to Covid-19.
He continued: “The first obviously is the pandemic. Covid has changed the sales and management training market for ever. For several months, it was illegal to run a training course. It is now possible to run one but demand for traditional training is only a fraction of what it was before. The majority of training is now delivered online but I simply do not believe that it is possible to achieve the same results from a virtual course. I simply do not want to run courses that are less effective than the ones that I ran before, and so I have decided reluctantly to stop running training courses altogether.”
A source who had attended the alleged gatherings on 18 December in No 10 told us there'd been “several dozen” people in attendance, with food, drink and even party games on offer, with the event, however it was described, going on past midnight.
It was only the next day, the 19 December, that Boris Johnson tightened Covid rules still further, “cancelling Christmas”.
This is all during a period where the rest of the UK was under lockdown.
Increase Your Visibility: How to Get Prospects Attention On LinkedIn
Dec 06, 2021
In today’s episode of the Social Selling Show, Daniel and Will share tips on how to increase visibility on LinkedIn as well as pros and cons of riding trends on LinkedIn.
You'll learn:
Sponsored by:
Free SalesCode assessment
Learn your strengths and weaknesses in an instant. Taken by over 10,000+ of your competitors. Don't get left behind.
Take the free assessment
Featured on this episode:
Host - Will Barron
Founder of Salesman.org
Guest - Daniel Disney
The King of Social Selling
Welcome to the Social Selling Show with myself, Will Barron, founder of Salesman.org, and the king, the freaking… I'm going to bash the table right now. I'm going to boom the microphone and make all weird noises for everyone listening on audio, the king of social selling, Daniel Disney, how's it going?
Daniel Disney:
It is going very well. Appreciate the table booming introduction. I'm excited for today's episode, Will. For anyone who's watching the video of this you'll see, I am now in day two of my brand new office. So quite an exciting time, although a lot of work now to do, to build this up.
Will Barron:
I'm interested, we'll get into the topic, which is how to become more visible on LinkedIn in a second, but for anyone who's watching this who is creating content and might be interested, what are your plans? Are you just going to replicate the studio that you built at home here, or do you have bigger, smaller, different plans moving forward?
Daniel Disney:
Do you know what, Will? Honestly, it took so much effort and thinking, and building in the home office setup, which has got four bookshelves and a lot of other stuff. I'm not going to replicate that, but I'm going to use this as an opportunity to create real branded video space. So I'm looking at some wall art and just make it suitable really good audio and video equipment to take the video game to the next level. So yeah, quite a lot of homework to do in preparation. But it's exciting. It's an exciting step. And actually tying this in and looping straight into today's topic when we talk about being more visible on LinkedIn, yesterday I posted a picture of me holding the keys, standing in the doorway to the new office and the post did above average engagement.
Daniel Disney:
And I was sort of aware of the principle, but those momentous occasions are great opportunities to become more visible. Those moments and it could be the birth of a child, it could be a child's birthday, it could be your birthday, it could be starting a new job. Those big occasions make great sort of extra visibility posts on LinkedIn. So I guess kicking this episode off and using this as an example, look for those moments where you think, actually this is something a bit different and they may happen once, twice, three times a year, but those are great opportunities to get that extra visibility.
Why Posting Major Life Events on LinkedIn Drives a Tonne of Engagement · [02:10]
Will Barron:
Do you think that is because it is a moment and people are sharing in that moment with you? Or is it because you're actually being real and you're not just, not you personally, but people are just so used to the day in business content and re sharing blog posts from your company blog and then they see something that is out of that world and something that is a… Someone pregnant, baby, marriage, whatever it is, new, amazing office space that it's so real that that grabs attention in the platform. Is it because it's just, people are buying into you, I guess it's the same question people buying into or is it just because it is different?
Daniel Disney:
It's both and I think there's a key thing. You can't have momentous occasions every single day. So people have that big occasion, they get lots of engagement and they try and repeat the same thing every single day and it's not going to happen and that's fine. You'll have a handful of these across a year. It is partly the occasion. People want to join in and celebrate and follow that journey. But that ties into the fact that yes, because it is personal insights, people connect with it. Again, on the flip side, you can't just share that type of content or otherwise people won't know what you do. Won't build trust and credibility with you and it won't generate any sales. So it's good to have it in a balanced… A balance where you can't just do that. But the occasion just adds, I guess, the amplification.
Striking a Balance Between Creating Content That Drives Leads and Content That Nudges the LinkedIn Algorithm to Your Direction · [03:33]
Will Barron:
Sure. So let's go back to basics here for a second. Clearly with social selling to drive leads, to get attention for our product or service to make some money. We're not doing this… We're not David Dobrik, we're not getting paid on ad views on YouTube. It doesn't matter if we get… I'd rather have 10 people consume a piece of content and get five prospects, than a million and nobody gives a shit about it, right? So with that said, is there a balance between content that perhaps nudges the algorithm in our direction that we should create versus contents that drives leads, which is perhaps the bread and butter? Is there a ratio between these two opposing forces that we need to both drive the LinkedIn algorithm, drive attention our way, but also pull leads from the system as well.
Daniel Disney:
So I guess we've talked about this in a previous session, the 80/20 split is what I have always preached. In terms of 80% should be value giving and 20% can be advertising. Now, if we take that 80% and break it into 50 and 30, 30% can be more personal based stuff. So about you, the selfies, the snapshots into your world, where then 50% should be more still value giving industry relevant, you sharing your industry stories, experience, tips, knowledge, et cetera, but it is done in a professional way, but it is good to have that 20, 30% where it is you and your stuff and it could be you at work, it could be you outside of work. It's letting people get to know you. That digital relationship is super valuable and it can accelerate the sales process significantly.
“That digital relationship is super valuable and it can accelerate the sales process significantly because those first conversations you have with them, in their head, it's not the first conversation. They feel like they know you already and that's a very powerful thing for sales.” – Daniel Disney · [04:57]
Daniel Disney:
Because those first conversations you have with them, in their head, it's not the first conversation. They feel like they know you already and that's a very powerful thing for sales. But it's getting that balance right/ build the personal side up, make sure you're earning the credibility and then you still have that 20% to do… Promote and advertise what you sell. So that you are able to drive those conversions.
Will Barron:
Sure. Okay. So I want to get into consistency. I think that's an easy one to get into and I've found, you'll be proud of me Daniel, I've started using a software product called Meet Edgar, and it allows you to just schedule content. Which has then forced me, because I see this empty calendar in the software, to go, “Right. I need to actually create some content for LinkedIn.” And everywhere else as well. The same content goes out on our business Facebook profile on Instagram, few other places as well. But having that empty calendar in front of me has forced me to create some content and just posting whatever it is. It's not even the best stuff we've ever produced, every day has led to almost every day the posts are doing between 1,000 and 10,000 views a post. And it's not that I've reinvented the wheel. It's not that I've come up with some amazing concept.
How Consistently Creating Content Improves Visibility on LinkedIn · [06:30]
Will Barron:
I've not done anything. In fact, the content isn't even that good compared to what we do when we spend more time on it. But just that constant tap, tap, tap, tap, tap every day, these 1,000, 2,000, 1,000, 3,000 view posts have made a massive difference to the amount of leads that we're generating from LinkedIn. Now I know you told me to do this 27 years ago and it's the fundamentals. We've talked about it on the show, but how important is not even being the best, just being consistent if we want to become more visible on LinkedIn?
“You could go to a networking event every single week for a year. If you stand in the corner and don't say anything, you're not going to hear any conversations, any opportunities. But if you go in and you talk to people, guess what? Even if what you're talking about is low value, low quality, they'll remember you, they will get to know you. And at some point they will understand what it is you do and that's how you convert.” – Daniel Disney · [06:46]
Daniel Disney:
It's just crucial Will, let's be completely honest. You could go to a networking event every single week for a year. If you stand in the corner and don't say anything, you're not going to hear any conversations, any opportunities. But if you go in and you talk to people, guess what? Even if what you're talking about is low value, low quality, they'll remember you, they will get to know you. And at some point they will understand what it is you do and that's how you convert. Consistency is super important and that's a good point to make. You don't have to go out there sharing viral content every day to generate leads.
Daniel Disney:
You can go in and you could average 10 to 30 likes on a post and maybe a few hundred impressions. You can do that consistently and generate opportunities. So don't be disheartened by fear of, “Oh, I'm not getting 1,000, 10,000 views.” Or “My posts aren't going viral.” It doesn't mean you won't create opportunities. A lot of the real sales people out there on the front line, their averages are lower, but their consistency creates conversion.
Why You Need to Be Aware of the LinkedIn Algorithm and Analyse What’s Working and What’s Not Working · [08:01]
Will Barron:
For sure. I love this analogy. Because if you think about it, all the amazing conversations you've ever had in your life with the people that you care the most about that you got the most rapport with. Well, they probably came six months to five years, 20 years into the relationship. If you think back to the first conversations you had with them, you probably can't even remember them because they were that boring. So that's a perfect analogy. Is there anything else we need to do other than let people into our real world? Celebrate our wins? So when I don't do enough of, and I've been told off on the Salesman Podcast a bunch of times by a bunch of people for not celebrate my wins. Celebrate the wins, be real, be consistent. What else do we need to do to become more visible?
Daniel Disney:
Have, and this is a tricky one, but be aware of the algorithm and look at what is working at any given point. So right now I'm sure you've seen this as well, Will.
Will Barron:
If you say polls, I'm sick of seeing polls. The front page… I did a poll the other day. It was just absolute trash, just out of interest. And it was like 500 people had filled in the poll and the question, which was just nonsense. I don't understand why these people have got so much time to be doing these polls in the first place, Daniel. But yeah, sorry I cut you off then because I knew where you were going. But literally the whole first page, first five, six are just these crappy polls on LinkedIn. It's rubbish. Obviously this is an over correction and LinkedIn will pull them back, but sorry mate. I'll let you finish.
Daniel Disney:
No, that was a good outburst. And there are a lot of people Will that feel just like you. What I will say no matter what the algorithm pushes, people will do it and other people will dislike the fact that there's so much of it on there. I get you're presented with a choice. You can sit and complain about it or use it to your advantage as you did because the algorithm is pushing it and it is an opportunity even if it lasts for a week, four weeks, eight weeks for you to gain extra visibility, generate extra followers, audience growth, and even potential customers.
Daniel Disney:
So riding that algorithm wave whilst it may annoy a percentage of people clearly… I mean, some of the people… I did a poll the other day on the daily sales and I think it was 7,000 votes. That's a lot of people that are putting time into voting on, obviously you're right. There are some really bad polls. Like what did you have for breakfast today is offering no benefit to anyone. But there are some polls that offer insights where you think, “Well, actually I'm…” I read polls and I think, “I want to know what everyone's voting for. I'm curious to know what the answer is.”
Explaining How LinkedIn Polls Work and Why They are So Effective · [10:05]
Will Barron:
Explain that phenomenon within the system that you've got to vote to see the results, right? So it's in inherently viral in that nature.
Daniel Disney:
It's very well created. So yes, to see the results, you have to vote, which as an author or creator of a poll, you want to create polls where people are going to want to know. In your industry and ideally your target customer, you're going to want them to think, I want to know what everyone else is thinking or doing or saying around that subject area, because for them to see it, they have to vote. More that vote, the more people that are then going to want to see and gets that spiral effect. So it was very cleverly designed by LinkedIn. You're absolutely right Will, the algorithm will probably push it for a little bit longer and then it will balance out and get the same engagement rate that any other post will.
Daniel Disney:
But we've had spikes like that consistently through LinkedIn history and as LinkedIn creator, if you're looking for visibility, look at what the algorithm's pushing. If you see text posts suddenly get huge numbers again, jump on that. If you see LinkedIn articles starting to get big numbers, start doing that. If there's a new feature that comes out, whether it's video live, whatever it may be, look at what people in your network are doing, what's getting the most traction because if the algorithm's pushing it, it's your opportunity to jump on that wave and get that extra visibility.
How Salespeople Can Take Advantage of Trends on LinkedIn · [11:32]
Will Barron:
How do we, without having a page like yours, which I think is 750,000 people on it right now, which is insane and congratulations. How do we see this, for us mere plebs at the bottom of LinkedIn food chain, right? We have a couple of thousand followers or a couple of hundred followers. Is it very, literally you just look at the LinkedIn feed and see the trends that are at the top of it, what LinkedIn are proactively pushing to you? Is it as simple as that?
Daniel Disney:
It is. My insights don't come from the daily sales. A lot of it'll come from to just connect with people in your industry, connect with influencers in your industry and people that are active and just scrolling through your feed. Five minutes, 10 minutes a day on a daily basis, you start to pick up the trends. You start to see which posts are getting the most traction, whether it's topics, whether it's structure. I mean, vulnerability is quite a popular topic at the moment. That's generating a lot of engagement for people opening up a little bit more. So there's things like that where again, there's nothing black and white. LinkedIn don't tell you what they're going to push, but you can just see through the results and it's the best way to learn. So just read through the feed and make sure your network has people that are ultimately going to show you those results.
News Hacking Strategies on LinkedIn · [12:37]
Will Barron:
Are you familiar Daniel, with the term news hacking?
Daniel Disney:
No.
Will Barron:
So you you'll know this concept because I'm sure you're doing it and I think it's describing in a grander and wider sense what we're talking about on LinkedIn. So news hacking is this process and loads of companies have been built on the back of this of, for example, I feel like over the past few months, perhaps since the pandemic, mental health in sales and business has been a huge topic. So a traditional newspaper and magazine would run a bunch of stories on that and ride the wave of mental health in whatever it is.
Will Barron:
I feel like what you need to do the same, we need to news hack on LinkedIn, see what the topics are, see what the features are, see what LinkedIn's pushing feature wise and then just… I don't know how to describe this without being slightly derogatory of just hammer it into the ground or just do whatever the topic is over and over and over until we didn't have that juice anymore. So I said like the Huffington Post is built on news hacking. All these tech startup and news organisations from the Buzzfeed was news hacking, so I'm guessing we need to do something similar on LinkedIn, right?
Daniel Disney:
I'm with you will, and I think whilst we talk about riding the wave and capitalising on the opportunity, you've also got to be very weary of overdoing it. So yes, LinkedIn polls a great right now. Would I say, go and do a poll every single day? Absolutely not because you can easily alienate your audience and push them away. So you've still got to find that right balance. You just want to make sure you do capitalise on it. So at the moment I'm sharing maybe one maximum two polls a week. I wouldn't want to push further than that, but I wouldn't want to ignore it either because I would miss out on an opportunity.
When Creating Polls, Should You Be Creating Viral Polls or Just Focus on Creating Value for Your Audience? · [14:10]
Will Barron:
How far do you lean into, and I guess the real question or the smarter question is what is the value of having eyeballs, right? How far do you lean into, for example, a poll? So let me formulate this more intelligently. Is the value in creating a poll that, you know will go viral or you hope that will go viral that will get 10,000 random people to view profile is the value in that, in that the LinkedIn algorithm goes, “Hey, this gets tonnes of attention. We'll start sharing more of the content more generally.” Or is it always worth creating content for a specific audience? And LinkedIn goes, “Hey, this is the audience that this person's after. So even if I get less views, it'll be more targeted.” If that makes sense.
Daniel Disney:
You do always want to make sure it's relevant. So again, doing really generic, bland polls, even though they might generate extra engagement, it's going to dilute your personal brand and LinkedIn will ultimately end up connecting you with the wrong type of people. So you want to make sure it's always relevant. And there are two benefits to a LinkedIn poll. Yes, there's the visibility, there's the views, but you can convert within it. So I've been selling tickets to master classes. I've been driving registrations to webinars just by promoting something in the text above it. Again, not every single time. Sometimes it's good just for the exposure other times, you can sell and promote through it as well. The beauty being they're getting value from the post and you're still able to then direct them and say, “Have you checked out the Salesman Podcast? Here's a link.” You get lots of click throughs and then the engagement pushes it even further. So I would definitely recommend making sure it's always targeted to your ideal audience or otherwise it's really hard to justify it.
How to Convert as Much of Your Acquired Visibility Into Paying Customers · [16:24]
Will Barron:
Sure. I totally agree. Unless you're building a media company, which essentially you and I are building an attention driving machine for sponsorships, for other stuff and there's value in that for individuals. Maybe that gets you your next job. Maybe it gives you a side hustle, but we focus on just generating revenue for the organisation that we're selling on behalf, makes total sense. Is there anything else Daniel, that we need to include in our mission to become more visible on LinkedIn?
Daniel Disney:
No, I guess the last closing thought really on the visibility piece is we've about lots of different things you can do to be visible and visibility is good, but you want to make sure you convert as much of that visibility. So be smart in how you share your content. Whether it's a poll, whether it's a photo, whether it's a big occasion, think about the subtle things you can include. So when I did this post yesterday, taking a selfie in the office, talking about how it was exciting day for me to have my first office. Within that post I talked about what I'm going to do here, which includes LinkedIn training and keynote speaking and so I'm subtly talking and essentially promoting what I do, but it's in a… It's wrapped in a post that's marked as a big occasion and, and done in a way that's going to be valuable to the audience.
Daniel Disney:
Do the same with polls, do the same with any form of content. I've seen a lot of influencers follow this route, use these opportunities for visibility. But if you want to convert that visibility, you need to make sure they know and understand and see on a consistent basis, what it is you do. That's how you convert the backend. Visibility is hollow if you're not going to get something on the outside of it.
Why There Has to Be a Point in Everything You Post on LinkedIn · [17:33]
Will Barron:
So is it fair to say that there has to be a point to the post?
Daniel Disney:
Yeah. And your audience are going to want that as well. Again, just following your journey and getting to know you and like you and being excited by random stuff is great. But, and that's fine if again, like you say, Will, if you're building a media company or if you just want the ego stroke, but chances are most salespeople listening will hopefully want some leads and customers off the back end of it. So there has to be consistency in what you do, your industry, your product, your service, your mission, all those things need to be wrapped in that consistent piece. So yes, push for the visibility, share the personal stuff, make sure you try and find ways to sew it in. I mean, Will here's another example. I took a selfie of me in my garden cooking a barbecue, nice insight outside of work post. But the text said after a busy week of LinkedIn training, nice to cook my family some barbecue. So it's there. It's there wrapped in, not noticeable, not in your face, but it's there. So we always look at those little ways because it makes a huge difference.
Is There Value in Driving Content From Outside LinkedIn to LinkedIn? · [18:35]
Will Barron:
I've got one final question for you, Daniel and this is probably a topic for a whole podcast so we don't need to go too in depth into this, right? But as you say this, a lot of salespeople will spending a lot of time on LinkedIn, but what happens if we have an audience, if we have influence if we've got other social media accounts outside the LinkedIn bubble. Is the value, and I can give you an example of YouTube here in a second, but is the value in driving traffic from outside of the LinkedIn platform to the content on LinkedIn, does LinkedIn reward you for doing that? And I'll just give a wider context of if you take someone who's not viewing YouTube, is not on YouTube, right now dot com, and you take them onto YouTube and they start watching your video then another video and another video.
Will Barron:
YouTube massively, the algorithm promotes your content on the back of that. Because you're taking someone who's not doing anything to do with YouTube and then throwing a load of adverts in front of them over time, right? So YouTube, it goes out of their way to reward content creators who are embedding videos on their own websites or whatever it is or linking via websites to specific YouTube videos. Does LinkedIn have any system in place that rewards us for taking traffic attention, whatever it is from even the real world. Having, I know people don't really have business cards, but having LinkedIn on your business card or stuff like this. Does LinkedIn reward us for pushing traffic to the platform?
Daniel Disney:
So they don't at the moment Will and I think we should maybe make the next episode about this because there are a few little insights I can share that have happened quite recently within LinkedIn. Changes that will probably work towards that type of process. So no, right now there is no massive reward system built into the algorithm or into the analytics there to push it but they're heading that way and it is something we should definitely explore in a bit more depth because the creator community is something that's probably the next big wave on LinkedIn.
Parting Thoughts · [20:28]
Will Barron:
Cool. I'm physically writing this down because we'll record it at some in the future. We'll tease it with that. So with that anything else to wrap up on Daniel? Or is that, is that the end of this one?
Daniel Disney:
No, go out there. Share great content, open up your personal stories, try and gain that extra visibility. Just always make sure it's relevant.
Will Barron:
Amazing stuff that was Daniel Disney, the king of social selling, my name is Will Barron founder of Salesman.org and that was the Social Selling Show and I will speak with you again next week.
How To Nurture B2B Buyers On Social Media
Dec 04, 2021
In this week’s episode of the Social Selling Show, Will and Daniel talk about nurturing buyers through social selling and LinkedIn after they've made a purchase.
You'll learn:
Sponsored by:
Free SalesCode assessment
Learn your strengths and weaknesses in an instant. Taken by over 10,000+ of your competitors. Don't get left behind.
Take the free assessment
Featured on this episode:
Host - Will Barron
Founder of Salesman.org
Guest - Daniel Disney
The King of Social Selling
This episode of the show is brought to you from the Salesman.org HubSpot Studio. Welcome to the Social Selling Show, myself, Will Barron, founder of Salesman.org, and the King of Social Selling, Daniel Disney. How's it going, mate?
Daniel Disney:
It is going really well, Will, excited to be back today. And yeah, we've got quite a good interesting topic today. Another one of those unique ones that you don't see people talking about it on LinkedIn, it's not something you see a lot of people writing about, but it's a really important part of the process that I think a lot of people forget or ignore.
Why Do We Need to Nurture Buyers After the First Sale? · [00:45]
Will Barron:
It's the least sexy thing we're ever going to talk about on the show that might make you the most money. And on today's episode we're going to talk about how you can nurture your buyers via social selling, via social media, after they've made a purchase. And we'll start with this, I think we're going to be relatively aligned on this question, Daniel, but why do we need to nurture our buyers after the first sale has taken place?
Daniel Disney:
Well, hopefully, Will, the people watching and listening to this are long term invested in their customers and not just looking for that quick sale. Which we know, I mean unfortunately, a lot of the bad stereotypes of salespeople are the ones that are trying to get anyone and everyone to buy from them, and they're only focused on that individual sale. Hopefully the people watching and listening to this are looking beyond that, which is why it's important, because one customer in itself can create so many more opportunities, whether it's buying again in a year's time, whether it's buying additional items, whether it's connecting you with other departments to sell additional items, and then you've got referrals. So yeah, an individual customer has a tonne of opportunity, as long as you look past them as just an individual customer.
Will Barron:
So you've done all the hard work, you've done all the stressful work, you've done all the research, you've done that initial building of trust, why would you just let all that go to S and just not leverage it on the backend to do more deals? And we're going to see this in most marketplaces, as everyone moves to a subscription model. I can't think of an industry that isn't moving towards a subscription model versus an upfront capital payment. As all that shifts, everyone's commissions are going to shift towards, get so much in month one, it's going to sound almost like a multi-level marketing scheme at some point. You get so much in month one, so much in month six, then so much in 18 months. And so it's going to make total sense, eventually, for everyone to adopt this idea of selling once, and then either upselling via price increases, which happen naturally and organically, upselling and cross-selling different products within the space.
Will Barron:
And then, something that I don't think we've done a show on, but we should definitely cover, getting referrals as well. So a buyer buys from you, you give them value, hopefully the amount of value that you promised, you've exchanged that for the cash, the capital that they've shared with you. You nurture them a little bit longer, and then if you've done a good job, they're going to be happy to promote you internally, as you said, Daniel, within other departments, within other offices perhaps, if it's a large enough organisation, but then also within their little peer groups as well. So we'll definitely do a show on referrals in the not to distant future.
The Similarities and Differences Between Sales Nurturing Before and After a Sale · [03:15]
Will Barron:
So that's the why we should do this, and hopefully people are sold on this idea, and you should be sold on it because tough shit, you're going to have to do this as everyone moves to this subscription model. But how do we do it? Is it the same for process? Is nurturing from contact to close the same as nurturing from close to next close? Or do we need a different strategy?
Daniel Disney:
They're similar, Will, but they are different, you're going through a different process when you're taking someone from prospecting through to close, and then it is a slightly different process, but they involve a lot of the same activities. We've covered this in a lot of the episodes, the whole process of giving value through your content, building your personal brand. And what's amazing about LinkedIn and Social Selling is you do that beyond the sale, and we go away from, what I'm sure you and I both remember from our sales experiences, maybe once every three, six, 12 months, phoning up your customers, “Hey, Will, how's it going? How's the product? How's everything? Great. Do you want to buy anything else? No. All right. I'll give you another call in three months, six months, 12 months,” whatever it may be.
“When you're sharing content of value, when you're interacting in their content, you're creating a conversation on a much more regular basis. So when you do decide to have deeper conversations, it's not out of the blue, it's not after an extended period of time, there's been things happening in between that, and that helps elevate it and sometimes create even more opportunities.” -Daniel Disney · [04:13]
Daniel Disney:
And you flip that round to almost, potentially, daily interaction. When you're sharing content of value, when you're interacting in their content, you're creating a conversation on a much more regular basis. So when you do decide to have more deeper conversations, it's not out of the blue, it's not after an extended period of time, there's been things happening in between that, and that helps elevate it and sometimes create even more opportunities.
Why Your Content Needs to Resonate with Your Target Audience · [04:56]
Will Barron:
So we've never touched on this before, and I've never pondered on it too much because all our social efforts at Salesman.org, we only have one product, we don't have a follow-on product, that's a flaw in our business model. But most companies, especially if they're hiring sales teams, and hiring larger teams, will have multiple products that go over the cycle of a customer journey. How do we prioritise our content on the daily that we're posting? Should it be 100% new customers? Should it be new customers, customer success stories, and then upselling opportunities like 33/33/33? How do we schedule our content out when we know that via LinkedIn, let's say we're a year or two into the social selling process, so we've got lots of customers who have purchased from us already within our ecosystem, let's make that assumption. What should the split be between the content? Or do we need to even go that in depth into it?
Daniel Disney:
The only answer to that question, Will, is going to be, it depends on what your priorities are, what your targets are. So if you an SDR and your priority is purely new customers, new prospects, then your focus should be on content that's going to generate that. But if you're an AE and you're looking after accounts, whilst also hopefully prospecting for new ones, then you need to determine that split. But you're absolutely right, that is an awareness piece people should be thinking about. Depending on what your targets are, make sure your content reflects that. So if it is maybe a 50/50, or a 30/30/30 split, then make sure that is reflected in your content. You have content going out designed to generate new business, you have content going out designed to nurture and give value to your existing customers, and then you have content going out to maybe expand or upsell or cross sell into new products as well. So yeah, it purely is dependent on what your targets are.
Will Barron:
We don't need to go so in depth. I can't remember the chap's name, it's going to come to me, I interviewed him on Salesman podcast a little while back. And he's done tonnes and tonnes, his company has done tonnes of research, on the upselling process. He's going to, if he ever watches this, he'll slap me over the head when he sees me, on the back of it, because we went super into depth of this upselling process. And I'll give the analogy, and I'll come back to the company and his name in a second, if not, I'll leave it in the show notes. But what he described was, we've got to be careful when upselling, because when you get someone through the sales process, they've gone through probably quite a bit of pain. The pain levels are up here, because the problem they have, they've probably gone through maybe even more pain to get the problem solved on the promise that the pain levels are going to drop dramatically after the sales process.
Will Barron:
So now we've got to be careful, because if we say, “Well, hey, you've been through this process. If you go through a little bit more pain, we can give you this.” Then they go, “Well, you're just bringing me pain, over and over and over. You're not really solving things.” This is where we get into these internet scam, get rich quick schemes, where you go, “Well, I'll pay you 50 quid for this,” and I get onto a webinar. “And then I've got to pay 200 quid for this, and then I've got to pay five grand to get to a live event.” And eventually I'm going to get, or Scientology, and a whole bunch of different religions all kind of follow on the same premise here, you get past one barrier, and there's multiple to go through.
Will Barron:
And he talked about this idea of the buyer, once they've made a purchase, they've got this big weight of, “We don't want to change,” sat on top of them again. And so we've got to be careful because as soon as we lift that weight of, “I don't want to change,” our competitors can go in and they go, “Well, okay, the game's up here. We can move around. We can reinvestigate the original deal, and see if the competitors of the products have changed, the market has moved, and we can perhaps get a better deal than we did originally.”
Sales Stories: How to Use Storytelling to Your Advantage · [08:20]
Will Barron:
So we talked about this idea, this big weight being set on top of the buyer and you got to be careful of when you lift it. So with all that said, Daniel, what kind of content should we be creating where we're not telling the buyer that change is easy? What we're going to do essentially, I guess is, tell the buyer that change with us, now you've invested with us so far is easy, but change to goes to someone else, a competitor, that's going to be even more painful and you don't even want to investigate that. You want to just keep going down our own sales process, our own sales funnel. I know I've just thrown a lot at you there, but is there any content that we can create to upsell, at scale, I guess, via content marketing and via social selling?
Daniel Disney:
There is, and the key to it comes to storytelling, which is the skill salespeople tend to have, or should be investing in. And there's lots of storytelling sales courses out there separate to LinkedIn and Social Selling that you would do over the phone or via email. With LinkedIn, it's bringing storytelling and mixing it with creativity to find ways to share the things you do, to share some of those principles around the dangers or risks of going to a competitor without doing it directly. So it's finding ways to creating engaging content, or share stories, to help your customers see what you do and understand how simple it can be, how easy it can be, the benefits, the ROIs, et cetera, without directly telling them.
Daniel Disney:
And in terms of how you do that, there's just so many different ways. It could be through connecting it to a TV show, or a film that's come out. And finding a way, I mean, I saw someone do this with the Floyd Mayweather, Logan Paul fight, here are lessons relevant to the industry, connected to that fight. Totally separate subject, but what you do is you connect to people that probably watched that fight or had an interest in it, and then whilst they're reading it, they're learning about these things that you do in a kind of subliminal, but not aggressive subliminal way.
Will Barron:
Sure. There's a great book on that very topic of taking the news and turning it into content, called news hacking. It's super old, it was written in the 90's I think, but that's a great resource on that front. And I'll ask you in a second of any resources or structures to build stories, but one thing that I find salespeople who are slightly missing the mark on social tend to do, is that they make themselves the hero as opposed to the customer the hero in their stories.
Daniel’s Recommended Resources on How to Craft Better Sales Stories · [11:00]
Will Barron:
Which makes sense because we're all egocentric, we're all focusing on ourselves, it seems like a good idea to say, “Hey, I went this account, I did this, and I got their revenue up by 200%,” or whatever it was. “I cut costs, I saved them this pain, this litigation, this stress.” Whereas what the buyer wants to see is, people who were in their marketplace, their peers, you went in with a guide, but the actual individuals within the account, in the account itself, was the hero. So other than that, which is super high level, probably didn't help people that much as a story structure, have you read any books? Have you read any guides on building stories that you think would be useful for the audience?
Daniel Disney:
Similar to you, Will, I am terrible with names, so I can't remember. I think it's Mick Adam wrote a book about storytelling specifically for sales. It's a great book. He puts out a lot of great content, but what I liked about it is it was storytelling, focused on sales, which is so applicable to LinkedIn. All it encourages you to do is to tap in and understand how to tell good stories, doesn't matter where, which format you do that in. It's not designed for LinkedIn directly, but it's so transferable, so that's probably one of my favourites. The other one I'll mention, it's not a book about storytelling, but it's a book called, The Extremely Successful Salesman's Club, by Chris Murray. And simply because it is a beautiful story about sales, so reading it helps you understand how you can wrap something that perhaps wouldn't be in a story in a story.
Will Barron:
For sure. I'll link to some of the books in the show notes as well, that kind of go along these lines. You probably need to read one or two of them, or even better, is a better solution for this to follow yourself, Daniel, and then just copy your stories with a different context and different heroes? Should we model success so as opposed to go deep into the trenches and try and reinvent it, or create it from other people's structures?
Daniel Disney:
As much as I'm fully happy for people to follow what I do, what I would also recommend, on top of that, is follow key people in your industry. There will be people in your space, selling your products or services, or similar ones, and have a look at what they're doing, because they're going to be doing it a lot more relevant to your customers.
The Benefits of Constantly Nurturing Long-term Buyer Relationships · [12:38]
Will Barron:
Sure. Okay. Is there anything, I feel this is quite of a short episode, Daniel. Is there anything we need to add on this? Because I feel this is a short episode, we've been to the point, but it's still, I don't think we've dropped the hammer just how like important this is for the audience.
“The value you give your prospects and customers on a long term basis determines the success of that long term relationship.” – Daniel Disney · [13:03]
Daniel Disney:
I think one of the key points we haven't really touched upon, but is really important to focus on, is value. And that word is thrown around a lot of sales and social selling, but value is important. The value you give your prospects and customers on a long term basis determines the success of that long term relationship. So we can dig a little bit now into what value means, but that has to be a core focus of everything you do. So from the moment they sign on the dotted line, make sure you're connected on LinkedIn with them in the first place, then make sure you are sharing content that's going to be valuable to them. We talked about the various split, either way, make sure whatever content you share, they're going to get some value from. Maybe that's an insight into you and your journeys, they get to feel like they're following your process. Whether it's a story, insight, knowledge, whether you're getting experts in that are going to benefit them, all these things, that's giving value.
Daniel Disney:
When you do that on a regular basis, then match that with engaging in their content. If they're sharing content, like and comment on every other post, don't be too stalker-y and do every single post, but like and comment on it. It's going to make them feel good. And it's not only maintaining, but building and strengthening that relationship, so giving value through your content and engagement is a real big part of nurturing those long term relationships.
Will Barron:
Okay. So let's dive into the topic of value, because this is a topic in its own right. For someone who's just bought, the data suggests that the biggest thing, the most value you can give to them at that moment, is to reduce any buyer remorse. Especially within a large B2B account where perhaps one person has made the final decision on the back of multiple other people, nobody wants to look like a complete idiot if it all falls apart, so you really need to emphasise next steps. You're going to do this directly as opposed to social, but we'll come on to social a second. You want to emphasise next steps, make sure that everyone is on board with the process, and you want to report back as soon as you can, data on success, even if it's just, “Hey, the software is now set up, your users are in the account,” whatever it is. You want to report back success as quick as possible to reduce this window in this moment of potential buyer's remorse.
Will Barron:
And this goes back to this analogy of, you've got this big rock and you want to keep it on top of your customer, and I guess the rock at this point is a big rock value that you've delivered, and as soon as you start to lift it up, because you want to upsell them, you want to do a price increase, you want to do whatever, there's the opportunity for them to go to a competitor. So you want to increase the rock that's on top of them to keep them held in place, and make them satisfied with what they've bought.
Adding Value and Dealing with Buyer’s Remorse Directly and Indirectly Within 30 Days of Purchasing · [15:58]
Will Barron:
So with that said, how can we do that with social media and our contact in social? It seems like one opportunity is to post customer success stories, and almost have like once or twice a month, a seven day success story of someone goes from buy to success. And that obviously has to be relevant, it has to be a real testimonial case story, that's probably the hardest bit, to uncover those testimonials and get that written down and documented. But it seems like that is a starting point. Is there any other way, or a better question perhaps is, what else do buyers want in that window of purchase to 30 days? What value do they want that we can provide them, at scale, over social media?
Daniel Disney:
I guess there's two types of value, direct and indirect. The indirect, is, as you say, Will, is the content, it's the sharing customer success. And again, don't forget there's other additional bits of value you can deliver indirectly. So it could be, maybe once a week, you interview an expert and they're going to be able to watch it, read it, consume it and gain insights they can go and use. That's value.
Daniel Disney:
If you are working in sales, you get a sales author on, or you send them to sales leaders, you get a sales author on who's sharing some of their top tips. As a customer, I'm getting additional value to the products or service you've sold me, so that's great, that's indirect value. And again, that whole engagement interaction on LinkedIn pieces, indirect value that you give.
Daniel Disney:
If we look at the direct value, don't forget LinkedIn is a communication platform as well. So if you want to give them updates, or check up, you don't just have a phone, you don't just have an email. Why not ping them a video message on LinkedIn? Why not ping them an audio message? Or a written message? There are all these additional ways you can use it from a direct communication perspective to deliver value. It could be a video message, “Hey, we just want to let you know, we've got all your customers logged into the system now. Here are going to be the next steps.” Quick 30 second, 60 second video that they might consume, which they're going to get value from because it's interactive, but it's still that direct communication.
Will Barron:
I think we can get… We've gone from a short episode to a seven hour one now. I think we can get even more practical with this, if you have an account sign up and you've got a good relationship with them, you can probably ask them once a week, “Hey, what's the biggest problem?” Or once every three days, “What's the biggest problem you have right now? What's the biggest problem you have right now?” As perhaps the decision maker signs the contracts, there was this issue with the contract, so was this problem, there was this, document it. Then seven days later, our team, they're not so motivated to get on the product. We know that when we get them on there, they're going to do great, document that. 14 days later, our team are using the product, the end users, we're starting to see some benefits and now we're starting to get some motivation, but we found this, this and this.
Will Barron:
And we're not talking about product issues that would go to a product manager to get engineers to fix. What we're looking for is where we can create micro bits of content that might not be appropriate for you to ring up every three days and pester someone, but you could easily ping them a message on LinkedIn and say, “Hey, at this point, seven days after people sign up, people typically have one or two of these issues. Here's a quick video that solves these issues for you.”
Will Barron:
And it might be something that you don't want to clutter someone's inbox with, and you don't want it to be an automated marketing like message, we've all been through them, we have to click through the guide, and go through all this nonsense, when really we just want to get into the product itself. We can personalise it. We can do it from the competitive advantages that sales people have, in which case it is personalised and customised to an individual. And especially if we've just sold to them, we've built that relationship, we perhaps got some more context that a marketing team doesn't have.
The Advantages of Maintaining Relevant Communication with Your Customer Throughout the Duration of the Relationship · [19:01]
Will Barron:
I feel like that framework, of just even a message once every three weeks until we see that first bit of results. In which case we want to formally document that, an email so that the buyer can then share that internally, so they look great in front of their colleagues, that we make them look like the hero. But informally, if we just ask a few of our customers, as they're going through this journey, we can perhaps collect data that gives us a reason to reach out, as opposed to, “Hey, I just thinking of you,” and just time sucking calls and emails and texts like that. I feel like if we do this once or twice, we've probably got a really good framework to reach out over social over the next 30/60/90 days.
Daniel Disney:
Really do, I mean, it's genius, Will, but again, it's understanding some people are either more likely to respond, or prefer to get communication via things like a video or an audio message. As you say, some people don't have time to answer your calls, some people's inboxes are absolutely jammed, and they're going to miss those emails that you send them. But actually that little voice note that comes through, or that video message that comes through on LinkedIn, might capture their attention, and it's that whole principle of actually communicating with them in the way that they prefer to be communicated with. And I guess the whole moral of this episode is, it's deeper parts of LinkedIn and Social Selling that a lot of sales teams, salespeople, don't think about. They kind of think, “I can only use LinkedIn for prospecting, so that's all I'm going to use it for.” And there are so many more ways you can use it outside of different parts of the sales process, and it's just realising it's more the than a simple tool.
Buyer-Seller Communication Modes and Platforms Should be Based on Buyer Preferences · [20:33]
Will Barron:
Well, I've seen this, well, I don't want to plug it, but I've seen this with our training product at Salesman.org. We've got a community in there, there's tonnes of people chatting, going back and forth every day. Regularly, I'll get people message me on LinkedIn, because they know that I'm crappy at replying on email, it's common knowledge of email me, I'll probably get back to you in a month. But they drop me a message on LinkedIn, and as soon as I recognise their name, as a customer of mine, a part of the community, I'll respond immediately on LinkedIn. And there's perhaps questions that they don't want to ask in the community, but they want to ask me personally. And maybe they just like LinkedIn as opposed to our platform, because they're logged in it all day, they don't want to log into another piece of software. So you're right, we've got to flex our communication platforms for where our customers want to communicate. And that in itself, even if it's the same communication that we're doing, that's an extra layer of value that we can offer these people as well.
Daniel Disney:
100%, Will, 100%, and that is it, going back to the whole value bit. It's mirroring what your customers want, whether it's in the content, whether it's in the way you communicate, and LinkedIn creates all these opportunities. So as soon as you've got that customer, LinkedIn doesn't stop, there are so many ways you can use it to just communicate, beyond the phone and email. You can give value through the content you shared by engaging in their content, and all these things are going to help nurture, grow and make these relationships stronger, longer lasting. And LinkedIn's continually growing, so more and more people are using it, for more and more hours per day, so it's becoming a big part of not just prospecting, but beyond the sale as well.
Will Barron:
For sure. Okay. Well, we'll wrap things up with that. That is Daniel Disney, King of Social Selling. My name is Will Barron, I'm the founder over at Salesman.org. And with that, we'll speak with you next week on the Social Selling Show.
Gong unveiling all the products? Guided selling? B2B buyers having cold feet?
Dec 03, 2021
On this week in sales we’ll be looking at; Gong unveiling all the products, guided selling, B2B buyers having cold feet and much more!
You'll learn:
Sales news:
Gong Unveils Centralized Platform for Revenue Teams
Company launches the Gong Reality Platform™ including new products and ecosystem integrations to drive productivity and effectiveness for revenue professionals
Gong today previewed new products and ecosystem integrations that solidify its status as the platform for revenue teams. The company will introduce new products in 2022 including Gong Assist™ for increased productivity through automated task management and Reality-Based Forecasting for more streamlined forecasting. Gong also introduced Gong Collective™ for more robust insights based on data from other critical revenue systems.
These moves come as the Gong Reality Platform™ – which captures and analyzes customer interactions and makes recommendations based on those interactions – continues to improve the performance of customer-facing teams.
Category Leader Klue Raises $62M to Accelerate its Competitive Enablement Platform
Klue, the AI-powered competitive enablement platform, today announced a U.S. $62 million Series B investment.
Companies are being disrupted faster and competition is increasing across every category. Yet today, many companies rely on a slow, inefficient, and inaccurate process of collecting and delivering market insights.
Klue shapes how enterprise leaders think about competitive enablement, helping collect and curate intelligence from multiple sources (external and internal to the organization) and presenting organized, actionable insights that sales, product, strategy and marketing teams use to win business against their competition.
B2B firms are getting cold feet on buying decisions
Business-to-business (B2B) organizations are getting cold feet when it comes to buying decisions as a result of the pandemic, new data suggests.
According to a report from sales enablement platform Showpad, 46 percent of B2B buyers have paused their buying decisions since March last year, while 43 percent deprioritized them.
“In 2020 the shift towards remote selling was a huge upheaval for many B2B sellers and their organizations. Teams had to pivot immediately to a completely new type of buyer and implement new sales approaches which rely on the use of digital technologies,” said Dustin Deno, Senior Vice President of Global Sales at Showpad.
“This new buyer profile has persisted throughout 2021, with buyers increasingly intolerant of cold outreach and requiring relevant, comprehensive information fast.”
How to improve sales effectiveness with guided selling
Over the last four years, more than half (51%) of top-performing companies have either turned to or plan to use Artificial Intelligence (AI) powered guided selling by 2025, according to Gartner.
Gartner says: “AI functionality has permanently transformed the form and function of guided selling capabilities. B2B sales organizations should help sellers improve sales execution by adding AI-based guided selling to their sales technology stack”.
Those who adopt this solution are able to spend 50% more of their time in productive prospecting, and are at least 84% more likely to achieve their quotas . Those are just some of the benefits.
THE GREAT RESIGNATION: SEISMIC SHIFTS IN THE ECONOMY HAS HIT COMPANIES WITH HIGHER EMPLOYEE QUIT RATES
In all, 20.2 million workers left their employers from May through September.
A survey found that 73% of 380 employers in North America were having difficulty attracting employees, three times the share that said so the previous year.
And 70% expect this difficulty to persist into 2022.
How To Start A Sales Conversation On LinkedIn
Dec 02, 2021
In this week’s episode of The Social Selling Show, Daniel and Will reveal tips on how to successfully start sales conversations on LinkedIn.
You'll learn:
Sponsored by:
Free SalesCode assessment
Learn your strengths and weaknesses in an instant. Taken by over 10,000+ of your competitors. Don't get left behind.
Take the free assessment
Featured on this episode:
Host - Will Barron
Founder of Salesman.org
Guest - Daniel Disney
The King of Social Selling
This episode of the show is brought to you from the Salesman.org HubSpot Studio. Welcome to the Social Selling Show. Myself Will Barron founder over at Salesman.org and the king, the freaking king of selling, Daniel Disney. Daniel, how's it going mate?
Daniel Disney:
It is going very well. We're excited to be back and today I know we've got quite an interesting topic that I'm very excited to dig into.
How to Appropriately Start a Sales Conversation with a Prospect on LinkedIn · [00:35]
Will Barron:
Well we're going to dive into how to appropriately start a conversation on LinkedIn, on social media without it being weird. It can't be as simple as just doing what I do every week for yourself Daniel and be like, “Hey, how's it going.” So Daniel, how do we … probably multiple criteria here, but I'll start super open ended. How do we start a conversation with a potential prospect on LinkedIn without it being weird, salesy, and just not appropriate and unbusiness like all together?
“You need to be confident and comfortable in what you're doing. The moment you have or show any nervousness or uncomfortability that's when you start to show the sales colours as such. Then the other bit is you need to have knowledge. You need to have knowledge on them and you need to have knowledge on obviously what it is you want to talk to them about.” – Daniel Disney · [01:01]
Daniel Disney:
Well, there are two key components in my experience. Number one, separate to the whole, I say separate, separate to the whole social selling piece is confidence. You need to be confident. You need to be confident and comfortable in what you're doing. The moment you have or show any nervousness or uncomfortability that's where you start to show the sales colours as such. Then the other bit is you need to have knowledge. You need to have knowledge on them and you need to have knowledge on obviously what it is you want to talk to them about. So we'll talk a little bit today around doing research, having a bit of homework and the balancing act of what to look for and how not to spend hours and hours and hours researching every facet of their life to only use one little bit of information. So yeah, knowledge and confidence are the key components of starting effective conversations on LinkedIn.
Is Confidence the Secret Weapon in Modern B2B Sales? · [01:48]
Will Barron:
Totally going to sidetrack here. But is confidence the secret hack, if there is one to sales in general? What I mean by that Daniel is, I know that our training project we sell at salesman.org, I can talk about it comfortably. I'm really happy with the quality of it and I've never really worked at any bad companies. I've only ever worked for, by fluke if nothing else, outstanding companies in the space. So I've always felt this confidence. But I know that I don't need to lie, I don't need to manipulate people.
Will Barron:
If someone is a good fit and they don't sign up, it's almost their loss. Of course perhaps I'm losing out some revenue and opportunity there, but I can walk away confidently from these conversations when someone doesn't want to sign up and go, “Well, it's your problem not mine.” It's confidence that they hack to all of this, because I feel like a lot of traditional sales training, sales training in the 80s, 90s, 2000s, was how to fake confidence, how to manipulate people, because you're not really sure on what you're selling. So is confidence the answer to a lot of what we talk about in modern B2B sales?
Daniel Disney:
Confidence is a huge part of sales and you see it in pretty much all types of outreach and prospecting, whether it's cold calling, email, video, face to face. If there is a lack of confidence pretty much the whole thing's going to fall apart. But then you see it with the successful salespeople. They often have just such a deep belief in what it is they sell and you're sort of talking about, I've never worked for a bad company. It's probably because they've made you believe that they are the best. The reality is they may not have been the best. There probably were competing products that were better in other ways.
“When you start with a company, if they can make you truly believe in what that company does, the products and the service, that installs a confidence where you are so passionate about it. But as with anything in sales, it's a balancing act. You can't be over excited, where you just want to talk about features and benefits and it's all focused on the products. You need to be confident in yourself and confident in your ability to help people.” – Daniel Disney · [03:21]
Daniel Disney:
But when you start with a company if they can make you truly believe in what that company does, the products and the service, that instals a confidence where you are so passionate about it. You're just passing that passion on. And as with anything in sales, it's a balancing act. You can't be over excited where you just want to talk features and benefits and it's all focused on the products. But you need to be confident in yourself and confident in your ability to help people. So I guess there is a right and wrong type of confidence.
The Importance is Being Confident in What You’re Selling When Starting a Sales Conversation on LinkedIn · [03:37]
Will Barron:
For sure. Well, if we have a scale with confident individual, successful individual on one end, the other end is probably going to be arrogant, manipulative, idiot. And most people to be fair are somewhere in between. And obviously we want to push toward that confident side the best we can. And again, we'll side track. We'll come back to social selling in a second. But genuinely I've only ever worked for the best companies in their spaces. Again, it could have been fluke. It could have been unconsciously by design, this recognised brands and I want to work with these organisations. Maybe that's part of the big hack, the big secret to selling, of not selling crappy products. Because it's probably 50% of the audience are going, “Well yeah, are quite good, but maybe there are bad products on the marketplace.” And there's probably another 50% saying what I'm saying of, “Hey, I do work for the market leader. I do work for HubSpot, Salesforce.” One of these massive brands that do incredibly well in this space. So is that part of the puzzle that perhaps we don't put enough emphasis on to be confident, to be able to start conversations being from the brand of the organisation that we represent, how important is that to starting a conversation?
“A lot of sales people take a job that's given or offered to them. They don't choose the job as much as they probably could or should. And that's advice to any salesperson of any position listening to this, next time you're looking for a sales role, do take the time to be more picky. Don't jump on the first person that gives you a call or an interview. Look for the product. Choose the product, because they need you as much as you need them.” -Daniel Disney · [05:07]
Daniel Disney:
I think there's two levels to that, because I do think you're right. Where working for a leading company is a huge advantage. And a good point of a lot of sales people, a lot of sales people take a job that's given or offered to them. They don't chose the job as much as they probably could or should. And that's advice to any salesperson of any position listening to this, next time you're looking for a sales role, do take the time to be more picky. Don't jump on the first person that gives you a call or an interview. Look for the product. Choose the product, because they need you as much as you need them. And I think there needs to be more of that in sales.
Daniel Disney:
The flip side to it, I've worked in companies in the past that weren't the market leader, but had a very competitive product, and my role, my teams role as sales is to go out and obviously help people understand that there's value in it. So I guess the other part of it is you might not be the market leader, but that doesn't mean your product doesn't have value and cannot compete with the market leader and there's not ways you can make it the right solution to your customers. So I think a big part of that confidence can come down to belief. And if you are the market leader, then fantastic. Then in theory, there may be an extra level of ease to it. But you'll still get your competitors probably competing quite closely to you. I see a lot of products now, the differences are minimal.
The Benefits of Working for Big, Reputable Brands · [07:05]
Will Barron:
Yeah. You set that up perfectly. And this is why I dug in a little bit there, because my background working medical devices, I worked for Olympus, I've worked for KARL STORZ, super well known brands in the space. KARL STORZ basically invented endoscopic surgery, which was the products I was selling, and I would literally just wave my badge. It wasn't even an NHS badge, it was going into a hospital, I waved my KARL STORZ identity badge in the window and I would be welcomed basically into any operating room in the U.K. Now if you worked for one of these still massive mega corporations that competed with them, like Stryker or Smith+Nephew, I've seen it where I'd be invited in and then the surgeon would be like, “Who's that dude from X, Y, Z Medical? I'm trying to work here, get them away from things.” And it's important to get both sides of the tail here, and you've done it perfect there Daniel, of if you've got a brand, for a lot of times in my experience, that is the beginning of your conversation. That gets you in the door. So-
Daniel Disney:
Bringing that back to social selling, Will … Sorry to interrupt you there … there's a really interesting point that again, we haven't discussed before. When you work for a big brand, obviously that is visible on LinkedIn. It can be in your job title. It will be on your profile, and you're absolutely right, that can be an in. Let's use Gong as an example. There's a high chance when people get messages from people at Gong, they recognise the company, just like you waving that badge and that can be a route in. So if you do work for a recognised company, then absolutely use that. Make sure it's visible in your profile. Have it in your title and headline. Make sure it's really prominent in your summary, because that is the equivalent of you waving the badge and potentially getting in front of the reader. Obviously we're talking about starting a conversation. I guess that's step one, use the brand and company you work for if it's something that's usable.
How to Start a Sales Conversation with a Prospect on LinkedIn · [08:24]
Will Barron:
… Yep. HubSpot, all the team have the orange background in their profile pictures. Dead obvious and clear that it's HubSpot. Gong have that jewel tone background in their background profile pictures. This is a call out to sales leadership and sales management to get everyone on a branded image if they can. That makes a big difference. But let's put that to one side, because that's great if you've got it right. Let's assume that you work for a decent company that you're pretty proud of and your somewhat confident to the products, how do we connect to someone on LinkedIn? Or do we? I guess, let's start from the very beginning, to get the conversation started. Do we connect with them? Do we send them an email first? We won't spend too long on that element of the prospecting, and we'll get into the conversation afterwards. But if we want to start a conversation with someone on LinkedIn, do we connect with them first, do we cold email them? What is the best way to be in a position to have a conversation?
Daniel Disney:
So there's two realities to this in my experience, Will. One is there's often very little difference in how you start out. Your first touch point, whether it's a LinkedIn connection, whether it's a cold call, whether it's a cold email. There's often very little difference. The only thing some companies do, those that have additional resources put into it is obviously really target it to the buyer. So if you were doing some research you see your prospect is very active on LinkedIn, then LinkedIn is probably going to be your best first call. If they're not very active, then email or phone might be a better call. It takes a little bit more effort, but it can help drive some better results. So often very little difference though in how you start that approach. What I'd recommend doing is again, mirror what your buyers or prospects are showing through either their digital presence or their activities. So yeah, 2I wouldn't say there's too much difference between them.
So our buyer is active on a LinkedIn. They're a CFO. Perhaps they've got a thousand followers, and they're posting content somewhat regularly. They're not trying to build a massive brand, but they are trying to be visible on there for thought leadership or whatever reason that they're on there for. How do we connect with them? I know this is going back to basics for a second here, but do we send them a message? Do we just connect? Does it depend on how strong our brand is, our personal brand and the brand we represent? How do we go about connecting with them so that we can or … I think this probably isn't the answer, or do we send them a LinkedIn message, or any message? InMail, whatever it's called.
Daniel Disney:
Yeah, the easiest way Will, and I teach this through LinkedIn training and Sales Navigator training. The easiest most successful way to do it is a three step approach. Number one, engage in their content. Now a little trick to being able to do that effectively is follow their profile first. So you can follow them. There's no connection. You can't message them directly. You can send them an InMail if you have Sales Navigator. But by following them they'll be in your feed. So over the period of three to five days you can see what they're posting as they post it live, and engage on a few of their posts. Don't become a stalker, as like and comment on every single post, because they'll see right through that. But if they post twice comment on one. If they post three times, comment on two. Do a few of their posts, then send them a connection request and reference one of the posts.
Daniel Disney:
Now this is assuming they're posting, so we'll use that as the example. Reference the post in the message. So, “Hi Will, loved your post that you shared yesterday.” But really do talk about it, don't just say I liked your post. What did you like about the post? What bit in particular did you really like? Show that you've made an effort. You've actually consumed it. High connection rates, and you're also starting a conversation without tactically starting a conversation because you often get a response and there you go, the door is open. You can start to navigate that into a more sales conversation.
Tips on How to Start a Conversation if the Prospect Has Accepted Your LinkedIn Request But Hasn’t Replied to Your Messages · [12:02]
Will Barron:
Perfect. Dead seamless. This is how dumb I am with this stuff. I wouldn't have even thought to follow them. I would have just put it in my diary to go back to their profile page every day and checked. Like Facebook was 15 years ago when there was no feed on there. So that's perfect. So let's assume they're accepted the request, but they haven't responded to the message. Which is if you've ever messaged me on LinkedIn, is probably the case. I'll accept people. I've read your message. I've just not got the time to go through all the LinkedIn messages and we don't do … It's more funds of the content that reach out to me as opposed to business opportunities. So I apologise if you've messaged me on LinkedIn and you've not had a reply. Probably I've read it. Let's assume they've read it, because they've accepted it, but they've not engaged in our comments on their post. What do we do to start an actual formal conversation I guess, where we say hi and they say hi and the conversation starts going back and forth?
Daniel Disney:
Here it is, Will, is one of the most effective things you can do right now in 2021, and I guarantee you probably by this time next year this isn't going to be as affective as it is right now. Sending audio, voice notes, or a video message. Because when you send a personalised connection request, that starts in the message chat, so that is the first message. That will appear as the first message in your conversation. So if they don't reply, and you send another written message, it does look quite salesy and it is very difficult to create a worded one that is going to prompt a conversation. If they haven't replied, there's a lower chance they're going to reply to another written message. However, a voice note or a video message stands out and it captures their attention.
Daniel Disney:
And I'm seeing a small 5% of the sales teams I'm working with are utilising this and it's just incredibly successful at the moment. And I think because it's interactive, because it's disruptive, because it's different, it's getting attention. So yeah, if you've sent that personalised connection request, they haven't responded, ping them a quick sub one minute audio message or video message and prompt the conversation. But just make sure you're passionate in the message, whether it's video or audio. But they've proven to be really effective. I guess the biggest challenge with it for a lot of people is they've never done it and so it's quite scary. So if you've never done an audio or a video message, practise first.
Dos and Don'ts for Sending LinkedIn Video Messages · [14:10]
Will Barron:
Okay. And the answer to this question is, well it depends, Will. But I've got to ask it. What the heck are we talking about in this video message? Are we talking about, “Hey, it's Will, Barron from Salesman.org. We've got a new accelerated training product. I'd love you to sign up for a free trial.” And then hang up. Is it a message like that or is it more along the lines of what we've been going with so far of trying to drive an organic conversation?
“I was analysing some message templates yesterday, Will, and so many sales people their style of pitch, whether it's written, audio, video, is, “Hi, I'm Will. This is what I do, blah, blah, blah.” Then it's, “This is why I think I can help you.” And the first bit of advice I give to everyone is, open it about them. Make it about them. “Hi, this is Will. I really think I can help you do this. Or I think I can help you achieve this.” Make it about, “I noticed you do this. I think I can help you achieve this.” Make it about them at the start, then tell them what it is you do.” – Daniel Disney · [14:36]
Daniel Disney:
It's a really interesting question. I was analysing some message templates yesterday, Will, and so many sales people that's their style of pitch, whether it's written, audio, video. It's, “Hi, I'm Will. This is what I do, blah, blah, blah.” Then it's, “This is why I think I can help you.” And the first bit of advice I give to everyone is, open it about them. Make it about them. “Hi, this is Will. I really think I can help you do this. Or I think I can help you achieve this.” Make it about it, “I noticed you do this. I think I can help you achieve this.” Make it about them at the start, then tell them what it is you do.
Daniel Disney:
Again, regardless of whether it's written, audio or voice, open it about them then tell them, show them how you think you can do it. And then have a really simple call to action. One of the more effective ones is, “I'd love to send you just a little bit more information on what we do. If you could just pop me your email address, I'd love to ping something across and if it's of interest, maybe it's something we can discuss.” Play it cool. I find the, “Are you free tomorrow for 15 minutes to jump on a call,” to be much less effective than trying to organically grow that conversation.
Daniel Disney:
And just to take this to the side as well, whilst you're doing this, because you're now connected, please also make sure you're sharing content as well, so they're getting value and getting to know you. If you rely purely on that conversation, it's going to take a lot longer. But, if whilst you're having this message exchange, which might take a few days, if you're sharing content and giving value at the same time, you're increasing the chance that they're starting to warm up to. You increase that reply response rate and you also increase the chance they're going to be open to a conversation.
Will Barron:
For sure. So I would go one step further in what we have tested at Salesman.org and we'll talk about this on future episodes. This should all be on the blog by the time this show goes out. So it sounds like it's a surprise now, but it really isn't a surprise because it'll all be published by the. But, we are getting our audience, there's 2,000 people, members of the Salesman.org community now. We're giving them essentially assignments. We're giving them experiments to run and then they're reporting back on it. Now, of course, not everybody does it, but hundreds of people are replying in the forum at the moment and going back and forth on things. And one of the things that we're asking people to do is lead with insights. Whether that's an insightful email as in, “Hey, I saw this gardener article. I saw this forestry report.”
Sales Conversation Tips: Leading with Insights · [16:56]
Will Barron:
None of this is rocket science. I've been banging about this for years. But one of the things I'm finding from the current experience that we're running is, it doesn't matter where you share this incite, whether it be on a cold call or how this might be useful for you, “I've just been speaking with someone in a capacitor company with similar products. They found this really useful. I'd love you to check it out.” To follow up with an email and drop you the link. Whether it's an email of the similar thing, or if it's on LinkedIn. Even on Twitter this is working where you share article posts. Better if it's a report, even better if you are … I use HubSpot as an example all the time because they sponsor all our stuff. They've got so much good content. So many good reports.
Will Barron:
Gong or brands who are in this space have similar internal content marketing that you can leverage. You share something from your own organisation is even better. And then the reply rate on that is insane. And again, this might die off eventually if everyone starts doing the same thing, but it's so value up front of, “Hey, we worked with people similar to you. They found this useful. You will probably find this useful.” It sets you up as somewhat of a subject matter expert in the fact that you know the relevance of this content for this individual.
Will Barron:
And then this business, even it's in the back of their mind, they're going, “Hey, even if I don't buy anything from these guys, this person's probably going to be useful for my career moving forward, if he continues, or she continues sending me these little bits of information I would have missed otherwise.” That, long story short is working incredibly well as maybe you wouldn't do it in your linked in connection request, but your second third message or a video of, “Hey, do you want to put a face to a name? This, this and this. Worked with a competitor, we're looking at working with a competitor, here's a piece of content they found really useful. You might find it useful as well.” That's working really well in the Salesman.org community, and the feedback from that. Again, it might not work in two years from now if everyone starts doing something similar, which tends to be the case of all this, but that's what I'm working on at the moment, and what we're pushing our audience to do.
Daniel Disney:
I actually love that, Will. That give to get mentality in sales is so effective, because I think probably for the longest time now in sales it's been just the taking mentality for sales people. They're calling, they're emailing, they're sending messages. And as I said, most of the templates I see, it's all about them. Here's what I do. Here's everything about me. Here's a link to my calendar, so you can book a meeting or have you got 15 minutes, it's all about you. And selfless sales people are succeeding more effectively right now where they give first. So yeah, however you do that, give to get. And that's probably one of the biggest tips we can give when it comes to starting a conversation on LinkedIn is give first and personalising it is a method of giving. It's showing you've done homework. It's showing you've made an effort. Having to read through their profile. Having to read through their activity. Finding something whether it's about them or something that's going to be valuable to them is one of the best ways to start a conversation.
Daniel Disney:
And I think what is very important that we also covered today, Will, is how much time you spend researching it. Because I trained a company last week and they were trying to tell me it takes them between 45 minutes and an hour per prospect to research before they contact them. And I was genuinely quite shocked at that amount of time, unless you're selling extremely high ticket items. That would be the only time that I could probably justify that amount of time spent on research. You shouldn't need to spend that time.
Will Barron:
Sure. And that would be me in medical devices. If I was going in to meet a surgeon I'd be ringing the [inaudible 00:20:36] manager to get the gossip on what's going on. I'd be speaking with biomedical engineering to see what services they offer to the surgeons. It was always the biggest deal to get this internet cable from the camera system and plug it into the hospital network. If we could make that connection, the whole deal went so much more seamlessly, because the biomedical engineering didn't want anything on the network. They didn't want any surgeon passing information around.
The Amount of Time You Should Spend Researching a Prospect Before Reaching Out to Them · [21:13]
Will Barron:
So I would genuinely spend an hour or two maybe even an afternoon going around fishing because those deals, I'd only have to close four or five of them a year, and that was my target smashed. But for most people, that's not the cases, especially if we're doing that initial outreach. So how long should be … the answer again, is it depends, Will. But from an initial outreach of a company that we're trying to do discovery with. We're trying to see if we are a good fit with them, how long should we be researching each of these people that we're engaging with?
Daniel Disney:
It will differ. Best example I can give is it's like an onion. You're peeling certain layers. For some of your prospects you'll get that information from their profile. They'll have lots of information in it and you'll be able to use enough from that to start conversation. Others you need to take a layer off and look at their activity. So look at what they're posting or engaging with. They might not be sharing content. Or look at what they're commenting on or what they're liking and sharing themselves, because there will be insights in that.
Daniel Disney:
Now if there's no information in that, the next layer is their website. Or their LinkedIn company page, and their LinkedIn company page's activity. Something more corporate. Have a read through that. The next layer, which is a lot deeper, but actually can be really effective, is other people working in the business. So if I'm trying to sell to the VP of marketing, I want to look at other people in the marketing team. I might look at the sales team or the customer service team, because there definitely will be people within there that are sharing insights, sharing content and it might be something you take from there to then mention in your conversation. Peel back the layers.
Daniel Disney:
Some people it will not take you long at all. It might take you a minute to see something and think, “Yep, that's what I need.” Others it might take five minutes, 10 minutes. Some might take a little bit more effort. You've always got to make sure you're weighing up how much value you think that prospect is going to offer you. You don't want to be spending half an hour, an hour, two hours on a prospect that isn't a high value prospect. So do make sure you keep that long term view point of okay, how valuable is this prospect likely to be? How likely do I think I can convert them? And then that should reflect the time you put in.
Will Barron:
Sure. And some of this will happen organically. If you follow someone for five days, as a round number, a work week, and you're following their posts, following their content, then inadvertently, you've probably done all the research you need to know because they're going to be posting what's top of mind for them. They're going to be posting, if they are posting … we'll go into that in a second if they're not … but if they are posting, they're probably posting somewhat topical things that you can relate to within that week. It's time boxed as obviously content drops off the face of the earth after a little bit when it's been posted on LinkedIn, and people are aware of this.
Will Barron:
So it's somewhat timely. It's going to be appropriate to them in that moment. And they're almost putting their hand up and saying, “Hey, there's an opportunity to collaborate here.” You're more likely to get a response by me by commenting on one of my posts, because I understand the algorithm and I want to increase the reach of the posts so I want to engage in that conversation after the fact in the comments itself, than if you just message me in general. So anyone who's relatively clued up might be thinking, or inadvertently thinking the same thing.
How to Reach Out to Prospects That Have a Semi-active LinkedIn Account · [24:11]
Will Barron:
But what happens, Daniel, if … You've answered this question somewhat with the onion analogy … but what happens if they're not posting on LinkedIn. But let's say they've got 2,000 followers. So at some point they have been active on there. It's not just a blank profile and maybe that one we should be using a different prospecting method. Let's assume that they've been active on there in the past, but they're not posting right now. Should we wait until the start posting, or should we still try and engage them on previous posts, or should we just send them a direct message? How do we go about that?
Daniel Disney:
It's an interesting question. So I sometimes do live prospect research with the companies that I trade and I did one this week. And this person that we were looking at, one of their prospects, they were really active three years ago in their previous role. Whenever since joining the current company which we're trying to prospect, then got totally quiet. Not created a single bit of content. But they were really active, which I found it absolutely fascinating. What we did was we looked all the activity section and actually they were still very frequently on a weekly basis, liking and commenting on other posts. So my advice to the sales person was go and engage in those posts as well so your name starts to get on their radar.
Daniel Disney:
And if you can, if there is an authentic, organic way to do it, you can reply to one of their comments on the post even better, because comments are becoming the new posts. You see some comments get more likes than the post itself. And if they've commented something that gives you a segue to add to or contribute, then again, it's the equivalent to commenting on their post. So they might not be posting, but if they're commenting, and you can reply to that, it's the same impact. It's still going to make you feel good. It's still exposure and all those wonderful things.
Daniel Disney:
So that's another way to look at, as we said with the onion analogy, the other thing to do is look at other people in the business. So let's say VP of marketing isn't active, maybe their commenting and you can do that. Maybe you go to marketing executive, now if you start to engage and comment on their content, there s quite a high chance Mr. VP or Mrs. VP of marketing if going to see that. And that's still your name coming up on their radar. So there are all these little opportunities. Again, it's just about peeling back the layers and finding the route in.
Sales Success and the Familiarity Effect · [26:30]
Will Barron:
So I've not asked you to prepare this, so I'll be pleasantly surprised if you know it off the top. But is there any data or science on this, because what we're alluding to here is this idea of your name, your face being seen lots of times pre-post and the midst of conversation. We're assuming it adds to a layer of familiarity. We're assuming it adds to a level of rapport that you wouldn't otherwise had if you just cold called someone out of the blue perhaps.
Will Barron:
And I'll go as far to say as we're assuming that if you can add smart insightful comments, it's increasing your perceived product knowledge, industry knowledge. You're going to be seen as less of a slimy sales person and more of a product expert of something like that. There's obviously a line where product experts are typically sales people as well. But you're leaning more towards that as a resource as opposed to someone who's just going to suck and take from the buyer and put them off the entire engagement process. But is there any data or science in any of this? Because we're making a few assumptions here that I assume to be true, probably are true, but it'd be interesting if they've ever been researched.
Daniel Disney:
There isn't any data or science and it's something I'm working on trying to create some more tangible numbers comparing it to other methods. I can only share it from my experience, from the companies that I work with. Having seen this in real time, having worked pre-social selling and sort of post social selling, I know what it's like to sell to people who have no idea who I am and even to people who have no idea who my company is. And then I know what it's like, very recently I sent a connection request to a managing director of a company. Never spoken to them, I have no relationship with them. And the first message they sent me was, “Daniel, your reputation proceeds you. Looking forward to chat.”
Daniel Disney:
Now, I then sent a video message and we had a strong conversation. You'd never get that had that person not known. If they had no idea who I was, there's a lot of steps I have to take before I'm going to get to that conversation. But those steps are sort of fast tracked as such. So I know from experience, but I'm hoping to collect some data soon that we can share, that I think is going to highlight what you and I both know and experience anyway.
Relationship Selling and Building Rapport in a Digital Marketplace · [28:41]
Will Barron:
Sure. And I'll make a note and I'll have a look at this, and I'll put anything I find in the show notes, because this doesn't have to be anything to do with social selling. It could just be familiarity with celebrity on social media. I bet you there's some kind of study where they look at whether teenage kids feel like they have a relationship with someone that they follow on TikTok or something like that. So what we're describing here is probably a smaller, a less broad application of that. But I bet you there's research on that. Because it seems obvious, right? I listen to loads of Joe Rogan and his podcast. I'm pretty confident … so here we go, in my head, I'm pretty confident that I could sit down with Joe Rogan, have a great conversation. He said some stupid stuff that I think I could clear up. He's made some assumptions, and every time he does so in the podcast, I'm like, “Ah Joe, when I meet you mate I'll set you clear on that.”
Will Barron:
But then the reality is, he doesn't know that I exist. Clearly he doesn't consume any of our content. It's unreasonable to even just imagine that he would. So the conversation itself would be completely one sided and weird. So I'm experiencing an again, a broad effect of what we're trying to do subtly, of just get your name in the … And you're mates with some Sam Downing as well. He did this to me. I was like, “Who the hell is this dude?” Next thing a month later I'm on his podcast. I don't do podcasts ever. I never guest anyone's podcast. And just conversation, commenting on essentially everyone of our posts, everyone of my posts, moving forward. Video messages, the occasional voice mail message, I helped him out, I think I would say I helped him out with something business wise, and he sent me a bottle of whisky.
Will Barron:
Next thing I'm on his podcast and that's what we're talking about here, isn't it? I don't feel like I was sold but he might have gone into the relationship at first going, “Will has this, access to these people, I want access to these people, and I'll make it happen appropriately.” So he's done a fantastic job and I'll tag him in this post when it goes out, but he's done a fantastic job doing this not to me, but with me, live as I'm learning more about social selling as well.
Daniel Disney:
Think of the positive impact, Will. This is probably the third or fourth time you've mentioned Sam throughout this.
Will Barron:
I know, yeah.
Daniel Disney:
No, as it should be. But it's a positive impact. This isn't selling in the way people perceive selling, this is just being an authentic person who cares about what they do, genuinely wants to help and there is as much give as there is take. It's a mutually beneficial relationship that leaves you with a positive impression of that person. That is as you're saying right now, sales done right. Whatever platform you use, that is sales done right. But I think you're right, there is this level of, celebrity is a weird word when we talk about LinkedIn, but there is this association when you get to know someone and see them frequently enough. When you meet them you do feel like you've got, I call it a digital relationship. You feel like you have a level of a relationship, and that is so powerful.
Daniel Disney:
Again, having come from a time in sales when none of that existed, and you are literally the coldest worst person in the world when you have that first conversation. And you have to climb a mountain to build rapport when you can walk in. It's kind of the Sandler methodology. When you can walk in and be on a level playing field with your prospect, which is what you're able to do with LinkedIn and social selling, that creates a much stronger relationship where it becomes a more positive experience.
Why the Future of Sales Requires a Different Kind of Seller · [32:13]
Will Barron:
So I'll get your thoughts first, so I don't colour what you're going to say here Daniel, is this the future of selling? So it doesn't have to be on LinkedIn as a platform, it doesn't necessarily have to be across social media. But this idea of there being a … Right now there's a sliding scale of one end is Sam Downing, hopefully is what I'm doing as well, and what you're doing. You're creating insightful content. Pointing out that, building an audience, lots of inbound leads. And when you do reach out to people outbound, not every time, but sometimes, they'll know you. So that's one end.
Will Barron:
The other end is the used car sales person. Where they know that if you come into the showroom and you leave, you're probably never coming back. So they're going to do everything weird manipulation tactic known to man to try and just get you to sign something. It doesn't matter what it is, just sign something so that they can continue selling to you over the days or weeks to buy some crappy used car. So those are the two ends. Let me ask you this, I'll phrase it like this, is it true that five years from now there's going to be not a grey area in the middle, there'll be one or the other?
Daniel Disney:
I think it is, Will. And just to add some context to this, Mark Hunter, who I know you know. Author of High Profit Prospecting and a Mind For Sales, has posted something last night, tagged me in it, an amazing article where in the U.S. one of the biggest companies out there has banned cold calling for all of their sales team and is now pushing all the resources into things like LinkedIn and referrals. Can't remember the name of it. I will find it offline. Maybe we can add it to the show notes.
Daniel Disney:
But, Mark was starting a very interesting thread about whether this was a positive or a negative thing. Regardless of the deeper thoughts around it, that's a big statement piece for a very large public facing company to declare that that pure cold outreach on the other end of the spectrum is no longer what they feel to be effective, and actually looking for warmer approaches via referrals, via LinkedIn and obviously other means, is something they see as the future of sales. So yes, I agree. I do think pure cold has been shrinking and I think will continue to shrink. I think there'll be more. And LinkedIn is one of many other ways you can do warmer outreach. But I found it quite interesting to see such a large company make that choice.
Will Barron:
So you said two things here. I'm being slightly pedantic, but I think it's useful. You said the company feels this way and they've made this choice. If the cold already isn't working, they're just not going to do it. Clearly they're not feeling this. This is not an emotional someone in the organisation has data that says, this doesn't work anymore. This does work anymore and a smart marketer has gone, “Hey, this is a story that we'll get publicity on if we publicise the fact that we're not doing cold calls anymore.” This is not an emotional decision. Sales maybe 1% of it can be … You can tie most into it, because it can lead to lots of influence on the backend of that. But it should be as best as you can, as logical as possible, if I know that I'm going to create, I'm going to suck it up for six months, 12 months, I'm going to become known as whoever in my little space.
Will Barron:
So me, medical device sales, I use this analogy all the time. In hindsight now, I would start … it's so much easier to start a podcast now that what it was six years ago, seven years ago. I'd start a podcast. I would interview all the surgeons in Yorkshire. I don't give an S if nobody listens to it. I'm just now the hope and the spoke show of the surgeons and I'm the centre of this little network. And then once a quarter, I invite everyone who's been on the show recently out for lunch, and that's it. Then I would create a blog post. I'd pay someone to transcribe the interviews, and I'd pay someone probably, if I've not got time myself, or I'd get my marketing organisation to do it, to create a blog post, and that's a blog.
Will Barron:
And then when I wanted to cold outreach to someone, I'd say, even if it was a cold call, if we're going down that route, which I think is the most difficult way to connect with someone in a way that adds value at this moment in time. I do what I said earlier, “Hey, I've just been speaking to Dr. yada yada, I've got this blog post, we've transcribed it. I think this might be really useful to you because you do the same urology service as this individual. Do you want me to send it over? What's your email address? I'll get it over now. If there's anything you want to chat about on the back of this, perhaps I can make an introduction between you and them or I can add to some value in another way in between.” As the mere sales person, as opposed to all you high ranking surgeons. Because immediately when you do that the surgeon goes, “Oh, crap. This person isn't a sales person. They're an expert in the domain. They're an expert in the space.” And it's three months away. It's six months away.
Will Barron:
And once you've built it, that IP, that intellectual property, that podcast, that asset is yours. It's not the companies. I went from Olympus, the best in the space to KARL STORZ, the other best in the space. They both have essentially 48% market share across the endoscopy market here in the U.K. And all, not all, but a bunch of my customers came over with me, because they wanted to deal with me as opposed to the products are both great, so they're somewhat product agnostic. Now if I'd gone to a crappy company, I'm sure they wouldn't have followed me over. But having that intellectual property, sucking it up for three to six months, 12 months to build it, and then being able to outreach with insights that are yours and unique, even on a cold call that is got to be the future of sales.
Will Barron:
And that turns you from this cliché where sales managers, you've probably said it yourself, Daniel, of think of yourself as an entrepreneur and you've got your territory, and you're running a little business. It turns it from a wishy washy analogy to every sales manager of all time has said, into an actual reality where you do have some ownership and you're sales manager is going, “Will's had a bit of a down month, it's okay though, because he brings in so many leads for everyone else that we can't really get rid of him. Let's see if we can promote him or move him sideways into a slightly different role where we can incentivize him in different ways.” That all comes on the back of this idea of these used car sales people, those product experts and if you're somewhere in the middle you're just dead. You're done. Because all the traditional way of doing sales, it's just gone forever.
Starting Cold Sales Conversations and Thought Leadership is About Giving Value Upfront · [38:18]
Daniel Disney:
It's a really good point Will, if we break this down to core focus of this episode today around starting the conversation, it's about giving value. How do you give value? You do something that's relevant to your prospects. It could be a podcast, it could be a YouTube channel. It could be LinkedIn personal brand or content. It could be a blog series. There are so many ways. Micro communities. This is one of the new things I'm seeing lots of people create, micro communities relevant to their target prospects. There are so many things you can do within LinkedIn, outside of LinkedIn. There are so many options, and that's exactly what I would do, Will. And it is easier now than it was when both of us started.
Daniel Disney:
But that is where I would start. I would create something that was relevant and value to may target prospects and just build and build and build. Because you're right, you take it with you. It stays as long as you don't brand it towards the company you work with. As long as it is your thing, you can take it everywhere. And that is leading towards the … And I know it's a marmite word, thought leadership place, where you become credible, respected and valuable in your industry. Where people see you and there is a level of respect associated to that. That is definitely where sales is now ans will continue to go.
Will Barron:
It has to. It just has to. And I'll wrap up with this, for anyone who isn't sold, the best way to describe it is the buyer journey. 10 years ago the buyer would get so far and they would have to speak to a sales person to get pricing information, literature. You'd be hanging out a flyer, whatever it is. The seller had the key to making the sale. Now the buyer, again, this is cliché that we all talk about so much. The buyer is like, again this is cliché that we all talk about so much. The buyer is 70, 80, eventually they will be 90% of the way through the sales process, they don't need you for any of that stuff. So if you don't add something unique as an individual to the conversation, they might as well just ring customer services and buy online. Or not even ring services, just buy on an online order form.
“Unless you're positioning yourself as someone who adds confidence, knowledge and the ability to research an individual so you can have an insightful conversation, unless you've got those three things, you're going to be replaced, as sad as it sounds, by an online order form and customer service.” – Will Barron · [40:13]
Will Barron:
So unless you're positioning yourself as someone who adds, as you started the show with, Daniel, confidence, knowledge and the … because research gives us skill as well, which Daniel can teach you through his training … the ability to research an individual so you can have an insightful conversation. Unless you've got those three things, you're going to be replaced as sad as it sounds by an online order form. Oh, and customer service, which they don't pay commissions to and most businesses can just wrap up and scale much quicker than a sales team. If you don't have any of that, because of the buyer journey, because they're so far down the buying cycle. If you're not adding something unique at the end of it, buyers don't need you anymore. So that's slightly depressing, and exciting for anyone who's on the same wave length as you and I.
Daniel Disney:
It's exciting for people that truly care about selling. These are the people that are going to invest in all these extra curricular activities. They're going to help them long term. Will, you're not wrong. You're 100% right. As a sales person, you need to add as much value as the product and service that you are selling. You need to invest in you. Your company needs to invest in you, because that's where the longevity of the business lies. So yes, the future of sales is very much going to be putting value in yourself, and you need to make sure you're growing something that is going to give extra value to your prospects. You've got to ask yourself, why are they going to choose me? What am I going to offer that's different or extra, that's going to make them choose me? Now in five years, in 10 years time, now's the time to think about it. If you're just picking up the phone trying to hit this months target and you're not thinking ahead, it's going to get much more difficult.
Will Barron:
For sure. And this might be a problem with just selling as a career. That we only think quarterly. If you are in marketing, you might want to get to a marketing director role. If you are an architect you might want to do small houses, then bigger houses, then run your own firm, and then do some artistic piece. You might want to leave your mark on the planet. On the city that you live in. Sales, it's quarter to quarter to quarter, and hopefully we've got some good hobbies in the background, an actual life away from sales to spend all this hundreds of thousands of dollars of commission that we're hopefully all earning.
Parting Thoughts · [42:40]
Will Barron:
Or maybe this is just a problem rooted in selling as it is right now that will hopefully change if people don't chose typically sales as a career. And hopefully we can mould it into more of a career for our audience and then for future sales people as well who are going to be listening to this in 10 years and be going, “Those two idiots were completely wrong about everything. In hindsight, that was complete nonsense.” So with that Daniel, we'll wrap up there mate. Anything else you want to add to the conversation before we wrap things up properly?
Daniel Disney:
No, but just to summarise, if you want to start conversations effectively, make an effort. Do some homework and make the more about them. Make a little bit less about you and your amazing products that I'm sure you're very passionate about. But make it about them. Talk about how you can help them first. That is one of the biggest keys to starting all conversations. Because that can't be automated. A bot can't do that. It shows you care, and it's going to build a relationship that goes beyond just the sales. So yes, make an effort is my final thought. Give it a try. You'll see hopefully it starts more conversations for you.
Will Barron:
And give it a try is my feedback on all of this. I feel like I've done some rants on this episode. I feel like we've gone off the rails a little bit. You don't over complicate anything that we've just said. We've gone through the history of sales, the future of sales, becoming a thought leader in this space whatever that … that word will change into something else. I'm sure over time. We might not even be called sales people once we are product and industry experts or thought leaders, whatever we're going to call it. But yeah, don't let any of that stop you from reaching out to people with an article, a blog post, whatever it is. A friendly message now. Get it done and you can test and see what works from there.
Will Barron:
So that will wrap up this episode of the Social Selling Show, that was Daniel Disney, the king of social selling. My name is Will Barron, founder of Salesman.org and we'll speak to you next week on next week's episode of the Social Selling Show.
The Surprising Truth Behind What Makes People Take a Chance on You | Salesman Podcast
Dec 01, 2021
On this episode of the Salesman Podcast Suneel Gupta explains what being “backable” is and why some salespeople get ahead and others don't.
You'll learn:
Coming soon.
Sponsored by:
Free SalesCode assessment
Learn your strengths and weaknesses in an instant. Taken by over 10,000+ of your competitors. Don't get left behind.
Take the free assessment
Featured on this episode:
Host - Will Barron
Founder of Salesman.org
Guest - Suneel Gupta
Author: Backable
What Is Sales Effectiveness? + 5 Top Tips To Boost Yours
Nov 29, 2021
Nobody's perfect, especially in the world of sales.
Even if buyers love you, your sales team and you're building rapport within mere seconds of getting on the phone. Even if you're blowing your quota out of the water every month. And even if you're the undisputed leader in your industry…
The fact remains, there's always—always—room for improvement in sales performance.
But the first step towards getting better is understanding how well you're doing in the first place. That's where measuring your sales effectiveness comes in. And the more you factor your sales effectiveness into your processes, the better poised you'll be to take home some fat commission checks.
So, what is sales effectiveness exactly? How do you measure it? And what steps can you take to improve yours?
We'll answer these questions and more in this guide. We'll also look at specific metrics to consider, the importance of alignment, sales effectiveness versus sales efficiency, and much more.
What Is Sales Effectiveness?
It can be tough to nail down a single, indisputable definition of sales effectiveness. Depending on your organization, it may be the amount of revenue a salesperson generates. For others, it could be leads generated in a new vertical.
But ultimately, sales effectiveness boils down to one thing:
“Sales effectiveness is the measurement of how well a salesperson achieves specific outcomes.”
If that comes off a bit general, that's intentional. Different businesses have different measures of success, especially when it comes to building a growth strategy. And while one sales department may be tasked with bringing in as many new sales as possible, others may be focusing on promoting a new product.
It's the overarching goals, then, that define sales effectiveness—not just revenue.
Let's look at an example to clarify this point.
Understanding Goal Alignment: An Example
Let's say your accounting software company is trying to expand its customer base. Right now, they're pushing to target the shipping industry. Breaking into shipping will lead to the following results:
Significantly greater revenue gains
Higher customer satisfaction rates
More diversified revenue streams
Making this shift is beneficial in the long run. As such, your sales department's goal for this quarter is to increase product sales to businesses within the shipping industry.
Now let's say a salesperson made an astonishing number of sales this quarter. They generated record-level revenue. But they only made sales in the current vertical and none in shipping. So despite pulling in some great numbers, this salesperson would have low sales effectiveness as a result.
It's essential, then, to base your sales effectiveness on the specific departmental goals that have been given to you rather than just revenue. Otherwise, you may be undermining a well-constructed strategy built to ensure more tremendous success later.
A Few Stats About Sales Alignment
So, how important is sales alignment really? After all, isn't the end goal of hiring salespeople to make more money? Why can't we just shoot for more sales?
As it turns out, tightly aligned businesses tend to be far more successful than unaligned ones. Have a look.
Organizations who measure sales effectiveness and have tightly aligned goals enjoy 36% higher customer retention rates, and 38% higher sales win rates (MarketingProfs).
Better alignment can help your company become 67% better at closing deals (Marketo).
B2B organizations with tightly aligned sales and marketing operations achieve 19% faster revenue growth and 15% higher profitability (Forrester).
So, while you may be tempted just to sell, sell, sell, a salesperson with high sales effectiveness meets goals, not just quotas.
Hitting goals means a stronger sales pipeline, more reliable customer acquisition and less time needed qualifying leads rather than converting them to potential customers.
Sales Force Effectiveness Metrics
How exactly does one measure sales effectiveness across a sales organization?
There are countless sales metrics you can use to measure your sales rep effectiveness. For example:
Percentage of sales reps that reach their quota (or how often you reach your quota)
Sometimes, sales effectiveness is mistaken for sales efficiency. While the two terms are often used together, they're pretty different.
Sales effectiveness – is a measurement of what you achieved. Think of it as the output or the end product.
Sales efficiency – is the cost of that achievement. Think of it as the input or the expense of that end product.
Despite being practically opposites of each other, you need to record both sales effectiveness and sales efficiency to get the complete picture of how well you're performing and to improve sales efficiency.
This full-picture view is often called sales productivity. High sales productivity means efficiently achieving the right goals, while low sales productivity means inefficiently achieving the wrong goals. In between is low effectiveness at high efficiency and vice versa.
You can see the outcome of different sales productivity variations using the sales productivity matrix from Highspot below.
Sales Efficiency Metrics
Just like sales effectiveness, there are so many different ways to measure sales efficiency. Any expense used by the salesperson that contributes to a win can be used. Most metrics for this category will measure either time or the costs of tools.
Below are some of the most common sales efficiency metrics.
Percentage of time selling
Percentage of time on data entry
Percentage of time in content creation
Percentage of marketing collateral used by sales reps
Number of sales tools used
5 Sales Best Practices for Boosting Sales Effectiveness
Now that you have a better understanding of sales effectiveness let's look at how to increase yours.
1) Record Everything
What doesn't get recorded doesn't get analyzed. That's why first and foremost, you need to start recording as many sales metrics as you can.
If you're a sales leader this shouldn't be a shock for you. Sales and marketing teams that don't track data and have a consistent sales process are measuring the wrong key performance indicators.
How often are you reaching your quota? How much revenue are you bringing in with each new deal? How prepared are leads for a sales conversation when marketing sends them your way?
The more information you have to work with, the better able you'll be to identify weak points in your processes and make improvements.
And don't forget to record efficiency metrics like time and tool expenses too. Otherwise, you won't be able to calculate your actual sales productivity.
2) Align Your Goals
We have already discussed the importance of goal alignment above. However, it can't be overstated how important this step is.
Be sure to communicate with team leaders and coordinate with other departments to define a cohesive strategy. Should you be focusing on customer retention? Which products should get priority? How do your goals impact the company strategy as a whole?
Understanding the answer to these questions will help you pick out which metrics you should be concentrating on when selling into the marketplace.
3) Find the Right Content
It turns out that 76% of content marketers don't create content for salespeople. Why is this problematic for sales teams? A whopping 79% of buyers said the winning vendor's content significantly impacted their buying decision.
You depend on having informative content to educate your prospective buyers and move them through their buyer's journey. What's more, having the right content for the right stage of that journey is critical.
That's why it's so essential your marketing department (or whoever handles content) provides you with the right type of content. You may need to work closely with your marketing team to create more catered content that moves sales leads forward. Or failing that, become more vocal about your management team's need for great buyer-focused content.
4) Standardize & Enforce Your Processes
Once you've identified the metrics you should be targeting and have the right content to share with your buyers, it's time to standardize your sales processes.
Using a industry leading sales methodology like the Simple Selling Method is critical for improving overall sales performance.
This process of standardizing your sales strategy can be a challenging step for sales salespeople. Some companies have standard procedures defined, but few sales reps follow them. Some may even let reps follow their processes entirely.
The key here is to eliminate variables. Instead, create your sales process and stick to it. That way, you can figure out what's working and what isn't.
It's worth noting that companies with defined, standard workflows generate more revenue than those without them.
5) Optimize & Iterate
After putting your new metric-focused processes in place, it's time to reevaluate and optimize across your sales analytics.
How are you performing a week, month, or a quarter later? Have you seen improvements in the metric you're targeting?
If not, you'll need to go back and test another approach. Try out new best practices. Experiment with other sales tools. Seek out specialized coaching or training. Join the Selling Made Simple Academy.
If you have seen improvements in your sales results, be sure to keep optimizing for even more significant gains. Don't forget—no one is perfect. And the more you work at optimizing your sales processes for greater sales effectiveness; the better your metrics will look over time and the more chance you have of crushing your sales quota.
Improving Sales Effectiveness Is a Process
If you've just started to improve your sales effectiveness, it's important to remember that doing so is a process. Recording metrics, standardizing your processes, aligning your goals, optimizing—it all takes time. But with enough dedication and the right strategy, you'll start to see the value.
And for you, that means achieving more company objectives and, ultimately, becoming a better sales professional.
Master the Art of Cold Calling: 4 Tips for Boosting Sales
Nov 26, 2021
It takes thick skin to be a cold caller. The unreturned messages. The right-off-the-bat hang-ups. The downright rude remarks.
Even still, there are some people who thrive in the B2B cold call world. They’ve got the same resources as you. And the words on the page of their scripts aren’t any different than yours. So, what’s their secret? And what do you have to do to start seeing the same kinds of results?
That’s where the art of cold calling comes in.
Expert Note:
“Cold calling is a lousy place to make a sale. But it happens to be a great place to learn how to sell.”
Jeffrey Gitomer
Sales Leadership Show
The art of cold calling is that extra “something” that lets other salespeople close more deals than their colleagues. It’s the soft skills that go above and beyond those scripted words on the page. And it’s exactly what you need to start becoming a better cold caller.
This guide takes you through four tips for mastering the art of cold calling. Inside, we’ll look at how to improve your mindset, boost your confidence, build rapport on cold calls, and more. And for you, that means closing more deals and taking home bigger commission bonuses.
Mastering the Science of Cold Calling
Before jumping into the art of the cold call, let’s look at the other equally important side—the science. There’s plenty of research out there on the hard and fast rules of selling well. Research like this:
The faster you respond to sales leads, the better. After a sales lead demonstrates interest, their response rate to calls drops by eight times after the first hour (CallHippo).
Salespeople with higher contact ratios make more sales. A whopping 80% of sales require five follow-up calls after the first meeting with a buyer. And 44% of sales reps give up after just one negative response (MarketingDonut).
Day of week and time of day matter. Wednesday and Thursday are the best days to call and from 4:00 pm to 5:00 pm is the best time (Hubspot).
Meeting your buyers’ needs counts (and is rare). Only 38 % of buyers feel salespeople who’d called them delivered information relevant to their needs. But 83% of the salespeople who made the cold calls thought they were spot-on (Hubspot).
Buying decisions require lots of stakeholders. Seven people are involved in the buying decision on average. Plus, it takes at least five of them to agree for a sale to happen (Salesforce).
Be sure you take these insights into account when building out your sales processes. Because without the proper science-backed foundation, mastering the art of cold calling won’t get you anywhere.
Mastering the Art of Cold Calling: 4 Fantastic Cold Calling Tips
Contrary to what you may believe, great cold-calling B2B sales people aren’t born—they’re made. And when you follow the four tips below, you too can master the art of cold calling and become known as a cold calling break on your sales team.
#1: Believe In the Product You’re Selling
This one’s simple. But it’s also vital.
If you don’t believe in the product you’re selling, you’re never going to excel at selling it. That’s because buyers can sense insincerity. Your body language, facial tics, and other barely perceptible cues hint at whether you’re telling the truth. And if you wouldn’t buy what you’re selling, those cues will communicate that to your buyer.
So if you don’t stand behind your product, it may be time to find something new to sell.
Pro Tip: Dive deep into researching your product.
Learning about what you sell before jumping on a sales call is a necessity. If you’re having a hard time believing in your product, take some extra time to learn more about it.
Talk to subject-matter experts (SMEs) about use cases. Use the product yourself to get a feel for it. Read through testimonials from satisfied customers.
When the product you’re selling is a genuine part of your life, people can hear it in your voice. And that enthusiasm will be infectious.
#2: Don’t Get Stuck In the Past
Salespeople stuck in a rut will too often become fixated on the past:
“Obviously, I’m not right for being a salesperson.”
“I don’t have what it takes, so I’m never going to make my numbers this month.”
“I just can’t break out of this losing streak.”
This fixation on the past often leads to a vicious cycle since buyers can smell your desperation. And a desperate salesperson cannot be trusted. When you attach yourself to a particular outcome on a sales call (“I need to make this sale”), you’ve already lost the battle.
Instead, acknowledge that you’d like a positive outcome. But realize that there are other beneficial things to gain from the call, too (experience, practice, etc.).
This is known as having a “growth mindset,” Adopting it can do wonders for your sales career.
Pro Tip: Adopt a “growth mindset” to help you learn from failures.
Researchers have found two types of mindsets: a “fixed” mindset and a “growth” mindset.
Those with a fixed mindset believe they’re born with a fixed set of abilities. Their successes and failures aren’t in their control since their intelligence and skill set are unchangeable. For salespeople, thoughts like, “I was never right for sales” indicate a fixed mindset.
A growth mindset, on the other hand, recognizes that abilities can be changed. It takes work to make these changes, of course. But a growth-minded individual will look at failures as learning experiences. They may think, “I’m not great at sales now. But with enough experience, I can get better.”
Expert Note:
“Cold calling and objection handling are usually the two biggest fears that I hear when we work with sales teams and individual reps. And with objection handling, if you think about where that fear comes from, it's almost like, “I don't want to be sales-y.”
Jason Bay
Salesman Podcast
As it turns out, individuals who held a growth mindset were three times more likely to score in the top 20% on tests. Those with a fixed mindset, on the other hand, were four times more likely to score in the bottom 20%.
The message here is clear: look at your experiences as chances to learn, not as opportunities to fail.
#3: Connect With Buyers on a Human Level
Though there’s value in a well-made script, humans ultimately want to buy from humans, not machines. And if you’re running through a list of questions in a lifeless, step-by-step manner, your buyers aren’t going to be engaged.
That’s why it’s up to you to connect with sales leads on a human level. Try straying just a hair from your script to ask follow-up questions and get your buyers talking. Comment on any personal-life anecdotes they share too.
Show your buyers that you are, in fact, an actual, breathing human. Because when you do, they’re going to be far more likely to trust you.
Building rapport is essential throughout the sales cycle. But for cold calls, your time to build that rapport with buyers is limited. That’s why you need to get to work—and fast.
Try these tactics to build rapport with your sales leads instantly.
Don’t skip the small talk. It shows you’re interested in solving a buyer’s problem and not 100% focused on your commission.
Be genuine. Be yourself, don’t give false compliments, and speak to your buyer like an equal.
Listen more. Engage in active listening and be sure to ask relevant follow-up questions along the way.
Build on shared experiences. Mention shared contacts, work together to solve problems, and demonstrate that you’re on the same team.
#4: Spin Your Negative Self-Talk
We all have that voice in the back of our heads telling us we’ll never be good enough. Even the highest performing salespeople aren’t strangers to self-doubt. But when that voice becomes so strong that it’s all we focus on, it starts impacting our performance.
One way to curb that negative self-talk is by spinning those conversations in your head. For every negative criticism that pops into your head, try and find a positive alternative.
Below are a few examples of how to spin negative self-talk from the Mayo Clinic.
The more you identify and immediately spin your negative self-talk, the less of an impact it will have on you. And consequently, you’ll soon start noticing yourself feeling more confident on your sales calls.
After all, you are what you think.
Pro Tip: Hold your thoughts up to a magnifying glass.
The first and often hardest step of spinning negative self-talk is catching yourself doing it. To do that, you need to become a pro at “thinking about thinking.” Try to become more aware of those negative thoughts as they enter your head.
Below are a few tactics you can take to spot those thoughts early on.
Ask, would I say that to a good friend or child? If not, then those are the types of thoughts you should be spinning.
Remember, thoughts and feelings aren’t always reality. Is what you’re saying actually true? The more critical you are of thoughts that pop in your head, the better able you’ll be to catch the negative ones.
Understand your value proposition. Kick off the sales process with confidence as soon as you dial that phone number. Before you start asking the prospect open ended questions or even start the conversation, make sure you know what you're calling in the first place.
Give your inner critic a nickname. By personifying your inner critic, you’re putting them outside of yourself and recognizing that you don’t have to accept those critiques as the truth.
Need Help Mastering the Art of Cold Calling?
Anyone who’s worked in the cold calling industry knows there’s plenty of science behind doing the job well. But sellers need more than a spot-on script to keep buyers on the phone. And that’s where the art of cold calling comes in.
When you follow the four tips above, you’ll be well on your way to mastering the art of cold calling. It can take work. And a bit of practice too. But with some persistence, you’ll start capturing more interest, generating more deals, and earning better commissions in no time.
Team Selling: Land Bigger Clients With A Bit of Teamwork
Nov 22, 2021
As a salesperson, you’re used to being a lone wolf. From digging up new clients and qualifying leads to deliver the perfect pitch and managing accounts, you do it all. And you’re used to flying solo.
But as modern businesses continue to scale and tighten up their processes, team selling often becomes the sales method of choice. It’s better at landing bigger deals. And it leverages the unique expertise of the many, not just the one.
So, what is team selling? And what do you need to know to start to use team selling today?
This guide dives into team selling and the pros and cons of this style of sales. It also outlines our four-point framework for successfully implementing team selling into your processes.
What Is Team Selling?
As the name implies, team selling is simply using two or more members of your organization to close on a deal. These team members could be from the same department (e.g., two salespeople). Or they could be from different departments (e.g., a salesperson, a developer, and a customer success specialist).
The exact makeup of your team will depend on your buyer’s problem, their use case, and much more. For instance, if your prospective buyer will be custom coding your product to integrate with their enterprise systems, including a developer on your team would make sense. On the other hand, if they’re concerned about the onboarding and implementation, a customer success specialist can help outline the process and put those fears to rest.
Team selling is excellent for handling accounts that are especially high value, have many moving parts, or are of other strategic importance.
The Ups & Downs of Team Selling
Expert Note:
“Momentum is a key sense within sales teams. “
Crevan O’Malley
Salesman Podcast
While many sales situations can benefit from a team selling approach, there are pros and cons here. Therefore, it’s essential to be informed about each to decide when team selling is a good fit.
Pros of Team Selling
Better Understand Your Buyer’s Pain Points – With a more diverse team onboard, you’re in a better position to get at the heart of the buyer’s underlying problem. That’s because each brings their expertise to the table. A more informed team member will know which questions to ask to learn more about their needs.
Demonstrate Benefits – Piggybacking on that last point; those experts can also communicate and demonstrate the benefits of your solution and how it solves the buyer’s problem. For example, a salesperson may be able to recite product specs. But only an engineer can handle getting deep into the weeds about technical details (which may be precisely what the buyer’s looking for).
Greater Meeting Fluidity – Having more team members backing you up also means they can actively track down information while you’re presenting. No one has all the answers all of the time. But with a team at your back, they can search for unanswered questions, feature breakdowns, or other supplementary sales collateral. And having that information on-hand now rather than after the call can make a world of difference.
Increases Buyer Engagement – Team selling also helps hold your buyer’s attention. Even the most charismatic salesperson is constantly battling against a lack of buyer focus. Gong found that switching things up every nine minutes or less is associated with higher close rates. Bringing in a subject matter expert resets that focus clock. And it keeps your buyers from fading out.
Cons of Team Selling
Resource Intensive – The biggest downside to team selling is its most obvious flaw—it takes up more resources. Time spent supporting your sales pitch is time that your team members could be spending on other tasks. There’s also the time it takes to get team members up to speed on the buyer and the proposed product.
Communication Across Departments May Suffer – While you do work for the same company, that doesn’t mean your terminology is always the same. Departments may use different terminology to describe the same situation. And that can confuse you when it comes time to pitch your product.
Learning Curve for Most Salespeople – Many salespeople traditionally work alone. Prospecting, nurturing, closing—they’re used to doing it all. So, when these responsibilities are spread across many individuals, that can take some getting used to.
Challenging to Assess Individual Contributions – Sales tends to be commission-based. And that can lead to some sticky situations when multiple salespeople bring on a new account. Who worked the hardest? Who had the most impact on their buying decision? And who gets the bulk of the bounty?
The 4-Point Framework for Implementing a Team Selling Approach
There’s no “right” way to implement team selling. Every industry, organization, sales strategy, and market is different. And what works for one may not align with another. However, you can do a few things to make your transition to team selling more successful.
1) Know When Team Selling Is Best
Expert Note:
“You need a multi-capability team on your super high-profit customers”
Jonathan Byrnes
Salesman Podcast
Every deal isn’t suitable for a team selling approach. While most instances can benefit from this sales style, it can be resource-intensive. Sometimes, it makes more fiscal sense to go the solo sales route.
Team selling works best for sales whales—deals that are five to ten times larger than average. And while it’s not a hard and fast rule (team selling 100% of the time may make sense for your unique business), it’s a good place to start.
For smaller deals, consider bringing on other members just for partial input (e.g., only a quick word or two from the developer or executive).
2) Build the Right Sales Team
It’s essential to align your sales team members with your audience.
Being cross functional, problem solving, shortening sales cycles and enhancing the buying process is all depending on if your team can work together.
Are your customers bringing a tech lead to the meeting? You should do the same. Is a customer experience specialist going to be in the room? Make sure your product expert is there to outline precisely how your solution looks and feels. Is the key company c-suite making an appearance? Try to get yours on board too.
A bit name or title helps, of course. But what’s more important here is providing your buyer with the info they need to get to yes. And that info comes from expertise, not just a corner office.
Remember, subject matter expertise isn’t the only thing that should come into play when building your sales team. Soft skills are an integral part of landing team selling too. So you’ll want to find team members for your sales team that are knowledgeable but also effective communicators.
Personality mixes also come into play. A great dynamic involves building off what team members are saying. It’s “yes and”-ing each other. It’s demonstrating chemistry. So be sure all team members have the skills and personalities to complement one another along the way.
3) Set Well Defined Roles
The team lead is in charge of establishing the goals of the meeting and setting the agenda. So they need to understand the buyer’s journey and your companies sales cycle. And they need to know what it takes to push the needle towards buy-in.
That’s why the lead should always be the sales rep. All pre- and post-pitch communication should move through the sales reps. And during the sales meeting, it should be the sales rep that controls the flow of the presentation and the overall sales process.
Your sales performance depends on this level of clarity in your team.
You should also set expectations for other team members. In most cases, they’ll be there to field questions related to their expertise, chime in on opportunities to add value and help uncover buried buyer needs.
4) Get On the Same Page As Your Team Members
Nothing inspires less confidence than when team members step all over each other. Corrections, confusion, and chaos indicate disorganization. And a buyer will go running for the hills if they catch a whiff of ineptitude.
That’s why it’s crucial to get team members up to speed early in the process. Brief them on the company and all the pertinent details about what they do. Rehearse the presentation multiple times beforehand. Finally, ensure everyone’s familiar with the demo technology you’ll be using.
Team selling is supposed to make closing complex deals simpler. But without proper preparation and communication, it can turn a sure thing into a downright disaster.
Earn More Wins With Team Selling
Team selling is a scalable, effective way to win bigger deals and drive more revenue from your meetings. Sure, it can take quite a bit more of a resource investment to work together with your colleagues. But when you leverage the expertise of multiple team members, you’re inspiring confidence, demonstrating professionalism, and (best of all) better helping your buyer solve their problems.
Follow the four points above when implementing a team selling model in your business and go close deals with your decision makers easier than ever before.
Finally, remember the core principles of selling still apply to every deal. All that’s changing is the number of people in your sales teams.
7 Sales Interview Questions & Answers That Will Get You The Job
Nov 19, 2021
If there’s one event that’s always a given when advancing your sales career, it’s sitting through an interview.
Whether it’s your first sales role or your dream position, nailing the interview is key to moving up. And same as with sales meetings, a successful interview is all about preparation.
So, what can you do to prepare?
Expert Note:
“A lot of sales people take a job that's given or offered to them. To any salesperson of any position listening to this, next time you're looking for a sales role, take the time to be more picky. Don't jump on the first person that gives you an interview. Choose the right product, because they need you as much as you need them.”
Daniel Disney
Social Selling Show
One of the best ways to wow recruiters and clinch the sales job is to come up with answers to the most common sales interview questions beforehand.
This guide covers some of the most common interview questions for sales reps. And along the way, we’ll be looking at a few tips on coming up with the best answers as well as examples you can learn from.
Pre-Interview Preparations
Before hopping into the seven sales interview questions, it’s important to remember that interviews are won and lost on Preparation below. So be sure to follow sales interview tips beforehand to ensure the best chances of success.
Do Your Research – An sales representative that proves they’ve done their due diligence is already a step ahead of the rest in the mind of the hiring manager. Learn more about the company and, if you can, the interviewer. Study their product line in-depth and get a sense of how they’re received in the market. Examine competitors and what they’re doing right. Even in interviews, knowledge is power.
Create Your 30-60-90 Day Sales Plan – Your goal of this interview should be to prove you’re an exceptional salesperson. And developing a 30-60-90 Day Sales Plan does just that. This plan outlines exactly how you plan on achieving success during your first three months on the job. Done well; it’ll impress interviewers and tip the scale in your favor.
Come With Your Own Interview Questions To Ask – This one is vital. Few things raise a recruiter’s critical eyebrow, like applicants that don’t ask questions. A thoughtful question indicates you’re interested in the company and role. But it also shows you’re active listening ability. Ask about their current sales team, the culture, quotas, and more. But above all else, ask something.
Get In the Right Headspace – Beyond the typical pre-interview advice (get a good night’s sleep, exercise to relieve stress, remember to eat, etc.), you’ll want to think of your interview as a sales meeting. If you can’t sell yourself, then how will your employer know you can sell their products?
Sales Interview Questions & Answers to Prepare for
When it comes time for the big day, there are a few common sales interview questions recruiters will ask sales candidates. And the more prepared you are to answer them, the better your odds for winning the position.
Below are seven of the most common sales position interview questions. You’ll also find some example answers on how to answer that’ll help you stand out as an ideal candidate and get started in a career in sales.
1) Describe Your Sales Experience For Me
Winning Tip: This is a great time to share work experience as well as earned accolades. Complex numbers work wonders, and you should highlight any specific distinctions you’ve acquired throughout your career.
If you’re starting, be upfront about it, of course. But be sure to build on that by letting them know why you’re excited about this position and any experiences outside of work that make you a great sales candidate.
Examples:
“I earned the distinction of top salesperson for five years running at my past position.”
“I exceeded my quota by 20% in my first year at [former employer].”
“While I don’t have any direct experience in sales, I was president of the debate club and the head of fundraising in college. I’ve also wanted to work for [recruiter’s business] for years.”
2) What’s Your Primary Motivation On the Job?
Winning Tip: You’ll want to steer clear of financial reasons alone (“It pays the bills”). Instead, the answer to this sales interview question should tie your motivations to a beneficial character trait you possess. Keep things positive too. For example, while competition can be a helpful motivator, you don’t want to come off as someone who’ll do anything to get ahead, especially if you’re a part of a larger sales team.
Examples:
“I love the fact that positions like these have a direct payoff for hard work and strategic thinking. I thrive under that type of structure, and it motivates me to try to get better at what I do continually.”
“Rather than just wanting to make a sale, I get a lot of satisfaction out of solving a client’s problems. If they have an issue that’s holding them back from growing, I’m in a position to help them solve it. And that’s always been a rewarding experience.”
3) How Do You Think Our Company Can Improve?
Winning Tip: This is where your research and your 30-60-90 Day Sales Plan come in handy. Your sales plan is ofren the quickest way to a hiring mangers heart.
A strong sales plan shows a sales manager that you can work with team members, you know the steps to close a deal, the company culture and how to set sales goals.
You can also outline your previous sales plans and your track record in realising them in your prior sales positions. This is your opportunity to turn the interview process on it's head and have sales managers trying to close you!
Cite specifics here. What are you bringing to the table besides just being another body on the sales team? Is it organizational experience that you can apply to their current sales process? Are there any gaps in their marketing strategy you noticed during your research?
Be thoughtful and constructive here.
Examples:
“I noticed your social media presence is a bit lacking. This might be why you’re having problems attracting a core demographic and keeping them engaged over the long-term.”
“In my years at [previous employer], I developed and refined a series of sales cadences that worked particularly well among your target audience.”
4) Describe Your Best Memory of Making a Sale
Winning Tip: A great route to take here is mentioning a time when you overcame serious challenges while closing a deal. It could be when you convinced a whale client to switch legacy vendors, a lead was particularly hesitant but came around, a competitor swooped in and almost took the sale, etc. The point is to show that you’re resilient and enjoy going the extra mile to close the deal.
Example:
“My best memory of making a sale was when a considerable buyer just wasn’t convinced we were the vendor for them. Though our sales meeting was scheduled for just one hour, I spent the entire morning with them answering questions, describing use cases, and demoing the products.
I wanted them to know I was passionate about helping them achieve success. And eventually, they realized I wasn’t there just to make a sale—I was there to solve their problem. We closed on the deal that day.”
5) What’s the Biggest Mistake You Made During a Sale?
Winning Tip: Honesty is essential here. Humble brags (“I was too attentive to their needs” etc.) come off inauthentic and off-putting. Instead, think of a time you didmess up. And finish the story with how you rectified that mistake or implemented the lesson you learned from it.
Example:
“I remember one sales meeting; I spent far too much time talking about our product features rather than the benefits. As a result, at the end of what I thought was an incredibly educational meeting, the buyers still didn’t know they would get value from our product.
In our follow-up exchanges, I made sure to tailor my language to focus on how those features provide tangible value. And eventually, they changed their minds and signed on!”
6) Have You Ever Been on a Sales Team You Didn’t Like? Why?
Winning Tip: This one is meant to throw you off. And answered inappropriately; it can be a dealbreaker. You’ll want to avoid especially harsh statements here. For example, describing your old team as “lazy, dimwitted, and annoying” may be true. But they reflect on you negatively and make you come off as judgmental or hard to work with.
Instead, try to highlight business-related problems and, specifically, what you did to help overcome those problems.
Example:
“At my previous employer, our sales team was consistently falling short of our monthly goals. And despite being a fantastic motivator, our manager wasn’t particularly good at problem-solving. So it was left to the reps to define and refine our own sales processes to meet our numbers.
After I developed a successful process, I shared what I learned with the team, and we closed more deals than ever.”
7) Sell Me This Pen
Winning Tip: You’ll inevitably run into the classic “sell me this pen” question at some point in your selling career. And what you choose to focus on here is critical. Rather than starting out with all the features and benefits of the pen you can possibly think of, try starting with active listening. Figure out what problem they’re trying to solve first. And only then move into the pitch.
Example:
“I’d like to know if you’ve used a pen in the past. What about it did you like? What did you hate? How are you going to be using this pen? What’s your ballpark price range for what you’d like to spend on a pen?
Based on what you’ve told me, it looks like this pen is the perfect way to achieve [repeat their goals for using the pen]. Here’s why.”
Proper Preparation = Better Chances of Getting the Job
Whether it’s your dream role at your ideal employer or simply the first step to your perfect career, you can nail your interview and land the position. It just takes a bit of preparation and knowing how to show recruiters that you’re the candidate they’ve been looking for.
So study these seven sales interview questions and start coming up with your strategic answers. When you do, you’ll be better prepared to sell yourself as the sales superstar you know you are.
Half Of Businesses Report They Can’t Rely On CRM Data?!
Nov 16, 2021
On this week in sales we’ll be looking at; Turning sales strategy into execution, half of businesses reporting they can’t rely on their CRM, How the show is going to evolve next week and more!
You'll learn:
Sales news:
Highspot and Corporate Visions Partner to Help Customers Turn Sales Strategy into Execution
Highspot, the sales enablement platform that improves sales performance, today announced an expanded partnership with Corporate Visions, the leading provider of science-backed training and consulting services. Joint customers can now use the first-of-its-kind Highspot Marketplace to bring Corporate Visions' expertise directly into their Highspot environments, providing teams with convenient access to best-in-class enablement, training and coaching to drive consistent sales execution.
The Hype About Data-Driven Decision-Making Is Not Being Matched By Reality
Sovan Bin, the CEO, enterprise data platform Odaseva. – “Clearly, for too many companies, the hype about data-driven decision-making is not being matched by reality.”
“More than three-quarters of large enterprises admit that they’re lacking fundamentals in data management, and this is preventing them from unlocking the full value of their CRM”
Forrester –
Found that 78 percent of enterprises report gaps in their data management that prevent them taking full advantage of their data
64 percent said they find it challenging to actually move CRM data to platforms where it could be valuably used
47 percent feel they cannot rely on their CRM data to provide a single source of truth regarding customer data.
ValueSelling Associates Welcomes Rishi Dhawan and Expands Sales Training Presence in India, Southeast Asia and the Middle East
Based in Gurgaon, India, Rishi has over 20 years of global experience as a business leader at prominent tech companies, where he was known for developing high-performing sales teams and delivering winning results. Working with CXOs and sales leadership across industry verticals.
TalSuccess, a leading talent transformation service provider, today announced the launch of a partnership with Richardson Sales Performance, a global leader in sales training and performance improvement. TalSuccess will deliver sales training and performance improvement programs of Richardson Sales Performance in India.
Sales Force Optimization: The Secret to Long-Term Selling Success
Nov 10, 2021
You have a good sales process in place. Prospecting, lead qualification, closing deals… everything is clearly laid out, and your sales team follows it to the T.
You're doing well, but you know they can get more prospects and win more deals—they can be more.
So what's the issue? Where's the loophole?
It's your sales process—or more specifically, it's your stagnant sales process.
Expert Note:
Sales is an outcome, not a goal. It's a function of doing numerous things right, starting from the moment you target a potential prospect until you finalize the deal.
Jill Konrath
Salesman Podcast
You cannot just “set and forget” your sales process. You have to update it regularly according to your customers' changing requirements and preferences.
This is where sales force optimization comes into the picture.
Sales force optimization ensures your sales process stays dynamic. It involves figuring out what's working and what isn't with your current sales strategy and then fine-tuning your sales process to win more long-term customers.
What Is Sales Optimization?
To create a world-class sales organization, you need three things:
The right people on the right jobs in the right territory
Lean and effective sales and sales management processes
Regular sales training to polish and update selling skills
Sales optimization involves improving and refining all the above three factors. It's the process of helping you maximize sales performance and increase close rates.
You analyze past customer interactions and sales data and then use the insights to sell more effectively and manage future sales incentives.
TAMI (formerly known as SalesOptimize) hired Simon Drew as the sales manager to scale their sales function.
Upon auditing the sales process, Simon quickly identified the company's biggest challenge: finding quality prospects and opportunities. While TAMI's sales team had an endless list of contacts to target, they didn't know how to process them. In addition, reps were also having a hard time handling a large volume of prospects.
Simon decided to build a team of business development reps, who would carry out all sales functions. This included prospecting, sending follow-ups, demoing, sending proposal follow-ups, negotiating… the whole shebang.
Simon and his team then realized the workflow was still manual, inefficient, and clunky. It's why they decided to introduce a sales engagement solution into their system to streamline workflows and reduce sales tech stack costs.
The result? TAMI's reps are currently executing 3,400-4,900 activities each month, 5x the original 1,000-1,400 activities. Also, the productivity skyrocketed to more than 300%!
Modifying and refining your workflows can optimize your sales process—just like how it helped Simon and his team.
6 Strategies to Optimize Sales Process
Examining sales processes, sales culture, and establishing an effective communication strategy is an excellent place to start optimizing your sales performance.
There are six steps to increase sales force optimization:
Building ICP
Defining Goals
Fine-Tuning Sales Pipeline
Analyzing Sales Data
Automating Sales
Reducing Churn Rate
Read on as we cover the six best strategies to help you implement effective sales force optimization.
#1 Build an Ideal Customer Profile
Building an ideal customer profile or buyer persona is critical for effective prospecting. This way, you can get past demographics and dive deeper into buying behaviors and emotional characteristics, such as:
Feelings and emotions that will trigger them to buy
Creating buyer personas is particularly effective. Having a fictional characterization of your ideal customer puts a face to details. This will help your sales team understand the kind of leads they should pursue, boosting sales productivity.
#2 Define Your Long-Term Goals
In the words of Brian Tracy, “goals allow you to control the direction of change in your favor.”
This is why ignoring quick wins and establishing long-term goals is the only sustainable way to increase sales.
Align your professionals to deliver optimal revenue from the market they prospect.
You have to prioritize creating the right sales culture. For instance, you should celebrate long-term milestones like upsells instead of emphasizing short-term goals like hitting monthly quotas.
We aren't saying that meeting quotas shouldn't be appreciated, but the priority should be long-term milestones that support long-term growth.
Take LinkedIn, for example. One of the company's core values is to “act like an owner. “This is an excellent initiative to empower employees and encourage them to behave and make decisions as it was their company.
At the same time, your sales goals should be laser-focused on quality.
Let's understand what we mean by laser-focused on quality.
Bad Goal: To double the number of leads
Better Goal: To double the number of leads per month by December 2025.
This gives you a clear deadline for achieving a realistic goal. Having a clear goal will better help you understand what needs to be done. Plus, a little pressure doesn't hurt most salespeople's performance.
#3 Identify and Remove Bottlenecks and Leaks in Your Sales Pipeline.
You want to create the “perfect “pipeline. But before getting there, you'll have to pinpoint bottlenecks and leaks in your sales process.
A bottleneck is when a phase of your sales process is “jammed. For example, “Your leads and prospects get stuck in Stage 1 and never move forward to Stage 2.
To make matters worse, bottlenecks are time-sensitive. So the longer your leads and prospects remain stuck in your funnel, the more challenging it'll become to convert them.
On the other hand, leaks only occur when there's a significant drop off in your conversion rate from one stage of your sales funnel to the next. For instance, if your sales team is good at qualifying leads but cannot move most of them past the demo, it's a leak.
Leaks can be because of technical problems or communication breakdowns between your reps and leads. They can be attributed to bottlenecks in some instances too.
You can fix bottlenecks and leave by analyzing long-term sales data. Consider the following questions:
How long does it take for you to close a deal on average?
How long do your prospects and leads spend time in the different phases of your sales pipeline?
Identify and break down all the low points of your sales process, and then devise a plan of attack to remove any inefficiencies in your sales funnel.
#4 Track and Analyze Relevant Sales Data
Tracking and analyzing data is a critical aspect of sales force optimization.
Expert Note:
“If you're a manager listening to this, stop tracking prospecting volume. I know you're probably thinking ‘my reps are lazy'. Here's what you need to track, track your prospecting efficiency. See how many touches it takes for a rep to get a meeting and track that number religiously.”
Ryan O’Hara
Salesman Podcast
It'll provide you access to valuable metrics related to your sales process, including what needs doing and what has already been done.
We highly recommend tracking sales data with reliable tools to simplify tasks. For instance, HubSpot Sales Hub is a powerful CRM that has robust sales analytics. It can be your single source of truth to boost unprecedented sales efficiency.
#5 Leverage the Power of Sales Tools and Sales Automation
Repetitive tasks are dull, tedious, and time-consuming. The only thing they do is kill productivity. For context, an average salesperson spends two-thirds of their time on busy work, AKA activities that don't bring any value to prospects or help advance deals to closure.
Basically, useless stuff.
You need to streamline workflow and optimize sales performance. And the only way to do that is by eliminating redundant or unnecessary tasks. You should also ask your sales management to provide the right sales tools to automate any repetitive processes.
Create a sales stack that tells you who and when to call and what content to present to improve sales execution, sales automation, and sales excellence.
You can then use the free time to focus on core selling activities.
#6 Lower Your Churn Rate
Aiming to get more customers is excellent. But this shouldn't be at the cost of your current customers.
Did you know acquiring a new customer is five times costlier than retaining the ones you already have? So when you lower your churn rate, not only do you optimize your sales, but you also ensure more money in your pocket.
Talk about killing two birds with one stone.
But how do you achieve this?
Adopting customer relationship marketing principles is a good starting point to reduce your churn rate. You should frequently check in with your customers to provide post-sales support, but more importantly, understand what solutions they might be looking for in the future.
In sales, relationships, personalization, and customer retention are interconnected. Having meaningful conversations can go a long way in helping you understand what your customers truly want, build long-lasting relationships, and become a better sales professional.
Whether you're new to the industry or an experienced salesperson, it's vital to have a firm grasp of the basic principles of selling.
Failing to adhere to these essential sales principles means you risk losing prospects and sales.
This guide will take you through the fundamental rules for successful selling and explain what you should (and shouldn't be doing) if you want to close more deals.
Basic Principles of Selling
1) Do Your Research
One of the essential principles of selling is that you should always be fully prepared for each conversation you have with a prospect. That means doing the proper research and planning every time and adding this to your sales process.
Find out what your prospect's organization does, how they do it, and why. Then, build a complete understanding of what drives them, as well as what challenges they may face. By doing so, you can make a personalized pitch to each prospect that caters to their most essential needs and challenges.
2) Don't Just Talk – Be An Active Listener
Traditional sales training often misses the fact that conversations need to go both ways – which means you need to listen, not just talk.
Sure, the more you listen to your prospect, the better you can understand them. This will help you to meet the prospect's needs more effectively.
But to get the prospect to open up, you have to ask questions as well.
Pay attention to what the prospect is most interested in, what drives them, and their biggest challenges. Hone in on what matters most to them.
Using active listening also helps to show your prospect that you value their time and what they have to say. This, in turn, allows you to form a deeper connection with your prospect, laying the groundwork for a productive business relationship.
3) Sell As A Person To A Person
This principle of successful sales builds on the last sales rule: your aim is to create a relationship with your prospect, not just pitch to them.
Remember that you're dealing with another person, not some faceless corporation – you need to get them to trust you and respect you personally.
Connecting with the buyer on a more personal level makes it easier to communicate effectively, build a better understanding of what they need, and provide a solution to them, thereby closing the sale.
Make sure you pay close attention to your prospect's personality, behavior and know how to moderate your behavior accordingly. Read the prospect's cues and understand which situations call for professionalism and which call for a more personal touch.
4) Remember That Your Reputation Precedes You
For modern salespeople, reputation is a key.
The first thing that almost any prospect will do when you reach out to them is to find out who you are, so you need to work to develop a reputation that makes them more interested in speaking with you.
In the digital ans social media age, both you and your company are only a Google search away. So you need to ensure that your online presence conveys trustworthiness and expertise, which in turn builds credibility.
Marketing content that features you and client testimonials are two effective measures you can take to build this reputation and create better relationships.
5) Lead With Value & Insight
The strongest way to start your conversations with new a new potential customer is by showing real insights into what they do, the challenges they face, and how you can help them solve these issues.
In doing so, you can begin to demonstrate the value of your product or service to the prospect.
Remember, your prospect isn't there to learn about your product – what they really want is to find solutions to their problems. As such, you need to be clear about how you provide solutions, and in turn, provide value.
6) Center On Prospect, Not Your Product
Focusing on your prospect rather than the product is similar to the last point, but it's worth reiterating. Your prospect isn't interested in your product; the buyer is interested in how it can change their organsiation.
Everything you say should therefore center on the prospect, not on your product.
Instead of simply walking the prospect through your product's features, focus on the specific parts that offer the most benefit to them and explain clearly what value this provides. Keep their unique needs and challenges in mind at all times, and tailor all your communications accordingly.
Don't just waffle about your product without purpose; make sure everything you say has a clear point, and ensure that that point is directly relevant to the prospect's interests.
7) Nip Potential Issues In The Bud
Understanding the principles of selling means understanding that not every prospect will have a straight line from start to close.
Often there will be several issues or concerns that you'll need to address before you can make a successful sale. You need to anticipate these issues and deal with them early on rather than waiting for the prospect to bring them up.
The sooner you can solve these issues, the better. Leaving them unaddressed increases the chances that they can derail the sale further down the line, at which point you'll have wasted time and resources on an unsuccessful deal.
8) Sell Yourself, Not Just Your Product
It might be a specific product or service that you're trying to influence a prospect to buy; you're also selling yourself. Most prospects aren't just looking for a standalone product; they also want a partner they can continue to work with even after the sale is made.
You need to sell yourself (and your company) as well as your products and services. That means demonstrating that you're a professional, knowledgeable, and helpful advisor who the prospect can rely on for support throughout the entire process and beyond.
On a personal level, selling yourself means making yourself engaging, empathetic, and responsive to build an effective relationship with the prospect. On a professional level, it means creating an understanding of the prospect and demonstrating that your company has the necessary expertise to provide valuable solutions.
9) Create Data
Another key aspect of the sales basics is that it's not enough to address sales on a case-by-case basis – you also need to widen your view to look at the bigger picture.
Blindly running from one prospect to the next without pausing to reflect and evaluate is a recipe for disaster; for truly successful selling, you'll need to analyze the broader trends within your sales pipeline.
Collect data wherever possible and use it to provide a fuller picture of your sales processes. For example, identify which stages of your sales pipeline are weakest and strongest and how you can replicate success stories.
10) Maintain Momentum With Clear Next Steps
Your sales pipeline thrives on momentum, so it's essential to keep prospects moving along it rather than stalling and losing interest.
At the end of every meeting or conversation, you need to lay out clear next steps – ideally, you need to ensure your next appointment is organized before the end of your current one.
Establishing a framework of the next steps ensures that your prospects are always progressing along the sales pipeline, not simply running in circles.
11) Retaining Customers Is More Important Than Obtaining Them
Remember, once you've made a successful sale, your job isn't over. You now have to work to keep your client happy to keep them buying from you and contributing towards your sales quota.
Building a reliable, loyal client base is the key to smashing sales targets. So pay as much attention to your established clients as your new prospects. Always look to go above and beyond what they expect from you – you're there to support them, not just make the sale and disappear.
You should solve any problems or queries they have quickly and effectively and look for opportunities to provide them with added value.
12) Don't Be Afraid To Give Up
One of the essential principles of selling is to acknowledge that sometimes, you won't be able to make a sale.
Even the best salesperson can't guarantee a 100% success rate – some prospects will inevitably go cold, and you won't be able to close them.
The key is to recognize when this is the case and be prepared to redirect your efforts elsewhere rather than wasting time and resources. So keep a close eye on your sales pipeline, and be aware of any prospects that have stalled or stagnated. Then, carefully evaluate whether it's worth continuing to pursue them or whether your time would be better spent on other, more active prospects.
Conclusion
These sales rules are not exhaustive, but they should give you a foundation on which to build your sales career.
The key to successful selling is to master the fundamentals – more advanced methods may be appealing, but they will mean nothing if you don't have the sales basics perfected first.
How To Become An Inbound Closer: Everything You Need To Know
Nov 01, 2021
A few years back, hard-hitting sales tactics were all the rage. Salespeople relied on bulk emails and cold calls to close deals.
These days, customers have rejected these outdated sales tactics and prefer to build relationships with the businesses they are buying from. As a result, the industry has shifted towards a new way of selling: inbound sales.
What Is Inbound Sales?
Inbound sales is a modern approach to sales that focuses on the potential buyer. In traditional sales strategies, the salesperson would focus on pushing the product or service and closing the deal.
In inbound sales, the inbound closer hones in on the prospective buyer's priorities, pain points, interests, and challenges. The inbound closer must educate, guide, and support the prospective buyer throughout the buying decision.
Who Is an Inbound Closer?
A closer is a person responsible for finalizing a sales deal with a client. These are usually high ticket sales that are sold on phone calls. As a sales closer, you are responsible for finding prospects and sales leads and convincing them to sign a contract.
An inbound closer is a sales closer who works in inbound sales.
As an inbound closer, your focus is not on closing the deal as fast as possible. Instead, you spend your time nurturing the prospective buyer by interacting, guiding, and educating them throughout the buyer journey.
Inbound closing requires you to become a trusted consultant who nurtures the client relationship from awareness and consideration to closing the deal and beyond.
What Is the Difference Between Inbound and Outbound Sales?
Inbound sales is a business model that focuses on attracting leads that are already interested in your product or service. These are the easiest high ticket leads to close a deal with. You then build lasting relationships with these leads and help them solve their problems.
In outbound sales, you engage all potential buyers before you know for sure that they need your product.
In outbound sales, you go out of your way to make direct contact with potential buyers and start a conversation about your products or services. Because you are the one initiating the conversation, outbound sales give you control over how you reach out, when you reach out, and who you reach out to.
In inbound sales, you let the customer find you and your high ticket product. Here is how that goes.
Let's say, Harry, the customer has a problem. So Harry goes online and researches his problem. He finds a blog post you have written about their pain and realizes that your company is the solution they have been seeking.
Harry then contacts your company to ask for more information. By doing so, he has shown you that he is interested in your products or services and has given you a crucial opportunity to close the sale.
Inbound sales is an effective way of selling because it allows the customer to come to you. Customers like to research before making a purchase. If you can find a way to inform or educate the potential customer before you speak with them, you will build trust and set the pace for a lasting and mutually beneficial relationship.
Why Inbound Sales Matter
So, why are inbound sales so important? Here are a few advantages of inbound sales:
1. Inbound sales save time
As an inbound closer, you don't have to do massive research because you allow potential customers to come to you to discuss your product or service rather than trying to chase them. This is why this business model of inbound closing leveraging inbound calls is so effective.
Because your leads are already familiar with your business by the time they reach out to you, you don't have to do a lot of explaining about your high ticket product. You no longer waste time making a cold call to get the prospect on the phone.
Moreover, because you are dealing with warm leads who are already ready to buy, you don't have to waste your time talking to people who have no interest in making a purchase.
2. Inbound sales save money
The more time you spend trying to convince leads to make a purchase, the more money and resources you use in the buyer journey.
Since inbound sales take less time to close, they help you save the money you would otherwise have used in outbound sales.
3. Inbound sales have more potential for growth
Inbound sales can scale effectively. With outbound sales, businesses have to hire more sales closers to bolster their sales strategy. However, with a high ticket inbound sales team, companies only have to streamline their marketing and advertising approach.
Even better, the assets that are developed through an inbound sales strategy are reasonably permanent. This permanence means that they will continue to give value to your business long after you have created them.
4. Genuine customer interest
One of the main benefits of inbound sales is that your leads genuinely care about what you have to say.
Think about how the outbound sales process works. You call someone randomly and try to convince them that you have something they need. Even if you have already researched them and know that they are part of your target audience, the customer has not considered their needs before your call. Therefore, it will be more difficult for you to convince them they need a product they have not thought of before.
Conversely, with inbound sales, the customer discovered your brand through their own research. They already know they have a problem and are reaching out to you because they believe you have the solution. In addition, they are genuinely interested in who you are and what you do.
5. Better relationships and higher trust
By the time a lead reaches out to you for more information, they already have some level of trust in your brand.
As an inbound closer, you act as a consultative expert and help such leads gain more trust in your business.
Building trust with your customers is vital for creating good customer relationships. As a result, your customers will begin their relationships with your business on the right foot, and they will be more likely to become loyal customers of your brand.
Better trust with your clients translates to better communication, increased sales, and higher customer lifetime value.
Now that you know how critical inbound sales are to modern business owners, you must be wondering how you can dip your toes into this world. In the next section of this blog post, we will look at how to become an inbound closer.
How to Become an Inbound Closer
The first step you take to become a successful inbound closer is to develop the characteristics that make for a great salesperson a fantastic inbound closer. Here are several qualities that you must have to become a great sales closer:
A. A desire to build relationships
As an inbound closer, clients will view you more as a partner than a salesperson. For this reason, you should always be striving to create solid relationships with potential customers.
For instance, you should always follow up with emails containing industry-specific information. You should also share tips that will help the buyer in the buying decision.
As your relationship with a client solidifies, you want your client to see you as a consultant or resource. Once a customer trusts your judgment, it becomes easier for you to maintain the relationship.
B. A focus on customer needs
The inbound sales process is all about the customer. Who they are, what they need, their expectations, and their problems.
As an inbound closer, you must strive to identify and focus on what your client needs. How well you understand your client's needs could make the difference between closing a sale and losing a potential customer who would otherwise have made a purchase.
With a solid knowledge of your customer's needs, you are better positioned to help them see how your products or services solve their problems.
C. A mindset focused on value
To be a successful sales closer, you must learn to focus on value. In some cases, especially if you're working a high ticket sales job, you will not always have the lowest prices. Therefore, you must focus on the value that your products or services are providing to your clients.
When talking of value, you must help your potential customers see what they get for purchasing your product and what they are losing by not using your product.
D. Ability to listen before you sell
Your success as an inbound closer will largely depend on your ability to listen. Communication skills are key for a high ticket closer. Instead of assuming, you must start by listening to potential customers to learn why they buy and how the buying process works. You could also go a step further and take notes so you can use them for subsequent meetings.
Then you need a killer high ticket, inbound closer business model to start converting your inbound calls into real money.
How to Create a Killer High Ticket Inbound Sales Strategy
1. Automate the process
Remember, inbound sales work well because they allow the customer to come to you. This means that you must automate the beginning stages of your sales journey by eliminating the manual tasks, so your clients can better reach out to you.
2. Use a multi-channel approach
Everyone in inbound sales has a different idea of what works best. However, there is no one-size-fits-all when it comes to the best strategy for inbound sales. As such, it is better to use a multi-channel approach.
With a multi-channel approach, you can reap the benefits of all the channels you use. Some of the strategies you can consider using include paid advertisements, social media marketing, content marketing, influencer marketing, and SEO.
3. Simplify your message
Simple messages are effective.
Instead of bombarding your potential client with a long list of all the benefits your product offers, choose a few and mention them. Again, a simplified message comes down to your ability to listen keenly and identify your buyer's needs.
When you know your client's pain points, you can select a few benefits of your products to help solve those problems and mention them. This way, you position your products and services as precisely what your client needs.
4. Test and optimize conversation rates
As an inbound closer, you must make it easier for potential clients to reach out to you. If it's easy to contact you, more people will do it. One of the ways you can make it easy for people to contact you is to use prominent CTAs and simple, short forms to collect personal information about clients.
A good CTA and proper methods of collecting data are the cornerstones of a good conversion rate optimization strategy.
Final Word
As an inbound closer, you will be responsible for finalizing deals with clients who have already shown interest in your company's product without being sold to. This means that you will mainly be dealing with warm leads and selling them high ticket products.
Remember that even though these leads have researched the problem and think your products or services can help them, they have not yet finalized their decision to purchase. Therefore, you must be patient with the clients. Follow up, encourage, and direct them all through the buyer's journey and finally persuade them to close the deal.
At the end of the day, your ability to close deals will determine how successful you are as an inbound closer. Your communication skills are what is going to help you make money here.
What are your thoughts on becoming an inbound closer? Is it a position you would consider working in? Please share your thoughts in the comments section below.
How To Sell Without Selling: 6 Tips To Stop Being So Salesy
Oct 27, 2021
Sales professionals are advised to “avoid being too salesy “or “learn how to be less salesy.” Regardless of how ironic it sounds, this is good advice.
In their book Never Be Closing, authors Tim Hurson and Tim Dunne explain how the majority of sales tactics are designed to sell to strangers with the sole purpose of “wrangling a commitment to buy, even when buying may not be in the best interests of the client. ”
Times have changed. Effective selling today is different—it's better, cleaner, and more empathetic. No dirty tricks. No salesy methods.
So let's take a look at what it means to be salesy and how you can stop those behaviours too.
Salesy Meaning
Salesy is a term to describe a salesperson who pitches their product or service aggressively and superficially to the point of making the prospect uncomfortable, unresponsive, or annoyed.
A salesy sales professional isn't interested in learning and solving their prospect's pain points or challenges. As a result of their self-centric sales pitches and self-absorbed blabber, these reps hardly convert their prospects into paying customers.
How To Be Less Salesy 101: Avoid Common' Salesy' Sales Terms
Only 17% of salespeople think they are pushy, which is in sharp contrast to the 50% of prospects who consider sales reps to be pushy when they engage with them.
Before we deep dive further into the art of selling without being too pushy, you should know just how salesy you are—if at all. One of the best ways to determine this is by analyzing the words and phrases you use in your pitch.
Expert Note:
“The fastest, quickest way to get away from that being perceived as a pushy salesperson who just wants to reach into my pocket, is that you've asked me a question, or you've somehow demonstrated that you care about me and you're interested in where I want to go and what's important to me.”
Deb Calvert
Salesman Podcast
Below, we've compiled a list of some of the most common salesy words and phrases. Start working on your pitch right away if you find more than one word or phrase matching your current one.
A: “Once-in-a-lifetime Opportunity”
Buyers today are intelligent and well-informed. They know whenever a sales rep uses phrases like a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity, it certainly isn't a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity for their business.
If you address your buyers with heavy marketing like this, stop right now. Otherwise, you won't be winning their trust anytime soon. You're selling a product, not building a cult. Focus on adding value, listen to the buyer and share the real benefits.
B: “Cheap”
Many sales reps believe that cramming their pitch with the word “cheap” will help them capture the prospect's interest faster. Newsflash: it won't.
When you use the word cheap too much while pitching, prospects lose interest. They assume your companies product or service is of low quality and may end up not buying it.
C: “Trust me”
Your prospects will only trust you once you earn their trust over time—definitely not when you ask them to do so passive-aggressively. Further, if you use this in response to a prospect question, it'll come off as condescending and evasive. #Fail
D: “To be honest… “
So you had been lying up until this point?
“To be honest” is an insidious phrase, and therefore, one giant red flag for savvy buyers. You were presumably honest during the whole conversation, so why call it out now? Cut this phrase out of your vocabulary if you want to win credibility with prospects.
E: “Guarantee”
Nothing is guaranteed, so when you tend to “guarantee “every single claim, the prospect knows you're overpromising. It's like a trap that makes you lose credibility, and in turn, your prospect's interest. Avoid it.
F: “Features”
As mentioned, salesy salespeople have a self-centric mindset. This mindset is evident when they pitch their product: they cannot stop bragging about its unbelievable features.
The thing is, prospects aren't interested in your product features. Instead, the buyer wants to know how your product will benefit them and help solve their challenges.
G: “Buy”
Shocker, right?
Using the word “buy” does nothing to persuade the prospect to place an order. People hate being sold to, so when you ask them to buy your product or service, they'll decline instinctively.
Using positive and less demanding words like “invest “or “own “makes a much better impact. For instance, people like to “own” things that make their life easier. Similarly, they don't mind “investing “in a solution that gives them their desired returns.
Do you see the difference?
H: “I want to/ I like to/ I love to”
If there's anything your sales pitch should have little to no mention of, it's “I”—or what you want.
Sales are all about the customers, which is why your pitches should be about your products solving their problems. There is no reason for you to mention what you want or prefer. They won't care.
Think about how you can provide value and build a healthy relationship with the prospect to become a better salesperson. Adopting a consultative sales approach that guides the prospect to address the ongoing business problem is a good starting point.
6 Tips To Help You Avoid Being a Salesy Seller
Successful salespeople focus on helping—not selling. But, if you don't stop being salesy, you'll lose lucrative opportunities and leads. Here are a few tips to help you become non-salesy and close more deals.
#1: Know Your Prospect's Needs and Challenges
Ideally, you want to create a win-win situation. In turn, this will help you establish and nurture a healthy relationship with the prospect.
Make your prospect comfortable by holding meaningful conversations with them. Then try to figure out their needs and challenges.
Consider asking the following questions to get started on the right track:
What do you think is holding you back from achieving your business goals? Can you give me a background on this?
Can you elaborate on the current situation of the problem?
How much longer can you go without resolving the issue?
Do you think this problem is leading to other issues?
Are you looking for a solution to fix this problem? If yes, have you decided on a time frame to solve it?
These questions should (hopefully) help you understand the prospect's needs and challenges. Then, use the insights and tailor your pitch to talk about your solution from their context.
Remember the golden rule: listen more than you speak.
#2: Educate the Prospect
Salesy salespeople are pushy. They pressurize the prospect into buying your product or service when they should've been educating them.
Demonstrate your understanding of the prospect's current situation and then guide them on how your offering is the perfect solution to their pain points. Next, present your product or service smartly, where the prospect can visualize the benefits of your solution.
#3: Sell a Transformation—Not a Product or Service
Your prospect doesn't care about your product or service. Instead, they care about what your service can do for the prospect and their organization.
When drafting marketing materials and writing your pitch, ask yourself: why should your clients care? Then, guide your marketing strategy based on your answer.
Most salespeople talk about what they're selling rather than why they're selling it. Don't fall into this trap. Instead, stay focused on the transformation that prospects can expect. You can even share client results and testimonials to make them even more relevant to them.
#4: Sell With Integrity
Selling with integrity means selling with the truth. This is where the law of reciprocity comes into play: you should give and not give to take. Read that again.
Following this school of thought will come in handy when serving people at the highest level. They've invested time and want to have a conversation with you. So don't be stingy with information. Instead, do the right thing and remain authentic, even when no one's paying attention.
Trust us; prospects notice everything.
#5: Speak About Them, Not You
Customers want to know how your product or service will affect them. Unfortunately, they don't want to hear about how your product or service affects you.
Make them the star and focus of your sales conversation. Always remember this simple point when conversing with prospects. This will help you become a more emphatic seller instead of salesy.
#6: Give Them Real-life Examples To Build Credibility
The best salespeople focus on earning the potential customers' trust. They don't lie. They give proof that whatever they are saying is true.
To earn your prospect's trust, you'll have to back your claims. And the best way to do so is by giving real-life examples. Share case studies of successful customer relationships and how your product or service helped your previous customers solve a problem similar to your current prospect.
Be explicit and clear when pitching, but never shift your focus away from the current prospect.
Master the Art of Effortless Selling
When you stop being salesy, you'll see a significant difference in your results.
Focus on asking the right questions and building a lasting relationship with your prospects. It'll help you create a good reputation and gather positive word-of-mouth publicity, ensuring you get more potential leads.
Will Barron
Will Barron is the founder of Salesman.org. He is an Apple award winning podcaster and on a mission to Make Selling Simple. Will’s flagship Selling Made Simple Academy training program has over 2,000 students who generate over $992m in new revenue each year.
The 4-Step Framework To More Effective Remote Selling
Oct 25, 2021
The world looks a lot different today than it did before 2020: the masks, the travel protocols, the hand sanitizers. But perhaps the most monumental change is the shift to remote work and remote sales.
A whopping 72% of white-collar workers report doing their jobs remotely these days. If you’re a professional salesperson, you’re probably one of them. And while you may have thought the shift was temporary at first, you’re likely starting to realize that remote selling is quickly becoming the new normal.
But how is remote selling affecting salespeople like you? What does remote selling mean? And how can you become world-class at doing it and learn to thrive from this massive shift?
This guide covers what remote selling is, some remote selling techniques and the pros and cons of this new world of sales. We also detail our four-step framework that shows you how to do remote sales as effectively as in-person ones.
What Is Remote Selling?
Also known as virtual selling, remote selling is selling your product or service to a buyer in a different location from you. It can be done over the phone, through video calls, or even through live chat (though rare).
While salespeople and buyers alike tended to prefer in-person sales meetings, the rise of covid has turned remote selling into the preferred method. Plus, it looks like remote work is becoming the norm for most companies.
Markets are adjusting, and new technologies are making the switch to remote selling easier. Even still, there are both pros and cons to this new medium in sales.
If you've not had sales training on how to sell remotely, then keep reading.
Pros & Cons of Remote Selling
As with any monumental change in the sales process, the shift to selling remotely and online meetings has its ups and downs.
Pros
Zero Travel Time – Working from home means no more commute to the office. For you, that means a better work-life balance. On top of that, there’s less time wasted from in-person meetings (waiting for another party to show, navigating around the office, getting coffee, etc.).
Easier to Coordinate – Connecting with the buyer has never been easier, thanks to remote selling. It takes, on average, eight touches before a lead is ready to buy. And a sizeable chunk of those touches are live meetings. The easier it is to coordinate, the faster you can move them through the sales cycle towards a purchase decision.
Benefits of New Tech – Don’t be scared of all the new tech! There are plenty of benefits to these tools that you can use to make your job easier. Video conferencing software lets you record sales meetings for reference later or to pass on to the buyer. The digital nature of meetings enables you to patch in subject matter experts during a pitch for team selling and more effective closing. The wealth of your sales collateral collection is now at your fingertips at a moment’s notice. The list goes on, too.
Cons
Less of a “Feel” for the Buyer – Perhaps the biggest downside is that you and the buyer are missing out on some nonverbal communication—often the “je ne sais quoi” of selling. A small scrunch of the brow, tap-tap of their finger, widening of the eyes. They all go a long way towards getting a feel for the lead and knowing how to craft the pitch.
Seller Motivation May Be a Problem – Salespeople tend to be extroverts. We crave that personal connection. It gives us the energy we need to keep going. But the emotional disconnect of working within a remote sales team can make it harder for sales reps to stay motivated.
Harder to Grab & Hold Attention – It’s easy to get distracted at the computer. How many times have you found yourself switching over to Twitter in the midst of reading a boring report? That ability to check email, browse the web, or even do other work with just a click puts more pressure on salespeople to keep buyers focused during a call.
4-Step Framework For Effectively Selling Remotely
So, how do you amplify the benefits, shrink the downsides, and thrive working remotely in the new age of digital sales? You can start by following this four-step framework.
This framework covers remote selling best practices that are easy to implement and ensure your future success in this brave new world of business.
#1 Get the Right Equipment
The first step to becoming a remote selling master is making sure you have all the tools and equipment you need to do the job. Of course, your company will more than likely provide these tools for you. But even still, you’ll want to be sure you have the following if you’re going to be successful.
Team Communication Channels – Stay in touch with your colleagues and direct reports with Slack, Google Chat, and Discord.
CRM – More critical now than ever, make sure you’re equipped with the best CRM options like HubSpot, Salesforce, and Pipedrive.
Sales Enablement – Tools like HighSpot can deliver the right content for you to share with your customers at the right moment using AI and machine learning.
B) Hardware
Headphones – You’ll want to splurge for ones that are noise-canceling and comfortable so you can focus in your sales meetings no matter what your virtual work environment now consists of.
Microphone – Avoid Bluetooth if you can and opt for wired instead.
Lighting – You’re going to be on camera a lot. So if you lack natural light, find an LED panel so buyers can see you.
Webcam – Find an excellent high-definition webcam. It’s best to buy a separate one if the one on your computer isn’t great.
Internet – This is a must, of course. You’ll need a great high-speed connection since outages and laggy video will, without a doubt, lose you sales.
C) Home Office
Ergonomic Chair
Proper Desk
Proper Lighting
Laptop Stand
External Monitor
Reliable Keyboard & Mouse
#2 Grow Your Personality
There’s an inherent disconnect when talking over a video call compared to attending a sales meeting in person. It’s better than a plain old phone call, sure. But it’s harder to make a real, human connection when you’re staring at a bunch of pixels.
That’s why you need to grow your personality to create that connection. Get comfortable with being more enthusiastic than usual. Accentuate your body language so you can be sure buyers are picking up on it. And for god’s sake, use video as much as you can. (Pro Tip: Try looking straight into the camera to imitate in-person eye contact.)
But take care to be mindful of Zoom fatigue. And take breaks of at least 10-15 minutes between calls to prevent it from sucking up all your energy.
#3 Establish Credibility
With the lack of in-person meetings, you’re going to have to work extra hard to establish credibility with your buyer. And that’s saying a lot considering just 3% of buyers consider salespeople trustworthy.
So, how do you establish credibility early on in your sales calls? Below are just a few tips to turn you from a commission-chasing salesperson to a trusted advisor in the eyes of your buyer.
Use personalized videos ahead of time. Video messaging helps form more of a personal connection than words on the screen.
Be informed. Do your research about the company and the contact long before hopping on a call.
Use a professional-looking background on the call, preferably branded. Nothing kills credibility like messy tables and poorly timed family members in the frame.
Look the part. Dress like you would if you were on-site. Because truth be told, this is your new office.
Be punctual. Your buyer’s time is valuable. And the more you waste it, the less they’ll want to buy from you.
Leverage shared contacts heavily. Referrals are gold in the sales industry. And they’re fantastic at boosting credibility.
Don’t bad mouth the competition. It’s unprofessional and will reflect on you poorly. Just don’t do it.
#4 Stay Organized on the Call
In this new world of virtual selling, buyers have less patience for meetings than if they were in person. And that means it falls to you to keep your sales meetings organized, valuable, worth your buyer’s time.
Luckily, you can do a few things to set the structure for a successful remote sales call.
A) Before the Call – You can knock out all 3 of these in a single pre-call email.
Send them the link and login instructions. Be sure to give them tips like jumping on a few minutes early to download the software.
Provide an overview of the agenda.
Allow them to add any topics they want to cover.
B) During the Call – Follow the steps below to keep a tight yet informative structure for your call.
Build rapport at the start of the meeting. Keep this section relatively short, at just a few minutes.
Go through the agenda. It should be the same as what you sent earlier and include any changes from the buyer.
Get buy-in from your audience with a question like, “Is there anything else you’d like to add?”
Use an engaging sales deck that’s not overloaded with written content and is heavy on images, graphs, and videos.
If a demo is involved, give yourself plenty of time to practice beforehand to ensure things go smoothly.
Ask questions throughout to hold your audience’s attention.
Wrap up, recap the content, and establish the next steps.
C) After the Call – Follow-up is a critical part of closing any sale. So be sure to follow these steps after you end the call.
Thank them for joining you on the call and ask if they have any questions.
Send over any sales collateral you mentioned in the presentation (case studies, product specs, etc.).
Follow through on any next step items you said on the call.
Welcome To The New Age of Sales
No one ever said the change was easy. And while the shift to remote selling may be a bit daunting, those with an open mind are going to be the ones who come out ahead because of it.
This four-step framework for selling remotely is sure to help you acclimate to the new age of sales. And with it, you can stay ahead of the curve and start selling as effectively—nay, more effectively—than you ever did in person.
Why "Getting Press" Makes Winning New Business Easier | Salesman Podcast
Oct 24, 2021
Dustin Siggins is the Founder of Proven Media Solutions, a communications and business strategy firm.
In this episode of The Salesman Podcast, Dustin explains what it means to “get press” and how individual salespeople can use this strategy to build more trust at distance and establish themselves as experts in their niche.
Audio:
[spp-player]
Timestamps:
Sponsored by:
Free SalesCode assessment
Learn your strengths and weaknesses in an instant. Taken by over 10,000+ of your competitors. Don't get left behind.
Take the free assessment
Featured on this episode:
Host - Will Barron
Founder of Salesman.org
Guest - Dustin Siggins
Founder of Proven Media Solutions
Sales Nation, as you know, Salesman.org is part of the HubSpot podcast network. Another show that is part of the network, that I enjoy listening to personally, is My First Million, hosted by Sam Parr and Shaan Puri. My First million share stories about how founders earned their first million dollars. So if you are thinking about starting a side hustle, or perhaps you're a business owner, it's great content to keep you motivated. You can listen to My First Million wherever you usually get your podcasts.
Will Barron:
Hello, Sales Nation. My name is Will Barron, host of The Salesman Podcast, the world's most downloaded B2B sales show. On today's episode, we have Dustin Siggins. He is the founder over at ProvenMediaSolutions.net. On today's episode, we're investigating how press can improve your sales results, how to get press, what getting press actually means, and how for a, you and I, a humble, knuckle dragging sales professional, can get mentioned in the media and how this translates to more, faster, better prospecting and sales results. Everything that we talk about in this episode is available over at Salesman.org/Press. With that, let's jump right into it.
Will Barron:
Dustin, welcome to The Salesman Podcast.
Dustin Siggins:
Thanks for having me again.
Will Barron:
I'm glad to have you back on, Dustin. Okay, so in today's show, we're going to look at how press can improve sales results, or even the right press can create better sales leads and faster sales cycles as well.
Getting Press: What Does It Mean and How Can We Use It To Drive Sales Results? · [01:28]
Will Barron:
Give us some context here, Dustin, before we jump into this topic, are we, when we're talking about getting press, are we talking about driving over to the New York Times, if they still have an office, I don't know, however, all these media companies are working remotely or what they're doing now, but driving over to the New York Times and demanding that they do a story on us personally, or is there more specific, industry niche publications that we should be getting in front of? Or does getting press just mean getting quoted in LinkedIn articles? What do we need to do here to use press to drive sales results?
“When it comes to getting press, it depends on what your market is. So for example, there are several things you don't want to do. You don't want to badger somebody, you don't want to just drive up to the door and knock on the door. What you need to do is look at who you are, the story you can tell that would get past what we call gatekeepers, journalists, producers and the like, in a way that they're going to say, “This is interesting, at the right time, from the right person, to put in front of my audience.”” – Dustin Siggins · [02:01]
Dustin Siggins:
So, when it comes to getting press, you've mentioned New York Times, industry trade pubs, it depends on what your market is. So for example, there're several things you don't want to do. You don't want to badger somebody, you don't want to just drive up to the door and knock on the door. What you need to do is look at who you are, the story you can tell that would get past what we call gatekeepers, journalists and producers and the like, in a way that they're going to say, “This is interesting, at the right time, from the right person, to put in front of my audience.”
Dustin Siggins:
So there's a few ways that I would suggest doing that, starting with an opinion piece. The financial advisor who sees a stock market crashing and puts out an opinion piece that everyone should stay in the stock market, it's counter intuitive advice, it's timely for the right kind of person. There's a lot of ways to do that, we'll get more into it in the show, is really tailoring your message to your first audience, which is that gatekeeper, before you reach the people who might buy your services or products.
Will Barron:
For sure. That totally makes sense. For anyone who's listening, who's a quota carrying, knuckle dragging salesperson like I am, working with Dustin on a piece at the moment, but I get quoted somewhat regularly because I have domain expertise in a very thin sliver of B2B training, typically online training. So, even when I was in medical device sales, I was getting quoted, people would be tweeting about me, I'd have different things going on, because I was an expert in one specific space, which was endoscopic camera systems here in Yorkshire, beautiful Yorkshire in the UK. So I just want to lead this conversation with, if you've been in sales for any period of time and you're selling any level of technical or complex product or service, am I right in saying, Dustin, that you probably have some expertise that other people may want to quote or reference you on? Is that fair to say?
Dustin Siggins:
I would put it one step, take it one step back from that. There's a lot of people who may have that same expertise you do, so you have to create a story that's interesting and has the whole strategy behind it. Otherwise, you might be one of 10 people sending out the same email, or the same phone call, to that press outlet. That means you're just wasting your time.
Will Barron:
Sure. Okay.
Dustin Siggins:
You may have the expertise, but it may not matter because if you're in a more saturated market…
How Does Getting in the Press Translate to Improved Sales Results? · [04:16]
Will Barron:
Got it. So we'll come back to story in a minute, but just to tee up the conversation a little bit further, sell the audience on why they should want press, and how press can improve sales results. How does getting noticed, talked about, your story being told, translate into improved kind of sales results in the marketplace, Dustin? I'm assuming, without putting words in your mouth, there's an element of trust here that all this is going to fall back on.
Dustin Siggins:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Trust, of course, know, like, and trust is what every, that I've been taught, since I started doing sales a few years ago. So what about… There are three ways that I would suggest looking at how press can help you stand out from the competition, get you better leads and faster sales.
“When looking at how press can help you stand out from the competition, get you better leads, and faster sales, first craft your message to show your target markets you understand them and how you will solve the problems they know about and the ones they don't.” – Dustin Siggins · [04:48]
Dustin Siggins:
First is craft your message to show your target markets you understand them, and how you will solve their problems, the ones they know about and the ones they don't. So for example, the future of work has been a huge topic since the pandemic. Some people might know that they need to go remote. Other people may not understand the future technologies that are necessary to make their remote work more efficient. I mentioned the stock market example earlier, but there's a lot of supply chain issues here in the States. Some people may know about their specific industry's supply chain issues. They may not know about the wider, American wide, issues. So if you talk about one or the other, you can talk about issues that they know about, and issues that they won't see coming.
Dustin Siggins:
Second, getting into press can turn cold calls and cold meetings, into warm calls and a warm meetings. So you meet somebody at a conference and you've been in industry press for some time, but they shake your hand and hear your name and they go, “Hey, I know who you are. I've heard your name before.” Likewise, in a planned meeting or other environments, people will know your name more likely, when you're engaging in some level of your sales process. In fact, people may contact you because of getting in the press. Well, I've quoted you in Forbes before and people, I somewhat regularly get contacted on a LinkedIn or otherwise by people who saw my article, looked me up, and contacted me, sometimes to engage in the sales process. So getting the press can really engage people before you have to earn know, like, and trust, in the traditional sense, you're already earning it.
“Getting in the right press is just like getting a referral from an influencer. If you're in the right industry trade press, that reporter or that editor has already given you the ability to be trusted, because you're in that source. Whether it's a magazine, a podcast, radio show, TV, you've already begun to earn trust through the credibility referral of that gatekeeper who let you be in their outlet.” – Dustin Siggins · [06:29]
Dustin Siggins:
Then lastly, getting in the right press is just like getting a referral from an influencer. If you're in the right industry trade press, that reporter, or that editor, has already given you the ability to be trusted, because you're in that source, whether it's a magazine, a podcast, radio show, TV, you've already begun to earn trust through the credibility referral of that gatekeeper who let you be in their outlet.
Is There Any Value Left in Earned Media, Especially Now That We’re in the Digital Age? · [06:54]
Will Barron:
Love it. I agree with all of that. One thing that I think we should double down on very quickly is, Dustin, in a world where any salesperson can start writing LinkedIn posts, they can start their own blog, they can start podcasts like this, industry specific, and hopefully drive a load of traffic and attention, what we're talking about here is earned media, right? Is mentions in earned media more valuable or less valuable than it has been in the past?
Dustin Siggins:
I can't answer that question because decades ago there were very few outlets, and now, as you said, the barriers to entry are so low. What I would say is that most… So it's two things.
Dustin Siggins:
One, press should be part of what we call, as a surround sound strategy, surround sound marketing and branding strategy. Don't just put your thing out there. Let's say you get into Forbes, that should be turned into a blog post or some other collateral on your show, on your blog. It should also be turned into email marketing, and on your social media. There should be a strategy surrounding press, otherwise it's just a tactic, one.
Dustin Siggins:
Then two, look at what's being written and differentiate yourself in it, or as someone put it to me when I was starting out as a writer, 12 years ago, look, what's in the news, research the heck out of it, and then write on it. In this case, if you're in the sales industry where everyone's talking on LinkedIn and the like, what are they not saying? You've mentioned driving into a very narrow niche. What are they not saying, and how are they not saying it? So those are two different ways to differentiate in a saturated, low barrier, [inaudible 00:08:22] press environment.
Will Barron:
Sure. Well, I would go more, kind of lean in one direction with my answer, I think it's a massive differentiator, in a place where we're just, buyers are now used to salespeople creating content, if you can either be quoted on an external platform that refers their trust to you, or even better, if you could get a guest post or… Whether it's an industry publication or an industry podcast, or like yourself coming on here, I think that carries way more trust now than ever has done in the past. From the context of though, I never had press 20 years ago, so who knows if it was different then? To be real with the audience here. I see it over the past five years of, I now look for press mentions, and care more about press mentions, than what I did when looking for podcast guests, for example, and things of that nature. I think that trust is becoming even more valuable and more important.
Practical Strategies for Getting in the Press · [09:25]
Will Barron:
So with all that said then, you've kind of given us a few nuggets along the way so far, Dustin, but is there a strategy that we can put in place? Is there a 1, 2, 3 steps,, or an A to Z guide of how a salesperson, or a sales leader, or tonnes of founders and entrepreneurs listen to this show as well, how they can go about getting press, not just for the prestige of having it, but how they can do it step by step to drive more attention and more sales?
“When getting in the Press, we start with looking internally at the outlets that influence your target markets and who are the gatekeepers at those outlets. If you're hitting an industry trade publication, you don't want to hit somebody who's unrelated to what you do. You want to hit the right person at the right outlet. Then you have to develop a strategy to look at what they are paying attention to. So you want to make sure that you've found the right people at the right outlets, and that you get in front of them the right way with the right topics.” – Dustin Siggins · [10:00]
Dustin Siggins:
Sure. So what I'm going to do is, I'm going to pull up a link on my company website. We have actually have a PDF download that gets right into this. We call it Getting in the Press, Your Media Engagement Strategy Guide. So there's a few steps here, but we start with looking internally, what are the outlets that influence your target markets? Who are the gatekeepers at those outlets? You don't want to hit, you're hitting an industry trade publication, you don't want to hit somebody who's unrelated to what you do. You want to hit the right person at the right outlet.
Dustin Siggins:
Then you have to develop a strategy to look at what are they paying attention to? The reporters write the stories, but editors assign the stories. Hosts, like you, conduct interviews, but you also have a producer who'll often handle guest schedules. So you want to make sure that you've found the right people at the right outlets, and that you get in front of them the right way with the right topics.
Dustin Siggins:
So again, when I first reached out to you, I mentioned the topic of getting press and getting into sales. I got your attention through an email and I also reached out to your producer, then we discussed and fine tuned the topic. So that's an example of how I got press getting on to this podcast. That is what salespeople certainly can do is, you have to do a lot of preparation so that you're not reaching out to the wrong person, because then they're going to dismiss you. That's actually going to hurt your brand with those trusted outlets.
Dustin Siggins:
You also want to make sure that you are having the right timing. A joke I make is that gatekeepers will care about taxes in March and April, they will not care at Thanksgiving. So accountants should not try to pitch their story at Thanksgiving, they should do it March and April, conferences, school year dates, or education groups. So to your audience, look at the industry calendar and say, “These outlets that reach my target market, these are the individuals there who reach my target market in a more fine tuned fashion, when are they going to be most interested? Hey, we're going to have a conference every August. Well, let's reach out in June with our specific story, that's going to be timed to that conference.”
Perfect Timing: How to Get Your Opinion Piece Published in the Press · [11:55]
Will Barron:
Dustin, let me give you an example that we can work against. So I was working medical device sales, my biggest customers were typically urologists, and there're tonnes of both trade publications for urologists, trade publications for medical devices. A lot of what is talked about in more pop science articles about urology medicine, that kind of thing, quotes experts within that space with regards to technology. So let's think of it from that perspective of looking at gatekeepers there, what the right timing is, what topics would be interesting, the story, that side of things.
Dustin Siggins:
Sure. So I don't know medical device sales, but let's say you're a salesperson and the Affordable Care Act passes in America in 2010, and there's a medical device sales tax. Everyone's going to be talking about that at the next conference, right? Then if you're the salesperson, you can develop, you can talk about how you managed to deal with that challenge, because now everything's going to be more expensive. Or how you dealt with navigating the new regulations of the Affordable Care Act, so that you can still make your sales quotas, or that you are finding new ways to make new types of sales.
Dustin Siggins:
You do that, you reach out to the gatekeepers, maybe two issues ahead of the conference, or for one of the magazines that they're putting in everyone's bags at the conference. That way, when people are going to be reading those, they're going to be interested in what's going on because it's a huge issue, and your name is going to be there, maybe in an article of your own opinion, an op-ed, as we call it, or quote as an industry expert with a unique story to tell. Now when people are going to be seeing you, they're going to say, “Hey, I read your article. That was really neat, we need to talk.” Or the people who are going to be trying to buy your product are also going to be trying to find new ways to navigate the new medical device scenario with these taxes and regulations, and your piece may be targeted to them more directly.
Will Barron:
Makes total sense. An analogy that I always like to give to describe this phenomenon that I've experienced in the past is, and you'll get this, Dustin, I'm sure you'll agree, if you are ill, you don't look for an average doctor, right? You don't go on a list of top 10 doctors and then go to number seven or eight, you go to whoever's the most timely, appropriate, and who you feel has the most expertise.
Will Barron:
So when we're talking about an acute situation, like a conference, I've done this loads of times, been inadvertently… If I'd have known you, Dustin, five years ago, you could have helped me with some of this stuff. Loads of times, I've been quoted in, as you described, the magazines that go in the gift bags at medical conferences, at urology conferences. A few years ago, the world's biggest urology conference was in the UK, I was there attending, and I was quoted on the website, and on the conference Twitter feed, and a few other places, talking about medical devices and our product. I had a bunch of my actual customers say, “Hey, I saw you, that was awesome. I saw you on this, this, and this,” and come over and have a chat, and then other people would be, “Hey, I recognise your face.” I mentioned this, so I've been through what you're you're talking about here.
Get Past the Gatekeeper and Get Published in the Press as a Total Newbie · [15:00]
Will Barron:
One thing I do want to ask, just as we get into this conversation here, Dustin, is what do you say to people who are listening to this right now who go, “Okay, that's all great for Will, this podcaster who, after, admittedly, years of grinding, now has a little bit of an audience”, or Dustin, killing it with your business, mate, what do you say to sales people listening to this who are going, “Well, I'm probably a little bit of an expert in this space, I probably do have something to say, but there's probably better qualified people. Why would anyone listen to me over them”?
Dustin Siggins:
Sure. So I spent the first part of my career as a political journalist. No one knew me in the business world. In the last few years, I've gotten published at the industry trade publications in the PR space, Forbes, number of other places. I didn't jump right to Forbes. I started thinking about where I can get published at maybe lower level publications that didn't perfectly reach my target market that were easier to access through opinions, through getting quoted in articles, primarily through my own, putting out my own opinion-ating is my primary form of marketing in that way. It builds that brand over time. So when someone looks you up, or you can send them a sample, you can say, “This is the topic, and these are where I've been published before, or I've been on podcasts before.” By getting in front of those early audiences, you start to build that brand.
“Find outlets that are easier to access, that will represent your target market, at least to some degree, and that will allow you to continue to fine tune your message so that as your brand grows, you can reach out to those higher level outlets with a credible message because you know it's your differentiator, and you've had enough experience and a background to send them credible links and references.” – Dustin Siggins · [16:49]
Dustin Siggins:
You also start to notice your differentiation. One thing that I've talked quite a bit about in the last year, I was on your show first about a year ago, was trust protection. I made up that term while we were talking. That was not a term I had previously thought about until we talked about it in the show, and you just drilled right into it. That got me thinking about that specific term, and fine tuning my message around that. So you'll learn a lot if you do a bunch of, I would say, low level, I don't mean, don't go to a blogger who has four reviews, but find outlets that that will, easier to access, that will represent your target market, at least to some degree, and that will allow you to continue to fine tune your message so that as your brand grows, a lot of it is perception, as your brand grows, you can reach out to those higher level outlets with both a credible message, because you know it's your differentiator, and you've had enough experience to, and background, to send them credible links and references.
How to Write the Perfect Email That Gets You Past the Toughest Gatekeepers · [17:20]
Will Barron:
Okay. So, let's get into the nuts and bolts here, you mentioned having samples when you reach out to the gatekeepers, what does that, I assume this is an email that we're sending most of the time, what does that email look like and how can we, if we can, all stand out within that email itself?
Dustin Siggins:
Sure. So…
Will Barron:
Let's put in the context here, Dustin, of we are, perhaps, at this point, reaching out to lower level media outlets that we think that we've got… We're reaching out to Urology Daily Yorkshire, as opposed to The National Society of Urology in the UK. So we're reaching out from the perspective of, “Hey, these people probably want to listen to, at least, these people probably would want to jump on a phone call,” so we're playing the kind of odds here in the right direction.
Dustin Siggins:
So, what's the outlet again?
Will Barron:
I just made it up, but Urology Yorkshire Daily, I don't know, something like that.
Dustin Siggins:
Sure. Well, so, let's talk about, let's use when the economy crashed a year and a half ago, there were so many industries affected and I reached out to an editor at Fox Business with a piece on how you should engage in more marketing when the economy is bad. I have, my title is Founder of a Public Relations Firm, my background includes getting published, and I have the ability to say something counterintuitive, engage in more marketing when everyone else is pulling their marketing. I used some real world examples in my piece. That's how I was able to get published at Fox Business.
“If someone's in the sales environment and everyone's suddenly going remote, you can have articles and reach out to an editor and say, “My company has done this on remote work, I've actually increased my sales because I have spent less time travelling, and I can focus more time on the customer's needs, or the prospects needs. I noticed you have an article about this component of sales, such as remote is going to be the future. Well, here's my story on how that's actually happening.” So you've taken advantage of the news cycle. You've taken advantage of a prior article in order to add a narrow spin on it. Now your expertise might not be in driving better sales in a remote environment, but you have a story that can tailor to the current news cycle, which then you can talk about whatever you really want to talk about.” – Dustin Siggins · [18:46]
Dustin Siggins:
If someone's in the sales environment and everyone's suddenly going remote, you can have articles, you can reach out to an editor and say, “My company has done this on remote work, I've actually increased my sales because I have spent less time travelling, and I can focus more time on the customer's needs, or the prospects needs. I noticed you have an article about this component of sales, such as remote is going to be the future. Well, here's my story on how that's actually happening.” So you've taken advantage of the news cycle. You've taken advantage of a prior article in order to add a narrow spin on it. Now your expertise might not be in driving sale, better sales in a remote environment, but you have a story that can tailor to the current news cycle, which, then you can talk about whatever you really want to talk about.
Why Dustin Prefers Counterintuitive Topics and Point of Views · [19:30]
Will Barron:
Sure. Got it. You mentioned this, slight tangent here, Dustin, you mentioned the term counterintuitive a few times in the conversation. When you are pitching articles, are you pitching counterintuitive content ideas because that's how you're wired, to debate the kind of status quo? I'm the same, that's what I enjoy doing. You could tell me that the sky is blue and I'll debate you that it's something else. I enjoy doing that. Are you wired that way, in which case, you find those insights are easier to come by, or is that strategic?
“You should always say what you believe if you're going to be out there. So, if you can target an outlet that has a certain point of view, and if you see that they accept countering point of views, reach out to those specific outlets. There are times where it's best to go with the flow, but offer your unique experience in a positive way. But the reason I like counterintuitive strategically is, by going against the grain, it will pop better. It will often get more reads. Everyone else is saying this, but Will is saying that. People go, “Well, that's really interesting. I hadn't thought about that before.”” – Dustin Siggins · [20:09]
Dustin Siggins:
It's a combination of factors. I'm a naturally contrary person. So, yes, to your point, but second, you should always say what you believe if you're going to be out there. So when, if you can target an outlet that has a certain point of view, and if you see that they accept countering point of views, reach out to those specific outlets. There are times where it's best to go with the flow, but offer your unique experience in the positive way. So it just depends on what outlet you're looking for.
Dustin Siggins:
The reason I like counterintuitive strategically is, by going against the grain, it will pop better. It will often get more reads. Everyone else is saying this, but Will is saying that. People go, “Well, that's really interesting. I hadn't thought about that before.” Now, you're going to… The book, Challenger Sales, I'm sure you're familiar with it.
Will Barron:
Yep.
Dustin Siggins:
They talk about getting people to say, “Huh, hadn't thought of it that way.” That's where that counterintuitive strategy can work.
Get Customisable Templates for Reaching Out to Media Gatekeepers · [20:55]
Will Barron:
Okay, that makes sense. Do you have, if not, I'll write one and put it in the show notes of this episode, do you have an example or a template of what we should be using to reach out to media gatekeepers?
Dustin Siggins:
Sure. Well, at the risk of being overly self promotional, I do have this PDF download I mentioned, about the internal and external considerations for reaching out to the press.
Will Barron:
Cool.
Dustin Siggins:
We also have a number of sample press releases that people can use when announcing bigger news.
Will Barron:
Cool. Well, I'll link that, we'll do the show notes to this episode, Salesman.org/Press, we'll do that as the show notes, and everything that Dustin is describing there, I'll link down on the page, so everyone listening can go and grab it. Okay.
How and When to Send Follow Up Emails After the Initial No Response · [21:40]
Will Barron:
So with that said, at this point, hopefully we've sent off this killer email, the gatekeeper has gone, “Holy, holy macaroni, Dustin is a legend, killer salesperson, expert in this space, I want to get them on”. Then they go, “I've also got 5000 other things to get through and other requests on my time, so I'll get back to Dustin next week.” Then they forget to get back to you. Is there an appropriate way to follow up or do we then just pitch the next idea, as opposed to following up on the original one?
Dustin Siggins:
So generally speaking… Well, let me back up. If it's an evergreen topic, you just keep following up to get on their calendar. You're also, unless you're offering an opinion piece that's unique to them, like you literally offer it to the Washington Post and until they publish it, you can't send it anywhere else, you can send it to anybody you want to. I would hardly ever recommend, if you're doing the sort of article quoting that you're talking about, sending just to one outlet, unless it's truly unique to them.
Will Barron:
Sure.
Dustin Siggins:
A lot of times is, you can have a pitch to you, Will, that I would just tailor to somebody else with a few, changing 10 or 15 words. What I would suggest, if you're talking about the opinion article type of piece, like the kind of piece you see in the Washington Post or the Guardian, obviously we're talking here, business angle, not political angles, I would definitely reach out to those outlets with a deadline. “Hey, I'm exclusively yours for 48 hours.”
Dustin Siggins:
Use the weekend to your advantage. If you're talking about something that's going to happen next week, or that just happened, you're on a news cycle, a deadline here, so what you need to do is say, “Hey, you have 48 hours, because of the news cycle, I need to move on at that point.” You follow up 24 hours later, and if they say yes, and then they don't publish within 24 hours, you should always get deadlines and timelines from these people because, again, as you inferred, they get several hundred emails a day, hundreds of pitches, and you have to break through and then make sure they continue to stay aware of you.
Why Deadlines Matter When Reaching Out to Gatekeepers and Trying to Get Published · [23:49]
Will Barron:
Sure. So you're not going to… That's an appropriate thing to say then, “There's a 48 hour deadline here,” follow up after 24 hours, and then move on? That's an appropriate cadence? The reason I ask is, I know our audience are more than capable of following up over the next four years to get something in the books, because that's what they're doing in these complex sales they're driving in their own organisations. So again, just expertise and, I guess, context from an expert like yourself is important here.
Dustin Siggins:
Sure. Well, and the other thing too is, you can often get quoted sort of as a secondary matter, where you're not the star, but maybe you're getting on to someone else's coattails. I have a very good friend, he's a self made millionaire, he's a true entrepreneur, Lee [Rashkin 00:24:27], and I was able to quote him in one of my Forbes articles, but he didn't lead the article, Mark Cuban did. I was able to quote Mark Cuban as well. So, Lee wasn't the star, but I'll bet he had some additional star power with the right strategy, by being associated with Mark Cuban at Forbes.
Dustin Siggins:
So there's a lot of times where you can be that sort of coattail person, or secondly, you can also be, what I like to call, the straight man, or straight woman, where maybe everyone else is talking about something controversial or changing industry stuff, and your goal is to just be quoted as somebody who's an expert on the definition of terms. I quoted a lawyer on mergers and acquisitions, on the difference between a vertical and a horizontal merger, in a topic that was politically oriented about business. He was the straight man in the article. So you also want to make sure you're thinking about, when you're reaching out to these outlets, what might your unique voice be? Where yes, you see they're [inaudible 00:25:22] quoting big names, but what about that smaller person who has that unique story that plays to the larger angle?
Will Barron:
Sales Nation, this episode of the show is brought to you by HubSpot CRM. So it's October, and that means it's scary. When I say scary, I mean clunky, rigid patchwork solutions masquerading as CRMs are scary as heck. Now, HubSpot CRM platform is purpose built. It scales and flexes as your business grows, so no matter what spooky things lie around the corner, your CRM platform is ready for you. We have tools for marketing, sales, customer service, content management, and operations. HubSpot CRM is fully integrated and flexible, meaning that your entire team are able to do their thing. Use HubSpot to meet customer needs, align your teams, and work smarter without slowing down. So whether you're just getting started, or looking for a more robust system, HubSpot is the number one CRM platform for scaling businesses. You can learn more about how you can customise your CRM platform with HubSpot over at HubSpot.com.
Will Barron:
For sure. I think that's probably a whole episode in itself for storytelling within sales, and when reaching out to gatekeepers, both media gatekeepers, and then gatekeepers throughout the sales process as well, because when we're reaching out to a gatekeeper in the sales process, if they're passing on our story to see if we're going to make it to the decision maker, there're different techniques and different things that we need to do there to make sure that message translates appropriately. So maybe that's an episode for the future.
How Often Should You Try to Get in the Press? · [27:00]
Will Barron:
Dustin, I've got one final question, mate. I don't know the answer to this, and I don't know if there is a clear answer to this, but leaning on Pareto's Law, or the 80/20 principle of 20% of the efforts that we make will give us 80% of the results, how often do we need to be in the media to get all of this trust inference, this ability to have almost instant rapport with people, if they've seen us in the media? Do we need to be quoted every week? Is it fine to do a stint of this now, as we record this in 2021, and then that lasts the next decade, because you can say, “Well,” 10 years from now, you can say, “Well, I was quoted here, here and here,” or does that trust diminish over time? What's the longer term strategy for this? Is it weekly, monthly, yearly? What do we need to do to make the most out of it?
“Getting quoted once a month or getting an article published under your name, under your byline, once a month is a tactic. But if you're not telling everyone about it through the rest of your marketing tools, your email newsletter, your social media, passing around at meetings, or otherwise using it to your advantage, then all you're doing is getting your name out there in a way that's only going to reach a small subset of your target market.” – Dustin Siggins · [27:58]
Dustin Siggins:
I would say monthly, as a general rule. It could be as a little as quarterly, depending upon the outlets, your industry, and some other components, but you must have a strategy around it. Again, getting quoted once a month, or getting an article published under your name, under your byline, once a month is a tactic. If you're not telling everyone about it through the rest of your marketing tools, your email newsletter, your social media, passing around at meetings, or otherwise using it to your advantage, then all you're doing is getting your name out there in a way that's only going to reach a small subset of your target market. So I would say once a month, also because, unless this is something you're really good at, it's going to be very, very difficult. It's a huge mental and time suck. I don't want people to be distracted from their core goal, which is to engage with prospects.
Dustin Siggins:
So I would say once a month, aim for the smaller outlets that are really easy to get into, that way you'll learn along the way and won't be a huge mental time suck, but you can still say, “I got published at XY outlet, or got onto ABC podcasts”, and it's still going to be somewhat impressive and they'll go and listen and you'll build that trust.
Will Barron:
For sure.
Dustin Siggins:
I want to, can I close out with one thing real quick?
Will Barron:
Course you can.
Dustin Siggins:
Don't get bad press. I'll define bad press as anything that doesn't create better leads or drive faster sales. So shiny objects, things that maybe you're personally passionate about, or they look good, or they offer little to no value. That means you just wasted your time and your company's time and scarce resources. Always be prepared for press, or it's bad. The first time I was ever on TV, I was not prepared at all, and it was a disaster. I just won't tell you all where the link is so you won't have to see that.
Dustin’s Nightmare Press Moment · [29:33]
Will Barron:
Well, give us, you've teased us there. This is not, I'm sure you have improved since then, I'm certain of it, but what was that situation like? Were you called up last minute? Just for storytelling purposes for the audience, how did that turn out?
Dustin Siggins:
So, it was a political show, and I was a political journalist at the time. They told me to sit still, and look at the camera, and don't move. I took them literally. I looked like C3PO, just sitting there, staring at the camera.
Dustin Siggins:
Second, I didn't understand that you should get, in an interview style format, unless it's like a super friendly interview like this one, you should always have three talking points and come back to them every single time, and always get out your full statement each time you're allowed. Might only be 30, 60 seconds in a sort of three minute interview. I thought I could have one statement that leads to the next one, but my first one, it was counterintuitive in the wrong way. I was going to clarify it with my next statement, I never got a final statement. So the host was able to use my statement to imply that I had a certain position, which I didn't, and then use that, use me as a springboard to make himself look better. I was not prepared physically, I wasn't prepared with the strategy for being on a TV show, and I wasn't prepared with my talking points and it just, it didn't go well.
Will Barron:
Well, there you go. The moral of the story there is, Dustin, is to host the podcast… You're brighter than me, mate, when you try and screw me over, I just go click. It never airs, and you're in control.
Dustin Siggins:
Exactly.
Parting Thoughts · [31:11]
Will Barron:
Well, we'll wrap up with that, Dustin. I appreciate the candidness of your response there, mate. With that, tell us where we can find more about you, Proven Media Solutions, and everything else that you're up to, mate.
Dustin Siggins:
Sure. So we're ProvenMediaSolutions.net. As we discussed earlier, we're going to put you in the press, that's our job. It's a lot of fun and it's very validating to be able to be on programmes like this, Will, and be able to talk about this kind of stuff that I've learned in the last 12 years. So ProvenMediaSolutions.net, you can find the PDF that I mentioned, I think, Will, you said you're going to link it, it's also on our website. You can find me on LinkedIn, under Dustin Siggins, there's, I think, two people with my name in the whole world, so I'm pretty easy to find.
Will Barron:
Amazing stuff. I'll link to all of that in the show notes for this episode, over at Salesman.org/Press. With that, Dustin, I thank you for your time, your expertise, and all of this, mate, I really do, and for joining us again on The Salesman Podcast.
6 Simple Sales Presentation Tips To Close More Deals
Oct 22, 2021
The big day is almost here. You've built a strong relationship with a mammoth new client. And over the past few weeks, you've generated strong rapport. All that's left is winning them over with an engaging sales presentation.
But you know the templated sales deck your company provided won't make the grade. And with a game-changing commission on the line, you're prepared to put in the extra work this time.
This six-step sales presentation framework will tighten up your pitch and share some killer sales presentation tips. With them, you can create a truly valuable presentation that leaves your buyer saying, “Where do I sign?” rather than “what product or service is this dude actually selling?”
#1 Research, Research, Research
The first step to building the best sales presentation is research. Research on the company. Research on the challenges they're facing today. And research on the audience you'll be presenting to.
Your research should guide your presentation and uncover insights and angles to use during your pitch.
Below are a few sales presentation tips to guide your exploration of these categories.
Company – You should have a general idea of what the company does and its industry from preliminary marketing data. But you shouldn't stop there. Look into their company history. Get a feel for their culture and values. Examine annual reports and build their figures into your deck. The key here is immersion. The more you understand about their business, the more you can tweak your presentation to match it.
Challenges – Perhaps the most essential part of building your sales presentation is catering to the buyer's specific needs. Is their industry undergoing a massive shift? Are new competitors breaking into the space more rapidly? And how do these challenges relate to your product? Use these challenges as a jumping-off point to get your prospect listening and give them real-world applications for what you offer.
Audience – Will you be presenting to a decision-maker like an executive? Hit the metrics that matter. Is it someone that'll report to a higher-up later (i.e., a gatekeeper)? Provide them with the sales collateral (product brochures, use cases, case studies) to make it easier to get decision-maker buy-in. Protip: You always want to get in front of a decision-maker if you can help it (part of the MEDDPICC sales methodology).
#2 Focus on Their Pain Points First & Your Product Second
Too many salespeople make the mistake of focusing on how great the product is. But you have to remember—you aren't actually selling a product. You're selling a solution. A prospect won't care about how innovative your features are if they don't see how they solve their problems.
Instead, put the main focus on their problems. This is key when building a sales presentation that is going to have an impact on a prospect. Please educate yourself on the buyer's pain points and put them in the sales presentation's spotlight.
The core benefits of taking this approach include:
Showing you're informed about your buyer's problem. The more you understand their problem, the more they'll trust that you have the solution.
Gives buyers the opportunity to fine-tune the problem. Your prospects will be able to clarify the situation if you misrepresent the challenges they face. Then you can tweak your approach to match their needs.
Builds trust. Just 3% of buyers trust salespeople. As a trusted advisor that understands your buyer's needs (not just a salesperson), you're in a unique place to offer insights and value to their business (not just a pitch).
Differentiates your product from the competition. Executives get countless sales pitches every year. And even the most charismatic salesperson can easily get lost in the rabble. But when you sell a solution rather than just a product, you stand out from the crowd.
The best sales presentations will add value to the buyer in the presentation itself. The buyer should walk away with some action points and not just a pile of marketing material in their hands.
#3 Engage (a Bit) at the Outset
How should you begin your sales presentation? Simple—with a conversation.
So many salespeople tend to jump right into the thick of things. No small talk. No “getting to know you” chit-chat. And most importantly, no learning more about who they're presenting to.
Getting to the point is an understandable impulse. After all, time is money. And the more you spend on niceties, the less time there is to focus on the meat (selling your product).
But starting your presentation with this mindset is a mistake. Because when you skip over the casual conversation, you're also missing the chance to:
Build essential rapport
Learn about specific challenges your buyers are facing
Better tailor your pitch to address their unique needs
So, take just a few minutes to chew the fat with your audience. Keep things focused on the business, though. A friendly remark about the weather is a great icebreaker. But a 10-minute conversation on the rain is a waste of time.
#4 Keep the Conversation Going
One of the biggest myths in the industry is that a sales presentation is one-sided. Get in. You present your case. And get out. The only time you engage with the buyers is before and when you answer questions at the end.
But staying so structured is a misstep. And it's hurting your numbers.
Instead, take a few moments throughout your presentation actually to talk with your buyers. Ask if a point is resonating with them. See whether the challenges they're facing match up with the pain points you present. Then, inquire about solutions they've used in the past to try and solve those challenges.
You can use the information you gather to shift your presentation on the fly.
This isn't a mindless sales presentation technique where you're trying to tick a box. Ask questions throughout your presentation and you'll be keeping your audience engaged.
Nothing spells “doomed deal” like a room full of glazed-over eyes. Shifting the focus to the audience for a moment resets their attention span and brings their concentration back to the sales presentation.
Protip: Shift your presentation every 9 minutes.
According to sales revenue intelligence platform Gong, the best performing salespeople switch up their presentation every 9.1 minutes.
If you're searching for a quick way to improve your sales pitch and build more effective sales presentations then this is it.
When you're planning out your deck, keep the 9-minute rule in mind. Try to space out sections with a mix of different focuses and mediums like:
Slide presentations
Product demos
Video testimonials
Detailed case studies
Bring in a new speaker as a subject matter expert
The more varied your sales presentation is, the lower your audience's likelihood of having their heads in the clouds.
#5 Optimize Your Sales Deck
Your company may recommend using their time-tested B2B sales deck. And averaged across industries, with generic key points, it may bring in some great results. But if you want to perk up your buyer's ears, you need to drop the cookie-cutter approach.
Instead, optimize your sales deck with the tips below to keep your audience more engaged throughout the presentation.
A. Cut Down on the Number of Slides
Prospect overwhelm is real. And a 50-slide deck that drags on and on can be a bit too much to swallow.
Sales professionals often feel productive building out a deck like this but think it from your prospects perspective. Your prospects are looking for tips to help them solve an issue from your sales presentation. Not death by slides.
Rather than throwing everything you have into your sales deck, keep it relatively simple. For example, highlight the key images and statistics. Include dynamic media like videos to simplify your sales presentation. And leave the “in the weeds” content to other sales collateral like case studies and product specs.
Focus on customer stories rather marketing collateral to build an effective sales presentation.
B. Streamline On-Slide Content
You'll also want to cut down on your on-slide content too. It can be tempting to include all the information you're covering right on the screen. But doing so leads to buyers simply reading your presentation rather than focusing on your delivery.
When you're selective about the info you display, you control your prospect's attention. And that gives you the power to:
Sway them with storytelling
Highlight important points
Address pain points head-on
Show a visual data rather than numbers
C. Use Social Proof Strategically
Social proof is a vital component of any successful sale. Positive reviews can be powerful, even if the buyer doesn't even know the reviewer. 70% of people will trust a recommendation from someone they don't even know.
This is something that sales and marketing teams will battle over. Sales teams know the importance of customer stories specific to the buyer sat in the room. Where are marketers want to tell fluffy, generic stories that “build brand” over time… Stick to the specific social proof when building an effective sales presentation.
But displaying social proof early on in the pitch can hurt your close rates. So instead, save it for later. Be sure to use faces and names if you can. And use companies that the prospect can relate to, not companies that will alienate them (from the same industry vs. well-known brands).
#6 Practice Incessantly To Build Confidence
Finally, be sure to practice your sales presentation and run through your sales deck several times before stepping in front of your audience. Doing so will build your confidence and present you as an expert your buyer trusts.
Memorize specific metrics and statistics. Rehearse answers to concerns to keep the flow going. And be sure to build in time for in-the-moment questions, so you're not rushing at the end.
But be careful, though—coming off too scripted is a surefire way of losing attention. Instead, stay flexible in your delivery. You may notice in the moment that some selling points aren't landing as well as you planned. If that's the case, be prepared to shift course if need be.
Master Your Sales Presentation & Close More Deals
The success of the deal hinges entirely on your sales presentation. Done poorly, it'll alienate the prospect and lead them to side with your competition. But done well, it'll convince enthusiastic buyers that your product is the perfect solution to their pesky problem.
Stop procrastinating and Googling for more sales presentation tips. Follow this six-step sales presentation framework to craft a targeted, solution-driven sales presentation your buyers will love today.
6 Tips To Master Virtual Selling And Crush Your Sales Quota
Oct 18, 2021
Remember when the thought of having sales conversations and collaborating from home made your stomach turn?
How do you make a good sales pitch when you're in your kitchen? What if everyone's laptops stopped working? Would talking to a prospect through a screen feel weird?
Well, virtual selling became a reality for sales reps when COVID-19 forced the selling workforce to go remote. But now, working from home is welcomed (perhaps even preferred). Case in point:
63% of the sales leaders believe virtual sales meetings are equally or more effective than traditional, face-to-face meetings.
75% of B2B customers prefer remote sales interactions over traditional face-to-face ones
At first it was a necessity, now the virtual sales process seems like the best way to close deals. So if virtual selling is here to stay, what do we need to do to get better at it, fast?
Read on as we cover virtual selling best practices and tactics to help you master the art of selling from home.
What Is Virtual Selling Anyway?
Virtual selling or remote selling is the process of interacting and converting a lead virtually instead of connecting in person.
The most important part of the virtual selling process for B2B sales teams is “video. ”
Video conferencing tools like Zoom, Google Meet, and Skype have adapted to the virtual sales world. They offer a more convenient way for sales reps to communicate, follow up, and sell without ever having to meet the prospect in person.
At the same time, there's more to virtual selling than using technology to make sales calls. It's an opportunity for you to establish trust, build relationships, and convert your prospects into paying customers.
Which Virtual Selling Skills Do You Need to Improve?
Virtual selling skills aren't different from that of in-person selling. Confidence, fast-thinking, empathy… the personality traits are the same.
The difference is around the communication format.
You need to practice and train with video to iron out any issues and familiarize yourself with this new way of selling.
According to a study conducted by RAIN Group Center for Sales Research, buyers considered the following four factors when asked what has the most significant influence on their purchase decisions when interacting with sellers virtually?
Leading a thorough discovery of their concerns, wants, and needs (71%)
Explaining what's possible on how to solve a problem (58%)
Listening (68%)
Making the ROI explicitly clear (66%)
You'll also find the following four skills helpful to simplify your virtual selling:
Establishing a professional brand by creating an optimized LinkedIn profile
Developing and nurturing a valuable online network
Practicing effective prospecting based on personas
Engaging with your target audience by liking, commenting, sharing, and serving as an expert resource
While these skills may not come naturally to every sales rep, you can learn them. Of course, you could learn these skills from sales videos on Youtube or podcasts, but virtual-specific sales training is often a quicker pathway to success.
The Best Virtual Sales Training
Sales training is an essential part of a successful sales professional's career, and virtual selling is no exception.
If you're serious about leveling up your digital selling skills, consider working with a sales training company to brush up your knowledge and skillset. Why not sign up to the Selling Made Simple Academy and close more sales in the next 28-days or your money back.
6 Virtual Selling Tips to Hit Your Target
The only way to succeed with virtual selling is to reimagine your sales process for virtual selling. But, first, you have to figure out ways to use video and other digital elements to become more engaging when carrying out selling activities.
With this in mind, here are 6 virtual selling techniques to set yourself up for success:
#1 Plan Your Sales Call Ahead
Sales reps often assume their virtual calls will go exactly how they imagined without planning ahead. (News Flash: They don't.)
You must set expectations and make the process as clear and straightforward as possible for the buyer, which is only possible when you plan ahead.
Start your pre-call planning by:
Informing the prospect about how to join the video call
Giving the prospect details of which platform to use and how it works
Explaining how to join the meeting, and mention a backup way to connect if there are any technical issues.
Remove any confusion or doubts the prospect may have. This clarity will lay the foundation of a successful sales interaction.
#2 Send Personalized Prospecting Videos
Prospecting is the most critical part of the virtual selling process. You'll find yourself competing against endless emails in your prospect's inbox, so the pressure to get attention is high.
Prospecting virtually involves using video sales tools like Loom and Vidyard. You can use them to create personalized videos and speak directly to the prospect.
Not only will this make your email stand out, thanks to the more interactive video element of your email. But by allowing the prospect to see your face, you will build an instant connection with them too.
Think of this as a video form of a cold email. So the usual rules of providing content and value to the prospect still apply.
#3 Get a User-Friendly and Reliable Virtual Selling Tool
At this stage, you're already well-adapted to the concept of holding virtual meetings. But whether or not these sales meetings are successful depends mainly on the virtual selling tool you use.
It would be best to have a reliable video conferencing tool like Zoom, Microsoft Teams, and Webex Meetings ready to rock and roll. Or any other means that offers a frictionless and secure video environment to communicate smoothly with your customers. We also recommend using popular tools that are easy to install and set up.
#4 Keep the Cameras On During Sales Meetings
Once you have the prospect on call, the other part of your job starts: gauging the prospect's body language and interest and conducting the meeting accordingly.
Virtual selling lets you connect with a person on a deeper level than on a phone call. You can see their reactions—positive and negative—and adjust your approach to ensure better outcomes. When selling virtual you can judge body language and other rapport cues that you'd otherwise have to be in person to see.
The goal for sales professionals when keeping the camera on is to give the prospect your full attention during the meeting and try to study their reactions.
If they're confused, try to clear their doubts
If they seem disinterested, try to engage them more
If they're keen to try out your product, take immediate action and move them down the funnel.
But none of this will be possible without the cameras. So encourage the prospect to turn on their camera and keep yours on too any time you're engaging in the virtual sales process with a prospect.
#5 Handle Introductions and Hand-offs Tactfully
Although handing off the buyer from one person to another during the sales process should be avoided, sometimes they're inevitable.
Business development representatives (BDRs) often start the relationship before handing it off to a sales professional. Subject matter experts and service teams may also be involved in answering technical questions the buyer may have.
See? Hand-offs are inevitable.
But think of all of this jumping about, from person to person from the prospect's viewpoint: they began building a relationship with you, and when they start to trust you, you introduce them to someone they've never had a relationship with before.
This issue becomes even more grave when selling virtually.
To win at selling virtually, you have to make the hand-off as seamless as possible. For example, you can either introduce the new person through an email, giving the prospect more context around how the new person can help them. Or, even better, you can have the new person join in on a virtual meeting and formally introduce them to the prospect.
#6 Leverage the Power of Video Follow-Ups
When virtual selling, you'll find yourself following up after sales meetings and after sending over proposals to prospects.
You can email a video to follow up with the prospect, recapping everything discussed in the sales meeting. This video will help you get your message across exactly how you intend and make it easier for the buying team to share it among other decision-makers too.
You should also include videos within your proposals to get ahead of objections and provide more transparency. Start your proposal by walking the prospect through the details and what documents should be reviewed in your video.
These tactics will improve your chances of closing the deal and establishing trust with the prospect's organization. This is a must for both sales and marketing teams in 2021.
Virtual Selling Is Here To Stay
Virtual selling enables you to build a solid relationship with your client and get deeper insights into their needs. You can use this information to customize your pitch, improving your chances of actually making the sale.
Virtual selling isn't only about the technology—you'll still need your awesome selling skills to close deals. Sales leaders get this wrong all the time. You're likely not doing in person meetings anymore and so it's time to put the COVID 19 pandemic behind you, start to sell virtually and embrace the video call as the best way to engage, deal with challenges and win more deals.
Will Barron
Will Barron is the founder of Salesman.org. He is an Apple award winning podcaster and on a mission to Make Selling Simple. Will’s flagship Selling Made Simple Academy training program has over 2,000 students who generate over $992m in new revenue each year.
4-Step Process To Master NLP in Sales
Oct 15, 2021
Any salesperson worth their salt knows using the right words in a pitch means the difference between a monumental win and a colossal failure.
But only the best sellers understand that there's far more at play here than just words. There are plenty of other ways to subtly nudge buyers towards a yes decision. And using neuro-linguistic programming is one framework for tapping into those techniques.
But what is neuro-linguistic programming (NLP)? Does it work? And how can you use NLP in sales?
This guide takes you through these questions and more. We'll also look at a proven 4-step framework you can use to sell more with NLP.
What Is Neuro-Linguistic Programming?
First off, let's define neuro-linguistic programming.
Coined by Richard Bandler and John Grinder in The Structure of Magic I and II, NLP is a framework for explaining and influencing how people think and behave.
Initially, NLP was based on the idea that we operate according to an internal and unconscious “map.” Unfortunately, that map doesn't always reflect the reality of the world. And by using a system of language, strategies, and subtle behaviors, we can influence and change that map—both in ourselves and others.
One of the most influential aspects of NLP is that so much of our lives are built on unconscious thought and communication. According to Bandler, “The greatest personal limitation is to be found not in the things you want to do and can't, but in the things you've never considered doing.”
Bandler and Grinder also believed that NLP could identify the patterns of thoughts and behaviors of successful individuals. After they were identified, others could then learn how to replicate that same success.
NLP has been applied to everything from improved work productivity and career progression to phobias, depression, anxiety, and PTSD.
NLP has a place in the world of B2B sales too to help influence and build rapport with buyers.
Does It Actually Work?
Research on the use of neuro-linguistic programming for treating health conditions is scarce.
One review of five randomized controlled trials found that only one trial indicated any support. The other four showed the opposite. Another report from the Canadian Agency for Drugs and Technology in Health found zero clinical evidence supporting NLP.
That being said, there's a growing body of research supporting the use of NLP too.
It seems that, as of now, there isn't enough data out there to say conclusively if NLP works as a tool for B2B sales professionals. But, as the authors of the first review put it, their conclusion “reflects the limited quantity and quality of NLP research, rather than robust evidence of no effect.”
However, many professional salespeople swear by its application in sales.
How Does NLP Apply to Sales?
The science may still be out on NLP's effects on health conditions.
But most NLP studies focus exclusively on treating conditions like anxiety and depression. Not for influencing the successful close of a sale. And as you might expect, research on that topic, in particular, is even scarcer.
But instead of thinking of NLP in sales as several specific practices, it's better to view it as a set of principles.
As a professional salesperson, you know that clinching the deal is about more than just words. Other factors affecting the sale include your:
Body language
Intonation
General demeanor
And more
These almost invisible cues all influence whether a buyer trusts you or thinks you're just plain lying. They may not know why they feel that way. But they still feel it all the same.
The value of NLP is that it identifies what's causing buyers to feel that trust or distrust. It's a way to step back, examine your subconscious behaviors, and find ways to use them to your advantage.
In the end, NLP in sales isn't about manipulating others. Instead, it's a way of refining yourself. And it's one more way to prove to buyers that your product is the solution to their problems.
NPL in Sales: 4-Step Selling Framework
There are plenty of ways you can apply the principles of neuro-linguistic programming to your processes. Below are four of the best NLP techniques for sales you can start using today.
#1: Emotional Anchoring
The emotional anchoring technique helps induce a specific emotional response they've had in the past. These emotional responses can then be associated with a particular outcome (like buying your product).
Let's say you're selling a product that lets your buyer achieve greater productivity. A positive outcome of that greater productivity is the ability to attain hard-to-reach goals and impress the C-suite.
An example of emotional anchoring when pitching to this buyer might look like this:
Get the buyer to recall the feelings of achieving a lofty goal at work.
Solidify the experience by using visual language and bringing other feelings into the experience (e.g., impressing their boss).
Anchor that experience with a specific phrase (“your crowning achievement”) or a particular gesture (a chef's kiss).
Use that anchor when you talk about what your product can achieve.
By anchoring a powerful experience, you can then tie that anchor back to your product. The result is an intense association that's more likely to win buy-in.
#2: NLP Phrases for Sales
One way to achieve emotional anchoring is by using emotionally rich language to “prime” a buyer for a specific feeling. This, again, is a technique that many of the best salespeople use intuitively. Even when they aren't well versed in neuro-linguistic programming or language manipulation.
Also known as “magic words” or “power words,” marketers of all kinds have used these phrases to elicit emotions of rapport and persuasion. Some examples of NLP phrases for sales are:
For positive emotions:
Believe
Change
Energize
Healthy
Overcome
Thrive
Success
Refresh
Happy
For inspiring curiosity:
Finally
Revealed
Truth
Imagine
Expose
Secret
Uncover
Illegal
For triggering urgency:
Urgent
Easy
Simple
Limited time
Tested
Rare
Running out
Deadline
For building trust:
Guarantee
Certified
No risk
Proven
Backed
Endorsed
Protected
Try peppering these words into your communication with prospects. You'll be surprised at just how powerful they can be. They can help you break through sales objections, influence a buyers behavior and change selling outcomes.
#3: Body Language & Communication Mirroring
Like attracts like. It's a core tenet that's hardwired into our brains. And we're more likely to get along with those similar to us. So a skilled communicator can use that tendency to their advantage.
Mirroring body language is a technique that puts the buyer at ease and breaks down mental barriers. It can be done by copying the mannerisms, gestures, and posture of the buyer. But it can also apply to communication styles (expressions, humor, cadence, cordiality).
The trick, though, is walking the fine line between mirroring body language too closely and too subtly. Too closely, and they're likely to catch on and become suspicious. Too subtly, and you won't achieve much of an effect at all.
Here are a few tips to make your mirroring more successful:
Maintain great eye contact
Look for unique hand gestures
Mimic posture
Pick out phrases they tend to use
Match their cadence
Don't forget about volume
#4: Mastering Modeling (a.k.a “The Swish Pattern”)
This is one of the more challenging NLP techniques to learn.
The “swish pattern” is a way to inspire buyers to recognize pre-conceived notions they hold in their own heads. These can be biases, investment hang-ups, prejudices—anything that happens automatically in their minds. Once they're out in the open, you can then show them why overcoming those notions can benefit their business.
Let's look at an example.
Say you have a buyer that's extremely averse to investing in optimizing the e-commerce side of their business. Despite all that's changed in doing business digitally, they still prefer the “old school” way of doing business. You, however, represent a service that offers 24/7 live chat for helping online customers.
So, how do you convince a buyer like that to sign on for a focused e-commerce service like yours? Even when there's little rapport in the customers relationship?
The swish pattern technique involves showing the buyer the value of investing in the e-commerce side of their business. Pointing out specific statistics and trends is helpful here.
But then (and this is the trick), you have to install a new self-image that comes about because of the investment. A great strategy here is pointing out case studies of similar past clients. Ideally, they'll be clients that had the same hang-ups as your prospective buyer. The more you're able to put your prospective buyer in the shoes of satisfied past clients, the better.
By swapping out their old ideas (e-commerce doesn't matter) with a shiny new self-image (e-commerce can help me thrive in my career), they're one step closer to signing off on the deal.
Start Using NLP for Sales Today
Using NLP for sales forces you to be more aware of your subconscious behaviors, both verbal and non-verbal. With that newfound awareness and a few new skills and key strategies, you can fine-tune your pitch or sales presentation to meet the specific needs of your buyer. And that, of course, means closing more sales.
Give the four-step NLP framework for selling a try today. But always remember, NLP is about getting better at connecting buyers with your valuable product. Not about manipulating them into a sale.
Looking for other techniques to refine your sales skills and close more deals? Get your exclusive online sales training today for FREE. Just click below to get started now.
Understanding The NEW Buyer Journey (And How To Make The Most Of The Change) | Salesman Podcast
Oct 14, 2021
On this episode of the Salesman Podcast, Christian Kinnear (SVP of International Sales, HubSpot) explains how the buyer journey has changed since the pandemic and what you need to do to take advantage of these changes.
You'll learn:
Coming soon.
Sponsored by:
Free SalesCode assessment
Learn your strengths and weaknesses in an instant. Taken by over 10,000+ of your competitors. Don't get left behind.
Take the free assessment
Featured on this episode:
Host - Will Barron
Founder of Salesman.org
Guest - Christian Kinnear
SVP of International Sales, HubSpot
8 Sales Philosophies to Simplify Selling and Skyrocket Your Win Rate
Oct 13, 2021
Every sales professional has one aim: more sales.
Without sales, growth stagnates—which won't bode well for your organization's bottom line. And while securing deals is no easy feat, finding a sales framework that can be rinsed and repeated to ensure scalable, predictable, and measurable growth is entirely different.
To be at the top of your selling game, you need a scalable sales process—a proven sales methodology that best represents your product, values, goals, and market.
But how do you choose the best selling method for you?
This Salesman.org guide will examine eight successful sales philosophies to help you find your perfect fit and skyrocket your win rate.
#1 SPIN Selling
Neil Rackham popularized the SPIN selling philosophy in his 1988 book, making it one of the oldest sales methodologies still in practice today. And despite the decades passed, SPIN is just as relevant (and reliable) today in the B2B world.
SPIN is an acronym of the four elements your sales questions should revolve around: Situation, Problem, Implication, and Need-payoff. Each of these four elements will help you uncover prospect pain points and challenges, making it easier for you to establish a solid rapport with them.
Situation questions centered around understanding a prospect's current situation
Problem questions to get to the heart of the prospect's problem
Implication questions that probe the prospect to think about the consequences of not solving the problem
Need-payoff questions that encourage the prospect to consider how their situation would change after solving the problem
#2 Customer-Centric Selling
No shocker here—Customer-centric selling puts the customer's convenience, challenges, and goals at the forefront. It's based on the titular book written by Michael T. Bosworth, John R. Holland, and Frank Visgatis.
This sales process focuses on the customer experience and using it to distinguish your brand from the competition. It encourages you to have meaningful conversations with prospects to understand their needs and pain points and then offer appropriate solutions.
Instead of making presentations, you'll hold relevant conversations about how your solution can be modified to match the client's requirements when selling to the prospect.
The customer-centric selling sales philosophy involves:
Targeting critical decision-makers
Asking questions to understand their situation
Aligning their needs with relevant solutions
Pitching your solution
#3 Target Account Selling
The target account selling philosophy focuses on selling to a select few targeted accounts per sales rep instead of targeting a large number of accounts with less focus.
You'll select a specific number of clients who match your ideal customer profile following this sales philosophy. You get to know their portfolios in more detail, allowing you to build and nurture a stronger relationship with the prospect.
Target account selling can be a good fit for sellers who work with large enterprise sales accounts with longer sales cycles and specific total addressable markets. However, the selling method isn't the right fit for broad markets, small-ticket items, or clients with transactional sales cycles.
The target account selling philosophy involves understanding:
What is happening in this account? (Account Intelligence)
What is happening in this market? (Market Intelligence)
Who are your competitors, and what are they doing? (Competitive Intelligence)
What information can you find out through research? (Primary Research)
What is your final selling strategy based on the investigation? (Go-to-market outreach)
#4 N.E.A.T. Selling
N.E.A.T. selling is primarily a qualification process developed by The Harris Consulting Group and Sales Hacker. It's the more flexible and adaptable alternative to the traditional BANT, AI, and ANUM processes when qualifying buyers against your products and services.
N.E.A.T. stands for:
Needs: What are your buyers core needs?
Economic Impact: What is the financial impact of those needs?
Access to Authority: Who can give you access to your targeted organization's key decision-makers?
Timeline: What is the general timeline for making a decision? Is there a compelling deadline or event that could urge a decision?
The sales philosophy is intended to be a flexible guide to help you ask the right qualifying questions as they naturally evolve in the conversations.
The N.E.A.T. business methodology involves:
Figuring out your prospect's needs or challenges
Explaining how your product can help
Finding the right decision-makers
Offering a definitive timeline
#5 MEDDIC
Yes, more acronyms!
The MEDDIC sales philosophy was the brainchild of Dick Dunkel and Jack Napoli when they were at the PTC business back in the 1990s. They developed this sales framework for complex enterprise-level B2B deals to help them qualify customers by finding the answers to six critical questions.
Metrics: What is the economic impact of the solution?
Economic Buyer: Who controls the appropriate budget? Who has the profit and responsibility for the deal?
Decision Criteria: What formal evaluation criteria does the customers organization use when picking a vendor?
Decision Process: What is the buying process like at your prospect's organization?
Identify Pain: What are your prospect's main targets and objectives right now?
Champion: Who is the best person on your team to sell to the opportunity?
MEDDIC is one of the more disciplined, tech-driven, and tightly controlled sales philosophies. It involves:
Focusing on where sales are more likely to occur rather than focusing purely on how to make the sale.
Establishing quantitative standards through metrics and other relevant data
Searching and nurturing a “champion” in the business to advocate for your product or service
P.S: You can also adopt the more advanced version of MEDDIC: MEDDPICC (Metrics, Decision criteria, Decision process, Paper process, Identify pain, Champion, Competition). We have explained the process in more detail here.
#6 The Sandler System
If convincing your prospect feels like ice skating uphill, you should try the Sandler philosophy.
The Sandler methodology challenges the traditional norm of the seller convincing and pursuing prospects. Instead, it states that both parties—the prospect and seller—must be equally invested in a deal.
The first step in the Sandler system is to uncover the customers needs and then customize your sales pitch based on these needs.
Instead of behaving like a typical sales rep, you'll become your prospect's trusted advisor. You'll focus on adding value.
Additionally, you'll also ask questions to identify any challenges in the qualification process. There's a lot of emphasis on relationship building, lead qualification, and deal closing.
The obvious benefit is that you can forego continued engagement if your product or service doesn't match your prospect's problem. You can determine this through accurate analysis of customer requirements and an in-depth needs assessment.
This sales philosophy focuses on one of the five personalities: the Challenger.
As a Challenger salesperson, you have a unique view of the world. You're ready to put in the necessary work to understand your prospect's business and needs, and you love a good debate.
More than 40% of high sales performers use a Challenger-style persona. But even if you're one of the other four sales personalities (the Hard Worker, the Lone Wolf, the Problem-Solver, the Relationship Builder), you can always learn to become a Challenger.
Now the question arises what makes Challengers so successful at selling?
Challengers follow a “teach-tailor-take control” process, which includes:
Teaching your prospects more about significant business problems, new ideas, and astute observations
Tailoring your communication according to your prospect
Taking control of the sale by not being afraid to push back on the customer. Your focus should be on achieving your end goals instead of being “liked” by others
#8 Solution Selling
Solution selling is a popular sales philosophy created by Michael Bosworth in 1988 that does away with a product-centric approach and instead focuses on the benefits, impact, value, and relevance of a tailored solution.
The premise here is simple: salespeople should sell benefits, not features.
This sales model encourages you to focus on your product or service's unique benefits to each prospect. But before that, you have to ask the right questions to understand the main problem your prospect is facing and develop an effective solution.
Here's what a typical sales funnel that follows a solution selling roadmap would look like:
Prospect: Identify potential clients who your product would add value to
Qualify: Evaluate whether the decision-making process fits your sales cycle
Discovery: Find out your prospects specific needs
Add Value: Set up meetings with key decision-makers, where you position yourself as their “champion “
Present: Share a customize solution that emphasizes ROI
Close: Close on a mutually beneficial agreement
Salesman.org's Selling Made Simple Academy™ has a simple philosophy: Make selling simple. We break the selling process down into 33 pieces and give you a simple step-by-step framework to reach success in each piece.
Want to find the sales philosophy that works for you and helps skyrocket your win rate? Get started here.
The Netflix Of Cars Sales? “Inclusive” Sales Training? And More!
Oct 12, 2021
On this week in sales we’ll be looking at: spaced learning, the Netflix of cars sales, “inclusive” sales training and much more!
You'll learn:
Sales news:
CRM Marketing Company Optimove Secures $75 Million
The funding will support continued investment in strategic hiring and M&A, expansion of the company’s Customer Relationship Management (CRM) Marketing platform, and rapid growth.
Optimove’s SaaS technology combines a Customer Data Platform (CDP) with a Multichannel Marketing Hub (MMH) designed for uniquely empowering brands to deliver personalized marketing campaigns to connect and engage with existing customers.
And unlike more traditional solutions that rely on common, rule-based orchestration, Optimove places customer data at its core, layering advanced AI-based campaign orchestration on top.
How 3 college friends built a $1 billion business selling used cars
Carro — a play on the words “car hero” — is a Southeast Asian online auto marketplace designed to simplify car deals using artificial intelligence technology.
In a region with a vast and growing, digital-savvy middle class, price-sensitive consumers were increasingly opting for second hand models.
Expanding middle class combined with low car ownership rates in Southeast Asia were really the main factors that stimulated new car sales.
Carro capitalized on that demand, rolling out its online offering for individuals and wholesale dealers across Indonesia, Thailand, and Malaysia in the years that followed. Meantime, it added end-to-end financial services like loans, insurance and aftercare.
By 2019, inspired by streaming giants Netflix and Spotify, the company launched Singapore’s first car subscription service, allowing users to lease a vehicle for a monthly fee, with tax, warranty, and maintenance all included.
“What we saw was the changing behavior of car ownership. Really the gap in the market was to look for people that want that flexibility. And more importantly, they actually want to try out new cars,” said Tan.
Sales Training: Boot the “Boot Camp” for Spaced Learning
Sales training and return on investment (ROI) have a complicated relationship. While sales leaders generally agree that training is valuable and necessary, it doesn’t always translate to desired results. A big reason for why training doesn’t stick is the way it’s traditionally been delivered and whether it’s reinforced.
Even today, instructors deliver most formal sales training efforts through real-time or virtual workshops. This fire-hose approach of delivering a ton of content at once, or during a few days, covers a lot of information, but most sales reps aren’t able to retain much of it.
SPARXiQ’s Modern Sales Foundations program provides 25 to 30 hours of learning and application exercises, and we recommend consuming the information at the pace of an hour per week.
Employing a virtual version of the flipped-classroom concept, salespeople watch the core content on a topic on their own time before joining together as teams or cohorts to conduct a follow-up reinforcement meeting. These follow-up meetings are best led by the frontline sales manager, who then becomes a continuing resource for the team while also leading by example.
Enableship, a program designed to foster an inclusive community that provides sales enablement training and opportunities for underrepresented groups.
“The enablement space is booming, and yet, it is disproportionately white compared to the U.S. population,” said Donna DeBerry, Seismic Vice President, Global Inclusion
Want Superhuman Sales Skills? Then Try Tech-Powered Sales | Salesman Podcast
Oct 12, 2021
On this episode of the Salesman Podcast Justin Michael and Tony Hughes explain how technology fits into the modern sales process and why you need to start leveraging tech sales to win more deals.
Audio:
[spp-player]
Sponsored by:
Free SalesCode assessment
Learn your strengths and weaknesses in an instant. Taken by over 10,000+ of your competitors. Don't get left behind.
Take the free assessment
Featured on this episode:
Host - Will Barron
Founder of Salesman.org
Guest - Justin Michael, Tony Hughes
Authors: Tech-Powered Sales
Powerful LinkedIn Prospecting: The 4 Dos and the 4 Don’ts
Oct 11, 2021
50% of salespeople are using LinkedIn to beat sales quota. Social selling is the new name of the game.
In fact, 90% of C-level executives ignore cold calls altogether, especially since 84% prefer consulting social media before making purchasing decisions. As a result, cold calling to fill your pipeline is on its last legs.
On the flip side, three-quarters of all sales representatives are not getting any social selling training, and you can see why I wrote this article.
So how do you generate prospects using LinkedIn? And what should we avoid doing on the platform too? So let's get into some LinkedIn prospecting tips.
What is LinkedIn Prospecting?
LinkedIn prospecting is the process of searching for, identifying, and connecting with LinkedIn users to convert them into new potential customers.
Time and again, we have heard the maxim, “It's not about what you know; it's about who you know.” That is true for prospecting on LinkedIn too. People choose to be on LinkedIn to make professional connections, and part of that hunt is being approachable too. This makes LinkedIn the perfect place to find and nurture new potential customers.
But, approaching unsuspecting LinkedIn users and bombarding them with the features of your product won't work. Instead, researching your prospects on LinkedIn and curating a message that resonates with their interests is a better way to start a conversation.
With over 770 million users worldwide in 2021, it is no surprise that LinkedIn is a forerunner in connecting B2B buyers and sellers. But don't let the vast numbers ease you out of your responsibilities. According to Forbes, the three golden rules to prospecting better are:
Have a clear message
Establish your credibility
Demonstrate your expertise
Now lets see how we can implement these golden rules with 8 LinkedIn prospecting tips.
The Dos and Don'ts of Sales Prospecting on LinkedIn
Just like all industries, sales prospecting has its own best practices. So let's go through what works (and doesn't) when prospecting for new business on LinkedIn. Here are 8 tips when prospecting on LinkedIn.
The Dos
1. Optimize your headline
First impressions matter; there are no two ways about it. They are crucial for your success in sales. When using LinkedIn for sales prospecting, your profile is your first impression. And within your profile, your headline is what sells you. So, how (and why) do we go from this:
To this:
If you ignore the headline field, LinkedIn won't leave it blank. Instead, the headline field will revert to your job title and corporation. While that's not a sin, it does not help you stand out. Generating new sales leads means hooking potential customers, and a captivating headline will help you do just that.
Next, pay attention to your audience. Who is it that you're trying to reach? And what message would compel them to act? Another consideration? Don't use technical jargon where your customer won't resonate with it.
Thirdly, make sure your USPs (unique selling points) are right there at the forefront.
Do you provide a better-quality product than your competition? Then put it in your headline. Please keep it captivating but straightforward enough for your customers to learn about you before they respond to your messages.
To sum it up, you have 120 characters to pitch your prospects. Use them wisely, intently, and resourcefully.
2. Keep posting – and updating – content regularly
Posting content regularly will seem daunting at first. With minimum likes and little to no engagement, it can even seem pointless. But we all have to start somewhere.
Posting aimlessly will accelerate your chances of giving up on the process. So follow these tips from the experts at Forbes to build your consistency.
Learn your audience's content expectations
Turn the content into a conversation
Post engaging, consistent content
Leverage up to date content trends
Reciprocate engagement on your content with engagement on your followers
LinkedIn Pulse is the platform's blogging service. Now, imagine your LinkedIn profile is your resume while your LinkedIn Pulse profile is your cover letter. Creating blog-style content on LinkedIn Pulse can help establish you as an expert as the articles you compose show up with your name.
More content posted on the LinkedIn platform also establishes trust and familiarity, which can exponentially increase your chances of gaining prospects. It can also allow you to show off your technical expertise in a friendlier and more compelling way than your CV-like profile permits.
When creating content for lead generation and LinkedIn prospecting, make sure you're focusing on a specific target audience and you build relationships with them. You don't need to invest in a prospecting tool to connect with your decision makers. Relevant content is a strong sales process to turn your audience from potential prospects into an incoming connection request.
3. Use the search option smartly
LinkedIn Search is capable of more than it is given credit for. In addition to searching for names, job descriptions, regions, role titles, and industries, you can also integrate Boolean operators to specify or broaden your search results.
Using operators like Quotation marks, Parentheses, NOT, AND, and OR can help you refine your search and take you faster to where you want to be. Consider the following examples:
Let's say that you want to search for people who have “manager” in their profiles but avoid people who are assistants to managers or senior managers. You can accomplish this by searching for “Manager NOT assistant/senior).”
Alternatively, if you want to broaden your search results, you can use the OR operator. Try searching for “person OR company OR product” (to search for any of these keywords).
Also, consider setting up search alerts for recurring searches that you make every week. These search alters will massively speed up your LinkedIn prospecting efforts.
Search for a specific word string and click the Create search alert button. LinkedIn will then share a list of new search results based on that search string right in your notifications panel.
When you search for prospects and then do cold outreach via a LinkedIn search or InMail messages make sure you build relationships before you go for the pitch.
4. Invest in LinkedIn Sales Navigator
While LinkedIn sales navigator is not a small investment, it can help your LinkedIn prospecting efforts.
LinkedIn Sales Navigator is similar to LinkedIn Search. But LinkedIn Sales Navigator comes packed with more targeting power. For example, while LinkedIn Search allows you to search for a manager within a company, but LinkedIn Sales Navigator goes further and enables you to search for companies with a specific range of employees. Sales Nav allows you to keep filtering and refining your search until you reach your desired level of specificity.
Once you have a result you are interested in; you can save them as well. The ability to save your LinkedIn searches acts similar to search alerts, and you will be notified of new results adhering to your requirements as and when they are updated. These saved searches and alerts allow you to act faster, find those time-critical sales leads and become more effective at sales prospecting.
The Don'ts
1. Non-personalized LinkedIn messages
While cold calling worked in the past, since then, social anxiety has increased. The result? The increased popularity of text messages – and in our case, LinkedIn prospecting messages. Response rates on text messages are 295% higher than on cold calls. But don't spam them.
With all the LinkedIn prospecting tools at your disposal, you're doing it wrong if you are still sending out non-personalized messages. A well-drafted LinkedIn message is your most valuable weapon, second only to a fully established profile. And sending out a templated message with just a personalized introduction is not enough either. Depending on your sales strategy, it might serve you well to customize the body of your message according to the individual requirements and interests of the recipient.
That does not mean to draft long stories referring to their problem and how your product can help solve it. Your best bet? Aim to craft a clever yet subtle message that piques their interest and makes them want to know more. You can then set up a follow-up call to turn the warm lead into a hot sale.
2. Forgetting the sales you've already made
Not adding – or at least inviting – your current customers to your LinkedIn network is a schoolboy error. These customers can add to your credibility by giving recommendations, testimonials and increase your reach exponentially by providing you with quality referrals.
While your current customers may not want to refer you directly, you can still leverage their reach and connections when connected with them on LinkedIn.
3. Overdoing it
Keep it original. Plain and simple. Especially if you don't want your account to be restricted, yes, you read that right. LinkedIn has the authority to suspend accounts or even ban users they deem unfit to be on the platform.
While LinkedIn automation may make your life easier, LinkedIn is smart enough to realize when taking non-human actions. For instance, automating your profile to send out connection requests in the order of hundreds per day will get your account banned. Other examples of lousy automation include visiting a vast number of pages very quickly and generating artificial engagement.
Even without automation, you can still get your account banned with your actions. For instance, sending out too many connection requests to people you do not know will cause LinkedIn to assume that you're using automation tools.
4. Not using – or misusing – LinkedIn groups
Joining LinkedIn groups gives you an avenue to reach prospects with similar interests as your ideal buyer persona.
Even more important than connecting with like-minded people is standing out as an expert in your field. While there are thousands of sales reps on LinkedIn, you can showcase your expertise in your niche by joining and adding value within relevant groups.
What's worse than not being a part of LinkedIn Groups? Joining groups and then misusing them. Don't treat LinkedIn groups like an opportunity to shove pitches down the throats of your potential buyers. Instead, play it strategically and narrow down the groups you can be an active member of. Then slowly increase your influence as an authority within the group.
Conclusion
Social selling on LinkedIn is here to stay. While social selling may seem daunting at first, knowing your way around it helps establish authority, cultivate trust, and generate sales. And that, in the end, is what we're after, right?
So personalize each connection request. Leverage LinkedIn Sales Navigator for your lead generation. Avoid any LinkedIn prospecting tools that don't help you get in front of your target audience. And start generating sales from all of those gold mine LinkedIn profiles.
Tech Sales – The Lucrative Sales Job You’ve Been Looking For
Oct 06, 2021
With each new iPhone, self-driving car, and AI assistant that's released, it's clear that technology is advancing. And it's advancing fast.
In fact, Moore's Law observes that the number of transistors (a.k.a. computing power) that can fit in a given space doubles every two years.
But what does that mean for you, a B2B salesman? It means it's time to get into tech sales.
Technology sales can be a highly lucrative and surprisingly fulfilling role for the right candidate. And if you're from a B2B background, you've already got the skill set needed to thrive.
But what is tech sales exactly? What kind of earning potential does it offer? And is making the transition from your current position worth the trouble?
This guide will take you through the answers to these questions and more. Inside, we'll be looking at what a tech sales job entails, necessary skills, estimated salaries, career paths, and how to break into the industry.
What Is Tech Sales?
Much like sales positions in other industries, tech sales is all about selling. But rather than cars and clothes, high-tech services and devices are the products.
Most buyers will be businesses rather than individuals. As a result, B2B salespeople will be better acquainted with the unique sales process than B2C sales reps.
Technology sales is also a broad term. And companies that employ professional tech sales reps can be as varied as having a few employees or hundreds.
What's attracting so many to the profession today is the lucrative pay and growing market.
Industries You'll Be Working In
“Tech” refers to a wide range of products in the technology industry. Generally, though, tech sales professionals will be selling one or more of the following:
Services – Services are typically hosted on an external server and are accessed through the internet (think data management and cloud storage).
Software – Non-physical products like operating systems and applications fall into this category.
Hardware – This includes physical tech products like computers or communication systems.
Snapshot of the Tech Sales Industry
Sure, the pay is excellent, and there are countless advancement opportunities. But is transitioning to technology sales a good career choice? What about job security?
Have a look at the statistics below to better understand why moving to tech sales is a great long-term move, too.
The global information technology industry is expected to reach $5 trillion in revenue by the end of 2021.
The U.S. Department of Labor estimates a 15% rise in tech employment from 2019 to 2022.
So what exactly does a tech sales representative do, anyway? Below is just a glimpse of what a typical day looks like for a tech salesperson.
Learn About Their Products – Even the smallest of errors can tank a B2B deal. That's why tech sales reps will need to study and understand their products like the back of their hand.
Follow Up With Sales Leads – Maintaining long-term relationships is vital for success in the tech sales sector. Reps will spend a good chunk of their day making calls to businesses, sending out follow-up emails to leads, social selling on LinkedIn and answering lots of client questions.
Conduct Demonstrations – Often the final step before the pitch, a technical demo allows sales professionals to show off the product. Here again, a salesperson will need to know all the ins and outs of their product to demonstrate its value effectively.
Networking – Word-of-mouth deals are typical among tech buyers. And the more people you know, the better equipped you'll be to leverage those relationships to generate new customers.
Do You Need a Tech Background To Get Started In Technology Sales?
You sure don't. A common misconception in the tech industry is that you need to have direct knowledge in tech to thrive. In fact, nearly half (43%) of all open jobs in the industry don't require any technical background.
That being said, you will need a few other particular skills to succeed as a tech sales representative.
Skill Requirements
The skills you need to thrive will vary between companies. But even still, most successful technology sales professionals will have the following qualities.
Excellent Communication – If you have a background in sales, this may come naturally to you. Tech sales representatives need to clearly communicate their products' capabilities, features and value to close the deal. They also need to clearly answer their buyers' questions (there will likely be lots of them).
Ability To Learn Quickly – Success in this role takes an in-depth knowledge of the product. And with tech advancing every day, sales reps in this industry need to keep up. Those who can learn quickly will have the edge over the competition.
A Born Problem Solver – Salesmanship alone may work for low-ticket products. But in the tech sector, a successful deal hinges on a salesperson's ability to demonstrate value. A tech sales rep, will focus on solving a buyer's problem rather than tricking them into saying yes, especially when there are many stakeholders involved.
Highly Motivated – The pressure can be high in tech sales. And if you aren't motivated and ambitious, you can get left behind the pack fast. A successful tech sales rep needs to be comfortable with extended hours in a high-stress environment.
Tech Sales Salary
In such a booming industry, it isn't surprising that successful tech sales professionals are compensated well at most tech companies. Whether you're selling software or technology tools a career in tech can be lucrative.
Average Tech Sales Representative Pay: $53,586 per year (Glassdoor).
Average Tech Sales Pay, All Positions: $77,395 per year (Glassdoor).
Tech Sales Pay Across Major Companies
Beyond the average base bay, tech sales representatives also tend to earn great commissions. Commission rates will, of course, vary between companies. But reps tend to bring in anywhere from $10,000 to $100,000 per year in extra pay.
Tech Sales Career Path
Below are positions that may open up for many tech sales representatives who are interested in having career in tech.
Tech Sales Manager – A tech sales manager leads a team of tech sales representatives. They handle the hiring, training, and development of team members. They're also responsible for ensuring their team meets set quotas and satisfy the needs of their potential customers. They have the best base salary.
2-4 years of experience
$84,527 average annual salary
Business Development Manager – A business development manager, is responsible for seeking out new leads for the company. Their position is focused on establishing and maintaining relationships with potential clients.
2-4 years of experience
$89,381 average annual salary
Regional Sales Manager – A regional tech sales manager oversees a company's sales operations across a geographical region. They may also be responsible for training and working closely with sales managers in their regions.
5-7 years of experience
$97,370 average annual salary
Vice President of Sales – These top-level executives are experienced leaders with a vast knowledge of the company and the sales process. They identify long-term sales targets and goals. And they're tasked with coordinating all efforts to achieve those goals.
8+ years of experience
$185,091 average annual salary
How to Break Into Tech Sales
The tech sales field is highly competitive—there's no getting around it. It isn't just straight selling talent that separates the candidates for each tech sales job. There are a few things you can do to stand out from other applicants.
Cultivate an Understanding of B2B Sales – If you're already familiar B2B sales, you have a leg-up on the competition from the start. If not, you'll likely need some business training as you start your new sales role. B2B sales are often more significant and much more complex than B2C. And that means having a different set of skills even if you are starting at an entry level.
Get a Feel for the Culture – The types of sales reps that thrive the most in tech help their customers solve a problem. If you're the “I can sell a glass of water to a drowning man” type, then buckle up for a severe culture shift. Learn to concentrate on helping clients, not tricking them into buying.
Network With Other Tech Sellers – Intensive networking is a surefire way of breaking into a career in tech. Connect with other tech sellers on platforms like LinkedIn and hiring managers at the tech companies you're interested in working at. And start following their content to get more acquainted with the language and topic matter used in the industry.
Bone up on the Fundamentals – If you come from a B2B background, you're already intimately familiar with the principles of selling. But given the massive price tags of most tech deals, you'll want to make sure you revisit those fundamentals well before interviews. And of course, do plenty of homework on your interviewer's target customer, product catalog, and brand personality.
Are You Equipped for the Shift to Tech Sales?
The tech industry is only getting bigger. There are more sales positions at tech companies than ever before. And if you're considering transitioning into tech sales, now's the time. It pays well. It offers plenty of upward mobility. And for salespeople more interested in solving problems than selling, it can be very fulfilling.
Hopefully, this guide has helped you figure out if tech sales is for you. And if it is, use the tips outlined above to make your transition a successful one.
How To Master The Art Of Selling (With Data, Numbers And Science)
Oct 04, 2021
So many skills, so little time! This may be what you are thinking regardless of where you are in your journey as a sales rep. Since sales is continually evolving, there will always be new information and skills to learn.
If you seek ways to improve your sales skills, you may have typed “how to master the art of selling” in your browser. Unfortunately, a lot of the results were probably related to a best selling book by the same name written by Tom Hopkins (one of the greatest sales trainers) back in the 80's.
Since this book was written about 40 years ago, sales has changed. The book isn't as relevant as it once was. The basics apply, but buyers have changed dramatically. There is also more to modern sales than the art of selling. Selling anything today requires a greater emphasis on the science of the sale.
Instead of relying on your innate skills like the gift of gab and gut feel, you need to learn to:
Understand your buyers
Measure and analyze sales data
Test and evaluate your market assumptions
So with that said, how do you master the art of selling?
Understand your buyers
It used to be that navigating the sales process when trying to master the art of selling was the only path to follow to close more deals. But, today, the focus is the buying process instead.
This research makes buyers more informed than they used to be when sales reps were the sole source of product or service information. As a result, modern B2B buyers now have higher expectations of sales professionals.
The new buyer's expectations include:
Understanding their business, industry, and common challenges
Excellent communication skills – written content, video, phone, and in-person
Focusing on post-sale success
Providing perspective and insights
Let's take a look at 5 skills that are needed to meet these buyer requirements.
1. Do your research
Before speaking with a prospect, you need to do your research. Potential customers expect you to know their business, industry, and typical challenges that they're facing.
It also helps if you also keep current with what is happening in the marketplace. And it would be best if you were up to date on your competitors' product and customer support and how it compares to your company's and customer support too.
When practicing active listening, start by asking open-ended questions.
Then, listen more than you speak. This means listening to what the prospect is saying and the conveying feeling the potential customer shares with you.
Acknowledge and confirm your understanding of what the buyer has said by nodding or saying “um hum” so they know you are listening.
Be sure that you are focused on what the prospect is saying and that you are not thinking about what you want to say next.
Keep the prospect engaged in conversation by asking clarifying questions. Clarifying questions shows the prospect that you are interested in learning more from them.
Confirm your understanding by summing up what the prospect said and relaying it back to them.
Active listening builds trust and helps you develop a better relationship with your prospects.
3. Dig deeper
Whenever you are speaking with a lead, you must ask clarifying questions to gain a complete picture of the potential customer's situation, needs, challenges, and goals.
These clarifying questions include learning how the prospect's business would benefit from reaching their desired outcome and how the prospect would benefit personally as well.
And don't forget to discuss money with the potential customer too regarding the availability of funds and their budget for the project. You don't want to advance too far in the sales process to find out that the prospect cannot buy due to a lack of cash.
Uncovering more thorough information makes it easier for you to qualify or disqualify prospects, so you don't waste valuable selling time on deals that are unlikely to close. These potential customers are not a good fit for your product and would not fully benefit from your solution.
4. Focus on the long-term
Don't only focus on closing on a particular sale. Don't force the deal if the prospect isn't the best fit for your product or service. Instead, move on and spend your time and efforts on opportunities that match your ideal customer profile.
Your ideal customer profile defines the characteristics of prospects that will benefit most from your product. These are the potential customers who will be the most satisfied over the long term. Doing the right thing for the customer during the sales process is a win-win for you and the prospect.
And after you close a deal with customers, remember that they don't disappear. On the contrary, they want you to maintain a relationship with them by continuing to support them.
5. Provide insights and solutions
The next step of learning how to master the art of selling is to guide the prospect through their decision-making process by arming them with insights. This goes against the usual advice on how to master the art of selling because we're going to leverage science and data instead of anecdotes.
When you understand your potential client's situation, challenges, desired end state, and personal and professional benefits to solving their problems, you know exactly what information is needed to complete the buying process.
You also can create the best solution and know confidently that the prospect will sign on the dotted line.
Data is valuable for mastering the art of sales to evaluate your progress toward goals, find more leads, and gain insights when testing and evaluating sales techniques.
Track sales progress
Let's look at how measuring and analyzing helps you track your sales progress. If you're not already tracking your sales progress you need to update your sales training.
If you are doing this manually, start with your sales goals. You want to determine if you will hit your target by the end of the month. Then, look at the numbers to figure it out.
Are you connecting with enough leads to hit your number?
Are you converting enough of those leads to prospects by scheduling a discovery call?
What percentage of these prospects are moving forward with a demo and then a proposal?
Ultimately, how many prospects are you closing? And what is the average deal size?
Armed with this information, you can analyze it and determine how many leads you need to connect with to close the correct number of deals to hit your monthly, quarterly, and annual goals.
Start doing this early and often so you can fine-tune your efforts to ensure you hit your sales targets.
If you measure everything you do, you'll be able to identify vulnerabilities and work on improving those areas.
Improve sales techniques
Lets go beyond traditional, classroom based sales training. An effective way to use analysis to improve your sales techniques is by using call reviews. Call reviews are the act of listening to call recordings to measure your progress in improving specific elements of your sales call technique.
Call reviews can be completed alone or in a group of peers where the call is critiqued to discuss what went well during the call and what could be done to improve it.
Call reviews can also be done by sharing call recordings with a skilled peer or your manager and requesting feedback for improvement.
Sharing call recordings can also be used for skill building when listening to examples of best practices to model in your own sales calls.
Test and evaluate
A/B testing is a tried-and-true practice employed by marketing professionals to improve emails, landing pages, and marketing messages.
Sales reps can benefit from using this process as well to adapt and change the messaging you use. This will help you continually improve your results. Examples of what testing can be used for include:
Improving email open rates
Increasing responses to voice messages
Improving close rates
Optimize facets of sales calls, scripts or emails with testing like:
Whichever element you are testing, the process is the same.
Start by selecting what you want to optimize, such as your call script. Then use two different greetings or introductions such as a question versus a statement such as:
Is this a good time?
I'm sure you are busy, so I'll keep this brief.
Test it by using the two scripts on a sampling of at least 100 calls or more. The larger the number, the more accurate the assessment will be.
To measure the effectiveness of the two scripts, you need to analyze the data. You can determine which option worked better by looking at the percentage of leads with the desired outcome. This is also known as the conversion rate.
To find this information, you might run a report in your CRM to collect all the call outcomes for the two groups of calls made using the two scripts. The one with the more significant number of conversions is the more useful script.
Conclusion
When learning how to master the art of selling to the modern buyer, you need to leverage scientific methods. You need to go beyond Tom Hopkins original book on the topic. You need some new skills and a williness to take on some analytical challenges.
It used to be sufficient to lean on your innate skills to sell anything, today's sales reps require additional skills.
You need to understand your buyer so that you can give the prospect what they want. This builds trust and aids in the development of a longer-term relationship.
Monitoring your progress by measuring and analyzing key performance indicators makes it possible for you to fine-tune your performance along the way so you can meet your goals.
Testing variations of call scripts, emails, and voice mails leads to incremental improvements in the results of your efforts.
Leverage these scientific methods on a routine basis to consistently improve your sales skills.
Salespeople Avoid Big Opportunities? Real-time Zoom Assistants?
Oct 03, 2021
On this week in sales we’ll be looking at; the counter intuitive science behind why salespeople avoid big opportunities, real-time virtual sales assistants on Zoom calls, the cutest dog in the world and much more!
You'll learn:
News:
Defy Partners leads $3M round into sales intelligence platform Aircover
The company aims to give sales teams insights relevant to closing the sale as they are meeting with customers. Aircover’s conversational AI software integrates with Zoom and automates parts of the sales process to lead to more effective conversations.
Zoom’s CTO Brendan – “One of the goals of launching the Zoom SDK was to provide developers with the tools they need to create valuable and engaging experiences for our mutual customers and integrations ecosystem,”
They created Aircover to be a software tool on top of video conferencing that performs real-time transcription of the conversation and then analysis to put the right content in front of the sales person at the right time based on customer issues and questions.
This means that another sales expert doesn’t need to be pulled in or an additional call scheduled to provide answers to questions.
Andrew Levy, CEO Airzoom – “We are anticipating that knowledge and parsing it out at key moments to provide more leverage to subject matter experts,” “It’s like a sales assistant coming in to handle any issue.”
Bigtincan share price has soared 50% higher in the past 6 months
Sales enablement software developer Bigtincan shares have soared over 50% higher (to $1.33, as at the time of writing).
Revenues for the year ended 30 June 2021 were up 42% (to $43.9 million). However, increased operating expenses meant that the company’s net loss increased year on year, from $12.2 million in FY20 to $13.9 million in FY21.
But the really big news came a few days prior to the release of the company’s results. That’s when Bigtincan announced that it was acquiring US-based sales coaching software developer Brainshark, Inc. for US$86 million.
Brainshark has been around since 1999 and already employs 180 staff. It has more than 900 corporate customers, including international brands like JPMorgan Chase & Co. (NYSE: JPM), PepsiCo, Inc. (NASDAQ: PEP) and Zoom Video Communications Inc (NASDAQ: ZM).
Bigtincan estimated that annual recurring revenues for the combined entities would reach at least $119 million by the end of FY22. By comparison, Bigtincan’s ARR at the end of FY21 was just $53.1 million.
Challenger, Corporate Visions, Sandler and more than 20 leading sales organizations launch new Enablement Packages on the Highspot Marketplace.
Jake Braly, VP Strategic Alliances and Partner Sales, Highspot. – “Consistent rep performance unlocks repeatable revenue growth. Achieving it requires a prescriptive approach to positive behavior change and skill development,”
“In the same way that the App Store lets a user download apps, the Highspot Marketplace lets you download content and training packages from leading sales methodology firms directly into your Highspot environment. This is a huge win for both sales leaders and sales enablement teams that want to scale adoption of sales methodologies.”
Researchers published a new paper in the Journal of Marketing that tests a framework of salespeople's decision-making while prospecting.
The study is titled “Why Salespeople Avoid Big-Whale Sales Opportunities”.
Contrary to the intuition that salespeople gravitate toward big-whale sales opportunities, in reality they often avoid them. This new study integrates contingent decision-making and conservation-of-resources theories to develop and test a framework of salespeople's decision-making while prospecting.
The researchers make three contributions to marketing literature.
First, by showing that salespeople conduct rational benefit–cost analyses to decide what opportunity to pursue, they shed light on the tension underlying such decisions and challenge the intuition that salespeople gravitate toward large opportunities (i.e., big whales). The benefits can be intrinsic and extrinsic, while the costs can be explicit (e.g., resources such as time and effort) or implicit (i.e., opportunity costs).
Second, the study demonstrates that salespeople use a calibration decision-making strategy (i.e., calculating expected benefits by accounting for conversion uncertainty) for solution selling at the portfolio level. Counterfactual analyses show that in solution selling, ignoring the calibration effect leads to serious under- or overestimation of conversion rates, sometimes up to 100%.
Third, the findings about the contingencies of the calibration effect pinpoint important biases in salesperson decision-making. Specifically, when faced with high levels of conversion uncertainty, high performers and inexperienced salespeople perform much worse because their resource-conserving tendency makes them more sensitive to the costs associated with uncertainty.
Simulations reveal that when high performers or inexperienced salespeople believe their portfolio magnitude is large and conversion uncertainty is low, their quota attainment can improve by as much as 50%. These results call for further research to apply decision-making theories to personal selling when efforts are costly and resources limited.
Of course, there are a wide variety of sales positions available. These include retail, automobile, insurance, real estate, advertising, and inside sales. And there are many different sales titles too, such as –
Sales development rep (SDR)
Account executive (AE)
Account manager (AM)
If you're considering getting into sales, it's best to understand these positions so you can figure out where you fit in. And since there is an average of 2.6 AEs for every SDR, you may see more job postings for this position. So, let's take a look at what an Account Executive does day-to-day.
What is an account executive?
Account executives are part of a sales team. It is a job title found primarily at advertising agencies, public relations firms, financial services companies, and technology companies.
Responsibilities for account executives vary from company to company. Some are primarily responsible for building great relationships with potential customers and closing business for their organization. Other account executives support existing client accounts to manage, grow, and renew those accounts. And some account executives are responsible for both closing new business and managing existing accounts.
Although they are called executives, they're not executives in the traditional sense because they don't typically manage a team. Instead, they represent the company as the primary company contact for new and existing clients.
What does an account executive do?
An account executives duties vary depending on the specific business and industry they work in. For example, if they're responsible for closing new business and managing existing accounts, activities they engage in include:
Negotiating and closing business with new customers.
Retaining existing customers by supporting them and developing strong client relationships.
Growing existing customer accounts to increase revenue.
Coordinating all tasks related to their accounts.
Identifying new potential clients for the company.
Developing sales strategies based on industry trends and data.
Guiding potential customers through the buying process.
Preparing for and attending client meetings, including discovery calls, product demos, and presentations.
What is a typical account executive job description?
The ideal candidate for an Account Executive position can identify and attract new potential customers. Then they need to close the business, onboard new clients, and manage the customer relationship moving forward. This involves selling and relationship-building skills to maintain and grow customer business for the company.
Additional details you might see in a typical account executive job description include:
Educate and guide prospects throughout the buying process
Manage a pipeline of qualified leads and build relationships with prospective customers
Work with existing assigned accounts to retain and grow their business
Close business with new and existing customers while meeting designated targets
Work collaboratively with marketing and product teams to develop sales strategies for new and existing products
Project management experience for senior account executive roles can be requested as well.
An Account Executive's day-to-day routine
Although a particular sales position may sound attractive, most job descriptions don't tell you much about a day in the life of a role.
The job description may allude to the type of software you'll be using or include a broad description of responsibilities but they usually don't provide enough detail.
But you must understand how you'll be spending your time before you apply for an AE position. So, what does an account executive do?
An account executives day is anything but boring. It is action-packed and non-stop from start to finish. No two days are exactly the same, but an AE typically starts their day early, around 7:30 AM, and ends around 4:30 PM with a few off-hours activities as well.
An account executive's day includes tasks like :
Checking and responding to emails from customers and prospects to ensure timely communications
A daily sales meeting to solve problems and set the day's priorities
Social selling on LinkedIn
Research and preparation for the day's calls
Discovery calls with new accounts
Product demos
Proposal preparation
Email activities to follow up on existing deals in progress, check in with current customers, respond to questions, and start a conversation with a prospect.
Then there are internal meetings sprinkled throughout their weekly and monthly schedules, including weekly departmental kick-offs, team meetings, and one-on-ones with their manager.
Plus, there may be after-hours activities to handle, such as networking events or calling executives at the end of their days around 7 or 8 PM
Most highly successful AEs carefully plan their schedules and employ time-blocking to efficiently use their time to ensure productivity. Time blocking is where you block out specific parts of your calendar to complete a particular task.
What is the difference between an Account Executive and an Account Manager?
If you've been looking at job postings, you may be wondering if an AE is the same as an AM. Although they both work directly with customers, AEs often are responsible for converting potential clients into new customers.
In some organizations, Account Managers take over the customer support role from an Account Executive. But in other companies, an AE will continue to work with prospects after they become paying customers.
What skills does an account executive need?
An account executive needs a wide range of skills to succeed, such as:
Communication and interpersonal skills: Excellent verbal and written correspondence with clients is a large part of an account executive's job. Clear communications significantly impact an AEs ability to maintain and grow client relationships.
Empathy: The ability to put yourself in the prospect's shoes, understand their challenges and their desire to resolve them, is critical to fostering strong relationships.
Problem-solving: The ability to work through issues and identify solutions on your own can significantly influence an AEs success. You often need to think on your feet without the assistance of your manager.
Organization: The average account executive juggles a multitude of different activities daily. To successfully navigate each day requires effective organization and time management skills.
Perseverance: Account executives encounter many challenges each day. It's important not to give up and persist until reaching goals and targets.
Sales skills: Excellent sales skills are necessary to win new clients and sell new services to existing clients.
Teachable: This is more of a characteristic, but it is essential to achieve success as an account executive. With product updates, market changes and evolving sales strategies, there is always something new to learn in sales. It is important to have the desire to learn and continually grow.
Management: This is typically for senior account executive positions but a background in sales team management can be valuable.
These skills are essential as AEs encounter various personalities while striving to meet buyer expectations and hit monthly or quarterly revenue targets.
What is a typical Account Executive salary?
Clearly important for anyone on a job search for an AE role, account executives are typically paid a base salary plus commissions. According to the Bridge Group, the average base salary for an AE is $66 thousand with on-target earnings (OTE) or an estimated annual income of $132 thousand per year. This estimated amount is reached when quota targets are hit.
Of course, these are averages, and an AE's salary varies based on industry, organization, and geography. According to Glassdoor, account executive salaries can start as low as $35 thousand a year.
Skills to include on an account executive resume
Each time you apply for an account executive role, you should customize your resume to ensure your wording aligns with what the potential employer is looking for. When you take the time to do this, the preliminary screening software won't disqualify your resume for lacking specific keywords or skills.
For example, if a job description mentions the same skill several times, then chances are that will be one of the skills the Applicant Tracking Software (ATS) will be looking for. And if your resume doesn't include it you could be prescreened out before the hiring manager ever sees your resume.
Of course, you want to be honest about your skills, but if you possess the skills designated in the job posting and don't list them on your resume, you'll miss out. On the other hand, don't go overboard when listing skills on your resume.
Listing more than your top five – 10 skills could also be a red flag to the hiring manager or recruiter reviewing your resume. So, which account executive skills should you include on your resume? Some of the most common skills employers look for on AE resumes:
There are many ways to get account executive jobs. First, it helps to have a bachelor's degree or more in business administration, marketing, communications, or public relations.
A common way to become an account executive is to gain experience and develop contacts in an entry-level role, such as a sales representative or account coordinator. Then you can transition into an account executive role from there. For example, some organizations have junior account executives who work underneath a senior account executive. And if you excel in that role, you'll be able to advance through the account executive ranks.
MEDDPICC Your Way To Sales Success: A Step-by-Step Guide
Sep 27, 2021
Learning about your customer, asking discovery questions , scoring leads… you already know the basics of sales qualification.
You’re past that; you want more.
You need an effective sales methodology—one that can help you find more qualified buyers, quicker. MEDDPICC can help you achieve just that. We’re talking 30% growth rates in saturated markets and 250%+ in start-ups.
If you are struggling to qualify quality leads, try out the MEDDPICC sales methodology and set your organization up for success.
NOTE: MEDDIC™ and MEDDPICC™ are branded training products in the UK and are sold in the UK by Andy Whyte (MEDDIC.com). We do not do any training or sell any products related to MEDDIC™ and MEDDPICC™.
What Does MEDDPICC Stand For?
MEDDPICC stands for: Metrics, Economic buyer, Decision criteria, Decision process, Paper process, Identify pain, Champion, and Competition.
Here’s a brief explanation of the MEDDPICC acronym:
Metrics — What are the economic benefits of your solution?
Economic buyer — Who makes the buying decisions? Which person has the ultimate authority?
Decision criteria — What factors drive the purchase decision?
Decision process — How are decisions being made in the company?
Paper process — What process is being followed to keep the paperwork in order?
Identify pain — What pain points you must resolve?
Champion — Which person or end-user has a level of power, influence, and credibility?
Competition — Who is your competition?
Pretty cool right?
Now, let’s dive deeper into the MEDDPICC sales process.
What Is MEDDPICC Anyway?
MEDDPICC is one of the most popular B2B enterprise sales qualification methodologies. It can help you identify high-quality prospects. It’s a checklist of the following:
Information you need to know
Tasks you need to do
Relationships with people you need to nurture
MEDDPICC vs. MEDDIC
Despite having almost the same name, MEDDPICC and MEDDIC are (slightly) different from one another.
MEDDPICC is a variation of MEDDIC. The updated methodolog is expanded to take care of more nuanced needs for a complex B2B sale.
Why Should You Use MEDDPICC?
The MEDDPICC sales process is a tried-and-tested strategy that helped many sales professionals around the globe achieve extraordinary results. You can use it to:
Collect quantifiable and actionable high-quality data to improve forecast and overall results
Review and remedy gaps in sales campaigns, shortening the overall sales cycle
Help sales management focus on coaching rather than micromanaging
MEDDPICC ensures you don’t overlook the more vital parts of the sales process while simultaneously standardizing your sales methodology, leading to consistently good results.
The 8 Letters of MEDDPICC Framework: A Step-by-Step Guide
Checking off every letter in MEDDPICC can seriously increase your chances of closing deals. If you can’t tick off each letter of the framework then you know which areas require your attention.
Let’s look at how you can check off every letter in the MEDDPICC framework and achieve your sales objectives.
1. Metrics
Metrics in MEDDPICC is all about the real, quantifiable numbers—the end value, KPI improvements, the hard dollars—your prospect hopes to achieve. For instance, instead of giving you a vague goal of “increasing win rates,“ your prospect will tell you they want to increase their win rates by 10% in 2021.”
Direct and specific financial goals.
When you know the benefits that matter most to your prospect, you can customize your offering to the buyer. You can encourage them to buy by leveraging your product or service as the best solution to help them achieve their goals.
Be sure to identify every percentage of improvement your solution can bring to increase your offering’s appeal in the prospect's eyes.
Questions to consider:
What goals does the prospect want to achieve? How can you help them?
How do they measure their success?
Which areas can be improved to help the prospect save time, boost productivity, and accelerate revenue?
What percentage of improvement do you anticipate upon making the changes? If successful, how much revenue will the business generate or save?
2. Economic Buyer
The economic buyer is the ultimate decision-maker. They are someone who makes buying decisions in the company and signs the final contract.
Find out who has the budget, the power to spend it. Or better yet, who can create the budget.
You want to meet the economic buyer as early as possible in the sales process. Have conversations with the economic buyer to learn about their preferences and decision-making process.
If you can’t speak directly to the economic buyer, work with your point of contact to understand their mindset and viewpoint. What are their expectations and priorities? How do they make buying decisions?
Tailor your pitch to their motivations. Share how you can solve their pain points, then build trust and demonstrate the ROI. Trust us, you will get their attention! And when you score an economic buyer’s backing, no one will refute your product’s worth.
Questions to consider:
Are you talking to the decision-maker?
What does success look like for them?
Is there anyone else involved in the final decision?
How can you customize your sales pitch so it appeals to the decision-maker?
How do you proceed if your offering fulfills the success criteria?
3. Decision Criteria
Next, you have to understand the decision-making mentality of the prospect.
Different buyers have different ideals. Your job is to present your solution in a way that makes the prospect think it adheres perfectly to their exact wants and needs. But before you do this, you have to know what your buyer wants.
Suppose you and your partner go to buy a house. While you want big rooms, your partner wants a property in the city.
Now, if your realtor shows you a spacious property in the countryside, it’s highly likely the deal won’t go through, despite the big rooms. Your partner specifically wants to stay in the city, so a country house will not appeal to them.
The same logic applies here. You have to know your buyer and understand what will get them excited about your product.
A good tip is to figure out what’s on your prospect’s wishlist and what outcomes they’re looking for from your solution. For example, if you’re selling software, your prospects would use criteria like ease of use, integration facilities, onboarding, price, and potential ROI.
Customize your pitch to prove how your product or service meets all the criteria. Even better if you can come up with things your buyer doesn't have on their wishlist, but should.
Questions to consider:
What are the driving factors behind your prospect’s buying decisions?
If your prospect had a wishlist for your solution, what important criteria would be on it?
How can you tailor your sales pitch to highlight these criteria?
What else can you do to justify this purchase?
4. Decision Process
While the Decision criteria describe the factors your prospect’s company looks for, the Decision process tells you about how they make a decision.
This specific MEDDPICC guideline will help you understand the prospects' decision-making process , so your deal doesn’t hit any roadblocks.
Ask your contact to walk you through their typical buying process—
Who’s involved in the meetings
What paperwork is required
What kind of approval processes takes place before closing the deal
How long this usually takes.
This knowledge will help you forecast your sales process accurately. Without it, you won’t know how to actually win your deal.
Questions to consider:
Who do you need to talk to when finalizing decisions?
Is there a formal procedure or paper process involved before approval?
How do they come to a final buying decision?
5. Paper Process
The point of adding a P to MEDDIC is to help sales reps understand the paper process and the associated timeline. You can then make more accurate predictions, and hence, improve your chances of closing a deal.
Then there’s also the fact that the larger the organization, the more complex the paperwork. So it’s better to sort the paperwork details ASAP and stay ahead of legal departments and administrative tasks, avoiding further delays.
Questions to consider:
What is the process of getting everything completed and signed?
How long do the prospect’s legal processes take?
Who all are involved, and are there any frame agreements in place?
Are there any mandatory terms and conditions?
Which contractual paperwork serves as the basis of negotiation?
6. Identify Pain
Your prospects will only buy your solution if they deem it valuable, which depends on whether your product or service can solve a particular pain point. But, if you don’t know that pain point, how can you connect their problem to your solution?
A strong pain impacts the customer in terms of time, cost, revenue, or risk if it isn’t solved within a time frame. Even a weak pain can cause delays or reduced budget. Pain, along with a Champion, is one of the two major qualifiers in the discovery phase you need to have if you want to win more deals.
Most sales reps make the mistake of assuming. They try to connect the dots from past conversations and then make big recommendations to their prospects without truly understanding their prospects' current circumstances.
Not only is this lazy behavior, but it’s also not very effective. Instead, keep asking yourself, “What happens next?”
This will help you identify your prospect’s pain points, allowing you to tailor your pitch to explain how your product or service can alleviate that pain.
For example, if your prospect has low website traffic, try to figure out how much revenue they are losing because of it. Then explain how your offering can help eliminate this problem and boost traffic.
Questions to consider:
What pain points does the prospect have?
How does the pain point affect the prospect’s bottom line?
What are the consequences of leaving the pain point unattended?
7. Champion
During the sales process, you will have lots of questions. What do prospects like about your solution? What are they thinking? Is the decision turning out in your favor?
While praying and wishing to find out answers won’t help you, engaging with your champion will.
Your champion is your inside person—your point of contact or an end-user who stands to benefit most from your solution. The person who backs you up in front of decision-makers and the economic buyer. Your champion will give you valuable information and support to help you close the deal.
You must choose your champion wisely. Their respect and influence (or lack thereof) within the buying organization can influence your chances of winning the sale.
Once you do find the right person, foster and nurture a trusting relationship with them. Educate them about your solution, present information that helps them advocate for you, or ask them to prep for meetings with you.
Questions to consider:
Who has the most to gain by your offering?
What is this person’s interest in your offering?
Does this person have influence?
Can they explain your product benefits as they relate to the company?
8. Competition
Competition is the most underestimated risk factor when it comes to securing and closing a deal.
Even when your prospect assures you that they aren’t looking into other solutions, the purchasing team may still request additional quotes to compare prices, or decision-makers can ask for comparisons. It's human psychology.
But that's not all.
Competition can go beyond your rival company’s solution. It could also refer to the dreaded status quo, where the prospect has an “if it isn’t broken why fix it” mentality.
It’s why you must know your competitive advantages and understand how the competition is solving your prospect’s pain points and meeting their success metrics.
Additionally, be honest when talking about your competition and their pros and cons. Talking bad about your rivals and praising your own solution can be tempting, but resist you must always take the high road.
Questions to consider:
Who are you competing against and why?
Do your prospects have a do-it-yourself (DIY) approach?
Is there anyone championing your competition?
Time To Implement MEDDPICC in Your Sales Job
Nothing is guaranteed in the world of sales. You can do everything right and still lose the deal. But using MEDDPICC will increase the chances of you closing more deals and accelerating revenue.
MEDDPICC can help you identify your strengths and USPs, as well as uncover blind spots and weaknesses.
How To Build Rapport in Sales: 4 Steps To Earn Trust Quickly
Sep 24, 2021
Let's say that on paper, you have everything you need to blow past your quota. Your pipeline's packed to the brim with leads. Your product solves a legitimate buyer problem. Plus, everyone who gets on the phone with you is happy to chat.
And yet, you're still struggling to close. Even worse, your sales leads seem to be going cold the minute you start the conversation.
So, what's the problem?
The problem is, you're not building rapport before popping the closing question. And your monthly numbers (and your earning potential) are hurting because of it.
This guide will help you build rapport the instant your leads jump on the phone. We'll be looking at four simple steps you can start taking to up your rapport game today. We'll also go over a few examples along the way so you can see the steps in action.
What Is Rapport (And Why Does It Matter)?
What does rapport mean in sales anyway? First and foremost, it means to trust—trust that you're telling the truth. Trust that you're listening to your customer's needs. And trust that your product really will solve the buyer's problems.
For salespeople, building trust starts as a losing battle. Indeed, HubSpot Research found that 3% of buyers trust salespeople—just 3%!
It's clear, then, that salespeople like you have to work extra hard to build rapport. Because truth be told, you're likely starting the conversation with someone who's already skeptical of your motives.
So, how can having a better rapport with your leads help you close more sales?
It Builds a Long-Term Relationship: The purchasing process for B2B buyers can be exceedingly long. B2B sellers report that it's taking longer to close sales than a year earlier (35.52% longer, in fact). The strength of your relationship (determined by your rapport) is the anchor that keeps those leads from drifting away over time.
It Opens the Door to Understanding the Buyer's Needs: There is lots of corporate jargon in the B2B sales world. And cutting through the “synergy” speak to truly understand a potential customer's needs can be challenging. Building rapport with your lead breaks down the jargon wall. The prospect can then talk honestly and frankly about what they're looking for.
It Fuels Referrals: Referrals are a B2B salesperson's best friend. Referrals are easier to close; they spend more per purchase and are more loyal than regular sales leads. Plus, 84% of B2B decision-makers start the buying process with a referral. The more rapport you have with your customers, the more likely they'll be to throw referrals your way.
How To Build Rapport in Sales: 4 Simple Steps
Now that we've determined why building rapport in sales process is so important let's dive into how to do it.
There are four simple steps to build rapport with your potential buyers.
1. Find That Phatic Sweet Spot
The term “phatic communication” describes a conversation that has a social function. Talking about the weather, asking about the buyer's family, and commenting on last week's game are examples of phatic communication. And they're vital for building rapport with your buyers when you're on a sales call.
It's a shame, then, that some salespeople blow right past this valuable step. Some salespeople think since the topic isn't business, it has no place in the conversation. But in reality, small talk is the first way you can show you're interested in the customer, not just the commission. And that, of course, builds trust in your sales conversations.
Don't be afraid to talk about yourself too. No one likes talking to a robot. Giving your potential customer a small window into your life shows you're human. But be careful about blabbing on about yourself too much, though. No one likes a conversation hog either.
So, be sure to start your sales calls with a minute or two of phatic communication questions that will get them talking.
Example Questions
“How was your holiday weekend? We did nothing but barbecue and lounge for two days straight. How about you?
“So, how did you get into [department] over at [company name]?”
“I heard your team just achieved record numbers last year. What's your secret?”
2. Stay Genuine
Everyone knows that played-out cliché about the used car salesman. He's sneaky. He's slimy. And he'll do anything to get his prospect into a car today. But do you know what it is about that caricature that leaves people feeling so on edge? It's that he can't be trusted. He isn't skilled at building rapport.
Customers can smell a hungry salesperson. And they can tell when you're faking enthusiasm to manipulate them and get on their good side. So in a world full of skeptical buyers, the only way to build long-lasting relationships is by being a genuine salesperson.
So cut the act. Drop the overly confident persona. Eliminate the weird body language. And use the tips below to stay genuine every step of the way.
Tips to Stay Genuine:
Be yourself. Don't give false compliments or present yourself as something you're not.
Speak on the same level as the buyer. In the words of the famous marketer David Ogilvy, “The customer is not a moron. She's your wife.”
Be careful not to be over-the-top friendly. It could bring about distrust.
3. Learn To Listen More
Odds are you're a great talker. For most salespeople, it's why they got into the business in the first place. And while the gift of gab can undoubtedly come in handy, the art of keeping quiet is associated with better sales numbers.
According to revenue intelligence company Gong, top sales reps spend about 93% more time listening than bottom performing reps.
Just like any enjoyable conversation, sales calls should be two-way streets. On the one hand, listening more (rather than monologuing about the benefits of your product) helps your lead feel valued. It isn't a race to the pitch—which in all likelihood, they'll end up declining if you rush to get to.
But beyond that, more acute listening lets you fully understand the buyer's underlying needs. They're revealing the information that's going to shape their purchase decision. The more information you can take in, the more you can tailor your final pitch to meet the buyer's needs.
Try engaging in more active listening on your next sales call. This four-step process involves:
Truly listening to the prospect.
Confirming that you heard them correctly.
Repeating the content and the feeling of the prospect's words back to them.
Asking relevant follow-up questions to clarify your understanding of their situation further.
4. Build on Shared Experiences
People are more open to your ideas when they feel like they're on your team. It's why so many salespeople mirror the mannerisms and speech cadence of potential customers. Like attracts like. People buy from people they feel similar to.
You can use this human tendency to your advantage when building rapport with your prospects by tapping into shared experiences.
Early on in your rapport-building conversations, lean on your shared relationships. As mentioned before, the overwhelming majority of B2B decision-makers start the buying journey with a referral. That allows you to create more shared experiences by bringing that referral into the conversation.
Ask them how they know the referrer.
Talk a bit about how you helped the referrer solve their problem.
Using active listening later on in the conversation is a fantastic way to build a shared experience.
Together, you and the lead can work to define their needs further and develop a suitable solution. And you can leverage that shared experience to boost rapport along the way.
Example of Building a Shared Experience with Active Listening:
Seller: “So what I'm hearing is that your current CRM has worked well for years. But it doesn't have the functionality you need to carry out the new initiatives your marketing department has developed. Is that right?”
Buyer: “That's right. So we need a platform that offers the same functionality but also has more advanced lead tracking, forecasting, and contact management.”
Seller: “Great, I think we're on the same page then. It sounds like our platform is going to be a perfect fit. Can I give you a demo?”
Buyer: “Yep, I'd love to see it in action.”
Building Rapport = Building the Sale
Building rapport is essential for establishing trust and convincing the lead that your product is the solution to their problem. Using the four simple strategies above, you can build rapport quickly and effectively with any buyer.
If you're getting on plenty of calls but still struggle to close the deal, try incorporating these steps into your processes. You just may be surprised how much of an impact they can have.
The skill of building rapport in sales is invaluable for the modern seller because when your competitors are hiding behind LinkedIn and social media, you can communicate with your buyer directly.
Brainshark Violation Of Biometric Privacy? Revenue intelligence?
Sep 23, 2021
On this week in sales we’ll be looking at; Brainshark (allegedly) being in violation of bio-metric privacy rights, revenue intelligence, salespeople being suck in the past and much more!
You'll learn:
News:
Sales training software company charged with privacy breaches
Tech firm Brainshark has been hit by proposed federal-class claims that the company is using artificial intelligence to analyze facial biometric data of sales employees and rating their sales presentation videos in violation of the biometric privacy rights of Illinois users.
Complainant Lori Wilk claimed Thursday that Brainshark’s, used by more than 1,000 companies around the world, violates biometric privacy law by analyzing facial geometry in uploaded sales presentations to analyze and score facial expressions and emotions of the presenter without first obtaining informed consent from Illinois users.
Mediafly Launches Unique Revenue Intelligence Solution to Drive Deal Confidence
Mediafly announced Revenue360, a new revenue intelligence solution that aggregates sales and content account activity and engagement data across the customer journey to help sales leaders accurately assess opportunity health, improve forecasting, and drive deal wins.
Instead of relying on partial insights obtained during sales meetings, Revenue360 captures account activities and content engagement from the first interaction on the website to sales meetings to follow-up from sales reps to provide a holistic view of the deal pipeline and prescriptive nexts steps.
“Many companies claim to have revenue intelligence capabilities, but their solutions provide users with only partial intelligence,” said Carson Conant, CEO and founder of Mediafly. “In a digital selling environment, sales organizations can no longer rely solely on what happened in the meeting to accurately gauge opportunity health. They also need to understand how buyers engage with content outside of live sales interactions. With the most robust content engagement analytics in the market, Mediafly is uniquely positioned to bridge the gap, offering revenue teams full visibility into insights derived from engagement – or lack thereof – with the content that is presented, shared and available online.”
Sales-tech SaaS startup GTM Buddy raises $2M led by Stellaris Venture Partners
“Despite advances in underlying technologies, current sales enablement solutions fail to meet the needs of the users. They are mostly a user interface on top of a classical folder structure, with basic search and tracking capabilities. Like many other enterprise processes, we believe that this is a space ripe for disruption.” added Alok Goyal, Partner, Stellaris Venture Partners.
“GTM Buddy leverages the latest advancements in technology, design and AI to deliver the right information to the sellers at the right time, information that is contextually relevant to the buyers; available within the tools that are used by them on a daily basis.” Sreedhar Peddineni, Co-founder and CEO of GTM Buddy
CRM Platform HubSpot Goes all-in on the UK with 1st Office Opening
HubSpot, the customer relationship management (CRM) platform for scaling companies, today announced that it is expanding its investment in the UK market by opening its first London office and committing to hiring employees across England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, creating 70 new jobs and helping the communities it serves thrive post-pandemic.
The company recently surpassed 121K paying customers and $1 billion in annual recurring revenue – the UK has become the second largest market globally and the largest in Europe with more than 10,000 paying customers in 2021, over 40% year-on-year growth.
Make Sure Your Salespeople Aren’t Stuck in the Past
Gartner’s Maria Boulden, one of the featured speakers at MDM’s (Modern Distribution Management) upcoming Sales GPS conference, says salespeople who still harbor a 2019 mindset stand little chance of survival.
“If you’re sending a sales professional who’s stuck in 2019 into the sales environment of 2021, you’re sending them into a kill box,” …
“Distributors are the principal part of a company’s go-to-market strategy, and if they have not adapted to what the world is both today and going forward, then they won’t survive.”
One, they are likely to build a moat around their business, making them impenetrable to competitors.
Two, they can expect to see their valuation climb, making them more attractive to potential buyers.
“Distributors that transform their sales models have created for themselves either something very profitable when they sell it, or something impossible for somebody else to swallow because they’re so good at what they do.
Her presentation is titled “The Future of Distribution Sales.” She will present her ideas on the shifting nature of the sales landscape at MDM’s annual Sales GPS Conference to be held Nov. 1-3 in Chicago.
You may not think recruitment and marketing go hand in hand. But a huge piece of making sure your talent pool is stocked with the best and brightest is making sure your company is an attractive place to work.
Therefore, recruitment and marketing need to play off one another. The job of a recruiter isn’t just to find great potential hires—it’s to get those hires to apply and commit.