Rob- Welcome to episode 343 of Self-Defense Gun Stories. We’re glad you found us if you’re well trained.. and if you’re still learning about armed defense. I’m Rob Morse and we’re joined this week by firearms instructor David Cole. What has been keeping you so busy?
David- Hi, Rob. I’ve been getting ready for match season with some dry fire and reloading. I’m also planning to attend a new instructor course soon.
How about you?
Rob- Just the usual, but I missed a chance to shoot at the range.
We didn’t get a new message this week. I do want to thank Roger for his continued help. We’re still looking for listeners who want to write or edit this podcast.
David- Please go to the iTunes store where you subscribe to podcasts and tell new gun owners why you listen.
Here in the US, we defend ourselves with a firearm thousands of times a day. We look at a few recent examples to see what we can learn. As alway, the links to our news sources are at the episode webpage.
Our first story took place last week in Chicago, Illinois.
You’re sixty years old. You are out before dawn to get some money from an ATM in your neighborhood. You turn to a noise behind you. A man throws his bike on the ground and walks toward you. He pulls a gun from his pocket and tells you to give it up.
You have your firearms owners ID card and your carry permit in your wallet. You have your firearm on your hip. You shoot at your attacker and he shoots at you. You’re wounded on your back and on your arm. You run to a local gas station and ask for help. They call 911 while you put pressure on your arm.
You give a statement to the police. They take your firearm from your pocket. EMS transports you to the hospital. You are listed in stable condition. Your attacker was declared dead. You are not charged with a crime.
David- I like that our defender recognized that Chicago is a dangerous place to live. I like that he got his permits and owned a firearm. Thank goodness he went armed this morning. He had his head up. He recognized a threat. He defended himself. He ran to safety and asked for help. He tried to treat his own wounds and then gave a statement to the police.
Rob- I had a question about going out before dawn. Was our defender on his way to work, or did he think that fewer people were on the street so he was safer?
David- We don’t know, but there are no safe times of day when you can go out unprotected. It has long been the conventional wisdom that crime occurs mostly at night, but that isn’t necessarily so. The bottom line is that none of us have a crystal ball to know in advance when we will need to be armed…so safest choice is to go armed at all times.
Rob- Is there anything else you’d like your students to do if they needed cash?
David- Try to avoid open-air or stand alone ATMs. Indoor ATMs are usually available in convenience stores and markets. Also consider getting cash when you check out at the grocery store. An easy “life hack” is to just buy a pack of gum or other small item, and then use the self checkout to get your cash. That might be harder, as grocery stores have closed in big cities like Chicago, but it is a safer option if available. At any rate, try to find an indoor ATM if at all possible. If you must use an outdoor ATM, try to have a friend with you to watch your back while you conduct your transaction.
Rob- This bad guy expected a shooting and found into a gunfight. How should we get our gun out when the bad guy already has a gun in his hands?
David- That’s always going to be a high risk move, but if you feel you have no choice, consider ways to distract your attacker, and be prepared to move.
Dropping or throwing an item can serve as a distraction for a moment, giving you an opportunity to draw your defensive firearm. One self defense instructor I trained under years ago taught a strategy he called the “survival rap.” This is really little more than using speech to engage the attacker’s brain, hopefully creating enough lag to create an opportunity to fight back or to escape. (And escape is the best option if available)
But once you draw, move so that you’re not where the attacker expects you to be. Now the attacker has to track you with his eyes, and then with his firearm. That is hard to do. Another option would be a surreptitious draw, by positioning your body where the attacker cannot see you draw, though this type draw is usually done more slowly when you have more time. Carrying in a coat or jacket pocket can also provide an opportunity to have your hand on your gun without the attacker seeing it. As always, you should practice these sorts of draws and presentation first under the eyes of an instructor, and then stay sharp by continuing practice with a blue training gun, or an unloaded firearm following the rules of gun safety.
Rob- When do your students learn about those defensive moves?
David- This is more advanced training which occurs after the initial concealed carry class.
Rob- Is there more you want to cover on this story, or should we go on?
David- It’s a good start. Our second story happened in Reading, Pennsylvania.
What did our defender do correctly?
(Bullet points by Roger T.)
The defender was very smart to get his FOID card, carry license and to carry a gun with him while walking the streets. It doesn’t matter whether he was in Chicago or Anytown USA.
All elderly people are targets because they can’t move as fast and they aren’t as stable on their feet as a younger robber. Anyone who looks and acts like “prey” is going to be “eaten”!
This defender was alert. He reacted when he heard a noise and saw he was going to get robbed. He knew he was in an immediate, lethal and unavoidable situation.
The defender drew his gun and fired multiple shots and he neutralized the bad guy even though he got shot himself.
The defender not only stayed in the gunfight and won, he was determined enough to live that he walked a block to get help even though he was wounded. If he had just stopped where he was and sat down he may have bled out before help arrived.
The defender gave a statement to the police.
What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)?
(Bullet points by Roger T.)
Walking the empty streets in the dark of the early morning makes you a target. If you have to go out at that time to get cash or go to work, take your gun as well as a friend with you, take a flashlight, get your cash from a store not an ATM.
Getting and using cash is very dangerous. Criminals see someone flashing a roll of cash and they pounce. Use debit cards or credit cards because they are safer and usually you can get your money back if there are fraudulent charges or they are lost.
The defender should have also had a cell phone with him. If he had a phone he could have stayed at the scene and called for help to come to him.
According to the news report, he left his gun at the scene. This left him defenseless while he was seeking help and some kid could have picked it up too.
The defender was very lucky that the robber on the bike didn’t bring another bad guy with him. Did he know how to engage multiple bad guys?
Did the defender know how to draw his gun while he moved to avoid being shot? Did he know how to use distractions to give himself a few moments to draw his gun? Did he know how to shoot from a retention position since the robber was probably close enough to him in order to grab his gun?
Did the defender carry his gun in a hip holster or in his pocket? Wearing a coat makes drawing your concealed gun harder and definitely slower to draw. Some good guys carry a small revolver in their coat pocket as well as a larger handgun under their coat. They walk with their hand on the gun in their pocket and they fire the small pocket gun while it’s still in the pocket. This gives them time to access their larger gun with greater capacity on their hip.
You and your roommates are at home. It is six in the evening when you’re surprised to see a stranger enter your apartment. You don’t know him. Your roommates don’t know him. You ask him to leave. He gets offended and attacks you and your roommates. You grab your gun and shoot your attacker. Now he runs from your apartment. You and your roommates call the police. You put your gun away before they arrive.
Everyone stays at the scene and gives the police a statement. They find your attacker. They transport him to the hospital to treat his wounded leg. Your attacker is charged with criminal trespass and several counts of assault. You are not charged with a crime. It looks like your attacker was looking for a drug dealer and got the wrong address.
David- I like that someone was armed. I like that they tried to use words before they went to guns. They attempted to defend themselves without using deadly force before eventually resorting to using their firearm. The defenders stayed at the scene and called 911 for help. The victims met the police with empty hands. They also gave a statement to the police.
Rob- I know there is more you want us to do.
David- And you can guess what it is. I want you armed even when you’re at home. I want your doors and windows locked. Ideally, I want all of the adults to be armed. I also want you to have a lawyer to call before you fill out the police report. Pennsylvania has a castle doctrine law, which helps these defenders justify deadly force. You need to know if you have castle doctrine in your state, and what that means when it comes to using deadly force in self defense in your home.
Rob- This defense is harder than it sounds.
David- This situation is way harder than it sounds. Let me lay it out for you. A guy shows up unannounced and won’t leave. He attacks one of your roommates. A second roommate joins in to try and push the guy outside. You’re armed and you’re afraid the guy might have a weapon, or perhaps he is simply stronger and is overpowering you or your roommate. You have to be careful to position yourself so that you don’t shoot your roommate in the process, so it is a very difficult situation.
Another consideration is OC, or pepper spray. This can be an option in confrontations which don’t justify deadly force, but exceed your ability to counter with empty hand skills.
Rob- When do you learn not to shoot at the bad guy from 7 yards away like you’re at the shooting range hitting a paper target?
David- We start that with marksmanship and the four safety rules. We reinforce it during the concealed carry class. We focus on those issues with a combat handgun class. It is also called beyond concealed carry.
Rob- Where are we heading next?
David- Our third story happened in Atlanta, Georgia.
What did our defender do correctly?
(Bullet points by Roger T.)
The defender asked the intruder to leave.
The defender recognized that he was in an immediate, lethal and unavoidable situation when the intruder attacked him and his roommate.
The defender had a gun that was nearby and he was able to shoot the attacking intruder.
The defender stayed at the scene and did not chase the intruder.
The defender called 911 and put his gun away.
The defender and the roommates gave statements to the police.
What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)?
(Bullet points by Roger T.)
Were the doors and windows locked? How was the intruder able to surprise the defender and his roommates?
The defender asked the intruder to leave but the intruder attacked instead.
Pennsylvania is a Castle Doctrine state where the occupants do not have a duty to retreat. There has to be a threat of major bodily harm, death, kidnapping or rape in order to use deadly force. Consult a lawyer or take a class on the use of deadly force.
Fortunately, the defender had a gun and it was either on his body or nearby.
The defender shot the intruder but only hit him in the leg. If you are justified to shoot, you need to neutralize the bad guy, not wound him. If you don’t neutralize him he might continue his attack. Best practices is to get two hits to the upper, center chest.
Could all of the occupants have and carry their own guns?
Rob- First this message from Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership
It is just after midnight. You’ve asked your daughter’s ex-boyfriend to leave. He continues to shout and to threaten your family outside your home. The ex-boyfriend threatens you again and draws a gun from his pocket. He shoots it into the air. You present your own firearm and shoot him until he runs. You and your family retreat inside the home and call the police.
Police arrest your attacker and he is now in the local jail. You are not charged with a crime.
David- I’m glad that mom was armed. I’m glad she tried to diffuse the situation by asking the daughters ex-boyfriend to leave. She recognized an immediate, lethal, and unavoidable threat when the attacker drew his gun and shot it into the air. She defended her family from that threat. She stopped shooting when the defender ran. She and her family retreated to a safe place and then called the police. They met the police with empty hands and then gave the officers their statements. That is a good start.
Rob- You called it a good start. What else do you want your students to do that wasn’t mentioned in the news report?
David- We win every fight we avoid. While she did well by retreating to a safe place after the shooting…why not do that before the shooting starts? Let’s file a restraining order the first time the boyfriend issues a threat. Then you can stay inside behind a locked door, and then call police and let them deal with it. I also want any adult who can be legally armed to do so. I also want you to have a lawyer to call so you have help filling out your police report.
Rob- Where do gun owners learn that? It isn’t in basic marksmanship. It isn’t in their concealed carry class.
David- We talk about avoiding a gunfight in our concealed carry class. We mention restraining orders. We talk about the legal use of lethal force, but we certainly can’t cover all of it in one class. This is where having a lawyer who is educated in self defense law comes in handy. Ideally, your family learned all that, and then how to defend each other in a class on team tactics.
Rob- Defending a group of people in the dark or the dim isn’t easy.
David- I’m concerned that your family is running away from the attacker and they might run into your line of fire. It is your responsibility to not injure innocent people as you defend your family.
Rob- Where are we going for our last story? David- Our fourth story took place in Española, New Mexico.
What did our defender do correctly?
(Bullet points by Roger T.)
The defender was armed when she was engaged in an argument with her daughter’s ex-boyfriend.
She tried using verbal commands multiple times.
She only fired after the ex-boyfriend pulled a gun and fired into the air.
She shot the ex-boyfriend until he retreated.
She and the family retreated to inside the home and called 911.
She put her gun away and gave a statement to the police.
What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)?
(Bullet points by Roger T.)
Instead of continuing an argument, try de-escalating the situation. Tell the ex-boyfriend to leave and come back later when everyone has cooled down.
If you don’t already have a restraining order, get one. It won’t stop an attack but it establishes a legal papertrail.
If you can’t de-escalate, avoid. Walk away. Retreat to the house and call 911 from behind locked doors before the situation turns into a gunfight. Stand away from the door and any windows so you can’t be seen from the outside or harmed if he breaks down the door. Go to a defensible position behind cover/concealment.
If it’s dark outside, turn on exterior lights and turn off the interior lights.
If the argument or attack continues, make the bad guy come to you.
You and your wife are at home in bed. It is just after four in the morning when you both hear something in your garage. Given that you’re both in your seventies, it was quite a noise to wake you up. You grab your gun and both go to see what is happening. You see an intruder in your garage. You tell him to leave. He attacks your wife and knocks her over. You shoot the attacker. You both retreat into the home and your wife calls 911.
You put your gun away before police arrive. You both tell the police where you saw the attacker. EMS declares your attacker dead at the scene. Police know your attacker. He has over 11 prior arrests for burglary and drug charges.
You are not charged with a crime.
David- This couple decided that they needed a gun for armed defense. It sounds like both homeowners paid attention to the bump in the night. Good for them. They worked together. They shouted that they were at home and that they were armed. The armed defender shot the attacker when his wife was attacked. He stopped shooting when the attack ended. They retreated into the home, but stayed near the scene and called for help. They also told some of their story to the police.
Rob- Again, now you’re shooting near your partner to stop an attack.
David- Don’t take this the wrong way, but I’m glad that the homeowner fell down. That may have gotten her out of the way so the defender could shoot.
Rob- Was this a lethal threat that justified using lethal force?
David- Given that the defenders were in their 70s, anyone who starts throwing punches at them is bringing lethal force, and an elderly defender is unlikely to be able to physically overpower a 28-year old career burglar.
The news story says their garage and their home were damaged by the break in. That sounds like they locked their doors and windows. Good for them. If you have a garage that is connected to your home, make sure that the interior door is locked as well. That is another barrier that a home invader has to overcome. I’m more worried about you being hurt than I am about the thief taking your lawn mower. Grab your gun and your flashlight. Turn on the lights and call 911. I’d be even happier if you were both armed. I’d also prefer that you not go looking if you believe someone is in your home, if you can avoid doing so. It’s better to barricade yourself in a defensible room and call police.
For bonus points, have a motion activated light in your garage and at your doorway.
Rob- Is there anything else you want to add?
David- I want you to call your lawyer so you win both the criminal defense and the civil defense. I noticed that the civil suit laws in Louisiana where you live, Rob, just got better.
Rob- Give us four years and we might catch up with Georgia.
David- I hope so.
What did our defender do correctly?
(Bullet points by Roger T.)
The defenders paid attention when they heard a noise at night. Don’t ignore warnings.
The defender grabbed his gun when he and his wife went to investigate.
The defender tried using verbal commands but they failed.
The defender shot the intruder when he attacked his wife.
The defender and his wife retreated back into the house and called 911.
They put the gun away and gave statements to the police.
What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)?
(Bullet points by Roger T.)
New Mexico has Castile Doctrine law. That means that there is no duty to retreat in the event of a home invasion.
How did the intruder get into the garage? Were the doors and windows locked.
Motion-detecting lights and cameras are a very good deterrent.
Unless you and your partner are both very well trained and armed, “clearing a house” is very dangerous. You don’t know how many intruders there are, where they are and if they are armed. In this case, the defender’s unarmed wife tried to help investigate the noise and ended up getting attacked and knocked over. She could have become a hostage.
If there are no other family members elsewhere in the house, best practices says: retreat to a defensible room, lock and barricade the door, call 911, turn off the lights and take a defensive position from behind cover or concealment. If the intruder breaks through the door then shoot multiple shots. The door becomes a “fatal funnel”.
Exit-
Rob- That wraps up this episode. David, thank you for helping us again. Where can we learn more about you?
David- Look for my articles at deltabravocharlie.com My latest articles cover changes in the NRA management, the Uvalde report, and gun rights under attack in Virginia…and the insanity of gun control in general. I’m also planning to attend the NRA Annual Meeting in Dallas this year, for the first time in a few years. Come find me and say hello.
Rob- After you look at Dave articles and his videos, then please leave us a message on the podcast episode webpage.
David- We share this podcast with you for free. Please share the podcast with a friend and give us a rating on I-Tunes and Listen Notes. We’re also available on Amazon, Google Podcasts, Tunein, Spotify, Podbean and iHeart Radio.
Rob- This show is part of the Self-defense radio network. Find more pro-freedom podcasts at sdrn.us
I’m Rob Morse. We’ll be back next week with more Self-Defense Gun Stories.
Episode 342 with Candy Petticord
Mar 07, 2024
Introduction-
Rob- Welcome to episode 342 of Self-Defense Gun Stories. We’re glad you found us if you’re well trained.. and if you’re still learning about armed defense. I’m Rob Morse and we’re joined this week by firearms instructor Candy Petticord. What has been keeping you so busy?
Candy Petticord
Candy- Hi, Rob. I’ve been teaching in Ohio and taking training at WOFT in Florida. How about you?
Rob- Life is good. I’ve been carrying and dry practicing every other day. I was listening to some neighbors talk about firearms. People give a lot of bad advice.
We received a new comment on iTunes (is 202,368) Nerdly said he likes the way we break down each self-defense situation, and he likes our guest instructors. He gave us a five star rating. Thank you, Nerdly
I also want to thank Roger for his help this week. We’re still looking for listeners who want to write or edit this podcast. Someday soon, all this can be yours.
Candy- Please go to the iTunes store where you subscribe to podcasts and tell new gun owners why you listen.
Here in the US, we defend ourselves with a firearm thousands of times a day. We look at a few recent examples to see what we can learn. The links back to the original news articles are on our podcast webpage.
Our first story took place last week in Houma, Louisiana.
You are at home asleep in your bed. It is 5 in the morning and you’re woken up by the sounds of someone downstairs. You grab your gun. You go to the top of the stairs. Your intruder tries to climb the stairs and you shoot him. He runs back outside and you stop shooting. You call 911 and ask for help.
You put your gun away when the police arrive. You give the police a brief statement. Police search the area. They collect descriptions and security video from your neighbors. The police identify a suspect and go to his house. An armed woman comes out of the house and is arrested by police. Police find your intruder hiding under a mattress. EMTs take him to the hospital. He is treated for a graze wound to the head.
Your intruder is charged with one count of simple burglary and held on an outstanding warrant for violating parole. His girlfriend is charged with simple burglary, obstruction of justice, and possession of a firearm by a convicted felon.
You are not charged with a crime.
Candy- I like that the homeowner thought about protecting himself and then bought a firearm. He kept his gun where it was quickly accessible when he needed it. He heard something at night and responded to the sound. He grabbed his gun before he went to investigate the noise.
Our defender moved to a position of defensive advantage at the top of the stairs. That is brilliant. The defender shot the intruder when the intruder came up the stairs. Our defender then stopped shooting when the attacker ran away. Our defender didn’t chase the bad guy down the street. He stayed at home and called 911 for help.
It sounds like our good guy stayed on the call with 911 until the police arrived, and then he met the officers with empty hands. He briefly described what happened.
Rob- That sounds like a good job?
Candy- It is a very good job, but there are a few small things we can do to make it into an amazing job. The good news is that they don’t cost much.
Make sure your doors and windows are locked. Consider putting safety film on the side windows near your doors. Put motion activated lights near your doors. Since you sleep upstairs, add a motion detector with a chime downstairs.
Use a bedside rapid access safe to store your gun at night. Have your cell phone on charge next to your small safe.
For bonus points, have a light at the bottom of the stairs that you can turn on from the top of the stairs. You want to see your attacker while he can’t see you because you’re hiding in the dim.
Stairs are a pain in the rear end when you’re tired, but they are a wonderful place to defend your family. It takes a squad of men to move one defender off the top of the stairs, but only if you practice. Do you hide behind the left, the bottom, or the right side of the top landing? Work with through the problem at your house and find out.
You might want to shout that you’re armed and that you’ve called the police.
Rob- There are a lot of little skills hiding inside what you said.
You want your students to learn to live with a gun in their home.
To learn how to use cover
To learn to shoot in low light situations
To know what to say if there is an intruder in the home.
To know the laws in your state and understand the duty to retreat.
Candy- Yeah, that is more than what we teach in our firearms safety class or concealed carry classes. Keep coming back, and we’ll teach you everything we know!!
The duty to retreat has the caveat that you don’t have to retreat unless you can do so safely. Since you’re probably moving to a position of greater risk if you move from the top of the stairs, you are best to stay where you are.
Rob- Where would I get to practice moving to cover and shooting around it?
Candy- IDPA matches are a great place to practice moving to cover and shooting around barricades. In fact, that’s one of the main purposes of the International Defensive Pistol Association (IDPA) matches – To teach shooters how to properly handle their firearms in defensive situations and in various environments.
Taking one of my advanced training classes is another great option and you will have the benefit of one-on-one or small group attention and instruction.
Lastly, you can join us when we host a Guest Instructor at our facility. Every Guest Instructor at Northpointe Training is invited because I have personally trained with them and I consider them one of the best in their field.
What did our defender do correctly?
(Bullet points by Roger T.)
The defender was aware and he responded to a noise on the first floor of his home.
The defender had a gun and took it with him when he investigated the noise.
The defender fired on the intruder when he encountered the intruder on the stairs.
The defender stopped shooting when the intruder retreated and he did not chase the intruder.
The defender called 911, put his gun away when police arrived and gave a statement to the police.
What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)?
(Bullet points by Roger T.)
This incident took place in Louisiana where Castle Doctrine is the law.
The defender did not have to retreat like he would if he lived in one of the twelve states that still have “Duty to Retreat” laws.
It’s critical that gun owners know the “Use of Deadly Force” laws in the state where they live because they vary widely. Ignorance of the laws can get you a jail sentence.
Even in a Castle Doctrine state, best practices states that gathering your family to a defensive room, locking and barricading the door, turning out the interior lights and preparing to defend the door from cover or concealment is much safer than trying to “clear” your house alone.
Standing at the top of a stairway is using good tactics. Stairways, hallways and doorways are “fatal funnels” which are much easier to defend than standing in an open room.
How did the intruder get into the house? Did he break in or were the doors and windows left unlocked?
Intruders look for homes that give them easy access and where they can hide while they are breaking in. Use motion lights, trim your trees and bushes near the house and add hurricane film to any glass that can be reached on the first floor. Also apply the film to all of the glass on your doors and any windows within reach of door locks.
Add security striker plates on the door locks and use screws long enough to engage the wood studs for both the striker plates and hinges. Make your house too much trouble so the intruders will move on.
Rob- Is there more you want to say about this story, or should we go on?
Candy- Let’s proceed!! Our second story happened in Memphis, Tennessee.
Your husband is having an affair. You put his possessions on the front porch for him to pick up. It is dark outside when he husband arrives. He tears down the security camera on the front porch and then uses the camera to smash a window at the back of the house. You’re armed. Your husband enters the home and attacks you. You run out the front door. Your attacker follows you. You shoot him and now he stops chasing you.
Your neighbors come out and ask what is happening. You shout for them to call the police. You put your gun away and give a statement to the police when they arrive. You show the police your husband’s clothes, the broken camera, and the broken window. EMTs take your husband to the hospital for treatment of a gunshot wound to the knee. News reports are not clear if our defender was treated by the EMTs. She is not charged.
Candy- Domestic issues are difficult because there is often a lot of history between the attacker and defender.
I like that she locked the doors and windows. That left evidence of the forced entry. I like that she retreated so it was clear that the attacker brought the fight to her. I like that she defended herself and then stopped when the fight was over.
Does a person have the right to break into his own home? You can argue that all the husband’s possessions were already outside the home so this was a personal attack and gaining entry to the home was not about recovering personal property. To prove that point, the husband did attack the wife once he gained entry to the home. The defender fled, so the husband clearly instigated the attack.
The defender had a tool that worked at a distance. She is at a disadvantage if her attacker is close enough that he can grab her. She stopped the threat and then stopped shooting. I love that she shouted for her neighbors to call 911.
Rob- What else do you want your students to do?
Candy- While a restraining order will not stop an attack, it will demonstrate to the court that the husband was in the wrong when he came to the home. That can potentially save you tons of money in attorney’s fees. If you feel threatened or have been threatened, I highly recommend you make the time to file a restraining order to help establish a paper trail.
Shout that you’re armed and have called the police. Shout “Stop, or I’ll defend myself.” You want not just “eye” witnesses, but also “ear” witnesses. You also want to call 911 when you hear glass breaking at the back of your house. If you have a domestic abuser, then you should have a panic button on your phone so you don’t need to waste unlocking it and then dialing 911, especially when you are fearing for your safety or your life.
Domestic attackers often want to get close to the victim during their attack. That means you have to learn how to shoot without extending your firearm out in front of you where someone else can grab it. That is called “shooting from retention” and it is another skill you can learn through my advanced training classes.
Since the situation is already documented via the restraining order, I would highly recommend having a deputy present when your husband moves out.
Rob- This defender had to shoot as she was moving away from the home and being chased by her attacker. When would your students learn to shoot on the move?
Candy- This is an advanced skillset that would only be pursued after the student had exhibited a strong foundation of safely handling their firearm.
What did our defender do correctly?
(Bullet points by Roger T.)
The defender’s windows and doors were locked. She also had a camera. Unfortunately, the camera was mounted so low that her husband could reach it and use it to break a window. Did the defender change the locks on the doors?
The defender tried to keep the husband at a distance by using commands and also a gasoline container.?? Unfortunately, these efforts failed.
The defender tried to leave the house but she was pursued by the husband.
The defender fired on the husband until he stopped attacking.
The defender shouted for the neighbors to call 911.
The defender put her gun away when the police arrived and she not only gave them a statement, she showed them critical evidence of the attack.
What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)?
(Bullet points by Roger T.)
The defender should have gotten a restraining order on her husband if she had time.
The defender was armed and either had the gun on her body or nearby when her husband arrived to get his clothes. The defender should have asked a few friends or neighbors to stand with her if she knew that her husband was coming over for his clothes. There’s safety in numbers whether the friends are armed or not.
Did the defender know how to shoot from a retention position? Did the defender have any non-lethal options available?
Could the defender have dropped the husband’s clothes off somewhere else, like at one of his relative’s homes so she would not have encountered him? Emotions run high in these situations and the less contact the better.
Could the husband and wife have met at a police station to give him the clothes?
Did the husband know that his wife had a gun? Did she warn him that she did?
If the husband was the one having the affair, why did he attack his wife?
Rob- Where are we going for our third story?
Candy- We’re headed to Denison, Texas.
Rob- First this message from the Second Amendment Foundation.
It is about 4:30 on a Monday afternoon when you hear someone knocking at your door. The news story isn’t clear if the door was unlocked and the intruder walked inside or if you opened the door to talk to them. The stranger pushes you out of the way and walks into your home. You shout for him to stop. You try and push him back outside. The stranger hits you with a hammer. You shoot your attacker. Now he stops hitting you.
You step back and call 911 for help. Police and EMTs arrive. You put your gun away. EMTs transport your attacker to the hospital. You give a statement to the police. It isn’t clear if your injuries required treatment. You are not charged with a crime.
Candy- Wow. Who would have thought that you’d get attacked at home in the middle of a work day afternoon.
It sounds like our defender was armed. I like that. The defender tried to use words and hands before he went to firearms. I like that too. Our defender used his gun when he had to, and stopped using his firearm once the threat had ceased. Good job.
He called the police and asked for help. He stayed at the scene and gave a statement to the police.
Rob- The fight only lasted a few seconds. I don’t want it to even last that long if I’m getting hit with a hammer. Candy, when do you talk to your basic firearms class about carrying a firearm on their body at home?
Candy- They ask about it during class. We talk about the follow-up classes they can take once they know firearms safety and have solid basic marksmanship skills.
I want to point out that this is another example of close quarters armed defense. I’m surprised that the defender wasn’t injured. If you are hurt, then make sure the EMTs treat you and then go to your own doctor for a follow up evaluation as soon as possible but no later than the next day. Those documents are evidence that you were defending yourself from an attack.
Rob- There is a school of instruction that says don’t talk to the police. How will the police know that the hammer is evidence of an attack and not something you were using for home repair if you stay silent?
Candy- You want to briefly describe what happened and point out evidence. Leave the details for the report your lawyer submits to the police.
Rob- I need a lawyer even though I was attacked in my own home?
Candy- Yes you do. You need a self defense attorney on retainer, or you need self-defense insurance which will usually provide you with a self-defense attorney via a special Member’s only phone line.
What did our defender do correctly?
(Bullet points by Roger T.)
The defender either had a gun on his body or he had it nearby when the intruder pushed his way into the home.
The defender tried to use verbal commands and he also tried to push the intruder out the door. When those actions didn’t work and the intruder started hitting the defender with a hammer, the defender shot the intruder.
The shooting stopped when the intruder stopped hitting the defender with the hammer.
The defender stepped back to gain some distance and then called 911.
The defender put his gun away and gave a statement to the police when they arrived.
What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)?
(Bullet points by Roger T.)
Your doors and windows should always be locked. Don’t open the door unless you know and trust the person on the other side.
Don’t stand in front of the door in case the attacker shoots through the closed door. Stand aside or use a nearby window to answer your door. Make sure you can’t be seen from the outside.
A hammer is a deadly weapon. No different than a knife, club or a gun.
The Tueller Drill applies to clubs and hammers as well as knives. If you don’t know what the significance is to this drill, take a class or get an instructor to explain it to you. Remember, don’t just stand there and wait for the attacker to arrive – MOVE!
If an attacker is close enough to use a contact weapon, you must know how to shoot from a retention position. That takes training and practice. You also need to know how to shoot with your non-dominant hand in case your dominant hand/arm are injured. Do you know how to do a reload with only one hand? Again, this is taught in advanced training classes.
Rob- Where are we going for our last story?
Candy- Our fourth story took place in Chicago, Illinois.
You’re working in a high end jewelry store in the middle of Chicago’s Magnificent Mile. It is just before noon and you see a customer come in and walk around the store. He stops near the exit and starts punching a jewelry display case over and over again. You have your Illinois carry permit. You’re carrying concealed at work today. You present your firearm and shoot the robber several times. He stops trying to smash the display case and falls down. You stop shooting. The robber gets up and runs outside.
You stay inside the store. You ask if anyone else is hurt. One of the store employees calls 911 for help. You stay at the scene and put your gun away. You give the police a statement and show them your paperwork. You also show them the security video of the robber when he was inside the store and outside the store. You’re taken to the local police station to give a statement to detectives.
Later, you found out that the robber ran up the stairs to the train tracks and fell into a train car. He was arrested and taken to the hospital for treatment of gunshot wounds to the buttocks and stomach. You are not charged with a crime.
Candy- I like that our defender was armed. I like that he called for help and stayed at the scene and spoke to police.
Rob- What else do you see here?
Candy- The news story doesn’t say that the thief threatened anyone. He just tried to steal property. You are in the difficult position of showing that your use of force was the safest thing to do.
The jewelry store worker in this case was not a defender of life but of property. This theft took place in Chicago, not Texas. Texas is the only state I know of that allows the use of deadly force to protect property and even then only under certain circumstances.
Considering how liberal the city of Chicago is, the jewelry store worker might be charged with aggravated assault or even attempted murder. The wounded thief will probably sue him in civil court.
This gun owner might not have had his concealed carry permit since he wasn’t carrying the gun in public, but only carrying it on his employer’s premises. No matter where you carry, you need to know the law. We now have 28 states that have constitutional carry laws where you don’t need a permit to carry in public. You absolutely need a class to learn what you should and should not do with a firearm in the situations you’re likely to face.
Particularly at work where you’re more likely to face a non-lethal threat, please carry a non-lethal defensive tool, such as pepper spray, with you. The FBI states that it is five times more likely that you will need a non-lethal tool than a gun.
Rob- Do I have a duty to retreat when someone is stealing from me?
Candy- In most states you do. In some states the value of the property is important in that you might be allowed to use force including lethal force if the crime is a felony. That varies from state to state.
Rob- What do you tell your students?
Candy- I tell my students that if it’s not worth my jumping into a tank full of hungry sharks to retrieve an item, it is not worth me drawing my firearm or perhaps even getting involved.
As always, we have to ask if there was an immediate, lethal, and unavoidable threat to an innocent party. If the answer is no, then it isn’t a gun problem. Could it have been a gun problem as the large man hit a woman who walked through the store’s main door which was right next to the robber, Yes it could have, but that is speculation rather than something we observe.
What did our defender do correctly?
(Bullet points by Roger T.)
This is a prime example of what a concealed license carrier should NOT do.
The jewelry store worker in this case was not a defender of life but of property. This theft took place in Chicago, not Texas. Texas is the only state that allows the use of deadly force to protect property and even then only under a very specific set of circumstances.
The jewelry store worker had a concealed carry license from Illinois which requires a 16-hour training course.
Nowhere in the summary story nor in the news report did the thief threaten anyone. He just tried to steal property.
Considering how liberal the city of Chicago is, the jewelry store worker might be charged with aggravated assault or even attempted murder. And since he voluntarily violated the law, many of the legal defense insurance companies probably won’t cover his legal expenses. Even if the police or DA decide not to charge the jewelry worker, the thief that he shot absolutely will sue him in civil court and most likely win.
This type of situation is why concealed gun carriers should always have a non-lethal weapon available. The FBI states that it is five times more likely that you will need a non-lethal weapon than a gun.
What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)?
(Bullet points by Roger T.)
Learn the difference between theft and robbery. Theft is a crime against property, whereas robbery is a crime against a person. This bad guy was a thief not a robber.
You can only use deadly force to save innocent lives, not property. Learn the laws concerning the “Use of Deadly Force” for the states where you live and any state you travel to. “The Law of Self-Defense” by lawyer Andrew Branka is an excellent book on that subject.
Carry pepper spray or a baton as well as a gun and/or knife.
Concealed carriers are not the police. It’s not your job to protect property.
In many states, a concealed carrier can legally present their gun and point it as a threat to prevent a thief from engaging in a property theft. Pointing a gun is a “use of force”. But pointing your gun and shooting at a thief trying to steal a car is a “use of deadly force” which is not allowed.
Exit-
Rob- That wraps up this episode. Candy, thank you for helping us again. Where can we learn more about you?
Rob- After you look at Candy’s articles and her schedule, then leave us a message on the podcast episode webpage.
Candy- We share this podcast with you for free. Please share the podcast with a friend and give us a rating on I-Tunes and Listen Notes. We’re also available on Amazon, Tunein, Spotify, Podbean and iHeart Radio.
Rob- This show is part of the Self-defense radio network. Find more pro-freedom podcasts at sdrn.us
I’m Rob Morse. We’ll be back next week with more Self-Defense Gun Stories.
~_~_
Apple categories- news commentary, self-improvement
http://traffic.libsyn.com/dgustories/sdgs342.mp3
Episode 341 with Amanda Suffecool
Feb 28, 2024
Introduction-
Rob- Welcome to episode 341 of Self-Defense Gun Stories. We’re glad you found us if you’re well trained.. and if you’re still learning about armed defense. I’m Rob Morse and we’re joined this week by firearms instructor Amanda Suffecool. I know you’ve been traveling a lot.
Amanda Suffecool
Amanda- Hi, Rob. I’ve been in Florida at the Ambassadors’ Academy. And then Kevin & Sarah Sona’s 2A Freedom Fest
How about you?
Rob- I was overseas for a week. When I got back, I dry practiced and went to the range. I noticed my inconsistent shooting from lack of practice.
We received a new rating and review on iTunes (367,201) Buzz loves the way we tell the stories and then explain what we might do in their place.
Nathan gave us a thank you and said the stories were eye-opening. He wants us to keep up the good work.
Dwayne sent in one of the stories we used.
Thank you Dwayne, Buzz, and Nathan. I also want to thank Roger for his help again this week. We’re still looking for listeners who volunteer to write or edit this podcast. Someday soon, all this can be yours.
Amanda- Please go to the iTunes store where you subscribe to podcasts and tell new gun owners why you listen.
Here in the US, we defend ourselves with a firearm several thousand times a day. We’ll look at a few recent examples. The links back to the original news articles are on our podcast webpage.
Our first story took place last week in Fresno, California.
It is just after 10 on a weekday morning. You are at home with your two small children. Your wife calls your cell phone. She says a neighbor saw three strangers run onto your property. The neighbor called her thinking she was at home. You check your ring doorbell and see three men who ran into your garage. News stories aren’t clear if you called the police or if your wife did.
You grab your shotgun. You open your garage door and shout get out, get out, get out. One of the intruders dives for the ground. The other freezes. The third one runs away. Police arrive a minute later. You lower your shotgun when the police arrive.
The robber who is standing up runs out the garage door. The robber on the floor is arrested by police.
You give the police a statement. They tell you that the three robbers were driving a stolen Mercedes and being chased by police after an armed robbery. The police were searching for them after they abandoned the Mercedes nearby. The police found the robber who was standing in your garage. They arrest him. The robber who ran when you entered your garage was found next door. He wouldn’t come out so they sent a dog in to get him.
You are not charged with a crime. You are glad your small children aren’t hurt. Your neighbor calls to see how you’re doing.
Tag- No Shots Fired
Amanda- This family and their neighbors worked together to protect their children. They met their neighbors and had a good relationship with them. They installed a few security cameras. When a neighbor saw something unusual, they called the mom and the mom got the needed information to her husband who was at home. The news report isn’t explicit, but I assume the robbers were in the garage because the garage door to the house was locked.
I also like that the homeowner had a firearm and was comfortable using it.
All in all – the family had a well rounded and solid plan for defending their home and more importantly, their loved ones.
I like that the homeowner used verbal commands. He told the robbers what he wanted them to do. Shouting get out, get out, is pretty clear. Unfortunately, it didn’t work. Our good guy didn’t chase or shoot at the robbers who ran away. The defender called 911 and asked for help. He also put his firearm away when the police arrived.
Rob- What else do you see in this story?
Amanda- It is possible that there was a reason to go into the garage, but usually I want my students to stay away from an attacker. Distance is your friend. There is no urgency to go looking for an intruder. Stay put and let the police look for them.
I like that the homeowner said go away, but having a shotgun pointed at you sent a stronger message than his words. One of the robbers did what he thought was best, in an effort to not get shot. Another took his chances that running was better than staying put. It did not work out for any one of them.
Let’s say you have small children at home. You see strangers in your garage. Your doors are locked. The first rule of defense is don’t get shot. That means you go and grab your gun. You get into a defensible position and then you get the police on the way.
Remember that the goal is to keep your kids safe rather than protecting the lawn mower and the case of beer that is in the garage.
Rob- When do you tell your students about that?
Amanda- We’re always answering questions. The class called self-defense in the home is where they form a home defense plan. One of the benefits of a class is we can learn from other people’s choices. You can see what other people did and decide if that fits your family in your home. Just the act of thinking about it ahead of time adds to your defensive layers.
Rob- A long gun is effective, but what if the homeowner was at one end of the home away from his gun and the robbers broke into the middle of this home?
Amanda- That is exactly why most of us choose to have a concealed handgun with us. Pants on, gun on. Then you don’t have to wonder if you can get to it in time. A handgun may not be the best defensive firearm, but it is a good compromise for most of us.
Rob- Is there more you want to cover about this story, or should we go on?
Amanda- Before we move on, I want you to know that holding someone at gunpoint is hard. We teach people how to do it, and there are ways to do it wrong that put you at risk. I compare it to having caught a tiger. You can’t trust it, even for a second. Many times it’s better for the homeowner if the bad guy runs away.
Now let’s go to Las Cruces, New Mexico.
What did our defender do correctly?
(Bullet points by Roger T.)
The defender had a camera and a gun. He realized that he and his children were in a potentially immediate, lethal and unavoidable situation.
The defender checked his Ring camera and grabbed his gun.
Either the defender or his wife called 911.
The defender tried verbal commands.
The defender did not pursue nor shoot the bad guys that ran away.
The defender lowered his gun when the police arrived.
What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)?
(Bullet points by Roger T.)
Self-defense is about problem-solving. These situations happen very quickly and they can have deadly results. Having a plan, using situational awareness, tactics, distance, cover, concealment and various weapons are all tools that we use to solve a problem.
THE PROBLEM: The defender was at home with (2) small children when he was notified that he had (3) trespassers in his garage. Were they armed? Were they dangerous? What was their intent?
THE DEFENDER’S SOLUTION: He confirmed that the bad guys were there using the Ring camera, 911 was called and he grabbed his shotgun. So far so good. But when he opened the garage door to engage the bad guys, he had no idea where they were, whether they were armed or not and how desperate they were. There was nothing in the garage that justified his walking into a gunfight. This defender not only put himself in danger but he also put his (2) small children in jeopardy. If he was shot, who would protect the kids?
BEST PRACTICES SOLUTION: The #1 rule of self-defense is DON’T GET SHOT! Don’t put yourself or others into a position where people get shot or injured unless you are saving a life. After 911 was called, he should have gathered the children into a defensible room, locked and barricaded the door then prepared to defend from cover or concealment. Use the door as a “fatal funnel”.
ADDITIONAL TRAINING: Holding a bad guy at gunpoint is very dangerous. Knowing how to do it is a critical skill that requires knowledge and training. If you don’t have the training, don’t do it. Also, do you have the training and the equipment to treat a gunshot wound?
You’re standing next to your car in a business parking lot. It is about 5 in the afternoon when You see a policeman approach a homeless man who is standing in front of a business. The homeless man stabs the police officer. The officer yells and falls. You reach into your car and grab your gun. You shout for the attacker to stop. The attacker advances toward you and you shoot him. He falls. News reports aren’t clear what you did with your gun.
You run up to the officer and use his radio to call for help. Police and EMTs arrive quickly. You step back but remain at the scene. EMTs transport the officer.
You give the police a statement about what you saw and what you did. The attacker is declared dead at the scene. Later, you find out that the officer died in the hospital. His attacker had a criminal history including domestic violence, kidnapping, failure to appear in court, and repeated drug use. Police get security video from the businesses nearby. You are not charged with a crime.
Amanda- Yikes. You see a policeman being attacked and what should you do. If you haven’t thought about it ahead of time then you’re going to stand there with your mouth hanging open as the policeman is stabbed again and again. Our defender decided that he needed to have a firearm with him as he drove. That helps too. Again, the defender tried verbal commands. In this case they worked, sort of. The defender used his firearm when he faced an immediate, lethal, and unavoidable attack. He used the policeman’s radio to get help and he stayed at the scene.
Rob- What else do you want your students to do?
Amanda- I want you to have your firearm with you all the time. This citizen was lucky that he was near his car and not near the crazy man with a knife. Depending on luck is a bad plan.
I can’t tell if using verbal commands in this case was a good idea or a bad idea. I don’t think we know enough to decide.
Rob- What are the arguments on each side?
Amanda- There is a family member you love being attacked. You already have the legal justification to shoot and you don’t have to wait and issue verbal commands while your loved one is stabbed three more times.
Rob- And what is the other argument?
Amanda- Maybe shouting for the bad guy to stop was all it took for the murderer to look at you and move away from the officer. Your words prevented the officer from being stabbed again. Maybe the murderer was kneeling next to the officer and you thought that was a hard shot. With the bad guy standing and moving away from the officer you have a clearer shot with less risk of accidentally injuring an innocent party.
Rob- What else do you see?
Amanda- I want you to have basic trauma care training and materials. If your spouse is stabbed I want you to know how to keep them alive until EMTs arrive.
Now that I’ve given out homework for the week, our third story happened in Fullerton, California.
What did our defender do correctly?
(Bullet points by Roger T.)
The defender had a gun near him and he responded when he saw a police officer getting attacked.
The defender tried using verbal commands but they failed.
The defender shot the attacker while he was being rushed. Perhaps he knew about the Tueller Drill since the bad guy was stopped before he was able to complete his attack on the defender.
The defender stayed on the scene, radioed for help and gave a statement.
What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)?
(Bullet points by Roger T.)
According to www.handgunlaw.us, New Mexico law allows loaded handguns concealed in your car without a permit. This defender had his gun in his car instead of on his person. “Pants On, Gun On” is always best if you can. What would have happened if the defender was 25 feet from his car when he saw the attack? Would he have had time to get to his gun?
Learn about the Tueller Drill and how to use that information in a real fight. Remember, if someone is running at you, you can either step aside or start running away from the attacker in order to get more time to react. DON’T JUST STAND THERE- MOVE!
Did the defender know how to stop the police officer from bleeding out? Did he have a tourniquet or chest seal? Take a class and keep a trauma kit in your home and your car.
Rob- First this message from Doctors for Responsible Gun Ownership
You work as a security guard. Today, you’re standing in a strip mall jewelry store. It is about about noon on a weekday when you see three men get out of a car that pulled up outside the store. The car doesn’t park. The three men who got out are all wearing masks and they are carrying pistols in their hands. They start to walk toward the jewelry store.
You present your firearm and shoot at the robbers. They run back to their car, shooting at you as they run. The news stories aren’t clear if you called 911 or if someone in the store called them. Neither you, nor store employees, the store customers, or any bystanders outside the store are injured. You give a statement to the police when they arrive.
There is extensive news coverage of the event, but that doesn’t include the store security video. The owner says that jewelry stores are robbed because the jewelry is so easy to sell for cash. You were supposed to meet with the store owner today and talk about extending your employment and asking for more money. They seemed to like you before the attack. They certainly like you now. You are not charged with a crime.
Amanda- We have to stop and explain. A security guard is not a police officer. He does not have arrest powers. He doesn’t have a squad of guys who come running when he calls on the radio. He is a civilian with some training and a cheap blue uniform.
The guard saw a robbery unfolding. Good for him that he was doing his job rather than playing with his phone. He reacted which tells me he had a plan. We don’t know if he was inside or if he was already standing outside the store. We know he was outside the store when he started shooting at the bad guys. He didn’t chase them after arriving at the shooting location. He stayed at the scene and gave a statement to the police.
Rob- What else can we learn here?
Amanda- Ideally, the security guard is wearing clothes that you’d see on a customer or on an employee in the store. We want the staff and the guard to train together. The staff knows to drop to the floor when the guard yells “threat” or whatever their training word is. We want a panic alarm that calls 911 with one touch.
We want to hit our intended target with our first shots. Let me repeat. We want to hit our target the very first time. That takes training and practice. We also want to look at the store so the security guard has some cover when he defends the customers and staff.
I want every business owner to have a plan. You move the customers to safety. You check on them and then tell 911 what you need.
I want your store employees to be armed as well. There are lots or reasons why a single armed guard is a weak plan. Some stores who want high security use a revolving door so they can’t be rushed by a gang all at once.
Rob- Are there security consultants that can help convenience stores, jewelry stores, and marijuana dispensaries?
Amanda- There are consultants, and there are business groups who share what they’ve learned in the area. Depending on your business and your budget, there is help out there for you and your business
Rob- Where are we going for our last story? Amanda- Our fourth story took place in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.
What did our defender do correctly?
(Bullet points by Roger T.)
The security guard was armed and alert. He noticed the (3) attackers with masks and guns.
The defender recognised an immediate, lethal and unavoidable situation and reacted.
The defender stayed at the scene and provided a statement to the police.
What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)?
(Bullet points by Roger T.)
Ideally, the security guard should not have been in a uniform. That just puts a target on his back. Working in the showroom in plain clothes or being concealed behind a wall is much more effective.
Was the guard wearing a bullet-proof vest?
The guard fired multiple shots at (3) bad guys and didn’t hit any of them. Every bullet he fired has to hit someone or something.
Did the guard fire on the bad guys while they were still spread apart outside of the store or did he wait until each one of them came through the door and use it as a “fatal funnel”? Tactics are more important than firepower.
Did the guard use any cover or concealment?
Did the guard have the equipment and the training to stop the bleeding from a gunshot wound to himself or others?
Once the shooting was over, did the guard move everyone to the back of the store, out of sight and lock the doors? Sometimes the bad guys come back and they bring their friends.
Did the store have a plan in the event of a robbery? Did everyone know where to go and what to do? Was the plan rehearsed? If the first plan doesn’t work, what’s plan B? What would the store personnel do if the guard was shot?
What would have happened if the robbery took place during the guard’s lunch break? Does he stay in the store or go elsewhere? Who covers for him? What if he calls out sick?
If the store had a revolving door or a second door in a narrow breezeway, that would restrict the traffic flow to only one customer at a time. That makes it easier to defend.
You are waiting at an auto repair shop. Your 12 year old son is with you. You hear gunfire from the back of the repair shop. Your son grabs his head and falls down. You hear screams from inside. You see a man with a gun shooting at people inside the shop.
You have your Pennsylvania concealed carry permit. You’re armed today. You present your firearm and shoot at the attacker. Now he runs. You reholster your handgun and check on your son. News reports aren’t clear if you called 911, but a lot of customers did.
You and your son stay at the scene. You identify yourself to the police. EMTs take one of the mechanics to the hospital. Your son is treated for a graze wound at the scene and released. The officers say that the mechanic was the intended target and your son was struck by a stray shot.
You are not charged with a crime.
Amanda- This is the opposite extreme of a security guard at a jewelry store. He somewhat expects and is prepared for bad things to maybe happen. You’re going to have your car worked on and you take your son with you. You expect nothing. Unfortunately, a criminal decides to shoot the place up while you’re there and you have to defend your son and other innocent parties. Wow.
I’m glad our defender was licensed, trained, and armed. Well done. AND the big thing is here, does he take action to stop the shooting or render first aid to his child? He recognized it was time to shoot and he did. Hard as it is, you have to stop the threat first, THEN render first aid. He stopped the killer and then took care of his son. He stayed calm, working with EMT’s and gave a statement to the police.
Rob- What else can we learn from this story?
Amanda- If you can, I’d like you to participate in some defensive pistol classes, then move on to competitions USPA, or IPSIC. You see people move and shoot over and over. That is the antidote to training at an indoor shooting range where you’re forbidden to draw or move your feet. If you cant do that, at least when you dry practice I want you to move to cover as you draw.
As I said before, I want you to have medical training and a medical kit.
What did our defender do correctly?
(Bullet points by Roger T.)
Anyone. Anywhere. Anytime. The defender had his License to Carry a Firearm and he had a gun on him while going about his normal day.
The defender recognized an immediate, lethal and unavoidable situation. He drew his gun and fired on the attacker.
The defender stopped shooting when the attacker ran and he did not chase after him.
The defender stayed at the scene, holstered his gun, checked on his son and gave a statement to the police.
What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)?
(Bullet points by Roger T.)
The Fight, Flight or Freeze response kicked in but the defender did not freeze. He drew his gun and returned fire. Most untrained people freeze when the adrenaline rush hits. Stress inoculation training and pre-visualization help you respond instead of freezing. This training adds to your “Library of Responses”.
Again, the first rule of self-defense is “DON’T GET SHOT”! Hopefully, the defender grabbed his son and pulled him behind cover or concealment. Staying in the open can get you killed. Move first, then draw and return fire.
Head wounds can be very bloody. Did the defender know how to apply pressure to the wound with gauze or a clean cloth?
Since the defender didn’t hit the bad guy, this was a psychological stop not a physical one. The attacker met with resistance so he decided to run off. Let him go. Protect the wounded and make sure the bad guy doesn’t return. Lock the doors. Don’t reholster your gun until the police arrive but be sure to greet them with empty hands- no gun, no phone.
Exit-
Rob- That wraps up this episode. Amanda, thank you for helping us again. Where can we learn more about you?
Amanda- My eye on the target radio show is syndicated coast to coast on Sunday nights from 5 to 7 eastern time. The show is also on video at OpsLens. I instruct on the weekends in Northeastern Ohio. I’m part of the DCProject – Women for Gun rights that you can find at WomenForGunRights.org
Rob- After you listen to Amanda podcasts and watch her TV show, then please leave her a message on our podcast episode webpage.
Amanda- We share this podcast with you for free. Please share the podcast with a friend and give us a rating on I-Tunes and Listen Notes. We’re also available on Amazon, Tunein, Spotify, Podbean and iHeart Radio.
Rob- This show is part of the Self-defense radio network. Find more pro-freedom podcasts at sdrn.us
I’m Rob Morse. We’ll be back next week with more Self-Defense Gun Stories. ~_~_
Episode 340 with Tony Simon
Feb 09, 2024
Introduction-
Rob- Welcome to episode 340 of Self-Defense Gun Stories. We’re glad you found us if you’re well trained.. and if you’re still learning about armed defense. I’m Rob Morse and we’re joined this week by firearms instructor Tony Simon. What has been keeping you so busy?
Tony- Hi, Rob. I’ve been at shot show and then conducting Diversity Shoots here in New Jersey. I have five more planned already this year.
How about you?
Rob- We did not receive a comment on iTunes this week. Oh Facebook, Ray asked if we’d make an hour long podcast that came out once a month. I’m not sure if he wanted a best of show, or a deep dive into one or two stories. What do you think?
Dwayne sent in a news story where a 70 year old man used a muzzle loading rifle to fight off three intruders. Unfortunately, his son might have deliberately given the robbers access to the home. The link is in our show notes.
I also want to thank Roger for his help again this week.
Tony- Please go to the iTunes store where you subscribe to podcasts and tell new gun owners why you listen.
Here in the US, we defend ourselves with a firearm thousands of times a day. We look at a few recent examples to see what we can learn. The links back to the original news articles are on our podcast webpage.
Our first story took place last week in Bartlesville, Oklahoma.
It is early morning and you’re already at work on your laptop. You hear someone banging on the front door of your apartment. You hear them shout for you to open the door. You are not expecting visitors. You grab your gun and shout for the stranger to go away. You grab your phone and call 911.
The stranger keeps hitting your door. They break the door hinges out of the door and doorframe. They tear the security chain off the wall. The door flies across the room. Your intruder enters your home and you shoot him one time. He stops. News reports aren’t clear if your attacker fell inside your home or if he ran outside. You ask the police dispatcher for help.
You put your gun away when officers arrive. EMTs transport your attacker to the hospital. You give the police a statement. You don’t know the intruder. You are not charged with a crime.
Later you find out that your 23-year-old intruder had been scammed and thought he was meeting someone for sex.
Tony- You are the fastest responder to your emergency. The defender was prepared to defend herself with deadly force if necessary.
I’m relieved that she owned a gun. I like that her doors were locked during the day. I love it that she didn’t open the door for a stranger.
It sounds like she was armed at home or at least had her firearm nearby. She got her gun and called the police as the problem developed. She stayed on the call with the dispatcher, but she put the phone down and stopped talking when it was time to defend herself.
She stopped shooting when the attack stopped. She made herself available for the police when they arrived. All that sounds like a plan to me. Good job.
Rob- When did this become a gun problem?
Tony- When a stranger displays enough force and violence to break down your front door, then you face a lethal threat or serious bodily harm. That threat is immediate and it is unavoidable. That justifies both the lethal use of force and the moral use of force to stop the threat.
Rob- There is a time to talk and there is a time to shoot. When do you help your students build that line in their decision making?
Tony- Your immediate need is to make yourself safe. De-escalation is good but recognize when it isn’t working or when it’s employment is useless. I use this podcast as teachable moments for students and when I discuss armed civilian self defense.
The attacker kicking her door in wasn’t stopped by her telling him that she was armed or that she called police. Once the door was kicked open it was time for the immediate application of force.
This is a good example of that decision making since home invasions are common.
Rob- What else do you see in this story that wasn’t mentioned by the police or the reporters?
Tony- I’m glad she wasn’t next to the door when it was shoved into the house. Also, we can use a doorway to make defense easier. The bad guy is going to come through the door. That means we can aim our gun at the floor immediately inside the door ahead of time. We can pay attention to the door. We want to be far away from the door, preferably in another room looking at the door from behind something to conceal our location. I’m imagining being behind a couch or a doorframe. That makes it easier to aim because we don’t have to track the attacker with our eyes and our gun.
Rob- Our attacker shot one time. What do you recommend?
Tony- Shoot multiple times then assess if the threat stops. Firing and hitting an attacker with one round, especially with a handgun, may not stop the threat immediately. They may not have suffered a “fight stopping” hit that immobilizes them. They may not know they are even hit. They could still attack you even though you have shot them.
Don’t make a habit of shooting a particular number of times when you train. Practice firing a string of accurate shots. If you have an instructor training with you, they should tell you that the threat is down, and then you access the target and if the target is down or stops attacking you stop shooting. Some ranges have turning targets.
Rob- Is there more you want to say about this story, or should we go on?
Tony- Our second story happened in Jackson, Mississippi.
What did our defender do correctly?
(Bullet points by Roger T.)
The defender had a plan: Her doors were locked. She had a gun. She did not open the door. She shouted through the closed door for the intruder to leave. She called 911 immediately.
Once the door broke, she was in an immediate, lethal and unavoidable situation. She fired only after the door was breached and she stopped shooting when the intruder stopped.
She stayed on the line with 911 and gave a statement to the police.
What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)?
(Bullet points by Roger T.)
Good thing she wasn’t in front of the door when the intruder broke it down. Never stand in front of a door because you will be hit by the falling door if the hinges and the lock give out. Also you don’t want to be in the line of fire if the attacker starts shooting through a closed door. Stand to the side at a distance.
Doors are “fatal funnels”. You can cover a door from a defensive position behind cover or concealment away from the door. The intruder can’t move out of the way once the door breaks. Your gun is a distance tool. Use that to your advantage. “Distance and cover are your best friends.”
The defender only fired one shot. In this particular case that was enough to stop the intrusion. How many shots should you fire? Zero, a full magazine or anything in-between. Fire as many shots as it takes to stop the threat. The threat isn’t over until the bad guy retreats (without shooting back at you), he surrenders or he’s down and not moving. As long as the bad guy is still moving, he can continue his attack. And always remember “Don’t turn your back on anything but a corpse.” Also make sure to scan the area and make sure the bad guy didn’t bring friends with him.
You are a contractor doing a job for the city water department. You and your co-workers are on site when a car drives up. A man gets out of the car and starts yelling. He draws a gun and starts shooting at you. You and your co-worker shoot back. Your attacker drives away. You stay at the scene and call 911 for help. You put your guns away when the police arrive.
You and your partner give statements to the police. Your attacker crashes his car nearby. EMS takes him to the hospital for treatment of three gunshot wounds. He will be charged with aggravated assault when he is released. One of the news reports said the attacker knew one of the contractors. You are not charged with a crime.
Tony- I have spent time in Jackson MS. Depending where in Jackson, it can be a dangerous place.
I’m glad these men were gun owners and that they were armed at work. We can’t tell if they were marking pavement on the street or if they were in someone’s yard and chest deep in a construction hole.
They recognized an immediate, lethal, and unavoidable threat when someone drove up and shot at them. They defended themselves. They stopped shooting when the attacker drove away. They called for help and gave a statement to the police.
Rob- Some states allow government contractors to carry. Some states encourage EMTs and firemen to carry. How do we find out what is legal and expected?
Tony- Start with your lawyer. Second best is to ask your boss and your local firearms instructor. If this is a union job, then they are involved too. You have to know the law if your routinely travel onto government property. You also need to understand that regardless of the law you are responsible for your safety and security.
Rob- What else would you like your students to think about at work.
Tony- We don’t all work in an office wearing office clothes. We might have on a work shirt and boots. We might carry a tool bag with us. That brings its own issues with concealed carry, and those issues change more with the seasons than if you’re working in an airconditioned office.
I want you to carry on your body because you might be dead by the time you run back to your truck to grab your gun that is hidden under the seat in a rapid access gun safe.
Rob- What else do you see here?
Tony- The story doesn’t mention it, but I want you to shout if you can. We want ear witnesses who heard you shout ‘stop’ before you shot back. Shouting stop doesn’t mean you have to stop moving. You can shout as you present your gun and move toward cover.
Afterward, I want you to be sure and shout for others to call 911. That means all the ear witnesses are listed at the 911 response center.
Shouting, moving, and presenting under some stress are all parts of advanced training. As ordinary as it sounds, this defense was hard work.
Rob- Where are we going next?
Tony- Our third story happened in Chicago, Illinois.
What did our defender do correctly?
(Bullet points by Roger T.)
Anyone! Anywhere! Anytime!: These contractors were armed as they did their normal jobs. The attacker always has the advantage of knowing when, where and how the attack will take place. These defenders were prepared.
Firearm Availability: It sounds like they had their guns on them when they were attacked. If your gun is out of reach, it’s useless. You could be dead by the time you go to your truck to get your gun. Reaction time is critical.
Accuracy Under Stress: The two contractors hit the attacker three times while under attack. That takes training and practice. Fortunately, the defenders moved and the attacker was not a good shot.
The defenders stayed on the scene, called 911. Met the police with empty hands and gave brief statements.
What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)?
(Bullet points by Roger T.)
Carrying At Work. Is it legal to carry a gun at work? That depends on your state and whether you work for a private company or the government. Every state has a list of places where you can/can not carry a concealed gun. A good place to start is www.handgunlaw.us. In some states, a “no guns allowed” sign carries the weight of law and you can be prosecuted if your gun is discovered. In other states, a “no guns allowed” sign merely means that you have to leave the property if your gun is discovered and you are asked to leave. If you refuse to leave you can be charged with criminal trespassing. If you work for a private company and they have a “no guns” policy, you can be terminated for carrying on the job or sometimes in the company’s parking lot. If you work for the government (especially federal), you may be prosecuted. It also makes a difference if you are the owner of a business or just a worker (Castle Doctrine usually covers your home, your car and your business.) Check with a lawyer, take some classes or some pre-paid self-defense insurance plans let you call and ask them. KNOW THE LAWS FOR EVERYWHERE YOU WANT TO CARRY. You also have to know the magazine capacity restrictions and the type of ammo allowed. Even whether you can carry a back-up gun or not. Every state is different.
You’re at home and asleep in your bed. You’re startled awake by a crashing sound. You hear someone in your apartment. You grab your gun and go investigate what is happening. You see someone in your apartment and they rush at you. You shoot them before they reach you. You step back and turn on the lights. You grab your phone and call 911 for help. You stay at the scene.
You stay on the call with the police dispatcher. You put your gun away when the police are nearby. Police arrest your intruder. EMTs take him to the hospital with a gunshot wound to the leg. You give the police a statement. You show them your identification and your concealed carry permit.
Since you knew the intruder, this is being called a domestic incident. You are not charged with a crime.
Tony- Some crimes are random, but a lot of them involve someone who knows us. It might have been a friend of a friend of a roommate, but they somehow think that you have something they want.
I’m glad our defender went through the trouble of legally getting a gun and a carry permit in Chicago. You don’t need a carry permit to be armed at home, but it helps. Suppose you are armed at home, but you want to go to the laundry room, or the trash chute, or the mailbox, and that way you can leave the gun on you rather than having to take it off all the time as you do chores.
Again, our defender recognized that an intruder in the middle of the night is a threat. This is different than our first story since the defender didn’t recognize a problem until the intruder was already inside his home.
They defended themselves and then asked for help.
Rob- How do we store a firearm so we can get it in a hurry, but it is also secure when it isn’t in a holster on our body?
Tony- Concealment furniture is a great option that allows you quick access to your firearm while it’s hidden in plain sight. NJ Concealment Furniture was making handmade furniture and the owner started producing furniture with hidden secured compartments to hold your firearms. To open the compartments you would have to know where the secret release was located or use various access control methods that they in install in his shop. He’s no longer making furniture but that’s how I learned about keeping firearms close but out of sight. There are other companies that produce this type of furniture .
Rob- Lots of people think they are safe in an upstairs apartment. The building is solid concrete. There is a security gate outside. Do they need a motion detector in their home?
Tony- I think they do. They need it for the same reason they have a carbon monoxide detector in their home, for the same reason they have a smoke detector in their home. They might have a problem in their home and not know it until it’s too late.
Rob- How much do those cost?
Tony- From 20 to 100 dollars. Do you want the detector to text your phone when you’re not at home?
Rob- Do you see anything else?
Tony- Consider putting your flashlight in your bedside gun safe. You have to identify your attacker. Identity is a big consideration in a home invasion. On the street, the flashlight might encourage the attacker to go after someone else.
I’d normally ask you to retreat to your bedroom, but this guy just kicked in your front door, so he is going to easily kick through a bedroom door. That said, shooting him when he crosses your bedroom doorway is an easier shot and it is easier to defend legally. Those legal issues are real, particularly in Chicago.
Also, where do you keep your cell phone at night?
Rob- Where are we going for our last story? Tony- Our fourth story took place in Upper Darby, Pennsylvania.
What did our defender do correctly?
(Bullet points by Roger T.)
The defender had a plan. He took the time, the effort and the money to get a carry license in Chicago- that’s not easy nor cheap.
The defender recognized that he was in an immediate, lethal and unavoidable situation when the intruder broke in and rushed him. It doesn’t matter whether the defender knew the intruder or not. The defender was still under attack.
The defender stopped shooting when the threat stopped. He called 911 and gave a statement to the police.
What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)?
(Bullet points by Roger T.)
Flashlights: Either a handheld or weapon-mounted flashlight should be part of everyone’s home defense system. Your gun, an extra magazine or ammo, a flashlight and your cell phone are the essential items for your “go bag”. Using a flashlight to identify your intruder and assist in aiming your gun is critical. Don’t shoot at shapes, shadows and sounds. Know what your target is and what’s beyond it.
Best Practice for a Home Invasion: If you hear a strange noise- don’t investigate! Trying to clear a house by yourself is very dangerous. Call 911 and stay on the line with them. Retreat to a defensible room. Turn the lights off in that room. Put some furniture in front of the locked door. Take a defensive position off to the side of the door. Get behind some cover or concealment and cover the door with your gun/flashlight with your finger OFF the trigger. Do not shoot until the door is breached.
You are sitting in your car. It is after midnight and a white car drives by. That car knocks the side mirror off your car. You drive after them to get a license plate number. The white car stops and a man gets out of the back seat. He has a gun in his hand and walks toward you yelling for you to get out of your car. You are being carjacked.
You have your concealed carry permit in your wallet. You have your personal handgun in a holster on your hip. The news isn’t clear if you get out of the car or remain inside. You present your firearm and shoot your attacker. He shoots back and runs to the white car. They drive away. It isn’t clear when you put your gun away and if you called 911.
A police officer nearby hears the shots. He asks you what happened. You tell him about the car, the mirror, and the carjacking. The officer puts out a description of the white car and the robbers. You show the officer your identification and your carry permit.
Police follow the white car and catch two of the three robbers. One of the robbers is taken to the hospital for treatment of a gunshot wound. The white car was stolen yesterday. You are not charged with a crime.
Tony- I like that our defender had a gun because that might have saved his life. I like that he shot when he saw the lethal, immediate and unavoidable threat. I particularly like that he hit a moving target in dim light.
Rob- What would you like your students to do in this case?
Tony- Don’t cause a twenty-thousand dollar legal problem to solve a 200-dollar auto parts problem. Don’t chase strange cars after midnight. Call the cops. For the price of the mirror, you could buy a video camera for your car.
I know it is tempting to sit in the car as it warms up, but you’re not safe there. Dress warm enough that you can get started even when the car is cold. I don’t know what to do about a frozen windshield. I don’t have a perfect solution, but I want you to keep your head up and look around.
If you can, make the 911 call. That puts you in the police register as someone who was a victim. That and your carry permit change the way the officers react to you.
Rob- What you said is more than what we learn in a concealed carry class. When would you cover getting out of your car and then shooting on the move in low light?
Tony- I don’t teach low light classes but I hosted low light classes taught by qualified instructors. It is very important to get training in facing deadly threats during the hours of darkness. That’s when a significant percentage of attacks occur.
Rob- Definitely more than beginning firearms safety.
Tony- Usually after concealed carry and holster presentation. Those advanced classes are there if you look for them.
What did our defender do correctly?
(Bullet points by Roger T.)
Fortunately, the defender was armed and had a carry permit.
However, he did not have a plan and he used poor judgment. .
What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)?
(Bullet points by Roger T.)
Don’t Look Like Sheep: Sitting alone in a car at night, in the dark is an invitation to criminals to take your car, your wallet and maybe even your life. If you have to sit in a parked car for whatever reason, go to a place that has lights, cameras and witnesses. Keep your head up, on a swivel and be aware of your surroundings. If you don’t, you look like “sheep” to the “wolves” they won’t eat you. Learn to look at yourself and your actions through the eyes of a criminal. Are you easy prey or are you too much trouble?
Emotional Control: Strong emotions cloud your judgment. Chasing someone who hits your car and takes off is only asking for trouble. If you chase someone, you may become the aggressor in a self-defense case. The defender should have stayed in his car where he was hit and called 911 with a description of the other car and passengers. Insurance covers hit and run accidents. Let the police do their job. Carrying a gun does not make you invincible.
The Soft Skills: The end of the news article states that the district attorney is still deciding whether to charge the driver whose car was hit. The only time you are allowed to use deadly force is if trouble comes looking for you. De-escalate, evade, escape, avoid and only when all of those fail are you permitted to defend yourself.
Exit-
Rob- That wraps up this episode. Tony, thank you for helping us again. Where can we learn more about you?
Rob- After you look at Tony articles and his schedule, then leave us a message on the podcast episode webpage.
Tony- We share this podcast with you for free. Please share the podcast with a friend and give us a rating on I-Tunes and Listen Notes. We’re also available on Amazon, Google Podcasts, Tunein, Spotify, Podbean and iHeart Radio.
Rob- This show is part of the Self-defense radio network. Find more pro-freedom podcasts at sdrn.us
I’m Rob Morse. We’ll be back in a few weeks with more Self-Defense Gun Stories.
Episode 339 with Robyn Sandoval
Feb 02, 2024
Introduction-
Rob- Welcome to episode 339 of Self-Defense Gun Stories. We’re glad you found us if you’re well trained.. and if you’re still learning about armed defense. I’m Rob Morse and we’re joined this week by firearms instructor Robyn Sandoval. What have you been doing since we talked?
Robyn at the Range
Robyn- Hi, Rob. I just returned from SHOT Show. I had 2 range days, 2 podcasts, and 30 meetings in just five days, but it was great to get some facetime with A Girl & A Gun sponsors and friends. Now I’m back in the office planning events for 2024. How about you?
Rob- I’m good and I’ve been doing some dry practice at home and with students in their homes.
We received a comment on the podcast webpage. Dave said he has been listening for years. He points out that Minnesota citizens need a permit simply to purchase a handgun. He also notes that a carry permit isn’t required to defend yourself at home or at work. He still recommends getting one because the carry class helps gun owners learn their state laws.
In addition to Dave, I also want to thank Roger for his help this week.
Robyn- You can go to the iTunes store and subscribe to our podcast and tell new gun owners why you listen.
Here in the US, we defend ourselves with a firearm thousands of times a day. We look at a few recent examples to see what we can learn. The links back to the original news articles are on our podcast webpage.
Our first story took place last week in Edgewater, Illinois.
You are walking down the street before dawn on a weekday. Two cars stop in the street in front of you. Men get out of the cars and one man walks toward you. He is armed. He demands your possessions. You move to cover and present your firearm. Your attacker shoots at you and you shoot at him. He runs to the car and your attackers drive away. You stay at the scene and call 911 for help.
You stay on the line with the dispatcher. You put your gun away as the police arrive. You give them a brief statement and then show them your ID. You also show them your Illinois concealed carry card. Police find blood on the street.
Later, you find out that robbers using similar vehicles robbed two other victims on the street that morning. You are not charged with a crime.
Robyn- Good for our defender for paying attention, and being prepared by already having a concealed carry card and a firearm. This means that he wasn’t just equipped with the tools, he had taken some training classes and really put some consideration into his personal safety. Plus, he was carrying on the street that morning when he was attacked.
I love that our good guy had his head out of his earphones and was paying attention to what was happening around him. He saw his attack unfold. He presented his gun and moved. He defended himself and stopped shooting when the bad guys took off. He called for help. He met the police with empty hands. He gave a statement to the officers.
Rob- Besides not being in Chicago, or not being there alone in the dark, what else would you like your students to do to be safer in a similar situation?
Robyn- Maybe our defender could have done more to avoid being selected that morning. How was his walking gate or pace and his posture? Could he have had a flashlight in his support hand? Having one tool could have been a tell to the attackers that he also had other tools on board. He could also use the light to temporarily blind or distract the attacker, and to gain more information so that he can articulate his defensive actions and mindset. Also, I would like him to consider his preparedness and efficiency. Was he wearing gloves? Did he dry practice with the gloves on? Be sure that you practice how you live… make sure your finger fits into the trigger guard, or maybe choose to wear thin gloves when you carry.
Rob- What classes usually come after you get your carry permit?
Robyn- Take a class where we use movement and cover as we shoot. Take a class where you get to shoot from new positions, like crouching, kneeling, sitting, or lying down. I also want you to take a class where you shoot in low light conditions. There were probably street lights, but it can be hard to see your sights, especially when you’re target focused
Rob- Are there pre paid insurance plans that you like?
Robyn- Yes, given that this is Chicago, have a lawyer to call. There are a number of great options in the market these days. The Armed Citizens’ Legal Defense Network, US Law Shield, USCCA, Right to Bear. Do your research and select one (or more) that meet your needs.
Rob- Before we move on, I noticed that there are a couple of stories each week where licensed concealed carriers defend themselves in Chicago. Where is our next story?
Robyn- Our second story happened in Houston, Texas
What did our defender do correctly?
(Bullet points by Roger T.)
This defender had a plan. He wasn’t lucky, he was prepared for a possible attack. He had a gun, a permit and some training.
When he recognized that he was in an immediate, lethal and unavoidable situation his training kicked in. He moved (hopefully to cover) as he pulled his gun and defended himself against multiple attackers.
He stayed at the scene, called the police and met them with empty hands.
He survived this attack because he was trained and equipped. Good job.
What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)?
(Bullet points by Roger T.)
Carrying and using a flashlight properly can be just as important as carrying and using a gun. Sometimes it can be a deterrent and it can always help to identity your target.
It is just after midnight on a weekday. You’re expecting one of your family members to arrive home. You hear them arrive, and then you hear shouts outside. You look outside and see three men robbing your family member.
You grab your gun and go outside. You shoot at your attackers. They shoot back as they run. Two of them drive away while the third one falls down. You check on your family and then call 911 for help.
You put your gun away when the police arrive. They use a police dog to find your wounded attacker. You and your family give the police brief statements. EMTs take your attacker to the hospital. Your attacker is charged with aggravated robbery. You are not charged with a crime.
Robyn- This is similar to the first story, but it happened late at night, at home, and there were more armed attackers.
I love that a family member was looking out for someone arriving home. They saw a problem and then reacted to it. They had a firearm nearby so that they could help effectively. They also had a firearm that gave them enough rounds to be able to address multiple armed assailants. The good guys stopped shooting when the bad guys drove away.
Rob- What else would you want us to do?
Robyn- They story says that the victim was attacked as he was getting out of his car. The pictures of the home show a strong fence as if the home had livestock in the yard. That often means there is a gate, so make sure you close the gate immediately so that strangers cannot approach our house.
This makes me wonder if he was followed or if he could have made some different decisions. If he was going followed, could he have kept driving and not gone home? If a car was parked in front of the house with attackers planning an ambush, could he have kept driving and called the police? Maybe he called home or a neighbor and asked for more information.
Another good option would be to add motion lights that light up the driveway and the side of the house when we arrive home. Let’s light up the porch as we get out of our car. And be mindful of HOW we get out of the car. Know areas of hard cover using your vehicle, how to bail out and get to cover, or when to stay in the vehicle, drive, or shoot from inside. We cover all of these techniques in our A Girl & A Gun DRIFT Academy course.
And suppose you or your family member was wounded. Do you have first aid or trauma supplies and do you know how to use them?
All of that is way too much to figure out at midnight, so you and your family need a safety plan. Although these two stories were similar, think about how different their safety plans would be.
And, if nothing else, all responsible adults should have their permits, and be armed and trained. Did I say that?
Rob- You did now. Where are we going for our third news story?
Robyn- We’re headed to Salem, Indiana.
Rob- First this message from the Crime Prevention Research Center.
What did our defender do correctly?
(Bullet points by Roger T.)
The defender was situationally aware and responded when the family was in danger.
The defender had a gun and it was nearby. A gun in a safe is useless when you need it for self-defense.
The defender stopped shooting when the attackers left.
The defender checked on her family, called 911 and gave the police a statement.
What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)?
(Bullet points by Roger T.)
Lights and cameras! Turn on lights. Add motion-activated lights and video cameras.
Transitional spaces- going from your car to a building puts you in a vulnerable position- be aware.
Use cover and concealment to your advantage.
Get the training and equipment to stop the bleeding from a gunshot wound to yourself and/or others.
You let a friend sleep on your couch because he had problems with his girlfriend. Now your friend starts an argument in your home. He attacks your two female roommates. He attacks you and shatters a glass cabinet. You get your gun. The next time he attacks you, you shoot him. Now he stops so you stop shooting. You call 911 and ask for help. Your roommates apply first aid.
Police and EMTs arrive. You put your gun away. You and your roommates meet the officers with empty hands. All of you give statements to the police about what happened. EMTs declare your attacker dead at the scene. Police also interview your neighbors to find out what they heard.
You’re taken to the police station as detectives go over the reports. Your attacker was convicted of domestic violence. Your attacker had to leave his home after again attacking a domestic partner. You are released and not charged with a crime. The news reports don’t mention if you and your roommates needed medical attention.
Robyn- With friends like this, who needs enemies? So I like that our defender had a gun to defend himself and his roommates. He stopped the repeated assaults in his home. He called for help and the roommates applied first aid. There were lots of witnesses and they each gave a statement to the officers.
Rob- What else do you see in this story?
Robyn- Don’t bring a person with a history of violence into your home. It isn’t safe for you or the other people you live with. Reading the story, we can’t tell if the attacker had a history of psychological problems or addiction, but what might have happened if the defender was not home when the attacker assaulted the roommates.
If you know people like this in your life, make sure that your a safety plan addresses who we invite home. Think about how intoxicated or emotional someone can be before they are not allowed inside. Do you call the police? Do you put them up at a hotel? Do you lock the doors and don’t respond? Think through your options, what is realistic for your life, and how you can manage those relationships in a way that doesn’t put you or your roommates in danger.
I said it before that I’d like all responsible adults to be armed so they can defend themselves and innocent people. This means that if you have irresponsible people or strangers in your home, then you need to have a secure place to store your firearm when it isn’t in a holster on your body.
Rob- Was this a gun problem?
Robyn- This is a lethal force problem that is primarily a disparity of force issue. A young adult man was beating up the women who lived in the home. As an adult male, you might stop him by going hand to hand, but maybe not if he is much larger or more skilled than you, and probably not if you are female. You have to be able to determine if you are faced with a lethal, immediate, and unavoidable threat, and you have to be able to articulate that what you did was the safest option.
Rob- Should we treat an injured attacker?
Robyn- Your heart may say yes, your lawyer might say maybe, and your firearms instructor says absolutely not. Your safety is your priority. The police won’t let the EMTs near the attacker until he is disarmed and handcuffed.
Rob- Where are we going for our last story?
Robyn- Our fourth story took place in Dothan, Alabama.
What did our defender do correctly?
(Bullet points by Roger T.)
The defender was trying to help his so-called friend but that person turned out to be an attacker.
The defender recognized that he and his roomates were in an immediate, lethal and unavoidable situation.
The defender grabbed his gun and shot the attacker until the attack stopped.
The defender called 911 and put his gun away when the police arrived.
The defender and the roomates all gave the police statements.
What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)?
(Bullet points by Roger T.)
The roommates trying to stop the attacker’s bleeding wound put all of them in danger. Don’t approach an attacker until they are restrained and someone is covering them.
Did the defender know that his “friend” was convicted of domestic abuse? Be careful who you invite into your home.
Hopefully, the defender had his gun on his body or in a quick-access safe. If you own a gun, it must be under your control at all times.
Did the defender have another gun available? Most likely, his gun would be confiscated by the police as evidence for quite some time. The defender may need another gun in case of retaliation from the attacker’s friends or family. “Two is one and one is none.”
It is Saturday and you’re walking down the street. A man walks up beside you and asks you for help with his phone. Then he draws a gun and demands your purse. He grabs your purse and pulls on it. You present your firearm and shoot at your attacker. He drops your purse and runs. You call 911 and ask for the police.
You put your gun away when the police arrive. You give the officers a brief statement and point out witnesses. Other people called 911 when they heard shots. Police find your attacker nearby. They also find his gun. He was using a bb-gun to rob people.
Your attacker is charged with first degree robbery and held on a 60-thousand dollar cash bail. You are not charged with a crime.
Robyn- These situations happen in just an instant. She was looking down the barrel of a gun and kept her mind focused. The robber grabbed her purse, so that makes me think the armed defender had her firearm on her body so she could still reach it. She identified an immediate, lethal, and unavoidable threat so she was justified to use lethal force in her defense. The defender stopped shooting when the attacker was not a threat any longer.
Rob- Is there anything else you’d like your students to do?
Robyn- Practice your MUC and de-escalation skills. MUC is M-U-C, which is an acronym that stands for Managing Unknown Contacts. Craig Douglas from ShivWorks coined these techniques and Chuck Haggard from Agil Tactical also teaches this at our A Girl & A Gun National Conference. Have situational awareness and use your words as someone approaches you. This can help with the victim de-selection process and at best, the bad guy will just move on to the next person. At worst, it articulates your mindset and actions, and it creates good witnesses. Speak clearly, “No. I can’t help you.” and if he doesn’t leave, increase your intensity and volume. “Get away now!”
Anyone who comes closer after you say that isn’t asking for help. They are a threat who is trying to get closer to you. That is when you prepare to defend yourself and potentially draw your gun and move to cover if necessary.
As you’re moving down the street, keep your head up so you see threats as they are approaching. That way you can escape before they are so close that they could grab you or your purse.
Practice presenting your pistol from concealment while we’re wearing your work clothes, winter coat, winter gloves, and purse. Practice this at home without ammunition in the gun and no ammunition in the room at all.
It will take you about 15 minutes a night over several evenings for you to become consistent. Then, you can go to the range and practice live fire.
I’d like you to practice presentation where you bring the gun all the way up and use the sights. Bring the sights into your line of sights; don’t peek over the pistol. You want good, high center hits, not in the belly. You may also practice shooting from retention, but take a close-quarter class so you learn the proper technique.
Our defender made one shot and missed her attacker. Then she stopped shooting. Shoot until the attacker is no longer a threat.
Rob- When do your students learn to defend themselves from someone who is so close that the attacker can grab them or their gun?
What did our defender do correctly?
(Bullet points by Roger T.)
The defender had a gun with her and it was not in her purse. If the gun was in the purse, the defender would not have been able to get to it in time since the attacker yanked the purse off the defender’s shoulder.
The defender fired one shot but missed. Fortunately, the attacker decided to run off rather than stay and fight.
The called 911, gave police a brief statement and pointed out witnesses.
What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)?
(Bullet points by Roger T.)
Situational Awareness: How big is your sphere of influence? The more you pay attention, the better armed and trained you are the larger your sphere becomes and the better your chances are of surviving an attack. Distance gives you time to react.
It’s OK to be rude in public. The answer to every unsolicited question on the streets is “NO!” and walk away quickly. Criminals use innocent questions in order to get within your sphere of influence and to get you to lower your guard. That’s part of their “victim interview process”. You want to fail that interview. Do something unexpected so as to break their OODA (Observe, Orient, Decide, Act) loop.
On the body carry: Carrying a gun and/or pepper spray on your body is the best way to insure that your self-defense tool(s) are readily available and under your control.
The defender probably missed because she didn’t know how to shoot from a retention position. Knowing how to shoot from a retention position and also how to shoot while moving to cover are more important than knowing how to get tight groups at a square range. You can practice these techniques using a “dry” gun, a laser gun or an airsoft gun.
The attacker used a BB gun instead of a real gun but legally that doesn’t matter. A defender must assume that an imitation gun is real or even a “finger gun” in a pocket is real and act accordingly.
Exit-
Rob- That wraps up this episode. Robyn, thank you for helping us again. Where can we learn more about you?
Robyn- Look for me at A Girl and a Gun dot org, and at and A Girl & A Gun on all of the social media pages. We have chapters all across the country.
Rob- After you find a chapter of a girl and a gun near you, then leave us a message on the podcast episode webpage.
Robyn- We share this podcast with you for free. Please share the podcast with a friend and give us a rating on I-Tunes and Listen Notes. We’re also available on Amazon, Google Podcasts, Tunein, Spotify, Podbean and iHeart Radio.
Rob- This show is part of the Self-defense radio network. Find more pro-freedom podcasts at sdrn.us
I’m Rob Morse. We’ll be back in a few weeks with more Self-Defense Gun Stories.
~_~_
Episode 338 with Andee Reardon
Jan 26, 2024
Introduction-
Rob- Welcome to episode 338 of Self-Defense Gun Stories. We’re glad you found us if you’re well trained.. and if you’re still learning about armed defense. I’m Rob Morse and we’re joined this week by firearms instructor Andee Reardon. What has been keeping you so busy?
Andee Reardon
Andee- Hi, Rob. I’ve been busy trying to catch up on work. Over the weekend I taught two women’s classes, basic pistol and the USCCA’s Women’s concealed carry and then Monday night we had Ladies’ night on the range at my local indoor shooting range where we get together. This weekend I’ll be teaching outdoors in the Maine elements so I’m praying for decent weather. I was in Boston last week and sadly had to leave my gun at home. I’m really glad to have it back.
How about you?
Rob- I was sick for most of December, then I was traveling overseas again. I carried when I got back in the US. It’s funny that I was waiting for the rain to stop so I could go for a run, and you were waiting for the snow to stop so you could go to the gym.
I want to thank Roger for his help with the stories this week. I’d like you to help new listeners find us by going to the iTunes store where you subscribe to podcasts. Tell new gun owners why you listen.
Andee- Here in the US, we defend ourselves with a firearm thousands of times a day. We look at a few recent examples to see what we can learn. The links back to the original news articles are on our podcast webpage.
Our first story took place last week in Katy, Texas.
You are at home in the middle of the morning on Sunday. You hear someone banging on your apartment door. One of your male roommates opens the door. A man and a woman force their way inside and attack your male roommate. Your roommate fights back.
You grab your gun and shoot your two attackers. You stop shooting when they stop hitting your roommate. The woman falls down. The news reports aren’t clear if you called 911 or if your roommates did. Your neighbors also called 911 to report shots fired. You put your gun away before the police arrive.
EMTs declare your female attacker dead at the scene. The male attacker is taken to the hospital for treatment of life threatening gunshot wounds. You and your roommates give statements to the police. There is another male and two children in the home. They are uninjured. You are not charged with a crime.
Andee- I like that one of the defenders owned a gun. She had it within reach when she needed it. She recognized that the several people who were beating her roommate posed an immediate, lethal, and unavoidable threat. She shot them until the threat stopped, then she stopped shooting. Someone called 911. The defender met the police with empty hands, and all of the roommates stayed at the scene and gave statements to the police.
Rob- The good news is that there were witnesses. The bad news is that witnesses say things that can get us into trouble. What else do you want your students to do in a situation like this?
Andee- I want all of you to form a plan. That includes children so they know not to open the door and let strangers into your home and they know where to hide for safety. You have the right to open the door, but it is almost always a bad plan. The bad guys outside are not a lethal threat until you open the door. Having a stationary weapon (doesn’t need to be a firearm) by the door so you have access to something if you’re fighting off someone coming through the door. If they’re trying to push their way through, some pepper spray or a hit from a blunt object might back them up enough to get the door shut and locked. But, I’d rather you not open it in the first place. You should be able to see on the other side of the door, by means of a peep hole, window or camera system. Preferably, a way to see out but keep others from seeing in.
Having a safety plan in place with several people in the home means someone can call 911 even while the bad guys are outside beating on the door. Make that someone’s job so they know that they are the person who calls 911 and gets the police on the way. Being armed is part of the plan. An armed defender can yell that they are armed and that the police are on their way.
Part of that safety plan is knowing what to say to police. All members of the household should be informed what they should and shouldn’t say while being questioned. Including, “I do not give permission to search my home, vehicle or person”.
In this kind of situation, I want everyone to retreat away from the front door to another room (your safe room) while the defender is standing behind cover or concealment, yet where she can see the front doorway.
Since there were children in the apartment, the defender’s gun should have either been on her body in a holster, or in a quick-access safe.
Rob- That is a lot to get right. When do your students learn about defending their home?
Andee- We talk about it a little bit in the beginners class since the majority of students are there for self defense reasons. But you have to crawl before you walk, get the basics down first. As students progress and take more advanced classes, we cover things like building your own personal safety plan, how to use effective cover and concealment, etc.
Rob- Is there more you want to cover about this story, or should we go on?
Andee- Our second story happened in Peoria, Illinois.
What did our defender do correctly?
(Bullet points by Roger T.)
The defender owned a gun which was within quick reach when she needed it.
The defender recognized that her roommate was in an immediate, lethal and unavoidable situation because he was being attacked by two other people.
The defender shot both attackers until they stopped hitting her roommate.
The defender stopped shooting when the threat was over, stayed at the scene and called 911.
The defender put her gun away when police arrived and gave them a statement.
What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)?
(Bullet points by Roger T.)
Someone banging on your door is not a lethal threat until you either open the door which gives them access or until the door breaks and allows the attackers to enter. DON’T OPEN THE DOOR.
There were a number of people in the apartment when the attackers started banging on the door. Any one of them could have called 911 while the defender who had a gun could have yelled through the door to the attackers that 911 had been called, that she was armed and that they should leave.
The defender should have directed that everyone in the apartment retreat away from the door to another room while she took a defensive position behind cover or concealment in sight of the door in case the attackers broke the door down.
If the attacker were to break down the door then the defender should have fired on them while they were lined up in the “fatal funnel”.
Since there were children in the apartment, the defender’s gun should have either been on her body or in a quick-access safe.
You’re helping your friend buy a car. He sees a vehicle he likes on Facebook Marketplace. You go with him to look at the car after work. When you get to the location, you see two men waiting for you. They say the car is around the corner. There, you see three more men, and they have guns in their hands. You’re being robbed.
You have a concealed carry license and you’re armed. Your attackers start shooting and you shoot back. Everyone runs. You and your friend are not wounded and you stay nearby. You call 911 and ask for help.
Police and EMTs arrive and you put your gun away. The officers find one of your attackers nearby. He is wounded. EMTs try to save his life but then pronounce him dead at the scene.
You and your friend give statements to the police. You show them your Identification and your carry permit. Your friend shows them the Facebook advertisement. You are not charged with a crime, but the police suggest using the police parking lot to make exchanges.
Andee- I like that the buyer brought a friend, there’s safety in numbers. Unfortunately, the bad guys had more numbers and often do. Sellers can be robbed of their property. Buyers can be robbed of their money. They made a plan since they were going to meet strangers in a strange place. The armed friend had his carry permit, owned a gun, and carried concealed. Good for both of them. I do wonder if they thought something felt off when they were told the vehicle was around the corner… that would seem suspicious to me. When in doubt, trust your gut.
The defender recognized that they were being robbed, and that they faced a lethal threat even before the bad guys started shooting. He shot back and the good guys ran away.
The victims called for help and gave statements to the police.
Rob- There is a lot of information that isn’t covered in the news.
Andee- Plan to meet where there are lights, cameras and witnesses. Ideally, meeting at a police station parking lot during the day might be the best plan. Don’t go alone. Ask a friend or two to go with you and if one or more of you are armed that would be great. Listen to your gut.
Put some distance between you and your partner so you form two separate targets. Keep something like a car between you and the strangers.
Do not bring cash.
Ask one of your friends to record a picture or video of the people you’re meeting and their car’s license plate.
Ideally, I want both of you to be armed.
Rob- This is beyond marksmanship. We want to move, present our firearm without pointing it at our partner, and then shoot multiple moving targets. We want to have done that enough times that it is a habit rather than a deliberate, step by step thought. How do I learn to do that?
Andee- You can learn that through practice at home with an unloaded firearm and taking more advanced classes that teach shooting on the move.
Rob- Where are we headed next?
Andee- Our third story happened in Grafton, Virginia.
What did our defender do correctly?
(Bullet points by Roger T.)
The defender went with his friend when he was meeting with a stranger(s) to look at a car. The defender brought his carry license and his gun with him.
The defender and friend were in an immediate, lethal and unavoidable situation when they were surrounded by armed robbers.
The defender exchanged fire with the attackers and ran. Fortunately, he managed to shoot one of them without getting himself or his friend shot. Hopefully, the defender knew how to move and engage multiple targets.
The defender stayed at the scene and gave police a statement.
What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)?
(Bullet points by Roger T.)
Meeting a stranger to buy or sell items can be very dangerous so the proper precautions need to be taken.
Arrange to meet where there are lights, cameras and witnesses. Ideally, meeting at a police station parking lot during the day might be your best bet.
Don’t go alone. Ask a friend or two to go with you and if one or more of you are armed that would be great.
Don’t stand together so you make yourselves more difficult targets. Keep some objects, like a car, between you and the stranger.
DON’T BRING CASH!
Ask one of your friends to record a video of the people you’re meeting and their car’s license plate.
This story took place in Peoria, Illinois. That state does not recognize any other state’s carry permit and they don’t have out-of-state concealed carry licenses. They also have a FOID card requirement which is a “Firearm Owners Identification” card which means it’s illegal for an out-of-stater to even possess a firearm in that state. According to the news report, the defender in this story was from out of state so he was not carrying legally. He may or may not be charged with possession and carrying a concealed weapon which in some states is a felony. KNOW THE LAWS WHERE YOU LIVE AND WHERE YOU TRAVEL.
Rob- First this message from the FASTER saves lives.
You’re behind the counter at a gas station/ convenience store. It is about 9 AM and the morning rush is over. Another customer walks in and pushes his way behind the counter. He says this is a robbery. You let him have the money. Now the robber pushes you toward the back bathroom.
You’re armed. You present your concealed firearm and shoot your attacker twice. Your first shot hits him in the leg and your second shot hits him in the abdomen. He stops pushing you and you stop shooting.
You step away and call 911 for help. You talk to the dispatcher and ask for police and Emergency Medical Services. You stay on the line, but have to put your phone down when you put your gun away. You give a statement to the police when they arrive. EMS takes your attacker to the hospital for treatment. You have to close the store for the rest of the day as the police collect evidence at the scene.
When your attacker is released from the hospital, he is held without bond in the county jail. He is charged with robbery, abduction by force, possession of stolen property, and also charged with grand larceny from an earlier incident.
You are not charged with a crime.
Andee- Our defender recognized that he was all alone in a store that is frequently targeted by robbers. He planned ahead by purchasing and carrying a gun on his body at work. The defender let the robber take the money out of the register. He used “Tactical Patience” and waited his turn before acting. The defender held his fire until the robber tried to force him into the back bathroom. Robbers move us to a new location because they don’t want to be seen. That is our signal that the fight is on. Never allow yourself to be forced to a new location, the chances of survival drop down as soon as you do.
The news report said that the police were unable to find a weapon at the scene. Even if the robber did not have a weapon and only pretended to hold a gun in his pocket, the act of forced relocation is kidnapping which usually allows for the use of deadly force.
The defender stopped shooting after getting two hits on the bad guy, and the robber stopped pushing him to the back of the store.
Our defender stepped away from the robber. Distance and cover are your friends.
The defender stayed at the scene, called 911 and stayed on the line, put the gun away and gave a statement to the police.
Rob- What else do you see in this story?
Andee- This is called close quarters defense where the bad guy is close enough to grab us or grab our gun. It also explains why the bad guy was shot in the leg and the stomach. We have to push the bad guy away so we have room to reach our gun, but that also means our support hand can get between our gun and the bad guy. That takes practice so we don’t shoot ourselves. I give classes in close quarters defense, and that usually comes a few classes after your concealed carry permit.
Once the robber was on the floor and no longer a threat, the defender should have moved all the customers away from the windows and locked the doors so the robber’s friends couldn’t get into the store.
I want you to know how to stop the bleeding if your or a customer were injured. Your business needs a first aid kit. And in that kit should be a tourniquet.
There are generally two types of criminals. The Resource Predators want your stuff like money, cars, jewelry, or credit cards. They want to grab your stuff and run. Process Predators enjoy inflicting pain and humiliation. They want to make you vulnerable and hurt you. The problem is that you can’t tell which is which.
Finally, there should have been security video in the store. Employees need to know how to save and transfer those video files to the police and to your lawyer. If you’re going to carry a gun at work then you need a lawyer to call so he fills out your police report for you.
Rob- Do you talk about that in your use of force classes?
Andee- Yes, it’s very important. Buying and training with a gun is only part of concealed carry. The other part is knowing how to keep yourself safe morally, financially and legally.
Rob- Where are we going for our last story?
Andee- Our fourth story took place Near Austin, Texas.
What did our defender do correctly?
(Bullet points by Roger T.)
The defender worked at a very dangerous job. He planned ahead by purchasing and carrying a gun on his body at work. If the gun was placed under the counter the defender may not have been able to get to it in time or the robber may have taken the gun first.
The defender let the robber take the money out of the register. He used “Tactical Patience” and waited his turn before acting.
The defender held his fire until the robber tried to force him into the back bathroom. The news report said that the police were unable to find a weapon at the scene. Even if the robber did not have a weapon and only pretended to hold a gun in his pocket, the act of forced relocation is probably kidnapping which usually allows for the use of deadly force.
The defender stopped shooting after two hits and the robber stopped pushing him to the back.
The defender stepped away from the robber. Distance and cover are your friends.
The defender stayed at the scene, called 911 and stayed on the line, put the gun away and gave a statement to the police.
What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)?
(Bullet points by Roger T.)
The defender complied with the robber until the robber tried to force him into the back room. The odds of surviving a forced relocation are very low. The only reason a criminal relocates you is so he can do something to you that he can’t do where you are. THIS SHOULD BE YOUR LINE IN THE SAND!
Once the robber was on the floor and no longer a threat, the defender should have moved all customers away from the windows and locked the doors so the robber’s friends couldn’t get in.
Did the defender know how to stop the bleeding if a customer or himself had been injured or shot? Did the store have a first aid kit?
Did the defender know how to hold the robber at gunpoint without putting himself in further danger?
Did the store have security cameras? Sometimes they can act as a deterrent as well as record the incident.
Criminals come in two types: Resource Predators and Process Predators. The Resource Predators want your stuff like money, cars, jewelry. Process Predators enjoy inflicting pain and humiliation. The problem is that you can’t tell which is which from just looking at them. Sometimes it’s too late when you finally figure it out.
You’re in your front yard pulling weeds in the middle of the morning. A stray pitbull runs up to you. You don’t know the dog and he doesn’t have any tags. You retreat to your garage and the dog follows you. You try to shoo the dog out of your garage with a broom, but that doesn’t work. You grab a hatchet, and use the blunt side of the hatchet to frighten the dog. He moves toward you and you retreat into your home through the garage door.
The stray pitbull pushes past you to enter your home. He bites your dog and then drags your dog to your bedroom. You grab your gun from the nightstand and shoot the pitbull twice at the base of his skull. Now he lets go of your dog.
You call 911 and your veterinarian. After the police arrive, you take your dog to the vet’s office. He was at the office for three days before you got him back.
Andee- I like that the defender climbed the ladder of force. She tried to push the attacking dog away twice. Each time the defender increased the amount of force she used until she had to use lethal force.
Most states allow the use of deadly force against a dog that is attacking other animals or humans. Again, we have to know the laws in our state.
The defender was able to shoot the attacking dog twice without hitting her own dog, and that can be hard to do. It is another version of close quarters contact where you might have to grab your attacker so you move with them as you shoot.
The defender called 911 so the police could find the pitbull’s owner.
Rob- We generally want to call 911 any time we had to touch our gun in anger. It is better to call and find out they are not interested than to have someone else call.
What else do you see?
Andee- Our defender didn’t have her gun when she was out in public. That is a problem if her dog was attacked or if she was attacked in her front yard. Carry on your body so your defensive tools are with you when you need them.
Maybe she should have been carrying pepper spray too. It’s a great tool and since it’s non-lethal, you don’t have to wait until last minute to have it ready.
As trivial as this sounds, I want you to call your lawyer even if the attacker is a dog.
What did our defender do correctly?
(Bullet points by Roger T.)
The defender tried to push the attacking dog away twice without success.
Each time the defender increased the amount of force she used until she had to use lethal force.
Most states allow the use of deadly force against a dog that is attacking other animals or humans.
The defender was able to shoot the attacking dog twice without hitting her own dog.
The defender called 911 so the police could find the attacking dog’s owner.
What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)?
(Bullet points by Roger T.)
On the body carrying is the quickest way to access your firearm. Anyone, anywhere and anytime you can be attacked by four-legged, two-legged or even no-legged (snakes) predators.
The defender was very fortunate that the dog did not attack her in her yard since she wasn’t carrying her gun with her. The outcome may have been quite different.
A gun is not always the legal or the most appropriate self-defense tool. According to the FBI, you are five times more likely to need a non-lethal weapon as opposed to a firearm. KNOW THE USE OF DEADLY FORCE LAWS.
Exit-
Rob- That wraps up this episode. Andee, thank you for helping us again. Where can we learn more about you?
Rob- After you look at Andee articles and classes, then please leave us a message on the podcast episode webpage.
Andee- We share this podcast with you for free. Please share the podcast with a friend and give us a rating on I-Tunes and Listen Notes. We’re also available on Amazon, Tunein, Spotify, Podbean and iHeart Radio.
Rob- This show is part of the Self-defense radio network. Find more pro-freedom podcasts at sdrn.us
I’m Rob Morse. We’ll be back next week with more Self-Defense Gun Stories.
~_~_
Apple categories- news commentary, self-improvement
Episode 337 with David Cole
Jan 10, 2024
Introduction-
Rob- Welcome to episode 337 of Self-Defense Gun Stories. We’re glad you found us if you’re well trained.. and if you’re still learning about armed defense. I’m Rob Morse and we’re joined this week by firearms instructor David Cole. What has been keeping you so busy?
David- Hi, Rob. I’ve been doing a little hunting (not enough), testing out my new chronograph of the range, and a bit of dry fire practice.
How about you?
Rob- I’ve been dry practicing. I also want to thank Roger for his help this week. We received some messages from people who will write for us, so that was my Christmas present.
David- Please go to the iTunes store where you subscribe to podcasts and tell new gun owners why you listen.
Here in the US, we defend ourselves with a firearm thousands of times a day. We look at a few recent examples to see what we can learn. The links back to the original news articles are on our podcast webpage.
Our first story took place last week in Denver, Colorado.
You and your girlfriend are taking your kids to the museum. It is the middle of the weekday afternoon when you park your car and start to unload your kids. You see two young men run toward you. They are armed and have guns in their hands. One of them hits you in the back of the head. You’re armed as well. You present your firearm and shoot at your attackers. They run. They also shoot at you as they run across the parking lot. You stop shooting and check on your family. No one is wounded. You call 911 and ask for help. You stay at the scene. You and your girlfriend give statements to the police. You describe your attackers, their clothing, and their get-away car.
Police arrest your attacker when he is dropped off at the hospital. Unfortunately, the officers don’t stop the car that drops him off. Your attacker is charged with four counts of attempted first-degree murder, two counts of felony menacing, and attempted aggravated robbery.
David- I’m glad that our defender recognized that we all face risks when we’re out in public. It sounds like he put together a plan that included carrying a firearm when he was out with his family. He recognized a threat. He defended himself. He stopped shooting when the bad guys stopped shooting. He checked on his family. They stayed at the scene and called for help. They couple met the police officers with empty hands. They both gave statements to the police.
Rob- That is a lot to get right. What else do you see that wasn’t mentioned in the news reports?
David- A plan begins with your family. What can they contribute? Have you walked through the plan with them and taken their ideas? Have you sought out first aid training? How about firearms safety training? Do all the adults have their carry permits? Have they trained together? Have they taken an armed defense class together, and a legal use of lethal force class together?
I bring up those issues because going to the store and buying a gun is the easy part. You can buy a gun in a half hour. Becoming skilled in its use as a tool of armed defense takes some effort.
I want the couple to pay attention so they have an opportunity to avoid an attack. I’m glad that the robbers missed, but I want the defender to be better at hitting his target and stopping the threat. This was probably a busy area given the location and time of day, so the risk of hitting innocent bystanders would be high. All shots hit something! Rule 4 applies in gunfights as well as the range.
The parking lot is a transition area where you’re changing your activities. Work as a team so that one of you is looking around as the other is getting a child ready for the museum. Once your partner is ready, then they become the lookout as you work on your side of the car.
If you see a threat and shout stop, then the kids have to know to get down and your partner has to know to draw their gun and get behind cover. Most criminals will turn and run rather than walk into a gunfight.
Rob- I noticed that both bad guys were armed and had their guns out.
David- I saw that too. While it is essential to carry at least one spare magazine or speed loader, having an armed partner who knows how to work with you can be a great force multiplier.
Rob- I noticed that the bad guys were shooting at the family as the bad guys ran away. That means the defender might shoot the bad guy in the back as he runs.
David- That could happen. The important point is that you know the law and can articulate why innocent people were at an immediate risk and that shooting the fleeing robber was the safest thing to do. Both of you need that knowledge so that you are both acting consistently and within the law.
More to the point, you want a lawyer available to advise you before you give a formal statement to the police.
Rob- Is there more you want to cover in this story, or should we go on?
David- It’s a good start. Our second story happened in Reeds Spring, Missouri.
What did our defender do correctly?
(Bullet points by Roger T.)
The defender wanted to protect his family so he chose to carry a gun when he took his family to a museum. In some states, carrying a gun in a museum or even in the parking lot of a museum is a crime since that area is considered a “sensitive place.” Know the laws in your area. If you can’t carry your gun with you, should you take your family there? Do a risk assessment.
The defender held his fire until he was struck. Perhaps he should have fired sooner like when he first saw the two men running at him with guns in their hands. Watch the hands- they’re what kills. Know the laws about the Use of Deadly Force. You don’t have to wait to be shot or stabbed in order to defend yourself or others.
The defender shot at the fleeing bad guys who were shooting at him as they fled. As long as the fleeing bad guys were presenting a threat he is allowed to keep shooting. When the threat stops, the shooting stops.
The defender stayed at the scene, checked on his family and gave descriptions and a statement to the police.
What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)?
(Bullet points by Roger T.)
The attackers got close enough to the defender in order to hit him in the head. Could the defender have drawn his gun as he moved to cover? Did the defender know how to shoot from a retention position?
Did the defender know to move away from his family while he engaged in a gunfight? The bad guys are going to shoot at the guy with the gun and if the unarmed family members are near the defender they may get shot.
How many rounds of ammo did the defender have? The news article stated that the attackers had extended magazines which are illegal in Colorado. They were ready and willing to get into a gunfight. Was the defender sufficiently prepared? Colorado limits the ammo capacity to 15 rounds per magazine but it doesn’t limit carrying additional mags or a back-up gun. Attackers are like wolves- they come in packs.
You and your family are at home on a Saturday evening. It is about 10:30 when you hear someone outside. Your wife calls 911 and asks for help. You go out on your front porch to see if someone needs help. A stranger crawls through the woods and shouts at you. You tell him that help is on the way and to stay away. The stranger rushes you and grabs you. You present your firearm and shoot your attacker. He lets go of you so you stop shooting.
You and your wife give statements to the police when they arrive. The 911 recording includes your shouts for the attacker to stop and move away. A toxicology report shows that the attacker was on methamphetamine at the time of the attack. Several of his prior criminal convictions involve drug use. You are not charged with a crime.
David- I like that the couple worked as a team. They paid attention to an unusual situation and got law enforcement on the way immediately. The male homeowner grabbed a gun for self defense. He stayed on his porch rather than go exploring in the woods in the middle of the night.
The defender also gave clear verbal commands as he tried to de-escalate the situation. The defender stopped the attacker from taking his gun. He stopped shooting when the attacker moved away. The defenders stayed at the scene. The defender put his gun away and met the officers with empty hands. They also gave preliminary statements to the officers.
Rob- Why was it so important that the defender said something before he was attacked?
David- Verbal commands can accomplish several things. They can potentially de-escalate a situation or discourage an attacker. They keep us breathing during a stressful event. And they can contribute to our self defense justification by creating witnesses and evidence which aid our case. We have a 911 recording where the defender says he has help on the way and to not come any closer. Your lawyer is going to point out that If the attacker had taken that advice, then the situation would never have escalated to a violent encounter.
Rob- What do you see as best practice for us if we hear something outside at night?
David- You want a plan so you and your family know what to do and are not making life and death decisions when you’re half asleep. Plan to have the doors and windows locked. I honestly would have preferred that the family had stayed inside the house and called the police. Turn on the outside lights. Plan for both of you to be armed. Make the bad guys break their way into your house. You might be out the cost of a door, but you’re going to save tens of thousands of dollars in legal bills, not to mention possibly avoid having to take a life.
You also want a lawyer to call so they get your defense started.
Rob- I need a lawyer even though a druggie attacked me?
David- Yes you do. We’ve all seen cases of self defense where, even if there’s no criminal charges, the family pursues a civil case against the defender. His ex wife might now see you as a way to pay her bills for the next ten years.
Rob- Where are we going for our next story?
David- Our third story happened in Pittsburg, Pennsylvania.
What did our defender do correctly?
(Bullet points by Roger T.)
The defender and his wife recognized a potentially dangerous situation.
The defender grabbed his gun while his wife called 911.
The defender shouted to the stranger that help was on their way while the phone was recording the 911 call.
The defender stopped shooting as soon as the threat was over.
The defender gave a brief statement to the police.
What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)?
(Bullet points by Roger T.)
It was 10:30 at night. Did the defender turn on any exterior flood lights or use a flashlight? Many times just the use of bright lights can stop an attack.
Why did the defender leave the relative safety of his home? Distance and cover are your best friends. Don’t give strangers the opportunity to attack.
Did the defender know how to shoot from a retention position?
Always make the attacker come to you. This is both tactically and legally sound.
Call 911 as soon as you can and leave the phone line open so they can record what’s going on. The 911 dispatcher is not a cop and you don’t have to do what the dispatcher says. Their job is to gain information and relay it to the responders for THEIR SAFETY, not yours. The 911 dispatchers aren’t on the scene. You are your own first responder until professional help arrives. That means that you have to know how to put out a fire, stop a wound from bleeding and defend yourself from attackers. The more you learn, the better your chances of survival.
Being attacked is a traumatic event and in this case the attacker died from his wounds. The defender is not only going to need a good lawyer but probably also a good therapist. The aftermath of a shooting event can last for years.
You are home alone on a Monday night. You hear your ex-boyfriend at the back door of the apartment. Fortunately, your doors and windows are locked. You arm yourself and shout for him to go away. He kicks down your back door and then your front door as he is looking for you. You stay inside the apartment and shoot him when he comes inside. You stop shooting when he runs. You stay inside and wait. After a minute, you call 911 and ask for the police. You put your gun away and give a statement to the officers when they arrive.
Police arrest your attacker at the hospital. He is treated for a gunshot wound to the abdomen. He is also arrested for an outstanding warrant. You are not charged with a crime.
David- I like that our defender chose to own a firearm for self-defense. She recognized that her ex boyfriend put her at an increased risk of violent attack. I love that she locked her doors and windows. That forced her boyfriend to break into her home. I looked at the area on Google Street View, and it is full of small homes and duplexes, so it probably created a number of ear witnesses who heard him break down your doors. I like that she stayed inside her home. She shot her attacker rather than let him get close to her, and she stayed inside as her attacker ran away. She called for help. She put her gun away when the police arrived, and she gave the police a statement.
Rob- Are there other things you want your students to do if they have a domestic abuse situation?
David- Let’s add some motion lights on our front and back door. Let’s add some security cameras and an alarm system. Let’s also get a restraining order so it is clear that your ex was supposed to stay away from you. The process will vary from state to state, but in Pennsylvania it appears to be as simple as going to the county courthouse, completing a petition, and possibly speaking to a judge. If you can afford an attorney to advise you, that makes it even easier, and most police officers can also advise you on how the process works.
Rob- What should a defender do if an ex breaks down her door?
David- In most cases, the best practice would be to seek another location in your home where you can barricade yourself while waiting for police. I’d like a defender to have all the lights in the house on if possible, and to issue verbal commands. Let them know you’re armed and that police are on the way. If you have 911 on the line, everything is recorded and this will be evidence that you did everything possible to avoid confrontation. If that confrontation comes, try to be positioned behind as much cover as possible and shoot to stop the threat.
Rob- In the earlier story you said it was an advantage that we shouted for the bad guy to go away. Wouldn’t it be better to stay quiet and try to avoid being found?
David- That’s a valid point, and it may be. You can certainly make that case, and I wouldn’t say you are wrong. I tend to lean towards being clear and vocal, but the situation may call for silence and hiding. I think it is very much a judgment call by the defender, considering the layout of their home and the nature of the attack. I’d just consider how likely it is that hiding will enable us to avoid the attack altogether. For example, if the house is small, it may be unrealistic to expect to be able to hide for long. A larger or more complex floor plan might make hiding a better option. But if attack is likely unavoidable, barricading with verbal commands may be better.
Rob- Where are we going for our last story? David- Our fourth story took place in Akron, Ohio.
What did our defender do correctly?
(Bullet points by Roger T.)
The defender recognized that her ex-boyfriend was “hunting” her after he broke down her front and back doors.
She armed herself and shouted for him to leave. Then she hid.
The defender shot the ex-boyfriend before she let him get close to her.
The defender stopped shooting when the attacker ran away.
The defender called 911 and gave a statement to the police.
What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)?
(Bullet points by Roger T.)
The defender had prepared for her ex-boyfriend’s attack.
The defender had purchased a gun and locked the doors and windows.
The defender should have obtained a restraining order as well. It won’t stop an attack but it lays the legal foundation for a self-defense claim.
The defender should have called 911 as soon as the first door was broken down. The sooner you call for help the sooner it arrives. Also, the 911 call records what’s going on. This provides evidence of your self-defense claim.
The defender wisely hid and made the ex-boyfriend come to her.
The defender shot the attacker before he was able to get close enough to take her gun from her.
You’re working behind the counter at a fastfood restaurant. It is late Monday night when another pair of customers comes inside. One of the customers draws a gun and demands the money from the cash register. It isn’t clear from the news story which employee handed over the money. After he received the cash, the robber started shooting. You’re armed. You present your handgun and shoot back. Your attackers run. You stop shooting when they are gone. You stay inside the store. It isn’t clear who checks on the other employees and who calls 911. You put your gun away when the police arrive.
You and the other employees give statements to the officers. You also show them your identification.
Police identify the two robbers when they arrive at the hospital. One is treated for a gunshot wound to the upper body. Both are arrested for armed robbery.
David- Note that the bad guys started shooting after they got the money. I’m glad the defender was armed at work. He recognized an immediate, lethal, and unavoidable threat to innocent victims. He waited his turn and then used his legally carried firearm to stop the threats. He did not chase the bad guys down the street but stayed inside the store. He also put his firearm away before the police arrived.
Rob- The news story doesn’t explain what happened. What should we do?
David- You and your co-workers need a safety plan. You want everyone who is not at the cash register to get to a secure position at the back of the store. You want a panic button so the police know you’re being robbed. You want to be behind cover and to protect your colleagues from the attacker. If possible, you don’t want to draw your firearm while the bad guys can see you. You want to put several shots on each attacker, starting with the closest and immediate threat first.
Rob- That is only the beginning of the story.
David- Check on your co-workers and customers. Get them to safety. Turn off the lights in the front of the store and lock the doors. See if anyone needs to be treated for cuts from flying glass. Ask all of them to call 911 so the police have a record of who was in the store.
All of that goes a lot smoother if you practice it with your co-workers ahead of time.
Rob- When would your students learn about a safety plan at work?
David- Beyond concealed carry.
Rob- Cover and concealment.
What did our defender do correctly?
(Bullet points by Roger T.)
The defender recognized that working in a fast food place can be dangerous. Any place with a cash register is a potential target.
The defender had a gun with him at work when the attackers opened fire after they got the money. He was able to shoot back and probably saved lives.
The defender “waited his turn” and fired back at the attackers.
The defender stopped shooting after the attackers ran off.
The defender did not pursue the attackers.
The defender gave a statement to the police.
What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)?
(Bullet points by Roger T.)
The more employees that are armed, the safer it is for all of them- especially if they have a plan.
Every employee needs to know what to do if someone attempts a robbery: move to cover, call 911, turn off the lights, lock the doors, check to see if anyone is bleeding.
Exit-
Rob- That wraps up this episode. David, thank you for helping us again. Where can we learn more about you?
David- Look for my articles at deltabravocharlie.com My latest article is about changes in the NRA management, and another article about a chronograph that works every time.
Rob- After you look at Dave articles and his videos, then please leave us a message on the podcast episode webpage.
David- We share this podcast with you for free. Please share the podcast with a friend and give us a rating on I-Tunes and Listen Notes. We’re also available on Amazon, Google Podcasts, Tunein, Spotify, Podbean and iHeart Radio.
Rob- This show is part of the Self-defense radio network. Find more pro-freedom podcasts at sdrn.us
I’m Rob Morse. We’ll be back in a few weeks with more Self-Defense Gun Stories.
~_~_
Episode 336 with Heather Reeves
Dec 29, 2023
Introduction-
Rob- Welcome to episode 336 of Self-Defense Gun Stories. We’re glad you found us if you’re well trained.. and if you’re still learning about armed defense. I’m Rob Morse and we’re joined this week by firearms instructor Heather Reeves. What has been keeping you so busy since we talked?
Heather Reeves
Heather- Hi, Rob. I’ve been enjoying the last few weeks of crazy holiday madness with family and friends, and learning new software to help edit my podcast, Everyday Carry Chicks.
How about you?
Rob- I’ve been shooting my new firearm that I got back from ATEi in Michigan. I’ve been listening to your podcast. While you were busy recording your podcast, our show received new ratings and comments on iTunes.
Chester said this was an amazing resource, and he likes that it is free.
Another listener said he learns how fast these events can happen and we help him develop plans for self-defense.
I also want to thank Roger for his help again this week.
Dwayne sent in a story. Thank you, Dwayne.
We also had some people ask about writing for the podcast, so that was my Christmass present.
Heather- Please go to the iTunes store where you subscribe to podcasts and tell new gun owners why you listen.
Here in the US, we defend ourselves with a firearm thousands of times a day. We look at a few recent examples to see what we can learn. The links back to the original news articles are on the episode webpage.
Our first story took place last week in Greenfield, Indiana.
It is very clear that this story was taken from a police report. We know the incident happened in a car, but we know neither whose car it was nor who was driving.
We know you were in a car with your ex-boyfriend. You have a restraining order out against him. That means it is a crime for him to deliberately come within several hundred feet of you.
It is about 1 in the morning. Your ex-boyfriend hits you. You tell him to stop. You present a firearm and shoot him when he doesn’t. Now he stops and runs away. You drive to a nearby business and ask for help. It isn’t clear if you had to drive in another car or if you were originally driving your own car. You call the police and stay at the business until they arrive. You give the officers a statement.
The officers find your attacker and arrest him. They apply emergency first aid until Emergency Medical Technicians arrive. EMTs take your attacker to the hospital for treatment of a gunshot wound to his arm. He is arrested upon release from the hospital and is now in jail without bond. He was recently arrested for a parole violation.
You are not charged with a crime.
Rob- Heather, what did our defender do correctly?
Heather- Abusers try to make their victims think that abuse is normal. Our defender thought that she faced an unusual risk from her ex. She got a restraining order. She bought a firearm and learned how to use it. Last year Indiana became a constitutional carry state, so she neither needed a carry permit nor did she have to wait for one.
She recognized that it was an immediate, lethal, and unavoidable threat when an adult man was punching her as she sat in her car. She defended herself until the threat ran away. She drove to a safe location and asked for help. She talked to the police. She took them back to the scene and showed them what happened to her.
Rob- This story leaves us with several questions. Who was driving and why or how did the defender let her attacker into her car.
Heather- We don’t know if the attacker kidnapped her. You want your firearm on your body so it is there when you need it. If you’re in a car, you don’t wait until you see a car crash about to happen to put your seatbelt on. Your gun should be treated the same way. If you want to be able to use it, you must have it on you. If you ever take out a restraining order and have to meet your abuser, then we want you to do so with lots of witnesses you brought with you. Preferably big armed men who also have pepper spray in their pocket.
Rob- Is there more you want to cover on this story, or should we go on?
Heather- Let’s go to Chicago, Illinois for our second story.
What did our defender do correctly?
(Bullet points by Roger T.)
The defender realized that her ex-boyfriend was a possible danger to her and she wisely took out a restraining order on him.
The defender also had a gun near her in the car when the ex-boyfriend assaulted her.
She realized that she was in an immediate, lethal and unavoidable situation and she shot the ex-boyfriend in order to stop the beating.
After the ex-boyfriend ran off, the defender drove away to gain some distance / safety, called 911 when she stopped and gave the police a statement.
What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)?
(Bullet points by Roger T.)
Did the defender originally let the ex-boyfriend in her car willingly or was she kidnapped? If she let the “ex” in her car willingly, she used very poor judgment and she put herself into a very dangerous position tactically. It’s not unusual for battered women to keep going back to their abusers even after they are repeatedly beaten and emotionally abused. The abusive boyfriends become masters of manipulation and they temporarily convince the women that they are sorry and that they won’t hit them again. The abusers can be very charming until the tensions and anxiety build up and they finally lash out again. It’s a vicious cycle.
If the ex-boyfriend had kidnapped her, the police would have charged him with that.
The restraining order probably was not violated if the woman allowed the ex-boyfriend to get near her.
The defender should have brought a friend or two with her when she and the ex-boyfriend met. Or they should have met in a very public place and driven there separately.
The defender should have had a non-lethal option with her as well as a gun.
It is late on a Saturday afternoon. You are approached by four teenagers as you walk down the street. They are armed and tell you to hand everything over. Your wallet has an Illinois Firearms Owners ID card inside. You have a gun on your hip. You present your firearm and shoot the armed attacker who is closest to you. The three other attackers run. You call 911 and stay at the scene.
You put your gun away before the police arrive. EMTs take your attacker to the hospital where he is pronounced dead from a gunshot wound to the chest. You show the police your identification and your carry permit. You are 68 years old. Your attacker was 19. You are not charged with a crime.
Heather- The 68 year old defender realized that he was a potential target of violent crime, especially in his neighborhood. He took the time, the money and he made the effort to get his carry license. That’s neither cheap nor easy in Chicago. The defender presented his gun and fired it when he was in an immediate, lethal and unavoidable situation where he was being robbed by four, armed teenagers. The defender stayed at the scene, called 911 and then gave a statement to the police.
Rob- Are there other things that weren’t mentioned in the news story?
Heather- There are a lot of things that weren’t mentioned in the story. In general, we want to avoid drawing our gun when another person already has their gun pointed at us, so we don’t know what the older man did to avoid getting shot.
We can wait for a distraction, create a distraction, or move as we draw. Ideally, we’d move to cover.
Rob- It seems this defender only shot once.
Heather- You want to shoot the closest attacker and then start on the next closest attacker. You can keep shooting until they are out of range or until you can retreat to cover. Then again, we don’t know what was behind the bad guys, so maybe our defender was saving lives by not shooting.
Rob- Does that mean I might have to shoot an unarmed attacker who has his back to me?
Heather- It might. The three of them could turn around and kill you, so you need to stay observant of the situation until they are so far away that you could stop them one at a time.
Rob- When do you tell your students about those sort of legal details in armed defense?
Heather- We start covering legal with our Concealed Handgun class, and never really stop. When it comes down to it, there is a legal component to every class we teach, because with each course, students get a bit more detail and are ready to hit the different high and low points of what the legalities of using force to defend your life are.
You also want a pre-paid legal plan so your lawyer covers the important points in your police statement. Your lawyer can decide if he wants to make a statement to the press. You don’t.
Rob- Where are we going for our next story?
Heather- We are headed to Fort Worth, Texas.
What did our defender do correctly?
(Bullet points by Roger T.)
The 68 year old defender realized that he was a potential target, especially where he lived. He took the time, the money and he made the effort to get his carry license. That’s neither cheap nor easy in Chicago.
The defender presented his gun and fired it when he was in an immediate, lethal and unavoidable situation where he was being robbed by four, armed teenagers.
The defender stayed at the scene, called 911 and gave a statement to the police.
What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)?
(Bullet points by Roger T.)
The story isn’t clear how the defender was able to draw and fire his gun before four, armed teenagers did. Did he use “tactical patience” or distractions? Did he fire from a retention position since he was probably very close to his robbers?
The defender only shot one of the armed teenagers. He’s very lucky that the other three, armed teenagers decided to flee rather than stay and shoot at him. Did the defender know how to engage multiple attackers?
The news report for this incident was extremely biased. It called the armed, teenage attacker a “victim” and the 68 year old defendant “the shooter”. Unfortunately in many parts of this country, the media tries self-defense cases online and in the papers long before they ever see a courtroom.
Rob- First this message from the Second Amendment Foundation.
It is just after noon when you hear someone try to open one of the windows in your house. You and your four daughters are at home. You grab your gun. You think there are several people outside your home and you shout for them to leave. You call 911 and ask for the police. The police arrive and you give them a statement. The officers take photographs and then leave.
A half hour later, you hear someone force the window open in your four year old daughter’s bedroom. The intruder starts to enter your home and you shoot him. Again you call 911 for help. Police find a man outside. He has a bullet wound to the chest. EMTs pronounce him dead at the scene. Again, you give the police a statement.
You are not charged with a crime, but you get an eviction notice from the property management company that manages the apartments. They say to call the corporate office. The corporate office says to contact the local managers. You have to find a new place for you and your family to live.
Heather- Our defender’s apartment was broken into a few months earlier when the family wasn’t at home. The defender recognized a threat and bought a firearm to defend her family. During the first attempted break-in that day, the defender successfully used verbal commands to stop multiple home intruders. Great job.
During the second attempted break-in that day, the defender shot the teenager who was forcing the window open. The armed mom again called 911 and again gave a statement to the police. Well done.
Rob- What else would you like us to do?
Heather- Texas is a Constitutional Carry state, so the defender didn’t need a Texas License to Carry. I want her to get one anyway because it shows the police that you have a clean criminal record. It identifies you as one of the good guys who carry a gun.
Texas is also a Castle Doctrine state so the defender is not required to retreat inside her home. Some states do not have Castle Doctrine so you have to know the laws in your state. Some states require that an intruder must be completely inside the four walls of the home in order to justify the use of deadly force. Take a class on the Use of Deadly Force in your state.
Also, our defender should consult a lawyer concerning keeping a gun in a subsidized rental property. There have been a number of lawsuits concerning this. You don’t give up your rights, particularly in Texas, if you get a rent subsidy.
Rob- Where are we going for our last story?
Heather- Our fourth story took place in Houston, Texas.
What did our defender do correctly?
(Bullet points by Roger T.)
The defender had multiple home break-ins and she decided to buy a gun.
During the first attempted break-in that day, the defender successfully used verbal commands to stop multiple home intruders.
During the second attempted break-in that day, the defender shot the teenager forcing the window open.
The defender called 911 and gave a statement to the police both times.
What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)?
(Bullet points by Roger T.)
Texas is a Castle Doctrine state. The defender is not required to retreat in states that have Castle Doctrine. Some states do not have Castle Doctrine.
Some states require that an intruder must be inside the four walls of the home in order to use deadly force. Some states do not require this. KNOW THE LAWS IN YOUR STATE. Take a class on the Use of Deadly Force or consult a lawyer.
The defender should consult a lawyer concerning keeping a gun in a subsidized rental property. There have been a number of lawsuits concerning this.
The defender gave an interview with local media- not a good idea. Did she consult her lawyer first? Probably not. Giving detailed statements and interviews to the media and even to the police is the job of a self-defense lawyer.
Rob- Fourth story- Are you armed at home? You hear someone knocking on your door. It is almost 8 in the morning on a Saturday. You are not expecting visitors. You go to the door armed. You hear a woman calling for you to open the door. You open the door and the strange woman attacks you. You step back and defend yourself. Finally, you present your firearm and shoot your attacker. Now she stops hitting you and you stop shooting.
You call 911 and ask for help. You put your gun away when the police arrive. EMTs take your attacker to the hospital. You give a statement to the police. You are not charged with a crime.
Heather- I like that the defender owned a firearm and had it nearby when they were at home. Ideally, it was on his body in a holster. I like that the defender’s windows and doors were locked. I like that he had the gun with him when he answered the door. He forced the criminal to climb the ladder of deterrence. Our defender tried to push her back outside. He tried to hit her after she hit him. Finally, he had to use his firearm to stop the attack.
The defender stopped shooting when the attacker stopped hitting him. He called 911, stayed at the scene, and gave the police a statement.
Rob- What else do you see here?
Heather- Most deliberate criminals are intoxicated when they commit a burglary or robbery. We don’t know if this attacker was a criminal or if she was drunk or drugged from the night before.
We know we don’t want to open the door. You can talk through a closed door without standing directly in front of the door. Criminals have been known to shoot through closed doors so we want to stand to the side with a phone in our hand and the gun in the holster.
I also want you to have an outside security camera or a doorbell camera. Bonus points if you have one that has a speaker in it for two way communication with the person at the door.
If someone claims to need help, then offer to call the police, call for a tow truck, call a friend, but don’t open the door and hand them your phone.
Be prepared to defend yourself if an attacker kicks down your door. Carry your gun at home and learn how to shoot from a retention position.
Reinforce the lock and hinges of your entrance door with longer screws that go into the wood framing, not just into the door jamb.
Again for bonus points, Install hurricane film on all glass windows within reach of the door lock.
What did our defender do correctly?
(Bullet points by Roger T.)
Fortunately, the defender was armed when they answered the door.
The defender was able to fight off the attacker and eventually shoot the attacker.
The defender stopped shooting when the attacker stopped hitting them.
The defender called 911 and gave the police a statement.
What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)?
(Bullet points by Roger T.)
DON’T OPEN THE DOOR!! Never open the door to anyone you don’t know or trust. Answer a call at your door from a window or talk through a closed door without standing directly in front of the door. Criminals have been known to shoot through closed doors so stand to the side.
The defender was inconsistent- they were cautious enough to have a gun with them when they answered the call but they opened the door anyway!
Install a security camera or a doorbell camera.
If someone claims to need help, offer to call the police, towtruck, friend, etc. for them. Don’t open the door and hand them your phone.
Be prepared to defend yourself if an attacker kicks down your door. Carry your gun at home and learn how to shoot from a retention position.
Reinforce the lock and hinges of your entrance door with longer screws that go into the wood framing, not just the door jamb.
Install hurricane film on all glass windows within reach of the door lock.
Keep your windows/doors locked and carry your handgun with you at home. If your gun is not within arm’s length it’s useless. A small handgun in your pocket is worth more than a dozen rifles upstairs in a closet.
Exit-
Rob- Heather, thank you for helping us again. Where can we learn more about you?
I list more classes at agirlandagun.org under the Portage, Michigan chapter.
Rob- After you look at Heather classes, then please leave her a message on the episode webpage.
Heather- We share this podcast with you for free. Please share the podcast with a friend and give us a rating on I-Tunes and Listen Notes. We’re also available on Amazon, Google Podcasts, Tunein, Spotify, Podbean and iHeart Radio.
Rob- This show is part of the Self-defense radio network. Find more pro-freedom podcasts at sdrn.us
I’m Rob Morse. Happy New Year, and we’ll be back next week with more Self-Defense Gun Stories.
Episode 355 with Robyn Sandoval
Nov 29, 2023
Introduction-
Rob- Welcome to episode 335 of Self-Defense Gun Stories. We’re glad you found us if you’re well trained.. and if you’re still learning about armed defense. I’m Rob Morse. We are joined this week by firearms instructor Robyn Sandoval, and she has been busy.
Robyn at the Range
Robyn- Hi, Rob. I just got back from an instructor development class with Brian Hill of The Complete Combatant, and I’m leaving tomorrow to take a low-light class with Chris Cerino at Range Ready Studios near your neck of the woods. Not only do I love learning, but I appreciate showing my students that even instructors and professionals in the firearms industry have to carve out time for our own training. How about you?
Rob- I’ve been dry practicing. I’m still waiting to get my gun back from the shop. They say they have a new barrel on the way. I’m working on the FBI handgun qualification test.
We didn’t receive any new ratings or comments on iTunes or Facebook. I do want to thank Roger for his help this week. We’re still looking for listeners who want to write or edit this podcast. I’m retiring soon, so this can be yours.
Robyn- Please go to the iTunes store where you subscribe to podcasts and tell new gun owners why you listen.
Here in the US, citizens defend themselves with a firearm thousands of times a day. In this episode, we’ll look at a few recent examples to see what we can learn. Listeners can find links back to the original news articles on the podcast webpage.
Our first story took place last week in Shady Cove, Oregon.
You are at home in bed. It is 2 in the morning when you hear someone break into your home. You arm yourself. Your attacker moves toward you and you shoot them. You stop shooting when they stop advancing. You step back and call 911.
You put your gun away when police arrive. The police call for a life-flight helicopter. EMTs declare your attacker dead at the scene.
You give a statement to the police. You show them how the intruder broke into your home. You identify your attacker and tell the police that you have a protective order against them.
You are not charged with a crime.
Robyn- Unfortunately this is a common scenario because that protective order is just a piece of paper. So let’s look at what else our defender did to protect herself. First, she recognized a problem and sought legal help. Getting the order of protection or restraining order was a good step because that gave her legal protection that the attacker would be breaking the law by contacting her or if he was even near her, for example, within 500 feet. But most importantly, she had a firearm and learned how to store it, access it, and use it if needed.
On the day of the attack, she had locked her doors. She reacted to the sound of a breakin. She armed herself. She defended herself when the attacker moved toward her. She stopped shooting when the attack stopped. She stayed at the scene and called for help. She put her gun away when the police arrived, and she gave them a brief statement.
Rob- Are there other things that weren’t mentioned in the news report that you’d like us to do if we have a stalker?
Robyn- There may have been other options that could have given her more time to wake up and respond. Maybe a doorbell cam, motion alarm, or barking dog could have given her a warning. Alarms are affordable and you can put a motion detector on your outside doors even if you are a renter. You could also even put a motion detector inside your home, as well as motion activated lights.
It’s also good for her to have a community of support. Hopefully she told her neighbors, friends, employer, pastor, and others that she had a stalker and had taken out a restraining order against him.
Of course, always keep your gun accessible to you and on-body in a holster whenever possible. Keep your doors and windows locked. When you’re in an interior room with a locking door, go ahead and lock it as well. Have the volume on your phone turned up so that you will hear it or be awakened by it when your security app discovers motion.
Most importantly, have a plan. Be able to arm yourself and move to a secure position in the room. Turn on the lights. Call 911. Shout that you are armed, and that you’ve called the police. Stop any attacker that comes through your bedroom door.
Because you’re at an increased risk, it is doubly important that you have a self-defense legal insurance plan. In this situation, it’s not just about surviving an attack in that moment; it’s surviving the legal process afterwards and ensuring that your future is safe as well.
So, make your legal plan part of your emergency action plan. Know what facts that you want to point out to officers. For example, that you shouted for the attacker to stop (so that your neighbors might be able to corroborate that they heard shouts before they heard shots, or that the alarm system may have recorded your shouts, or they may also be on the 911 call). Point out concise facts: this is the broken door where the attacker forced entry, this is the person against whom I have a restraining order, etc.
Rob- Why are those statements so important?
Robyn- The police are trying to figure out if there was a crime, and if so, then to collect evidence for a prosecution. You want to identify yourself, and give evidence that you are the defender rather than the attacker. The more obvious it is that you are the defender, then the more evidence the police will find to support your case.
That said, once you point out the evidence, then you remain silent until your attorney is with you.
Rob- There is a lot that we can learn here even if we don’t have a stalker. When do your students learn about defense in the home and about talking to the police?
Robyn- When someone begins contemplating a gun for home defense, whether it’s when they’re purchasing a new firearm or just making an emergency action plan, these are important factors that have to be considered from the beginning. Safe storage, accessibility, cover and concealment inside the home, deterring factors or barriers outside of the home, security features, lights, mirrors to view around corners… all of these things can be considered as part of the plan.
As for talking to the police, most of the time it’s important to learn what NOT to say as much as what to say. In that critical incident, a defender is going to be stirred with a lot of adrenaline and emotion. Training to stay mindful and focused throughout the entire process is critical.
Rob- We’ve said a lot. Are you ready to move on?
Robyn- Our second story was in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.
What did our defender do correctly?
(Bullet points by Roger T.)
The defender:
Locked her doors
Got a restraining order.
Bought a gun and learned how to use it.
Brought her gun when she investigated a noise.
Shot her attacker when she recognized an immediate, lethal and unavoidable threat.
Stopped shooting when the attack stopped. Did not chase the attacker.
Called 911, put her gun away so she met the police with empty hands.
She showed the broken door to the police and gave a statement.
What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)?
(Bullet points by Roger T.)
Best practices says that if a person is alone and they think they are in danger, they should retreat to a defensible room, lock and barricade the doors, turn on the lights, call 911 and prepare to defend from cover or concealment. Going out to investigate means you are walking into an unknown situation with an unknown number of attackers. You don’t know where they are and if they are armed (usually they are.) Clearing a house by yourself is very dangerous and tactically unsound.
The defender had a restraining order on this person. She should have told all of her friends and neighbors about it as a safeguard.
Motion-detection cameras with sound cost less than $100. They are good for interiors as well as exteriors. Some even connect to your smart phone.
Don’t forget to reinforce the home’s perimeter, doors and windows. Longer screws, larger striker plates and hurricane film on glass are cheap insurance policies that pay off bigtime.
You are at home in the evening. The news story doesn’t say if you have holiday guests with you, but your neighbors in the apartment complex are coming and going. It is about 7:30 when you hear a crashing sound. You grab your gun and go to investigate. You see an armed stranger standing in your apartment. You’re being robbed. He moves toward you. You shoot him until he stops advancing. You stop shooting. You back up and call 911 for help.
You open the apartment complex access door so the police can get inside. You put your gun away and set down the phone to talk to the officers. They police officers disarm your attacker. EMTs declare your attacker dead at the scene from gunshot wounds to the head. You give the police a statement. You show them your shattered front door. The officers check the video security files in the apartment complex. They assume your attacker snuck in behind another resident or behind a guest who was visiting for Thanksgiving.
The police take your firearm as evidence. You are not charged with a crime.
Robyn- Like our earlier story, our defender knew that she had a greater risk of a home invasion, so she was prepared. Philadelphia crime rates are very high, so she bought a gun and had it with her in her home, even on Thanksgiving. She locked her doors so she knew who was in her home. She responded to a strange sound rather than excusing the sound as a noise from the party next door.
She defended herself. She identified an armed, unavoidable threat, and she took action. Then stayed at the scene so the robber’s accomplice couldn’t change the evidence like grabbing the robber’s gun and running away with it. She got help on the way and she talked briefly with the officers when they arrived.
Rob- The story says that the defender shot the attacker in the head. Talk about that.
Robyn- Best practice is to aim for the largest target so we’re most likely to get the hits we need. On a human threat, that would be placing your sights at the heart/lungs area. However, your gun is going to be in your line of sight, which means you’re going to aim at what you’re looking at.
In force-on-force scenarios, students often put rounds into the attacker’s hands because they are focused on the gun or other weapon. If the attacker had his gun in front of his face, then the defender may have shot towards the attacker’s gun and made impact into the head. That might have been where her eyes went in a moment of stress. There are times, however, when aiming at a smaller target like the head might be a better option than the torso. It’s good to take training classes to learn different scenarios and how to manage them.
Rob- What would you tell your students to do as they clean up after Thanksgiving?
Robyn- Get used to wearing your firearm in a holster on your body, and keep it on you while you’re going about your day… even as you do Thanksgiving dishes or put up your holiday decorations. The holidays bring out a lot of emotion in people, and can be difficult for some, leading to drinking in excess or substance abuse. This can lead to increased crime, so be prepared.
Encourage your adult family members to also carry and be trained. Concealed carry should be a nonissue at your home, so that your guests know that you are armed, and that they can feel comfortable coming to your house while they are armed. Make sure you know the laws of your area so that you are in compliance as you move in and out of your home. If you need a carry permit to walk your guests out to their car, get one so that your lifestyle isn’t interrupted and you don’t have to take off your gun to do it.
As we’ve said, have an emergency action plan. Know where you can find cover, or retreat to a back room and lock the door. We don’t know the precise details of this attack. Maybe she was shooting from her kitchen and it was safer to use the kitchen doorway as concealment than to retreat to the bedroom. Move out of sight (concealment), and behind something bulletproof (cover), so you are hard to shoot.
Criminals can often get through security doors.
Rob- How many of your students have a spare gun to use the next day?
Robyn- If you use your firearm in an incident, it’s going to be seized into evidence by the police. Have another firearm to use for your concealed carry. Don’t become complacent and think that lightning can’t strike you twice. Always be ready to protect yourself and those you love.
Rob- Where are we headed next?
Robyn- Our third story happened in Granada Hills, California.
Rob- First this message from Doctors for Responsible Gun Ownership
DRGO
https://drgo.us/
What did our defender do correctly?
(Bullet points by Roger T.)
The defender:
Bought a gun and learned how to use it. Hopefully he had a plan.
Brought his gun when he investigated a noise.
Shot the intruder when he recognized an immediate, lethal and unavoidable threat.
Shot the intruder in the head. Was that intentional or by accident? Best practices says we aim for upper center chest unless the bad guy is wearing body armor. Then we shoot for the head.
Stopped shooting when the attack stopped. Did not chase the attacker.
Called 911, put his gun away so he met the police with empty hands.
He showed the broken door to the police and gave a statement.
What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)?
(Bullet points by Roger T.)
“Anyone. Anywhere. Anytime!” Criminals don’t take Thanksgiving off.
Best practices says that if a person is alone and they think they are in danger, they should retreat to a defensible room, lock and barricade the doors, turn on the lights, call 911 and prepare to defend from cover or concealment. Going out to investigate means you are walking into an unknown situation with an unknown number of attackers. You don’t know where they are and if they are armed (usually they are.) Clearing a house by yourself is very dangerous and tactically unsound.
Motion-detection cameras with sound cost less than $100. They are good for interiors as well as exteriors. Some even connect to your smart phone.
Don’t forget to reinforce the home’s perimeter, doors and windows. Longer screws, larger striker plates and hurricane film on glass are cheap insurance policies that pay off bigtime.
The police took the defender’s gun as evidence. This is a common practice. If there’s a trial, the defender may not see his gun again for months or even years. You need a back-up gun since the bad guy or his friends may come to visit you long before your gun is returned. And remember, many states require waiting periods or re-application of FOID cards before purchasing another gun. “Two is one and one is none.”
You’re at home. It is about 8pm and your security alarm says there was movement outside. You check the app on your phone and see three young men walking in your backyard. They are wearing hoodies, masks and gloves. You see them try to open your doors and windows. You try to call 911, but you can’t dial as you watch the intruders. You grab your gun. You see the intruders outside your back door. You move toward the door and shout at them. Then you open the door. Your attackers run when they hear the door open. You go outside and chase the robbers out of your yard.
You go back inside and call 911. You are transferred to a non-emergency number. The police pick up the line after 45 minutes. You ask to file a report. Police never come to your address to retrieve the video or take a report.
You look online and see a half dozen similar attacks to yours in the last month. The news calls them the Dinner Time Robberies.
Tag- No Shots Fired
Robyn- It’s good that our defender had the alarms, the app on his phone, and his firearm. I like our defender had a plan and a gun in his gun safe. I love that he had a security system and his doors and windows were locked. It was excellent that he paid attention when he heard the alarm. I’m glad he tried to call 911 for help. He shouted for the intruders to leave.
Rob- What else do you see here?
Robyn- I would first like for him to not open the door. Keep a barrier between you and an attacker at all times. However, there are several teachable moments here.
There are always things that you discover when you walk through your plan. Do you have your phone with you? It takes you time to open your app on your phone. What if you discover a problem and your gun safe is at the other end of the house? It takes time to open your gun safe. Do you have your gun on your hip? Can you watch your security system and does the security system have a panic button that calls 911 for you? What options do you have for connecting with 911 without losing visibility through your app?
Troubleshoot your plan so you don’t discover these things when there are three robbers at your back door.
Rob- What else could we do to stay safe in our home?
Robyn- I loved that the defender had over a dozen cameras outside. Let’s also turn on the outside lights. Let’s grab our gun and shout that we’ve called the police. Stay away from the windows where the bad guys can see you and shoot at you.
And again, don’t open the door! If they break in, then you are positioned to defend yourself. But don’t approach them, don’t chase them, don’t run across the street in your underwear with a gun in your hand. That is what aggressors do. Don’t act like a bad guy; be a responsible defender.
Rob- What else do you see here?
Robyn- After you are safe, then call your lawyer. Do not provide extra information to the police. Do not contact the media. Leave that to your legal team to address.
Rob- Where are we going for our last story?
Robyn- Our fourth story took place in Shelby, North Carolina.
What did our defender do correctly?
(Bullet points by Roger T.)
The defender:
Had a plan. He had a security system with multiple cameras/lights.
Paid attention when his security app notified him of movement.
Took his gun out of his safe and was prepared to use it.
Tried to call 911 but his security app locked him out. Even an old, unused cell phone can be used to call 911 so keep one charged at all times where you think you may need it.
Shouted at the intruders to leave.
Left a message with his police department about the incident.
What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)?
(Bullet points by Roger T.)
According to the news report, the defender opened his door and pursued the intruders with his gun. BAD IDEA! If he had used his gun, he would have been seen as the aggressor. And he also put himself in grave danger. He had no way of knowing how many other bad guys there were, where they were or if they were armed. He could have walked into an ambush.
The defender gave a video interview to the TV station. This is very dangerous. Did he check with his lawyer first? The news video included showing the defender leaving his house and running after the intruders while he was holding a gun. In many jurisdictions, this could be considered assault with a deadly weapon by the defender! He could be criminally charged for this.
The defender had multiple cameras but he didn’t use them correctly. He followed the bad guys around his house where they could have shot him through a window or door. If you can see them, they can also see you. He should have retreated to a defensible room, barricaded the door, turned on the lights, called 911 and covered the door from concealment or cover. If the intruders broke through his room’s door he would be able to defend himself from only one bad guy at a time as they came through the “fatal funnel” door. One defender can stop many intruders with this tactic.
The defender had a gun but he had to unlock a safe in order to get at it when he needed it. POGO- Pant On, Gun On.
You’re walking down the street. The sunset was about an hour ago so it is fairly dark. You see one man walk up to a man who is standing on the sidewalk. The first man pulls a gun from his pocket and shoots the man who was standing there. The victim puts up his arms and is shot in the face and in the shoulder as he turns.
You have your North Carolina concealed carry permit. You are armed. You shoot the attacker until he drops his firearm. You stop shooting when the attack stops. You call 911 and ask for help.
You stay at the scene. You reholster your firearm before the officers arrive. You give a brief statement to the officers. You show them your identification and your carry permit. EMTs take both of the wounded men to the hospital for treatment. The attacker was shot five times.
Later, the police reported that your attacker was the aggressor. Warrants have been issued for felony assault with a deadly weapon with intent to kill, inflicting serious injury, possession of a firearm by a convicted felon, and assault by pointing a gun.
Robyn- It’s good that the defender had her carry permit and she had her carry gun on even though she was simply walking down the street. She paid attention to the people around her as she walked. She recognized that the first man represented an immediate, lethal, and unavoidable threat to the person who didn’t start the fight.
She shot her attacker and it sounds like all of her shots were hits. That tells us that she trained and practiced fairly often. She recognized when to stop shooting. She called for help and had empty hands when the officers arrived.
Because she had her carry permit, the arriving officers knew that she had a clean criminal record. That made it much easier for the police to figure out who the bad guys were and who the good guys were.
Rob- We often tell people to use verbal commands. Is that appropriate in this case?
Robyn- What is moral to do, what is legal to do, and what are you willing to do? Maybe you’re willing to let a victim be shot to death until you’ve tried verbal commands. Maybe you identified the legal requirements to use lethal force and shoot your attacker from across the street. Maybe verbal commands would have put you at greater risk.
Everything happens in context. You are not required to say anything as long as there is a lethal threat against an innocent victim.
Rob- We don’t get to practice recognizing those situations very often. How can your students know what to do in public?
Robyn- You’re body can’t go where your mind hasn’t been before. You need to study armed defense. You need to imagine what you might see and consider what you might do. You can do that alone, with a training partner, or in a class.
You practice now so you won’t freeze or panic. It is better to practice when we have time.
Rob- What else do you see?
Robyn- Defense of a third party is always risky. You don’t know the full story. You don’t know what the victim will say to the police. You don’t even know if there are more parties out of your view.
The news doesn’t say if the defender moved to cover. That should be part of your training, to be able to move to safety and put barriers between you and any additional threat.
What did our defender do correctly?
(Bullet points by Roger T.)
The defender:
Had a carry permit and a gun with him when he was walking on the street after dark.
Paid attention when he heard two men arguing.
Recognized an immediate, lethal and unavoidable threat.
Shot the attacker five times (good accuracy) after he saw the attacker shoot the victim.
Stopped shooting after the attacker dropped his gun.
Stayed at the scene, called 911, holstered his gun and gave a statement to the police.
What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)?
(Bullet points by Roger T.)
Did the defender have a flashlight with him? Did he know how to use it properly? Always carry a gun, ammo, phone and a flashlight. Carrying a knife is also a good idea.
This is a third party defense which can be very risky. The defender shot the attacker assuming that he was a bad guy. He gambled his life, health, wealth and freedom on his ability to come to the correct conclusion without complete information. What if the attacker had been a plain-clothes cop making an arrest and the victim had made a furtive movement? Luckily for the defender, that wasn’t the case here.
Did the defender move to cover or concealment before shooting? The number one rule of self-defense is not to get shot. If you interrupt a criminal during the commission of a crime, they will probably shoot at you as well. Prepare for it.
Exit-
Rob- That wraps up this episode. Robyn, thank you for helping us again. Where can we learn more about you?
Robyn- Look for me at A Girl and a Gun dot org, and at and A Girl & A Gun on all of the social media pages. We have chapters all across the country.
Robyn- We share this podcast with you for free. Please share the podcast with a friend and give us a rating on I-Tunes and Listen Notes. We’re also available on Amazon, Google Podcasts, Tunein, Spotify, Podbean and iHeart Radio.
Rob- This show is part of the Self-defense radio network. Find more pro-freedom podcasts at sdrn.us
I’m Rob Morse. We’ll be back in a few weeks with more Self-Defense Gun Stories.
~_~_
Episode 334 with Andee Reardon
Nov 22, 2023
Introduction-
Rob- Welcome to episode 334 of Self-Defense Gun Stories. We’re glad you found us if you’re well trained.. and if you’re still learning about armed defense. I’m Rob Morse and we’re joined this week by firearms instructor Andee Reardon. A lot of things have happened in Maine since we’ve talked. Tell us about it.
Andee Reardon
Andee- Hey Rob! It’s been a while. I’ve been super busy with life and meeting the demand for training here in Maine after the active shooter situation in Lewiston. There’s a lot of people waking up to the fact that they are their own first responder and they want to be prepared to protect themselves. I had the honor to work with one of the women who survived the attack to teach her a handgun lesson and help her find the right firearm for her. She said she never wants to feel helpless again.
How about you?
Rob- I try and work out every day. I know you do too. Being fit lets us pay attention when we’re tired.
How do we fit a gun to a new gun owner? Is it like a shoe salesman? Is it like an optometrist, the gun on your left, or the gun on your right?
I’ve been dry practicing and I’m still waiting to get my gun from ATEI in Michigan. We didn’t have any new ratings or comments on iTunes. Again, I want to thank Roger for his help this week. We’re still looking for listeners who want to write or edit this podcast. All this can be yours.
Andee- Please go to the iTunes store where you subscribe to podcasts and tell new gun owners why you listen.
Here in the US, we defend ourselves with a firearm thousands of times a day. We look at a few recent news stories to see what we can learn. The links back to the original news articles are on our podcast webpage.
Our first story took place last week in Chicago, Illinois.
You are working in a liquor store. It is late on a weekday night and you’re about to close the store. Two men come inside. One of them draws a gun and demands the money in the cash register. You back away. One of the robbers hits you in the head with a bottle. You present your firearm and shoot at your attackers until they run. You stay inside and call 911 for help.
EMTs take you to the hospital in serious condition. Later, you give a statement to the police. It isn’t clear if you have security video. 8 liquor stores were robbed on the northside in the last month. Most stores are closing earlier.
You are not charged with a crime.
What did our defender do correctly?
(Bullet points by Roger T. Please do not make changes to these notes.)
The defender knew that he had a dangerous job. He probably also knew that other stores in his area had been robbed so he decided to have a gun at work.
The defender recognized an immediate, lethal and unavoidable situation.
The defender stayed in the fight even after he was injured. He presented his gun and shot at the attackers.
The defender stopped shooting when the attackers turned and ran out of the store. The defender did not chase the attackers. He called 911 for help.
What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)?
(Bullet points by Roger T. Please do not make changes to these notes.)
The defender went through the process of getting a FOID card, buying a gun and learned how to use it. Maybe he had a license to carry as well.
Hopefully, the defender had a plan since his job put him in danger on a daily basis. Did he visualize numerous possible scenarios in his mind in order to build his “Library of Responses”? That’s a critical step in inoculating himself to the effects of adrenaline and stopping the brain from freezing in a crisis. Creating a defensive plan in the middle of an attack is next to impossible.
Could the defender have used “Tactical Patience” or distractions to keep from getting into a hand-to-hand confrontation? Could he have thrown the money on the floor or knocked a bottle off the counter as a distraction?
Did the defender move as he drew his gun? The first rule of self-defense is not to get shot.
Did the defender know close quarters techniques including retention shooting?
Did the defender carry his gun on him or was the gun staged under the cash register? Why not both? Carry a small, highly concealable micro semi-automatic or revolver and also have a larger, double-stack pistol or short-barrel shotgun under the counter or in the back room. Multiple guns gives you many options. “Two is one, and one is none.”
Once the robbers left, the clerk should have: locked all doors, moved any customers to safety and turned off all the interior lights so the returning attackers or their friends wouldn’t have easy targets. The threat is not over until the cops arrive.
Make sure your hands are empty and visible when the police arrive. Holding a gun or a cell phone can get you shot.
Andee- The defender probably saw the news and knew that other stores in his area had been robbed. Before the attack, he got his firearms owners ID card so he could go buy a gun. The night that he was attacked, he recognized an immediate, lethal and unavoidable situation when the robbers presented a firearm and then hit him in the head with a bottle. If you doubt how serious that can be, then fill an empty wine bottle with water and go hit the side of a 2×4 with the side of the bottle. Look at the bruise on the wood and then figure out what that will do to your skull and to your brain.
The defender stayed in the fight even after he was hit in the head. I teach my students, when it comes to life or death, quitting means game over. You fight and stay in it until you are safe.
He presented his gun and shot at his attackers. He then stopped shooting when the attackers turned and ran out of the store. (This is a very important piece if you want to be seen as the good guy in the eyes of the law. You MUST stop shooting the moment the threat has ceased.)
Rather than chase the bad guys, he stayed inside and called 911 for help. (You’re not superman or a police officer, it’s not your job to catch the bad guy.)
Rob- Are there other things you want us to do that were not mentioned in the news reports?
Andee- It is hard to get your carry permit in Chicago. It’s worth the trouble. I want him to have his carry permit so he can carry all the time, even when he carries trash out to the dumpster late at night.
I want you to have a plan. It is like having a cheat sheet of options. Part of having a plan is also establishing limits that say what you’ll do and when you’ll do it. When will I yell stop when two customers come in looking like robbers? When will I present my gun and where will I move? What will I say? You have to walk through that plan often enough that your reactions are a habit rather than a thought. Situational training doesn’t have to always take place at the range. Walking through a scenario in your head creates neural pathways in your brain, allowing you to react quicker if you’re presented with a similar scenario in real life.
Rob- Isn’t walking through your place of work the best simulator we could ask for?
Andee- I can be, particularly if you have a co-worker who works through the scenario with you.
Another thing I think of reading this story is “be careful about letting people into your danger zone” One of the attackers was close enough to hit the defender with a bottle. We should be very careful as to who we let in our bubble. I often show my students in class how fast someone can get to you from 25 feet away, about the same time it takes someone skilled to draw their firearm. Situational awareness should be warning us whenever someone is within that distance. We should be prepared to “move off the line” if the threat makes a charge. Could the defender have dropped the money tray and a bottle on the floor and backed away? That gives him a moment as the armed attackers are distracted.
If you have to present your firearm, then I want you to move as you do. Don’t just stand in the open. Find cover.
I want you to have close quarters practice so you can shoot without moving your firearm to full extension. That is accurate enough at short distances, and you don’t hand your gun to your attackers. You should practice hand-to-hand self defense techniques that will give you space to safely draw without your attacker taking your gun from you.
I also want you to practice shooting from different positions. Learn to shoot while you’re crouched behind your sales counter. Can you make your counter bulletproof by covering the outside face with brick or stone?
We also have to talk about the elephant in the room. Was the defender armed, or was the gun under the counter? I want you armed so you are protected. If you want to put a larger firearm under the counter that is fine too. You can also cache some non-lethal options like pepper spray are a great addition to your self defense tool box.
Once the robbers left, the clerk still had some work to do. I want you to lock all doors. Move the customers to the back of the store and turn off all the interior lights so the returning attackers or their friends don’t have easy targets.
Make sure your hands are completely empty when you unlock the door to let the police inside. And then make sure you and your witnesses know what to say, and what not to say.
Rob- That is a lot to remember.
Andee- It is, but you don’t learn it all at once. You are learning reactions rather than thoughts, and once the bad guys leave then you have a moment to think about what to do next. Even then, you’re choosing from a menu you’ve already rehearsed.
Rob- We’re at home, at work, at school or out in public. It seems that we need a separate plan for each one.
Andee- Yes and no. Most of the parts are the same or similar. What might change is our decision points. We’re more alarmed to a stranger walking into our home than we are to a stranger walking into a retail store.
Rob- We’ve said a lot. Are you ready to go on?
Andee- Our second story happened in Los Angeles, California.
You just drove home and closed the gate behind you. It is 7:30 in the evening and you walk up to your front door. Two men run up behind you. One of them pokes you in the back with his gun. You are carrying a soft drink cup in your hand. You throw your soft drink into the robber’s face and you step aside. You draw your firearm and shoot at your attackers. They run. The narrow walkway leading to your front door gives you no place to hide.
You don’t chase your attackers down the street. You go inside and ask your wife to call 911. You also check on your daughter. Both of them are unhurt.
You put your gun away. You give a statement to the police. You show them your carry permit and the home security video of the attack. They see your attackers jump over your front wall after you parked your car.
You are not charged with a crime.
What did our defender do correctly?
(Bullet points by Roger T. Please do not make changes to these notes.)
The defender had a license to carry and he had his gun on him when he was attacked.
When he realized that he was in an immediate, lethal and unavoidable situation he used throwing his drink at the attackers as a distraction. He also stepped aside. These actions broke the attacker’s OODA loop and gave the defender time to draw his gun.
The defender did not chase the attackers. He went inside and had his wife call 911 while he checked on his family.
The defender showed the police his home security video. Whenever possible, give the police a copy of your video and not the original. Video evidence gets damaged and misplaced so you need the original as a back-up.
What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)?
(Bullet points by Roger T. Please do not make changes to these notes.)
According to the news report, the defender was using earbuds when he was attacked. This reduced his situational awareness to only what he could see in front of him and gave the attackers the opportunity to put a gun to his back without being detected.
When did the defender pull the trigger? Before or after the attackers turned and ran off? Did the attackers shoot back at the defender as they were running away? These are critical questions that need to be answered in order to determine if the defender’s shooting at the attackers was legally justified.
Did the defender consult a lawyer before talking to the police? He should have.
According to the news report, the defender made multiple statements to the media. This can determine whether you go to trial or not. Best practices says that you only give detailed statements to the police or the media through your lawyer. Whatever you say to the police or the media can be used against you.
Andee- It isn’t directly mentioned in the story, but it implies that the defender’s front door was locked. That kept the attackers from simply pushing their way inside. The defender had a license to carry and he had his gun on him when he was attacked. I don’t like that he was distracted by earbuds, criminals are looking for targets who are unaware and earbuds put a big red target on your head. Don’t do that. Also, don’t go to condition white (unaware) as soon as you get home, you’re not home safe until you’re inside and safe.
The defender recognized an attack and threw his drink at the attackers as a distraction. He also stepped aside. Those actions broke the attacker’s plans and gave the defender time and space to draw his gun and shoot.
The defender did not chase the attackers. He went inside and had his wife call 911. He checked on his family and holstered his gun.
The defender showed the police his home security video. Whenever possible, give the police a copy of your video and not the original. Video evidence gets damaged and misplaced so you need the original as a back-up for your lawyer.
Rob- What else would you like us to do?
Andee- The defender was startled and waited to shoot. We have several drills where we turn, present, and shoot. Like I said before, we need new habits.
The defender talked to the news reporters and I want you not to do that. Talk to your lawyer and let your lawyer decide if he wants to talk to reporters.
This defender has a long legal road ahead of him, we wish him the best and are happy he survived.
Rob- Where are we headed next?
Andee- Our third story happened in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.
You work for your dad at a small pizza restaurant. It is Saturday night and it is dark outside. The evening rush has slowed down but there is still a lot to do. Two men come in and you get ready to take their order. Most people want their order To-Go. These two are wearing hoodies and masks. They are also wearing rubber surgical gloves. One of them draws a gun from his pants and shoots into the ceiling. The armed man moves behind the counter and pushes you out of the way to get to the cash register. You have no place to run.
You draw your legally concealed firearm and shoot your attacker until he drops his gun. Now the attacker falls down. The other attacker runs from the store and you don’t shoot him.
The news story doesn’t explain how you get out from behind the counter, but you stay at the scene and call 911. You put your gun away. You give a statement to the police. You identify other witnesses. They agree that the robber shot first.
Your attacker died at the scene with several shots to the upper chest and head. Police are looking for security video from other stores in the area. You are not charged, but the police take both your gun and the attacker’s gun as evidence.
What did our defender do correctly?
(Bullet points by Roger T. Please do not make changes to these notes.)
Pizza shops get robbed a lot. Fortunately, the defender was armed when he was robbed. POGO (Pants On… Gun On.)
It sounds like the defender got out of the robber’s way and waited until the robber’s attention was on the money before drawing his gun. Then he shot the robber in the upper chest and the head. The goal is to neutralize the threat.
The defender was trapped behind the counter and could not move out of the way so he shot the robber until he dropped his gun and also collapsed. Sometimes this only takes one shot. Other times it might take many shots. You shoot until the threat is over.
The defender did not shoot at the other robber who was running away.
The defender did not pursue the second robber.
The defender stayed at the scene, called 911, put his gun away, gave a statement to the police and pointed out witnesses.
What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)?
(Bullet points by Roger T. Please do not make changes to these notes.)
Most pizza shops and stores have more than one employee working at any one time. They should all be armed and have a plan. Two defenders working as a team are six times more effective than a single one.
The defender had his gun on him, not under the counter. Carrying your gun means it’s always available when you need it. If you store your gun under the counter, maybe you can get to it and maybe you can’t.
The defender did not try to use verbal commands. There is a time and a place for verbal commands but this situation wasn’t one of them. Once the bad guy’s gun is in his hand, the defender has to shoot first and move if possible.
The defender should have moved any customers to safety, locked all doors and moved away from lights and windows in case the other robber returned or if they had friends outside.
Hopefully, the defender has a back-up gun because he may not see his gun for months or even years. When the police take a gun for evidence in a trial, it doesn’t get returned until the trial is over. The criminal attackers will be out on bail long before the defender’s gun is returned so the defender may be defenseless. “Two is one and one is none.”
Andee- Shops that are open to the public late at night are at increased risk of robbery. This defender recognized the risks of running a family shop in Philadelphia and decided to go armed. He had his firearm on his person when the attackers entered the store.
We haven’t seen the video, but the defender could have been waiting his turn. The robber already had a gun in his hands. He shot into the ceiling so that everyone knew he was armed. The defender was trapped behind the counter by the robbers. It sounds like he waited until the robber was looking at the cash register. That is when he drew his gun and started firing. It is good that he didn’t try verbal commands.
Our defender kept firing until the threat was gone. That could be one shot or the entire magazine. The defender did not shoot the other attacker who was running away.
The defender stayed at the shop and called 911 for help.
Rob-Are there other things you want your small business owners to do?
Andee- I’d like all of your employees to be armed. I’d like you to have a video system that shows your attackers and your defense.
Like the previous story, I want you to move your customers to safety, lock all your doors and move everyone away from lights and windows.
I also hope you have another gun you can bring to work tomorrow.
Rob- I have a problem with some new gun owners. How do you convince gun owners that run a business that their gun isn’t magic?
Andee- I try to convey how important training is. Like driving a stick shift, it’s going to take a while to operate it smoothly, in different environments and in different scenarios. Guns are the same. It’s an acquired and perishable skill. You must practice and train to keep it up.
I don’t know it all and I love being a student when I get the chance. I think everyone should take a training course every so often, regardless of your skill. You can always learn something new.
Rob- Where are we going for our last story? Andee- Our fourth story took place in Houston, Texas.
You are part of the security team at church. A member of the church called the police and also called the church saying that someone had threatened the pastor that day. Another church member told you the suspect was outside in the parking lot. You grab a rifle and go outside to investigate. You see the suspect. You shout for him to stop. He runs at you with something in his hand. You shoot him twice until he stops. You stop shooting. You call 911 and ask for help.
You put your gun down when officers arrive. Officers find a vape in the attacker’s hand, but no weapon. You give a statement to the officers. So do the other members of the security team. The officers collect statements from the attacker’s family and acquaintances that confirm the threats against the pastor and the church.
Your attacker was the son of a church member. He was arrested yesterday for stabbing a sword through a trailer. Police found psychotropic drugs in the attacker’s truck.
You are not charged with a crime.
What did our defender do correctly?
(Bullet points by Roger T. Please do not make changes to these notes.)
The defender was part of a church security team that worked well together to point out a possible threat.
The defender encountered the suspect and tried using verbal commands but they failed.
The suspect charged the defender who shot the suspect twice.
The defender stopped shooting when the threat was over. He called 911.
He put his gun down and gave a statement to the police.
What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)?
(Bullet points by Roger T. Please do not make changes to these notes.)
Did the defender carry non-lethal weapons? Could he have stopped the attacker with pepper spray or by hitting him with the rifle butt?
Was the suspect charging at the defender an immediate, lethal and unavoidable threat? Could the defender articulate his reasons for using deadly force? Was disparity of force involved?
Any threats the suspect made to others prior to the time he was shot do not justify use of deadly force by the defender.
Did the defender misinterpret the vape device in the suspect’s hand as a weapon? Maybe the defender could have taken cover behind a car and waited to find out if the suspect had a weapon or not. Did the vape device look like a gun or a knife?
How far away was the suspect when the defender shot him? Did the defender know about the Tueller drill?
Could the defender have brought other members of the security team with him when he went to investigate?
Andee- Way before that Sunday, the church thought that they might have a problem someday and they put a team in place. The security team had a way to collect information from the public and the police. The defender tried to use verbal commands when he saw the suspect. I don’t know if any other church members were outside, but I would have preferred everyone to lock themselves in the church and call the police. That may not have been feasible.
The defender did not let the suspect get within hand-to hand range. He stopped shooting when the threat stopped advancing.
The defender called 911 for help and put his gun down when the police arrived. He also gave a brief statement to the police.
Rob- What else do you see here?
Andee- If you have self-defense insurance, ask them if you are covered if you’re part of a church security team. If you don’t have it, time to consider it.
You have to explain why you had to close the distance to the suspect in the parking lot. You have to explain why he was an immediate, lethal and unavoidable threat to innocent people. Not what you feared might happen later, but the threats you saw in that moment. That is a tough call and you absolutely must walk through those situations before they happen or you will freeze.
There is no doubt that the attacker meant ill will and was disturbed. Was he a lethal threat to any particular individual before you pulled the trigger? This could be the difference between going home and going to jail.
Rob- You phrased it differently, but those are the same requirements that I need to show if I use a firearm at home.
Andee- They are, but you know the people you expect to see in your home. Shopkeepers and church staff expect to see strangers every day, often strangers with problems. They have to show even more restraint.
It’s very important that your church security team knows more than just how to use a firearm… they should be training in emergency 1st aid and how to deescalate situations with verbal judo. They should also have a lockdown plan in place so if something is happening outside, they can stay safe until police arrive.
What a lot of people don’t know is, a majority of church shootings are not hate crimes or religion driven, they are domestic crimes. Family members attack other family members, ex husbands mad at a church that helped his ex wife leave, stuff like that. Churches should have a safety ministry for these people who are in danger and a safety plan should their stalker show up at church.
Many women are afraid to tell their pastor what’s going on at home, so having a safety and security ministry trained to help them and being open about these issues will not only be a great asset to the community, but it helps keep the other members of the church safe too.
Something I learned training with Col Grossman, a lot of church shootings happen in the parking lot. Security teams who only prepare for emergencies indoors are only half prepared.
Exit-
Rob- That wraps up this episode. Andee Reardon, thank you for helping us again. Where can we learn more about you?
Rob- After you look at Andee articles, then please leave us a message on the podcast episode webpage.
Andee- We share this podcast with you for free. Please share the podcast with a friend and give us a rating on I-Tunes and Listen Notes. We’re also available on Amazon, Google Podcasts, Tunein, Spotify, Podbean and iHeart Radio.
Rob- This show is part of the Self-defense radio network. Find more pro-freedom podcasts at sdrn.us
I’m Rob Morse. Happy Thanksgiving, and we’ll be back next week with more Self-Defense Gun Stories.
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