Midrats

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Episode 719: NATO's Maritime North, with Dr. Sebastian Bruns Apr 14, 2025

Show notes

Returning for the full hour will be Dr. Sebastian Bruns.
Sebastian is a seapower expert and maritime strategist. His current project as Senior Researcher at the Institute for Security Policy Kiel University (ISPK) is “NATO Maritime Strategies and Naval Operations since 1985”, a multi-year effort to explore the Alliance’s maritime and naval roles between the late Cold War and today. Sebastian is the founder of the Kiel International Seapower Symposium (KISS), the Baltic Sea Strategy Forum (BSSF), the “Dreizack” young voices in maritime research workshop, and the ISPK Seapower publication series (NOMOS). From 2021-2022, Dr. Bruns served as the inaugural John McCain-Fulbright Distinguished Visiting Professor at the United States Naval Academy in Annapolis, Maryland, teaching Baltic Sea security and U.S. naval strategy to Midshipmen at the Political Science Department. He is a former Congressional staffer (then-Rep. Todd Young, IN-09), a fellow at the Royal Swedish Society of Naval Sciences, and a Non-Resident Fellow at the Royal Navy Strategic Studies Centre.
Showlinks

Summary
In this episode, Sal and Mark welcome Dr. Sebastian Bruhn to discuss the evolving security landscape in the Baltic Sea region, particularly in light of recent Russian activities. They explore NATO's response, the historical context of the Baltic, and the implications of the Kaliningrad exclave. The conversation also touches on the concept of the 'NATO lake', the challenges of gray zone tactics, and the future of naval cooperation and shipbuilding partnerships within NATO.
Takeaways

The Baltic Sea is experiencing increased military activity due to Russian threats.
Kaliningrad's strategic position poses significant risks to NATO operations.
The concept of the 'NATO lake' may lead to complacency in security measures.
Gray zone tactics are complicating maritime security in the Baltic.
NATO spending is increasing, particularly among Baltic nations.
Germany's naval capabilities are being modernized but remain limited.
Coast Guards are playing a crucial role in detaining shadow fleet vessels.
Transatlantic shipbuilding partnerships are becoming more important.
Historical context is vital for understanding current Baltic security dynamics.

Chapters
00:00: Introduction to NATO's Maritime North
03:40: The Baltic Sea: A Strategic Overview
10:04: Historical Context and Current Threats
18:38: Kaliningrad: A Geopolitical Challenge
21:27: Russian Military Capabilities in the Baltic
29:00: Gray Zone Tactics and Hybrid Warfare
29:27: Historical Context of Naval Warfare
31:40: NATO Spending and Defense Strategies
39:17: The Role of Coast Guards in Maritime Security
44:40: Bureaucracy and Naval Operations
48:03: International Collaboration in Shipbuilding
53:15: Maritime Domain Awareness and NATO's Role

Episode 718: March Free for All Mar 24, 2025

Show notes

Summary
Sal and Mark delve into the current state of the U.S. Navy, discussing the size and capabilities of the fleet, the challenges of operating as a two-ocean Navy, and the potential for utilizing alternative naval assets such as offshore supply vessels. They explore the ongoing debate between manned and unmanned aircraft. Discussed some of the lessons on how to turn around a military quickly using the transition from the 1970s malaise, to the Reagan Era victory in the Cold War. The discussion also touches on military leadership, morale, and the strategic importance of aircraft carriers in contemporary military operations.
Show Links

"Crash Fleet: An Emergency Shipbuilding Program”, by Lieutenant Commander Brian Adornato, USNR.
German army struggles to get Gen Z recruits ‘ready for war’, by Laura Pitel.

Takeaways

The U.S. Navy's fleet size is often overestimated.
The Navy operates as a two-ocean force, complicating logistics.
Alternative naval assets could enhance defense capabilities.
The future of naval warfare will involve a mix of manned and unmanned systems.
Aircraft carriers remain a cornerstone of naval power.

Chapters
00:00: Introduction and Overview of the Fleet Discussion
01:28: Analyzing the Current Size of the Navy
05:40: Challenges of a Two-Ocean Navy
07:48: Exploring Alternative Naval Platforms
11:58: Possible Role of Offshore Supply Vessels
14:47: Historical Context and Lessons Learned
18:20: Rethinking Naval Strategy and Resources
21:22: Utilizing Reserve Forces Effectively
25:02: Future of Aircraft Carriers and Naval Aviation
29:59: The Future of Manned vs. Unmanned Aircraft
34:38: Military Resource Allocation and Strategy
39:35: Generational Perspectives on Military Service in the post Vietnam recovery
44:39: Leadership and Military Morale

Episode 717: The Maritime State, with Ross Kennedy Mar 16, 2025

Show notes

The origin story of the United States of America begins, in no small part, with maritime trade issues. Most of the declared and many of the undeclared, wars our nation has fought can be traced to the safety of our maritime commerce and unfettered access to the open seas.
Look at any map, and you’ll see we have oceans to the east and west of us, between our nation and its markets, allies, and competitors on the world stage.Today we’re going to cast a wide net on that world view with returning guest, Ross Kennedy.
Ross is a logistics and trade expert who has worked at the intersection of global trade, supply chains, and national security for two decades in support of United States national interests and private-sector clients.
Summary
This conversation delves into the intricate relationship between maritime trade, national security, and the evolving policies under the new administration. Ross Kennedy, a logistics and trade expert, discusses the historical context of maritime commerce in the U.S., the challenges of reindustrialization, and the need for a coordinated approach among various stakeholders in the maritime sector. The dialogue emphasizes the importance of investing in domestic shipbuilding capabilities, addressing supply chain issues, and recognizing strategic choke points in global trade. Kennedy advocates for innovative funding mechanisms and a holistic strategy to revitalize the maritime industry and ensure national security.
Takeaways

The U.S. maritime industry is crucial for national security.
90% of global trade is conducted via maritime routes.
A coordinated approach among stakeholders is essential.
Reindustrialization requires long-term planning and investment.
Funding mechanisms must support small businesses in the maritime sector.
Disused shipyards can be revitalized for modern needs.
Strategic choke points are vital for U.S. interests.
Investing in domestic capabilities is a priority.
Healthy debate is necessary for effective policy-making.
The Arctic route poses significant geopolitical challenges.

Chapters
00:00: Introduction to Maritime Trade and National Security
02:46: The Impact of the New Administration on Maritime Policies
08:11: The Role of Stakeholders in Shipbuilding
13:58: Challenges in Maritime Infrastructure and Supply Chains
20:25: Innovative Approaches to Shipbuilding and Economic Zones
25:26: The Future of Maritime Commerce and Procurement Reform
27:16: Decoupling Funding from National Security
29:18: Investing in Domestic Capabilities
31:51: Reimagining Maritime Logistics
35:05: Reviving Disused Shipyards
38:30: Strategic Maritime Infrastructure
43:44: Choke Points and Global Trade
50:27: Closing Thoughts

Episode 716: Mid-March Melee Mar 10, 2025

Show notes

Having trouble keeping up with all the developments in the national security realm over the last two months?
Well, let not your heart be troubled, Sal & Mark are here for you this week with the ever-popular Midrats Melee format!
No guest this week for the podcast, just your two humble hosts, solving the world’s problems in 60-minutes.
Show Links

Rear Admiral William Daly, USN OPNAV N96 at Surface Navy Association’s annual symposium: quotes can be found at link 1 and link 2.
TRANSCOM’s purchase of used cargo ships.
Substack on medium USV.
Trump’s Gunboats, The National Interest, December 2016, by Claude Berube, and Mark Tempest.
Substack on The Ship’s Act, December 2024.

Summary
In this episode of MidRats, Sal and Mark discuss the current state of naval infrastructure and the bipartisan Ships Act aimed at revitalizing shipbuilding in the U.S. They explore leadership changes within the Navy, the importance of unmanned vessels, and the potential for optimism in naval operations. The conversation also touches on geopolitical concerns, particularly regarding the Ukraine conflict and North Korea's military developments, emphasizing the need for a robust maritime strategy.
Takeaways

The Ships Act has bipartisan support and aims to enhance naval infrastructure.
Leadership changes in the executive and legislative branchs could positively impact shipbuilding efforts.
There is optimism regarding the revitalization of the U.S. maritime industry.
Unmanned vessels are seen as a crucial component of future naval strategy.
Admiral Daly advocates for affordable and practical designs.
The maritime industry can provide significant economic benefits across the U.S.
The U.S. must adapt to lessons learned from the Ukraine conflict.
The importance of recapturing intellectual capital from former military personnel.

Sound Bites

"It's an exciting thing to see."
"We need hulls in the water."
"We need to keep the money flowing."

Chapters
00:00: Introduction
01:44: The Ships Act: A Bipartisan Initiative
09:11: Challenges in Shipbuilding and Maintenance
12:45: Historical Context: Lessons from WWII
16:38: The Need for New Vessels and Innovation
20:28: Admiral Daly's Vision for Unmanned Vessels
23:56: Utilizing Naval Reserves for Unmanned Operations
28:03: Conclusion and Future Directions
30:01: Navigating Military Transitions
32:57: Optimism in Maritime Strategy
36:49: Challenges in Global Security
39:05: The Syrian Crisis and Its Implications
45:30: North Korea's Military Developments
52:59: Lessons from the Ukraine Conflict

Episode 715: Securing Ukraine's Future Security, with Emma Ashford Mar 03, 2025

Show notes

A firm and lasting peace treaty, a ceasefire, in or out of NATO, in or out of the EU, European or international peacekeeping forces, an unending slog, or Russian tanks in downtown Kyiv?
What are the realistic…and unrealistic…options for Ukraine as they enter the 4th year of the Russo-Ukrainian War of 2022?Is the best path for Ukrainian security instead a new security architecture based on Ukrainian power itself?
How do you create a framework that could produce a realistic peace, while giving Ukraine a deterrence from future conflict?
Using her recent article in Foreign Affairs, Ukraine Must Guarantee Its Own Security, as a kicking off point for our conversation on these and related topics returning to Midrats will be Emma Ashford.
Emma is a senior fellow with the Reimagining US Grand Strategy program at the Stimson Center, and the author of First Among Equals: U.S. Foreign Policy for a Multipolar World, forthcoming from Yale University Press.
Showlink

Ukraine Must Guarantee Its Own Security

Summary
In this conversation, Sal, Mark, and Emma Ashford delve into the complexities of the Ukraine conflict, discussing historical agreements like the Budapest Memorandum, the implications of NATO membership, and the current geopolitical landscape. They explore the challenges of European defense strategies, the lessons from Finland's historical context, and the potential pathways to peace negotiations. The discussion emphasizes the need for Ukraine to build its own security capabilities while navigating the intricate dynamics of international relations.
Takeaways

The Budapest Memorandum's implications are still relevant today.
NATO membership remains a contentious issue for Ukraine.
European states have divergent threat perceptions affecting defense strategies.
The concept of 'Bluff and Pray' highlights European defense challenges.
Lessons from Finland's Winter War can inform Ukraine's strategy.
Ukraine must focus on internal capabilities for security.
The US presence in Europe influences European defense initiatives.
Negotiating peace involves complex territorial and sovereignty questions.
European defense production can align with Ukraine's needs.
The need for a unified European defense strategy is critical.

Chapters
00:00: Introduction and Context of the Ukraine Conflict
03:59: The Budapest Memorandum and Its Implications
06:41: NATO's Role and European Security Dynamics
11:55: European Military Capabilities and Collective Action Problems
18:25: Bluff and Pray: The Dilemma of European Deterrence
20:52: The Risks of European Military Engagement in Ukraine
28:10: NATO's Role in Ukraine's Security
32:45: Ukraine's Self-Defense and Historical Parallels
37:39: Models of Neutrality and Defense
40:20: European Defense Production and Cooperation
46:49: US Withdrawal Scenarios and European Responsibility
51:19: Negotiating Peace: Territory, Arms, and Finance

Episode 714: The New Administration and China, with Dean Cheng Feb 24, 2025

Show notes

In the first month of the new Trump Administration, much of the attention outside our borders has focused on Europe and the Middle East—the two regions that always seem to divert our focus from America’s greatest competitor, the People’s Republic of China (PRC). We often think of the challenge in terms of the most obvious arena—the Pacific—but it extends from the Arctic to Africa and, increasingly, to space.
Returning to Midrats this Sunday to discuss the PRC’s challenge for the new administration is Dean Cheng.Dean Cheng, Senior Advisor, United States Institute of Peace; Non-resident Senior Fellow, Potomac Institute for Policy Studies; Non-resident Fellow, George Washington University Space Policy Institute.
He recently retired after 13 years with the Heritage Foundation, where he was a senior research fellow on Chinese political and security affairs, and wrote on various aspects of Chinese foreign and defense policy.Prior to joining the Heritage Foundation, he was a senior analyst with the China Studies Division (previously, Project Asia) at CNA from 2001-2009. Before joining CNA, he was a senior analyst with Science Applications International Corporation (SAIC) from 1996-2001. From 1993-1995, he was an analyst with the US Congress’ Office of Technology Assessment in the International Security and Space Division, where he studied the Chinese defense industrial complex.He is the author of the book Cyber Dragon: Inside China’s Information Warfare and Cyber Operations (NY: Praeger Publishing, 2016), as well as a number of papers and book chapters examining various aspects of Chinese security affairs.
Show Links

Summary
In this conversation, Sal, Mark and Dean discuss the evolving global landscape with a focus on China's strategic ambitions in space, military capabilities, and economic strategies. They explore the implications of China's presence on the moon, its approach to international order, and the challenges posed by its cyber and nuclear capabilities. The discussion highlights the need for the U.S. to reassess its priorities in light of China's growing influence and the importance of strategic choices moving forward.
Takeaways

China is challenging the post-war international order established by the U.S.
The U.S. needs to focus on China's ambitions in space.
China's presence on the moon could redefine international norms.
The Chinese view of engagement differs significantly from the U.S. perspective.
China's cyber capabilities pose a significant threat to U.S. interests.
The evolution of China's nuclear deterrence is a growing concern.
China's demographic challenges may impact its long-term strategy.
The U.S. must prioritize its strategic choices in response to China.
China's economic espionage is a tool for technological advancement.
The need for a coherent U.S. strategy to counter China's influence is critical.

Chapters
00:00: Introduction and Context of the Trump Administration’s First Month
03:35: China's Global Challenge and Space Ambitions
08:44: The Implications of China's Space Strategy
17:33: China's Technological Advancements in Space
24:32: Chinese Military Strategy and Information Dominance
29:01: China's Strategic Maneuvers in the Pacific
31:56: Cultural Perspectives: Engagement vs. Cooperation
36:31: Cyber Warfare: China's Digital Strategies
39:38: China's Evolving Nuclear Deterrence
44:05: Demographic and Economic Challenges for China
47:44: Shifting Focus: U.S. Foreign Policy and China
51:57: Future Considerations: Prioritizing Global Threats

Episode 713: Seth Folsom's, Nothing Here Worth Dying For Feb 03, 2025

Show notes

Returning to Midrats this week to discuss his latest non-fiction novel is Seth W.B. Folsom, Colonel, USMC (Ret.).
From the Amazon page:
Nothing Here Worth Dying For tells the story of his command of Task Force Lion—a “purpose-built” combat advisor team—and his frenetic 2017 deployment to Iraq’s Al Anbar Province. Charged with the daunting task of advising, assisting, and enabling the Iraqi Security Forces in their fight against the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria, Folsom and his team of Marines and sailors struggled to support their Iraqi partners in the Jazeera Operations Command while simultaneously grappling with their own leadership for their relevance on the battlefield.…As with the author’s previous books, Nothing Here Worth Dying For focuses on individual Marine actions at the tactical and operational levels while also addressing regional events that contributed to the overall narrative of the U.S. war in Iraq. Folsom describes his unpopular decision to prioritize his team members and their mission to support the Iraqi army above the desires of his own military service branch. As the final operation against ISIS in western Al Anbar gained steam, he questioned the wisdom of the military leadership to which he had dedicated his entire adult life.
Showlinks

Summary
This conversation delves into the complexities of military operations in Iraq, focusing on the formation and challenges faced by Task Force Lion during the fight against ISIS. Colonel Seth Folsom shares insights on the cultural dynamics, logistical feats, and the intricate relationships between various military and coalition forces. The discussion highlights the sacrifices made by service members and the ongoing questions about the purpose and impact of their missions.
Takeaways

The rise of ISIS in 2014 prompted a swift military response.
Task Force Lion was formed from diverse units, creating unique challenges.
Cultural differences between U.S. and Iraqi forces impacted operations.
Logistical coordination was crucial for mission success.
The PMF played a significant role in the fight against ISIS.
Command structures were complex and often convoluted.
The importance of building a cohesive team was emphasized.
Leadership involved navigating various military and political dynamics.
Sacrifices made by service members were a central theme.
Reflections on the purpose of military engagement remain relevant.

Chapters
00:00: Introduction and Context of the Long War
02:56: The Rise of ISIS and Initial Responses
05:39: Building Task Force Lion
08:12: Challenges of Individual Augments
10:54: Mission Overview and Arrival in Iraq
13:49: The Complex Landscape of Iraqi Forces
16:12: The Role of PMF and Tribal Forces
19:09: Navigating Command Structures and Relationships
36:42: Challenges of Coalition Operations
39:59: Authority and Responsibility in Combat
40:54: Logistical Feats in a War Zone
45:19: The Complexity of Joint Operations
47:50: Cultural Differences in Military Operations
55:17: Reflections on Purpose and Sacrifice
Seth W. B. Folsom is a retired Marine Corps colonel who served more than twenty-eight years in uniform. Throughout the Global War on Terror, he deployed multiple times to Iraq and Afghanistan, where he commanded in combat at the company, battalion, and task force levels. A graduate of the University of Virginia, Naval Postgraduate School, and the Marine Corps War College, he is the author of “The Highway War: A Marine Company Commander in Iraq;” “In the Gray Area: A Marine Advisor Team at War;” “Where Youth and Laughter Go: With ‘the Cutting Edge in Afghanistan;” and “Nothing Here Worth Dying For: Task Force Lion in Iraq.” He, his family, and their needy, spoiled cat live in Southern California.

Episode 712: Condition of the Navy's Amphibious Fleet And Its Impacts on Marines: the View from GAO Jan 27, 2025

Show notes

Does the US Navy have the right number and mix of amphibious ships, and are those ships being properly maintained?
The Government Accountability Office’s (GAO) recent report to Congress explored this topic in depth, and today’s Midrats Podcast will delve into it further.
From the summary of the report:
Amphibious warfare ships are critical for Marine Corps missions, but the Navy has struggled to ensure they are available for operations and training. In some cases, ships in the amphibious fleet have not been available for years at a time. The Navy and Marine Corps are working to agree on a ship availability goal but have yet to complete a metrics-based analysis to support such a goal. Until the Navy completes this analysis, it risks jeopardizing its ability to align amphibious ship schedules with the Marine Corps units that deploy on them.
As of March 2024, half of the amphibious fleet is in poor condition and these ships are not on track to meet their expected service lives.
Our guests for the full hour to discuss the report and its implications will be two joint directors for the project, Shelby S. Oakley, Director, Contracting and National Security Acquisitions, and Diana Maurer Director, Defense Capabilities and Management at GAO.
Showlinks

Summary
The conversation delves into the critical state of the U.S. Navy's amphibious fleet, focusing on the challenges of ship maintenance, the role of the Government Accountability Office (GAO) in assessing fleet readiness, and the ongoing controversy between the Navy and Marine Corps regarding ship availability. The discussion highlights the importance of metrics, accountability, and transparency in addressing these issues, as well as the need for a cultural shift within the Navy to prioritize maintenance and resource allocation effectively.
Takeaways

Metrics and definitions of ship readiness need to be standardized.
Cultural and bureaucratic challenges hinder effective maintenance practices.
Accountability is essential for improving the Navy's operational readiness.
Budgeting for maintenance is often deprioritized in favor of new acquisitions.
Sailors are overworked and under-resourced, impacting their performance.
The Navy must address root causes of maintenance issues to improve fleet readiness.
Future leadership changes present an opportunity for reform in the Navy.

Chapters
00:00: Introduction and Context of the Discussion
02:03: Understanding the GAO's Role in National Security
09:35: Insights from the Fleet: Realities of Ship Maintenance
14:49: Defining Ship Availability and Readiness
18:15: The Need for Metrics and Accountability
22:22: Challenges in Navy Bureaucracy and Culture
30:04: Navigating Accountability in Navy Maintenance
33:02: The Consequences of Deferred Maintenance
36:53: Policy Challenges in Navy Maintenance
43:09: Budgeting for Maintenance vs. New Acquisitions
45:53: Cultural Attitudes Towards Manpower and Maintenance
49:15: Realistic Expectations in Maintenance Planning
54:34: Future Directions for Navy Reports and Accountability
Full Guest Bios
Ms. Oakley is a Director in the Government Accountability Office’s (GAO) Contracting and National Security Acquisitions team. In her role, she oversees GAO’s portfolio of work examining the most complex and expensive acquisitions within the federal government. Her portfolio includes Navy and Coast Guard Shipbuilding programs, DOD acquisition policy and oversight, and leading practices in product development. In addition, she is responsible for GAO’s annual work to assess the cost, schedule, and performance of DOD’s entire portfolio of major defense and middle-tier acquisition programs. Ms. Oakley previously served as a Director in GAO’s Natural Resources and Environment team where she led teams reviewing a range of nuclear security, policy, and nonproliferation related issues. From 2004 to 2015, Ms. Oakley led teams reviewing the activities of the National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA) with a focus on helping NASA improve its acquisition management practices. Her reviews covered key aspects of NASA’s operations, such as Space Shuttle workforce transition and sustainment of the International Space Station, as well as reviews of all major NASA systems including in-depth reviews of NASA’s human spaceflight programs and the James Webb Space Telescope. Ms. Oakley earned a Master’s Degree in Public Administration from the University of Pittsburgh’s Graduate School of Public and International Affairs and her Bachelor of Arts Degree from Washington and Jefferson College.
Ms. Maurer is a Director in the U.S. Government Accountability Office’s (GAO) Defense Capabilities and Management team, where she currently leads GAO’s independent oversight of sustainment and readiness across the military services and the Office of the Secretary of Defense. Her recent work includes reviews of F-35 sustainment, Air Force and Army force generation, Navy ship maintenance, missile defense sustainment, Space Force readiness, and the mission capability of military aviation and surface ships. She has testified three dozen times before Congressional committees on a variety of issues including the F-35, military readiness, Navy ship maintenance, national drug control policy, and several DHS and DOJ management issues.Ms. Maurer was a Director in GAO’s Homeland Security and Justice team from 2009-2017, where she led GAO’s oversight of the federal prison system; the Secret Service, FBI and other federal law enforcement agencies; and DHS’s efforts to build a unified department. She worked from 2008-2009 as an Acting Director in GAO’s Natural Resource and Environment team. From 1993-2007, Ms. Maurer worked in GAO’s International team, where she led reviews of a variety of international security issues including efforts to combat the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction. Ms. Maurer began her GAO career in 1990 in GAO’s Detroit Regional Office.
Ms. Maurer has an M.S. in national resource strategy from the National Defense University where she was recognized as a Distinguished Graduate of the Industrial College of the Armed Forces. Ms. Maurer also has an M.P.P in international public policy from the University of Michigan and a B.A. in international relations from Michigan State University.

Episode 711: The Defense Reformation, with Shyam Sankar Jan 19, 2025

Show notes

When a report has an opening like this, you know you have to find a way to get the author on Midrats.
As a nation, we are in an undeclared state of emergency.…This is a hot Cold War II. The West has empirically lost deterrence. We must respond to this emergency to regain it.
We have a peer adversary: China. “Near-Peer” is a shibboleth, a euphemism to avoid the embarrassment of acknowledging we have peers when we were once peerless.
That quote is from The Defense Reformation, written last October by Shyam Sankar the Chief Technology Officer for Palantir.
So many of the issues my cohost and I have been covering on Midrats the last decade and a half; personnel reform, Goldwater-Nichols, COCOM reform, the accretion encumbered acquisition program, and more are not just addressed in Sankar’s 18 Thesis, as I outlined in my Substack on it a few months ago, he provides solutions and new approaches.
Get a fresh cup of coffee, relax, and enjoy an impactful hour of conversation for those interested in reforming the US military towards a stronger, more responsive steward of our nation’s defense.
Summary
In this conversation, Sal, Mark, and Shyam Sankar discuss the need for innovation within the Department of Defense. They explore historical parallels, the importance of creativity, and the role a Silicon Valley mindset can have in national security. The discussion emphasizes the need for agility in budgeting, the impact of monopsony on procurement, and the significance of software in modern warfare. They also highlight the importance of founders and innovative thinking in driving change within the defense sector.
Takeaways

The historical context of the Reformation can inform modern defense strategies.
Creativity and innovation are essential for overcoming bureaucratic structures in defense.
Silicon Valley's involvement in defense technology is crucial for national security.
Lessons from the automotive industry can be applied to improve defense procurement.
Founders play a vital role in driving innovation and change in organizations.
People, processes, and policies must be aligned to optimize defense operations.
Monopsony in defense procurement limits competition and innovation.
Agility in budgeting is necessary to respond to changing defense needs.
Stockpiles are less important than the ability to produce weapons quickly.
Software is a key component in achieving asymmetric advantages in warfare.

Chapters
00:00: Introduction to Defense Reformation
03:21: Historical Context: The Reformation and Defense Reform
06:18: Creativity and Innovation in Defense
09:04: The Role of Silicon Valley in National Security
11:42: The Legacy of McNamara and Defense Management
14:30: Protecting Innovative Personalities in Defense
17:14: The Need for Modernization in Defense Policies
20:05: Monopsony in Defense Procurement
22:59: Encouraging Founders and Innovation in Defense
32:36: The Nature of Venture Capital and Innovation
33:08: Learning from Failure: The SpaceX Approach
34:21: Breaking Down Bureaucracy: The Need for Reinvention
36:24: Institutionalizing Rebellion: Encouraging Innovation
38:46: Leveraging Free Market Principles in Military Operations
41:06: The Role of Combatant Commanders in Defense Budgeting
43:09: Reassessing Cost-Plus Contracting in Defense
46:23: The Need for Agility in Budget Processes
49:11: The Importance of Production Over Stockpiles
52:58: Empowering Decision-Making in Military Leadership
57:41: Harnessing Software as a National Superpower

Episode 710: Affordable Approaches to Improve US and Allied Shipbuilding and Ship Repair with Michael Roberts & Bryan Clark Jan 13, 2025

Show notes

There is almost a cottage industry in appreciating the decades-long shortfall in America’s maritime industrial base for shipbuilding and repair.After more than a decade of self-delusion in labeling the People’s Republic of China (PRC) as merely a ‘Pacing Challenge’, people are increasingly waking up to the fact that the PRC has overtaken the USA in the maritime arena—a domain in which we were globally unchallenged since the end of WWII.
When considering both its vast commercial capacity and its development of the world’s largest navy, it is a fair argument to make that the maritime challenge posed by the PRC now eclipses the threat posed by the Soviet Union at its peak.
With time being short, are there solutions? There are, as outlined by our guests for today’s Midrats, Michael Roberts & Bryan Clark and their report Shoring Up the Foundation: Affordable Approaches to Improve US and Allied Shipbuilding and Ship Repair from The Hudson Institute.
Mike Roberts joined the Hudson Institute beginning in 2022. Before then Mike was the general counsel and a senior leader with Crowley Maritime, a top American shipping company, and president of the American Maritime Partnership. His focus is on commercial shipping and shipbuilding industries, and specifically, how fundamental changes in US maritime policies are needed to compete with China.
Bryan Clark is a senior fellow and director of the Center for Defense Concepts and Technology at Hudson Institute. He studies naval operations, cyber and electromagnetic warfare, autonomous systems, military competitions, and wargaming. He is a retired enlisted and officer submariner and his last job in the Navy was as Commander’s Action Group Director for the CNO.
Summary
This conversation delves into the pressing challenges facing the U.S. maritime industry, particularly the shipbuilding sector, in light of China's overwhelming shipbuilding capacity. The discussion highlights the need for affordable solutions, legislative support, and workforce development to revitalize the U.S. maritime industrial base. The guests, Mike Roberts and Bryan Clark, present their report from the Hudson Institute, which outlines actionable policies to enhance U.S. and allied shipping and ship repair capabilities. They emphasize the importance of a consistent demand signal from the government to stabilize the industry and attract skilled workers. The conversation delves into the challenges faced by the US Navy in maintaining maritime readiness and resilience in the face of potential conflicts, particularly with China. It discusses the need for a robust US-flagged shipping fleet, the implications of supply chain vulnerabilities, and the importance of leveraging allied shipbuilding capacities. The speakers emphasize the necessity of innovative shipbuilding strategies, improved maintenance practices, and a shift in mindset to prepare for future military operations effectively.
Takeaways

The U.S. maritime industrial base faces significant challenges.
China's shipbuilding capacity far exceeds that of the U.S.
Affordable solutions are necessary for immediate impact.
Legislative support is crucial for revitalizing shipbuilding.
Workforce development is essential for the shipbuilding industry.
The Ships for America Act aims to increase U.S. flag fleet.
Educational benefits can attract skilled workers to shipyards.
A consistent demand signal is vital for industry stability.
Shipbuilding is a low-margin business requiring government support.
Investment in workforce training is critical for future success. The US needs a sufficient number of ships to support major combat operations overseas.
China's control over global shipping assets poses a significant risk to US supply chains.
The US Navy's reliance on foreign-flagged ships may not be viable in wartime.
Innovative shipbuilding practices, including AI, can enhance Navy capabilities.
Improving ship repair readiness is crucial for fleet capacity by 2027.
The Navy must adapt its technical standards to facilitate faster shipbuilding.
Allied shipbuilding capacities can be leveraged to enhance US naval strength.
A consistent demand signal is necessary for ship repair yards to thrive.
The Navy's public shipyards require significant infrastructure upgrades.
A cultural shift within the Navy is essential to address current challenges.

Sound Bites

"China has 230 times the amount of shipbuilding capacity."
"The Navy is far from its readiness goals."
"We need to build capacity not just for peace but for war."
"We can build uncrewed vessels in many different places."
"We have to change the mindset we've been living with."

Chapters
00:00: Introduction to Maritime Challenges
03:11: The Shipbuilding Capacity Gap
06:04: Affordable Solutions for Shipbuilding
15:05: Legislative Support: Ships for America Act
17:29: Workforce Development in Shipbuilding
29:24: Long-term Stability in Shipbuilding Industry
34:10: Navigating Maritime Challenges and Supply Chain Resilience
41:07: Innovations in Shipbuilding and Maintenance Strategies
50:31: Leveraging Allied Shipbuilding and Repair Capacities
57:59: Preparing for Future Conflicts and Fleet Readiness

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