Psychedelics Today

Latest Episodes:

Alicia Danforth PhD - ICPR 2020: Ethical Challenges in Psychedelic Medicine Mar 03, 2020

Show notes

In this episode, Joe interviews Clinical Psychologist, Alicia Danforth. In the show, they cover topics including how to get involved in the space, consent, research, MDMA, Autism and more.

3 Key Points:

Alicia Danforth is a Clinical Psychologist who will be having a talk on Ethical Challenges in Psychedelic Medicine at the ICPR Conference in the Netherlands, April 2020.
There is a possibility for MDMA to have a non-responder effect. No one has done research dedicated to why some people don't react at all to MDMA.
Psychedelic science is very hard to talk about. We have the language of science that studies the psychopharmacological effects of drugs but no language that holds the effects of an altered state of consciousness yet.

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Show Notes About Alicia

Her path to her current place is such a random road that led her to where she is
She was going to burning man and getting into harm reduction when she realized the untapped value of psychedelics, its where her interest began
She began volunteering, doing administrative work for a doctor
- She was offered to be a study coordinator
She got introduced to the power of psilocybin as a medicine, for dying cancer patients
- The patients had a prognosis from 6 months to a year
- To see how this state of consciousness helped people transition to the end of life so smoothly, that is what inspired her
5 months after she started working on the study, she got a cancer diagnosis

Getting Involved in the Space

Alicia would always get people approaching her about how to get in the field and she tells them "what field?"
Her Power Point making skills, are what technically got her involved in this field
"You never know what skill may be needed in this field" - Alicia
Alicia encourages people to look into their own collection of skills, and dig deep into that, find your niche, and then use that to contribute to the movement
- Clinical therapists and psychologists are not the only people in this field We need accountants, marketers, etc

Consent

People start to get really religious around this field
Joe mentions a story where someone performed non-consensual reiki

Current Research

She is currently looking at why psychedelics appeal to people who typically like to abuse power
She did a talk at burning man about 'coming down from the psychedelic power trip'
She tries to cite as many references and research as possible
Her talk at ICPR is going to be the very professional, version of that talk
Why are individuals who seek to abuse these tools so irresistibly drawn to psychedelics?
"If someone gets abused, and people say don't come out about it because it's not good for the movement, then what kind of movement is that?" - Joe

Empathogens

MDMA is known as an Empathogen
Can empathogens help people who are not empathetic, become empathetic?
Cohen's D is the measure of effect size
- Big pharma uses this all the time, to determine the effects of one drug compared to another
- The Cohen's D is how large that difference is

Non-response MDMA

There is a known, non-responder effect with MDMA
There was a few double-blind sessions, where the patient received MDMA, and they didn't react, their vitals didn't change
- At the end, it was revealed that they truly received MDMA, and then even to be sure, they would do a blood test, and it showed up in the blood
No one has done research dedicated to why some people don't react at all to MDMA
It's probably common, that for people who are relying on MDMA to work as their last resort option and try it and not feel anything at all, to end their life afterward

Media and Support

It's the most difficult thing in dealing with the media
- When you are entirely dependent on funding, if you don't talk about what you're doing, then you can't get funding at all
There is a crisis in science on the replicability on these studies
- Joe says its cool to have these studies replicated outside of the US
"Psychedelic science is very hard to talk about due to the subjective nature of the psychedelic experience. We have the language of science that studies the psychopharmacological effects of drugs. There is no language that holds the effects of an altered state of consciousness yet." - Alicia
The rapport that the patient and facilitator have, and the effect of that relationship, is a variable

Links

Website

About Alicia Danforth

Alicia received her doctorate in clinical psychology from the Institute of Transpersonal Psychology in Palo Alto in 2013. Since 2006, she has worked in clinical research at the Los Angeles Biomedical Research Institute at the Harbor-UCLA Medical Center on clinical studies for adults with anxiety related to advanced-stage cancer and with autistic adults who experience social anxiety. She is currently a lead clinician and supervisor for a clinical trial at UCSF for psychological distress in long-term survivors of HIV/AIDS. She is also certified in Trauma-Focused CBT and Focusing-Oriented Psychotherapy.

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Mike Margolies - Psychedelic Seminars: the Benefits, Risks, and Complexities of Psychedelics Feb 25, 2020

Show notes

In this episode, Kyle and Joe interview Mike Margolies of Psychedelic Seminars. In the show, they cover topics including guests and conversations from the Psychedelic Seminars, the decriminalization of all drugs, and the importance of allowing psychedelic use to be a part of training therapists for psychedelic therapy.

3 Key Points:

Psychedelic Seminars is an educational conversation series deepening awareness of the benefits, risks, and complexities of psychedelics.
There are large topics of decriminalizing psilocybin or the movements for 'decriminalize nature', but the conversation on decriminalization of all drugs is rare, which is what's really important.
Some companies (MAPS for example) allow the option to use MDMA as a part of their therapist training program while other companies who are training therapists for psilocybin therapy, don't have the option to use it. This leaves the question, "Should the psychedelic experience be part of the psychedelic therapy training?"

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Show Notes About Mike

Mike used to work as a chemical engineer in corporate America, and then he did Ayahuasca
- When he returned, he thought to himself about what he wanted to do with the rest of his life
- He took a look at the pulse of the country and looked at what it needed
- There wasn't anyone organized locally in Baltimore, so he started Psychedelic Seminars
Now he is living in the Bay Area, doing events locally
He has been interviewing people and putting the videos out globally

Psychedelic Seminars

They will be having some Indigenous people at the seminar
- It's hard to get Indigenous people to seminars and conferences, because, what's in it for them?
The goal is to ramp up the project and do a seminar every month, where it usually takes place every few months
- They are doing it all in a home, privately
- The whole project is donation dependent, they are doing it all for free
- You can support the mission here
After Michael Pollan, they did one with Jim Fadiman
He did another with Ayelet Waldman
- The talks were on microdosing and the unknowns of microdosing
- Just because there is no real harms taking a large dose of LSD, doesn't mean there aren't any harms taking a low (micro) dose of LSD frequently
- Mike thinks that the term Jim Fadiman uses is its 'sub-perceptual', in that you have a noticeable effect on the mood, but no other way of noticing it

Decriminalization

Drug Policy tends to stay in the realm of psychedelics only
- There are large topics of decriminalizing psilocybin or the movements for 'decriminalize nature', but no one likes to talk about the decriminalization of all drugs, which is what's really important
- Poppy is not considered in decriminalize nature, which is selective nature decriminalization
It's not a real decriminalization, it's just a low priority for law enforcement
He's been asking in his conversations, opinions on decriminalizing all drugs
Different drugs have different risk profiles
"Just because you're not using criminal justice as your mechanism for reducing risks of drugs, doesn't mean you do nothing. The last thing we want to do is add criminalization to those who are already suffering, this is why we should decriminalize all drugs" - Mike
Laws should be written in terms of what are you not allowed to do, not what you're allowed to do
- He is allowed to walk down the sidewalk, but not punch someone he walks past, but the law shouldn't be to get a license for walking down the street so long as you don't punch someone
The communities that are marginalized continue to be marginalized by the drug war

Psychedelic Therapy and Experience with Use

With MAPS, there is an option to do MDMA as a part of the training
With psilocybin, at least with Compass Pathways, there is not an option to use psilocybin. Mike says that's a huge issue
When you scale treatment, there is the risk of losing the quality of care
- "We aren't going to solve the problems of our future by mass distributing psychedelics" - Mike
The fact that we have such mass amounts of widespread depression, means that we have a deeply ingrained systemic issue at hand
- Psychedelics treat the symptoms, but we still need to fix the underlying cause
- "If you are distributing psychedelics, but still exacerbating the same underlying issues, you now have the problem and solution in the same hefty package" - Mike
"Psychedelic experience is intrinsically something spiritual. How can you guide someone in spiritual practice if you haven't experienced it yourself?" - Mike
"Inducing a state intentionally, and guiding someone through a process, its completely unethical to guide someone through a spiritual process that you haven't been through yourself." - Mike

New Economy

Burning man is not a barter economy, it's a gift economy, where things are given without an expectation of receiving something in return
- We are far from that economy
What if we had a world where instead of trying to extract value, we were trying to create value?

Links

Psychedelic Seminars Website

Psychedelic Seminars Patreon

About Mike Margolies

Since 2015, Mark has worked full-time in the psychedelic community, starting and contributing to a number of projects as an event and media producer, connector, and advisor. He is the Founder of Psychedelic Seminars, an educational conversation series deepening awareness of the benefits, risks, and complexities of psychedelics. On the PsychSems stage, he has interviewed a range of leaders including bestselling author Michael Pollan, Dr. James Fadiman and Ayelet Waldman on microdosing, and therapeutic ketamine expert Dr. Raquel Bennett. He started the project in 2015 after returning to his home city of Baltimore to build community for open and honest conversations about psychedelics. The project now operates primarily out of the San Francisco Bay Area and livestreams globally. Through his psychedelic community work in Baltimore, he seeded the Baltimore Psychedelic Society. He has sparked and mentored similar Psychedelic Societies around the world from Washington DC to San Francisco to Portugal. He helped start the Global Psychedelic Network to connect them.

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Elizabeth Nielson and Ingmar Gorman - The Importance of Psychedelic Integration Training for Therapists Feb 18, 2020

Show notes

In this Episode, Kyle sits down with Elizabeth Nielson and Ingmar Gorman, Co-founders of Fluence, Training in Psychedelic Integration. They are both therapists on the MAPS clinical trial for MDMA Assisted Psychotherapy for PTSD.

3 Key Points:

Elizabeth and Ingmar are co-founders of Fluence, an online Psychedelic Integration Training program.
If psychedelic treatments become available more widely, the fear is that therapists won't be as educated on how to handle their patient interactions based on the behavior of each psychedelic. Psychedelic Integration Therapy Training is so important.
There are 3 phases to the MDMA for PTSD clinical trial. Phase 1 would be pre-clinical data about the chemistry of a drug, Phase 2 is where you begin to test your treatment in a patient population, and Phase 3 is where you get the data to demonstrate that the treatment is superior to a placebo and other treatments in general.

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Show Notes About Ingmar

Ingmar is a previous guest of the show
He is a private Investigator for the MAPS MDMA trial
He is a therapist and the Co-founder of Fluence

About Elizabeth

Elizabeth is a Clinical Psychologist
She has a long history in working with clinical trials as a therapist
She is part of the psychedelic education and continuing care program
She does a lot of supervision and training for therapists

The Trial

The approval of expanded access by the FDA includes 50 people in total
They are near the end of MAP 1 (out of MAP 1 and MAP 2)
- When they transition into MAP 2, it will be a little more refined
- MAP 2 is different participants than MAP 1
There are 3 phases
- Phase 1 would be pre-clinical data about chemistry of a drug and how it metabolises, if its poisonous, etc
- Phase 2 is where you begin to test your treatment in a patient population
- Phase 3 is where you get the data to demonstrate that the treatment is superior to a placebo and other treatments in general
- They are done as a double-blind trial, both the therapist and patient don't know if the patient is receiving the treatment or now

Take-aways

There is a lot of information that has to be shared effectively
The therapists are very much in the lives of the participants on top of just the MDMA
Instead of learning from the trials of what to do on a practical level, its about inspiring them to bring this as an actual treatment for people
The multiple ways that PTSD can manifest and look like, and the may ways that MDMA can look like when administered, have some commonalities
- The deepening, the broadening, the way they communicate, can all be the same
Ingmar holds the belief in the inner healing intelligence of all people
- One of the first things he does when he begins with a new patient, he says that this is something he really believes in, and his role as a therapist to help them in their own healing process and mechanism
What Elizabeth wanted to learn, know and practice while she was going through school, isn't what she she thought it was until she found it
- She says this work really requires them to trust people's minds and experiences
- There is something that they tell their patients, "Don't get ahead of the medicine" - Elizabeth
There is an interesting paradox between not knowing and following intuition, to having an actual method and following that
- There is a sweet spot between following a script to following your intuition as a therapist
- You want to trust that inner healer process of the patient, but also need to know when to intervene (usually from a safety standpoint)

Fluence

3 days after Horizons, Elizabeth was at home with a cold, and talked to Ingmar that morning curious for a name for the project
Fluence means, magical or mystical power or source of power
- It can also refer to the density of particles of energy
They teach about harm reduction and integration with their patients in their practice
- They aren't teaching protocols in the workshops, they just think the harm reduction is important
The last part of integration is mindfulness
Ingmar's biggest influence are his clients and patients, he is so inspired by them
- A large piece of the motivation for creating Fluence is from patients just looking for someone to talk about their experience with

The Why

A mother whose teenage daughter with depression, reached out to Ingmar with trouble trying to treat her depression
- The family decided it would be a good idea to use Ketamine therapy, which was successful
- She was doing so well, so well that she then went to a therapist to integrate it
- The therapist that she went to then instead of responding positively, decided to fire the teen for further therapy, and report the parents to child care services for providing ketamine therapy
- Ingmar says their position is not that everyone needs psychedelic integration therapy, its specifically for those that don't feel supported by family or community, and it gives them a professional service as an option
"Psychedelics are not 10 years of change in one night, they are 10 years of insight in one night. integration is so important." - Elizabeth
The goal is to support people in making a change that feels safe and right for them
If the treatments become available more widely, the fear is that therapists won't be as educated on how to handle their patient interactions based on the behavior of each psychedelic
- Mental health practitioners can be a great source for working through those experiences

Menla Training

Menla Training
They could really take their time with the process and training
The trainings that they had gone to has made their own Fluence courses better
In 2019 they had 5 of the trainings for clinicians, and the trainings will be better and better as they go

Ketamine Infusion Therapy

The experience is not dose dependent
The purpose of the workshop is to educate both therapists and doctors about what can happen in psychotherapy

Links

Fluence

Psychedelics 101 and 102 Workshop at ICPR 2020

About Elizabeth

Dr. Elizabeth Nielson is a co-founder of Fluence and a psychologist with a focus on developing psychedelic medicines as empirically supported treatments for PTSD, substance use problems, and mood disorders. Dr. Nielson is a therapist on FDA approved clinical trials of psilocybin-assisted treatment of alcohol use disorder, MDMA-assisted treatment PTSD, and psilocybin-assisted treatment of treatment resistant depression. Through Fluence, she provides continuing education and training programs for therapists who wish to engage in integration of psychedelic experiences in clinical settings. Her program of research includes qualitative and mixed-methods projects designed to further understand the phenomenology and mechanisms of change in psychedelic-assisted therapy, including the experiences of trial participants and of the therapists themselves. Having completed an NIH postdoctoral fellowship at NYU, she has published and presented on topics of psychedelic therapist training, therapists' personal experience with psychedelics, and including psychedelic integration in group and individual psychotherapy.

About Ingmar

Dr. Ingmar Gorman is a co-founder of Fluence and a psychologist who specializes in assisting populations who have a relationship with psychedelics. He is the site co-principal investigator and therapist on a Phase 3 clinical trial studying MDMA-assisted psychotherapy for post-traumatic stress disorder. Dr. Gorman is a board member of Horizons Media, Inc., a not for-profit educational charity and organizer of the Horizons Conference: Perspectives on Psychedelics. After completing his NIH postdoctoral fellowship at New York University, Dr. Gorman stepped down as director of the Psychedelic Education and Continuing Care Program to focus his efforts on Fluence and the training of future therapists.

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Jon S. - NYU's Double-Blind Trial of Psilocybin-Assisted Treatment of Alcohol Dependence Feb 11, 2020

Show notes

In this episode, Joe interviews Jon S. on his experience in the psilocybin-assisted trials for alcohol dependency at NYU. In the show, they dive into Jon's background and how psilocybin assisted therapy helped him out of his alcohol dependence and into a new life.

3 Key Points:

Jon participated in the NYU Double-Blind Trial of Psilocybin-Assisted Treatment of Alcohol Dependence.
The study was double-blind. In each session, he didn't know if he was going to receive psilocybin or Benadryl.
The sessions helped him so much with this dependence on alcohol, he believes he is a better father, husband, and human overall. He hasn't had a drink in 5 months (or a desire to).

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Show Notes About Jon

He is based in New York
Jon is the father of 2 kids
He spent a lot of his life DJing, so he has spent a lot of time around alcohol
He found out about a psychedelic therapy study at NYU from someone at a Holotropic Breathwork Retreat
- The study took place in New York City
He had always wanted to explore the psychedelic side of things
- He read Michael Pollan's book and it said in the book that the Holotropic Breathwork community would be a great group to help find a guide

The Trial

In his assessment, he found out truly how much he was drinking
- He would crack a beer before even playing with his kids
- He was into craft beer and at 8% a beer, his 3 beers were more like 5
He was asked to not have his sessions recorded so he could be as open as he could be
The session was very focused on curbing drinking
His wife knew he was going down the path of psychedelic healing
- "I'm not doing this to have a good time, I'm doing this to be a better person" - Jon
His trial was double-blind
- He was never told when he was receiving the psilocybin at each session
- He was told that he was either going to get 1 or 3 doses in the trial

The First Session

The first session with the eye shades on (on psilocybin), was very visual
In that first session he kept seeing this pirate ship underwater
- His sons would say "come on daddy, lets play on the pirate ship"
- He would go to the pirate ship with his sons and then say "I need to go back down and do some work", and he would swim back into the depths
He came home that day, and his youngest son greeted him at the door, and said let's play power rangers, I'll be the red power ranger and you be the pirate
It hit him in a float tank session, the message of that session was to play with his sons more
He had a moment in his first session of rebirth

Integration

There is a 2 hour integration session the very next day
- He didn't think it was going to be as important as it turned out to be
He had the choice to keep it at the same dose or up it
- He upped the dose to 40mg instead of 25mg
He was told his second session wouldn't be anything like his first
The medicine was so intense the second time, he couldn't even remember the music
In his second session, he saw a body being chopped up (realizing it was his body)
- He realized that he was one with the universe, love is the only thing that matters
- He wanted to be a part of everything
He was compensated about $100 per session
- "When the university gives you financial compensation, you buy everyone in the ice cream shop ice cream" - Jon
Jon says he has a new baseline for anxiety
- He never thought he had anxiety, but after his sessions, he found that he is way less anxious than he was, even though he really wasn't
He didn't have a desire to drink, he hasn't had a drink in 5 months
He has never felt better or happier
He's a much better dad, and husband

Life After the Experience

He is re-reading Aldous Huxley and is finding a whole new meaning to it all
He is spending more time with his family and being present with the
- He spends a ton of time with his kids now
Stuff that used to worry him, doesn't worry him anymore
His experience was everything he hoped for and more
He genuinely believes, that whatever he got out of a session, is what he needed

Final Thoughts

He is talking to the Decrim Nature in NY
He appreciates the platform (Psychedelics Today) for the space to talk about his experience
He appreciates everyone at NYU for the work they are doing

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Joost Breeksema - The Interdisciplinary Conference on Psychedelic Research Feb 04, 2020

Show notes

In this episode, Joe interviews Joost Breeksema from the Netherlands to talk about the Interdisciplinary Conference on Psychedelic Research. In the show they cover topics on ICPR 2020, and the importance of accessibility.

3 Key Points:

The Interdisciplinary Conference on Psychedelic Research takes place April 24-26, 2020 in the Netherlands.
It's important to acknowledge the indigenous, ethical, and political dimensions to psychedelic use at conferences.
Although this conference will be catered toward mainstream science and research, personal experiences and stories are important too.

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Show Notes About Joost

Joost is a part of the OPEN Foundation
ICPR is a huge conference
- Nobody before was doing research on psychedelics in the Netherlands
William James work sparked Joost's interest in psychedelics

ICPR

Starting with the OPEN Foundation, the conference has been very scientific
- It is interdisciplinary, but also taken very seriously
- This field is so broad, you could really never get bored
Wade Davis, Alicia Danforth, Matt Johnson and more will be speaking at the conference
There will be over 80 speakers
Joost expects it to be a pretty international conference, half local, and half from abroad
Psychiatrists are usually short on time, and they like things compressed more
It's really easy and cheap to grow psilocybin as mushrooms or truffles
- Even in Mexico, they need to use GMP Psilocybin

Accessibility

"If this is going to be the treatment, how are we going to help people afford it?" - Joe
There is some tricky stuff happening, companies trying to patent different parts of psilocybin to use it for therapeutic use
Ketamine has been off patent for years, but you can develop a new route of administration, patent that, and make a ton of money
Spravato is making it to the UK

Conference Themes

Joost is both excited and scared that they are bringing indigenous practitioners to the conference
- It's important to acknowledge the indigenous, ethical, and political dimensions to psychedelic use
- Talking about concepts and approaches to healing is going to be an important aspect
- The goal would be to do research with the indigenous communities to be able to address the needs of psychedelic use
There are also a few neuroimaging people coming
For mainstream scientists, the conference has to be as close to a scientific conference as possible, they may be turned off to the cultural aspects of psychedelics
- It's the conservative nature of psychedelia
Joost also says that although the scientific research is important, it is really cool to hear the personal experiences
- Joe brings up a previous episode of a therapist and patient from the MDMA trials
- Stories are much more convincing than just data
People's experience with psychedelics may be completely different from each other
- It's important to share the bad stories with the good stories
- If we don't share the stories and data and research, then we can never learn
Joe hopes that there will be a growth of citizen science in the near future

Links

ICPR

About Joost

Joost Breeksema is a part of the OPEN Foundation, which from it came the Interdisciplinary Conference on Psychedelic Research. His current research focuses on the experiences of patients that are undergoing therapy assisted by psychedelic substances. His aim is to better understand psychological mechanisms of action/change, to tease out salient themes, and finally to learn about what works and what does not work in psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy.

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Hallie Rose and Kyle Buller - Soltara Healing Center and Kyle's Experience with the Plant Medicine Jan 28, 2020

Show notes

In this episode, Kyle invites a guest interviewer, Hallie Rose of the Thought Room Podcast, to interview him on his recent experience at Soltara. In the show, they talk about Soltara, Kyle's experience with the plant medicine, and important topics like privilege.

3 Key Points:

Eastern attendees have a different integration need than Western attendees. In the West, attendees come back to more hustle and bustle, more time is needed for integration. Soltara does a really good job at providing that time for integration.
With Psilocybin and other psychedelics, there is this one big door, you eat the mushrooms and open the door and get to experience it heavily. With Ayahuasca, there is a smaller doorway to penetrate through, you have to create a relationship with the medicine first.
If the people that really need the help can't even afford it, then how do we have mass healing? Peer support movements are a way forward in this issue.

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Show Notes About Hallie

Hallie interviewed Kyle after his first 4 experiences with Ayahuasca
Kyle's episode on The Thought Room Podcast about his Near Death Experience
The Thought Room Podcast was inspired by Hallie's first Ayahuasca experience
She had typically pushed away anything psychedelic in nature, even alcohol before coming to Soltara as a guest
- "A lot of the paradigms I had been working with were flipped upside down on their head" - Hallie
The message that really spoke to her was to create a podcast
- 2 ceremonies later she had some things come up about family and career, and again, the message 'podcast' came up again
- When she went over her integration notes from her experience at Soltara, she kept coming back to the podcast thing
- She describes her journal entry message as a black hole, a void
- She felt like she was in rooms, some were bright and rainbow-y, and others were dark and lonely
- The rooms were rooms for thoughts, thought rooms
She owns the start up company Lunar Wild

Soltara

Hallie mentions that she was blown away by the amount of effort that it takes to uphold a medicine center like Soltara
Kyle says right from the start from arrival to the location, he was greeted with such warmth and it reminded him of his breathwork background
- The ground rules that they laid down right at the start made him feel so safe
- She said it's amazing to see the amount of healing that happens in that space
- "When it comes to your own medicine work, your own journey work, only you know what's right for you" - Hallie
Hallie is part of a mastermind group through Aubrey Marcus, the CEO of Onnit
- She is connected to a bunch of people as a part of this group
- She was introduced to Dan Cleland, a co-founder of Soltara, who invited her to come down
Yes they had the traditional Shipibo aspects, but they also did a fantastic job of adding in the Western concepts to cater to the western needs
- Hallie mentions that coming from the West, we have the need to integrate the experience in a different way than those coming from the East, and Soltara does a really good job with that kind of integration

The First Session

Kyle said the tea was actually tasty
- You drink a lot of it where you override the system to where the body wants to purge
Kyle drank 5 cups of the tea over all the nights
The purging is to clear the system out of toxins and clean it out energetically
Soltara built in pre-ceremony sessions like yoga or meditation to help ease into the actual sessions
Kyle said that the Ayahuasca experience was familiar
- Everything felt very green behind his eyes
- There was a serpent weaving in and out of his DNA
- The experience felt so healing
- Kyle didn't purge (vomit) but did do a little crying
- He said he did not experience much anxiety
- The serpent was healing him and stitching parts of himself back together
- "There is something intelligent here working on very subtle levels" - Kyle
The next two ceremonies were very gentle, some crying, going through family dynamics, but always in the background, there was that same serpent
Kyle said the first 3 sessions felt really easy, compared to previous experiences with psychedelics
- The spirit said to him "oh you think this was going to be easy, that you would just drink this and that I would show you all this stuff. Well we have to get to know each other first"
- With Psilocybin, there is this one big door, you eat the mushrooms and open the door and get to experience it heavily, with Ayahuasca, there is a smaller doorway to penetrate through, you have to create a relationship with the medicine first

Final Ceremony

It was during the full moon in Cancer and lunar eclipse, the energy was already intense
For the 4th ceremony, Kyle was already feeling high energy, and did not want to go too strong, so he started with ¾ of a cup
- Kyle felt like he was sober, the medicine told him to ask for a second dose
- The facilitator gave Kyle ¼ of a cup more
- That ¼ of a cup really blasted him off
After the singing, he laid down and that's when things took off
- All of a sudden, he saw himself back in the CAT scan machine (referring back to his NDE as a teen)
- He always tells the story as blissful and beautiful, but this time was so different
- He saw himself back in the CAT scan machine as a child, and was terrified, and he began shaking
- He felt this pain in his pelvic area as he felt during his NDE
- He was shivering and so cold, it brought him right back into that state
- He was re-experiencing the fear in a new way during the ceremony
- He went into his body and felt the scar tissue and felt that shake and stretch and kind of brought in some healing there
- After his actual surgery/NDE, as he was healing he was always really afraid to move in certain ways in the fear that movement would re-open some of the healing wounds
He got a clear way of looking at how the body holds trauma, especially after surgery
- That trauma is tied to the way we hold ourselves, the way we walk and talk and in so many ways
- This ceremony helped Kyle view somatic body work in such a new light
The ceremony was not scary, he allowed his body to process the fear, but not attach to the fear and become fearful
Yoga can also bring that out, stillness and vulnerability can bring up some body trauma and put you into that fight or flight response
Even when you think you're done processing something, there are always more layers to dig into and see something differently to bring more clarity

Preparation

Hallie said what she is learning with this medicine, is that she doesn't need to make anything happen, she needs to just let it happen
- That feeling of relaxing things is scary because it means giving up control
- It's a practice and its a lot easier said than done
The most important part is the set (mindset), because the set is you
- "Having your set figured out, when the going gets tough, you're safe still" - Hallie
Kyle said that Aya always told him to wait, he didn't need to jump into trying it right away, he waited over 10 years to process his NDE trauma
- Hallie says it's just like marriage, you can get married easily, but it's not always going to work out if you don't have the tools and the skill sets to maintain it
- Ayahuasca is similar in needing the right tools and time to do it right
The dieta and the prep itself is so hard
People are turned off by the idea of doing something disciplined
- These experiences can be so much different when we go through the process of giving something up
- It's not to punish ourselves, it's to heal ourselves
- "There is a whole other side of us, that opens up when we cut out some of the things that numb us" - Hallie
- The dieta strips away the illusions, the plant medicines help us remember who we are

Hopi Creation Story

The great creator said "I have a gift for the human beings, but I need to hide it somewhere until they are ready to find it"
- It is "the gift of the knowing that they can create anything, they can create their own reality"
The creator asked the earth where he should hide it
- The eagle said he will bring it to the moon
- The fish said he will bring it to the bottom of the sea
- The buffalo said he will bring it to the edge of the plains
- The creator said no to all of them, they will find it there
So the great grandmother who lives in the breast of the earth said, put it inside of them
- And the creator said "it is done"
It brought Kyle back to his fourth ceremony, the Ayahuasca was a reminder that everything he needed was already inside of him

Privilege

It's hard to tell people of their only legal options for healing, which most of them are leaving the country, which is not an option for some people
- We are all worthy of finding relief of our suffering through psychedelics
Is therapy only going to be for the rich and elite? There are so many people who really need it
Yes, you can grow mushrooms, but then you're at risk of the law
The system is so complex and we need a more humane way of moving forward in this field and offer experiences like this to the people that need it
Therapy is a privilege
- Most people that need therapy are in survival mode that don't have the privilege of access to therapy
Peer support movements are a way forward in this issue
- If the people that really need the help can't even afford it, then how do we have mass healing?
- There are great healers out there that never became healers because they didn't have the privilege to
Kyle says he escaped a lot of suicidal ideation after his near death experience, it took a lot of time to call earth his home
"Just to wake up and be a part of this, even that is magical in itself" - Kyle
"The stars come out every night, and we watch television" - Hallie

Authentic Self

Hallie has recently had her 12th Ayahuasca experience
- "I am no longer breathing, I am being breathed" - Hallie
"Hatred does not exist, it is only a resistance to love" - Hallie
Even being hard on ourselves is only a resistance to loving ourselves
- Its love with nowhere to go
People that have a lot of self hatred toward their bodies or themselves, the medicine always comes back to the self, it teaches people to love and take care of themselves
- "You really can't love anything outside of yourself until you love yourself" - Hallie
- Kyle says that the people who he looks up to (ex, Stan Grof), what if they never showed up for themselfves? What if they never stood up for what they believe in?

Links

$200 off coupon code for Soltara: THOUGHTROOM

Soltara Healing Center

Hallie's Instagram

Thought Room Podcast

About Hallie

Hallie Rose is an author, speaker, educator, and relationship coach from New York City. She is the host of The Thought Room Podcast and also the founder & CEO of the company Lunar Wild which aims to reclaim the sacred feminine and address a modern need for a Rite of Passage into womanhood. The Thought Room is a combination of edge-of-your-seat storytelling and groundbreaking interviews with celebrated thought-leaders from around the world. The show covers a breadth of topics including psychology, spirituality, sex & relationships, psychedelic science & plant medicine, bio-hacking, fitness, nutrition, alternative health, business & entrepreneurship, mindfulness, yoga, and meditation.

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Daniel Greig - The Cognitive Continuum: From Insight to Enlightenment Jan 14, 2020

Show notes

In this episode, Kyle and Joe interview previous guest of the show, Daniel Greig. In the show, he goes in depth into the meaning of enlightenment and previews the new book he is writing with Dr. John Vervaeke, The Cognitive Continuum.

3 Key Points:

Insight, flow and mystical experiences are all facets of working toward enlightenment.
Enlightenment is really a fundamental grip on reality. It's about maintaining a relationship with the transcendent, it's not about just constantly escaping this body life.
The mystical experience is a glimpse at consciousness. The most important part of having a mystical (psychedelic) experience is coming back into our bodies and developing better relationships with ourselves, others and the world.

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Show Notes The Cognitive Continuum

There will be a crowdfunding campaign launched for the book
The book will be a combination of art and science
He is writing it with Dr. John Vervaeke
- Youtube - Awakening for the Meaning Crisis
The core of cognitive continuum is insight
There is also the flow state
There are also mystical states
Insight, flow and mystical experiences all have something to do with enlightenment
- If we can train people on how to access this cognitive continuum, they can become enlightened

Enlightenment

It is important to see the truth
- "How can we take our natural ability to attach to things, and learn to step back and care about the greater good?" - Daniel
Cognitive flexibility is important to understand the needs of the greater collective
- "Enlightenment means to apprehend truth and act in relation to truth" - Daniel
Mind does not equal brain

Gut Feeling

EGG - electro gastro grams
There is a singular resting state network between the brain and the stomach
- You're never really able to access this network, but when we have 'gut feelings' it's typically coming from neurons in your stomach
Being grounded in those sensations of the stomach is a huge part of problem solving and guidance in truths
We need to get back to 'feeling' something as actually meaning something

Mystical Experience

Enlightenment is really a fundamental grip on reality
It's about maintaining a relationship with the transcendent, it's not about just constantly escaping this body life
Daniel uses a lot of Roberto Unger's theories in his new book
There is the absolute reality and illusory reality
The mystical experience is a glimpse at consciousness
- The most important part of having a mystical experience is the coming back into our bodies, having better relationships with ourselves and others
Psychedelics don't do anything by just sitting there, they take a perceiver to matter and make a difference
- It's the person, the body, that really holds the power to embodiment

Psychedelics and Enlightenment

People say that psychedelics are a shortcut to enlightenment
- Daniel says that psychedelics can help take people out of depression style states
- A mystical experience can help you, but you're going to hit a plateau if you don't integrate and interpret these experiences
For those practicing a lot of psychedelic work, they should balance with body work like yoga
- There needs to be a balance in all practices in order to keep escalating toward enlightenment

Links

Website

About Daniel Greig

Daniel is an educator, organizer and artist living in Toronto. He studied Cognitive Science and Philosophy at the University of Toronto, specializing in wisdom, consciousness, and spiritual belief and experience. In 2015, he founded the Mapping the Mind conference that occurs annually in Toronto, which raises much needed funds for psychedelic research. Daniel regularly host lectures and workshops, on topics in cognitive science. He is currently writing a book with Dr. John Vervaeke on the science of enlightenment, which will be published in 2020. When not contemplating the realm of the intellect, Daniel delves in the sonic perturbations of music, writing and producing progressive metal.

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Chris Bache - LSD and the Mind of the Universe: Diamonds from Heaven Jan 07, 2020

Show notes

In this episode, Kyle and Joe interview Chris Bache, author of LSD and the Mind of the Universe. Chris went through 73 high dose LSD sessions and talks about his experience in the show.

3 Key Points:

Chris went through 73 high dose LSD sessions, but he says that pushing the edge of high dose and high frequency use brought on increasingly intense difficulties. He does not recommend high dose sessions like he did.
The mind of the universe is where someone goes when one completely dissolves.
In the show, they discuss psychedelic therapy and the debate on whether or not therapists should have to have psychedelic experience to do the therapy. Chris believes that the level of experience a therapist has had will impact the type of support they will be able to give.

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Show Notes Psychedelic Interest

It was at the time Chris had just finished grad school and was looking where to take his research as a university professor
He was introduced to the work of Stan Grof, and his book Realms of the Human Unconscious: Observations from LSD Research (Condor Books)
He was the professor of Religious Studies, sticking to his traditional life
He knew there would come a time for him to share his experiences with a larger audience
Chris says he's always been locked into his body and his physical experience
- He had no background in psychedelic states of consciousness

Protocol

He said you're always working with a sitter and same context/setting
As the dosage increased, he began creating a more intense music playlist
- Chris thinks music is very important for psychedelic sessions
Chris does not recommend working with high doses
"When you're working with opening consciousness that radically, music has a tremendous effect, it has an amplifying effect by 5 or 10x than doing it without music" - Chris
Chris said he has experienced all the common layers of the psychedelic unconscious that's talked about

Consciousness Levels

Chris experienced 4 different death/rebirths
Chris differentiated 5 levels of the universe
- The first is at the personal mind, where an ego death happens
- The second takes places at the collective mind, about species
- The third level is an archetypal mind, the high subtle mind, moving beyond the species existence
- The fourth level is causal mind, causal oneness, profound states of non-dual reality
- The last is Diamond Luminosity, its absolute clarity, pureness

Psychedelic Therapy

Chris says that there is a certain level of support that one needs to truly let go of themselves and let go to the experience
He says that he thinks the level of experience will impact the type of support a therapist will be able to give

Subtle Level

The mind of the universe is where someone goes when one completely dissolves
Pushing the edge of high dose, high frequency use brought on increasingly intense difficulties
Chris says he was very secret about his psychedelic use, his students didn't know about it
- But he said after he had gone deep and touched these different levels of consciousness, his students became alive
- The deeper he went in his own work, the more it touched the students at a deeper level

Potency

Chris thinks that LSD is a little cleaner than other psychedelics
- His basic sense is that psilocybin tends to be less evocative, disruptive
- Ayahuasca is more disruptive in opening up to deeper levels
- LSD is the most disruptive in opening people up to really deep levels of consciousness
- With LSD is was less about his personal experience, and more about the collective unconscious experience

Realizations

With one of his experiences, he had seen everything in his whole life all at once
He then entered into archetypal experiences, the platonic domain beyond the time-space reality
The beings he 'met' were as large as universes, responsible for creating time and space
He went into 'deep time', different magnitudes of time experiences in a broader frame of reference (where we are in the history of time, what our future looks like)
He reached that diamond luminosity level only 4 times out of all of his LSD sessions
"If we keep this up, sooner or later, the totality of this consciousness is going to wake up" - Chris
"We are moving toward a collective wake up, it's not a personal experience, it's a collective experience. An evolution of our species." -Chris
If Chris has one tip, is to let go of our fear of death, when we die, we go back home
After so many sessions, and not taking the time to stop to integrate, after years, his body was screaming for community, and he felt this deep existential sadness and felt as if he was just waiting to die
- It took 10 years to integrate his deep exploration, and to finally feel okay and comfortable again in his body suit and in this life
The universe is an infinite ocean of possibilities, we will never reach the end
"The collective psyche is being cosmically stimulated by the trauma that we are entering into" -Chris

Links

Articles

LSD and the Mind of the Universe: Diamonds from Heaven

Chrisbache.com - future website

About Chris

Christopher M. Bache is professor in the Department of Philosophy and Religious Studies at Youngstown State University where he taught for 33 years. He is also adjunct faculty at the California Institute of Integral Studies and a Fellow at the Institute of Noetic Sciences. An award-winning teacher, Chris' work explores the philosophical implications of non-ordinary states of consciousness, especially psychedelic states. Chris has written three books translated into six languages: Lifecycles - a study of reincarnation in light of contemporary consciousness research; Dark Night, Early Dawn - a pioneering work in psychedelic philosophy and collective consciousness; and The Living Classroom, an exploration of teaching and collective fields of consciousness. His new book is Diamonds from Heaven ~ LSD and the Mind of the Universe (2019).

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Peter H. Addy PhD - Salvia: Research and Therapeutic Use Dec 31, 2019

Show notes

In this episode, Joe interviews Dr. Peter Addy, Licensed Mental Health Counselor out of Washington. In the show, they talk about the research and therapeutic use of Salvia.

3 Key Points:

Salvinorin A is the active molecule that causes the psychedelic experiential reports, although there are at least a dozen unique compounds in the Salvia plant.
In a recreational setting, Salvia is usually smoked, but in the Mazatec culture, they do not smoke it, they use a sublingual method.
The clinical applications of Salvia are tricky right now. It's not easy to get funding for psychedelic research.

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Show Notes About Peter

Peter helped found the Yale Psychedelic Speaker Series
- The main goal was to normalize talking about psychedelic research as research
Peter joined the pharmacology lab for his post doctoral research on Salvia
- The team was mainly studying THC but were also studying Ketamine
- He wanted to bring in MDMA and Psilocybin research
Peter attended The Institute of Transpersonal Psychology
- As a psychologist, Peter focused heavily on feedback and experience

Transpersonal Psychology

It all started when Peter stumbled across a dusty book in the library as a Freshman, States of Consciousness by Charles Tart The book talked a lot about meditation
Joe says he has been practicing non-drug transpersonal states (breathwork) for years
You can have a psychedelic experience without drugs, and you can also take psychedelics and not have the psychedelic experience at all, it's not about the drug
- "Everyone has an innate desire towards transcending who they are, moving towards wholeness, and personal and societal transformation" - Peter
"If I'm kind, then people around me are more likely to be kind, it's about the transformation of groups and societies than about having a cool trick" - Peter

Salvia

"Psychedelic Assisted Psychotherapy is proven to do a lot of really good things, but it's not the only way and it's not necessarily the right way. There are wrong ways to do it, but not one culture owns this experience." - Peter
"Having a healthy critique of science in the modern world is helpful because its a series of provisional truths, it's a good tool to get closer to objective reality, but its not perfect, it's all we have so far" - Joe
Peter says that art is an amazing tool as well
- Verbal language is limiting, he has seen images that can convey an experience way better than words can
Salvinorin A is the active molecule that causes the psychedelic experiential reports
- There are at least a dozen unique compounds in the Salvia plant
There was going to be a bill to make Salvia illegal in 2008 or 2009
- Now it's just illegal for minors

Salvia Study

Peter recruited 30 people who had all used psychedelics
He used a controlled set, setting and intention
He used either a Salvia extract or just the unadulterated leaf
- No one in the real world is using Salvinorin A, they are smoking the leaf or using extracts of the leaf
The participants smoked it when they desired, Peter was not enforcing the smoking
- It was a very relaxed setting
Once the participants smoked, they then had an experience for 10 minutes, and then he came together with them and just listened to their experience
- 2 people got up and moved, the rest just sat there in the experience
Interoception (the inner feelings of your body) is the internal form of proprioception (the feeling of your body in space)
Every time you smoke something it is going to hit you quickly and be over quickly
- By the time you realize what's going on in a Salvia experience, you're already on your way out
- In the Mazatec culture, they do not smoke it, they use a sublingual method

Advice

The clinical applications of Salvia are tricky right now
It's not easy to get funding for psychedelic research
- Peter says if you do get funding, attach it to something else
- MDMA research didn't just begin to 'see what it could help', PTSD sucks, and there isn't a whole lot that works to treat it, but MDMA does and it just happens to be a type of psychedelic

Links

Website

About Peter

Peter is both a Licensed Mental Health Counselor in Washington and a Licensed Professional Counselor in Oregon. He earned a PhD in Clinical Psychology from Sofia University in 2011, including certification in biofeedback and Process Oriented Psychodrama. There, he studied non-ordinary states of consciousness, holistic and all-encompassing views of a person, and ways that these experiences can transform a person and society. Peter then engaged in post-degree specialty training at Danville State Hospital, Yale University School of Medicine, and the Connecticut Mental Health Center. As faculty at Yale University he engaged in research and training. Some of his clinical training is in mindfulness-based therapies, Motivational Interviewing, and Cognitive Behavioral Therapy. He also discovered a passion for data management and security which he brings with him to his online therapy practice.

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Rafael Lancelotta and Alan Kooi Davis - 5-MEO-DMT: Facilitation Harms, Oneness and Privilege Dec 24, 2019

Show notes

In today's episode, Joe visits Naropa in Boulder, CO to sit down with Rafael Lancelotta and Alan Kooi Davis. Alan is a Clinical Psychology Professor at Ohio State and Rafael is a legal Psychedelic Therapist operating out of Innate Path in Colorado.

3 Key Points:

Facilitation is a huge problem in the 5-MEO-DMT space. Some people take it without the intention of working on it afterward, they are commonly given too much, and also in a poor context. This recipe of poor facilitation and guidance leads to a lot of challenging experiences and a lot of integration work.
The feeling of oneness typically arises when taking 5-MEO-DMT. It can be great for some, but for others, it can be extremely overwhelming and harmful when not provided the correct intention, context and tools to work through it.
Privilege is a huge issue in the psychedelic space. The goal in this space is to make everyone's voice heard, not just those of privilege.

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Navigating Psychedelics

Show Notes Rafael

Rafael studied Mental Health Counseling at the University of Wyoming
He is currently at Innate Path in Lakewood, CO doing Ketamine and Cannabis assisted Psychotherapy

Alan

Alan is on the Faculty at John's Hopkins
He is a Clinical Psychologist
He is currently doing clinical research on psychoactive substances

5-MEO-DMT

It is a psychoactive substance that comes from the Sonoran Desert Toad
It's a fast acting and powerful psychedelic substance that is challenging to predict
- Some have amazing, beautiful and transcendent experiences, but it also has the ability to bring up challenging and dark things to deal with
It isn't as visual as other psychedelics, it has to deal a lot more with consciousness itself
"It may feel like being shot right into the center of love, or the center of the universe" - Alan
DMT can be more visual, while 5-MEO-DMT can be more spiritual, not that they can't dip into each other

5-MEO-DMT Harms

Alan did a talk on 5-MEO-DMT at Horizons
There are a lot of harms when using 5-MEO-DMT
Both Alan and Rafael have been contacted numerous times about looking for facilitators or about trying to integrate massive and difficult experiences
An ego death, in the right context, can be transformative, but in the wrong context, can be extremely harmful.
The facilitators are the problem
- If the facilitators are delivering the medicine in a shamanic practice, and the people using it are coming from a Western mindset, then with goals misaligned, there can be some major issues
- People have these grand, god-like experiences when using psychedelics, then feel like they need to become shamans and facilitate these experiences for others and have literally no clue or education on how to properly care for these people using the Toad
Joe says facilitators commonly overdose their users because the toad venom is hard to predict potency
Alan says that the fear response needs to be initiated when extracting the venom from the toad
- He thinks it can come up as a huge problem when using 5-MEO-DMT from a fear-stricken animal
- Alan says there is a lot of reports of feeling abducted by aliens, and it could be related to the fear response from the toad being hunted for its venom
- It's a similar concept to the traumatization of any other animal by the way it is killed and then eating the meat of that traumatized animal
On average, there is roughly 10-20% of 5-MEO-DMT in the venom

Oneness

When someone becomes 'one' with everything, it takes a lot of detailed integration
- When someone becomes 'one' with everything, that would also mean that they experience the suffering of everything around them
When the rational mind comes back online, if the person does not decide to take action, it can be seriously overwhelming to feel that oneness
- Integration has part to do with the experience but then the other part is everything before it, our family, relationships, job, our personality, etc.
- "Yeah its cool that we are one with the universe, but so is everything else" - Rafael

Power and Privilege

Privilege means having a voice, but it also means position in society, gender, race etc
In psychedelics, for so long, it has been so hard to find a voice
- But with this psychedelic renaissance, it has become so much easier to speak up about psychedelic use, research, etc
The people within the scientific community get put on a pedestal to speak about psychedelic research
Alan says his goal as someone in the middle of the research role, is to create community, to bring every voice to be heard
Being connected to psychedelics in anyway, used to mean prosecution
- There are still imbalances that need to be looked at
The psychedelic renaissance is a chance to look at systemic issues
We need to determine what our personal values are, and values of the whole community, and whether or not they are aligned

Final Thoughts

Alan says his goal is to continue having a voice and allowing others' voices to be heard in this space
Rafael says his goal is to make this therapy more available to those who can benefit from it and not just for the privileged

Links

Source Research Foundation

5 MEO DMT Forum

About Rafael Lancelotta

Rafael is a graduate from the University of Wyoming in Mental Health Counseling. He has worked as a wilderness therapy guide with adolescents and young adults experiencing a wide range of emotional and psychological challenges. He has also worked as a counselor at the Behavioral Health Services unit of a psychiatric hospital treating severe and persistent mental illness and medically supervised drug and alcohol detox. He has worked on several research projects studying the epidemiology of 5-MeO-DMT use in the global population and is also the administrator of 5meodmt.org, an online forum dedicated to hosting community discussions on harm reduction, integration, and safe practices around 5-MeO-DMT use. He is interested in the use of psychedelics paired with therapy for increased resiliency, mental health, and openness. He believes that the counseling relationship is essential to deepen, enhance, and actualize the benefits of psychedelic-assisted therapy. He is passionate about finding ways to make psychedelic-assisted therapies available to all those who may benefit from it as well as helping to raise awareness as to responsible clinical applications of psychedelics/entheogens.

About Alan Kooi Davis

Dr. Alan K Davis is an Assistant Professor of Social Work at The Ohio State University and an Adjunct Assistant Professor in the Psychedelic Research Unit at Johns Hopkins University. Dr. Davis's clinical experience includes working with people diagnosed with trauma-based psychological problems such as addiction, PTSD, depression, and anxiety. His clinical expertise includes providing evidenced-based treatments such as motivational interviewing, cognitive behavioral therapy, acceptance and commitment therapy, and psilocybin-assisted psychotherapy. Consistent with his clinical interests, his research interests and expertise focus on contributing to the knowledge of and ability to help those suffering with substance use and mental health problems, understanding how to improve clinical outcomes through examining new treatments, and developing ways to conceptualize substance use and mental health problems through a strengths-based approach.

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