Listening to America

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#1725 Mesa Verde, Bears Ears and National Monuments Oct 12, 2026

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Host David Horton debriefs Clay on his recent cultural tour of the National Monuments of the Four Corners area. Clay teamed up with his friend Dr. Susan Ryan to visit Mesa Verde National Park, Bears Ears National Monument, and Canyon of the Ancients National Monument with a group of 20 participants from across the U.S. The goal was to explore the history and current status of America's National Monuments in the wake of President Trump's executive orders reducing the size of Bears Ears by more than 90%. Susan Ryan was an outstanding cultural tour lead, explaining how Southwestern archaeology is changing in the 21st century to show much greater respect for Indigenous communities. Clay performed as the 26th president, Theodore Roosevelt, and helped lead discussions of the 1906 Antiquities Act text and its several important ambiguities. This episode was recorded on October 9, 2025.

#1724 Great Censorship Legal Cases Oct 05, 2026

Show notes

Clay Jenkinson gives four or five lectures annually for the Smithsonian Associates. In his most recent talk, he analyzed three notorious 20th-century censorship cases, all involving books once regarded as obscene. First, the case against James Joyce's novel Ulysses, thought by some to be the greatest novel of the century, went to trial in 1933. Second, the trial of D.H. Lawrence's Lady Chatterley's Lover in 1960, banned in England not just for its explicit sex scenes, but because the adulterous affair was between an aristocratic woman and a mere working-class gardener. And finally, Allen Ginsberg's Beat Generation poem Howl, published by City Lights Bookstore in San Francisco, was tried in 1957. Each case was full of dramatic twists, irony, and humor, and in each case a judge or jury decided these amazing works of literature were not legally obscene. This episode was recorded on August 15, 2026.

#1723 On the Trail of Marco Polo Sep 27, 2026

Show notes

Author and explorer Denis Belliveau talks with Clay about his epic journey along the entire Silk Road in the footsteps of Marco Polo. Polo (ca. 1254-1324) traveled from Venice to the far end of China between 1271 and 1295 AD. He visited Kublai Khan in the legendary Xanadu. Denis Belliveau and his traveling companion, Francis O'Donnell, needed 70 visas to make the immense journey, none of it by airplane, much of it on foot, horse, camel, and such fortunate rides they could cadge along the way. They traveled with what Belliveau calls "reckless bravado and a lot of testosterone," through Turkey, Iran, Afghanistan, India, Tibet, and China, among other nations. They were, so far as anyone knows, the first people ever to retrace the entire Marco Polo journey. The result was a PBS documentary and excellent book, In the Footsteps of Marco Polo. You can also learn more at his website: In the Footsteps. This episode was recorded on April 8, 2026.

#1722 September 11, 25 Years Later Sep 21, 2026

Show notes

Host David Horton asks Clay Jenkinson what we have learned from the 9/11 attacks on the World Trade Center, the Pentagon, and all that has transpired since 2001. Clay offers six lessons — beware of overreacting; avoid endless wars that have little to do with the terror attack; keep your eye on the geopolitical ball and don't be distracted by temporary sex scandals; work harder to sustain the national unity that follows a catastrophe; Islam is not our enemy, and it is not the problem; and accept some responsibility for how American actions in the world frustrate and enrage others. Clay argues that America's isolation from Europe and the rest of the world has made us complacent about how our actions and policies inspire violent reactions. This episode was recorded on September 11, 2026.

#1721 Jefferson and Adams: A Fresh Interpretation Sep 14, 2026

Show notes

Clay's conversation with historian Jim Rasenberger, the author of "A Perfect Coincidence: The Extraordinary Friendship and Astonishing Deaths of John Adams and Thomas Jefferson." Jefferson and Adams collaborated on the Declaration of Independence in 1776, served together as diplomats in France for the United States in the 1780s, and cherished each other's friendship. Then the heated politics of their time came between them, until by 1800, they were enemies. Fortunately, they patched their friendship back together when they were safely retired from public life and died on the same day, the Fourth of July 1826, in lovely harmony, one in Virginia, the other in Massachusetts. This episode was recorded on May 22, 2026.

#1720 The Declaration of Independence: The Days After Adoption Sep 07, 2026

Show notes

Host David Horton interviews the third president of the United States, Thomas Jefferson, about the days and weeks following the Fourth of July 1776. How quickly did the printed texts of the Declaration circulate? What was the information network of the time that enabled most Americans to read the Declaration (or hear it read in public) within a few weeks? The final copy had to go to an engraver to become the beautiful presentation document we still revere today. At the time, the Founders did not know that the Declaration would become the most important document in the history of human liberty. Meanwhile, George Washington came very close to losing the war — and perhaps the independence movement — after getting bottled up by the British on Manhattan. This episode was recorded on August 14, 2026.

#1719 Reinventing America's Educational System Aug 31, 2026

Show notes

Clay interviews David Osborne, author of the 1992 bestseller Reinventing Government, about the challenges of the American public education system. How well are we preparing young people for the mid-21st century? Why is the United States slipping behind many other nations in educational metrics? David has spent the last few years focused on how we can reinvent public education. His new documentary film Turnaround: The Reinvention of the New Orleans Public Education System chronicles the astonishing success of charter schools in historically problematic school districts. How much does the survival of our republic depend on better schools for all Americans? This episode was recorded on April 27, 2026.

#1718 Clay's Summer Odyssey and Listener Mail Aug 24, 2026

Show notes

David Horton sits down with Clay Jenkinson to retrace a whirlwind summer of travel, history and adventure. Clay's journey began in May with a trek to ancient Troy and continued across the American West, following the trail of Theodore Roosevelt. Along the way came an unusual Independence Day in Italy, stops in Las Vegas and California, and a meandering journey along the Missouri River in the footsteps of Lewis and Clark.

Clay and David explore the history, surprises and memorable side trips that shaped the journey — and respond to questions and comments from listeners. This episode was recorded on August 6, 2026.

#1717 Optimism and American Success Aug 16, 2026

Show notes

Clay interviews Richard Battle of Texas about his series of books about the can-do spirit of America. Three of the books tell feel-good stories of character and gumption in the 18th, 19th, and 20th centuries. Mr. Battle believes that the current malaise in the American spirit is caused by a weak education system that fails to tell the story of how much America has achieved and against what odds. When we are tempted to criticize America, Mr. Battle asks, "compared to what?" What other country has as much freedom and opportunity as still exists in the United States? He regards George Washington as the greatest American for holding the independence movement together against nearly impossible odds. He forgives Jefferson for his failures in the larger context of his achievement in the Declaration of Independence. This episode was recorded on July 21, 2026.

#1716 Once More Down the River and Over the Mountains! Aug 09, 2026

Show notes

Guest host Russ Eagle and Clay talk about the annual Lewis and Clark Cultural tour, just ended, after three days on the White Cliffs section of the Missouri River in Montana and then three days up in the Bitterroot Mountains on the Lolo or Nez Perce Trail. Twenty guests from around the U.S. and the world joined us for Russ' 14th Lewis and Clark tour and Clay's 26th. The weather was perfect. The river was cool, refreshing, and powerful. Clay and Russ discuss Thomas Jefferson, Lewis and Clark, Native American history, and the status and future of America's public lands. Lewis and Clark crossed the continent between 1803 and 1806. The Expedition is the most famous of all American exploration stories until at least the Apollo Moon landing program of the 1960s. The Lewis and Clark Cultural Tour is physically strenuous. Still, everyone made it up the Wendover Death March, and we had a joyous farewell banquet at Lochsa Lodge west of Missoula. This episode was recorded on August 3, 2026.

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